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Hi everyone,
As the new JVC Autocal Software is available, I thought it would be useful to create a dedicated thread to collect here the best practice and calibration tips for this version of the software (V11/V12) and the new native 4K models.
IMPORTANT WARNING: using the Autocal software changes internal tables in the projector. The first time you use it and save a calibration, it will create a .INIT file that contains the calibration tables as they were when the PJ left the factory. This .init file is saved in the folder you have selected in the software settings. There is no way to re-create this .INIT file if you lose it or delete it, yet restoring this .INIT file is the only way to revert the PJ to its factory state (doing a factory reset in the service menu only restores user settings, not calibration tables). So please make sure that you back up this .INIT and keep the back-up copy in a safe place. Also, using any software means that things can go wrong. It's a software. There can be bugs. Updating the f/w to V2.01, which is necessary to use the latest version of the Autocal, should be done carefully as there are opportunities for things to go wrong during that process too. If you read further, you acknowledge these risks and agree that you are using the software at your own risk. Please don't blame me if anything goes wrong, especially if you have not made sure to keep your .init file safe, or read and followed JVC's instructions for the f/w update. If you don't feel comfortable with this, please don't use the Autocal software, or ask a competent calibrator to use it for you.
EDIT 10-09-19: a new f/w V3.10 has been released as well as a new Autocal V12 which adds support for the Spyder X. See links below, as well as a brief report here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14262#msg14262).
EDIT 17-12-19: more tests of the Spyder X with V12 (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg15159#msg15159), confirming that it shouldn't be used for color calibration. Otherwise V12 works fine and produces near reference results, much faster than V11.
I've added most recently some recommended settings and detailed brightness and contrast measurements, as well as calibration measurements and a first impression / mini review of my rs2000, all linked in the next post.
I've also added advice for preparation and calibration, as well as advanced tips and results. The whole basic section is completed.
You'll also find in the next post useful links to external resources or direct access to specific posts in this thread, either in the "reference" part (posts 2-29) or the body of the thread as it grows up. [Note: For now, only the links to posts with actual content are "live". I'll add the links as content is posted. Please refrain from asking questions about a [reserved] section until the initial content for the section has been posted. Thanks!]
I've tried to organize the information to make it easy for beginners to get started and for experienced users to get more advanced stuff. If you have any questions regarding calibrating the 2019 JVCs, please feel to ask in the thread, however...
IF YOU'RE STUCK WITH THE SOFTWARE, BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION IN THIS THREAD: please read the documentation linked below, as well as all of the Basic section, including the Troubleshooting/FAQ. Thanks!
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[NOTE: Under Construction, only the links with actual content are "live" for now]
GENERAL
Guidelines for participating to this thread (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg11491#msg11491)
JVC F/W V3.10 (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000/) (needed to use V12 of the Autocal software with Spyder X support) and previous f/w older versions with Spyder 5 support
JVC Autocal software V12 V1.0 (needs f/w 3.10) for Spyder X, or V11 for Spyder 5 and user manual download (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000_calibrationsoft.html), brief report here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14262#msg14262).
JVC RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 User Manual (http://www33.jvckenwood.com/pdfs/B5A-2809-0C.pdf)
Screen adjustment mode table (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/projector/screen/#nx9)
Cine4Home review of an old version with pictures showing meter placement and screenshots (http://www.cine4home.de/knowhow/JVC_DLA_X500_X700_X900_Autokalibrierung/JVC_X-Serie_Autokalibrierung_X500.htm)
JVC RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 Owners' Thread (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1894.0)
Unofficial/Experimental support for the xRite i1 display Pro (i1d3) in Autocal V11 (at your own risk!) [Link temporarily removed]
MINI-REVIEW
First Impressions on my rs2000 (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10384#msg10384)
Feedback to JVC / Suggested Improvements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10385#msg10385)
FOR ALL USERS
Basic: How does the JVC Autocal work? (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10386#msg10386)
Basic: Which Meter to use? (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10387#msg10387)
Basic: Recommended settings (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10388#msg10388)
Basic: Preparation (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10389#msg10389)
Basic: Calibration (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10390#msg10390)
Basic: Results and optional verification with another software (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10391#msg10391)
Basic: Troubleshooting/FAQ (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10392#msg10392)
Basic: JVC HDR Auto-Tonemapping feature (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10393#msg10393)
FOR EXPERIENCED USERS
Advanced: Main changes from previous versions (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10394#msg10394)
Advanced: Detailed Brightness Measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10395#msg10395)
Advanced: Detailed Contrast Measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10396#msg10396)
Advanced: Factory Color profile measurements
Advanced: Detailed pre/post measurements for SDR Rec-709 (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10398#msg10398)
Advanced: Detailed pre/post measurements for HDR BT-2020 (BT-2020 color profile, with filter) (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10399#msg10399)
Advanced: Detailed pre/post measurements for HDR BT-2020 (HDR colour profile, no filter) (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10400#msg10400)
Advanced: Detailed pre-post measurements for SDR DCI-P3 (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10401#msg10401)
Advanced: Checking a Spyder 5 for accuracy (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10402#msg10402)
Advanced: Correcting the Spyder's errors with a reference meter
Advanced: Using Custom Color profiles (and profiles to download)
Advanced: Manual Gamma Calibration (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10405#msg10405)
Advanced: Using Custom Gamma Curves
Advanced: Using a Vertex/Maestro and the JVC Macro feature
Advanced: Using a 3D LUT for Reference Calibration after the Autocal (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10408#msg10408)
Advanced: Reserved
Advanced: Reserved
Advanced: To Do List and Various Notes
In the thread:
Basic: How long should I wait before doing an Autocal? (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14286#msg14286)
Advanced: Meter profiling tips (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg13361#msg13361)
Advanced: Quick tips for madVR calibration in Calman (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14541#msg14541) (brief off topic)
Advanced: Any advantage in using profile off with the filter VS DCI-P3 or BT2020? (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14770#msg14770)
Advanced: Manual gamma calibration using Autocal and a third party software (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14303#msg14303)
Advanced: Additional thoughts on gamma autocal, Spyder X vs Spyder (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg16604#msg16604)
Advanced: How to access the service menu (caution, do at your own risk!) (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg17652#msg17652)
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This isn't a full review, just first impressions so that you don't think I only watch patterns and spit measurements :) .
I might update these initial thoughts once I've spent more time with the projector, and once a new f/w (expected in March) hopefully solves a few minor issues, especially regarding the dynamic iris.
The room
My (small) room is a fully dedicated room (bat loft, zero ambient light, fully black velvet/black carpet covered).
My (small) screen is a Carada BW 88" diag 16/9 (about 2m wide) with an effective nominal gain (1.3 advertised).
There is only one row, and my sitting distance is just above 1 screen width, at 2.10 meters.
The throw distance is 3.60m.
The projector is shelf mounted, at the moment below my old RS500, but I will soon swap them as the rs2000 is here to stay :)
When mounted in the upper shelf, the lens is aligned with the top of the screen height.
Horizontally, the lens isn't centered due to room constraints so I need a significant amount of vertical lens shift and some amount of horizontal shit.
The PJ was shipped double boxed, with a good amount of packing material between the OEM box and the outside box. The outer box was a bit bashed on one side, the internal box was a bit squashed in one corner, and the hard packing white material inside was cracked in a few places. So it looks like every single layer of protection did its job, and there was no cosmetic or internal damage to the projector. I have no doubt that the increased weight of the these models makes it more likely for the product to get damaged during transport. I hope that JVC will consider improving the packing material, especially when distributors/dealers don't use double boxing.
The unit is an RS2000 with a production date of January 2019. It came with the V1.20 f/w and had been QCed by JVC US.
Initial Inspection
The PJ is very good, but not perfect. I am not expecting a unicorn or a golden sample when I receive a production unit such as this one, I only expect no obvious defect that would significantly impact the actual performance and would be noticeable when watching actual content. I am especially sensitive to bright corners and dead/stuck pixels, because these are the most offensive defects that I see all the time once I've spotted them.
Convergence is good (less than one pixel across the screen) but not outstanding. I have less than half a pixel out vertically on red, even after one hour warm-up, on the lower half of the screen. I don't like using fine zone correction, so I only use pixel correction. One click on red make the unit fine for my standards. No visible issue on screen.
Focus uniformity is good, though not perfect. Again, completely acceptable. The lens is very sharp (sharper than my rs500).
Brightness uniformity is very good. I have one slight bright corner in the lower left, and an even slight one in the lower right. Invisible most of the time, except on fade to black, after a few seconds. Again, knowing how it can be on some units, I'm happy with this.
No white uniformity issue either.
Oh I forgot to say, no streaking, horizontal or vertical, at least none that I could see without looking for it, even with a 2% white pattern on a black screen.
Overall, this is a very good unit, even if it's not a golden sample. So nothing to complain about. It's a keeper! :)
Initial set-up
This model is easy to set-up. See my recommended settings for each kind of content. There is a bug in the DI (see below) so I watched most of the content with the DI disabled. The main thing to keep an eye out for is the brightness setting, that in my case raises the black floor and kills the on/off contrast with its default of zero. All my previous units were fine at zero (I use HDMI standard so video levels 16-235), I even had to raise it to +1 on the rs500. So make sure you check for this, I explain how in the recommended settings.
One of the most significant improvement from an ease-of-use point of view is the reduced HDMI sync times: they were as high as 15-20 seconds with the rs500, and they are down to 5-7 seconds with the rs2000, which is the same as my LG 4K monitor. I don't even think about it anymore, and that was one of my main issues with the rs500.
Calibration
I've posted very detailed calibration, brightness and contrast measurements in the advanced section. The calibration I used with MadVR was my DCI-P3 calibration (DCI custom profile using the P3 filter to get 99% of P3 gamut cover and 100% of P3 color volume, gamma 2.2, 6500K preset adjusted to D65 using my Discus profiled to my i1pro2). MadVR is able to discard the BT2020 container and deliver DCI-P3. This is not an option for consumer sources, as they can only deliver BT2020 (or rec-709), unless you use a VP such as the Radiance Pro. So you should use a BT2020 or HDR color profile in that case, as explained in the recommended settings.
Low lamp, iris fully open, I get a native contrast of around 30,000:1 and a dynamic contrast of around 175,000:1. Again you'll find detailed brightness and contrast measurements in the advanced section.
In low lamp, the use of the filter cuts 20%. In high lamp, it cuts only 10%. I'm very happy to use the filter in low lamp, but of course with a larger screen you might want to save brightness and use the HDR color profile instead of the BT2020 color profile.
After simply setting 100% to D65, I got a very good baseline from a gamut point of view, but not so great with the greyscale, especially in the low end (it was better without adjusting 100% white to D65). As I don't have the time at the moment to dive into the Autocal, or to run full 3D LUTs, I decided as the display tracks remarkably well to run just a Lightning LUT in Calman (around 10 minutes, only 101 points). This gave excellent results, near perfect greyscale, saturation, and colorchecker SG (average dE 0.6, max dE 1. 8) . Again, all the measurements are posted in the advanced section.
[Note for MadVR users, or those wondering why I use a gamma of 2.2 in a dedicated room, others please skip: MadVR expects a gamma target of 2.2 for it's LUT input, so that's what I use to make before/after measurements more easily comparable. But you can set the display gamma to any value, as long as you set the target for the LUT to 2.2. If you don't use a 3D LUT, you simply have to specify to MadVR which gamma/gamut the display is calibrated to, and provided it's accurate, madVR will deliver PQ, irrespective of the display baseline. So it shouldn't make any difference if you calibrate the display to 2.2 or 2.4, the results out of madVR should be the same, again as long as the display calibration is indeed tracking what you tell madVR it is. The output is PQ, which is absolute, not relative. The PQ result therefore looks like a 2.4 gamma in SDR, so perfect for my dedicated room.
Content watched
All the content I watched and on which I based these first impressions was HDR content from UHD Bluray, from my HTCP with madVR. This is the best source at the moment, and madVR's dynamic tonemapping is simply the best way to watch HDR content that I know of currently, especially for projectors. Even its live algo has made tremendous progress over the last few weeks, so I thought it would be the best way to evaluate the projector's potential. When I find the time, I will watch content from my UHD Bluray player and comment on the new JVC tonemapping, but that was not my priority as I wanted to share these first impression quickly. This was with madVR's latest test build.
I watched UHD Blurays that I am very familiar with, and have watched both on the JVC RS500 from the UB900, then using custom curves, then using MadVR. I had about 100nits recently in HDR (my rs500 had about 3000 hours on the clock). The rs2000, after calibration, has 120nits (around 40fL), which is nice but doesn't make a huge difference. Anything above 100nits (around 30fL) is great for properly tonemapped content, and can be very good even down to 60nits (20fL). Below that, it's still nice but you need *very* good tonemapping to get decent results, especially with darker scenes/titles.
Film content watched included clips Lucy, Pacific Rim, Mad Max Fury Road, John Wick 2, The Shallows, Mission Impossible - Fall Out, The Revenant, The Meg, and a few others.
I'll try to report on SDR and 3D when I find the time.
Overall impressions:
From every single aspect of picture performance (except native on/off and absolute black floor), this rs2000 is a very significant improvement.
The rs500 was a very good projector already, especially with custom curves and then madVR, but it's no match for the rs2000, even with the loss of on/off, except on fade to black.
When watching good 4K content from Lucy, or the imax sequences in MI, or about any of the films I listed above, the uptick is significant to very significant.
The increased native resolution is clearly visible at 1 screen width. There is a lot more detail, and the picture is much calmer. This is especially visible on scenes where there are fine textures (sand in the opening sequence from Mad Max for example). e-shift does a great job on the older models, at least on my rs5000, but there is bit of added "noise", especially when the film has a strong film grain, such as Mad Max or the 35mm sequences of MI: Fall Out. There, the sky, the clouds, the skin shows with a lot less added noise. We get the film grain (which I like) and only the film grain. This is for me a very significant improvement, and it was one of the few issues with the rs500. That's gone!
The drop in native contrast (from around 40,000:1 native on the rs5000 is this calibration to 30,000:1) isn't visible to me with most content, especially hHDR content, unless I'm watching star fields or a fade to black. There is a lot of contrast in the picture (I don't know if the ANSI contrast is increased or not, but it doesn't seem worse than on the rs500, that's for sure). For example, the scenes at the hotel in Lucy with the bad guys in dark suits and the very bright lights, or the opening sequence of John Wick 2, provide an amazing perceived contrast, and very deep, very inky black. Once we can use the DI, this gap should get even closer and improve the darker scenes.
The black bars are not inky black of course, but they were not with the rs500 either. I use manual masking on my 16/9 screen, as I shift the picture to the top of the screen and I place a single mask at the bottom (I have two, one for 2.35, one for 2.40 A/R). This definitely helps increase perceived contrast, but I did all my testing without this masking and the black bars were not objectionable.
Color looked fantastic, well saturated without excess, very natural. Again, a big uptick to my rs500, although I could only cover around 90% of P3 at 3,000 hours, so I couldn't compare with new.
Shadow detail was excellent, even with brightness at -2 for max contrast. It was improved further at -1, with a very minimal hit to black floor/contrast. After watching both, I prefer -2.
It's really the first time for me that I had this "looking through a window" feeling that owners of projectors that I can't justify buying keep mentioning. In many cases, breathtaking.
In fact, I quickly had to mute the sound when watching the clips, because watching these films, that I know very well, on this projector, made me want to watch them all over again. :)
My main issue with the rs2000 is the DI, which I use only on Auto2. It does produce less pumping (for example with opening/end credits), but there are two main problems with it:
1) There are still some gamma artifacts in tricky situations, such as the underground scenes in MI:Fall Out at around 00:05:57. The DI makes a real mess of the car headlights, turning them into big blotches, instead of the well-delineated outlines that you get without the DI.
2) There is a strong yellow tint caused by the DI when the picture comes out of black. This is very visible for example at the beginning of Mad Max Fury Road, after the Mad Max Logo when we cut to Furiosa's neck.
I'm sure the second issue is a bug that will be fixed by JVC (they are aware and apparently a new f/w should land next month).
For the first issue, if they can't resolve situations like the MI:Fallout, I would like to see an Auto 3 mode that would only have an effect on fade to black, be faster than auto 2 and would have zero gamma manipulation whatsoever. The current Auto 2 is much slower than on the rs500 (it takes around 4 seconds for it to close fully) and it doesn't close down as much, which means that the black floor remains quite high. For example, with the rs500, I could reach up to 500,000:1 dynamic contrast and more (calibrated to D65), but on the rs2000 the absolute maximum dynamic contrast I could measure is 235,000:1 in high bright (uncalibrated).
As with former models, there is no difference between auto1 and auto2 regarding contrast measurements, auto1 only has a more aggressive gamma manipulation. The ceiling is set with the manual iris, so doesn't change much between manual, auto1 and auto2. Auto only changes the black floor.
Conclusion
I did all the measurements first because apart from the need to have a calibrated picture, I know that if I start to watch content with a new projector (provided it's a good one!) I won't ever take the time to measure. This is exactly what happened with the rs2000!
I have kept my rs500 because I was thinking I could run a dual projector setup, with the rs500 for SDR rec-709 content and the rs2000 for 4K HDR content. Not going to happen. :) I'm going to keep the rs500 as a backup projector, possibly to tie me over in between projectors, but I don't plan to use it, even with SDR content. In low lamp, with the iris closed to -12 to get 60nits, and especially when we'll be able to use the dynamic iris on the rs2000, there is really no need to keep the rs500 active.
The rs2000 throws by far the best PQ I've seen in my cinema room. It's very film-like, has great contrast and looks significantly better than our local cinema (proving that size isn't everything).
So the rs500 going in semi-retirement, and I'm going to enjoy my rs2000 a lot. If you don't hear from me for a while, don't worry, that's because I'm watching movies!
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Here is a list of suggestions for future versions that would significantly improve the use of the software.
Feel free to contribute if you have any (reasonable) suggestion. I'll try to get this to JVCs through my contacts once we've gathered enough feedback.
- A better manual. The new manual for V11 is a bit more detailed, but it would be nice to have a technical reference manual with all the calibration tables in relation to settings, the aperture ranges that trigger a new color calibration, which settings (for example selecting a custom color profile) can prevent a gamma calibration, etc. There is still a lot of reverse engineering to do in order to fully understand the software and get the best results from it.
- A “complete projector recalibration” unattended mode that would measure all the modes, for all the various iris, lamp and filter options (as now CMD isn't a factor anymore) and recalibrate the whole projector with the minimum number of steps. The new “reflect to all” for gamma is a step in this direction, but it doesn’t cover all the color recalibrations. The software could stop a few times to adjust the meter position if necessary, for example for high lamp and low lamp, but it could be very useful, especially if the next suggestions were implemented, for those who want to be able to change the settings freely during use without risking to end up with a non-calibrated “zone”. Failing this, or in addition, a full recalibration of the current mode, that would automatically go through all the aperture/lamp settings and run a color calibration so that all possible settings are calibrated.
- Support for more meters. The i1pro2 and Spyder 5 are good, but it would be really useful to support the following meters (possibly through ArgyllCMS support, or using Lightspace remote control feature) :
- X-rite i1displayPro/C6 OEM, because they are very popular and users are more likely to already own one. Note that there is experimental unofficial support for this meter, as described here [link temporarily removed].
- Klein K10A for its speed & accuracy, and because it’s also very popular with Calibrators and enthusiasts.
- BasicCColor Discus because it’s an excellent colorimeter, very stable and reliable especially near black, and the only prosumer model between consumer models such as Spyder/i1display Pro/C6 and professional high-end reference meters such as the Klein K10a.
- The new Spyder X [added]
- Offering a way to provide a correction matrix for the Spyder 5 Pro/Elite or any other colorimeter supported in the future, so that those with access to another software and a reference meter can profile the Spyder 5 facing the lens to the reference meter facing the screen. This would make the “spreadsheet method” currently used to correct the errors of the Spyder 5 unnecessary, and would likely provide better results overall, significantly faster and with less hassle. Even better if the software could generate this matrix itself using the i1pro2 facing the screen, so we can use the Spyder 5 for everything including color/white point calibration, and not just for gamma when we have both meters.
- Better manual gamma calibration options. We need more than 11 control points in the gamma section of the software for an S-Curve or to make manual adjustments near black. 21 steps would be a minimum, 33 steps would be better. Also the gamma software should allow to enter a value directly in the box for each point so we don’t have to make all the changes with the very slow graphical interface. In fact it would be great to get the gamma controls back into the unit itself, as an alternative to the simplified 3-band controls. It’s really cumbersome to have to go into the software to make gamma adjustments. Finally it would be useful to have more than 3 custom gamma curves. 5 would be good, 10 would be great.
- The ability to save the Before and After logs. Currently they just scroll by as the calibration progresses with no provisions to scroll back.
Here are some less essential improvements that would help with calibration in general:
- Add BT2020 to the list of standard gamuts in the colour profile creation. We have Rec-709 and DCI, why not BT2020?
- Add a “profile off with filter” option in the models with a filter, so that users with a 3D LUT box can use the best baseline for a 3D LUT calibration. Best RGB separation is usually obtained with profile off, and at the moment profile off—which is the only option without internal processing—isn’t the widest gamut as there is no (easy) way to use it with the filter on the rs2000/rs3000.
- Offer a Rec-709-F (with filter) and a DCI-P3-NF (no filter). We already have a BT2020-F and a BT2020-NF (HDR) as factory profiles, but having factory options for the other gamut can be useful too.
- Implement an internal meter to measure peakY and automatically select the most appropriate PQ Gamma curve brightness adjustment, as well as taking meter placement out of the equation for the Autocal. This could also lead the way to Dolby Vision support. The meter would read peakY and they would calculate the targets, enabling Dolby Vision as long as no relevant setting is changed in the user preset (lamp mode, iris setting, zoom ratio, gains, etc) and the lamp doesn’t dim or drifts by more than x percent (a 100% white pattern could be measured regularly to validate the DV mode). If one of these happens (change of settings, bulb dimming), DV would be disabled until a new calibration is done, a new peakY measurement is made and DV is enabled again. That way, Dolby wouldn’t have to worry about user measurements or drifts/changes causing wrong results, and we could have a DV implementation in projectors.
- Detect black in HDR when the black level is raised in the content, so that the iris could close fully even when the content isn’t “black” from a stimulus/mastering point of view, but is still black from a director’s intention point of view.
- Make detecting and calibrating the i1pro2 less cumbersome. First, if the user doesn't know that they have to calibrate the meter, a "meter not detected" error is returned, which is very confusing. So the meter should be first be detected, then a request for a white calibration should be added in a next screen, before accessing the calibration settings. Ideally, you would also want to keep a timer, so that such a recalibration isn't requested every time we enter the calibration menu. It is very cumbersome to have to take the i1pro2 off its tripod to put it on the calibration plate, or to find a way to calibrate it while still on the tripod. Any way to minimize the number of times we have to do this during a session would be most welcome.
Here are a few improvements to the PJ f/w that would improve usability/performance:
- Allow the user to specify to which calibration / user mode they want to switch to for all content type, not just HDR10 and HLG. At the very least, we should be able to specify the SDR Rec-709 calibration (currently the PJ goes back to the last SDR calibration used, which is not useful if we use more than one). Selecting the calibration for SDR BT2020 and 3D would also be very useful. xvcolor probably less, but still relevant for a handful of titles. Currently we still need a HD Fury Vertex/Maestro or similar (if there is anything else that does this) to select all the modes that can be used according to content.
- Fix the yellow shift when using the DI, especially visible when coming out of black.
- Offer an "auto 3" mode for the dynamic iris that has no gamma manipulation whatsoever and only kicks in for fade to black. It should be faster than the current Auto 2 (which takes 4 seconds to fully close, less than two would be better) and close further, as much as possible, to reach deeper black levels.
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The software uses internal patterns in the projector and one or more meter(s) connected to a desktop/laptop (PC or Mac running Bootcamp or a Windows VM) using an ethernet connection.
I allows to calibrate gamma (gamma calibration) as well as white point and gamut primaries (color calibration). It also allows to create/import/export custom color profiles, save/restore user modes/settings, as well as to do manual gamma adjustments (12-points). It also creates a backup of the factory settings before saving the first calibration.
For a detailed description and before asking any question, please read the user manual (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000_calibrationsoft.html), as well as all the posts in the relevant section (BASIC or ADVANCED). The Cine4home review (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2Fknowhow%2FJVC_DLA_X500_X700_X900_Autokalibrierung%2FJVC_X-Serie_Autokalibrierung_X500.htm) of an old version of the software shows pictures of meter placement for the Spyder as well as screenshots that are for the most parts still applicable, although the user manual has up-to-date screenshots of course. This should help you to get the general idea.
All the details specific to the V11 for the 2019 models are covered in this thread, but I'm not going to repeat what's already in the manual, so reading it should really be the first step before going any further. :)
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If you want to use the JVC Autocal V11/V12, you can use two families of meters:
The Spyder 5 Pro/Elite/Express
If you want to buy one meter to do everything with the JVC Autocal at the lowest cost, that’s the meter to get. It's not perfect, but it provides great results for a limited investment.
Its strengths are a very wide range (it can read near black, I don't know the exact spec, and up to 10,000nits!) and a fairly good accuracy, although there is some unit to unit variation. This makes it the best tool (as far a JVC Autocal supported meters are concerned) for gamma calibration. It's normally used facing the lens of the projector.
Its weakness is that it’s not always super accurate from a color point of view, especially when reading off the lens, so it’s not the best meter to use for color (gamut+white point) calibration. Its color accuracy doesn't matter as much for gamma as three curves for Red, Green and Blue are run separately and it's mostly accurate for luminance. If you have an i1pro2, or can consider getting one, that’s a better tool for the job.
The Spyder 5 Pro (S5P100)/Elite (S5EL100) are the only models officially supported in this version, because they are the only two models in the Spyder 5 range with the environment sensor used by the environment feature of the Autocal software.
In my experience, the environment feature doesn’t yield any improvements in a fully dedicated, light controlled room. So if that’s your environment, you can safely buy a Spyder 5 Express (S5X100) and save some money. But if you have a white or colored living room, you might want to get the Spyder 5 Pro to see if you can get any benefit from that feature and let us know if it’s the case.
Apart from this environment sensor in the Pro/Elite, there is no difference in the hardware. All Spyder 5 models have a tripod mount thread, so they can all be used with the JVC Autocal. The only difference is the price, and the features enabled in the software package, which is entirely irrelevant for the JVC Autocal as you won’t use the Datacolor software. You only need the driver for the Spyder 5, which is present and identical for all the models.
There is no better quality in the meters themselves either, they seem to be as good (or as bad) irrespective of the model. I tested about 7 Spyder 5 (Express, Pro and Elite) and in the end I bought a 5 Pro as it measured very close to my i1pro2 off the screen.
Any Spyder 5 should take you 90% there. If you are concerned about the last 10%, you will usually have other meters and will use another calibration software, and we’ll discuss ways to correct the errors from the Spyder 5 to get near reference results.
My advice if you want to take the easy path is to get a Spyder 5 Express if you have a dedicated room or a Spyder 5 Pro if you want to be able to use/try all the features of the JVC Autocal. I don’t see any reason to buy the Spyder 5 Elite unless you want to use the Datacolor software and can see some features of interest that are only enabled with the Elite and not the Pro or Express.
As all colorimeters using non-glass filters, they can drift over time so I recommend to use a peli-case with dessicant to store them and protect them from humidity/temperature change between calibrations.
Here is some info on the range: https://www.datacolor.com/photography-design/product-overview/spyder5-family/ (https://www.datacolor.com/photography-design/product-overview/spyder5-family/)
Note that the Spyder 4 and older are NOT compatible with the JVC Autocal V11, hence can't be used to calibrate the native 4K models.
The Spyder X Pro / Elite is very similar to the 5 except that it's about twice as fast and it reads off the screen, not off the lens. No point in buying the Elite unless you want to use a feature locked in the Datacolor software, which the JVC Autocal doesn't care about. It's still not usable for color unless its accuracy has been confirmed by a trusted meter. An i1pro2 is still recommended for color calibration, but the Spyder X Pro is a nice upgrade over the 5 for gamma calibration. You need the f/w V3.10 and the Autocal V12 (see post #2 for links) to use the Spyder X. I posted a brief report here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14262#msg14262). See also the review by Tom Huffman (owner of Chromapure) here (https://www.chromapure.com/newgear-new.asp).
The EIZO E3X seems to be a much cheaper Spyder 5 clone, but user ENT has confirmed that it doesn't work (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg13881#msg13881) with the JVC Autocal (or Calman), so sadly it's not an option here.
The x-Rite i1Pro 2 (you only need the basic version for projector/display calibration use)
The i1pro 2 is a very good, semi-pro, near reference spectroradiometer. It’s average error shouldn’t be further away from reference than 1-3dE (max), which is very good for the price. That’s the meter I use to train my BasiCColor Discus when I use different calibration software to tweak a calibration or generate a 3D LUT, and the one I plan to use for color (gamut+white point) calibration with the Autocal. It is not to be confused with the x-Rite i1 Display Pro, a colorimeter also called i1d3, which is NOT compatible with the JVC Autocal.
There is no “recalibration” for i1pros, only “recertification”. Unless you use them for professional calibrations or suspect something is wrong with them, there is no need to recertify them, as they will come back exactly the same as they left, you will just have made x-Rite a bit wealthier. Unlike colorimeters using non-glass filters, they don’t drift.
The strength of the i1pro2 is gamut/color/white point correction. Its weakness is gamma calibration (especially in the low end), as they are not really reliable below 15% white when reading a typical SDR calibration of a JVC off the screen.
It's normally used facing the screen, which is an advantage as it can take the screen into consideration in the calibration. For this reason, JVC recommends to disable the Screen Adjust parameter in the projector after a color calibration with the i1pro2.
So ideally the i1Pro 2 should only be used for color (gamut/white point) calibration only, and the Spyder 5 should only be used for gamma calibration (preferably). If you only have an i1pro2 and want to use it as the sole meter, it’s possible to use tricks to get it to read gamma (I’ll explore some of them in other posts), but its limited range (0.2cd/m2 - 1200 cd/m2) makes it difficult to use in low light or facing the lens, even with diffuser.
It’s a great near reference meter and the best meter to use with the JVC Autocal to do a color calibration (gamut primaries + white point).
If you want to save some money, there are two alternatives to the i1pro2:
- The EFI ES-2000, a clone of the i1pro2, that apparently is detected as an i1pro2 by the Autocal Software and possibly by other calibration software, but can’t be used with x-Rite software for licensing reasons. I haven't tried it personally but others have confirmed it works (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg13724#msg13724).
- The older i1pro (preferably rev.B-D), that isn’t officially supported and has a smaller range (0.2-300nits). Still it can be used with the Autocal software, but I would only recommend it for a color calibration (gamut + white point), not for a gamma calibration. It also needs an initialization more often than the i1pro2, which makes it more annoying to use. See https://xritephoto.com/documents/literature/en/L7-518_i1PRO-i1PRO2_en.pdf (https://xritephoto.com/documents/literature/en/L7-518_i1PRO-i1PRO2_en.pdf) for the differences between the two versions.
Whichever meter you use, you need the OS or manufacturer's driver (Datacolor or X-rite) to be installed, not another third party (for example ArgyllCMS). Also, if the manufacturer's software loads a utility (Datacolor does), you have to prevent this from being loaded or it will conflict with the JVC Autocal when it tries to access the meter. Note that with recent versions of Windows it's not necessary to install the Datacolor software at all, as a generic Windows driver is used. A generic driver (2006) should also be loaded by windows for the i1pro2, and a more recent one (2009) can be installed by some software (Calman).
There is also experimental/unofficial support for the xRite i1 Display Pro (i1d3) if you feel adventurous (at your own risk!) [link temporarily removed].
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[PRELIMINARY, I'll update when I've had more time with the projector (and as others offer suggestions/corrections as well) and am hoping to post detailed measurements in the advanced section shortly. All measurements mentioned were either taken with my Discus trained to my i1pro2 or with my Minolta T10. My screen is a Carada BW 88" 16/9 with an effective nominal gain (1.3 advertised). Throw distance is 3.60m, which I believe is mid-throw. More details in the advanced section.]
Based on the initial measurements of my RS2000/NX7 (see detailed data in advanced section), here are the settings I would recommend OOTB for different type of content. My unit had f/w 1.20 installed. Note: If some of what I'm suggesting doesn't apply to the RS1000/NX5 or RS3000/NX9, please let me know (by PM or in the thread) and I'll correct/update. I haven't had the time to cross-check all options, but the below should apply to the RS3000 as well and hopefully to the RS1000 too, mostly. There is unit to unit variation, so YMMV of course.
Initial Set-up
I use HDMI Standard (and force it to 16-235) to be sure that it stays that way. I make sure that all my sources send video levels. You might prefer leaving this on auto.
I leave colorspace on auto, it's usually fairly reliable.
I left contrast to zero (I clip at 235), but at least my unit seems to be raising the black floor significantly with brightness at the default of 0, which wasn't the case on previous models in my experience. This might be an attempt by JVC to improve shadow detail, but it literally kills the native and dynamic contrast. I set it to -2 for all my contrast measurements, and shadow detail is still very good that way. I might move it to -1 for day to day use, as the hit on the black floor/contrast is minimal, and shadow detail (especially level 17/68) improves a bit. But the default of 0, at least on my unit, is a big no-no. Make sure you check for this on your unit!
To test for a raised black floor visually if you don't have a meter able to read black reliably: with the DI disabled (iris on manual), display a black pattern, press the "hide" button on the remote. If you see the black floor going down, it means that brightness is too high. Unhide, lower brightness one step at a time, and repeat, until you can't see a difference when switching between hide and unhide. It's much better, in my opinion (if that's the price to pay) to not resolve level 17/68, which should be just barely visible anyway, rather than to raise the black floor and kill native and dynamic contrast. But of course, it's up to you! :)
Quick notes for nVidia HTPC/MadVR users [others please skip]: the magenta bug present on the rs500 at 4K60 8bits in 385.28 and for all 8bits resolutions in all recent drivers including the latest is gone, which is great news. This means 8bits becomes usable, and leaving MadVR dither to 8bits might be a better option than forcing 12bits out because levels are still borked in 12bits with recent drivers. [EDIT 01/03/19: I found the reason for this: there is a bug in the new models that force YCC422 behind madVR's back when RGB 12bits is selected in the nVidia CP. The driver sends RGB 12bits, the JVC reports RGB 12bits, but in reality it's forcing YCC422. JVC knows about the bug, so hopefully they will fix it in an upcoming f/w update]. Also if you had custom refresh rates created with MadVR or CRU, they are most likely not going to be valid anymore. If you end up with a green screen with your HTPC, your projector isn't defective, this is why :) . Simply delete the custom refresh and the green screen will go away. I haven't had the time to recreate custom refresh modes or finetune settings for nVidia/MadVR, but when I do I'll try to post some advice in a MadVR section or thread, along with recommended settings for MadVR for HDR and SDR, both for playback and calibration, after the next public build of MadVR is released. In the meantime, please don't ask anything specifically about MadVR/nVidia in this thread or it will quickly become a mess and non HTPC/MadVR users will hate you. :) . There are other support threads for MadVR so please ask any questions there in the meantime.
In all modes:
I set all MPC values to zero and I switch all the CMD options to off (except in my Sports mode). This is a personal preference, but I haven't really tried the new CMD. I hear the Soap Opera Effect (that I personally dislike with film content) usually associated with CMD even on low is reduced, so I'll give it a try when I have more time. I haven't experienced the yellow tint (most likely gamma shift) reported by some when switching the DI on with these settings, so it might help if you are seeing these shifts. HDMI sync time is vastly improved over the older models (from more than 20 secs in my case to around 7 secs), so very happy with that very significant improvement. [EDIT: I did experience the yellow shift with the DI, and it's not caused by CMD options. JVC are working on a fix. Also some nasty artifacts can appear when using Motion Enhance, so my recommendation to keep that off along with CMD stands].
Regarding the DI, it still causes some gamma artifacts in scenes where I notice this with the rs500. For example, try Mission Impossible: Fallout Out and look at the car headlights in the scene starting at 00:05:57. Beware, not everyone notices these artifacts and some are happily using the DI with a fully open iris. Once seen, you can't unsee it, so please don't look for it if you're happy with the DI generally, there is nothing wrong with that. Apparently the DI is improved in others situations. It doesn't close down as far as on my rs500 and it's much slower (up to four seconds to fully close), so it doesn't pump as much on credits, but the downside is that the fade to black is not as good. I really hope that JVC will give us an Auto 3 setting with zero gamma manipulation (none whatsoever), and a DI that would only close as much as possible on fade to black, at least twice as fast as the current Auto 2 setting. I'll post detailed brightness and contrast measurements with/without the DI in the advanced section soon [EDIT: done].
The gamma artifacts (for those who notice them) are usually worse if the manual iris is fully open. That's the setting that gives the highest dynamic contrast. The closer the manual iris, the lower the multiplier, the less artifacts. This makes them more visible in HDR for example, as most will have a manual iris more open to play HDR content than to play SDR content. So the lower the manual iris settings, the less gamma (and pumping) artifacts.
I haven't had the time to do a full analysis of the dynamic iris, but if you see issues, try either switching the DI off, or try closing the iris further. In the rs500, there is no gamma artifact with the manual iris at -15, very few with the iris at -10, more with the iris at -5 and quite a lot with the iris fully open.
If you can use low lamp and fan noise/heat isn't an issue, it could be an option to use high lamp instead with a lower manual iris setting to reach the same peak brightness. This should not only reduce the DI gamma artifacts, it should also provide more native (but less dynamic) contrast. So experimenting with these options, if available, could help.
[EDIT 16-02-19: there seems to be a bug with the DI as it causes a yellow shift, especially noticeable when coming out of black. It wasn't visible with patterns, but it's definitely there with actual content, for example at the beginning of Mad Max Fury Road, when we fade in on Furiosa's neck. For this reason, I recommend to switch the DI off until this is fixed. JVC are aware of the issue and a new f/w is expected in March].
Again, if you don't see DI artifacts, don't start looking for them and enjoy the DI. But if you do, you know what to do. :)
Recommended settings for SDR Rec-709 HD content (Bluray, HD sat, etc):
You can simply select Natural, which is very close to reference, at least on my unit (see the measurements in the advanced section).
I prefer to have a separate mode for film and TV content, so I use Natural for TV (with CMD on low, that's my sports mode) and User 1 for film content. My HD Fury Maestro switches automatically between both (I'll post details on this in the HD Fury section later).
Whether you use Natural or a user mode, what you want is Rec-709, 6500K, in low or high lamp and with the manual iris setting that gives you the brightness that you want. Make sure the CMS is off. This should give you a gamut that tracks rec-709 very closely.
The cinema mode uses the P3 filter and kind of tracks DCI-P3 (so is not meant to be used with any consumer content). It doesn't track P3 as well as the DCI-P3 color profile though, so I wouldn't use it as it is. Film is of no interest if you're after reference. If you like either of these, feel free to use them of course. I might use the cinema slot for other content selecting rec-709/6500K (3D for example) to save a user mode, but I wouldn't use it as it is. Film is not usable as it doesn't offer any standard options, so it's a lost mode as far as I'm concerned.
To get 60-70nits in rec-709 / 6500K, I had the iris at -12 on my 88" diag 16/9 Carada BW (effective nominal gain). -13 only gave me 40-50nits, and I wanted some headroom for later calibration as I'll probably lose a bit later (with the Autocal and 3D LUT). As I get above 120nits in HDR (about twice as much), that's still a nice dynamic range improvement.
For gamma, I recommend selecting a 2.4 gamma (sadly 2.3 isn't an option, only 2.2, 2.4 and 2.6 are selectable). It would be great to have 2.3 and 2.5 as well, but the gamma picture tone control allows to get there easily. [EDIT: there are more gamma options if you select custom gamma, so that's a way to select 2.3 and 2.5]. I had to raise it to +3 to roughly get 2.4 over the range as gamma was a bit too high otherwise. Then if you want BT1886, you most probably need to raise dark gamma a few clicks (+3 here). On my unit, simply moving picture tone to +3 and dark gamma to +3 gave me a very decent BT1886 curve (see the advanced section for measurements). Results could be improved further with the Autocal (manually with the 12-point parametric controls or automatically) but the results were very good after a just a few clicks on the gamma controls. There is unit to unit variation, so the above is only for information. You can try without a meter, but most likely YMMV.
Recommended settings for 3D content:
You need to set either cinema mode or a user mode to rec-709 / 6500K. You can use any lamp/iris setting you want (I would suggest high lamp fully open with the DI on). I haven't done any test on 3D yet, so I won't make more specific recommendations until I find the time to do so or others I trust post their recommended 3D settings. I would suspect that setting CMD on low should work well especially for animation if you like that in 3D. I'll update this part when I find the time to test 3D.
Recommended settings for UHD Blurays doing the tonemapping internally and sending SDR BT2020 using the full dynamic range (UB820, Oppo 203/205, etc):
I recommend selecting a user mode (I use User Mode 2 for this) and selecting the BT2020 color profile (or the HDR color profile if your model doesn't have a P3 filter, such as the N5/RS1000), 6500K color temp, gamma 2.4, iris fully open in low or high lamp, and adjust tonemapping settings on the source. I haven't tested this myself yet, but that should give the most correct results. If you are brightness starved and are happy to sacrifice saturation to brightness (100% of P3 to around 85% on my unit) to avoid losing around 20% brightness with the P3 filter, you can select the HDR color profile instead. [Edit 16-02/19: it looks like in high lamp the filter only cuts 10% (15% gain from no filter), which might explain why the numbers are all over the place. I posted detailed measurements in the contrast section showing the delta for BT2020 and HDR in high lamp, iris open, both native and dynamic.]
Note: For older models such as the UB900, I would (off memory, I haven't re-tested this recently) recommend a peak white of no more than 100nits, because I think that's what these units do. They don't use the whole dynamic range of the display/projector like the UB820/Oppos, they simply map to standard HDR, so 100nits peak for flat panels.
Recommended settings for UHD Sources expecting the display to do the tonemapping (UHD Bluray players, mediaplayers sending HDR as HDR):
I recommend using the HDR10 factory mode, and selecting the BT2020 color profile (or the HDR color profile if your model doesn't have a P3 filter, such as the N5/RS1000), 6500K color temp, PQ gamma, iris fully open (best dynamic on/off) in low lamp or high lamp. If you don't use the DI and have some brightness in reserve, you might want to lower the manual iris setting to increase native on/off and lower the black floor. The BT2020 color profile track BT2020 container saturations very well, up to almost 75% of P3. It covers 99% of P3 on my unit, due to a very slight undersaturation on red. Green and blue fully meet their targets. Of course this will vary unit per unit.
As above, if you are brightness starved (or if your model doesn't have a P3 filter), selecting the HDR color profile will give you more brightness at the expense of saturation, and the saturations will still track very well up to around 85% of P3. After that, it will clip content. Note that I believe I'm on the low side regarding gamut cover with this unit. I would expect a typical unit to reach 100-105% of P3 with the filter and 85-90% without. We'll know more when more units are measured, but I guess this one is within specs.
There isn't much actual content at the edge of the P3 gamut currently. As saturations track BT2020 well both with the BT2020 and HDR color profiles, selecting HDR to gain brightness if you need it is a perfectly sound compromise. RS1000/NX5 owners shouldn't worry about the absence of filter, it's definitely not mandatory to get excellent results, on all models.
With the HDR color profile selected (BT2020 no filter) or on the RS1000/NX5, you should still be getting something midway between rec-709 and P3: rec-709 is around 70% of P3, HDR (no filter) is around 85% of P3, and BT2020 with the filter is close to 100% of P3, at least on my unit.
This being said, given that a wide color gamut is one of the benefits of HDR titles, I personally take all I can on the RS2000, thanks to my puny screen.
Also, as there is more and more content mastered to BT2020 and not P3, once there starts to be content beyond P3, more content will be clipped if HDR is selected.
So my advice is of course to use the HDR color profile if you can't get at least 50-75nits peak white in HDR with your current screen. I get 120nits (40fL) using BT2020 and with good tonemapping this is more than enough. In fact with good dynamic tonemapping, you can get excellent results even with only 50nits peak white in HDR.
On the other hand, if you're about to purchase a screen and want to future-proof your install, I would carefully think about its size and gain and discuss this with your installer before doing so in order to try, if you can, to get at least 75nits peak white with the filter enabled in HDR (so BT2020 color profile), and preferably around 100nits if at all possible. If bringing the seats closer is an option in your room, it might be preferable to getting the maximum screen size you can get in SDR and then have to hobble the HDR picture further than it could be. Or adding a DCR A-lens to get 35-38% more brightness using the full panel, if you don't already have one and can afford it, as the new JVCs now support it. :) .
For me a 20% hit on brightness [EDIT 16-02-19: in low lamp, it looks like the cut is only 10% in high lamp] is a price I'm very happy to pay, again with good tonemapping. Getting 50fL (150nits) peak brightness for HDR is not mandatory in my opinion, provided you are using a good (professional) calibration or dynamic tonemapping.
Those stating that 50fL is needed in HDR for projectors are either unable to calibrate the projector with good custom curves or are not familiar with what good tonemapping (especially dynamic) can do with 30fL, or even 20fL.
50fL is only needed to show shadow details with all titles if a good balance hasn't been found between brightness and highlights. It's certainly not mandatory.
For MadVR users [others please skip]:
I recommend using MadVR's pixel shader dynamic tonemapping with the JVC, as it is excellent. It provides better than HDR10+ results with HDR10 content, and will be available in the next public release of MadVR (at the moment it's only test builds in an experimental thread and there is no support there). If you do this, use the SDR BT2020 mode above and tell MadVR that your display is already calibrated to BT2020 and gamma 2.4.
If you use a MadVR 3D LUT to correct this even further, you have to use a gamma 2.2 target for the LUT (it doesn't matter what the target is on the display baseline, so feel free to use 2.4 to make it compatible with another source). Also in that case I recommend not using an SDR BT2020 LUT and targeting DCI-P3 instead to limit posterization issues. MadVR will tonemap to P3 (in fact simply discarding the BT2020 container in most cases). Again, please do *not* ask questions about MadVR in this thread. I will try to post detailed HDR calibration and playback settings for MadVR users after the next public build of MadVR is released. In the meantime, please use other MadVR support threads to ask questions.
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Based on my first attempts to use the V11 1.10 of the software and experience on previous versions, here is my advice for preparation. I'll update as others contribute and we get more experience on the process.
General
- Read the JVC Autocal manual (linked in post #2). :) It is actually fairly good, it covers the basics and I'm not going to repeat it or rephrase it.
- Make sure that you have upgraded the f/w of your PJ to v2.01 or later (linked in post #2). V1.10 of the Autocal software needs this f/w, and it's not recommended to use an earlier version of the software due to various bugs.
- If you have any problem, please read the FAQ/Troubleshooting (linked in post #2) before posting, as the most common problems and solutions are referenced there, and the list is regularly updated.
- Make sure that you select a folder in the JVC settings to easily find your calibration backups. Every time you save a calibration, the software produces a backup of the previous state.
- Whenever you save your first calibration, the software save a .INIT file that contains the factory state of the calibration tables for your projector. Restoring this .INIT file is the *only* way to revert the projector to that state. Restoring to factory settings in the service menu of the projector only restore user settings, it doesn't restore factory calibration tables. So please make sure that you back it up in a safe place, so that you can always revert to it if necessary. A new owner might also ask for it if/when you sell the projector later.
- If you're using the Spyder 5 for color calibration (gamut and white point), make sure that you *do* select the correct screen type in the JVC installation menu after calibration (see link in post #2 and the projector's user manual). The Spyder 5 reads off the lens, therefore it doesn't take the screen into account. If you don't select the correct screen type after the autocal, you will either have an inaccurate calibration if your screen isn't color neutral, or you will have to make more corrections than necessary after the autocal when using another meter, especially for the RGB balance, which will likely reduce your brightness at 100% white. Not somehting you want, especially for HDR.
- If you're using the i1pro2 for the color calibration, do *not* set the screen type after calibration, and leave it disabled, because the screen is already taken into account by the i1pro2, which should be facing the screen during the Autocal. Using the screen type in that case would make the calibration incorrect, as it would apply a double correction, which would again lead to unnecessary further corrections if using another software for fine-tuning after the Autocal.
- Make sure that the DI is disabled (the Autocal doesn't work with the DI, which is a good thing as you always want to disable the DI when calibrating).
- Any user settings apart from lamp mode, filter type (linked to the selected color profile) and iris aperture are not taken into account during calibration, but they are taken into account during the log, especially at the end. As a result, screen type, gains, offsets and gamma corrections are *not* taken into account during the autocal, but *are* applied during the log. Also, the Autocal always considers that the gamma reference is 2.2, so the green (target) line is always showing a 2.2 target. For these reasons, I highly recommend that you reset the gains/offsets in all cases before running the autocal, and select a 2.2 gamma for an SDR calibration. That way, you'll be able to see if, according to itself, the Spyder5 reads a good calibration or not. The post-cal gamma should be a straight white line covering the reference/target green line, and all the color temp readings should be very close to D65. If you use any settings that are different, you won't be able to know precisely if the calibration went well, and you will wonder why your post-cal gamma isn't following the green line, and/or why all the color temp readings are not at D65.
- As the autocal corrects all the gamma curves for the selected calibration (and all calibrations if you select the reflect to all option instead of individual), selecting a 2.2 gamma during calibration and selecting any other gamma after calibration is absolutely fine. You can also adjust gains/offsets with a better meter after calibration, once you've validated that the calibration is fine according to the meter used during it.
Meter(s) connection and positioning
- To connect the meters, make sure that the Spyder5 (recommended for gamma calibration) has its cover off (it splits in two and you have to take the cap off to reveal the lens, that has to face the projector). If you're using the i1pro2 (recommended for color calibration), make sure that it lies on its calibration plate when you select it. The software should detect it and do a white calibration after 10-20 seconds. Once the next screen shows up, you can take the i1pro2 off its plate and position it to read off the screen.
- When positioning the meter, you want the meter icon on the computer screen to be within the positioning box. For the Spyder 5, facing the PJ lens, this means that it should be to the right of the positioning box, in order to maximise dark readings. For the i1pro2 or the Spyder X facing the screen, this means that it should be to the left of the positioning box. Personally, I wasn't able to achieve this with the i1pro2 [positioning it within the box] or the Spyder X, so I suspect a bug. I therefore suggest you position the i1pro2 at your usual distance. For me, that's 2-3 feet from the screen for the i1pro2 when using full patterns (see pictures and advanced tips below). It's around 1-2 feet for the Spyder X.
- When positioning the Spyder 5 facing the PJ lens, you want the reflection from the Spyder lens to be slightly above or below the lens. With the Spyder 5, I prefer slightly above, but that might change. Make sure that you achieve this while also having the Spyder icon on screen to the right of the box, and the shadow on the screen at the centre. See pictures and advanced tips below.
- When positioning the Spyder X facing the screen, follow the instructions on the software for the ideal distance.
Advanced tips
If you use more than one meter for calibration, and another software to check results, I recommend the following:
- Make sure that your pattern generator (I use madTPG) is set to full screen patterns. The JVC Autocal software uses full screen patterns, and I've noticed that if you use smaller patterns it's more difficult to get results to match between the autocal and the external software.
- Make sure that all the meters read the same area of the screen, so that any white/grey uniformity issue doesn't impact the readings. To achieve this, I first select the smallest possible pattern (2% for me) and use the aiming led of the Discus to position the Discus so that it reads the center of the pattern, hence the centre of the screen. Then I disable the LED and position the i1pro2 so that it reads the highest value, still using the smallest pattern. This makes the i1pro2 reading an area fairly similar to the Discus, at the centre of the screen. Finally, re-enable the aiming LED and I position the Spyder 5 so that the centre of its shadow covers the dot of the aiming light from the Discus. Once that's done, I disable the aiming LED and go back to full screen patterns. That way, I'm sure that all the meters read roughly the same area at the centre of the screen/lens, which makes it easier to compare results accurately between meters/software.
- I used to match the FOV (field of view) of the meters and have the Discus at two feet and the i1pro2 at three feet from the screen. Now that I use full screen patterns and follow this procedure, I don't bother anymore and I put both on the same tripod, which makes the set-up much easier/faster.
- I always create a new profile (I train the Discus to the i1pro2) at the beginning of a calibration unless it's a casual session, and I have a separate profile for each calibration, because there are significant differences for example when the filter is on or not, or when the lamp is high or low. I therefore have six meter profiles for the Discus: SDR rec-709 (low lamp, no filter), SDR BT2020 Low (P3 filter, low lamp), SDR BT2020 High (P3 filter, high lamp), SDR HDR low (no filter, low lamp) SDR HDR High (no filter, high lamp), and 3D (Discus without the glasses profiled to the i1pro2 with the glasses, which improves both the accuracy and reliability of the readings). You can train your meter without the glasses to itself with the glasses if you don't have a reference meter, it should greatly improve your results. Note that the Autocal doesn't support 3D calibration.
- When profiling the Discus to the i1pro2, I use a trick to maximise the reliability/accuracy of the profile that can be applied to other meters. Before making the profile, I first enable the low light handler in the i1pro2 and set the trigger to 500nits, so that it's active for all measurements. It slows it down but it averages 10-30 readings for each measurement. I set the number of readings to the max of 30 samples. I do the same with the Discus and set it to high average and long integration exposure, which is its slower but most accurate mode, especially in low light, but it also helps with repeatability at high IREs on the JVCs. I then create the profile with both meters in their most accurate mode, which almost guarantees a valid profile. If you're struggling to get good readings, especially on blue or red from the i1pro2, try to open the iris fully, and possibly zoom the screen to a lower size for the profile generation. This will maximize brightness for the readings without making the matrix invalid. Once the profiling is done, I set both meters to their fast mode and I usually only use the Discus which is significantly faster, and far more reliable below 20% white. The only time when I set it to its slower mode is when reading black with the DI on, or when trying to get a stable reading over 75% white.
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Assuming you've followed the preparation section above (hence have read the JVC Autocal manual linked in post #2 :) ), here are my main tips for the calibration process itself:
The tl;dnr version (when all goes well)
- Select in the projector the user or factory mode you want to calibrate (SDR Rec-709, HDR10, etc)
- Select in the software the type of calibration you want to run in settings (rightmost option in the main menu) as well as the number of steps for the gamma calibration.
- Select the calibration option (leftmost option in the main menu)
- Position the meter so that you maximise readings (see post above for details)
- Run the autocal
- Check the results
- Go back to 1 and repeat for each type of calibration (gamma, color if you didn't choose gamma+color, for example because you use a different meter for each) and for each user or factory mode that you want to calibrate
- If all went well and all looks good, enjoy your calibrated projector!
- Otherwise, please read below as well as the FAQ/Troubleshooting section (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10392#msg10392).
- If you're still stuck, post in the thread...
General Tips (if you get stuck with plan A above, or would like to understand better/optimize the process)
- Each calibration normally applies to all the user modes / presets using the same lamp and filter settings (for gamma) and lamp/filter/iris settings (for color) as those selected during the calibration. With previous versions, the CMD setting also made a difference, but it's not the case anymore. The filter setting is determined by the user mode and color profile selected.
- For color calibration (gamut and white point), the iris settings are split in ranges. I haven't had the time to check yet with the new models/new software, but with older models you would cover all the ranges (if you wanted to) with four color calibrations with iris settings of 0, -4, -8 and -12. I used 0, -5, -10 and -15 as it was easier to remember and would calibrate the extreme points of the range, which is useful for calibrated brightness and contrast measurements.
- When you run a gamma autocal, it applies to all the gamma curves for this calibration and all the calibrations sharing the same filter/lamp setting if you select the "individual" setting (see the option at lower right of the first attached picture). If you select "reflect to all", it will apply to all the gamma curves across all calibrations. "Individual" is more accurate for a specific calibration and makes sure you don't touch the gamma calibration for other calibrations sharing different filter/lamp settings, while "reflect to all" allows you to do a single gamma calibration and correct all the tables, at the expense of accuracy for the other calibrations.
- When you run a color autocal, it applies to all the calibrations using the same iris range, filter and lamp settings. This means that all the color temp presets (6500K, 7500K, etc.) are corrected with one single color autocal.
- The old way (which is still preferable if you want to be able to change all the settings freely and still get a calibrated picture) is to calibrate gamma for all the filter/lamp combinations, and to calibrate color for the four ranges in each of the filter/lamp combinations. That was doable when we only had an SDR calibration, but now with HDR, SDR BT2020 etc, I find this entirely unmanageable. I also think it's a complete waste of time, given that if you care about accuracy, you'll have to do the whole thing again in 200-500 hours, when the calibrations will have shifted due to gamma droop and other niceties.
- For this reason, what I suggest is to only calibrate the modes you are actually using, at the settings you are actually using. You will gain accuracy, and you will save a lot of time. In order to do this, I first set each user mode so that I get a little bit more brightness than I'm targeting, as it's not unusual to lose brightness after a calibration. I select around 60nits for my SDR calibration (that's iris -12, low lamp here), and I decide if I want to use the filter or not, and to use low lamp or high lamp for my HDR10 and SDR BT2020 calibration. I also decide if I want to privilege contrast or brightness to decide on the iris setting. You'll find my advice regarding this in the recommended settings (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10388#msg10388). I end up with three main calibrations: SDR Rec-709 (user1, rec-709 color profile, gamma 2.4, low lamp, no filter, iris -12), SDR BT2020 (user2, BT2020 color profile, gamma 2.4, low lamp, with filter, iris 0) and HDR10 (user 4, BT2020 color profile, PQ gamma, low lamp, with filter, iris 0). I also use an SDR DCI-P3 calibration for madVR (user 3, DCI-P3 color profile, gamma 2.2, low lamp, with filter, iris 0).
- I recommend choosing user modes to hold your calibrations whenever you can because they give you the widest possible choice of color profiles. Each factory mode has its own, limited subset, so all factory modes can't be used for all calibrations.
- As you can see, I only need to run one gamma autocal for the SDR BT2020, the SDR-DCI-P3 and the HDR10 calibrations, as the only difference is the gamma curve or the color profile. All three use the same filter and lamp settings. Because they also use the same iris setting (fully open), it means that a single color calibration will also be enough. This means that with two gamma autocals (without filter, low lamp for rec-709, with filter, low lamp for all the other calibrations) and two color autocals (-12 for SDR rec-709, iris open for all the others), I cover all my needs, except 3D that has to be done manually.
- There is no need to re-run an unnecessary gamma or color autocal in a different user or factory mode that shares the same settings re lamp, filter and iris, because you will simply erase the previous calibration.
- For this reason, I usually try to start a session with my least important calibration (SDR rec-709, gamma then color), and I end it with my most important one (SDR DCI-P3, gamma then color). I know that all my calibrations should be done, but I'm sure that my most important one has not been erased if I got it wrong :).
- Before doing any calibration, you need to let the PJ warm up for at least 30 minutes. See the link in post #2 that explains why. Otherwise, you won't get repeatable results. You should also let the PJ warm up for at least 15 minutes before any critical viewing, and 30 minutes is preferred too.
- If you change the lamp mode (or select a calibration with a different lamp setting) at any point during a calibration session, you need to wait at least 10-15 minutes for the lamp to stabilize. This is true in both directions (low to high or high to low). If you don't do this, again results won't be repeatable or optimal. For this reason, it is recommended to do all the low lamp calibrations in the same session, make manual adjustments and verifications, then switch to high lamp, wait for 10-15min and do all the high lamp calibrations (or vice versa). Otherwise you'll either waste a lot of time, or you'll get inaccurate/unrepeatable results.
- Once you have selected the calibration/user mode you want to autocal and have launched the Autocal software, make sure that you don't use the remote control but only use the software to change modes or settings, or you'll run into issues.
- If you decide to run more than one color autocal for different iris positions, I suggest you do the gamma autocal with the iris in the most open position first. That way, you will maximise the low end readings and should be able to do all the color autocals without having to reposition the meter.
- If at any point you move the meter, you have to make sure that it is still positioned optimally in the box on screen.
- Similarly, if you change calibration mode and if that means a different lamp, filter or iris setting is applied, you probably have to move the meter to make sure that it is still optimally positioned, so you will have to go back to the meter positioning screen.
- Make sure the DI is off. The autocal doesn't work when the dynamic iris is enabled.
- You can safely ignore the screen size and viewing distance parameters, unless you use the environment settings described P.16 of the manual, which are supposed to be useful in a non dedicated living room (white walls, reflections, etc). I never got good results with these in a bat cave, probably because they are not needed. I never use them, so I can't recommend using them. However, I don't recommend against using them, as I heard that some people got good results, so feel free to experiment and report, especially if you have a non-dedicated room. Note that they require a Spyder 5 Pro or Elite. Although I do have a Pro, the Express is much cheaper (usually) and works just as well, as long as you don't plan to use the environment settings.
During calibration
- I recommend to use the 33 steps settings for gamma with the Spyder 5 if you have the time. If this causes issues near black, then select a setting with less calibration points.
- I recommend choosing gamma 2.2 (individual) and 6500K for the autocal, and I usually leave these with the default 0 values in the projector. That way I can get logs that are easily checked as no user setting is applied during the log and I don't have to remember to reset the settings before the autocal. Then after the calibration, I select custom 1 or custom 2 for color temp and gamma with the correct targets and I adjust the gains or gamma controls if necessary. The first screenshot attached below doesn't reflect this as I was playing around with the settings. The next screenshots showing the logs after calibration are for a gamma target of 2.2 and a color temp of 6500K.
- If you have a Spyder 5 and an i1pro2 (see Which meter to use? (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10387#msg10387) for more details), I recommend using the Spyder5 for gamma (facing the lens) and the i1pro2 for color (facing the screen). If you only have the Spyder5, I recommend using it only for gamma. If you have a better meter (i1d3 at least), you can correct the white point after the autocal using another software. I don't advise using the CMS unless you know what you are doing and check saturations below 100% sat.
- Obviously you select gamma (and the precision / number of steps) for a gamma autocal, color for a color Autocal (gamut + white balance), gamma + color if you want to run both at the same time with the same meter (usually a Spyder 5) and log if you just want to check the calibration as it is and not change anything.
- Keep a close eye on the log, especially for gamma. You want to avoid readings with a value of zero, which can happen for the first gamma step with any of the colors. If any reading is zero, you need to get the meter closer to the PJ (Spyder 5) or to the screen (i1pro2, although using the i1pro2 for gamma calibration isn't really recommended).
- Given that the most important gamuts are present in factory profiles (Rec-709, DCI-P3 and BT2020 with and without the filter) I don't really see the need for custom profiles, unless you want to use Rec-709 with the filter or DCI-P3 without the filter. When I find the time, I'll try to provide these if anyone is interested. At this stage I don't need them.
- Of course custom color profiles can be used to correct the errors in the Spyder 5, but as you need another meter and another software to do this, I'll document it later, if anyone is interested. For now, using the i1pro2 for color works well for me (at least with my WCG calibration, I need to give the SDR rec-709 one another go) and is much simpler/faster.
- If you have to switch your calibrating PC/laptop screen off during calibration in order to not pollute the measurements (I do), or if you would like to start a long process such as a gamma+color autocal or a 3D LUT and leave the room, it can be handy to use a remote control software. I use TeamViewer because it works on Mac, PC, iPad and iPhone and is free for personal use. Any other remote control software can do the trick. It allows you to follow the progress and even control various measurements while out of the room, which means more sunlight and less patterns. :)
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Here are the results of the gamma (Spyder 5 Pro) and color (i1pro2) Autocal of my SDR WCG calibration (P3, gamma 2.2) that I use for madVR.
I made these measurements with Calman Ultimate, using the Discus profiled to my i1pro2, without making any manual changes before or after calibration. The results could be improved with manual tweaking, but I though it would be more interesting to provide the raw results, post autocal.
The before measurements show the out of the box state after around 165 hours. I had reset all my color temp, gamma manual corrections and no LUT was applied of course.
The after measurements show the improvements coming from a 33 steps gamma and a color autocal.
I think that it's very decent, given that you go from a max dE of 5.3 and average of 1.6 before calibration to a max of 2.2 and average of 0.9 with the Colorchecker SG after the gamma and color autocal.
Interesting points to note: the peak brightness improves slightly (116nits vs 115nits) and so does the contrast, as the black floor stays roughly the same. It's very marginal and mostly invisible, but it's better than the opposite.
Also the gamut cover marginally improves, from 97% to 98%. I'll take everything I can get! Red remains very slightly undersaturated at 100% sat, which shows a probable limitation of the native gamut (I'm already using the filter), although this might reach closer to 100% in high lamp, as it often the case. This is almost certainly invisible, given that not much content reaches the edge of the gamut and that all the saurations below 100% track fairly well.
However, the greyscale/gamma is not as good as what I'm used to with the RS500 and the V7 of the software, so hopefully there is some room for improvement, either in the software itself or in the way to use it. This was my first attempt, I'll edit the post as/if results improve.
I have posted in the advanced section measurements showing how a madVR 3D LUT (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10408#msg10408) can improve the results even further.
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NETWORKING/TALKING TO THE PJ
Issue: The Autocal can’t talk to the projector, or it used to work, but suddenly it’s not responding. When clicking the “CHECK” button in the settings to check for network communication, it fails.
Solution 1: there is another process accessing the projector network interface through IP control, for example iRule or similar from an iOS or Android phone/tablet. Make sure there is no other software/app trying to access the JVC at the same time.
Solution 2: the network module in the projector needs to be reset. To do this, switch the projector off. Wait for the fan to go off and for the red light to stop blinking. Unplug the projector from the wall. Wait for the red light to go off. Plug the PJ back. Switch it back on. The network interface should be working again.
Solution 3: the IP address of the PJ might have changed since your last session (you can check this with the connected devices list in your router). For this reason I recommend to either use a fixed IP address, or if you use DHCP to reserve the IP address of the projector in your router using the MAC address. That way, you can still use DHCP to detect new devices but the PJ will always be allocated the same IP address.
Solution 4: the ECO mode in the projector is switched on. Switch it OFF to enable the JVC Autocal to work.
Issue: "error in detecting the model"
Solution: this means that the Autocal can find the projector, but there is either a problem with the input signal (so check that) or it detects another projector (but a different model) at the specified IP address. So check that the IP address is correct and doesn't point to your other PJ, as it happened to me. The autocal reverted to the older IP address at least once, so even if you've changed the IP address, it's worth checking that it still is the correct one.
CALIBRATION
Issue: the software seems to be talking to the Spyder 5, but there is no reading.
Solution: there is a protective cap on the Spyder 5, it kind of splits in half and opens to reveal the lens. With the cap on, it can only read black :)
Issue: After a color calibration, the log doesn't show all the greyscale points near the target (D65). How is this possible?
Solution: This is normal. While the RGB settings (offsets, gains) as well as gamma adjustments (dark, picture tone, bright) and screen type settings are *not* taken into account during the autocal, they *are* taken into account during the log. So if you want the log to show what the meter is reading, make sure your reset the RGB settings as well as gamma adjustments before calibration. Otherwise there is no harm leaving them as they are, they won't impact on the autocal itself.
Issue: After a gamma calibration, the post-cal measurement (white line) doesn't follow the reference/target (green line).
Solution: this is because the reference (green line) is always 2.2. So if you choose any other gamma target, it will be up to you to decide whether it's okay or not, which is almost impossible. Because a gamma autocal corrects all the gamma curves for a given calibration (and for all calibrations if you select the replicate all option), it is therefore recommended to select a 2.2 gamma target for a gamma calibration, so that you can see in the log if it follows the target as expected, and then select the gamma curve that you want after the autocal, as it will have been corrected too (provided you don't change the iris / lamp or filter setting).
Question: How do I know what's saved in the bakup file? Is it incremental or is it a full snapshot of the projector's state (all calibrations)?
Answer: Each backup file contains a full snapshot of all the calibrations as saved after the last saved calibration. This is discussed in more details here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14385#msg14385).
METERS
Issue: the meter (Spyder 5 or i1pro/i1pro2) isn't detected by the JVC Autocal software
Solution: Whichever meter you use, you need the manufacturer's driver (Datacolor or X-rite) to be installed, not another third party (for example ArgyllCMS). Also, if the manufacturer's software loads a utility (Datacolor does), you have to prevent this from being loaded or it will conflict with the JVC Autocal when it tries to access the meter.
Issue: the i1pro2 is detected but can't be selected (meter not found)
Solution: the i1pro2 needs to be calibrated before use. The way the JVC Autocal does it isn't obvious. You have to put the i1pro2 on its calibrating plate (the one with the white tile) before selecting it. As soon as you have selected it in the software, you have to press the button on the i1pro2 to initiate a white calibration. The i1pro2 will flash its leds and the sofware will detect it. If you don't run this calibration step, the software will return a "meter not found" message after a few seconds.
VARIOUS
Issue: no input signal error message
Solution: the Autocal software needs a valid video input to the projector (1080p or 2160p, though due to some issue 1080p might be preferable with early versions of the software) even if you’re not calibrating, so for example to load a custom gamma curve to a custom gamma slot, or to import a custom colour profile. So you need to get a source to display something that is send to the projector, even if it’s only a menu. Otherwise the software doesn’t work.
Issue: USB drive not detected during f/w upgrade attempt
Solution: if you've followed the f/w upgrade instructions (FAT32 formatted, no other files on the drive, no folder or file name change), it could be your specific USB drive that isn't detected. It happened to me, and trying a different drive worked right away.
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I'll report on JVC's new auto-tonemapping in more details when I've had a chance to spend some time with it. Based on the way it's supposed to work, it should be a significant improvement on previous models as it now takes into account the HDR metadata present in the content to adjust its curve according to each title. It seems to be the best OEM implementation to date for projectors, so kudos to JVC.
However, it relies on the presence of reliable metadata (which unfortunately can be wrong or missing, and I've not tested how good JVC's fallback is in that case). [EDIT: when there is no metadata, if you adjust the settings manually the PJ will remember these settings for all titles without metadata]. So I would expect its results to be incomparably better than on previous models not using custom curves, similar to UB820/Oppo 203/205, possibly on a par with older models using three good custom curves (and by this I mean really custom, not made by someone else who doesn't know the exact set-up, which includes my own downloadable curves and others) switched automatically by a Vertex/Maestro or a Radiance Pro, but inferior to good dynamic tonemapping relying on measuring each frame instead of using the metadata (MadVR, possibly the Radiance Pro when their tonamapping becomes dynamic). Again, that's just based on how it should work, not on actual observation (yet).
This being said, it's a huge improvement for the end user who doesn't want to mess with a HTPC, a Radiance Pro or custom curves, so let's thank JVC for this and by all means use it and adjust brightness to taste with the slider.
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[PRELIMINARY]
Main changes from V5:
- The 12 points gamma manual control are accessible in the software, it's the third option from the left in the main menu.
- No environment menu anymore, just a screen adjust setting in the installation menu on the projector
Main changes from V6/V7:
- No support for Spyder 4 models.
- Support for Spyder 5 and i1pro2.
- A "reflect to all" option that allows to copy a gamma calibration to all modes irrespective of filter, lamp, iris and CMD settings. Whether it's a "dumb" copy or whether it makes adjustments remains to be seen, but it's a nice option to have. Otherwise, the gamma calibration applies only to the mode with the same lamp and filter settings.
- The CMD setting doesn't influence the calibration, so you don't have to calibrate CMD on/off separately for color. Only the aperture, lamp power and filter settings determine whether a separate color calibration is necessary or not.
Some of the above features (such as support for i1pro2) have been implemented on recent models, but I haven’t used them personally and haven’t kept track of the changes. V11 is the first version I use after V7.
As you'll see in the manual (see link in post #2), not many differences in the software itself, but I expect many differences to optimize the calibration process as the picture modes will be different, and of course the meters (Spyder 5 and i1pro 2), while already supported with the latest versions of the eshift models, are also different compared to those we used with the RSx00 in the old calibration thread (Spyder 4 on V6 and Spyder 5 on V7 only). I have both a Spyder 5 Pro and an i1pro 2 (as well as a Discus) so I plan to explore the best way to use each meter in order to get the best results, with or without additional calibration software and 3D LUTs.
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All these brightness measurements are taken with my Minolta T10, at the screen, facing the lens.
The screen is a Carada BW 16/9 88" diag with a nominal effective gain (advertised 1.3). Throw distance is 3.6m, which I believe is around mid-throw.
I attach two files, the measurements with some details, and my notes describing each measured mode and giving a few more observations. Please read the notes before commenting :)
Important: I’ve taken all these measurements with the panel zoomed to 16/9.
I don’t really want to have to upscale all my content to 4K (4096x2160) and prefer to use UHD (3840x2160) as it's the native resolution of most of the content I watch.
Brightness should be higher for those who can/want to use the full 17/9 panel.
I plan to zoom to the native panel and measure the difference when I find the time.
Overall my unit measures close to the specs as far as I can see, and higher than my rs500 in the same set-up, at least in raw/max brightness.
The only area where I think it might be on the low side is regarding gamut cover. As explained in the recommended settings, I would expect a typical unit to cover above 100% of P3 with the filter and around 90% of P3 without. But 20% of brightness loss is in the average from what I can read. Some report 10%, some 25%. What's always unclear is if people report how much you lose with the filter, or how much you gain without, so I report both: 20% loss with the filter, 25% gain without. it would be nice if everyone could do the same. :)
[Edit: I measured low lamp because that's what I use myself, but it looks like in high lamp, the brightness cut with the filter is only 10% (15% gain without), for roughly the same difference in gamut cover (85% without the filter vs 100% with). So it looks like the P3 filter cuts less light in high lamp than in low lamp, but also reduces contrast a bit (24,000:1 vs 30,000:1 in BT2020)]. This might explain why the numbers are all over the place: depending on whether they report the cut or the gain, and whether this is measured in low lamp or high lamp, the difference between filter/no filter can go from 10% to 25%! :)
Oh, one last thing: please ignore the two lines at the top with "%loss". That's how I track the brightness loss for my bulb with the two modes I use most, but of course these being the initial measurements (my starting point) there is no loss and the numbers are the same.
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All the attached on/off contrast measurements are taken with my Minolta T10, about 22” from the lens, on a tripod. The room is a fully dedicated bat loft, entirely black-velvet covered (with black carpet on the floor), 100% light controlled (black out blind, no LEDs from equipment etc). It's a black pit with zero ambient nits when the PJ is off (provided the power LED is covered with tape). When measuring contrast, the only source of light comes from the PJ lens when on (and the side vents, but thanks to their angle, none of that light hits the screen). I anticipate that it might influence ANSI contrast measurements off the lens though.
Otherwise light reflection from the screen, the seats and the side of a shelf when not covered can be an issue for measuring ANSI contrast, but not with on/off measurements. I used madTPG as a pattern generator using Calman as it’s convenient and that’s my main source anyway (my HTPC with MadVR, not patterns in Calman :) ), so at least I’m sure that what I measure is what I watch. I have triple checked levels and everything, so there shouldn’t be any issue with this. In the past I used the JVC internal patterns for contrast measurements, but sadly it’s not possible anymore to control them with Calman.
This specific unit has a very slight bright corner in the lower left, so averaging measurements taken over the whole panel would no doubt lower the values. I don't find it a problem in normal viewing, and I'm very sensitive to bright corners. Measurements for this session were taken for the center of the panel only.
I didn’t move the meter for all the measurements as its range was enough to cover everything, given that the black floor with the DI didn’t go very low. Ideally, I’d have wanted to get a bit closer to the lens to lower the margin of error at the low end (I’m not happy with 0.04 lux for the lowest measurement, because we’re getting near the limit and a single significant digit change there makes a huge difference in the ratio) but it’s good enough for a first attempt. I usually measure on slow and wait at least 10-15 seconds for the reading to stabilize. If I find a way to place the tripod (possibly a different one) a bit closer to the lens, I might take another round. Overall I’m confident that these results are accurate (if not as far as their absolute readings, at least within the capability of the meter) because they are within 5% of those taken by the Discus in Calman (see below).
I’ve measured the most important mode for me, which is DCI-P3 with the filter in low lamp, as that's what I use with MadVR to tonemap HDR content (my UHD Blurays) to SDR on my HTPC. Note that with a consumer source you should only use a Rec-709 or BT2020 calibration, but that's a different subject. I also took a few measurements from Max Bright to get as close as possible to the specs.
A few more things to note:
As explained in the recommended settings, at least on my unit the default setting of zero for brightness was raising the black floor significantly and killing on/off and dynamic contrast. I had a brightness setting of -3 for the whole session. I know it’s obvious but please check your black floor before measuring contrast on these or you might get caught by this out of habit, as in my experience setting brightness to zero (using video levels / HDMI standard) does no raise the black floor on older models. On the rs500, I even had to raise brightness to +1 to improve shadow detail, and even that didn’t raise the black floor. So you're warned!
As you’ll see in the calibration measurements, once I’ve measured my baseline with the T10, I use my Discus trained to the i1pro2 to measure both contrast and brightness in Calman, as the discus can relatively accurately read black, even with the DI, provided a black calibration was done less than 10 minutes ago and that it’s set to high average / long integration mode. Usually the Discus is within 5% of the T10 for contrast, on the conservative side. For brightness, it’s within 10% when looking at nits numbers. That’s good enough for me given the added convenience. [Edit 15-02-19: I add some measurement of Max Bright (low and high lamp, iris open, both manual and auto2) taken with the Discus in Calman so you can compare the low lamp readings with the T10. They are almost identical for native (33,000:1) and fairly close for dynamic (200,000:1 for the Discus vs 235,000:1 for the T10). I also add measurements for BT2020 and HDR iris open (both manual and Auto2) showing that the filter cuts less light in high lamp than in low lamp and that HDR cuts some contrast as well as some saturation]
If you do measure dynamic contrast in an automated way using a calibration software and a meter able to read black reliably off the screen with a JVC (so not an i1pro2 or an i1displayPro/i1d3/C6), make sure that you increase the pattern delay. I raised my default 0.25s delay to 5s because the DI takes about 4s to fully close, which is a lot slower than on the older models (at least twice). So you want to give the time to get the blackest off reading.
Also the DI doesn’t close down as much as with the older models, so the dynamic contrast on this RS2000 isn’t as high as on my RS500, where I would get up to 500,000:1 and more dynamic. Another point of comparison, in this same DCI-P3 mode (low lamp, iris fully open, filter on), I would get close to 40,000:1 native on/of with the rs500. I get 30,000:1 on/off with the rs2000, which isn't too bad and again kind of correlates with the specs (about 30% less native on/off). Black floor is higher though because I had 100nits with the rs500 (at 3,000 hours) and I'm getting 120nits with the RS2000 (new lamp). The panel size (16/9 vs 17/9) might also play a part in this difference, as I didn't use the full panel for these measurements, like with the brightness measurements.
So that’s my main issue with contrast on this unit. I think my native is fairly close to specs given that I’m at mid-throw, it looks like the 80,000:1 max native should be met in long throw (I’m around 70,000:1 native in max bright, which I believe is the mode used to get to the specs), but the slow speed of the dynamic iris and the more open fully closed position leads to ok but not great dynamic contrast numbers, up to 235,000:1 again in max bright, with a multiplier above 7.
I have no idea how they achieve the 800,000:1 dynamic specs for the rs2000, as this would mean a multiplier of 10 on the manual iris fully closed specs, which has the lowest multiplier. Unless they mix one number from one mode with another from another mode. For example, if I calculate the on/off using the brightest on (23,600 lux max bright) and the dimmest off (0.04 lux low lamp auto2), then I get 590,000:1, which would be close to the specs at mid-throw, and would tally with a multiplier of 10 applied to my native with the iris fully closed. But I sure hope that this is not what JVC does to achieve this 800,000:1 dynamic contrast, as it wouldn't make sense. Anyone knows, please pitch in.
As with the older models, using auto1 or auto2 doesn’t make any difference regarding contrast. They only differ in the degree of aggressiveness of the gamma processing in each mode, auto1 being more aggressive than auto2. I measured both though to give you an idea of the repeatability of the T10, but I only use auto2 so in the future I’ll probably only mention/measure auto2.
Also as with older models, the highest native contrast is obtained with the manual iris fully closed, and the highest dynamic contrast with the iris fully open. The dynamic iris, from a contrast point of view, only changes the black (off), the peak (on) is defined by the manual iris setting and should remain roughly the same. You’ll see more measurements between low lamp and high lamp in the calibration measurements, but as expected there isn’t big difference between high lamp and low lamp contrast wise. The filter, on the other hand, seems to have more of an impact.
I still see some gamma artifacts in content that used to cause gamma artifacts in the rs500 (see recommended settings for details).
So as I noted in my suggestions to JVC at the beginning of the thread and in recommended settings, I really hope that if JVC can’t do better regarding gamma artifacts, they will give us an auto 3 mode that would have zero gamma manipulation and would only kick in on fade to black. I would want it faster (at least twice) and closing down at far down as possible, ideally down to where the older models did, which is much closer, so that we can get a better fade to black, especially in HDR where we need it most due to the raised black floor with the iris fully open.
ANSI contrast (added on March 09, 2019):
I measured ANSI contrast (Greg Rogers modified) at the lens as 206:1 (iris fully open, so max for ANSI) at 110 hours last week. It's on the low side, but seems to be close to what others (Ekki, Chad B) have measured on various units. I triple checked because I was a bit disappointed, especially following rumours at CEDIA of 50% improvements on ANSI contrast compared to eshift models, but that's as good as it gets here, with this RS2000 unit.
Measurements have in fact improved, I measured only 190:1 at 30 hours, and waited until the unit settled at 110 hours to retake measurements. I haven't seen any measurement significantly above 200:1 on any of the new models.
This wasn't with a "tube" but with a black velvet tent stopping any light to get to the screen and back. I was in full ninja suit, including black gloves (yes, not wearing black gloves does impact ANSI contrast measurements negatively, especially at the lens). The T10 was around 18" from the lens for these ANSI contrast measurements to maximize the readings. Any closer and the measurements would go down due to the light from the white squares polluting the sensor during black readings. To compare, my rs500 measured 247:1 when new in the same room and same position.
I measured around 194:1 ANSI for the RS2000 at the screen, which confirms the excellent performance of my bat loft as it's a small hit (around 5%) from the room compared to the reading at the lens.
I measured quickly a single square with the iris fully closed, both at the lens and at the screen, to show the delta (that's the results on the left). The hit when closing the iris is small, which is good news. This is a single square (I selected one in the mid-range of my ANSI measurements, neither the lowest nor the highest), so just an indication really.
Full results (on/off and ANSI contrast measurements) in the attached updated chart.
[EDIT: please don't pay attention to the 2% error accuracy margins, they are not relevant for the Minolta T10].
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OOTB and basic Rec-709 calibration measurements at 30 hours:
I attach a ZIP with measurements of my rec-709 mode (User1, Rec-709 color profile, 6500K, low lamp, no filter, iris -12). These were taken at about 30 hours on the lamp.
I get 60nits with the iris at -12, and this leaves some headroom for calibration as I like to end up with 50-55nits calibrated.
All measurements taken with my Discus trained to my i1pro2. The Discus used under the right conditions reads very close to my Minolta T10, so I trust it even for black/contrast measurements. For these, I used the i1pro2 on its own for all gamut and color volume measurements, and the Discus trained to it for gresycale and contrast. Don't pay attention to the meter on the screenshots, I don't take the screenshots at the same time as the measurements, so either meter could be selected then.
The only thing I did before taking these is set 100% white to D65. I then selected a gamma 2.4 preset and adjusted picture tone gamma to +3 and dark gamma to +3 to get a rough BT1886 curve (specific to my unit, so unlikely to work the same on yours). I never use the CMS.
These pre-cal measurements are taken before any Autocal is run. When I use Autocal I usually don't bother with picture tone, I just set dark gamma afterwards, but I wanted to show what you could get in 5mn without using the Autocal.
Of course gamma and RGB balance could be made better adjusting offsets and/or using the 12-point gamma controls in the Autocal software if you don't like the idea of running the Autocal itself.
I include gamut saturations, greyscale (before and after dark/picture tone gamma adjustments), contrast at -12 with iris set to manual and auto2, and color volume measurements. I also add for comparison a measurement of the Natural user preset, which is very close to my user1 and tracks very well but for some reason is a bit less saturated (96.84% of rec-709 gamut cover vs close to 97.98%). I'll add a colorchecker in the next set.
I think they are very close to perfect for an OOTB state. Certainly good enough for me to watch some content before running an Autocal and a 3D LUT. Kudos to JVC for delivering such a good calibration OOTB. 100% of rec-709 gamut volume, with near perfect saturations and very decent greyscale, I'm happy with that for now. :)
I'll post measurements after the Autocal once I've had a chance to play with it.
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No detailed measurements yet but I thought I'd post gamut and brightness/contrast measurements for the BT2020 Color Preset (BT2020 with the filter), so you can compare gamut cover increase and brightness loss compared to the HDR preset (without the filter).
As expected, the BT2020 profile tracks BT2020 saturations, as BT2020 is the container for consumer sources/content.
I measured P3 within BT2020 to give a better idea of how it tracks P3 content, which is the most common at the moment.
I did these measurements in high lamp because historically that's what gives the largest gamut cover (and that's usually what people use for HDR content).
Using the filter cuts around 10% of brightness (164nits vs 183nits without the filter) in order to get close to full P3 cover (99% with the filter, 85% without). The contrast is also higher in BT2020 than in HDR (around 30,000:1 vs 24,000:1). I posted all the new contrast and brightness measurements in the contrast section.
So interestingly, it looks like the filter cuts less light in high lamp (10% cut / 15% gain) than in low lamp (20% cut / 25% gain), and increases the contrast compared to HDR.
I would think that my unit is at the low end regarding gamut cover, I would expect a bit above 100% with the filter and around 90% without.
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No detailed measurements yet but I thought I'd post gamut and brightness/contrast measurements for the HDR Color Preset (BT2020 without the filter), so you can compare gamut cover decrease and brightness gain compared to the BT2020 preset (with the filter).
As expected, the HDR profile tracks BT2020 saturations, as BT2020 is the container for consumer sources/content.
I measured P3 within BT2020 to give a better idea of how it tracks P3 content, which is the most common at the moment.
Losing the filter bring back around 15% of brightness (183nits vs 164nits) at the cost of 15% of saturation (99% of P3 with the filter, 85% without).
I would think that my unit is at the low end, I would expect a bit above 100% with the filter and around 90% without.
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OOTB and basic DCI-P3 calibration measurements at 30 hours:
I attach a ZIP with measurements of my DCI-P3 mode (User3, DCI-P3 color profile, 6500K, low lamp, with filter, iris open). These were taken at about 30 hours on the lamp.
I get 120 nits with the iris open and the filter, which is more than enough for HDR content tonemapped by MadVR, as this is what I use this calibration for. It's relevant even for non-MadVR users because it shows what the color volume is for P3 content when using a BT2020 or HDR colour profile. I'd get around 150nits (25% increase) without the filter, but I only get 85% of P3 that way (vs 97%) so I prefer using the filter. The filter cuts around 20% of brightness on my unit.
As usual, all measurements taken with my Discus trained to my i1pro2. The Discus used under the right conditions reads very close to my Minolta T10, so I trust it even for black/contrast measurements. For these, I used the i1pro2 on its own for all gamut and color volume measurements, and the Discus trained to it for gresycale and contrast. Don't pay attention to the meter on the screenshots, I don't take the screenshots at the same time as the measurements, so either meter could be selected then.
The only thing I did before taking these is set 100% white to D65. I then selected a gamma 2.2 preset (as this will be the target of my MadVR 3D LUT). I didn't adjust anything except the gains in the 6500K preset. I never use the CMS. It took 3 minutes of adjustments (if that) to get these results.
These pre-cal measurements are taken before any Autocal is run.
Of course gamma and RGB balance could be made better adjusting offsets and/or using the 12-point gamma controls in the Autocal software if you don't like the idea of running the Autocal itself.
I include gamut saturations, greyscale, contrast with the iris set to manual and auto2, and color volume measurements. I'll add a colorchecker in the next set.
I'm happy with the gamut saturations and the greyscale, I think it's very good for an OOTB after just a white point adjustment. I would have liked red to go a bit further, but it seems to be a common occurrence on the new models to have red (instead of green and cyan on older models) falling a bit short.
Still, 97% of P3 gamut cover and 99% of P3 color volume, with saturations tracking very well, I'm happy with this. :)
I'll post measurements after the Autocal once I've had a chance to play with it.
Measurements after Calman Lightning LUT
I was hoping that I could live with my quick and dirty basic calibration for a while but the greyscale errors in the low end were too visible. I remeasured today and they were above 6dE.
As I don't have the time at the moment to dive into the Autocal, I decided to run a Lightning LUT with Calman (101 points, it takes only around 10 minutes) as the gamut is very linear. In the past, that gave me very good results when the baseline is linear. So when my rs500 was under 1000 hours, that's what I used. After that, I had to use progressively larger LUT as it became less linear as I put 3000 hours on the clock.
Measurements are much better, as expected, especially for greyscale. I ran a colorchecker SG (with/without the MadVR Lightning LUT), and I add updated before/after for today's session. I try not to run a colorchecker SG if I try to avoid a proper calibration to not influence me, but this time it was quite obvious a bit more was needed.
I haven't had a chance to check for visual issues (especially posterization near black or near the edge of the gamut), but I'll report on that later if I find any.
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For now see this post (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg12267#msg12267).
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For now see Sirmaster's post here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14303#msg14303).
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Here are my results if I apply a madVR 3D LUT on top of the calibration obtained after the JVC Autocal (see baseline here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10391#msg10391)). You don't need to run the autocal beforehand, but I like running the autocal and applying a LUT on top because it allows me to use the autocaled calibration with my non-HTPC sources, and apply the madVR LUT on top for HTPC content.
The results are near reference (well, within the error margin of my i1pro2, which hopefully and visually should be below 3dEs).
At the moment, because the baseline is so linear, I can create my 3D LUT with a very quick profile (Lightning LUT, 101 points in Calman Ultimate).
After a while, I might have to run a larger LUT. When I get there, I'll compare results between Lightspace and Calman. I had issues with both with my slightly undersaturated rs500, so I can't recommend either. But with a nearly fully saturated baseline such as this, I would expect to get good results from either software. I would also include DisplayCAL as an option, because I got very good results with it. Unfortunately, it doesn't support the Discus, otherwise I would most certainly be using it more regularly.
I'll update this post when/if I make an attempt with larger LUTs, but given the current results my motivation to burn hours of bulb time running larger profiles is very low. :)
Again, the before measurements are available in the basic - calibration (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10391#msg10391) section. You would get the same results with a LUT run from the before calibration state, because it's already very linear., at least for now at 165 hours.
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thats alot of reserved!
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thats alot of reserved!
You'll soon understand why :)
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Just enter 00000000 as the serial to download the software :)
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I just used an older models serial number and that worked too.
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Yes, or any of the serial numbers shown during any of the shows... :) Most of them work, that's why I said "a serial number" ;).
I've added a list of suggestions/improvements to send to JVC here: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10384#msg10384
I'll update when we can actually work with V11 on the new models, but I thought it would be good to have a starting point. I will try to add a bit more content in the thread over the next few weeks, but the fun will really start when the units land.
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I've edited the first post and started to populate the headings to most of the reserved posts, so that people get an idea of why I reserved so many. :)
I've also listed in post #2 an index of the topics I plan to cover and I've added the links to the couple of posts with actual content. I'll add the links as the content goes in.
There won't be much more posted until we get the units and we can start playing with them, but that should give an idea of the plan. Please let me know if you think I've forgotten a key aspect that you think should be covered.
There might be a few MadVR related sections at the end (only re HDR and calibration settings), but I don't want to have the thread cluttered with MadVR related posts because not everyone is interested in that, so I'm not listing these topics yet. It might be better to create a separate thread for that. We'll see.
I'll post whenever I add new content, but I don't expect much to happen from my side until December now.
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Having just said that, I thought that some might want to get a meter before the PJ shows up so they can hit the ground running, even if an Autocal isn't usually necessary with a new PJ. Anyway, here you go:
Which meter to use with V11?: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10387#msg10387
Of course this preliminary advice is based on what we know about each meter (I own a Spyder 5 Pro that I use with V7 and an i1pro2 that I've used for years as a reference meter with various calibration software) and their use in previous Autocal versions. If you want certitude, wait a few weeks until we can test them with the new V11 and the RS2000.
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Also added a preliminary Troubleshooting section, as I don't expect it to be very different with V11.
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10392#msg10392
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I sure hope this Autocal works well and reliably...
The Autocal v9 for the X9500 is severely dodgy, its VERY difficult to actually get it to calibrate colour properly at all without wildly undershooting the gamut, I dont even use it for that anymore, I actually found it better to load in a custom gamut taking into account the Spyder errors using the Excel method and then once I upload it, dont dare calibrate it with Autocal, but use the CMS to slightly tweak the tracking from there. Its OK for Gamma, though there was a bug with v1.0 where it would corrupt gamma measurements and have severe red push due to 'trash' frames flashing before gamma readings were done and actually corrupting the readings. They fixed that though luckily!
Autocal v10 was a lot better, I was able to calibrate the profiles properly first time and get accurate tracking on the X9900. The X7000 was a dream too, probably by far the easiest actually. The X9500 is just a pig to use Autocal on. Then again, could be just my unit...
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[PRELIMINARY]
>snip<
The x-Rite i1Pro 2 (you only need the basic version for projector/display calibration use)
The i1pro 2 is a very good, semi-pro, near reference spectroradiometer. It is not to be confused with the x-Rite i1 Display Pro, also called i1d3, which is NOT compatible with the JVC Autocal. It’s average error shouldn’t be further away from reference than 1dE (max), which is very good for the price. That’s the meter I use to train my BasiCColor Discus when I use different calibration software, and the one I plan to use for color (gamut+white point) calibration with the Autocal.
>snip<
- The older i1pro (preferably rev.B-D), that isn’t officially supported and has a smaller range (0.2-300nits). Still it can be used with the Autocal software, but I would only recommend it for a color calibration (gamut + white point), not for a gamma calibration. It also needs an initialization more often than the i1pro2, which makes it more annoying to use. See https://xritephoto.com/documents/literature/en/L7-518_i1PRO-i1PRO2_en.pdf for the differences between the two versions.
Have you got a source for the quoted accuracy for i1pro2? For what it is worth I don't think there is any particularly good information out there with respect to the accuracy of the i1pro2 for projection or displays - I've seen a couple of sets of data for single meters (including a comparison by Tom Huffman of a single meter against several display techs). X-rite only quote reflective (paper) reading accuracy in their certification, so even if you have it recertified it doesn't tell you anything about display measurements.
Going way back, the only really good group-test I've seen of meters, looking at many samples of each, was this one from Dry Creek Photo which included the previous generation i1pro meter:
https://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/MonitorCalibrationHardware.html (https://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/MonitorCalibrationHardware.html)
They measured mean difference against a "true reference" spectro; a significant batch of i1pro units had a mean dE2000 of 4.3 for standard gamut CCFL LCD and 2.3 for wide gamut RGB LED backlight. Average dE2000 between units was 2.0 and max 3.5.
I'd dearly love to see such a comparison of i1pro2 units; there are several changes which claim benefits (such as the wavelength calibration) but I've not really seen anything. Most of the reviews of these devices tend to be from folk just looking at the functionality.
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Have you got a source for the quoted accuracy for i1pro2? For what it is worth I don't think there is any particularly good information out there with respect to the accuracy of the i1pro2 for projection or displays - I've seen a couple of sets of data for single meters (including a comparison by Tom Huffman of a single meter against several display techs). X-rite only quote reflective (paper) reading accuracy in their certification, so even if you have it recertified it doesn't tell you anything about display measurements.
Going way back, the only really good group-test I've seen of meters, looking at many samples of each, was this one from Dry Creek Photo which included the previous generation i1pro meter:
https://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/MonitorCalibrationHardware.html (https://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/MonitorCalibrationHardware.html)
They measured mean difference against a "true reference" spectro; a significant batch of i1pro units had a mean dE2000 of 4.3 for standard gamut CCFL LCD and 2.3 for wide gamut RGB LED backlight. Average dE2000 between units was 2.0 and max 3.5.
I'd dearly love to see such a comparison of i1pro2 units; there are several changes which claim benefits (such as the wavelength calibration) but I've not really seen anything. Most of the reviews of these devices tend to be from folk just looking at the functionality.
Yes, I sent you that link to the drycreekphoto test when you were asking about the Discus :)
I haven't seen any third party assessment of the i1pro2, I can only say that it's pretty close to reference. Whether it's 1dE or 3dE, I have no idea, but it's below the visible threshold for most of us, unless it's defective. I have no reasons to believe that the dE for the i1pro2 should be lower than for the i1pro, but as I haven't seen any trustworthy 3rd party review I put the manufacturer specs. [EDIT: I changed the 1dE in my post to 1-3dE as it's more likely to be closer to reality].
My point is that unless you are a pro, it's hard to justify better than the i1pro2. And recertifying it is pointless unless it's defective, as they never adjust anything in a recertification. They measure and send you the measurements. If it's within specs, that's all they do. If it's out of specs, it's defective and you have to pay for repair. Needless to say that I don't recertify my i1pro2 anymore...
I think the biggest point against the i1pro is the smaller range with a peak of 300nits, rather than the accuracy. Apart from that, they are both "good enough" to be used as a near-reference meter to calibrate a decent colorimeter. I don't use them for anything else than that, but I'll try a few things when I get the rs2000.
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Yes, I sent you that link to the drycreekphoto test when you were asking about the Discus :)
I haven't seen any third party assessment of the i1pro2, I can only say that it's pretty close to reference. Whether it's 1dE or 3dE, I have no idea, but it's below the visible threshold for most of us, unless it's defective. I have no reasons to believe that the dE for the i1pro2 should be lower than for the i1pro, but as I haven't seen any trustworthy 3rd party review I put the manufacturer specs. [EDIT: I changed the 1dE in my post to 1-3dE as it's more likely to be closer to reality].
My point is that unless you are a pro, it's hard to justify better than the i1pro2. And recertifying it is pointless unless it's defective, as they never adjust anything in a recertification. They measure and send you the measurements. If it's within specs, that's all they do. If it's out of specs, it's defective and you have to pay for repair. Needless to say that I don't recertify my i1pro2 anymore...
I think the biggest point against the i1pro is the smaller range with a peak of 300nits, rather than the accuracy. Apart from that, they are both "good enough" to be used as a near-reference meter to calibrate a decent colorimeter. I don't use them for anything else than that, but I'll try a few things when I get the rs2000.
Indeed, I'd still love to know how that Discus review worked - they must have been testing one of the (few?) displays it tracks well without spectro profiling as I've had no such luck on any consumer display with it without profiling.
I don't think x-rite spec 1dE anywhere for displays WRT reference; the 1dE spec is for reference ceramic tiles measured using the inbuilt lamp, and of course that has the benefit of being able to be calibrated (I believe) against the white tile you put under it at calibration time.
I think even if you are a pro I'm getting less and less convinced these days(!); getting very sceptical in my old age.
I've had an i1pro rev D, still have an i1pro2 and now have a JETI 1201 which I'll probably get recalibrated soon as it was a used bargain. 3-4dE between the white measures of these 3 meters seems common for me, which probably puts them all around the 1-3dE circle around reference (perhaps).
Of course the specs for these meters are (like most specs) not that helpful. Even on the JETI the spec is x,y +/- 0.002 @ Illuminant A (x 0.4476,y 0.4075). Worst case that is around 2dE2000, but the same margin of error at D65 100 nits white (who knows, it's unspecified) could be up to 11dE(!).
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Manni - Great job with this thread so far. I'm looking forward to your analysis!
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Thanks for your kind words Ric!
UPS says it should be delivered on Tuesday, so the fun here should start next week :)
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Great thread Manni. I've bookmarked it!
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Hi Dave, thanks for the kind words, looking forward to seeing you here :)
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@Manni - when you get your unit and you start playing with the custom profiles, can you have a look at how linear they are? You basically take a small profile (say 5^3), and create a custom colourspace in Lightspace with the measured RGBW extents as the gamut definition, and then generate a Peak Chroma LUT from that profile into the custom colourspace. With a perfectly linear profile you'd end up supposedly looking at a perfect cube.
I've tried this on my X7900 with REC709F, REC709NF and then the built in reference profile with a 3DLUT loaded. Only the reference profile with 3DLUT seems to profile back to a rough cube; the two custom profiles loaded both have what seem to be significant non-linearities. I'd be interested to know if you see similar behaviour, and if you do what you think of it. Cheers!
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Okay, let the fun begin :)
I've spend much of the last 48 hours setting up, calibrating and running measurements on my new RS2000, which is sitting on a shelf below my RS500. I'll swap them once I've found the time to measure ANSI contrast in its current (temporary) position.
I've posted some preliminary recommended settings and observations here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10388#msg10388) and detailed brightness and contrast measurements will follow shortly, as well as out of the box calibration measurements.
I'll post some first impressions here or in the owners' thread when I've had more time to watch content. I wanted to calibrate the beast (even minimally) and find the best settings before doing so properly.
Enjoy! :)
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Greetings,
Thanks as always Manni!
Regards,
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Greetings,
Thanks as always Manni!
Regards,
And you're always welcome Ralph :)
I've just posted detailed brightness measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10395#msg10395), with contrast measurements to come soon.
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Nice one Manni, shapping up well! :) Sounds like you've got a good one so far.
Did you see Datacolor have launched a new meter - SpyderX?
https://spyderx.datacolor.com/about-spyderx/
There are marketing claims around for improvements in accuracy and better low light capabilities.
I know JVC typically haven't supported new meters in released product. However I do wonder if getting support (seeing as it is provided by an external DLL) might be as simple as switching the DLL for the one for the new meter.
Anyway, might be work a look! :)
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Nice one Manni, shapping up well! :) Sounds like you've got a good one so far.
Did you see Datacolor have launched a new meter - SpyderX?
https://spyderx.datacolor.com/about-spyderx/ (https://spyderx.datacolor.com/about-spyderx/)
There are marketing claims around for improvements in accuracy and better low light capabilities.
I know JVC typically haven't supported new meters in released product. However I do wonder if getting support (seeing as it is provided by an external DLL) might be as simple as switching the DLL for the one for the new meter.
Anyway, might be work a look! :)
Thanks!
No I didn't see this about the Spyder X. This might explain why the Spyder 5 Pro is on sale on Amazon UK, at the lowest price ever of £99 (a true bargain).
It might be worth investigating indeed, but not before we can check that the Autocal V11 itself works as intended, I'm reading a few worrying reports from trusted calibrators (such as Chad B) that it might not be entirely ready for prime time. We shall see!
I've just posted detailed contrast measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10396#msg10396) to wrap the day. I'll try to post some calibration measurements as soon as I can, hopefully tomorrow.
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Just posted detailed measurements for my SDR rec-709 quick calibration (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10398#msg10398) (no Autocal).
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Also added to yesterday's results some contrast measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10396#msg10396) taken with the Discus trained to the i1pro2 in Calman to compare with the T10. Max Bright, low and high lamp, iris fully open, manual and auto2. This is mainly to give an idea of the accuracy of the Discus ofr contrast measurements, as this is what I'll be using most of the time.
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...and some measurements for my wide gamut (DCI-P3) basic calibration (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10401#msg10401) (just 100% white set to D65).
I'll try to post HDR and BT2020 measurements later.
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I may have missed it somewhere, but how much light loss are you seeing with the P3 filter in the light path?
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I may have missed it somewhere, but how much light loss are you seeing with the P3 filter in the light path?
I mention this in the recommended settings and in my DCI-P3 measurements. The filter cuts 20% of light, so you gain 25% by not using it. People rarely specify clearly which number they are talking about, so there is a lot of confusion.
[In low lamp]
Filter (120nits here) = no filter (150nits here) -20%
No filter = filter +25%
I’ll also post the difference in the HDR and BT2020 measurements later.
EDIT: see below, it looks like these numbers only apply in low lamp, which is what I primarily use. I've measured BT2020 and HDR in high lamp and the numbers are:
In High Lamp:
Filter (165nits here)= no filter (185nits here) -10%
No filter = filter +15%
That explains a lot!
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I was hoping I could live with my quick and dirty P3 calibration, but the errors especially on greyscale were too visible on actual content, so I decided to run a Lightning LUT (10minutes) with Calman. Much better :)
All details and new measurements (before after greyscale, gamut, colorchecker SG and contrast) added in the DCI-P3 measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10401#msg10401).
I haven't checked for visual issues yet.
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Breaking news:
I think I found why the filter/no filter numbers are all over the place. In my brightness measurements, I measured low lamp because that's what I use. In low lamp, the cut is 20% (150nits without filter to 120nits with it). The gain is 25%.
But in high lamp, the cut is only 10% (185nits without the filter to 165nits with it). The gain is 15%.
Dylan, can you confirm you're seeing something similar?
I've posted detailed measurements in the contrast section (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10396#msg10396) for BT2020 and HDR showing the effect of the filter in low lamp and high lamp, but manual and auto (along with the High Bright measurements previously posted).
I've also posted some gamut (P3 within BT2020) and contrast measurements in the BT2020 measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10399#msg10399) and HDR measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10400#msg10400) sections. I tried to update my recommended settings and a few posts accordingly, but there might be a few mismatches here and there because I'm having some issues with the editor of the site. I'll resume posting when this is resolved.
I've also updated the main index (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10383#msg10383) post with live links.
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Yes, remember when I posed the question earlier in the owners thread as to how I was only measuring a 10% loss? It seems you found out why. I was measuring in high lamp mode. I'm glad my measurements now match yours.
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I'm not doubting you guys are measuring this difference, but I wonder why it is? It doesn't make a ton of sense at first look.
I understand there is now a filter in both the green and red path. I wonder if this is a single filter in an opportune place in the light splitting, or two separate filters. If two separate filters, I wonder if they're both always being used - perhaps they don't need one of them in high lamp. Do you hear any filter type sounds when switching lamp mode, or is it just the change in fan noise? I don't think this is likely though.
Are these all calibrated D65 measures?
The lamp spectrum changes with high lamp, which I guess could have an effect; but it is a big difference.
And of course, when you switch the lamp mode you're in a different Autocal bank, perhaps there is some difference there... I know you've not run autocal yet, but perhaps there is some difference in what they are loaded with to start with.
The only reason to try and figure this out is to see if it is possible to liberate a bit more light in low lamp with the filter on.
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I'm not doubting you guys are measuring this difference, but I wonder why it is? It doesn't make a ton of sense at first look.
I understand there is now a filter in both the green and red path. I wonder if this is a single filter in an opportune place in the light splitting, or two separate filters. If two separate filters, I wonder if they're both always being used - perhaps they don't need one of them in high lamp. Do you hear any filter type sounds when switching lamp mode, or is it just the change in fan noise? I don't think this is likely though.
Are these all calibrated D65 measures?
The lamp spectrum changes with high lamp, which I guess could have an effect; but it is a big difference.
And of course, when you switch the lamp mode you're in a different Autocal bank, perhaps there is some difference there... I know you've not run autocal yet, but perhaps there is some difference in what they are loaded with to start with.
The only reason to try and figure this out is to see if it is possible to liberate a bit more light in low lamp with the filter on.
I agree 100% that it is not expected, which is why I initially thought that my low lamp numbers would apply to high lamp too.
It definitely works that way on the rs500 as far as I remember.
No there is no filter noise when moving between high/low in high lamp.
The calibration tables can make a difference, but that would be a big difference at 100%, which is unlikely.
I do take the time to reprofile the Discus eveytime I change lamp mode or filter mode, so I have five profiles: SDR Rec-709, BT2020-F (low lamp), BT2020-F (high lamp), HDR-NF (low lamp) and HDR-NF (high lamp).
The differences are not huge, but enough to impact the results. I redid all my measurements yesterday when I found this and it's 100% checked. All the brightness / contrast results I've taken with Calman (in the zips BT2020 and HDR open iris) are at D65 for every single mode, which is why it take a while to run them. I set D65 with the i1pro2, then checked the Discus profile to make sure the RGB/100% white reading is the same, re-ran the profile if necessary, and then took the contrast measurements with the Discus. I did this every single time I changed either the filter mode or the lamp mode.
I also made sure that the Discus had a dark cal within 5mn, especially for the measurements with the DI.
So I'm 99.99% confident of my measurements :)
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So I'm 99.99% confident of my measurements :)
I didn't even mention measurement technique stuff as I'm sure you're sure... :) :)
If you were interested to work out if it is intrinsic to the filter + lamp spectrum in hi vs low, or a digital issue in the projector calibration tables, you could measure the projector in Profile Off mode with 100% white patch. And while in profile off mode with your white patch displayed use JVCcontrol as per my post elsewhere, or some other means, to sneak the filter into the light path for the purpose of measurements. It would give a valuable clue as to whether there is scope to get more P3 brightness in low lamp... :)
Edit: in each case you'd need to use the colour temp sliders to adjust 100% white to match D65 of course.
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I've just posted some initial impressions (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10384#msg10384). It's a draft (so forgive any typos) but it's roughly accurate.
Bobof, sorry but I've spent a lot of time calibrating and measuring, now that I'm happy with the performance I'm going to watch content. A lot of content! I'm super happy with the projector and it was very difficult for me not to watch again every single film I watched a clip from...
Later I'll get the meters out again, but for now, I'm patterned out :)
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Bobof, sorry but I've spent a lot of time calibrating and measuring, now that I'm happy with the performance I'm going to watch content. A lot of content! I'm super happy with the projector and it was very difficult for me not to watch again every single film I watched a clip from...
I wasn't suggesting you should, just a way to figure out a bit more if you were interested.. :). Cheers!
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Wow Manni - Just finished getting caught up with your progress. What am amazing thread you are building and super organized. This is a fantastic resource. Thanks so much for putting this together! I'm really happy that you love the new unit and it is a significant upgrade over your RS500. Looking forward to reading more about your impressions as you continue to spend more time with the unit.
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Did a REC709/SDR calibration tonight:
(https://i.imgur.com/d2cbVpm.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/mHjVZov.png)
Greyscale needed a decent bit of help, but I could tell that right out of the box. I'll more than likely need to do another calibration in a month or so as I only have 25 hours on this bulb. I forgot to take a screenshot of the gamma curve, but that was pretty close to perfect out of the box. Brightness and contrast set to their default '0' setting clips and crushes properly at 235 and 16.
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Looks good Dylan. Did you check if brightness = 0 raises the black floor on your unit too? The defaults in HDMI standard (16-235) do clip below 16 and above 235, but I needed -2 on brightness to not raise the black floor and kill on/off contrast. It would be good to know if mine is an odd one out or if it's more frequent.
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The way I have things set up is like this. I use LAV Video Decoder and under Options for it I set 'RGB Output Levels" as 'Untouched, As Input", then in madVR, I set it to 0-255 and then in nvidia control center for my RTX 2070 I have it set to Full 0-255 as well. This way the computer itself isn't altering anything. I also use the "disable GPU gamma ramps" under the calibration tab in madVR. All of these settings make it so only the projector will manipulate the image. My RS2000 correctly detects the incoming image when setting the HDMI Input Level to Auto. I used the AVS Test Pattern suite to confirm black crushes properly a 16 and white clips properly at 235 with both the Brightness and Contrast settings set to their default '0' position. I have the R. Masicola HDR test pattern suite and will use that when doing my HDR10 calibration in the coming days.
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The fact the the levels clip where they should doesn’t mean that you aren’t raising the black floor. I explained this briefly in the recommended settings. Display a black pattern (no ambient light of course) and press hide on the remote. Does the pattern get blacker? Sometimes it’s not possible to detect visually that the brightness setting raises the black floor, you need to measure. For example, with brightness at 0, I can see that the black floor is raised with the “hide” test. With -1, it’s not visible that clearly by eye, but if I meaure contrast still goes down. Only -2 in my case doesn’t raise the black floor. This is not detectable using the pattern used to set levels. You need a black pattern (and ideally a meter able to read black accurately) to assess this.
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I will test this out later. I will place my lux meter as close to the lens as I can to get the most accurate reading.
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I received my Spyder5Pro today and decided to "LOG" the results. The only adjustments I have made OOTB was 2 point adjustment using Calman for BT709 and that got me great deltas/results for Gamma and Color using the C6 HDR Meter for BT709.
I'm unfamiliar with the JVC calibration so perhaps you can help me out with the "LOG" results and if I should actually run the gamma+color calibration? Or if I should use Calman and calibrate the HDR as it seems like the HDR is way off...
User 1 (BT709:
(https://i.imgur.com/hzavJOx.jpg)
HDR10 Results:
(https://i.imgur.com/eXCuXLW.jpg)
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This maynot be the right place to post but I thought manni or someone else might help me... Ive asked this question on some of the madvr threads but cant seem to get an answer...
I have the new NX9, screen size is 145" diag curved Stewart ST130 micro perf. Im using the new dynamic madvr HDR to SDR version 49 which I just love. It is better than the new tone mapping on the NX9 and super bright I can run in low lamp.
My problem is I just dont know how to set the target nits in madvr, I have asked this question but most come back saying try this or that and see what looks best. I was told for my screen and its gain of 1.2 I should use 80 target on the NX9, but I know of others that use 200 with a Z1. I have tried 80 which I say looks great, but last night I tried 200, but I dont see anything really change, however i dont know what to look for being so new to HDR. Manni or someone else can you please advise me what to look for or what to set the target nits to.
Many thanks in advance and sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.
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Murray, you'll need a lux meter. You'll need to measure the actual peak white image brightness coming off of your screen. This is the number you'll want to use for the latest builds of madVR.
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Murray, you'll need a lux meter. You'll need to measure the actual peak white image brightness coming off of your screen. This is the number you'll want to use for the latest builds of madVR. Oh not so easy:(
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Manni, I just checked and I'm not seeing any change in black level doing the "hide" test. My Minolta CL200 lux meter didn't report a difference in black level either. Projector was in high lamp, iris fully open. Meter was placed within a foot of the projector lens, too. So this was well within the meter's range to detect a change.
I'm wondering if there's something done at the factory, a type of calibration, that each unit receives that might account for this difference between our units.
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I received my Spyder5Pro today and decided to "LOG" the results. The only adjustments I have made OOTB was 2 point adjustment using Calman for BT709 and that got me great deltas/results for Gamma and Color using the C6 HDR Meter for BT709.
The Rec-709 results look good, I wouldn't attempt an Autocal right now as there are issues with the current version (V11 1.0) restoring init files if needed. Plus from what I hear the results aren't completely right at the moment. This is why I haven't yet started diving into the software. I want to be able to go back to factory if something goes wrong, and a factory reset doesn't allow that. So personally I'm waiting for an update to the software from JVC. If you have a C6, I would work on the lower greyscale ab it further as it looks a bit out (you can also use the JVC Autocal to adjust gamma manually using the 11-point parametric controls, as that should work. I might give it a try at some point and explain the procedure if needed. For HDR, yes, it would be more useful to look at results in Calman as the graphs would be more precise, but PQ will always look like this, because the flat line always shows a gamma 2.2 reference. So the shape itself isn't a sign that it's significantly off. In fact it doesn't look that bad.
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Manni, I just checked and I'm not seeing any change in black level doing the "hide" test. My Minolta CL200 lux meter didn't report a difference in black level either. Projector was in high lamp, iris fully open. Meter was placed within a foot of the projector lens, too. So this was well within the meter's range to detect a change. I'm wondering if there's something done at the factory, a type of calibration, that each unit receives that might account for this difference between our units.
Hi Dylan, Oh yes, there is always unit to unit variation, so I wouldn't expect all units to need the same setting, it's just that in my experience former models (up to the rs500) never had raised black with the defaults. In fact they often need a +1 or even +2 on brightness to not crush blacks. Kris reported that some more recent models needed -1 as well, so it might have happened post rs500 that it became more frequent. It's good that you checked, that way you know you're not killing your on/off. Your contrast measurements look good, just a little bit on the low side for max dynamic, but it might be a meter issue, so that's why I was wondering. Also from what you are saying you are using PC Levels, not Video levels, so that might make a difference too. I set the JVC to HDMI standard and then the GPU to 0-255 and MadVR to 16-235, because I prefer to let MadVR do the dithering that having JVC doing it behind its back. That way I clip at 235 and am not wasting contrast in SDR. Levels are tricky, but you've checked them so no reason to believe there is anything wrong your end.
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This maynot be the right place to post but I thought manni or someone else might help me... Ive asked this question on some of the madvr threads but cant seem to get an answer... I have the new NX9, screen size is 145" diag curved Stewart ST130 micro perf. Im using the new dynamic madvr HDR to SDR version 49 which I just love. It is better than the new tone mapping on the NX9 and super bright I can run in low lamp. My problem is I just dont know how to set the target nits in madvr, I have asked this question but most come back saying try this or that and see what looks best. I was told for my screen and its gain of 1.2 I should use 80 target on the NX9, but I know of others that use 200 with a Z1. I have tried 80 which I say looks great, but last night I tried 200, but I dont see anything really change, however i dont know what to look for being so new to HDR. Manni or someone else can you please advise me what to look for or what to set the target nits to. Many thanks in advance and sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.
Hi Murray,
As Dylan said, you need to measure 100% white with a meter to know for sure the peak white value to use in MadVR.
You can estimate the value with the screen size, dimension, gain, lamp power, zoom ratio, etc but it's not easy. If a calibrator (or a screen calculator) has given you a value in fL, simply multiply that by 3 to get the rough value in nits, and use that.
Failing this, simply use 80nits if you're happy with that. If it feels too dark with some titles, use a lower value. If it looks too bright, use a higher value.
For example, watch a very dark film such as Ghost in the Shell, Blade Runner 2049, Goodfellas or Patriot Day. If the picture is too dark, then lower the target until it looks good in dark scenes in these films.
Then try a very bright film such as Starship Trooper, The Meg, Pacific rim or The Shallow. Look at highlights in bright scenes. If the scenes are too bright, and or if you lose too much highlights, then raise the target.
In the end, you should have settings that work equally well for both dark and bright scenes/films, but that's not only due to the target, the other parameters also play a part. It's way too complex to explain here.
The reason why you're not getting any answer in other threads is because this is experimental work. These are not support threads, because there is no public build out yet.
As I said, I will start a thread after a public build of madVR is released, once settings are not changing every day. In the meantime, please refrain from asking questions on madVR here, because it's taking time away from the experimental work and it's kind of off topic in this thread, especially as it's about experimental, not public builds.
Once a public build with the HDR tonemapping is out, you'll get support in the various madVR threads, and in the one I plan to start here. If you're subscribed to this thread, you'll know as soon as the madVR thread starts as I'll post a link here.
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Hi Murray,
As Dylan said, you need to measure 100% white with a meter to know for sure the peak white value to use in MadVR.
You can estimate the value with the screen size, dimension, gain, lamp power, zoom ratio, etc but it's not easy. If a calibrator (or a screen calculator) has given you a value in fL, simply multiply that by 3 to get the rough value in nits, and use that.
Failing this, simply use 80nits if you're happy with that. If it feels too dark with some titles, use a lower value. If it looks too bright, use a higher value.
For example, watch a very dark film such as Ghost in the Shell, Blade Runner 2049, Goodfellas or Patriot Day. If the picture is too dark, then lower the target until it looks good in dark scenes in these films.
Then try a very bright film such as Starship Trooper, The Meg, Pacific rim or The Shallow. Look at highlights in bright scenes. If the scenes are too bright, and or if you lose too much highlights, then raise the target.
In the end, you should have settings that work equally well for both dark and bright scenes/films, but that's not only due to the target, the other parameters also play a part. It's way too complex to explain here.
The reason why you're not getting any answer in other threads is because this is experimental work. These are not support threads, because there is no public build out yet.
As I said, I will start a thread after a public build of madVR is released, once settings are not changing every day. In the meantime, please refrain from asking questions on madVR here, because it's taking time away from the experimental work and it's kind of off topic in this thread, especially as it's about experimental, not public builds.
Once a public build with the HDR tonemapping is out, you'll get support in the various madVR threads, and in the one I plan to start here. If you're subscribed to this thread, you'll know as soon as the madVR thread starts as I'll post a link here.
I'll just add my $0.02 and say that with more recent versions of madVR, the real peak nits value doesn't seem to do much (as Murray noted). I would guess that it does in certain situations, but it no longer works as an overall brightness control.
I would follow Manni's advice and try the suggested movies.
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Some new info about updatet JVC Autocal Software V11 1.0? I try run it with my Spider5 (for GAMA) but when i try run and write it i got error on 24% :(.
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Some new info about updatet JVC Autocal Software V11 1.0? I try run it with my Spider5 (for GAMA) but when i try run and write it i got error on 24% :(.
No news and it might take a while, so be patient. I wouldn’t expect anything until after a new f/w is out. Meanwhile, you can use the color temp offsets and gains, as well as the gamma controls in the PJ (dark gamma, picture tone and bright gamma) to get very close to a good curve in most cases. If you need to tweak further, then you can use the 12-point manual controls in the autocal to adjust RGB as needed over the whole curve with a fairly good precision.
Personally, I’m not trying the autocal itself until they deliver a revised version that can restore an INIT file without bricking the PJ... But the above should be fine.
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No news and it might take a while, so be patient. I wouldn’t expect anything until after a new f/w is out. Meanwhile, you can use the color temp offsets and gains, as well as the gamma controls in the PJ (dark gamma, picture tone and bright gamma) to get very close to a good curve in most cases. If you need to tweak further, then you can use the 12-point manual controls in the autocal to adjust RGB as needed over the whole curve with a fairly good precision.
Personally, I’m not trying the autocal itself until they deliver a revised version that can restore an INIT file without bricking the PJ... But the above should be fine.
Hi Manni, can i usk you what worflow you are used in Calman calibrate your projector? Its looks greate.
Thank you
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Hi Manni, can i usk you what worflow you are used in Calman calibrate your projector? Its looks greate.
Thank you
I simply set 100% white to D65 and ran a Lightning LUT for MadVR with Calman. It's a small LUT (101 points) that takes less than 10 minutes and gives good results when the display is very linear, which was the case of the rs2000.
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Just to say that I've added ANSI contrast measurements taken at 110 hours in the contrast measurements section.
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Just to say that I've added ANSI contrast measurements taken at 110 hours in the contrast measurements section.
Is the section in the spreadsheet with the min/max and 2% mentioned attempting to address the meter inaccuracy of the Minolta? If so I think it is perhaps optimistic. Minolta T10 is quoted at +/-2% +/-1 displayed digit.
So at the very lowest measurement ranges the accuracy gets a bit wild... If it is only displaying 0.04 on the display I believe this could be anything between 0.03 LUX and 0.05 LUX (effectively +/- 25%)
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Is the section in the spreadsheet with the min/max and 2% mentioned attempting to address the meter inaccuracy of the Minolta? If so I think it is perhaps optimistic. Minolta T10 is quoted at +/-2% +/-1 displayed digit.
So at the very lowest measurement ranges the accuracy gets a bit wild... If it is only displaying 0.04 on the display I believe this could be anything between 0.03 LUX and 0.05 LUX (effectively +/- 25%)
Explanation of why the T10 measurements are reasonably accurate - if not in absolute values at least to compare the various settings and measurements made of previous models - are in the comments. The attached files also contain contrast measurements made with the Discus trained to my i1pro2 measuring off the screen. They are within 5% of the T10, on the conservative side.
Here is what I said:
"I didn’t move the meter for all the measurements as its range was enough to cover everything, given that the black floor with the DI didn’t go very low. Ideally, I’d have wanted to get a bit closer to the lens to lower the margin of error at the low end (I’m not happy with 0.04 lux for the lowest measurement, because we’re getting near the limit and a single significant digit change there makes a huge difference in the ratio) but it’s good enough for a first attempt. I usually measure on slow and wait at least 10-15 seconds for the reading to stabilize. If I find a way to place the tripod (possibly a different one) a bit closer to the lens, I might take another round. Overall I’m confident that these results are accurate (if not as far as their absolute readings, at least within the capability of the meter) because they are within 5% of those taken by the Discus in Calman (see below)."
I managed to bring the meter closer for the ANSI contrast measurements, though black of course doesn't go that low with these, in order to maximize the readings. I might remeasure at some point, but if I do it will probably be with the Discus, not the T10. I also provide measurements of the same contrast twice for different positions (auto1 and auto2) so that the reader can see that as inaccurate as it is, the T10 readings are at least repeatable.
Otherwise I agree that the information re accuracy is not useful to others. I'll take it out.
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Thank you for this positive, constructive comment. After all this hard work, it's good to know that someone cares enough to post their appreciation. It's posts like this that keep me going :)
Manni, with regard to this part of your post, I think it would be helpful for you to realize that there are many of us, myself included, who are *very* appreciative of all your posts, all the research and analysis, that you provide. We lack the in-depth knowledge and experience you bring to the forum, and so there's basically nothing we can contribute to many of these conversations. But we sit back, and learn what we can from your posts, as well as the equally informed replies from those who are in a position to do so.
So, don't interpret the lack of numerous replies or thanks as evidence that nobody cares about all your hard work! Keep it up!:D
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Thanks and no worries, I didn't mean this for anyone else, apologies if that's the way it came across. I'll edit that part of the post.
It's just that when someone goes through all this information and only finds a nitpicking comment to post that doesn't bring anything valuable to the discussion (this isn't the first time), about a point that was covered in my comments, I find that a bit rich. :)
And by the way, you often contribute in this forum and elsewhere, and are far more knowledgeable than you suggest, so feel free to do so here too. Also you frequently "like" posts, which is a good way to express appreciation and a positive frame of mind.
All constructive comments and contributions are welcome. I certainly hope that others will contribute to the thread, but I guess we will need JVC to deliver a working version of the Autocal for things to start properly.
If anyone is interested, I could explain how to use the manual gamma controls in the meantime.
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Manni, just to add to the compliments, but you are amazing at providing detailed instructions and helping out the community immensely. I nominate you for "Member of the Decade!" :)
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Manni, just to add to the compliments, but you are amazing at providing detailed instructions and helping out the community immensely. I nominate you for "Member of the Decade!" :)
Thanks Dave, sounds like an Austin Powers title. Nice, but a bit over the top :)
Have you had a chance to get your hands on a new JVC yet? Would love to hear your thoughts.
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Just to say that I had a healthy exchange of PMs with @Bobof.
I've edited my reply to him above as I understand the intention behind his comment better. He explained to me why he made it that way, and I explained to him why I reacted the way I did. We've put this behind us and hopefully we'll find a better way to interact in the future. He is certainly welcome to contribute his knowledge and experience to the thread, and I hope that he will.
I also agree that the information regarding accuracy in the contrast measurements table isn't useful to others. It's a leftover in my spreadsheet. I'll take it out.
I'd like to take this opportunity to explain why I reacted the way I did, clear the air and to lay some ground rules for a positive atmosphere in this thread.
I spend hundred of hours collecting this data and sharing it with others, for the benefit of the community.
This isn't my job. I don't work for JVC. I am just passionate about film and trying to get the most out of my projector.
Because I spend a lot of time doing this (frankly, more than I would want to), I'm trying to share my findings, hoping it will help others to save time and get better results.
I hope that it's useful, and some of you have kindly expressed this.
I may know a thing or two, but I don't believe that I know everything or that I'm always right. I have and will make mistakes.
Everything I know, I learned from others over the years, and mostly from knowledgeable, experienced people in various forums. I still learn all the time regarding this topic and I did recently from people like Bobof, Dominic Chan, Kris Deering, David Vaughn, Chad B, LovingDVD and many others. I am very grateful for the time, knowledge and experience they generously share with others.
If there is a factual mistake in the data that I share or in my comments, I do want it to be corrected. This is called AV Science Discussions, not AV Nonsense Discussions. You can decide about the best way to do so. You can contact me by PM, or you can post in the thread. Both are fine.
However, here is what I am asking for:
- Before posting a correction, please read all the information. I rarely post just measurements, they usually come with comments. Both the measurements and the comments are to be looked at together.
- If you are suggesting a correction, please be polite, constructive and respectful.
- If the only thing you have to say after reading the information shared here is negative or is nitpicking, it won't go well. If it's repeatedly negative, without any positive comment, it will be worse. That's just the way I am. If there is nothing of value for you and no gross misinformation here, no one is forcing you to follow the thread.
- If you question the data, please take your own measurements and provide them or offer a link towards such information, instead of questioning for the sake of it or asking me to do more work to prove or disprove your hypothesis. I've done my homework, and shared it. Please do yours and share it too, that's absolutely fine.
- Any useful information posted in the thread (measurements, data, how to, pictures) will be linked to in the second post, so that over time every significant contribution - from anyone - is made easily accessible.
- If you find the information useful, please say so. You don't have to post praise constantly, I'm not fishing for compliments, but you can "like" a post you find informative or useful if you don't feel like posting. It does help the poster (not necessarily me) to see that their contribution is appreciated.
- If you have on topic questions, don't hesitate to ask. There are lots of people following this thread who can and will help.
- If you can help, don't hesitate to contribute. My goal isn't to be the only one to provide advice here, on the contrary. Many knowledgeable people are following this thread. I hope that they will all contribute. It is a public, open forum.
- If you can provide your own data and measurements, don't hesitate to post them, even if they contradict mine. There are lots of differences between units, methodology, tools used and we don't all get the same results. Posting your own data will always be welcome and will always be useful. But please don't make contradicting claims without backing them up with data. I provide a lot of data. If you want to question it, provide your own, or a reference to data published elsewhere, and then we can discuss. That's the way science can progress.
- Again, criticism is fine as long as it's done in a polite, constructive and respectful way.
- Trolling is when you repeatedly post rude or negative comments, when you make an unprovoked personal attack, or are contradicting the data provided here without providing any data, reference or measurements to back up your claim.
- Any trolling, insulting, gratuitously negative comment will be removed and the poster will be warned.
- Any repeat offending and the poster will be banned from the thread, without further warning.
- Finally, I'm not perfect and I sometimes overreact or come across as patronizing, which isn't my intention. I might even have done so in this post. For this, I apologize. I will try to improve.
If we stick to these ground rules, I'm hoping that the thread will blossom with everyone's contributions. :)
Of course, getting a working version of the software will help even more. Hopefully, soon.
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Well, that happened faster than expected :)
Both the f/w and the Autocal software have been updated:
New firmware V2.01 (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000/)
Changelog:
・Added color profile exclusively to use with Panasonic UHD-BD player to obtain optimum HDR image quality.
・Specification change that enables each gamma adjustment setting whilst using auto tone mapping function
・Addition of new screens for screen adjustment mode
・Improved operation stability
New JVC Autocal software V1.10 (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000_calibrationsoft.html)
I'll take a look as soon as I can.
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Unfortunately for now it's a no go. :(
The new Autocal version needs the new f/w, and I can't get the RS2000 to detect my USB drive.
It's FAT32 formatted (freshly, with defaults), the f/w folder is the only folder in the drive, as per the instructions.
No file or folder name was modified.
I tried inserting it when the PJ is off, switching the PJ on, and tried to initiate the f/w update. Not detected.
I also tried to hot plug it, not detected either.
Initially, I was using a short USB extension for easy access, but I tried a direct connection and that makes no difference.
I tried with an active HDMI input and without an active HDMI input.
I'll try with another USB drive, otherwise I don't see what more I can do.
If anyone has success updating the f/w to V2.01, please let us know.
EDIT:
I tried the same USB Drive after a full power off cycle, it didn't help.
I tried a different USB drive (same FAT32 format, same update folder), and it worked right away, even hot-plugging, even with the short USB extension for easy access.
So for some reason it doesn't seem to like my Sandisk 16Gb thumbdrive that I'm using for calibration related duties.
It did like the old 8gb thumbdrive Sandisk Cruzer I took out of my Dune.
Time estimated: 20 minutes!
It is a slow drive... The three LEDs are flashing in sequence, from right to left, so all is good for now.
If your drive isn't detected and you've followed the instructions, then try another one.
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Well, that happened faster than expected :)
Both the f/w and the Autocal software have been updated:
New firmware V2.01 (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000/)
Changelog:
・Added color profile exclusively to use with Panasonic UHD-BD player to obtain optimum HDR image quality.
・Specification change that enables each gamma adjustment setting whilst using auto tone mapping function
・Addition of new screens for screen adjustment mode
・Improved operation stability
New JVC Autocal software V1.10 (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000_calibrationsoft.html)
I'll take a look as soon as I can.
Been waiting for this. Will solve the slow start up time several are having. Will solve the problem of reloading the INIT file for autocal. Adds the color profiles for the Panasonic players. It does not address the yellowing problem.
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Just to say that I had a healthy exchange of PMs with @Bobof.
Thanks for posting Manni. I had thought about posting in the thread after our PMs but I didn't want to add noise into the thread, and I was happy to take on board some of the points raised. Anyway, onwards and upwards; good luck with the autocal mission. :)
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I'd like to learn how to properly use autocal.
I am new to JVC and just bought a Spyder5. From what I understand, it's really only worth doing a gamma cal with a spyder5 due to it not being accurate enough for color.
I have not tried using autocal yet. Is it clear how to just tell it to do a gamma cal?
Also, I don't know anything about this INIT file in case I want or need to revert my calibration?
Can anyone give me like a few tips on these topics? Sorry if this is slightly off topic. I will actually be calibrating my cousins RS400 for the first time tomorrow, but I just got my NX5 and will be using autocal on it as well.
My past experience is just in using HCFR to do a grayscale white balance calibration and adjusting the RGB gain and offset and storing it in Custom 1 and 2 color temps.
For autocal, where does it store gamma calibrations and color calibrations? Can you run it for both high and low bulb and store different results to use in your user modes and installation modes?
Normally I learn this stuff just playing around, but I don't want to mess up anything too bad, especially when I don't even fully understand the reset procedure yet.
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Unfortunately for now it's a no go. :(
The new Autocal version needs the new f/w, and I can't get the RS2000 to detect my USB drive.
It's FAT32 formatted (freshly, with defaults), the f/w folder is the only folder in the drive, as per the instructions.
No file or folder name was modified.
I tried inserting it when the PJ is off, switching the PJ on, and tried to initiate the f/w update. Not detected.
I also tried to hot plug it, not detected either.
Initially, I was using a short USB extension for easy access, but I tried a direct connection and that makes no difference.
I tried with an active HDMI input and without an active HDMI input.
I'll try with another USB drive, otherwise I don't see what more I can do.
If anyone has success updating the f/w to V2.01, please let us know.
EDIT:
I tried the same USB Drive after a full power off cycle, it didn't help.
I tried a different USB drive (same FAT32 format, same update folder), and it worked right away, even hot-plugging.
So for some reason it doesn't seem to like my Sandisk 16Gb thumbdrive that I'm using for calibration related duties.
It did like the old 8gb thumbdrive I took out from my Dune.
Time estimated: 20 minutes!
It is a slow drive... The three LEDs are flashing in sequence, from right to left, so all is good for now.
If your drive isn't detected and you've followed the instructions, then try another one.
I checked with my one of my contacts at JVC. He said he saw the new autocal in action Wednesday.
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I checked with my one of my contacts at JVC. He said he saw the new autocal in action Wednesday.
Thanks Mike. You might have missed the end of my edit, the f/w update went fine when I tried a different USB Drive :)
The first drive is fine, so no idea why it wasn't detected.
Anyway, it took a while, but the update completed fine and the PJ switched itself off.
When I switched the PJ back on, the iris made a weird noise (hopefully a one-off) and I now have the new f/w and Autocal installed (see screenshots).
I'll give the Autocal a try ASAP, hopefully tonight.
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I'd like to learn how to properly use autocal.
I am new to JVC and just bought a Spyder5. From what I understand, it's really only worth doing a gamma cal with a spyder5 due to it not being accurate enough for color.
I have not tried using autocal yet. Is it clear how to just tell it to do a gamma cal?
Also, I don't know anything about this INIT file in case I want or need to revert my calibration?
Can anyone give me like a few tips on these topics? Sorry if this is slightly off topic. I will actually be calibrating my cousins RS400 for the first time tomorrow, but I just got my NX5 and will be using autocal on it as well.
My past experience is just in using HCFR to do a grayscale white balance calibration and adjusting the RGB gain and offset and storing it in Custom 1 and 2 color temps.
For autocal, where does it store gamma calibrations and color calibrations? Can you run it for both high and low bulb and store different results to use in your user modes and installation modes?
Normally I learn this stuff just playing around, but I don't want to mess up anything too bad, especially when I don't even fully understand the reset procedure yet.
Hi Sirmaster,
I and others will soon post some advice about using the Autocal now that we have (hopefully) a safe and working version.
In the meantime, please read the user manual linked to in the second post, as it will give you an answer to quite a few of these questions. Feel free to read any of the already "live" links in the index, as that might provide further relevant information.
I will post in the thread when I update one of the topics in the reserved posts, so just be patient! :).
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Thanks for posting Manni. I had thought about posting in the thread after our PMs but I didn't want to add noise into the thread, and I was happy to take on board some of the points raised. Anyway, onwards and upwards; good luck with the autocal mission. :)
Thanks and likewise :)
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I had a problem initially because the IP address had for some reason reverted to my rs500, which is still on the network. So I was getting an "OK" reply, but not for/from the right projector, which led to a model mismatch error (error in detecting the model)...
With the IP address pointing to the rs2000, there is no issue and the new Autocal seems to be ready to go. :)
Hopefully it won't revert to the rs500 IP address again, or I'll have to disconnect the rs500 when calibrating the rs2000, and vice-versa.
Both meters (Spyder 5 Pro and i1pro2) detected, I'll give it a try later...
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Thanks Mike. You might have missed the end of my edit, the f/w update went fine when I tried a different USB Drive :)
The first drive is fine, so no idea why it wasn't detected.
Anyway, it took a while, but the update completed fine and the PJ switched itself off.
When I switched the PJ back on, the iris made a weird noise (hopefully a one-off) and I now have the new f/w and Autocal installed (see screenshots).
I'll give the Autocal a try ASAP, hopefully tonight.
Yes, saw that after the fact. :) JVC always says to try another USB. I do not understand why some work and some don't.
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Yes, saw that after the fact. :) JVC always says to try another USB. I do not understand why some work and some don't.
No problem. I've updated the FAQ (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10392#msg10392) with the two minor issues I experienced today (one re the f/w update and the USB driver detection, the other with the mis-detection of my model due to the IP address reverting to my rs500).
Overall, especially if you have a USB driver that the JVC likes, the f/w update is a much nicer procedure than with older models. It takes a while, so you have to be patient, but it's straighforward.
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I did a first quick attempt for my rec-709 calibration (low lamp, iris -12, peak 65nits) with what should have, in theory, provided the best results:
- Gamma autocal with the Spyder 5 Pro facing the PJ
- Color only (gamut + white point) autocal with the i1pro2 facing the screen.
The gamma autocal result was decent but not great. Correcting 100% white manually did improve things, but still not the kind of results I'm used to get with the older models
The color autocal had one positive effect, it pushed my undersaturated red slightly closer to target, so I ended up with 99% gamut cover. Unfortunately, the error on 100% white was huge (3dE) and overall the calibration wasn't a massive improvement.
It's honestly not good enough to document, so while I have measurements I won't share them.
I'll wait to see if any experienced user can get good results.
One thing to keep in mind if you want to try with the i1pro2, it has to be on its plate when you select it, and you have to press the button right away to do a white calibration. Otherwise, the software will tell you it can't find the meter.
That's not ideal, it should first detect the meter, and then ask for a white calibration.
Also, with the i1pro2 about two feet from the screen and reading 65nits, it was not possible to get the meter within the box. I'll try with my HDR calibration, I might get better results with the iris fully open.
Mike, if JVC wants any details or data on these underwhelming results, please let me know how they want me to communicate them.
I'll make another attempt over the week-end if I can, but right now I am not convinced it's working as it should, or I might be missing something.
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It looks like one of the bugs in V1.0 might not have been fixed. [EDIT: doesn't seem to be the case after testing with SDR WCG calibration].
I tried to power the PJ off and remeasure after a restart, and the color cal (gamut and white point) results were significantly better.
Gamma and color temp was still off though, and significantly. 100% white is within 1dE, which is fine, but the color temp is very off below that. This Spyder5 used to give me good results with the rs500, so I don't think it's the culprit.
I'll make an attempt with my SDR WCG calibration (the baseline I used with madVR) to see if I get better results if I power off in between each autocal session.
If that's part of the issue and if JVC haven't corrected this, it's a bit disappointing.
There doesn't to be an issue with 4K input, one of the reported bugs in the 1.00 was that you needed a 1080p input for it to work.
I'll update the thread later if I get any interesting results with my SDR WCG calibration.
I did the SDR one selecting the new option to replicate gamma into all the other calibrations, but it's hard to know if it works or not given the poor results. I'll use individual this time.
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I'm happier with the SDR WCG calibration. Maybe the Autocal struggles at -12 / 65nits with the SDR rec-709 calibration, and is happier with the iris fully open? I did check with the Rec-709 calibration that none of the gamma steps readings were zero, and none were so not sure why it struggled as the meter was positioned optimally for that iris setting.
With my SDR WCG calibration, I get a minor gain in peak brightness / contrast and improvements across the range, including a minor increase in gamut cover (from 97% to 98% of P3), though red at 100% sat is still slightly undersaturated, which likely reflects a limitation of the native gamut. There doesn't seem to be any downsides, near black seems fine, the black floor isn't raised, but I haven't had the time to do a visual check with actual content.
I still struggle to get the i1pro2 into the positioning box, even with the iris fully open, I have no idea why because I can't really bring it closer to the screen without making it read its own shadow. But I'm happy with the results.
It's late so I'll post more tomorrow, but here are the colorchecker SG screenshots before autocal, after a gamma A/C with the Spyder 5 Pro and a color Autocal with the i1pro2, and after a madVR lightning LUT (101 points, less than 10 minutes).
I think that for this calibration, the Autocal results are very decent, with a max dE of 2.2 and an average of 0.9, to compare with a max of 5.9 and an average of 1.6 before the Autocal (which isn't that bad by the way, but clearly shows the need for calibration).
I didn't do any manual adjustment, not even 100% white to D65. That way you can see out of the box measurements at 165 hours, after the JVC Autocal and after madVR, without any manual interaction. I could improve things marginally but I thought it would be more interesting to post the "raw" results, to get an idea of what each stage brings.
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I've posted some advice for preparation (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10389#msg10389) in the basic section that should help those eager to get started to hit the ground running. I attached some screenshots and pictures to help with meter positioning.
I've added at the end of the post some advanced tips, especially for those using another software and reference meters to check a calibration and for those profiling a colorimeter to a reference spectro.
I've also updated the FAQ (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10392#msg10392) to reflect a couple of issues, especially regarding using the i1pro2 calibration at the beginning of a session. Make sure you read the FAQ if you hit any problem before posting. This, alongside with reading the JVC Autocal manual, should cover the most common issues and I'll keep updating it as we make progress.
Finally, I've added an important warning in the first post, so make sure you read it before doing anything else :)
Hope this helps, I'll try to post more over the week-end, hopefully to cover gamma and color calibration.
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One thing to keep in mind if you want to try with the i1pro2, it has to be on its plate when you select it, and you have to press the button right away to do a white calibration. Otherwise, the software will tell you it can't find the meter.
That's not ideal, it should first detect the meter, and then ask for a white calibration.
Also, with the i1pro2 about two feet from the screen and reading 65nits, it was not possible to get the meter within the box. I'll try with my HDR calibration, I might get better results with the iris fully open.
It's a shame they've not improved the meter setup for the i1pro2 when moving to V11. It was all a bit "afterthought" in its implementation in V10.
It seems V11 behaves in the same ways with the i1pro2 as V10. By far the most annoying behaviour for me is that you have to re-connect and re-calibrate the meter every time you go into the calibration mode, so if you've just done one calibration you have to get it back down off the tripod, put in back on the plate, and then back on the tripod again. If you're dextrous you can just about hold the meter onto the calibration tile with the tile rotated a few degrees without taking it off the tripod.
I think the positioning box for the i1pro2 readings from screen is completely bogus and serves no purpose. Measuring off screen without the diffuser you can't change the position of the meter within the box on screen - as you bring the meter closer to the screen it measures a smaller area of the screen, cancelling each other out. Any change in the position witnessed within JVC autocal will just be due to the meter reading either a different area of the screen with more or less variation across it, or measuring the screen at a slightly different angle. The only way to significantly affect the on screen "position" of the meter when facing the screen is just increase the light output somehow, which is kind of pointless as you're wanting to calibrate at a given iris setting and into a particular "slot" in the projector.
@Dominic Chan had a cute way of getting higher off screen readings by measuring using the i1pro(2)(?) off a white surface that was closer to the projector. That way the projector is set up "correctly", you're just moving the screen closer to concentrate the light. You'd really want that surface to be a screen sample if possible; though Dominic was using it mostly to overcome his lack of a diffuser for gamma measurements so I think he was just using any white surface.
Having said that, for just the colour autocal I'm not totally sure why it would make much difference. Even at 65 nits peak white you should get quite reasonable quality colour measures even for blue, so it might point more towards the maths in either autocal or the projector not being great, or the projector not being linear enough for the simple algorithms the colour autocal uses to work well.
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It's a shame they've not improved the meter setup for the i1pro2 when moving to V11. It was all a bit "afterthought" in its implementation in V10.
It seems V11 behaves in the same ways with the i1pro2 as V10. By far the most annoying behaviour for me is that you have to re-connect and re-calibrate the meter every time you go into the calibration mode, so if you've just done one calibration you have to get it back down off the tripod, put in back on the plate, and then back on the tripod again. If you're dextrous you can just about hold the meter onto the calibration tile with the tile rotated a few degrees without taking it off the tripod.
I think the positioning box for the i1pro2 readings from screen is completely bogus and serves no purpose. Measuring off screen without the diffuser you can't change the position of the meter within the box on screen - as you bring the meter closer to the screen it measures a smaller area of the screen, cancelling each other out. Any change in the position witnessed within JVC autocal will just be due to the meter reading either a different area of the screen with more or less variation across it, or measuring the screen at a slightly different angle. The only way to significantly affect the on screen "position" of the meter when facing the screen is just increase the light output somehow, which is kind of pointless as you're wanting to calibrate at a given iris setting and into a particular "slot" in the projector.
@Dominic Chan had a cute way of getting higher off screen readings by measuring using the i1pro(2)(?) off a white surface that was closer to the projector. That way the projector is set up "correctly", you're just moving the screen closer to concentrate the light. You'd really want that surface to be a screen sample if possible; though Dominic was using it mostly to overcome his lack of a diffuser for gamma measurements so I think he was just using any white surface.
Having said that, for just the colour autocal I'm not totally sure why it would make much difference. Even at 65 nits peak white you should get quite reasonable quality colour measures even for blue, so it might point more towards the maths in either autocal or the projector not being great, or the projector not being linear enough for the simple algorithms the colour autocal uses to work well.
Thanks for your feedback, I'm glad to see that your observations re the i1pro2 in relation to the positioning are the same as mine. 8)
Regarding the need to recalibrate the i1pro before every calibration (I agree it's cumbersome as it is implemented), I use the following trick (undocumented as my list is already too long, but I'll add it if you find it useful): I keep the i1pro on its tripod in position, I start Teamviewer on my iPad so as not to have to move my calibration laptop, and with one hand I hold the calibration tile against the i1pro2, with the other I select the i1pro2 on the autocal (on the iPad) and quickly press the measuring button. That way, at least I don't have to move the i1pro off its tripod and lose all the profiles etc. I use Teamviewer as well to monitor progress and control the software distantly. As long as a meter action isn't needed, that allows me to get more sunlight and watch less patterns :)
The SDR WCG calibration was OK even if not great, so I'll give the SDR rec-709 calibration another try when I can.
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The following additional sections are now live:
Basic: Calibration (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10390#msg10390)
Basic: Results and optional verification with another software
Advanced: (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10391#msg10391)Using a 3D LUT for Reference Calibration after the Autocal
(https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10408#msg10408)It's a bit of a brain dump, which I wrote fairly quickly after my initial attempts yesterday. It's likely to still contain typos and a few factual errors, so if you spot any please let me know either by PM or in the thread.
I added quite a few measurements, I'll try to add more later.
I just wanted to complete the basic section so that everyone can have a go and let us know their results. The full index is in the second post here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10383#msg10383).
Of course I'll update the thread when/if I post anything new or make any significant changes, but it might be a while as I need to catch up with work.
Good luck with the Autocal everyone :)
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Regarding the need to recalibrate the i1pro before every calibration (I agree it's cumbersome as it is implemented), I use the following trick (undocumented as my list is already too long, but I'll add it if you find it useful): I keep the i1pro on its tripod in position, I start Teamviewer on my iPad so as not to have to move my calibration laptop, and with one hand I hold the calibration tile against the i1pro2, with the other I select the i1pro2 on the autocal (on the iPad) and quickly press the measuring button. That way, at least I don't have to move the i1pro off its tripod and lose all the profiles etc. I use Teamviewer as well to monitor progress and control the software distantly. As long as a meter action isn't needed, that allows me to get more sunlight and watch less patterns :)
That's what I meant by if you're dextrous; it sounds like you use the same approach I do when I've used the I1pro2 in that way. It's a bit of a handful (at least for me with my micro-hands lol) to to grip the tile onto the meter (plus for this setup my meter is often up in the air fairly high up), and I'm always just a little bit sceptical that it is a particularly good approach (though I do it myself) because the i1pro2 does to wavelength calibration off the tile using the green LED, there is both a chance of the tile not being completely flat, and also some scope for light from the PJ to leak around as the calibration happens.
If the JVC autocal utility worked a bit more sensibly - just doing one calibration on the meter on demand - it wouldn't be so tempting to take these short cuts, it's the case of a bad workflow promoting slightly risky behaviour. When I'm trying to do stuff properly in other SW I usually shove the meter and tile under a black piece of cloth for the calibration measure, or at least press the hide button on the PJ to make the room darker.
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That's what I meant by if you're dextrous; it sounds like you use the same approach I do when I've used the I1pro2 in that way. It's a bit of a handful (at least for me with my micro-hands lol) to to grip the tile onto the meter (plus for this setup my meter is often up in the air fairly high up), and I'm always just a little bit sceptical that it is a particularly good approach (though I do it myself) because the i1pro2 does to wavelength calibration off the tile using the green LED, there is both a chance of the tile not being completely flat, and also some scope for light from the PJ to leak around as the calibration happens.
If the JVC autocal utility worked a bit more sensibly - just doing one calibration on the meter on demand - it wouldn't be so tempting to take these short cuts, it's the case of a bad workflow promoting slightly risky behaviour. When I'm trying to do stuff properly in other SW I usually shove the meter and tile under a black piece of cloth for the calibration measure, or at least press the hide button on the PJ to make the room darker.
Nah, if you make sure that the tile is completely flat against the i1pro2 (which does require pressure on opposite sides) there is zero risk of light contamination. I've done this for years, without any issue. If there is any light, the software detects it and tells you the calibration is invalid.
But I do have very large hands, and the ipro2 is at a convenient height here :).
I agree 100% that it's not ideal and there are many ways to do it better, but I was just offering possible workarounds.
I also think that JVCs approach, while clearly an afterthought, is also to make sure that the meter has been calibrated before each calibration. Otherwise they would have to use a timer or some other way to enforce a calibration within the theoretical 240 minutes window (in reality, it starts drifting much faster than that). They probably wouldn't want to risk the user forgetting to do a cal.
The JVC development team is very small. I think we are very lucky to have, by far, the best free OEM calibration tool offered on any other consumer projector (possibly consumer panel, I don't use them).
As long as the software is usable, I'd rather have them concentrate on providing the best results, or improving important things such as the positioning window for the i1pro2, rather than giving them a hard time for ergonomics. When the software is 100% functional, then we can try to get them to improve interface stuff.
But if you think about it, what they are offering is already very good.
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@Bobof: I've added the i1pro2 improvements request at the end of the second section in the feedback to JVC/suggested improvements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10385#msg10385) list. Please let me know if that suits you.
Once we've gathered enough feedback from everyone, I plan to ask Mike to forward this list to JVC. :)
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@Bobof: I've added the i1pro2 improvements request at the end of the second section in the feedback to JVC/suggested improvements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10385#msg10385) list. Please let me know if that suits you.
Once we've gathered enough feedback from everyone, I plan to ask Mike to forward this list to JVC. :)
Looks good to me; I know it is an implementation detail but if they considered just adding the hooks necessary to do readings via ArgyllCMS they'd get "free" (they should really come to an arrangement with Graeme) updated meter support, with K10A, i1d3, Jeti spectro, etc. I think he's already working on supporting the new Spyder X. Doesn't help with the Discus but I've pretty much concluded that it's a nice tool that's never going to get mass-market appeal.
Agree with all the previous points (as I say, I resort to the calibration tile death grip myself)... My suspicion of the technique comes from having had a few failed calibration attempts doing this, which then just raised the spectre of doubt. But there's no doubt I'll carry on doing it that way, so I'm obviously not that bothered...! :)
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Argyll support is a great idea, though unlikely to be implemented. I’ll add it to the list where I mention wider meter support. I’ll also add the possibility to use the new remote control mode in Lightspace/Colorspace as an alternative, but I can’t see these agreeing to help competition that way (Argyll more likely than Light Illusion anyway). Thanks. [EDIT:done!]
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...
When I switched the PJ back on, the iris made a weird noise (hopefully a one-off) and I now have the new f/w and Autocal installed (see screenshots).
I had the same thing happen, but also some other perhaps USB related issues; maybe order of procedure?
First USB I used was detected, and once I started the update, the three lights flashed in sequence, as expected.
Came back into the room 20 min later to find all three lights flashing. Update manual says "update error; request for repair with your authorized dealer." Gulp.
The machine wouldn't respond to the remote or to the power button. Turned off power on the power conditioner, waited 10s, turned power on ... voila, machine responded to remote and turned on: still on 1.17.
I wondered if it was the USB drive, so used a different one, but I also changed the procedure.
In the instructions, it says plug in the drive, then turn the machine on. First time thru, it was already on to check the version, so I left it on. It had seemingly detected the update as it asked about confirming 1.17 -> 2.01.
This time, I turned the machine off first, plugged in the usb drive, then turned it on and went thru the same procedure. Seemed identical, all three lights sequentially flashing in sequence ... but this time it completed, and turned itself off. When I turned it back on, now says 2.10.
So: was it the drive, or is it necessary to have the machine off when plugging in the drive? Not sure, but that might be something to highlight in the instructions.
Also, that the 3 flashing lights do NOT necessarily mean you need to call for service. Thank goodness.
.. Mike
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Glad you got it back to life!
I don’t think it’s necessary to have the USB drive in before powering the PJ, but it’s certainly what JVC recommends in their instructions, so I would recommend to follow them. I did try that with my first drive, and it didn’t help it to be recognised.
My second drive was detected right away and I hotplugged it. Still the f/w update went fine, and when I switched the PJ back on, 2.01 was installed.
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Manni,
For color calibration, is it more accurate the i1pro2 than the spyder 5?
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Manni,
For color calibration, is it more accurate the i1pro2 than the spyder 5?
Yes, discussed in detail in Which Meter to Use? (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10387#msg10387) and in the Preparation (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10389#msg10389) and Calibration (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10390#msg10390) sections.
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No problem. I've updated the FAQ (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10392#msg10392) with the two minor issues I experienced today (one re the f/w update and the USB driver detection, the other with the mis-detection of my model due to the IP address reverting to my rs500).
Overall, especially if you have a USB driver that the JVC likes, the f/w update is a much nicer procedure than with older models. It takes a while, so you have to be patient, but it's straighforward.
The firmware up date time will vary, depending on what previous version you had in your projector. So if your firmware is 1.17, it will take longer to update, than if your firmware version was 1.20.
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The firmware up date time will vary, depending on what previous version you had in your projector. So if your firmware is 1.17, it will take longer to update, than if your firmware version was 1.20.
Well, I was updating from the latest V1.20, so if the shortest possible time is that long, people with earlier versions have to be even more patient :)
It think it also has to do with the USB drive speed. Mine was super old (and slow) as my more recent (and faster) one wasn't detected. There might be quite a few factors at play...
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Hi Manni,
Thanks for your reply over in the other forum's NX owners thread about my calibration.
So I decided to just try out a full (gamma + color) autocal on my NX5 with my Spyder5. Doing so actually fixed my high bulb issues completely (at least to my eye). I believe this really did take me 90% of the way there to a decently calibrated image.
I found that I could most easily see a before/after comparison by moving my manual lens aperture between -4 and -3. At -4 I was seeing the original un-calibrated image, and then moving it to -3 the color would very noticeably change to my calibrated result.
I am still a little bit confused though on the Individual vs Reflect to All option. As I understand, on my NX5 only Lamp mode changes and lens aperture changes (in 4 groups) will not apply the autocal result.
So what I did was created a User1 picture mode (HDR color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, low bulb) and then I ran the autocal on that.
Then I created another picture mode User2 (HDR color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, high bulb) and then I ran autocal on that.
I understand I needed to do this because of the lamp mode change.
But now I also have 2 more picture modes, User3 (rec709 color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, low bulb) and User4 (rec709 color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, high bulb).
So from what I understand, these are already calibrated for me (since they dont have any different lens aperture settings) and I can't do anything with autocal to improve them without overwriting my HDR color profile calibration.
But color mode shouldn't necessarily change the calibration results anyways right?
I only use rec709 for when I do things like play YouTube videos, since all my local content is played through madVR and I have selected "this display is calibrated to BT2020", so as I understand, madVR puts my rec709 SDR video into the BT2020 container and it should come out looking correct with my NX5 in HDR color profile for both HDR and SDR video in madVR.
I guess let me know if my assumptions here are correct or if you see sometime that I should be doing differently, thanks!
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Hi Sirmaster,
Glad to hear that the JVC Autocal resolved your problem. Your Spyder 5 must be a good one, which is great news :)
Please read the calibration section (link in post 2) as it will answer most of your questions (assuming you've also read the JVC Autocal manual).
Lens aperture doesn't affect gamma calibration. It only affect color calibration. As you don't have a filter and have already calibrated high lamp and low lamp, yes gamma should be done for your SDR calibrations, and color should be done if the iris range is the same, otherwise you will have to redo them.
Reflect to all only applies to gamma, not to color.
It is possible that things work differently on an N5, please let us know if it was the case.
As I explained, we won't discuss madVR here as it's a complex subject and it would derail the thread. There are other threads I mentioned that will be a better place for support regarding this. I might open a madVR thread after the next public build is released. That would be a better place to discuss this in more details.
Others might have further comments of course, especially other N5 users.
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I only use rec709 for when I do things like play YouTube videos, since all my local content is played through madVR and I have selected "this display is calibrated to BT2020", so as I understand, madVR puts my rec709 SDR video into the BT2020 container and it should come out looking correct with my NX5 in HDR color profile for both HDR and SDR video in madVR.
Regarding this point specifically, I misread it earlier and thought you were talking about 3D LUTs. There are two issues with this approach which isn't madVR specific:
1) Although you can ask madVR to convert everything to BT2020, it's not advised with a projector because you are not optimizing calibration for each content. Usually, you will want the SDR rec-709 calibration to hit a peak of around 50-60nits, and the HDR calibration to hit as high as you can, with black floor and contrast always to compromise with peak brightness. If you use your HDR for both, that means that you have far less contrast and a higher black floor than you would get with a separate SDR rec-709 calibration with the iris closed down to reach 50-60nits.
2) This might be the reason why you can't create a separate color calibration for each, because you're using the same iris setting. If you were setting the manual iris to a lower setting in SDR than in HDR (ideally in a different range, so if HDR is at 0 then set the iris at -4 or below, as you have observed this is a different calibration), then you would be able to run your SDR color calibration (iris at -4 or lower) separately from the HDR color calibration (iris open).
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If the only reason is brightness control then I think I am OK.
My 140" 1.0 gain screen according to my light meter measurement is 19fL (65nit) in low lamp, iris 0 which is what I am using for SDR content. Maybe a tad bright, but I like a bright image.
Then for HDR content I have madVR kick the bulb into high mode, still with iris at 0 and get 24fL and I have my madVR set to 80nit peak.
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If the only reason is brightness control then I think I am OK.
My 140" 1.0 gain screen according to my light meter measurement is 19fL (65nit) in low lamp, iris 0 which is what I am using for SDR content. Maybe a tad bright, but I like a bright image.
Then for HDR content I have madVR kick the bulb into high mode, still with iris at 0 and get 24fL and I have my madVR set to 80nit peak.
As explained, it's not just for brightness. With the settings above, you are sacrificing black floor (if not using the DI) and native contrast in SDR by choosing a target (19fL) that is too high. The standard is 14-16fL, and as you don't have much headroom for HDR (80nits is OK but not that much), I would personally set the peak in HDR to 12-14fL, no more than 16fL if you like it bright, so that you'll get a better black floor and native contrast in SDR, less DI artifacts if/when using the DI, and more of a difference when watching HDR. Going from 19fL to 24fL isn't a big difference, you're bringing SDR and HDR closer that way, by showing SDR too bright (assuming you have a dedicated room and no ambient light).
If you were setting SDR to reference, going from 12-14Fl to 24fL would not only be more "correct", it would also enhance the difference between the two. You'll get a better SDR (better black floor, better native contrast, less artificact if/when using the DI) and more visible improvements with HDR.
Now of course if it's about preference and you prefer a bright image at the expense of other elements, keep it (too) bright :)
If you only have these two calibrations, then color and gamma will be using different tables (low lamp / high lamp) so you can optimize them separately with autocal. But if you need to make a difference between two calibrations that use low lamp, using an iris setting fully open and the other at -4 or more would allow you to optimize them separately, though I'm not sure why that would be needed.
I go from 60nits post cal with the iris at -12 in SDR (-13 would be too dim at 40-45nits) and close to 48,000:1 native on/off with pretty much zero DI artifacts to 115nits with the iris fully open (both in low lamp, I could get 150nits in high lamp) in HDR. This 1:2 ratio between SDR and HDR is pretty good and both are (almost) correct/ideal (though I would take more nits in HDR if I could with low lamp, ideally around 150nits).
The main downside of HDR with iris fully open is the raised black floor and the reduced native on/off (30,000:1) as the DI isn't usable (to me) due to the too many artifacts with the iris fully open. So I'm eagerly waiting for JVC to fix the DI, hopefully in the next f/w update as they confirmed they were working on it. I certainly wouldn't use iris fully open in SDR if I didn't have to.
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As explained, it's not just for brightness. With the settings above, you are sacrificing black floor (if not using the DI) and native contrast in SDR by choosing a target (19fL) that is too high. The standard is 14-16fL, and as you don't have much headroom for HDR (80nits is OK but not that much), I would personally set the peak in HDR to 12-14fL, no more than 16fL if you like it bright, so that you'll get a better black floor and native contrast in SDR, less DI artifacts if/when using the DI, and more of a difference when watching HDR. Going from 19fL to 24fL isn't a big difference, you're bringing SDR and HDR closer that way, by showing SDR too bright (assuming you have a dedicated room and no ambient light).
If you were setting SDR to reference, going from 12-14Fl to 24fL would not only be more "correct", it would also enhance the difference between the two. You'll get a better SDR (better black floor, better native contrast, less artificact if/when using the DI) and more visible improvements with HDR.
Now of course if it's about preference and you prefer a bright image at the expense of other elements, keep it (too) bright :)
If you only have these two calibrations, then color and gamma will be using different tables (low lamp / high lamp) so you can optimize them separately with autocal. But if you need to make a difference between two calibrations that use low lamp, using an iris setting fully open and the other at -4 or more would allow you to optimize them separately, though I'm not sure why that would be needed.
I go from 60nits post cal with the iris at -12 in SDR (-13 would be too dim at 40-45nits) and close to 48,000:1 native on/off with pretty much zero DI artifacts to 115nits with the iris fully open (both in low lamp, I could get 150nits in high lamp) in HDR. This 1:2 ratio between SDR and HDR is pretty good and both are (almost) correct/ideal (though I would take more nits in HDR if I could with low lamp, ideally around 150nits).
The main downside of HDR with iris fully open is the raised black floor and the reduced native on/off (30,000:1) as the DI isn't usable (to me) due to the too many artifacts with the iris fully open. So I'm eagerly waiting for JVC to fix the DI, hopefully in the next f/w update as they confirmed they were working on it. I certainly wouldn't use iris fully open in SDR if I didn't have to.
Well currently I am seeing DI artifacts (massive blooming and yellowing) at essentially any capped DI level. I mean maybe if I really took my iris to -10 or less and enabled the DI, but that is just too dim for my preference for SDR (plus it's only going to get dimmer as my bulb ages) so I also kinda of find that unacceptable for me.
I will have to keep playing with the settings, but so far I have them at what I have them at because it looks best to me. My only concern before was whether there was something wrong about making my SDR content output in BT2020 color space with madVR as opposed to switching madVR to rec709 and the projector to rec709 space when playing SDR.
I certainly don't see a difference there, but I am new to using these different color spaces so I wasn't sure whether that was an appropriate way to run things.
I mean, my HDR is already as bright as it can be at 24 fL with the bulb on high and the iris wide open. All I can do it seems from your recommendation is to close my iris a little on SDR to bring the 19fL down to closer to 16fL. I've played with that, but I didn't like how dim it looked to me.
But either way, I don't see myself ever using the DI as the artifacts are way too distracting to me. I also don't personally hold much hope for JVC "fixing" it with firmware based on their prior firmware update history but we will just have to wait and see what happens. If they do fix it then I will certainly use it.
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Manni I believe the gamma drift change issue using the DI on auto 1/2 on the new JVCs has been corrected. I had to have my NX9 replaced v.1.80. My new NX9 installed yesterday I was cheching out for issues and the bad white titles on black during fadeout/fade-in remained steady (no iris flicker) and the white credits remained total white, no yellowing, it looks very very nice to me!
However the RGB 24 8bit/12bit bug still remains, do they just not understand this is WRONG!?><)(*&^%
I have reported it again :(
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Manni I believe the gamma drift change issue using the DI on auto 1/2 on the new JVCs has been corrected. I had to have my NX9 replaced v.1.80. My new NX9 installed yesterday I was cheching out for issues and the bad white titles on black during fadeout/fade-in remained steady (no iris flicker) and the white credits remained total white, no yellowing, it looks very very nice to me!
However the RGB 24 8bit/12bit bug still remains, do they just not understand this is WRONG!?><)(*&^%
I have reported it again :(
Interesting on the DI!
One other criticism Manni and others have reported is that the fade-to-black seemed a bit limited relative to the prior generation of Projectors. Does it seem like this has improved as well, along with the yellow/gamma shift problem?
And how is it on end credits - very noticeable as on the prior generation, or minimal, as in the current generation with previous firmware?
Thanks.
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Its absolutly fine on end credits these days unlike the past models. I have no issues on my NX9 about fade to black, its fantastic, however I cant comment on the NX5 or 7 as I havent seen them.
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Manni I believe the gamma drift change issue using the DI on auto 1/2 on the new JVCs has been corrected. I had to have my NX9 replaced v.1.80. My new NX9 installed yesterday I was cheching out for issues and the bad white titles on black during fadeout/fade-in remained steady (no iris flicker) and the white credits remained total white, no yellowing, it looks very very nice to me!
However the RGB 24 8bit/12bit bug still remains, do they just not understand this is WRONG!?><)(*&^%
I have reported it again :(
Hi Murray,
Thanks for reporting this.
This is great news and it sounds like a step in the right direction.
I'm preparing a report for JVC so that the other issues, especially blooming on highlights against dark background, can be resolved. It would also be great if they could close the iris further for us rs1000/rs2000 users, because the black floor is higher compared to older models. This is why there is less pumping on credits with the new DI implementation, but frankly I don't care about pumping on credits. I want better fade to black, that lasts for more than 1-2 secs. On the rs500, fade to black was good for at least 5 secs.
Did you check the MI:Fallout example I gave in my mini-review of the rs2000 (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10384#msg10384) (it's one amongst many)? Look at the car headlights during the scene starting at 00:05:57, with the DI on and the manual iris fully open (what most people use for HDR). Pause, then bring the menu up, and look at the original picture (what you would see without the DI, if the iris was on manual). Bring the menu down, and you'll see how the DI blooms the highlights, especially in HDR with the iris fully open. It's much less noticeable if the iris is closed to -7 or more.
Warning: only do this if you care about keeping the original detail in the picture, and overall picture quality. If you love the DI as it is, don't look for this. Once you've seen it, you'll see it everywhere. That's why I leave the DI off for now with HDR content, but I've used the DI in SDR for ages without any issue, and even in HDR before we got better tonemapping. It took me a while to notice the picture degradation on HDR highlights caused by the DI.
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Sorry Manni I dont have that film to check.
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Sorry Manni I dont have that film to check.
No problem. Do you have The Meg or 2001 - A Space Odyssey? I plan to list timecodes for these as well.
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no sorry Ive just started to collect 4K
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no sorry Ive just started to collect 4K
That explains why you're happy with the DI :)
If you want to know what I'm talking about, please give me a list of a few titles and I'll give you an example from these.
If you want to continue enjoying the DI in HDR, don't ask. :)
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I believe good scenes to test are in The Greatest Showman when Jenny Lind is on stage singing. Her dress blooms out quite severely with the DI.
Time stamps are 49:25 and 49:41. Probably a whole bunch more times in this whole scene too.
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Long read through a fascinating thread. Just got my dedicated 100% light controlled home theater complete with a x590r projector installed. This is my first projector ever running everything through a dedicated HTPC with Madvr. I know this is not a Madvr thread, but I noticed my image looks a little off with the factory settings. Still looks great, but I realized a callibration is needed, leading me here.
@SirMaster: Can you please let me know where you bought your Spyder5? Sounds like you got a decent one and I figured since they are all MSRP right now, I'd rather just take the pie in the sky chance that I get a good one like yours.
My second question is whether you noticed an improvement in your colors with the spyder autocal. Manni is crystal clear in his FAQ to not be so darned cheap and buy an x-rite i2 pro for color, but I am wondering if the spyder 5 did more harm than good. Since I have an entry level projector, I cannot justify the $1k price tag for a i2 right now if the spyder does a good enough job.
Anyway, I appreciate the great thread and look forward to a autocal'd projector shortly.
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Hi Mark,
The Spyder can provide good results with color, but it’s hard to know if you don’t have another meter to check the results. So if you can’t justify an i1pro2, you might want to consider getting an i1display Pro, which isn’t supported by the Autocal but will allow you to check your color calibration with a free software such as HCFR if you don’t want to buy a paid for software, and possibly create a custom color profile to correct the Spyder errors.
Where you buy the Spyder doesn’t make any difference. It’s a lottery, and from the same reseller, and the same batch, you can get a very good one and an appalling one. Just get the best price and buy an express, not a pro, especially if you have a dedicated room.
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Thanks Manni, I did read you recommend the express, so I will go with this.
The es-2000 can be had on ebay but apparently you need to buy a custom mount.
In terms of color best practices, you recommend an i1 pro2 and using HFCR instead of autocal? I've heard HFCR has a pretty steep learning curve, but I'm pregnant with the home theater at this point so I can't quit now.
On your projector using the autocal and i1 pro2, did it do a good job against HFCR baseline (my understanding of your post below).
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You can't have just an i1pro2, it's not usable on its own for gamma. It can be used for color, but you really want a colorimeter (profiled or not to the i1pro2) to do gamma calibration. The main use of the i1pro2 is color calibration and/or profiling a colorimeter for gamma work and faster measurements.
I wouldn't recommend using HCFR on its own, even with an i1 displaypro, simply because it's really time consuming to do a good gamma calibration. But if you have lots of time, of course you can get very good results with HCFR, just not with only an i1pro2. If you use only one meter with HCFR, get an i1pdisplay Pro, as it will allow you to do gamma and color.
Here is what I suggest: wait until you feel your PJ needs a calibration, get a Spyder 5 Express and run the Autocal. If you're good, enjoy, if you feel like the color calibration is worse, or if you'd like to make sure that it isn't, then decide between an i1pro2 (supported by the Autocal) and an i1display Pro (not supported by the Autocal) to improve color.
Alternatively, only run a gamma autocal with the Spyder and forget about a color calibration. :)
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Thanks. I figured gamma was my main problem. Any HDR content seems way too dark right now. I used Javs HDR mapping from avsforum to hopefully solve this, but instead it made it way darker. I tried adjusting the target nits and the brightness gain was marginal to non-existent.
My plan is to run the autocal, and then use Dominic Chan's settings (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2739737-official-jvc-dla-rs420-dla-x570r-owners-thread-83.html#post56989078) (who posts here) as follows. I might just invest in an es-2000 for the color to ensure it is done right. I can read from your FAQ you recommend this for color checking, but is an es-2000 autocal color check enough or do I need to do additional color checking with HFCR. In other words, do you like the es-2000 JVC autocal on its own with regards to color checking.....
THanks again for responding to my noob posts. Your FAQ is pretty thorough I am just a little confused as to what I have to do post-autocal in terms of additional settings adjustments when using the spyder for gamma, and the i1 pro2 for color.
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If the ES-2000 works with the Autocal (I don't have any first hand experience with this, only reporting it's supposed to work, it's not officially supported) it should be fine on its own for color and there should be no need to use HCFR. At least that's the case with the i1pro2.
I'm not sure that your issue is autocal related though because HDR content shouldn't be too dark with the right settings. You're talking about target nits, so I assume you're using madVR, but that setting has little impact on picture brightness. Also Javs curves can't be used when madVR is doing the tonemapping, you need to use an SDR calibration.
I would try to get good results in passthrough first, to rule out your madVR pixel shader tonemapping settings. When using the JVC Auto Tonemapping with a disc containing valid HDR metadata (check that the JVC reports valid maxCLL/maxFALL), you should get very good results, especially if you adjust the auto slider in the PQ HDR settings to get the brightness you need.
If you can get good results like this, then your issue is more probably that you're using the wrong madVR settings, or the wrong base calibration in the JVC, but that's OT here. I plan to start a thread on the HDR calibration for madVR at some point, most likely once the next madVR public build is released. Make sure you watch this topic, I'll post here when it's created.
In the meantime, I'd relax and use passthrough with the JVC auto tonemapping, and I'd put the Autocal aside until you can assess whether your issue is calibration related or not. :)
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So I should reset the Projector to factory defaults and let it run stock with regards to both SDR and HDR.
I was following Dominic Chans initial settings, and that is the only change I made. From my experience with new displays, I've always found the avsforums had good starting points for best practices /settings for mass produced commercial products. I am aware there is variations between units in everything you buy.
Anyway, I already bought the Spyder5 so I might as well try that. I don't want to hijack the thread anymore than I have, but I believe I need to get back to basics before I come back here. My head is going to explode trying to understand some of this; I am just not satisfied right now the picture out of the box, which brought me here.
My understanding of the consensus was that you run Natural for SDR and HDR for HDR content after running autocals. I am way out of my league right now on this forum and will show myself out. Thanks again.
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Don't worry about being out of your league, we've all been there :)
I only realize now that you have an old model... My fault, I didn't catch this in your first post.
All the advice I gave you is irrelevant as the x590 might not support the same meters. You should be able to use the Spyder 5 with an older version of the autocal, but it won't support V11. It might support the i1pro2/ES2000, I'm not sure. You need to check what the Autocal for your model supports.
You should really post in the old calibration thread, for the old models, where Dominic does a great job. Our whole conversation here was off topic :)
Good luck!
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I use ES2000 and its works in Calman and in lastes version of JVC AutoCal too...
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I use ES2000 and its works in Calman and in lastes version of JVC AutoCal too...
Thanks for the confirmation :)
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@SirMaster: Can you please let me know where you bought your Spyder5? Sounds like you got a decent one and I figured since they are all MSRP right now, I'd rather just take the pie in the sky chance that I get a good one like yours.
My second question is whether you noticed an improvement in your colors with the spyder autocal. Manni is crystal clear in his FAQ to not be so darned cheap and buy an x-rite i2 pro for color, but I am wondering if the spyder 5 did more harm than good. Since I have an entry level projector, I cannot justify the $1k price tag for a i2 right now if the spyder does a good enough job.
I know this is late now. I got my Spyder5 from B&H, but yeah it doesn't matter where you get it from.
As far as the results I got from color autocal, I can only so far describe it as this:
My NX5 stock out of the box low bulb mode looks great. By great, I mean that the color in my test movie scenes that I am intimately familiar with seeing on a known well-calibrated display looks as far as I can tell, the same.
High bulb however looked very noticeably different and wrong to me. It had a clear greenish tint to it and not enough red. I could easily compare by simply toggling between low and high bulb and seeing the color clearly shift.
After running autocal for both low and high bulb mode, I was able to easily compare before/after results by changing my iris between -4 and -3. -3 being my calibrated result (since I ran the calibration at iris 0) and -4 being the stock, before-calibrated result (since calibrations are done in groups of 4 iris positions)
I noted that the low bulb mode barely changed at all from the color autocal. This is a good thing as it already looked correct.
However, the big difference after autocal that I now noticed is that my high bulb mode looks exactly like low bulb mode, except of course brighter.
The fact that low bulb already looked good, before autocal, and autocal barely changed it and the fact hat high bulb went from looking somewhat poor, to looking great and looking just like low bulb simply gave me confidence that autocal and my spyder5 did their job well.
However, I cannot claim what accuracy my autocal result actually is. Only that to my eyes (and the eyes of another seasoned veteran AVS member who was there) the results look great. Again, these are subjective opinions on the result with the only frame of reference is having seen these movie scenes on a known well-calibrated display.
Anyways, that's my experience on it, and i would never go back to the stock color of my high bulb mode.
I do want to somehow show the results that I got and I may try to make a comparison video showing how the color changes before/after autocal. However I do not know how well this comparison will show up on video or in photo, so I first need to see if I can get an accurate representation of what I see with my eyes vs what you will be able to see in a video that I can capture. If it looks like an accurate representation, then I will post it.
At the end of the day, you should get a spyder5 for gamma calibration anyways. There is no harm then in trying to use it for color calibration as long as you make sure you have your calibration backup (init) file. Who knows, you may love the results as I did, and isn't that really what matters? (that *you* love how it looks).
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Hi Everyone,
Just wanted to know if i can use the Xrite i1 Pro UVcut REV D for Jvc Autocal. I can get the device cheap just not sure if it will work for just color not gamma. I have he Spyder 5 pro for GAMMA only.
Please let me know before i purchase.
Thanks in advance.
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I believe you need the Pro2 version at least to work with auto cal. You may be able to use another calibration software to use that meter for the color calibration and use the Spyder for the gamma using auto cal.
Manni has a great first page with just about every question you might have answered. If you haven’t try looking that over. There’s a specific section on meters.
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Hi Everyone,
Just wanted to know if i can use the Xrite i1 Pro UVcut REV D for Jvc Autocal. I can get the device cheap just not sure if it will work for just color not gamma. I have he Spyder 5 pro for GAMMA only.
Please let me know before i purchase.
Thanks in advance.
Yes, for JVC Autoval will works only Spyder5 or i1Pro2. I use OEM i1Pro2 who works perfect and cost less than original.
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Yes I have read the start of the thread and Manni states it will work with the i1 pro just might need to re initialise it more than the pro 2. I will only be using it for colour as I have the spyder 5 pro for gamma only.
Thanks.
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Yes with others software like Calman this will works but its not for free.
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Yes with others software like Calman this will works but its not for free.
Although I haven’t tried it personally the original i1pro is supposed to work with the JVC Autocal, though it’s not supported officially. It can only be used for color due to the even more limited range compared to the i1pro2 (300nits max vs 1200nits).
I can’t recommend buying it, but if people have one they can try it. I would try to see which results I get with the Spyder first, as an i1pro might not be necessary. My old Spyder4 needed barely any correction when used with the Autocal V6 on the rs500.
I recommend getting an i1pro2 basic if possible for color work in V11, or using an i1display pro or better with another software and possibly correct the spyder errors, but that’s an advanced procedure.
There are free software that support all the x-rite family, HCFR or DisplaYCAL for example.
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@Manni,
I read in doom9 thread about you saying that you ideally should have separate calibration for rec709 and rec2020.
I was wondering this about my setup. So the mode that I had my NX5 in when I ran autocal was HDR color profile, D65 color temp, Gamma 2.2. But of course the autocal applies to all color profiles and all color temps and all gamma values.
In madVR when I watch HDR I have the calibration tab set to, this display is calibrated to bt2020, and I have the report bt2020 to display enabled.
However, now I am wondering about what is the best way that I should be playing my rec709 content?
The way I see it I had 2 ways that I tried this. The first way is just to keep the projector in the same HDR color mode, and let madVR map the 709 content to bt2020 since the calibration in madVR is telling it that my display is calibrated for bt2020. But am I supposed to uncheck the report bt2020 to display checkbox when playing rec709 content?
The other method I had was to switch the projector's color profile to rec709 and to switch madVR calibration option to this display is calibrated to rec709.
Is there some advantage or reason that one way would be better than the other? I am not concerned about the switching projector settings and switching madVR settings as I can have that all automated through madVR profile groups and network control scripts.
So put simply, given that I use autocal and only own a splyder5, should I switch my projector and my madVR to rec709 for my rec709 content, or should I just let madVR map my rec709 content to bt2020 and leave my projector always in the HDR color profile. And finally given that answer, when should I have checked and unchecked report bt2020 to display option?
Thanks!
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I'm going to leave the madVR part of your question out as that's off topic, I plan to start a thread on the subject when the next madVR build is released and I'll explain all this then. But regarding the need for two different calibrations, here is the reason why you should do so:
- When playing HDR content, you usually have the iris fully open (low lamp or high lamp) so that you can get the max brightness you can get in that mode. This raises the black floor and reduces the native on/off contrast compared to a calibration with a closer iris setting.
- When playing SDR content, you usually close down the iris to target around 50-60nits (in a dedicated room). This lowers the black floor and increases the native on/off compared tot he HDR calibration with the iris fully open.
There is nothing to stop you from using your HDR calibration if your source remap to that target (yes you should have report BT2020 selected in that case to get the correct gamut), but you are raising the black floor and reducing your native on/off. If you use the dynamic iris, this can be less obvious, but you are more likely to have more iris artifacts when the iris is fully open than when it is closed to -6 or less.
And if you don't use the DI, then the black floor is significantly higher than it could be for SDR.
If the SDR picture is too bright in your HDR calibration, you can use an option when generating the 3D LUT to lower the target (Lightspace offers this) but again, this kills your native contrast so it's really not recommended.
So yes, I would use two different calibrations, one for SDR rec-709 (iris closed to target 50-60nits, no report BT2020 option in madVR) and one for HDR content (if tonemapped by the source, an SDR WCG calibration with report BT2020 checked in madVR) with the iris fully open to get as much brightness as you can for the HDR highlights.
Of course, if you don't get more than 50nits in HDR without the filter in the highest lamp setting you are happy to use, then you can use the same calibration for both, as you have no choice and nothing to gain from having to separate calibrations given that even in HDR you don't have enough brightness for SDR (so closing the iris isn't a preferable option for SDR).
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OK thanks. In my case then I think it wont end up mattering which way I do it then.
I don't use the DI, because the artifacts for me are terrible.
I will just have to decide if I want to run high lamp then for SDR and close my iris for increased on/off contrast. If I use low lamp with iris wide open, then my rec709 content is not too bright, at least IMO. It's 68fL according to my meter. This is how I have been watching my rec709 content so far and I would not want it any dimmer.
I know closing the iris increases on/off contrast and lowers black floor, but IMO that is not worth my image looking too dim and dull to me. It only takes like -2 on my iris to bring my brightness down to 60fL and anything less than that and it's just too dim to my eyes. Plus my bulb is new, it's only going to get dimmer on it's own and sooner or later I will be below 60fL at iris 0 anyways.
I would have to play my rec709 in high bulb and then I could close my iris, but I'm not sure if the increased bulb wear and louder fan is worth the increase I would get in contrast. And I doubt I am getting a lower black floor if I am using high bulb over low bulb even with the iris bringing my fL down in high bulb.
All I can do is hope that they improve the auto DI so that I can use that at some point.
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I agree that if you're happy with 68nits in SDR it's not worth having two calibrations. -2 on the iris won't make a huge difference to the black floor or to the iris artifacts. You need to close the iris to -6 or lower to start reducing the artifacts significantly.
I have 60nits in SDR with the iris at -13 and 115nits in HDR (low lamp, iris open, I could get around 140nits in high lamp). In this situation having two calibrations makes a lot more sense.
I don't use the DI in HDR either due to the artifacts, but in SDR with the above settings it's fine. Hopefully there is a fix coming. All the issues have been reported to JVC.
One question, as you seem to notice the artifacts, which ones do you notice:
- the yellowing bug on whites, especially visible coming out of black (Lucy, Mad Max Furty Road)?
- the crushing of the highlights on small bright objects against dark background (car headlights in MI:Fallout at from 00:05:50, spotlights in 2001 at 00:)50:56, subs spotlights in The Meg at 00:08:49)?
It looks like not everyone (including people whose eyes I trust) can reproduce the second kind, and I'd like to know I'm not the only one seeing these. I wonder if there is something in my setup that triggers this (though it happens with all sources, whether the source does the tonemapping, say madVR, or the JVC does the tonemapping, for example with the UB900 or an Oppo 203 as the source sending HDR passthrough.
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I agree that if you're happy with 68nits in SDR it's not worth having two calibrations. -2 on the iris won't make a huge difference to the black floor or to the iris artifacts. You need to close the iris to -6 or lower to start reducing the artifacts significantly.
I have 60nits in SDR with the iris at -13 and 115nits in HDR (low lamp, iris open, I could get around 140nits in high lamp). In this situation having two calibrations makes a lot more sense.
I don't use the DI in HDR either due to the artifacts, but in SDR with the above settings it's fine. Hopefully there is a fix coming. All the issues have been reported to JVC.
One question, as you seem to notice the artifacts, which ones do you notice:
- the yellowing bug on whites, especially visible coming out of black (Lucy, Mad Max Furty Road)?
- the crushing of the highlights on small bright objects against dark background (car headlights in MI:Fallout at from 00:05:50, spotlights in 2001 at 00:)50:56, subs spotlights in The Meg at 00:08:49)?
It looks like not everyone (including people whose eyes I trust) can reproduce the second kind, and I'd like to know I'm not the only one seeing these. I wonder if there is something in my setup that triggers this (though it happens with all sources, whether the source does the tonemapping, say madVR, or the JVC does the tonemapping, for example with the UB900 or an Oppo 203 as the source sending HDR passthrough.
Manni...I think he said foot lamberts, not nits!
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One question, as you seem to notice the artifacts, which ones do you notice:
- the yellowing bug on whites, especially visible coming out of black (Lucy, Mad Max Furty Road)?
- the crushing of the highlights on small bright objects against dark background (car headlights in MI:Fallout at from 00:05:50, spotlights in 2001 at 00:)50:56, subs spotlights in The Meg at 00:08:49)?
I see both very severely. For yellowing, I can simply have like my MPC-HC window open but no video loaded so it's a black screen in the middle, but there is the MPC-HC GUI like around the seek bar that's supposed to be white or light grey. It's very clearly yellow when my DI is on auto. As for the highlight clipping, I see that all over on pretty much any film I watch. I've seen it in Greatest Showman, House with a clock in its walls, Alien Covenant, Bladerunner 2049, etc. Yes, it's just when there's bright elements in a dark scene.
And then opening up the projector menu makes both artifacts disappear (since it's forcing the iris open.)
So does another big WI AVS guy who has been over to my place more than a few times. He sees it the same as me.
Also we both see both artifacts on his NX7 at his place as well.
And yes we see them whether we are doing HDr-SDR in madVR, or plain SDR, or HDR tone-mapping them with the JVC itself. Though it does change the severity of the clipping, but that seems to be mostly a factor of how far the iris is clamping down wihch is affected by the content, or how the content is being rendered.
I believe that the farther the auto DI moves the iris away from it's maximal allowed position you have it set at, the worse the artifact is, which is why it's lessened when you start the iris off at a partially closed state.
However, I will say that We both were not able to trigger the clipping/blooming artifact on another friend's NX9 in the usual scenes that worked on our NX5 and NX7. The NX9 was on firmware 1.17, but he has since sold it so we can't look at that anymore.
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Manni...I think he said foot lamberts, not nits!
LOL obviously a mistake... My meter says 20.2fc when it's measured with my NX5 projecting on my 140" diagonal 1.0 gain 1.9:1 screen when positioned at the absolute closest possible throw (13'10"). This is 69.21 nits.
In high bulb it increases to 27.1fc (92.85 nits).
I just really like how the image looks at that setting for SDR even though I know it's a little brighter than the 16fL many people target. I've tried closing down my iris a little, but it doesn't really look better to me.
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Well re the DI it might very well be that this is a difference between the N7 and N9 because the friend whose eyes I trust who can’t reproduce has an N9 too (with 2.04 fw). Thanks for confirming that I’m not the only one to see this, and good to know that it can be fixed.
Yes I mentally corrected to 68nits when I read, but thanks to Dave for pointing it out!
68nits for SDR is fine. I can go up to 70nits because sometimes one less click on the iris and you’re below 50nits, and I’d rather be a bit too bright than a bit too dim.
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Well re the DI it might very well be that this is a difference between the N7 and N9 because the friend whose eyes I trust who can’t reproduce has an N9 too (with 2.04 fw). Thanks for confirming that I’m not the only one to see this, and good to know that it can be fixed.
Yes I mentally corrected to 68nits when I read, but thanks to Dave for pointing it out!
68nits for SDR is fine. I can go up to 70nits because sometimes one less click on the iris and you’re below 50nits, and I’d rather be a bit to bright than a bit too dim.
I had to double-check myself...I was wondering if he was watching his display with sunglasses on :)
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Calibrating color with the i1pro2 makes a huge difference. No more dealing with spreadsheets to fix the spyder’s error is a big plus. For gamma, the spyder 5 still works great though.
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Calibrating color with the i1pro2 makes a huge difference. No more dealing with spreadsheets to fix the spyder’s error is a big plus. For gamma, the spyder 5 still works great though.
Yes, that's the main advantage of using the i1pro2 for color :)
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Yes, that's the main advantage of using the i1pro2 for color :)
Hi, can you upload your workout template from Calman?
Thanks...
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Hi, can you upload your workout template from Calman?
Thanks...
Do you mean my workflow? It's only readable if you have Calman Ultimate, as it's not compatible with non-ultimate versions unfortunately. There is nothing really original in it, mostly a collection of layouts I've found and adapted over the years. I use three different workflows, one for SDR DCI-P3, one for HDR BT2020 and one for Rec-709. They are mostly similar with a few variations, primarily settings and a few layouts.
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Do you mean my workflow? It's only readable if you have Calman Ultimate, as it's not compatible with non-ultimate versions unfortunately. There is nothing really original in it, mostly a collection of layouts I've found and adapted over the years. I use three different workflows, one for SDR DCI-P3, one for HDR BT2020 and one for Rec-709. They are mostly similar with a few variations, primarily settings and a few layouts.
I use Video PRO edition who is reale close to Ultimate, most of time i tryed IS advanced profile or ISF and your profile looks nice...
I have many question, but where to start. Will you create some tutorial for this MadVR calibrating or you can give me some advice?
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1850.0;attach=2609
This is you projector seting?
Thanks
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I use Video PRO edition who is reale close to Ultimate, most of time i tryed IS advanced profile or ISF and your profile looks nice...
I have many question, but where to start. Will you create some tutorial for this MadVR calibrating or you can give me some advice?
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1850.0;attach=2609
This is you projector seting?
Thanks
Video Pro won't read Ultimate workflows unfortunately, sorry.
My recommended settings for these PJs are described in... the recommended settings section (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10388#msg10388) in this thread :)
Please read the first posts if you haven't already. There are a few brief notes specifically on madVR, but it's off topic here.
I intend to start a thread on calibrating these projectors for HDR with madVR, but as stated many times I don't plan do this until there is a public release of madVR with the final settings. Unfortunately I don't have the time to provide support for this and there is no support at the moment given that it's still experimental and keeps changing.
As soon as a public build is released, support will be available in the main madVR threads and I'll post my recommended settings and calibration tips for madVR.
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Hello Manni, this is Marc in Vegas aka "Sparky"
So it is getting close to that time where I will be doing my first calibration of my NX-5 projector. My question to you is the following:
I own a iD3, which I read is not compatible, "okay" so a bit of advice. I am a novice calibrator - would you recommend I purchase a Spyder meter and use the autocal feature, or is it recommended that I use my iD3 with Calman and Lightspace (for my 3D Lut) and put my calibration skills to the test.
Note: I do want to progress as a calibrator, but I also want my NX-5 too show an accurate image. What would recommend?
Thanks you Manni
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Hi Sparky,
Doing a bit of manual calibration to understand the basics is always a good idea, so I suggest you see what you get with your i1d3 using Calman and Lightspace. Setting the greyscale manually (you can use the i1d3 and another software to adjust gamma using the JVC Autocal without having one of the supported meters) or adding a 1D/3D LUT as you have a LUT holder should improve things significantly. Then you can decide if you get good enough results or if you want to get a Spyder and move things further, especially gamma-wise. Sometimes you'll be fine for a while, then realise as the projector ages that improving the baseline before running a 3D LUT actually improves the results.
There are a few calibration guides out that are excellent to teach the basics (for example by Tom Huffman and KAL) so don't hesitate to peruse these to get an idea of the underlying science. Just don't use the JVC CMS except for training purposes, it's not linear and will likely make things worse if you don't know how to compensate for this issue. You can get decent results if you don't aim for the targets at 100% saturation. If you do, you'll get nice looking charts (unless you check saturation tracking) but an undersaturated picture. You'll get much better results for color using the Autocal and/or a 3D LUT.
Personally, I use autocal because I believe in getting the best possible baseline before deciding on whether to use a 3D LUT or not, and if I do using the smallest possible LUT that gives me reference results. I don't see the point in creating a 21point LUT that takes 5 hours to create if I can get reference results with a Lightning LUT that takes only 10 minutes, thanks to a good baseline.
I could get similar results for gamma manually, but I prefer to calibrate in half an hour every 200 hours or so than spending two hours or more to get the same results every 500 hours.
If you're willing to spend the time learning, try to get the best with what you have. Deciding whether you need more will be easier :)
Then come back when/if you decide to take things further with the Autocal...
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Thank you for the advice Manny! I will follow-up after a couple of weeks in the approptriate thread with my calibration results for my unit.
I am tempted to handle the color management through the autocal, because I do not know of another method to avoid the oversaturation, unless I just lower the saturation targets and use trial and error. The Spyder is a small investment.
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Your 3D LUT should be able to deal with the oversaturation, but a Spyder is indeed a small investment, and as you have an i1d3 and other software you'll be able to check and optimise the results afterwards, which will probably be needed for color. Gamma should be fine.
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Hi, total noob here with calibration.
I have just bought a NX5 which is calibrated, but my dealer is a 2 hours drive and don't want to go there everytime my NX5 needs calibration. How good is the auto-cal against manual calibration? And can a noob do this?
I'm using a htpc with madvr for my main viewing, what real life benefits does 3Dlut have?
Thank you and keep up the good work!!
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Hi there,
Congrats on your new projector :)
Autocal can do worse, the same or better than a manual calibration, depending on how competent you are with a manual calibration, how much time you are ready to spend learning and performing one, and how technically-minded you are.
If you are reasonably technically-minded, a noob can absolutely learn how to use the autocal. Many have done so in the past few years, and will be happy to help if you get stuck once you've done your homework. The best way to start is to read the first 20 posts of this thread. :)
If you expect a push-button process where you don't put any effort in (starting by doing some homework), then I would say that you are unlikely to get good results, though luck always plays a part.
A 3D LUT can make a huge difference, or very little difference, depending on how linear the baseline is. I would argue that after a successful autocal, a 3D LUT bring little if you're not very critical. I run a small LUT because I want to be as close to reference as I can, but I could live without one if I had too. I wouldn't be able to live with the OOTB picture after a few hundred hours. Again, you will see the difference if you look at the measurements posted in this thread.
I would take it in steps. Look at the performance of your PJ as it's been calibrated. Are you happy with the results or do you think there are elements in the picture that could be better? If you're happy, enjoy the projector until you reach the stage where it has drifted enough to cause visible issues. If/when you think there is room for improvement, start reading the thread, that will give you an indication of whether you want to learn more or whether spending four hours driving every 1,000 hours of use of your PJ is a better way to deal with this.
If/when you decide to try, feel free to ask any question that is not answered in the Autocal documentation or in the first 30 posts of this thread (especially the FAQ). I and many others who have been through this learning process before will be happy to help. There is little to do until someone has actually tried, but it's much clearer once you are actually following instructions and doing it step by step, using both the hardware and software.
Happy reading, calibrating and most importantly, movie watching! :)
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Hi there,
Congrats on your new projector :)
Autocal can do worse, the same or better than a manual calibration, depending on how competent you are with a manual calibration, how much time you are ready to spend learning and performing one, and how technically-minded you are.
If you are reasonably technically-minded, a noob can absolutely learn how to use the autocal. Many have done so in the past few years, and will be happy to help if you get stuck once you've done your homework. The best way to start is to read the first 20 posts of this thread. :)
If you expect a push-button process where you don't put any effort in (starting by doing some homework), then I would say that you are unlikely to get good results, though luck always plays a part.
A 3D LUT can make a huge difference, or very little difference, depending on how linear the baseline is. I would argue that after a successful autocal, a 3D LUT bring little if you're not very critical. I run a small LUT because I want to be as close to reference as I can, but I could live without one if I had too. I wouldn't be able to live with the OOTB picture after a few hundred hours. Again, you will see the difference if you look at the measurements posted in this thread.
I would take it in steps. Look at the performance of your PJ as it's been calibrated. Are you happy with the results or do you think there are elements in the picture that could be better? If you're happy, enjoy the projector until you reach the stage where it has drifted enough to cause visible issues. If/when you think there is room for improvement, start reading the thread, that will give you an indication of whether you want to learn more or whether spending four hours driving every 1,000 hours of use of your PJ is a better way to deal with this.
If/when you decide to try, feel free to ask any question that is not answered in the Autocal documentation or in the first 30 posts of this thread (especially the FAQ). I and many others who have been through this learning process before will be happy to help. There is little to do until someone has actually tried, but it's much clearer once you are actually following instructions and doing it step by step, using both the hardware and software.
Happy reading, calibrating and most importantly, movie watching! :)
Thank you for your reply!
I think my dealer is very competent with the calibration and the results are excellent!
My concern is pure on what will it look like after 200 hour and more and when I then do a auto-cal will the results be good enough.
I already read alot about it i this thread but couldn't find the real life differences between a manual "good" calibration and for example a auto-cal with the spider. But then again the spider does not cost that much so I will try it anyway and when the results are not what I expected then I can always go back for my recalibration.
Thank again!
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Regarding gamma, you can get similar results with a manual calibration, it will only take a lot longer.
Regarding gamut, you won't be able to get similarly good results manually because the CMS isn't linear. You need a good spyder (or a corrected profile) and the Autocal, or a 3D LUT to correct significant gamut errors.
Depending on the accuracy of your Spyder, you might have to correct the errors manually, which is complex, time-consuming and requires a known accurate meter and another software. That's the lottery associated with Spyder accuracy for color calibration.
I didn't compare a manual calibration and the autocal because I don't do manual calibrations anymore :)
I run a gamma autocal with the Spyder 5, a color autocal with the i1pro2, and a Ligthning 3D LUT for madVR with Calman using the Discus trained to the i1pro2. This takes about 30 minutes overall. So you can see what each step improves in the results I've already posted.
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So you are saying that if I buy a spider and do a auto-cal for gamma the results will be better then the manual gamma calibration by my isf calibrator?
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So you are saying that if I buy a spider and do a auto-cal for gamma the results will be better then the manual gamma calibration by my isf calibrator?
No, I never said that. Please re-read my posts. I said that an autocal could provide better, worse or similar results as a manual calibration, depending on the amount of skills and time dedicated to each option. An Autocal is usually faster than a thorough manual gamma calibration, but it's certainly not always better. You can easily completely wreck a very good manual calibration with a botched autocal. And you can also significantly improve a poor manual calibration with a good Autocal.
I don't know your calibrator, I have no reason to suspect that the calibration isn't good (provided that your screen was taken into account), which is why I suggested that you look at the picture and enjoy watching movies if you're happy with your current calibration (as it sounds like you are). It will always be time to come back and investigate when/if the picture shifts and becomes lacking :)
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Regarding gamma, you can get similar results with a manual calibration, it will only take a lot longer.
Regarding gamut, you won't be able to get similarly good results manually because the CMS isn't linear. You need a good spyder (or a corrected profile) and the Autocal, or a 3D LUT to correct significant gamut errors.
Depending on the accuracy of your Spyder, you might have to correct the errors manually, which is complex, time-consuming and requires a known accurate meter and another software. That's the lottery associated with Spyder accuracy for color calibration.
I didn't compare a manual calibration and the autocal because I don't do manual calibrations anymore :)
I run a gamma autocal with the Spyder 5, a color autocal with the i1pro2, and a Ligthning 3D LUT for madVR with Calman using the Discus trained to the i1pro2. This takes about 30 minutes overall. So you can see what each step improves in the results I've already posted.
I've had several eshift units calibrated using my same (THX) calibrator and he always did the gamma only autocal with the spyder5. Then calibrated the color manually with his i1pro2. He will be doing my NX5 soon so would you recommend autocal gamma with spyder, followed by another autocal color with the i1pro2. As well as leaving CMS off in the end.
Thanks,
Jeremy
Sorry, I put my post within the quote i was referencing.
Manni-
"I've had several eshift units calibrated using my same (THX) calibrator and he always did the gamma only autocal with the spyder5. Then calibrated the color manually with his i1pro2. He will be doing my NX5 soon so would you recommend autocal gamma with spyder, followed by another autocal color with the i1pro2. As well as leaving CMS off in the end."
Thanks,
Jeremy
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Hi Jeremy,
Yes, that sounds about right.
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Hi Jeremy,
Yes, that sounds about right.
Thank you Manni
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Hi Manni,
What is the best way to test a Spyder for accuracy? You have it listed but no hyperlink yet.
I’m a new x790 owner and using a good portion of your information to teach myself. I don’t have i1Pro2, but do have a i1 Display Pro and Calman Enthusiast.
Thank you!
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Hi Guys,
I have the X5900(AKA X590) With the Spyder Elite and the i1Pro UVCUT Spectro REV D. I have done the GAMMA with the Spyder and when i do the Color i am facing issue only once did it complete the colour correctly. All future Colour calibration attempt fails with the colour going haywire. It completes the greyscale test and colour test. the it completes the colour calabration. When it starts the LOG and send to projector the RED colour becomes ORANGE and everything this is off. I ahve not done a re instate as it never asks me to. I am wondering should i put the i1Pro in the plate before pressing the i1 Pro Icon in JVC Autocal. Can this be the issue i am facing??
Many thanks in advanced.
Denis
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Hi Manni,
What is the best way to test a Spyder for accuracy? You have it listed but no hyperlink yet.
I’m a new x790 owner and using a good portion of your information to teach myself. I don’t have i1Pro2, but do have a i1 Display Pro and Calman Enthusiast.
Thank you!
Hi Jonny,
The best way to test a Spyder for accuracy is to use your i1d3 with Calman to look at 100% white and a gamut chart before the autocal, run a color only autocal, set your screen type in the JVC to take the screen into account (you don't have to do this when using an i1pro2 reading off the screen), and see again with the i1d3/Calman if the Spyder made things worse or better.
If worse, you know that it's better not to use it for color but only for gamma, and if better see how far it is after the autocal. A good Spyder will only require a few clicks at most on a couple of channels after a color autocal. The more correction it needs, the worse the Spyder is.
You can't really see how accurate they are when measuring off the screen, as the errors might be very different from when reading off the PJ lens, and it's the accuracy when reading off the lens that matters with the Spyder, not when reading off the screen.
And looking at the accuracy when reading off the lens is also difficult because it depends on how accurate your reference meter with its diffuser. My i1pro2 isn't very accurate with its diffuser when reading off the lens, so I wouldn't use it to decide if a Spyder is accurate or not.
So do a precal read, run a color autocal, set the screen type, do a post-cal read and see how far you are is my advice.
If you are very far, you can always restore the last state as it's saved by the Autocal after you save the results.
EDIT: you can also measure witht i1d3/Calman after the autocal *before* saving the results, so if it's better you save, otherwise you can cancel before saving.
One important thing: when using another software, always use full patterns to match the pattern size used by the autocal. In fact if you don't use the full size of the panel the Autocal patterns are a bit larger because it seems the software use the full size of the panels, even when your source sends a 16/9 signal to the Autocal during calibration. This can cause some discrepancy when comparing measurements, but it should only affect luminance, not color.
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Hi Guys,
I have the X5900(AKA X590) With the Spyder Elite and the i1Pro UVCUT Spectro REV D. I have done the GAMMA with the Spyder and when i do the Color i am facing issue only once did it complete the colour correctly. All future Colour calibration attempt fails with the colour going haywire. It completes the greyscale test and colour test. the it completes the colour calabration. When it starts the LOG and send to projector the RED colour becomes ORANGE and everything this is off. I ahve not done a re instate as it never asks me to. I am wondering should i put the i1Pro in the plate before pressing the i1 Pro Icon in JVC Autocal. Can this be the issue i am facing??
Many thanks in advanced.
Denis
Hi Denist,
I have no advice specific to the i1pro UV Cut as it's not officially supported, maybe someone using it will comment.
However, yes you do have to put it on the plate when you first connect.
It goes like this:
1) Put the i1pro on its matching calibration tile.
2) Select the i1pro on the screen
3) After 1-2 secs, the pattern on the screen will briefly flash. That's when the i1pro is detected and connected.
4) Immediately press the button on the i1pro to do a white calibration.
5) The software should now show the aiming window. Simply ignore it as it seems to be entirely pointless for the i1pro
6) Set the i1pro on a tripod about two-three feet from the screen, facing the screen, aiming towards the center of the screen, making sure that it's not reading its own shadow (or any other meter shadow) but the centre of the screen.
Good luck!
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Hi Manni,
Thanks and yes the issue was that i never put it on the plate for each CAL. And thanks for the tip to push the button when the screen flashes as i have never done this.
At least i can confirm the i1pro UVCUT Rev D works with Autocal V10.
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Hi Jonny,
The best way to test a Spyder for accuracy is to use your i1d3 with Calman to look at 100% white and a gamut chart before the autocal, run a color only autocal, set your screen type in the JVC to take the screen into account (you don't have to do this when using an i1pro2 reading off the screen), and see again with the i1d3/Calman if the Spyder made things worse or better.
If worse, you know that it's better not to use it for color but only for gamma, and if better see how far it is after the autocal. A good Spyder will only require a few clicks at most on a couple of channels after a color autocal. The more correction it needs, the worse the Spyder is.
You can't really see how accurate they are when measuring off the screen, as the errors might be very different from when reading off the PJ lens, and it's the accuracy when reading off the lens that matters with the Spyder, not when reading off the screen.
And looking at the accuracy when reading off the lens is also difficult because it depends on how accurate your reference meter with its diffuser. My i1pro2 isn't very accurate with its diffuser when reading off the lens, so I wouldn't use it to decide if a Spyder is accurate or not.
So do a precal read, run a color autocal, set the screen type, do a post-cal read and see how far you are is my advice.
If you are very far, you can always restore the last state as it's saved by the Autocal after you save the results.
EDIT: you can also measure witht i1d3/Calman after the autocal *before* saving the results, so if it's better you save, otherwise you can cancel before saving.
One important thing: when using another software, always use full patterns to match the pattern size used by the autocal. In fact if you don't use the full size of the panel the Autocal patterns are a bit larger because it seems the software use the full size of the panels, even when your source sends a 16/9 signal to the Autocal during calibration. This can cause some discrepancy when comparing measurements, but it should only affect luminance, not color.
Thank you!
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Hi Manni - One more question. As you mentioned, Autocal requires me to set the screen type via Screen Adjuestment mode. However, I have a Silver Ticket white screen, which is not listed by JVC.
Are there known mode #s that correlate to Silver Ticket screens? Specifically, white matte 1.1 gain?
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Hi Manni - One more question. As you mentioned, Autocal requires me to set the screen type via Screen Adjuestment mode. However, I have a Silver Ticket white screen, which is not listed by JVC.
Are there known mode #s that correlate to Silver Ticket screens? Specifically, white matte 1.1 gain?
I don't know the screen type that would match the Silver Ticket screen, that would be a question for JVC (though Mike Garrett or Craig Peer might know this, worth PMing either of them if they don't comment back here).
As you have Calman and an i1d3, you could try the following in the meantime, after you've run a color autocal:
- Get a 100% white patch on screen (full pattern)
- Set your i1d3 to read off the screen
- Cycle through the screen types and see if there is one that improves the reading rather than make it worse.
- Select the one that minimizes the errors, then run a full greyscale and gamut read with that screen type and check if the results are better across the board, or it it makes it worse in places.
What you want is a screen type that minimize the amount of RGB gains corrections you'll have to apply, especially in HDR, in order to keep as much brightness as possible.
There is nothing magic about each screen type, they just apply internal offsets to counter-balance the color shift induced by each screen. My Carada BW is fairly color neutral, the screen type is 006, it does nothing that I can see :).
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Hi Manni - One more question. As you mentioned, Autocal requires me to set the screen type via Screen Adjuestment mode. However, I have a Silver Ticket white screen, which is not listed by JVC.
Are there known mode #s that correlate to Silver Ticket screens? Specifically, white matte 1.1 gain?
I don't see it here - https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/projector/screen/
M (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/projector/screen/)aybe someone can compare a Stewart Cima Neve sample with the Silver Ticket screen.
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After some testing i chose the Da-lite Matte white (#7) as a match for the Silver Ticket. Not my final selection, as I redid my SDR-709 autocal low lamp passes yesterday and will redo Calman tomorrow night.
The Spyder 5 elite I used is quite accurate from a color perspective. Just a single -1 click for both red and blue hue.
@Manni - Thank for your instructions. Very very helpful. A few questions on my workflow ...
I have a user mode for SDR-709 and one for SDR-DCI P3.
For SDR-709 user mode (user1-picture mode, Standard-color profile, 6500k- color temp, Normal (2.2)- gamma, and low lamp) I did both gamma and color 33-point autocal calibrations @ iris 0, 4, 8, and 12. I’ll then be repeating with high lamp mode under User 1 as well.
- I’m assuming doing autocals this way, my SDR-709 user mode will allow me to change iris and/or lamp settings and have all combinations calibrated ... correct assumption?
- When I run autocal at each iris position, do I still need to run both gamma and color at 4, 8, and 12 after doing both at iris 0? ... or do I just need to run one of them after running both at iris 0?
- When i rerun User 1/SDR-709 profile in high lamp at each iris, do I need to run both color and gamma at each iris?
When I run my SDR-DCI P3 (user mode 2, color profile - HDR, Custom 1 - color temp, User 1- gamma @ 2.2, low lamp) ... I’ll doing the same testing workflow. (1) Autocal gamma and color @0, 4, 8, & 12, and (2) run a high lamp set.
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Hi JonnyVee,
Glad you found the instructions useful, and great to hear that your Spyder is a keeper! One click on red and blue is very good.
Re your question, you only need to run gamma 33 steps once for each lamp / filter combination.
Running it more than once simply replaces the last one.
To maximise low lights readings, I recommend running the gamma autocal with the iris fully open. You should then be able to run each following color autocal without having to move the meter.
So for you, it would go like this:
Rec-709 (User 1)
0. Set the meter so it's to the right side of the box
1. Run Gamma + color autocal low lamp iris 0.
2. Run Color only autocal low lamp iris -4,-8, -12 (no need to move the meter)
3. Set lamp to high, move the meter back during the next step otherwise the patterns will be too bright
4. Run Gamma + color autocal high lamp iris 0
5. Run Color only autocal high lamp iris -4, -8, 12 (no need to move the meter from previous position)
DCI-P3 (User 2)
Do exactly the same as above, as the filter is engaged so it's different slots for the calibrations with low/high lamp.
Once you've done this, you'll be able to change freely between iris, filter and lamp positions for these two calibrations.
Good luck! :)
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Hi JonnyVee,
Glad you found the instructions useful, and great to hear that your Spyder is a keeper! One click on red and blue is very good.
Re your question, you only need to run gamma 33 steps once for each lamp / filter combination.
Running it more than once simply replaces the last one.
To maximise low lights readings, I recommend running the gamma autocal with the iris fully open. You should then be able to run each following color autocal without having to move the meter.
So for you, it would go like this:
Rec-709 (User 1)
0. Set the meter so it's to the right side of the box
1. Run Gamma + color autocal low lamp iris 0.
2. Run Color only autocal low lamp iris -4,-8, -12 (no need to move the meter)
3. Set lamp to high, move the meter back during the next step otherwise the patterns will be too bright
4. Run Gamma + color autocal high lamp iris 0
5. Run Color only autocal high lamp iris -4, -8, 12 (no need to move the meter from previous position)
DCI-P3 (User 2)
Do exactly the same as above, as the filter is engaged so it's different slots for the calibrations with low/high lamp.
Once you've done this, you'll be able to change freely between iris, filter and lamp positions for these two calibrations.
Good luck! :)
Hi, I'm a little confused now "Color only autocal" is directed to the screen right? Or front to projector?
And thats "Color only autocal low lamp iris -4,-8, -12" its on some specific saved setings?
http://www.heimkino-vorfuehrung.de/HDR-Tuning/Workshop_zur_JVC-AutoKalibrierung.pdf
Thanks
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Hi, I'm a little confused now "Color only autocal" is directed to the screen right? Or front to projector?
And thats "Color only autocal low lamp iris -4,-8, -12" its on some specific saved setings?
http://www.heimkino-vorfuehrung.de/HDR-Tuning/Workshop_zur_JVC-AutoKalibrierung.pdf
Thanks
1. You do the color only autocal with the Spyder facing the screen.
2. Once done the color/gamma at 0 iris. You go back to the settings screen from the main page of the autocal software. Under calibration type, unclick “color + gamma” and then click “color” .
3. Go back to the main screen and click back into the calibration screen. Once in the picture mode settings menu, adjust iris to 4 (then iris 8 and 12 on the 3rd and fourth passes). You don’t need to use the remote to adjust iris. All other settings stay the same.
i also have a X-rite i1 Display Pro and Calman. Once done autocal, I’ll use this to adjust gamma, white balance and color.
** Note. I’m using v10 Autocal and have an x790.
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Color or gamma isn't related to screen or lens. It's the meter used that matters.
If you only have a Spyder, you should always be facing the lens, not the screen, both for gamma and color. Unless you know that your spyder is accurate, or unless you correct its errors using a reference meter, it's not recommended to use the spyder for color, but it's fine to use it for gamma.
If you only have an i1pro2, you should only be facing the screen, but it's really not recommended to do a gamma autocal with an i1pro2, it's not reliable below 30% white.
If you have both a spyder and an i1pro2, then you use the spyder facing the lens for gamma, and the i1pro2 facing the screen for color.
Never use the spyder facing the screen, never use the i1pro facing the lens (or for gamma).
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Ok... and whit i1pro2 this will works in some progress with iris set mode (-4,-8, -12) ?
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Hi Manni
Great write up on using the Autocal software. I am waiting on delivery of the NX7. I noticed you recommended the i1Pro2 for color calibration. I was searching online for prices and noticed such a big difference in price from the Spyder5 and the i1Pro2 (over $1000). Is that correct or am I looking at the wrong model?
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Hi Manni
Great write up on using the Autocal software. I am waiting on delivery of the NX7. I noticed you recommended the i1Pro2 for color calibration. I was searching online for prices and noticed such a big difference in price from the Spyder5 and the i1Pro2 (over $1000). Is that correct or am I looking at the wrong model?
Hi there,
No the i1pro2 is a semi-pro spectrometer and can be quite expensive, though you only need the basic model.
You might also give the spyder a try with color, and see if you’s happy with the results. It’s a bit of a lottery but spyder 5s are not that bad and many of us have pretty accurate ones that deliver fairly good results with color calibration.
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Ok... and whit i1pro2 this will works in some progress with iris set mode (-4,-8, -12) ?
Sorry I’m not sure I understand the question. Can you rephrase?
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Sorry I’m not sure I understand the question. Can you rephrase?
Like you write this:
Rec-709 (User 1)
0. Set the meter so it's to the right side of the box
1. Run Gamma + color autocal low lamp iris 0.
2. Run Color only autocal low lamp iris -4,-8, -12 (no need to move the meter)
3. Set lamp to high, move the meter back during the next step otherwise the patterns will be too bright
4. Run Gamma + color autocal high lamp iris 0
5. Run Color only autocal high lamp iris -4, -8, 12 (no need to move the meter from previous position)
DCI-P3 (User 2)
Do exactly the same as above, as the filter is engaged so it's different slots for the calibrations with low/high lamp.
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Hi there,
No the i1pro2 is a semi-pro spectrometer and can be quite expensive, though you only need the basic model.
You might also give the spyder a try with color, and see if you’s happy with the results. It’s a bit of a lottery but spyder 5s are not that bad and many of us have pretty accurate ones that deliver fairly good results with color calibration.
Hi Manni,
Can you tell me exactly which i1pro2 you use for color calibrations? Is it the one for over $1000? I want to have both meters for accurate calibrations. If possible provide a link - description and purchase for the exact i1pro2 model you have (the basic one?)
Dennis
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This is the one I have, i1basic pro 2: https://www.xrite.com/categories/calibration-profiling/i1basic-pro-2 (https://www.xrite.com/categories/calibration-profiling/i1basic-pro-2)
Yes, it's more than $1000, but well worth it in my opinion, even more so now that it's supported by the JVC Autocal.
I might upgrade my Discus one day for a faster colorimeter (Klein K10a most likely if I find a good opportunity) but the only reason I would want to upgrade the i1pro2 is the need to do a white calibration before using it and then regularly during a session. Otherwise accuracy is fine for my needs, and speed mostly irrelevant as I only use it to profile my Discus, or for a very quick color Autocal.
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Color or gamma isn't related to screen or lens. It's the meter used that matters.
If you only have a Spyder, you should always be facing the lens, not the screen, both for gamma and color. Unless you know that your spyder is accurate, or unless you correct its errors using a reference meter, it's not recommended to use the spyder for color, but it's fine to use it for gamma.
If you only have an i1pro2, you should only be facing the screen, but it's really not recommended to do a gamma autocal with an i1pro2, it's not reliable below 30% white.
If you have both a spyder and an i1pro2, then you use the spyder facing the lens for gamma, and the i1pro2 facing the screen for color.
Never use the spyder facing the screen, never use the i1pro facing the lens (or for gamma).
Manni-
I really appreciate the helpful thread. My calibrator is coming tomorrow and he’ll be using both meters (1 for gamma and 1 for color as recommended). I only want 2 modes: SDR 709 and SDR HDR (NX5).
Do I need to run the autocal for gamma just once at: user 1 rec709/6500k/iris at -12 (or should it be 0)
And color twice
user 1 rec709/6500k/iris -12
user 2 HDR/6500k/iris 0
does this sound right?
thanks,
jeremy
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Hi Jeremy,
Your calibrator should be familiar with this, otherwise please ask him to read the relevant posts.
It is recommended to calibrate gamma with the iris fully open, to limit the risks of getting zero values near black, especially when using the 33 point gamma.
Because you don't have a filter on the N5, you will only need to run gamma once for your two calibrations if you don't change the lamp mode for your SDR rec-709 and (I assume your meant BT2020, not SDR) HDR calibration. Otherwise, you'll need to run a gamma calibration for each.
So assuming you use the same lamp mode for both calibration (it doesn't matter if it's low or high as long as it's the same), you would run gamma at 0 with the Spyder, then color at 0 and -12 with the i1pro to cover only the settings you mentioned. I would sugest that he also runs color at -8 and -4, that way you will be able to adjust the iris as the lamp ages in SDR without throwing the calibration out (assuming same lamp mode).
If you use low lamp for SDR and high lamp for HDR, then you would do gamma and color at zero for HDR in high lamp, and gamma at 0 and color at 0, -4, -8 and -12 for SDR in low lamp.
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Hi Jeremy,
Your calibrator should be familiar with this, otherwise please ask him to read the relevant posts.
It is recommended to calibrate gamma with the iris fully open, to limit the risks of getting zero values near black, especially when using the 33 point gamma.
Because you don't have a filter on the N5, you will only need to run gamma once for your two calibrations if you don't change the lamp mode for your SDR rec-709 and (I assume your meant BT2020, not SDR) HDR calibration. Otherwise, you'll need to run a gamma calibration for each.
So assuming you use the same lamp mode for both calibration (it doesn't matter if it's low or high as long as it's the same), you would run gamma at 0 with the Spyder, then color at 0 and -12 with the i1pro to cover only the settings you mentioned. I would sugest that he also runs color at -8 and -4, that way you will be able to adjust the iris as the lamp ages in SDR without throwing the calibration out (assuming same lamp mode).
If you use low lamp for SDR and high lamp for HDR, then you would do gamma and color at zero for HDR in high lamp, and gamma at 0 and color at 0, -4, -8 and -12 for SDR in low lamp.
great. Thank you Manni!
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Once the calibration is done...and I click save....why in the menu of the projector everything is still at 0.
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Once the calibration is done...and I click save....why in the menu of the projector everything is still at 0.
Please read the first post and the relevant posts/documentation, as this is explained in the basic section.
The Autocal doesn't change any of the user menu settings, it changes internal tables depending on the lamp, filter and iris settings. It is recommended to never use the CMS and to reset the RGB offset/gains before calibration, otherwise they will be applied during the post-calibration log, even if they are ignored during calibration, which will make it harder for you to assess if the calibration was successful or not.
Some adjustments might be needed after calibration, but is should only be minor if the meter used is accurate.
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Hi Jeremy,
Your calibrator should be familiar with this, otherwise please ask him to read the relevant posts.
It is recommended to calibrate gamma with the iris fully open, to limit the risks of getting zero values near black, especially when using the 33 point gamma.
Because you don't have a filter on the N5, you will only need to run gamma once for your two calibrations if you don't change the lamp mode for your SDR rec-709 and (I assume your meant BT2020, not SDR) HDR calibration. Otherwise, you'll need to run a gamma calibration for each.
So assuming you use the same lamp mode for both calibration (it doesn't matter if it's low or high as long as it's the same), you would run gamma at 0 with the Spyder, then color at 0 and -12 with the i1pro to cover only the settings you mentioned. I would sugest that he also runs color at -8 and -4, that way you will be able to adjust the iris as the lamp ages in SDR without throwing the calibration out (assuming same lamp mode).
If you use low lamp for SDR and high lamp for HDR, then you would do gamma and color at zero for HDR in high lamp, and gamma at 0 and color at 0, -4, -8 and -12 for SDR in low lamp.
I really appreciate the help. Unfortunately, we ran the 33 step gamma with the manual iris clamped down to where we were getting 20fl on screen (instead of the zero you recommended). I didn't see your post until we were finished.:(
The post results were pretty good (only had to bump up the picture tone to +2 to track at 2.4), but I was wondering if I need to rerun it again with the iris at zero. Or should it be fine until I have it recalibrated when the bulb ages?
Thanks again
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If you’re happy with the results, don’t touch it until you need to. :)
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If you’re happy with the results, don’t touch it until you need to. :)
great. thank you
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Anyone tried the new Spyder X on JVC Autocal yet?
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Hi everyone,
As the new JVC Autocal Software is available, I thought it would be useful to create a dedicated thread to collect here the best practice and calibration tips for this version of the software (V11) and the new native 4K models.
IMPORTANT WARNING: using the Autocal software changes internal tables in the projector. The first time you use it and save a calibration, it will create a .INIT file that contains the calibration tables as they were when the PJ left the factory. This .init file is saved in the folder you have selected in the software settings. There is no way to re-create this .INIT file if you lose it or delete it, yet restoring this .INIT file is the only way to revert the PJ to its factory state (doing a factory reset in the service menu only restores user settings, not calibration tables). So please make sure that you back up this .INIT and keep the back-up copy in a safe place. Also, using any software means that things can go wrong. It's a software. There can be bugs. Updating the f/w to V2.01, which is necessary to use the latest version of the Autocal, should be done carefully as there are opportunities for things to go wrong during that process too. If you read further, you acknowledge these risks and agree that you are using the software at your own risk. Please don't blame me if anything goes wrong, especially if you have not made sure to keep your .init file safe, or read and followed JVC's instructions for the f/w update. If you don't feel comfortable with this, please don't use the Autocal software, or ask a competent calibrator to use it for you.
EDIT 15-03-19: a new JVC Autocal (V11 1.10) has been released, along with a new f/w version (V2.01). See links below. You need to install the new f/w first before being able to use the new version of the Autocal. I have installed both and have updated the FAQ with a few minor issues I experienced, but it overall went well.
I'm in the process of compiling some info that I've started to post and I'll continue to do so over the next few weeks.
I've added most recently some recommended settings and detailed brightness and contrast measurements, as well as calibration measurements and a first impression / mini review of my rs2000, all linked in the next post.
I've also added advice for preparation and calibration, as well as advanced tips and results. The whole basic section is completed.
You'll also find in the next post useful links to external resources or direct access to specific posts in this thread, either in the "reference" part (posts 2-29) or the body of the thread as it grows up. [Note: For now, only the links to posts with actual content are "live". I'll add the links as content is posted. Please refrain from asking questions about a [reserved] section until the initial content for the section has been posted. Thanks!]
I've tried to organize the information to make it easy for beginners to get started and for experienced users to get more advanced stuff. If you have any questions regarding calibrating the 2019 JVCs, please feel to ask in the thread, however...
IF YOU'RE STUCK WITH THE SOFTWARE, BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION IN THIS THREAD: please read the documentation linked below, as well as the Troubleshooting/FAQ in the Basic section. Thanks!
More later...
When I calibrate with a spider 5 elite, on an NX5 to spec Natural, bt709, 6500k, gamma 2.2
The results seem way to warm/red
I do notice in the calibration the first reading of red is 0.000
Should that be a reading of some sort?
I change over to the untouched stock DCI Picture setting and that seems to look much better. Any ideas to what I'm doing wrong??
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Anyone tried the new Spyder X on JVC Autocal yet?
The Spyder X isn't supported by Autocal 11 yet. Only Spyder 5 and i1pro2.
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When I calibrate with a spider 5 elite, on an NX5 to spec Natural, bt709, 6500k, gamma 2.2
The results seem way to warm/red
I do notice in the calibration the first reading of red is 0.000
Should that be a reading of some sort?
I change over to the untouched stock DCI Picture setting and that seems to look much better. Any ideas to what I'm doing wrong??
Sounds like you need to read the basic section and the FAQ :)
If you mean that the first reading for red is zero during a gamma calibration, this isn't desired but you'll find in the guide how to address this with the meter positioning. This zero reading should only impact the RGB balance near black though, so unlikely to be related to a red push in the overall picture.
Please redo your calibration after having read the guide and all the recommended reading and show us screenshots of the calibration results and settings if you still have the issue.
Which content are you sending to this calibration, from which source, with which settings? If you're sending UHD content, you most likely need an HDR calibration (HDR color profile on the N5, as it doesn't have the BT2020 filter and associated color profile), with the correct gamma (PQ or power) depending on where the tonemapping takes place, not a Rec-709 calibration, which should only be used for SD and HD content (DVD/bluray/HDTV). Unless you're using madVR or a Radiance Pro, no consumer source sends DCI, so that's unlikely to be correct anyway. Please read the recommended settings section to figure out which calibration you should use according to source/content.
After all this healthy reading and possibly a new attempt, don't hesitate to get back if you still have some problems, but please provide more information: source, content, tonemapping settings if any (does it take place in the source? In the PJ?) and screenshots of the post calibration results (for gamma and gamut and color temp) if you still have this red push issue.
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I thought on the NX projectors that a color calibration applies to every color profile.
I did a color calibration in HDR color profile and my rec709 profile and DCI profile were also calibrated after that single autocal run.
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I thought on the NX projectors that a color calibration applies to every color profile.
I did a color calibration in HDR color profile and my rec709 profile and DCI profile were also calibrated after that single autocal run.
Only if you're using the same lamp, filter (not applicable for the N5) and iris range setting (for a color calibration). And that's for color temp.
The color calibration is also using gamut info (color profile), so if the gamut is different the white point might be corrected, but the primaries and saturations won't be.
I've always had a filter so I've never tested for this, my calibration for rec-709 and HDR (SDR BT2020 in my case) is always different (not the same iris setting at the very least, which I know is not the case for you as you use iris open in both, and always a different filter setting). So I always run at least two separate calibrations, one for SDR Rec-709, one for SDR BT2020/DCI-P3.
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Photos
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Hi Jeff,
Welcome here!
The first two photos indicate that the PJ is getting HDR content but that there is no metadata. Which title are you feeding it (movie name and country of the UHD Bluray)? Is it the same title with the third pic, which has metadata? Which source? Please use the UB900 to rule out any HTPC related issues.
[EDIT: replied in other forum, case closed here].
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Usted acaba de hablar de DI, ¿qué significa?
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Usted acaba de hablar de DI, ¿qué significa?
Significa Dynamic Iris, ma no hablo espanol, so English is preferred :)
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New f/w available (V2.07). See link in second post.
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Manni-
i recently had my projector recalibrated and realized that the calibrator had set the HDMI level to super white 16-255 (while running autocal and calman). i noticed the image was very dark when playing madvr because the htpc was set to "full" so it was crushing the blacks.
My question is should i set the JVC back to "auto" or the htpc output to limited? I'm really hoping that i don't need to redo the calibration or anything since the projector wasn't set to auto. i'm not sure if changing the HDMI input level on the JVC would affect color and grayscale?
thanks again for your help,
Jeremy
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Hi Jeremy,
That's a tricky one. Superwhite should never be used. It comes from an old THX recommendation that leads to a loss of contrast and brightness for no benefit with 99% of the content. I think that even THX doesn't recommend using it anymore. Let's proceed by elimination:
- You should never set the GPU to limited because the GPU would be compressing levels behind madVR's back. So let's assume that your GPU is set to RGB Full, preferably in 8bits due to the forced YCC422 conversion when using 12bits on the JVCs.
- If you want the picture to be accurate for desktop content (ie games) and not only video, your best bet is to try GPU Full, madVR Full and JVC Enhanced (all 0-255). That's the straightest and recommended path in that situation.
- If you're only interested in video content from the HTPC, then you could try GPU full (0-255), madVR limited (16-235) and JVC standard (16-235). Levels will be wrong for desktop content, but should be right for video content.
If one of these two work (if nVidia, make sure you use 385.28 when testing, 430.xx drivers might work but almost every single driver from 398.11 borks levels), then you're good. Otherwise I'm afraid a new calibration is in order with either of the above selected.
Let's not elaborate if it doesn't work, levels on HTPCs and madVR can be tricky to get right because there are too many possibilities depending on GPU, drivers, OS version, player, decoder, madVR settings etc, it would soon derail the thread.
Good luck! :)
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gotcha, I'll just set the hptc back to full and JVC auto (enhanced). thank you very much!
last question, would changing back to 16-235 from super white affect the SDR calibration for other sources or would that be fine?
Thanks again,
Jeremy
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Is the Spyder 5 discontinued? Seems generally unavailable here (UK) while the spyderx is in stock. If so, any word on whether/when JVC will expand their meter support?
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Is the Spyder 5 discontinued? Seems generally unavailable here (UK) while the spyderx is in stock. If so, any word on whether/when JVC will expand their meter support?
Yes it looks like it's discontinued. No idea when the Spyder X will be supported. Maybe Mike or Craig could ask JVC?
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Back in 2016 I bought a Calman package that came with a SpectraCal C6 HDR spectroradiometer. I believe under the hood it's an x-Rite i1 Display Pro, but not sure?? Do you know if the JVC Autocal software V11 will recognize it? I have a Spyder 5 coming for Gamma and was hoping the C6 HDR spectroradiometer will work for color. I'm guessing it won't but thought I'd ask.
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Back in 2016 I bought a Calman package that came with a SpectraCal C6 HDR spectroradiometer. I believe under the hood it's an x-Rite i1 Display Pro, but not sure?? Do you know if the JVC Autocal software V11 will recognize it? I have a Spyder 5 coming for Gamma and was hoping the C6 HDR spectroradiometer will work for color. I'm guessing it won't but thought I'd ask.
Hi Tom,
No, the C6 is an i1display3, nothing to do with the i1pro2. Unfortunately it won’t be supported by the JVC Autocal, but you can use it to finetune a calibration with Calman, either instead or after using the Spyder for color.
You can always try the Spyder for color, check the calibration with the C6 and Calman, and see what you get comparing with the before cal state. The Spyder should improve things, and if it doesn’t go back to before the autocal and use the C6 manually.
The new JVC are very close OOTB re color with the correct profile, so a Spyder to correct gamma droop over time is the most important.
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Hi Tom,
No, the C6 is an i1display3, nothing to do with the i1pro2. Unfortunately it won’t be supported by the JVC Autocal, but you can use it to finetune a calibration with Calman, either instead or after using the Spyder for color.
You can always try the Spyder for color, check the calibration with the C6 and Calman, and see what you get comparing with the before cal state. The Spyder should improve things, and if it doesn’t go back to before the autocal and use the C6 manually.
The new JVC are very close OOTB re color with the correct profile, so a Spyder to correct gamma droop over time is the most important.
Thanks Manni, appreciate the information!
The RS1000 is coming today, and a Chief Projector Mount RPA 281 including SLB281, tomorrow.
As soon as I get it today, I'll temporarily set it up on a table and power it up to make sure it works, and to verify it survived shipping.
For the last 4 years I've been using a Sony VPLHW40ES with an eeColor 3D LUT box and Darbee in the chain. I'm pretty sure I'll remove both of those devices as they don't pass 4K. I used the C6 with ColourSpace CMS for the Sony 40ES, and I had it dialed in pretty good, thanks to Ted Aspiotis's help. I'm hoping the RS1000 upgrade will be a noticeable difference, even OOTB.
I'm looking forward to using AutoCal after a few weeks, at least for Gamma. I was going to get the Express version of the Spyder 5 as suggested, but found the Elite version on sale for just a few dollars more. I understand they are all the same meter but couldn't pass up the deal.
Thanks for your help.
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I hope you enjoy your rs1000 when it gets there, unharmed!
You won't need the Darbee or the eecolor if you use madVR. Otherwise, you can always keep them in a separate chain, using a HD Fury splitter (or two outputs in your AVR) to send 4K and 3D 1080p content directly to input 1 of the JVC and 2D 1080p content to input 2, going through the Darbee and eecolor. Most probably won't be needed though, the RS1000 should be close to reference after an autocal.
The S5 Elite is the same meter as the S5 Pro (exactly). The only difference are features in the Datacolor software (which we don't use).
It's not exactly the same meter as the S5 Express, because it has an environment mode, which the Express doesn't have (a physical diode is missing on the Express that's needed to support this). We don't use this either with the Autocal, at least in a dedicated room, but it is supported by the JVC Autocal and some seem to use this feature, especially if they have some ambient light in the room, or non-treated walls/ceiling.
So you've not entirely wasted your money buying the Elite over the Express. You have wasted it if the Pro was cheaper though :)
By the way, there is no quality/binning between the different versions. I tried many S4 and S5, some Elite units were far worse than some Express ones. It's a bit of a lottery irrespective of the model, but overall they are not that bad.
Enjoy your new toy(s)!
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Thanks! Great information!
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Thanks! Great information!
You're welcome. I added a bit about the eecolor/darbee as well.
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You're welcome. I added a bit about the eecolor/darbee as well.
Thanks. I'd like to try and not use them, hopefully it looks good and I won't need to.
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One more question please.
OOTB, should I run on low or high lamp mode? Or a mixture.
17' throw, 134" Carada BW 16x9, all lights out.
Thanks!
Tom
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One more question please.
OOTB, should I run on low or high lamp mode? Or a mixture.
17' throw, 134" Carada BW 16x9, all lights out.
Thanks!
Tom
With my 88” diag 16/9 Carada BW, I can just about get away with low lamp for HDR (120 nits), so I would expect that you’ll need high lamp in HDR, especially if you don’t use dynamic tonemapping (madVR or Radiance Pro). You should be fine to get around 50nits for SDR in low lamp.
So I’d use the BT2020 color profile (with the filter) in high lamp in HDR with the iris fully open, as the drop is only 10%, and the rec709 profile in low lamp for SDR with whichever iris setting gives you 50-60nits (or whatever your preference is in SDR).
Then it’s up to you to decide if you can live with the artifacts (yellowing and blooming) that the DI brings, especially when the manual iris is more than half open (-8 and above).
Apparently the yellowing is being worked on, not sure if blooming is being addressed too.
I suggest you try it (in auto2) once you’ve set the manual iris to get the desired brightness in SDR, and if you don’t detect anything, don’t look for them and just enjoy the DI :)
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With my 88” diag 16/9 Carada BW, I can just about get away with low lamp for HDR (120 nits), so I would expect that you’ll need high lamp in HDR, especially if you don’t use dynamic tonemapping (madVR or Radiance Pro). You should be fine to get around 50nits for SDR in low lamp.
So I’d use the BT2020 color profile (with the filter) in high lamp in HDR with the iris fully open, as the drop is only 10%, and the rec709 profile in low lamp for SDR with whichever iris setting gives you 50-60nits (or whatever your preference is in SDR).
Then it’s up to you to decide if you can live with the artifacts (yellowing and blooming) that the DI brings, especially when the manual iris is more than half open (-8 and above).
Apparently the yellowing is being worked on, not sure if blooming is being addressed too.
I suggest you try it (in auto2) once you’ve set the manual iris to get the desired brightness in SDR, and if you don’t detect anything, don’t look for them and just enjoy the DI :)
Thanks Manni, you mentioned a BT2020 color profile (with the filter)? Is this the filter that is only on the RS2000/3000? Or am I mistaking for something else.
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Thanks Manni, you mentioned a BT2020 color profile (with the filter)? Is this the filter that is only on the RS2000/3000? Or am I mistaking for something else.
Oops sorry, I was thinking rs2000/3000, in your case it’s the HDR profile and there is no filter indeed. I expect you will still need high lamp in HDR.
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Yes it looks like it's discontinued. No idea when the Spyder X will be supported. Maybe Mike or Craig could ask JVC?
I was just going to purchase the Spyder5 for Auto Cal on my RS2000. Should I wait to see what JVC will do to support their software as opposed to trying to find one still for sale? Hoping they will support the Spyder X.
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I was just going to purchase the Spyder5 for Auto Cal on my RS2000. Should I wait to see what JVC will do to support their software as opposed to trying to find one still for sale? Hoping they will support the Spyder X.
If you need to run an autocal soon, I'd get a Spyder 5 while you still can. It's only a matter of time before they get discontinued everywhere.
If you're not in a hurry, you can wait but given the amount of work that JVC still have to do on more pressing matters, I would not expect the Spyder X to be supported any time soon.
If, by the time you want to run an Autocal, the Spyder 5 is discontinued in your country as well, you'll have to wait, and who knows how long it will take.
It would be useful if Craig or Mike could ask JVC if they have any plans to support the Spyder X, and if they have a vague ETA if it's in the works, so that their users can make a decision.
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Oops sorry, I was thinking rs2000/3000, in your case it’s the HDR profile and there is no filter indeed. I expect you will still need high lamp in HDR.
Ok, thanks!
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Yes it looks like it's discontinued. No idea when the Spyder X will be supported. Maybe Mike or Craig could ask JVC?
It is being looked at, along with a couple other meters.
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It is being looked at, along with a couple other meters.
Thanks Kris. Do you know if they had a look at my suggested improvements here: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10385#msg10385
(https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10385#msg10385)
There are quite a few things they could improve in the software, along with supporting more meters...
Especially offering a correction matrix that would allow to correct any Spyder with a more accurate meter with the autocal software. If they supported the Calman matrix format, that would be great, we'd only have to copy the data from Calman into the Autocal, and we'd get spectro accuracy with any Spyder for gamma and color work. Even better if they could use the profile directly if we point to it. That way every time we update the profile in Calman, the Autocal would use the correct matrix automatically.
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I've been playing around with autocal + i1 pro 2 for my NX7.
When I do the gamma calibration, the d6500 is always around 6400k (100% Grey) and 6700k (50% grey).
Any tips on how to fix this? I just end up doing a manual calibration with HFCR since that seems to be more accurate.
Also, it seems that HCFR needs to use its own driver for the i1pro2? and that driver is not compatible with Autocal. Am I missing something here?
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I've been playing around with autocal + i1 pro 2 for my NX7.
When I do the gamma calibration, the d6500 is always around 6400k (100% Grey) and 6700k (50% grey).
Any tips on how to fix this? I just end up doing a manual calibration with HFCR since that seems to be more accurate.
Also, it seems that HCFR needs to use its own driver for the i1pro2? and that driver is not compatible with Autocal. Am I missing something here?
Make sure that you reset the color temp settings before running the autocal, otherwise they will be applied when the software runs a log post calibration.
Some software (HCFR, DisplayCAL) need specific drivers for the i1pro2, usually Argyll ones. You need to disable them in the control panel using software that use their own drivers, such as the JVC Autocal. This should be explained in the HCFR manual, otherwise please ask in an HCFR support thread.
There is no such issue with Calman or Lightspace as they use their own drivers.
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Thanks Manni, the pj was never calibrated before and I have never changed the colour temp settings.
I had the same issue when I was calibrating my x7500 + spyder 5. Could it be that Autocal doesnt work well with ALR screen? I am using cinegrey 3d.
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Thanks Manni, the pj was never calibrated before and I have never changed the colour temp settings.
I had the same issue when I was calibrating my x7500 + spyder 5. Could it be that Autocal doesnt work well with ALR screen? I am using cinegrey 3d.
The Autocal works fine with my color neutral Carada BW.
Do you set the screen type to the correct code after calibration? I',m not familiar with your screen. If it isn't in the list, please get in touch with JVC, or experiment to try to find the closest one.
Also please confirm you've read all the posts in the basic section and all the tips, because there are quite a few situations covered there :)
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I didn't use the screen adjustment code as the I1pro2 is facing the screen, so I assumed enabling the screen adjustment would just distort the calibration.
Yes, I've read your guides : )
Another issue that I have is that I can never get the green to reach 100% rec 709. I always have a de of around 2-3 with my x7500 / N7. At first I thought it might have been a meter issue, but my i1pro2 also gives me the same result. So, again, it seems like my screen is causing the green deficiency?
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You are correct re screen type with the i1pro2 facing the screen, brain fart on my part, I was thinking Spyder :)
The green deficiency is most likely a native gamut limitations. As long as your saturations track properly below 100% sat, you’ll never notice it in real content, so just ignore it.
You could try to use the filter for your rec-709 calibration (using a rec-709F custom profile as there is no factory profile that uses the filter for rec-709), but it’s probably not worth it if the dE is below 3.
It’s unlikely to be your screen.
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Thanks for the reply :)
Yeah, I'm pretty happy with how the colours are tracking at the moment, so I'll leave it at that.
I'll have another go at Autocal after another 100h or so.
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Greetings,
The RS2000 has arrived...8)
Thanks to Manni for all of his hard work/input. I will be integrating the projector into my system over the next few days.
Regards,
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Ralph, be sure to let us know your thoughts on the new projector here or in the RS2000 thread. Always good to have more and more owners discuss this unit here on the forum!
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Greetings,
The RS2000 has arrived...8)
Thanks to Manni for all of his hard work/input. I will be integrating the projector into my system over the next few days.
Regards,
Hi Ralph,
You're very welcome and congratulations! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on your unit, and if you have any questions, don't hesitate!
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Thanks to Manni's "Hide" method for checking black level, I found out that I raised it by using a positive value for RGB offset. Oops.
Btw:
For gamma, I recommend selecting a 2.4 gamma (sadly 2.3 isn't an option, only 2.2, 2.4 and 2.6 are selectable). It would be great to have 2.3 and 2.5 as well,
Gamma 2.3 is available in custom gamma.
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Gamma 2.3 is available in custom gamma.
Of course! Thanks for the correction, I've updated the post :)
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OK...I got my RS2000 set up. Very good sample of the product. No bright corners as my X750R had and I'm impressed with the auto tone mapping on HDR from Vudu, Amazon, & Netflix. For UHD BD, I still plan on using SDR2020--I've had very good luck with this since not all discs contain the proper metadata and it's more plug-and-play for my wife.
Manni, one quick question. On your Maestro, what sync delay are you using? Also, do you have a screenshot of your "Macros" page anywhere? I'm using the Vertex, but I believe the screens are similar, right?
Thanks!
David
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OK...I got my RS2000 set up. Very good sample of the product. No bright corners as my X750R had and I'm impressed with the auto tone mapping on HDR from Vudu, Amazon, & Netflix. For UHD BD, I still plan on using SDR2020--I've had very good luck with this since not all discs contain the proper metadata and it's more plug-and-play for my wife.
Manni, one quick question. On your Maestro, what sync delay are you using? Also, do you have a screenshot of your "Macros" page anywhere? I'm using the Vertex, but I believe the screens are similar, right?
Thanks!
David
Hi David,
Glad to hear you're happy with your unit :)
Yes the Vertex and Maestro settings should be fairly similar.
I attach my Maestro settings and the corresponding JVC modes:
User1 is SDR Rec-709 (for bluray/dvd)
User2 is SDR BT2020 (with filter, not used currently, except for tests)
User3 is SDR DCI-P3 (that's the calibration that the SDR BT2020 mode selects when madVR sends the BT2020 flag)
User4 is my HDR10 calibration with filter that uses the JVC static auto-tonemapping (with a manual default when there is no HDR metadata)
User5 is my 3D calibration
User6 is max bright to measure brightness / bulb aging (never calibrated with autocal) in high lamp / native gamut.
I use Natural for my Humax HDTV satellite box (720p50) as I use an SDR Rec-709 calibration with CMD low (for sports).
I have a HDR10 calibration without the filter in the HDR10 factory profile, that I select manually for tests.
I don't use the Maestro custom macro mode as if I send HDR10 content from a player in passthrough, it's usually to test or for streaming, so I'm in auto mode and my User4 calibration is selected for all HDR content irrespective of the HDR metadata.
I use exclusively madVR and its dynamic tonemapping in DCI-P3 for all critical HDR content (UHD Bluray).
I've asked HDR Fury to support MaxFALL, as it might make it possible to improve the custom algo, but I've not looked into the custom macro since I got the rs2000 as its automatic mode is fine for most streaming and madVR's dynamic tonemapping does far better with UHD Bluray content.
Hope this helps! :)
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Thanks Mani. I'm afraid that 5 seconds is much too short if I'm using the Vertex to switch, isn't it? Also, is there any negative to send on every sync?
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Thanks Mani. I'm afraid that 5 seconds is much too short if I'm using the Vertex to switch, isn't it? Also, is there any negative to send on every sync?
Hi Dave,
I don’t think the Vertex adds much time to the switching, it’s mostly the projector. I would bring it down gradually, until you start missing some changes, then bringing back up a few secs. That’s how I ended up with the current 5secs (a huge improvement from the rs500).
Always switch between the two calibrations with the longest switch time when testing/deciding for this settings: one with the filter, one without, and one with the closest iris position, one with the most open one. HDMI sync time is also determined by the calibration settings (added time to swap filter in or out, added time to change fixed iris setting). For example, it takes a lot longer to switch between my sdr rec-709 (low lamp, no filter, iris -12) and my SDR BT2020 calibration (low lamp, filter, iris open) than it does switching between My SDR BT2020 and DCI-P3 calibration (same lamp, filter and iris settings).
I replaced the Vertex with the the Maestro before I got the RS2000, and my sync times didn’t change significantly (around 15-20 secs). It’s only when I got the rs2000 that I reduced the sync time in the Maestro down to 5secs. So worth checking even with the Vertex.
In theory there is no downside to not sync on each change, because the Maestro/Vertex is supposed to detect if the needed calibration is the same as the one already selected or not. For example, going from the menus to the movie usually doesn’t require a calibration change, even if it’s a new stream. So I suggest setting the sync time first with “send in every sync” enabled, then try to disable and see if you miss any change. If you don’t you can then try to reduce the Sync time a bit further.
The first change can be missed when the option is disabled, also it depends on the source and which mode you’re switching from/to.
if you don’t feel like you’re getting unnecessary black screens, leave it enabled. Otherwise, try disabling it.
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I have an RS1000 and was about to buy a spyder5pro, but it seems they are discontinued. I called JVC and he said they have been telling people to buy the replacement model spyderX. He said it would work. I'm a tad skeptical about everything :-). Has anyone here tried a spyderX?
steve
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I have an RS1000 and was about to buy a spyder5pro, but it seems they are discontinued. I called JVC and he said they have been telling people to buy the replacement model spyderX. He said it would work. I'm a tad skeptical about everything :-). Has anyone here tried a spyderX?
steve
The latest official word is that JVC is working on supporting the Spyder X. If someone tells you anything different, ask them to name their source and report back.
If the Spyder X was already supported, they would have added it to the list of supported meters.
Unless you can buy from a seller that accepts unconditional returns, I wouldn’t take the risk.
I haven’t seen anyone try and confirm it works.
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The latest official word is that JVC is working on supporting the Spyder X. If someone tells you anything different, ask them to name their source and report back.
If the Spyder X was already supported, they would have added it to the list of supported meters.
Unless you can buy from a seller that accepts unconditional returns, I wouldn’t take the risk.
I haven’t seen anyone try and confirm it works.
Yeah, I feel the same way. It was the JVC support guy at 800-252-5722. He "seemed" to know exactly what I was asking and said "another customer" confirmed it worked. But my thought is he might be confusing 5Elite vs 5Pro since I still see 5Elite available in a few places. I'm in no rush so I'll wait a bit. I'm probably going to take my PJ down so I can paint the ceiling anyhow and would prefer to calibrate after I move it back in place.
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Hi Dave,
I don’t think the Vertex adds much time to the switching, it’s mostly the projector. I would bring it down gradually, until you start missing some changes, then bringing back up a few secs. That’s how I ended up with the current 5secs (a huge improvement from the rs500).
Always switch between the two calibrations with the longest switch time when testing/deciding for this settings: one with the filter, one without, and one with the closest iris position, one with the most open one. HDMI sync time is also determined by the calibration settings (added time to swap filter in or out, added time to change fixed iris setting). For example, it takes a lot longer to switch between my sdr rec-709 (low lamp, no filter, iris -12) and my SDR BT2020 calibration (low lamp, filter, iris open) than it does switching between My SDR BT2020 and DCI-P3 calibration (same lamp, filter and iris settings).
I replaced the Vertex with the the Maestro before I got the RS2000, and my sync times didn’t change significantly (around 15-20 secs). It’s only when I got the rs2000 that I reduced the sync time in the Maestro down to 5secs. So worth checking even with the Vertex.
In theory there is no downside to not sync on each change, because the Maestro/Vertex is supposed to detect if the needed calibration is the same as the one already selected or not. For example, going from the menus to the movie usually doesn’t require a calibration change, even if it’s a new stream. So I suggest setting the sync time first with “send in every sync” enabled, then try to disable and see if you miss any change. If you don’t you can then try to reduce the Sync time a bit further.
The first change can be missed when the option is disabled, also it depends on the source and which mode you’re switching from/to.
if you don’t feel like you’re getting unnecessary black screens, leave it enabled. Otherwise, try disabling it.
Thanks Manni...you're the best! BTW...our trip got postponed until some time in 2020, so that beer (or two) I owe you will have to wait a bit :)
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I apologize in advance if these are beginner questions, I have been reading and trying but its a lot of info lol.
My setup is JVC RS2000 with an Oppo UDP-203 and Lumagen Pro.
I have done the auto calibration with just the Spyder 5 so far but I have the i1 Pro 2 coming to do a more accurate color calibration.
Right now what is confusing me is that the Spears and Munsil HDR test disc has the blue filter pattern for both 709 and 2020, if I check this pattern it is spot on for 709 but way off for 2020 (with the projector filter enabled). I have to go -20 on the color setting of the projector to make the 2020 pass the blue filter test (it also looks correct this way)? I have the Oppo feeding the Lumagen "source direct" and the Lumagen feeding the JVC SDR2020.
I am wondering if I did something wrong on the auto calibration. I did one calibration for SDR 709 (709 color, 2.4 gamma, 6500k) and one calibration for SDR 2020 (2020 color, 2.4 gamma, 6500k) is this correct?
I will rerun everything once I get the i1 Pro in (using Spyder for gamma only) but I am not clear if I should be doing the calibration twice or if one run through (regardless of color and gamma settings) just automatically does everything? In addition should I be messing with the brightness, contrast, color and tint once the auto calibration is done or should those all be zero'ed out and the auto calibration theoretically sets all perfectly?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Edit one more thing - Is there any point to getting Calman or Chromapure to do a 3d LUT on the Lumagen in addition to the JVC calibration?
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I apologize in advance if these are beginner questions, I have been reading and trying but its a lot of info lol.
My setup is JVC RS2000 with an Oppo UDP-203 and Lumagen Pro.
I have done the auto calibration with just the Spyder 5 so far but I have the i1 Pro 2 coming to do a more accurate color calibration.
Right now what is confusing me is that the Spears and Munsil HDR test disc has the blue filter pattern for both 709 and 2020, if I check this pattern it is spot on for 709 but way off for 2020 (with the projector filter enabled). I have to go -20 on the color setting of the projector to make the 2020 pass the blue filter test (it also looks correct this way)? I have the Oppo feeding the Lumagen "source direct" and the Lumagen feeding the JVC SDR2020.
I am wondering if I did something wrong on the auto calibration. I did one calibration for SDR 709 (709 color, 2.4 gamma, 6500k) and one calibration for SDR 2020 (2020 color, 2.4 gamma, 6500k) is this correct?
I will rerun everything once I get the i1 Pro in (using Spyder for gamma only) but I am not clear if I should be doing the calibration twice or if one run through (regardless of color and gamma settings) just automatically does everything? In addition should I be messing with the brightness, contrast, color and tint once the auto calibration is done or should those all be zero'ed out and the auto calibration theoretically sets all perfectly?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Edit one more thing - Is there any point to getting Calman or Chromapure to do a 3d LUT on the Lumagen in addition to the JVC calibration?
Hi there,
First of all, there is a bug in the Oppo 203 tonemapping, it outputs rec-709 even when it should output BT2020, so please confirm that you are not using the Oppo tonemapping but are passing through HDR and letting the PJ to tonemap.
As you suggest that you're using BT2020 and Gamma 2.4 / D65, it looks like you're using an SDR BT2020 calibration, that won't give the correct results with the Oppo. You need to passthrough HDR (so use a BT2020 PQ gamma D65 calibration ) or use an SDR rec-709 D65 calibration.
I've never used the S&M UHD patterns for checking a calibration as I use Calman, so I can't help with that.
You can't run a single calibration with an i1pro2 and a Spyder (if you want to make the best of each). You have to run a color only autocal with the i1pro2, and a gamma only autocal with the Spyder.
You could check the calibration with HCFR or displaycal, as they support both meters. Once you have confirmed that you are doing the autocal correctly, you can assess how far you are from reference and decide if investing in Calman or Chromapure is worth it or not. If your PJ is close to reference after an autocal and if saturations track well, it won't be necessary for most people. It really depends how picky you are, and what your results are. Look at my postcal results, you can see the difference with/without a 3D LUT.
I stopped using Chromapure ages ago, so I wouldn't recommend it. I would suggest to look into Calman or Lightspace to generate a 3D LUT for the Radiance Pro.
Hope this helps!
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Hi there,
First of all, there is a bug in the Oppo 203 tonemapping, it outputs rec-709 even when it should output BT2020, so please confirm that you are not using the Oppo tonemapping but are passing through HDR and letting the PJ to tonemap.
The Oppo is outputting "source direct" so for UHD its sending the HDR signal (which I understand avoids the 2020 "bug") to the Lumagen Pro which is doing dynamic tonemapping and sending SDR 2020 to the projector.
And by multiple runs I mean do I need to calibrate color and gamma once for 709 and then again for 2020 or does one run take care of both?
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The Oppo is outputting "source direct" so for UHD its sending the HDR signal (which I understand avoids the 2020 "bug") to the Lumagen Pro which is doing dynamic tonemapping and sending SDR 2020 to the projector.
And by multiple runs I mean do I need to calibrate color and gamma once for 709 and then again for 2020 or does one run take care of both?
Sounds good re the Oppo outputting HDR and the Lumagen doing the tonemapping to SDR BT2020. In that case I don't know what's wrong with your SDR BT2020 calibration. Maybe someone else will have an idea. I haven't used a Lumagen in a long time (since I got rid of my mini-3D) and have never used a Lumagen Pro, so can't help there.
If you change lamp mode or filter mode between 709 and bt2020, they are independant calibrations. So yes, you need to run one gamma (spyder) and one color (i1pro2) for each, assuming you don't want to be able to change the iris setting, otherwise you need to run a color calibration for each iris range that you want supported for each calibration (709 and 2020).
You might want to re-read the basic section, it's all in there.
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I just ordered an i1 Pro 2 and will get it next week Friday! :D
I have a lot to learn. So far I have got pretty good results with spyder5 for both gamma and color with autocal, but I am ready to take it to the next level.
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Any news on the support for the Spider X? Should I buy the spider 5 or the new X?
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Any news on the support for the Spider X? Should I buy the spider 5 or the new X?
The answer is the same. If you can wait, wait. If you can find a spyder 5 and need to calibrate, get one while you still can. There is no official news about spyder X supoort. It will come, but no idea when.
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The answer is the same. If you can wait, wait. If you can find a spyder 5 and need to calibrate, get one while you still can. There is no official news about spyder X supoort. It will come, but no idea when.
Thank you Manni, is it known if the X is superior to the 5?
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Thank you Manni, is it known if the X is superior to the 5?
It might be a bit faster and maybe a bit more accurate especially in low light thanks to a larger lens, but I don’t expect huge differences. I plan to buy one as soon as JVC supports them, I’ll report then on any difference. I didn’t see much of a difference between the Spyder 4 and the Spyder 5, so probably similar.
Here is a review (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/spyder-x-calibrator-review/) from a good website.
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According to this other review (https://www.diyphotography.net/diyp-tests-out-the-new-spyderx-elite-datacolors-fastest-and-most-accurate-monitor-calibrator/), the difference in speed is significant, but whether it's the software or the meter, it's hard to say. Accuracy seems improved as well, but unlike the previous website I don't know how reliable this reviewer is. Anyway I'll test it when it's supported and then we'll know if there is any improvement with the JVC Autocal software.
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@Manni, Do you always face your meters at your screen when calibrating your projector?
Like when you are profiling a colorimeter to a spectro, do you always point both the spectro and the colorimeter at the screen?
And then when you generate the 3DLUT, do you also point the meter at the screen?
I know the Spyder5 faces the lens for autocal, but I'm mainly wondering for everything else.
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@Manni, Do you always face your meters at your screen when calibrating your projector?
Like when you are profiling a colorimeter to a spectro, do you always point both the spectro and the colorimeter at the screen?
And then when you generate the 3DLUT, do you also point the meter at the screen?
I know the Spyder5 faces the lens for autocal, but I'm mainly wondering for everything else.
It depends on the meters and the software.
Obviously with the JVC Autocal the i1pro2 faces the screen (color only) and the Spyder faces the lens (gamma, and color if no i1pro2).
With Calman (or Lightspace), I train the Discus facing the screen to the i1pro2 facing the screen, because the Discus can read black or near black easily even when facing the screen. The spectro always have to face the screen to take it into account. When I had a meter unable to read black or near black, such as my old i1display2, chroma 5 or even i1displaypro in some cases, I would usually train the tristim facing the lens to the i1pro facing the screen.
In any case, the meter should always point to whatever it was pointing at when it was profiled to the spectro. You can't move the meter (even slightly) once it's been profiled. If the meter moves (say you bump into the tripod, catch it before it falls if you're lucky, and put it back in place), you have to re-profile. This is true for any measurements, including when profiling the PJ for a 3D LUT. Once profiled to the spectro, the meter doesn't move.
To optimize profiling with the JVCs, I recommend the following:
- Set the iris to fully open to maximize brightness before profiling. You can then go back to your usual iris settings to take measurements.
- In some cases, you might have to reduce the picture size using the zoom (in extreme cases moving the PJ closer to the screen) to get repeatable readings from the spectro, for example on blue or red. Don't change the lamp mode or filter mode as this usually requires a new profile for max accuracy.
- If making only one profile, always make the profile with the widest gamut you want to measure.
- At the beginning of each session, warm-up of both the PJ and the meters for at least 45min before taking any measurements, especially before making a profile. That's assuming a room with A/C or constant temp. If the room temp keeps changing (a small room will heat-up quickly with the PJ on, especially in high lamp, and the temp will keep going up without A/C), there is no way to make accurate measurements as the color temp keeps changing (significantly). The PJ needs about 45 minutes to reach a stable state even in a room with a stable temp, so there is no point running a profile or taking measurements before that. 30min if you're in a hurry, 15min if you're just after ballpark readings. Less than 15min warm-up, you're reading junk.
- Every time you change lamp mode during a session, light to low or low to high, even for a few seconds, you have to wait at least 10-15 minutes before doing a profile or running measurements. That's how long it takes for readings to stabilize. That's one of the reasons why I use low lamp for HDR. It really speeds up calibration to use the same lamp mode for all calibrations if you can.
- Every time you change lamp mode during a session, light to low or low to high, even for a few seconds, you have to wait at least 10-15 minutes before doing a profile or running measurements. That's how long it takes for readings to stabilize. That's one of the reasons why I use low lamp for HDR. It really speeds up calibration to use the same lamp mode for all calibrations if you can.
- Ideally with projectors, if you want max accuracy, make a fresh profile at the beginning of each session. Even if you put the meter at the same spot/angle/distance, there is usually too much drift to get accurate results from one session to the other. If you just want to make quick measurements, then a new profile isn't really necessary.
- Ideally make a new profile not only at the beginning of each session, but also for each calibration if you change lamp mode or filter mode. I run a fresh profile (I simply update the existing ones in Calman) for SDR Rec-709 (low lamp, no filter, iris -12), SDR BT2020 (low lamp, filter, iris open), HDR10 (high lamp, filter, iris open) and 3D (high lamp, no filter, iris open) at the beginning of each calibration session.
- For max accuracy, make sure you match the field of view of the meters, especially if you don't use full size patterns. For example, my Discus is one foot away from the screen, the i1pro2 is two feet away, so that they have the same FOV.
- Make sure both meters read exactly the same area of the screen (center). For this, I select the smallest sized pattern (2%), I display a 100% white pattern and I use the LED in the Discus to aim it exactly at the center of this small area. I then maximize brightness readings to set the i1pro2 to read that area as well. Then I select full size patterns again for profiling/measurements. There is too much brightness and color variation on the PJ panels to get accurate results if you don't make sure that the meters read the same area of the screen as precisely as possible.
- With the JVCs, I highly recommend to use full size patterns, because that's what the Autocal uses. Using patterns of any size except full size increases the mismatch between the Autocal readings and other software reading.
- During profiling, set both meters to the most accurate mode. With the Discus, I use long integration/high average. With the i1pro2 (it also works with all meters with a low light mode), I move the threshold for the low light mode to 500nits and the repeatability to the max samples, so that all measurements are the slowest/most accurate.
- Always check the profile before taking measurements. I like to set the color temp to exactly D65 using the spectro before running the profile. That way, it's easier to check quickly if the profiled meter is close or not with a single read. Then of course do a WRGB check.
- Always run a gamut measurement with the spectro at the end of a calibration to make sure that profiling didn't go wrong at some stage.
- For 3D, use 3D patterns (the PJ has to be in 3D mode and the glasses have to be on and synced) and profile the spectro with the glasses to the colorimeter without the glasses. Make sure you max brightness with iris fully open (and usually high lamp with 3D). You might have to use the zoom during profiling (make the picture smaller) to get repeatable readings from the spectro when reading with the glasses.
You can get decent results without doing all the above, but if you want max accuracy and a profile that's good 99.99% of the time, following each of the above puts the odds in your favor.
Hope this brain dump of meter profiling tips helps! :)
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Thanks Manni, your advice is worth considering, but I still have some minor irregularities. Gamma calibration via Spyder5 is OK but the color is somewhat delayed. I can't really fine-tune it with i1pro2. I compare the result with Calman and i think i make somewhere some mistake. Colors after calibration seem to me somehow scattered.
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Thanks Manni, your advice is worth considering, but I still have some minor irregularities. Gamma calibration via Spyder5 is OK but the color is somewhat delayed. I can't really fine-tune it with i1pro2. I compare the result with Calman and i think i make somewhere some mistake. Colors after calibration seem to me somehow scattered.
I'm not sure what you mean with "color is somewhat delayed" or "colors after calibration seem somewhat scattered". Run gamma only with Spyder 5, run color only with i1pro2, post logs/measurements in the Autocal for both and measurements with the Spyder 5 trained to the i1pro2 in Calman (make sure the profile is good) using full-sized patterns for both as well, explaining in detail what you think the issue is. Then we can take a look at the possible issue(s).
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Wow Manni, you wrote a lot! That was not expected.
Yes, your information is extremely helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to write it all.
How do I measure my calibration result quality in calman? Are there any special modes or settings I need to know?
After autocal, my high and low bulbs still look quote different and I would like to try and understand why they are different. I think looking at the charts that calman can read for me would be a good place to start.
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Wow Manni, you wrote a lot! That was not expected.
Yes, your information is extremely helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to write it all.
How do I measure my calibration result quality in calman? Are there any special modes or settings I need to know?
After autocal, my high and low bulbs still look quote different and I would like to try and understand why they are different. I think looking at the charts that calman can read for me would be a good place to start.
I didn't expect it either, but once I got started, I thought why not try to cover all the bases?
I don't know what you mean by "my high and low bulbs still look quite different". Are you talking about the picture itself or the measurements? Do you use a different custom curve or different settings in madVR in each mode to take into account the difference in peak brightness? there are some differences, for example you can usually reach a larger color volume in high lamp than in low lamp, which is one of the advantages of using high lamp, but your statement is a bit vague.
It would really help if you could post measurements, pictures, screenshots so that we can see more clearly what you're talking about.
Yes Calman measurements can help to check a calibration but that's a bit off topic if you're not used to the software. :)
I suggest you get used to Calman first (there are a few support threads around), then use the info above to create good profiles, and finally provide measurements taken in Calman showing the issues/differences between low and high lamp so we can keep the discussion on-topic. If anyone else wants to help re Calman, please PM SirMaster so that we don't clutter the thread.
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What I mean is that my high bulb color looks less saturated and colors overall look lighter than the color in my low bulb.
This is just after doing autocal with the only difference being changing the lamp power.
I don't use any different settings anywhere else as I am really just seeing it by toggling the bulb between high and low in the JVC which is also the only thing that I change between autocals as well (lamp mode).
This was the case when I did color from the Spyder, and is still the case after doing the color with the i1Pro2.
It's not a huge deal. In isolation I wouldn't really notice the difference, but toggling back and forth it seems that I like the color better in low bulb.
I just thought that the only way I can really understand what is fundamentally different about the color would be to measure it and look at the numbers. I don't know which is more "correct".
Like you said, maybe if I changed my bulb and also changed the nits in madVR at the same time it wouldn't be as noticeable of a difference. But I would have expected that to just change the brightness, not so much the color itself.
I can look at it with SDR content as well and changing the bulb to high doesn't just make the picture brighter, it makes the colors look a different lighter shade.
Maybe it's just how color looks when brighter? Again I don't know how describe it and thought that a measurement comparison would be good to tell what might actually be different about the color.
I can take pictures as well to try and show the difference I am seeing.
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If you change the lamp mode (i.e peak brightness) without changing the settings either in madVR HDR tonemapping or in your custom curves to reflect the higher peak brightness, colors will likely be slightly desaturated. There is a strong link between brightness and saturation in HDR on a projector. The higher the brightness, the more saturation, provided the source/pj/whatever does the tonemapping knows that there is more brightness to play with. If you simply raise the brightness without telling the tonemapping, then you'll likely get a slightly desaturated picture in high lamp.
Anyway, calibrate and set-up properly both modes, and if you still have a difference, then take measurements with madVR. If anything, provided that the calibration and the tonemapping settings are correct, you get more color volume in high lamp, not less, but there is no point comparing the two modes if you just change the lamp mode (even calibrated).
You can try the same in SDR, you shouldn't have the issue (provided the calibrations are good of course) as there is nothing to tune re tonemapping.
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I'm not sure what you mean with "color is somewhat delayed" or "colors after calibration seem somewhat scattered". Run gamma only with Spyder 5, run color only with i1pro2, post logs/measurements in the Autocal for both and measurements with the Spyder 5 trained to the i1pro2 in Calman (make sure the profile is good) using full-sized patterns for both as well, explaining in detail what you think the issue is. Then we can take a look at the possible issue(s).
It seems to me that if I release Autocal and calibrate colors with i1pro2, the resulting effect is worse than without it. Maybe this weekend i will have more free time for makes some photos with rezults.
Thank you
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Sounds good re the Oppo outputting HDR and the Lumagen doing the tonemapping to SDR BT2020. In that case I don't know what's wrong with your SDR BT2020 calibration. Maybe someone else will have an idea. I haven't used a Lumagen in a long time (since I got rid of my mini-3D) and have never used a Lumagen Pro, so can't help there.
If you change lamp mode or filter mode between 709 and bt2020, they are independant calibrations. So yes, you need to run one gamma (spyder) and one color (i1pro2) for each, assuming you don't want to be able to change the iris setting, otherwise you need to run a color calibration for each iris range that you want supported for each calibration (709 and 2020).
You might want to re-read the basic section, it's all in there.
Question regarding Calman, do I want to do 3d luts for both 709 and 2020, still trying to get comfortable with the software before I do anything beyond reads. Also do I want to use both meters with Calman, Spyder for grayscale and i1 Pro 2 for 3d lut? My first read shows that JVC autocal was basically spot on for 709 points....
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Hi Manni,
Mind sharing your tips to get i1pro2 to read gamma at low IRE levels?
I keep getting a reading of zero on the first gamma step of Red. (iris is already set to max)
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Question regarding Calman, do I want to do 3d luts for both 709 and 2020, still trying to get comfortable with the software before I do anything beyond reads. Also do I want to use both meters with Calman, Spyder for grayscale and i1 Pro 2 for 3d lut? My first read shows that JVC autocal was basically spot on for 709 points....
Yes you do need a different LUT for SDR BT709 and SDR BT2020 (it's not advised to use a static HDR 3D LUT because that means you can't use automatic tonemapping, whether static in the JVC/player or dynamic in madVR/Radiance Pro).
Unless you zoom the picture down to its minimal size (and even then, I'm not sure it will be accurate enough), you can't use the i1pro2 for a 3D LUT. It can't read the dimmest patches accurately, this will cause a lot of issues especially near black and with blue. You have to train the Spyder to the i1pro2 and use the profiled Spyder to generate the LUT in Calman. See a few posts above for tips to profile a meter to a spectro.
A 3D LUT will NOT visibly improve things if you're already spot on after an Autocal. In fact, it can make the picture worse. So I would advise to only make a LUT if there are significant errors that the Autocal and manual fine-tuning can't resolve. If, after setting white to D65 using the i1pro2, you have gamma/gamut (including saturations) under 3dE accross the range, and a colorchecker SG with all points under 3-4, I would say don't bother with the 3D LUT. You're going to waste hours of good lamp time for little to no visible improvement, unless you can get significant improvements with a Lightning LUT (which works well after an Autocal). Remember, if you're picky, you have to redo the calibration every 200 hours or so, due to lamp drift.
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Hi Manni,
Mind sharing your tips to get i1pro2 to read gamma at low IRE levels?
I keep getting a reading of zero on the first gamma step of Red. (iris is already set to max)
You can't really do a gamma autocal with an i1pro2, unless you zoom down the picture to the minimum size, and if that's not enough use a piece of white board that you bring closer to the lens (assuming you can't bring the PJ closer).
Otherwise, even if the value is non-zero, it's probably garbage under 10% white anyway, and not far from garbage under 20% white. When you read gamma with an i1pro2, you can see that anything below 10-15% is complete garbage and should be ignored, so you definitely can't use it for calibration of low brightness levels, it's not designed for that. A spectro is best used to do high brightness color work, or to profile a faster/more accurate in low light tristim such as the Spyder.
If you do manage to get good gamma autocal results with the i1pro2 without the zoom/cardboard tip suggested above (and even with that, I'm not 100% sure I'd trust the i1pro2), let us know!
I haven't tried to do gamma with the i1pro2 because I use the Spyder 5 for gamma autocal. So my suggestion is to buy one and use it for gamma. A Spyder 5 Express (if you can still find one) isn't that expensive and it does the job well.
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Yes you do need a different LUT for SDR BT709 and SDR BT2020 (it's not advised to use a static HDR 3D LUT because that means you can't use automatic tonemapping, whether static in the JVC/player or dynamic in madVR/Radiance Pro).
Unless you zoom the picture down to its minimal size (and even then, I'm not sure it will be accurate enough), you can't use the i1pro2 for a 3D LUT. It can't read the dimmest patches accurately, this will cause a lot of issues especially near black and with blue. You have to train the Spyder to the i1pro2 and use the profiled Spyder to generate the LUT in Calman. See a few posts above for tips to profile a meter to a spectro.
A 3D LUT will NOT visibly improve things if you're already spot on after an Autocal. In fact, it can make the picture worse. So I would advise to only make a LUT if there are significant errors that the Autocal and manual fine-tuning can't resolve. If, after setting white to D65 using the i1pro2, you have gamma/gamut (including saturations) under 3dE accross the range, and a colorchecker SG with all points under 3-4, I would say don't bother with the 3D LUT. You're going to waste hours of good lamp time for little to no visible improvement, unless you can get significant improvements with a Lightning LUT (which works well after an Autocal). Remember, if you're picky, you have to redo the calibration every 200 hours or so, due to lamp drift.
I see how to profile the Spyder using the i1pro2,is the Spyder ok to use for this and would I then point the Spyder at the screen to do my reads?
I played around more last night and the only thing that is baffling me is 2020, when I do a read of 709 (using the i1pro2) everything color wise looks pretty spot on but if I do the same read of 2020 (with the filter engaged on the JVC) lots of point (especially the top green) are WAY off so I am wondering if I am doing something wrong? I am using the 2020 default CMS and telling the Lumagen to output SDR2020 (verifying with JVC info). Anything else I need to do to get a proper 2020 read?
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I see how to profile the Spyder using the i1pro2,is the Spyder ok to use for this and would I then point the Spyder at the screen to do my reads?
I played around more last night and the only thing that is baffling me is 2020, when I do a read of 709 (using the i1pro2) everything color wise looks pretty spot on but if I do the same read of 2020 (with the filter engaged on the JVC) lots of point (especially the top green) are WAY off so I am wondering if I am doing something wrong? I am using the 2020 default CMS and telling the Lumagen to output SDR2020 (verifying with JVC info). Anything else I need to do to get a proper 2020 read?
The spyder points the way it points when you profile it to the i1pro2. It should work fine pointing at the screen, as long as it doesn't read its own shadow or the i1pro2 shadow.
You need to post screenshots, but there are two ways things could look like they are wrong in measurements when they are fine:
1) You have not set the target in the calibration software you are measuring
2) You don't realise that the projector will never reach bt2020, only P3. If you want to see a nicer looking graph, measure P3 within BT2020, not BT2020.
With the filter, the PJ can reach 100% of DCI-P3, but that's only around 70% of P3, so if BT2020 looks undersaturated, that's what it is.
If it looks oversaturated, that might be because you left the target on rec-709.
But again, without screenshots of your measurements, it's impossible to tell.
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The spyder points the way it points when you profile it to the i1pro2. It should work fine pointing at the screen, as long as it doesn't read its own shadow or the i1pro2 shadow.
You need to post screenshots, but there are two ways things could look like they are wrong in measurements when they are fine:
1) You have not set the target in the calibration software you are measuring
2) You don't realise that the projector will never reach bt2020, only P3. If you want to see a nicer looking graph, measure P3 within BT2020, not BT2020.
With the filter, the PJ can reach 100% of DCI-P3, but that's only around 70% of P3, so if BT2020 looks undersaturated, that's what it is.
If it looks oversaturated, that might be because you left the target on rec-709.
But again, without screenshots of your measurements, it's impossible to tell.
I get it now, the RS 2000 cannot even do BT2020? Should we still be using SDR2020 though it just wont get the full benefit or should we be using 709 or something it can do? I will do some screens this weekend, greatly appreciate the help.
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I get it now, the RS 2000 cannot even do BT2020? Should we still be using SDR2020 though it just wont get the full benefit or should we be using 709 or something it can do? I will do some screens this weekend, greatly appreciate the help.
Yes you should. Consumer sources output BT2020, which is used as a container, so you should use BT2020 when sending HDR. Saturations are tracking properly, and content rarely exceeds P3 anyway, so that's the way to do it.
Again, if you measure P3 within BT2020 you'll see nicer looking charts, and how much the PJ covers of what's actually in the UHD content 99% of the time (only a few titles are mastered to BT2020, and no one knows if the content itself significantly exceeds DCI-P3 anyway). Whether the UHD content is mastered to rec-709, DCI-P3 or BT2020, BT-2020 is always used as a container.
However, if you tonemap with madVR or the Radiance Pro, you can tonemap to DCI-P3 instead (discard the BT2020 container), and use an SDR DCI-P3 calibration that will produce nicer looking graphs when you measure it.
It's also easier to create 3D LUTs without artifacts such as posterization if the target gamut is not too far from the native gamut of the PJ. BT2020 3D LUTs are very difficult to get right with most software when the display only covers DCI-P3 or so. DCI-P3 LUTs are much easier to get right.
So to sum it up:
If you output HDR passthrough from a consumer source (UHD BD player etc), BT2020 is the gamut to use (with PQ gamma).
If you want to measure nice-looking graphs, measure P3 within BT2020, not BT2020.
If you use madVR or the Radiance Pro, and especially if you plan to create a 3D LUT, tonemap to DCI-P3 instead of BT2020 with madVR/the Radiance, and use an SDR DCI-P3 calibration in the PJ.
In that case you can measure DCI-P3 (not DCI-P3 within BT2020) and it should look fairly close.
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You can't really do a gamma autocal with an i1pro2, unless you zoom down the picture to the minimum size, and if that's not enough use a piece of white board that you bring closer to the lens (assuming you can't bring the PJ closer).
Otherwise, even if the value is non-zero, it's probably garbage under 10% white anyway, and not far from garbage under 20% white. When you read gamma with an i1pro2, you can see that anything below 10-15% is complete garbage and should be ignored, so you definitely can't use it for calibration of low brightness levels, it's not designed for that. A spectro is best used to do high brightness color work, or to profile a faster/more accurate in low light tristim such as the Spyder.
If you do manage to get good gamma autocal results with the i1pro2 without the zoom/cardboard tip suggested above (and even with that, I'm not 100% sure I'd trust the i1pro2), let us know!
I haven't tried to do gamma with the i1pro2 because I use the Spyder 5 for gamma autocal. So my suggestion is to buy one and use it for gamma. A Spyder 5 Express (if you can still find one) isn't that expensive and it does the job well.
I foolishly sold my Spyder 5 after I bought the i1pro2 :(
Anyway, reducing the screen size did the trick. Here's what I did:
- zoom to minimum size
- ipro2 is positioned 10cm away from screen
- the shadow of the ipro2 sits below the screen and the ipro2 itself is angled upwards
- ditched my usb extension cable and plug it directly to my laptop (not sure if this makes a difference)
After doing all that, I was able to barely get the i1pro2 inside the rectangle in autocal. Previously it was sitting outside the rectangle just like what you have written in your guide.
I haven't done a full check in HCFR, but near black readings don't have a red haze anymore.
That's enough for me for now :)
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I foolishly sold my Spyder 5 after I bought the i1pro2 :(
Anyway, reducing the screen size did the trick. Here's what I did:
- zoom to minimum size
- ipro2 is positioned 10cm away from screen
- the shadow of the ipro2 sits below the screen and the ipro2 itself is angled upwards
- ditched my usb extension cable and plug it directly to my laptop (not sure if this makes a difference)
After doing all that, I was able to barely get the i1pro2 inside the rectangle in autocal. Previously it was sitting outside the rectangle just like what you have written in your guide.
I haven't done a full check in HCFR, but near black readings don't have a red haze anymore.
That's enough for me for now :)
Sorry to hear about the Spyder, but glad the zooming tip worked.
10cm is very close, I'm not sure how valid the resuts are, but as it's gamma only it might be fine. As long as you're happy, that's all that counts :)
When you check with HCFR, make sure you use the i1pro2 at a normal position, and discard readings below 10-15%.
Then measure the way you ran the gamma autocal to check below 15% white, and check if there are any significant differences above. There shouldn't be, otherwise it means that the extreme angle used to avoid the i1pro2 shadow causes the issues.
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Hey Manni, I did some measurements and calibration on my NX5 the other day.
Just wanted to post them to see what you think about my results and to learn maybe what I need to change etc.
This was Spyder5 autocal gamma and i1 Pro 2 autocal color. Followed by i1D3 trained to i1 Pro 2 in DisplayCAL for 3DLUT.
https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/ (https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/)
It looks pretty good to me. I am surprised how good the rec709 looks after autocal, but my P3 does not look that great after autocal. It seems to be much improved with the 3dlut?
There are a few colors that have a higher dE but I assume that is because they are outside the gamut? My NX5 measured 88.5% P3 coverage and 89% volume.
FYI, I always had my projector 8-bit color mode (so I don't need report BT.2020) and used the DCI color profile for my P3 3DLUT.
But do I still need to worry about posterization with only 88.5% coverage? I’m doing everything with DisplayCAL with madTPG. I believe I am doing everything right but not sure if I could be doing something even better.
Here were the DisplayCal numbers after the 3DLUT profile was complete.
https://imgur.com/a/1mGxQwb (https://imgur.com/a/1mGxQwb)
Look forward to your thoughts, thanks!
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I find the graphs hard to read (I never used DisplayCAL for pre/post cal measurements, I always use Calman for that. I only ever used DisplayCAL to generate some test 3D LUTs when I had issues with both Calman and Lightspace, and I was impressed with the results). I'm not sure what is a target and what are your measurements in the graphs. Were you measuring saturations as well? Or were you only measuring the primaries/secondaries of the gamut?
From a gamut coverage point of view, the rec-709 calibration seems OK and the DCI-P3 is about as close as you can get with an N5 as it doesn't have a P3 filter, so all looks normal really. Green is short, and therefore all the points between green and blue are undersaturated, which gives you the errors you see. That's a normal result in P3 for an N5 without a filter. As long as your saturations track well below 100%, you should be fine, but I honestly can't see your saturation tracking on the graphs you provided.
In my experience DisplayCAL does a great job at dealing with understurateds gamut re posterization, so you should be fine. If you can't see posterization visually, you should be good to go.
My clips to check for this are the sunset at the end of the capture sequence in Mad Max: Fury Road (when Max is running after the car). If there is posterization on red, you should see plenty in the sunset. You can also look at explosions later. For cyan, I use the aerial shots of the sea at the beginning of The Shallows, after she first gets on the beach and she starts looking around. You should also see posterization on whatever is in her wash bag when it's present.
Frankly I don't see anything worrying for an N5 in your measurements. If you want more than 85-90% of P3, you need the filter (hence an N7/N9).
If you do get posterization, I would suggest you simply tell madVR to target rec-709 for all content (i.e. only load a rec-709 3D LUT and no other LUT). Without the filter, you're not covering that much more than rec-709, so it's better not to get posterization than to cover a bit more and get artifacts.
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Thank you for taking a look :)
You are correct there are no saturation measurements unfortunately.
I am only used to DisplayCAL and a little HCFR so far, but I am expanding my toolset and I will be able to gather more and better data soon.
Thanks for confirming that I am at least on a decent track. I know that the format of my data is not what you are familiar with, but I figured I would post what I had so far anyways.
I will make sure to get good saturation tracking measurements and check for posterization visually.
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So I did a whole re-calibration of my NX5 from the start with a fresh autocal and fresh 3DLUT.
Here are my results (everything is calibrated and measured against DCI-P3):
JVC Autocal:
(https://i.imgur.com/7p9Sl0w.png)
3DLUT:
(https://i.imgur.com/dxkbEe8.png)
Gamut:
(https://i.imgur.com/YPCgXov.png)
Video version:
https://youtu.be/WQs05LHycaM
It's pretty nice, I now got 90% DCI-P3 coverage and 95.8% DCI-P3 volume.
3DLUT was created in DisplayCAL with just 115 patches.
I really love the results that I see in movies when I toggle the 3DLUT on and off. Every scene is better with the 3DLUT on.
Thanks again Manni for all your help! I think it is time for a break for awhile so I can enjoy some movies!
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Glad you're happy with the results.
Enjoy your projector! :)
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Firmware 2.08
https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000/ (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000/)
Have not got to test it out myself yet though.
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Any rumors or news on support for the new i1Basic Pro 3 Plus?
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Any rumors or news on support for the new i1Basic Pro 3 Plus?
Not that I know of, but I don't expect much improvement from this model over the i1pro2 for our projector use. The black level is still 0.2cd/m2, same as the i1pro2, which is poor, so a spyder will still be needed for gamma. The max brightness is 5000cd/m2 (up from 1200cd/m2 for the i1pro2), which can be useful for brighter displays, but clearly that doesn't really matter for projectors. I don't think it will even bring much futureproofing for laser/BT2020 as it seems to be still a 10nm spectro. So unless it doesn't need dark calibration anymore (arguably the main downside of the i1pro2 beyond the poor low light performance), I'm not sure it's worth upgrading. I certainly won't unless I hear some real-life benefit for display calibration from an actual user, as I might have missed something in the specs.
Of course if it's your first spectro it might make sense to get the new model, especially if you plan to calibrate brighter displays.
Same as the Spyder X, I guess will find out when/if they are supported when a new version of the software is delivered with support for new meters.
So if you have a good reason to get the new model, I'm afraid you'll have to wait. Otherwise, nothing should stop you from getting an i1pro2 and a Spyder 5 Express or Pro and get going. :)
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If you want to use the JVC Autocal V11, you can use two families of meters:
The Spyder 5 Pro/Elite/Express
If you want to buy one meter to do everything with the JVC Autocal at the lowest cost, that’s the meter to get. It's not perfect, but it provides great results for a limited investment.
Cut...
Note that the Spyder 4 and older are NOT compatible with the JVC Autocal V11, hence can't be used to calibrate the native 4K models.
A Spyder X has been recently released, but it's not yet supported by the autocal (as of V11 1.10). Support might be added in a future version.
The x-Rite i1Pro 2 (you only need the basic version for projector/display calibration use)
The i1pro 2 is a very good, semi-pro, near reference spectroradiometer.
Cut...
The strength of the i1pro2 is gamut/color/white point correction. Its weakness is gamma calibration (especially in the low end), as they are not really reliable below 15% white when reading a typical SDR calibration of a JVC off the screen.
Cut….
So ideally the i1Pro 2 should be used for color (gamut/white point) calibration only, and the Spyder 5 should be used for gamma calibration (preferably).
Cut…...
If you want to save some money, there are two alternatives to the i1pro2:
- The EFI ES-2000, a clone of the i1pro2, that apparently is detected as an i1pro2 by the Autocal Software and possibly by other calibration software, but can’t be used with x-Rite software for licensing reasons. I haven't tried it personally but others have confirmed it should work.
- The older i1pro (preferably rev.B-D), that isn’t officially supported and has a smaller range (0.2-300nits). Still it can be used with the Autocal software
Whichever meter you use, you need the manufacturer's driver (Datacolor or X-rite) to be installed, not another third party (for example ArgyllCMS). Also, if the manufacturer's software loads a utility (Datacolor does), you have to prevent this from being loaded or it will conflict with the JVC Autocal when it tries to access the meter.
Hi Manni,
I can confirm EFI ES-2000 work like an i1pro2 in JVC autocal and in Calman - needs for boths only the driver "i1_x64.sys, year 2006 release" instead, the 2009 release of driver, works with Calman but not with JVC Autocal. Both the software recognize ES-2000 as an i1pro2 with hardware serial number. I think the principle it is valid for other software also.
Tank you for the suggestion, I have bought ES-2000 after I read your thread and now I am glad confirm your hypothesis.
In therms of hypothesis I think that the colorimeter EIZO EX3 is a sypder5 clone and in this case the cost is very low.
See the attachment.
Regards
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Thanks for your feedback and confirmation, I've linked your post to the "Which meter to use" post. :)
Nice find on the Eizo, which looks like a clone of the Spyder 5 Express for half the price. If someone confirms that it works with the JVC Autocal V11 I'll mention it too.
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Manni, do you know if the EFI ES-2000 will work with Chromapure? I'm assuming it will show up as an i1Pro2?
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Looks like official SpyderX support for Autocal is being added in the next October firmware along with some other goodies.
New features
Frame by frame DTM HDR. Can also be set up for scene by scene. (uses 18-bit processing to avoid banding)
Anamorphic D (for DCR lens owners)
SpyderX support for autocal
More screen calibration presets
http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2019/consumer/firmware_update.html (http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2019/consumer/firmware_update.html)
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Yep, it means people will be able to start buying a Spyder X in November.
Until then, a Spyder 5 is still the only option (besides the i1pro2 and comp. of course).
I plan to test a Spyder X whenever JVC release a new Autocal software, of course I'll update the thread then.
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I'm curious how the SpyderX will work. As far as I understand, it can't do 10,000 nits like the Spyder5 and it's not meant to ever read directly from a projector lens.
Both the Spyder4 and Spyder5 which are the only 2 other meters that JVC has ever used for gamma from the lens had a different sensor design that seems to have allowed that.
The sensor design and lens on the SpyderX looks a lot like the i1D3, but has no filter to use for reading off a lens.
I guess I can ask JVC about it when I am at CEDIA.
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Reading off the lens isn't really desirable as long as the meter is sensitive enough to read low light patterns accurately off the screen, so that the screen is taken into account without having to use a screen table. With the JVCs, I'd rather have a meter than can't read very high with better sensitivity in the low end to measure 33 steps for gamma accurately, included near black, than a meter able to read 10,000nits off the lens with poor low light sensitivity. Ideally, I'd want something like my Discus that can also measure black accurately for BT1886 and contrast measurements, but I doubt this will happen with Spyder X.
If reading off the screen we don't need more than say 500nits, and that's for those with a screen smaller than my monitor. I have 88" diag 16/9 nominal gain and I barely hit 220nits with a new lamp in high lamp.
Anyway, I find it easier to buy and test, which I will do as soon as JVC delivers the goods, but of course please update us if you find anything interesting at Cedia.
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So I was redoing all my autocal stuff today to try some new things and I found something strange.
For some reason my DCI color profile mode on my NX5 will not autocal.
Even if I run autocal when the projector is in DCI color profile mode it wont stick.
Autocal logs, calibrates, and re-logs the results properly. The autocal graphs at the end even show that it has been correctly calibrated by autocal. I click Save and it says calibration saved successfully. At this moment, DCI is actually calibrated, but as soon as I change any setting in the projector, like even change the iris from 0 to -1, the calibration disappears (I see the color change) and it never comes back. Even if I go back to iris 0.
If I switch the projector into HDR color profile or rec709 and run a verification via HCFR, everything comes out perfect, gamma is flat 2.2, white balance is 0.5dE max, etc.
And in HDR or rec709 mode when I move the iris between -4 and -3 I can immediately see the color autocal enable and disable as it only applies to -3 and above of course.
But back in DCI color profile there is no change between iris -4 and -3 and when I run a verification in HCFR, my gamma is around 2.0 to 2.1 and the white balance is 2-3 dE off like it's uncalibrated.
I tried multiple times and even restoring INIT and trying fresh and it's the same thing every time. All my color profiles calibrate perfectly except DCI
I am also on firmware 2.08 FWIW but it was the same problem on 2.07 as well.
Is this intentional for DCI color profile? Any ideas?
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This isn't intentional and the DCI color profile calibrates fine here. But I have an rs2000 with the P3 filter, so that's a difference.
Are you using the DCI profile in a factory Picture Mode, such as Natural, Cinema, or HDR10, are you using it in a User Picture Mode?
I'm using it in a user picture mode (User 2), and it works fine there.
So I would first try to see if it works from a user picture mode.
If it doesn't work from a user picture mode, then I would try to create a custom DCI custom color profile with the JVC Autocal using standard P3 coordinates (I can't remember if P3 is an option in the software or not), save it, import it into a custom profile slot, and try to calibrate that in a user picture mode.
Or use the profile I attached, but it wasn't created with V11 so I can't guarantee that it will work. I'll create a set of profiles from Autocal V11 to make sure that they work when I find a minute and will make them available for download. They can be useful, especially for those with an rs2000/rs3000 who would like to calibrate rec-709 with the filter or DCI-P3 without the filter, as these options are still not in the new JVCs (unlike BT2020 which has both BT2020 with filter and HDR10 without filter).
If any of that works, please report your findings to JVC (and let us know).
If it doesn't work, please report to JVC and see what they say. It might be a bug with N5/RS1000 models.
Good luck!
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Posted by Manni in the RS1000/2000/33000 owners forum. "Spyder5 for gamma and i1pro2 for color is the best combination if you want to be able to use the JVC Autocal (please ask any further questions on that subject in the calibration thread).
The Discus is a great meter but it's not supported by JVC (yet). Neither is the C6. As you already have a Spyder5, the best addition would be an i1pro2, so you can use that to measure color in the JVC Autocal and to train your Spyder5 in any other software supporting both (most do)."
Hi Manni,
Continuing our conversation.
I am a bit confused on the best inexpensive all around meters to use for display calibration.
I understand that the JVC Autocal software is limited in it's meter support but works with the Spyder5 and the iDisplaypro2 meters but I may not want to be limited to just JVC Autocal. I am thinking of buying Calman HDR calibration software to calibrate multiple TVs and my projector. I realize that I won't be making 3DLUT tables for the JVC like Autocal but I would think I could get respectable calibration using the Color Management System in the JVC projector.
My confusion comes from the iDisplayPro & Pro2. My understanding is that the i1DisplayPro is a basic all around Spectrophotometer that can be calibrated with the i1DisplayPro2 to be used for accurate calibration. Likewise I guess you can use the i1DisplayPro2 to calibrate the Spyder5 meter and use it for all around calibration. But the i1DisplayPro2 is a colorimeter and by itself it basically can only be used with the JVC Autocal software standalone. Is that correct?
I am looking at purchasing the Calman C6 2000 HDR meter for calibration since it is the cheaper priced all around meter. I understand it can't be used with JVC Autocal but couldn't I just use the Spyder5 meter for gamma and then correct my color using Calman HDR software and the C6 meter using JVC's color management system.
The C6 meter is about $750.00 whereas the X-rite i1DisplayPro2 is $1500 for the basic bundle software package. I haven't seen where you can buy a new calibrated meter by itself without the bundle.
Any information you could provide that would help me with the decision would be greatly appreciated. I have been told by the X-rite forum that the Spyder5 isn't accurate for low light color measurements and that the i1DisplayPro meter in conjunction with the i1DisplayPro2 colorimeter is the way to go. Is there really much difference between the i1DisplayPro and the Spyder5. It seems like you could use the i1DisplayPro2 to calibrate the Spyder5 and make it just as accurate as the i1DisplayPro? Or am I just completely confused?
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Posted by Manni in the RS1000/2000/33000 owners forum. "Spyder5 for gamma and i1pro2 for color is the best combination if you want to be able to use the JVC Autocal (please ask any further questions on that subject in the calibration thread).
The Discus is a great meter but it's not supported by JVC (yet). Neither is the C6. As you already have a Spyder5, the best addition would be an i1pro2, so you can use that to measure color in the JVC Autocal and to train your Spyder5 in any other software supporting both (most do)."
Hi Manni,
Continuing our conversation.
I am a bit confused on the best inexpensive all around meters to use for display calibration.
I understand that the JVC Autocal software is limited in it's support for the Spyder5 and the iDisplaypro2 meters but I may not want to be limited to just Autocal. I am thinking of buying Calman HDR calibration software to calibrate multiple TVs and my projector. I realize that I won't be making 3DLUT tables for the JVC like Autocal but I would think I could get respectable calibration using the Color Management System in the JVC projector.
My confusion comes from the iDisplayPro & Pro2. My understanding is that the i1DisplayPro is a basic all around Spectrophotometer that can be calibrated with the i1DisplayPro2 to be used for accurate calibration. Likewise I guess you can use the i1DisplayPro2 to calibrate the Spyder5 meter and use it for all around calibration. But the i1DisplayPro2 is a colorimeter and by itself it basically can only be used with the JVC Autocal software standalone. Is that correct?
I am looking at purchasing the Calman C6 2000 HDR meter for calibration since it is the cheaper priced all around meter. I understand it can't be used with JVC Autocal but couldn't I just use the Spyder5 meter for gamma and then correct my color using Calman HDR software and the C6 meter using JVC's color management system.
The C6 meter is about $750.00 whereas the X-rite i1DisplayPro2 is $1500 for the basic bundle software package. I haven't seen where you can by a new calibrated meter by itself without the bundle.
Any information you could provide that would help me with the decision would be greatly appreciated. I have been told by the X-rite forum that the Spyder5 isn't accurate for low light color measurements and that the i1DisplayPro meter in conjunction with the i1DisplayPro2 colorimeter is the way to go. Is there really much difference between the i1DisplayPro and the Spyder5. It seems like you could use the i1DisplayPro2 to calibrate the Spyder5 and make it just as accurate as the i1DisplayPro? Or am I just completely confused?
You are confused about these meters.
This explains them pretty well.
https://displaycalibrations.com/x-rite_i1_measurement_solutions_info.html
i (https://displaycalibrations.com/x-rite_i1_measurement_solutions_info.html)1 Pro 2 is a spectrophotometer, the i1 DisplayPro is a colorimeter.
Generally you use the i1 Pro 2 to create a correction profile for a specific display for the i1 DisplayPro colormeter.
The spectrophotometer always sees the correct light from every type of display (within its resolution limitations).
A colormeter needs corrections for different display types (White LED, RGB LED, Rg Phosphor LED, OLED, HLD Lamp, Laser, LED Lamp, CCFL, etc).
The correction makes the colorimeter see the particular display in the same way the spectrophotometer sees it.
The reason you want both is because a spectrophotometer is much slower and much worse at low light readings. A colormeter is much better at these.
The i1 Pro 2 is compatible with recent JVC autocal, but the i1 DisplayPro colorimeter is not. But the i1 Pro 2 being a spectro is not good for low light reading, so it is not suitable for gamma autocal. Color autocal only consists of reading a few 100% color patterns which are very bright, so it works.
The only colorimeter compatible with autocal is a Spyder5 and soon next month a SpyderX. The colorimeter is suited for low light and works pretty well with the gamma autocal.
Both the i1 Pro 2 and i1 DisplayPro are compatible with virtually every calibration software on the market. CalMAN, Lightspace, ChromaPure, HCFR, DisplayCAL, etc.
If you are going to do a lot of autocal, I would get an i1 Pro 2 and a Spyder. If you are are going to be using other calibration software, a i1 DisplayPro is a good budget colorimeter, but you can go for something better as long as it will be compatible with the calibration software you plan to use.
Personally I would rather have a ~$400 i1 Pro 2 (from eBay) + a $200 i1 DisplayPro = $600 total rather than only buying a ~$600 colorimeter with no spectrophotometer to correct it for each display you are calibrating.
If you don't correct the colorimeter with a spectro I fear the results will be worse then a cheaper (but at least corrected colormeter).
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Ok thank you SirMaster. That helps a lot.
When you use the i1DisplayPro2 for correcting the i1DisplayPro is this usually done within the specific calibration software like Calman or LightSpace? or does it require a separate set of software from X-rite specifically for this task?
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Ok thank you SirMaster. That helps a lot.
When you use the i1DisplayPro2 for correcting the i1DisplayPro is this usually done within the specific calibration software like Calman or LightSpace? or does it require a separate set of software from X-rite specifically for this task?
You typically create the correction within the calibration software you are using.
And just to clarify naming, because it's less confusing once you understand it.
The spectrophotometer is "i1 Pro 2", there is no "Display" word. It's the second major product revision in the "i1 Pro" spectrophotmeter product line. Technically it's "i1 Pro Rev. E" which is also called "i1 Pro 2". Rev A-D are all original "i1 Pro" design, before the "2" new design.
The "Display" name is for the colorimeter only. "i1Display Pro 3" is the colorimeter. It's technically the 3rd major version of that product line. The model number EODIS3.
People sometimes call it i1D3.
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Thanks Sirmaster for the detailed summary, nothing to add except that GregCh has indicated in the other thread that he already owns a Spyder 5 Elite. This is why I suggested the i1pro2 as the best choice in his situation if he wanted to gain anything by adding another tool to his toolbox, both with the JVC Autocal and with any other software.
Also GregCH you might want to look at the first post to see how the thread is organized. In the basic section there is a post called "Which meter to choose? (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10387#msg10387)" that will give you lots of info regarding each strength and weaknesses of each meter.
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Thanks Sirmaster for the detailed summary, nothing to add except that GregCh has indicated in the other thread that he already owns a Spyder 5 Elite. This is why I suggested the i1pro2 as the best choice in his situation if he wanted to gain anything by adding another tool to his toolbox, both with the JVC Autocal and with any other software.
Thanks Manni!
Just one more question. If I bought just the i1 pro 2 meter and I wanted to use Calman or LightSpace to calibrate a display other than the JVC projector, could I use the i1 Pro 2 to color correct my Spyder5 meter and use that for calibration with those packages? or do I need the i1DisplayPro meter and my Spyder5 is only good for gamma Autocal with the JVC.
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Ah yeah good deal. The Spyder is certainly handy for fixing gamma droop that every JVC will suffer from.
I feel like with the combination of the i1 Pro 2 and i1Display Pro 3 along with free software such as HCFR and DisplayCAL I can calibrate essentially anything. I have already calibrated a handful of projectors including JVC RS400, RS600, RS620, NX5, NX7, Sony HW50ES, HW55ES, Epson LS10500, Panasonic PT-AE8000U, and BenQ LK970.
I have also calibrated a bunch of computer monitors and a few TVs and so far with the combination of these 2 meters I am getting very consistently measured and consistent looking results on all the displays I have calibrated.
I find the free HCFR and DisplayCAL sufficient, but feel free to go with something like CalMAN if you want workflows or Lightspace or ChromaPure too.
I don't think there is a more cost-effective way to great calibration than this and again the great this is these 2 meters work with all the software, so you will never feel locked into anything.
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Thanks Manni!
Just one more question. If I bought just the i1 pro 2 meter and I wanted to use Calman or LightSpace to calibrate a display other than the JVC projector, could I use the i1 Pro 2 to color correct my Spyder5 meter and use that for calibration with those packages? or do I need the i1DisplayPro meter and my Spyder5 is only good for gamma Autocal with the JVC.
You'll be able to use the i1pro2 to correct your Spyder 5 with any calibration software. As far as I know, they all support both, hence my recommendation :). Calman and Lightspace definitely do.
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Ah yeah good deal. The Spyder is certainly handy for fixing gamma droop that every JVC will suffer from.
I feel like with the combination of the i1 Pro 2 and i1Display Pro 3 along with free software such as HCFR and DisplayCAL I can calibrate essentially anything. I have already calibrated a handful of projectors including JVC RS400, RS600, RS620, NX5, NX7, Sony HW50ES, HW55ES, Epson LS10500, Panasonic PT-AE8000U, and BenQ LK970.
I have also calibrated a bunch of computer monitors and a few TVs and so far with the combination of these 2 meters I am getting very consistently measured and consistent looking results on all the displays I have calibrated.
I find the free HCFR and DisplayCAL sufficient, but feel free to go with something like CalMAN if you want workflows or Lightspace or ChromaPure too.
I don't think there is a more cost-effective way to great calibration than this and again the great this is these 2 meters work with all the software, so you will never feel locked into anything.
Did you miss the part where I said that GregCH already owns a Spyder 5 Elite? :)
There is no point in buying an i1d3 when you already have a Spyder 5 Elite, especially for JVC Autocal use.
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Thanks Manni!
Just one more question. If I bought just the i1 pro 2 meter and I wanted to use Calman or LightSpace to calibrate a display other than the JVC projector, could I use the i1 Pro 2 to color correct my Spyder5 meter and use that for calibration with those packages? or do I need the i1DisplayPro meter and my Spyder5 is only good for gamma Autocal with the JVC.
I have both a Spyder5 and the i1Display Pro 3.
It's true you can correct the Spyder5 with the i2 Pro 2 for use with calibration software other than autocal.
It will read the light correctly then on all different display types, but in my experience, the Spyder5 is not as consistent in its readings to get a really great calibration. So it just depends on your goal for how accurate you want your calibration.
Also, the Spyder5 is not as good at reading low light off a projection screen which is normally how you would want to calibrate a projector so as to take into account the screen's color.
Finally, the Spyder5 is significantly slower than the i1Display Pro 3. Like 5x slower. So if you will be making any 3D LUTs, you would want the i1Display Pro 3 as it can save hours and will result in a much more consistent 3D LUT.
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I have both a Spyder5 and the i1Display Pro 3.
It's true you can correct the Spyder5 with the i2 Pro 2 for use with calibration software other than autocal.
It will read the light correctly then on all different display types, but in my experience, the Spyder5 is not as consistent in its readings to get a really great calibration. So it just depends on your goal for how accurate you want your calibration.
Also, the Spyder5 is not as good at reading low light off a projection screen which is normally how you would want to calibrate a projector so as to take into account the screen's color.
Finally, the Spyder5 is significantly slower than the i1Display Pro 3. Like 5x slower. So if you will be making any 3D LUTs, you would want the i1Display Pro 3 as it can save hours and will result in a much more consistent 3D LUT.
Yes, yes, but GregCH already owns a Spyder 5 Elite :)
He doesn't want or even need to buy three meters. and he'll get a lot more from an i1pro2 (or compatible, I hope he's seen my edit about looking at the first post and the "Which Meter to use?" section, which lists far less expensive options than the i1pro2 basic package).
If he wants a better meter than the Spyder 5 with an i1pro2, then he should get a Discus, not an i1d3 which has very poor low light and is unable to read black.
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Did you miss the part where I said that GregCH already owns a Spyder 5 Elite? :)
No I got that haha. That was my "ah yeah good deal" part about already having a Spyder. I know it wasn't clear.
I guess I was just "adding" on to my previous thoughts about how well I think the combination of the 2 X-rite meters is for the price and if he finds himself wanting more consistency, low light, and speed than the Spyder5, to think about a i1Display Pro. Or another better quality meter if he decides on a calibration software by then and picks a colorimeter compatible with it.
Your Discus is great, but unfortunately not compatible with the free tools :( which I find are pretty great. I am getting really great results from HCFR for manual stuff and DisplayCAL 3D LUTs now that I have my process more refined.
But yes I agree he should start with a i1 Pro 2 with the Spyder5. And he can look into a i1Display Pro or other colorimeter (depending on cal software compatibility) If he finds the Spyder5 is not up to the task (consistency, low light, speed) he is asking of it.
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No I got that haha. That was my "ah yeah good deal" part about already having a Spyder. I know it wasn't clear.
I guess I was just "adding" on to my previous thoughts about how well I think the combination of the 2 X-rite meters is for the price and if he finds himself wanting more consistency, low light, and speed than the Spyder5, to think about a i1Display Pro. Or another better quality meter if he decides on a calibration software by then and picks a colorimeter compatible with it.
Your Discus is great, but unfortunately not compatible with the free tools :( which I find are pretty great. I am getting really great results from HCFR for manual stuff and DisplayCAL 3D LUTs now that I have my process more refined.
But yes I agree he should start with a i1 Pro 2 with the Spyder5.
Yes, but did you read the part where he mentioned Calman and Lightspace ? :)
I'd be using DisplayCAL a lot more if it had support for the Discus, but unfortunately Graeme (developer of ArgyllCMS) has made it very clear that it's not going to come any time soon unless someone sends him one (as a gift, not as a loan) which I'm not prepared to do. :)
Anyway, glad we agree about the first step, now back to the JVC Autocal...
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I just wanted him to have budget options.
The Discuss is great of course, but it's £750.00 = $920 USD as far as I can tell. You can find the i1D3 for under $200 in the states. If you need to measure black then yes go Discuss. But if you like power gamma 2.2, 2.4, etc and don't need BT.1886, I have so far found that the i1D3 has no problems reading dark patches for 3DLUT on JVC off the screen, or 5% grey, etc.
Maybe this is not good enough, but for me so far it has been.
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Is the EFI ES-2000 the same as the i1 Pro 2? Are there issues with using the EFI meter with JVC Autocal, LightSpace or Calman?
I found brand new full warranty EFI ES-2000 meters at Newegg software in the US for under $800. Best I could find a non-ebay i1 Pro 2 was $1165 US.
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Is the EFI ES-2000 the same as the i1 Pro 2? Are there issues with using the EFI meter with JVC Autocal, LightSpace or Calman?
I found brand new full warranty EFI ES-2000 meters at Newegg software in the US for under $800. Best I could find a non-ebay i1 Pro 2 was $1165 US.
The hardware is the same, but the firmware may differ.
I know it will work in autocal, and DisplayCAL, but I do not know about other software unfortunately. I would guess that it does, but I cannot be completely sure.
If you search around more I think you should be able to find the answer.
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Thanks for your feedback and confirmation, I've linked your post to the "Which meter to use" post. :)
Nice find on the Eizo, which looks like a clone of the Spyder 5 Express for half the price. If someone confirms that it works with the JVC Autocal V11 I'll mention it too.
Hi Manni,
I can confirm Eizo Ex3 is a Spyder 5 clone. Connected to PC, with windows10, default name is Spyder 5 and use the same usb driver.
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Hi Manni,
I can confirm Eizo Ex3 is a Spyder 5 clone. Connected to PC, with windows10, default name is Spyder 5 and use the same usb driver.
Great, thanks for this confirmation.
Just to make sure, you've tried it with the JVC Autocal V11 and the software accepts it as a Spyder 5?
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Looks like official SpyderX support for Autocal is being added in the next October firmware along with some other goodies.
New features
Frame by frame DTM HDR. Can also be set up for scene by scene. (uses 18-bit processing to avoid banding)
Anamorphic D (for DCR lens owners)
SpyderX support for autocal
More screen calibration presets
http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2019/consumer/firmware_update.html (http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2019/consumer/firmware_update.html)
Other than SpyderX, the main improvement will be software in the HDR management, improvement as the HDR Adaptive frame, new default profiles as MadVR etc.
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Great, thanks for this confirmation.
Just to make sure, you've tried it with the JVC Autocal V11 and the software accepts it as a Spyder 5?
Hi Manni, this evening I will try with JVC Autocal and Calman.
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Hi Manni, this evening I will try with JVC Autocal and Calman.
Thanks, as soon as you confirm I'll link your confirmation in the "Which meter to use?" post.
I had already added there last week the information that Spyder X support was coming with the new f/w, but you gave the other improvements a lot more visibility with your (re)post above. :)
I have received a Spyder X yesterday (there is/was a significant discount on Amazon UK, so I took advantage of it as I wasn't sure if it would last or not). I haven't had the time to test it yet but I will. Not sure if Calman supports it yet, but Lightspace does. I'd like to check primarily the speed, which is apparently faster but it could be a software change, and the sensitivity near black. I hope to be able to post comparisons and first impressions by the time the Autocal software supporting it is released, so that people can decide if it's worth to upgrade or not if you already have a Spyder 5.
I already know that I don't like the new color. Anything white gets a thumb down in my bat cave, it hurts my eyes, but it's a meter, so I don't really mind, it won't be in my field of vision when I watch a film. :)
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Thanks, as soon as you confirm I'll link your confirmation in the "Which meter to use?" post.
I had already added there last week the information that Spyder X support was coming with the new f/w, but you gave the other improvements a lot more visibility with your (re)post above. :)
I have received a Spyder X yesterday (there is/was a significant discount on Amazon UK, so I took advantage of it as I wasn't sure if it would last or not). I haven't had the time to test it yet but I will. Not sure if Calman supports it yet, but Lightspace does. I'd like to check primarily the speed, which is apparently faster but it could be a software change, and the sensitivity near black. I hope to be able to post comparisons and first impressions by the time the Autocal software supporting it is released, so that people can decide if it's worth to upgrade or not if you already have a Spyder 5.
I already know that I don't like the new color. Anything white gets a thumb down in my bat cave, it hurts my eyes, but it's a meter, so I don't really mind, it won't be in my field of vision when I watch a film. :)
Hi Manni, I tried Eizo E3X, it doesn't work neither with Calman nor with JVC Autocal. Also I tried with Spyder5 express proprietary software, it don't recognize the manufacturing, accept E3X as a spyder5 but highlights a wrong vendor and stops running. Me too received a Spyder X yesterday (the same discount in Amazon IT I think) about I have had the same impressions as yours. I tried it with Calman but doesen't work, for JVC autocal it is need to wait the next firmware release . If JVC keep what it promised, I think in the October a lot of external upscaling processors/HDR optimizers for the new JVC N/RS series could be unnecessary. In that case, a color calibration, with I1Pro/ES2000, and Gamma with SpyderX will be enough for a lot of profiles.
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Hi Manni, I tried Eizo E3X, it doesn't work neither with Calman nor with JVC Autocal. Also I tried with Spyder5 express proprietary software, it don't recognize the manufacturing, accept E3X as a spyder5 but highlights a wrong vendor and stops running. Me too received a Spyder X yesterday (the same discount in Amazon IT I think) about I have had the same impressions as yours. I tried it with Calman but doesen't work, for JVC autocal it is need to wait the next firmware release . If JVC keep what it promised, I think in the October a lot of external upscaling processors/HDR optimizers for the new JVC N/RS series could be unnecessary. In that case, a color calibration, with I1Pro/ES2000, and Gamma with SpyderX will be enough for a lot of profiles.
Thanks for confirming that the Eizo E3X doesn't work with the Autocal. I've made a note in the "Which meter to use? (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10387#msg10387)" section that links to your post. Yes, the version of Autocal supporting the Spyder X is expected after the f/w lands (or at the same time). The discount is the main reason why I bought it early.
Thanks also for confirming that Calman doesn't support it yet, I'll use Lighspace to do some initial testing when/if I find the time and I'll report back.
I'm sure that the new f/w will improve HDR significantly in most situations, but having spent the last couple of years helping madshi with madVR development and following the genesis of the Envy, I can tell you that I will be very surprised if JVC's dynamic tonemapping solution doesn't have any issues. It's very easy to cause flickering, unwanted brightness changes and so on with dynamic tonemapping. We'll see. Exciting times anyway, and very welcome development by JVC! :)
I also doubt that the result will be as good as madVR or the Envy, but there is no doubt it will be good enough for many, if not most. I'm expecting to receive an Envy as soon as it lands, so I'll post my impressions in the appropriate thread when that happens.
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Yes, but do you know the price suggested?
$ 9.979 Envy Pro Cinema
$ 5.499 Envy Base.
Upper than N7 for pro, upper to N5 for base, have it sense?
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Yes, but do you know the price suggested?
$ 9.979 Envy Pro Cinema
$ 5.499 Envy Base.
Upper than N7 for pro, upper to N5 for base, have it sense?
To me, yes, completely, but as I said I don't expect it to be the case for everyone. Let's keep the thread on topic and discuss the Envy in its own thread :)
Thanks again for your confirmation.
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With 5-days left in the Loyalty upgrade sale for the Spyder X I think I will bite the bullet and upgrade my Spyder 5 (at least I can keep it just in case) and will get the EFI ES-2000 for color. Thanks for that great tip as the $1400 price for the i1Pro2 was a bitter pill to swallow.
Now I can sit down and spend many happy hours in the dark trying to get the calibration just right...of course once the new firmware drops. Also planning on doing a 3DLut but that's a whole different thread.
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Very good review of the Spyder X by Tom Huffman (https://www.chromapure.com/newgear-new.asp) (owner of Chromapure).
Twice as fast, 10x better low light sensibility (though not as good as the i1DisplayPro).
Based on this review, it sounds like the Spyder X will be a worthy upgrade for Autocal users over the Spyder 5, unlike the upgrade from Spyder 4 to 5 which was very minimal.
I'm glad I snapped one of these Amazon.co.uk deals :)
Still haven't had the time to crack the box open, the fact that it's not supported by Calman yet is a bummer.
I'll update the thread whenever I've had a chance to try it (it might take a while, I'm completely snowed under with work at the moment).
I attach the main results below (measurements taken by his CR300), please look at Tom's review (https://www.chromapure.com/newgear-new.asp) for more details.
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Someone brought up a good question on the "other" forum....
Do you recommend doing two calibrations if you use an anamorphic lens on a slider? One for the 16:9/lens-off then one for the scope/lens-on (horizontally expanded since I use an ISCO IIIL) or just the one at 16:9 with no lens.
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Someone brought up a good question on the "other" forum....
Do you recommend doing two calibrations if you use an anamorphic lens on a slider? One for the 16:9/lens-off then one for the scope/lens-on (horizontally expanded since I use an ISCO IIIL) or just the one at 16:9 with no lens.
I don't have an anamorphic lens so I'll let others reply, but I would expect that you have to adjust the iris to get the same brightness between the two modes, so yes, you would need at least two different color calibrations if there are more than 3-5 steps between the two iris settings.
Then I guess you'll need to different picture profiles to select the iris settings automatically.
But really I've never had an anamorphic lens so I'll let someone with first hand experience to comment on their best practice.
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…..
I'm sure that the new f/w will improve HDR significantly in most situations, but having spent the last couple of years helping madshi with madVR development and following the genesis of the Envy, I can tell you that I will be very surprised if JVC's dynamic tonemapping solution doesn't have any issues. It's very easy to cause flickering, unwanted brightness changes and so on with dynamic tonemapping. We'll see. Exciting times anyway, and very welcome development by JVC! :)
I also doubt that the result will be as good as madVR or the Envy, but there is no doubt it will be good enough for many, if not most. I'm expecting to receive an Envy as soon as it lands, so I'll post my impressions in the appropriate thread when that happens.
Hi Manni, from CEDIA 2019:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE8fkMKcpKI
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Received an email from Datacolor with a 30% off offer for the Spyder X. On their website they have a comparison chart showing the Spyder Pro & Spyder Elite. In the category of projector calibration they show only the Elite for projector calibration. The Pro is mentioned in numerous places on the forum for JVC calibration. Is the Elite the one to buy?
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Received an email from Datacolor with a 30% off offer for the Spyder X. On their website they have a comparison chart showing the Spyder Pro & Spyder Elite. In the category of projector calibration they show only the Elite for projector calibration. The Pro is mentioned in numerous places on the forum for JVC calibration. Is the Elite the one to buy?
No, they are just referring to their own software.
There is no difference between the Pro and Elite other than the features unlocked in their own software.
But I wouldn't recommend using their software. Use Autocal for your JVC, DisplayCAL for your computer monitors, and HCFR for other displays IMO.
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Thanks for the quick response. I intend to use only the JVC software.
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Good through the 18th. Use the Spyder Loyalty program to get the Spyder X at a good price. If you've owned a Spyder product before check it out. Be honest now;) Here's the link. I couldn't turn down the chance to get one at this price as it looks like JVC will be using this as one of the compatible units for their new Auto Calibration Software. Manni probably knows best but this is for the Pro version which is all that should be needed.
https://www.datacolor.com/photography-design/promotions/upgrade-to-spyderx-us-offer/ (https://www.datacolor.com/photography-design/promotions/upgrade-to-spyderx-us-offer/)
DEAL HAS EXPIRED
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Good through the 18th. Use the Spyder Loyalty program to get the Spyder X at a good price. If you've owned a Spyder product before check it out. Be honest now;) Here's the link. I couldn't turn down the chance to get one at this price as it looks like JVC will be using this as one of the compatible units for their new Auto Calibration Software. Manni probably knows best but this is for the Pro version which is all that should be needed.
https://www.datacolor.com/photography-design/promotions/upgrade-to-spyderx-us-offer/ (https://www.datacolor.com/photography-design/promotions/upgrade-to-spyderx-us-offer/)
This is for those of us that never register our products unless we get a better warranty lol.
Just ordered the SpyderX Pro. Great price, thanks for sharing!
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Other than SpyderX, the main improvement will be software in the HDR management, improvement as the HDR Adaptive frame, new default profiles as MadVR etc.
There is no new default profile for MadVR. It is simply a customized (and renamed) profile made by the owner.
And HDR Adaptive frame is still the same feature with a different name.
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Me too received a Spyder X yesterday (the same discount in Amazon IT I think) about I have had the same impressions as yours. I tried it with Calman but doesen't work.
Hi Ent,
Did you by any chance try to see if Calman 2019 R2 supports the Spyder X? I don't think it does, but I haven't had the time to test yet.
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Hi Ent,
Did you by any chance try to see if Calman 2019 R2 supports the Spyder X? I don't think it does, but I haven't had the time to test yet.
Hi Manni, you thought right, I tried but it doesn't work with Calman 2019 R2.
This means that who don't have an alternative at Spyder X colorimeter for use with Calman must to buy it.
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Thanks for your confirmation!
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I finally had enough hours (~120) on my RS3000's bulb to do a calibration. The attached was measured at my SDR settings on -7 low lamp (DI on manual for measurement). Has anyone else measured such a droop after so short a time? OOB measurements I've seen earlier were very good.
Also, the contrast seemed very low though taken off the screen (with a Discus trained to an i1Pro2 which in the past measured 65k off the screen with my RS600). I repeated the measurements at the lens with a Sper NIST certified (new earlier this year) meter, and it confirmed. With Hide I can get 47k:1, but the brightness control takes it no lower than 4k:1. This was with a 0IRE pattern from a Lumagen and duplicated with a test disk.
Will autocal help me correct the lack of contrast? I checked the dark level etc in the gamma settings, but everything is default. I'm going to try a factory reset of setting, and then an autocal if it's still the same - I can only think the internal calibration has 16 set incorrectly and hide bypasses it, since the brightness control cannot crush so that black is as black as hide. Fade to black in Auto2 is super dark though, so the DI works fine (and is why I've not really questioned it till now).
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This is highly unusual.
First, the brightness control should allow you to get the blackest black. On these units, it needs to be set to -2 or -3 most of the time, but there is unit to unit variation.
If you can get a blacker level with hide, something is wrong. Are you sure that your levels are set correctly? Try to force HDMI to standard or enhanced, or set it to AUTO and see if it makes a difference.
If the PJ is set to the correct levels for the source with the correct brightness setting, what you describe shouldn't happen.
Second, the JVC Autocal should be able to correct almost any gamma droop, but gamma doesn't (or shouldn't) affect contrast, as gamma only adjusts between black and white. It doesn't touch black or white, so shouldn't really have much of an impact on contrast.
Brightness will control black and contrast white.
If you use offsets wrongly (for example, by adding instead of substracting values), you can raise your black levels.
If you set gains wrongly you can also lower your contrast.
But a gamma autocal, while it will restore picture depth especially in the high end, because that's where the droop happens (levels at 70-95 are too high, gamma is too low, and the picture lacks depth), it should not change on/off contrast.
So my advice is:
1) Switch the DI off. It's irrelevant for now.
2) Check your levels with a black levels pattern. 16 and below should be black (not grey). 17 just above black, unless that raise the black levels at 16, in which case crush it. My recommendation is to set the source to standard (GPU full and madVR 16-235 if you use madVR) and the PJ to standard, but ideally test with a non HTPC source because levels can be wrong on a HTPC depending on the OS and GPU driver, so let's rule this out for now.
3) Adjust brightness so that using hide doesn't make any difference. For most, with the correct levels, it has to be set to -2 or -3.
4) You should get a native on off at the same level as what you measure with "hide", 47,000:1 native with the iris on -7 sounds a bit high but if you are at long throw, much closer to what it should be than 4000:1, which cannot be correct.
5) Once you get a basic working baseline, run a gamma autocal to get rid of the gamma droop. You should get a picture with more depth, but it shouldn't improve your on/off significantly.
Please let us know once you've checked your levels and set brightness correctly if you still have this issue.
You might have to use a difference source, reset the PJ settings to factory default or take the Radiance out until you get a proper baseline, then once you've identified the culprit, work out the reason.
There is no point in running an autocal if you have 4,000:1 native contrast with your current settings. That won't change with an autocal, so there is an incorrect setting somewhere.
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Thanks Manni. I hope to get some time over the next few days to try and rectify this.
BTW the 47k:1 is up against the limit of the Sper meter. Without hide it reads 0.13 lux and with hide 0.01 but that is its minimum reading, so could really be 0.015 (presuming it would round up to 0.02 otherwise) and so 31k:1 which seems more probable.
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Thanks Manni. I hope to get some time over the next few days to try and rectify this.
BTW the 47k:1 is up against the limit of the Sper meter. Without hide it reads 0.13 lux and with hide 0.01 but that is its minimum reading, so could really be 0.015 (presuming it would round up to 0.02 otherwise) and so 31k:1 which seems more probable.
You need to bring the light meter closer to the lens if you're that close to its limit when reading black. As long as you don't get closer to its upper limit, it doesn't matter where you stand. Try 3-4 feet from the lens if you're still within its upper limit.
The Discus should be able to read that on/off off the screen if you read it right after its initialization.
Black should read the same with and without hide if levels and brightness are set correctly.
Keep us posted!
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Hi, does some one tested thats new FW for JVC? What i saw and readed how will works there calibration? On all photos what i saw there is only option for "color temperatures" where you can set somethink... so calibration will works only by JVC Autocal? This is little confuced for me...
Thank you
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Thanks Manni. I hope to get some time over the next few days to try and rectify this.
BTW the 47k:1 is up against the limit of the Sper meter. Without hide it reads 0.13 lux and with hide 0.01 but that is its minimum reading, so could really be 0.015 (presuming it would round up to 0.02 otherwise) and so 31k:1 which seems more probable.
As Manni states, you should be measuring from the projector's lens, as close as you can get it without maxing out the meter for your peak white lux reading. Most of these meters are more accurate in the upper registers of their measuring capability. So keeping the black level reading as high as you can get it in lux on the meter should mean you're getting the most accurate reading your meter allows. This should be within a foot or so in front of the projector.
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My light meter was about 6" from the lens. I guess it is just not sensitive enough at the low end.
I can't believe I didn't check this, but I had a positive offset in the RGB controls. Redoing the D65 setting results in 34k:1 as read off the screen by the Discus :)
Autocal corrected the droop (though a strange result at 95%), but the gamma is much higher than the 2.4 expected. I'm verifying with Discus and Calman 2018 (last version of Enthusiast before they killed it), and have Calman set for power 2.4, and autocal correctly read my Picture Mode as using the 2.4 setting. The graph after autocal was only a tad off the 2.4 line. I can try later with 2.2 to see if it corrects it, but I thought JVC really used 2.2 and then calculated the other powers from it.
Note on the 95IRE reading, Calman's peak white workflow where it reads 90 through 100 shows no clipping, so contrast is set correctly. Average DE is great, was just expecting autocal'ed gamma to be almost perfect.
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Yes, as I said positive offsets for RGB balance is a classic mistake and the best way to raise your black floor and kill your contrast. Glad we've solved the contrast issue.
Re your post-cal graphs, this doesn't look like what you should get after a proper autocal. You should have a flat gamma at the requested target, not such a wonky curve.
Make sure you follow the instructions in the basic section, that the Spyder is positioned properly when doing the gamma autocal, and that you train the Discus to a reference meter before measuring gamma post-cal.
Also take screenshots of the logs taken after the autocal by the autocal itself, to see how it sees the calibration.
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I'm doing an autocal on my NX9 running v2.07 with JVC autocal v1.10 and I wanted to ensure the same specifics for the autocal apply as did for my old x970R on the other JVC autocal software:
a. gamma only calibration (using Spyder5Pro) in Custom1 with Rec.709 (non-filter) in low lamp with iris wide open to allow max. light - or, should I be using the Natural mode?
b. Brightness & Contrast @ 0
c. once gamma calibrated, all gamma curves used on modes that use low lamp are considered calibrated (including HDR(PQ)); any modes using high lamp would require a separate gamma calibration done while on high lamp
d. after initial calibration, take backup.ini file and save it somewhere safe to be able to restore to factory settings later if required
Did I miss anything? Anything to add?
(I can't remember if one gamma calibration calibrates every single gamma curve (SDR & HDR; low & high lamp; filter and non-filter) or if that was only for color calibrations)
Finally, a question:
1. I've decided I'm not going to do a colour calibration using the jvc autocal+Spyder5Pro. So I'll use my i1DPro off screen
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Yes, as I said positive offsets for RGB balance is a classic mistake and the best way to raise your black floor and kill your contrast. Glad we've solved the contrast issue.
Re your post-cal graphs, this doesn't look like what you should get after a proper autocal. You should have a flat gamma at the requested target, not such a wonky curve.
Make sure you follow the instructions in the basic section, that the Spyder is positioned properly when doing the gamma autocal, and that you train the Discus to a reference meter before measuring gamma post-cal.
Also take screenshots of the logs taken after the autocal by the autocal itself, to see how it sees the calibration.
Hi Manni, can I ask for a little more info on this, I saw Tim said something similar and not at the same time haha. He says to raise values instead of reduce but then says raising may cause black lift (which coincides with your view).
When adjusting RGB Low values the rule of thumb is to only raise the necessary RGB values to attain Grey Scale Balance, and not reduce values. This is to prevent 0% blacks crushing. As with the RGB High rules of thumb, this is not always the best approach as lifting values may cause black to lift too much.
Is this mainly concerning a 2 point adjustment (not a 12pt?) and what is the correct route to take, always error on dropping offset values when adjusting the low end?
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I'm doing an autocal on my NX9 running v2.07 with JVC autocal v1.10 and I wanted to ensure the same specifics for the autocal apply as did for my old x970R on the other JVC autocal software:
a. gamma only calibration (using Spyder5Pro) in Custom1 with Rec.709 (non-filter) in low lamp with iris wide open to allow max. light - or, should I be using the Natural mode?
b. Brightness & Contrast @ 0
c. once gamma calibrated, all gamma curves used on modes that use low lamp are considered calibrated (including HDR(PQ)); any modes using high lamp would require a separate gamma calibration done while on high lamp
d. after initial calibration, take backup.ini file and save it somewhere safe to be able to restore to factory settings later if required
Did I miss anything? Anything to add?
(I can't remember if one gamma calibration calibrates every single gamma curve (SDR & HDR; low & high lamp; filter and non-filter) or if that was only for color calibrations)
Finally, a question:
1. I've decided I'm not going to do a colour calibration using the jvc autocal+Spyder5Pro. So I'll use my i1DPro off screen
Please read the basic section (see post #1), it should answer most of your questions.
Once you have, please post again if you still have anything that's unclear. :)
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Hi Manni, can I ask for a little more info on this, I saw Tim said something similar and not at the same time haha. He says to raise values instead of reduce but then says raising may cause black lift (which coincides with your view).
When adjusting RGB Low values the rule of thumb is to only raise the necessary RGB values to attain Grey Scale Balance, and not reduce values. This is to prevent 0% blacks crushing. As with the RGB High rules of thumb, this is not always the best approach as lifting values may cause black to lift too much.
Is this mainly concerning a 2 point adjustment (not a 12pt?) and what is the correct route to take, always error on dropping offset values when adjusting the low end?
12-point is going to be a gamma adjustment as far as I know which is different. And a gamma adjustment shouldn't be able to affect black.
Usually the first point on 12-point is 5%.
With offset/bias control it seems to affect a gigantic dark range including for some reason black at 0%.
The other control in the 2-point is the gain which can affect 100% white (but also the 12-point gamma can't affect white and the 12th point is usually 95%).
So it seems by my experience that gain/offset(bias) or "2-point" is fundamentally different than the multi-points which have always seemed to be essentially RGB gamma adjustment controls.
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Hi Manni, can I ask for a little more info on this, I saw Tim said something similar and not at the same time haha. He says to raise values instead of reduce but then says raising may cause black lift (which coincides with your view).
When adjusting RGB Low values the rule of thumb is to only raise the necessary RGB values to attain Grey Scale Balance, and not reduce values. This is to prevent 0% blacks crushing. As with the RGB High rules of thumb, this is not always the best approach as lifting values may cause black to lift too much.
Is this mainly concerning a 2 point adjustment (not a 12pt?) and what is the correct route to take, always error on dropping offset values when adjusting the low end?
The main rules of RGB balance are:
- Never change more than two values out of three
- Never raise values, only lower, especially for offsets
- You might need to adjust brightness after setting the offsets, and vice versa.
- Never try to resolve 17 if that comes at the cost of raising the black floor. It's fine to crush or only half resolve 17. Raising black is a no-no (if you care about contrast).
Frankly, with the Autocal, there is little use for gamma controls. You just run a gamma autocal (preferably with the Spyder) then as many color ones as needed (preferably with the i1pro2) and then you correct 100% white if needed.
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12-point is going to be a gamma adjustment as far as I know which is different. And a gamma adjustment shouldn't be able to affect black.
Usually the first point on 12-point is 5%.
With offset/bias control it seems to affect a gigantic dark range including for some reason black at 0%.
The other control in the 2-point is the gain which can affect 100% white (but also the 12-point gamma can't affect white and the 12th point is usually 95%).
So it seems by my experience that gain/offset(bias) or "2-point" is fundamentally different than the multi-points which have always seemed to be essentially RGB gamma adjustment controls.
Right, I probably should not have mentioned 12pt in this case, I haven't calibrated since March and things get jumbled lol. So if calibrating the gray scale with gain and offset , on the low end you only drop values and try to never raise them?
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I was considering using the 12-point gamma curve editor in autocal to fix my calibration after autocal, but I tihnk maybe I just need to try running it all again.
For some reason on my latest autocal I did not get very good results when I went to measure them after.
Stock:
https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/stock.pdf (https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/stock.pdf)
Autocal:
https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/autocal.pdf (https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/autocal.pdf)
3DLUT:
https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/3dlut.pdf (https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/3dlut.pdf)
Autocal was run with Spyder5 and i1Pro2.
Measurements were done with i1D3 trained to the i1Pro2 (in the same configuration as used for the autocal). 3DLUT was also done with the i1D3 (via DisplayCAL) in the same configuration as used for the measurements.
At this point though I am thinking I will just wait for firmware 3.10 before I go redo autocal.
I am hoping that it also fixes my issue of my DCI color profile not accepting an autocal. Because I would prefer to generate my 3DLUT against DCI color profile rather than HDR color profile (BT.2020).
I wonder though, do you think if I create a custom color profile set to DCI color space that maybe that would accept my autocal? Any downsides to using a custom DCI color profile over the stock one?
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Right, I probably should not have mentioned 12pt in this case, I haven't calibrated since March and things get jumbled lol. So if calibrating the gray scale with gain and offset , on the low end you only drop values and try to never raise them?
Personally if doing a manual calibration I prefer olny using the gain control to set 100% white and then much prefer using the multi-point RGB gamma controls to set the white balance rather than try to do it all with gain and offset/bias.
In HCFR for instance you can enable to show the greyscale with gamma, so you are calibrating both the gamma and white balance at the same time bringing all 3 colors to 100%.
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Going to try autocal for the first time tonight. I read through the instructions (thank you!) and had one quick question. I see where you set your brightness, I have mine all set to -2 currently on a RS2000 to get the right black floor. When running autocal, do you use the brightness you have set or do you set it back to 0 prior?
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Going to try autocal for the first time tonight. I read through the instructions (thank you!) and had one quick question. I see where you set your brightness, I have mine all set to -2 currently on a RS2000 to get the right black floor. When running autocal, do you use the brightness you have set or do you set it back to 0 prior?
Keep the brightness as it's set. Most user settings are ignored during autocal. For example, your RGB offsets and gains are ignored (color temp settings), so you can leave them as they are in theory, but it's recommended to reset them so that 1) the post-cal log in the autocal is correct and 2) you don't forget to check and correct the gains afterwards, instead of having the "old" gains or offsets applied, as this will most of the time cause wrong results.
It's also recommended to use a 2.2 gamma target so you can see if your calibration is correct in the Autocal post cal log, as the "flat" line is always 2.2. Any other target, it's going to be difficult to know from the Autocal log if your gamma calibration went well or not. As all gamma curves are calibrated at the same time, you can simply select the best gamma preset after calibration.
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I had already done one color calibration for BT.2020 with my i1Pro2 and it looked great but I had noticed some highlight crush and blooming. Could have been my calibration, could have been my settings with MadVR but the latter looked great on my other set up so I did not think that was it.
I took madshi's suggestion to try a DCI-P3 calibration so I re-ran autocal on a separate user setting that I had already done a gamma and I can honestly say that I prefer the DCI calibration better than BT2020. The only way I can describe it is that it calmed everything down. The saturations looked far more natural with UHDs and even with BDs they looked awesome. I think this will be my new standard setting.
BTW, the JVC AutoCal is just freaking awesome. SO easy and quick. Can't wait to see if the new tone mapping firmware brings anything as close to MadVR for my other sources.
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I had already done one color calibration for BT.2020 with my i1Pro2 and it looked great but I had noticed some highlight crush and blooming. Could have been my calibration, could have been my settings with MadVR but the latter looked great on my other set up so I did not think that was it.
I took madshi's suggestion to try a DCI-P3 calibration so I re-ran autocal on a separate user setting that I had already done a gamma and I can honestly say that I prefer the DCI calibration better than BT2020. The only way I can describe it is that it calmed everything down. The saturations looked far more natural with UHDs and even with BDs they looked awesome. I think this will be my new standard setting.
BTW, the JVC AutoCal is just freaking awesome. SO easy and quick. Can't wait to see if the new tone mapping firmware brings anything as close to MadVR for my other sources.
If you use madVR (or the Radiance Pro), DCI-P3 is recommended indeed, especially if you use a 3D LUT after the Autocal, as long as you tell madVR that your display is calibrated to P3 or you use a P3 3D LUT.
BT2020 3D LUTs can cause a lot of posterization and don't give any advantage on our models as they don't reach beyond P3.
For consumer sources, BT2020 saturations is the only option, as they can't output DCI-P3.
Highlights crush and blooming in HDR is usually due to the DI, try disabling it, especially if the manual iris is fully open. The more open the manual iris, the more artifacts (at least on rs1000/2000, the rs3000 seems to be exempt).
There shouldn't be (m)any artifacts with the manual iris set to -10 or below. hopefully the upcoming f/w will improve this. I heard it might improve the yellowing, which would be great if true.
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Did a JVC gamma+color autocal tonight on all my used modes (low/high lamp; with/without filter; iris positions) and then proceeded to use HCFR and my i1DPro to fine tune off screen my SDR BT2020 mode.
I also set my screen type.
Brightness @ -3; contrast @ 1
My gamma is set at 2.4.
Required a -8 deduction in green gain and couple more less major adjustments in blue/red offsets.
Does that sound about right or too much?
When viewing a dark HDR movie (madvr is outputting SDR to this mode), I find I'm losing some details in dark scenes somehow - they seem too dark/losing shadow detail?
I'm wondering, should I be either setting gamma at 2.3; adjusting one of the gamma controls up; or, just increasing brightness to -2 instead of -3?
I can barely see 16 flash on Brightness -2 from my seating position, and can actually see 17 better @ -2.
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I setup 4 user modes as per Manni's setup guide posts, I'd like to use Natural for TV & Custom1 for film, as you have indicated, but if I calibrate gains/offsets on 6500 color profile for the SDR BT2020 mode (after autocal with HCFR+i1DPro), which other color profiles (7500? Custom?) should I use to adjust offsets/gains for the Natural and SDR Rec709 modes? Does it matter?
I tried measuring and adjusting SDR Rec709 mode with Custom color profile and it seemed I needed quite a bit of boost in blue offset to get it even close to true 6500K. Does that sound normal?
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Did a JVC gamma+color autocal tonight on all my used modes (low/high lamp; with/without filter; iris positions) and then proceeded to use HCFR and my i1DPro to fine tune off screen my SDR BT2020 mode.
I also set my screen type.
Brightness @ -3; contrast @ 1
My gamma is set at 2.4.
Required a -8 deduction in green gain and couple more less major adjustments in blue/red offsets.
Does that sound about right or too much?
When viewing a dark HDR movie (madvr is outputting SDR to this mode), I find I'm losing some details in dark scenes somehow - they seem too dark/losing shadow detail?
I'm wondering, should I be either setting gamma at 2.3; adjusting one of the gamma controls up; or, just increasing brightness to -2 instead of -3?
I can barely see 16 flash on Brightness -2 from my seating position, and can actually see 17 better @ -2.
If your SDR BT2020 is properly calibrated, it doesn't matter which gamma it uses as long as you tell it to madVR in the calibration tab. If you use a 3D LUT with madVR, it should have a target of 2.2 (it doesn't matter what the display is calibrated to, you can leave it to 2.4 if you want it to work with other sources). You shouldn't have that problem with dark scenes, as long as you use dynamic tonemapping and the latest test build, with the correct settings. Please let's not discuss madVR here, it will derail the thread very quickly :). All questions about the test builds in the madVR thread where they are posted, as they are not meant for the end user and settings change daily.
Back to topic. You shouldn't see 16 flash. 16 is black. It should NEVER flash. So use whicheve brightness setting that has 16 not flash and either 17 or 18 flash. Do not make 17 flash if it raises 16 and makes it flash too. That will kill your contrast.
-8 on green sounds a bit too much if you did the color calibration with an i1pro, but you shouldn't set your screen type when using the i1pro, because it reads off the screen so the screen is already taken into account, that's the most probable reason. It should be explained in the basic section, if it isn't please let me know and I'll correct it.
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I setup 4 user modes as per Manni's setup guide posts, I'd like to use Natural for TV & Custom1 for film, as you have indicated, but if I calibrate gains/offsets on 6500 color profile for the SDR BT2020 mode (after autocal with HCFR+i1DPro), which other color profiles (7500? Custom?) should I use to adjust offsets/gains for the Natural and SDR Rec709 modes? Does it matter?
I tried measuring and adjusting SDR Rec709 mode with Custom color profile and it seemed I needed quite a bit of boost in blue offset to get it even close to true 6500K. Does that sound normal?
I use 6500K (factory preset) in my SDR wide gamut calibration, and then I use a different custom color temp with a 6500K base for each separate calibration. Natural and rec-709 can use the same one as they should be sharing the same lamp/filter settings.
Make sure you don't set the screen type as you use an i1pro off the screen for color autocal, and see if it improves things. There shouldn't be any significant changes to color temp after an autocal with an i1pro.
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I completely re-did my autocal, following the steps (almost) religiously. I think I went wrong previously by missing the need to reset offset/gain before autocal, and set them back to all zeros and also switched my gamma to 2.2 so that I see autocal results as it sees it.
I started with color only using the i1pro2 (EFI-ES2000), and then switched to gamma with the Spyder 5. The pictures are from Calman with the Discus trained to the i1 using the same low light 500 nits settings and long integration etc - note I switched back to 2.4 gamma that I use. In the After Autocal result below you can see the RGB balance has divergent green and blue, red almost perfect, but after setting gains to -3/-9/0 (offsets all zero) the result is almost perfect. Contrast is a little down from last time, but this was at -6 compared to -7 before.
I'm not quite hitting green or cyan in BT709, and these results were with the iris at -6, so I may try my SDR setting with the filter in place as I have some light to spare.
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If your SDR BT2020 is properly calibrated, it doesn't matter which gamma it uses as long as you tell it to madVR in the calibration tab. If you use a 3D LUT with madVR, it should have a target of 2.2 (it doesn't matter what the display is calibrated to, you can leave it to 2.4 if you want it to work with other sources). You shouldn't have that problem with dark scenes, as long as you use dynamic tonemapping and the latest test build, with the correct settings. Please let's not discuss madVR here, it will derail the thread very quickly :). All questions about the test builds in the madVR thread where they are posted, as they are not meant for the end user and settings change daily.
Back to topic. You shouldn't see 16 flash. 16 is black. It should NEVER flash. So use whicheve brightness setting that has 16 not flash and either 17 or 18 flash. Do not make 17 flash if it raises 16 and makes it flash too. That will kill your contrast.
-8 on green sounds a bit too much if you did the color calibration with an i1pro, but you shouldn't set your screen type when using the i1pro, because it reads off the screen so the screen is already taken into account, that's the most probable reason. It should be explained in the basic section, if it isn't please let me know and I'll correct it.
When ensuring 16 doesn't flash and 17 does, is this as per what I see from my viewing position - or when I'm up close to the screen?
It's literally -2 Brightness from my viewing position (knowing up close 16 will flash if I walked up to screen to view). If I go to -3 from my viewing position I can barely see 17 flash.
Regarding the color calibration - I did i1dpro off screen - I did JVC autocal with Spyder5Pro facing lens before. I set my screen type because I used the Spyder5Pro. Does the fact I used the i1dpro+HCFR to fine tune after mean I should NOT be setting the screen type?
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I use 6500K (factory preset) in my SDR wide gamut calibration, and then I use a different custom color temp with a 6500K base for each separate calibration. Natural and rec-709 can use the same one as they should be sharing the same lamp/filter settings.
Make sure you don't set the screen type as you use an i1pro off the screen for color autocal, and see if it improves things. There shouldn't be any significant changes to color temp after an autocal with an i1pro.
Ok, that's what I'll do too.
Just to be clear: I use a Spyder5Pro facing projector for JVC autocal of gamma+color, then I fine tune with HCFR+i1DPro off screen. I had thought that the i1DPro doesn't work with JVC autocal (otherwise, I'd use that for it and then the fine-tuning off screen).
Finally - all of this calibration is a bit premature as I only have 73 hrs on the bulb (just getting practiced up for doing it a bit later once bulb burns in). On that last point, how many bulb hrs exactly should I be doing the real calibration after?
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When ensuring 16 doesn't flash and 17 does, is this as per what I see from my viewing position - or when I'm up close to the screen?
It's literally -2 Brightness from my viewing position (knowing up close 16 will flash if I walked up to screen to view). If I go to -3 from my viewing position I can barely see 17 flash.
Regarding the color calibration - I did i1dpro off screen - I did JVC autocal with Spyder5Pro facing lens before. I set my screen type because I used the Spyder5Pro. Does the fact I used the i1dpro+HCFR to fine tune after mean I should NOT be setting the screen type?
16 should NEVER flash, whether you have your nose up to the screen or from your sitting position. Better crush 17 than raise black (16). You should use the i1pro off screen with the autocal to do your color calibration. I think it should be supported. Then you only need to use the Discus trained to the i1pro to verify with Calman. This should give you better results.
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Ok, that's what I'll do too.
Just to be clear: I use a Spyder5Pro facing projector for JVC autocal of gamma+color, then I fine tune with HCFR+i1DPro off screen. I had thought that the i1DPro doesn't work with JVC autocal (otherwise, I'd use that for it and then the fine-tuning off screen).
Finally - all of this calibration is a bit premature as I only have 73 hrs on the bulb (just getting practiced up for doing it a bit later once bulb burns in). On that last point, how many bulb hrs exactly should I be doing the real calibration after?
As I said above, the i1pro should work fine for color autocal. Just check the notes as you need to use the button to make the dark reading so it's a bit tricky with only two hands.
I do an autocal every 200 hours, so it's never too early to do one and practice. Once you're happy with the results, just do a quick check every 100-200 hours or so, and if it needs more than just setting 100% white to D65, redo an autocal. I have checked at 500 hours and it hasn't drifted at all since my last autocal at 300 hours, so after a while it settles a bit.
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I completely re-did my autocal
This looks very good, well done! Enjoy your calibrated PJ :)
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16 should NEVER flash, whether you have your nose up to the screen or from your sitting position. Better crush 17 than raise black (16). You should use the i1pro off screen with the autocal to do your color calibration. I think it should be supported. Then you only need to use the Discus trained to the i1pro to verify with Calman. This should give you better results.
Ok, got it on the Brightness setting.
I didn't think the xRite i1Display Pro is supported by autocal - only the i1D2...isn't that right?
If it is supported, are you saying using it to do jvc autocal gamma & color calibrations off screen is the preferred way to run autocal rather than Spyder5Pro facing lens?
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Ok, got it on the Brightness setting.
I didn't think the xRite i1Display Pro is supported by autocal - only the i1D2...isn't that right?
If it is supported, are you saying using it to do jvc autocal gamma & color calibrations off screen is the preferred way to run autocal rather than Spyder5Pro facing lens?
Just tried running autocal with my i1DPro connected and it says can't find meter. So I'm presuming then it's not supported, hence my use of the Spyder5Pro off lens for gamma+color and then fine tuning with HCFR+i1DPro off screen.
Given that approach, should I or shouldn't I be using screen type adjust in the projector's menu?
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You were calling it an i1dpro which I misread for an i1pro :)
It is an i1display pro or i1d3 for short, not i1dpro...
Nothing to do with the i1pro, 1pro2 or EFI2000 which *are* supported by the autocal.
You only need to use the screen offset if you use the spyder to do a color autocal facing the lens. If you only use it to do a gamma autocal, you don't need the screen offset.
You might also want to try various screen offsets and see if one gives you better results.
Best is to get an i1pro/i1pro2.
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You were calling it an i1dpro which I misread for an i1pro :)
It is an i1display pro or i1d3 for short, not i1dpro...
Nothing to do with the i1pro, 1pro2 or EFI2000 which *are* supported by the autocal.
You only need to use the screen offset if you use the spyder to do a color autocal facing the lens. If you only use it to do a gamma autocal, you don't need the screen offset.
You might also want to try various screen offsets and see if one gives you better results.
Best is to get an i1pro/i1pro2.
Would an i1pro2 be considered more accurate than my i1D3?
So if I understand correctly, an i1pro2 would allow me to use autocal gamma+color with accuracy to a point that thereafter I shouldn't really need to adjust much with HCFR after the autocal?
Just trying to also eliminate some steps in my current calibration workflow as I usually end up spending quite a bit of time fiddling with the greyscale on all the modes with patterns up and HCFR after autocal is done using my Spyder5Pro.
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No an i1pro2 isn’t necessarily more accurate than an i1d3, but it is supported by the Autocal.
You can’t use it it for gamma, only for color.
You use the Spyder for gamma.
But yes having both means that you don’t have to use another software.
Please look at the post “which meter to use”
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No an i1pro2 isn’t necessarily more accurate than an i1d3, but it is supported by the Autocal.
You can’t use it it for gamma, only for color.
You use the Spyder for gamma.
But yes having both means that you don’t have to use another software.
Please look at the post “which meter to use”
Ok, so if I stick with my current approach of using Spyder5Pro (gamma only) and then using HCFR+i1displaypro to fine tune the greyscale, do I or do I not need to input my screen type?
Also, I understand as not doing color with Spyder5Pro and autocal, I should just leave the CMS alone?
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Never touch the CMS unless you know what you’re doing and are not targetting the gamut at 100%.
I don’t think you need to use the screen offset if you don’t do a color calibration with the spyder, but that’s not the way I use the software. It should be pretty obvious which is better (screen offset or no screen offset).
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So, I did a proper autocal gamma + color with iris @ 0 and then color only for -5, -10 with my Spyder5Pro.
I then started to fine tune greyscale with HCFR+i1D3 off screen. I turned off screen adjustment.
Gamma @ 2.4 with Picture Tone +3. Brightness -3; contrast +1
HCFR showed dE below 1 all the way to 60 IRE where it then climbs to over 8dE at 100 IRE due to blue being too low.
It still took me a green gain adjustment of -5 and a blue offset adjustment of +5 to get 70-100IRE down to below 4dE.
This is all in my custom SDR709 mode.
Does that sounds right?
I'm outputting from madvr a power gamma of 2.4.
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So, I did a proper autocal gamma + color with iris @ 0 and then color only for -5, -10 with my Spyder5Pro.
I then started to fine tune greyscale with HCFR+i1D3 off screen. I turned off screen adjustment.
Gamma @ 2.4 with Picture Tone +3. Brightness -3; contrast +1
HCFR showed dE below 1 all the way to 60 IRE where it then climbs to over 8dE at 100 IRE due to blue being too low.
It still took me a green gain adjustment of -5 and a blue offset adjustment of +5 to get 70-100IRE down to below 4dE.
This is all in my custom SDR709 mode.
Does that sounds right?
I'm outputting from madvr a power gamma of 2.4.
If you did use the Spyder for color, you need to select the correct screen offset.
Please post, as requested, logs of the Autocal so we can see what the autocal thinks it's done, a verif with Calman before any changes so we can see the difference, and then a verification with Calman after your adjustments.
I suggest you use a target of 2.2 before your final adjustments so it's easier to see if the gamma autocal is correct or not.
Whether you use madVR or not is irrelevant. The autocal should deliver with 5dE of your target after fine-tuning the RGB balance. You can always get things closer if you use the 12-band gamma controls in the Autocal (using HCFR and the i1d3), but that takes more time. I use a madVR 3D LUT to do this automatically in 10mn (a Lightning LUT in Calman, which works fine if the Autocal gets things close enough).
Then if you tell madVR which target (gamut, gamma) you have actually reached on the PJ, the results should be accurate.
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If you did use the Spyder for color, you need to select the correct screen offset.
Please post, as requested, logs of the Autocal so we can see what the autocal thinks it's done, a verif with Calman before any changes so we can see the difference, and then a verification with Calman after your adjustments.
I suggest you use a target of 2.2 before your final adjustments so it's easier to see if the gamma autocal is correct or not.
Whether you use madVR or not is irrelevant. The autocal should deliver with 5dE of your target after fine-tuning the RGB balance. You can always get things closer if you use the 12-band gamma controls in the Autocal (using HCFR and the i1d3), but that takes more time. I use a madVR 3D LUT to do this automatically in 10mn (a Lightning LUT in Calman, which works fine if the Autocal gets things close enough).
Then if you tell madVR which target (gamut, gamma) you have actually reached on the PJ, the results should be ac
When you say log of the autocal, do you mean the cbd files it generates upon completion?
Also, I don't own Calman. Only HCFR and also DisplayCAL (which I use for 3DLUT later on - is this CALman?)
Anyways, also worth noting that in Natural mode, using the same 6500 setting and offset/gain adjustments I made for my custom SDR709 mode, I get a pretty good tracking on greyscale through out with dE under 1 actually.
So what could be causing the difference between Natural and custom SDR709 modes if all settings are basically the same between them?
Finally, on another note: I get 15.5ftL at iris -10 and it jumps to 20.5ftL at iris -9 is that normal?
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No, I mean screenshots of the logs that the autocal provides after calibration (see the basic guide, I post many of them). You can select gamut, gamma and RGB balance. That's what we need to see (ideally with a target of 2.2) to see if the results are good (according to the Spyder).
Sorry I thought you had Calman. HCFR for post-cal measurements and DisplayCAL for 3D LUT generation are fine.
Jumping from 15.5 to 20.5 looks like a lot for just one click, but I guess it's possible. There are some steps that are much bigger than others in the range. Make sure that both are calibrated to D65 though, because if you need large adjustments, that might be the reason (one is calibrated, the other isn't).
If you want to compare natural and custom, you have to autocal them both, unless they both use exactly the same settings (gamut, gamma, color temp, filter, iris, filter, lamp mode). Any of these can cause differences.
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If I run an autocal with BT2020 (filter on), does it mean using a mode with the DCI-P3 filter would also be autocal'd since it is also a filter?
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If I run an autocal with BT2020 (filter on), does it mean using a mode with the DCI-P3 filter would also be autocal'd since it is also a filter?
For gamma, yes, but not for color as it's not the same gamut.
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Just to confirm, should I be setting as follows?
GPU - RGB/Full
madvr - 16-235
JVC proj - 16-235
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Just to confirm, should I be setting as follows?
GPU - RGB/Full
madvr - 16-235
JVC proj - 16-235
It depends on the GPU, the driver, the OS, the bit depth, but theoretically, that's one of the options, the other being FULL/FULLL/FULL (when it works). This is why I don't answer madVR questions here. It would immediately derail the thread, there is never a simple answer to a madVR question :)
I see that some of your questions are not answered in the madvr thread you posted in. This is because that thread is reserved to only tonemapping testing feedback. It's not a support thread for madVR. Here is how it works:
This thread: JVC autocal and calibration. No madVR generic support question, like the one you just asked.
The madVR thread where you posted in and didn't get any answer: only feedback for madshi re the current test build and the specific features he is asking to test, or suggestions on how to improve it.
Anything else madVR related, please ask in a madVR support thread, either on Doom9 or elsewhere, including in the forum where you posted (there is a madVR support thread there).
Thanks :)
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This is highly unusual.
First, the brightness control should allow you to get the blackest black. On these units, it needs to be set to -2 or -3 most of the time, but there is unit to unit variation.
If you can get a blacker level with hide, something is wrong. Are you sure that your levels are set correctly? Try to force HDMI to standard or enhanced, or set it to AUTO and see if it makes a difference.
If the PJ is set to the correct levels for the source with the correct brightness setting, what you describe shouldn't happen.
Second, the JVC Autocal should be able to correct almost any gamma droop, but gamma doesn't (or shouldn't) affect contrast, as gamma only adjusts between black and white. It doesn't touch black or white, so shouldn't really have much of an impact on contrast.
Brightness will control black and contrast white.
If you use offsets wrongly (for example, by adding instead of substracting values), you can raise your black levels.
If you set gains wrongly you can also lower your contrast.
But a gamma autocal, while it will restore picture depth especially in the high end, because that's where the droop happens (levels at 70-95 are too high, gamma is too low, and the picture lacks depth), it should not change on/off contrast.
So my advice is:
1) Switch the DI off. It's irrelevant for now.
2) Check your levels with a black levels pattern. 16 and below should be black (not grey). 17 just above black, unless that raise the black levels at 16, in which case crush it. My recommendation is to set the source to standard (GPU full and madVR 16-235 if you use madVR) and the PJ to standard, but ideally test with a non HTPC source because levels can be wrong on a HTPC depending on the OS and GPU driver, so let's rule this out for now.
3) Adjust brightness so that using hide doesn't make any difference. For most, with the correct levels, it has to be set to -2 or -3.
4) You should get a native on off at the same level as what you measure with "hide", 47,000:1 native with the iris on -7 sounds a bit high but if you are at long throw, much closer to what it should be than 4000:1, which cannot be correct.
5) Once you get a basic working baseline, run a gamma autocal to get rid of the gamma droop. You should get a picture with more depth, but it shouldn't improve your on/off significantly.
Please let us know once you've checked your levels and set brightness correctly if you still have this issue.
You might have to use a difference source, reset the PJ settings to factory default or take the Radiance out until you get a proper baseline, then once you've identified the culprit, work out the reason.
There is no point in running an autocal if you have 4,000:1 native contrast with your current settings. That won't change with an autocal, so there is an incorrect setting somewhere.
Just checked my new RS2000 for this issue and I have it as well. Correct levels are set, lowering the brightness setting doesn't fix it. Here are the contrast numbers I just measured at the lens with my Minolta CL200. To be sure it wasn't my calibration raising the level of black, I put the projector back to it's default out of the box settings. I measured these contrast numbers in high lamp mode, lens at minimum zoom and the iris closed at -15.
Normal video test patterns - 67,000:1 calibrated contrast.
Using the Hide button for black level reading: 89,750:1 calibrated contrast
Uncalibrated OOTB with Hide Button: 100,500:1 contrast
It seems like I'm getting a raised black floor for some reason. I wonder if this is firmware related? Also, for context, my unit was manufactured in June this year.
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Is restoring the init file to the projector to go back to factory defaults as simple as just importing the init file using JVC autocal?
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I get 74 nits in low lamp with the filter (BT2020) & 91 nits without the filter (HDR). My bulb has 100 hrs on it.
I'd like to continue running in low lamp.
Is BT2020 considered worth it for the drop in brightness in this setup?
Also, linked to this question, I too wanted to create a DCI-P3 mode but I only get 72 nits with the DCI filter. Should I continue pursuing creating this mode and the DCI-P3 3DLUT along with it over just running it without filter?
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About entering a screen type code, I did a full autocal and then put up a 100% pattern and lost brightness when employing the screen adjustment that matched my screen type, so I kept it off.
This was after doing a color calibration with a Spyder5Pro.
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New NX firmware 3.10 is out.
https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000/dl.html (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000/dl.html)
Also, Autocal 12 with SpyderX support.
https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000_calibrationsoft.html (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000_calibrationsoft.html)
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Now how this new version of Autoval will works with Frame Adapt HDR calibration? Does eny one check it?
Thank you
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Now how this new version of Autoval will works with Frame Adapt HDR calibration? Does eny one check it?
Thank you
Well it says right in the manual:
"Calibration does not work when Picture Mode has been set to Frame Adapt HDR. Set to another Picture Mode."
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Well it says right in the manual:
"Calibration does not work when Picture Mode has been set to Frame Adapt HDR. Set to another Picture Mode."
WTF?!?!
Am I reading that correctly? Can't use the calibrations when using Frame Adapt DTM? That can't be right. Or does that mean you need to calibrate first and then switch to Frame Adapt?
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WTF?!?!
Am I reading that correctly? Can't use the calibrations when using Frame Adapt DTM? That can't be right. Or does that mean you need to calibrate first and then switch to Frame Adapt?
I believe you can't RUN calibration when in Frame Adapt DTM, but I haven't checked so I don't know.
Waiting for my SpyderX.
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Correct, it's clear you cannot run autocal with the projector in Frame Adapt HDR mode.
But someone will have to test to see what happens to the calibration in general that was performed in another mode, when measured with the projector in Frame Adapt HDR mode to see that everything carries over.
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I'll test the Spyder X and 1IPro2 with the new software later tonight if I can get a few minutes.
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What GAMA than Frame Adapt DTM will use? If i will calibrate gama 2.2 will this have some efect on Frame Adapt DTM? Realy dont know...
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Is there no way to have two different Rec2020 color profiles to use the color filter? I have my Rec2020 setup for MadVR and I was going to try the new DTM settings which I assume uses the default Rec2020 with filter when you set it to wide color space , but there doesn't seem to be a way to make a custom color profile that has the filter engaged to keep separate for other profiles?
EDIT: Solved, Had to make a custom color profile in Autocal :)
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Is there no way to have two different Rec2020 color profiles to use the color filter? I have my Rec2020 setup for MadVR and I was going to try the new DTM settings which I assume uses the default Rec2020 with filter when you set it to wide color space , but there doesn't seem to be a way to make a custom color profile that has the filter engaged to keep separate for other profiles?
EDIT: Solved, Had to make a custom color profile in Autocal :)
Yes, and if you make a custom color profile for madVR, I would highly recommed to use DCI-P3 rather than BT2020, that doesn't give you anything with our models (unless yours does reach beyond DCI-P3, which few do).
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When you make a custom color profile via autocal, does it automatically become calibrated as long as it matches the same modes that have already been calibrated?
What I mean is that I notice when you autocal rec709 for instance, autocal adjusts the primary color points to line up with the reference gamut pretty well.
Does that mean if I make another custom color profile for rec709 will it retroactively get the calibrated gamut points that the projector already has from the earlier autocal?
Does the new rec709 based custom color profile acquire the calibrated gamut primaries, or does it start out with stock color points and needs to be calibrated after it's created?
I hope that question makes sense.
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Yes, and if you make a custom color profile for madVR, I would highly recommed to use DCI-P3 rather than BT2020, that doesn't give you anything with our models (unless yours does reach beyond DCI-P3, which few do).
So I have 72 nits available for DCI-P3 filter. Would you still recommend I create a 3DLUT for DCI-P3 or just do one for BT.709?
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So I have 72 nits available for DCI-P3 filter. Would you still recommend I create a 3DLUT for DCI-P3 or just do one for BT.709?
It depends if you're in low lamp or high lamp. If you're in high lamp, you don't lose much with the filter (around 10%) so I would definitely use it, especially as you use madVR which gets the best out of every nit.
If this is in low lamp, you might find that no filter gives you a bit more brightness, which might translate into more saturation. But you still want to target DCI-P3, even if without a 3D LUT, rather than Rec-709. Unless a DCI-P3 LUt gives you too much posterization and you can't get results good enough after the autocal without a 3D LUT, there is no reason to target rec-709, as you can still get 90% of P3 without the filter. That's more than rec-709, so why waste that portion of the wider gamut just because you prefer not to use the filter?
With the progress in dynamic tonmemapping, I'd use the filter, get the wider gamut and the better contrast, but that's subjective. Try both and decide which one you prefer.
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It depends if you're in low lamp or high lamp. If you're in high lamp, you don't lose much with the filter (around 10%) so I would definitely use it, especially as you use madVR which gets the best out of every nit.
If this is in low lamp, you might find that no filter gives you a bit more brightness, which might translate into more saturation. But you still want to target DCI-P3, even if without a 3D LUT, rather than Rec-709. Unless a DCI-P3 LUt gives you too much posterization and you can't get results good enough after the autocal without a 3D LUT, there is no reason to target rec-709, as you can still get 90% of P3 without the filter. That's more than rec-709, so why waste that portion of the wider gamut just because you prefer not to use the filter?
With the progress in dynamic tonmemapping, I'd use the filter, get the wider gamut and the better contrast, but that's subjective. Try both and decide which one you prefer.
This is in low lamp that I get 72 nits with DCI-P3. I'd prefer to not run in high lamp due mainly to fan noise but also lamp wear. This is because in low lamp I can get 91 nits with no filter (HDR color profile).
Also worth mentioning, I get 74 nits with BT2020.
So, given that, are you saying I should still use BT2020 color mode (74 nits) with a 3DLUT targeting DCI-P3 rather than Rec-709?
Sorry, little confused in how your recommendation translates into specifically what I need to do in the JVC menu + DisplayCAL 3DLUT creation menu.
You also say even without a 3DLUT I should target a DCI-P3 - where in the menus do I specifically accomplish that? Is that on the madvr calibration screen where it says "my display is calibrated to..."?
Also, as an aside, I ran a whole 65x65 3DLUT in DisplayCAL overnight, and once completed I couldn't actually find the .3dlut file it should have created.
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There is no point in using a BT2020 baseline if you target DCI-P3 with madVR. Use the DCI-P3 profile, and run a 3D LUT targeting DCI-P3 from that baseline. A BT2020 profile will only cause posterization in your case.
To target DCI-P3, simply select any user mode and select the DCI-P3 color profile. It will use the filter.
Or if you use the new DTM mode, select the mode with the filter. I haven't installed/tested this yet, I was abroad all week.
Please ask your questions about DisplayCAL in a DisplayCAL forum, this is the Autocal thread :)
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I've done some tests with Autocal V12 and the Spyder X (Pro, there is no benefit buying the Elite unless you want to use the Datacolor software, which wouldn't make sense with these projectors). I followed the JVC instructions and positioned it facing the screen, about 30-40cm away (12-15"), angled up so that it would read the centre of the screen without reading its shadow. Here are my observations:
1) The Spyder X is about twice as fast as the Spyder 5, as expected. I went from around 10mn for a 33-point gamma+color autocal to less than 5 min.
2) I had no problems reading the lowest gamma steps, even in SDR with the iris set to -12 (65nits). I would advise anyone have issues to follow the usual advice, which is to do gamma with the iris fully open, then color at the relevant iris settings. If you can't read the lowest steps (i.e. values at zero for some colors during measurements), then zoom the picture down for gamma calibration. In my case, the results were just as good as with the Spyder 5 Pro / V11, but it took half the time for all calibrations. I checked 6 steps near black and the results were identical to the Spyder 5's.
3) The bad news is that my specific unit was not usable for color. Not only would it cause a loss of brightness (from 115 nits to 105nits) as it was overcorrecting the color temp unnecessarily, but the greyscale / RGB balance was completely wrong when checked with my Discus trained to my i1pro2, especially in the upper half, up to 8dEs at 100% white. The issue was the same with rec-709 (no filter) and DCI-P3 (filter). Of course the Spyder X thinks it has nailed it. A color only pass with the i1pro2 recovered all the brightness and nailed the RGB balance. The Gamma curve was near perfect, so the benefit of the Spyder gamma autocal was intact. I just won't use it for color.
4) I am suspicious that it might not be the Spyder's fault but a bug in the autocal, as I don't see why the unit would be accurate at lower IREs and would progressively become less accurate. I have seen other reports with a similar pattern, so hopefully it's the software and not the meter.
5) I'll confirm this when the Spyder X is supported by Calman. I was told today that it wouldn't take long, and I'd rather wait than waste time with Lightspace.
Overall, I recommend the Spyder X (Pro, no need for the Elite) if you want a faster meter to do your gamma calibrations. I did four of them in 20 minutes instead of 40 minutes, that's a significant difference. As I only use the Spyder for gamma, I'm very happy with the speed improvement and the fact that it can be used facing the screen, so it's a keeper.
However, if you were hoping for more accuracy and to be able to use it for color, it's either still a lottery (8dE at 100% white, far worse than without using it) or there is a bug in the software.
The good news is that if you use the Spyder X for gamma and the i1pro2 for color, you get a near perfect calibration that barely needs a 3D LUT.
I quickly tried the DTM, it's a clear improvement compared to the previous static tonemapping, but it still needs some adjustments per title. It's also far from being as good as madVR, especially with the significant improvements brought by the most recent test builds, so I won't spend much time testing this at the moment.
Unfortunately, the yelllowing and blooming of the highlights in HDR (iris fully open) was still there, even without madVR, using the JVC DTM, and the double chroma upscaling issue is still present.
So I kept my usual settings: -12, low lamp DI on for SDR (65nits), and iris open, low lamp, DI off for HDR (115nits).
Both provide a stunning picture. Hopefully at some point JVC will resolve the yellowing and blooming, in the meantime the black level and contrast in low lamp is still excellent, even with the DI disabled. I watched the UHD bluray of Avengers Endgame to test my calibration and the picture was spectacular.
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Completely agree. Times were impressive. I really thought that there was something wrong it went so fast compared to the Spyder5.
After gamma and a color calibration with the i1Pro2 (EFI2k) I am more than very happy with the results. As of now, I am forgoing the 3DLUTs as I am quite pleased with this incredible easy and fast Autocal system. Great job JVC.
As far as the DTM, yes, MadVR is still king. But since you can't use it (MadVR) for Netflix or Amazon Prime or any other streaming it will do just fine for now. Heck I would say it is about 80-90% of the way there for streaming stuff. Now I just have to decide if I want to use my Shield for streaming or my HTPC. But that's a whole different thread.
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Hi Manny,
thanks for your post, very good even though not encouraging because of bad results with SpyderX calibrating the color. Hope it is a software issue.
However I would like to understand one thing that both the manual and people that are using the JVC Autocal always mention:
- even if another Picture Mode has been selected, the calibration result for Gamma is reflected if the setting values of Lamp Power and Filter are the same. (having selected Option: individual)
- even if another Picture Mode has been selected, the calibration result for Color is reflected when the settings of Aperture, Lamp Power and Filter are the same
Is that true also when using a different color space and gamma curve? For example, if I calibrate a color profile based on BT.709 gamut + 2.2 gamma, did I get also profiles using BT.2020 gamut + HDR gamma correctly calibrated as long as aperture, lamp power and filter are exactly the same? The manual does not state it clearly.
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Yes, the above is correct. If you don’t change filter, lamp mode or iris setting, the calibration remains valid even if you change the gamut, gamma or color temp (provided both gamma and color autocal were done with these lamp, iris and filter settings.)
If you select “apply to all” for gamma, then a single gamma calibration applies to all settings, irrespective of iris, lamp or filter.
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Posting my findings and questions here for the new firmware v3.1. These observations are from a friend's JVC N7 that I previously calibrated on previous firmware with Spyder 5 for gamma and iPro2 for color. I have not used the new autocal yet. Its a HTPC madVR on 126" 16:9 setup.
1) Appears there is no method of selecting a color profile in the new Frame Adapt DTM picture mode. In other words, the auto color calibration may not have an effect on Frame Adapt DTM picture mode. My same color temperature (RGB gain/ offset) custom setting was off compared to my old High Lamp HDR auto cal picture mode at Iris 0 setting, so I don't believe it carries over any color calibration data. Using same Iris 0 setting for the new Picture mode, so it should be carrying over if its supported? In the instructions for the new calibration software, it states 'Calibration does not work when Picture Mode has been set to Frame Adapt HDR. Set to another Picture Mode.' Manni, can you confirm?
2) Does gamma calibration carry over to the new Frame Adapt Picture mode?
3) Experienced an issue with black crush on the new firmware with the new Frame Adapt Picture mode. I had to set Brightness to 16 to resolve all detail to code 64, confirmed with Masciola's Black Clipping patterns. This is not a problem on the SDR Auto Calibration picture mode after firmware upgrade, only the new Frame Adapt Picture mode. I didn't check my old HDR Auto Cal mode after firmware upgrade for black crush, will reply later.
4) May have discovered a bug. Brightness was auto set to -50 on my SDR Auto Cal Picture mode after the update and after playing around with the Color Temperature in the Frame Adapt HDR Picture mode. I had to set back to 0 to resolve all detail down to 16.
5) HDR Level set to High clipped too many details in the high contrast areas, and saturation was off. Clipping of details in highlight areas was seen in 2001 rotating ships in space. Passengers movie is a good saturation test because the skin tones are already oversaturated. Also BR2049 Vegas scene appears overly yellow compared to other picture modes. It would be great for have others to validate these scenes on their setup. Settled on HDR Level = Medium, Iris = 0, High Lamp, Auto 2 Aperture.
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Re the questions above:
1) You can't run an autocal of the Frame Adapt DTM picture mode, but if you calibrate any mode using the same gamut (not sure if they use DCI-P3 or BT2020, but it might be DCI-P3 which would explain why your previous calibration didn't translate as you most likely used BT2020) and iris, lamp and filter mode. I would try to calibrate a user mode with DCI-P3, iris open, filter and lamp set as in the DTM color profile, and it should automatically calibrate DTM.
2) Gamma calibration should carry if you use the same filter and lamp mode.
3 and 4 sound like you have the wrong levels set in your source or in the PJ. There is no way you'd need that much adjustment on brightness, so I would correct this first.
5) Switch the DI off in HDR (especially with the iris fully open) if you want to keep highlights or if you want to avoid yellowing issues, unless you have an rs3000. The DI blooms highlights and this is visible in any title where you have bright objects against a dark background, so there are many scenes in 2001 where this is visible. If you still have the issue with the DI off, then try to see if selecting low in the DTM option helps. There is no blooming of highlights here (RS2000) with the DI switched off.
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Re the questions above:
1) You can't run an autocal of the Frame Adapt DTM picture mode, but if you calibrate any mode using the same gamut (not sure if they use DCI-P3 or BT2020, but it might be DCI-P3 which would explain why your previous calibration didn't translate as you most likely used BT2020) and iris, lamp and filter mode. I would try to calibrate a user mode with DCI-P3, iris open, filter and lamp set as in the DTM color profile, and it should automatically calibrate DTM.
Wait, you just told me that gamut is not relevant. ;)
I would also say I’m pretty sure that DTM is using BT.2020 when filter is set to wide, not DCI. Because DCI requires that you have a source able to generate a DCI signal, not available on common sources like BD players or TV Boxes.
When filter is set to normal and in case of N5/RS1000 I assume it uses HDR instead.
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Wait, you just told me that gamut is not relevant. ;)
I would also say I’m pretty sure that DTM is using BT.2020 when filter is set to wide, not DCI. Because DCI requires that you have a source able to generate a DCI signal, not available on common sources like BD players or TV Boxes.
When filter is set to normal and in case of N5/RS1000 I assume it uses HDR instead.
Gamut is not relevant for gamma, it is relevant for color.
You need BT2020 when the source sends HDR and you display HDR, because no consumer source will send P3.
But if you tonemap HDR content sent by the source to SDR with a VP (or, in this case, the PJ), you can tonemap to any gamut you want: BT2020, P3 or rec-709. This is what madVR does, what the Radiance Pro does, and possibly what the DTM does. I haven't tested it, but it's not impossible that the DTM tonemaps the the native gamut of the PJ, which is P3, not BT2020.
You were talking about an N7. If an N5, it will not use the filter, but it could still tonemap to anything it wants, rec-709, P3 or BT2020. P3 would still make a lot more sense, because even without the filter these PJs cover more than rec-709.
HDR (whether HDR10 or HDR) means PQ gamma. This doesn't apply to DTM, which tonemaps to SDR, most probably to 2.2 or 2.4.
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Re the questions above:
1) You can't run an autocal of the Frame Adapt DTM picture mode, but if you calibrate any mode using the same gamut (not sure if they use DCI-P3 or BT2020, but it might be DCI-P3 which would explain why your previous calibration didn't translate as you most likely used BT2020) and iris, lamp and filter mode. I would try to calibrate a user mode with DCI-P3, iris open, filter and lamp set as in the DTM color profile, and it should automatically calibrate DTM.
It would be nice to get official confirmation that calibration settings carry over. The documentation is not 100% clear: 'Calibration does not work in Frame Adapt HDR mode. Set to another Picture Mode and calibrate using the same Aperture, Lamp Power and Filter settings.' I assume you are reading this as it does carry over but user can't select the new picture mode in the software, but I still want explicit confirmation. It appears we are doing black box guesswork here based on one line in the documentation, no offense. I used 2020 on the original calibration. Why would selecting a different color space affect color calibration for the same iris open, filter on, high lamp? Won't it overwrite the old calibration for high lamp, open iris, filter on? 2020 contains P3, why would this change anything? Are you thinking P3 calibration more accurately reflects the projector's capabilities(is P3 the native gamut?) without relying on transformation math, so it may be a better fit for this new mode? I'm not following your logic here. I don't know how to pass the P3 inside the 2020 container in madVR MPC-BE, so if you have any links handy that would help. I'm not doing any tone mapping in MadVR, HDR is passed through.
3 and 4 sound like you have the wrong levels set in your source or in the PJ. There is no way you'd need that much adjustment on brightness, so I would correct this first.
It doesn't make sense that the new mode requires a brightness change to +16 and the old HDR mode with same iris open, filter on, high lamp would be set to zero. I will confirm that the old mode doesn't clip with brightness=0. If the input is the same, how can the output be different?
Regarding SDR calibration having brightness set to -50, that was definitely not a manual change. It was originally set to 0 before the update and before my color temp adjustment. There's probably a bug here.
5) Switch the DI off in HDR (especially with the iris fully open) if you want to keep highlights or if you want to avoid yellowing issues, unless you have an rs3000. The DI blooms highlights and this is visible in any title where you have bright objects against a dark background, so there are many scenes in 2001 where this is visible. If you still have the issue with the DI off, then try to see if selecting low in the DTM option helps. There is no blooming of highlights here (RS2000) with the DI switched off.
Will switch off the DI and test, but don't remember seeing this in the old HDR mode with Auto 2, open iris, at least not to the same effect. The clipping in highlights is very noticeable when HDR Level = High. I will do a comparison with old HDR autocal Auto 2 vs Frame Adapt HDR Auto 2 vs Frame Adapt HDR DI Off
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What the documentation says makes sense, so we're not guessing, we're assuming that until proven wrong the documentation is correct. I don't see any reason why the DTM profile would be isolated from the rest of the PJ, that wouldn't make any sense at all.
You used BT2020 in the original calibration because the PJ was tonemapping using a static PQ curve.
As explained in my former post, it's very possible that the DTM tonemaps to P3.
To get the correct saturations, you need to select the factory color profile that you want to calibrate. If BT2020 was selected in your previous calibration, it might not translate to the DTM.
I'm only suggesting you try this to see if it makes a difference. There has always been a degree of reverse engineering in working out how the Autocal works. I don't have the time at the moment to do detailed tests for the DTM because I use madVR to watch all my content. So you can either try it and see if it makes a difference, or wait until someone else's does.
Of course the user can select a different pictude mode in the software. You simply double click on it and select the one you want. Ideally select one with the same gamut (so P3 or BT2020, we're not sure yet), same lamp, same filter and same iris setting. That should do it.
I don't know what JVC is tonemapping to, but it would certainly make more sense to tonemap to P3 than to BT2020, given the the PJ can't reach wider than P3.
In any case that's none of the user's business. Irrespective of the source, if you want to use the JVC DTM, you have to send HDR in a BT2020 container using PQ from the source, otherwise the PJ will not be able to tonemap it properly.
Consumer content (UHD Bluray, HDR streaming) is always mastered to BT2020 as a container. Some VPs (and possibly this PJ with DTM) can discard the container and tonemap to P3. It's only relevant in case selecting P3 instead of BT2020 in the user mode that you autocal allows you to get better results with DTM. It might or it might not. The iris, filter and lamp mode is certainly more relevant.
Please ask any madVR related question in a madVR support thread. I would suggest you try to get this to work with a standard source, before making sure that you are using the correct settings in madVR, which is off topic here.
Regarding levels, I was suggesting this because I don't experience this at all. I didn't have to change my brightness or contrast settings, either in SDR or HDR. I'm using -2 for both, and that's the correct setting here to get darkest black floor and optimal on/off native contrast. My sources are set to send 16-235, and the PJ is set to HDMI standard. Again, try with a standard source first. There are lots of issues with GPU drivers, OS changes that cause wrong levels depending on the GPU driver, video decoder, renderer, bit depth, etc. This thread isn't a HTPC / madVR debug thread.
Re clipping of the highlights, it varies a bit depending on the source and mostly the manual iris setting, but it's there as long as the DI is switched on if the manual iris is fully open (then it diminishes as you close the iris). Not everyone notices them, but they are there (and have been on previous models as well, except on the rs3000 apparently). So switch the DI off before trying to see if the highlights are crushed, because it's unlikely it's an autocal or a DTM issue, and it's most likely simply the "normal" behaviour of the DI.
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Gamut is not relevant for gamma, it is relevant for color.
You need BT2020 when the source sends HDR and you display HDR, because no consumer source will send P3.
But if you tonemap HDR content sent by the source to SDR with a VP (or, in this case, the PJ), you can tonemap to any gamut you want: BT2020, P3 or rec-709. This is what madVR does, what the Radiance Pro does, and possibly what the DTM does. I haven't tested it, but it's not impossible that the DTM tonemaps the the native gamut of the PJ, which is P3, not BT2020.
You were talking about an N7. If an N5, it will not use the filter, but it could still tonemap to anything it wants, rec-709, P3 or BT2020. P3 would still make a lot more sense, because even without the filter these PJs cover more than rec-709.
HDR (whether HDR10 or HDR) means PQ gamma. This doesn't apply to DTM, which tonemaps to SDR, most probably to 2.2 or 2.4.
You said above:
"If you don’t change filter, lamp mode or iris setting, the calibration remains valid even if you change the gamut, gamma or color temp"
If we state that filter, lamp mode and iris are the only discriminators, then we must accept that the gamut can't be relevant. If the gamut was important, when we change color profile with a custom one to correct the inaccuracy of the Spyder 5, then the correction would not work as we would have a new uncalibrated mode.
However, regarding the DTM, I think you are interpreting the color space used as the target after the tone mapping, while I think from a calibration perspective we should consider more the input color space on which the tone mapping works. It is like you are trying to identify an "intermediate" step of the process: input signal -> tone mapping -> internal model. We don't know how exactly is working and we don't need to know it, but for sure we need to feed it with a BT.2020 signal, this is what I meant in my post when I said "I’m pretty sure that DTM is using BT.2020 when filter is set to wide, not DCI"
However, I still believe that the gamut that is used is not important. As Amon reported the manual says:
'Calibration does not work in Frame Adapt HDR mode. Set to another Picture Mode and calibrate using the same Aperture, Lamp Power and Filter settings.'
No mention of color profile...
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You said above:
"If you don’t change filter, lamp mode or iris setting, the calibration remains valid even if you change the gamut, gamma or color temp"
If we state that filter, lamp mode and iris are the only discriminators, then we must accept that the gamut can't be relevant. If the gamut was important, when we change color profile with a custom one to correct the inaccuracy of the Spyder 5, then the correction would not work as we would have a new uncalibrated mode.
However, regarding the DTM, I think you are interpreting the color space used as the target after the tone mapping, while I think from a calibration perspective we should consider more the input color space on which the tone mapping works. It is like you are trying to identify an "intermediate" step of the process: input signal -> tone mapping -> internal model. We don't know how exactly is working and we don't need to know it, but for sure we need to feed it with a BT.2020 signal, this is what I meant in my post when I said "I’m pretty sure that DTM is using BT.2020 when filter is set to wide, not DCI"
However, I still believe that the gamut that is used is not important. As Amon reported the manual says:
'Calibration does not work in Frame Adapt HDR mode. Set to another Picture Mode and calibrate using the same Aperture, Lamp Power and Filter settings.'
No mention of color profile...
The input color space is irrelevant for calibration, it's only relevant for the DTM algo, and it should definitely be BT2020 for consumer HDR content. The only gamut that matters when tonemapping re calibration is the output gamut, i.e. the DTM algo target.
Anyway, I really have no time to argue about theory. I made a suggestion to help solving a problem, people are free to try it or dismiss it. :)
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How many hours should I wait to do an AutoCal? 10hrs, 20hrs.....
I know the Lamp/PJ doesn't stabilize until ~100hrs and that is the time to wait until you get a professional calibration.
In my case, the PJ is being replaced (blue vertical bars -- yes its still a thing) so will have a brand new PJ.
I saw substantial improvement when I did Autocal in my current NX7 so I am wondering is there a reason to wait before doing an AutoCal with a new PJ, assuming I understand that I will need to do it multiple times before 100hrs.
I am thinking about 10-20 hrs, watch a few movies to make sure that I a good unit (HW infant mortality)
Thoughts?
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The 100 hours is to make sure in theory 1) that the bulb stabilizes and 2) that the bulb or PJ isn't a dud. That makes sense if you're hiring a calibrator.
In practice, the bulb keeps changing in the first 300 hours, and then the PJ keeps changing (gamma droop) over the life of the PJ.
So if you're doing it yourself, I would do it right away, maybe wait 10 hours to make sure that the lamp or PJ isn't a dud, but after that it's every 100-500 hours anyway depending on your level of OCD.
I usually check my calibration every 200 hours or so, and only recalibrate if necessary.
These PJs drift anyway, so unless you warm up the PJ/Lamp for at least 45 minutes before calibration and critical watching and your room is temperature controlled (i.e. the room temp doesn't go up as the PJ warms the room), your calibration won't be accurate over a whole film.
Both gamut and RGB balance change significantly as the PJ/room warms up. If it stops warming up at some point, then you can have a repeatable calibration, otherwise I wouldn't be too OCD about this...
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Thanks Manni,
That is what I will do.
BTW if I understand your previous DTM posts correctly its probably worth doing three Picture modes while I have all the equipment out. With User 3 being done in case the DTM algo is actually tone mapping to P3
User1 - SDR709 - Color Profile 709, 6500K, 2.4, low lamp, iris -6 (~60 nits)
User2 - HDR2020 - Color Profile BT2020, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0
User3 - HDR-P3 - Color Profile DCI, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0
Am I understanding your post correctly?
Thanks again
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So I read a bunch of people say their black level changed with the new firmware and instead of running -2 or -3 on the brightness they are back to 0. I just checked mine and it looks like I am in the same boat. If I ran autocal last week on gamma with brightness set to -2 do I need to re run autocal at brightness 0. I thought I had seen that answered before but couldn't find the post :O Also just a heads up for people that my brightness did change with the firmware update as some other users had reported (in SDR and HDR modes).
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I was the first to highlight this on AVS forum :)
Happy you reported the same perception.
Theoretically calibration should be agnostic of level of brightness, but I leave the floor to Manni.
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Thanks Manni,
That is what I will do.
BTW if I understand your previous DTM posts correctly its probably worth doing three Picture modes while I have all the equipment out. With User 3 being done in case the DTM algo is actually tone mapping to P3
User1 - SDR709 - Color Profile 709, 6500K, 2.4, low lamp, iris -6 (~60 nits)
User2 - HDR2020 - Color Profile BT2020, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0
User3 - HDR-P3 - Color Profile DCI, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0
Am I understanding your post correctly?
Thanks again
I keep on thinking that 3rd is not needed and furthermore is going to overwrite the second calibration!
The manual is very clear: the color calibration applies to all profiles with same combination of lamp, Iris and filter. For the gamma just lamp and filter are relevant. In your case, you need to perform gamma calibration twice as well. So color+gamma for 1 and 2. The color space is not considered.
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Thanks Manni,
That is what I will do.
BTW if I understand your previous DTM posts correctly its probably worth doing three Picture modes while I have all the equipment out. With User 3 being done in case the DTM algo is actually tone mapping to P3
User1 - SDR709 - Color Profile 709, 6500K, 2.4, low lamp, iris -6 (~60 nits)
User2 - HDR2020 - Color Profile BT2020, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0
User3 - HDR-P3 - Color Profile DCI, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0
Am I understanding your post correctly?
Thanks again
User 1 and User 2 make sense, User 3 only makes sense if you use a power gamma, though you only have to run a gamma autocal for user 2 or user 3 if the filter/lamp settings are the same. However, you can try to run a color calibration both for user 2 and user 3 if doing just one of these doesn't calibrate your DTM mode.
I have calibrated my SDR rec-709 (gamma+color), SDR BT2020 (color only as it shares its gamma calibration with P3) and SDR P3 (gamma+color) modes and DTM was calibrated fine as far as I could see.
I don't use any HDR modes as I either tonemap with madVR to DCI-P3 or use the DTM for non madVR sources.
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So I read a bunch of people say their black level changed with the new firmware and instead of running -2 or -3 on the brightness they are back to 0. I just checked mine and it looks like I am in the same boat. If I ran autocal last week on gamma with brightness set to -2 do I need to re run autocal at brightness 0. I thought I had seen that answered before but couldn't find the post :O Also just a heads up for people that my brightness did change with the firmware update as some other users had reported (in SDR and HDR modes).
I had no such changes and I still need brightness set to -2 in both SDR or HDR in order not to raise the black level and kill on/off contrast. I didn't do a reset to factory settings though.
You shouldn't need to recalibrate after changing the brightness settings. As far as I know, user settings such as brightness/contrast and RGB offsets/gains or gamma settings are only applied for logs, but are not taken into account for calibration. This is why it's a good idea to use a 2.2 gamma and to reset RGB settings before calibration, if you want to have usable logs. Otherwise make sure that you check and adjust all user settings after calibration, as the old ones won't be valid but are still applied.
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I had no such changes and I still need brightness set to -2 in both SDR or HDR in order not to raise the black level and kill on/off contrast. I didn't do a reset to factory settings though.
You shouldn't need to recalibrate after changing the brightness settings. As far as I know, user settings such as brightness/contrast and RGB offsets/gains or gamma settings are only applied for logs, but are not taken into account for calibration. This is why it's a good idea to use a 2.2 gamma and to reset RGB settings before calibration, if you want to have usable logs. Otherwise make sure that you check and adjust all user settings after calibration, as the old ones won't be valid but are still applied.
Thanks, I didn't see much difference in HCFR, so I think I am good. Yeah I was definitely at -2 since February to get my black floor correct, I had to go back to 0 after the update to get 18 SDR /72 HDR visible blinking again ( still without showing 64 HDR and 16 SDR). I only checked because I saw a couple other people post the same thing, and I thought my image looked too dark during John Wick 3.
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User 1 and User 2 make sense, User 3 only makes sense if you use a power gamma, though you only have to run a gamma autocal for user 2 or user 3 if the filter/lamp settings are the same. However, you can try to run a color calibration both for user 2 and user 3 if doing just one of these doesn't calibrate your DTM mode.
I have calibrated my SDR rec-709 (gamma+color), SDR BT2020 (color only as it shares its gamma calibration with P3) and SDR P3 (gamma+color) modes and DTM was calibrated fine as far as I could see.
I don't use any HDR modes as I either tonemap with madVR to DCI-P3 or use the DTM for non madVR sources.
Thanks Manni, I will give it a try, when I get the new PJ
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User 1 and User 2 make sense, User 3 only makes sense if you use a power gamma, though you only have to run a gamma autocal for user 2 or user 3 if the filter/lamp settings are the same. However, you can try to run a color calibration both for user 2 and user 3 if doing just one of these doesn't calibrate your DTM mode.
I have calibrated my SDR rec-709 (gamma+color), SDR BT2020 (color only as it shares its gamma calibration with P3) and SDR P3 (gamma+color) modes and DTM was calibrated fine as far as I could see.
I don't use any HDR modes as I either tonemap with madVR to DCI-P3 or use the DTM for non madVR sources.
I respectfully disagree.
I'm pretty sure 3rd will nullify 2nd. Again, the color profile selected is not relevant according to the manual. Also in your example, if the two modes share the same combination, you don’t need to calibrate color again.
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On my JVC NX9 I performed a gamma+color autocal with my Spyder5Pro for DCI mode (iris=0). Everything looked perfect.
I use madvr + Kodi as the player, with madvr set to “display calibrated = DCI-P3”.
After adjusting Brightness to -3 and Contrast to +1 & Gamma to 2.4 PT3 DG3, I then went into HCFR with my i1D3 to fine-tune off screen (0.98 actual gain).
Using Custom 1/6500K, I found that I needed to drop green gain substantially to -11 just to get red and blue to come up.
Does that sound normal? If not, what could I be doing wrong?
Are these projectors known to have this much green push?
Other adjustments in this DCI mode included offset red to +4, offset green to +2 and offset blue to -2.
Doing the same in Natural mode (6500K; gamma 2.4 PT3 DG3), I found I still needed to drop green gain to -5, red gain to -1 and red offset to +3.
It should also be noted that after an autocal of HDR10 mode (no filter; HDR color) I then had to do some really crazy adjustments of gains/offsets (with ATV4K as source) to bring greyscale inline. Had to drop green gain to -15 and some other large adjustments of red and blue offsets. Again, just wondering what is normal and what I could be doing wrong overall.
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This wouldn't be normal if you were using the i1pro, but as you're using a Spyder that's probably where the adjustments come from.
I tested a Spyder X and it's unusable for color. It actually made the calibration significantly worse than it was (my previous color autocal had been made a few hundred hours earlier with my i1pro2).
There is nothing wrong with the panels or the projector, but if you use an inaccurate meter for color, then when you finetune it you'll find it needs significant corrections.
Plus you're not using a reference meter. The error in the i1display3 could be in the same direction or the opposite direction. So you might be under or overcorrecting with the i1display3. There is no way to know unless you use a reference meter for such corrections.
As advised in the basic section, I wouldn't recommend using a spyder for color autocal. It's fine for gamma only (and better than the i1pro2 for that), but unless you've established the degree of accuracy of the spyder it's better not to use it for color at all.
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On my JVC NX9 I performed a gamma+color autocal with my Spyder5Pro for DCI mode (iris=0). Everything looked perfect.
I use madvr + Kodi as the player, with madvr set to “display calibrated = DCI-P3”.
After adjusting Brightness to -3 and Contrast to +1 & Gamma to 2.4 PT3 DG3, I then went into HCFR with my i1D3 to fine-tune off screen (0.98 actual gain).
Using Custom 1/6500K, I found that I needed to drop green gain substantially to -11 just to get red and blue to come up.
Does that sound normal? If not, what could I be doing wrong?
Are these projectors known to have this much green push?
Other adjustments in this DCI mode included offset red to +4, offset green to +2 and offset blue to -2.
Doing the same in Natural mode (6500K; gamma 2.4 PT3 DG3), I found I still needed to drop green gain to -5, red gain to -1 and red offset to +3.
It should also be noted that after an autocal of HDR10 mode (no filter; HDR color) I then had to do some really crazy adjustments of gains/offsets (with ATV4K as source) to bring greyscale inline. Had to drop green gain to -15 and some other large adjustments of red and blue offsets. Again, just wondering what is normal and what I could be doing wrong overall.
Dropping green that far could be normal but remember you aren't adjusting that from stock as in "Are these projectors known to have this much green push?". You ran color autocal with a spyder which could just not be very accurate compared to the i1 Display Pro. Your spyder could have added a bunch of green during autocal. Or perhaps they are both off somewhat from each other in opposite directions meaning that after you use one, using the other to correct it could be a bigger adjustment.
Also, you should not really use positive offset adjustments as that will raise your black floor and lower your contrast ratio pretty considerably. Instead if you want to tune the calibration with a better meter after doing the automatic autocal you should use the autocal gamma adjustment tab along with HCFR and your i1D3 which is a manual process.
Open the gamma editor in autocal, and in that screen set the gamma to Custom1 and the correction value to whatever you are targeting, like 2.2 or 2.4.
In the autocal gamma screen you will see that you have 12 gamma points: 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 95.
On the projector set the gamma value to Custom1 as well and set the correction value to "Import".
In HCFR make sure that in references (Advanced -> Preferences -> References tab) you set the gamma target to the same one that you selected in autocal correction value, like power law gamma 2.2 or 2.4. Also make sure you have the correct white point selected like D65. Then open the Grey Scale view and right click on the line graph part on the bottom and make sure the "w/Gamma" option is enabled. Finally go to Measures -> Parameters, and change the number of greyscale levels from 10 to 20.
The first thing you should do in HCFR is click the 100 in the % White row and click the green triangle to display white on your screen. On the JVC in your 6500K color temp adjust the gains to balance your white to 100%.
Now, before you begin adjusting in autocal, click the run greyscale button to measure all 20 grey scale levels.
When that is done, pick a point from my number list above, click on that number in the % White row in HCFR grey scale view and then click the Green triangle to display the pattern on your screen. Then in autocal gamma screen, use the first slider to move to that same number point that you chose to adjust. With the second slider you can then move white, red, green, or blue up or down. Moving white moves all 3, so adjust them as you need with the second slider to bring all 3 to 100%. This is calibrating both white balance and gamma to your target for that percent. Repeat this for all 12 points.
When you are done you can save this in autocal if you want, but there is nothing else left to do if you just want to use it, just set the JVC to the Custom1 that you used to do the adjustment.
When you are all done with this, finish by double checking your brightness and contrast values with the black and white clipping test patterns.
Hopefully I made this process clear. If you are at least somewhat familiar with HCFR, autocal, and JVC menus you should have no trouble. Otherwise ask if you need clarification on something.
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On my JVC NX9 I performed a gamma+color autocal with my Spyder5Pro for DCI mode (iris=0). Everything looked perfect.
I use madvr + Kodi as the player, with madvr set to “display calibrated = DCI-P3”.
After adjusting Brightness to -3 and Contrast to +1 & Gamma to 2.4 PT3 DG3, I then went into HCFR with my i1D3 to fine-tune off screen (0.98 actual gain).
Using Custom 1/6500K, I found that I needed to drop green gain substantially to -11 just to get red and blue to come up.
Does that sound normal? If not, what could I be doing wrong?
Are these projectors known to have this much green push?
Other adjustments in this DCI mode included offset red to +4, offset green to +2 and offset blue to -2.
Doing the same in Natural mode (6500K; gamma 2.4 PT3 DG3), I found I still needed to drop green gain to -5, red gain to -1 and red offset to +3.
It should also be noted that after an autocal of HDR10 mode (no filter; HDR color) I then had to do some really crazy adjustments of gains/offsets (with ATV4K as source) to bring greyscale inline. Had to drop green gain to -15 and some other large adjustments of red and blue offsets. Again, just wondering what is normal and what I could be doing wrong overall.
I did not autocal color and I was deficient on red for grayscale which caused me to have to drop back green and blue by around -13 I think on gain and barely any on offset just for blue. I am on a studiotek 100 screen with the adjustment put in the jvc. So may just be normal.
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This wouldn't be normal if you were using the i1pro, but as you're using a Spyder that's probably where the adjustments come from.
I tested a Spyder X and it's unusable for color. It actually made the calibration significantly worse than it was (my previous color autocal had been made a few hundred hours earlier with my i1pro2).
There is nothing wrong with the panels or the projector, but if you use an inaccurate meter for color, then when you finetune it you'll find it needs significant corrections.
Plus you're not using a reference meter. The error in the i1display3 could be in the same direction or the opposite direction. So you might be under or overcorrecting with the i1display3. There is no way to know unless you use a reference meter for such corrections.
As advised in the basic section, I wouldn't recommend using a spyder for color autocal. It's fine for gamma only (and better than the i1pro2 for that), but unless you've established the degree of accuracy of the spyder it's better not to use it for color at all.
This makes a lot of sense. Now I'm wondering if I should revert back to my init file and just do the autocal for gamma only with SpyderPro5 and then do the manual gamma adjustments SirMaster graciously provided instructions for below.
In the end, I really just need 3 modes calibrated:
1. Natural 709 - for TV (mainly sports) - which I usually autocal and then use patterns in madvr set to calibrated to 709 (since I can't get patterns from my TV cable source)
2. Custom 1 (DCI) - for everything madvr - which I usually autocal and then use patterns in madvr set to calibrated to DCI-P3
3. HDR10 (BT2020) - for HDR from my ATV4K streaming content - which I usually autocal and then use patterns in Plex to calibrate
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Dropping green that far could be normal but remember you aren't adjusting that from stock as in "Are these projectors known to have this much green push?". You ran color autocal with a spyder which could just not be very accurate compared to the i1 Display Pro. Your spyder could have added a bunch of green during autocal. Or perhaps they are both off somewhat from each other in opposite directions meaning that after you use one, using the other to correct it could be a bigger adjustment.
Also, you should not really use positive offset adjustments as that will raise your black floor and lower your contrast ratio pretty considerably. Instead if you want to tune the calibration with a better meter after doing the automatic autocal you should use the autocal gamma adjustment tab along with HCFR and your i1D3 which is a manual process.
Open the gamma editor in autocal, and in that screen set the gamma to Custom1 and the correction value to whatever you are targeting, like 2.2 or 2.4.
In the autocal gamma screen you will see that you have 12 gamma points: 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 95.
On the projector set the gamma value to Custom1 as well and set the correction value to "Import".
In HCFR make sure that in references (Advanced -> Preferences -> References tab) you set the gamma target to the same one that you selected in autocal correction value, like power law gamma 2.2 or 2.4. Also make sure you have the correct white point selected like D65. Then open the Grey Scale view and right click on the line graph part on the bottom and make sure the "w/Gamma" option is enabled. Finally go to Measures -> Parameters, and change the number of greyscale levels from 10 to 20.
The first thing you should do in HCFR is click the 100 in the % White row and click the green triangle to display white on your screen. On the JVC in your 6500K color temp adjust the gains to balance your white to 100%.
Now, before you begin adjusting in autocal, click the run greyscale button to measure all 20 grey scale levels.
When that is done, pick a point from my number list above, click on that number in the % White row in HCFR grey scale view and then click the Green triangle to display the pattern on your screen. Then in autocal gamma screen, use the first slider to move to that same number point that you chose to adjust. With the second slider you can then move white, red, green, or blue up or down. Moving white moves all 3, so adjust them as you need with the second slider to bring all 3 to 100%. This is calibrating both white balance and gamma to your target for that percent. Repeat this for all 12 points.
When you are done you can save this in autocal if you want, but there is nothing else left to do if you just want to use it, just set the JVC to the Custom1 that you used to do the adjustment.
When you are all done with this, finish by double checking your brightness and contrast values with the black and white clipping test patterns.
Hopefully I made this process clear. If you are at least somewhat familiar with HCFR, autocal, and JVC menus you should have no trouble. Otherwise ask if you need clarification on something.
Wow, thanks so much for these instructions. Yes, I am familiar with these tools.
I didn't know about adding gains/offsets upsetting contrast. Good to know.
I also just learned that the color autocal affects the white balance - I had thought it was only adjusting the CMS (which I didn't touch in HCFR afterwards). I had no idea it was also affecting the gains/offsets even though they are still all set to 0 once done.
So, should my calibration approach now be?
1. Reset projector using autocal init file.
2. Perform a gamma only autocal (with/without filter - all in low lamp -for now)
3. Use HCFR and my i1D3 to perform the manual gamma calibration as per your instructions above.
I'd want to calibrate ideally all 3 of the user modes I listed in my previous post replying to Manni.
Would I be able to do that with this method by just switching it between each mode and repeating the steps you provided?
Also, finally a question about performing a DCI 3DLUT for use with madvr Custom 1 DCI mode after performing the above on that user mode:
As DisplayCal has that calibration window of it's own to lineup the bars in the middle with adjustments to gains/offsets - should I be making further adjustments in the gains/offsets to line that up before commencing the profiling and subsequent 3DLUT creation & installation?
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Wow, thanks so much for these instructions. Yes, I am familiar with these tools.
I didn't know about adding gains/offsets upsetting contrast. Good to know.
I also just learned that the color autocal affects the white balance - I had thought it was only adjusting the CMS (which I didn't touch in HCFR afterwards). I had no idea it was also affecting the gains/offsets even though they are still all set to 0 once done.
So, should my calibration approach now be?
1. Reset projector using autocal init file.
2. Perform a gamma only autocal (with/without filter - all in low lamp -for now)
3. Use HCFR and my i1D3 to perform the manual gamma calibration as per your instructions above.
I'd want to calibrate ideally all 3 of the user modes I listed in my previous post replying to Manni.
Would I be able to do that with this method by just switching it between each mode and repeating the steps you provided?
Also, finally a question about performing a DCI 3DLUT for use with madvr Custom 1 DCI mode after performing the above on that user mode:
As DisplayCal has that calibration window of it's own to lineup the bars in the middle with adjustments to gains/offsets - should I be making further adjustments in the gains/offsets to line that up before commencing the profiling and subsequent 3DLUT creation & installation?
Negative adjustments to gains/offsets don't harm black or contrast. Positive adjustments to offsets do, but I don't think positive adjustments to gains do.
Your approach sounds fine. You can fine tune each if you need by using a different custom gamma slot for each. Just use custom2 and custom3 for the other 2 modes you are making.
If you are doing a 3DLUT in DisplayCAL then you don't even need to do any adjustment for that user mode. Just leave your gamma in the JVC at 2.2 or 2.4 and do the 3DLUT. The 3DLUT will take care of calibrating absolutely everything as the i1D3 sees it. You do not need to do anything with the RGB bar screen that pops up before the 3DLUT. The 3DLUT will calibrate everything correctly including white.
Technically there is one other thing you could do that would potentially improve your color gamut. Normally this would be taken care of with color autocal, but you would want an i1 Pro 2 for this. However, this is a way to basically do it with any meter.
It's referred to as the Chad B method.
What he is describing here is a method of fixing the color gamut after doing a color autocal with a spyder. He talks about using CalMAN, but you can easily use HCFR as well. In HCFR under Measures -> Parameters, just set the number of saturation color levels to 10, then you can measure 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, and 100 color saturations to get the x and y values to fill in his spreadhseet like he says.
It's a somewhat advanced method, but it would potentially expand your color gamut since you are performing the measures with color profile off in the JVC (i.e. native bulb gamut) and then using the measurements to create a new custom color profile which will have the correct primary coordinates (according to the better meter being used in HCFR rather than the spyder via color autocal) which you can create and load via autocal.
I think technically automatic autocal wouldn't even be beneficial here.
1. You would do The Chad B method to create a custom color gamut based on color saturation measurements taken in HCFR with i1D3.
2. You would do adjust the gains to set 100% white with HCFR with i1D3.
3. You would do the 12 point RGB gamma calibration in autocal with HCFR with i1D3.
I guess you could still put a gamma autocal with the spyder in between steps 1 and 2 because you can get a more detailed 33-point gamma cal then and the spyder is OK for that.
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The above method works fine if the target gamut entirely fits withing the gamut covered by the projector.
If any point is undersaturated, it doesn't work as well as it cannot make the difference between a meter error and a limitation in the projector's native gamut, so it can over-correct unnecessarily. It usually works fine for rec-709 (unless green or red can't be reached), but it doesn't work as well for DCI-P3 or BT2020.
I recommend correcting only white, unless all the target primaries can be reached at 100% sat.
I have put together a modified method that produces better results with DCI-P3 and BT2020 (as well as rec-709 when the unit doesn't reach 100% sat for each primary), but the i1pro2 produces perfect results so my motivation for posting about this was pretty low.
If anyone is interested, I'll try to put it together next month, when I have a bit more time.
I haven't posted on the manual gamma calibration method either as no one asked and as it's pretty much unnecessary after a properly done gamma autocal, given how quickly these projectors drift. By the time you've tuned your last point, the first point has probably already drifted. I'm only slightly exaggerating :)
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The above method works fine if the target gamut entirely fits withing the gamut covered by the projector.
If any point is undersaturated, it doesn't work as well as it cannot make the difference between a meter error and a limitation in the projector's native gamut, so it can over-correct unnecessarily. It usually works fine for rec-709 (unless green or red can't be reached), but it doesn't work as well for DCI-P3 or BT2020.
I recommend correcting only white, unless all the target primaries can be reached at 100% sat.
I have put together a modified method that produces better results with DCI-P3 and BT2020 (as well as rec-709 when the unit doesn't reach 100% sat for each primary), but the i1pro2 produces perfect results so my motivation for posting about this was pretty low.
If anyone is interested, I'll try to put it together next month, when I have a bit more time.
I haven't posted on the manual gamma calibration method either as no one asked and as it's pretty much unnecessary after a properly done gamma autocal, given how quickly these projectors drift. By the time you've tuned your last point, the first point has probably already drifted. I'm only slightly exaggerating :)
I think that would be cool.
I agree it's not needed if you have an i1 Pro 2, but for people who don't, I think there is some value.
Personally I was looking into stuff like this so that I could calibrate my cousins RS400 which does not support the i1 Pro 2, only Spyder4/5.
I find that running the color autocal with a good meter actually expands the gamut coverage at least on my NX5 since it's able to carve out a new gamut from measurements taken with profile off on the native bulb. I was looking for a way to accomplish this for people who don't have a spectrometer or older JVC that don't support it.
Also I was wondering if you know what part of autocal is responsible for sometimes resulting in an increased peak brightness after running the autocal? I was hoping I could try to reproduce that potential brightness gain again for people who don't own an i1 Pro 2 or for older JVCs that don't support the spectrometer.
My assumption is that it's some internal calibration tables that we just cant access, but maybe via custom color gamut or similar, we can achieve it?
As far as the manual gamma cal I again agree that it's also not really needed if you can do the color autocal with the i1 Pro 2, but if you can't (for some above reasons) I find that it's a good way to perform the white balance if adjusting the gains alone isn't sufficient.
For example, here is my NX5 measured stock:
https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal_old/stock.pdf
I (https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal_old/stock.pdf)f all I had was a Spyder5 and i1D3 so all I could do is gamma autocal, the white balance is still pretty out of whack and the 12 point gamma cal is a good way to dial in the rest of the white balance without using the offset/bias adjustments which always seem to hurt more than help.
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I agree, I used all this with my rs500 as it only supported the spyder 4/5, but with the rs2000 and the i1pro2 support on top of the spyder 5/X, autocal is so much faster/easier :)
No spreadsheets, no fastidious, unnecessary manual corrections. Just gamma with Spyder, color with i1pro2, and you barely need a 3D LUT, all in less than 10 minutes. 8)
That's why my motivation to explain manual processes that are not needed with the right tools has gone significantly down.
They are still useful with older gens or if you want to cut corners, but if your time is money, investing in a Spyder X / i1pro2 combo is a no brainer.
Given the cost of these units (especially rs2000/rs3000), I'd say that it's a very reasonable investment for "maintenance".
I'll try to put something together next month though.
To answer your question about restoring brightness, it's a combination of two things:
1) The meter used. Some spyders are really off (up to 10dEs or more), so you can lose a lot of brightness using the wrong one for color calibration, as it will overcorrect and shave brightness unnecessarily.
2) Once the internal tables are corrected, you don't need the external gains corrections (or much less) and you can restore some brightness that way too.
No there is no way (that I know of) to access these tables, but it's not really necessary. Just make sure you're using a meter that doesn't hobble brightness with color calibrations because it's inaccurate (could be the spyder with autocal or any other meter used to adjust the gains at 100% white).
I find that if you use bias/gains at the optimal IRE for best balance and use the gamma controls in the menus (dark/picture/bright) you can get very close. That's much faster than using the manual gamma controls, but I agree it's less accurate.
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Does the color autocal drift like the gamma does as bulb ages?
I have an option to borrow a far away friend's i1photo pro 2 (is that the same as an i1pro2?) but obtaining it in the future for maintenance will be tougher. Just wondering if it might just be a one time calibration and that's it?
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The gamut doesn’t shift much (though it can shrink a bit after a couple of thousand hours) but the rgb balance keeps changing as the lamp ages. You could always do a color autocal now with a borrowed i1pro2 and keep checking. If your lamp has stabilized (it needs 300-500 hours) then you might be fine for a while.
Best would be to get an i1pro2 or ES2000, new or second hand.
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The gamut doesn’t shift much (though it can shrink a bit after a couple of thousand hours) but the rgb balance keeps changing as the lamp ages. You could always do a color autocal now with a borrowed i1pro2 and keep checking. If your lamp has stabilized (it needs 300-500 hours) then you might be fine for a while.
Best would be to get an i1pro2 or ES2000, new or second hand.
So is the i1pro2 the same as an i1photo pro 2 (E02PHO)? My friend has the latter as said on the box, but I think that's just the bundle - isn't it the same i1pro2 between the i1basic pro2, i1photo pro 2 and i1pubish pro 2?
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So is the i1pro2 the same as an i1photo pro 2 (E02PHO)? My friend has the latter as said on the box, but I think that's just the bundle - isn't it the same i1pro2 between the i1basic pro2, i1photo pro 2 and i1pubish pro 2?
No idea. There used to be differences with UV-cut between versions, but I can’t even remember which is the correct one for display calibration.
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I applied a variation to Chad method because I was concerned to work on the boundaries of the gamut.
So what I do is reading RGBW at 70,80,90 ire but with saturation 75%. I think it is more reliable because it is an area more used by the contents and far enough from VPR limits. I then interpolate to estimate xy values at 100% and then create a custom color profile. Same speculative approach for BT.2020, deriving the gaps with a proportional calculation.
Everything in excel. Very good results! Not applicable to DTM though :(
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My friend is going to ship me his i1pro2 (i1photo pro 2). I'll reset with my init file my NX9 and then do gamma only autocal with my Spyder5Pro and then color only on all iris positions, etc. with the i1pro2.
I'll then remeasure with HCFR & my i1d3 to see how much it is off of the autocal'd i1pro2, so that I can then return my friend's unit and then over time I can adjust gains/offsets with HCFR+i1d3 but then I'll be informed at least of how much it would be off and in what gains/offsets.
Does this look like a good approach? Just looking to avoid purchasing a $2000+ (Cdn) unit.
Side question: I noticed on my NX9 that the iris seems to engage it's motor every couple iris positions (whereas my older RS620 didn't do it so close together of positions).
So, just want to confirm on the NX9 that the color only autocal can still be done at 0, -5, -10, -15?
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My friend is going to ship me his i1pro2 (i1photo pro 2). I'll reset with my init file my NX9 and then do gamma only autocal with my Spyder5Pro and then color only on all iris positions, etc. with the i1pro2.
I'll then remeasure with HCFR & my i1d3 to see how much it is off of the autocal'd i1pro2, so that I can then return my friend's unit and then over time I can adjust gains/offsets with HCFR+i1d3 but then I'll be informed at least of how much it would be off and in what gains/offsets.
Does this look like a good approach? Just looking to avoid purchasing a $2000+ (Cdn) unit.
Side question: I noticed on my NX9 that the iris seems to engage it's motor every couple iris positions (whereas my older RS620 didn't do it so close together of positions).
So, just want to confirm on the NX9 that the color only autocal can still be done at 0, -5, -10, -15?
Sounds good. You could also train the i1d3 to the ipro2 (if checking color and gamma) or with the i1pro2 directly (if checking gamut) to make sure that it's not the i1d3 that adds some errors.
The iris make a different noise at each step depending on which iris is being moved, as the NX9 has a dual iris. That's normal.
You can do 0, -5, -10, -15 or you can do 0, -4, -8, -12, depending on which step you are actually using.
There is a very big difference between some steps (for example -13 and -12) so it's always better to make sure that the step you are actually using is calibrated.
As you don't have an i1pro2 permanently, I would probably do the second one (0-4-8-12) rather than the first, as it uses steps that are more useful. I used to use -15, so that's why I came up with these steps, but 0-4-8-12 are supposed to be the actual steps. Never rechecked as I only do color for the settings I actually use (only one color per calibration) until I need to open the iris a bit (not often!).
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Sounds good. You could also train the i1d3 to the ipro2 (if checking color and gamma) or with the i1pro2 directly (if checking gamut) to make sure that it's not the i1d3 that adds some errors.
The iris make a different noise at each step depending on which iris is being moved, as the NX9 has a dual iris. That's normal.
You can do 0, -5, -10, -15 or you can do 0, -4, -8, -12, depending on which step you are actually using.
There is a very big difference between some steps (for example -13 and -12) so it's always better to make sure that the step you are actually using is calibrated.
As you don't have an i1pro2 permanently, I would probably do the second one (0-4-8-12) rather than the first, as it uses steps that are more useful. I used to use -15, so that's why I came up with these steps, but 0-4-8-12 are supposed to be the actual steps. Never rechecked as I only do color for the settings I actually use (only one color per calibration) until I need to open the iris a bit (not often!).
Hey Manni, are you going to spend anytime or add a section with the Frame Adapt HDR? I would interested in hearing your impressions on various aspects of it. Such as which settings you found best, if you adjusted your iris + lamp settings with the frame adapt settings (ie High Adapt with iris closed down), and how you feel it stacks up to MadVR currently (I am also a MadVR user).
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Sounds good. You could also train the i1d3 to the ipro2 (if checking color and gamma) or with the i1pro2 directly (if checking gamut) to make sure that it's not the i1d3 that adds some errors.
The iris make a different noise at each step depending on which iris is being moved, as the NX9 has a dual iris. That's normal.
You can do 0, -5, -10, -15 or you can do 0, -4, -8, -12, depending on which step you are actually using.
There is a very big difference between some steps (for example -13 and -12) so it's always better to make sure that the step you are actually using is calibrated.
As you don't have an i1pro2 permanently, I would probably do the second one (0-4-8-12) rather than the first, as it uses steps that are more useful. I used to use -15, so that's why I came up with these steps, but 0-4-8-12 are supposed to be the actual steps. Never rechecked as I only do color for the settings I actually use (only one color per calibration) until I need to open the iris a bit (not often!).
Thanks or this. And yes, big steps on the iris:
-9 gets me 18ftL & -10 gets me 13.5ftL
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When doing gamma autocal, does doing it with filter engaged on DCI also calibrate gamma on filter engaged on BT2020? (i.e. is it the same filter or different filter necessitating a separate autocal)?
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When doing gamma autocal, does doing it with filter engaged on DCI also calibrate gamma on filter engaged on BT2020? (i.e. is it the same filter or different filter necessitating a separate autocal)?
Same filter, same gamma calibration (if lamp setting is the same)
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Hey Manni, are you going to spend anytime or add a section with the Frame Adapt HDR? I would interested in hearing your impressions on various aspects of it. Such as which settings you found best, if you adjusted your iris + lamp settings with the frame adapt settings (ie High Adapt with iris closed down), and how you feel it stacks up to MadVR currently (I am also a MadVR user).
I'll try to look at it more closely next month, when I get my life back :)
In the meantime, I posted my first impressions here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14262#msg14262).
It's definitely an improvement over the old static TM in most cases, so it's great for non HTPC sources or people who don't use madVR or a Radiance.
But madVR produces significantly better and more consistent results (which isn't a surprise).
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Same filter, same gamma calibration (if lamp setting is the same)
I can't seem to get the i1pro2 in the orange box in autocal. It would seem I'd have to move it so far back it would be well behind the projector. Does that sound right?
This is with iris = 0 low lamp.
I have it facing the screen.
If I place it 1' away it's almost at the projector in the interactive orange box picture.
edit: I just read this may be a bug. I'll position it in my typical 2' from screen.
Second question:
While I did my gamma only with brightness/contrast at 0; should I be setting my brightness/contrast before doing the color only calibrations?
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I can't seem to get the i1pro2 in the orange box in autocal. It would seem I'd have to move it so far back it would be well behind the projector. Does that sound right?
This is with iris = 0 low lamp.
I have it facing the screen.
If I place it 1' away it's almost at the projector in the interactive orange box picture.
edit: I just read this may be a bug. I'll position it in my typical 2' from screen.
Second question:
While I did my gamma only with brightness/contrast at 0; should I be setting my brightness/contrast before doing the color only calibrations?
Just replied to this two pages back (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14297#msg14297). It's also explained in step 9 of the general section in the basic preparation post (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10389#msg10389).
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Just replied to this two pages back (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14297#msg14297). It's also explained in step 9 of the general section in the basic preparation post (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10389#msg10389).
Got it, thanks.
Should I be setting my brightness/contrast before doing the color only calibration off screen or should I leave those at 0 like I did with the gamma only?
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I haven't seen anything about zeroing the Spyder X before use so I thought I'd mention it here. Unlike the Spyder 5 it requires that this be done. The zeroing run is done with the cap in place. I've found that it gives very wrong readings below about 30% or so if this is not done. This might even account for the bad color Autocals.
I haven't yet tried it with Autocal but I would presume that it is done by having the cap in place at startup similar to the i1Pro2. (Of course, that assumes that JVC has implemented it correctly.)
UPDATE!!!:
I've investigated further and found that the zeroing capability is strictly a function of the Argyll drivers. It still appears that the Spyder X is not as good at the lower levels as the Spyder 5 when the dark output is not zeroed, but the difference may not be that important.
In looking at the Spyder X vs. the Spyder 5 when not trained against the i1Pro, it appears that they have significantly different spectral characteristics (not really surprising). I hope that JVC has taken that into consideration but, given the problems seen by Manni (and Kris Deering), it seems possible that they have not.
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I haven't seen anything about zeroing the Spyder X before use so I thought I'd mention it here. Unlike the Spyder 5 it requires that this be done. The zeroing run is done with the cap in place. I've found that it gives very wrong readings below about 30% or so if this is not done. This might even account for the bad color Autocals.
I haven't yet tried it with Autocal but I would presume that it is done by having the cap in place at startup similar to the i1Pro2. (Of course, that assumes that JVC has implemented it correctly.)
Thanks, that's really interesting, though in my experience it's the reading above 30% that get progressively worse and worse in the Autocal. I had no problem with readings below 30%.
Also you can't use the i1pro2 is you don't do the dark recal. While the Autocal has no problem using the Spyder X without doing a dark cal procedure. So I doubt it is implemented in the software.
I'll give it another try next month when I get my life back :)
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I discovered this while I was comparing Spyder X, Spyder 5 and i1DisplayPro, using HCFR, all trained by my I1Pro. The Spyder 5 and i1DisplayPro tracked very well while the Spyder X looked really bad below 30-40%. One thing that I didn't think of at the time was that, even though it looked bad, dE might not have been very bad.
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Yes as I said in my brief report I'm waiting for the Spyder X to be supported in Calman because I just don't have it in me to do any test of the sort with Lightspace. Hopefully Calman support will arrive soon and I can take some measurements to compare the 5 pro, X pro and i1pro2. Otherwise I might give it a try with Lightspace, but it's really not ideal.
In any case, not before next month :)
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Hi all,
I am trying to make the first Autocal to my brand new RS2000. Not new to calibation, many years calibrating with HCFR and i1d3.
But now I am struggeling before start calibrating with Autocal. I just received the new SpyderX, installed the Autocal 12 v1 calibration software, deal with the network settings (working) but... the Autocal does not detect the spyderX.
Steps I followed:
- I download the spyderXpro_5.4_setup.exe from datacolor download website
- Installed it
- Autocal says spyderX not detected
- I noticed there is a datacolor icon in the lower bar and has the option to activate spyderX. I did it.
- Autocal says spyderX not detected
- Then I clicked on the exit option of the datacolor icon menu, as you recommend not to mix the software.
- Autocal says spyderX not detected
- I uninstall the spyderXpro_5.4, so not icon nor process should be running.
- Autocal says spyderX not detected
- I rebooted the laptop
- Autocal says spyderX not detected
Worth to say, that when I connect the spyderX to the USB port it is recognized by the system, it is displayed in the devices section of control pannel and I have the typical USB icon to extract the device. As well, I checked with the datacolor utility before unistalling it and it recognized the spyderX
By the way, I tried with HCFR 3.5.1.4 and I noticed the it neither recognizes the spyderX, but may be it shouldn't.
What I am doing wrong?
Can anyone help me?
Many thanks in advance.
Mario.
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Hi Mario,
Welcome to the thread :)
As explained in the basic section, you have to uninstall the Datacolor software that is only used to install the driver, otherwise the datacolor software loaded during startup conflicts with the Autocal.
As you have done so already, I have no idea why your Spyder X isn't detected.
If you're using a USB HUB, I would try to use a native USB port.
If you're using a laptop, I would try to use a powered USB HUB.
But if the Spyder X is detected by the datacalor software and not by the JVC Autocal, as long as you've double checked that it's the V12 that's installed and not another one, I have no idea.
Make sure the cap is off from the Spyder X.
I'd try from another PC/laptop if you can.
You could also try to run the task manager and make sure there is no resident left in memory.
Let us know if you find the reason, but that's weird.
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Hi Mario,
Welcome to the thread :)
As explained in the basic section, you have to uninstall the Datacolor software that is only used to install the driver, otherwise the datacolor software loaded during startup conflicts with the Autocal.
As you have done so already, I have no idea why your Spyder X isn't detected.
If you're using a USB HUB, I would try to use a native USB port.
If you're using a laptop, I would try to use a powered USB HUB.
But if the Spyder X is detected by the datacalor software and not by the JVC Autocal, as long as you've double checked that it's the V12 that's installed and not another one, I have no idea.
Make sure the cap is off from the Spyder X.
I'd try from another PC/laptop if you can.
You could also try to run the task manager and make sure there is no resident left in memory.
Let us know if you find the reason, but that's weird.
Thank you Manni!
This is driving me crazy!
I am using a native USB port and I tried with the 2 USB ports in the laptop. It is the same USB port I use with my i1d3 without problems.
I tried with the laptop connected to the power and not connected to.
Nothing seems to be resident in memory and the cap is open.
I tried with another laptop, but not able to get the network connection (!!)
Is there any hidden button to switch on the spyder?;D
So, if I undertsand:
1.- It is necessary to install the datacolor software utility, but after that uninstall it. This is supposed to get only the driver. Correct?. If I connect directly the spyderX without installing the utility, windows recognizes it and assign directly a driver, even if I previously unistall the device and the driver.
2.- Is it possible to install only the driver from datacolor and not the software utility?
3.- I attach 3 images: 1.- the message of Autocal, 2.- the driver as is recognized in the "device administrator"(sorry is in spanish) and 3.- the properties window of the driver wich shows date of 11-05-2011. Is the same as you have?
Any other idea?
Thanks again!
Mario.
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My Spyder X driver is different (and dated from 2006!) but it works, weirdly. I'm on Win 10 Pro x64 build 1903.
However my Spyder 5 driver doesn't show up, and Autocal V11 still works, so go figure. [EDIT: see jmonier's post below, and let us know your OS version)]
I would suggest to:
- Uninstall the Spyder X driver
- Disconnect the Spyder X
- Uninstall the Datacolor software (if not already done)
- Reboot
- Install the Datacolor software
- When asked, connect the Spyder X
- Once the driver is loaded, check it's the same as mine
- Uninstall the Datacolor software
- Reboot
- Try the Autocal V12
Hopefully this will install the correct driver and you'll be on your way.
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It appears that the Spyder X uses a generic driver on Win 10 ( and probably Win 8 ). Certainly if the Spyder X is plugged into the USB port without the Datacolor software installed it is recognized and Device Manager says the driver is valid. In addition, the driver folder in the Datacolor software is labeled "Win7 - USB".
My experience is that, for JVC use only, there is no need to install the Datacolor software on Win 10. On Win 7, the device driver in "Win7 - USB" is needed but it can (and in some cases must) be installed separately via Device Manager. See also:
https://support.datacolor.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/1846/0/spyderx-driver-on-windows-7-may-not-be-installed-properly
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Thanks, that makes sense and most likely explains it.
My recommendation to install/uninstall the Datacolor software to get the drive dates back to Windows 7 and the spyder 3/4, no doubt.
Good to know it's not necessary anymore on Windows 8/10 and 7 if up to date.
I'll update the basic section when I find the time.
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Hi Manni, I tried to perform a calibration with SpyderX and I experienced issues similar to what you reported: good gamma (although I think I lost too much luminance), but checked the grayscale and I got an increasing dE till exceeding 6% at 100%! Exceed of red. Still acceptable until 30% as you reported.
Have you had opportunities to test the spyderx alone to understand whether it is a software issue?
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Hi Manni, I tried to perform a calibration with SpyderX and I experienced issues similar to what you reported: good gamma (although I think I lost too much luminance), but checked the grayscale and I got an increasing dE till exceeding 6% at 100%! Exceed of red. Still acceptable until 30% as you reported.
Have you had opportunities to test the spyderx alone to understand whether it is a software issue?
As I said I'm hoping that by the time I have the time to look at this again (not before next month) there will be a Calman beta that supports the Spyder X. Otherwise I might reluctantly take a look with Lightspace.
Then we'll know if it's a software issue or if it's the Spyder.
You shouldn't be losing any luminance if you only use the Spyder for gamma.
If you use it for color as well, then yes you can lose a lot depending on how accurate that specific unit is.
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As I said I'm hoping that by the time I have the time to look at this again (not before next month) there will be a Calman beta that supports the Spyder X. Otherwise I might reluctantly take a look with Lightspace.
Then we'll know if it's a software issue or if it's the Spyder.
You shouldn't be losing any luminance if you only use the Spyder for gamma.
If you use it for color as well, then yes you can lose a lot depending on how accurate that specific unit is.
Ok, it must be the color calibration then... Hope you can provide more information next month
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this might be an obvious Q but I couldn't see an answer so thought I'd ask here
What exactly is contained in the cbd files?
For example, you do a gamma only then a colour only run, it creates
1) an init file (on first run)
2) a cbd file (after the gamma run)
3) a cbd file (after the colour run)
does the file contain the complete state of the pj (for that iris etc selection) at the time the cbd file is created? i.e. the content accumulates with each rune (so the file created at step 3 is the content from the 2nd file + whatever changed as a result of the colour run)
if so, how can there be only 1 init file if it creates n cbd files?
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this might be an obvious Q but I couldn't see an answer so thought I'd ask here
What exactly is contained in the cbd files?
For example, you do a gamma only then a colour only run, it creates
1) an init file (on first run)
2) a cbd file (after the gamma run)
3) a cbd file (after the colour run)
does the file contain the complete state of the pj (for that iris etc selection) at the time the cbd file is created? i.e. the content accumulates with each rune (so the file created at step 3 is the content from the 2nd file + whatever changed as a result of the colour run)
if so, how can there be only 1 init file if it creates n cbd files?
The init file is just the first cbd file. It's the only one that contains the projector state before the Autocal is used. Once the autocal has been used, there is no way to read that state. That's why it's unique. After that, the .cbd files contain the state after the autocal, not before (I think).
Last time I looked, each .cbd file contains the whole tables, it's not differential. They should all be the same size.
They save internal calibration tables, not settings.
To save settings, you have to save user modes, color profiles etc using the save options in the autocal.
That's why doing a reset to factory doesn't replace restoring the init file, and why restoring the init file shouldn't change your settings.
Reset to factory defaults = reset user settings.
Restore init file= restore calibration tables to their pre-autocal use state.
The only thing I was never able to find out (I did ask a few times but never got an answer) is whether the init file is specific to each unit, or if the tables all have the same values when they ship out of factory.
I never had the need (or the gut) to try restoring an init file from the same model but a different unit.
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Hi Manni,
Wondering if you can shed some light on an issue I have connecting my laptop to the RS2000 via Autocal v. 12. It won't connect (Connect NG) via a direct Ethernet connection from my laptop to the pj - DHCP off. The only way it would connect is through my home network - via DHCP on and having my home network assign an IP address. Here is my setup:
- Lenovo Yoga 2 in 1 laptop with no ethernet port - connection done via thunderbolt USB c port and a USB C to Gigabit Ethernet network adapter. this one - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X4S5AQO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X4S5AQO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
- The adapter works fine when I connect to my router and becomes an ethernet internet connection
- When I try to use it to connect to the pj via - DHCP off, IP address is the same in the pj as the autocal software
- using default network settings in pj and making sure IP address is the same in the software
- tried the power cycle as you describe in the troubleshooting section for the pj to reset the pj eithernet port
- tried to use another IP address; even the one assigned by the home network; still no go.
- Updated all drivers, bios etc on the laptop,
- workaround is just connecting the pj to the home network, but wanted to do a direct connection to the pj if possible
Just wondering if the adapter for some reason is causing the issue.
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As I said I'm hoping that by the time I have the time to look at this again (not before next month) there will be a Calman beta that supports the Spyder X. Otherwise I might reluctantly take a look with Lightspace.
Then we'll know if it's a software issue or if it's the Spyder.
You shouldn't be losing any luminance if you only use the Spyder for gamma.
If you use it for color as well, then yes you can lose a lot depending on how accurate that specific unit is.
Did you have oversaturated red like me?
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Hi Manni,
Wondering if you can shed some light on an issue I have connecting my laptop to the RS2000 via Autocal v. 12. It won't connect (Connect NG) via a direct Ethernet connection from my laptop to the pj - DHCP off. The only way it would connect is through my home network - via DHCP on and having my home network assign an IP address. Here is my setup:
- Lenovo Yoga 2 in 1 laptop with no ethernet port - connection done via thunderbolt USB c port and a USB C to Gigabit Ethernet network adapter. this one - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X4S5AQO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X4S5AQO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
- The adapter works fine when I connect to my router and becomes an ethernet internet connection
- When I try to use it to connect to the pj via - DHCP off, IP address is the same in the pj as the autocal software
- using default network settings in pj and making sure IP address is the same in the software
- tried the power cycle as you describe in the troubleshooting section for the pj to reset the pj eithernet port
- tried to use another IP address; even the one assigned by the home network; still no go.
- Updated all drivers, bios etc on the laptop,
- workaround is just connecting the pj to the home network, but wanted to do a direct connection to the pj if possible
Just wondering if the adapter for some reason is causing the issue.
Sorry but I never used direct connection, only connect through router with reserved DHCP address.
The only thing I would recommend is to check the IP address of the laptop when using a direct connection. Often it's a different range (for example, it would be 192.168.1.x with the router and 192.168.0.x with the direct connection, or even something completely different). So don't assume that you laptop IP address remains in the same range, and make sure the IP address of the PJ is assigned to the same range as the laptop, and the same IP mask (255.255.255.0 or whatever).
Good luck!
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Did you have oversaturated red like me?
No, my DCI red is slightly undersaturated, as can be seen on all the screenshots posted in the basic / advanced sections.
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Hi Manni,
Wondering if you can shed some light on an issue I have connecting my laptop to the RS2000 via Autocal v. 12. It won't connect (Connect NG) via a direct Ethernet connection from my laptop to the pj - DHCP off. The only way it would connect is through my home network - via DHCP on and having my home network assign an IP address. Here is my setup:
- Lenovo Yoga 2 in 1 laptop with no ethernet port - connection done via thunderbolt USB c port and a USB C to Gigabit Ethernet network adapter. this one - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X4S5AQO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X4S5AQO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
- The adapter works fine when I connect to my router and becomes an ethernet internet connection
- When I try to use it to connect to the pj via - DHCP off, IP address is the same in the pj as the autocal software
- using default network settings in pj and making sure IP address is the same in the software
- tried the power cycle as you describe in the troubleshooting section for the pj to reset the pj eithernet port
- tried to use another IP address; even the one assigned by the home network; still no go.
- Updated all drivers, bios etc on the laptop,
- workaround is just connecting the pj to the home network, but wanted to do a direct connection to the pj if possible
Just wondering if the adapter for some reason is causing the issue.
Why do you want to do a direct connection?
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@den110: I found an old procedure for a f/w update (older model X30) where JVC gave advice for direct connection. It's in on page 3, section 2. LAN Connection settings. Of course ignore everything else as it doesn't apply to our 4K models.
By the way make sure you're using a straight cable, you can't use a crossover cable for direct LAN connection.
I'd look at the IP address of the PC/Laptop first, and select a different IP address in the same range with the same subnet mask. It should work with the right cable.
I assume you'd like a direct connection with a laptop to be physically closer to the PJ if the PJ is located far away from the router, but if you can go through a router it's preferable and easier.
One thing I do when I need to be closer to the meters is I use Remote Desktop to control my laptop from an iPad. It works great and allows you to be mobile, while still having the calibrating PC/laptop connected to the router.
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Restore init file= restore calibration tables to their pre-autocal use state.
so a cbd file is the complete state of the projector after that particular run? i.e. No point keeping old files around once a new run is complete
how does one restore a cbd file? this isn't mentioned in the docs as far as I can see
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so a cbd file is the complete state of the projector after that particular run? i.e. No point keeping old files around once a new run is complete
how does one restore a cbd file? this isn't mentioned in the docs as far as I can see
It is mentioned at page 7:
Recovering Backup Data
1 Click the “IMPORT” button (4th button from left on the main screen).
2 Select the backup data file from the folder, and click “Open”.
3 The backup data is imported to the projector.
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so a cbd file is the complete state of the projector after that particular run? i.e. No point keeping old files around once a new run is complete
how does one restore a cbd file? this isn't mentioned in the docs as far as I can see
No, it's not the complete state of the projector, as explained in my former post. It's only the complete calibration tables (all the calibration tables, so the current state of the projector as far as internal calibration tables are concerned, not just the last one). It doesn't include any of the settings.
I keep all the files so that I can go back to a particular state if needed. It's a bit like incremental (not differential) backups, or your system disk images. You can keep as many as you want, but you only need the last one to go back to the previous state. Restoring the init file is only needed if you want to go back to factory state (re calibration tables, not settings).
You import/export the settings in the import/export menu.
You import a .cbd file in the settings menu (import backup file *.cbd), in the lower right part of the screen, to the right of where you specify the path to save them.
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Ok right, I see now (was looking in the import/export page as opposed to the settings page). Thanks. Is there any way to do a complete snapshot including settings? I guess I can write a script to do but would be convenient if that already exists somewhere already.
I am using a spyderx and an i1pro which seems to give excellent results with gamma 2.2 but measurably worse tracking at the low end (below 30%) with gamma 2.4 when verified with an i1d3 (corrected by the i1pro). My room is not bat cave but is dark (matt dark walls and ceiling, dark carpet). This is for rec709, iris at -10, low lamp for about 60nits.
The 2.2 runs is basically bang on throughout the range.
Any ideas on why this is the case or what data might help diagnose? For example, is it just the meter not being up to the job?
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Ok right, I see now (was looking in the import/export page as opposed to the settings page). Thanks. Is there any way to do a complete snapshot including settings? I guess I can write a script to do but would be convenient if that already exists somewhere already.
I am using a spyderx and an i1pro which seems to give excellent results with gamma 2.2 but measurably worse tracking at the low end (below 30%) with gamma 2.4 when verified with an i1d3 (corrected by the i1pro). My room is not bat cave but is dark (matt dark walls and ceiling, dark carpet). This is for rec709, iris at -10, low lamp for about 60nits.
The 2.2 runs is basically bang on throughout the range.
Any ideas on why this is the case or what data might help diagnose? For example, is it just the meter not being up to the job?
No way that I know of to do a complete export (calibration tables + settings).
Did you use the Spyder X for gamma only and the i1pro for color only? Both are up to their respective job, but neither is up to both jobs.
There shouldn't be any difference between gamma 2.2 and gamma 2.4, it's the same calibration. Provided you did a gamma only with the Spyder X and a color only with the i1pro.
I'm assuming you're looking at power 2.4 and not BT1886, as the i1d3 isn't able to read black so shouldn't be used for BT1886 calibration (unless a black reading is entered manually).
If you still have issues, please provide the logs screenshots for the Autocal with a 2.2 target after a gamma calibration with the Spyder X, and the gamut/color temp logs after a color calibration with the i1pro.
Of course, check that all your gamma settings and color temp settings are reset (preferably before calibration so the logs are readable). It can be useful to rest both color temp and gamma settings (not only entering zero values, select "reset to default" for each, just in case some values are saved somewhere.
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No, my DCI red is slightly undersaturated, as can be seen on all the screenshots posted in the basic / advanced sections.
I meant after the bad Color autocal. doesn't your spyder x (or software) tend to underestimate red?
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yes that's correct, spyder for gamma and i1pro for colour & power 2.4 rather than bt.1886.
I'll do another run, see if it improves (and will share the results here if not)
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@den110: I found an old procedure for a f/w update (older model X30) where JVC gave advice for direct connection. It's in on page 3, section 2. LAN Connection settings. Of course ignore everything else as it doesn't apply to our 4K models.
By the way make sure you're using a straight cable, you can't use a crossover cable for direct LAN connection.
I'd look at the IP address of the PC/Laptop first, and select a different IP address in the same range with the same subnet mask. It should work with the right cable.
I assume you'd like a direct connection with a laptop to be physically closer to the PJ if the PJ is located far away from the router, but if you can go through a router it's preferable and easier.
One thing I do when I need to be closer to the meters is I use Remote Desktop to control my laptop from an iPad. It works great and allows you to be mobile, while still having the calibrating PC/laptop connected to the router.
Hi Manni, so I found out what I was doing wrong. This is the procedure to connect directly to pj:
- plug ethernet cable into pj and laptop (I used a usb c to ethernet port adapter)
- find out ip address: go to cmd prompt and type in ipconfig. I got IPv4 address as: 169.254.182.10 and subnet mask as: 255.255.0.0 and default gateway as: 192.168.1.1 per my ethernet adapter
- go into pj's network menu and enter above values except change the IPv4 address by one number - I chose 11 for the last 2 values
- then enter the IPv4 values - 169.254.182.11 into autocal software
- presto! connection!
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Hi Manni, so I found out what I was doing wrong. This is the procedure to connect directly to pj:
- plug ethernet cable into pj and laptop (I used a usb c to ethernet port adapter)
- find out ip address: go to cmd prompt and type in ipconfig. I got IPv4 address as: 169.254.182.10 and subnet mask as: 255.255.0.0 and default gateway as: 192.168.1.1 per my ethernet adapter
- go into pj's network menu and enter above values except change the IPv4 address by one number - I chose 11 for the last 2 values
- then enter the IPv4 values - 169.254.182.11 into autocal software
- presto! connection!
Yes, that's what I was suggesting in my last post :)
Glad it worked for you. By the way, you don't need a DOS command to figure out the IP address, it's in the network adapter details in the control panel (network and sharing centre).
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I meant after the bad Color autocal. doesn't your spyder x (or software) tend to underestimate red?
We'll see that when I check the Spyder X with the next beta of Calman. I can't remember.
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I've been unable to make the JVC Autocal recognize the SpyderX on Windows 7. It works fine on Win 10 and the Datacolor program recognizes it on Win 7. Has anyone been able to make it work on Win 7?
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For me following these (https://support.datacolor.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/1846/0/spyderx-driver-on-windows-7-may-not-be-installed-properly) instructions all works fine in Win7.
Follow this step:
1) Install the Datacolor Software
2) Follow the instructions on the link above
3) Uninstall Datacolor Software
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Thanks. Unfortunately, that procedure did not work for me, but I now know that it's probably a problem with my computer and I can continue to investigate.
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Thanks. Unfortunately, that procedure did not work for me, but I now know that it's probably a problem with my computer and I can continue to investigate.
Did you update your Win 7 to the latest service pack? I think it's a requirement for the Spyder X driver.
There is also the option of upgrading to Windows 10... Good luck!
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My Spyder X driver is different (and dated from 2006!) but it works, weirdly. I'm on Win 10 Pro x64 build 1903.
However my Spyder 5 driver doesn't show up, and Autocal V11 still works, so go figure. [EDIT: see jmonier's post below, and let us know your OS version)]
I would suggest to:
- Uninstall the Spyder X driver
- Disconnect the Spyder X
- Uninstall the Datacolor software (if not already done)
- Reboot
- Install the Datacolor software
- When asked, connect the Spyder X
- Once the driver is loaded, check it's the same as mine
- Uninstall the Datacolor software
- Reboot
- Try the Autocal V12
Hopefully this will install the correct driver and you'll be on your way.
Hi,
I solved finally...using another laptop. The only differences between the laptops and the process are:
- The windows version. Both Windows 10 64 bit. Laptop working: version 1803. Laptop not working: 14xx.
- In the laptop working, I never installed the datacolor software. In the previous one I first installed the software and then trying uninstalling or disabling it and never worked.
So, one of the 2 reasons is causing the problem. I am prone to think that installing datacolor sotware for spyderX, does something in the system preventing Autocal to detect the spyderX, even you unistall the software later.
And because the driver is automatically installed by windows 10 when you connect the spyderX, my advice is: DO NOT INSTALL DATACOLOR SOFTWARE. You do not need it and may cause problems with Autocal detecting the spyderX.
Thanks Manni for your help.
Now, let's calibrate.
Mario.
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Hi,
I solved finally...using another laptop. The only differences between the laptops and the process are:
- The windows version. Both Windows 10 64 bit. Laptop working: version 1803. Laptop not working: 14xx.
- In the laptop working, I never installed the datacolor software. In the previous one I first installed the software and then trying uninstalling or disabling it and never worked.
So, one of the 2 reasons is causing the problem. I am prone to think that installing datacolor sotware for spyderX, does something in the system preventing Autocal to detect the spyderX, even you unistall the software later.
And because the driver is automatically installed by windows 10 when you connect the spyderX, my advice is: DO NOT INSTALL DATACOLOR SOFTWARE. You do not need it and may cause problems with Autocal detecting the spyderX.
Thanks Manni for your help.
Now, let's calibrate.
Mario.
Hi Mario,
Glad to hear it's working now. :)
No that can't be the reason, because I did install/uninstall the Datacolor software, and that didn't prevent the Windows driver from being found/loaded.
I think it's more likely the fact that you were using a very old Windows build.
Anyway it's good to know that we don't need to install/uninstall the Datacolor software on windows 8/10 the way we did on Windows 7. I'll update the instructions when I find a minute, but I don't think they hurt.
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Hi Manni and everybody else, I just found and registered to this forum now also ..... 8)
I confirm that it's not necessary to install Datacolor to use the SpyderX only for Autocal, I'd say it's even adviseable not too ( avoid having to disable autostart of Datacolor's background task ).
JJ.
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Hi Manni and everybody else, I just found and registered to this forum now also ..... 8)
I confirm that it's not necessary to install Datacolor to use the SpyderX only for Autocal, I'd say it's even adviseable not too ( avoid having to disable autostart of Datacolor's background task ).
JJ.
Hi JJ, welcome!
There is no need to disable the background task if you uninstall the software as recommended in the basic section (which I recommend you read first).
I'll update the instructions when I find the time, but they don't hurt if you follow them :)
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I'm disappointed with my i1Pro2 ... With CalMAN, LightSpace and ChromaPure it works correctly, but with AutoCAL it doesn't!
He tells me again and again "Can not detect the sensor. Check again."
Does it happen to any more? What solution do you have?
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I'm disappointed with my i1Pro2 ... With CalMAN, LightSpace and ChromaPure it works correctly, but with AutoCAL it doesn't!
He tells me again and again "Can not detect the sensor. Check again."
Does it happen to any more? What solution do you have?
Please read the basic section and the FAQ before posting a question, as explained in the first post.
The i1pro2 needs to be initialized before each autocal (just as you need to in Calman, Lightspace and Chromapure). This is explained in the basic section, in the preparation post.
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Please read the basic section and the FAQ before posting a question, as explained in the first post.
The i1pro2 needs to be initialized before each autocal (just as you need to in Calman, Lightspace and Chromapure). This is explained in the basic section, in the preparation post.
"Meter(s) connection and positioning
- To connect the meters, make sure that the Spyder5 (recommended for gamma calibration) has its cover off (it splits in two and you have to take the cap off to reveal the lens, that has to face the projector). If you're using the i1pro2 (recommended for color calibration), make sure that it lies on its calibration plate when you select it, and immediately press the calibration button on the i1pro2 in order to start a white calibration. If you fail to do so, the software will report after a few seconds that it can't find the meter."
He had followed her to the letter and I can't. The other programs do NOT need you to press the i1Pro2 key ...
I am blocked!!!!!
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"Meter(s) connection and positioning
- To connect the meters, make sure that the Spyder5 (recommended for gamma calibration) has its cover off (it splits in two and you have to take the cap off to reveal the lens, that has to face the projector). If you're using the i1pro2 (recommended for color calibration), make sure that it lies on its calibration plate when you select it, and immediately press the calibration button on the i1pro2 in order to start a white calibration. If you fail to do so, the software will report after a few seconds that it can't find the meter."
He had followed her to the letter and I can't. The other programs do NOT need you to press the i1Pro2 key ...
I am blocked!!!!!
It is true that only Calman supports the physical button on the i1pro2, but they all require you to initialize the i1pro2 by putting it on its plate and either pressing the button on the i1pro2 (Calman) or by pressing a button to initialize the meter (Lightspace, etc). It's exactly the same here, except that the Autocal supports the i1pro2 physical button like Calman, and doesn't provide clear instructions regarding what to do.
As soon as you select the i1pro2 in the JVC Autocal, you have to press the button on the ip1ro2 (while it's on its plate), and keep it pressed for a few seconds. It should then display the pattern and the meter positioning frame (which doesn't work with the i1pro2, simply place it around 2 ft from the screen, pointing up towards the centre).
If you wait too long before selecting the i1pro2 , or if you don't keep the button pressed long enough, the i1pro2 will NOT be detected by the JVVC Autocal.
If that doesn't happen I have no idea why.
Maybe someone else can explain it better than I do.
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I tried again, same setup as before using a spyderx and i1pro with gamma 2.4, iris -10 and reset the various settings before starting
I've attached pics from the jvc app and then I ran a quick gamma check in HCFR which shows an actual gamma of 2.5 and it seems too much red.
Curiously the same quick gamma check for the DCI-P3 run also shows gamma 0.1 too high at approx 2.3 albeit that one has a much tighter RGB balance (makes me think I'm doing something wrong when verifying though I don't know what)
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I had a hunch about the light levels so I bumped the iris to -9 from -10 and did another cal, forgot to take pics of the jvc log unfortunately but HCFR now reports something much closer to target. I'm not sure if this is common behaviour but the steps on the iris do seem v large, -10 to -9 adds about 18nits in my case and the resulting calibration seems more stable too.
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Significant brightness differences between some iris steps is normal.
Gamma should be flat after autocal, but the power isn't exact. You often have to select 2.3 or 2.5 to get 2.4. That's normal.
You should reset all your user settings and select a target of 2.2 during the autocal. That way the log will show more clearly if the autocal goes well or not, at least according to the Spyder X / Autocal. If you select any other target, the post cal line in the log isn't flat so there is no way to know how close you are. It doesn't make a significant difference if you select 2.4 afterwards, even less if you use a 3D LUT on top. If any user settings are applied (gamma, color temp), they are ignored during the autocal but enabled during the log, so it can also cause some head scratching.
Overall it doesn't look like you're doing too bad. Make sure you've cleared all your user settings. Do a reset to factory defaults if necessary to be sure.
As long as you run a gamma autocal with spyder X and an color autocal with the i1pro at the filter/lamp/iris setting you are using for each calibration and your user settings are reset, you should be fairly close.
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I have an i1Pro2 (actually it's an OEM EFI ES-2000) but I follwed Manni's instructions to the T and the autocal software works.
One thing that's important is that you need to have the 2006 driver for the i1Pro2 installed, not the 2009 one. If you let Windows install the driver automatically then it installed the incorrect 2009 one.
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Significant brightness differences between some iris steps is normal.
Gamma should be flat after autocal, but the power isn't exact. You often have to select 2.3 or 2.5 to get 2.4. That's normal.
You should reset all your user settings and select a target of 2.2 during the autocal. That way the log will show more clearly if the autocal goes well or not, at least according to the Spyder X / Autocal. If you select any other target, the post cal line in the log isn't flat so there is no way to know how close you are. It doesn't make a significant difference if you select 2.4 afterwards, even less if you use a 3D LUT on top. If any user settings are applied (gamma, color temp), they are ignored during the autocal but enabled during the log, so it can also cause some head scratching.
Overall it doesn't look like you're doing too bad. Make sure you've cleared all your user settings. Do a reset to factory defaults if necessary to be sure.
As long as you run a gamma autocal with spyder X and an color autocal with the i1pro at the filter/lamp/iris setting you are using for each calibration and your user settings are reset, you should be fairly close.
To be honest a dE greater than 4 using an i1pro is not a good result imho. The behavior is not that different than what is happening with spyder x: an error progressively increasing. Less impacting but still there. Still oversaturated red. I think the color patterns autocal is using are incorrect in some cases.
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Significant brightness differences between some iris steps is normal.
Gamma should be flat after autocal, but the power isn't exact. You often have to select 2.3 or 2.5 to get 2.4. That's normal.
You should reset all your user settings and select a target of 2.2 during the autocal. That way the log will show more clearly if the autocal goes well or not, at least according to the Spyder X / Autocal. If you select any other target, the post cal line in the log isn't flat so there is no way to know how close you are. It doesn't make a significant difference if you select 2.4 afterwards, even less if you use a 3D LUT on top. If any user settings are applied (gamma, color temp), they are ignored during the autocal but enabled during the log, so it can also cause some head scratching.
Overall it doesn't look like you're doing too bad. Make sure you've cleared all your user settings. Do a reset to factory defaults if necessary to be sure.
As long as you run a gamma autocal with spyder X and an color autocal with the i1pro at the filter/lamp/iris setting you are using for each calibration and your user settings are reset, you should be fairly close.
Previous runs with 2.2 show a flat line after autocal. I'll stick to 2.2 in future and change it afterwards instead.
It seems that changing just the iris by 1 position makes an unexpectedly (to me) large difference.
At -10, it produces much too high gamma (>2.5) and a colour temperature which seems to be aiming at a target of around 6000K. It is consistent but seems quite wrong so dE is frequently >4.
Whereas at -9, gamma comes out pretty much on target (hovers around 2.42) and there is a consistent colour temp at around 6400k with an average dE ~0.5 and a max of <1 as measured by a quick verification chart in displaycal.
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Previous runs with 2.2 show a flat line after autocal. I'll stick to 2.2 in future and change it afterwards instead.
It seems that changing just the iris by 1 position makes an unexpectedly (to me) large difference.
At -10, it produces much too high gamma (>2.5) and a colour temperature which seems to be aiming at a target of around 6000K. It is consistent but seems quite wrong so dE is frequently >4.
Whereas at -9, gamma comes out pretty much on target (hovers around 2.42) and there is a consistent colour temp at around 6400k with an average dE ~0.5 and a max of <1 as measured by a quick verification chart in displaycal.
Provided you select the iris setting before running the color only autocal with the i1pro and are not changing anything else (i.e. are not selecting a different picture mode or anything, just keep the settings used for the autocal and NOT changing the iris setting afterwards) this doesn't make much sense. Please do a reset to factory settings with the remote and try again. If this still happens, then I have no idea why. I'll try to reproduce here but I had zero issues with the i1pro and Autocal V12 here in my last brief calibration session. I calibrated iris open for HDR and -12 for SDR, with no issue. I'll post screenshots next month.
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I experienced something similar for two different position of the iris. I used Spyder X only though.
I calibrated gamma + color with low lamp, filter on, iris = -6 and I got a very bad color temperature with a dE > 6. I saw in the log that it read a very poor red and tried to fix it but actually it was almost good and it made it worst (and decreased the luminance trying to overfix).
I calibrated then color only with combination low lamp, filter on, iris = -4 and it applied almost no change to the gamut! I was expecting same behavior: reading poor red and trying to fix it. First thing I though is that the first calibration with iris = -6 affected also iris = -4. But that should not be the case, as the different aperture should lead to a different calibration.
So even though the effects are different, still I have the feeling that the software is doing something wrong in specific conditions. I believe that the patterns used are wrong.
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I experienced something similar for two different position of the iris. I used Spyder X only though.
I calibrated gamma + color with low lamp, filter on, iris = -6 and I got a very bad color temperature with a dE > 6. I saw in the log that it read a very poor red and tried to fix it but actually it was almost good and it made it worst (and decreased the luminance trying to overfix).
I calibrated then color only with combination low lamp, filter on, iris = -4 and it applied almost no change to the gamut! I was expecting same behavior: reading poor red and trying to fix it. First thing I though is that the first calibration with iris = -6 affected also iris = -4. But that should not be the case, as the different aperture should lead to a different calibration.
So even though the effects are different, still I have the feeling that the software is doing something wrong in specific conditions. I believe that the patterns used are wrong.
You can't use the Spyder X for color, you're more likely to make things worse than better, we've already said there is possibly a bug in V12 regarding the Spyder X and color calibration, so I have no idea why we're discussing this.
If the patterns were wrong, they would be wrong for everyone, all the time, not just in some cases. They might be wrong for the Spyder X when doing color. They are not wrong for the i1pro2. We'll find out when someone does some tests with the Spyder X compared to another meter. I've already said that I will do it, but not until next month.
The ranges might be different though. That's why I always calibrate the iris settings that I actually use, and advise others to do so. Calibrating ranges is never 100% accurate.
Please stop posting about the Spyder X color calibration. We know it doesn't work as intended. Just use it for gamma and nothing else until we know more.
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Provided you select the iris setting before running the color only autocal with the i1pro and are not changing anything else (i.e. are not selecting a different picture mode or anything, just keep the settings used for the autocal and NOT changing the iris setting afterwards) this doesn't make much sense. Please do a reset to factory settings with the remote and try again.
that's correct, no other settings changed except the iris and then gamma only with the spyder followed by colour only with the i1pro.
I'll repeat the same process after a factory reset next time I get time to do so.
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Just to say that I've asked HDFury to implement the Frame Adapt HDR picture mode in the JVC Macro implementation of the Vertex/Maestro.
I've tested a f/w this morning and it works great.
Here is the command that is implemented for direct switch to Frame Adapt HDR: \x21\x89\x01\x52\x43\x37\x33\x45\x43\x0A
So watch out for a new f/w soon implementing this new mode.
Thanks to Mike Garrett for providing the info from JVC and to HDFury for implementing it so fast :)
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You can't use the Spyder X for color, you're more likely to make things worse than better, we've already said there is possibly a bug in V12 regarding the Spyder X and color calibration, so I have no idea why we're discussing this.
If the patterns were wrong, they would be wrong for everyone, all the time, not just in some cases. They might be wrong for the Spyder X when doing color. They are not wrong for the i1pro2. We'll find out when someone does some tests with the Spyder X compared to another meter. I've already said that I will do it, but not until next month.
The ranges might be different though. That's why I always calibrate the iris settings that I actually use, and advise others to do so. Calibrating ranges is never 100% accurate.
Please stop posting about the Spyder X color calibration. We know it doesn't work as intended. Just use it for gamma and nothing else until we know more.
I don't understand your tone. I was just trying to provide more elements to figure out together why the results are so wrong. I believed this was a forum to exchange our experience with the goal of enriching our knowledge and help other people that are trying to use the tool.
I know that Spyder X is not precise for color, but:
- it cannot be that bad as the results we are getting
- most of people simply can't afford an i1pro2
- It has been said that Spyder X is more accurate than Spyder 5 and I can ensure that a lot of people bought it to calibrate color.
- apparently there are some combinations where it seems to work correctly.
- we have seen strange behavior also with an i1pro2 few posts above, so it can still be related to the software/patterns. How can you exclude it?
Don't you think can be valuable to investigate a little bit more? I will stop posting then and do my test alone, without exchanging what I may discover. Just wait for a months your tests without having the opportunity to talk. But this sounds really weird to me
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I don't understand your tone. I was just trying to provide more elements to figure out together why the results are so wrong. I believed this was a forum to exchange our experience with the goal of enriching our knowledge and help other people that are trying to use the tool.
I know that Spyder X is not precise for color, but:
- it cannot be that bad as the results we are getting
- most of people simply can't afford an i1pro2
- It has been said that Spyder X is more accurate than Spyder 5 and I can ensure that a lot of people bought it to calibrate color.
- apparently there are some combinations where it seems to work correctly.
- we have seen strange behavior also with an i1pro2 few posts above, so it can still be related to the software/patterns. How can you exclude it?
Don't you think can be valuable to investigate a little bit more? I will stop posting then and do my test alone, without exchanging what I may discover. Just wait for a months your tests without having the opportunity to talk. But this sounds really weird to me
I'm not stopping anyone from doing any tests, but you won't be able to do any of these tests if you only have a Spyder X.
I don't see the point of speculating, but any useful info is more than welcome, especially if someone wants to do tests between a Spyder X and a reference meter (or near reference meter like an i1pro) in another software, which is what we need to figure out if the difference comes from the meter or the software. Until someone does that, I don't think anything else really matters.
Your last post simply doesn't add any useful data. It makes assumptions when what we need is facts.
So feel free to post useful data, but saying things like "I think there is something wrong" doesn't help, when we've already established there was something wrong.
Again, in my experience, the Spyder X cannot be used for color autocal yet, and the i1pro2 works fine in V12.
I've only done brief tests, I'll do more next month (not in a month).
In the meantime, it's a public forum, do whatever you like. :)
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I'm not stopping anyone from doing any tests, but you won't be able to do any of these tests if you only have a Spyder X.
I don't see the point of speculating, but any useful info is more than welcome, especially if someone wants to do tests between a Spyder X and a reference meter (or near reference meter like an i1pro) in another software, which is what we need to figure out if the difference comes from the meter or the software. Until someone does that, I don't think anything else really matters.
Your last post simply doesn't add any useful data. It makes assumptions when what we need is facts.
So feel free to post useful data, but saying things like "I think there is something wrong" doesn't help, when we've already established there was something wrong.
Again, in my experience, the Spyder X cannot be used for color autocal yet, and the i1pro2 works fine in V12.
I've only done brief tests, I'll do more next month (not in a month).
In the meantime, it's a public forum, do whatever you like. :)
Well, you said: Please stop posting about the Spyder X color calibration...
However I own a ColorMunki and I'm checking results of Autocal with an i1d3 profiled with the ColorMunki within Calman. Otherwise how I could say that the calibration didn't work? How could I estimate the excess of red without a term of comparison? So after all there is something to say I believe... Let judge the others if I add value ;)
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Well, you said: Please stop posting about the Spyder X color calibration...
However I own a ColorMunki and I'm checking results of Autocal with an i1d3 profiled with the ColorMunki within Calman. Otherwise how I could say that the calibration didn't work? How could I estimate the excess of red without a term of comparison? So after all there is something to say I believe... Let judge the others if I add value ;)
We need to compare the reading of the Spyder X with the reading of a reference meter in a software that supports both. At the moment, Calman doesn't, which is one of the reasons why I'm waiting because I don't have the time to get into Lightspace to do this at the moment.
I don't consider an i1d3 profiled to a Colormunki to be reference or near reference, in fact you're just as likely to make the i1d3 worse rather than more accurate profiling it to a colormunki. I wouldn't use my i1pro2 to profile an i1d3 as there is no way to know which is more accurate on LCOS. But even an i1d3, profiled or not to a colormunki, that would be better than nothing.
Comparing the reading of the Spyder X in the autocal with the reading of another meter in another software is pointless, because we've already established that the Autocal is most likely doing something wrong with the Spyder X regarding color calibration. Until we can confirm this by using the same software to check if the meter is wrong or not and provide that information to JVC, I really don't see the value of your data.
I'm not going to stop you from posting whatever you want to post, but I won't discuss this further until you actually provide some useful info (in my opinion, of course everyone is free to make their own assessment).
Again, it's a free forum. :)
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It is true that only Calman supports the physical button on the i1pro2, but they all require you to initialize the i1pro2 by putting it on its plate and either pressing the button on the i1pro2 (Calman) or by pressing a button to initialize the meter (Lightspace, etc). It's exactly the same here, except that the Autocal supports the i1pro2 physical button like Calman, and doesn't provide clear instructions regarding what to do.
As soon as you select the i1pro2 in the JVC Autocal, you have to press the button on the ip1ro2 (while it's on its plate), and keep it pressed for a few seconds. It should then display the pattern and the meter positioning frame (which doesn't work with the i1pro2, simply place it around 2 ft from the screen, pointing up towards the centre).
If you wait too long before selecting the i1pro2 , or if you don't keep the button pressed long enough, the i1pro2 will NOT be detected by the JVVC Autocal.
If that doesn't happen I have no idea why.
Maybe someone else can explain it better than I do.
I find this odd.
Autocal finds and uses my i1 Pro 2 perfectly well without me ever touching it's button whatsoever.
I do leave it lying on the white calibration plate when I select the meter in autocal, and then I remove it shortly after selecting the meter while autocal is on the meter placement screen.
As soon as I click the meter in Autocal, the light on the back of the i1 Pro 2 lights up and goes off (which indicates it's taking a reading) then lights back up again as it tries to read the screen during meter placement.
Also, a i1 Pro 2 should be more accurate than an i1D3. There is nothing special about LCoS for an i1 Pro 2 to read.
Spectrometers only care about the spectral bands of the light source and in the case of JVC NX, that is UHP mercury lamp which does not have really narrow spectral bands. Whether the UHP lamp light goes through 3LCD or bounces off DLP or LCoS doesn't make its spectral bands narrower, so the i1 Pro 2 at 10nm bands should be plenty sufficient to get an accurate reading of the color. You could further take the readings with DisplayCAL or HCFR as well which will read in 3.3nm bands and be slightly more detailed as well with narrower spectral light sources. Tests with high end Jeti 5nm spectrometers shows that reading the i1 Pro 2 in 3.3nm mode does indeed improve its accuracy.
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It is true that only Calman supports the physical button on the i1pro2, but they all require you to initialize the i1pro2 by putting it on its plate and either pressing the button on the i1pro2 (Calman) or by pressing a button to initialize the meter (Lightspace, etc). It's exactly the same here, except that the Autocal supports the i1pro2 physical button like Calman, and doesn't provide clear instructions regarding what to do.
As soon as you select the i1pro2 in the JVC Autocal, you have to press the button on the ip1ro2 (while it's on its plate), and keep it pressed for a few seconds. It should then display the pattern and the meter positioning frame (which doesn't work with the i1pro2, simply place it around 2 ft from the screen, pointing up towards the centre).
If you wait too long before selecting the i1pro2 , or if you don't keep the button pressed long enough, the i1pro2 will NOT be detected by the JVVC Autocal.
If that doesn't happen I have no idea why.
Maybe someone else can explain it better than I do.
I have passed the i1Diagnostics 4 and it gives me the following error, but I already say that with the rest of the programs it works correctly ... Is that error correct?
(https://i.imgur.com/wMFbxfl.jpg)
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Below I show you the profiling that I have done to my SpyderX Pro vs i1Pro2.
(https://i.imgur.com/0RqeBxc.jpg)
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Below I show you the profiling that I have done to my SpyderX Pro vs i1Pro2.
(https://i.imgur.com/0RqeBxc.jpg)
Spyder x does not look that bad.
what software are you using to profile? Unfortunately no profiling is possible with Autocal. Workaround is creating custom color profile with Chad method, not applicable in combination with DTM though. Unless someone doesn’t find a different workaround. If only they allowed entering a correction matrix...
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I have passed the i1Diagnostics 4 and it gives me the following error, but I already say that with the rest of the programs it works correctly ... Is that error correct?
(https://i.imgur.com/wMFbxfl.jpg)
Looks like there might be something wrong with your i1pro2, but if it works with other software it should work with the Autocal too. Your Spyder X looks fairly close to it, at least for white.
Are you using the matching calibration plate that came with your i1pro2 when you initialize it?
If it fails the diags you might have to send it to xrite for a recertification.
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I find this odd.
Autocal finds and uses my i1 Pro 2 perfectly well without me ever touching it's button whatsoever.
I do leave it lying on the white calibration plate when I select the meter in autocal, and then I remove it shortly after selecting the meter while autocal is on the meter placement screen.
As soon as I click the meter in Autocal, the light on the back of the i1 Pro 2 lights up and goes off (which indicates it's taking a reading) then lights back up again as it tries to read the screen during meter placement.
Also, a i1 Pro 2 should be more accurate than an i1D3. There is nothing special about LCoS for an i1 Pro 2 to read.
Spectrometers only care about the spectral bands of the light source and in the case of JVC NX, that is UHP mercury lamp which does not have really narrow spectral bands. Whether the UHP lamp light goes through 3LCD or bounces off DLP or LCoS doesn't make its spectral bands narrower, so the i1 Pro 2 at 10nm bands should be plenty sufficient to get an accurate reading of the color. You could further take the readings with DisplayCAL or HCFR as well which will read in 3.3nm bands and be slightly more detailed as well with narrower spectral light sources. Tests with high end Jeti 5nm spectrometers shows that reading the i1 Pro 2 in 3.3nm mode does indeed improve its accuracy.
Was it always the case that you didn't need to press the button? With V11 my i1pro2 wasn't detected by the Autocal until I pressed the button during init, and I think Bobof's behaves the same. Maybe they have improved this with V12, I'll try to do nothing next time and see if it detects it.
You are misreading me. I was only mentioning LCOS because that's the only technology I tried the i1d3 with. I am not ruling out that an i1pro2 or a Colormunki could improve things on a different technology, that's all. I tried three different i1d3, I rejected them all because of how bad they were in low light and their inability to read black, but they were very consistent and too close to the i1pro2 to know whether profiling them to it would make them more accurate or not, given that I have no idea how far away from reference my i1pro2 is to start with. I expect it to be accurate given the results I get with it, but I have no way to quantify its accuracy.
Again, the i1pro2 is not a reference meter, and neither is the Colormunki. Profiling a colorimeter to a non-reference spectro only makes sense if it's significantly off on a given technology, like my Discus, which I wouldn't be able to use on its own. Otherwise you're only making the meter closer to the spectro, but not necessarily closer to reference, depending on the direction of the errors of the respective meters.
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EVERYONE
I have very little time at the moment, so please forgive me if I stop replying to all the posts, it's taking too much of my time. I'll only reply to questions that are not already answered in the basic/advanced section or in the FAQ, and I won't reply to statements/comments, even if they are inaccurate/misleading. There are many knowledgeable people participating to this thread, so I'm sure they will brilliantly fill this gap. :)
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Was it always the case that you didn't need to press the button? With V11 my i1pro2 wasn't detected by the Autocal until I pressed the button during init, and I think Bobof's behaves the same. Maybe they have improved this with V12, I'll try to do nothing next time and see if it detects it.
I have not tried v12 actually.
v11 and also v10 that I used for an RS540 both did not need me to press the button at any time.
I actually have 2 different i1 Pro 2 with me at the moment and both work with autocal v11 without ever pressing the button.
I am not really sure why this would be, but it is.
I am using the 2006 driver from the X-Rite website:
https://www.xrite.com/service-support/downloads/i/i1drivers_32_64_bit_win2000_xp_vista (https://www.xrite.com/service-support/downloads/i/i1drivers_32_64_bit_win2000_xp_vista)
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I have not tried v12 actually.
v11 and also v10 that I used for an RS540 both did not need me to press the button at any time.
I actually have 2 different i1 Pro 2 with me at the moment and both work with autocal v11 without ever pressing the button.
I am not really sure why this would be, but it is.
I am using the 2006 driver from the X-Rite website:
https://www.xrite.com/service-support/downloads/i/i1drivers_32_64_bit_win2000_xp_vista (https://www.xrite.com/service-support/downloads/i/i1drivers_32_64_bit_win2000_xp_vista)
Thanks, it looks like windows is loading the 2009 driver for my i1pro2, that might be a reason.
I'll try this 2006 driver in my next session and I'll report back next month.
LeFric: it might be worth it to try this driver version, it might solve your issues if your current drivers is the 2009 version like mine.
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Thanks, it looks like windows is loading the 2009 driver for my i1pro2, that might be a reason.
I'll try this 2006 driver in my next session and I'll report back next month.
LeFric: it might be worth it to try this driver version, it might solve your issues if your current drivers is the 2009 version like mine.
Where do you even get a 2009 driver?
I heard it mentioned but I was not able to find it.
My Windows 10 needed me to install a driver to get the "eye-one" to work at all. I can see it as "eye-one" with no driver loaded though in device manager.
I also bounce back and forth between that driver from the X-Rite website which I have to use for autocal, and ArgyllCMS which I use for when I use my i1 Pro 2 with DisplayCAL and HCFR.
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Where do you even get a 2009 driver?
I heard it mentioned but I was not able to find it.
My Windows 10 needed me to install a driver to get the "eye-one" to work at all. I can see it as "eye-one" with no driver loaded though in device manager.
I also bounce back and forth between that driver from the X-Rite website which I have to use for autocal, and ArgyllCMS which I use for when I use my i1 Pro 2 with DisplayCAL and HCFR.
The 2009 driver was loaded by default, possibly because Calman or Lightspace installed/updated it, as they use the generic OS driver.
One of the reasons why I don't use DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS (the main one being that it doesn't support my Discus) is because I don't want to have to jungle between drivers every time I change software. The JVC Autocal, Calman and Lightspace all use the same OS driver, or don't ask me to uninstall it whenever I try to use them. Just too much hassle.
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The f/w for the Maestro with the Frame Adapt HDR picture mode added to the JVC Macro is available here https://www.hdfury.com/product/maestro/ (https://www.hdfury.com/product/maestro/). The f/w for the Vertex is available here (https://www.hdfury.com/product/4k-vertex2-18gbps/). Click on the download tab for both.
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Just managed to get an almost new EFI ES-2000, should be in begin next week.
So then I will have Spyder 5, Spyder X, I1 display Pro, Efi ES-2000, Colormunki Photo, DTP94 (x 2) ..... anything else ?
Oh yes wait there's also a Datacolor spectro #1005 on a shelf somewhere collecting dust :o
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Don't have the time to calibrate, but I tried the 2006 driver and the i1pro2 is detected after a few secs simply laying on the plate, no need to press the button.
@LeFric, you might want to try this.
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Thanks Manni,
That is what I will do.
BTW if I understand your previous DTM posts correctly its probably worth doing three Picture modes while I have all the equipment out. With User 3 being done in case the DTM algo is actually tone mapping to P3
User1 - SDR709 - Color Profile 709, 6500K, 2.4, low lamp, iris -6 (~60 nits)
User2 - HDR2020 - Color Profile BT2020, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0
User3 - HDR-P3 - Color Profile DCI, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0
Am I understanding your post correctly?
Thanks again
So how did this picture modes work out? I was gonna do User 1 to cover SDR (HD Xfinity broadcasts, regular blu rays), and User 2 (UHD Blu Rays/Netflix 4k streaming to use DTM.) Will both these profiles cover what I need?
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Yes, they will.
Specifically, I have already clarified that with autocal you are NOT calibrating the color mode; what really matters is the combination of lamp, iris and color filter (only in case of N7 and N9) and the color profile is not relevant. For this reason the 3rd calibration is not needed and would instead overwrite the 2nd one.
Also, 3rd mode can only be used if you have a video processor that outputs DCI color space. But even if used, it would benefit of the 2nd calibration.
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Can the Spyder5 Express be used with any version of AutoCAL that supports it?
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Can the Spyder5 Express be used with any version of AutoCAL that supports it?
Yes, only difference with the Pro and Elite is that the Spyder5 Express lacks the environment sensor.
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Because of the poor color calibration with my Spyder, I restored the INIT file and auto-calibrated gamma only (while waiting for a used i1 display pro).
After the calibration I compared color measures using ColorMunki and Spyder on a common field: HCFR.
With SpyderX I did measures using two calibration matrices: General and Standard Led
I also attached a picture of the gamut logged by Autocal software itself.
As you can see, General is pretty distant from ColorMunki (that I think is quite accurate). And the gamut read by Autocal is very similar to the results achieved with General. There is an evident problem with the green. Standard Led setting seems more similar to the ColorMunki though.
This test confirms IMHO the inaccuracy of SpyderX when used with the "General" matrix, apparently the one that Autocal is using.
On the other hand I measured the gamma and it is simply perfect! And the color uncalibrated is not that bad after 300h.
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Yes, only difference with the Pro and Elite is that the Spyder5 Express lacks the environment sensor.
The lack of environmental sensor is in the Spyder software not hardware. All three meters are identical in hardware. We tested an Express bought meter on a Mac that had the Elite software installed and it activated the sensor with no issues. That is why you can upgrade an Express bought meter to the Elite by just upgrading the software (key). And the best part is this...the software is also identical and just the features are "unlocked" when you purchase the upgrade "key".
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The lack of environmental sensor is in the Spyder software not hardware. All three meters are identical in hardware. We tested an Express bought meter on a Mac that had the Elite software installed and it activated the sensor with no issues. That is why you can upgrade an Express bought meter to the Elite by just upgrading the software (key). And the best part is this...the software is also identical and just the features are "unlocked" when you purchase the upgrade "key".
Really?! I didn't know that. So does it work with the JVC software without any specific license?
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Really?! I didn't know that. So does it work with the JVC software without any specific license?
In theory it should. Autocal is using the driver that is the same on all three models so it should work. I never understood why Datacolor used the same driver and same software for all three models and used the key method to unlock features. This method also lends to easier hacking/cracking.
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The lack of environmental sensor is in the Spyder software not hardware. All three meters are identical in hardware. We tested an Express bought meter on a Mac that had the Elite software installed and it activated the sensor with no issues. That is why you can upgrade an Express bought meter to the Elite by just upgrading the software (key). And the best part is this...the software is also identical and just the features are "unlocked" when you purchase the upgrade "key".
Very interesting, not having the express myself I did not realize that it's only the software that can unlock the environment capability.
Anybody tried the Autocal environment option with a true Spyder 5 Express puck ? What about the driver ?
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Very interesting, not having the express myself I did not realize that it's only the software that can unlock the environment capability.
Anybody tried the Autocal environment option with a true Spyder 5 Express puck ? What about the driver ?
Haven't tried it with Autocal since I have the Pro version, but in my old office we proved that the drivers are exactly the same for all three. They were interchangeable. And we even used Express meters on Macs that only had the Elite software installed. We began to buy Express meters used on ebay and then just paying for the upgrades to Elite (basically just a key) and we stocked our entire editing room for same price we would have paid for half of the meters. Granted it would have been a bit cheaper but we got one real bad Express meter so we had to replace it.
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I am still puzzled as I read several times that the environment option of Autocal does not work with the spyder 5 express, if the puck and the driver are really the same then that should not be true, Autocal should be able to work totally. The unlocking can only be valid within the Datacolor software.
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I am still puzzled as I read several times that the environment option of Autocal does not work with the spyder 5 express, if the puck and the driver are really the same then that should not be true, Autocal should be able to work totally. The unlocking can only be valid within the Datacolor software.
Like I said, in theory...using Datacolor software there is no difference between the three in hardware or driver. It is only software. I have never been able to verify it since I kept my Pro version and had that installed. Now, maybe when you install the Datacolor software to install the driver there is a lock enabled to that feature. The only way to verify it would be to test it with a PC using Autocal after you installed a Pro/Elite version and then plugging in an Express meter. And then testing a different PC that only installed an Express meter and then plugging in a Pro/Elite meter and see if the feature is shut-down. If it works with an Express on a Pro/Elite install then there is no lock. But if the Pro/Elite does NOT work on an Express install then there is a driver/software lock at the time of install.
All I know is that on a PC/Mac when using only the Datacolor software the only difference is the key at the time of install or the key used at the time you upgrade up. We used more than a dozen Express meters on Elite keys when we upgraded them.
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No comment on my above post? https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14484#msg14484
Nobody is using SpyderX? Have you had different experiences? Can you please post your logs?
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I read through a bunch here, but not everything so I apologize. The questions I have are:
1. Gamma is tied to lamp/filter but I have an RS1000 with no filter. So I need exactly two gamma calibrations. One with Low lamp and one with High lamp. Correct?
2. If I do a spyderx pro calibration for color can I tell from looking at the results before I save if it is any good? Like a major gaff on the chart or something that is obvious?
3. The quote from the doc mentioned by others seems to indicate that frame adapt will be affected by calibration, you just have to use a different picture mode with matching lamp/filter for gamma. Is that still the current belief?
4. Other than the subjective visual, is there any definitive way to tell if a given menu selection is picking up my calibrated settings?
thanks!
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I read through a bunch here, but not everything so I apologize. The questions I have are:
1. Gamma is tied to lamp/filter but I have an RS1000 with no filter. So I need exactly two gamma calibrations. One with Low lamp and one with High lamp. Correct?
2. If I do a spyderx pro calibration for color can I tell from looking at the results before I save if it is any good? Like a major gaff on the chart or something that is obvious?
3. The quote from the doc mentioned by others seems to indicate that frame adapt will be affected by calibration, you just have to use a different picture mode with matching lamp/filter for gamma. Is that still the current belief?
4. Other than the subjective visual, is there any definitive way to tell if a given menu selection is picking up my calibrated settings?
thanks!
1. Correct
2. Not easy. If you own a reliable meter, you could check the gamut before and see if gamut shown after autocal is indicating a similar status. In my case I see a very bad green after autocal that is not reflecting what I get with ColorMunki and i1d3 so I know that it is wrong.
3. it is the official voice and we didn’t find elements that contradict it
4. Unfortunately not
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1. Correct
2. Not easy. If you own a reliable meter, you could check the gamut before and see if gamut shown after autocal is indicating a similar status. In my case I see a very bad green after autocal that is not reflecting what I get with ColorMunki and i1d3 so I know that it is wrong.
3. it is the official voice and we didn’t find elements that contradict it
4. Unfortunately not
Thanks!
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I haven't tried the spyderx color calibration yet, but I notice there are datacolor instructions for using their software with a projector. I'm thinking these could be important even with the jvc software for getting a good reading. See below. So gamma 2.2, brightness max, iris wide open. I think white balance 6500k or maybe some other setting. Comments?
steve
- Launch the Spyder5ELITE or even the Spyder5ELITE+ software and select “Projector” via the “Display Type” menu.
- In the Calibration Settings window select Gamma 2.2, native White Point (Do Not Adjust – Recommended) and for the Brightness also “Do Not Adjust – Recommended”.
Alternatively you can also select a White Point of 6500 Kelvin, but be aware that this will reduce your front projector’s brightness, because one or two color channels will be clipped after the white point correction. - In the “Advanced Settings” select the Gray Balance Calibration “Off – Recommended”, which is required for front projectors that uses the DLP technology. On front projectors that using a different technology you can also select the option “Faster”.
- Mount your Spyder5ELITE at your tripod and place the sensor at a distance of 30 cm / 12 inches in front of the screen. The senor’s honeycomb filter has to face towards the screen. The Spyder5ELITE software compensates the shadow the Spyder5ELITE create now on the screen.
- Keep your room pitch dark during the calibration process to get the best results.
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I haven't tried the spyderx color calibration yet, but I notice there are datacolor instructions for using their software with a projector. I'm thinking these could be important even with the jvc software for getting a good reading. See below. So gamma 2.2, brightness max, iris wide open. I think white balance 6500k or maybe some other setting. Comments?
steve
- Launch the Spyder5ELITE or even the Spyder5ELITE+ software and select “Projector” via the “Display Type” menu.
- In the Calibration Settings window select Gamma 2.2, native White Point (Do Not Adjust – Recommended) and for the Brightness also “Do Not Adjust – Recommended”.
Alternatively you can also select a White Point of 6500 Kelvin, but be aware that this will reduce your front projector’s brightness, because one or two color channels will be clipped after the white point correction. - In the “Advanced Settings” select the Gray Balance Calibration “Off – Recommended”, which is required for front projectors that uses the DLP technology. On front projectors that using a different technology you can also select the option “Faster”.
- Mount your Spyder5ELITE at your tripod and place the sensor at a distance of 30 cm / 12 inches in front of the screen. The senor’s honeycomb filter has to face towards the screen. The Spyder5ELITE software compensates the shadow the Spyder5ELITE create now on the screen.
- Keep your room pitch dark during the calibration process to get the best results.
This will fall on deaf's ears but I will try this anyways...
Never ever calibrate your projector for movie/tv viewing with the Datacolor software. Their calibration is for graphics/video (photo and NLE video editing) on applications that use ICC profiles. If you do you will never get proper color calibrations using AutoCal or any other calibration tools that we use for movie/tv viewing. ICC is a nightmare to deal with once you get it in your system. They usually deal with sRGB and AdobeRGB. Even if Datacolor claims they can calibrate to BT709, DCI-P3 or BT2020, they still deal with ICC profiles.
Their calibration is basically done at the OS level, not the display level. If you change the ICC profile you will now affect any display level calibration no matter what they (Datacolor) tell you that it won't.
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This will fall on deaf's ears but I will try this anyways...
Never ever calibrate your projector for movie/tv viewing with the Datacolor software. Their calibration is for graphics/video (photo and NLE video editing) on applications that use ICC profiles. If you do you will never get proper color calibrations using AutoCal or any other calibration tools that we use for movie/tv viewing. ICC is a nightmare to deal with once you get it in your system. They usually deal with sRGB and AdobeRGB. Even if Datacolor claims they can calibrate to BT709, DCI-P3 or BT2020, they still deal with ICC profiles.
Their calibration is basically done at the OS level, not the display level. If you change the ICC profile you will now affect any display level calibration no matter what they (Datacolor) tell you that it won't.
Ha, well this may fall on blind eyes but I asked about using their recommended settings with the jvc software :-). Any thoughts on that? The tool is obviously used for color calibration and I'm thinking maybe we are just lacking the right settings for it to get a good reading.
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Ha, well this may fall on blind eyes but I asked about using their recommended settings with the jvc software :-). Any thoughts on that? The tool is obviously used for color calibration and I'm thinking maybe we are just lacking the right settings for it to get a good reading.
There is nothing you can do to improve the Spyder5/X color measurements on AutoCal. That is just the nature of the Spyder hardware.
You don't have to do anything in their software for Gamma calibration on AutoCal. As a matter of fact, I believe the recommended steps is to never launch the Datacolor software, and maybe even uninstall it after the driver gets loaded.
Their software is actually incredible good at creating ICC profiles. But not for display level calibration.
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I read through a bunch here, but not everything so I apologize. The questions I have are:
1. Gamma is tied to lamp/filter but I have an RS1000 with no filter. So I need exactly two gamma calibrations. One with Low lamp and one with High lamp. Correct?
2. If I do a spyderx pro calibration for color can I tell from looking at the results before I save if it is any good? Like a major gaff on the chart or something that is obvious?
3. The quote from the doc mentioned by others seems to indicate that frame adapt will be affected by calibration, you just have to use a different picture mode with matching lamp/filter for gamma. Is that still the current belief?
4. Other than the subjective visual, is there any definitive way to tell if a given menu selection is picking up my calibrated settings?
thanks!
This brings to me different questions:
1.- Then, why is the screen previous to calibration asking for Picture Mode and Color Profile and Color Temp? (see image attached). As far as I understand the gamma result (and color if you calibrate color as well) will be used independently of this selection.
2.- I read from Mani instructions that Iris was taken into account in steps of 4. Will calibration for Iris -4, will be applied when choosing Iris 0? And -5?
3.- Even you choose in the previous screen to calibrate Picture Mode “HDR10” and Color Profile “HDR” there is no real calibration for HDR. This will affect SDR modes as long as you use same Iris range and lamp. Correct?
4.- But then the other way around, If when I calibrate gamma for low, -4, BT709(no filter), it is as well being used when I choose HDR10 or frame adaptative as far as I use same lamp, iris and no filter, how a gamma 2.2 calibration can be used in a proper way by an HDR EOTF curve? It is different target and curve and HDR needs specific gamma calibration different from SDR. I do not want my SDR calibration is taken in consideration when using HDR.
5. And finally, why frame adaptative is affected by any other gamma calibration? It is supposed the projector is taking tone mapping decisions for each frame.
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This brings to me different questions:
1.- Then, why is the screen previous to calibration asking for Picture Mode and Color Profile and Color Temp? (see image attached). As far as I understand the gamma result (and color if you calibrate color as well) will be used independently of this selection.
2.- I read from Mani instructions that Iris was taken into account in steps of 4. Will calibration for Iris -4, will be applied when choosing Iris 0? And -5?
3.- Even you choose in the previous screen to calibrate Picture Mode “HDR10” and Color Profile “HDR” there is no real calibration for HDR. This will affect SDR modes as long as you use same Iris range and lamp. Correct?
4.- But then the other way around, If when I calibrate gamma for low, -4, BT709(no filter), it is as well being used when I choose HDR10 or frame adaptative as far as I use same lamp, iris and no filter, how a gamma 2.2 calibration can be used in a proper way by an HDR EOTF curve? It is different target and curve and HDR needs specific gamma calibration different from SDR. I do not want my SDR calibration is taken in consideration when using HDR.
5. And finally, why frame adaptative is affected by any other gamma calibration? It is supposed the projector is taking tone mapping decisions for each frame.
1. It's not asking you to specify picture mode, color profile and color temp. It is telling you what the current picture mode is, and which parameters it is using. This is so you can, if you wish, either select a different picture mode to calibrate from the Autocal (you can't/shouldn't use the remote once you're running the Autocal software), or change some of the settings before calibration if you want, in which case these settings will still be active after you leave the autocal.
2. Unless ranges have changed (always a possibility), -4 should use the same range as -5, not 0. The ranges are/were 0 to -3, -4 to -7, -8 to -11, -12 to -15. TBC. As I said many times, it is better to calibrate the iris setting that you are actutally using, irrespective of the range, as even within the same range there are some variations. Then if you want to be able to change the iris setting without recalibrating, do a color for the other ranges you care about. I personally only do the iris setting I'm currently using, and only run another color calibration when I have to open the iris due to brightness reducing.
3. Correct for gamma calibration, as long as you use the same lamp and filter combination. Correct for color calibration as long as you use the same iris range, lamp and filter calibration. Usually at least the iris range is different for between SDR and HDR, but I guess that if your screen is too large and you only have 50nits or less in HDR, you have to use the same settings for SDR too.
4. When you do a gamma calibration, it calibrates all the gamma curves for the same lamp and filter settings. This is done mathematically. All gamma curves, whether power or PQ. So it doesn't matter whether you're calibrating an SDR or HDR picture mode. This is also why it's recommended to run gamma autocal with the iris fully open at gamma 2.2. This will help to calibrate near black more accurately, and will make the log graphs more readable (if it follows the straight line, the calibration went well according to the Spyder).
5. The reason why the frame adapt mode can't be calibrating is precisely because it will adapt depending on each pattern. It's the same as using the dynamic iris. It's not possible because it would impact the calibration. So as long as you calibrate a picture mode that uses the same gamma, filter and iris range, it should be calibrated. One user reported this not working, so I suggested trying if selecting BT2020 vs P3 would make a difference, but really there is no reason for that, in theory. Until a user reports whether it makes a difference, or whether their problem is solved or not, sticking to the theory is safest. Personally I had no problem getting frame adapt calibrated, but I do calibrate both an SDR BT2020 and an SDR P3 mode, so not sure if that played a part or not (it shouldn't as the filter mode is the same and autocal isn't supposed to make a difference).
I'm hoping to be able to do more tests with the Spyder X by the end of next week. I'll report back then.
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1. It's not asking you to specify picture mode, color profile and color temp. It is telling you what the current picture mode is, and which parameters it is using. This is so you can, if you wish, either select a different picture mode to calibrate from the Autocal (you can't/shouldn't use the remote once you're running the Autocal software), or change some of the settings before calibration if you want, in which case these settings will still be active after you leave the autocal.
2. Unless ranges have changed (always a possibility), -4 should use the same range as -5, not 0. The ranges are/were 0 to -3, -4 to -7, -8 to -11, -12 to -15. TBC. As I said many times, it is better to calibrate the iris setting that you are actutally using, irrespective of the range, as even within the same range there are some variations. Then if you want to be able to change the iris setting without recalibrating, do a color for the other ranges you care about. I personally only do the iris setting I'm currently using, and only run another color calibration when I have to open the iris due to brightness reducing.
3. Correct for gamma calibration, as long as you use the same lamp and filter combination. Correct for color calibration as long as you use the same iris range, lamp and filter calibration. Usually at least the iris range is different for between SDR and HDR, but I guess that if your screen is too large and you only have 50nits or less in HDR, you have to use the same settings for SDR too.
4. When you do a gamma calibration, it calibrates all the gamma curves for the same lamp and filter settings. This is done mathematically. All gamma curves, whether power or PQ. So it doesn't matter whether you're calibrating an SDR or HDR picture mode. This is also why it's recommended to run gamma autocal with the iris fully open at gamma 2.2. This will help to calibrate near black more accurately, and will make the log graphs more readable (if it follows the straight line, the calibration went well according to the Spyder).
5. The reason why the frame adapt mode can't be calibrating is precisely because it will adapt depending on each pattern. It's the same as using the dynamic iris. It's not possible because it would impact the calibration. So as long as you calibrate a picture mode that uses the same gamma, filter and iris range, it should be calibrated. One user reported this not working, so I suggested trying if selecting BT2020 vs P3 would make a difference, but really there is no reason for that, in theory. Until a user reports whether it makes a difference, or whether their problem is solved or not, sticking to the theory is safest. Personally I had no problem getting frame adapt calibrated, but I do calibrate both an SDR BT2020 and an SDR P3 mode, so not sure if that played a part or not (it shouldn't as the filter mode is the same and autocal isn't supposed to make a difference).
I'm hoping to be able to do more tests with the Spyder X by the end of next week. I'll report back then.
Many thanks for the clarifications Mani!!
I still have some doubts reading your answers:
1.- In one paragraph you say “it is better to calibrate the iris setting that you are actually using”. In another “This is also why it's recommended to run gamma autocal with the iris fully open at gamma 2.2”. It is not clear to me if set the iris to -4 (my iris setting for SDR) or to 0 to calibrate gamma. I am only doing gamma autocalibration as Color is biased using spyderX and prefer to calibrate it manually with my i1d3.
2. The backup file saved after each calibration is incremental or only contains the last calibration? I mean I have now the Init file and the file created after my calibration for SDR -4, low, no filter. If I make a new calibration 0,low, filter for HDR, the new backup file will contain both or just the last one?
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Many thanks for the clarifications Mani!!
I still have some doubts reading your answers:
1.- In one paragraph you say “it is better to calibrate the iris setting that you are actually using”. In another “This is also why it's recommended to run gamma autocal with the iris fully open at gamma 2.2”. It is not clear to me if set the iris to -4 (my iris setting for SDR) or to 0 to calibrate gamma. I am only doing gamma autocalibration as Color is biased using spyderX and prefer to calibrate it manually with my i1d3.
2. The backup file saved after each calibration is incremental or only contains the last calibration? I mean I have now the Init file and the file created after my calibration for SDR -4, low, no filter. If I make a new calibration 0,low, filter for HDR, the new backup file will contain both or just the last one?
1. If you only do a gamma calibration, you can try running it at -4 (your usual setting) and check if you get any 0 reading in the log. If you do, run the gamma autocal again with the iris at zero (fully open). Iris fully open is usually the safest/optimal setting for a gamma calibration, as it helps with low light readings, especially with a 33-step calibration. My advice to make sure your actual iris setting is calibrated was regarding color calibration, as it doesn't matter for gamma and some do many color calibrations to calibrate all the iris ranges. All this is explained in the basic section. Please re-read it if necessary.
2. This was discussed recently (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14385#msg14385). I've added a link to this post to the FAQ.
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Because of the poor color calibration with my Spyder, I restored the INIT file and auto-calibrated gamma only (while waiting for a used i1 display pro).
After the calibration I compared color measures using ColorMunki and Spyder on a common field: HCFR.
With SpyderX I did measures using two calibration matrices: General and Standard Led
I also attached a picture of the gamut logged by Autocal software itself.
As you can see, General is pretty distant from ColorMunki (that I think is quite accurate). And the gamut read by Autocal is very similar to the results achieved with General. There is an evident problem with the green. Standard Led setting seems more similar to the ColorMunki though.
This test confirms IMHO the inaccuracy of SpyderX when used with the "General" matrix, apparently the one that Autocal is using.
On the other hand I measured the gamma and it is simply perfect! And the color uncalibrated is not that bad after 300h.
I bought a used i1pro 2! I tried performing an Autocalibration with very good results (PFA). As expected, the green was not bad as with SpyderX and apparently only a correction to the red has been applied. I checked the results with Calman using my i1d3 profiled and I can confirm the correct calibration. I think now we can say that SpyderX is not reading correctly the colors (especially green) and this is causing bad calibration. I still believe it is a matter of configuration, because I got acceptable results in HCFR with the right calibration matrix (standard led).
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Hi Manni,
Using my i1 pro 2 in Autocal I can't have the meter within the orange rectangle. Can you? Is that a problem? Since I can't get the VPR closer to the screen, as the message suggest, do you recommend to shrink the screen as much as I can? I noticed that results are good, even though Gray 12.5% is a little far from the reference, maybe because of the low luminance?
Also, the manual suggest a distance of 30cm/1 for the SpyderX. What about the i1 pro?
Thanks in advance
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Hi Manni,
I’m not asking this in the MadVR HDR to SD forum as its off topic there. However, I want to make sure I’m calibrating my JVC properly for HDR-SD content. Can you help confirm?
- When calibrating for JVC picture mode “Bt2020 (w/filter)” with Calman. What color space target do you use? “Bt.2020 SDR” or “D65, P3”?
- When you’re calibrating for JVC picture mode “HDR (no filter)” with calman. What colorspace do you use - “D65,P3”?
- What gamma formula in Calman for both? Power 2.2.
- My PC is set to RGB full. Are you using luminance level “PC (0-255) in Calman.
Lastly, I calibrated Bt2020 w/filter JVC picture mode with D65,P3. I then chose “DCI-P3” in MadVR for “this display is calibrated to”.
I know this is really basic stuff, but I don’t find HDR colorspace calibrating very straight forward.
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Hi Manni,
I’m not asking this in the MadVR HDR to SD forum as its off topic there. However, I want to make sure I’m calibrating my JVC properly for HDR-SD content. Can you help confirm?
- When calibrating for JVC picture mode “Bt2020 (w/filter)” with Calman. What color space target do you use? “Bt.2020 SDR” or “D65, P3”?
- When you’re calibrating for JVC picture mode “HDR (no filter)” with calman. What colorspace do you use - “D65,P3”?
- What gamma formula in Calman for both? Power 2.2.
- My PC is set to RGB full. Are you using luminance level “PC (0-255) in Calman.
Lastly, I calibrated Bt2020 w/filter JVC picture mode with D65,P3. I then chose “DCI-P3” in MadVR for “this display is calibrated to”.
I know this is really basic stuff, but I don’t find HDR colorspace calibrating very straight forward.
For madVR pixel shader tonemapping, you don't calibrate to HDR, you calibrate to SDR, so select a USER picture mode, not one of the HDR picture modes (BT2020, HDR) as these will use PQ, not power gamma by default, and you want to keep them that way.
Re levels, it depends on the OS version, driver version, GPU, bit depth, it's just impossible to tell you the right combination. Calman should be left to video levels (16-235) as this is what madVR expects. With my 1080ti in Win 10 x64 Pro build 1909 with latest nVidia in 8bits 4:4:4 I use GPU 0-255, madVR 16-235 and JVC 16-235 (standard). Gives the right video levels, but not for game or desktop use.
If you're not using a 3D LUT, it doesn't matter if you use BT2020 or P3, as long as saturations are tracking properly as far as the gamut go. Assuming you're not using a 3D LUT, I would select in the JVC and in Calman:
BT2020, P65, Gamma 2.4 and make sure in Calman that the PJ is tracking well with these targets. Your BT2020 cover will look under saturated, but as long as the saturations track, you'll be good to go. If you want your gamut graphs to look nicer, you can measure P3 within BT2020, there are some layouts that do that. This shows how P3 content measures within the BT2020 container.
In madVR's calibration tab, simply provide the settings you've used when calibrating/checking with Calman, in this case already "calibrated for" BT2020, D65, 2.4. The advantage of doing it this way is that you can use the same calibration with a consumer source, such as a Pana UB UHD player tonemapping to SDR BT2020.
If you use a 3D LUT when tonemapping HDR to SDR with madVR, it gets more complicated because you have to use a gamma target of 2.2 to create the 3D LUT. Also, it's recommended to use P3 rather than BT2020 to limit the risk of posterization. In that case, you need to create an SDR P3 USER mode with P3, D65, Gamma 2.2 (preferably, it can be anything) and a target gamma of 2.2 when generating the P3 3D LUT in Calman.
Either way, don't use the CMS for more than a few clicks, especially for saturation. It's not working, especially if you target 100% of your gamut. You have to find a gamut target that gives you the best average saturation tracking, but usually using the CMS will make things worse, not better. If you need any significant correction gamut wise, you need to use the JVC Autocal.
madVR calibration or Calman use is also off topic in this thread, so feel free to ask if you have any Autocal related questions, otherwise keep it simple for madVR, as suggested above.
There is a white paper on Spectracal/Portrait display's website on madVR calibration (https://app.spectracal.com/Documents/QSGs/madVR 3D LUT Calibration QuickStart.pdf), I don't know how accurate or up to date it is but it's worth looking at it. You can also PM @LovingDVD on AVS, he's been through calibrating with Calman for madVR recently and he might be able to help. There are also a few tips in my mini-review linked in the second post. I'm sorry but I don't have the time at the moment to help more. I will try to create a thread for calibrating with madVR when it gets out of beta, but too many things are changing at the moment to do this without it being a timesuck.
Good luck!
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Hi Manni,
Using my i1 pro 2 in Autocal I can't have the meter within the orange rectangle. Can you? Is that a problem? Since I can't get the VPR closer to the screen, as the message suggest, do you recommend to shrink the screen as much as I can? I noticed that results are good, even though Gray 12.5% is a little far from the reference, maybe because of the low luminance?
Also, the manual suggest a distance of 30cm/1 for the SpyderX. What about the i1 pro?
Thanks in advance
Hi Manni, can you please be so kind to respond to my question?
thanks.
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Hi Manni,
Using my i1 pro 2 in Autocal I can't have the meter within the orange rectangle. Can you? Is that a problem? Since I can't get the VPR closer to the screen, as the message suggest, do you recommend to shrink the screen as much as I can? I noticed that results are good, even though Gray 12.5% is a little far from the reference, maybe because of the low luminance?
Also, the manual suggest a distance of 30cm/1 for the SpyderX. What about the i1 pro?
Thanks in advance
Not Manni (obviously), but I've asked him the same question before. His recommendation is to shrink the image down just like what you've done.
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I had this exact problem last night as well. I got the gamma corrected (just about 500 hours on the projector and it was looking a bit flat), but when I went to calibrate the color with my old Eye 1 Pro, I couldn't get the meter inside of the box. Granted, colors look pretty good so I'm not stressing too much. I'll give it another go tonight and see if I can get it to work.
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I bought a used i1pro 2! I tried performing an Autocalibration with very good results (PFA). As expected, the green was not bad as with SpyderX and apparently only a correction to the red has been applied. I checked the results with Calman using my i1d3 profiled and I can confirm the correct calibration. I think now we can say that SpyderX is not reading correctly the colors (especially green) and this is causing bad calibration. I still believe it is a matter of configuration, because I got acceptable results in HCFR with the right calibration matrix (standard led).
This is what I got doing a BT 709 calibration (gamma and color) with the SpyderX. low lamp, -4. Don't have another meter to check accuracy, but picture looks good.
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Hello all, Im using a ipro 2 for color calibration and a spyder x for gamma. After calibrations for SDR 709 and HDR bt2020, everything looks great when I check the calibration results with my id3 pro/chromapure.
My issue is Im losing some brightness post calibration. For example, for HDR pre calibration Im at 28FL. Post HDR calibration, I drop down to 24FL. Picture still looks great, but I wasnt sure if this loss of brightness was normal and to be expected or if I might have done something incorrect to cause it.
I could never get the i pro 2 into the orange box during color calibration, so I left it about 2 ft from the screen. Could this have caused my issue? Or is it more likely that its the spyder X causing it?
Any advice? Thank you!
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This is what I got doing a BT 709 calibration (gamma and color) with the SpyderX. low lamp, -4. Don't have another meter to check accuracy, but picture looks good.
Hi,
I did recently the same with the SpyderX, -4, gamma and color autocal. Checking after with my i1d3, gamma was perfect but color was pretty bad with delta >5 in all colors. So I rolled back to my init state and made only gamma autocalibration. After that I did color calibration manually with the 1d3.
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I had this exact problem last night as well. I got the gamma corrected (just about 500 hours on the projector and it was looking a bit flat), but when I went to calibrate the color with my old Eye 1 Pro, I couldn't get the meter inside of the box. Granted, colors look pretty good so I'm not stressing too much. I'll give it another go tonight and see if I can get it to work.
Super busy at the moment but I thought I'd take a minute as a few people asked about this recently.
I didn't reply about this because it's all in the basic section, preparation, meter(s) connection and positioning :)
The ipro never shows in the box, so don't waste time trying to make it fit.
- When positioning the meter, you want the meter icon on screen to be within the positioning box. For the Spyder 5, facing the PJ lens, this means that it should be to the right of the positioning box, in order to maximise dark readings. For the i1pro2 facing the screen, this means that it should be to the left of the positioning box. Personally, I wasn't able to achieve this with the i1pro2 so I suspect a bug. I therefore suggest you position the i1pro2 at your usual distance. For me, that's 2-3 feet from the screen when using full patterns (see pictures and advanced tips below).
@EVERYONE
Once more, if I don't answer a question, please look in the second post for a relevant link or in the FAQ, and re-read the relevant part in the basic section. The answer is usually there. :)
Of course, some don't mind replying to the same questions over and over again, and I thank them for their time.
But I'm more in the school of "teach someone to fish" than "give someone a fish"...
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Super busy at the moment but I thought I'd take a minute as a few people asked about this recently.
I didn't reply about this because it's all in the basic section, preparation, meter(s) connection and positioning :)
The ipro never shows in the box, so don't waste time trying to make it fit.
- When positioning the meter, you want the meter icon on screen to be within the positioning box. For the Spyder 5, facing the PJ lens, this means that it should be to the right of the positioning box, in order to maximise dark readings. For the i1pro2 facing the screen, this means that it should be to the left of the positioning box. Personally, I wasn't able to achieve this with the i1pro2 so I suspect a bug. I therefore suggest you position the i1pro2 at your usual distance. For me, that's 2-3 feet from the screen when using full patterns (see pictures and advanced tips below).
@EVERYONE
Once more, if I don't answer a question, please look in the second post for a relevant link or in the FAQ, and re-read the relevant part in the basic section. The answer is usually there. :)
Of course, some don't mind replying to the same questions over and over again, and I thank them for their time.
But I'm more in the school of "teach someone to fish" than "give someone a fish"...
I read that part of the FAQ but it sounded a little ambiguous to me.
When you say:
For the i1pro2 facing the screen, this means that it should be to the left of the positioning box. Personally, I wasn't able to achieve this with the i1pro2 so I suspect a bug.
I took it literally, so I thought you were meaning you weren't able to have the i1pro2 to the left of the box. You meant instead that you weren't able to have it within the box... subtle but important difference :)
That's why I asked here. Thanks for clarifying.
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This is what I got doing a BT 709 calibration (gamma and color) with the SpyderX. low lamp, -4. Don't have another meter to check accuracy, but picture looks good.
As you can see, you are affected by the same inaccuracy on green. I'm pretty sure that your green is not that far from the reference. And trying to fix it, your Autocal is reducing the overall luminance (and making the green worse). Haven't you noticed a reduced luminance? Once I reset and calibrated color again using the i1 pro 2, I realized that the green was much better, as I was supposing. See my previous posts. I had the exact same behavior shown by you. And see what i1 pro 2 reported instead.
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What is the exact model number for the i1pro 2 that is needed? I was looking at X-rite’s web site and there are so many variations and I’m not sure which one is needed.
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What is the exact model number for the i1pro 2 that is needed? I was looking at X-rite’s web site and there are so many variations and I’m not sure which one is needed.
As usual the basic model is fine, since the hardware is the same and we are not going to use the software included. I bought this one: https://www.xrite.com/categories/calibration-profiling/i1basic-pro-2 (https://www.xrite.com/categories/calibration-profiling/i1basic-pro-2)
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I tried the 2006 driver and it remains the same ...
I asked for a budget to repair the i1Pro2 with the surprise that they asked me ¡¡¡¡¡ 570€ !!!!! (We are crazy?); anyway...!!!!!
I have chosen to buy another i1Pro2 knowing that we already have the i1Pro3.
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As usual the basic model is fine, since the hardware is the same and we are not going to use the software included. I bought this one: https://www.xrite.com/categories/calibration-profiling/i1basic-pro-2 (https://www.xrite.com/categories/calibration-profiling/i1basic-pro-2)
I see, thanks.
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I tried the 2006 driver and it remains the same ...
I asked for a budget to repair the i1Pro2 with the surprise that they asked me ¡¡¡¡¡ 570€ !!!!! (We are crazy?); anyway...!!!!!
I have chosen to buy another i1Pro2 knowing that we already have the i1Pro3.
Are you sure that it can be used with Autocal?
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Hello all, Im using a ipro 2 for color calibration and a spyder x for gamma. After calibrations for SDR 709 and HDR bt2020, everything looks great when I check the calibration results with my id3 pro/chromapure.
My issue is Im losing some brightness post calibration. For example, for HDR pre calibration Im at 28FL. Post HDR calibration, I drop down to 24FL. Picture still looks great, but I wasnt sure if this loss of brightness was normal and to be expected or if I might have done something incorrect to cause it.
I could never get the i pro 2 into the orange box during color calibration, so I left it about 2 ft from the screen. Could this have caused my issue? Or is it more likely that its the spyder X causing it?
Any advice? Thank you!
I don't think the light loss is normal. I did an autocal on a NX5 and NX7 with Spyder5 / i1 Pro 2 combo and both times it slightly increased brightness post calibration.
The gamma cal shouldn't affect the brightness since gamma doesn't affect 100% white which is what you just to measure the brightness.
The color cal is what can affect brightness, but with an i1 Pro 2 I have olny seen it slightly raise brightness after cal.
Have you calculated your lumens? The NX5 and NX7 I autocal were about 1600 lumens after autocal in high bulb full open iris and close throw.
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I wasn't able to get my I1 Pro to work the other night because I ran out of time, but one question to anyone who has used it to calibrate color. How and when did you do a dark reading on it? In Calman, it's part of the setup process. Is it the same in the JVC programming?
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I wasn't able to get my I1 Pro to work the other night because I ran out of time, but one question to anyone who has used it to calibrate color. How and when did you do a dark reading on it? In Calman, it's part of the setup process. Is it the same in the JVC programming?
With the 2006 driver, I was able to leave it on its tile and it’s detected automatically when you select it, though it takes some time. With the 2009 driver, I had to press the button to do a dark calibration during detection. I might have not let it for long enough though. I’ll do more tests when I come back. We’ve discussed this just a few pages back.
This is also discussed in the basic section (though not the driver difference).
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With the 2006 driver, I was able to leave it on its tile and it’s detected automatically when you select it, though it takes some time. With the 2009 driver, I had to press the button to do a dark calibration during detection. I might have not let it for long enough though. I’ll do more tests when I come back. We’ve discussed this just a few pages back.
This is also discussed in the basic section (though not the driver difference).
Thanks Manni. I'll do a search. Are there any links to the different drivers? I'm not which one I'm using.
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Thanks Manni. I'll do a search. Are there any links to the different drivers? I'm not which one I'm using.
2009 driver is coming with Windows. If you download it from X-Rite official site, you got the 2006 one:
https://www.xrite.com/service-support/downloads/i/i1drivers_32_64_bit_win2000_xp_vista
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2009 driver is coming with Windows. If you download it from X-Rite official site, you got the 2006 one:
https://www.xrite.com/service-support/downloads/i/i1drivers_32_64_bit_win2000_xp_vista
Which driver do you recommend?
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I'm using the 2006 driver because:
- Manni reported it doesn't require to press the initialization button
- There was the suspect that the relatively new 2009 driver was leading to an inaccurate calibration
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I'm using the 2006 driver because:
- Manni reported it doesn't require to press the initialization button
- There was the suspect that the relatively new 2009 driver was leading to an inaccurate calibration
Are you sure? I am using EFI2000 - I saw that with 2009 driver isn't necessary to put every time the meter on the calibration plate, if don't exit from the calibration page (similar at the timed operational in Calman). Instead with the 2006 Driver each calibration needs a reinitialization step. Someone could try? Of course, a different consideration must to be done if the calibration with 2009 driver is inaccurate.
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Are you sure? I am using EFI2000 - I saw that with 2009 driver isn't necessary to put every time the meter on the calibration plate, if don't exit from the calibration page (similar at the timed operational in Calman). Instead with the 2006 Driver each calibration needs a reinitialization step. Someone could try? Of course, a different consideration must to be done if the calibration with 2009 driver is inaccurate.
What I can tell you is that with my i1 pro 2 and 2006 driver I don’t have to initialize at any session. Just after several minutes.
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Quick question about the EFI ES-2000 ( still waiting for it ) it seems that it is not delivered with an attachment to a photo tripod (as opposed to the xrite I1 pro2), if true how do you attach it ?
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Quick question about the EFI ES-2000 ( still waiting for it ) it seems that it is not delivered with an attachment to a photo tripod (as opposed to the xrite I1 pro2), if true how do you attach it ?
You can use the black neutral plate support included in the box and fix it to a tripod with electrical plastic clamp, it is very easy.
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Quick question about the EFI ES-2000 ( still waiting for it ) it seems that it is not delivered with an attachment to a photo tripod (as opposed to the xrite I1 pro2), if true how do you attach it ?
I ended up buying this for my EFI ES-2000, though you might want to find a slightly larger one. That one works but just barely due to the size of the meter.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072KNBV21/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072KNBV21/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
I can also confirm that the meter shows up as an i1Pro2 in ChromaPure. I gave Tom Huffman the serial number and he added the meter to my licence. Works great. I did some touch ups of my RS2000 last night with it.
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I ended up buying this for my EFI ES-2000, though you might want to find a slightly larger one. That one works but just barely due to the size of the meter.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072KNBV21/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072KNBV21/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
That's a good idea, and they ship to France !
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I ended up buying this for my EFI ES-2000, though you might want to find a slightly larger one. That one works but just barely due to the size of the meter.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072KNBV21/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072KNBV21/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
I can also confirm that the meter shows up as an i1Pro2 in ChromaPure. I gave Tom Huffman the serial number and he added the meter to my licence. Works great. I did some touch ups of my RS2000 last night with it.
Maybe it's time for a brief RS2000 review update, touching on the DTM and thoughts now that you've had it a while.
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As you can see, you are affected by the same inaccuracy on green. I'm pretty sure that your green is not that far from the reference. And trying to fix it, your Autocal is reducing the overall luminance (and making the green worse). Haven't you noticed a reduced luminance? Once I reset and calibrated color again using the i1 pro 2, I realized that the green was much better, as I was supposing. See my previous posts. I had the exact same behavior shown by you. And see what i1 pro 2 reported instead.
Man, I hope it is a bug in the software and it gets corrected. Trying hard not to have to spend the $ and get a i1 pro 2. Maybe i will just do the same for now and reset, doing just gamma with the SpyderX.
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Just received the EFI ES-2000, the vendor did not lie, it's brand new unused even the stickers are still on and it's dated 08-2017.
Using DisplayCal I will try to use it do a correction matrix of my spyder 5 and X and see how they compare.
Question : by doing this is it possible to have a visual indication / chart of the comparison or are they just figures to be interpreted ? Sorry I have never done this before.
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Man, I hope it is a bug in the software and it gets corrected. Trying hard not to have to spend the $ and get a i1 pro 2. Maybe i will just do the same for now and reset, doing just gamma with the SpyderX.
Ditto!
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Just received the EFI ES-2000, the vendor did not lie, it's brand new unused even the stickers are still on and it's dated 08-2017.
Using DisplayCal I will try to use it do a correction matrix of my spyder 5 and X and see how they compare.
Question : by doing this is it possible to have a visual indication / chart of the comparison or are they just figures to be interpreted ? Sorry I have never done this before.
I would suggest, simply measure gamut with all three (without correction matrix) and compare them. You should be able to have an indication of dE for the vertex (RGB) and white. I guess you will have a bad green with the SpyderX like me. Please consider that correction matrix doesn’t help with autocal, as the software doesn’t offer any way to enter it.
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Sure, I knew that autocal does not allow a correction matrix, I only meant a way to compare the spyder 5 vs the X.
To do the actual autocal I will of course use the Spyder ( X or 5 ) for the gamma and the ES-2000 (I1 Pro2) for the colour calibration.
Later on if my knowledge improves I may even attempt a full calibration with HCFR .... ;)
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I don't think the light loss is normal. I did an autocal on a NX5 and NX7 with Spyder5 / i1 Pro 2 combo and both times it slightly increased brightness post calibration.
The gamma cal shouldn't affect the brightness since gamma doesn't affect 100% white which is what you just to measure the brightness.
The color cal is what can affect brightness, but with an i1 Pro 2 I have olny seen it slightly raise brightness after cal.
Have you calculated your lumens? The NX5 and NX7 I autocal were about 1600 lumens after autocal in high bulb full open iris and close throw.
Thank you for the reply! You’re right, it is the color cal that’s hurting my brightness.
I reloaded my init file and recovered my brightness (1500 lumens on my rs2000, 135” screen).
I redid my auto cal, first with gamma/spyder x and didn’t lose any brightness.
Then I did color/ipro 2 and lost brightness again. Went from 95 nits to 85 nits.
Not sure if I’m doing something wrong or if that’s just what happens to my unit when the white point is calibrated?
Im at min throw/max zoom and I have the ipro 2 about 2 ft facing the screen. I changed my screen size to 60 on the autocal software bc I thought I read Manni saying that could affect brightness.
has anyone else lost brightness with an ipro 2 color cal?
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So using my monitor and DisplayCal I did a correction matrix for both the Spyder X and 5 versus the I1 Pro2, here is the result :
(https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2019/11/08//19110803083115897516499141.jpg)
Also attached the ccmx files.
Any comments about them ?
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So using my monitor and DisplayCal I did a correction matrix for both the Spyder X and 5 versus the I1 Pro2, here is the result :
(https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2019/11/08//19110803083115897516499141.jpg)
Also attached the ccmx files.
Any comments about them ?
What did you expect to see? You have corrected both with the same reference spectrometer so you got very similar results. I don’t understand the purpose of your test
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As I recommended, to compare SpyderX to Spyder5 you have to test them uncorrected and use the i1 pro 2 as a reference. So you can determine which one is closer to it.
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Agreed the chart is of no value as far as comparing the Spyder 5 against the X, but joining the 2 matrix files I was hoping that they could help to decide which one is the best to keep.
So my question now is how can I test them uncorrected against the I1 pro 2, or do I just decide to keep the X for the Autocal gamma calibration because it is faster ?
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Maybe a stupid idea, but opening side by side the 2 ccmx files Spyder 5 on the left and X on the right, and if these figures are relevant delta to the reference I1 pro 2, one can see that the righmost Spyder X figures are always smaller, can't that show that the X is more similar to the I1 pro 2 than the 5 ?
(https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2019/11/09//aoo3Ib-Spyder-5-ccmx-vs-Spyder-X.jpg)
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Yes, you can say that SpyderX is more accurate... according to displaycal!. The issue is that Autocal seems to not use it properly. Have you observed an incorrect green after having calibrated the color with autocal?
Try to measure the gamut with displaycal and compare it to what autocal is logging.
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Yes will do that, it may take a little time though :(
When I get a chance I will also do a correction matrix for my I1D3 too but using the actual screen this time.
To do this can there be a variation if using DisplayCal instead of HCFR ?
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Yes will do that, it may take a little time though :(
When I get a chance I will also do a correction matrix for my I1D3 too but using the actual screen this time.
To do this can there be a variation if using DisplayCal instead of HCFR ?
No variation on the results of a calibration. The aim is always to correct the measure and you will get a corrected measure with both. But again, this is not helpful to compare the meters: once corrected they will look the same. And, as you know, you are not improving the way jvc autocal software works. A profiled meter can just provide more accurate measures outside of autocal.
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There has been a lot of misinformation and assumptions posted in the thread recently, so after running a few tests I'm going to try to correct a few mistruths...
Regarding the i1pro2 driver:
1) The driver for the i1pro2 doesn't make any difference for the Autocal, at least here. Both in V11 and V12, the i1pro2 is detected if you leave it on the calibration tile when you select it in the software, irrespective of the driver (2006 or 2009). No idea why that didn't work for me in the past, or why it still doesn't work for some.
2) The 2009 driver is installed by Calman, so unless you want to replace the driver with an older version every time you install a new version of Calman, I don't see any reason to revert to the 2006 driver if you're running the latest windows build. The 2009 driver seems to be working just as well as the 2006 one.
3) There is no accuracy issue with the 2009 driver here, I have no idea where that comes from, at least with Calman. There might be a bug in Autocal V12, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the driver itself.
This is with Windows 10 Pro x64 build 1903 and with an i1pro2 REV E. Of course it could be different with older versions of Windows, or with unsupported clones of the i1pro2, but this is what I observe here.
If you observe anything different, please list the exact model of your meter and windows version and provide actual measurements, so we can try to see if there are incompatible combinations.
Regarding the results of Autocal V12 with the Spyder X:
I haven't received a version of Calman supporting the X yet, but I've done some limited tests in Lightspace with my Spyder X unit. It has a 5dE error on white, and a 1-2dE error on red and green (I didn't measure blue). The reading from the Autocal itself show the same errors when you do a log with the i1pro2 and the Spyder X, so there is nothing that suggests that V12 is doing anything wrong with the Spyder X. It just reads what the Spyder X reports and takes it as reality.
So I wouldn't use this specific Spyder X for color calibration, given that the JVCs are fairly close out of the box.
My Spyder 5 (that specific unit, it could be different with another one) reading off the lens is more accurate, even though I'd rather use the i1pro2 for color obviously.
Regarding the i1pro2, I got better results in V11 than in V12. I tried gamma with the Spyder X + color with the i1pro2 in V12, and gamma with the Spyder 5 + color with the i1pro2 in V11, and V11 gave better results, both from a gamma and from a color point of view.
So there might be some bug(s) in V12 besides the errors in my specific Spyder X unit, which are typical of the kind of errors found in Spyders.
I recommend using V11 with a Spyder 5 if you can until more tests are done with V12. I'll do that when I get a version of Calman supporting the Spyder X, but of course others are welcome to contribute in the meantime.
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Manni: maybe a typo, but the I1 Pro 2 is Rev E, same for the EFI ES-2000 that actually is an X-rite I1 Pro 2 simply rebadged.
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Manni: maybe a typo, but the I1 Pro 2 is Rev E, same for the EFI ES-2000 that actually is an X-rite I1 Pro 2 simply rebadged.
Thanks, it was a typo, corrected. It's my old i1pro that was a REV. D :)
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There has been a lot of misinformation and assumptions posted in the thread recently, so after running a few tests I'm going to try to correct a few mistruths...
Regarding the i1pro2 driver:
1) The driver for the i1pro2 doesn't make any difference for the Autocal, at least here. Both in V11 and V12, the i1pro2 is detected if you leave it on the calibration tile when you select it in the software, irrespective of the driver (2006 or 2009). No idea why that didn't work for me in the past, or why it still doesn't work for some.
2) The 2009 driver is installed by Calman, so unless you want to replace the driver with an older version every time you install a new version of Calman, I don't see any reason to revert to the 2006 driver if you're running the latest windows build. The 2009 driver seems to be working just as well as the 2006 one.
3) There is no accuracy issue with the 2009 driver here, I have no idea where that comes from, at least with Calman. There might be a bug in Autocal V12, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the driver itself.
This is with Windows 10 Pro x64 build 1909 and with an i1pro2 REV E. Of course it could be different with older versions of Windows, or with unsupported clones of the i1pro2, but this is what I observe here.
If you observe anything different, please list the exact model of your meter and windows version and provide actual measurements, so we can try to see if there are incompatible combinations.
Regarding the results of Autocal V12 with the Spyder X:
I haven't received a version of Calman supporting the X yet, but I've done some limited tests in Lightspace with my Spyder X unit. It has a 5dE error on white, and a 1-2dE error on red and green (I didn't measure blue). The reading from the Autocal itself show the same errors when you do a log with the i1pro2 and the Spyder X, so there is nothing that suggests that V12 is doing anything wrong with the Spyder X. It just reads what the Spyder X reports and takes it as reality.
Looking at your gamut diagrams within Autocal I would guess that the error on green is more than 2dE. If you consider that with i1pro2 you are reading a green positioned slightly at right of the reference and SpyderX is instead reporting a green slightly to the left of the reference. You should be comparing the SpyderX with i1pro2 not with the current VPR status. So similarly to me, Autocal is trying to fix the green in the wrong direction. In DisplayCal the difference seems less than what I see in Autocal. I still have some doubts about the accuracy of Autocal 12. After all you are stating that 11 is more accurate so there is something wrong.
I don't know DisplayCal, does it allow to specify a correction matrix like HCFR does? What have you selected in that case?
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@Manni
No correction matrix with DisplayCal?
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@Manni
No correction matrix with DisplayCal?
You can create correction matrix in DisplayCAL or use correction matrix created elsewhere (like HCFR) with it too.
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You can create correction matrix in DisplayCAL or use correction matrix created elsewhere (like HCFR) with it too.
I was referring to something subtly different. When you create a new session within colorHCFR, it is asked which correction matrix to apply from a predefined list. This list seems to be embedded in the meter (or driver?). For sure it changes with the meter. And it alters significantly the measures. One of them was able to make the spyder measures closer to the reference. I was asking if displaycal does the same and in that case which one Manni selected.
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Within the DisplayCal help and guidance there is a chapter that mentions the fact that the spyders 4 and 5 (X too ?) have some sort of in-build spectral values caracterizing their filters. Not sure I understand all of it but that looks like what you're talking about.
Special note about the X-Rite i1 Display Pro, ColorMunki Display and Spyder4/5 colorimeters
These instruments greatly reduce the amount of work needed to match them to a display because they contain the spectral sensitivities of their filters in hardware, so only a spectrometer reading of the display is needed to create the correction (in contrast to matching other colorimeters to a display, which needs two readings: One with a spectrometer and one with the colorimeter).
That means anyone with a particular screen and a spectrometer can create a special Colorimeter Calibration Spectral Set (
.ccss
) file of that screen for use with those colorimeters, without needing to actually have access to the colorimeter itself.
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I was referring to something subtly different. When you create a new session within colorHCFR, it is asked which correction matrix to apply from a predefined list. This list seems to be embedded in the meter (or driver?). For sure it changes with the meter. And it alters significantly the measures. One of them was able to make the spyder measures closer to the reference. I was asking if displaycal does the same and in that case which one Manni selected.
In my experience those are called spectral corrections rather than matrix, which is what threw me off.
Those come from the manufacturer and are found in the stock manufacturer drivers of the Spyder 4/5 and i1D3.
In order to use a spectral correction, the meter must have an internal table knowing its own spectral distribution set by the manufacturer when it's created. The SpyderX does not have this and is not compatible with spectral corrections.
Using one of the provided spectral corrections to check the Spyder5 doesn't really make sense since Autocal might use no spectral correction, or I would more likely assume that JVC has included their own spectral correction for the Spyder5, but of course are unable to do so for the SpyderX.
Problem is we will probably never truly know if autocal does or does not use a spectral correction with the Spyder5, so checking it with HCFR or DisplayCAL, choosing no spectral correction might be right, but it may also be wrong.
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The issue with colorHCFR is that you must select one correction matrix (that’s how it calls it). I guess that “General” means no correction, but I am not sure. They are general purpose matrices for specific type of devices (led, wide led, etc) in case you can’t create your own custom correction matrix with a reliable spectrometer as a reference. At least the deviations due to the device get corrected, not the inaccuracy of the meter.
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Since you can select no correction in DisplayCAL you could compare that to HCFR general or whatever it's called and see if they are the same.
I am pretty sure the general or 1st drop down correction option is essentially no correction in HCFR.
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Please could you take the off -topic HCFR / DisplayCAL discussion to PM or to another thread? Thanks.
@Cyberpaul, you need to read my posts more carefully.
I don't use DisplayCAL. The measurements I've posted are made with Lightspace, as indicated.
Obviously I wasn't using a correction matrix, it would be pointless otherwise.
The measurements show the difference between the meters, nothing else.
However, you can't compare the measurements from Autocal and the measurements from Lightspace directly simply because they don't use the same patterns. The autocal uses the JVC Internal patterns, Lightspace was using madTPG. DisplayCAL or HCFR could be using different patterns still (for example their internal ones). Depending on the settings, the GPU, the driver, the OS, this can induce further differences. The only valid comparison between two meters is with the same software, using the same patterns / video chain.
There can also be differences due to different drivers if a calibration software doesn't use the windows standard driver, which is the case with DisplayCAL/HCFR as they might be using Argyll driver.
Anyway, let's keep the discussion on topic, I only use different software to provide data related to the Autocal.
I will do more tests when I get a version of Calman supporting the Spyder X, as Lightspace is pretty much useless and not very ergonomic for this kind of work.
In the meantime, feel free to provide measurements, but stop requesting more work, explanations,especially when you haven't read the information already provided properly.
Again I don't have the time to answer off-topic questions or to correct all the incorrect assumptions or statement made recently in the thread.
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Please read my posts more carefully too. My only mistake is to have said DisplayCal instead of LightSpace. We are only human after all :). You focused on that mistake but the rest is still valid.
- I was simply saying that you should compare the meters between them, not the meters with the reference, as you can have an imperfectly calibrated VPR as a starting point. So if Lightspace told you that you have dE=+2 with SpyderX and let's say -1 with i1pro2, you may have to sum the two to get the total difference (depending on the direction of the deviation). I was asking confirmation that you considered the real difference between the two. This is very important as I was observing a bigger difference within AutoCal and our main goal was to understand if it is interpreting correctly the measures.
- As I explained very clearly, the point of the correction matrix is that colorHCFR forces you to select one so I was asking if Lightspace does the same and in that case which one you selected. This was helpful to understand if there is an implication on differences with what AutoCal is reading.
Nothing offensive or stupid I believe... Not even OT!
I would humbly say keep calm and be open
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Please read my posts more carefully too.
- I was simply saying that you should compare the meters between them, not the meters with the reference, as you can have an imperfectly calibrated VPR as a starting point. So if DisplayCal told you that you have dE=+2 with SpyderX and let's say -1 with i1pro2, you may have to sum the two to get the total difference (depending on the direction of the deviation). I was asking confirmation that you considered the real difference between the two.
- As I explained very clearly, the point of the correction matrix is that with HCFR forces you to select one so I was asking if DisplayCal does the same and in that case which one had you selected.
- I was NOT comparing results of different softwares. Where did you read that?
Nothing offensive or stupid I believe...
I would humbly say keep calm and be open
I am perfectly calm and open, I am simply asking you to read my posts more carefully (editing yours aftwerwards doesn't make any difference to the fact that when you posted it, as it is above, you still had not read my original post or my reply carefully. Making a mistake is fine, we are indeed all human. Not reading a post twice is not a mistake, it's carelessness).
For the last time, I am not using DisplayCAL (or HCFR), full stop, yet you keep mentioning it. Why?
Even after I tell you in my last post that I DON'T USE DISPLAYCAL. Not shouting, only making sure that you are not going to miss this information a THIRD time, as I said from the beginning that the measurements were taken with Lightspace.
I have posted measurements using different software, and you are saying that the differences are bigger in one than in the other, without backing this up with any data. I am simply saying that you can't compare directly measurements from two different software anyway.
I have posted the exact measurements, with the relative dE for each meter. If you want to calculate the absolute dE for each meter because you disagree with my estimate, you can do so and post the actual dE for each measurement.
For the last time, please either provide information if you wish to do so so that it can be discussed, or be patient and wait for the next chunk of data that I said I would provide when I have the right software and the time to do it.
If you keep being disruptive, taking the thread off topic or wasting my time, you will be banned from this thread, or I will simply close it, temporarily or definitely.
I have no interest in debating or arguing. My time is limited and I'd rather use it to provide information and advice and learn things.
So please keep the thread on topic, read all the posts carefully before making assumptions, raising questions and questioning the data. If you question the data provided, do some work and provide more data yourself instead of asking more work from me.
This is the last warning. There won't be another one.
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Hi Manni,
thank you for this great resource. This thread is so helpful to an autocal novice like me.
Ive gotten good results on color and gamma with my idpro2 and spyder x. I just do a little touch up on 5%-20% greyscale range with chromapure/i1dpro.
However, I still get a fairly decent brightness loss. For HDR, I go from 95 nits to 83 nits when my white balance/color is autocaled. Do you think that is acceptable/normal? Does changing the screen size option in the autocal software still potentially affect brightness? Ive tried hard to follow your recommended steps, but perhaps this is just the normal brightness loss when starting out with a white balance that is fairly off (I have excess green and short on red and blue before autocal).
I have a JVC rs2000, 135" 16x9 neve screen at min throw.
Would you have any advice, or perhaps this is just the norm with my particular setup? Thank you
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Hi Manni,
thank you for this great resource. This thread is so helpful to an autocal novice like me.
Ive gotten good results on color and gamma with my idpro2 and spyder x. I just do a little touch up on 5%-20% greyscale range with chromapure/i1dpro.
However, I still get a fairly decent brightness loss. For HDR, I go from 95 nits to 83 nits when my white balance/color is autocaled. Do you think that is acceptable/normal? Does changing the screen size option in the autocal software still potentially affect brightness? Ive tried hard to follow your recommended steps, but perhaps this is just the normal brightness loss when starting out with a white balance that is fairly off (I have excess green and short on red and blue before autocal).
I have a JVC rs2000, 135" 16x9 neve screen at min throw.
Would you have any advice, or perhaps this is just the norm with my particular setup? Thank you
Hi there,
Losing 5-10% brightness is perfectly normal when you go from uncorrected (all gains at 0) to autocal, especially if you have an excess of green, as that's where most of the luminance (around 70%) lies. Next comes red (around 23%) and last comes blue (around 7%).
So if you have to reduce green to get to D65, you'll lose a lot more brightness than if you have to reduce blue for example.
On the other hand, once you have an autocal, if you correct the gains over time more and more to get to D65 as the lamp ages and the balance changes, you might end up getting some brightness back doing an autocal, because the autocal can adjust some internal tables and you might end up with more brightness.
One thing you might want to try is see if after the autocal another color temp preset gives you more brightness after adjustment than 6500K without, but usually this will not give you results as linear for the rest of the steps.
As far as I know, the screen size, distance etc is only used if you use the environment settings, which I personally don't recommend to use if you have a bat cave, so I wouldn't play with these.
One thing you could do if you wanted to be sure that autocal doesn't lose any brightness, is restore your INIT file and see how much brightness you get when setting 100% white to D65 manually with the gains from the 6500K (or 7500K). My guess is that it would be as much or possibly a bit less that what the Autocal delivers. If it's significantly more, post the measurements and we'll take it from there.
If you don't have to make any significant corrections after the autocal (no more than a few clicks), pat yourself in the back for a job well done, and enjoy the projector :)
With the new DTM in your rs2000 (assuming you're using f/w 3.10) and even less with madVR/Radiance Pro, 83 vs 98 nits doesn't make a significant difference anyway.
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Thank you Manni, that was incredibly helpful and I appreciate it.
I do get about the same/slightly worse brightness loss when I manually adjust white balance. Im extremely happy with the picture quality I have now and will sit back and enjoy! Youre def correct on needing less brightness with good DTM. I am on the current firmware and am very happy with the DTM. Im planning on getting a Mad vr Envy when it arrives to take it to the next level.
Thanks again for your help!
Regards!
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Thank you Manni, that was incredibly helpful and I appreciate it.
I do get about the same/slightly worse brightness loss when I manually adjust white balance. Im extremely happy with the picture quality I have now and will sit back and enjoy! Youre def correct on needing less brightness with good DTM. I am on the current firmware and am very happy with the DTM. Im planning on getting a Mad vr Envy when it arrives to take it to the next level.
Thanks again for your help!
Regards!
You're very welcome, sounds like you are all set :)
The Envy will definitely take you to the next step. The JVC DTM is a huge improvement over the old static tonemapping, but it's still significantly behind madVR/Envy, especially after the latest madVR developments (particularly the HSTM contrast enhancer).
Even from an ease of use point of view, with the Envy you won't have to make any manual adjustments, while with DTM Auto isn't always the optimal choice when the metadata isn't reliable and occasionally you'll get better results overriding to low/medium/high manually.
Still, you'll be able to enjoy a great picture in the meantime :)
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I have done some quick tests to see if my RS2000, which is very slightly undersaturated on red in P3, could benefit from using profile off with the filter (which is the widest gamut the projector is capable of) instead of the DCI-P3 color profile, and the answer is no. It would be the same for BT2020 by the way, I only used DCI-P3 as it's closer to the native gamut of the projector and makes measurements easier/clearer.
After my last autocal, I get above 97% of P3 cover for a max dE under 2 (that's before my madVR 3D LUT) and 99% color volume. The calibration is perfectly linear and barely needs a 3D LUT.
With profile off with filter, I get 98% of P3 cover but that's because of extra cover of blue and magenta that compensates my deficiency in red. Red is limited by the native gamut, so profile off doesn't give me anything there.
Same with color volume, I get 104% of P3, but that's because it takes into account excess in green and blue, it doesn't make any difference for my slightly deficient red.
However, it's completely non-linear and unusable without a very large LUT (5,000 points, which is 2.5 hours here at least) while using DCI-P3 is perfectly usable after an Autocal without a 3D LUT, and a 10-minute lightning LUT in Calman (100 points) gives me near reference results (according to the i1pro of course).
So no hesitation here, at this stage, profile off is not an interesting option with this specific unit. It could be different in other situations, but here I won't bother. Too much hassle (you have to enable the filter using a specific IP or IR command as there is no option for profile off with the filter) for no visible gain.
I post some gamut and color volume measurements that show the result of my last autocal (V11, Spyder 5 + i1pro2) re gamut, no 3D LUT applied. After a few days, it's nice to see that it hasn't drifted at all.
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So as for now you recommend a gamma autocal with V11 and spyder 5 and not V12 and spyder X ?
As I have both it's interesting to know.
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So as for now you recommend a gamma autocal with V11 and spyder 5 and not V12 and spyder X ?
As I have both it's interesting to know.
Until further tests are done, yes.
I'm hoping to get a beta build of Calman with Spyder X support any day now, so I might be able to provide more definitive data over the week-end.
The only thing I can say is that with my specific Spyder X and Spyder 5 units, I get better results with V11 / Spyder 5 / i1pro2 than with V12 / Spyder X / i1pro2. Could be the meters, could be a software bug or a driver issue, we should find out soon.
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As in my physical environment it is not very easy to position the 5 accurately, I'll wait your findings to do another gamma autocal ;)
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As in my physical environment it is not very easy to position the 5 accurately, I'll wait your findings to do another gamma autocal ;)
Yes, it’s certainly much easier to position the Spyder X facing the screen in most rooms. :)
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But wait, I can do a color autocal with my I1pro2 in the mean time, I believe it's not gamma autocal dependent, or is it ?
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But wait, I can do a color autocal with my I1pro2 in the mean time, I believe it's not gamma autocal dependent, or is it ?
It’s not gamma dependent but it impacts the greyscale, and there might be some issues with the i1pro2 in V12 as well, it’s not just the Spyders.
I’m not going to make any further comments on the subject until more extensive testing is done to figure out exactly what’s happening and why. :)
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He can do a color autocal with i1pro2 using v11
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He can do a color autocal with i1pro2 using v11
If you read my posts, you'll see that it is recommended to use V11 if you can.
So he can do anything he wants with V11: color only with the i1pro2, gamma only with the Spyder 5, whatever he fancies.
It's only with V12 that I'm saying that running a color only with the i1pro2 can produce results inferior to what can be obtained with V11. The issue with V12 might not be only with the Spyder X.
At least that's what I observe here.
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I have always had a dilemma on this: since grey scale is anyway impacted by color calibration, which one do you recommend to autocalibrate first, gamma or color?
Also, is gamma autocalibration performed separately on the three primary colors? I think so and this can have an implication on the answer to the above question.
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If you read my posts, you'll see that it is recommended to use V11 if you can.
So he can do anything he wants with V11, color with the i1pro2, gamma with the Spyder 5, whatever.
It's only with V12 that I'm saying that running a color only with the i1pro2 can produce results inferior to what can be obtained with V11. The issue with V12 might not be only with the Spyder X.
At least that's what I observe here.
Sure, I provided the suggestion based on your post.
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I have always had a dilemma on this: since grey scale is anyway impacted by color calibration, which one do you recommend to autocalibrate first, gamma or color?
Also, is gamma autocalibration performed separately on the three primary colors? I think so and this can have an implication on the answer to the above question.
In theory, it shouldn't make any difference which one you do first. In practice, I think color first would be better, but I haven't confirmed this and that's one of the things I'd like to rule out in my upcoming V11/V12 comparison.
Yes, gamma autocal is performed separately on the three primary colors, as can be seen during the autocal process. Otherwise, the accuracy of the spyder on white/grey would be an issue and it doesn't seem to be the case.
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Sure, I provided the suggestion based on your post.
In that case your suggestion doesn't make sense.
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In that case your suggestion doesn't make sense.
Why? jj-34 said:
I can do a color autocal with my I1pro2
And you responded:
there might be some issues with the i1pro2 in V12 as well
That's why I replied saying that he can use V11, supporting your suggestion. I know that it seems obvious to you, but I thought that he may have not considered that option. That's all.
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In theory, it shouldn't make any difference which one you do first. In practice, I think color first would be better, but I haven't confirmed this and that's one of the things I'd like to rule out in my upcoming V11/V12 comparison.
Yes, gamma autocal is performed separately on the three primary colors, as can be seen during the autocal process. Otherwise, the accuracy of the spyder on white/grey would be an issue and it doesn't seem to be the case.
So, even though spyderx is inaccurate on white, is it accurate enough on R/G/B?
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So, even though spyderx is inaccurate on white, is it accurate enough on R/G/B?
For the last time, I am not commenting on the Spyder X and V12 until I have done more tests.
It is clearly the case with previous versions and yes the spyder can be accurate on R/G/B separately on gamma because it's about relative measurements on each color, not about color balance. If gamma is set accurately with the spyder, the i1pro should get the color balance correct when setting white.
@Everyone
I don't have the time to maintain this thread and deal with all the unnecessary chatter.
I am locking it until I get a version of Calman that support the Spyder X or a solution is provided to limit the chatter.
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A solution has been found, so we are back in business :)
I still haven't managed to get a Calman beta from Spectracal with Spyder X support, so until this happens and we can provide more data, please refrain from asking about V12 and Spyder X support.
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I ran a few color autocal with my i1pro2 yesterday and I can confirm two things:
1) I checked the ranges for color autocal, and they are the same as before: 0 to -3, -4 to -7, -8 to -11, -12 to -15. However, there is a significant and increasing difference in the RGB balance as you close the iris down until the next range starts, so I would advise to calibrate the iris setting that you actually use in each range for maximum accuracy. For example, I calibrated at 0, -5 and -9 to calibrate the three settings that I am most likely to use in HDR.
2) The i1pro2 didn't need to be initialized after each autocal in the same session, which is great news. So I only put it on its tile for the first calibration (it takes a little while to detect and init), and after that every time I selected it, it just went to the meter positioning screen right away. This was with the Calman 2009 driver in Windows 10 x64 Pro Build 1909.
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1) I checked the ranges for color autocal, and they are the same as before: 0 to -3, -4 to -7, -8 to -11, -12 to -15. However, there is a significant and increasing difference in the RGB balance as you close the iris down until the next range starts, so I would advise to calibrate the iris setting that you actually use in each range for maximum accuracy.
Out of interest - in what direction? Does it get yellower by any chance?
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Out of interest - in what direction? Does it get yellower by any chance?
The difference was on red, but I can't remember if it was deficient or in excess. I think it was in excess, but I could be wrong.
It's easy enough to check: do a color autocal at the beg of a range (say 0, then close down the manual iris and see how it changes. That's what I did to identify the ranges (after restoring my init file).
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I ran a few color autocal with my i1pro2 yesterday and I can confirm two things:
1) I checked the ranges for color autocal, and they are the same as before: 0 to -3, -4 to -7, -8 to -11, -12 to -15. However, there is a significant and increasing difference in the RGB balance as you close the iris down until the next range starts
I noticed the same issue; so much so that I was wondering if JVC changed the range boundaries, until I switched to High Lamp which had not been Autocal-ed before.
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I ran a few color autocal with my i1pro2 yesterday and I can confirm two things:
1) I checked the ranges for color autocal, and they are the same as before: 0 to -3, -4 to -7, -8 to -11, -12 to -15. However, there is a significant and increasing difference in the RGB balance as you close the iris down until the next range starts, so I would advise to calibrate the iris setting that you actually use in each range for maximum accuracy. For example, I calibrated at 0, -5 and -9 to calibrate the three settings that I am most likely to use in HDR.
Hi Manni, could you clarify please? What means "they are the same as before"? Before to autocal? Means autocal not changed color gamut? Mean not changed white point? Means for example that in the first range 0 to -3 for a total of four autocal operation and nothing (what?) changed but the RGB change was significant? Which has been your methodology for check and the target?
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Hi Manni, could you clarify please? What means "they are the same as before"? Before to autocal? Means autocal not changed color gamut? Mean not changed white point? Means for example that in the first range 0 to -3 for a total of four autocal operation and nothing (what?) changed but the RGB change was significant? Which has been your methodology for check and the target?
Hi Ent,
No, this simply means that the ranges haven't changed with Autocal V12. They are the same as they have always been (the boundaries are at -4, -8 and -12). The calibration itself went perfectly well and as expected, except that the most accurate point is the iris setting selected within that range.
So for example, the first range is 0 to -3. Any iris setting you calibrate within that range will replace the previous color calibration for that range (same lamp/filter mode). However, the actual iris setting selected during the calibration will have a lower dE than the others in the range. So if I calibrate 0, -1 will still be okay but slightly worse RGB balance, -2 will still be okay but slightly worse RGB balance, -3 will still be okay but even worse RGB balance, and -4 (different range) will be uncalibrated.
This is explained in the basic section, there were just some questions recently about whether the ranges had changed in V12 or for the new models, and they haven't, so I was only confirming that they were the same, but that for maximum accuracy it was better to use in each range the iris setting that you are actually using, if there is one.
This is why I calibrate at 0, -5 and -9 for HDR, because these are the iris settings I actually use, rather than 0, -4, -8 which would calibrate the same ranges but would be less accurate at -5 and -9, which are the settings I'm interested in. I don't calibrate below -9 because I'll never use an iris setting below -9 in HDR, so I don't bother doing the last range (-12 to -15) in that mode.
Makes sense?
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Hi everyone, I am new to calibration and thanks a lot for all your posts!
I purchased an RS3000 from Mike earlier this year and just started calibrating recently. After playing with calibration for a while, I found the following problem:
I am using Nature and low lamp mode for my SDR viewing. I used spyder X with Autocal to calibrate the gamma. Then I used xrite i1 and HCFR to check the picture. It showed perfect gamma, perfect gray scale and perfect color saturation sweep. However, when I change the lamp to high, w/o changing anything else, I can see a lot green push in the gray scale. After adjusting the color temp to get an almost perfect gray scale, the color saturation sweep still shows that the red is under-saturated.
So, my question is: is it normal that the JVC's high lamp mode has a green push and lacks red comparing to low lamp mode? Am I supposed to fix this by just pushing the red saturation? I could see this green push and under saturation with my naked eye even before I had a color meter. The color meter confirmed my observation.
I also just started to use madVR recently, it's gorgeous and, imho, better than JVC's DTM. However, I also found a problem with madVR. I noticed some color noise in some pictures with madVR, which is not there when I using UB820 or OPPO. I attached a picture. It looks like ringing artifact.
Is there any setting in madVR that can reduce this kind of artifact? I tried different settings in the upscaling, but nothing worked even with the softest setting. The only setting reduced the artifact is Random Noise Reduction, which smeared details as well.
Thank you in advance for any help!
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Hi there,
Welcome and congratulations on your new PJ :)
Regarding your first question, yes it is normal as if you change the lamp setting or the filter setting you have to run a new gamma calibration (unless you select "apply to all" during calibration, which is less accurate but applies a single calibration to all the lamp/filter combination tables). You also need to run a color calibration for each iris settings that you use if they are in a different range (ranges change at -12, -8 and -4), and this is for each lamp/filter mode combination.
Please read first two posts of the thread and the whole of the basic section, everything is explained.
Feel free to post again once you have read the above as well as any relevant link in the second post.
Regarding your question about madVR, this is off topic here (although many of us are madVR fans). Please post your question in a madVR support thread, for example on Doom9, or if it's specific to the experimental HDR tonemapping for projectors, in the thread in which this is discussed and where the test versions are posted (make sure you use the latest version, at the moment 112b).
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Hi Manni,
Thanks for your quick reply!
Yes, I did read your posts, for multiple times:). Actually you referred this thread to me on AVS more half a year ago when I just bought my projector.
I understand that I need separate calibrations for different lamp, iris and filter settings and different display modes. I only did gamma autocal but not the color for Nature setting in low lamp mode with spyder. Then the Nature setting in low lamp mode gave me perfect gray scale and color saturation sweep as confirmed by using Xrite with HCFR, I did not have to calibrate the color, which surprised me.
In the same Nature mode, only changing lamp mode to high resulted in a lot green push and lack of red. So I am now just wondering is my lamp a bad sample, or does every JVC lamp have the same direction of spectrum shift when change lamp mode? So I guess my question is more about the lamp quality (super accurate color in low lamp with default Nature setting, but more green and less red in high lamp mode) rather than the calibration process.
Regarding madVR, I posted my question in madVR thread on AVS as well. I saw you a lot in that thread so I also posted my question here trying to get help quicker. Sorry for the off topic.
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Hi there,
It is just luck that you didn't need to do a color calibration in low lamp, though as natural is an SDR mode it might be factory calibrated for low lamp rather than high lamp, or the low lamp factory calibration was more accurate than the high lamp one. Some factory modes are very close out of the box, but they will drift with time. It's not the same calibration anyway.
In any case there is most probably nothing wrong with your lamp, you just need a color calibration in high lamp (and most likely a gamma one as well). If you only do a gamma autocal, there is no reason to expect your color balance to be correct in any mode.
You could try to do a color calibration in high lamp with your spyder, then before saving it check it with your i1d3 and a third-party software (I assume it's an i1d3 and not an i1pro, otherwise you would use it for color calibration in the Autocal). If the result is good, save it in the Autocal. if it isn't, don't.
Re madVR, as your issue isn't specific to HDR tonemapping, this is the wrong thread to post it. You should post in a madVR support thread, for example on Doom9, but there are others.
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Thank you!
Yes, my xrite is i1pro3. I am not sure about the exact name, but it is the cheaper one incompatible with autocal. I tried using spyder for color autocal, but the result was way off (too red), I did not have to check it with xrite and HCFR, the picture was so wrong that I can tell by my eyes.
Again, thank you! Your posts helped me a lot.
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Thank you!
Yes, my xrite is i1pro3. I am not sure about the exact name, but it is the cheaper one incompatible with autocal. I tried using spyder for color autocal, but the result was way off (too red), I did not have to check it with xrite and HCFR, the picture was so wrong that I can tell by my eyes.
Again, thank you! Your posts helped me a lot.
You're welcome.
As your Spyder can't be used for color autocal if uncorrected, I would suggest to get an i1pro2 or compatible if you want the Autocal to do the color calibration, or to correct your Spyder using the spreadsheet method (original ChadB method or my slightly modified or modified one). It's quite involved and I haven't described it in detail here as I've updated it to work better irrespective of the actual gamut cover, but you can find the gist of it in the old calibration thread in the meantime. A simpler version is to only correct white, which already improves things a lot for RGB balance across the whole greyscale and works irrespective of the target gamut (as the target is always D65).
(https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-53.html#post51480801)https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-49.html#post50950289 (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-49.html#post50950289)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-53.html#post51480801
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-63.html#post53770137 (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-63.html#post53770137)
I'll try to post more about this here when I find the time to document my new method.
Also I forgot to say that if you're using the Spyder facing the PJ, you have to select the correct screen code after calibration to take the screen into account. This might significantly reduce your errors if your screen material isn't color neutral. A link to the screen codes is listed in the second post.
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Hi Ent,
No, this simply means that the ranges haven't changed with Autocal V12. They are the same as they have always been (the boundaries are at -4, -8 and -12). The calibration itself went perfectly well and as expected, except that the most accurate point is the iris setting selected within that range.
So for example, the first range is 0 to -3. Any iris setting you calibrate within that range will replace the previous color calibration for that range (same lamp/filter mode). However, the actual iris setting selected during the calibration will have a lower dE than the others in the range. So if I calibrate 0, -1 will still be okay but slightly worse RGB balance, -2 will still be okay but slightly worse RGB balance, -3 will still be okay but even worse RGB balance, and -4 (different range) will be uncalibrated.
This is explained in the basic section, there were just some questions recently about whether the ranges had changed in V12 or for the new models, and they haven't, so I was only confirming that they were the same, but that for maximum accuracy it was better to use in each range the iris setting that you are actually using, if there is one.
This is why I calibrate at 0, -5 and -9 for HDR, because these are the iris settings I actually use, rather than 0, -4, -8 which would calibrate the same ranges but would be less accurate at -5 and -9, which are the settings I'm interested in. I don't calibrate below -9 because I'll never use an iris setting below -9 in HDR, so I don't bother doing the last range (-12 to -15) in that mode.
Makes sense?
Hi Manni, makes sense. I agree with you it is better to choose the preferred condition and calibrate it and avoid a lot of useless and waste of time for options that never will be used.
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You're welcome.
As your Spyder can't be used for color autocal if uncorrected, I would suggest to get an i1pro2 or compatible if you want the Autocal to do the color calibration, or to correct your Spyder using the spreadsheet method (original ChadB method or my slightly modified or modified one). It's quite involved and I haven't described it in detail here as I've updated it to work better irrespective of the actual gamut cover, but you can find the gist of it in the old calibration thread in the meantime. A simpler version is to only correct white, which already improves things a lot for RGB balance across the whole greyscale and works irrespective of the target gamut (as the target is always D65).
(https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-53.html#post51480801)https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-49.html#post50950289 (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-49.html#post50950289)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-53.html#post51480801
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-63.html#post53770137 (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-63.html#post53770137)
I'll try to post more about this here when I find the time to document my new method.
Also I forgot to say that if you're using the Spyder facing the PJ, you have to select the correct screen code after calibration to take the screen into account. This might significantly reduce your errors if your screen material isn't color neutral. A link to the screen codes is listed in the second post.
Thanks Manni. Mine is spyderx facing the screen. I forgot to mention that I used the screen code, which gave me perfect gray scale and color sweep, delta E less than 1.
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Thanks Manni. Mine is spyderx facing the screen. I forgot to mention that I used the screen code, which gave me perfect gray scale and color sweep, delta E less than 1.
Yes, but wait until a few hundred hours... :)
by the way, when/if you use a meter facing the screen for color calibration, you can’t use the screen offset anymore. At the moment it only works (in low lamp only) because you haven’t done a color calibration yet, but again, it’s just lucky and it won’t last very long. So make the most of it while you can!
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Manni, have you had a chance by now to evaluate the spyder X with autocal ?
Or is the spyder 5 + autocol V11 still the current recommendation ?
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Manni, have you had a chance by now to evaluate the spyder X with autocal ?
Or is the spyder 5 + autocol V11 still the current recommendation ?
Nope, still waiting to get the new beta for Calman R3 with Spyder X support. I was hoping to get it this week-end but it doesn't look like it's going to happen, and I'm away for work most of the week next week, so hopefully next week-end.
In the meantime, Spyder 5 and V11 (if you have access to them) is the safe way to go, preferably with an i1pro2 or similar of course.
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As promised, I managed to get a beta of Calman 2019 R3 that supports the Spyder X.
Unfortunately there was still an issue with madVR (madTPG didn't work as a source when the 3D LUT is enabled), so I wasn't able to execute my plan which was to have a 3D LUT with near-reference results as a baseline to test the Spyder X. However, the results after the Autocal are close enough, so that will have to do.
Here is what I've done, using my rec-709 picture mode (rec-709, D65, gamma 2.4) to have a gamut cover close to 100%:
1) I've run a color only Autocal with V12 using the i1pro2
2) I've run a gamma only Autocal with V12 using the Spyder X
I measured that calibration with my Discus trained to my i1pro2, and I called these results "reference", even though they are not as no 3D LUT is applied. This is the result of the JVC Autocal V12 after setting 100% white to D65 (it needed something like -3 on green and -4 on blue).
The resulting calibration is excellent, both for the greyscale (dE ITP average under 2), gamut (dE2000 Max under 2, average under 1 both for sat and lum) and colorchecker XXL (I stopped it after 400 points out of 1500 or so with a dE2000 Max of 1.5, average dE of 0.6). Frankly this is close to reference and I would be happy without a LUT if I couldn't use one.
Then I measured this near perfect calibration with the Spyder X (the same one that I used to do the gamma only calibration with Autocal V12), without any correction, using the LCD preset. This is how the Autocal sees your PJ if you use the Spyder for color. The results are very poor for both gamut (dE Max above 5, average above 2 for both sat and lum) and greyscale (dE ITP average above 5).
This means that if you had a near-perfect PJ, using the Spyder for color would make it significantly worse.
I also ran a colorchecker XXL with the Spyder X trained to the i1pro2, and it showed that it was very poor near black (errors above 6dE2000, probably much higher in ICP, taking luminance into account). It's a shame because it's about 50% faster than my discus, but clearly it can't be used to measure near black accurately, even with a fixed black. Using low light handler didn't make any difference with these errors (I checked). Of course the Spyder X is unable to measure black, it returns 0.0137 for black instead of 0.0019 in SDR), which means a contrast of 4,795:1 instead of the actual contrast close to 40,000:1.
So this confirms:
1) There is nothing wrong with the Autocal V12 used with the i1pro2 for color only and the SpyderX for gamma only. The results are excellent and close to reference.
2) This specific SpyderX unit couldn't be used for color. It is red deficient (significantly) as can be seen on the greyscale measurement. I have never seen a Spyder measure that poorly from an RGB balance point of view, and when I compared it to my Spyder 5, the 5 was much better for balance, but significantly worse for luminance. So as always, getting a good spyder for color is a complete lottery. However, this confirms that even a poor spyder will deliver excellent results as long as you use it for gamma only.
3) The usual recommendation stands: DO NOT USE A SPYDER FOR COLOR AUTOCAL unless you are either able to verify it against a known good meter, or correct it using the spreadsheet method and a custom color profile. Using an i1pro2 (or compatible) is the easiest/best way to get great results and near-reference calibration using the Autocal.
4) If you don't have a Spyder yet, it's fine to buy a Spyder X as long as you use it for gamma only. V12 works fine and is much faster for gamma thanks to the support of the Spyder X.
5) If you already have both the 5 and the X, it's fine to use the X with V12 (it's much faster), again as long as you use it for gamma only.
Have fun calibrating!
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Hi Manni,
So I have the SpyderX and was thinking of trying to correct the color calibration with Chad's spreadsheet method using custom color profiles and Calman software. Is the Calman software free or if not how much is it? Would you have a link to the Calman calibration software site? I would assume doing the color calibration first with the Spyderx, correct with Calman and the spreadsheet method, then do the gamma with the Spyderx. Is that the correct?
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Hi Manni,
So I have the SpyderX and was thinking of trying to correct the color calibration with Chad's spreadsheet method using custom color profiles and Calman software. Is the Calman software free or if not how much is it? Would you have a link to the Calman calibration software site? I would assume doing the color calibration first with the Spyderx, correct with Calman and the spreadsheet method, then do the gamma with the Spyderx. Is that the correct?
No, unfortunately it's more complicated than that, as explained in the links already provided.
You have to create a custom color profile using the spreadsheet to compensate for the errors of the Spyder. Please follow the links that I provided a few posts back in the thread (they should also be linked to in the index in post 2). For Calman, please follow https://www.portrait.com/calman-calibration-software/ (https://www.portrait.com/calman-calibration-software/). Calman is paid for, but you only need a version that would allow you to load Chad's spreadsheet (or my modified version).
Alternatively, you could only correct white, there is no need for a spreadsheet to do that, and you could use a free software like HCFR to achieve this, but it's not beginner stuff. Please let's keep the discussions on Calman and HFCR off the thread, at least until I (or someone else) posts here a method to correct the spyder.
I plan to do this at some point as ChadB's method has some limitations, but I don't have the time at the moment (or the inclination as the i1pro2 does a perfect job).
I would highly recommend to spend a few hundred on an i1pro2 clone, it's so much easier (and more accurate) than the spreadsheet method. I love Calman, and I highly recommend it, but I wouldn't buy it just for that.
EDIT: Also, you need a known-good meter to correct the Spyder. Which meter do you own that is more accurate than the Spyder and can be used to correct it?
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Well done Manni, now as I have both the X and the I1Pro2 there's no more waiting, let's do it ....!
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No, unfortunately it's more complicated than that, as explained in the links already provided.
You have to create a custom color profile using the spreadsheet to compensate for the errors of the Spyder. Please follow the links that I provided a few posts back in the thread (they should also be linked to in the index in post 2). For Calman, please follow https://www.portrait.com/calman-calibration-software/ (https://www.portrait.com/calman-calibration-software/). Calman is paid for, but you only need a version that would allow you to load Chad's spreadsheet (or my modified version).
Alternatively, you could only correct white, there is no need for a spreadsheet to do that, and you could use a free software like HCFR to achieve this, but it's not beginner stuff. Please let's keep the discussions on Calman and HFCR off the thread, at least until I (or someone else) posts here a method to correct the spyder.
I plan to do this at some point as ChadB's method has some limitations, but I don't have the time at the moment (or the inclination as the i1pro2 does a perfect job).
I would highly recommend to spend a few hundred on an i1pro2 clone, it's so much easier (and more accurate) than the spreadsheet method. I love Calman, and I highly recommend it, but I wouldn't buy it just for that.
EDIT: Also, you need a known-good meter to correct the Spyder. Which meter do you own that is more accurate than the Spyder and can be used to correct it?
Unfortunately I just have the SpyderX meter. Can you link a site to get a i1Pro2 clone? I don't mind spending a few hundred for the clone, but just can't pony up over 1k for the i1Pro2.
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The clone is an EFI ES-2000, but it's not a clone really, the spectro is an actual I1Pro2 only the label stuck on it is different.
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The clone is an EFI ES-2000, but it's not a clone really, the spectro is an actual I1Pro2 only the label stuck on it is different.
Do you have a link to get one for a few hundred dollars? So far a search revealed it costs over 1k.
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Unintentionally raising my black floor:
Hello, I recently did a gamma 2.2 autocal (spyder x) and color autocal (ipro 2) on my JVC rs2000.
Afterwards, I checked my results with chromapure/id3pro and it tracked gamma 2.2 perfectly with no adjustments needed. Same with the color, no adjustments needed.
However, now I have to set my black level/brightness to -4 (which looks great after I adjust the brightness level). Has anyone else had this happen? Just wondering if its normal that the gamma autocal can sometimes cause the black floor to be raised, or maybe I messed up somewhere along the way?
Any thoughts/feedback would be appreciated!
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Do you have a link to get one for a few hundred dollars? So far a search revealed it costs over 1k.
As far as I know they are no longer available new, only 2nd hand, there are a few on the US bay.
You may also look for the previous model ES-1000 same as the x-rite I1 Pro1 that is also supported by autocal ( See page 1).
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Unintentionally raising my black floor:
Hello, I recently did a gamma 2.2 autocal (spyder x) and color autocal (ipro 2) on my JVC rs2000.
Afterwards, I checked my results with chromapure/id3pro and it tracked gamma 2.2 perfectly with no adjustments needed. Same with the color, no adjustments needed.
However, now I have to set my black level/brightness to -4 (which looks great after I adjust the brightness level). Has anyone else had this happen? Just wondering if its normal that the gamma autocal can sometimes cause the black floor to be raised, or maybe I messed up somewhere along the way?
Any thoughts/feedback would be appreciated!
Gamma calibration shouldn't have any impact on the black floor, as it doesn't touch black or white, only in between.
How do you set your black level? Do you barely see level 17? If you raise brightness to -3 or -2, do you see the difference when using hide / no hide?
Brightness at -4 doesn't sound wrong through. I usually need -2 or -3 to set black properly, and there is unit to unit variation, so I wouldn't worry about that.
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Gamma calibration shouldn't have any impact on the black floor, as it doesn't touch black or white, only in between.
How do you set your black level? Do you barely see level 17? If you raise brightness to -3 or -2, do you see the difference when using hide / no hide?
Brightness at -4 doesn't sound wrong through. I usually need -2 or -3 to set black properly, and there is unit to unit variation, so I wouldn't worry about that.
Thank you Manni! I was using the brightness pattern on my disney WOW disc. But I am going to read up on how you do it with the hide function too.
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Doesn't need to be a clone even.
I got my i1Pro2 for $390 on eBay. Was considered a "used" item.
It looked completely untouched and unused. Not a scuff or speck of dust or anything on it. Still had the silica gel pack in there and the sticker over the USB port.
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Thank you Manni! I was using the brightness pattern on my disney WOW disc. But I am going to read up on how you do it with the hide function too.
Maybe a better way to do it is to use the inbuild masks set to their maximum extent, this gives you a real time reference area as opposed to the hide where it takes several seconds to switch thus loosing the reference.
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Doesn't need to be a clone even.
I got my i1Pro2 for $390 on eBay. Was considered a "used" item.
It looked completely untouched and unused. Not a scuff or speck of dust or anything on it. Still had the silica gel pack in there and the sticker over the USB port.
That's a screaming deal!
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Doesn't need to be a clone even.
I got my i1Pro2 for $390 on eBay. Was considered a "used" item.
It looked completely untouched and unused. Not a scuff or speck of dust or anything on it. Still had the silica gel pack in there and the sticker over the USB port.
Even better if you are the lucky one, got mine brand new too as a shop shutdown clearance.
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I waited about 2 months for my i1 Pro 2 deal to come around on eBay.
Just set eBay product alerts for i1 Pro 2 and EFI ES-2000 and be patient.
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No, unfortunately it's more complicated than that, as explained in the links already provided.
You have to create a custom color profile using the spreadsheet to compensate for the errors of the Spyder. Please follow the links that I provided a few posts back in the thread (they should also be linked to in the index in post 2). For Calman, please follow https://www.portrait.com/calman-calibration-software/ (https://www.portrait.com/calman-calibration-software/). Calman is paid for, but you only need a version that would allow you to load Chad's spreadsheet (or my modified version).
Alternatively, you could only correct white, there is no need for a spreadsheet to do that, and you could use a free software like HCFR to achieve this, but it's not beginner stuff. Please let's keep the discussions on Calman and HFCR off the thread, at least until I (or someone else) posts here a method to correct the spyder.
I plan to do this at some point as ChadB's method has some limitations, but I don't have the time at the moment (or the inclination as the i1pro2 does a perfect job).
I would highly recommend to spend a few hundred on an i1pro2 clone, it's so much easier (and more accurate) than the spreadsheet method. I love Calman, and I highly recommend it, but I wouldn't buy it just for that.
EDIT: Also, you need a known-good meter to correct the Spyder. Which meter do you own that is more accurate than the Spyder and can be used to correct it?
I would add that the biggest limitation of ChadB’s method is that it can’t be applied in combination with DTM, because that mode does not allow you selecting a custom color profile. it is still helpful with usual static mapping and SDR though.
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I waited about 2 months for my i1 Pro 2 deal to come around on eBay.
Just set eBay product alerts for i1 Pro 2 and EFI ES-2000 and be patient.
thanks. Will try that :) Figured the EFI ES-2000 would be cheaper since it doesn't include the calibration software - which I won't use anyway with autocal.
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I would add that the biggest limitation of ChadB’s method is that it can’t be applied in combination with DTM, because that mode does not allow you selecting a custom color profile. it is still helpful with usual static mapping and SDR though.
DTM is supposed to share the same calibration as HDR10 (if you select the same filter configuration), but unfortunately it has its own greyscale tracking errors which can't be corrected even with a good meter.
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DTM is supposed to share the same calibration as HDR10 (if you select the same filter configuration), but unfortunately it has its own greyscale tracking errors which can't be corrected even with a good meter.
The problem is not the greyscale. ChadB’s method is based on creating a custom color profile (nothing related to greys or gamma) to compensate the inaccuracy of autocal made with spyder x or spyder 5. But unfortunately DTM does not allow to select it.
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I get your point. However, even with an accurate meter (which would not require correction using ChadB's method), there is still the grey scale tracking problem which manifests itself as a tinted white/grey at some points on the grey scale range; what's worse is it's un-correctable with the current design.
ChadB's method won't help with this issue even if you could select a custom colour profile for Frame Adapt HDR.
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When placing the Spyder5, how far, more or less, from the lens should be placed?
I ask because it is your manual Spyder is represented near the screen.
I have put it at 1 meter and the measures have not been very good, much inconsistency.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
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When placing the Spyder5, how far, more or less, from the lens should be placed?
I ask because it is your manual Spyder is represented near the screen.
I have put it at 1 meter and the measures have not been very good, much inconsistency.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
Please read the basic section, especially the preparation (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10389#msg10389) post. The Spyder 5 isn't shown near the screen, that's the discus and i1pro2. That's also where you would put a Spyder X.
The Spyder 5 is shown facing the lens, in another picture. To position it, follow the instructions in that post.
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The optimal distance depends on your zoom, lamp power, manual iris etc. Go by the feedback the software provides, and keep the meter closer to the right edge of the orange box.
No need to repeat or requote what’s in the basic section. It clutters the thread unnecessarily.
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I wanted to say 1 meter from the lens of the project ... Is that correct?
Thank you.
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I wanted to say 1 meter from the lens of the project ... Is that correct?
Thank you.
There is not one distance good for everyone, as Dominic tried to explain.
The reason why I'm asking you to read the post I linked in my previous post (as well as the whole basic section) is because it explains clearly what you have to do (which Dominic has also done in his post above).
If you still have questions after reading the basic section and the FAQ, feel free to ask them.
Otherwise, if we answer basic questions such as this one, you will ask another one, and another one... :)
Please do your homework (it doesn't take long) and we'll be happy to help afterwards if anything is still unclear.
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Hi Manni,
I need some help. I just got a used ES 2000 and trying to use it in autocal. I plugged the device in and autocal does not see the device. It is saying "cannot detect sensor, check again" I plugged the device in the usb port and placed it on the calibration device as instructed. Waited about 10 seconds and clicked on the icon in the autocal. In device manager it says the device is working properly. Maybe I have the wrong driver? I found the driver in the DisplayCal software. I attached a picture of the driver. Also no indicator light on the device when I plug it in. I tried to press the side button on the sensor but still nothing.
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Hi Manni,
I need some help. I just got a used ES 2000 and trying to use it in autocal. I plugged the device in and autocal does not see the device. It is saying "cannot detect sensor, check again" I plugged the device in the usb port and placed it on the calibration device as instructed. Waited about 10 seconds and clicked on the icon in the autocal. In device manager it says the device is working properly. Maybe I have the wrong driver? I found the driver in the DisplayCal software. I attached a picture of the driver. Also no indicator light on the device when I plug it in. I tried to press the side button on the sensor but still nothing.
Hi there,
The DisplayCAL (ArgyllCMS) driver isn't compatible with the JVC Autocal, which needs the Windows driver. You need to disable the the Argyll driver (or uninstall it) to allow the windows x-rite driver to be loaded. It should appear under x-rite in the device configuration. Then the Autocal should be able to see it. I think DisplayCAL has somewhere instructions regarding how to swap between the OS drivers and the Argyll drivers, but that's a big downside of Argyll, at least for the i1pro2, and one of the reasons why I use CM, as I can have the same drivers for all the software I use/need (JVC autocal, CM and LS).
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Hi there,
The DisplayCAL (ArgyllCMS) driver isn't compatible with the JVC Autocal, which needs the Windows driver. You need to disable the the Argyll driver (or uninstall it) to allow the windows x-rite driver to be loaded. It should appear under x-rite in the device configuration. Then the Autocal should be able to see it. I think DisplayCAL has somewhere instructions regarding how to swap between the OS drivers and the Argyll drivers, but that's a big downside of Argyll, at least for the i1pro2, and one of the reasons why I use CM, as I can have the same drivers for all the software I use/need (JVC autocal, CM and LS).
Hi Manni
Yes, I had to uninstall the ArgyllCMS driver and find the x-rite driver online. Now it works! I wanted to check my color results from the SpyderX color calibration to see how off it is. So do i Just chose log only in settings and not save the results? In the end it should show the delta E's correct?
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Yes that is a bit of a pain, as HCFR requires the ArgyllCMS driver too, if you want to use an I1Pro2 or ES-2000 with both Autocal and HCFR you have to uninstall then re-install the driver ..... :-X
Fortunately for me I can use the Spyder X and ES-2000 for Autocal and the i1 Display Pro for HCFR, so no more driver switching.
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Hi Manni
Yes, I had to uninstall the ArgyllCMS driver and find the x-rite driver online. Now it works! I wanted to check my color results from the SpyderX color calibration to see how off it is. So do i Just chose log only in settings and not save the results? In the end it should show the delta E's correct?
Yes it should, though I never found the dEs in the JVC Autocal log very readable. I use CM for verification. Anyway the log should give you an idea, but frankly I’d just do a color only autocal with the ES2000, that’s why you bought it for :) there is no point keeping the old Spyder X color cal, unless you want to know how far off it is.
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Yes that is a bit of a pain, as HCFR requires the ArgyllCMS driver too, if you want to use an I1Pro2 or ES-2000 with both Autocal and HCFR you have to uninstall then re-install the driver ..... :-X
Fortunately for me I can use the Spyder X and ES-2000 for Autocal and the i1 Display Pro for HCFR, so no more driver switching.
I use both HCFR and Autocal and leave both drivers installed, selecting the appropriate one as required. The process is explained in the ArgyllCMS web page.
To make it even easier, you can use different USB ports for the two drivers and Windows will select the correct driver depending on the port.
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I use both HCFR and Autocal and leave both drivers installed, selecting the appropriate one as required. The process is explained in the ArgyllCMS web page.
To make it even easier, you can use different USB ports for the two drivers and Windows will select the correct driver depending on the port.
Yes I remember (and mentioned) the process of switching drivers being explained in DisplayCAL, but it was still very cumbersome to have to do so, especially when using both software at the same time (as I do).
Does using the different USB port number mean that you can leave both the Windows driver and the Argyll driver installed, so that the Autocal find the i1pro2 and the software using argyll can find it too without any manual selection process?
By the way, it's nice to have you here :)
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Unfortunately on my laptop that I use to run Autocal and HCFR I only have one 3.0 usb port that gives enough current to drive the I1Pro2, if I use the other 2.0 port the I1Pro2 does not pass the calibration step.
But I will give it another try to see if I can install both drivers concurently.
By the way I am running Windows 10 Home 1909, nothing newer as far as I know.
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Yes I remember (and mentioned) the process of switching drivers being explained in DisplayCAL, but it was still very cumbersome to have to do so, especially when using both software at the same time (as I do).
Does using the different USB port number mean that you can leave both the Windows driver and the Argyll driver installed, so that the Autocal find the i1pro2 and the software using argyll can find it too without any manual selection process?
By the way, it's nice to have you here :)
Let’s say you plug the i1Pro2 into USB1 port and select the x-rite driver, then plug it into USB2 and install the ArgyllCMS driver (no need to uninstall the x-rite driver). Once that’s done, Windows will automatically use the x-rite driver if it sees the i1Pro2 connected to USB1, and use the ArgyllCMS driver if the i1Pro2 is connected to USB2. No manual selection process is involved other than plugging it into the “right” port.
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OK ! I just forgot to disable the Win's control of the driver's signature, once disabled I've been able to load the ArgyllCMS driver, and now via the device manager I have a choice of 2 drivers : i1 Pro and Eye-One Pro (Argyll) ! :)
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OK ! I just forgot to disable the Win's control of the driver's signature, once disabled I've been able to load the ArgyllCMS driver, and now via the device manager I have a choice of 2 drivers : i1 Pro and Eye-One Pro (Argyll) ! :)
Yes, that's always been the case, but it still means swapping drivers manually.
More interesting is Dominic's suggestion to use a different USB port for each driver.
I'll try that next time I have to install DisplayCAL, but I'm not sure if it will work with a USB HUB.
If it does, great. It would be nice to be able to swap between Argyll and Windows drivers almost seamlessly.
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In theory, it shouldn't make any difference which one you do first. In practice, I think color first would be better, but I haven't confirmed this and that's one of the things I'd like to rule out in my upcoming V11/V12 comparison.
Yes, gamma autocal is performed separately on the three primary colors, as can be seen during the autocal process. Otherwise, the accuracy of the spyder on white/grey would be an issue and it doesn't seem to be the case.
The three gamma curves often droop independently, resulting in different colour temperature readings for different input levels. The log summary reports two readings (at 50% and 100%), and the picture shows a cluster of 8 readings which can be quite far apart if gamma autocal has not been run.
If colour autocal uses only the 100% point then it makes no difference whether it's run first (since gamma autocal uses the 100% point as reference). However, if colour autocal uses some sort of weighted average of the 8 points, then doing gamma first would work better.
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The three gamma curves often droop independently, resulting in different colour temperature readings for different input levels. The log summary reports two readings (at 50% and 100%), and the picture shows a cluster of 8 readings which can be quite far apart if gamma autocal has not been run.
If colour autocal uses only the 100% point then it makes no difference whether it's run first (since gamma autocal uses the 100% point as reference). However, if colour autocal uses some sort of weighted average of the 8 points, then doing gamma first would work better.
It would make more sense to do gamma first as that's what the autocal does when you do a gamma+color autocal. It might be why I've never noticed a difference, I've almost always done gamma first with the iris fully open, then the various color autocals with the different iris positions (as and if needed).
I guess this would need to be tested to be sure, but it's fairly low on my priority list given that gamma then color works very well.
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@LeFric
Please post in English, even if you use google translate, or post your questions in a Spanish forum :)
I can only reply in English.
As you're using a Spyder 5 with V11 (not a Spyder X with V12), you need to move the meter AWAY from the lens, so CLOSER to the screen, but still facing the lens, and in the axis (NOT off-axis).
This is how you get the icon of the meter in the box, not by moving the Spyder off-axis. The software clearly shows you that the meter is TOO CLOSE to the lens, so simply back away.
Hopefully this will allow you to get better results.
Let us know (but in English) :)
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Mistake... :-\
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I have replied in my post just above yours.
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I have replied in my post just above yours.
Mistake... (https://discuss.avscience.com/Smileys/flat_emoji/undecided.gif)
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I am using JVC AutoCAL 8 (v1.20)
Which model are you calibrating? Is it a 4K 2019 model?
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Unfortunately on my laptop that I use to run Autocal and HCFR I only have one 3.0 usb port that gives enough current to drive the I1Pro2, if I use the other 2.0 port the I1Pro2 does not pass the calibration step.
But I will give it another try to see if I can install both drivers concurently.
By the way I am running Windows 10 Home 1909, nothing newer as far as I know.
I have a Lenovo Yoga laptop which only has one USB port. I guess I can use a lightning to USB adapter on one of the lightning ports. I am also running Win10 Home 1909.
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Once the two drivers are installed, using the device manager it only takes a few steps to switch, and one does not need to switch that often really.
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¿Qué modelo estás calibrando? ¿Es un modelo 4K 2019?
Mistake... (https://discuss.avscience.com/Smileys/flat_emoji/undecided.gif)
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JVC DLA-Z1
Sorry no idea how this one works, this thread is only for V11/V12 and the 2019 4K models. You should ask in the Z1 thread if my suggestion to move the Spyder back while keeping it on axis doesn't help and if no one else here can see what the issue is. It's a laser model and I never calibrated one or used V8, so I can't help.
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Has anyone run autocal using the HDR10 Picture Mode and verified the results using independent software (HCFR, CalMAN etc)?
I restored my Init file to investigate an issue with Auto Iris, which brought back the blue gamma droop (manifesting as an increasing colour temperature as input level drops; see first attachment). After running gamma autocal the After log shows the issue fixed (see second attachment), but the HCFR grey scale shows no improvement at all with the blue gamma droop.
I ended up re-running gamma autocal using the Natural and Cinema Picture Modes, and then the gamma droop got fixed for HDR10, with and without filter.
I had a similar issue with the e-shift models - some calibration results did not "stick".
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Hi Dominic,
No I didn't experience this, but I never calibrate HDR10, I only calibrate User1 (Rec-709, BT1886, D65, low lamp, no filter, iris -12) and User2 (DCI-P3, 2.2, D65, low lamp, filter, iris open). This usually gets HDR10 fine (BT2020, PQ, D65, filter on, iris open).
I do plan to run some tests to investigate why some complain about DTM mode not being calibrated after calibrating HDR10, this might be connected. In my experience, DTM seems to be calibrated fine, but again I don't autocal HDR10 but User2.
I run some tests when I find the time and will report back.
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Hi Dominic,
No I didn't experience this, but I never calibrate HDR10, I only calibrate User1 (Rec-709, BT1886, D65, low lamp, no filter, iris -12) and User2 (DCI-P3, 2.2, D65, low lamp, filter, iris open). This usually gets HDR10 fine (BT2020, PQ, D65, filter on, iris open).
I do plan to run some tests to investigate why some complain about DTM mode not being calibrated after calibrating HDR10, this might be connected. In my experience, DTM seems to be calibrated fine, but again I don't autocal HDR10 but User2.
I run some tests when I find the time and will report back.
Hi Manni, I take it your user1 calibration as above is for SDR viewing and your user2 for HDR ?
Any reason to not calibrate Natural or HDR10 modes instead ?
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Hi Manni, I take it your user1 calibration as above is for SDR viewing and your user2 for HDR ?
Any reason to not calibrate Natural or HDR10 modes instead ?
User 1 is for SDR rec-709
User 2 is for DCI-P3 for madVR HDR to SDR tonemapping
I use natural for HDTV (sdr 709 with CMD low) as I use it mostly for sports
I don't use HDR10, especially now that we have a DTM mode that's far superior (yet still not as good as madVR). That's the mode I use for streaming UHD HDR content from my UB900, until I get the Envy.
The only use for HDR10 is to run an autocal, as you can't autocal DTM directly, though it seems to me that it works just as well if not better to autocal my user2 (DCI-P3).
I'll report back when I find the time to run more tests re DTM calibration.
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Has anyone run autocal using the HDR10 Picture Mode and verified the results using independent software (HCFR, CalMAN etc)?
I restored my Init file to investigate an issue with Auto Iris, which brought back the blue gamma droop (manifesting as an increasing colour temperature as input level drops; see first attachment). After running gamma autocal the After log shows the issue fixed (see second attachment), but the HCFR grey scale shows no improvement at all with the blue gamma droop.
I ended up re-running gamma autocal using the Natural and Cinema Picture Modes, and then the gamma droop got fixed for HDR10, with and without filter.
I had a similar issue with the e-shift models - some calibration results did not "stick".
I experienced something very similar using Spyder 5 for gamma and i1 pro2 with autocal 11 v1.20.
I performed an autocal with HDR10 and I got a very bad color temperature behavior like you described (please see first picture).
After having read your message, I tried to calibrate same combination (High lamp, Wide filter, Aperture = -1) but without using HDR10... And I got an almost perfect alignment (see second picture).
It looks like HDR10 has to be avoided during calibration. After all what really matters is the combination of parameters, as the manual says. I had a suspect that something was wrong when I saw that the post-cal log screens were showing as reference a 2.2 line for the gamma and the REC709 triangle for the color.
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Hi Manni, you've got a download somewhere your color profile for (DCI-P3, 2.2, D65, low lamp, filter, iris open). I am just now experimenting with MadVR and Lumagen Radiance PRO and i think that the DCI-P3 profile could be a better option for me if i will use SDR tonemapping too.
Thank you
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Hi Manni, you've got a download somewhere your color profile for (DCI-P3, 2.2, D65, low lamp, filter, iris open). I am just now experimenting with MadVR and Lumagen Radiance PRO and i think that the DCI-P3 profile could be a better option for me if i will use SDR tonemapping too.
Thank you
Hi Riddle,
You don't need a custom profile with these new models as long as you plan to use the filter, and it's much better to use the factory one. Simply select DCI instead of rec-709 or BT2020.
P3 is only preferable if you use a 3D LUT, to limit posterization. If you don't use a 3D LUT, it makes more sense to use a BT2020/2.4 baseline, because that's compatible with the tonemapping of consumer sources (such as a bluray player) if you want to compare madVR tonemapping with other sources, or have non-HTPC sources.
Either way, there is no need for custom profiles in the new models, as they have DCI-P3-F (DCI) and both BT-2020-F ( BT2020) and BT-2020-NF (HDR) options in the factory profiles. You would only need a custom profile if you wanted to use DCI-P3-NF (no filter) or Rec-709-F (filter), as these are not yet implemented in the firmware.
Happy New Year everyone! :)
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Hi Manni, yes that's exactly what i want to test. I would like to compare playback via MadVR HTPC VS Lumagen Radiance PRO and decide what to use and for this reasons i will try DCI-P3-F (DCI).
Thnak you
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Hi Manni, yes that's exactly what i want to test. I would like to compare playback via MadVR HTPC VS Lumagen Radiance PRO and decide what to use and for this reasons i will try DCI-P3-F (DCI).
Thnak you
You're welcome. Again, if you don't use a 3D LUT, BT2020 will give as good or better results as DCI, as long as you autocal it properly and the saturations are tracking well. You can measure DCI within BT2020 to check for this.
If your native gamut covers more than DCI-P3, you might get better results with BT2020.
If your native gamut doesn't cover more than DCI-P3, it shouldn't make any difference, unless you use a 3D LUT, in which case you'll most likely get better results with DCI-P3.
As long as saturations track properly and you don't use a 3D LUT over the Autocal, it's better to use the gamut that has the widest cover, as it might give you better color with the few titles that are mastered to BT2020 (there are quite a few now), assuming there is content beyond DCI-P3 in these titles, which is another question...
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With my JVC N7 i can get somethink closer to 96-97% on DCI-P3. Manni which 3D LUT you are using on your MadVR?
Thank you
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With my JVC N7 i can get somethink closer to 96-97% on DCI-P3. Manni which 3D LUT you are using on your MadVR?
Thank you
Then DCI-P3 is fine. I use a Lightning LUT made with Calman (about 100 points, under 10 minutes). After an Autocal, there is no need for a bigger LUT, as long as you cover near to 100% of the target gamut, which is your case.
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Anyone had experience where importing the init file has not returned the projector to the original brightness?
This is on a NX7 running 3.1 software and V11 (I am still using a Spyder5Pro so I can't use V12)
I have tried powering off the PJ after the import and that doesn't make any difference. This is all with the projector having less than 60hours on the lamp.
When I first set the PJ up for SDR I would get 85 nits low lamp and -6 aperture for 60nits. Now even after importing the init file, I get 75 nits and well under 50 nits at -6. High lamp is similarly down from 127 nits to 114 nits.
Any ideas? I think I saw this with my previous NX7 too, but I wasn't as precise with my measurements last time, so I can't be sure.
Thanks
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Restoring the init file doesn’t restore the initial brightness, it restores the factory calibration tables. Your lamp could have lost a significant amount of brightness over the first 60 hours. It could even get some of that brightness back in the next 60 hours. I have measured JVCs at a few hundred hours that had more brightness than when new. It’s pretty much unpredictable.
Losing 10% in 60 hours is more than usual if it’s only due to the bulb aging (and not to calibration), but it can happen, especially with long sessions in high lamp in a non temp controlled room. It should be fairly stable for a few hundred hours once it’s gone through its initial drop.
However, make sure that you also reset the RGB gains settings, as the init file only restores the calibration tables, it doesn’t touch the settings. So if you had set the gains to reach D65, you need to reset the gains setting after restoring the init file, or do a factory reset (which resets the settings but not the calibration tables).
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Hi Manni, thanks very much for the response.
Yes I use high lamp for HDR so that would fit within your experience.
It is good to know this is somewhat normal.
Cheers Stephen
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No, it's not the complete state of the projector, as explained in my former post. It's only the complete calibration tables (all the calibration tables, so the current state of the projector as far as internal calibration tables are concerned, not just the last one). It doesn't include any of the settings.
One behaviour that puzzled me is that restoring one of my own back-up file takes a few seconds, whereas restoring the Init file takes about 30 minutes. What additional “work” does autocal do with the Init file?
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One behaviour that puzzled me is that restoring one of my own back-up file takes a few seconds, whereas restoring the Init file takes about 30 minutes. What additional “work” does autocal do with the Init file?
INIT is all the calibration tables.
Your own back up file is just for 1 user mode as far as I know.
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Here is a list of suggestions for future versions that would significantly improve the use of the software.
Feel free to contribute if you have any (reasonable) suggestion. I'll try to get this to JVCs through my contacts once we've gathered enough feedback.
The ability to save the Before and After logs would be useful. Currently they just scroll by as the calibration progresses with no provisions to scroll back.
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The ability to save the Before and After logs would be useful. Currently they just scroll by as the calibration progresses with no provisions to scroll back.
Added to the list. I agree it would be nice, but I wouldn't hold my breath. There are too many more important improvements on the list. But you never know, sometimes, easy stuff get added before more important changes...
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Added to the list. I agree it would be nice, but I wouldn't hold my breath. There are too many more important improvements on the list. But you never know, sometimes, easy stuff get added before more important changes...
Greetings,
Manni, if you had your druthers, which meter would you use, the SpyderX or Spyder5 Pro? I have the Spyder5 Pro but haven't been exactly pleased with the gamma calibration results. I find that brightness takes a bit more of a hit than I would like afterward. I am leaning toward trying the SpyderX to see if the results are any different.
Thanks!
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Greetings,
Manni, if you had your druthers, which meter would you use, the SpyderX or Spyder5 Pro? I have the Spyder5 Pro but haven't been exactly pleased with the gamma calibration results. I find that brightness takes a bit more of a hit than I would like afterward. I am leaning toward trying the SpyderX to see if the results are any different.
Thanks!
Gamma calibration shouldn't really affect your brightness. As in it doesn't affect your peak white level which is how we measure brightness.
What the gamma calibration does is make all the shades between black and white the correct brightness. If you feel that the shades between black and white are too dim then you would want to use a lower gamma.
I don't see a reason why the Spyder5 wouldn't be calibrating your gamma really well unless it's malfunctioning. After the gamma calibration is done it's up to you to choose what gamma to use ad they will all be correctly calibrated to their respective numbers.
If you are thinking it's too dark then use a higher gamma. I use 2.2. Some people use 2.4 but I find it too dark.
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I have the Spyder5 Pro but haven't been exactly pleased with the gamma calibration results. I find that brightness takes a bit more of a hit than I would like afterward.
If you didn’t do any colour calibration but find that the brightness “takes a hit” after gamma calibration, it’s because the Spyder5 has done its job and fixed the gamma droop that was there prior to calibration. :)
A SpyderX would have done the same.
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Greetings,
Manni, if you had your druthers, which meter would you use, the SpyderX or Spyder5 Pro? I have the Spyder5 Pro but haven't been exactly pleased with the gamma calibration results. I find that brightness takes a bit more of a hit than I would like afterward. I am leaning toward trying the SpyderX to see if the results are any different.
Thanks!
Hi Ralph,
Gamma calibration shouldn't take any hit on peak brightness, because the gamma autocal only makes adjustments between black and 100% white, but it doesn't touch either. The main difference between the Spyder 5 and the Spyder X is speed, but the results shouldn't be much different for gamma autocal otherwise, except maybe in the low end.
If you have a brightness hit at 100% white, it's most likely because you did a color autocal, or a gamma+color autocal, and it's the color autocal that has cut the brightness to bring 100% white to what it thinks is D65. A Spyder X could do better or worse, it's a lottery based on each unit, not on the model.
However, if your spyder 5 does overcorrect when doing a color autocal, a Spyder X might improve things. Or make them worse... Still, you could try and either return it if worse, or keep it just for gamma (it's much faster than the Spyder 5, and more importantly works facing the screen, which is a lot more convenient IMO).
If you think you might have run a color autocal by mistake, you can simply restore your INIT file and run a gamma only autocal. This should restore your brightness (unless the loss is due to something else, for example a long calibration session in high lamp). Sometimes the next day that brightness is back.
If you mean that the picture looks less bright but 100% white has not dropped, then it might simply be the correction of the gamma droop (as gamma in the high end was probably too low, making the picture brighter than it should at 50-95% white).
If the picture is darker everywhere, and especially in the low end, you could try a lower gamma in SDR (it doesn't matter in HDR). You don't have to choose between 2.2 and 2.4, you can select 2.3 or any other value selecting custom and whichever value feels better. However, I know you are in a dedicated room, so I would highly suggest you keep 2.4. 2.2 would look washed out.
By the way, we're talking actual gamma, not selected gamma. Often times, even after an autocal, you have to select 2.5 to get 2.4, or 2.3 to get 2.2, so it's worth checking or adjusting by eye, as the value selected isn't necessarily accurate, although it should look fairly flat after an autocal. You can also fine-tune using picture tone in the tri-band gamma adjustment, as it lowers/raises the whole curve with a single setting.
Hope this helps!
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Hi Ralph,
Gamma calibration shouldn't take any hit on peak brightness, because the gamma autocal only makes adjustments between black and 100% white, but it doesn't touch either. The main difference between the Spyder 5 and the Spyder X is speed, but the results shouldn't be much different for gamma autocal otherwise, except maybe in the low end.
If you have a brightness hit at 100% white, it's most likely because you did a color autocal, or a gamma+color autocal, and it's the color autocal that has cut the brightness to bring 100% white to what it thinks is D65. A Spyder X could do better or worse, it's a lottery based on each unit, not on the model.
However, if your spyder 5 does overcorrect when doing a color autocal, a Spyder X might improve things. Or make them worse... Still, you could try and either return it if worse, or keep it just for gamma (it's much faster than the Spyder 5, and more importantly works facing the screen, which is a lot more convenient IMO).
If you think you might have run a color autocal by mistake, you can simply restore your INIT file and run a gamma only autocal. This should restore your brightness (unless the loss is due to something else, for example a long calibration session in high lamp). Sometimes the next day that brightness is back.
If you mean that the picture looks less bright but 100% white has not dropped, then it might simply be the correction of the gamma droop (as gamma in the high end was probably too low, making the picture brighter than it should at 50-95% white).
If the picture is darker everywhere, and especially in the low end, you could try a lower gamma in SDR (it doesn't matter in HDR). You don't have to choose between 2.2 and 2.4, you can select 2.3 or any other value selecting custom and whichever value feels better. However, I know you are in a dedicated room, so I would highly suggest you keep 2.4. 2.2 would look washed out.
By the way, we're talking actual gamma, not selected gamma. Often times, even after an autocal, you have to select 2.5 to get 2.4, or 2.3 to get 2.2, so it's worth checking or adjusting by eye, as the value selected isn't necessarily accurate, although it should look fairly flat after an autocal. You can also fine-tune using picture tone in the tri-band gamma adjustment, as it lowers/raises the whole curve with a single setting.
Hope this helps!
Greetings,
Thanks guys. Yeah, I am aware that a gamma cal really shouldn't impact peak brightness and while I generally find the results to be within tolerances, the image appeared flatter (for lack of a better term) than I was accustomed to. I was curious to get some input and appreciate your responses.
I may give the SpyderX a shot just to see how it handles things in general.
Regards,
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Yeah it's a little odd as your picture should look like it has more depth after gamma autocal as it will in my experience always raise the gamma slightly to correct the droop.
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Greetings,
Thanks guys. Yeah, I am aware that a gamma cal really shouldn't impact peak brightness and while I generally find the results to be within tolerances, the image appeared flatter (for lack of a better term) than I was accustomed to. I was curious to get some input and appreciate your responses.
I may give the SpyderX a shot just to see how it handles things in general.
Regards,
Can you post measurements with your i1d3 showing your gamma and rgb balance measurement after autocal, as well as the peak white before/after? Hard to make any further comments without the actual data.
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Hi Manni,
Thanks again for this great thread.
I am pretty sure I know the answer to this question but just want to confirm.
If I do a two part autocal - Gamma - Spyder5Pro and then Color - i1pro2 - I end up with two files.
If I then subsequently reload the init file.
If I want to get back to my calibrated settings then I just have to reload the second (color) file because it already has the gamma settings from the first file plus the color settings.
Is that correct?
Thanks again.
Stephen
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Hi Manni,
Thanks again for this great thread.
I am pretty sure I know the answer to this question but just want to confirm.
If I do a two part autocal - Gamma - Spyder5Pro and then Color - i1pro2 - I end up with two files.
If I then subsequently reload the init file.
If I want to get back to my calibrated settings then I just have to reload the second (color) file because it already has the gamma settings from the first file plus the color settings.
Is that correct?
Thanks again.
Stephen
My understanding is that the only difference with the INIT file is that it's saved BEFORE any calibration is done. Otherwise, every .cbd file has the same size (25Kb), so as far as I know it saves and restores the same amount of data. I have no idea why restoring an INIT file would take longer.
The way I see it, any calibration file takes you back to the projector state at that time (as per the date/time on the file). It doesn't only restore the calibration you've just made, but all the tables.
So it doesn't make sense to restore the INIT file (delete everything) then to restore another calibration. You should get the same result by restoring the calibration file directly. I know the file puts the calibrated setting in the file name, but that's just a way to help you remember what you were doing.
To answer your question, yes, if you restore your color calibration, it should also restore your gamma calibration (and all the others if applicable).
I haven't tested this recently, so it could be different with this software version, but that's the way I approached my calibration files in the past.
It's a good test to run: restore the init file, then only the color calibration file, and check if your gamma (as well as all your other calibrations) are restored too.
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Thanks Manni,
I will give it a try tonight.
Stephen
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Can you post measurements with your i1d3 showing your gamma and rgb balance measurement after autocal, as well as the peak white before/after? Hard to make any further comments without the actual data.
Greetings,
Will try and get to that when time permits. Thanks Manni!
Regards,
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Hi Manni,
I own an i1pro2 and both spyder 5 and x. Which spyder would you use for gamma? In one of your posts you suggested the newer model (i.e. X), because it is quicker.
My only doubt is about accuracy, especially on lower stimulus. Isn’t the meter facing the screen affecting the ability to read low levels of luminance? With what combination did you get best results?
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Hi Manni,
I own an i1pro2 and both spyder 5 and x. Which spyder would you use for gamma? In one of your posts you suggested the newer model (i.e. X), because it is quicker.
My only doubt is about accuracy, especially on lower stimulus. Isn’t the meter facing the screen affecting the ability to read low levels of luminance? With what combination did you get best results?
I can't talk for your set-up but the Spyder X is a lot more sensitive in low light than the Spyder 5, so that makes up (at least partially) for reading off the screen vs reading off the lens.
Here, the SX with V12 doesn't return any zero reading during gamma autocal, and the results are very good, comparable to the S5 with V11, just delivered a lot faster. It's also a lot more convenient to have all the meters facing the screen (I have the Discus and the SX on the same tripod, on a dual head). So for me it's a no brainer to go with the SX: same results, twice as fast, more convenient.
It's no replacement for the Discus though, I've run verifications and the level or errors with the SX is much higher than with the Discus, both trained to the i1pro2.
Anyway, personally, I prefer to use the SX for gamma only, but I've done my homework and checked the results.
Given that you have both the S5 and the SX, you need to do the same and decide based on your data. You might have a much larger screen, with less gain hence a lot less brightness, and in your case the S5 might be a better choice as you can move it closer to the lens to get it in the right range.
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I don't think I've seen this question addressed before.
I'm ready to do a Gamma only Autocal on my NX7, using a Spyder5 Pro, and Version 11 of the JVC Software.
At this point, I watch exclusively with the Panamorph DCR Lens in place, using Anamorphic Mode C for scope content, and Mode D for 16:9 content.
When doing the Autocal, can/should it be done with the DCR Lens in place, or does it *need* to be removed to do a proper autocal? And if I can do it with the A-lens in place, should I be using Mode C or Mode D, or does it not matter?
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I don't think I've seen this question addressed before.
I'm ready to do a Gamma only Autocal on my NX7, using a Spyder5 Pro, and Version 11 of the JVC Software.
At this point, I watch exclusively with the Panamorph DCR Lens in place, using Anamorphic Mode C for scope content, and Mode D for 16:9 content.
When doing the Autocal, can/should it be done with the DCR Lens in place, or does it *need* to be removed to do a proper autocal? And if I can do it with the A-lens in place, should I be using Mode C or Mode D, or does it not matter?
It shouldn't matter for gamma, but if the Autocal lets you, I would do it with the lens in place and whichever mode is the brightest with the iris fully open.
Maybe someone with a DCR lens can confirm how they do it and if it makes a difference.
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It shouldn't matter for gamma, but if the Autocal lets you, I would do it with the lens in place and whichever mode is the brightest with the iris fully open.
Maybe someone with a DCR lens can confirm how they do it and if it makes a difference.
Thanks for the reply, Manni.
Anamorphic Mode C with the DCR Lens, for scope content, filling my 2.35:1 screen, is by far the brightest, since it is utilizing the full 4096 x 2160 pixels of the chip. It should be providing a 38% or so boost in brightness versus the usual zoom method, and effectively using only 3840 x 1600 pixels of the chip.
I'll wait until tomorrow to do it, to see if anybody using the DCR lens posts with a rationale for doing it differently.
Not knowing the accuracy of my particular Spyder5 for color, and not having another meter to check it, I'm reluctant to use it for Color Autocal, as you and others have advised. I have used it consistently with my prior RS400, and saw no obvious problems. I think I have a fairly keen eye in terms of colors, proper color temperature, and so forth, from many years of editing Raw still DSLR image in Photoshop, with a calibrated monitor, but it's certainly possible there were inaccuracies I wasn't identifying.
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Thanks for the reply, Manni.
Anamorphic Mode C with the DCR Lens, for scope content, filling my 2.35:1 screen, is by far the brightest, since it is utilizing the full 4096 x 2160 pixels of the chip. It should be providing a 38% or so boost in brightness versus the usual zoom method, and effectively using only 3840 x 1600 pixels of the chip.
I'll wait until tomorrow to do it, to see if anybody using the DCR lens posts with a rationale for doing it differently.
Not knowing the accuracy of my particular Spyder5 for color, and not having another meter to check it, I'm reluctant to use it for Color Autocal, as you and others have advised. I have used it consistently with my prior RS400, and saw no obvious problems. I think I have a fairly keen eye in terms of colors, proper color temperature, and so forth, from many years of editing Raw still DSLR image in Photoshop, with a calibrated monitor, but it's certainly possible there were inaccuracies I wasn't identifying.
Assuming you don't have a known accurate meter to check your calibrations using a third party calibration software, you can still give a try to a color Autocal without any risk:
- After your gamma autocal, make a note of the backup file created
- Display a greyscale ramp to see if you can see any non-grey shifts
- If you do, run a color autocal
- Display the same greyscale ramp
- Better? Your spyder most likely makes things better rather than worse, keep the color autocal
- Worse? Simply restore the backup created after the gamma autocal, it should bring you back to before the color autocal test.
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I'm having unexpected results with plain Gamma Autocal. I've run this with the prior version on my RS400 many, many times, same Spyder 5, with excellent results. Not sure what's going wrong here (although I wonder about the presence of the DCR Lens). I started off with just the basic settings I'd use for SDR content.
I followed the usual advice:
- Screen Adjustment turned Off
- I selected the Factory set Natural Picture Mode
- BT-709
- Aperture at 0, Manual
- 6500K
- Gamma 2.2
- Low Lamp
- No gain adjustments to adjust, since none have been made.
- Active Video Signal going to the Projector throughout.
I've attached a couple of pictures of the physical setup, as well as the Gamma Graphic at the end. Needless to say, I didn't Save this to the Projector, so it should still be in the baseline state.
The pictures are from the first run, and shows the tripod at a bit of a tilt (since the Projector is higher than the screen, the visual pathway would be angled down toward the screen). When the results were poor, I went for a more vertical orientation, and the results this time were worse. (The attached images are reversed time-wise - the first one was the second one done, etc.).
Does the program actively utilize the Screen Size and Seating Distance data that can be entered? I used 129", as that is the equivalent 16:9 size of my 160" diagonal 2.35:1 screen. But with the DCR lens in place, this is not your regular 129" image, although that is the lens zoom the Projector is using.
As good as the actual image the Projector is throwing looks to my eye, it is hard for me to accept that this gamma data is accurate. And the fact that it couldn't correct it fully makes me even more suspicious something funky is going on. That's why I didn't save any of these runs.
Ideas welcome on what's going on here! :-X
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Looks like your spyder is too close to the projector. Are you sure it is within the positioning box before calibration? The representation of the meter should be to the right of the box on the screen, but within it. Also you should make sure that the reflection of the lens off the spyder hits just above or below the lens itself. All this is in the basic section.
In any case, you 100% white reading is seriously wrong for both calibrations (it even says error on one) so until you resolve this there is no point going further.
If you still have issues after following the instructions for meter placement in the basic section, please take a screenshot of the aiming screen, and a picture of where the reflection of the lens (off the spyder) shines on the PJ.
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The 16/9 equivalent diagonal of a 160" 2.35 scope screen is 169", not 129", unless the calculation with a DCR lens is different ?
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Looks like your spyder is too close to the projector. Are you sure it is within the positioning box before calibration? The representation of the meter should be to the right of the box on the screen, but within it. Also you should make sure that the reflection of the lens off the spyder hits just above or below the lens itself. All this is in the basic section.
In any case, you 100% white reading is seriously wrong for both calibrations (it even says error on one) so until you resolve this there is no point going further.
If you still have issues after following the instructions for meter placement in the basic section, please take a screenshot of the aiming screen, and a picture of where the reflection of the lens (off the spyder) shines on the PJ.
Thanks for the reply, Manni.
Having been through this many times before with my RS400, as well as reading and re-reading those posts in this thread, I am very aware of the recommendations for the representation of the meter in the Autocal software, and took considerable time to get it so that it was definitely *within* the box, as far to the right as possible, without crossing the line.
A screenshot would look 100% like the one you posted in Reply #7 in this thread.
I will say, though, that it was extremely difficult to get proper placement - very slight adjustments in the tripod's position would often result in large changes in the sensor position in the software. That was true when tilting the assembly to try and get the angle correct, as per your recommendations.
But with the DCR lens directly in front of the Projector's lens, I couldn't really make out where the reflection from the Spyder actually was. And to be honest, I had trouble identifying it even when using it with my RS400. I've looked at the picture you posted, so I fully understand what you're talking about. I'm just having difficulty duplicating it, especially with the DCR Lens there.
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The 16/9 equivalent diagonal of a 160" 2.35 scope screen is 169", not 129", unless the calculation with a DCR lens is different ?
Major brain-fart! :-[
You are of course correct. I went to the 129" figure, because that is the effective 16:9 size I get for 16:9 content.
Manni - or anybody else - does the Autocal software actually use this data in its calculations? If so, it seems this could be the source of my problems.
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Thanks for the reply, Manni.
Having been through this many times before with my RS400, as well as reading and re-reading those posts in this thread, I am very aware of the recommendations for the representation of the meter in the Autocal software, and took considerable time to get it so that it was definitely *within* the box, as far to the right as possible, without crossing the line.
A screenshot would like 100% like the one you posted in Reply #7 in this thread.
I will say, though, that it was extremely difficult to get proper placement - very slight adjustments in the tripod's position would often result in large changes in the sensor position in the software. That was true when tilting the assembly to try and get the angle correct, as per your recommendations.
But with the DCR lens directly in front of the Projector's lens, I couldn't really make out where the reflection from the Spyder actually was. And to be honest, I had trouble identifying it even when using it with my RS400. I've looked at the picture you posted, so I fully understand what you're talking about. I'm just having difficulty duplicating it, especially with the DCR Lens there.
With those readings I would suspect the DCR lens is the issue. How big of a pain is it to remove it for the autocal process?
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With those readings I would suspect the DCR lens is the issue. How big of a pain is it to remove it for the autocal process?
It's pretty quick and easy, Dave, and which would also require re-zooming the Projector for a 16:9 image. Given that I've got all of this very well-tuned, especially with the DCR Lens, I'd rather avoid that, unless it is necessary. Small differences in physical positioning and orienting of the lens can have an impact on the picture size, placement, etc.
I also wonder if it would in fact be "better" to do with the DCR lens in place, since that is how I actually use the Projector.
So it's certainly a possibility, once we're able to identify with some degree of certainty, what in fact is causing the problem.
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It's pretty quick and easy, Dave, and which would also require re-zooming the Projector for a 16:9 image. Given that I've got all of this very well-tuned, especially with the DCR Lens, I'd rather avoid that, unless it is necessary. Small differences in physical positioning and orienting of the lens can have an impact on the picture size, placement, etc.
I also wonder if it would in fact be "better" to do with the DCR lens in place, since that is how I actually use the Projector.
So it's certainly a possibility, once we're able to identify with some degree of certainty, what in fact is causing the problem.
Totally understand why you wouldn't want to remove it.
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Manni - or anybody else - does the Autocal software actually use this data in its calculations? If so, it seems this could be the source of my problems.
AFAIK these values are not used unless you use the environment adjustments (p16 of the manual), which is not recommended anyway, at least not in a bat cave.
You could try to get the lens out of the path but I can’t see why it would be a problem for gamma autocal, unless the sensor is not correctly positioned.
If you get the autocal to work without the lens, then you can try to put it back in the path.
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AFAIK these values are not used unless you use the environment adjustments (p16 of the manual), which is not recommended anyway, at least not in a bat cave.
You could try to get the lens out of the path but I can’t see why it would be a problem for gamma autocal, unless the sensor is not correctly positioned.
If you get the autocal to work without the lens, then you can try to put it back in the path.
Thanks Manni.
I'm not using the environment adjustments. I will go ahead and change to the proper 169", even though it's likely not creating problems. Wouldn't hurt anything.
I do have an email into Shawn Kelly of Panamorph, on this question, and see if he has any knowledge or experience on the optimal way to do this.
I agree that it seems to be a sensor positioning problem, but as I'm following the guidelines, and doing this the exact same way as I did with my RS400, I can't understand where I'm going wrong.
I'll try again later today, and see if there's some way I can identify the reflection of the Spyder5, and see where it's falling.
If nothing else works, I guess I'll have to just remove the DCR temporarily to get this done.
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I'll try again later today, and see if there's some way I can identify the reflection of the Spyder5, and see where it's falling.
If you have difficulty identifying the reflection of the Spyder5, try to adjust the meter orientation (vertically and horizontally) while monitoring the reading. The highest reading (meter closest to the right in the Autocal diagram) should correspond the meter facing the lens directly; then offset it slightly.
Also, change the setting to Log Only mode while you're trouble-shooting as that's much faster.
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If you have difficulty identifying the reflection of the Spyder5, try to adjust the meter orientation (vertically and horizontally) while monitoring the reading. The highest reading (meter closest to the right in the Autocal diagram) should correspond the meter facing the lens directly; then offset it slightly.
Also, change the setting to Log Only mode while you're trouble-shooting as that's much faster.
Good suggestion, Dominic. When I was playing around with this on Saturday, I did notice that changing the orientation (trying to get the right 'tilt') did result in significant variations. I think Manni was definitely on the right track, in that I need to be further back overall. I think I was using a similar starting point as I did with the RS400, but with nominally more lumens, and the DCR in place adding another 38% or so more light, I'll need to go further away.
I was also thinking about going to Log Only mode, for the exact same reasons, so appreciate your reminding me of that.
On the 'other' forum, there was an excellent suggestion of getting a Tripod extension pole, which might make it a lot easier to get stable and easily adjustable placement, since my projector is up a bit higher than average. I think this was the same guy who had apparently successfully run his Autocal with the DCR in place. He did use the SpyderX, but I would think that if it worked for him, it should work fine for me with the Spyder5.
It may be a few days until I have the time to play around with this again, but I will report back.
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As the autocal application does not actually measure the distance between the lens and the spyder, I think that the shown placement of the spyder relative to the yellow rectangle is only in relation with the amount of light that is sensed, thus DCR lens or none will not change the fact that the lens should be as near as possible to the right boundary of the rectangle but still inside it.
The last time I tried with a spyder 5 to make it easier to spot the sensor's reflection I used a piece of black paper with a hole stuck in front of the PJ and centered over the lens so that I could see the shadow of the spyder on the screen in the middle of the paper's hole shadow, then moving the sensor's reflection just to the rim of the paper's hole.
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He did use the SpyderX, but I would think that if it worked for him, it should work fine for me with the Spyder5.
The spyder X has to be used facing the screen, so not the same as the Spyder 5 that has to be used facing the lens with the Autocal software.
Yes the Autocal only measures light when placing the meter into the box, so the same should apply lens or no lens: withing the box, preferably towards the right edge.
If you're already at the right edge of the box and still have issues, try backing off even further. Some people have reported better results when the meter was at the centre of the aiming box.
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As the autocal application does not actually measure the distance between the lens and the spyder, I think that the shown placement of the spyder relative to the yellow rectangle is only in relation with the amount of light that is sensed, thus DCR lens or none will not change the fact that the lens should be as near as possible to the right boundary of the rectangle but still inside it.
The last time I tried with a spyder 5 to make it easier to spot the sensor's reflection I used a piece of black paper with a hole stuck in front of the PJ and centered over the lens so that I could see the shadow of the spyder on the screen in the middle of the paper's hole shadow, then moving the sensor's reflection just to the rim of the paper's hole.
Clever - good option!
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Does it happen to anyone that the i1Pro2, in AutoCAL 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12, does NOT move ANYTHING to north, south, east, west, forward or backward?
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Does it happen to anyone that the i1Pro2, in AutoCAL 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12, does NOT move ANYTHING to north, south, east, west, forward or backward?
The ipro2 should be facing the screen, as close to the screen as you can get it so that it doesn’t read its own shadow (around 1-2 feet max). Use a small pattern (I use 1%) in another software if you can to position it so that it reads the centre of the screen. The aiming box in the autocal doesn’t work for the i1pro2, as explained in the basic section (positioning), which you might want to read.
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Manni, I have the Darrell Bird's article about sensor's viewing angle where he says that the I1 Pro has a VA of 8° and a 3.4" viewing circle diameter at a distance of 2 feet ( 1.7" at 1').
Does the I1 Pro2 have the same values ?
Does that fit with your experiments ?
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The aiming box in the autocal doesn’t work for the i1pro2, as explained in the basic section (positioning), which you might want to read.
OK!, that is what I wanted to read.
Thank you.
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Manni, I have the Darrell Bird's article about sensor's viewing angle where he says that the I1 Pro has a VA of 8° and a 3.4" viewing circle diameter at a distance of 2 feet ( 1.7" at 1').
Does the I1 Pro2 have the same values ?
Does that fit with your experiments ?
AFAIK the FOV of the i1pro and the i1pro2 is the same.
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I wanted to provide some feedback from my efforts and the great advice I have received.
Using Autocal for SDR using Spyder5Pro and i1pro2 I was able to get a very good calibration with only minor tweaks to the 2 point White Balance (Red and Blue not Green) and the coarse 3 point gamma (Picture Tone, Dark & Bright Level). So much so that when I sent my Chromapure results to Tom Huffman who had been helping me with his software, about how much more tweaking I should do...his response was "This looks darn near perfect."
One thing that was holding me back was my profiling of my id3 to my i1Pro2, I had a technical issue with my source plus I didn't use full field for profiling. Once I resolved that issue which held me back for weeks, the autocal required only minor tweaking to be "darn near perfect." Hopefully others can avoid my mistake and take the time to do a really good profile before tweaking.
Also I did all of this with my DCR in place so I don't think there is any need to remove it for autocal.
Now on to HDR....
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NX7 Autocal, Version 11, 1.2, Spyder5, with DCR Lens in place, Anamorphic Mode C chosen, filling my 160" diagonal 2.35:1 screen:
Update to my prior posts, where I was getting poor Autocal results (gamma only), which Manni and others indicated was most likely due to the Spyder5 being too close to the Projector. I had the virtual sensor in the right place in the software, but I think my tilt was off such that this created the problems.
I got out my taller tripod, was able to get much more stable positioning, and following Dominic's suggestion, I could tilt the tripod while watching the screen, to find where the sensor moved farthest to the right in the software, which should indicate it being properly lined up (with the DCR Lens in place, I could see absolutely no evidence of the reflection from the Spyder5, so had to rely on this). I then moved the whole apparatus back and forth until the virtual sensor was just inside the right edge of the box (as shown in the screen capture).
Throw Distance to my screen is 18' 2". Distance from the front of the DCR lens to the Spyder5 was 6' 8". This is definitely further back than I had it the first time around.
The shadow of the Spyder5 was dead center in the screen, horizontally and vertically, with its symmetric shadow confirming no rotation of the Spyder5, in addition to direct observation of its positioning.
Screen Adjust was turned off, as were all motion and similar settings.
The screen capture below shows Natural Picture Mode, BT-709 Color Profile, 6500K, Gamma 2.2, Aperture at 0, Manual.
I changed the Screen size in the Settings from my prior error of 129", to the proper 169", the effective diagonal for the NX7 casting an image 147" wide. Probably not relevant, but no harm in using the right figure here.
As the screen capture below indicate, the results are much better than they were, but still not right. Log only was done initially, and was pretty close to true Gamma 2.2 I then did the actual 33-point Gamma Autocal, with identical looking results: it's as if the Autocal was not able to make an adjustment to get the Gamma a perfect 2.2. The while line is almost 100% superimposed on the blue line (which can be seen when zooming in on the image).
I had done this many times with my prior RS400, with the eventual results being a perfect 2.2
Any suggestions on why I can't get this now? Should this be done with Anamorphic D, which results in a central 16:9 image in the center of the screen (at reduced brightness relative to the Anamorphic C mode)? Something else not being quite right?
I ran this a couple of times (not saving anything until I'm satisfied) and the Projector had been on for over 30 minutes before attempting any Autocal.
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Any suggestions on why I can't get this now? Should this be done with Anamorphic D, which results in a central 16:9 image in the center of the screen (at reduced brightness relative to the Anamorphic C mode)? Something else not being quite right?
Does the Color Temp screen look normal? Have you tried placing the meter even farther from the projector?
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Does the Color Temp screen look normal? Have you tried placing the meter even farther from the projector?
Thanks Dominic. I just finished watching a movie, so the projector has been on for a while.
I moved the sensor back, and the screen capture below shows the virtual sensor in the Autocal software.
I've also attached the 3 post-calibration screens (which again, I have not saved to Projector).
What do you make of this? I can continue to move it back, and perhaps things will improve, but this goes against the usual recommendations for having the virtual spyder just inside the box, all the way to the right.
While I wait for replies, I think I'll switch to Anamorphic D, for 16:9, and see what I get.
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I switched to Anamorphic Mode D, showing content at 16:9 on the screen. But when it went into Autocal, the full screen was illuminated, suggesting that this Mode was being ignored.
I've attached the result, and not surprisingly, it was no different.
I'm puzzled. There was somebody here, or the other forum, I forget, who indicated they did a successful Autocal with the DCR Lens in place (although he didn't post the actual results).
I'm open to any ideas on how to get full Gamma calibration. Perhaps there's some tiny detail or setting I'm overlooking, but for the life of me, I can't find it.
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I figured it out.
I forgot that I had played around with the Natural Profile a couple of months ago, for 3D content, and had made adjustments to the Gamma sub-settings: Picture Tone was up +7 and Bright Level was up +3. I use a User Profile named SDR for my regular Blu-ray watching, and had forgotten about this.
It is probably included in the instructions, to make sure these Gamma sub-settings were set to Zero, even when Gamma 2.2 is selected, and I overlooked it.
I re-ran Autocal, and it was now perfect. I saved it, the INIT file is now in my Dropbox account, and all is good with the world.
I'll now run with the Filter in place, and High Lamp, which is what I use for HDR.
ETA: And looking at the before and after for Gamma, the Blue line is only very slightly visible, so after 150 or so hours, I've not experienced any significant Gamma droop (at least in Low Lamp).
The devil is in the details!! Sorry for the grief here, but hopefully this will help somebody else avoid this mistake.
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And here are the results with the Natural Picture Mode, BT2020 Color Profile, High Lamp.
Not knowing the accuracy of my Spyder5 for Color, I have done Gamma only at this point. Is there any useful information that can be gleaned from the Color and Color Temp Graphics?
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I figured it out.
I forgot that I had played around with the Natural Profile a couple of months ago, for 3D content, and had made adjustments to the Gamma sub-settings: Picture Tone was up +7 and Bright Level was up +3. I use a User Profile named SDR for my regular Blu-ray watching, and had forgotten about this.
Glad to hear you solved the mystery. One lesson I learned from my own mistakes was never to modify any standard settings. If changes are needed to the gamma or colour temperatures, I only make them under custom settings.
However, I’m still not sure why the first (January 19) results were so different from second set.
As for gamma droop, my NX7 also showed a relatively straight line at 400 hours in the Autocal gamma plot, but the blue colour had severe droop, which is visible only in the Color Temp plot (or if you manually measure the RGB response). Unfortunately that plot only shows the After results, so one would not see it when running gamma auto-cal.
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@DCLPhoto
Glad to hear you’ve resolved your issue.
It might help those who don’t (re)read the basic section or the FAQ when they have an issue.
It’s point 9 in the preparation section :)
As I suggested earlier, you could run a color autocal and display a grescale ramp before deciding if you want to save the calibration or not. You can also save it and test, then restore the latest backup (made after your gamma autocal) if you’re not happy with the results.
The only way to test for sure is with a known good meter and a third party software, or by using an i1pro2 or clone for color.
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However, I’m still not sure why the first (January 19) results were so different from second set.
As for gamma droop, my NX7 also showed a relatively straight line at 400 hours in the Autocal gamma plot, but the blue colour had severe droop, which is visible only in the Color Temp plot (or if you manually measure the RGB response). Unfortunately that plot only shows the After results, so one would not see it when running gamma auto-cal.
On January 19, the problem was, as Manni correctly identified, that I was too close. I was only within the 'correct' position within the software, because the 'tilt' was not optimal. To get it within the box, at the right, I was incorrectly using tilt.
Your suggestion of adjusting tilt while viewing the position in the software, is a great way to find that optimal position (especially since with the DCR Lens in place, I couldn't see any reflection from the Spyder5). Forward and backward can then be adjusted, along with tilt, in an iterative fashion, since one affects the other, until pretty much perfect placement can be achieved.
Perhaps Manni can add this tip to the Preparation steps, which really comes in handy for those of us doing this with the DCR Lens in place.
In the situation where you found significant Gamma Droop for Blue, what would be the visible impact? Would it be a shift in the image in a warm (or cool?) direction? I ask, because I like to think I'm fairly aware of Color Temp (and other aspects of an image) because of my years in Photoshop, addressing these issues in my nature photography with a fairly high-end DSLR). My NX7 throws what appears to my eye to be an accurate image (in terms of skin tone, sky, grass, etc.), just as I thought the overall tonality was accurate (perhaps confirmed by my Gamma Autocal results).
@DCLPhoto
Glad to hear you’ve resolved your issue.
It might help those who don’t (re)read the basic section or the FAQ when they have an issue.
It’s point 9 in the preparation section :)
As I suggested earlier, you could run a color autocal and display a grescale ramp before deciding if you want to save the calibration or not. You can also save it and test, then restore the latest backup (made after your gamma autocal) if you’re not happy with the results.
The only way to test for sure is with a known good meter and a third party software, or by using an i1pro2 or clone for color.
In my case, I had read, and re-read those sections, but simply forgot I had made those Gamma corrections several months before, in a Picture Mode I no longer use. There's no fix for stupid!
To both of you:
It is straightforward what the 'correct' Gamma graphic should look like after a successful Autocal. But as I'm still not that well versed in Calibration procedures, what would the 'correct' or 'accurate' Graphics look like for both the Color And Color Temp sections that Autocal provides? I understand I can visually assess the result using a Gray Ramp, but would like to be better able to understand and interpret what those Graphics are telling me.
Thanks!
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It is straightforward what the 'correct' Gamma graphic should look like after a successful Autocal. But as I'm still not that well versed in Calibration procedures, what would the 'correct' or 'accurate' Graphics look like for both the Color And Color Temp sections that Autocal provides? I understand I can visually assess the result using a Gray Ramp, but would like to be better able to understand and interpret what those Graphics are telling me.
The only way to know if a gamma autocal went well (according to the Spyder) is to select a gamma of 2.2 and reset all the gamma user settings before the autocal (as advised in the preparation). If you do this, the "after" line should be flat, identical to the target one. If you don't do this, there is no way to assess the result without a known good meter and a third party software, because the target line ALWAYS shows 2.2, even if you select a different gamma in your settings.
Regarding the color autocal, provided you have also reset all the color temp user settings in the calibrated mode, the log after autocal should show all the measurements in the graph close to the 6500K target, and the actual measurements close to 6500K, with a small dE.
If your measurements are far from 6500K, something is not going correctly with the Autocal.
If your after cal log is close to 6500K, this only means that according to this specific spyder unit, the autocal went well. It could still be completely off if the spyder itself is off.
This is why, if you don't have a known good meter to check the results in a third-party software, the only way to check your color autocal is to check visually.
As I said, put up a greyscale ramp before the autocal, look for any non-white/grey shades, run the color autocal, and check the same ramp (without saving). If the greyscale looks better, you likely have a good spyder, so you can save the autocal. If it looks worse, you have a poor one, just discard it.
You have good eyes, I'm sure you'll be able to tell. :)
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I forgot, if you use the Spyder X facing the screen for a color Autocal, make sure that you DON'T select a screen type and that screen type is disabled in the JVC menus.
If you use the Spyder 5 facing the lens for a color autocal, make sure that you DO select the correct screen type in the JVC menus after the autocal, before assessing the greyscale ramp or making any manual adjstments, otherwise your calibration might be off depending on the screen (or you'll lose a significant amount of brightness if you make manual adjustments). My Carada is fairly color neutral, so the screen type doesn't make a big difference, but with some screens the difference can be significant.
This is another indication of a bad spyder / by autocal by the way: excessive loss of brightness due to over-correction.
Make sure that you measure brightness before and after the color autocal (using HCFR for example).
Peak brightness shouldn't change after a gamma autocal, but it will most likely change after a color autocal, sometimes dramatically if the specific Spyder unit is off.
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Regarding the color autocal, provided you have also reset all the color temp user settings in the calibrated mode, the log after autocal should show all the measurements in the graph close to the 6500K target, and the actual measurements close to 6500K, with a small dE.
If your measurements are far from 6500K, something is not going correctly with the Autocal.
If your after cal log is close to 6500K, this only means that according to this specific spyder unit, the autocal went well. It could still be completely off if the spyder itself is off.
How close is close to 6500K in this context: +/- 5, 10, 50, 100, 300, 500?
And regarding dE - forgive my ignorance, but is this the same as what is termed delta u'v' in Autocal, or is it found somewhere else? And what would be considered small?
Is there somewhere I can read about the x, y, L data provided for the 7 sets of Color parameters in the Graphics, to better understand what they're telling me?
Finally, if somebody could post screen captures of excellent results for both the Color and Color Temp graphic (and perhaps corresponding ones for what's poor, so a range could be established), that would be helpful - a picture is worth a thousand words, as they say!
I know this is basic stuff for most of you, and I hope I'm not the only one who would benefit from this discussion!
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How close is close to 6500K in this context: +/- 5, 10, 50, 100, 300, 500?
And regarding dE - forgive my ignorance, but is this the same as what is termed delta u'v' in Autocal, or is it found somewhere else? And what would be considered small?
Is there somewhere I can read about the x, y, L data provided for the 7 sets of Color parameters in the Graphics, to better understand what they're telling me?
Finally, if somebody could post screen captures of excellent results for both the Color and Color Temp graphic (and perhaps corresponding ones for what's poor, so a range could be established), that would be helpful - a picture is worth a thousand words, as they say!
I know this is basic stuff for most of you, and I hope I'm not the only one who would benefit from this discussion!
You are overcomplicating this and not reading the information already provided. :)
Just look at the pictures I posted in the basic section (section calibration (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10390#msg10390)), they show you how things should look like and the kind of errors that are to be expected.
My color autocal showed was around 6300K, and I didn't really mind as I run a 3D LUT after that.
Again, please re-read the basic section, most of the answers to your questions are already there.
The autocal gets you in the ballpark (3-5dE 2000 in my experience, with an i1pro2 as a reference). You first assess if the Autocal goes well, then you assess the results visually.
If you want more than that, you need a better meter and a third-party software so you can fine-tune manually and/or apply a 3D LUT.
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Hey Manni, I didn't know any other way to get you this info so I'm putting it here.
I just thought you would like to know.
My friend recently re-bought another NX9 and also still an NX5.
I spent some time at his place the other day calibrating and comparing them and I spend some time comparing the DI.
I can confirm without a doubt now that the NX9 does not have the same DI clipping (or yellowing) in highlights that the NX5 or 7 do.
My theory for why this is, is that if you take a look at the actual size of the iris on the NX9, it is significantly larger than the NX5/7.
When it's fully open it's a much larger round circle and when it closes down, it's still a much larger area and even a different shape.
In the Greatest Showman Jenny Lind scene when it's zoomed way out and she is tiny on stage, I see both iris close down the same %, but the NX5 iris is essentially a square (in a diamond orientation) with the height and width corner to corner in the iris the same distance. On the NX9 however in the same scene, the iris shape is not a square. The distance from the top and bottom corners is much longer than the left and right corners of the iris opening.
Also when the NX9 iris is closed down in this scene, the total area of the opening seems to be about as big as the NX5 iris is when it's full open.
So my theory is that the whole iris mechanism is vastly different on the NX9 and that the iris opening at every level is larger than the NX5/7. And of course it's larger because the whole lens is much larger on the NX9.
Based on this I do not expect JVC to be able to "fix" the iris on the NX5/7 unfortunately.
Hope you find this info useful.
I am going back to his place on Wednesday if you have any questions.
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Thanks for this confirmation. The different mechanical iris has been the main theory/explanation as to why the issue is present on the N5/N7 and not the N9 (this has been confirmed by Kris Deering and others for a while).
Personally, I don’t think it can be fixed and I am not expecting it to be, especially as the same issue is present in the earlier models (it’s there in my rs500 ), so it’s nothing new.
This is why I have been requesting for a while now an auto3 mode with no gamma manipulation or iris adjustments at all, except during fade to black. The rest of the time, I don’t really need a DI with around 115nits in low lamp. I only would like to lower the black floor during long fade to black.
I have no idea if this is possible, or if JVC is considering implementing this. I certainly hope they are, because the DI is switched off here, it’s just not usable in HDR with the iris fully open.
Not related to the JVC Autocal though, so let’s not start a long debate on this here. :)
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Hi Manni, I think there are missing replies in this thread ?
The last reply is dated 23rd january, have you pruned it ?
JJ.
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Hi Manni, I think there are missing replies in this thread ?
The last reply is dated 23rd january, have you pruned it ?
JJ.
Yes I did delete a couple of my own posts. :) They didn't seem to generate much interest and I would need to spend more time to investigate, as my tests were pretty inconclusive. Unfortunately this isn't going to happen for a while, so rather than leaving a few posts hanging I decided to clean up the thread.
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Manni that's a shame, as I also have been seeing some strange results for FA HDR (big inbalance of Red and Blue at the the low-end) which can't be tamed by 2 point RGB adjustments. I suspect they could be tamed by gamma adjustment but of course you can't adjust gamma with with FA-HDR.
I completely understand and respect that you don't want to feel obliged to investigate something so time consuming and outside your general usage.
I for one don't expect you investigate every aberration seen by you, or anyone else, just because you started the thread.
Thanks for everything you have already provided and feel free to delete this post if you don't think it helpful. I just wanted to give you the feedback I should have when when you originally posted about FA-HDR and give general support for your efforts.
Cheers Stephen
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I calibrated the grey scale in HDR Picture Mode, but found that FA HDR grey scale does not quite follow it, in spite of what JVC said.
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Dominic,
Yes, I am confident of being able to post calibrate/tweak the HDR Picture mode like I did for SDR but have consumed most of my time trying to understand FA-HDR. Clearly the setting high, medium and low changes the gamma and in my currently preferred setting "high" I can't really tame the grey scale much usinging just the 2 point RGB.
Stephen
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In my case I used gamma Autocal in the HDR10 mode and got good grey scale, but as mentioned in the FA HDR mode the R/G/B tracking is quite a bit off.
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Yes I just checked my HDR profile, this was after autocal with Spyder5Pro gamma and i1pro2 color.
Tweaking the 2 point RGB and the 3 point gamma I was able to get a grey scale deltaE of 2 pretty easily and could likely do better with more time.
For FA-HDR no amount of tweaking the 2 point RGB could get a grey scale sweep deltaE of under 3.6 - The gamma (which can't be adjusted for FA-HDR) was substantially different (lumpy and below target) from the HDR Profile gamma which was pretty linear and above target, even before tweaking. Which probably makes sense given FA-HDR uses gamma manipulation.
I will continue to test as I get time.
BTW I was able to get a grey scale sweep deltaE of 1.3 for SDR after autocal.
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I had previously posted about my light loss issue. It was the because the iris was getting stuck. If I fully closed and opened the iris the light levels cam back to what I initially had. It seemed to get stuck while using Auto Iris. I actually got to a point where I was 30 nits low before talking to Kris Deering so it can be a big deal.
I put a PSA about it on the other forum in the NX/RS thread.
Cheers Stephen
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Have been following this guide to calibrate my JVC RS2000 that has about 75 hours now.
I did my initial calibration at about 30 hours and I'm planning to do it again at about 100 hours
I've a question on the re-calibration procedure when calibrating again after every few 100 hours
Do I reset the table from original Init file each time I calibrate after every few 100 hours or I calibrate using the existing table settings?
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Have been following this guide to calibrate my JVC RS2000 that has about 75 hours now.
I did my initial calibration at about 30 hours and I'm planning to do it again at about 100 hours
I've a question on the re-calibration procedure when calibrating again after every few 100 hours
Do I reset the table from original Init file each time I calibrate after every few 100 hours or I calibrate using the existing table settings?
Hi there,
No, you just redo the autocal for the calibration modes that need it.
The INIT file only needs to be used if you want to return the table to the state they were in before the first calibration, as there is no other way to do so.
Just make sure you reset your user settings (for example offsets/gains) before running the autocal to make sure the calibration logs show the results of the new calibration, and not the results with your old manual adjustments applied on top. These settings are not taken into account during the calibration, but they are taken into account during the log. Of course if you don't do manual adjustments after the autocal, there is no need to reset them :)
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Hi there,
No, you just redo the autocal for the calibration modes that need it.
The INIT file only needs to be used if you want to return the table to the state they were in before the first calibration, as there is no other way to do so.
Just make sure you reset your user settings (for example offsets/gains) before running the autocal to make sure the calibration logs show the results of the new calibration, and not the results with your old manual adjustments applied on top. These settings are not taken into account during the calibration, but they are taken into account during the log. Of course if you don't do manual adjustments after the autocal, there is no need to reset them :)
That's reliving to hear as reloading init file is very time consuming. I hope JVC fix it in next update
I appreciate your quick response.
Also what thread should I follow to get info on MadVR setup. I know we can't discuss in this thread.
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That's reliving to hear as reloading init file is very time consuming. I hope JVC fix it in next update
I appreciate your quick response.
Also what thread should I follow to get info on MadVR setup. I know we can't discuss in this thread.
There are a few threads open on various forums, but the official madVR support thread is on doom9:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228 (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228)
It's well worth registering if you haven't, there are lots of knowledgeable people to help you there with anything madVR related.
Just don't ask support questions in the "improving madVR tonemapping for projectors" thread on the other forum, as that thread is there to help masdshi test some experimental beta versions with experienced users, so generic support questions are not welcome there (and usually not answered by the most experienced members in order to not clutter the thread).
Once you have madVR setup properly with the release version, feel free to install the latest beta and contribute to the beta thread by offering feedback if you can, but please refrain from asking support questions about experimental settings and options.
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I've read through the guide and JVC manual a couple times but have a few things I want to clarify. I am setting up a NX5 for a friend this weekend and will be setting up a NX7 in a few weeks. Both will be on FW 3.10 using Autocal 12. I have a Spyder X and an i1 Pro Basic 2 for color.
- For Rec 709 calibration, it seems pretty straight forward. If I do the approach of wanting to calibrate the entire iris range of 0 to -15 by doing (0, -5, -10, -15), does that apply to both gamma and color? Or is that only necessary for color?
- Is it better to do gamma then color, or the other way around?
- Depending on 2, would it be ok to take all gamma measurements for both SDR/HDR, then come back and do all for color measurements? Just trying to avoid meter changes.
- There will be no Lumagen or MadVR so the DTM used for both will be with the JVC onboard frame adapt. Knowing this, what is the best method for HDR calibration on the NX5 knowing you can't do it in frame adapt picture mode? What picture setting, color profile and gamma profile should be used? A User mode, HDR color and HDR(PQ) gamma?
- Same question for the NX7, only I assume you'd want to use the BT2020 color profile?
- Is it true for HDR, you always want the iris set to 0?
- What do Auto 1 and Auto 2 for the iris actually do on the NX5 without a dynamic iris?
Thanks in advance and apologies if these answers are posted elsewhere. I wasn't sure how much the instructions were updated to account for version 12 and firmware 3.10. It's been a while since I used autocal, way back to version 6 for an RS600.
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1. The different aperture ranges are for colour calibration only.
2. I would do gamma first. There was a previous discussion on this.
3. No problems with that.
4,5. I would use a user mode, with the same profile that you use for HDR, and gamma 2.2
6. If the peak luminance is high enough, some would close down the iris a few clicks to get better contrast.
7. All recent JVCs, even the models with a single iris like the RS4x0 and the NX5, have dynamic iris.
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1. The different aperture ranges are for colour calibration only.
2. I would do gamma first. There was a previous discussion on this.
3. No problems with that.
4,5. I would use a user mode, with the same profile that you use for HDR, and gamma 2.2
6. If the peak luminance is high enough, some would close down the iris a few clicks to get better contrast.
7. All recent JVCs, even the models with a single iris like the RS4x0 and the NX5, have dynamic iris.
I did the HDR autocal with a user mode, gamma of HDR(PQ) and HDR color profile. When I go back and use Frame Adapt after the fact, the white balance is off and has a very bad yellow push, verified with ChromaPure.
Ever seen this before?
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Does the HDR10 mode have the same yellow push?
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Does the HDR10 mode have the same yellow push?
I'll double check tonight and confirm. I reset the INIT file and will start from scratch. I had only checked User and Frame Adapt last night.
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Have you set the lamp same as you calibrated?
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Does the HDR10 mode have the same yellow push?
It's the iris issue with HDR. I totally forgot about that. Turning the iris to manual and everything is fine, turn it to Auto 1 or 2 and on a non-full field test pattern it gets the yellow push.
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It's the iris issue with HDR. I totally forgot about that. Turning the iris to manual and everything is fine, turn it to Auto 1 or 2 and on a non-full field test pattern it gets the yellow push.
Glad you found the reason. Whether you use it or not during playback, the DI should always be switched off when calibrating.
Given the yellowing issue on all models and the highlights clipping issues on rs1000/rs2000 when the DI is enabled, you might want to consider not using the DI if you care about picture accuracy and details in highlights, which arguably only matters if you have a peak white high enough to get enough headroom for highlights in the first place.
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Glad you found the reason. Whether you use it or not during playback, the DI should always be switched off when calibrating.
Given the yellowing issue on all models and the highlights clipping issues on rs1000/rs2000 when the DI is enabled, you might want to consider not using the DI if you care about picture accuracy and details in highlights, which arguably only matters if you have a peak white high enough to get enough headroom for highlights in the first place.
Are the iris issues confirmed only with HDR content? I did not have the same yellowing issue with SDR. Just wondering if it would be ok to keep it on for SDR and just off for HDR.
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Are the iris issues confirmed only with HDR content? I did not have the same yellowing issue with SDR. Just wondering if it would be ok to keep it on for SDR and just off for HDR.
I’ve always seen yellowing and clipping with the iris on every NX5/7 RS1000/2000 that I’ve used/seen (which has been 5 samples) both in SDR and HDR.
Only the NX9/RS3000 is immune.
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I’ve always seen yellowing and clipping with the iris on every NX5/7 RS1000/2000 that I’ve used/seen (which has been 5 samples) both in SDR and HDR.
Only the NX9/RS3000 is immune.
Well boo, that's too bad. I wonder if a fix is in the pipeline?
I guess I'll just leave the ones I'm setting up to manual.
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Well boo, that's too bad. I wonder if a fix is in the pipeline?
I guess I'll just leave the ones I'm setting up to manual.
Well these projectors have been out for over a year with a few updates already. But there havent been updates in awhile.
Based on what I have seen when testing them vs. the NX9 I don't see how a software fix is really possible. Maybe it is, but I wouldn't count on another update.
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Are the iris issues confirmed only with HDR content? I did not have the same yellowing issue with SDR. Just wondering if it would be ok to keep it on for SDR and just off for HDR.
The iris issues with the RS1000/2000 are confirmed with all content, but the impact is worse the more the manual iris is open.
So as most people will have the manual iris fully open for HDR, it shows up a lot more in HDR.
If you can close the manual iris significantly, the artifacts are significantly reduced.
I did some tests and the hightlights become less clipped from around -5. At -10 and below, it becomes marginal and fully usable, but of course the dynamic contrast is significantly reduced.
For example, in SDR, I have the manual iris set to -12 to get 60nits peak white, and I have no problem using the DI, though of course at that setting the impact of the DI is fairly minimal. So I disable it for picture stability as enabling it has little impact on black floor and contrast, due to the very conservative dynamic iris settings in the new models.
So depending on what you need to set the manual iris to in SDR, you might bet both an acceptable amount of artifacts and a significant improvement in black floor / dynamic contrast to keep it on.
I'd say from around -12 to around -7 would the range where I would consider using the DI.
You can also, if fan noise / heat / power use / bulb life is not an issue, use high lamp and close the iris further, both in HDR and SDR, if that helps the manual iris to get into that range where you get enough benefit from the DI to justify the amount of artifacts.
Frankly, the native contrast is good enough on these to disable the DI entirely, even in HDR. I moaned about it initially, but now that I'm used to having no DI, I don't really mind. It only makes a (small) difference on longer fade to black, but nothing as significant as with the previous models, because JVC has decided to limit pumping during credits at the expense of absolute black levels during fade to black.
If the DI was better with fade to black (as it was with the previous models), I'd miss the DI more.
Right now, I really enjoy the picture stability you get with the DI disabled, and the complete lack of artifacts, both in SDR and HDR. :)
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The iris issues with the RS1000/2000 are confirmed with all content, but the impact is worse the more the manual iris is open.
So as most people will have the manual iris fully open for HDR, it shows up a lot more in HDR.
If you can close the manual iris significantly, the artifacts are significantly reduced.
I did some tests and the hightlights become less clipped from around -5. At -10 and below, it becomes marginal and fully usable, but of course the dynamic contrast is significantly reduced.
For example, in SDR, I have the manual iris set to -12 to get 60nits peak white, and I have no problem using the DI, though of course at that setting the impact of the DI is fairly minimal. So I disable it for picture stability as enabling it has little impact on black floor and contrast, due to the very conservative dynamic iris settings in the new models.
So depending on what you need to set the manual iris to in SDR, you might bet both an acceptable amount of artifacts and a significant improvement in black floor / dynamic contrast to keep it on.
I'd say from around -12 to around -7 would the range where I would consider using the DI.
You can also, if fan noise / heat / power use / bulb life is not an issue, use high lamp and close the iris further, both in HDR and SDR, if that helps the manual iris to get into that range where you get enough benefit from the DI to justify the amount of artifacts.
Frankly, the native contrast is good enough on these to disable the DI entirely, even in HDR. I moaned about it initially, but now that I'm used to having no DI, I don't really mind. It only makes a (small) difference on longer fade to black, but nothing as significant as with the previous models, because JVC has decided to limit pumping during credits at the expense of absolute black levels during fade to black.
If the DI was better with fade to black (as it was with the previous models), I'd miss the DI more.
Right now, I really enjoy the picture stability you get with the DI disabled, and the complete lack of artifacts, both in SDR and HDR. :)
Thanks Manni, greatly appreciate the feedback. The manual iris in low bulb will be around -5 for these setups so I'll just plan to leave it disabled.
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I'd say from around -12 to around -7 would the range where I would consider using the DI.
Maybe the NX5 is worse because of only 1 iris, but I tried running my iris at -10 last night and turned on the DI and still could notice the color shift and loss of highlight detail in many dark scenes.
So even at -10 I have to keep it off for me I guess.
I was seeing tons of DI issues watching this FWIW.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5732482/ (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5732482/)
But the black levels and contrast look pretty fantastic in it otherwise.
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Maybe the NX5 is worse because of only 1 iris, but I tried running my iris at -10 last night and turned on the DI and still could notice the color shift and loss of highlight detail in many dark scenes.
So even at -10 I have to keep it off for me I guess.
I was seeing tons of DI issues watching this FWIW.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5732482/ (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5732482/)
But the black levels and contrast look pretty fantastic in it otherwise.
I didn't say anything different. I have it switched off at -12, because there is so little gain in dynamic contrast / black floor that it's not worth the instability, even if there is little highlights clipping.
The range I suggested for considering using the DI (-12 to -7) isn't the range without artifacts, it's the range where the trade-off might be worth it, depending on how much you notice the artifacts vs how much benefit you get from the DI. It's a personal choice. My tolerance for clipping artifacts is very low.
Below -10, you might as well keep it switched off IMHO, there is very little to gain from the DI on the new models at that setting. The DI remains fairly open even in fully closed position and the iris is so slow that you only benefit with very long fade to black. Otherwise, you get some instability, still some clipping and very little noticeable benefits.
Or maybe having the DI switched off grew on me, and I simply prefer the picture that way now: stable, predictable, without artifacts and accurate all the time. :)
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Yeah, I’ve never been able to use any DI on any projector I’ve ever owned through the years so this certainly isn’t new for me.
There’s always some noticeable picture issue for me heh.
I’m hoping that in the future laser dimming is something that I might be able to enjoy.
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Yeah, I’ve never been able to use any DI on any projector I’ve ever owned through the years so this certainly isn’t new for me.
There’s always some noticeable picture issue for me heh.
I’m hoping that in the future laser dimming is something that I might be able to enjoy.
Laser dimming will result in similar artifacting. A dynamic iris and laser dimming are effectively doing the exact same thing, which means similar gamma manipulation will occur. Your only hope is for a less aggressive mode available to avoid the issues.
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Laser dimming will result in similar artifacting. A dynamic iris and laser dimming are effectively doing the exact same thing, which means similar gamma manipulation will occur. Your only hope is for a less aggressive mode available to avoid the issues.
Dang, it seems like many people like the RS4500 laser dimming but I have not had a chance to experience it myself.
Although with the testing I have conducted with an NX9 I think that DI was actually looking fine to me which would similarly mean that the laser dimming on the RS4500 was probably fine in the same way as well.
It seems to have to do with the lens difference in the NX9 (as to why it seemed different vs the NX5/7) which the RS4500 shares.
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I'm not saying the RS4500 has the same exact issues, just that in principle a dynamic iris and dynamic laser dimming work in the same way, therefore the software changes to the image will essentially be the same if they are both programmed to adjust light in the same way. You'll still have gamma shifts with the possibility of clipping depending on how aggressive the contrast multiplier is.
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Dang, it seems like many people like the RS4500 laser dimming but I have not had a chance to experience it myself.
Although with the testing I have conducted with an NX9 I think that DI was actually looking fine to me which would similarly mean that the laser dimming on the RS4500 was probably fine in the same way as well.
It seems to have to do with the lens difference in the NX9 (as to why it seemed different vs the NX5/7) which the RS4500 shares.
While it's true any dynamic iris system can have artifacts, the laser dimming on my RS4500 over the last 3 years has worked better than any other projector I've owned. I only use the less aggressive Mode 1 setting.
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While it's true any dynamic iris system can have artifacts, the laser dimming on my RS4500 over the last 3 years has worked better than any other projector I've owned. I only use the less aggressive Mode 1 setting.
Yeah, though I am guessing it's due to the large lens same as the NX9.
The NX9 iris is usable for me so I would imagine the 4500 iris and laser dimming are as well since they use the same optical lens part as the NX9.
All of the other JVC with iris since the RS4910 through the RS640 and NX5 and 7 have iris that are no good for me.
Problem is that I don't think I will ever own a JVC with the 100mm lens like the NX9 and RS4500 have. I am not sure they will ever have an iris or laser dimming in a lower end model that doesn't artifact so much.
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Some people are a lot more sensitive to the image changes a dynamic contrast system brings. There are extremely few dynamic contrast systems in projectors that I would say are good enough to be left on at all times. Sony and JVC's are some of the best, and in the DLP world, I'd say Runco and Sim2 are pretty good as well, but DLP in the high end space is all but dead. That is, unless we see the technology found in the Christie Eclipse trickle down in a few years. Then we wouldn't need dynamic contrast implementations at all.
If you don't care for JVCs implementation, I don't there are any out there that you'll like. Sony's dynamic contrast systems offer less in the way of clipping and color changes due to gamma shifts, but I notice the iris pump more often. The JVCs don't pump at all really with the exception being full fade to black which forces it to, but you see color changes and clipping more often. It's a pick your poison type of situation.
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If you don't care for JVCs implementation, I don't there are any out there that you'll like.
Well once again, it's not just "JVCs" implementation that I don't like. The NX9's implementation is prefect. This is zero clipping and zero visible color shift.
The NX5/7 on the other hand have a high amount of clipping and a high amount of yellow color shift.
The RS400-640 series have a very mild amount of yellowing color shift and a medium amount of clipping.
But once again, the NX9 has none of either even in my artificial extreme test pattern tests.
So JVC can obviously do it right, but so far that has only been in 1 model or very likely also the RS4500 as well.
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Which test patterns are you using? My NX9 does exhibit clipping with certain content. Yellowing doesn't seem to be as bad though, but I haven't done any sort of objective testing for that.
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Which test patterns are you using? My NX9 does exhibit clipping with certain content. Yellowing doesn't seem to be as bad though, but I haven't done any sort of objective testing for that.
Just simple ones I made. Like a black screen with a small grey square with a near white gradient.
So you can see that the gradient turns into a flat yellow color when the dynamic iris closes.
On the NX5/7 it does, on the NX9 it does not.
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Just simple ones I made. Like a black screen with a small grey square with a near white gradient.
So you can see that the gradient turns into a flat yellow color when the dynamic iris closes.
On the NX5/7 it does, on the NX9 it does not.
Like I said, I haven't done any objective testing for yellowing, but there certainly is clipping on real world video content in some instances.
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For those wanting to experiment with their xRite i1 display Pro (i1d3) in the JVC Autocal V11 (V12 hasn't been confirmed as working yet), there is now a website in English explaining the procedure [link temporarily removed].
Please ask questions to the author directly, or in another forum, because I don't have an i1d3 anymore, so haven't been able to test this.
I've added the link to the index for reference.
[edit 03-30-20: the author has asked to remove all links to his webpage while the legal situation of this unofficial hack is assessed. Please remove it from your replies if you have quoted this post. Thank you.]
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Interesting reading anyway, thks for the heads-up.
Just a by the way question : there is no manual way to engage the cinefilter ? Or is there ?
There are IP commands to do so.
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There are IP commands to do so.
As the filter is part of the group that use the same color calibration, and that the filter is an automatic setting as per the color profile, I was wondering if there was also a separate manual way, now I know there isn't ..... ( IP is not an option for me ).Thks
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Manni, have you seen the author's latest comment on his website ?
That's really too bad if ever JVC was going to ban the mod, as it is in fact an improvement making the JVC's autocal even more appealing not forgetting that JVC does not offer the i1D3 support.
Several forumers here (French HCFR) have already tested the mod and it appears to be very good indeed.
In the mean time I have received a reply from Steven, he took it away by himself as his mod was spreading fast and he feared some "mailing" from JVC lawiers. He contacted JVC and is now waiting an answer.
No, I hadn't seen this, thanks for letting me know.
I've taken the links away until further notice, following the author's request. Please take them out of your replies as you've quoted my post a few times and I can't edit you posts.
It would be great if JVC added official id3 support indeed, it's been asked for a long time.
I guess their concern is warranty issues from users if the unsupported modified software was causing any issue.
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Done, but I did not quote your post really, I only mentionned your name (once) so that the kudos of having found that nice possibility go you 8)
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Done, but I did not quote your post really, I only mentionned your name (once) so that the kudos of having found that nice possibility go you 8)
You quoted my post twice, and the link is still in the quote, in the two posts below :)
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg16223#msg16223 (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg16223#msg16223)
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg16315#msg16315 (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg16315#msg16315)
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You quoted my post twice, and the link is still in the quote, in the two posts below :)
OK posts removed, I got it now, you meant the links in your replies that I quoted in THIS forum ..... ???
I mentionned your name once in our french forum ....... You know the kudos ... 8)
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Is everyone under the consensus that the Spyder X works fine for gamma only? I've only used the Spyder 5, but I just pulled the trigger on the X since I read it was so much faster with the 33 point autocal.
My plan is to run the gamma for the below combinations...
SDR: rec709 > gamma 2.4 > 6500k > low lamp > -7 iris (currently 16.5 FL)
HDR: bt.2020 > gamma st.2084 > HDR temp > low lamp > 0 iris (currently 25 FL) *will be using frame by frame DTM
MadVR: bt.2020 > gamma 2.4 > 6500k > low lamp > -5 iris (currently 55 nits) *HSTM DTM
Am I missing anything or does this sound ok?
Thanks again for the write up Manni,
Jeremy
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Is everyone under the consensus that the Spyder X works fine for gamma only? I've only used the Spyder 5, but I just pulled the trigger on the X since I read it was so much faster with the 33 point autocal.
My plan is to run the gamma for the below combinations...
SDR: rec709 > gamma 2.4 > 6500k > low lamp > -7 iris (currently 16.5 FL)
HDR: bt.2020 > gamma st.2084 > HDR temp > low lamp > 0 iris (currently 25 FL) *will be using frame by frame DTM
MadVR: bt.2020 > gamma 2.4 > 6500k > low lamp > -5 iris (currently 55 nits) *HSTM DTM
Am I missing anything or does this sound ok?
Thanks again for the write up Manni,
Jeremy
Hi Jeremy,
Yes Spyder X is about twice as fast, so it does make a big difference for the 33 steps gamma. Just make sure you don't use it for color.
Your plan sounds good, though you could use P3 instead of BT2020 for your madVR calibration. It's especially recommended if you plan to generate a 3D LUT with madVR. Otherwise, BT2020 is fine and can be used by other consumer sources converting to SDR.
If you only plan to use madVR with this calibration and if you do plan to use a 3D LUT, I suggest setting your baseline to P3 gamma 2.2, as you'll need to use a 2.2 target for the LUT. It's only the target that needs to be 2.2, so the baseline on the display can be 2.4, it will just mean more (unnecessary) correction for the LUT.
Good luck!
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SDR: rec709 > gamma 2.4 > 6500k > low lamp > -7 iris (currently 16.5 FL)
Hi Jeremy,
Yes Spyder X is about twice as fast, so it does make a big difference for the 33 steps gamma. Just make sure you don't use it for color.
Manni, could I get clarification on one point here, since I have seen conflicting statements from very knowledgeable individuals on this issue.
When doing a Gamma Autocalibration, it has been my understanding that it is best to do this with the Aperture wide open, regardless of what Aperture you would actually be using. This would provide the most light, for greatest accuracy, at the dim end of the scale.
Further, and as a corollary of this, it was also my understanding that there is only one "slot" available for Gamma for a given set of parameters - that if you did it with Aperture 0, and then did one at Aperture -7, the latter would overwrite the former.
I'll freely acknowledge I may have this completely wrong, and hope you don't mind my asking for clarification, for myself, and whoever else might be confused about this.
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No worries, both statements above are correct, you got it right :)
Gamma autocal with the iris fully open is the recommended way (especially with 33 steps) to maximise readings near black, and if you redo it at any other iris setting, it will replace the previous calibration (assuming same filter / lamp setting of course).
In the post you quoted, unless I got it wrong, the SDR has no filter, and the HDR has the filter, so it should be two different gamma slots. However I was thinking rs2000/3000. You are correct that if the OP has an rs1000 without a filter, then the second gamma calibration would replace the first one, as the lamp mode is the same (low) and there is no filter for the rs1000.
Whether to OP does the SDR gamma autocal at -7 or 0 (assuming, again, a model with the filter switched off for SDR) depends on whether he gets zero readings at -7 or not. If he does, he can do the SDR gamma at zero and move the iris back to -7 for color (if there is any color autocal done). If there is no filter, then he should only take one gamma autocal in the HDR mode (iris open) as it will also apply to the SDR calibration (same lamp mode, same filter mode).
I read the post as indicating the final settings for the different calibration, not as suggesting that the recommendation of doing gamma with the iris open wouldn't be followed.
In any case, useful clarification :)
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No worries, both statements above are correct, you got it right :)
Gamma autocal with the iris fully open is the recommended way (especially with 33 steps) to maximise readings near black, and if you redo it at any other iris setting, it will replace the previous calibration (assuming same filter / lamp setting of course).
In the post you quoted, unless I got it wrong, the SDR has no filter, and the HDR has the filter, so it should be two different gamma slots. However I was thinking rs2000/3000. You are correct that if the OP has an rs1000 without a filter, then the second gamma calibration would replace the first one, as the lamp mode is the same (low) and there is no filter for the rs1000.
Whether to OP does the SDR gamma autocal at -7 or 0 (assuming, again, a model with the filter switched off for SDR) depends on whether he gets zero readings at -7 or not. If he does, he can do the SDR gamma at zero and move the iris back to -7 for color (if there is any color autocal done). If there is no filter, then he should only take one gamma autocal in the HDR mode (iris open) as it will also apply to the SDR calibration (same lamp mode, same filter mode).
I read the post as indicating the final settings for the different calibration, not as suggesting that the recommendation of doing gamma with the iris open wouldn't be followed.
In any case, useful clarification :)
Thank you Manni for your help as always. In the past I had always done 1 gamma calibration at the 0 iris position (each with and without the filter in place), but I read where Kris Deering said that there are different gamma tables just like the color in autocal. As a result, I read that to mean that I should run the autocal at each iris position I plan on using. In this case for SDR would be -7 for my desired brightness. Maybe I misread his quote from avsforum...
original poster..
"The different aperture ranges are only for colour calibration (which includes grey scale). There are no separate gamma tables for different aperture ranges."
from Kris...
"Umm, this is not correct. The tables are indeed for gamma/grayscale. What he is seeing here is probably a bump in overall output because the table he is in is LESS accurate (the balance of RGB). If you want the entire range of the aperture to be correct, you have to do a full GAMMA calibration for each range in the JVC software. Color is important too because it balances the white point more than the gamma does in their software."
I apologize if I misunderstood Kris' response.
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I have seen this post from Kris and it doesn't tally with my experience, but I could be wrong because I have only used one iris setting per calibration for a long time, so things could have changed.
It's easy to check, but time consuming:
- Load the INIT file to get back to factory settings to bring back the worst possible pre-cal state.
- In the same calibration, say SDR rec-709 with a 2.2 gamma to make logs reading in the autocal easier:
- Measure gamma at 0, -4, -8 and -12 (preferably with another software and a known, accurate meter, otherwise autocal log only is fine) and take screenshot of each.
- Do a 33 steps gamma+color calibration at 0 and a color only at -4, -8 and -12 (recommended autocal with official range points).
- Measure gamma at 0, -4, -8 and -12 and take screenshots of each. Is it better at all iris apertures? This would confirm that a gamma calibration applies to all ranges for the same calibration (even without using "apply to all", which as far as I know applies to all lamp and filter settings).
- Do a gamma only calibration at -12.
- Measure gamma at -12 and take a screenshot. Is it better than before the -12 gamma calibration, especially near black? This would confirm that a gamma calibration at the iris setting used by the calibration provides better results (this could be the case by the way as long as no measurement returns zero). I often do my gamma calibration at the iris setting that I actually use for a given calibration, unless it returns zero readings for R,G or G for the first step near black.
- Measure gamma at 0 and take a screenshot. Is it worse than before the -12 gamma calibration, especially near black? This would confirm that a second gamma calibration without changing filter or lamp mode replaces the previous one.
If I had the time or the inclination, I would run these tests, but I don't. :)
If anyone has the time and the inclination to run them, please post your findings (with screenshots). Kris might be right. He knows his stuff.
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I appreciate all the help Manni. Quick question about the picture preset before running the autocal.
For all gamma autocal, Should I use 2.2 (and then adjust to 2.4 after running the 33 step process) or just use 2.4 to start with?
With MadVR you mention using DCI colorspace over bt.2020 with gamma 2.2. I’m not familiar with LUT so should I still do this way?
MadVR Preset before autocal:
DCI with 2.2 or bt.2020 with 2.4?
I’m sorry for all the questions, but those were the last couple I was confused on.
Thanks again
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I appreciate all the help Manni. Quick question about the picture preset before running the autocal.
For all gamma autocal, Should I use 2.2 (and then adjust to 2.4 after running the 33 step process) or just use 2.4 to start with?
With MadVR you mention using DCI colorspace over bt.2020 with gamma 2.2. I’m not familiar with LUT so should I still do this way?
MadVR Preset before autocal:
DCI with 2.2 or bt.2020 with 2.4?
I’m sorry for all the questions, but those were the last couple I was confused on.
Thanks again
No worries. :)
As explained in the basic guide, when you run a gamma autocal, all the curves are corrected (2.2. 2.4, PQ, etc).
Because the log in the autocal always shows 2.2 as a reference (and not the selected target), it's easier to select 2.2 during calibration: if the log after cal is a straight line, you know the autocal went well, according to the Spyder. If you select any other gamma target and don't use a third party software to check your calibration, then it's much more difficult to know how it went. So the advice is to select 2.2 during the autocal, and select your actual target afterwards, or if you're confident the autocal is working well select your target for a possible minor improvement. I personally wouldn't do that if I wasn't checking the calibration afterwards.
Re the target for your madVR SDR calibration, forget about 2.2 / DCI if you don't plan to run a 3D LUT. BT2020 2.4 is fine, as you originally plan. Just don't run another gamma autocal for this calibration because it would replace your HDR one (same lamp mode, same filter mode). Just decide which calibration is more important to you, and run a single gamma for both (or for all if you don't have the filter / prefer not to use it for SDR / HDR wide gamut).
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Awesome. Thanks again
Since I should only run one autocal per lamp mode and filter, I was thinking of doing the two runs below...
1. HDR without color filter: HDR gamma curve st2084 to be used with JVCs DTM, which I use for gaming
2. HDR with color filter: SDR gamma curve (2.2 at first) to be used with MadVR, which I use for movies.
Sound correct?
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Awesome. Thanks again
Since I should only run one autocal per lamp mode and filter, I was thinking of doing the two runs below...
1. HDR without color filter: HDR gamma curve st2084 to be used with JVCs DTM, which I use for gaming
2. HDR with color filter: SDR gamma curve (2.2 at first) to be used with MadVR, which I use for movies.
Sound correct?
Yes, as long as you don’t plan to do a separate run for your rec-709 sdr calibration, as it would override / be replaced by 1. (Same filter, same lamp mode).
personally I would run a gamma autocal iris open for your rec-709 sdr calibration (that would also correct your gaming no filter HDR mode in low lamp) and a gamma autocal also iris open for the 2. above with the filter, because I’d optimize the movie calibrations. But the differences should be small.
Then I would run a color autocal at -7 for you SDR calibration, and two color autocal iris open, one for each HDR calibration above as they don’t use the same filter mode.
Unless you want to be able to change iris settings for a calibration, there is no need to do more.
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Thank you Manni!
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Last question and I promise I’ll leave you alone. Haha
You mentioned...
“Yes, as long as you don’t plan to do a separate run for your rec-709 sdr calibration, as it would override / be replaced by 1. (Same filter, same lamp mode).”
If I understand the above correctly, it doesn’t matter what gamma curve I preselect for autocal as long as the filter and lamp match?
In other words, preset HDR (no color filter) with st2084 curve would be the same as if I preselected rec709 with a SDR 2.2 gamma curve?
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Last question and I promise I’ll leave you alone. Haha
You mentioned...
“Yes, as long as you don’t plan to do a separate run for your rec-709 sdr calibration, as it would override / be replaced by 1. (Same filter, same lamp mode).”
If I understand the above correctly, it doesn’t matter what gamma curve I preselect for autocal as long as the filter and lamp match?
In other words, preset HDR (no color filter) with st2084 curve would be the same as if I preselected rec709 with a SDR 2.2 gamma curve?
Yes, from a gamma autocal point of view your two calibrations share the same gamma slot. Autocal corrects all the gamma curves for a given lamp/filter combo every time you run it. This is why irrespective of the calibration, it’s recommended to use 2.2 so the log makes more sense. You then switch to whichever gamma target (power or PQ) afterwards.
You might need to (re)read the basic section, all this is explained there in detail. :)
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That makes sense. Thank you
I’m embarrassed to say I’ve read your guide a couple of times, but I guess a few things went over my head.
I feel I have a pretty good understanding now of what to do. I really appreciate your help.
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I recently received a new NX7 I will be setting up for a friend. I have it setup at 16' throw to a 120" wide 16:9 image size on a ST100 microperf screen. For calibration, is used a Spyder X and i1 Basic Pro 2 (for both Autocal and Chromapure).
My first concern as you can see in the attached, is how much green push there was. The "before" was before autocal with about 15 hours on the bulb. Then after autocal, it was still tracking a bit warm and with green push so I still had to make adjustments to the color balance and CMS to dial it in more. Is this cause for concern?
Secondly, I can't seem to get the brightness to a level I'd expect. To get 20 FL for HDR, I need high bulb with -2 iris. That seems a bit abnormal too?
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I assume you've used the i1pro for color and the Spyder X for gamma with the JVC Autocal, both facing the screen?
This is a large-ish nominal gain screen at mid to long throw (not sure, I didn't punch in the numbers), but it does seem a bit dim. The lamp could be a dud. How does it measure before the JVC Autocal?
Also what are your gains settings after adjustment?
If you used the i1pro2 for color only and the Spyder X for gamma only, you should have little manual correction after autocal (usually only a couple of clicks one one or two channels). Make sure the screen type is disabled.
You need to look at the brightness before Autocal (if you don't have that, you need to restore the INIT file) and after autocal, before any gains adjustments, so we know where the loss comes from.
If you still think still it's abnormally dim (lumens-wise) after an INIT restore, measure high bright iris open in high lamp and ask your dealer if it's normal.
If brightness is fine pre-autocal, then something wrong is taking place with the autocal or when you adjust the gains.
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This might be a shot in the dark, but for your dim lamp levels do you happen to know if you have the HDMI level is et on auto?
The reason I ask is when I was measuring brightness I was getting lower brightness levels than normal. When I switched back to 16-234 (from auto) my brightness increased back to normal range for these units.
This was when I originally had my unit professionally calibrated and the meter used was a Klein K10.
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I assume you've used the i1pro for color and the Spyder X for gamma with the JVC Autocal, both facing the screen?
This is a large-ish nominal gain screen at mid to long throw (not sure, I didn't punch in the numbers), but it does seem a bit dim. The lamp could be a dud. How does it measure before the JVC Autocal?
Also what are your gains settings after adjustment?
If you used the i1pro2 for color only and the Spyder X for gamma only, you should have little manual correction after autocal (usually only a couple of clicks one one or two channels). Make sure the screen type is disabled.
You need to look at the brightness before Autocal (if you don't have that, you need to restore the INIT file) and after autocal, before any gains adjustments, so we know where the loss comes from.
If you still think still it's abnormally dim (lumens-wise) after an INIT restore, measure high bright iris open in high lamp and ask your dealer if it's normal.
If brightness is fine pre-autocal, then something wrong is taking place with the autocal or when you adjust the gains.
Correct, i1Pro for color and Spyder X for gamma, positioned as you suggest in your notes. Spyder about 12" from the screen and i1 about 2'-3'. Screen type is disabled and 16' is certainly toward the front end of the throw range. Honestly the extreme green push was more concerning to me than the brightness issue since these are supposedly so good OoB.
Unfortunately I didn't write down the before numbers but I thought they were low as well. Going from memory, I want to say the loss was roughly 10% or a touch more after calibration which I figured is normal. I think high bulb, 0 iris before anything I was getting right at 300 Lux, which would be about 26 ftL. Low bulb at 0 was maxing out just under 200 Lux or just over 17 FtL and after cal it is about 180, or just under 16 FtL.
I'm not near the unit right now but I had to adjust green/red gain down in the lower teens (blue was left at 0). I also had to drop green/bias a few clicks, not as much though. This was the case for both 6500 SDR and the HDR preset.
I did just get the free lamp from the promotion, so maybe I'll load the Init file and start fresh with that bulb to see where things are at. If it seems better, I could contact the dealer or JVC about the original bulb.
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This might be a shot in the dark, but for your dim lamp levels do you happen to know if you have the HDMI level is et on auto?
The reason I ask is when I was measuring brightness I was getting lower brightness levels than normal. When I switched back to 16-234 (from auto) my brightness increased back to normal range for these units.
This was when I originally had my unit professionally calibrated and the meter used was a Klein K10.
Yep this was on auto. Maybe I'll try that too.
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Correct, i1Pro for color and Spyder X for gamma, positioned as you suggest in your notes. Spyder about 12" from the screen and i1 about 2'-3'. Screen type is disabled and 16' is certainly toward the front end of the throw range. Honestly the extreme green push was more concerning to me than the brightness issue since these are supposedly so good OoB.
Unfortunately I didn't write down the before numbers but I thought they were low as well. Going from memory, I want to say the loss was roughly 10% or a touch more after calibration which I figured is normal. I think high bulb, 0 iris before anything I was getting right at 300 Lux, which would be about 26 ftL. Low bulb at 0 was maxing out just under 200 Lux or just over 17 FtL and after cal it is about 180, or just under 16 FtL.
I'm not near the unit right now but I had to adjust green/red gain down in the lower teens (blue was left at 0). I also had to drop green/bias a few clicks, not as much though. This was the case for both 6500 SDR and the HDR preset.
I did just get the free lamp from the promotion, so maybe I'll load the Init file and start fresh with that bulb to see where things are at. If it seems better, I could contact the dealer or JVC about the original bulb.
10% drop for calibration sounds fine.
You need to measure high bright in high lamp (gains reset to 0) after the restore of the init file before giving any numbers to JVC. that's how peak brightness is measured as per the specs.
Sure if you have a spare bulb, try it. It's always good to try it right away in case it's a dud... You can always put it back. It's not frequent but it can happen.
I'd sort out the bulb brightness before discussing calibration. A significant adjustment for the gains after a JVC color autocal with the i1pro2 isn't to be expected, so something is fishy here.
Yes it's a good idea to force video levels (as long as you're not a gamer), that's what I do.
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10% drop for calibration sounds fine.
You need to measure high bright in high lamp (gains reset to 0) after the restore of the init file before giving any numbers to JVC. that's how peak brightness is measured as per the specs.
Sure if you have a spare bulb, try it. It's always good to try it right away in case it's a dud... You can always put it back. It's not frequent but it can happen.
I'd sort out the bulb brightness before discussing calibration. A significant adjustment for the gains after a JVC color autocal with the i1pro2 isn't to be expected, so something is fishy here.
Yes it's a good idea to force video levels (as long as you're not a gamer), that's what I do.
Will do. I'll load the Init and start from scratch and see what we got. Thanks Manni!
For what it's worth I did a used RS1000 with about 120 hours about a month back and things turned out beautifully, that's my baseline for concern with this new unit.
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Alright, I reset the Init file and all settings. Here are the numbers for a 100% full field white pattern.
I also did the pre-cal measurements and green is definitely tracking really high, blue slightly low and red really low. That just seems odd to be so far off out of the box. The below image is with bt.709, gamma 2.2. HDR results are similar.
Thoughts?
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Alright, I reset the Init file and all settings. Here are the numbers for a 100% full field white pattern.
I also did the pre-cal measurements and green is definitely tracking really high, blue slightly low and red really low. That just seems odd to be so far off out of the box. The below image is with bt.709, gamma 2.2. HDR results are similar.
Thoughts?
JVC lamps tend to be red deficient, so a push on green is to be expected before calibration. Your lumens seem normal, it looks like you would hit the specs of 1800 lumens if you were to measure High Bright in high lamp, as I suggested.
Though full field is recommended after an autocal (to match the Autocal), it usually drops your brightness a bit. The numbers should be a bit higher with a 25-50% size pattern.
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JVC lamps tend to be red deficient, so a push on green is to be expected before calibration. Your lumens seem normal, it looks like you would hit the specs of 1800 lumens if you were to measure High Bright in high lamp, as I suggested.
Though full field is recommended after an autocal (to match the Autocal), it usually drops your brightness a bit. The numbers should be a bit higher with a 25-50% size pattern.
Doh, sorry I missed the high bright setting. Thanks for taking a look, I really appreciate it.
This time I'll grab some measurements post auto-cal just to make sure it's not too far off, but I feel much better knowing it seems normal.
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My initial D65 measurement showed that it was spread out. I did an autocal using a SpyderX and it corrected the D65 measurements as expected. However, I do recall a drop in overall nits. I don't have the meter for doing a proper white point with Autocal. I use a CR-100 (profiled to a CR-250) and LightSpace for doing my calibrations. I am wondering if just doing the gamma correction with Autocal is giving me the best starting point? Does Autocal adjust RGB to give maximum gains as a starting point? Is there a workaround to set the white point without the i1pro2?
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My initial D65 measurement showed that it was spread out. I did an autocal using a SpyderX and it corrected the D65 measurements as expected. However, I do recall a drop in overall nits. I don't have the meter for doing a proper white point with Autocal. I use a CR-100 (profiled to a CR-250) and LightSpace for doing my calibrations. I am wondering if just doing the gamma correction with Autocal is giving me the best starting point? Does Autocal adjust RGB to give maximum gains as a starting point? Is there a workaround to set the white point without the i1pro2?
If you're only using the Spyder then don't do a color autocal, that's probably what caused your brightness drop. Only use the Spyder for gamma.
You can use the spreadsheet method to correct the Spyder using your CR-250, but that's quite involved and currently only documented for CM and HCFR, not for Lightspace.
I would restore the INIT file, do a gamma only Autocal with the Spyder, and then adjust with the CR100 trained to the CR250 in Lightspace. You shouldn't get such a brightness drop that way.
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My initial D65 measurement showed that it was spread out. I did an autocal using a SpyderX and it corrected the D65 measurements as expected. However, I do recall a drop in overall nits. I don't have the meter for doing a proper white point with Autocal. I use a CR-100 (profiled to a CR-250) and LightSpace for doing my calibrations. I am wondering if just doing the gamma correction with Autocal is giving me the best starting point? Does Autocal adjust RGB to give maximum gains as a starting point? Is there a workaround to set the white point without the i1pro2?
There’s a “sanity check” that you can easily perform to see if you’re losing brightness from autocal:
- switch to a User Mode and set the colour profile to Off, which in turn will switch the Color Temp to High Bright
- set HCFR (or whatever calibration program you use) to use RGB Instead of xyY
- measure the peak white luminance
- let's say you get R/G/B=165/185/175; note the lowest reading (165 in this example)
- switch the Color Temp to D65 (6500K), and re-measure the peak white luminance. Hopefully all three readings are close to one another.
If the D65 reading is close to the lowest HighBright reading, then Autocal is not causing you to lose brightness. Ideally, after colour Autocal it should give you 165/165/165. If it’s too far off, you can use HighBright and adjust the RGB gains to give you D65.
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Manni, I've re-read your basic section about the meters, you do mention the 2 I1 Pro2 driver versions : 2006 and 2009 but no hint as to which one is best.
Got news about that or is just a no question ?
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All I can say is that I'm using the April 2009 driver (see attached) and there is no need to press the button in the JVC Autocal. I just select the i1pro2 in the software once I've place the meter on the calibration plate, and wait 10-15s. The JVC does the init, displays the pattern and moves to the next screen. This is with Windows 10 Pro x66 (build 1909).
The same driver also works great with Calman (which support the button) and Lightspace (which doesn't support the button).
I wish they all supported the button to do a white calibration, it would make the process a lot easier when the meter isn't next to your laptop/PC.
YYMV :)
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I have the same versions than you ( Win and X-rite) so maybe my memories are a bit dated.
I'll soon know if I get the environment to do another autocal one of these days ...
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I finally had a chance to run some calibrations and I said I'd report back what I saw, so here it is for SDR. In short, it almost seemed to have over-corrected a touch and was running warm after auto-cal, but I was able to decently level things out to be very close to D65 down until about 40% where it started tracking a bit warm and I simply was unable to level things out.
Picture 1: Before/after autocal greyscale
Picture 2: After additional manual greyscale calibration
Picture 3: Color gamut before/after autocal
Picture 4: Color gamut after additional color calibration
General question - am I better with my additional manual calibration or just leaving it where it was after autocal? Here is how I had to change the white balance correction values to balance things out as much as possible.
Gain Red: -8
Gain Green: -3
Gain Blue: 0
Offset Red: -3
Offset Green: 1
Offset Blue 0
For CMS, I had to change Green, Red and Blue a touch, but nothing more than 4 clicks. Seems ok to me?
I have a few more questions on HDR I'll post when i get to it.
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I finally had a chance to run some calibrations and I said I'd report back what I saw, so here it is for SDR. In short, it almost seemed to have over-corrected a touch and was running warm after auto-cal, but I was able to decently level things out to be very close to D65 down until about 40% where it started tracking a bit warm and I simply was unable to level things out.
Picture 1: Before/after autocal greyscale
Picture 2: After additional manual greyscale calibration
Picture 3: Color gamut before/after autocal
Picture 4: Color gamut after additional color calibration
General question - am I better with my additional manual calibration or just leaving it where it was after autocal? Here is how I had to change the white balance correction values to balance things out as much as possible.
Gain Red: -8
Gain Green: -3
Gain Blue: 0
Offset Red: -3
Offset Green: 1
Offset Blue 0
For CMS, I had to change Green, Red and Blue a touch, but nothing more than 4 clicks. Seems ok to me?
I have a few more questions on HDR I'll post when i get to it.
I wouldn't touch the RGB offsets. Specifically increasing them to positive numbers which usually negatively affects your native contrast ratio to some extent.
After autocal, dial in your 100% white with RGB Gains and then use the gamma editor in autocal to dial in your white balance in 12 points across the greyscale. You can get it pretty much perfect with that.
Also I would measure and check your gamma curve as well. Modifying the RGB offsets will affect your gamma too.
If you calibrate your greyscale with the gamma editor you can calibrate both white balance and gamma at the same time.
Also also, when measuring your gamut like you have shown, you need to make sure you are also measuring saturation tracking through the gamut, not just the primaries. If you adjusted your CMS just to align the primaries you *may* have screwed up your saturation tracking for colors within the gamut.
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Will do. I'll load the Init and start from scratch and see what we got. Thanks Manni!
For what it's worth I did a used RS1000 with about 120 hours about a month back and things turned out beautifully, that's my baseline for concern with this new unit.
I autocal'd that RS1000 before you got it :P
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I autocal'd that RS1000 before you got it :P
That RS1000 has been setup for some time and they are very happy with it! This is a new NX-7.
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I wouldn't touch the RGB offsets. Specifically increasing them to positive numbers which usually negatively affects your native contrast ratio to some extent.
After autocal, dial in your 100% white with RGB Gains and then use the gamma editor in autocal to dial in your white balance in 12 points across the greyscale. You can get it pretty much perfect with that.
Also I would measure and check your gamma curve as well. Modifying the RGB offsets will affect your gamma too.
If you calibrate your greyscale with the gamma editor you can calibrate both white balance and gamma at the same time.
Also also, when measuring your gamut like you have shown, you need to make sure you are also measuring saturation tracking through the gamut, not just the primaries. If you adjusted your CMS just to align the primaries you *may* have screwed up your saturation tracking for colors within the gamut.
The after gamma tracks to 2.4 very well, so it didn't seem to impact that. I'll have to experiment with the gamma editor method you mention as I've only run the auto-cal color/gamma so far.
I'll double check the tracking for non-primaries as well - ChromePure makes that quite easy. They were looking pretty good from what I recall.
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The after gamma tracks to 2.4 very well, so it didn't seem to impact that. I'll have to experiment with the gamma editor method you mention as I've only run the auto-cal color/gamma so far.
I'll double check the tracking for non-primaries as well - ChromePure makes that quite easy. They were looking pretty good from what I recall.
To get started with the gamma editor, set your JVC to Custom1 and the correction value to Import.
Now when you select Custom1 in the gamma editor in autocal, you will have a real-time adjustment of 12 points.
The points I believe (by memory) are 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 95.
So in your pattern generator or pattern source, bring up the appropriate matching white level pattern for the point you are working on, and then you can adjust each RGB color individually in autocal for that point and also move all 3 points together to manipulate the gamma. The points in between will be smoothed between the points you are modifying.
The benefit is you have many more points than 2 to adjust, and you can raise and lower them without worry of messing with your black floor and contrast ratio.
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To get started with the gamma editor, set your JVC to Custom1 and the correction value to Import.
Now when you select Custom1 in the gamma editor in autocal, you will have a real-time adjustment of 12 points.
The points I believe (by memory) are 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 95.
So in your pattern generator or pattern source, bring up the appropriate matching white level pattern for the point you are working on, and then you can adjust each RGB color individually in autocal for that point and also move all 3 points together to manipulate the gamma. The points in between will be smoothed between the points you are modifying.
The benefit is you have many more points than 2 to adjust, and you can raise and lower them without worry of messing with your black floor and contrast ratio.
I'll give this a try when a get chance. Can you do the same for HDR? That was all over the place and I made major RGB changes which apparently I should not have done.
Attached is before and after and the auto-cal was somewhat in between, but with overly warm. The auto-cal whitepoint was barely above 6200 if I recall right. Red and Green were too high and blue was too low, that's why the RG gain was reduced so much.
Gain Red: -5
Gain Green: -11
Gain Blue: 0
Offset Red: -5
Offset Green: 8
Offset Blue - 10
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I'll give this a try when a get chance. Can you do the same for HDR? That was all over the place and I made major RGB changes which apparently I should not have done.
Attached is before and after and the auto-cal was somewhat in between, but with overly warm. The auto-cal whitepoint was barely above 6200 if I recall right. Red and Green were too high and blue was too low, that's why the RG gain was reduced so much.
Gain Red: -5
Gain Green: -11
Gain Blue: 0
Offset Red: -5
Offset Green: 8
Offset Blue - 10
You can't really do any calibration for HDR Frame Adapt other than autocal. Everything is locked in Frame Adapt mode.
You can calibrate HDR10 mode, but I don't think it's worth it as Frame Adapt is just so much better in respect to tone mapping than HDR10 mode.
I am very surprised by your measurements after autocal. After autocal my white balance is under 1.5dE across the board (50% and 100% color temps are less than 50 off 6500K) and doesn't require any RGB gain adjustments and only if I am being super picky a teeny tiny bit of tweaking with the 12 point gamma editor if I want it all under 1dE.
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You can't really do any calibration for HDR Frame Adapt other than autocal. Everything is locked in Frame Adapt mode.
You can calibrate HDR10 mode, but I don't think it's worth it as Frame Adapt is just so much better in respect to tone mapping than HDR10 mode.
I am very surprised by your measurements after autocal. After autocal my white balance is under 1.5dE across the board (50% and 100% color temps are less than 50 off 6500K) and doesn't require any RGB gain adjustments and only if I am being super picky a teeny tiny bit of tweaking with the 12 point gamma editor if I want it all under 1dE.
Good to know - so calibrating BT2020, HDR Color Temp or HDR (PQ) gamma manually does not impact Frame Adapt. But autocal of those modes in a user mode other than Frame Adapt does apply to Frame Adapt. Is that what you're saying?
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Good to know - so calibrating BT2020, HDR Color Temp or HDR (PQ) gamma manually does not impact Frame Adapt. But autocal of those modes in a user mode other than Frame Adapt does apply to Frame Adapt. Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, you've got it.
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Yeah, you've got it.
Now I'm even more mixed up here. I did the gamma correction as you suggested in the autocal module with a target of 2.3 and things were beautiful. Then I went back about 15 minutes later and everything was running very cool, so I don't know what's going on. Note that the projector had been on an hour before doing the initial correction so that shouldn't be an issue. All settings were unchanged.
First picture shows greyscale tracking after autocal then after doing the RGB Gamma corrections. Then the second picture shows checking the exact same thing 15 minutes later. The gamma changes should not effect a 100% white pattern right? I literally had that at even 100% RGB across the board, same for 90% and 80% and then it changed.
For what it's worth, I'm using the Spyder X corrected to the i1 Pro2 in Chromapure for these readings.
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Now I'm even more mixed up here. I did the gamma correction as you suggested in the autocal module with a target of 2.3 and things were beautiful. Then I went back about 15 minutes later and everything was running very cool, so I don't know what's going on. Note that the projector had been on an hour before doing the initial correction so that shouldn't be an issue. All settings were unchanged.
First picture shows greyscale tracking after autocal then after doing the RGB Gamma corrections. Then the second picture shows checking the exact same thing 15 minutes later. The gamma changes should not effect a 100% white pattern right? I literally had that at even 100% RGB across the board, same for 90% and 80% and then it changed.
For what it's worth, I'm using the Spyder X corrected to the i1 Pro2 in Chromapure for these readings.
Correct that the gamma editor cannot affect 100% white.
If you saw changes to your measurement after 15 minutes than something has to have drifted. Either the projector drifted or the meter drifted or the meter placement changed or something of that nature.
I have noticed for example that when I turn on high altitude mode on my NX5, the white balance drifts massively, like more than 5dE just a few minutes after the fan speeds up from the high altitude mode due to the temperature change in the projector.
I understand that you aren't changing anything, but I would have to say something is drifting somewhere, somehow.
My NX5 does not seem to drift in my environment nor does my i1D3 meter at least not by much over my sometimes multi hour calibration sessions and I always warm my projector up for somewhere between 30-60 min before I start.
The meters also need to be warmed up too for at least as long so keep them plugged in and warm during your session.
Maybe try making a new correction for the Spyder5 and see how that compares.
All I can suggest to try is if you see it change in 15 minutes, how about start interactively measuring white with your Spyder5 after you dial it all in, and just watch the live reading over 15-30 minutes. See if it slowly drifts.
I mean you are sure you saved your custom gamma curve after and kept the projector in custom# and correction import right?
In order to use your calibration you must have your User mode set to your Custom gamma slot and you must have your correction value set to import in order for it to use your custom autocal curve.
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Correct that the gamma editor cannot affect 100% white.
If you saw changes to your measurement after 15 minutes than something has to have drifted. Either the projector drifted or the meter drifted or the meter placement changed or something of that nature.
I have noticed for example that when I turn on high altitude mode on my NX5, the white balance drifts massively, like more than 5dE just a few minutes after the fan speeds up from the high altitude mode due to the temperature change in the projector.
I understand that you aren't changing anything, but I would have to say something is drifting somewhere, somehow.
My NX5 does not seem to drift in my environment nor does my i1D3 meter at least not by much over my sometimes multi hour calibration sessions and I always warm my projector up for somewhere between 30-60 min before I start.
The meters also need to be warmed up too for at least as long so keep them plugged in and warm during your session.
Maybe try making a new correction for the Spyder5 and see how that compares.
All I can suggest to try is if you see it change in 15 minutes, how about start interactively measuring white with your Spyder5 after you dial it all in, and just watch the live reading over 15-30 minutes. See if it slowly drifts.
I mean you are sure you saved your custom gamma curve after and kept the projector in custom# and correction import right?
In order to use your calibration you must have your User mode set to your Custom gamma slot and you must have your correction value set to import in order for it to use your custom autocal curve.
I'll try again tonight but the projector had been on over an hour and the Spyder X had been plugged in equally as long and not moved at all. No projector settings were changed and I am indeed using custom gamma and import.
I did save it - do you need to import that saved gamma file or should it already be applied? I did the import but figured it would be setting the same, and didn't notice a difference.
Regardless, thanks for the help here, I really appreciate it. And btw, I did auto-call on the RS1000 and the after auto-cal results were good enough I barely tweaked anything and didn't have these issues. It just seems very odd the troubles I'm having with this unit.
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I did save it - do you need to import that saved gamma file or should it already be applied? I did the import but figured it would be setting the same, and didn't notice a difference.
You don’t have to import it after saving or anything like that.
Since you are editing it live, when you are done it should just stay applied to that slot.
Saving it is just useful if you want to change it and restore back to that saved state later.
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You don’t have to import it after saving or anything like that.
Since you are editing it live, when you are done it should just stay applied to that slot.
Saving it is just useful if you want to change it and restore back to that saved state later.
Last thought - I wonder if the Spyder X reading off the screen is throwing off the reliability of the color balance versus the 5 reading off the lens. I'll have to look back and see what Manni said about that (I've ready through his guide 3 times, you'd think I'd know this). :)
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The spyder 5 does not take the screen into account.
I had the 5 and X and I1Pro2 simultaneously and made a correction matrix of both the 5 and X against the I1Pro2, and the corrections of the X were a lot less than those that the 5 required.
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Alright, I'm giving up on the white balance/gamma deal. I re-did it today and it remained closer, not perfect but closer. All Delta Es stayed under 1 down to 40% and down to 20% were under 3.
To the Frame Adapt HDR question, here is what the primary and saturation gamuts look like for color. These are taken in FA mode, while the color calibration was taken in a user mode with BT2020 (same lamp and iris settings). Does this look typical for FA, or should I expect better?
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Not sure what happened, but for some reason my efi es 2000 is not being detected by autocal. It last worked fine back in dec 2019 when I last did a color autocal. The driver is 2.40.0.1315 August 21 2006 and it says the device is working fine. But when I click on the icon in autocal the device lights flash for a second and I get the error "cannot detect the sensor" Shouldn't the device lights turn on when I plug it into the USB port? Or when the device is selected in autocal? Tried searching online for a better driver, but windows says thats the best driver available. Am I doing something wrong? Tried restarting laptop, removing and adding back device, nothing..... please help.
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I have to click the little side button on my unit when it first flashes for it to work. Have you tried that yet?
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Yeah, tried that. did nothing...it would flash white for a second then red for probably half a second then nothing.
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Stupid me... I had the white window closed on the tile when I set the es2000 down on it to calibrate. now it works...
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This is a super helpful thread, thanks for all the hard work that went into it.
For the life of me I cannot get the JVC autocal software to connect to my spyderx. It connects to my ipro2 just fine. I can use the datacolor software in windows without any issues. I've made sure to kill all the datacolor software before starting the jvc software, but no luck. I even uninstalled the datacolor software, but that hasn't helped. It looks like it just uses a standard windows USB driver, and I haven't found any other drivers online.
Any ideas?
thanks
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This is a super helpful thread, thanks for all the hard work that went into it.
For the life of me I cannot get the JVC autocal software to connect to my spyderx. It connects to my ipro2 just fine. I can use the datacolor software in windows without any issues. I've made sure to kill all the datacolor software before starting the jvc software, but no luck. I even uninstalled the datacolor software, but that hasn't helped. It looks like it just uses a standard windows USB driver, and I haven't found any other drivers online.
Any ideas?
thanks
Which version of the JVC Autocal are you using? It needs the latest V12 to work with the Spyder X.
Apart from that, no idea...
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Yes, version 12. I’ve gotten it to work on my Mac with VMware fusion, but running it natively on windows (on a dell laptop) won’t work.
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Yes, version 12. I’ve gotten it to work on my Mac with VMware fusion, but running it natively on windows (on a dell laptop) won’t work.
Which OS version in VM Ware and on the Dell? If you look at the driver loaded for the X, is it the same on both OS?
V12 works fine with the X on my MBP 13 2018, so it does work natively.
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I'm using windows 10 on both. The driver just comes up as WinUSB device on both. I'm at a loss.
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I'm using windows 10 on both. The driver just comes up as WinUSB device on both. I'm at a loss.
That's it, with the spyder X there's no dedicated driver, it just uses the generic winusb one.
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I decided to pick up an ES2000 (i1Pro 2) for a proper color calibration in Autocal. If I read the notes correctly, I should be able to use the Windows 10 driver...correct? Is there a recommended mount for it?
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I decided to pick up an ES2000 (i1Pro 2) for a proper color calibration in Autocal. If I read the notes correctly, I should be able to use the Windows 10 driver...correct? Is there a recommended mount for it?
Hi Mikiela,
I have posted a few posts/pages back the driver I use. I can’t remember if it’s the Windows one or the one installed by Calman.
Spectracal (now Portrait Display) used to sell a good tripod mount for the i1pro2, that’s the one I have. Otherwise you can easily make your own using a phone holder (the kind with arms that clips on the side).
The i1pro2 might also come with a table mount that can be used as a tripod mount if I remember correctly (and if the ES2000 ships with the same accessories).
if you google it, you’ll find lots of options.
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I’m almost positive the 2009 driver comes with Calman as I have never seen where to get that driver and I have also never installed Calman.
The 2006 driver is the one from the X-Rite website and both work fine with autocal.
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I’m almost positive the 2009 driver comes with Calman as I have never seen where to get that driver and I have also never installed Calman.
The 2006 driver is the one from the X-Rite website and both work fine with autocal.
I have the 2009 driver too and do not have Calman, but I have installed the x-rite i1 Pro2 self diagnostics maybe that is where the driver came from
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I have the 2009 driver too and do not have Calman, but I have installed the x-rite i1 Pro2 self diagnostics maybe that is where the driver came from
I've installed the i1pro2 diag too, so it could well come from there. I honestly don't remember where it comes from, but if SirMaster installs the i1pro2 diags and finds he has the 2009 driver, we'll know for sure :)
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I've run some tests this week-end and I can confirm a few important things re the JVC Autocal. Nothing new here, but some recent claims made by trustworthy sources had caused some confusion so I wanted to double check.
All the tests below were done after a restore of the INIT file to put all the calibration tables back to their factory state. The PJ (RS2000) has nearly 1100 hours on, so there were significant before/after differences which made it easy to spot the effect of the Autocal.
All the measurements were taken with my Discus trained to the i1pro2 in Calman Ultimate.
All the gamma autocals were done with the Spyder X, all the color autocal were done with the i1pro2.
Here we go:
1) There is only one range for gamma Autocal per filter/lamp combination. I measured gamma with the iris open and with the iris at -7, I did a gamma autocal with the iris set to -7 (which is part of the -4 to -7 range), and it definitely corrected the 0 to -3 range as well. If you run different gamma calibration for the same lamp/filter setting at different iris ranges, you simply replace the last one. This is the case even if you select "Individual" for the gamma autocal. There is definitely only one gamma range per filter/lamp combo, at least on my rs2000 (like on all my previous JVCs supporting Autocal). However, and this might be what might have led some to the conclusion that there might be more than one gamma range, the gamma calibration is usually most accurate at the iris setting you run the gamma Autocal for. If I calibrate with the iris fully open, gamma with iris fully open will look better than gamma with the iris at -12. If I then run a gamma autocal at -12, it will look better at -12, but will probably make iris open look worse as it has replaced the previous calibration. This is why, if you can run a gamma calibration at your iris setting without getting zero readings for the lowest step in R, G or B, it's preferable to do so. Iris open is only recommended to max the brightness hence limit potential issues near black. I usual run the gamma Autocal at -12 for my Rec-709 calibration, and iris open for my DCI-P3 calibration, and I don't have any issue, even with the Spyder X facing the screen.
2) Gamma Autocal has no effect of peak brightness. Again, no surprise here. The only (and significant) effect on brightness comes from the color Autocal. So as far as I can see, the Spyder when used only for gamma autocal can't cause a brightness drop. There shouldn't be, from this respect, a difference between the 5 and the X, except that the X is two times faster. I therefore still highly recommend the X for gamma Autocal.
3) Color autocal can maximise peak brightness, but not always. With my SDR Rec-709 calibration (-12, no filter), I lost a bit of brightness with the color autocal (55nits to 53). With my SDR DCI-P3 calibration (filter, iris open), I gained 10% (102 nits to 112 nits). This is obviously comparing the pre-autocal brightness with 100% white set to D65 manually, and the post-autocal brightness with 100% white fine-tuned to D65.
4) Some calibrations need more corrections than others, even if the i1pro2 is used for color Autocal. After my DCI-P3 calibration, I only needed -2 on blue. After my rec-709 color calibration, I had to make larger adjutments, around -6/-7 for both red and green. Both color autocals were made with the i1pro2 facing the screen, so I have no idea why it was more accurate with the DCI-P3 than with the rec-709 one, but that's what happened. All the meters (Spyder X, Discus, i1pro2) were around 2 feet from the screen. Usually, I have them around 1 foot. It didn't seem to make any difference. I have a different meter profile for the Discus for each calibration, and I double checked with the i1pro2 direct, it was the same.
5) I recommend to do the color Autocal first. I got better results after running color (i1pro2) and gamma (Spyder X) a second time (I did measure in between to see what did what).
6) At least in my set-up, the Spyder X facing the screen has no issue reading the points near black for a 33 point gamma autocal, even with the iris set to -12 in my rec-709 calibration. So I don't see any superiority here for the Spyder 5 facing the PJ. The X is not only faster, it's also more sensitive near black, so at least here it seems to compensate enough.
7) You need to use full patterns when fine-tuning after a color Autocal. The pattern size has an impact on both the peak brightness and RGB balance. So as the JVC Autocal uses full patterns, you need to use full patterns when fine-tuning. Otherwise, you are most likely overcorrecting and losing brightness unnecessarily. Your peak brightness when measuring with full patterns will likely drop a bit compared to using 25% windows, but as you won't be overcorrecting the gains you will actually gain brightness. The other advantage of using full patterns with the JVCs is that it reduces the chances of reading some black if the meter FOV is wider than the pattern size, which can introduce errors. It also makes it less necessary to match the meters FOV, unless there is a strong uniformity issue on the projector, which isn't the case on mine.
I hope it helps. As always, YMMV as it might be different if a screen is larger / with less gain and the black floor is lower, but this is what I observed here.
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I hope it helps. As always, YMMV as it might be different if a screen is larger / with less gain and the black floor is lower, but this is what I observed here.
I noticed you did DCI-P3 and it was fairly accurate. Did you do a new 2020 calibration and if so, how was that, or what's the reasoning for doing P3? With the filter, doesn't it use the 2020 color profile and without, doesn't it use the HDR profile? Or is this because you aren't using Frame Adapt but rather a MadVR?
My white balance is all over the place after auto-cal with 2020. I need to adjust all gains/offsets in some fashion, some as much as 15 clicks.
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I noticed you did DCI-P3 and it was fairly accurate. Did you do a new 2020 calibration and if so, how was that, or what's the reasoning for doing P3? With the filter, doesn't it use the 2020 color profile and without, doesn't it use the HDR profile? Or is this because you aren't using Frame Adapt but rather a MadVR?
My white balance is all over the place after auto-cal with 2020. I need to adjust all gains/offsets in some fashion, some as much as 15 clicks.
I feel like something is going wrong if you have to adjust the white balance that much after an autocal.
I have autocal’d 8 projectors and the dE across a 20-point white balance measurement after autocal is never more than 3 dE off anywhere. And the gamma is never more than 0.05 off target.
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I noticed you did DCI-P3 and it was fairly accurate. Did you do a new 2020 calibration and if so, how was that, or what's the reasoning for doing P3? With the filter, doesn't it use the 2020 color profile and without, doesn't it use the HDR profile? Or is this because you aren't using Frame Adapt but rather a MadVR?
My white balance is all over the place after auto-cal with 2020. I need to adjust all gains/offsets in some fashion, some as much as 15 clicks.
I don't do 2020 as I don't need the JVC DTM anymore, now that I have an Envy Extreme. P3 is only an option if you use madVR/Envy/Radiance Pro. Tonemapping to P3 in that case makes more sense on a projector natively limited to P3, especially if you use a 3D LUT, otherwise you are more likely to end up with posterization.
As a result, I only calibrate my rec-709-nf user calibration (rec-709, no filter, iris -12, low lamp, 6500K, gamma 2.4) and DCI-P3-F user calibration (DCI-P3, filter, iris open, low lamp, 6500K, gamma 2.2).
Consumer sources don't support P3, only rec-709 or BT2020.
If you need more than a few clicks on two gains to set 100% white to D65 after a color calibration with the i1pro2 (it doesn't matter which calibration, 709, P3 or BT2020), something is wrong. -6/-7 for R+G gains on my rec-709 calibration is a lot, and I can't really explain it. -2 on B for my DCI-P3 calibration is more typical of what I would expect. Of course, you shouldn't be using a Spyder for color autocal, because there is no way to know its accuracy (unless you've corrected it with a reference spectro using the spreadsheet method). If you do use a Spyder for color, you might have to do a lot of adjustment post calibration, hence lose a lot of brightness in the process. Much better to restore the INIT file and set the white point manually with a better meter.
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Thanks guys, not sure what it is either. I do use the i1 Pro2 for color and Spyder X for Gamma only then ChromaPure for checking the results.
I don't know, I tried a few times and it was all over the board. Part of it is that for HDR/2020 it is setting the color temp to 6200K for 100% and as low as 6000K for 50% so I need to manually drop red and green gain to allow blue to catch up.
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Thanks guys, not sure what it is either. I do use the i1 Pro2 for color and Spyder X for Gamma only then ChromaPure for checking the results.
I don't know, I tried a few times and it was all over the board. Part of it is that for HDR/2020 it is setting the color temp to 6200K for 100% and as low as 6000K for 50% so I need to manually drop red and green gain to allow blue to catch up.
Don't overcorrect when you get such poor color autocal results. This isn't normal. You need to restore the INIT file and do a manual white point calibration until you figure out why you're getting such poor results with your i1pro2 in your HDR/2020 calibration. You are most likely losing a lot of brightness with this flawed color autocal, for no benefit.
Make sure that the i1pro2 is properly placed (facing the screen, 1-2 feet away from it, looking up towards the center of the screen so as not to read its own shadow or any black around the pattern if using windows). Make sure that you use full screen patterns (that's what the Autocal uses and if you use any other pattern size you are overcorrecting, hence losing brightness, I'll add a point 7 in my previous post to clarify this).
My DCI-P3 calibration uses the exact same settings as my HDR10/BT2020 calibration (filter, low lamp, iris open), so I don't need to calibrate it separately, it would simply replace my DCI-P3 calibration. The only difference is that I use the BT2020 color profile instead of the DCI-P3-F color profile, but I don't see how this could make a difference with 6500K gains settings. I'll measure my HDR10/BT2020 calibration when I find the time and I'll let you know if it's any different than my DCI-P3, but I doubt it, unless there is a bug in the software.
I can't comment on Chromapure, I owned it a few years ago but it was very poorly maintained so I got rid of it and never looked back.
I suggest you try HCFR or DisplayCAL to make sure that your readings with the i1pro2 are correct.
Also in the log after the color autocal (you can run a log only just to check this), does the log report 6500K as per the i1pro2, or anything else? Please reset your color temp settings before running the autocal to make sure that the log reports what the Autocal sees. If the log reports something far from 6500K as per the i1pro2, there is something wrong in the i1pro2 or its positioning.
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You need to restore the INIT file and do a manual white point calibration until you figure out why you're getting such poor results with your i1pro2 in your HDR/2020 calibration.
Manni, I am not sure what you mean here by a manual white point calibration in autocal.
Can you explain a bit more ?
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Manni, I am not sure what you mean here by a manual white point calibration in autocal.
Can you explain a bit more ?
Not in Autocal, your color autocal is clearly not working.
So you need to restore the INIT file to reset the wrong autocal calibration and do a manual white point with chromapure instead. You should reclaim a significant amount of brightness that way.
Once you've sorted out why your color autocal isn't working (remember that you can run measurements with Chromapure after a color autocal attempt but before saving it to the PJ), you can use it.
In the meantime, only use gamma only with the Spyder, at least in your HDR/BT2020 calibration, if the i1pro2 works as expected in the others (not sure why that would be the case if you don't move it between calibration, which you shouldn't have to do).
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The white point question from me : jj-34 not TCramer , but I still do not know how to do this manual white point calibration, OK I got it it's not in autocal, so is it with another calibration program like HCFR , and do I have to play with the projector's manual settings to obtain this 6500 white point ?
Doesn't that defeat the following autocal where we are supposed to reset all the manual settings ?
I am very confused now .... :-X
A few nights before I finally had a chance to do a few autocal runs and here is what I got ( still only trying to get hands on experience ! )
A full Natural SDR run with my I1d3 : BT 709, low lamp no filter
(https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2020/04/18//O8PzJb-2020-04-16-23-09-11-Full-Natural-SDR-with-i1D3.jpg)
The same in User1 but with the i1Pro2 color only :
(https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2020/04/18//P8PzJb-2020-04-16-23-39-10-User1-SDR-with-i1pro2.jpg)
This one in HDR10 with the i1D3 again but color only and BT2020 and still low lamp :
(https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2020/04/18//O8PzJb-2020-04-16-23-15-03-Full-HDR10-HDR-with-i1D3.jpg)
And last the same in User2 with i1Pro2 : Color only, BT2020 filter and low lamp :
(https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2020/04/18//P8PzJb-2020-04-16-23-56-09-Color-User2-BT2020-with-i1pro2.jpg)
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If you don't use a third-party software (HCFR, Calman, DisplayCAL, Ligthtspace, Chromapure) with a known good meter to fine-tune an autocal, and if the software doesn't force you to do more than a few clicks to correct the white point, what I said about a manual white point calibration doesn't apply to you. It also only apply to the i1pro2, given that one shouldn't be doing a color autocal with an uncorrected Spyder.
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If you don't use a third-party software (HCFR, Calman, DisplayCAL, Ligthtspace, Chromapure) with a known good meter to fine-tune an autocal, and if the software doesn't force you to do more than a few clicks to correct the white point, what I said about a manual white point calibration doesn't apply to you. It also only apply to the i1pro2, given that one shouldn't be doing a color autocal with an uncorrected Spyder.
Maybe our posts crossed each other, but have you seen my post above with the autocal logs both with an i1D3 full gamma and color plus subsequent color only with my i1Pro2 ?
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Don't overcorrect when you get such poor color autocal results. This isn't normal. You need to restore the INIT file and do a manual white point calibration until you figure out why you're getting such poor results with your i1pro2 in your HDR/2020 calibration. You are most likely losing a lot of brightness with this flawed color autocal, for no benefit.
Make sure that the i1pro2 is properly placed (facing the screen, 1-2 feet away from it, looking up towards the center of the screen so as not to read its own shadow or any black around the pattern if using windows). Make sure that you use full screen patterns (that's what the Autocal uses and if you use any other pattern size you are overcorrecting, hence losing brightness, I'll add a point 7 in my previous post to clarify this).
My DCI-P3 calibration uses the exact same settings as my HDR10/BT2020 calibration (filter, low lamp, iris open), so I don't need to calibrate it separately, it would simply replace my DCI-P3 calibration. The only difference is that I use the BT2020 color profile instead of the DCI-P3-F color profile, but I don't see how this could make a difference with 6500K gains settings. I'll measure my HDR10/BT2020 calibration when I find the time and I'll let you know if it's any different than my DCI-P3, but I doubt it, unless there is a bug in the software.
I can't comment on Chromapure, I owned it a few years ago but it was very poorly maintained so I got rid of it and never looked back.
I suggest you try HCFR or DisplayCAL to make sure that your readings with the i1pro2 are correct.
Also in the log after the color autocal (you can run a log only just to check this), does the log report 6500K as per the i1pro2, or anything else? Please reset your color temp settings before running the autocal to make sure that the log reports what the Autocal sees. If the log reports something far from 6500K as per the i1pro2, there is something wrong in the i1pro2 or its positioning.
Appreciate the response - I'll restore the init file one more time and give it another shot at some point this week when I get a chance. I'll grab a few shots of the before/after autocal and report back.
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Maybe our posts crossed each other, but have you seen my post above with the autocal logs both with an i1D3 full gamma and color plus subsequent color only with my i1Pro2 ?
No, I saw your post but I don’t see your point, or how it’s connected to the discussion, and as you’re only posting screenshots I can’t read your mind :)
When doing a color only Autocal, only RGBW are taken. All other measurements are informative only and irrelevant to the calibration results. The i1pro2 greyscale measurements are all over the place during the log, which is often the case, but the white measurements seem to be very close between the i1d3 and the i1pro2.
Did I miss something?
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No, I saw your post but I don’t see your point, or how it’s connected to the discussion, and as you’re only posting screenshots I can’t read your mind :)
When doing a color only Autocal, only RGBW are taken. All other measurements are informative only and irrelevant to the calibration results. The i1pro2 greyscale measurements are all over the place during the log, which is often the case, but the white measurements seem to be very close between the i1d3 and the i1pro2.
Did I miss something?
Well I am relieved that you can't read my mind, and you're probably not missing anything 8)
What bothered me was how to manually adjust the white balance on the projector, I know how to do it on my monitor using its built in "hardware" menu measured with DisplayCal and the sensor (i1d3 or i1pro2), but that's it.
About the logs, yes I know that all the gamma charts are the ones done with the i1d3, I only added them to each summary to have a global view, but I am not knowledgeable enough to understand all those figures, are they good enough or can be improved ?
In the i1pro2 color chart, the D65 points seem to be scattered a lot contrary to the same with the i1d3 (hdr too), is that something to be concerned ?
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Well I am relieved that you can't read my mind, and you're probably not missing anything 8)
What bothered me was how to manually adjust the white balance on the projector, I know how to do it on my monitor using its built in "hardware" menu measured with DisplayCal and the sensor (i1d3 or i1pro2), but that's it.
About the logs, yes I know that all the gamma charts are the ones done with the i1d3, I only added them to each summary to have a global view, but I am not knowledgeable enough to understand all those figures, are they good enough or can be improved ?
In the i1pro2 color chart, the D65 points seem to be scattered a lot contrary to the same with the i1d3 (hdr too), is that something to be concerned ?
To set 100% white to D65, simply adjust the gains in your color temp preset. Look at the JVC manual if these instructions are unclear. But you don’t really need to do anything because there is no way to know if the i1pro2 is more accurate than the i1d3. Just do color and gamma with your i1d3 and forget about the i1pro2. You don’t need it.
As I said in my reply, the i1pro2 measurements below white are often all over the place. This is irrelevant as the i1pro2 should only be used for color, hence should only ever measure RGBW.
Your results seem good, I would leave it there and enjoy my projector. You have no idea how lucky you are to not be knowledgeable enough to understand all these numbers :)
Watch more films, and do a log only every 200 hours with your i1d3 to see if anything needs to be corrected.
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Manni, guess what I only realized now that what you mentioned as grey scale are in fact all those grey points within or nearby the red D65 circle ..... Tells you what a lucky man I am ... ::)
Now next mission ( if I accept it, and I will) is to use HCFR and get my hands on, but for this I need another evening night with nothing on TV worth watching, the misses gone reading in her bedroom and the HC area for me alone .... Ha Ha !
Should not be too long as with the confinment, the TV programs are getting worse and worse.
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If you need more than a few clicks on two gains to set 100% white to D65 after a color calibration with the i1pro2 (it doesn't matter which calibration, 709, P3 or BT2020), something is wrong. -6/-7 for R+G gains on my rec-709 calibration is a lot, and I can't really explain it. -2 on B for my DCI-P3 calibration is more typical of what I would expect.
I observed that without filter the 709 coverage is not perfect and I'm afraid that the autocal procedure might overcorrect green and red. From the results I get, I see that green is not perfectly achieved and same for the red (much less amount of inaccuracy though). Since the autocal software is just measuring the vertex (i.e. saturation 100%) this can potentially lead to overcorrection beyond projector possibilities. Actually you said that with DCI-P3 with filter you didn't have this problem... The fact that without filter 709 coverage is not perfect made me use color filter even for 709. The color accuracy is visibly better and in addition I have a flawless transition between SDR and HDR :)
I suggest to try to activate the filter and check the results.
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I observed that without filter the 709 coverage is not perfect and I'm afraid that the autocal procedure might overcorrect green and red. From the results I get, I see that green is not perfectly achieved and same for the red (much less amount of inaccuracy though). Since the autocal software is just measuring the vertex (i.e. saturation 100%) this can potentially lead to overcorrection beyond projector possibilities. Actually you said that with DCI-P3 with filter you didn't have this problem... The fact that without filter 709 coverage is not perfect made me use color filter even for 709. The color accuracy is visibly better and in addition I have a flawless transition between SDR and HDR :)
I suggest to try to activate the filter and check the results.
You are confusing undersaturation of gamut primaries and RGB balance at 100% white. Not related to my post. Your rec-709 gamut is undersaturated for green (and/or red), it's a common issue with some JVCs. This can't be corrected and has nothing to do with the JVC Autocal. Using the filter with rec-709 can help, but again it has nothing to do do with what I was talking about.
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I've added a note in the first step of my recent report here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg16604#msg16604) to explain why some might have come to the conclusion that there is more than one gamma range for the same filter/lamp mode combination.
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Presumably you meant to say Spyder X? It can be very confusing to the reader.:)
"6) At least in my set-up, the Spyder 5 facing the screen has no issue reading the points near black for a 33 point gamma autocal,"
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Presumably you meant to say Spyder X? It can be very confusing to the reader.:)
"6) At least in my set-up, the Spyder 5 facing the screen has no issue reading the points near black for a 33 point gamma autocal,"
Yes thanks, I’ll correct the typo. It was late...
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Hi Manni,
Thanks for putting this information together...much appreciated!
Given that you are measuring from about 2 feet out, what approximate angle is the meter at? I tried searching for spot size per distance for both the SpyderX and i1Pro but couldn't find any specs.
Mike
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Hi Manni,
Thanks for putting this information together...much appreciated!
Given that you are measuring from about 2 feet out, what approximate angle is the meter at? I tried searching for spot size per distance for both the SpyderX and i1Pro but couldn't find any specs.
Mike
Don’t worry about this. Use full size patterns, get the meter to read the center of the scren (using 1% window patterns to position maximizing brightness) and you don’t need to match FOV.
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You are confusing undersaturation of gamut primaries and RGB balance at 100% white. Not related to my post. Your rec-709 gamut is undersaturated for green (and/or red), it's a common issue with some JVCs. This can't be corrected and has nothing to do with the JVC Autocal. Using the filter with rec-709 can help, but again it has nothing to do do with what I was talking about.
Maybe I'm confusing, you are definitely more expert than me, but what if the Autocal tries to compensate green and red not perfectly saturated, pushing pointlessly towards R and G direction? Are you 100% sure that white can't be impacted by this? After all saturation is the intensity of a hue: increasing intensity can warp the gamut a little like (too-short-blanket-problem). It is not the first time that trying to push beyond limits is producing worse results. Why don't you experience the same phenomenon when you calibrate DCI space with filter on?
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I've added a note in the first step of my recent report here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg16604#msg16604) to explain why some might have come to the conclusion that there is more than one gamma range for the same filter/lamp mode combination.
Very helpful confirmation, thanks!
Since I've a scope screen and I'm using 5 lens memory positions for the several aspect ratios, with different iris aperture, I usually calibrate gamma at intermediate position between minimum and maximum aperture I'm using (-5 in my case).This can be an additional suggestion for people that is not using just one aperture, like me.
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Reporting back on my issues from a few days back. I reset the init file and started from scratch. I made sure to place all meters about 18" from the screen keeping a very consistent upward angle. Long story short, I think it's looking much better but still leaves me with a few questions. I've only done low lamp so far. This will be a 120" wide 16:9 Seymour XD screen, so I'm pushing it for brightness on low lamp. I'll get to high with the filter later - today I did HDR with no filter.
I've attached some screenshots showing the results.
- SDR autocal white balance and color before/after
- SDR white balance before/after
- HDR autocal white balance and color before/after (results in FA mode)
- HDR white balance before/after
- HDR saturations after autocal
- Brightness change after autocal
With these results, I guess here are my questions.
- SDR - red and green are slightly oversaturated after auto-cal. Am I better to leave be, or try to manually correct?
- SDR - white balance is warm throughout the range. Should I try to correct 100% by dropping red Gain and then adjust the rest with the Gamma tool? Or is that more likely to mess it up and lose more brightness?
- HDR - White balance is leaps better than before. Again, should I just let it be or try to tweak the gain/offset to get closer to D65 or just let it be?
- HDR - autocal did improve the saturations significantly but green still tracks way off line. Is that normal for the JVCs? As I understand, this cannot be correct for Frame Adapt.
- Are the brightness drops posted about as expected?
Thanks for the help thus far all.
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You seem to be using the BT.2020 targets for reference, which you will not achieve. You should use the P3 targets instead, although you have to use "P3 in BT.2020".
As for white balance, I would just use the RGB gain controls to align 80%, and run another sweep to see if everything is close. Note that the RGB gains affect all input levels proportionately; e.g., if R is higher than G by 5% across the board, that can be corrected with the R gain control and it’s not necessary to use the 12-pt gamma controls.
If you plan to use the gamma tool then use 100% to align RGB; however, I don't think it's worthwhile.
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As Dominic said, you need to read P3 within BT2020 when checking saturations on a BT2020 calibration, as you won't reach more than 70-75% of BT2020 with these, and that's with the filter. That's normal and not a problem as most of the content doesn't go beyond P3, it just uses BT2020 as a container.
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I ran Autocal following most of the recomendations given earlier. I set up the i1Pro at about 2 feet using the 1% window as a guide. The shadow of the meter was approximately 6" below the bottom of the window and mostly in line with the main viewing position. I forgot to reinstall the original init file. In any case, it was not the "original" init file as the projector was precalibrated before I received it and that file is no longer available. I ran the color only calibration followed by the gamma cal with the SpyderX. I then used LightSpace with my CR-100 which had been previously profiled with a borrowed CR-250. I had to set the green to -1 to hit the white point. I did an SDR calibration and posted the results in my build thread (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-dedicated-theater-design-construction/1946625-mikela-s-sba-trinnov-theater-build-27.html#post59554392).
Although my test material looked great, I did find a bit of red push in the first few bars coming out of black when looking at the Lumagen test patterns. This was observed even before the LUTs were installed...so not a result of the LS cal.
The 1D LUT which shows a red dip near black. My LS calibration did not change the red push.
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You need to watch the autocal screen as it reads the gamma patches and make sure none of them read 0 (which is likely what caused the red push). Open the iris fully and if necessary, zoom in the lens to reduce the image size, or switch to Normal (20-pt) if you were using Quality (33-pt).
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You need to watch the autocal screen as it reads the gamma patches and make sure none of them read 0 (which is likely what caused the red push). Open the iris fully and if necessary, zoom in the lens to reduce the image size, or switch to Normal (20-pt) if you were using Quality (33-pt).
I am 18'6" back from a 144" diagonal 2.40 screen and used the 33pt with iris open. I will try zooming as you suggest.
Thanks!
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The screen is actually quite big and the distance even more. It would be interesting to compare your results with an autocal made using Spyder 5 if you had it. Someone believes that Spyder X can be inaccurate at low lights because facing the screen... Doesn't mean necessarily that it returns 0.
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The screen is actually quite big and the distance even more. It would be interesting to compare your results with an autocal made using Spyder 5 if you had it. Someone believes that Spyder X can be inaccurate at low lights because facing the screen... Doesn't mean necessarily that it returns 0.
I also had the SpyderX at 2'. I am going to move it back to 1' and try it again. If that doesn't work, I will zoom it in as suggested by dcchan2.
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When facing the screen the distance does not make a difference, unlike when facing the projector.
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When facing the screen the distance does not make a difference, unlike when facing the projector.
That may be the case, but JVC recommends placing the Spyder X at 30cm (12" or 1ft) from the screen.
I've just done an Autocal for my SDR BT2020 Gamma 2.4 calibration in high lamp with all the meters at 1ft and I got the best results ever, both for gamma (Spyder X) and color (i1pro2).
At the distance though, it's not always easy to position the meters so that they don't read their shadow. It's easier to pull back a bit. Usually I get good results with the meters at 1-1.5 foot.
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That may be the case, but JVC recommends placing the Spyder X at 30cm (12" or 1ft) from the screen.
I've just done an Autocal for my SDR BT2020 Gamma 2.4 calibration in high lamp with all the meters at 1ft and I got the best results ever, both for gamma (Spyder X) and color (i1pro2).
At the distance though, it's not always easy to position the meters so that they don't read their shadow. It's easier to pull back a bit. Usually I get good results with the meters at 1-1.5 foot.
But how do you know they are the best results?
I assume that you are verifying the calibration with the meter from the same 1ft position and angle.
In that case all your are verifying of course is does the meter read a consistent value from what it read during calibration. It doesn't help tell you how the calibration looks from your seating position.
For example my screen is 1.1 gain, and I can see there is a slight color shift when viewing the screen at an angle.
If I put my meter 1-2ft away from the screen, then it has to view the screen from the bottom at a really sharp angle looking up in order not to read the shadow, and this affects the accuracy of the color reading as compared to viewing my screen from my seats which are much more of a straight on angle to my screen.
Because of this I put my i1 Pro 2 about 6-7ft back so that it is perfectly in line with my eye from my seating position to the center of my screen. Put another way, From my seat, I can "look through" my meter and see the middle of my screen. At this distance I get no shadow whatsoever anywhere on my screen.
And moving it back like this has no affect on the meter's luminance reading or the position it shows in JVC's autocal window.
Later when I verify my calibration with my i1d3 trained to the i1 Pro 2 with both the training and the verification with the i1D3 from this same 6-7ft position, I get under 1.5dE for all measurements, so I know that the calibration is just as good and that it looks this good from my actual viewing angle from my seating.
If I autocal with my meter 1-2ft away looking upward at the screen and then verify with the meter from my actual viewing angle, the results are not nearly as good, 3-4dE in some cases at worst.
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But how do you know they are the best results?
I assume that you are verifying the calibration with the meter from the same 1ft position and angle.
In that case all your are verifying of course is does the meter read a consistent value from what it read during calibration. It doesn't help tell you how the calibration looks from your seating position.
For example my screen is 1.1 gain, and I can see there is a slight color shift when viewing the screen at an angle.
If I put my meter 1-2ft away from the screen, then it has to view the screen from the bottom at a really sharp angle looking up in order not to read the shadow, and this affects the accuracy of the color reading as compared to viewing my screen from my seats which are much more of a straight on angle to my screen.
Because of this I put my i1 Pro 2 about 6-7ft back so that it is perfectly in line with my eye from my seating position to the center of my screen. Put another way, From my seat, I can "look through" my meter and see the middle of my screen. At this distance I get no shadow whatsoever anywhere on my screen.
And moving it back like this has no affect on the meter's luminance reading or the position it shows in JVC's autocal window.
Later when I verify my calibration with my i1d3 trained to the i1 Pro 2 with both the training and the verification with the i1D3 from this same 6-7ft position, I get under 1.5dE for all measurements, so I know that the calibration is just as good and that it looks this good from my actual viewing angle from my seating.
If I autocal with my meter 1-2ft away looking upward at the screen and then verify with the meter from my actual viewing angle, the results are not nearly as good, 3-4dE in some cases at worst.
As I said, it can be more difficult in some situations to get the meters that close to the screen. I wasn’t saying that closer is always better, I was only saying that JVC recommends 30cm for the Spyder X, and that my gamma calibration at that distance was the best results I got. Therefore distance does matter, at least here.
At 1-2 ft, I don’t have to set the meters at a sharp angle in order for them not to read their shadows, but I did say that it could not be the case for everyone. Clearly, if that’s the case for you, then you can’t be that close.
By best, I simply mean the closest to reference. My results for gamma are simply worse if I put the Spyder X further back. By this, I mean that my average dE is higher, and that there are spikes that are not present when it is positioned closer to the screen.
It depends on screen size as well. At 6-7ft though from my Carada BW 88” diag 16x9, I would be reading a lot of black around the patterns as the Discus doesn’t have a very narrow FOV.
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Yeah I am mainly just talking about the color autocal with i1 Pro 2 as the i1 Pro 2 has a very narrow FOV.
I wouldn't be concerned about viewing angle for a gamma autocal as relative gamma measurements shouldn't be affected much by the viewing angle. Everything will either read a little darker or brighter, but so long as it's every pattern in the scale, the gamma values will come out the same.
I am still using the Spyder5, so I'm doing it off lens, but it's still nice to see that verification with my i1D3 from the screen, trained to my i1 Pro 2 measured from 6-7ft back is within 2.18 - 2.22 across the scale when the calibration was done from the lens and with a completely different meter.
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If I put my meter 1-2ft away from the screen, then it has to view the screen from the bottom at a really sharp angle looking up in order not to read the shadow, and this affects the accuracy of the color reading as compared to viewing my screen from my seats which are much more of a straight on angle to my screen.
That depending on the mounting position of the projector. Mine is mounted at close to the height of the screen frame top, and I have no problems positioning the meter 1-2 ft from the screen without reading its own shadow. The shadow just needs to be 3” or more below the screen centre in order not to be read by the meter.
In any case, the point I was trying to make is that the meter position is unlikely to be the cause of the red push.
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I zoomed in with the SpyderX and that eliminated the red push. I assume that you do not zoom in using the i1Pro. Is that correct?
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I zoomed in with the SpyderX and that eliminated the red push. I assume that you do not zoom in using the i1Pro. Is that correct?
This seems to confirm that the meter sensitivity was indeed the cause of the red push. What were the peak white luminance levels, zoomed and unzoomed?
There shouldn’t be any need to change the zoom for colour Autocal.
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This seems to confirm that the meter sensitivity was indeed the cause of the red push. What were the peak white luminance levels, zoomed and unzoomed?
There shouldn’t be any need to change the zoom for colour Autocal.
I did not record the peak white luminance. I will do that next time.
Thank you for your assistance.
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I zoomed in with the SpyderX and that eliminated the red push. I assume that you do not zoom in using the i1Pro. Is that correct?
Didn’t you zoom out to make the image smaller and brighter? Zooming in makes the image bigger and less bright instead.
Anyway, you are confirming my suspects about inaccuracy of low lights readings and this is enforcing my conviction that it is preferable to use the spyder 5 to get a more accurate gamma. in addition, I would say that I’m not even 100% sure that measuring levels with zoom and iris positioned so differently from the normal usage is not impacting the gamma calibration.
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Didn’t you zoom out to make the image smaller and brighter? Zooming in makes the image bigger and less bright instead.
Anyway, you are confirming my suspects about inaccuracy of low lights readings and this is enforcing my conviction that it is preferable to use the spyder 5 to get a more accurate gamma. in addition, I would say that I’m not even 100% sure that measuring levels with zoom and iris positioned so differently from the normal usage is not impacting the gamma calibration.
I zoomed to make the image smaller and brighter...call it what you like. I see no advantage from my perspective for a Spyder 5 facing the lens. It is by far one of the most accurate Autocals for me. This last go around I positioned the meter so the shadow just hit the bottom of a 1% window. That resulted in a distance of 1.5'. I will definitely use zoom for gamma in the future. No downside as far as I can tell.
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Again, you are measuring something different from the image you normally project.
Spyder 5 can clearly improve the things for sure, because facing the lens you don't have issues with low lights for sure. And you don't have to position the lens and the iris differently from your normal settings. As reported in previous posts, iris aperture can impact gamma and we have to set it as close as possible to the level used during autocal.
if you had both (like me), which one would you use?
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Again, you are measuring something different from the image you normally project.
Spyder 5 can clearly improve the things for sure, because facing the lens you don't have issues with low lights for sure. And you don't have to position the lens and the iris differently from your normal settings. As reported in previous posts, iris aperture can impact gamma and we have to set it as close as possible to the level used during autocal.
if you had both (like me), which one would you use?
I think either meter works. Having said that, I sold my Spyder 5. I validated my results without zooming using log only with the i1Pro and it showed all the measurement points directly on top of the D65 point with the last low level measurement slightly protruding off to one side. I then ran an initial white point using LightSpace without doing anything else:
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Hi folks, any help would be appreciated, as this stuff is waaaaay above my head...I’m not looking to be an expert, but would just like to improve my image with Autocal, if improvement is needed...I’d be happy with a 90 percent accurate calibration (I think)...
I corrected my gamma droop for 4K hdr with my Spyder X a couple weeks ago...I just received my EFI ES 2000 for my color calibration...
I ran several color runs on my NX7 last night, positioning the meter so as not to read its shadow...I will play with positioning again, if that’s the issue...I didn’t do any SAVE as I want to be sure I’m doing this correctly...
Here is what my color run produced...I’ve read many pages on this forum and it has been very helpful to me...one thing I need to change for my 4K hdr color calibration is I was using gamma 2.2 so “I think” I need to change that to hdrpq gamma but I’m unsure if that will help...here is my result with gamma 2.2...any suggestions to get the dots more clustered...? thanks
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These are fine results, a little bit warm (6300K instead of 6500K) but fine. The i1pro2 isn't accurate in low light, so as the readings go darker, the dots look more scattered. This doesn't matter as only the 100% readings are used for the i1pro2. So only look at the 100% white results on a log after a color autocal with the i1pro2, that's really the only one that counts re the dots. Completely discard the darkest dots readings.
If you do a log only with your Spyder X, you should see all the dots in the same place, though most likely NOT at D65, given that the Spyder isn't accurate for color. What's important is that they are all grouped when you look at a log made by the Spyder.
You really need an external software and a colorimeter trained to a spectro to get the full picture. Or to use the unofficially supported i1d3, as it's reasonably accurate both for gamma and color. But you can relax and enjoy your PJ, you results look fine.
All the gamma curves are calibrated at the same time, even if you use the individual setting, for the same filter/lamp mode combination. So simply select gamma 2.2 whenever you do a gamma autocal, that way you'll be able to see easily if it went well (flat / straight line), then select the gamma you actually use. The gamma curve you select will not have an impact on the D65 readings (assuming you have done a gamma calibration as well).
Results can be slightly better if you use your actual gamma during calibration, but then it's harder to read the log if you don't use a third party software to check your results, as the log always shows the reference line as 2.2 and not as the target you have chosen during calibration.
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Thanks, would it be necessary to now re adjust black level with my R. Masciola patterns to slightly resolve 17/68?
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Thanks, would it be necessary to now re adjust black level with my R. Masciola patterns to slightly resolve 17/68?
It's always a good idea to check for this after any calibration, but a color autocal will never change this. Only a gamma autocal might.
Never try to show 17/68 at all cost if it means raising your black floor.
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Yeah, IMO it's best to find the brightness value that raises the whole black screen, then go back down by 1.
If you want more shadow detail at that point, fix it with a custom gamma curve or raise the dark gamma control by a click which will raise near-black without raising black.
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Hi folks, I’m trying to understand these files that were saved when I did my gamma autocal in early April...
Ok, I see the single Init file that I saved in multiple locations, but the other 2 files would be what? The one with the later date is perhaps the gamma calibration I settled on the next day but I’m not sure what the other one is...thanks folks
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Hi folks...
If I do a color Autocal for HDR10 and then save and then switch to frame adapt, does the color Autocal apply to frame adapt? I’m assuming it will as I can’t use Autocal at all in frame adapt mode...
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A colleague of mine who works for a division of X-Rite was able to get me a i1 Pro 2 and I was able to do a gamma calibration with a Spyder 5 as well as a color calibration with the i1 Pro 2 last night. Unfortunately, I ran into an issue with the software. No matter what I tried, I could NOT get the i1 "into the box" in the software no matter where I placed it. I was able to get it close if the meter was about 18 inches from the screen (and not in the shadow, of course). I threw caution to the wind and went ahead with the calibration and everything turned out excellent (pretty much nailed D65 at both 100% and 50%) and the saturation points ended up where I expected them to be after using Calman in previous calibrations with a C5 meter.
My question is, should I be concerned that the meter wasn't "in the box?" Thinking that the meter could have been faulty, I broke out my old i1 Pro and had the exact same result...I couldn't get the meter into the box no matter what I tried. Any tips?
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One other question. In Calman, would I want to profile the iOne Pro 2 to the C5 or the other way around?
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Hi Dave,
You should read the basic section... :)
No one manages (or tries) to get the i1pro2 in the box, and it doesn’t matter.
I set it at 1-2 feet with the other meters, and I ignore the box.
You want to profile the C5 to the i1pro2, but I ‘d probably profile the Spyder to it, or ar the very least try both. Unless that’s what you meant?
Anyway, i1pro2 always reference, spyder or C5 field/profiled meter.
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Hi Dave,
You should read the basic section... :)
No one manages (or tries) to get the i1pro2 in the box, and it doesn’t matter.
I set it at 1-2 feet with the other meters, and I ignore the box.
You want to profile the C5 to the i1pro2, but I ‘d probably profile the Spyder to it, or ar the very least try both. Unless that’s what you meant?
Anyway, i1pro2 always reference, spyder or C5 field/profiled meter.
Manni, I skimmed the Basic section but was in a rush :) I know the software since I've owned JVCs exclusively for the past 13 years or so, but this is the first time I've used the i1.
In regard to profiling, can you explain the benefit? Is it to offset the errors of the "lesser" meter for more accuracy for color and gain the speed and accuracy for the lower light readings? I've never profiled a meter before, so it's new to me.
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Manni, I skimmed the Basic section but was in a rush :) I know the software since I've owned JVCs exclusively for the past 13 years or so, but this is the first time I've used the i1.
In regard to profiling, can you explain the benefit? Is it to offset the errors of the "lesser" meter for more accuracy for color and gain the speed and accuracy for the lower light readings? I've never profiled a meter before, so it's new to me.
The benefit of profiling is to get the best from both meters. The differences are explained in more details in the "Which meter to choose?" section.
The i1pro2 is more accurate from a color point of view, but it's very bad in low light (pretty much unreliable below 10 nits, so not only near black for gamma but also blue that can be quite dim even at 100%) and it's quite slow.
The Spyder 5 is more sentive in low light, faster, but it's much less accurate for color.
So you train the Spyder on the i1pro2 to "teach" it good colors, then you use the profiled Spyder which has the accuracy of the i1pro2 but keeps the added speed and better sensitivity in low lights.
Here is a video explaining the process in Calman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4QstPjIuu8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4QstPjIuu8)
There is no benefit to using a multiple pass with projectors as both meters can read the same spot at the centre of the screen, so just use the single pass, it's much faster.
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Manni, sorry to be a pain. So use the Spyder 5 instead of the Calman C5?
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Manni, sorry to be a pain. So use the Spyder 5 instead of the Calman C5?
It's been a long time since I last used my Chroma 5, but my memory of it was that it was very slow and not that great in low light. So I would try with both and see which one gets me the best results.
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Hi folks, ok, now getting color temps closer to 6400...Dominic had mentioned perhaps there was an underlying problem with gamma, so I reran my gamma with my SpyderX about 12 inches from screen...it had been further back before...Had excellent results on the Autocal charts...I then ran color Autocal at iris 0 and again at iris -4 and saved both...here are the color results below...I “think” these are ok, but welcome any input as to what could easily be improved...1st pic is iris 0, 2nd pic iris -4
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I did not say that. Please don’t misquote me.
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Man o man, I am having no luck with people today...I apologize as I “thought” that is what you mentioned...clearly I was WRONG AGAIN!
My challenge is I don’t know what I am talking about but am trying to learn much like many other people on the forums...and so if I think I understand what helpful people are telling me, I try to share that information for the benefit of others...my apologies...
Are you able to share what you meant and perhaps why I am seeing a difference after running a new gamma?
Apologies once again
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I think that it is worth remembering that all those measures are NOT absolute values as probably not taken with a very high dollar laboratory calibrated sensor but are relative to the sensor accuracy that is used thus must be read with that in mind.
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I prefer to calibrate gamma first and then color. My thought is that whatever collateral effect (if any) a color inaccurate Spyder may introduce, using the most accurate meter at the end would fix it.
It is also the sequence that the software follows when the user select a gamma+color calibration with the same meter.
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I seem to be getting a bit of red push...ran gamma with Spyder x and color with i1pro2. colour temp 100 percent white calibrated in around 6400...don’t mind importing my Init file to reset but thought I would ask for any suggestions...Red gain/offset or color slider tweak or...? Any suggestions would be appreciated...I’ve re run Autocal a couple times and keep getting red push or what seems to be red push to my eyes...thanks
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I seem to be getting a bit of red push...ran gamma with Spyder x and color with i1pro2. colour temp 100 percent white calibrated in around 6400...don’t mind importing my Init file to reset but thought I would ask for any suggestions...Red gain/offset or color slider tweak or...? Any suggestions would be appreciated...I’ve re run Autocal a couple times and keep getting red push or what seems to be red push to my eyes...thanks
Have you checked with an different software if you really have a red push? You can't rely 100% on your eyes :)
You can also just log with JVC software and check.
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Thanks, just learning this stuff so have not ventured into any other software...full time job learning 2 different meters and Autocal
What would I look for in the Autocal log?
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The log would just show you what you saw after the previous calibration.
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Thanks Dom...I restored the Init file...now I could run color log and look at red numbers and then run color non log and compare log numbers...just rewatching with Init file, may have been my eyes but I should be able to validate now...
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Hi folks
The first pic is log, the 2nd pic is color calibration...would any numbers in here indicate any kind of red push, that I would notice? I see the red number is elevated in the 2nd pic...could that be the cause? If it is, how would u suggest I correct it? Thanks
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I see no red push. Your measure was good before and it is almost perfect after calibration. Enjoy your VPR!
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Thanks...I had restored the Init file, calibrated gamma and the ran color log (1st pic) and color calibration (2nd pic). would the red numbers be dramatically elevated in the 2nd pic, if there was red push, instead of just slightly elevated like they are?
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Hi folks
The first pic is log, the 2nd pic is color calibration...would any numbers in here indicate any kind of red push, that I would notice? I see the red number is elevated in the 2nd pic...could that be the cause? If it is, how would u suggest I correct it? Thanks
The pre-cal is slightly too blue, and the post cal is slightly too red. Each on its own is negligible but apparently you were able to sense the 240K total difference.
Note that the post cal result is closer to the curve as well, meaning it’s more accurate (closer to D65) even though both are about 100K away from 6500K.
If you prefer less red, reduce the Red gain slightly and run another log, to get closer to the D65 target point (not just the 6500K reading).
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Thanks Dominic, I’ll try that this weekend while avoiding the crowds at Sobeys :'(...would the next step in this for me be HCFR so I could actually visually see what’s happening?
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The autocal logs show the x y and L values of the six main and secondary colours, but what are the reference values ?
Is there a document or a place that gives those reference values to compare them to ?
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The reference x, y, L values depend on the colour profile of the projector picture mode you select when running Autocal. For BT.709, Red would be
x=0.64, y=0.33, L=0.2126
etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._709
For the BT.2020 colour profile the reference gamut far exceeds the capability of the projector, so it makes more sense to compare against the DCI-P3 gamut:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCI-P3
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The autocal logs show the x y and L values of the six main and secondary colours, but what are the reference values ?
Is there a document or a place that gives those reference values to compare them to ?
Yes, I was thinking the same thing but not sure where to find it...
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Yes, I was thinking the same thing but not sure where to find it...
See the post immediately above yours.
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See the post immediately above yours.
Is there any particular reason after an Autocal that I would get a red push? Inaccurate meter? Meter positioning? Do u know if it happens often? BTW, on page 15 now of this thread...Slowly making my way thru it, not that I’m retaining it all but to see if others had similar issues.
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I’m not sure why you would trust your eyes more than the meter.
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I’m not sure why you would trust your eyes more than the meter.
Good point man, good point...just “feels/looks” like I have a pink tinge that I’ve been calling red push...I’ll try modifying the red gain tonight by a couple tics and see how I “feel”...
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Hi Ashrama, have you check the convergence. An (Un)alignement of the red matrice may be. Let your projector warm 1/2 hour before check the convergence (and also before do an autocal).
KR
Francis
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Mis-convergence should not cause an overall red tint. If misaligned, you may see some red fringing close up, but then the adjacent pixels will have a cyan cast due to the red deficiency. From a distance, the two will balance each other and not pose a red tint to the meter or to the viewer.
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Mis-convergence should not cause an overall red tint. If misaligned, you may see some red fringing close up, but then the adjacent pixels will have a cyan cast due to the red deficiency. From a distance, the two will balance each other and not pose a red tint to the meter or to the viewer.
Are there any sort of test patterns I could use to verify pinkish tinge Is or isn’t present...? I have the Ron Masciola patterns...Also I did receive a new screen this week and noticed the base coating was not as white as the previous same material so just wondering if that could be influencing my “feeling”...
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Hi Ashrama, have you check the convergence. An (Un)alignement of the red matrice may be. Let your projector warm 1/2 hour before check the convergence (and also before do an autocal).
KR
Francis
Thank you, yes convergence seems to be fine...I do typically wait an hour before running an Autocal
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Did an autocal on Thursday night and last night tightened things up with Calman with a C6 meter trained to an i1Pro2. I think things turned out pretty well. I forgot to do an "after" CEI, but I did do a color checker which turned out good.
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Are there any sort of test patterns I could use to verify pinkish tinge Is or isn’t present...? I have the Ron Masciola patterns...Also I did receive a new screen this week and noticed the base coating was not as white as the previous same material so just wondering if that could be influencing my “feeling”...
You can use any greyscale patterns. You will also need some software to do the measurements.
Any tint in the screen should have been corrected by Autocal since the meter measures off the screen.
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Just want to confirm if color calibration works similar to gamma calibration in regards to Picture modes...That is to say if I run color calibration for hdr10, the results will be applied to frame adapt HDR when in that mode...just confirming there is no need to setup a separate User1,2,3,4,5,6 picture mode for a color calibration if I want to have the color calibration applied to the default Frame Adapt picture mode...thanks
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The pre-cal is slightly too blue, and the post cal is slightly too red. Each on its own is negligible but apparently you were able to sense the 240K total difference.
Note that the post cal result is closer to the curve as well, meaning it’s more accurate (closer to D65) even though both are about 100K away from 6500K.
If you prefer less red, reduce the Red gain slightly and run another log, to get closer to the D65 target point (not just the 6500K reading).
Doing a bit of visual testing...I reduced red gain by 3 and it “feels/looks” better to my eyes...have not run a log yet...there are some scenes I feel I could back it off a few more ticks and be fine but -3 may be a good compromise for me...I’ll run a log and check the results against pre adjustment...
Edit: I can visually see during some of the pure white screen scenes in Lucy, there is a bit too much red in the pure white...when red gain is backed off a few tics it becomes more blue...with red gain at 0, definitely a faint pink color infecting the pure white...
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Did an autocal on Thursday night and last night tightened things up with Calman with a C6 meter trained to an i1Pro2. I think things turned out pretty well. I forgot to do an "after" CEI, but I did do a color checker which turned out good.
Just curious - do you see any 'real-world' differences following the Autocal, especially with reference to color?
I have done Gamma Autocal on mine, and it was pretty close to begin with. So after, no obvious visible change.
I don't have the proper meter for a Color Autocal, and find myself wondering if it would be worth investing the funds to get one. I have a fairly good eye for color balance, temperature, etc., from many years of semi-professional wildlife photography, and what I'm seeing looks spot on. But that said, I'm also aware of how our visual system can 'adapt' and sometimes 'trick' our perceptions. Hence the question.
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It tightened things up a bit, but I wouldn't say it was a massive improvement.
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Hi folks,
What piece of software would be the next logical step beyond Autocal to really visually see adjustments etc...Calman, HCFR or something else? Is the Spyder X and I1Pro2 supported? Which would have an easier learning curve? Thanks
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Hi folks,
What piece of software would be the next logical step beyond Autocal to really visually see adjustments etc...Calman, HCFR or something else? Is the Spyder X and I1Pro2 supported? Which would have an easier learning curve? Thanks
I use chromapure and id3pro to double check my autocal results. I hardly ever have to make much of an adjustment in chromapure post auto cal, so not sure if Id say it makes much of a visually significant difference.
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I use chromapure and id3pro to double check my autocal results. I hardly ever have to make much of an adjustment in chromapure post auto cal, so not sure if Id say it makes much of a visually significant difference.
Thanks, was there much of a learning curve?
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Thanks, was there much of a learning curve?
I find chromapure to be very easy to learn IMO. It also has a very cool/easy to do auto cal process with a lumagen radiance pro if you have one.
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Since I was able to get an i1 Pro 2, I don't need my i1 Pro any longer. If anyone is interested in it, let me know.
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Since I was able to get an i1 Pro 2, I don't need my i1 Pro any longer. If anyone is interested in it, let me know.
It's a great meter. I'm using the i1Pro2 for color and greyscle measurements. It's a little more difficult to use than my other meters, but it's far more accurate.
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It's a great meter. I'm using the i1Pro2 for color and greyscle measurements. It's a little more difficult to use than my other meters, but it's far more accurate.
I don't use it for grayscale (it's not really that great below 30IRE), but I use it to train a C6 meter (that's much faster) and has better low light performance. The two together are great. I'd love to have a Kline or Minolta, but I don't shit gold bricks :)
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I don't use it for grayscale (it's not really that great below 30IRE), but I use it to train a C6 meter (that's much faster) and has better low light performance. The two together are great. I'd love to have a Kline or Minolta, but I don't shit gold bricks :)
True, the low light capabilities of this meter are a bit limited. I wish I could afford a Klein K10A. The X-Rite i1display Pro I have is better for these types of measurements. That's normally what I use for gamma calibration and I bought a Spyder 5 just to use to auto-cal my NX9.
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True, the low light capabilities of this meter are a bit limited. I wish I could afford a Klein K10A. The X-Rite i1display Pro I have is better for these types of measurements. That's normally what I use for gamma calibration and I bought a Spyder 5 just to use to auto-cal my NX9.
You could use the Spyder profiles to the i1Pro 2 in Calman (I think? ).
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Does anyone have the original calibration file .init for NX5 they can share? Autocal did not save my init. file after calibration. Not sure if they differ between pj's, JVC did not have an answer, but it's worth a try.
I used I1pro 1 and I am not too impressed, I think factory looked better, despite measuring bang on.
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Does anyone have the original calibration file .init for NX5 they can share? Autocal did not save my init. file after calibration. Not sure if they differ between pj's, JVC did not have an answer, but it's worth a try.
I used I1pro 1 and I am not too impressed, I think factory looked better, despite measuring bang on.
That won't work as the init file is unique to your unit (and serial number).
It had to have saved it somewhere, either that or the calibration didn't run or save.
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Actually, it will work as I’ve (accidentally) imported an init file from my original jvc nx7 to my replacement nx7 and it worked fine.
Now, I’m not sure if an nx7 init can go into an nx5 or vice versa, but if you’re brave enough to try it I can send you mine. 🙂
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Actually, it will work as I’ve (accidentally) imported an init file from my original jvc nx7 to my replacement nx7 and it worked fine.
Now, I’m not sure if an nx7 init can go into an nx5 or vice versa, but if you’re brave enough to try it I can send you mine. 🙂
Sure, you can do it if you change the serial number in the file, it doesn't mean it's a good idea.
JVC strongly advise against this, as the init file is specific to each model, and possibly to each unit.
Should you have a problem, this would probably void your warranty.
I would definitely advise against doing this.
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Thanks for the replies, I think if I can get my hands on NX5 init file I would be willing to chance it.
BTW, my initial calibration was for colour only, under User 1 and Rec709. I did not do calibrated any other profiles.
Would that mean that my gamma settings are still factory or do they change even with colour only calibration? Also, would my HDR colour points remain original or would they be affected if I only calibrated Rec709?
I guess I am trying to figure out what specifically was changed from factory settings when doing colour only calibration under Rec 709. It was done under individual setting and low power lamp.
Thanks.
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It would have only changed one iris range, for all colour profiles that do not engage the P3 filter, at low lamp power.
Gamma would not have been affected, nor BT.2020 or other profiles that engage the P3 filter.
In view of the very limited scope of changes, personally I would not risk loading someone else's INIT file to undo the one change (and potentially mess up everything).
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Hello guys,
Sorry to bother but I have the RS520 and wanted to try the JVC Autocal or DisplayCal 3D Lut. From some comments I read, it seems that Manni normally was recommending the Spyder 5 at the time. Is that still recommend (or the new model X)?
I currently have the xrite i1 Display Pro which I use for my photo editing monitor.
Thanks!
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The RS520 only works with the Spyder 5, and the i1 Pro 2.
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The RS520 only works with the Spyder 5, and the i1 Pro 2.
I believe the 11 Pro works too, but it's recognized by the software as an i1 Pro 2.
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I believe the 11 Pro works too, but it's recognized by the software as an i1 Pro 2.
Well yes, they all run in i1 Pro compatibility mode.
i1 Pro (EFI ES-1000), i1 Pro 2 (EFI ES-2000).
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My concern is regarding comments that the xrite was not good for low gamma readings or something like that.
Thanks
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My concern is regarding comments that the xrite was not good for low gamma readings or something like that.
Thanks
This is correct, it is not.
When I do a simple 10-point gamma reading with my i1 Pro 2, I find that it's accurate down to about 20% pattern when compared to something like my Spyder or i1 Display Pro.
But the Autocal gamma can do 33 points, so many of them are well below 20% and thus the i1 Pro is not suitable.
So you really want both meters, one for gamma, and one for color.
It's really too bad JVC wont support the i1 Display Pro as that's the 1 affordable meter that would be able to do a reasonably good job for both all on its own, or with a correction matrix to an i1 Pro or even better spectro.
Especially considering they are already familiar working with an X-Rite.
Comeon JVC :)
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Should I go with the Spyder X or better to stick to the Spyder 5?
Thanks!
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The RS520 needs Autocal 9 which only supports the Spyder 5 and the i1Pro(1/2); Spyder X is not supported.
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Hi every one,
I'm new to this forum.
I joined now i want to use my N5 autocal. I just bought a Spyder X but already got an i1d3.
Could someone send me a pm cause i'd like to try and get my i1d3 to work at my own risk ?.
I can't send Manni a PM and i didn't manage to find info anywhere i checked.
Regards.
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- Offering a way to provide a correction matrix for the Spyder 5 Pro/Elite or any other colorimeter supported in the future, so that those with access to another software and a reference meter can profile the Spyder 5 facing the lens to the reference meter facing the screen. This would make the “spreadsheet method” currently used to correct the errors of the Spyder 5 unnecessary, and would likely provide better results overall, significantly faster and with less hassle. Even better if the software could generate this matrix itself using the i1pro2 facing the screen, so we can use the Spyder 5 for everything including color/white point calibration, and not just for gamma when we have both meters.
Karl Klammer just reported in the "old" forum that this often requested feature actually exists in the JVC autocal software, at least since V7!
"I don't know if someone else already found out that Autocal has some hidden settings that allow an XYZ correction matrix for the connected meter.
The option is called 'matrixOfSensor' and is located in the file %userprofile%\AppData\Roaming\JVCKENWOOD\Projector Calibration Software *\init.xml."
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Karl Klammer just reported in the "old" forum that this often requested feature actually exists in the JVC autocal software, at least since V7!
"I don't know if someone else already found out that Autocal has some hidden settings that allow an XYZ correction matrix for the connected meter.
The option is called 'matrixOfSensor' and is located in the file %userprofile%\AppData\Roaming\JVCKENWOOD\Projector Calibration Software *\init.xml."
Wow, thanks for this information, if true this is the most significant post in the whole thread, well done! :)
I'll investigate when I find the time, which won't be until next month unfortunately, due to work.
EDIT: I had a quick look, do you know the expected format of the table?
<matrixOfSensor>
<double>1</double>
<double>0</double>
<double>0</double>
<double>0</double>
<double>1</double>
<double>0</double>
<double>0</double>
<double>0</double>
<double>1</double>
</matrixOfSensor>
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Well, since I was mentioned here, I can also answer it directly. ;)
If you look at a matrix in HCFR you put the values from left to right and top to bottom in the xml file
My xml file looked like this:
<matrixOfSensor>
<double>0.02063751220703125</double>
<double>0.00086295604705810547</double>
<double>0.000039804726839065579</double>
<double>-0.00034344196319580078</double>
<double>0.021785736083984375</double>
<double>0.00023213028907775876</double>
<double>-0.0003108978271484375</double>
<double>-0.00026074051856994629</double>
<double>0.021076202392578125</double>
</matrixOfSensor>
(Spyder pointed towards Lens, reference meter pointed towards screen)
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How did you get those long numbers, in HCFR I can only see 6 digits after the period.
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Also, very weird matrix. I'd expect 1st, 5th and last value being closer to 1!
EDIT: maybe because you are profiling a Spyder 5... big difference in luminance implies big difference in the diagonal of the matrix.
Great find if confirmed!
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I mentioned HCFR as an example how to get the table into the lines of the xml file.
For my values I used a function from the SDK of my Klein K10-A.
Regarding the luminance difference: the Spyder was directed at the projector while the reference meter was directed at the screen.
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Usually matrices look more like this :
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Usually matrices look more like this :
If you want to get a "normal-looking" correction matrix, in HCFR you can override the measured white luminance with the reference white luminance value. Answer Yes when HCFR asks if you want to scale all measurements to the new white Y. Then create the correction matrix.
Doing this has the advantage of preserving the "yellow box" indicator that the software provides to help place the meter.
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Well, since I was mentioned here, I can also answer it directly. ;)
If you look at a matrix in HCFR you put the values from left to right and top to bottom in the xml file
My xml file looked like this:
<matrixOfSensor>
<double>0.02063751220703125</double>
<double>0.00086295604705810547</double>
<double>0.000039804726839065579</double>
<double>-0.00034344196319580078</double>
<double>0.021785736083984375</double>
<double>0.00023213028907775876</double>
<double>-0.0003108978271484375</double>
<double>-0.00026074051856994629</double>
<double>0.021076202392578125</double>
</matrixOfSensor>
(Spyder pointed towards Lens, reference meter pointed towards screen)
Thanks, but for those of us using Calman or Lightspace, we need to know the format of the file, i.e. which field of the matrix goes where. I assume it’s in R G B order. Is that what you follow with the Klein or HCFR?
And by the way, thanks for sharing, I can’t believe it was here from V7...
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As a Table, the lines in the xml file would look like this.
It is in R-G-B order.
(https://i.postimg.cc/85M5sKpQ/Spyder-matrix.png)
BTW, the guy who wrote the i1 Display DLL for Autocal pointed me to the xml file some time ago. So I don't claim to have found this. ;) I just experimented with it last week to verify that it really works. It was with Autocal 11. Later I reinstalled Autocal 7. And matrixOfSensor was also there, though I can't verify that it works for Autocal 7.
For those who did not see my screenshots in the other forum, here they are again:
Autocal for Gamma and Color with Spyder without matrix
(https://www.heimkinoverein.de/attachment/36092-202005-nx9-post-autocal-gamut-spyder-png/) (https://www.heimkinoverein.de/attachment/36091-202005-nx9-post-autocal-gamma-spyder-png/) (https://www.heimkinoverein.de/attachment/36090-202005-nx9-post-autocal-rgb-spyder-png/)
Autocal for gamma and color with Spyder and matrix
(https://www.heimkinoverein.de/attachment/36095-202005-nx9-post-autocal-gamut-spyder-matrix-png/) (https://www.heimkinoverein.de/attachment/36094-202005-nx9-post-autocal-gamma-spyder-matrix-png/) (https://www.heimkinoverein.de/attachment/36093-202005-nx9-post-autocal-rgb-spyder-matrix-png/)
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Is that right that you made your correction matrix with simultaneous measures and the spyder X facing the projector and the Klein facing the screen ?
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@Manni : I made the #1000 reply in this forum, did I win something ......? ::)::)
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Is that right that you made your correction matrix with simultaneous measures and the spyder X facing the projector and the Klein facing the screen ?
It was a Spyder 5. But yes, the rest is, how I did it.
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It was a Spyder 5. But yes, the rest is, how I did it.
Karl,
Can you write detailed instructions on how to do this? I "think" I know how I can do it, but I'm not 100% sure.
From your charts what it looks like is you can do an autocal that's essentially 99.9% perfect, which eliminates the need to do a manual calibration. Is this correct?
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It was a Spyder 5. But yes, the rest is, how I did it.
I see, that explains the sensor facing the projector.
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From your charts what it looks like is you can do an autocal that's essentially 99.9% perfect, which eliminates the need to do a manual calibration. Is this correct?
I was also able to get excellent results using this method. Note, however, it is just a convenience and cannot improve the colour autocal beyond what you can do with the i1Pro2 directly; it has no effect on gamma autocal.
(https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2731998&d=1590352255)
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Is the benefit to be able to do color and gamma at the same time? So essentially it's just a time saver?
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Karl,
Can you write detailed instructions on how to do this? I "think" I know how I can do it, but I'm not 100% sure.
From your charts what it looks like is you can do an autocal that's essentially 99.9% perfect, which eliminates the need to do a manual calibration. Is this correct?
I'll try it (English is a foreign language for me. So please excuse my mistakes ;))
For this procedure to make sense, you must have access to a meter that is more accurate than a Spyder.
In my case it is a K10-A profiled to an i1 Pro 2.
I admit, that I may have caused some confusion by writing that I had my Spyder facing the projector. Of course a Spyder X will have to be placed facing the screen. And then the matrix will definitely look more like jj-34 has shown. But since Autocal <12 needs the Spyder 5 facing the projector, I found it more practical to make the measurements for the matrix the way I wrote earlier.
An XYZ correction matrix will tell Autocal, how to correct the measurement data it receives from the Spyder.
So the first step is to create this matrix. There are several options. I can't go into much detail here, since my workflow is based on LightSpace/ColourSpace and the Klein SDK, and I don't have much experience with other solutions. Maybe someone else can chime in.
There is of course HCFR where you can build a matrix based on comparison measuerments between the Spyder and a reference meter. jj-34 has shown the window containing the matrix a few posts earlier.
CalMan also has the option to create a matrix.
If you only have access to raw measurements from Spyder and reference there is an Excel sheet, I found in the other forum. And Calman also has an external tool called "CalMAN 2018 Four Color Matrix Tool".
So once you have built the correction matrix, you have to put the nine values in the table into the lines of xml file in your windows user profile. If you have done this, you are ready to go and can use Autocal the way you usually do.
When you have a big luminance difference like in my matrix, the Spyder will most likely be shown outside the rectangle in the Autocal meter placement window. But based on my experience, you can disregard that unless Autocal shows 0 measurements in its log.
If you are a perfectionist, there is always some room for improvement. But I think the result is very good. My verification measurements after Autocal showed an average dE 2000 of 1.17 and a maximum of 1.74.
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I can't go into much detail here, since my workflow is based on LightSpace/ColourSpace and the Klein SDK
Thanks for the detailed explanation, I'm sure it will help many who are not familiar with using a matrix correction for profiling.
As your workflow is with Lightspace/Colourspace, please could you share the exact correspondance between your Colourspace matrix and the xml file? Just a screenshot of both with the same values would be enough.
I understand that you're using the Klein tool to "correct" the Klein with the i1pro2, but then you must be creating a matrix in Colourspace with the Klein as the reference and the Spyder as the field meter. That's the matrix correction I'm interested in here, as well as the corresponding values in the XML.
From there, we can confirm the format of the XML file.
Having just the values in the XML file doesn't really help if we don't know what the values mean.
I'm sure we'll fine with trial and error, but having this info would save time.
Thanks again!
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Is the benefit to be able to do color and gamma at the same time? So essentially it's just a time saver?
If you have a Spyder and an i1pro2, yes, it's just about convenience and time saving, but if you have a real reference spectrometer (which the i1pro2 or the unprofiled Klein aren't), for example a Jeti1511, which isn't supported by the Autocal, it means you can get the Autocal to produce near reference results with the Spyder.
Of course, the other advantage is for those who don't have an i1pro2 but and a better meter than the Spyder that isn't supported by the Autocal. That means they can use their i1d3 or their Colormunki or whatever to correct their Spyder and get much better results with the Autocal. Before the Autocal started supporting the i1pro2, the only way to correct the Spyder was to use a spreadsheet method, and that was a bear...
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For this procedure to make sense, you must have access to a meter that is more accurate than a Spyder.
In my case it is a K10-A profiled to an i1 Pro 2.
Is there any specific reason for using the K10-A (profiled to an i1Pro2) to profile the Spyder, instead of using the i1Pro2 directly?
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Is there any specific reason for using the K10-A (profiled to an i1Pro2) to profile the Spyder, instead of using the i1Pro2 directly?
It makes sense to profile the K10A to the i1pro2 in order to use the Klein in general, but in this case no, in most cases there is no benefit to go through the K10A. You would get the same or better results profiling the Spyder to the i1pro2 directly, but I guess if the Klein is already profiled to the i1pro2 using the Klein tools, it's faster to just use the Klein as a reference meter if you don't want to get the i1pro2 out. You shouldn't lose much if the first profile was good, but you won't gain anything purely for profiling.
The i1pro2 can struggle to read some colors (especially red and blue) even with the 100% patches used for matrixing, but whatever you do to resolve this when creating the Klein profile (zooming down, etc) you could do when creating a Spyder profile directly from the i1pro2.
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I did not use the i1 Pro 2 directly, because the K10-A already has a correction profile saved in its internal memory (and I was too lazy unpacking it). So I use the internal profile and not a LightSpace/ColourSpace profile.
The whole procedure was an experiment. I usually don't do a color Autocal. Instead I let my Radiance and two LUTs take care of everything except the gamma drift.
The reason I mentioned the Klein SDK was that I hijacked a tool that I have written based on it to create the matrix.
So here is a screenshot of the tables in my tool.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Px2H4yG9/Spyder-matrix3.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0FLwhzQ/Spyder-matrix-xml.png)
As I am only hijacking it, the captions don't match the tables. So the lower left table contains the imported K10-A WRGB measurements from ColourSpace (already corrected due to the internal profile). The lower right table contains the imported Spyder WRGB measurements. The upper table contains the matrix that the Klein SDK has calculated from the lower two tables.
Edit: I added red numbers in the cells in the upper table of the first screenshot to match the lines in the xml file.
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I mentioned HCFR as an example how to get the table into the lines of the xml file.
For my values I used a function from the SDK of my Klein K10-A.
Regarding the luminance difference: the Spyder was directed at the projector while the reference meter was directed at the screen.
Yes, that was what I meant. Usually the value on the diagonal is close to 1, while all the others are close to 0. When instead you are using two devices with a big difference in luminance, you get values not that close to 1.
Apologies for not being clear enough.
Of course with this approach you are also putting the screen in the equation and that is a further advantage!
I can't believe we have the opportunity to set a correction matrix! That's awesome!
Many Thanks!
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Of course with this approach you are also putting the screen in the equation and that is a further advantage!
In theory you can also use this to "calibrate out" the difference between Autocal using full screen patterns, and the more common approach of using 10% windowed patterns for calibration.
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Has anyone noticed a second matrix within that init.xml file? It is called "matrixOfCalc". Is that a kind of post-processing matrix to apply a further correction? Anybody tried to change it?
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I have my spyderxpro hooked up and i'm getting ready to start my gamma calibration.
On the install the sensor screen, it says to move my projector which is mounted in the back of the room forward, so that I get it within the little orange box.
Any suggestions?
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The software is saying the measured light level may be lower than optimal. When this happens with the meter facing the projector (Spyder5), you simply have to move the meter closer to the projector. The SpyderX faces the screen and the distance to the screen does not affect the measured brightness, so the software tells you to move the projector closer to the screen, which in many cases is not practical. Instead, you can adjust the zoom to project a smaller image, which will give you more brightness.
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The software is saying the measured light level may be lower than optimal. When this happens with the meter facing the projector (Spyder5), you simply have to move the meter closer to the projector. The SpyderX faces the screen and the distance to the screen does not affect the measured brightness, so the software tells you to move the projector closer to the screen, which in many cases is not practical. Instead, you can adjust the zoom to project a smaller image, which will give you more brightness.
This worked. Thank you!
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Gamma w/spyder x running on user 1 right now. Can I knock out all the gamma calibrations for users 1-4 before moving onto color and positioning the i1pro2? Or do I have to do each user fully (i.e gamma then color for user1)before moving on to the next?
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Gamma w/spyder x running on user 1 right now. Can I knock out all the gamma calibrations for users 1-4 before moving onto color and positioning the i1pro2? Or do I have to do each user fully (i.e gamma then color for user1)before moving on to the next?
You only have to do gamma once each (low and high lamp). It uses that as a baseline for all other measurements. So do gamma 2.2, iris 0, low lamp, then the same in high lamp, then you can place your Pro2 and do all the iris settings that you use.
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Sounds Good. Just ran them and went ok.
I just hooked up the i1pro2 and now having issues getting it to fall in the orange box after selecting the sensor.
I've tried zooming in the picture, but it's acting really finnicky.
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Sounds Good. Just ran them and went ok.
I just hooked up the i1pro2 and now having issues getting it to fall in the orange box after selecting the sensor.
I've tried zooming in the picture, but it's acting really finnicky.
It doesn’t really matter about the orange box when using the i1 Pro 2 for color calibration.
Color calibration only measures 7 patterns, the 3 primary colors, 3 secondary colors, and white, all 100% luminance so they are very bright and the meter will have no trouble reading them accurately.
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It doesn’t really matter about the orange box when using the i1 Pro 2 for color calibration.
Color calibration only measures 7 patterns, the 3 primary colors, 3 secondary colors, and white, all 100% luminance so they are very bright and the meter will have no trouble reading them accurately.
Perfect. Thanks for the reply.
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Gamma w/spyder x running on user 1 right now. Can I knock out all the gamma calibrations for users 1-4 before moving onto color and positioning the i1pro2? Or do I have to do each user fully (i.e gamma then color for user1)before moving on to the next?
The total number of gamma calibrations depends on the colour profiles and lamp power you use for the four user modes. For profiles that engage or disengage the P3 filter, you have to run separate calibrations (unless you choose the option to apply all, which is less accurate).
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The total number of gamma calibrations depends on the colour profiles and lamp power you use for the four user modes. For profiles that engage or disengage the P3 filter, you have to run separate calibrations (unless you choose the option to apply all, which is less accurate).
Good catch...forgot about the filter modes!
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Exactly, there are actually 4 different possible permutations:
- low lamp - filter off
- low lamp - filter on
- high lamp - filter off
- high lamp - filter on
Of course in case of RS1000/NX5 there is no color filter and only lamp matters.
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Before doing autocal, wanted to get my contrast and brightness in order. I have some white and black hdr clipping patterns I'm using.
I've changed these on one of my other hdr settings. Should I use clipping patterns to tighten up brightness/contrast for frame adapt hdr, or do I leave those values at 0?
Are bright/contrast changed on fly w/frame adapt?
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I calibrated using a manual aperture of -3. If I change from manual to Auto 2 will that nullify my calibration? Thanks for the help.
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It will change the gamma, but then you cannot run Autocal with Auto Iris in any case.
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It will change the gamma, but then you cannot run Autocal with Auto Iris in any case.
Ahh ok. So it’s a question of whether it’s an improvement over the calibrated gamma. I know the contrast is improved with the dynamic contrast on. What would you do?
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Since you can't calibrate with Dynamic Iris on, just calibrate with Manual Iris and then decide while viewing. Your calibration will not be nullified.
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Ultimately I did look at a test pattern with the dynamic iris on. I noticed that it blows the bright whites out for some reason however Contrast is improved. So for me I just use manual iris with a -3 aperture. Hopefully JVC will fix the issue at some point.
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Ultimately I did look at a test pattern with the dynamic iris on. I noticed that it blows the bright whites out for some reason however Contrast is improved. So for me I just use manual iris with a -3 aperture. Hopefully JVC will fix the issue at some point.
It blows it out because it’s boosting the gamma so much.
I doubt they will do anything about it. I’ve observed this behavior even back to the RS400/500/600 from 5 years ago and it was probably earlier too.
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Last night I have been able to make a correction matrix for my i1D3 Vs my i1 Pro2 using my N7 and my screen, I carried on doing a few full ( gamma and colour ) basic Autocals using the i1D3 with its correction matrix, here's what I got :
Natural : D65, Rec709, low lamp and manual iris 0 :
(https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/ressources/image/190578)
User1 : D65, Rec709, low lamp but this time iris = -11 as that's the setting I use to show SDR with 15 FL :
(https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/ressources/image/190580)
HDR10 : HDR, D65, BT2020, high lamp and iris = 0 :
(https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/ressources/image/190581)
Any comments ?
Thanks.
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How are you using first calibration with iris=0? Just curious...
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How are you using first calibration with iris=0? Just curious...
I do not quite get your question, I positioned the iris to manual 0 that's all.
And I did the second one with the manual iris at -11 as Manni said that it should be done with the actual viewing iris setting (at least when viewing SDR material).
So I will be able to compare my Natural picture mode (iris 0) with the User1 one (iris -11).
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I asked how are you using it, not how did you get it :)
The question is simply this: why did you calibrate with iris=0 and low lamp? Is it too much light for SDR and not enough for 3D or HDR.
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I asked how are you using it, not how did you get it :)
The question is simply this: why did you calibrate with iris=0 and low lamp? Is it too much light for SDR and not enough for 3D or HDR.
English language subleties, I often do not know how to use some words or expressions that may have different contextual meanings in french, like to at on for etc... :(
I calibrate with iris=0 because this is what was suggested initially to have max light for the gamma low IRE measures and as it was stated that the gamma curve is not dependent on the iris value, but recently Manni suggested to use the actual viewing value so I did it too to compare.
But first finding is that the i1d3 is sensitive enough to return good low IRE values even with the iris closed to -11, look at the D65 grouping, I did not have such grouping with either the spyder or the i1 Pro2.
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No worries, I’m Italian and for sure my English is not perfect! :)
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Last night I have been able to make a correction matrix for my i1D3 Vs my i1 Pro2 using my N7 and my screen, I carried on doing a few full ( gamma and colour ) basic Autocals using the i1D3 with its correction matrix, here's what I got :
You can't adequately "evaluate" the calibration based on the autocal log alone, as there's not enough "resolution". The lowest point shown is at 12.5 IRE; if there are issues they may occur at much lower levels.
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You can't adequately "evaluate" the calibration based on the autocal log alone, as there's not enough "resolution". The lowest point shown is at 12.5 IRE; if there are issues they may occur at much lower levels.
I take it the Autocals are a required starting point before doing an actual calibration.
So now I'm looking into the free HCFR calibration, but as a complete beginner I figure it implies a steep learning curve needing time to grasp it and I have so little effective time .....
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I take it the Autocals are a required starting point before doing an actual calibration.
So now I'm looking into the free HCFR calibration, but as a complete beginner I figure it implies a steep learning curve needing time to grasp it and I have so little effective time .....
Autocal does 33-pt gamma calibration, whereas the manual gamma calibration only provides 12 points. I was referring to checking the results of Autocal using HCFR etc.
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Autocal does 33-pt gamma calibration, whereas the manual gamma calibration only provides 12 points. I was referring to checking the results of Autocal using HCFR etc.
Next step ..... will do a greyscale sweep and see how it looks like 8)
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Hello guys!
I will be getting an RS540 next week. I read someone here that says he used V11 with the RWS540 but from JVC page it seems V10 is the highest compatible with the 540.
Has anyone used a newer version?
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JVC Autocal versions unlike firmwares are not newer or older, they are only projector and sensor related.
For your RS540 there's only one version : V10 + sensors I1 Pro2 or Spyder 5
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Has anyone tried this to use the i1 display pro?
https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/videoprojection/jvc-autocalibrage-avec-la-i1d3-t30103942.html (https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/videoprojection/jvc-autocalibrage-avec-la-i1d3-t30103942.html)
Or too risky?
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Has anyone tried this to use the i1 display pro?
https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/videoprojection/jvc-autocalibrage-avec-la-i1d3-t30103942.html (https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/videoprojection/jvc-autocalibrage-avec-la-i1d3-t30103942.html)
Or too risky?
It works very well, but the author has withdrawn it due to potential copyright issues.
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Hello!
I know this is not for the version I am running, but can someone give me an idea of how my results are so far and how to interpret them better so I can tell when I am actually getting better results? :)
I am attaching results (USER 5) with REC2020 and also the displaycal 3DLut.
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Then the 2nd (user 3) set is for a custom profile from "MANNI" 2020NF.
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I think this is how I am going to leave it as I believe I got pretty good results without the filter so I can get more light to keep my desired screen size.
This is with HDR color profile and -4 so I can get more seamless Auto Iris and hopefully prolong its life vs going from wide open aperture.
(https://i.ibb.co/ypHgsNT/IMG-20200629-220059.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ypHgsNT) (https://i.ibb.co/7b10Yxd/IMG-20200629-194106.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7b10Yxd) (https://i.ibb.co/GJMhW9J/IMG-20200629-194121.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GJMhW9J) (https://i.ibb.co/Lvs79CM/IMG-20200629-202033.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lvs79CM) (https://i.ibb.co/17x35Nk/IMG-20200629-194035.jpg) (https://ibb.co/17x35Nk) (https://i.ibb.co/Svtx2t5/IMG-20200629-202043.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Svtx2t5) (https://i.ibb.co/m8w1Wng/IMG-20200629-202023.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m8w1Wng)
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Closing the iris does not prolong the lamp life. If anything, more heat will be "trapped" in the projector.
I was not talking about the lamp life. I am referring to the reported issues with Auto Iris going bad. I would think going from -4 instead of 0 makes it work less hard plus it less noticeable when the light level drops.
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Hello everybody,
I have two questions related to new RS2000 auto-calibration process, since some issues are still not clear to me.
1st. Using a Spyder X meter, looking at calibration manual, it is reported that i have to adjust projector to screen distance so to stay in the orange box. But, what about if i have a roof projector + fixed screen and can't arrange their distance to stay into the box? JVC lens throw is very wide, so distances can vary very much (2 to 6 meters also). Can i still proceed in the process even if out of the box or what else?
2nd. With latest firmware upgrade, which introduced the HDR frame adapter, if i manage to calibrate colors of that mode, is the process adjusting BT 2020 color space? I mean, at the end of colour calibration of HDR frame adapter mode, will result calibrated all profiles using BT 2020 with same parameters (iris, lamp level, etc)?
Thanks for your help,
BR,
Federico
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You can still proceed with the calibration even if the image shows outside the orange box. You may want to adjust the zoom to produce the smallest (brightest) image, for gamma autocal.
You cannot run autocal with the projector in Frame Adapt mode, so you will have to use HDR10 or a user mode with the same general settings (profile, lamp power).
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You can still proceed with the calibration even if the image shows outside the orange box. You may want to adjust the zoom to produce the smallest (brightest) image, for gamma autocal.
You cannot run autocal with the projector in Frame Adapt mode, so you will have to use HDR10 or a user mode with the same general settings (profile, lamp power).
Profile is not relevant. Same [lamp power, iris aperture, color filter] for color calibration, same [lamp power, color filter] for gamma calibration. Color filter is not present/considered in case of N5/RS1000
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Hi guys, does anyone know the key sequence to be typed on the remote control to access the service menu for N7?
Thanks
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Hi guys, does anyone know the key sequence to be typed on the remote control to access the service menu for N7?
Thanks
Unlike the e-shift models which require a specific button sequence on the remote, for the N7 the factory reset can be accessed directly from the standard menu.
Anything else that can only be accessed from the service menu?
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Brought a used i1 Pro2 and is trying to use V12 in window 10 . Install driver from X-rite site, Software V12 failed to recognize the driver when I click on icon. i1 Pro2 did blink once. Need help, thanks!
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The i1Pro2 needs to be placed in the calibration base plate with the white calibration tile open, when you click on the icon.
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The i1Pro2 needs to be placed in the calibration base plate with the white calibration tile open, when you click on the icon.
Thanks SO much, it works now.
Now it comes different problem. I use a more than 20 ft. of USB extension cable between the sensor and the PC because I don't have a laptop. It will not work again:(
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Thanks SO much, it works now.
Now it comes different problem. I use a more than 20 ft. of USB extension cable between the sensor and the PC because I don't have a laptop. It will not work again:(
Use a powered USB hub on the i1pro side of the USB extension, it will work fine.
If you use more than one meter, make sure your USB hub has at least a 2AMP power adapter.
Also, use a USB 2.0 hub, USB 3.0 can cause issues.
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Unlike the e-shift models which require a specific button sequence on the remote, for the N7 the factory reset can be accessed directly from the standard menu.
Anything else that can only be accessed from the service menu?
I don't need a factory reset, I want access to service menu for use internal patterns in order to do a correction matrix for SpiderX directly from the projector without external patterns generator. I don't know if there is another method for use the internal patterns.
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Does V12 works properly with window XP . My alternative of not having a long USB cord is an old Laptop that still runs on windows XP. Thanks in advance:)
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Does V12 works properly with window XP . My alternative of not having a long USB cord is an old Laptop that still runs on windows XP. Thanks in advance:)
See in the second post for the link to the Autocal V12, it doesn't support XP:
Microsoft Windows 10（32/64bit）
Microsoft Windows 8（32/64bit）
Microsoft Windows 7（32/64bit）
are the only OSes supported.
It doesn't mean that it won't work with XP, but I certainly haven't tried, so you would have to try yourself if no one confirms.
There is nothing wrong with using a long USB extension, as long as you have a powered USB Hub at the i1pro end. That's what I do, and it works fine as long as the power adapter for the USB Hub is strong enough (2A or more for 4-port).
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I use this one : CSL - USB 3.0 5m amplified (https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B0158TFRFA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and it works very well.
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I use this one : CSL - USB 3.0 5m amplified (https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B0158TFRFA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and it works very well.
Sure, but the OP needs more than 7 meters (20ft), and an amplified extension cable can only be used for one device.
The advantage of using a powered hub is that you can use any extension length you want, and you can connect as many meters you need with a single extension (as long as the power adapter for the hub is strong enough).
Anyway, they have all the info now...
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Hello, thank you Manni for all these explanations.
i will be getting an NX5 soon, i am planning 3dlut calibration with Display CAL for MADVR.
Seeing that the NX5 doesn't have a Dci P3 filter but still covers 84%, can I create a lut3d DCI-P3 to take advantage of the native gamut of the projector?
Excuse me, this is a translation from French to English.
Thank you
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Hello, thank you Manni for all these explanations.
i will be getting an NX5 soon, i am planning 3dlut calibration with Display CAL for MADVR.
Seeing that the NX5 doesn't have a Dci P3 filter but still covers 84%, can I create a lut3d DCI-P3 to take advantage of the native gamut of the projector?
Excuse me, this is a translation from French to English.
Thank you
Hi,
Sure, you can do that, just make sure your 3D LUT targets a 2.2 gamma as this is what madVR uses to tonemap HDR content to SDR (when using pixel shaders).
You might get a bit of posterization as your N5 doesn't reach the full P3 gamut, but there are ways to address that depending on the software you use. The simplest way to do so is to not use the Autocal, so not to use a DCI-P3 preset in the JVC but to use profile off / high bright so your baseline is the native gamut and let the 3D LUT do all the correction. It's very easy to do with the N5 as there is no filter. This will ensure that no posterization is added with the 3D LUT due to the gamut compression that the JVCs do at the edge of the gamut.
With the N7/N9, it's more difficult as profile off is only available without the filter, but I've asked HD Fury to add a feature to the JVC Macros to enable the filter when needed for a calibration so if you have a Maestro/Diva/Vertex2 and it works great, so there is a way forward for N7/N9 users too.
Profile off tracks DCI-P3 fairly closely, even if the white balance is completely off.
If DisplayCAL doesn't set the white balance with the LUT, you'll simply have to set 100% white to D65 in the high bright color temp, and let the 3D LUT do the rest.
As this is mostly off topic, please do not ask further questions on madVR or DisplayCAL in this thread :)
Bonne chance!
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When using SpyderX facing the sensor at the screen, how is it possible to adjacent the projector relative to the screen when the projector is fixed install on the ceiling?
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I use this one : CSL - USB 3.0 5m amplified (https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B0158TFRFA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and it works very well.
I was using this BlueRigger USB 2.0 Active Extension/Repeater Cable - Type A Male to A Female (24FT)
and it didn't work :(
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I was using this BlueRigger USB 2.0 Active Extension/Repeater Cable - Type A Male to A Female (24FT)
and it didn't work :(
As I said, you need to use a passive extension with a USB 2.0 HUB (2A mini for 4-port) on the meter side. That's guaranteed to work. It might also work with your active extension. The i1pro needs a lot of power, and the active extension doesn't provide enough. I won't comment any further as if you don't want to try what works, that's your right :).
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When using SpyderX facing the sensor at the screen, how is it possible to adjacent the projector relative to the screen when the projector is fixed install on the ceiling?
See the previous question and the reply:
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg17431#msg17431
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Does anybody send in the i1 Pro 2 for recertification ?
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I don't need a factory reset, I want access to service menu for use internal patterns in order to do a correction matrix for SpiderX directly from the projector without external patterns generator. I don't know if there is another method for use the internal patterns.
The sequence for old VPRs was up-down-right-left-enter. Maybe it works with N series as well.
Are you sure there are internal patterns helpful for correction, like R,G,B and W?
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Does anybody send in the i1 Pro 2 for recertification ?
I would also be interested in this, having just bought a used one from eBay?
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I would also be interested in this, having just bought a used one from eBay?
I checked with x-rite. To re-certify is US $495.00. More expensive than the unit I ,too, purchased from ebay:(
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I checked with x-rite. To re-certify is US $495.00. More expensive than the unit I ,too, purchased from ebay:(
LOL - won't be doing that then!!!
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The sequence for old VPRs was up-down-right-left-enter. Maybe it works with N series as well.
Are you sure there are internal patterns helpful for correction, like R,G,B and W?
Yes, service menu contain some internal patterns including R,G,B,W that are enough for a manual meter profiling, include also C,M,Y for an additional of Gamut definition, if you want perform it.
The N7/RS2000 right sequence to show the service Menu is:
- No menu shown.
- Press the [OK] button.
- Within press the [<] button.
- Within press the [>] button.
- Within press the [OK] button.
- Within press the [BACK] button.
- Within press the [OK] button to display the service menu.
For the above thanks to JVC Customer care.
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Yes, service menu contain some internal patterns including R,G,B,W that are enough for a manual meter profiling, include also C,M,Y for an additional of Gamut definition, if you want perform it.
The N7/RS2000 right sequence to show the service Menu is:
- No menu shown.
- Press the [OK] button.
- Within press the [<] button.
- Within press the [>] button.
- Within press the [OK] button.
- Within press the [BACK] button.
- Within press the [OK] button to display the service menu.
For the above thanks to JVC Customer care.
Thanks for this, very useful, link to this added in the second post.
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IMPORTANT WARNING: using the Autocal software changes internal tables in the projector. The first time you use it and save a calibration, it will create a .INIT file that contains the calibration tables as they were when the PJ left the factory. This .init file is saved in the folder you have selected in the software settings. There is no way to re-create this .INIT file if you lose it or delete it, yet restoring this .INIT file is the only way to revert the PJ to its factory state (doing a factory reset in the service menu only restores user settings, not calibration tables). So please make sure that you back up this .INIT and keep the back-up copy in a safe place.
Manni, do you know if after the first calibration the file.init, related to the PJ when left the factory, is valid even if the software version changes? I mean, from firmware 2.xx JVC went to firmware 3.10, during the first calibration, after the installation of the 3.10 firmware, a new file.init was created, this cancels and replaces any previously generated .init file? I think so because the new firmware modifies the internal database of the projector, for example version 3.10 introduced the frame adapter HDR that did not exist in the previous versions. So if you need to reinstall the.init file, is the last one created the only valid?
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Actually Autocal re-creates a new init file whenever it does not find any existing one on your PC in the default folder or the one you have specified in the autocal parameters
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Manni, do you know if after the first calibration the file.init, related to the PJ when left the factory, is valid even if the software version changes? I mean, from firmware 2.xx JVC went to firmware 3.10, during the first calibration, after the installation of the 3.10 firmware, a new file.init was created, this cancels and replaces any previously generated .init file? I think so because the new firmware modifies the internal database of the projector, for example version 3.10 introduced the frame adapter HDR that did not exist in the previous versions. So if you need to reinstall the.init file, is the last one created the only valid?
I would say that the INIT file is always valid. 3.10 introduces the new Frame Adapt mode but it cannot be calibrated on its own, it relies on the static HDR10 calibration (gamut, color temp, gamma) and even then isn't 100% accurate. this would suggest that there are no new tables coming with the new f/w.
Of course, the only way to prove this would be to experiment. I think JVC would have sent a warning if it was the case, or would have at the very least created a new INIT file and told us why at the first Autocal use with 3.10.
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Manni, do you know if after the first calibration the file.init, related to the PJ when left the factory, is valid even if the software version changes? I mean, from firmware 2.xx JVC went to firmware 3.10, during the first calibration, after the installation of the 3.10 firmware, a new file.init was created, this cancels and replaces any previously generated .init file? I think so because the new firmware modifies the internal database of the projector, for example version 3.10 introduced the frame adapter HDR that did not exist in the previous versions. So if you need to reinstall the.init file, is the last one created the only valid?
A new INIT file is created whenever you change the folder or delete its content, but it doesn't mean that it will allow you to go back to factory settings. Only the very first INIT file allows this.
I don't think there are new tables for the new Frame Adapt mode, otherwise we could calibrate it properly with the JVC Autocal and it wouldn't rely on the HDR10 calibration, as is the case currently. I didn't see any new INIT file created when I upgraded to 3.10, but I could have missed it.
I think JVC would have issued a warning if it was the case. AFAIK, the original INIT file is needed to get back to factory defaults.
Of course, the only way to find out for sure is to experiment, but count me out of that one :)
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Manni,
Thank you so much for all the effort you have put into this guide.
Can you please help me understand . . . the AutoCal sorts out the Gamma (using SpyderX) and the Colour (using i1Pro2). How/what is used to set the contrast and brightness or is this covered by the AutoCal? I know that you have given some example settings for calibration, but not all units are the same. How do I ensure I am getting the correct brightness and black levels?
FYI - I have SpyderX, i1Pro2 (ES-2000) and i1Display and HCFR
Many thanks,
Ian.
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A new INIT file is created whenever you change the folder or delete its content, but it doesn't mean that it will allow you to go back to factory settings. Only the very first INIT file allows this.
I don't think there are new tables for the new Frame Adapt mode, otherwise we could calibrate it properly with the JVC Autocal and it wouldn't rely on the HDR10 calibration, as is the case currently. I didn't see any new INIT file created when I upgraded to 3.10, but I could have missed it.
I think JVC would have issued a warning if it was the case. AFAIK, the original INIT file is needed to get back to factory defaults.
Of course, the only way to find out for sure is to experiment, but count me out of that one :)
I think that, because the hardware not change, any new firmware create a new factory settings. Upgrade means to change the software, the data base and correct te bugs, otherwise don't have sense. Example, in one of the upgrading it was been inserted the option Panasonic table, means that, the .init file create after the upgrading, at the first new calibration, contain the factory data for Panasonic also, and if it is imported the old .init file (done before the upgrading) this don't have factory data for Panasonic. So I think that any firmware upgrading change the old factory default values and create a new factory status. In any case I can state that in my case when I have installed the firmware 3.10 a new .init file has been created.
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Manni,
Thank you so much for all the effort you have put into this guide.
Can you please help me understand . . . the AutoCal sorts out the Gamma (using SpyderX) and the Colour (using i1Pro2). How/what is used to set the contrast and brightness or is this covered by the AutoCal? I know that you have given some example settings for calibration, but not all units are the same. How do I ensure I am getting the correct brightness and black levels?
FYI - I have SpyderX, i1Pro2 (ES-2000) and i1Display and HCFR
Many thanks,
Ian.
You're welcome :)
You have to use brightness and contrast patters (for both SDR and HDR) to set brightness and contrast after the Autocal. There are many sources for these: Spears and Munsils discs, Masciola patterns, etc.
Nothing specific to Autocal here, you can do it by eye as none of your meters can reliable measure black (at least off the screen).
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You're welcome :)
You have to use brightness and contrast patters (for both SDR and HDR) to set brightness and contrast after the Autocal. There are many sources for these: Spears and Munsils discs, Masciola patterns, etc.
Nothing specific to Autocal here, you can do it by eye as none of your meters can reliable measure black (at least off the screen).
Awesome, thank you, I have purchased the Spears and Munsil discs, I will use these after the AutoCal.
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Hi Manni,
I can confirm EFI ES-2000 work like an i1pro2 in JVC autocal and in Calman - needs for boths only the driver "i1_x64.sys, year 2006 release" instead, the 2009 release of driver, works with Calman but not with JVC Autocal. Both the software recognize ES-2000 as an i1pro2 with hardware serial number. I think the principle it is valid for other software also.
Tank you for the suggestion, I have bought ES-2000 after I read your thread and now I am glad confirm your hypothesis.
In therms of hypothesis I think that the colorimeter EIZO EX3 is a sypder5 clone and in this case the cost is very low.
See the attachment.
Regards
I have purchased a used ES-2000 from eBay, it appears fine in Win10 Device Manager, it passes all tests successfully in i1Diagnostics, but the driver is 2.40.0.1315 (2009) and cannot be seen. Any ideas of where I can find the older driver and what version that is?
Thanks,
Ian.
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I have purchased a used ES-2000 from eBay, it appears fine in Win10 Device Manager, it passes all tests successfully in i1Diagnostics, but the driver is 2.40.0.1315 (2009) and cannot be seen. Any ideas of where I can find the older driver and what version that is?
Thanks,
Ian.
The i1Diags being successfull means the driver is correctly installed, that's all that is required, BUT for autocal to detect it, it has to be plugged in and sitting on its calibration white tile support (white tile uncovered of course) BEFORE starting autocal.
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The i1Diags being successfull means the driver is correctly installed, that's all that is required, BUT for autocal to detect it, it has to be plugged in and sitting on its calibration white tile support (white tile uncovered of course) BEFORE starting autocal.
Thanks, I will try that.
How are people connecting their EFI ES-2000 to the tripod as there is no bracket? Just elastic bands?
Thanks
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A simple smartphone holder like that one :
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/516zono3bgL._AC_SX425_.jpg)
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A simple smartphone holder like that one :
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/516zono3bgL._AC_SX425_.jpg)
Perfect, thank you! :)
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Hint : the i1Pro2 and ES-2000 require some current, so better to plug them into a USB3 socket ( mine does not pass the i1diags when plugged into a USB2 socket ) or with a USB3 extension câble or a self powered remote hub.
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I think that, because the hardware not change, any new firmware create a new factory settings. Upgrade means to change the software, the data base and correct te bugs, otherwise don't have sense. Example, in one of the upgrading it was been inserted the option Panasonic table, means that, the .init file create after the upgrading, at the first new calibration, contain the factory data for Panasonic also, and if it is imported the old .init file (done before the upgrading) this don't have factory data for Panasonic. So I think that any firmware upgrading change the old factory default values and create a new factory status. In any case I can state that in my case when I have installed the firmware 3.10 a new .init file has been created.
No new INIT files are created when doing a firmware update. Even when the Panasonic profiles were added there was no new INIT file involved.
Keep in mind that there are no individual "base calibration tables" for each profile. Different profiles share a common base calibration, for the same lamp power, P3 filter, iris configuration.
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For those who say they got more than 1 INIT file, what is the filename exactly?
I don’t think you are getting an INIT file.
The file created on the first autocal is very different than the ones created in subsequent autocals.
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I guess the subsequent INIT files are the complete projector memory slots ( that is 12 slots for possible gamma combinations and 16 for the various possible color combinations ), whereas the SAVE of a regular autocal run only saves one for gamma and one for color according to your choices for that run.
EDIT: Well not really sure about that ..... I do not know what is inside the very first INIT file and have not yet seen a subsequent INIT file ..... If anybody has a better explanation ?
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There are no “subsequent INIT files”. If Autocal thinks it’s doing the first calibration (due to new computer, new folder, etc) it will create the INIT file. We had the discussion 7 months ago on the other forum.
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There are no “subsequent INIT files”. If Autocal thinks it’s doing the first calibration (due to new computer, new folder, etc) it will create the INIT file. We had the discussion 7 months ago on the other forum.
Yes true ... but it was also said then that when it does not find the original init file on your computer it creates a new "init" file, how does it call that new file then ?
This new file is what I meant by subsequent INIT file
EDIT: Removed that sentence as JVC says that the original INIT cannot be re-created and should be saved. So question what are thos "init" files re-created then ?
Should be easy to find out, next time I do an autocal I will save the original init file somewhere else and we'll see what happens 8)
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Yes true ... but it was also said then that when it does not find the original init file on your computer it creates a new "init" file, how does it call that new file then ?
This new file is what I meant by subsequent INIT file
EDIT: Removed that sentence as JVC says that the original INIT cannot be re-created and should be saved. So question what are thos "init" files re-created then ?
What I meant by “there are no subsequent INIT files”, is that the software creates only one “kind” of INIT file; i.e. the software doesn’t treat the “new” INIT file any differently than the first, since the it doesn’t even know it’s not the first.
If you did not save the original INIT file its contents cannot be re-created; the “new” INIT file contains the calibration data in the projector prior to that session of autocal, but that data does not represent the factory calibration.
In all cases the file name is SN-Init-YYYY-MMDD-hmm.cbd.
Note that Autocal also saves calibration logs in the Windows Userdata folder, so you may also need to clean up that folder if you want to fool the software into creating the INIT file.
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What I meant by “there are no subsequent INIT files”, is that the software creates only one “kind” of INIT file; i.e. the software doesn’t treat the “new” INIT file any differently than the first, since the it doesn’t even know it’s not the first.
If you did not save the original INIT file its contents cannot be re-created; the “new” INIT file contains the calibration data in the projector prior to that session of autocal, but that data does not represent the factory calibration.
In all cases the file name is SN-Init-YYYY-MMDD-hmm.cbd.
Well that's about what has always been said, including me, and that is specifically warned by JVC : the real init file cannot be re-created and should be saved.
But then why does autocal re-created a file named init if it is not an init file ? Bug ?
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Well that's about what has always been said, including me, and that is specifically warned by JVC : the real init file cannot be re-created and should be saved.
But then why does autocal re-created a file named init if it is not an init file ? Bug ?
It you run Autocal using one computer and then run it on a different computer, you will get an INIT file on both computers. However, the actual contents of the two INIT files will be different. It’s the way Autocal works; I don’t consider that a “bug”.
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It you run Autocal using one computer and then run it on a different computer, you will get an INIT file on both computers. However, the actual contents of the two INIT files will be different. It’s the way Autocal works; I don’t consider that a “bug”.
Dominic, that's where we do not agree, for me the init file is relative to the projector, not the computer on which you run the program, that means there can only be one true init file pertaining to one projector.
If you sell the projector and the new owner runs autocal he will get a new init file maybe not even knowing that this new one is not "genuine".
I call this a bug, the projector should have a way ( a flag ? ) to remember that an autocal of it has been run already.
A simple fix would be to name any such file "global" instead of "init".
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I have a couple of questions, I cannot find my INIT file, can someone please detail an example of the file I should be looking for?
Also, I have now calibrated the N7 for everything but Frame Adapt, which I find a little strange, how can I be sure that the colour is accurate in Frame Adapt?
Thanks,
Ian.
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Dominic, that's where we do not agree, for me the init file is relative to the projector, not the computer on which you run the program, that means there can only be one true init file pertaining to one projector.
If you sell the projector and the new owner runs autocal he will get a new init file maybe not even knowing that this new one is not "genuine".
I call this a bug, the projector should have a way ( a flag ? ) to remember that an autocal of it has been run already.
A simple fix would be to name any such file "global" instead of "init".
Yeah I have calibrated the same NX projector on multiple computers before and only ever got the INIT file the first time on the first computer.
Upgrading firmwares or changing computers never produced another INIT file on subsequent autocal runs, only user mode backups for the mode I was in when I ran the autocal.
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I also have two INIT files, how do I ensure that at least one of them is the FULL init file?
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Maybe with the creation date and time embedded in the file name :
10440336_Init_2019-0817-0015.cbd = created the 17 August 2019 at 00:15
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Yeah I have calibrated the same NX projector on multiple computers before and only ever got the INIT file the first time on the first computer.
Upgrading firmwares or changing computers never produced another INIT file on subsequent autocal runs, only user mode backups for the mode I was in when I ran the autocal.
I have two INIT files for the same projector:
11440414_Init_2019-1120-1455.cbd
11440414_Init_2019-1213-0035.cbd
They are identical in size - 25280 bytes.
In the AppData folder I was able to find two corresponding logs:
11440414_HDR10_201911201455.clog (v11)
11440414_Natural_201912130035.clog (v12)
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I have two INIT files for the same projector:
11440414_Init_2019-1120-1455.cbd
11440414_Init_2019-1213-0035.cbd
They are identical in size - 25280 bytes.
In the AppData folder I was able to find two corresponding logs:
11440414_HDR10_201911201455.clog (v11)
11440414_Natural_201912130035.clog (v12)
There we have the proof that you can get more init files than the very initial init file ...
I'd say the oldest one ( date in the file name ) is probably the genuine init file ( that is IF at the creation time your PC had a good clock of course ).
They are all of the same file size, but if you open one ( you can with any text editor, just be careful not to save it ) you'll see that the genuine init file has a lot of blank spare space, whereas an actual autocal one has not.
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There we have the proof that you can get more init files than the very initial init file ...
There was never any doubt in my mind regarding this.
I'd say the oldest one ( date in the file name ) is probably the genuine init file.
It was previously used so I can’t be sure if the previous owner had never calibrated it.
They are all of the same file size, but if you open one ( you can with any text editor, just be careful not to save it ) you'll see that the genuine init file has a lot of blank spare space, whereas an actual autocal one has not.
As I stated previously, the two Init files have the same "appearance"; both zip to 4836 bytes, which gives an indication of the spaces contained in them. In comparison, one of my user-generated cbd file zip to 10941 bytes, starting from the same file size of 25280 bytes.
The bottom line, as I have been saying all along, is that it’s impossible to tell if an Init file truly contains factory calibration data, unless you're talking about someone renaming a user cbd file to Init. Not that it matters that much, as the factory calibration quickly loses its relevance once the panels start developing gamma droop and colour shift.
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Yeah as long as you have properly functioning calibration meters, you should always be able to get a better autocal result than the factory calibration.
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For those, who are still interested in using the i1 Display Pro for Autocal: the author of the original mod released a new version that follows a different approach. It uses ArgyllCMS in the background.
It can be downloaded from github:
https://github.com/scyomantion/FakeSensor
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For those, who are still interested in using the i1 Display Pro for Autocal: the author of the original mod released a new version that follows a different approach. It uses ArgyllCMS in the background.
It can be downloaded from github:
https://github.com/scyomantion/FakeSensor
Spyder 4?
But autocal 11 and 12 only use spyder 5 and X.
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It should also work as a replacement for Spyder 5.
The functions in the dll are identical.
Spyder X is a different matter with different function and file names.
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It should also work as a replacement for Spyder 5.
The functions in the dll are identical.
Spyder X is a different matter with different function and file names.
OK, but with which version of Autocal ?
The spyder 4 is only supported by autocal V6 for the X5000 / X7000 family.
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I'm not the author and just wanted to point out that there is a newer version.
I have not tested it with Autocal myself, but ran the i1test.exe that was part of the original mod. The new dll behaved like the old one.
(https://i.imgur.com/irRVQnt.png)
But since I wrote a dll for a different meter (intended to replace the Spyder 5 in Autocal 11) and a friend used it with Autocal 6 without a single change in the code, I suppose that it will be the same with this i1 Display Pro dll.
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So I take it this new dll is only to get rid of the x-rite driver, no change about using autocal.
I had the impression that he was re-writing something similar to autocal to avoid interfering with JVC policies ?
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Yes, this is mainly to avoid using the x-rite SDK.
I don't know if/when we will see something about the other project.
Here is a post from him in a german forum (in german ;))
http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?action=browseT&forum_id=94&thread=15592&postID=163#163
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Spyder 4?
But autocal 11 and 12 only use spyder 5 and X.
I tried it using i1D3 with Autocal 7 (for Spyder5 and RS500) and that works.
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Hi, I am new to this forum. I have read the post about the sensor detection problem with SpyderX. I am having the same issue now. I am using a MacBook Pro with Windows 10 running in Parallels Desktop. As it doesn't have a USB-A port I use a USB-C to USB-A adapter. I successfully calibrated my JVC NX5 projector once, but strange thing is since then I have been unable to detect the SpyderX sensor, it always prompt me "Sensor can not be detected. Check again". I have tried to switch to BootCamp to run Windows 10 but same issue. I accept that it is complicated to run Windows 10 on MacBook Pro, furthermore with a USB-C. However, it intrigues me that I was able to run it successfully once! There must be something missing since the first success, but I couldn't figure out what was that. Anyone who managed to solve the issue? Appreciate any advice.
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Hi, I am new to this forum. I have read the post about the sensor detection problem with SpyderX. I am having the same issue now. I am using a MacBook Pro with Windows 10 running in Parallels Desktop. As it doesn't have a USB-A port I use a USB-C to USB-A adapter. I successfully calibrated my JVC NX5 projector once, but strange thing is since then I have been unable to detect the SpyderX sensor, it always prompt me "Sensor can not be detected. Check again". I have tried to switch to BootCamp to run Windows 10 but same issue. I accept that it is complicated to run Windows 10 on MacBook Pro, furthermore with a USB-C. However, it intrigues me that I was able to run it successfully once! There must be something missing since the first success, but I couldn't figure out what was that. Anyone who managed to solve the issue? Appreciate any advice.
What version of autocal are you using ?
N5 with Spyder X requires Autocal V12
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What version of autocal are you using ?
N5 with Spyder X requires Autocal V12
Yes, I am using Autocal V12
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Yes, I am using Autocal V12
Autocal with the Spyder X does not require any dedicated driver as it uses the Windows generic usb one.
Plug in the spyder and check your windows device manager to see if it is there and without any yellow warning sign.
Also have you installed the Datacolor software that comes with the spyder ? If yes remove it.
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Autocal with the Spyder X does not require any dedicated driver as it uses the Windows generic usb one.
Plug in the spyder and check your windows device manager to see if it is there and without any yellow warning sign.
I can see the SpyderX in the Device Manager (no yellow exclamation mark), so it should be installed ok. And SpyderX Elite software can detect the sensor. I read that there may be some conflict with the SpyderX software so I have uninstalled it. In short, the sensor is detected by Windows 10 successfully, it is just the JVC Autocal that could not detect it.
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In the W10 device manager what is the driver associated to your spyder ?
Have you reloaded Windows and tried autocal since uninstalling Datacolor ?
With Datacolor installed windows may start a Datacolor background task that grabs the spyder so that autocal cannot use it.
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In the W10 device manager what is the driver associated to your spyder ?
Have you reloaded Windows and tried autocal since uninstalling Datacolor ?
With Datacolor installed windows may start a Datacolor background task that grabs the spyder so that autocal cannot use it.
It is winusb date 2016. I have deleted the VM and re-installed W10, I have also deleted the BootCamp and reinstalled W10, after which I omitted the SpyderX software, but still experienced the same problem. The strange thing was when I successfully ran it the first time, the SpyderX software was there, as I calibrated my monitor before moving on to projector. Now I am facing problem with or without SpyderX software.
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Winusb 2016 is the good driver.
But unfortunately no experience with macbooks with W10, but if it worked once it should work again ;)
Some thoughts just in case :
- re-install autocal ?
- Have you run another calibration software like HCFR or DisplayCal ?
- In the W10 device manager try to reload the spyder driver using the option to search in your computer then choose within a list of available drivers, is there a list of more than one driver ( like ArgyllCMS ) ?
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Winusb 2016 is the good driver.
But unfortunately no experience with macbooks with W10, but if it worked once it should work again ;)
Some thoughts just in case :
- re-install autocal ?
- Have you run another calibration software like HCFR or DisplayCal ?
- In the W10 device manager try to reload the spyder driver using the option to search in your computer then choose within a list of available drivers, is there a list of more than one driver ( like ArgyllCMS ) ?
No, I don't have HCFR or DisplayCal, is it good idea to download these? I have tried to manually install the driver with the win7usb in SpyderX folder before I uninstalled the software. All won't solve the issue. I agree with your suspicion that something is blocking or hijacking the sensor from Autocal, unfortunately I couldn't find out which. I have also borrowed an older MacBook Pro running W10, but with USB-A port and it worked well. So it could also be the conversion of USB-A to USB-C. But strange thing is SpyderX software can detect no problem in both W10 and MacOS.
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For what it's worth, this is my winusb with my SpyderX :
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For what it's worth, this is my winusb with my SpyderX :
Thanks jj, mine is almost the same, except my W10 is 10.0.19041.1. I have just wiped out my BootCamp and re-installed W10 but no success. Couldn't understand why it only ran once and then not detectable anymore.
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No more clues ..... just one, borrow a PC laptop 8)
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No more clues ..... just one, borrow a PC laptop 8)
Thanks JJ, I will continue to investigate and post if I have any success.
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As a reminder from my long ago pro time in software development and support we had a final memento when something stopped working and no issue in sight : what has changed hardware and software since last time it worked ? Then made a list and put back one step at a time till it worked again, usually we did find the cure ..... :P
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As a reminder from my long ago pro time in software development and support we had a final memento when something stopped working and no issue in sight : what has changed hardware and software since last time it worked ? Then made a list and put back one step at a time till it worked again, usually we did find the cure ..... :P
JJ, thanks for the good advice. Will try, but slim chance as I don’t remember changing anything, both software and hardware. It just refused to work after the first calibration, *sigh*
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As a reminder from my long ago pro time in software development and support we had a final memento when something stopped working and no issue in sight : what has changed hardware and software since last time it worked ? Then made a list and put back one step at a time till it worked again, usually we did find the cure ..... :P
Something interesting to post here. I took your advice and tried to remember all events from the beginning. I recollected that I have initially installed W10 Home on my VM in Parallels Desktop, I then re-installed W10 Pro, but as I wasn't familiar with PD, I installed from the setup.exe directly instead of using the menu in PD. That installed the W10 Pro alright but with screen resolution of 800x600 and no shared folders with Mac. That was the time I managed to run the JVC Autocal. So today I repeated the same steps and got to the 800x600 state of W10 Pro, and JVC Autocal ran successfully! However, when I changed the screen resolution to higher, it stopped working, even after I changed back to 800x600. Very weird behaviour.
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Why do you install Win10 pro ? it has network and policy intricacies that may be difficult to master if you haven't a fair good understanding of it, win10 Home is perfect for the general purpose home use of a PC including Autocal.
I am an old timer PC user since the very begining (even before it was called windows ... like IBM's DOS and OS/2) and for my home use and my family we all have W10 Home, the only thing I am missing is the remote desktop that I could use to help my daughter who is a long way away from home ....
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Why do you install Win10 pro ? it has network and policy intricacies that may be difficult to master if you haven't a fair good understanding of it, win10 Home is perfect for the general purpose home use of a PC including Autocal.
I am an old timer PC user since the very begining (even before it was called windows ... like IBM's DOS and OS/2) and for my home use and my family we all have W10 Home, the only thing I am missing is the remote desktop that I could use to help my daughter who is a long way away from home ....
I have a license key provided by my office, apparently it cannot be used to activate W10 Home, and I have to install W10 Pro to use the key. By the way, after working for 1 more time last night, the problem returns, and no way I can get it to work again. Guess I just have to give up on it. I believe there is some glitches in JVC Autocal that prevent it from recognising SpyderX via USB-C.
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True, you most probably have an enterprise volume key that cannot be used to qualify for a home use W10 Home :(.
But You can use your W10 Home for a while without registering ( one month if I remeber well ) that gives you time to do some more testing.
I am just thinking about a problem with USB-C that could be your case, PC with USB-C connectors have a lower output power capacity, it may be interesting to try with an externaly powered USB hub, especially if you need a long USB cable, not a lost investment as it is recommended to use such a remote powered hub anyway.
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True, you most probably have an enterprise volume key that cannot be used to qualify for a home use W10 Home :(.
But You can use your W10 Home for a while without registering ( one month if I remeber well ) that gives you time to do some more testing.
I am just thinking about a problem with USB-C that could be your case, PC with USB-C connectors have a lower output power capacity, it may be interesting to try with an externaly powered USB hub, especially if you need a long USB cable, not a lost investment as it is recommended to use such a remote powered hub anyway.
Thanks, any good powered hub that you can recommend? I notice most of the hubs are without power. Is 5V/1A powered hub good enough?
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No personal experience but a hub like this will do : USB 3 hub with PA (https://www.amazon.fr/Sabrent-commutateurs-dalimentation-individuels-HB-UM43/dp/B00TPMEOYM/ref=sr_1_9?__mk_fr_FR=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&dchild=1&keywords=powered%2Busb%2B3%2Bhub&qid=1600677990&quartzVehicle=72-828&replacementKeywords=powered%2Busb%2Bhub&rnid=1703605031&s=computers&sr=1-9&th=1) (with Power Adapter).
I haven't found any direct USB-C powered hub so you may have to insert a USB-C to USB 3 adapter like this : USB-C to USB 3 (https://www.amazon.fr/Rankie-Adaptateur-USB-C-vers-Type-C/dp/B01EL4PVFE/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_fr_FR=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&dchild=1&keywords=usb-c+to+usb+2.0&qid=1600677853&sr=8-11)
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No personal experience but a hub like this will do : USB 3 hub with PA (https://www.amazon.fr/Sabrent-commutateurs-dalimentation-individuels-HB-UM43/dp/B00TPMEOYM/ref=sr_1_9?__mk_fr_FR=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&dchild=1&keywords=powered%2Busb%2B3%2Bhub&qid=1600677990&quartzVehicle=72-828&replacementKeywords=powered%2Busb%2Bhub&rnid=1703605031&s=computers&sr=1-9&th=1) (with Power Adapter).
I haven't found any direct USB-C powered hub so you may have to insert a USB-C to USB 3 adapter like this : USB-C to USB 3 (https://www.amazon.fr/Rankie-Adaptateur-USB-C-vers-Type-C/dp/B01EL4PVFE/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_fr_FR=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&dchild=1&keywords=usb-c+to+usb+2.0&qid=1600677853&sr=8-11)
Tried with powered USB hub, still not working. I got 3rd success to connect to the sensor in the middle of trial, without changing any settings, but would not be able to repeat it. So it looks like it is a glitch in the software to recognise USB-C port, which is very unstable. I give up the intention for time being, until there is an update to the software. JJ, thanks for all the good advice.
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Too bad, but I'd rather blame windows and its 2006 generic driver, as USB-C was not invented then, also if you do some net searching you'll see that USB-C support is rather poor.
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I just spent the past few days reading this entire thread.
I'm new to this board, and don't know how to search this thread to find the amazon link someone posted for the selfie holder with a tripod mount to use with the EFI ES-2000 that I recently ordered on eBay (getting it in a few days).
Someone posted the photo of that phone mount recently but without the amazon link!
NEVERMIND - I found it. It's: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072KNBV21/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A11HC9SRN13WHM&psc=1
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Maybe I should introduce myself. I was led here from the forum at AFSforums about my RS1000. I've just finished reading this entire thread.
I installed my RS1000 last fall a few days after the 3.10 firmware came out, which I immediately installed.
I've never calibrated it or tweaked it at all except for creating a few installation modes for zoom settings - I use a painted wall with a 0.93 gain screen paint recipe called Cream & Sugar Ultra from HomeTheaterShack.com. I used that screen paint (and its predecessor recipe without the word ultra) happily for many years with an old 1080p Panasonic PT-AE2000 (since Blu-ray became the standard).
I completely rebuilt my basement bat cave last fall, and put my RS1000 15' 9" from the screen wall, with matte black ceiling and sidewalls up to my couch, halfway back from the screen. The floor is dark grey carpeting. The couch is a 6' wide dark brown cloth futon that seats four.
My projected 17:9 grid uses 11' 4" of wall between my front speakers and about 6' in height, starting an inch or so down from the ceiling, ending about two feet off the floor, leaving plenty of clearance over my center channel speaker.
The RS1000 is sitting on a black wire frame shelf pretty close to centered on the screen, so very little shift was needed. I have one installation mode for images 1.85:1 and wider, which uses Aspect:Zoom, and one for images 16:9 and 4:3, that uses Aspect:Auto. I don't have an anamorphic lens.
Since I'm projecting a fairly large image on a low gain screen, I've been running at high lamp with the iris at 0 and using the Auto DI in its factory default setting, both for SDR and HDR, and using Frame Adapt set to High for HDR.
I've always been happy with the image, but scheduled a calibration with ChadB for this past May when I would have had about 200 hours on the bulb. That got rescheduled to yesterday due to the pandemic - and then cancelled when JVC announced that its impending new firmware update with the Theater Optimizer would wipe out all calibration data a month and a half after my calibration. By the time they corrected that announcement, it was too late to reinstate my appointment!
So I'm going to try to do it myself. I have - but have never set up - a brand-new Spyder X, and will be getting a second-hand EFI ES-2000 in the next few days.
My intention is to use AutoCal 12 on my Win 10 Pro (version 1909) laptop with those meters, and to avoid light pollution during the calibration runs by using the MonitorOff freeware I found a while back to blank out the laptop's screen. How will I know that a calibration run is finished so I can turn the screen back on?
I've got about 260 hours on the RS-1000's bulb.
From the discussions here and at AVSforum I figure I only need to do one calibration of gamma and color, since I don't change anything but color space between SDR and HDR. My plan is to set it to HDR and run the Spyder X gamma first, copy the init file to my dropbox for safekeeping, and then do the EFI ES-2000 color run when I get it later this week.
By the way, since I do watch 3D films, using the JVC RF emitter, I'm a little confused by the disclaimer about 3D. Will those really be shown uncalibrated unless I get adventurous enough to try to do a manual calibration for 3D with other software, or will the calibration done for SDR also apply to them?
One hack that occurred to me would be to change the iris slightly - like using -1 for everything else but 0 for 3D - and do a second autocal for 3D with the lens of my 3D glasses over the Spyder and EFI ES-2000 sensors' windows!
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My intention is to use AutoCal 12 on my Win 10 Pro (version 1909) laptop with those meters, and to avoid light pollution by using the MonitorOff freeware I found a while back to blank out the laptop's screen during the calibration runs. How will I know that a calibration pass is finished so I can turn the screen back on?
Run it once without blanking the screen, and time how long it takes.
One hack that occurred to me would be to change the iris slightly - like using -1 for everything else but 0 for 3D - and do a second autocal for 3D with the lens of my 3D glasses over the Spyder and EFI ES-2000 sensors' windows!
That won't work. The attempted 3D calibration will simply overwrite the previous 2D calibration.
As others have mentioned, you cannot run autocal for 3D. I would be interested to see how you do it.
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Run it once without blanking the screen, and time how long it takes.
That won't work. The attempted 3D calibration will simply overwrite the previous 2D calibration.
As others have mentioned, you cannot run autocal for 3D. I would be interested to see how you do it.
So I'll run a Log Only gamma to see how long that takes and a Log Only color to time that one. Got it!
Wouldn't using a different iris setting for 3D - and calibrating at that iris setting - lead to a second, independent, calibration? That's why I thought of using Iris -1 for 2D (both SDR and HDR), and Iris 0 for 3D.
If I do only one calibration for everything, using Iris 0, wouldn't watching 3D at Iris 0 use that calibration, or does showing 3D automatically use the factory calibration?
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So I'll run a Log Only gamma to see how long that takes and a Log Only color to time that one. Got it!
There is no "Log Only gamma" or "Log Only color". The one "Log Only" measures both, but does not do any actual calibration; I wouldn’t worry about “light contamination” from the laptop screen when running Log Only.
Wouldn't using a different iris setting for calibration lead to a second, independent, calibration? That's why I thought of using Iris -1 for 2D (both SDR and HDR), and Iris 0 for 3D.
No, there are only 4 groups of iris settings for autocal; 0-3, 4-7, 8-11, 12-15. And the groups only differ in colour calibration, not gamma.
If I do only one calibration, using Iris 0, wouldn't watching 3D use that calibration, or does showing 3D automatically use the factory calibration?
AFAIK, the projector modulates the gamma in the 3D mode to compensate for the loss in brightness. Autocal would refuse to run when the input is in 3D; I would guess the "base calibration" is applied to 3D as well, but do not know for certain.
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There is no "Log Only gamma" or "Log Only color". The one "Log Only" measures both, but does not do any actual calibration.
No, there are only 4 groups of iris settings for autocal; 0-3, 4-7, 8-11, 12-15. And the groups only differ in colour calibration, not gamma.
AFAIK, the projector modulates the gamma in the 3D mode to compensate for the loss in brightness. Autocal would refuse to run when the input is in 3D; I would guess the "base calibration" is applied to 3D as well, but do not know for certain.
Can I switch meters during the Log Only, since I would be doing so for the actual calibration? I could then time each of them so I would know when to wake up the screen during the real calibration.
If the projector works from the result of a normal calibration and tweaks it itself for 3D that would be fine by me. My concern was the implication that it would ignore the calibration entirely when showing 3D.
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Can I switch meters during the Log Only, since I would be doing so for the actual calibration? I could then time each of them so I would know when to wake up the screen during the real calibration.
No, but you can run Log Only twice, once with each meter.
Log Only is 100% safe, so just run it yourself and things will get much clearer.
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I just reread the whole Basics section and one question popped out:
Post # 6 Recommended settings, says I can set the brightness by showing a black pattern and using the remote's Hide button to see if there's any visible change.
Where can I find a black pattern to do this?
Is one built into the RS1000?
I do have the Spears and Munsil disk, which I've never used. Is there one on that disk? (I also have the Avia DVD and the Digital Video Essentials Blu-ray that I used with my older generations of projectors and disk players. This isn't my first rodeo, but my first time dealing with HDR and calibration equipment more sophisticated than looking through a plastic filter. I've had a home theater since about 2002.)
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The hide button is not the best way to do it as it takes several seconds to swith back and forth and allows your eyes to accomodate, instead use the mask facility, make it to the max on all 4 sides, this will give you the surrounding maximum black the projector can produce and real time compare to the remaining 0 IRE (black) image remaining in the center and with iris on manual 0 adjust your luminosity, this will definitively fix your black level, no need to go further it won't get blacker.
Attached is a 3840x2160 true black picture ( all digital zeroes )
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The hide button is not the best way to do it as it takes several seconds to swith back and forth and allows your eyes to accomodate, instead use the mask facility, make it to the max on all 4 sides, this will give you the surrounding maximum black the projector can produce and real time compare to the remaining 0 IRE (black) image remaining in the center and with iris on manual 0 adjust your luminosity, this will definitively fix your black level, no need to go further it won't get blacker.
Attached is a 3840x2160 true black picture ( all digital zeroes )
I've downloaded that image. Thank you for it. I gather (from the projector's manual) that I use my Installation Mode that's set for Aspect:Auto and turn on the Masking on that mode's menu so I can compare it to the darkness of the surrounding mask.
I then select the Frame Adapt Picture Mode and HDR Color Profile and on that screen I can access the Brightness control. (Should I do this in the BT.709 Color Profile first?)
Once I've chosen my preferred brightness setting for a Color Profile is that applied globally wherever that Color Profile is used?
But how do I get the image you sent me into the projector to display it?
PS Since Autocal doesn't touch either full black or full white, should I do something analogous to set the Contrast (white level) control?
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I've downloaded that image. Thank you for it. I gather (from the projector's manual) that I use my Installation Mode that's set for Aspect:Auto and turn on the Masking on that mode's menu so I can compare it to the darkness of the surrounding mask.
I then select the Frame Adapt Picture Mode and HDR Color Profile and on that screen I can access the Brightness control. (Should I do this in the BT.709 Color Profile first?)
Once I've chosen my preferred brightness setting for a Color Profile is that applied globally wherever that Color Profile is used?
But how do I get the image you sent me into the projector to display it?
PS Since Autocal doesn't touch either full black or full white, should I do something analogous to set the Contrast (white level) control?
Yes indeed, luminosity is "brightness" in english !
and it is set under the picture adjust main menu, I am not sure if it varies according to any other setting, projector black floor level is black floor level, I don't see whatever any SDR or HDR or Frame Adapt will change to that ?
But I will have to power on my projector to check it, never thought about it before :o
As per the picture I enclosed it is just that a picture in png format, copy it to a thumb drive and stick it into your mediaserver and display it, what else ?
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Yes indeed, luminosity is "brightness" in english !
and it is set under the picture adjust main menu, I am not sure if it varies according to any other setting, projector black floor level is black floor level, I don't see whatever any SDR or HDR or Frame Adapt will change to that ?
But I will have to power on my projector to check it, never thought about it before :o
As per the picture I enclosed it is just that a picture in png format, copy it to a thumb drive and stick it into your mediaserver and display it, what else ?
It looks like the easiest way to get that png onto the screen would be to bring it up on the PC that's connected to my AVR by HDMI inside any graphics program - whether Paint or IrfanView - in "full screen" mode.
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The Brightness control is unique to each Picture Mode, so you have to adjust that for every Picture Mode that you use.
The adjustment must be done with the black pattern displayed on the device you use to watch movies, so unless you use an HTPC there’s not much point in displaying it on a PC. Also, you should use a black pattern video file, not a still image. An SDR pattern is OK for that, as long as the projector is in the “correct” Picture Mode.
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The Brightness control is unique to each Picture Mode, so you have to adjust that for every Picture Mode that you use.
The adjustment must be done with the black pattern displayed on the device you use to watch movies, so unless you use an HTPC there’s not much point in displaying it on a PC.
1) It seems that under Picture Mode you have to select a color profile (BT.709, HDR, etc.) within which you set brightness, from my reading of the manual. I assume those apply to any mode that uses that color profile. Should I do this for BT.709 first, and then tweak it for HDR? (I'm using an RS-1000, which doesn't have BT.2020.)
2) I watch movies with an Oppo UDP-203 and a pair of 4K streamers, a 2019 nVidia Shield - the base model without a USB jack, and a 2019 Roku Ultra. All are plugged into my AVR, a Yamaha Aventage RX-A3070, the HDMI output of which goes to the JVC.
How would you suggest I get a black pattern on screen? Should I simply use the Spears & Munsil UHD disk's brightness adjustment screen, which has four vertical black bars on a black background, of which the left two bars are supposed to be invisible? (I did some reading just now in the PDF from their site about how to use the disk.)
It sounds like this could be set optimally for only one of my sources, and would be sub-optimal for the other two.
Since I'm happy with my image right now - and I don't see the black letterbox or pillarbox bars when watching a film - maybe I should just skip this step and go straight to AutoCal?
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1) It seems that under Picture Mode you have to select a color profile (BT.709, HDR, etc.) within which you set brightness, from my reading of the manual. I assume those apply to any mode that uses that color profile. Should I do this for BT.709 first, and then tweak it for HDR? (I'm using an RS-1000, which doesn't have BT.2020.)
If that's how the menu is structured then the Brightness setting must be associated with the profile (I don't have the NX-7 any longer). The settings are independent so it makes no difference which one you adjust first.
2) I watch movies with an Oppo UDP-203 and a pair of 4K streamers, a 2019 nVidia Shield - the base model without a USB jack, and a 2019 Roku Ultra. All are plugged into my AVR, a Yamaha Aventage RX-A3070, the HDMI output of which goes to the JVC.
How would you suggest I get a black pattern on screen? Should I simply use the Spears & Munsil UHD disk's brightness adjustment screen, which has four vertical black bars on a black background, of which the left two bars are supposed to be invisible? (I did some reading just now in the PDF from their site about how to use the disk.)
It sounds like this could be set optimally for only one of my sources, and would be sub-optimal for the other two.
It may not be "sub-optimal". In theory they all use the same range; it's only the PC that potentially can use a different range, especially when playing still images.
Since I'm happy with my image right now - and I don't see the black letterbox or pillarbox bars when watching a film - maybe I should just skip this step and go straight to AutoCal?
This discussion is quite off-topic, as the Brightness setting is ignored by AutoCal.
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. . .
This discussion is quite off-topic, as the Brightness setting is ignored by AutoCal.
The only reason I'm asking about this is that Post #6 here by Manni says to adjust the brightness before running AutoCal by putting a black pattern on screen and toggling Hide to see if there's any difference.
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The only reason I'm asking about this is that Post #6 here by Manni says to adjust the brightness before running AutoCal by putting a black pattern on screen and toggling Hide to see if there's any difference.
Can you point me to where Manni said that as it does not make sense to me as Autocal does not use user settings including Brightness and Contrast and that we are supposed to Reset them all before, I'd rather say check Brightness and Contrast AFTER running Autocal.
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Can you point me to where Manni said that as it does not make sense to me as Autocal does not use user settings including Brightness and Contrast and that we are supposed to Reset them all before, I'd rather say check Brightness and Contrast AFTER running Autocal.
It's "Reply #6" on page 2 of this thread (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10388#msg10388).
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It's "Reply #6" on page 2 of this thread (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10388#msg10388).
Well that's where he explains the hide procedure, but I haven't seen a mention that it should be done before autocal.I must be a bit tired tonight ...... or hungry or both :P
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Since I'm not seeing an elevated black level - I don't see letterbox bars - I'll just skip this and go straight to AutoCal.
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As Manni suggested, I'll be using remote control software to run my laptop with its lid closed (and thus its screen off) from another room during the actual calibration passes.
I run UltraVNC on my laptop (which adds file transfer capability to generic VNC when controlled by UltraVNC on another machine), and I'll be controlling it with Android bVNC PRO on my 10.1" wifi tablet. (I have the same app on my Android phone.)
Team Viewer is built on VNC - UltraVNC is freeware and bVNC PRO is dirt cheap - typical one-time less than $10 pricing at Google Play.
To avoid the problem of changing IP addresses for the host, I also use No-IP, which has you run a small app that frequently updates your account at their website with your host machine's current IP address. You point your remote control app at the name you create for that host at their website, which gets forwarded to the current IP address automatically. They have free and inexpensive multi-host subscriptions. I pay $25/year, and use it not only for remote control but also for remote access to my media using BubbleUPnP Server (also free) to make my DLNA/UPnP servers accessible across the net with the free Foobar2000 and fooUPnP and with Android BubbleUPnP ($5 at the Google Play Store) - which can also act as a control point over wifi to "cast" media to your players and as a relay between LANs over the net.
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Since I'm not seeing an elevated black level - I don't see letterbox bars - I'll just skip this and go straight to AutoCal.
That alone won't confirm that it was not set too low.
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That alone won't confirm that it was not set too low.
True, so I'll use the Spears & Munsil disk to set the Brightness for SDR and HDR before I run the Autocal, in the unlikely case it leads me to use different Iris settings than my current 0 for both, requiring two different color Autocals, though I think that's very unlikely, since I'm at a large size on a low gain screen and need all the light I can get, but better safe than sorry.
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You can still do what’s been suggested:
- set the projector’s vertical mask to the minimum width,
- play a 2.35:1 movie
- increase the Brightness so that the top/bottom black bars become clearly visible,
- gradually decrease the Brightness until the unmasked part of the black bar is indistinguishable from the masked area.
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I don't use masking, since my letterbox or pillarbox bars are nearly invisible, and I like variable aspect ratio films.
Instead, what I did today was use the Spears & Munsil UHD calibration disk's Brightness calibration pattern, which has a dark grey checkerboard pattern around the edges and in the center has a black field with four grey bars of different density, getting brighter from left to right, to adjust the brightness control so that the right-hand bar is clearly visible, the next one over is barely visible, and the other two are invisible.
I did that with the disk's SDR section to adjust the brightness for both Cinema and Natural and with its HDR10 section for HDR10 and Frame Adapt. I found that for both SDR settings, -7 worked for me, while for HDR no real tweak was needed.
I also tried toggling the Hide button and found that the central black area did not change in appearance when I did that.
I experimented in SDR with the disk's Contrast adjustment pattern but couldn't make heads or tails of it, so I left it at 0. (Spears & Munsil caution against adjusting anything but Brightness for HDR.)
No change was needed to the iris in either mode, so when I get my EFI ES-2000 tomorrow, I'll bring my laptop down to the theater and run Autocal.
I do have a pair of questions:
1) What's the essential difference between the Natural and Cinema settings in SDR, and
2) With respect to the Dynamic Iris, what's the difference between Auto 1 and Auto 2?
I realize those questions are beyond the scope of this thread, but there must be a common opinion about those. (Maybe I should ask at AVSforum instead - but I notice that a lot of the same folks participate in this thread and that one.)
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Much more on point:
I could have adjusted the black image for SDR not with the brightness control but with the manual iris.
Would that have made a meaningful difference other than requiring a separate color autocal for SDR?
Why shouldn't a different brightness control setting lead to the same need for a separate color Autocal as a different iris setting?
For that matter, when using the Dynamic Iris, how wide a range of Iris values is used by the DI? I'm getting the impression from my readings in this thread that the DI covers a range about four values wide. Should the color Autocal be run set to the widest manual iris setting in the range or one of the middle values of the range?
Hope I'm not opening up too big a can of worms with this post!
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I purchssed the spyderX and using the latest version of the Autocal software. First I ran in Natural picture mode, for SDR and am very happy with the results. Then I ran for HDR picture mode. Using HDR profile, HDR color space and PQ gamma, but I think the result is a little bit too over-saturated colors. Am I doing something wrong here with HDR calibration? I dont want to use any filters since I want all the brightness I can get.
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I don't use masking, since my letterbox or pillarbox bars are nearly invisible, and I like variable aspect ratio films.
The objective of the steps I described is to help set the black level (Brightness). It has nothing to do with whether you watch movies with masking.
I did that with the disk's SDR section to adjust the brightness for both Cinema and Natural and with its HDR10 section for HDR10 and Frame Adapt. I found that for both SDR settings, -7 worked for me, while for HDR no real tweak was needed.
That to me seems rather unusual.
I also tried toggling the Hide button and found that the central black area did not change in appearance when I did that.
That was the reason for using the "mask test" as an alternative, as no toggling is involved.
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Much more on point:
I could have adjusted the black image for SDR not with the brightness control but with the manual iris.
The main purpose of the manual iris is to reduce the white level (50 nits for SDR), with the side-benefit of improving the contrast ratio. It definitely should not be used to set Brightness.
Hope I'm not opening up too big a can of worms with this post!
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. . .
That to me seems rather unusual.
. . .
Unusual that so large an adjustment was needed for SDR or that SDR and HDR were so different in this respect?
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The main purpose of the manual iris is to reduce the white level (50 nits for SDR), with the side-benefit of improving the contrast ratio. It definitely should not be used to set Brightness.
Got it. Thanks!
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You can still do what’s been suggested:
- set the projector’s vertical mask to the minimum width,
- play a 2.35:1 movie
- increase the Brightness so that the top/bottom black bars become clearly visible,
- gradually decrease the Brightness until the unmasked part of the black bar is indistinguishable from the masked area.
Just realized that you're talking about the internal masking control in the projector, not physical masks on the screen. I'll try this.
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I purchssed the spyderX and using the latest version of the Autocal software. First I ran in Natural picture mode, for SDR and am very happy with the results. Then I ran for HDR picture mode. Using HDR profile, HDR color space and PQ gamma, but I think the result is a little bit too over-saturated colors. Am I doing something wrong here with HDR calibration? I dont want to use any filters since I want all the brightness I can get.
You used the SpyderX for color?
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You used the SpyderX for color?
Yes, and I know it says here dont use this for color calibration. But after seeing a SpyderX calibration on a RS2000 on Youtube, which showed pretty good results even for color, I wanted to give it a try. Of course I know this is not a "real" calibration but close and good enough, for me at least. And like I mentioned the SDR rec709 calibration turned out great. The colors fell into place and it looks real nice compared to factory calibration. Colors look dialed in, for HDR, but just a little bit too saturated for my liking.
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Yes, and I know it says here dont use this for color calibration. But after seeing a SpyderX calibration on a RS2000 on Youtube, which showed pretty good results even for color, I wanted to give it a try. Of course I know this is not a "real" calibration but close and good enough, for me at least. And like I mentioned the SDR rec709 calibration turned out great. The colors fell into place and it looks real nice compared to factory calibration. Colors look dialed in, for HDR, but just a little bit too saturated for my liking.
The issue is that the tolerances for the SpyderX's are all over the place. So in the YouTube video, that guy could have had a "golden sample," versus one that's off by a mile. Regardless, if you're happy with the results, that's all that matters.
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My used EFI ES-2000 (a/k/a X-Rite i1Pro Rev E, or i1Pro 2) arrived today, so I took my laptop down to my basement theater and settled in for the afternoon and evening.
First, I readjusted the brightness control for SDR and HDR using the method suggested by dcchan2 of putting on a scope film and turning on the projector's masking.
This let me adjust the brightness to where the letterbox bars became indistinguishable from the projector's masking.
I ended up setting the brightness for all modes back to 0 instead of the -7 I had arrived at with the Spears & Munsil Brightess calibration image.
Then I connected my laptop to my RS1000 via my LAN, plugging them both by ethernet into the same switch, using DHCP to assign an address to the RS1000, and copying that address into Autocal's settings page along with the projector's serial number. I also entered in the distance between the projector and the screen and the diagonal measurement of the screen, though those two measurements apparently aren't really necessary in a bat cave.
The Spyder X was recognized immediately without my consciously installing a driver for it. Trying to run a gamma calibration with it kept failing with the message that it had gotten unplugged, until I closed all my other programs and popped up the Windows 10 Task Manager to kill some background processes.
Then the gamma Autocal with the Spyder X ran without incident, including creating the init file. I had created an Autocal Calibrations folder on my desktop for Autocal to write into. When I was done with both calibrations I copied that whole folder into my dropbox for safekeeping.
Switched over to the EFI ES-2000 and was perplexed at first that it wasn't seen by Autocal, until I remembered about it needing a driver. Since I had read here that the i1Diagnostics program installs one, I ran that program, which I'd downloaded from X-Rite's website a few days ago. That installed the driver and lit up the probe's white "parenthesis" lights.
But Autocal still didn't see it - even sitting on its calibration tile - until I pressed the recessed button on the probe's left side.
Then I could run the color autocal, and the resulting white balance was very good, about 6450. The 2.2 gamma had a slight upward deviation in the middle, but I took it.
Due to all the tech problems, I ended up not using remote control because the lid of the laptop seemed to adequately block its screen's light from the probe. I'll use remote control next time - maybe that will flatten out the gamma curve. The color triangle, by the way, got larger and much closer to the ideal triangle than it was before calibration. Then I set the RS1000 back to Frame-by-Frame on High, with DI Auto 2 on that as well as for SDR.
Subjectively, I was impressed by the improved color rendition of the nature shots in the demo clips section of the Spears & Munsil UHD calibration disk. The improvement was subtle but real - the first thing I noticed was warm light browns on the horses in the snow. The flowers and lizards looked great, and the peacock feather looked great as well. Everything just looked real.
I have to say that the opening sequence on Nabiru in Star Trek Into Darkness is one of the most gobsmackingly beautiful UHD disks I own. Then I used its included standard Blu-ray to check out my SDR image after calibration and ended up switching from my usual Cinema to Natural from now on because that seemed more faithful to the UHD rendition.
I ended up using 2.2 gamma for SDR after flirting with 2.4, which seemed too compressed (as did Cinema for the color rendition). I'm using Auto 2 for the DI.
BTW - Into Darkness has one quirk that I don't get. It's the only UHD disk I have that comes up with dark and missing colors on the opening menu screen until I uplug and reinsert the HDMI cable from the back of my Oppo. This happens every time I play it! Maybe it looks so great because it runs at a higher bit rate than other films. All my HDMI cables are six foot "Certified" cables. Maybe I'll try polishing the outside of the HDMI plug and spraying contact cleaner into the jack and the end of the cable.
As far as cables go, I was able to make both probes work using a six-foot USB extension cord. (I used a USB 3.0 jack on the laptop, since those provide more current to devices than 2.0 jacks.)
I do want to thank everyone here for all the help!
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The 2.2 gamma had a slight upward deviation in the middle, but I took it.
If it looks like this, it simply means the gamma droop has been “cured”. The blue line represents the “Before” value.
(https://i.imgur.com/EIy9hc6.png)
The color triangle, by the way, got larger and much closer to the ideal triangle than it was before calibration.
How were you able to determine the “before” value?
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If it looks like this, it simply means the gamma droop has been “cured”. The blue line represents the “Before” value.
(https://i.imgur.com/EIy9hc6.png)
How were you able to determine the “before” value?
That is what the gamma looked like after calibration. Thanks for letting me know that it's correct, not thrown off by light from the laptop.
I guess I won't have to bother with remote control for Autocal.
The smaller "color gamut" triangle I saw before calibration was after the Log Only run with the Spyder X. Since that probe isn't reliable for color, I suppose that doesn't prove anything. Short of reloading the Init file and doing a Log Only pass with the EFI i1Pro 2, I suppose I'll never know.
I will say that before calibration, the Spears & Munsil close-up of a single peacock feather in the demo section looked rather dull and clinical, but after calibration its colors were much more vibrant.
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That is what the gamma looked like after calibration.
The white line is the After graph, blue line is Before. The difference may look small but before gamma calibration the RGB gamma graphs are often very different from one another, resulting in colour cast.
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The white line is the After graph, blue line is Before. The difference may look small but before gamma calibration the RGB gamma graphs are often very different from one another, resulting in colour cast.
I appreciate all your help!
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Is there a way to toggle between the calibrated and stock states of the projector to demo for my wife and friends the benefit of calibration? Could the init file be loaded into one of the user profiles?
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Is there a way to toggle between the calibrated and stock states of the projector to demo for my wife and friends the benefit of calibration? Could the init file be loaded into one of the user profiles?
Restoring the Init file will undo all the calibration you have done.
Each calibration affects a certain subset of settings (as discussed previously) so for A/B comparison you can toggle between a calibrated mode and an uncalibrated mode. However, there will be other differences not directly attributable to calibration.
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Is there a way to toggle between the calibrated and stock states of the projector to demo for my wife and friends the benefit of calibration? Could the init file be loaded into one of the user profiles?
As an example, I’ve calibrated high lamp, no filter, iris 0, so to compare before and after, I simply change the iris from -3 to -4 and that shows me after and before with no delay
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As an example, I’ve calibrated high lamp, no filter, iris 0, so to compare before and after, I simply change the iris from -3 to -4 and that shows me after and before with no delay
That would change the colour calibration but not the gamma calibration. The latter affects colour tracking.
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Would changing the iris from 0 to -1 turn off the calibration, or would I have to go all the way to -4?
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Would changing the iris from 0 to -1 turn off the calibration, or would I have to go all the way to -4?
As Dom mentioned what I am doing affects only color calibration...you would have to go to -4 with the iris. 0 to -3 is one table, -4 to -7 is another table...
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At least a -3 to -4 toggle wouldn't be as big a jump in brightness as from 0 to -4.
I suppose the alternative would be to use Autocal to load in, alternately, the init file and the most recent cbd file - but that would take too long to easily remember what things looked like between the two.
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Hello,
I wanted to know if the cromatic drifts with DI auto2 when the image goes from dark to light are corrected if we calibrate with Autocal all the iris positions -12, -8, -4 and 0?
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Hello,
I wanted to know if the cromatic drifts with DI auto2 when the image goes from dark to light are corrected if we calibrate with Autocal all the iris positions -12, -8, -4 and 0?
No.
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So wouldn't it make the most sense to calibrate for a middle value of the range, to avoid the maximum drift?
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The “chromatic drifts” of the automatic iris, caused by gamma manipulation, cannot be calibrated out.
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Figured out how to deal with the problem I had mentioned last week, where some UHD disks came up extremely dark until I re-seated the HDMI cable.
There's apparently an authoring quirk on some disks (the ones that do this tend to have similar-looking menu bars on the opening screen) that triggers a "video mute" problem when first inserted into my Oppo 203.
Since what re-seating the HDMI cable did was force a new HDMI handshake, I found I could accomplish the same thing by just picking up the remote for my AVR and switching to another source and back to my Oppo, bringing the image back to normal.
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Hi all! New to the game. Nx7,spyderx did gamma and color. The bt2020 is really grey and washed out. I’ve playing with this all week. Really need help. I have followed all the step by step instructions but no go. I want to reset the projector to factory but it looks
Like there is only 1 .ini file is this normal. Help please.
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Hi all! New to the game. Nx7,spyderx did gamma and color. The bt2020 is really grey and washed out. I’ve playing with this all week. Really need help. I have followed all the step by step instructions but no go. I want to reset the projector to factory but it looks
Like there is only 1 .ini file is this normal. Help please.
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Hi all! New to the game. Nx7,spyderx did gamma and color. The bt2020 is really grey and washed out. I’ve playing with this all week. Really need help. I have followed all the step by step instructions but no go. I want to reset the projector to factory but it looks
Like there is only 1 .ini file is this normal. Help please.
There should only be the one ini file. Have Autocal load it into the JVC and that'll undo the calibrations you did. (Copy the ini file to a safe place, like your Dropbox, as it's the only way to get back to the factory calibration if you need to.)
Then have the Spyder do just a gamma calibration and look on eBay for an i1Pro 2, an i1Pro Rev. E, or an EFI ES-2000, They are all the same device. You should be able to find one for $300 or so. (I got an EFI that way a week or so ago.) Make sure the listing says it comes with the calibration plate, which has a white tile under a slider, You have to sit the probe on that to do a quick self calibration before each use.
if you go to the X-Rite web site you can download the manual, which has a diagram showing what its accessories look like, and the i1Diagnostics program that will install the driver Autocal needs to use it.
Use that probe with Autocal to calibrate the color. Look back a few pages on this thread for a link for a $10 tripod cell phone selfie mount if the probe you get doesn't have a tripod mount.
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Thank you. I’m in Canada and hard to find X-Rite cheap. There is a place that sells X-Rite I’ve attached a photo. Please
Let me know if these will work?
Shawn
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Thank you. I’m in Canada and hard to find X-Rite cheap. There is a place that sells X-Rite I’ve attached a photo. Please
Let me know if these will work?
Shawn
Nope. Those are completely different items.
You have to search for i1Pro 2, i1Pro Rev. E, and EFI ES-2000, as separate searches, to find all the choices available.
As they are discontinued, you most likely will only be able to find them used, which means eBay. (New, this is an over$1,000 item. Used, you can find them for $300 or so.)
Don't you have access to eBay in Canada?
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Found a better way to A/B calibrated and uncalibrated, as long as you've only calibrated in one lamp setting (High or Low).
Instead of doing "the iris slide" in HDR10 mode with Manual Iris to get out of the calibrated range, which doesn't toggle the gamma calibration and gives you a watered-down image compared to Frame Adapt (because you don't have the projector's tone mapping in HDR10 mode):
Stay in Frame Adapt mode, with your favorite settings.
Click on Frame Adapt to get to the screen to configure Frame Adapt, and
Move down to and toggle the Lamp Level between High and Low. (The left and right arrow keys will let you do this easily, and you don't even have to reverse direction as each tap, in either direction, will toggle it to the other setting.)
If you've only calibrated in one lamp level setting, this will toggle both the gamma and the color calibrations on and off. Yes, there's a bit of a brightness difference between the two lamp settings - but not as much as I had expected. With my RS1000 (N5/NX5) I normally run in (and calibrated for) Lamp High, since I use a large 0.93 low gain screen at maximum zoom, but toggling to Lamp Low was only a little different in terms of average brightness. The difference in contrast and color was much greater, and this gives me an easy way to demo the benefits of calibration for a guest.
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h your favorite settings.
If you've only calibrated in one lamp level setting, this will toggle both the gamma and the color calibrations on and off. Yes, there's a bit of a brightness difference between the two lamp settings - but not as much as I had expected. With my RS1000 (N5/NX5) I normally run in (and calibrated for) Lamp High, since I use a large 0.93 low gain screen at maximum zoom, but toggling to Lamp Low was only a little different in terms of average brightness. The difference in contrast and color was much greater, and this gives me an easy way to demo the benefits of calibration for a guest.
When A/B testing speakers, one fundamental requirement is to equalize the SPLs of the speakers being compared, as the loudness has a profound influence on the assessment of other sound characteristics.
Similar consideration applies when comparing projected pictures - a difference of 40% in brightness (between high and low lamp) will have a major influence on the assessment of the “picture quality”. Not only that, even when both are in their default factory settings, there are significant differences between high and low lamp (gamut, colour temp, etc), so you would be seeing many other differences in your way of comparison, not attributable to the Before/After calibration.
EDIT: Another major consideration is the image stability when toggling the lamp power. JVC recommends waiting for 30 minutes after power up before calibration. IIRC, if you change the lamp power while running autocal, a message pops up on screen saying you should wait for 30 minutes again. That’s another reason toggling lamp power does not provide an accurate comparison, even if both lamp settings have been calibrated.
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Omg. A little confusing but I’ll work through it. All your insight is super helpful. I really appreciate it. Wondering if you could walk me through a step by step?
Shawn
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I'm in a living-room setup, so white walls.
I have a NX7, projecting to a Stewart GrayHawk RS G4, Gain 0.9, width 3,0m (118"), Aspect Ratio 2,4:1.
Now I got a 350€ i1pro2 off ebay and an new Spyder X Pro to get the job done right - they should arrive this week.
After days of reading, I read all the guides and manuals, I still have some questions, I hope you can help me with that:
a) I'm using the lens zoom to zoom to the 2,4:1 picture for movies and leave it to 16:9 for series. When doing the calibration, should I use my 2,4:1 preset, or leave it to 16:9?
b) Manni stated that he set the iris to -12 for REC-709 calibration. Why is it -12? From what I understand is that he's aiming for a certain fl / lux in SDR-Mode. Which fl / lux value should I be aiming for? Will the spyder or ipro / JVC Calibrationsoftware gibe this fl/lux value or do I need a meter for this?
c) Is the Spyder X Pro facing the screen for doing Gamma?
d) There seems to be not many users who did the environment setting. As I'm in a living room, this seems to be a good idea. Is this done AFTER Gamma + Color or before?
e) It has been stated to do gamma first, then color and vice versa. Which is the best / correct way to do them?
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The Spyder X, like the i1Pro 2, reads off the screen, not the lens.
Lens zoom and cropping have no direct effect on calibration.
The calibration is only directly affected by:
1) Lamp power (low versus high),
2) Maximum iris opening (set in Manual and calibrated that way - you can turn on Dynamic Iris afterwards)
and
3) Use or not of the Wide Gamut Color filter
Use of different lens magnification and cropping for different aspect ratios might lead you to vary one of the above, in which case a separate calibration would be needed, but if you leave the three numbered factors fixed, you only need to do one gamma+color calibration.
It is customary to calibrate gamma first.
Be sure to copy the first calibration backup file, which will have the letters "ini" in the filename, into a very safe place, as it is the only way to restore the projector to factory calibration, by having Autocal reload that file into the projector. The menu option in the projector to restore defaults does not restore the calibration tables, just the menu settings.
As I have no windows, grey carpet, and matte black walls and ceiling in the front half of my room, I didn't use the environment routine - someone else will have to advise you about that - and about fl / lux, which I know nothing about.
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I'm in a living-room setup, so white walls.
I have a NX7, projecting to a Stewart GrayHawk RS G4, Gain 0.9, width 3,0m (118"), Aspect Ratio 2,4:1.
Now I got a 350€ i1pro2 off ebay and an new Spyder X Pro to get the job done right - they should arrive this week.
After days of reading, I read all the guides and manuals, I still have some questions, I hope you can help me with that:
b) Manni stated that he set the iris to -12 for REC-709 calibration. Why is it -12? From what I understand is that he's aiming for a certain fl / lux in SDR-Mode. Which fl / lux value should I be aiming for? Will the spyder or ipro / JVC Calibrationsoftware gibe this fl/lux value or do I need a meter for this?
Many projector owners with bat-caves prefer peak white of 60 NITS for movie watching.
Well, I don't 😊
I have good light control, but my room is not a bat-cave and I also like to watch movies, series and sports with some ambient light, so for SDR/Rec.709 I use iris fully open in low lamp. And for HDR my iris is also fully open but in high lamp (and filter OFF).
I like it bright👀
Disclaimer: I have the JVC X7900, but waiting for a N7.
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Should I reset all constrast/brightness/etc settings before I run a new Gamma/Color calibration? I assume they wouldn't be valid after the calibration anyway.
Thanks
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Its somewhere in the Guide that you should. I am gonna Screenshot All Setting and reset them.
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Autocal by itself will not use any manual user settings while running the calibration process, but will add them to its new base when doing the second Logs only run, thus the Logs will not show the actual projector settings and may be misleading.
You can run an actual autocal having removed the manual settings, screen copy the logs, then do a new Logs only run after re-installing your manual settings and compare the two Logs outputs.
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I did my first autocal. Can some give some thoughts on what I'm seeing? Gamma seems clear to my, the colors not so much.
Gamma, natural, no filter, low lamp, no iris:
(https://s12.directupload.net/images/201016/bqqxkovs.png)
My thoughts: I expected this kind of drift, have seen it in this topic some times, I saved the result.
Gamma, HDR, with filter, low lamp, no iris:
(https://s12.directupload.net/images/201016/jnc5vzkq.png)
Seems normal to me? I saved.
Color with i1Pro2, REC709, no filter, low lamp, no iris:
(https://s12.directupload.net/images/201016/m3xegkw6.png)
I dont really understand this. There seems to be no deviation, the light blue line seems so small?
My eye saw before cal too much red, I had red gain set to -10. After the cal I'm fine with 0.
Shouldnt I see soe of that -10 in here?
And why is the pink line different from white?
ColorTemp with i1Pro2, REC709, no filter, low lamp, no iris:
(https://s12.directupload.net/images/201016/gitdca2k.png)
What does this tell me?
After that, I swithed the color profile, reading this topic, I understand thiswas not needed as the color profile doesnt matter when doing color auto cal?!
Anyway:
Color with i1Pro2, HDR, no filter, low lamp, no iris:
(https://s12.directupload.net/images/201016/sm9mgctw.png)
ColorTemp:
(https://s12.directupload.net/images/201016/ez5eiz8g.png)
I really dont understand this too :-x
Color with i1Pro2, BT2020, with filter, low lamp, no iris:
(https://s12.directupload.net/images/201016/g2ul5pob.png)
ColorTemp:
(https://s12.directupload.net/images/201016/o7u3qeyi.png)
The Color and ColorTemp pictures don't tell me much, can anyone help? :)
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I did my first autocal. Can some give some thoughts on what I'm seeing? Gamma seems clear to my, the colors not so much.
Color with i1Pro2, REC709, no filter, low lamp, no iris:
(https://s12.directupload.net/images/201016/m3xegkw6.png)
I dont really understand this. There seems to be no deviation, the light blue line seems so small?
My eye saw before cal too much red, I had red gain set to -10. After the cal I'm fine with 0.
Shouldnt I see soe of that -10 in here?
Setting the red gain to -10 affects the Color Temp. You won't see much change in the CIE diagram.
And why is the pink line different from white?
On many JVCs the gamut is slightly short of Rec.709 in the green colour. Just create a custom Rec.709F (with the colour filter).
ColorTemp with i1Pro2, REC709, no filter, low lamp, no iris:
(https://s12.directupload.net/images/201016/gitdca2k.png)
What does this tell me?
The "dots" within the red circle show you how close the greyscale is to D65, at 12.5, 25... 87.5, 100%. If they're tracking perfectly you will only see a single dot.
After that, I swithed the color profile, reading this topic, I understand thiswas not needed as the color profile doesnt matter when doing color auto cal?!
This is not entirely true. Colour Profile directly determines whether the colour filter is in or out, and the colour gamut of the selected profile is also displayed in the log. "It doesn't matter" only in the sense that two colour profiles which have the same filter setting, share the same calibration, so in this particular case the second calibration overwrote the first as all relevant settings (lamp power, filter, iris) are the same.
Anyway:
Color with i1Pro2, HDR, no filter, low lamp, no iris:
(https://s12.directupload.net/images/201016/sm9mgctw.png)
I really dont understand this too :-x
This confirms that even the HDR profile, even though it's "wide gamut", is short of the Rec.709 in the green colour.
Color with i1Pro2, BT2020, with filter, low lamp, no iris:
(https://s12.directupload.net/images/201016/g2ul5pob.png)
This shows how much the filter improves the gamut, especially in the green.
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does anyone have an old spyder5 they would be willing to sell or let me borrow? i cant find one for my rs600
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@dcchan2: Thanks for the feedback.
What I noticed is a decrease in brightness after autocal - this was caused by the color autocal,right?
My eye doesn't see "better" colors, so I'm not too happy right now.
Is there a way to influence autocal to go for more brightness?
If there isn't (at least with my level of knowledge), the only way for me would be to restore the ini and just do the Gamma-cal, right?
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@dcchan2: Thanks for the feedback.
What I noticed is a decrease in brightness after autocal - this was caused by the color autocal,right?
My eye doesn't see "better" colors, so I'm not too happy right now.
Is there a way to influence autocal to go for more brightness?
If there isn't (at least with my level of knowledge), the only way for me would be to restore the ini and just do the Gamma-cal, right?
Gamma droop raises the midrange luminance, so running gamma autocal (which eliminates the gamma droop) will make the midrange darker. Colour autocal may make the peak luminance lower, when bringing the white closer to D65. If you switch to HighBright (even after autocal) it gives you the brightest picture (but not close to D65).
If you watch autocal run it actually displays the luminance at each greyscale level, before and after calibration, but unfortunately the log does not capture those values.
If you had separate gamma and colour autocal runs, you can back up to to any specific run. Restoring the Init file will bring you back to the state before you run any autocal.
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Thanks again.
In an other forum manni stated that setting the sceen size bigger than 60“ will cause brightness loss, this was autocal v5/6 though.
Is this still the case? Or are there any other things i could optimize?
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You can check if Autocal is causing the loss of brightness. See this previous post:
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg16408#msg16408
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Thanks again.
In an other forum manni stated that setting the sceen size bigger than 60“ will cause brightness loss, this was autocal v5/6 though.
Is this still the case? Or are there any other things i could optimize?
I have always ahead my autocal set to the correct screen size.
For me that’s 140”.
Autocal actually increases the brightness of most of the NX projectors that I have run it on, and especially NX5. 3 out of 3 NX5 that I have run autocal on with my i1 Pro 2 got brighter peak white with autocal.
Autocal was somehow able to raise red a lot and blue a little, rather than lower green, which is not possible to do manually via the gain controls.
It’s possible it could make it dimmer, but setting the screen size large certainly doesn’t cause that.
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Autocal actually increases the brightness of most of the NX projectors that I have run it on, and especially NX5. 3 out of 3 NX5 that I have run autocal on with my i1 Pro 2 got brighter peak white with autocal.
Autocal was somehow able to raise red a lot and blue a little, rather than lower green, which is not possible to do manually via the gain controls.
I don’t believe Autocal can raise the RGB levels beyond what HighBright shows.
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I don’t believe Autocal can raise the RGB levels beyond what HighBright shows.
No, of course not.
But it can raise them compared to the stock color profiles.
For example, stock rec709 color profile:
https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5_2020/stock709.pdf
If I were to calibrate that manually, I would have to lower green and blue to meet red with the RGB gains. (since by default they are at their max adjustment values in the RGB gain control)
This would lower the peak white considerably.
But autocal results in this:
https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5_2020/cal709.pdf
It's able to create a new rec709 color profile carved out from measurements taken in high bright mode, and it results in a balanced D65 that's a little brighter than the stock color profile was.
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But it can raise them compared to the stock color profiles.
My point was that one can predict whether one can potentially benefit from Colour Autocal, by looking at HighBright.
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I tried high bright today. Oh boy, this looks off quite bad and is just barely brighter. I went back to a calibrated profile asap.
The biggest difference i noticed is Gamma: black is black now, before it was grey.
I am happy now :)
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I tried high bright today. Oh boy, this looks off quite bad and is just barely brighter. I went back to a calibrated profile asap.
The biggest difference i noticed is Gamma: black is black now, before it was grey.
I am happy now :)
You can’t use HighBright “raw”; you need to bring down the green (and red/blue) to give you D65.
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I tried to get it as good as possible (green gain -25 or so) but still, the increse in brightness compared to the colors not matching perfectly, is absolutely not worth it.
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A previous post said that brightness has been lost after Autocal:
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg18491#msg18491
If after Autocal the peak white is as bright as the “adjusted HighBright” (adjusted using a meter to produce D65), then it simply means Autocal has not caused any loss in brightness, since HighBright is not affected by Autocal.
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg18494#msg18494
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Is there a faster wear of the lcd panels with use in MaxBright and RGB gain at max. or calibrated with a brighter white than D65, for example D70-D75? in summary, does the wear of the panels depend on the brightness injected above? or, does it not wear out?
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Is there a faster wear of the lcd panels with use in MaxBright and RGB gain at max. or calibrated with a brighter white than D65, for example D70-D75? in summary, does the wear of the panels depend on the brightness injected above? or, does it not wear out?
No, HighBright and Maximum Gains are not power boosts that put additional stress on the projector components. They simply allow the “native” light from the bulb to pass through with minimum correction.
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I figure its most appropiate to post about Autocal stuff here vs the other thread, so I'll repost my HDR calibration for Gamma and now the calibration for Color as well (using the i1Pro).
If these look off, let me know what I should try in order to fix it. I'm hoping its close now :)
Here is Gamma using the SpyderX:
(https://i.imgur.com/4WATHuW.png)
And then the Color Charts after calibration using the i1Pro:
(https://i.imgur.com/dZFPwXr.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/t50OjMj.png)
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Thanks for all your work on this Manni! I wanted to ask for a few questions for clarification and perhaps some suggestions for the guide, especially for calibration noobs like myself :D
1. For the sensor placement, do you center it perfectly on the screen an point it directly at its own shadow? Or do you angle it up slightly? (If so, how much is sufficient and how do you know when it is not correct?) See attached photo for how I interpreted the directions (wrongly, I believe, as I had it off to the left pointing towards the center of the screen at a 45 degree angle.).
2. For calibration, I saw SirMaster had mentioned he calibrated using the following picture modes:
User1 (HDR color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, low bulb)
User2 (HDR color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, high bulb)
User3 (rec709 color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, low bulb)
User4 (rec709 color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, high bulb)
If one does Gamma (SpyderX) + Color (i1Pro) on each of these 4 modes (8 total calibrations), does that cover all the existing factory modes as well? If so, is it worth specifically telling people to create these profiles in the basic guide, assuming that advanced users will know if they need it or not. Knowing the minimum viable picture mode settings to use for calibration at the outset would greatly simplify things in my view (I had to poke around to figure out what others used).
This is fantastic work and I'd never have even considered doing calibration myself if you hadn't spent the immense amount of time and love on this documentation.
(https://i.imgur.com/32Sd5Wx.jpg)
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Thanks for all your work on this Manni! I wanted to ask for a few questions for clarification and perhaps some suggestions for the guide, especially for calibration noobs like myself :D
1. For the sensor placement, do you center it perfectly on the screen an point it directly at its own shadow? Or do you angle it up slightly? (If so, how much is sufficient and how do you know when it is not correct?) See attached photo for how I interpreted the directions (wrongly, I believe, as I had it off to the left pointing towards the center of the screen at a 45 degree angle.).
2. For calibration, I saw SirMaster had mentioned he calibrated using the following picture modes:
User1 (HDR color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, low bulb)
User2 (HDR color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, high bulb)
User3 (rec709 color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, low bulb)
User4 (rec709 color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, high bulb)
If one does Gamma (SpyderX) + Color (i1Pro) on each of these 4 modes (8 total calibrations), does that cover all the existing factory modes as well? If so, is it worth specifically telling people to create these profiles in the basic guide, assuming that advanced users will know if they need it or not. Knowing the minimum viable picture mode settings to use for calibration at the outset would greatly simplify things in my view (I had to poke around to figure out what others used).
This is fantastic work and I'd never have even considered doing calibration myself if you hadn't spent the immense amount of time and love on this documentation.
(https://i.imgur.com/32Sd5Wx.jpg)
it looks like you should move the meter at least a little farther away and angle it up a bit more.
You don’t want it reading it’s shadow.
Also I don’t have anything like those 4 user modes for calibration.
In fact, 2 of those modes would lead to a redundant calibration since the “HDR” color profile means the wide color filter is off (if you are using an NX7/9).
If you wanted to calibrate an NX7/9 more throughly you would perpahs run 4 autocal like you wrote, but you would use BT.2020 color profile rather than HDR profile as this would engage the filter.
However, you should only calibrate the modes you actually use which might be low bulb for SDR and high bulb for HDR.
So your SDR calibration might look like: User1, D6500, rec709, 2.2 gamma, low bulb.
And your HDR calibration might like like: User2, D6500, BT.2020, 2.2 gamma, high bulb.
You might also use a different bulb mode for each calibration, or you might use HDR color profile in place of BT.2020 (if you don’t want to use the wide color profile, or have an NX5)
You might also close down your manual iris to something other than position 0.
But you likely only need 2 autocal runs each with the projector in a user mode that encompasses your settings for SDR and then the other for HDR settings that will be used with Frame Adapt HDR mode.
Thought it also sounds like JVC is going for to somehow support a more direct Frame Adapt HDR autocal calibration with the new firmware update and autocal update mid to late November. So this information could change.
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it looks like you should move the meter at least a little farther away and angle it up a bit more.
You don’t want it reading it’s shadow.
Also I don’t have anything like those 4 user modes for calibration.
In fact, 2 of those modes would lead to a redundant calibration since the “HDR” color profile means the wide color filter is off (if you are using an NX7/9).
If you wanted to calibrate an NX7/9 more throughly you would perpahs run 4 autocal like you wrote, but you would use BT.2020 color profile rather than HDR profile as this would engage the filter.
However, you should only calibrate the modes you actually use which might be low bulb for SDR and high bulb for HDR.
So your SDR calibration might look like: User1, D6500, rec709, 2.2 gamma, low bulb.
And your HDR calibration might like like: User2, D6500, BT.2020, 2.2 gamma, high bulb.
You might also use a different bulb mode for each calibration, or you might use HDR color profile in place of BT.2020 (if you don’t want to use the wide color profile, or have an NX5)
You might also close down your manual iris to something other than position 0.
But you likely only need 2 autocal runs each with the projector in a user mode that encompasses your settings for SDR and then the other for HDR settings that will be used with Frame Adapt HDR mode.
Thought it also sounds like JVC is going for to somehow support a more direct Frame Adapt HDR autocal calibration with the new firmware update and autocal update mid to late November. So this information could change.
Thanks for the notes. I got the user mode stuff from this post: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg11565#msg11565
I'm on a NX5/RS1000, Silver Ticket 120" 1.1 gain, light controlled room (blacked out basement, only flaw is lighter carpet)
As for Low vs High lamp, I noticed on high lamp post-calibration that dark scenes in 1917 were super washed out/gray instead of black, but switching to low lamp, they had much much better contrast and deeper blacks. Will I lose a ton of color in low lamp post-calibration? I was planning on calibrating low lamp as well.
Also note, in that picture, it is off center (to the left) and then pointed towards the center of the screen at a 45 degree angle. I'll redo calibration with it dead center, but angled up a little bit instead.
Thanks again!
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I have an i1DisplayPro meter (EODIS3) and I've heard that by using the "fakesensor" dll found here:
https://github.com/scyomantion/FakeSensor
that you can have this meter work with JVC autocal software.
I've tried to follow the instructions at that link after downloading the files for it, but some are not accurate and I get lost.
For example, while I can find and backup dccmtr.dll in the JVC folder, I can't find the same name dll from this project to replace it with. Instead, there are files of the same name but without .dll suffix.
Any help or more exact instructions would be great!
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I have an i1DisplayPro meter (EODIS3) and I've heard that by using the "fakesensor" dll found here:
https://github.com/scyomantion/FakeSensor
that you can have this meter work with JVC autocal software.
I've tried to follow the instructions at that link after downloading the files for it, but some are not accurate and I get lost.
For example, while I can find and backup dccmtr.dll in the JVC folder, I can't find the same name dll from this project to replace it with. Instead, there are files of the same name but without .dll suffix.
Any help or more exact instructions would be great!
You must download the FakeSensor-Win32-v0.1.1.zip package, unzip it into the JVC folder and read the Readme.md that gives the installation instructions.
But you also have to download and install the ArgyllCMS package.
This version of the hack allows to use all the sensors supported by ArgyllCMS but is a bit more complicated to install than the first version that was for the i1 Display Pro only but it was self-contained and straight forward.
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You must download the FakeSensor-Win32-v0.1.1.zip package, unzip it into the JVC folder and read the Readme.md that gives the installation instructions.
But you also have to download and install the ArgyllCMS package.
This version of the hack allows to use all the sensors supported by ArgyllCMS but is a bit more complicated to install than the first version that was for the i1 Display Pro only but it was self-contained and straight forward.
Ok, had tried that but will try again.
However, I believe I have another issue now: my i1displaypro (EODIS3) is no longer recognized in Windows. Device Manager shows "device descriptor request failed" error beside it in the USB section.
I also get this same error across several Windows laptops and one macos one (doesn't recognize USB device).
This is after reinstalling i1profiler several times and within that program trying to reset device. can never recognize the eodis3 anymore.
It's several years old, and whiel it worked for a while, I had cracked the case screwing it on too tight to a tripod a year back or so.
Do you think I should just replace it with another?
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Ok, had tried that but will try again.
However, I believe I have another issue now: my i1displaypro (EODIS3) is no longer recognized in Windows. Device Manager shows "device descriptor request failed" error beside it in the USB section.
Do you think I should just replace it with another?
I am afraid that is a definitive statement .... probably time to direct it to the dust bin :'(
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This version of the hack allows to use all the sensors supported by ArgyllCMS but is a bit more complicated to install than the first version that was for the i1 Display Pro only but it was self-contained and straight forward.
The first version requires the x-rite software so that has to be installed. For this same reason, it only works with the retail version of i1D3, not the OEM version.
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My auto cal says error in detecting model. I am using spyder5 how do I fix this.
Thanks
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My auto cal says error in detecting model. I am using spyder5 how do I fix this.
Thanks
Which projector do you have? Are you using v11?
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I can connect the CPU to the PJ
But when I hit calibrate I get that error measage
Yes software 11 v 1.2
Rs600
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I can connect the CPU to the PJ
But when I hit calibrate I get that error measage
Yes software 11 v 1.2
Rs600
You need autocal 7 v1.0 for RS600.
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You need autocal 7 v1.0 for RS600.
tried that. Same message came up
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New autocal manual from JVC.
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Yeah, guess they aren't continuing the Spyder5 support as that stops at firmware 3.10 now.
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Yeah, guess they aren't continuing the Spyder5 support as that stops at firmware 3.10 now.
I've confirmed this with JVC. Only the Spyder X works with the new firmware. I just ordered one tonight. Sadly, it won't be delivered until the 19th.
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Nice way to increase Datacolor sales ... :-X
Fortunately I already have a Spyder X ;)
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I've confirmed this with JVC. Only the Spyder X works with the new firmware. I just ordered one tonight. Sadly, it won't be delivered until the 19th.
will the spyderX work with the rs600 though?
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Hello, I would like to use Autocal without spending too much money, I already have an i1d3 but it is not autocal compatible. so i am wondering if it is useful to buy spyder x and use it only for gamma and then do 3d lut dispcal (madVR) for color in max bright off mode.
In summary will I gain something with a gamma autocal before a 3dlut dispcal? thank you
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Hello, I would like to use Autocal without spending too much money, I already have an i1d3 but it is not autocal compatible. so i am wondering if it is useful to buy spyder x and use it only for gamma and then do 3d lut dispcal (madVR) for color in max bright off mode.
In summary will I gain something with a gamma autocal before a 3dlut dispcal? thank you
If you’re using a 3DLUT there’s not much point in running Autocal. Just set the projector to use its (uncalibrated) native gamut.
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Having no knowledge about 3DLut's, I guess one has to use a PCHC and Madvr to use one ?
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Hello, I would like to use Autocal without spending too much money, I already have an i1d3 but it is not autocal compatible. so i am wondering if it is useful to buy spyder x and use it only for gamma and then do 3d lut dispcal (madVR) for color in max bright off mode.
In summary will I gain something with a gamma autocal before a 3dlut dispcal? thank you
There is an unofficial hack way to use the i1d3 with autocal if that’s something you might be interested in.
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If you’re using a 3DLUT there’s not much point in running Autocal. Just set the projector to use its (uncalibrated) native gamut.
ok, can we put the color temp and the color profile on native by selecting "high bright and color profile: OFF. But how do I put the Gamma on native? So Autocal does not correct the native gamma then?"
There is an unofficial hack way to use the i1d3 with autocal if that’s something you might be interested in.
With the new firmware 3.50 it is no longer possible to use Autocal v11 so it is impossible to use the i1d3 tweak for the moment. only V12 works
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ok, can we put the color temp and the color profile on native by selecting "high bright and color profile: OFF. But how do I put the Gamma on native? So Autocal does not correct the native gamma then?"
With the new firmware 3.50 it is no longer possible to use Autocal v11 so it is impossible to use the i1d3 tweak for the moment. only V12 works
There are DLLs floating around for i1d3 on autocal 12 (emulating a SpyderX)
There are actually 2 out there, one using the x-rite SDK and one using ArgyIICMS.
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ok, can we put the color temp and the color profile on native by selecting "high bright and color profile: OFF. But how do I put the Gamma on native? So Autocal does not correct the native gamma then?"
With the new firmware 3.50 it is no longer possible to use Autocal v11 so it is impossible to use the i1d3 tweak for the moment. only V12 works
There is no “native gamma” per se, but the gamma calibration is tied to the colour profile and lamp power, so with colour profile OFF the corresponding gamma does not get calibrated; i.e., you will always have the gamma droop.
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There is no “native gamma” per se, but the gamma calibration is tied to the colour profile and lamp power, so with colour profile OFF the corresponding gamma does not get calibrated; i.e., you will always have the gamma droop.
tied to the color filter, not profile...
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tied to the color filter, not profile...
There’s really no point in getting hung up with semantics. The user can only select profiles, not colour filter directly. Each profile uniquely determines whether the filter is on or off, so there is no confusion.
The statement is not true in the current context of answering the question of “native gamma”. Profile:BT.709, Profile:HDR and Profile:Off all do not use the filter. The first two get calibrated together, but Profile:Off never gets calibrated.
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Not true in the current context. Profile:BT.709, Profile:HDR and Profile:Off all do not use the filter. The first two get calibrated together, but Profile:Off never gets calibrated.
I don't think you will never be able to calibrate Profile OFF, as it is a non-processed profile by definition, targeted to get the most possible light for external processors adopters . The rule is always the same: what impacts gamma calibration are color filter and lamp power in any mode you put them, plus aperture for the color. This is unchanged. Simply they introduced an unprocessed profile that can't be calibrated I guess.
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I don't think you will never be able to calibrate Profile OFF, as it is a non-processed profile by definition, targeted to get the most possible light for external processors adopters . The rule is always the same: what impacts gamma calibration are color filter and lamp power in any mode you put them, plus aperture for the color. This is unchanged. Simply they introduced an unprocessed profile that can't be calibrated I guess.
You can calibrate profile off manually though.
You can do white balance, custom gamma, and CMS as normal.
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Hi,
I own a JVC rs1000/nx5/n5 projector. Recently, I upgraded the firmware to version 3.5 and the calibration software to version 12, 1.10. With these updates, the calibration is interrupted with the error message “Connection to the sensor was cut off. Please un plug USB connection and click retry button. And click the START button at the bottom right.” The calibration worked just fine with the previous firmware and software versions (I’m using the SpyderX Pro and Win 10).
Just wanted to check if I'm the only one with this problem... Thinking of going back to previous firmware and software versions.
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Hi,
I own a JVC rs1000/nx5/n5 projector. Recently, I upgraded the firmware to version 3.5 and the calibration software to version 12, 1.10. With these updates, the calibration is interrupted with the error message “Connection to the sensor was cut off. Please un plug USB connection and click retry button. And click the START button at the bottom right.” The calibration worked just fine with the previous firmware and software versions (I’m using the SpyderX Pro and Win 10).
Just wanted to check if I'm the only one with this problem... Thinking of going back to previous firmware and software versions.
Apparently the SpyderX returns this error message when it gets a 0 reading. Have you tried increasing the brightness during calibration?
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Apparently the SpyderX returns this error message when it gets a 0 reading. Have you tried increasing the brightness during calibration?
Thank you for the tip!
No, I wasn't aware that you could change the brightness setting used during calibration (apart from lamp mode and aperture setting). Just to be sure about this, how do you set brightness for the calibration?
Concerning the error message, I was able to run through both red and green gamma measurements even though the two first measurement steps produced 0 values (I used the 20 step "normal" measurement). For the blue gamma, however, the error message pops up. Is this expected? Do all three colors need to have measured zero in one or more steps before giving an error?
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Thank you for the tip!
No, I wasn't aware that you could change the brightness setting used during calibration (apart from lamp mode and aperture setting). Just to be sure about this, how do you set brightness for the calibration?
Concerning the error message, I was able to run through both red and green gamma measurements even though the two first measurement steps produced 0 values (I used the 20 step "normal" measurement). For the blue gamma, however, the error message pops up. Is this expected? Do all three colors need to have measured zero in one or more steps before giving an error?
Zoom the projector into the screen to make the image smaller (brighter).
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Zoom the projector into the screen to make the image smaller (brighter).
Of course, didn't think of that. Thanks! I'll try once more and let you know about the results.
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I'm receiving the exact same "connection was cut off" error message using firmware version 3.5, also using the SpyderX pro. I tried the suggestion of zooming in to increase brightness, but I got the same error at the same point. I'm also seeing the error when the calibration gets to blue. Any other ideas?
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I'm receiving the exact same "connection was cut off" error message using firmware version 3.5, also using the SpyderX pro. I tried the suggestion of zooming in to increase brightness, but I got the same error at the same point. I'm also seeing the error when the calibration gets to blue. Any other ideas?
Yesterday, I was able to successfully complete several calibration runs. It was the tip from David Vaughn which did the trick, i.e. zooming (so thanks for that!). The first successful run was with the "normal" 20 step gamma calibration. I then tried with the "Quality" 33 step calibration, and it failed with the same error message (also for the blue measurements). Again, the solution was to zoom to a smaller image size, actually to the limit. After that, even the 33 step calibration worked.
I now realize that the tolerances are quite small. sdenman, is there anything you can do to boost light output a bit more?
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Thanks to_shine, glad to hear you were able to get things working.
I was actually able to get the calibration to work once (using quality mode), but then every subsequent attempt has crashed with the "connection" error, under normal and fast mode. Interestingly, the calibration is now crashing very early on, during the initial log just after it measures yellow, whereas it was previously crashing much later.
I've tried zooming in as far as possible, but get the same error. I'm trying to calibrate the SDR, with Natural picture mode, low lamp. I'm projecting onto a Stewart Firehawk G5 screen, 123", from about 16' away. My room is semi-light controlled, but with light colored walls and a white ceiling. I'm not really sure what levers I have to increase brightness besides setting the lamp to high.
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Is anyone else having trouble getting the i1 Pro2 to connect? After the white light flashes I press the calibrate button and I just an an orange light and it refuses to connect. Yes the white tile is visible to the sensor. When using the i1profiler software it connects just fine. Never seemed to have an issue with the previous version of autocal.
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You don't have to press the calibrate button on the i1Pro2, just put it on its white tile cradle BEFORE starting Autocal and then let go, after selecting the i1 Pro2 icon it may take several seconds to calibrate ( wait till you see the flash ) then put it back to its measuring position.
At least that's how it goes with mine, but I will try it again tomorrow.
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I could not get it to work with my main Win10 PC or my surface pro7 but its working on my wifes laptop. Go figure. No idea what could be different on my two devices. All Win10 and all have the latest autocal installed. The meter connects right away like normal on the one but displays an orange light on the meter and refuses to connect on the other two.
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I could not get it to work with my main Win10 PC or my surface pro7 but its working on my wifes laptop. Go figure. No idea what could be different on my two devices. All Win10 and all have the latest autocal installed. The meter connects right away like normal on the one but displays an orange light on the meter and refuses to connect on the other two.
I wonder if the USB port is underpowered? Are you using a USB extension cable? If so, you may need a powered USB hub to ensure there's enough juice to keep it within spec. Not 100% sure about this, but that may be the issue.
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I thought this might be the case so I connected directly with single cable. Same results. Using wife's laptop for now I can work around the issue but doesn't make sense why it doesn't work with other Win10 PCs.
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I thought this might be the case so I connected directly with single cable. Same results. Using wife's laptop for now I can work around the issue but doesn't make sense why it doesn't work with other Win10 PCs.
That doesn't make sense to me either unless the USB ports on your laptop are underpowered versus your wife's?
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USB 3.0 ports (blue plastic inserts) put out more power for devices than USB 2.0 ports (white plastic inserts).
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USB 3.0 ports (blue plastic inserts) put out more power for devices than USB 2.0 ports (white plastic inserts).
Phil, I wonder if too much power could be a problem?
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USB 3.0 ports (blue plastic inserts) put out more power for devices than USB 2.0 ports (white plastic inserts).
This is great info and prob why I couldn’t get my spyder5 to work
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Phil, I wonder if too much power could be a problem?
I always use a USB 3.0 port on my laptop to connect my Spyder X and EFI ES-2000 (the OEM version of the i1Pro2).
It's the same 5 volts as USB 2.0, it just has more current (amps) available to it if needed by the external device. The amount of power drawn is controlled by the device connected to it - unless there isn't enough power available from the port - at which point the external device can't function and you get an error message like "not connected."
You're less likely to get that error message with a USB 3 port than with a USB 2 port.
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This is great info and prob why I couldn't get my spyder5 to work
If using a laptop with only 2.0 jacks, a powered 3.0 hub (port replicator) with its own AC adapter, plugged into a 2.0 jack could get you 3.0 power reserves on its output jacks (though still with 2.0 speed).
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Correction: USB 2.0 jacks' plastic insert is black, not white! (White signifies USB 1.0.)
Blue is, however, the color used to identify a 3.0 jack.
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Phil, I wonder if too much power could be a problem?
Dave, let me geek out for a moment in giving you a fuller answer.
Current (in amps) = Voltage divided by Resistance (in ohms)
and
Power (in watts) = Voltage times Current
Since the two jacks (USB 2.0 and 3.0) present the same 5 volts, the amount of power drawn is based on the resistance of the load (the device you plug into it). The lower the resistance of the load, the more current can flow, drawing more power.
That's why "shorting out" a power connection (i.e. connecting a wire - which has nearly zero resistance), is dangerous: it draws all the power available, tripping a breaker or blowing a fuse (in the best case), or burning things out (in the worst case).
So it's actually more dangerous to plug a high-power (low resistance) device into a 2.0 jack than a low-power (high resistance) device into a 3.0 jack. If you're lucky, the high power device simply won't get enough power and won't work. If you're unlucky, it'll pull more power than the 2.0 jack is designed to give and either flip a breaker, or blow a fuse or internal circuit in the laptop.
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Thanks to_shine, glad to hear you were able to get things working.
I was actually able to get the calibration to work once (using quality mode), but then every subsequent attempt has crashed with the "connection" error, under normal and fast mode. Interestingly, the calibration is now crashing very early on, during the initial log just after it measures yellow, whereas it was previously crashing much later.
I've tried zooming in as far as possible, but get the same error. I'm trying to calibrate the SDR, with Natural picture mode, low lamp. I'm projecting onto a Stewart Firehawk G5 screen, 123", from about 16' away. My room is semi-light controlled, but with light colored walls and a white ceiling. I'm not really sure what levers I have to increase brightness besides setting the lamp to high.
I have the same problem using SpyderX on a Surface Pro 2 running Windows 10. Calibrating gamma with the SpyderX crashes really early in the process doing the log section or sometimes at the beginning of the 1st 20 step run. Color calibration with the i1 Pro2 still works normally. I had the screen zoomed as small as it would go. Thankfully I didn't uninstall the prior version 12.0 of the Autocal software and I could complete the gamma calibration with that version. I think it's bad programming or driver issues on this version. If you go to the download section of the JVC website you can still get the old version if you change the end of the url to /JVC_PJ_Calibration12_en_v1_00.zip.
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Thank you for the tip!
No, I wasn't aware that you could change the brightness setting used during calibration (apart from lamp mode and aperture setting). Just to be sure about this, how do you set brightness for the calibration?
Concerning the error message, I was able to run through both red and green gamma measurements even though the two first measurement steps produced 0 values (I used the 20 step "normal" measurement). For the blue gamma, however, the error message pops up. Is this expected? Do all three colors need to have measured zero in one or more steps before giving an error?
That was just one possible explanation; v1.1 is relatively new so the exact cause of the error is still somewhat speculative. Regardless, if there are two readings as 0 then the gamma calibration result won’t be valid. You’ll likely get colour tints in the dark tones.
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I have the same problem using SpyderX on a Surface Pro 2 running Windows 10. Calibrating gamma with the SpyderX crashes really early in the process doing the log section or sometimes at the beginning of the 1st 20 step run. Color calibration with the i1 Pro2 still works normally. I had the screen zoomed as small as it would go. Thankfully I didn't uninstall the prior version 12.0 of the Autocal software and I could complete the gamma calibration with that version. I think it's bad programming or driver issues on this version. If you go to the download section of the JVC website you can still get the old version if you change the end of the url to /JVC_PJ_Calibration12_en_v1_00.zip.
So Autocal 12 v1.0 still works, with FW3.5? I thought v1.1 is required for the new firmware.
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Autocal V12 1.00 still worked fine for me on Firmware v3.50. Obviously it doesn't have all the new menus like version 1.1, but it seems like for doing Gamma it is ok.
After more testing I discovered the measurements causing it to error out are close to 0 but not actually 0 when comparing version 1 to 1.1. I was still able to capture an excellent 33 step gamma curve with version 1.
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That's strange some people are having problems. I am running Autocal v12 1.10 with a Surface Pro 7, Spyder X & a 9' USB extension. I've ran several SDR & HDR calibrations without any issues.
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Hello
after a gamma and color calibration in autocal in V12 1.1
I have these coordinates for the colors
I do not understand what they correspond to impossible
to find these coordinates in the colorhcfr software
is it just the offset (correction of the points) to arrive at the standard
because I see that the Z of red is at 0 is this normal?
thank you
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Hello
after a gamma and color calibration in autocal in V12 1.1
I have these coordinates for the colors
I do not understand what they correspond to impossible
to find these coordinates in the colorhcfr software
is it just the offset (correction of the points) to arrive at the standard
because I see that the Z of red is at 0 is this normal?
thank you
XYZ are “raw” measurements. You can switch HCFR to those units as well.
The calibration log presents the information in the more common xyY and CIE diagram.
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Hello
no these measurements are not in hcfr even by changing the xyz,
moreover my Red is at 0 so
I don't think that these are values but rather a correction compared
to the standard values, no?
of course the coordonates of color temp is in the hcfr but not a color signal level ?
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my pdf file report hcfr with just u autocal v12 1.1 with the i1d3
without any editing in user mode 1 2.2 6500 rec 709 impression anyway
I just don't understand the info from my first screenshot which has Byzaric coordinates
and which appear in the screens during measurement and the red has a Z at 0
so for me it's just a catching up of luminance standards or others because my curves
after this calibration are practically perfect until the colorchecker
without touching up the menu of the jvc n5
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Hello
no these measurements are not in hcfr even by changing the xyz,
moreover my Red is at 0 so
I don't think that these are values but rather a correction compared
to the standard values, no?
of course the coordonates of color temp is in the hcfr but not a color signal level ?
Nope, they are measurements, not corrections. The values are shown under < Start Color > one by one as the readings are taken, at which time the corrections have not even been computed.
See the HCFR screenshot which has identical XYZ values as your Autocal screen. The HCFR CIE diagram should also be the same as the Autocal CIE diagram (Before correction), even though you didn't post it.
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my testcali.pdf is in my post 1288 with the autocal cie, you need to download it and I know that the coordinates are found in hcfr it is not my request, my request is in summary why my red has its Z to 0 see my post 1286
sorry for my poor english
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my testcali.pdf is in my post 1288 with the autocal cie, you need to download it and I know that the coordinates are found in hcfr it is not my request, my request is in summary why my red has its Z to 0 see my post 1286
sorry for my poor english
It’s perfectly legitimate to have 0 values in the XYZ coordinates:
(Source: https://ninedegreesbelow.com/photography/xyz-rgb.html)
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ok it's good then :)
many thanks for your explain
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Ive moved my questions over to this forum since it seems more dedicated to Autocal than the “other” forum.
I watched this video yesterday on youtube and decided to finally look at calibrating my NX9 which Ive had from when they were first released.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXHMl4SVC3E&feature=emb_logo&ab_channel=Youthman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXHMl4SVC3E&feature=emb_logo&ab_channel=Youthman)
Ive always only used Natural for SDR and are on the new firmware 3.5 for HDR.
As Im no expert on these things to me the picture has always looked spectacular upscaling everything to 4K through madvr on my curved 145” ST 130 microperf screen.
Currently my lamp is on approx. 1000hrs. I use Auto 2 iris and fully open as the blacks are good on the NX9. My room is fully black!
I bought the Spyder X Pro yesterday but now the more I read Im hearing issues so now Im not sure what to do….
- You cant use the Spyder X Pro for colour, yet the youtube video did gamma and colour and they say the result was fantastic.
- If I do colour will I make things worse than just leaving my NX9 the way it was from the factory?
- If I have to use it only for gamma, what do I actually see on the screen if the gamma is corrected, does anyone have a before and after image to see the difference, (not graphs)
- The new Autocal firmware v1.1 designed for JVC 3.5 apparently has issues with the new update, some say v1.1 is a problem and to use v1.0, what do I do since Im starting green?
- Has anyone here used the SpyderX Pro for colour and gamma, were the results better than their NX out of the box?
The youtube video makes it sound easy, but the more I read the more I feel this is not for the faint hearted.:(
Ive read the first post from manni but Im still a bit concerned that I might make a mess of my default NX9 settings, since they get wiped after Autocal.
Thank you in advance…
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That was just one possible explanation; v1.1 is relatively new so the exact cause of the error is still somewhat speculative. Regardless, if there are two readings as 0 then the gamma calibration result won’t be valid. You’ll likely get colour tints in the dark tones.
Of course, I'm sorry if I implied that "my" solution was THE solution. Clearly, it's not.
You're right, the colours were a bit off. Don't know if that has to do with the software issue or the SpyderX Pro, or both. Anyhow, after the calibration, I did some manual adjustments using HCFR and an i1Display Pro and now I measure near perfect colours and gamma (and it looks great too).
Just wondering if JVC is working on a fix...? I tried contacting JVC directly, but didn't receive any reply.
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Ive moved my questions over to this forum since it seems more dedicated to Autocal than the “other” forum.
I watched this video yesterday on youtube and decided to finally look at calibrating my NX9 which Ive had from when they were first released.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXHMl4SVC3E&feature=emb_logo&ab_channel=Youthman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXHMl4SVC3E&feature=emb_logo&ab_channel=Youthman)
Ive always only used Natural for SDR and are on the new firmware 3.5 for HDR.
As Im no expert on these things to me the picture has always looked spectacular upscaling everything to 4K through madvr on my curved 145” ST 130 microperf screen.
Currently my lamp is on approx. 1000hrs. I use Auto 2 iris and fully open as the blacks are good on the NX9. My room is fully black!
I bought the Spyder X Pro yesterday but now the more I read Im hearing issues so now Im not sure what to do….
- You cant use the Spyder X Pro for colour, yet the youtube video did gamma and colour and they say the result was fantastic.
- If I do colour will I make things worse than just leaving my NX9 the way it was from the factory?
- If I have to use it only for gamma, what do I actually see on the screen if the gamma is corrected, does anyone have a before and after image to see the difference, (not graphs)
- The new Autocal firmware v1.1 designed for JVC 3.5 apparently has issues with the new update, some say v1.1 is a problem and to use v1.0, what do I do since Im starting green?
- Has anyone here used the SpyderX Pro for colour and gamma, were the results better than their NX out of the box?
The youtube video makes it sound easy, but the more I read the more I feel this is not for the faint hearted.:(
Ive read the first post from manni but Im still a bit concerned that I might make a mess of my default NX9 settings, since they get wiped after Autocal.
Thank you in advance…
I am also deciding if I will use my spyder X to calibrate or keep the original projector and keep my 3dlut external calibration which is done with an i1d3.
I compared the results between spyder X and i1d3 on Color HCFR on my PC monitor. The color temperature is practically the same the spyder X requires 2% more green from 0 to 100 IRE. on the other hand it measures 12% more blue from 15 IRE
For the colors there is also a slight difference but the numbers remain in the green so with a good deltaE. I don't think you can see the difference.
But Manni will answer you better than me.
Besides, I also have a question: don't you think that JVC has integrated into the Autocal software a kind of integrated correction matrix to match these differences between a spyder X and a better colorimeter / spectrometer? Because if we compare and we see that there is 12% difference on the blue at 10 IRE compared to i1d3, jvc can corrected it internally. Since there are only 2 compatible devices it seems logical to me.
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I am also deciding if I will use my spyder X to calibrate or keep the original projector and keep my 3dlut external calibration which is done with an i1d3.
I compared the results between spyder X and i1d3 on Color HCFR on my PC monitor. The color temperature is practically the same the spyder X requires 2% more green from 0 to 100 IRE. on the other hand it measures 12% more blue from 15 IRE
For the colors there is also a slight difference but the numbers remain in the green so with a good deltaE. I don't think you can see the difference.
But Manni will answer you better than me.
Besides, I also have a question: don't you think that JVC has integrated into the Autocal software a kind of integrated correction matrix to match these differences between a spyder X and a better colorimeter / spectrometer? Because if we compare and we see that there is 12% difference on the blue at 10 IRE compared to i1d3, jvc can corrected it internally. Since there are only 2 compatible devices it seems logical to me.
I wouldnt really have any answers regarding Autocal and the SpyderX Pro here as I came to this thread to find answers. But I too wonder about your question, if the SpyderX Pro was so bad for colour I find it odd that JVC would even recommend to use it. Plus for all the negative comments there are regarding its use for colour, there are plenty of good comments.... It may not look perfect on a graph as the more expensive meters read, but to the eye maybe the results look better that the NX default settings.
I think its a bit like auto, few have perfect results for their rooms say using REW or similar, but the actual sound in the room is spectacular to the ear. Ive seen people chasing their tails for years with trying to get the perfect graph on paper with REW and even with thousands $$$ spent never actually achieve a perfect result. The day I stopped measuring audio and just started to watch and listen to films was the day I actually realised my sound was great anyway... I swore I would never measure again and packed up the microphone for good and sat back and enjoyed.
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Went to calibrate my N7 following upgrade to v3.50fw and the number of picture modes has reduced significantly?
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Manni - anything new that we should be aware of when calibrating fw v3.50?
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Besides, I also have a question: don't you think that JVC has integrated into the Autocal software a kind of integrated correction matrix to match these differences between a spyder X and a better colorimeter / spectrometer? Because if we compare and we see that there is 12% difference on the blue at 10 IRE compared to i1d3, jvc can corrected it internally. Since there are only 2 compatible devices it seems logical to me.
The correction matrix is supported but JVC does not seem to describe it in the instructions. It is in the init.xml file, located in:
C:\Users\"User Name"\AppData\Roaming\JVCKENWOOD\Projector Calibration Software 12
The default file contains only a unity matrix (no corrections); if the user populates the content Autocal make use of it.
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Went to calibrate my N7 following upgrade to v3.50fw and the number of picture modes has reduced significantly?
It's because JVC in their infinite wisdom decided to restrict User 1-3 to SDR, and User 4-6 to HDR.
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I am also deciding if I will use my spyder X to calibrate or keep the original projector and keep my 3dlut external calibration which is done with an i1d3.
I compared the results between spyder X and i1d3 on Color HCFR on my PC monitor. The color temperature is practically the same the spyder X requires 2% more green from 0 to 100 IRE. on the other hand it measures 12% more blue from 15 IRE
For the colors there is also a slight difference but the numbers remain in the green so with a good deltaE. I don't think you can see the difference.
But Manni will answer you better than me.
Besides, I also have a question: don't you think that JVC has integrated into the Autocal software a kind of integrated correction matrix to match these differences between a spyder X and a better colorimeter / spectrometer? Because if we compare and we see that there is 12% difference on the blue at 10 IRE compared to i1d3, jvc can corrected it internally. Since there are only 2 compatible devices it seems logical to me.
Low IRE measurements with the SpyderX are irrelevant.
Autocal Color calibration is measured at 100 IRE for white balance and 100% saturation for primary/secondary colors.
It’s autocal gamma that calibrates the rest of the IRE range for white balance, based on the relative luminance measurements of each color across the IRE range, all based on the 100% IRE reading from color calibration.
Autocal Color calibration consists of only 7 patch measurements. 100% R,G,B,C,M,Y,W.
JVC does not use any built-in correction matrix for the Spyder.
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Ive moved my questions over to this forum since it seems more dedicated to Autocal than the “other” forum.
I watched this video yesterday on youtube and decided to finally look at calibrating my NX9 which Ive had from when they were first released.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXHMl4SVC3E&feature=emb_logo&ab_channel=Youthman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXHMl4SVC3E&feature=emb_logo&ab_channel=Youthman)
Ive always only used Natural for SDR and are on the new firmware 3.5 for HDR.
As Im no expert on these things to me the picture has always looked spectacular upscaling everything to 4K through madvr on my curved 145” ST 130 microperf screen.
Currently my lamp is on approx. 1000hrs. I use Auto 2 iris and fully open as the blacks are good on the NX9. My room is fully black!
I bought the Spyder X Pro yesterday but now the more I read Im hearing issues so now Im not sure what to do….
- You cant use the Spyder X Pro for colour, yet the youtube video did gamma and colour and they say the result was fantastic.
- If I do colour will I make things worse than just leaving my NX9 the way it was from the factory?
- If I have to use it only for gamma, what do I actually see on the screen if the gamma is corrected, does anyone have a before and after image to see the difference, (not graphs)
- The new Autocal firmware v1.1 designed for JVC 3.5 apparently has issues with the new update, some say v1.1 is a problem and to use v1.0, what do I do since Im starting green?
- Has anyone here used the SpyderX Pro for colour and gamma, were the results better than their NX out of the box?
The youtube video makes it sound easy, but the more I read the more I feel this is not for the faint hearted.:(
Ive read the first post from manni but Im still a bit concerned that I might make a mess of my default NX9 settings, since they get wiped after Autocal.
Thank you in advance…
I’m pretty much in the same boat, but I have an i1pro2 on the way here to calibrate color.
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I’m pretty much in the same boat, but I have an i1pro2 on the way here to calibrate color.
Did you buy a new one? I know I probably have to go down that path sooner or later, how much do we have to pay for one?
I wonder why alot of guys that have the i1pro2 actually use the spyder x pro to do gamma, is it easier to use?
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Did you buy a new one? I know I probably have to go down that path sooner or later, how much do we have to pay for one?
I wonder why alot of guys that have the i1pro2 actually use the spyder x pro to do gamma, is it easier to use?
Because the i1 Pro 2 is nowhere near sensitive enough for measuring gamma under about 10% IRE which there are a few patterns that dim in the 33 point gamma autocal.
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Because the i1 Pro 2 is nowhere near sensitive enough for measuring gamma under about 10% IRE which there are a few patterns that dim in the 33 point gamma autocal.
I was able to get a very good gamma calibration using the i1Pro2. Had to use it in the ambient light mode, facing and really close to the projector lens.
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Because the i1 Pro 2 is nowhere near sensitive enough for measuring gamma under about 10% IRE which there are a few patterns that dim in the 33 point gamma autocal.
So in other words the i1pro2 has the advantage with colour and the spyderx pro has an advantage with gamma, true? They say that all the NX models have gamma droop, so maybe the spyder is the best bet as a first meter to invest in...
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I was able to get a very good gamma calibration using the i1Pro2. Had to use it in the ambient light mode, facing and really close to the projector lens.
Lol of course. But I was referring to stock autocal where you can't use ambient mode. Of course if you use hacked autocal where you face the lens you have nearly unlimited brightness to work with if you move it super close.
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Lol of course. But I was referring to stock autocal where you can't use ambient mode. Of course if you use hacked autocal where you face the lens you have nearly unlimited brightness to work with if you move it super close.
A couple of years ago I already used the i1Pro meter in ambient mode for gamma calibration of an x570. That was long before the patches came out, so the software itself was just using the regular reflective mode. It was more tricky because of the more limited range of the i1Pro (compared with i1Pro2), but it worked.
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A couple of years ago I already used the i1Pro meter in ambient mode for gamma calibration of an x570. That was long before the patches came out, so the software itself was just using the regular reflective mode. It was more tricky because of the more limited range of the i1Pro (compared with i1Pro2), but it worked.
Ah, so the native autocal software will work just fine facing it at the lens with the diffuser on?
And does it accept the meter calibration from the black lens cap then, rather than the white tile in this scenario?
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I don’t remember, but in theory both the display mode and the ambient mode only need the black cap, not the white tile, for calibration. It’s only the reflective mode that needs the white tile to calibrate the internal light source.
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Autocal Color calibration consists of only 7 patch measurements. 100% R,G,B,C,M,Y,W.
The actual calibration only uses 4 patches, 100% W,R,G,B. It’s only the log that additionally uses the secondary colours.
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I don’t remember, but in theory both the display mode and the ambient mode only need the black cap, not the white tile, for calibration. It’s only the reflective mode that needs the white tile to calibrate the internal light source.
Ah true.
And ArgyIICMS when using the meter in hi-res mode as the developer said he uses the white tile reading to help up-scale the 10nm reading to 3.3nm.
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Did you buy a new one? I know I probably have to go down that path sooner or later, how much do we have to pay for one?
I wonder why alot of guys that have the i1pro2 actually use the spyder x pro to do gamma, is it easier to use?
I bought a new/old stock one off of eBay.
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Gonna read all the way through Manni’s FAQ and report back.
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Hello, I use Autocal v12 1.10 with the mod for i1 display pro, it worked very well (thank you OMARDRIS) With my NX5
When I use the DCI profile and 6500k the red 100% is in the right place.
When I use the DCI and Color temp on MaxBright the red 100% is not in the right place.
Why is red not on target with the second option? Is it a bug? I even test a custom color profile DCI it's the same thing. I really need DCI with MaxBright for color temperature because I use a fl-day filter and MaxBright allows me to wait for D65 with a lot more Nits.
BT 2020 does not have this problem but I prefer the idea of using DCI P3
I'd like to calibrate in DCI for madvr just with Autocal
Edit : This problem was the same before the first use of autocal. Thank you
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If you're not using a 3D LUT, it doesn't matter if you use BT2020 or P3, as long as saturations are tracking properly as far as the gamut go. Assuming you're not using a 3D LUT, I would select in the JVC and in Calman:
BT2020, P65, Gamma 2.4 and make sure in Calman that the PJ is tracking well with these targets. Your BT2020 cover will look under saturated, but as long as the saturations track, you'll be good to go. If you want your gamut graphs to look nicer, you can measure P3 within BT2020, there are some layouts that do that. This shows how P3 content measures within the BT2020 container.
In madVR's calibration tab, simply provide the settings you've used when calibrating/checking with Calman, in this case already "calibrated for" BT2020, D65, 2.4. The advantage of doing it this way is that you can use the same calibration with a consumer source, such as a Pana UB UHD player tonemapping to SDR BT2020.
How do you do that? because when I measure BT2020 the graphics are not pretty. I use color HCFR to control, I tested Referance BT2020 / P3 but the saturations do not correspond. eg green makes a big bend while BT2020 / P3 green is straight. thanks again
I always tested firmware 3.5 and N5 between BT2020 and DCI using the same color temperature (MaxBright) and I measured a 100ire white with 3nits more, how is it possible? the Gamut shouldn't change the brightness of white right?
I am thinking of calibrating and using BT2020 and indicating it in madVR, this fixes my DCI red problem and I gain some nits
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Gonna read all the way through Manni’s FAQ and report back.
Just got the EFI ES-2000 Spectrophotometer and I have the spyder x so will be doing a calibration tonight.
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Just finished calibration and looks amazing. Thanks to everyone on here. I read all through this thread before I did everything.
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Hi,
I solved finally...using another laptop. The only differences between the laptops and the process are:
- The windows version. Both Windows 10 64 bit. Laptop working: version 1803. Laptop not working: 14xx.
- In the laptop working, I never installed the datacolor software. In the previous one I first installed the software and then trying uninstalling or disabling it and never worked.
So, one of the 2 reasons is causing the problem. I am prone to think that installing datacolor sotware for spyderX, does something in the system preventing Autocal to detect the spyderX, even you unistall the software later.
And because the driver is automatically installed by windows 10 when you connect the spyderX, my advice is: DO NOT INSTALL DATACOLOR SOFTWARE. You do not need it and may cause problems with Autocal detecting the spyderX.
Thanks Manni for your help.
Now, let's calibrate.
Mario.
Revisiting this. Does anyone else have any additional guidance on getting this working with a SpyderX Pro? I have the latest model RS1000. My Autocal software is able to connect to the projector, but is not able to see the SpyderX. I also have a driver dated from 2006. Running the latest build of Win10 on a laptop specifically built for this use case.
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Hang on some news are cropping in that an update may be released soon ......
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Hang on some news are cropping in that an update may be released soon ......
Update for what, AutoCal?
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What else ?
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What else ?
Wasn't sure if you meant Autocal or an update to 3.50 already.
Interesting - I ran the most recent version a few days ago and didn't have any issues. Will be curious to see what the update all does.
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Update should be tomorrow
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Update should be tomorrow
Do you mean an update to the autocal software?
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Update should be tomorrow
It’s already there. V1.11
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Wasn't sure if you meant Autocal or an update to 3.50 already.
Interesting - I ran the most recent version a few days ago and didn't have any issues. Will be curious to see what the update all does.
Just a bug fix, v1.11. “Fixed a problem that occurred in some environments.”
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Yeah I still experience the same issue with the latest V12 1.11 software against my RS1000.
Am able to connect to the projector with no issues but have tried two different versions of the SpyderX Pro driver, one which ships with windows as some in this thread have suggested and one that ship with datacolor's utilities. If I run the included software on the SpyderX on any other PC/Mac it works fine.
But with the JVC software no luck...not able to detect the sensor... any ideas here I am stumped?
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I don't understand why some can connect and others don't. I've done spyder x and EFI ES-2000 Spectrophotometer connects all the time. I use Windows 10.
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Hello,
I still can't get a correct "DCI" with "MaxBright" color temp. with 6500k it is correct.
Can someone explain this to me? thx
DCI + MaxBright
(https://i.imgur.com/xtF7YR8.jpg)
DCI + 6500K
(https://i.imgur.com/NMzlRXl.jpg)
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Hello,
I still can't get a correct "DCI" with "MaxBright" color temp. with 6500k it is correct.
Can someone explain this to me? thx
DCI + MaxBright
(https://i.imgur.com/xtF7YR8.jpg)
DCI + 6500K
(https://i.imgur.com/NMzlRXl.jpg)
What software is that, that you’re using to show those plots?
What sensor?
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What software is that, that you’re using to show those plots?
What sensor?
Color HCFR
I1 display pro
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Hi forum,
This is my first post here, so apologies if I’m doing anything wrong.
After a wild series of events (more on that after my question), I’ve acquired an rs2000 and finally have time to autocal.
I watched some tutorials and did both color + gamma with a spyderX. After reading here, apparently that was a bad idea on the color side.
Seeing as I’m new to this, my first mission is ‘do no harm.’ In that spirit, I’m loading my .init file as I type. My plan is as follows once complete:
1- warm up pj 30 min
2- perform rec709+fully open iris+lo lamp for sdr
3- set to hi lamp, wait 15 min, repeat above on hi lamp for 3d
4- do bt2020, fully open iris, hi lamp for hdr
This time, gamma only (set to 2.2- will adjust to 2.4 after), quality setting, individual. I’ve already set black floor with brightness -2 on my pj.
If I can ‘survive’ this with good log, I might be brave and try to get an i1pro2 off eBay, but am wary of getting used. I know I need the calibration plate and not sure about software... let alone how to verify if I did it right... a mission for another time.
For now, I’ll be happy to nail gamma. I also may want to experiment with dynamic iris but I’m running on 117” screen science v6 at full zoom... so manually keeping iris fully open has been best to my eyes so far, even tho I know I’m leaving dynamic contrast on the table (maybe I’ll experiment with auto 2).
Thanks in advance for any help!
—Nick
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After reading here, apparently that was a bad idea on the color side.
Seeing as I’m new to this, my first mission is ‘do no harm.’ In that spirit, I’m loading my .init file as I type.
Did you actually notice the picture getting worse to cause you to revert?
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That’s a very good question. I did not check again after reverting before redoing gamma only. I did get three very nice gamma curves after correction (2 completely straight lines for non hdr) and the picture looks extremely similar for 3d and hdr and maybe just a touch less red on natural, but again, very similar. Tbh, I’m not sure the spyderX drastically altered the factory color settings but I have no empirical way to prove it.
Now I’m playing with the dynamic iris on auto 2 (0 base setting) and also with 16-255 (s white- did not calibrate on s white) which collectively is making my darks a lot darker while still having bright scenes sufficiently bright. I’m kinda liking the look of this...but tinkering away with different source material.
Other settings are lamp hi, bt2020 wide, frame adapt frame by frame, and theater optimizer on hi (120” screen + .8 gain)
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Tbh, I’m not sure the spyderX drastically altered the factory color settings but I have no empirical way to prove it.
If you compare the logs before and after colour calibration, you can see how much Autocal altered the colours.
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I like the changes Autocal made, using a SpyderX for gamma and i1Pro2 for color.
Where to from here? If I wanted to keep tinkering a bit - what pieces of hardware or software is the natural next step?
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I like the changes Autocal made, using a SpyderX for gamma and i1Pro2 for color.
Where to from here? If I wanted to keep tinkering a bit - what pieces of hardware or software is the natural next step?
How much did you pay for the i1pro?
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How much did you pay for the i1pro?
eBay. Couple hundred dollars.
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eBay. Couple hundred dollars.
Thanks I’m tryin to figure out if the ones I’m looking at are the correct ones
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If you get the EFI or x-rite used, is software readily available for calibrating computer monitors, especially recent Mac OS? Extra cost? I’d perhaps only justify getting one if it could pull double duty. The spyder 5 I got not long ago is already useless given it’s neither supported by JVC or Datacolor on recent macOS.
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Thanks I’m tryin to figure out if the ones I’m looking at are the correct ones
There's a primer over on another forum (and possibly this one) on the model differences. From what I understand (and purchased myself) you want Revision E (or D, but E is what I chose).
I got an X-rite branded model as opposed to the ES-2000 as I figured I might want to use the X-rite software at some point.
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If you get the EFI or x-rite used, is software readily available for calibrating computer monitors, especially recent Mac OS? Extra cost? I’d perhaps only justify getting one if it could pull double duty. The spyder 5 I got not long ago is already useless given it’s neither supported by JVC or Datacolor on recent macOS.
Only the X-rite can use the X-rite software from what I understand.
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1- I’ll definitely pull up my logs in the new year and see what the spyderX did for color- great suggestion. For now, I’m really liking it with just gamma calibration - especially on natural. I’ll also just say- prior to redoing this, I completely blacked out my room with flocking paper and flocked curtains I made, and that by far made more of a difference than any calibration. This feels more like the cherry on top.
2- I’ll jump in and say I’m also curious about the ‘pitfalls’ of getting an i1pro2 on ebay. I know getting the calibration pad is a must but also curious about software. I’ll read the suggested links above.
Thanks!
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If you get the EFI or x-rite used, is software readily available for calibrating computer monitors, especially recent Mac OS? Extra cost? I’d perhaps only justify getting one if it could pull double duty. The spyder 5 I got not long ago is already useless given it’s neither supported by JVC or Datacolor on recent macOS.
Each i1Pro meter has an embedded code. The x-rite software (i1Profiler) is free to download, and will show you which calibration modes the connected meter is licensed to run; e.g., display only, display+print etc.
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I once again read contradictory statements about the dynamic video range settings in all the elements of the autocal chain and also with a real calibration chain wether HCFR or other like ZRO.
So sorry to insist but can someone definitively give me the video range settings as below :
1- Autocal chain where the PC's graphic card is not part of the chain as orders are sent to the projector via a LAN connection and sensor connected to a PC's USB input :
==> PC setting = ?
==> Projector setting = ?
I haven't seen any such setting in the Autocal application.
2- HCFR (or other) calibration chain :
==> PC graphic card setting = ?
==> Projector via PC's HDMI output, setting = ?
==> HCFR setting = ?
3- Same as 2- but with a RPI PGen pattern generator in between the PC's hdmi output and the projector
Thanks for your patience .......
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I once again read contradictory statements about the dynamic video range settings in all the elements of the autocal chain and also with a real calibration chain wether HCFR or other like ZRO.
So sorry to insist but can someone definitively give me the video range settings as below :
1- Autocal chain where the PC's graphic card is not part of the chain as orders are sent to the projector via a LAN connection and sensor connected to a PC's USB input :
==> PC setting = ?
==> Projector setting = ?
I haven't seen any such setting in the Autocal application.
2- HCFR (or other) calibration chain :
==> PC graphic card setting = ?
==> Projector via PC's HDMI output, setting = ?
==> HCFR setting = ?
3- Same as 2- but with a RPI PGen pattern generator in between the PC's hdmi output and the projector
Thanks for your patience .......
1 - There is no dynamic range with autocal because the pc sends the patterns through the LAN
2 - You just have to use the same range, for example 0-255. if you want to avoid a conversion, you have to set the video player or HCFR to 16-235 and the graphics card to 0-255 and the projector to 16-235. with this solution the video player and hcfr will be correct, on the other hand the windows desktop or a video game will be wrong.
3 - The RPI PGenerator will send a full RGB signal (0-255). So same thing HCFR in 16-235 and the RPI PGen is in 0-255 and the JVC on 16-235
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OK, will try this next time, still I do not really understand why the graphic card has to be 0-255 ?
Why not 16-235 like the rest of the chain, isn't that forcing a double conversion, once 16-235 to 0-255 from HCFR to the graphic card and then again 0-255 to 16-235 from the graphic card to the projector ?
I understand that when using a player or mediacenter it resumes to 16-235 on both ends.
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OK, will try this next time, still I do not really understand why the graphic card has to be 0-255 ?
Why not 16-235 like the rest of the chain, isn't that forcing a double conversion, once 16-235 to 0-255 from HCFR to the graphic card and then again 0-255 to 16-235 from the graphic card to the projector ?
I understand that when using a player or mediacenter it resumes to 16-235 on both ends.
PCs work in full range color space. So setting the GPU to 16-235 forces the GPU to always convert the PC's full-range color to a 16-235 output signal. And nVidia and AMD just don't care all that much about the quality of this conversion, so it's not done in real high quality. To avoid the GPU from doing any conversion is must be set to 0-255 (RGB full).
If you set your media player to 16-235, and GPU to 0-255 and display to 16-235 then there is no conversion being done anywhere.
If you set all 3 to 0-255, then there is only 1 conversion being done, and that is in the media player, and if you use a renderer like madVR, then the 1 conversion is being done in very high quality and will not have any real quality degradation.
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Thanks a lot @Nook and @Sirmaster, now at last I have a clear understanding of why the GPU has to be set to 0-255, I was very uncertain as my laptop's GPU is a dedicated Radeon HD7400 and not the onboard Intel graphics, and that it has the choice of 0-255 (extended) and 16-235 (standard) video range.
Of course that is only used for running calibration as it is the only use of the laptop / projector combo.
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What if one has the GPU set to 16/235, madvr set to 0-255 and the proj set to 16/235, is this wrong?
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What if one has the GPU set to 16/235, madvr set to 0-255 and the proj set to 16/235, is this wrong?
GPU set to 16-235 is always wrong. If the GPU is set to 16-235 it will always be doing an average quality conversion no matter what anything else is set to.
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GPU set to 16-235 is always wrong. If the GPU is set to 16-235 it will always be doing an average quality conversion no matter what anything else is set to.
The problem I find if I set the GPU, madvr and the JVC NX9 all to 0/255, when the proj switches to HDR the image is washed out. Ive checked my 16/235 and the HDR test patterns and both SDR and HDR are not correct.
When I set the GPU to 16/235 and madvr to 0-255 and the JVC NX9 to 16/235 both test patterns for SDR and HDR are correct.
I just cant find a way to set the GPU to 0-255 and have SDR and HDR patters correct :-\
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The problem I find if I set the GPU, madvr and the JVC NX9 all to 0/255, when the proj switches to HDR the image is washed out. Ive checked my 16/235 and the HDR test patterns and both SDR and HDR are not correct.
When I set the GPU to 16/235 and madvr to 0-255 and the JVC NX9 to 16/235 both test patterns for SDR and HDR are correct.
I just cant find a way to set the GPU to 0-255 and have SDR and HDR patters correct :-\
Not sure why you are getting that problem.
Full - Limited - Limited (what you are using) is at least the correct video levels.
It's just double scaling the video and 1 of the scales is being done by the GPU driver at noit a high level of quality.
https://kodi.wiki/view/Video_levels_and_color_space
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Not sure why you are getting that problem.
Full - Limited - Limited (what you are using) is at least the correct video levels.
It's just double scaling the video and 1 of the scales is being done by the GPU driver at noit a high level of quality.
https://kodi.wiki/view/Video_levels_and_color_space
Oh Ive now been able to get it to work with the GPU, madvr and the proj all set to FULL, and 8bit on the card. If I change the card to 12bit as I had it before I run into the washed out look on the proj for HDR. I then have to manually change the proj back to 16/235 to get the test patterns correct.
So it looks like for my 1080Ti card I cant ever set it to 12bit.
What are your thoughts on this please?
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Oh Ive now been able to get it to work with the GPU, madvr and the proj all set to FULL, and 8bit on the card. If I change the card to 12bit as I had it before I run into the washed out look on the proj for HDR. I then have to manually change the proj back to 16/235 to get the test patterns correct.
So it looks like for my 1080Ti card I cant ever set it to 12bit.
What are your thoughts on this please?
I wouldn't bother with 12-bit on the NX9. The JVC NX don't support 12-bit at 4:4:4 chroma. They downsample 12-bit 4:4:4 to 4:2:2.
With 8-bit you get full 4:4:4 chroma working properly.
I have never seen banding at 8-bit when using madVR dithering so I don't see any reason to use 12-bit.
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I wouldn't bother with 12-bit on the NX9. The JVC NX don't support 12-bit at 4:4:4 chroma. They downsample 12-bit 4:4:4 to 4:2:2.
With 8-bit you get full 4:4:4 chroma working properly.
I have never seen banding at 8-bit when using madVR dithering so I don't see any reason to use 12-bit.
Which madvr dithering is the best to reduce any banding, Ive been using ordered? I have the power to go higher...
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Which madvr dithering is the best to reduce any banding, Ive been using ordered? I have the power to go higher...
Either Error Diffusion mode. I think most people use mode 2.
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Either Error Diffusion mode. I think most people use mode 2.
Ok thank you. I dont really ever notice any banding on the main feature but I often do on many of the start logos fade outs. Im sure many of these logos are of poor quality, have you noticed this?
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Ok thank you. I dont really ever notice any banding on the main feature but I often do on many of the start logos fade outs. Im sure many of these logos are of poor quality, have you noticed this?
Can't really say that I have.
But if there is banding in the source video then it will carry through. madVR dithering is not for removing banding that's inherently in the source.
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Hi everyone,
I am new on this forum. I recently purchased a NX9 and want to get everything out of it :).
A friend of my informed me about this topic which is great! Learned already a lot (but still digesting). To save costs so far (also to find out if I like to do the calibration myself) I purchased only a SpyderX. So far, only calibrated the gamma of my projector. But I am considering to also buy a x-Rite i1 Pro 2 (to allow me to do a good color calibration).
I notice(d) however that the i1 Pro 2 is out of production. Does anyone know if the i1 Pro 3 is also supported by the latest version of the calibration software or will this newer version be supported in the next software update?
Maybe a more general question, what is your experience wrt sensors vs calibration software? Do the newer software updates also require hardware updates? (I.e. how future proof am I when now spending money on a good sensor?)
Thanks in advance for your response.
Best regards, Jean
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Hi everyone,
I am new on this forum. I recently purchased a NX9 and want to get everything out of it :).
A friend of my informed me about this topic which is great! Learned already a lot (but still digesting). To save costs so far (also to find out if I like to do the calibration myself) I purchased only a SpyderX. So far, only calibrated the gamma of my projector. But I am considering to also buy a x-Rite i1 Pro 2 (to allow me to do a good color calibration).
I notice(d) however that the i1 Pro 2 is out of production. Does anyone know if the i1 Pro 3 is also supported by the latest version of the calibration software or will this newer version be supported in the next software update?
Maybe a more general question, what is your experience wrt sensors vs calibration software? Do the newer software updates also require hardware updates? (I.e. how future proof am I when now spending money on a good sensor?)
Thanks in advance for your response.
Best regards, Jean
Autocal does not support the Pro 3.
It probably will in the future at some time, but maybe / probably never for the NX9.
Which meter you buy depends on if you want to get into calibration more and if you want to spend a lot on calibration software or just use the awesome free calibration tools.
All the free tools support the Pro 2 great, but none support the Pro 3 yet and who knows when they ever will.
If you get the Pro 3 you will probably have to stick with stuff like CalMAN and Lightspace. If you go with the Pro 2 you can use free stuff like DisplayCAL and HCFR and of course the pay softwares too.
I would just get a cheap Pro 2 off eBay.
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Autocal does not support the Pro 3.
It probably will in the future at some time, but maybe / probably never for the NX9.
Which meter you buy depends on if you want to get into calibration more and if you want to spend a lot on calibration software or just use the awesome free calibration tools.
All the free tools support the Pro 2 great, but none support the Pro 3 yet and who knows when they ever will.
If you get the Pro 3 you will probably have to stick with stuff like CalMAN and Lightspace. If you go with the Pro 2 you can use free stuff like DisplayCAL and HCFR and of course the pay softwares too.
I would just get a cheap Pro 2 off eBay.
Hi SirMaster,
Thank you for your fast and clear answer ;). Just installed HCFR and will start using it this Thursday (together with my friend) just to find out the current status/performance of the projector (and if necessary to adjust). To be honest it already looks great, but with about 50 hours, I guess it could be(come) even better.
Best regards, Jean
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Hi SirMaster,
Thank you for your fast and clear answer ;). Just installed HCFR and will start using it this Thursday (together with my friend) just to find out the current status/performance of the projector (and if necessary to adjust). To be honest it already looks great, but with about 50 hours, I guess it could be(come) even better.
Best regards, Jean
I can basically guarantee that your gamma is too low and your red is undersaturated out of the box.
All JVC NX are, at least of the 4 NX5, 2 NX7, and 2 NX9 that I have measured and calibrated.
But you are right, they do look good. But they can still look noticeably better!
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Just in case @Manni01 still reads this, I post this here too :
To @Manni01 (https://www.avsforum.com/members/8019076/) : it has been found that the connection problems with the SpyderX are due to the lack (or not found) latest Microsoft Visual Studio 2015-2019 C++ runtime program : VCRuntime140.dll
If not already installed (Windows\System32) it can be dowloaded from Microsoft here ===> vc_redist.x86.exe (https://aka.ms/vs/16/release/vc_redist.x86.exe) (as Autocal is a x86 program).
It may be worth adding this info on the first page ?
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Hello
Is it possible to use xrite i1 display studio with autocal for color?
I just bought the spyderX for gama and it did a very good job for SDR.
When I log hdr 10 it looks different in gama
Will this be ok to save?
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Hello
Is it possible to use xrite i1 display studio with autocal for color?
I just bought the spyderX for gama and it did a very good job for SDR.
When I log hdr 10 it looks different in gama
Will this be ok to save?
It’s most likely OK, but it’s hard to tell when looking at an S-shape curve. That’s why it’s better to use gamma 2.2 even when calibrating HDR.
The X-rite colorimeters (i1Display Pro and its derivatives) require a set of modified DLL files to be used for Autocal. Search for “alternate meters for Autocal”.
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Hi all,
I recently bought a JVC N7 and I'm pretty new to this game of 'autocal'
I bought myself a spyderX and did a gamma calibration which went fine and result was subtle but present, the image already improved. As I read here, the spyderX is not suitable for color calibration so I bought myself a brand new (well, it's a couple years old but never used) EFI ES-2000 which should be the same meter as the i1pro2. Now here's my issue where I need some guidance; when I try to select the EFI sensor in the calibration tab of the JVC 'autocal' program it keeps telling me that it cannot detect the sensor. I tried to install the driver mentioned in this or another thread (i1_x64.sys) but it wouldn't help (windows 10). Is there something I missed or missing to get this sensor working with the autocal program? Please help ...
Thanks from a newby
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You must put the ES-2000 on its calibration cradle ( the one with the white tile ) before selecting it, then select it and wait for the sensor's light to blink briefly and then only move it to its measuring position.
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You must put the ES-2000 on its calibration cradle ( the one with the white tile ) before selecting it, then select it and wait for the sensor's light to blink briefly and then only move it to its measuring position.
Ah ok. Thank you for the info. Will try it right away :)
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Hi.
I currently have an i1 that I use for calibrating my RS2000. I am buying an i1 3 Pro for photography purposes, and would love to to have to keep both. Does anyone know of plans for the JVC calibration SW to support the i1 3?
Thanks in advance!
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Hello
a french professional calibrated the envy and sony 790 sony laser of a friend of mine in rec709 for hdr because the targets can be reached at 100 percent so no mapping error
the reason is that the dci is not attainable at 100% but at 87% so risk of error and the colors will not be respected is this a good step?
thank you
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Hello
a french professional calibrated the envy and sony 790 sony laser of a friend of mine in rec709 for hdr because the targets can be reached at 100 percent so no mapping error
the reason is that the dci is not attainable at 100% but at 87% so risk of error and the colors will not be respected is this a good step?
thank you
In my experience it's still worth targeting a wider gamut if the display can go wider than rec709.
If you are mapping the BT.2020 color in the HDR to rec709 then the out of gamut colors are by definition already are not correct.
If you target P3 or BT.2020 then more of the original HDR colors will be able to be presented correctly. As far as what happens to the out of gamut colors, that depends on how the display or calibration / LUT being used handles them.
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228 / 5000
yes for 3Dlut its envy
yes I think exactly the same thing as you but 2 French professionals support this theory so I would like to understand because for me we make more mistakes by staying in rec709 than in dci even if it is truncated
have you the last firmware for jvc 3.51 ?
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=2824.0
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FYI, Datacolor is having an anniversary sale, the pro X is $129 at B&H and elsewhere.
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Hi everyone,
Is it possible to calibrate a NX5 with an efi-es2000 and an i1d3 pro in hdr mode ? Are those meters able to do it the right way ?
Is jvc autocal software ready to do that ?
Many thanks
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Pardon a question that has likely been answered earlier in this thread (I searched, but didn't find it). With the v12 calibration software can I use the Spyder5 Pro or do I need to by the SpyderX or similar?
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Autocal V12 is for Spyder X and V11 is for Spyder 5
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Autocal V12 is for Spyder X and V11 is for Spyder 5
Thanks for confirming. Now I get to buy another piece of gear.
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Hello, all! Question regarding SpyderX calibration. Does the sensor itself need to be square (i.e. facing directly at the front) to the screen, or off to the side? The JVC documentation suggests off to the side, but it's not clear. Also, when angling it slightly upwards to avoid its own shadow, how does one know how far to point upwards? Is it slight? Thanks in advance!
Regards,
Safi
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Can the spyder 5 still work with firmware 3.50 as I was told you can't and must use spyderX.
Thanks
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Can the spyder 5 still work with firmware 3.50 as I was told you can't and must use spyderX.
Thanks
Officially no, the Spyder5 will not work with Autocal 12 which is required for firmware 3.50+.
But there are unofficial Autocal DLL hacks that will let you use the Spyder5.
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/using-alternative-meters-for-jvc-autocal-software.3169373/
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Hello Manni,
I think it is possible to improve even more the native contrast of the projector and to reduce the gamma drift linked to the DI Auto thanks to an external filter.
I have done various tests on an N5 and an RS2000, I explain.
For the contrast: When we set the color temperature on MaxBright with the RGB gains at maximum we get the native contrast of DILA panels, but the color temperature is wrong. To reach 6500k we have to strongly reduce the green and a little the blue. If we place a pink filter in front of the lens it reduces the green optically, we do not need to lower the green in the settings. This allows us to keep the native contrast of the panels and to have a color temperature of 6500k. Moreover, the filter reduces the black ground, and the lost brightness is recovered thanks to the gain of the green which will be higher with the filter. (There is surely something like that internally in the RS3000 to have even more contrast)
For the DI Auto gamma drift : if the RGB gains in MaxBright mode are equal for example all at the maximum, there is no more drift. the test is easy to do.
Now it remains to find a filter that has red and a little blue (so pink) of the right shade, a little like a Hoya FLD filter but a little more pink. to reach the equal RGB gain.
I am currently using a Tiffen Sky 1A filter but it is too clear not pink enough. but it is already an improvement.
There is also the Tiffen CC20M
What do you think about it?
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
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IMPORTANT WARNING: using the Autocal software changes internal tables in the projector. The first time you use it and save a calibration, it will create a .INIT file that contains the calibration tables as they were when the PJ left the factory. This .init file is saved in the folder you have selected in the software settings. There is no way to re-create this .INIT file if you lose it or delete it, yet restoring this .INIT file is the only way to revert the PJ to its factory state (doing a factory reset in the service menu only restores user settings, not calibration tables). So please make sure that you back up this .INIT and keep the back-up copy in a safe place.
I am having a minor/major panic attack... I cannot not remember (old man disease) where I put my original INIT file so I did a deep hard drive scan and found one file that is named "XXXXXXX_Init_2020-0923-1414.cbd" (X's are my serial number)... Is that my original INIT file?
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Hello Manni,
I think it is possible to improve even more the native contrast of the projector and to reduce the gamma drift linked to the DI Auto thanks to an external filter.
I have done various tests on an N5 and an RS2000, I explain.
For the contrast: When we set the color temperature on MaxBright with the RGB gains at maximum we get the native contrast of DILA panels, but the color temperature is wrong. To reach 6500k we have to strongly reduce the green and a little the blue. If we place a pink filter in front of the lens it reduces the green optically, we do not need to lower the green in the settings. This allows us to keep the native contrast of the panels and to have a color temperature of 6500k. Moreover, the filter reduces the black ground, and the lost brightness is recovered thanks to the gain of the green which will be higher with the filter. (There is surely something like that internally in the RS3000 to have even more contrast)
For the DI Auto gamma drift : if the RGB gains in MaxBright mode are equal for example all at the maximum, there is no more drift. the test is easy to do.
Now it remains to find a filter that has red and a little blue (so pink) of the right shade, a little like a Hoya FLD filter but a little more pink. to reach the equal RGB gain.
I am currently using a Tiffen Sky 1A filter but it is too clear not pink enough. but it is already an improvement.
There is also the Tiffen CC20M
What do you think about it?
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
That's pretty amazing. How are you attaching the Tiffen filter to the projector?
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I am having a minor/major panic attack... I cannot not remember (old man disease) where I put my original INIT file so I did a deep hard drive scan and found one file that is named "XXXXXXX_Init_2020-0923-1414.cbd" (X's are my serial number)... Is that my original INIT file?
Did you do your first calibration on September 23 2020? The date is also in the file name.
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Did you do your first calibration on September 23 2020? The date is also in the file name.
I am not quite sure. I think it was but that was the around that my laptop pretty much died and I had to get a new one. So I don't remember if I had done one before.
I thought that Manni had said that the INIT was only created once and at no other time so I figured that this was that file since it does have init in the file name.
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Looking back over my build thread and my old pictures I found some from the first time I tried AutoCal v11, and they all show 09232019. Either my laptop was recording the wrong date or when I switched to v12 it created another INIT file.
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Why panic ? After such a long time everything has changed in your projector, so what good is it to reload an init file ?
Do a new autocal and forget about the init file !
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Why panic ? After such a long time everything has changed in your projector, so what good is it to reload an init file ?
Do a new autocal and forget about the init file !
Not really a panic but more of a scientific concern... I wanted to do some 3D Luts for the Lumagen and wanted to try an absolutely clean JVC to compare it to an AutoCal'd version. If I don't have the original INIT file then I cannot do a true comparison.
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Not really a panic but more of a scientific concern... I wanted to do some 3D Luts for the Lumagen and wanted to try an absolutely clean JVC to compare it to an AutoCal'd version. If I don't have the original INIT file then I cannot do a true comparison.
Probably a good reason to save it to a dedicated thumb drive. After losing all my wine cellar inventory information to a computer crash and a corrupt backup, I save it on 4 dedicated thumb drives now!
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Probably a good reason to save it to a dedicated thumb drive. After losing all my wine cellar inventory information to a computer crash and a corrupt backup, I save it on 4 dedicated thumb drives now!
Tell me about it... I am usually pretty good at saving all important files in a cloud based 3-2-1.
BUT... using that logic I began to search my drives again and sure enough I found the very first INIT file.... XXXXXXXX_Init_2019-0923-1849.cbd in a folder that I had somehow buried deep into another totally unrelated folder. Either my old man brain is really getting bad or I started saving stuff nilly willy when I realized my laptop was dying quickly. Kinda weird that they were exactly one-year apart.
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That's pretty amazing. How are you attaching the Tiffen filter to the projector?
With an adapter ring that I made with 3D printer, it allows to put a 77mm filter on the JVC.
I continue my tests, but the perfect shade for this projector is the filter shade "Lee 248 Half minus green". But it exists only in gelatin. Otherwise a CC15M filter is the closest. But in glass I find only CC10M and CC20M. I will see with a manufacturer of glass if it is possible to make the same shade as the filter Lee 248 but in glass. would be ideal.
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Probably a good reason to save it to a dedicated thumb drive. After losing all my wine cellar inventory information to a computer crash and a corrupt backup, I save it on 4 dedicated thumb drives now!
I have 4 drives that I rotate every month backing up my data on 2 computers and 1 USB drive. Unfortunately my credit union of 30 years relocated the Houston office and I lost my offsite storage!
I learned to save early and often decades ago.
That's why I got a UPS for my Compaq Portable in 1984/85 because of power outages brought about when a new section of homes where being built. I got bit one time. Fortunately I had flow charts and notes and only had to re-key the code!
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With an adapter ring that I made with 3D printer, it allows to put a 77mm filter on the JVC.
I continue my tests, but the perfect shade for this projector is the filter shade "Lee 248 Half minus green". But it exists only in gelatin. Otherwise a CC15M filter is the closest. But in glass I find only CC10M and CC20M. I will see with a manufacturer of glass if it is possible to make the same shade as the filter Lee 248 but in glass. would be ideal.
On a N5 a CC15M filter should be enough, I just tested on a RS2000 and it's not enough, I need a CC20M that I haven't received yet. But I tested with a Tiffen FLD which is quite dark and it allows me to have 51 nits on 103 inches (screen 0.9) with the RGB gains almost at the maximum I get 6500k, so native contrast of the panels and there is no more color drift related to the auto iris. the blacks are very black !!!!
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Quick question. Tried reading through the pages of questions/answers but there’s a lot to read.
#1- When calibrating for SDR gamma…can I select “apply to all” and expect this to take care of the gamma in HDR as well? (Even if sdr and hdr have low/high lamp modes respectively)
#2- my jvc is version 3.5, if I’m about to auto calibrate, should I update to version 3.52? Read something it fixed things in auto cal (or made things run better)
Thanks for all the help. This page has been very helpful. Especially since this will be my first attempt at calibration.
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#1 No. Different lamps modes are separate.
#2 Sort of. Seems like it is accurate without the update.
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#1 No. Different lamps modes are separate.
#2 Sort of. Seems like it is accurate without the update.
Thanks
i have the spiderX meter. Now just looking for the i1basic pro 2 meter. I see amazon has it but says “usually delivers within 5 months”
is there a certain revision I should be looking for? I know E is the latest (how do I check which revision)
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Thanks
i have the spiderX meter. Now just looking for the i1basic pro 2 meter. I see amazon has it but says “usually delivers within 5 months”
is there a certain revision I should be looking for? I know E is the latest (how do I check which revision)
Nevermind. Found the answer I was looking for. The Rev E is basically the i1 pro 2.
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Newby here. Which sensor is the preferred one? The Spyder or the Eye One?
I have been using a dedicated i1 with a NEC monitor for Photoshop work. It is several years old and has specific firmware so I think I need a new one for the JVC. Is one better? Looks like the Spyder is needed for some features.
Kevin
PS reading the first part of this thread but still, which is the preferred sensor. Based on what I have read so far, each is better for different things.
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Looks like I desperately need to calibrate the new RS1000. Out of the box, it does not throw as good of a picture on 1080P content as the PJ it replaces. Yes, it does stay reliably on which the old one did not but, the picture is not as good at the calibrated Vango with an old Lumagen Mini.
I am thinking a cheap laptop but am still not sure which sensor. I am used to the xrite as there is a dedicated version with my NEC monitor I use for Photoshop work.
Any thoughts?
Kevin
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Im about to start my first ever autocal on my NX9 and Im very nervous! I havent really ever followed this thread as it looks a bit daunting......I bought the SpyderXpro and have just watched this youtube video and thought it very good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taD0-TmORus&ab_channel=TheCasualCinephile
I feel as if I can follow his instructions, what do you guys on here think of the video?
I know many of the experts always say the spyder is no good for colour but around 20 mins on the video he mentions that JVC and Chris from JVC actually recommend the Spyder. Chris says that after autocal the result will be actually better than the default from the projector, using the Spyder. Again what are your thoughts:-X
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My Spyder will be here this week. I am going to try it. I watched a video on the web that not only used a Spyder X Pro but then did measurements with a higher end colorimeter and the results were close. Not perfect but very close for color. With the deal that I just got on a Spyder (about $100 US) I thought I would try.
I am going to follow the instructions for saving the original set up file to the T and back it us everywhere.
I think one of the problems with the Spyder is that they can vary. Tom Huffman of Chromapure sells some Spyder Xs that have be measured against a better colorimeter. Then puts in that compensation in his software. I was ready to pull the trigger on Tom's software and a different sensor from him but with a $100 Spyder, I thought I would give it a try.
Kevin
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Well, I used autocal and the Spyder X Pro. The result is good. Could it be better? Probably but for $100 it was well worth it. I did have issues trying to direct connect the new Dell Laptop to the projector. (I think it was settings in Windows) Connected the projector to my network and used wifi from the computer and had no problems. It does look good. One problem noted is that the differences in the quality of the feeds on this projector are more noticeable than on my Vango.
Looking forward to 4K sources. I need to upgrade my Pre/Pro but I am happy. I may get better software and/or a better sensor in the future but this is pretty darned good.
Kevin
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Im very new to using autocal on my NX9 and so far only used the Spyder X Pro for gamma and colour. I have a EFI ES-2000 Spectrophotometer that I have since bought for colour only but its on its way from the UK.
My question is, I did the calibration for HDR with the filter set to wide and saved, then I did another with the filter set to normal for HDR and saved. Does this mean that if I switch between normal and wide they my NX9 will always display both as calibrated or is it only the last one I saved?
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I've calibrated gamma with spyderx several times but I picked up an i1pro2 (rev E) and I cannot get past the darn "Cannot detect the sensor". I'm hitting the "measure" button after clicking the sensor in the app. I've tried different timing, holding the button, etc. The lights on the i1pro2 do blink a couple times. I've tried both the 2006 and 2009 drivers. I tried two different computers including one that I'm sure can drive a lot of power on the USB ports. I'm at a loss. Maybe my sensor is bad? It looks unused. Is there some other free software I could try just to make sure the sensor is ok?
steve
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Im about to start my first ever autocal on my NX9 and Im very nervous! I havent really ever followed this thread as it looks a bit daunting......I bought the SpyderXpro and have just watched this youtube video and thought it very good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taD0-TmORus&ab_channel=TheCasualCinephile
I feel as if I can follow his instructions, what do you guys on here think of the video?
I know many of the experts always say the spyder is no good for colour but around 20 mins on the video he mentions that JVC and Chris from JVC actually recommend the Spyder. Chris says that after autocal the result will be actually better than the default from the projector, using the Spyder. Again what are your thoughts:-X
That YouTube tutorial is perfect for those of us with the NX series (and possibly more), using the Spyder X. He shows that the Spyder X sensor faces the screen, not the projector like the previous generation of Spyder did. There are a few things left out, such as the impact of the "Environment" measurements and adjustments, but he's covered the bases pretty well. I also watched the discussion with Chris from JVC. The YouTube tutorial tracks properly with Chris' comments except for one thing: Chris commented that he always runs his projector in High Lamp mode, even for SD content. That's the first time I've heard that recommendation. Most JVC owners seem to run SD content with the lamp in Low Power Mode. Anyone have further thoughts on this topic? I'd also appreciate any comments about the Environment adjustments that are part of the JVC Auto-Cal software. I'm running an NX-7. It's my 3rd JVC and 6th HT Projector. Since most of us don't perform a calibration more than once or twice a year, that YouTube tutorial should be bookmarked. It's a great "refresher" and helped me perform a new auto-cal individually for SD and HD content. The picture is improved (Lamp at 375 hours).
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I've calibrated gamma with spyderx several times but I picked up an i1pro2 (rev E) and I cannot get past the darn "Cannot detect the sensor". I'm hitting the "measure" button after clicking the sensor in the app. I've tried different timing, holding the button, etc. The lights on the i1pro2 do blink a couple times. I've tried both the 2006 and 2009 drivers. I tried two different computers including one that I'm sure can drive a lot of power on the USB ports. I'm at a loss. Maybe my sensor is bad? It looks unused. Is there some other free software I could try just to make sure the sensor is ok?
steve
Ah, bummer, the sensor is defective. I found and downloaded the i1 diagnostic program and when it starts to calibrate it fails every time. Too late to return too (bought used). If anyone has suggestions I will take apart. The unit is pretty pristine, maybe there is something simple awry from day one and it was never used.
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Ah, bummer, the sensor is defective. I found and downloaded the i1 diagnostic program and when it starts to calibrate it fails every time. Too late to return too (bought used). If anyone has suggestions I will take apart. The unit is pretty pristine, maybe there is something simple awry from day one and it was never used.
I had this problem too the first time I used mine, the i1diagnostic failed because the usb port was not giving enough power, it went OK when I plugged it into a USB 3 port.
But yours may indeed be defective unfortunately :-X
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What doe the i1 pro2 working sensor look like when you do the calibration if you look at it? Mine does a faint greenish blink. Barely visible, I have to turn lights off or cup my hand around it to see it. It does not seem like enough light to take a calibration read to me. My guess is the bulb(s) have failed.
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I performed my first autocal on my NX7 using a Spyder X and these were my results. Should I be concerned that the color temp is not closer to 6500k?
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What doe the i1 pro2 working sensor look like when you do the calibration if you look at it? Mine does a faint greenish blink. Barely visible, I have to turn lights off or cup my hand around it to see it. It does not seem like enough light to take a calibration read to me. My guess is the bulb(s) have failed.
X-rite wants $750 for a general repair which is crazy. Any other options out there? Otherwise I will disassemble and investigate myself since it is worthless :-).
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Are you sure the USB cable is OK ?
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Here is a short video of the calibration light when DisplayCal does the i1Pro2 self calibration, notice the green stray light on my desk top :
i1Pro2 self calibration light (https://v1.casimages.com/v/2021/12/28//PmpcNb-20211228-164451.mp4)
There's one more thing you can do is remove the black and round protection cap and check that the small lens is clean, be careful it is rather stiff to remove.
( General maintenance : pages 34 and 35 of the x-rite i1 Pro user guide )
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Thanks so much for the video. Mine does seem a little different. There is no light through the lens. With the cover off there is light all around it. With that cover on the light is barely visible. Lens looks clean. There is a clear lens in the cap that comes off too. That was a bit dirty but removing and/or cleaning it didn’t help. The light here could be ok. Maybe is an issue with the sensor itself. I do see kits online for replacing the lights but I don’t know it seems lit all around. My phone doesn’t seem to create a video that the forum can accept. I’ll see if I can convert one.
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My video is only a direct url link to the place where it is stored as an mp4, indeed the forum itself does not accept MP4s.
If there's light all around but not thru the lens that could mean that something has been displaced.
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My video is only a direct url link to the place where it is stored as an mp4, indeed the forum itself does not accept MP4s.
If there's light all around but not thru the lens that could mean that something has been displaced.
Ah, ok try these. They are MOV's from iphone, hopefully they work:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6cys6nrjz346x2h/Video%20Dec%2028%2C%207%2012%2001%20PM.mov?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/6cys6nrjz346x2h/Video Dec 28%2C 7 12 01 PM.mov?dl=0)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k8ckzm7e3l2s7d1/Video%20Dec%2028%2C%207%2012%2022%20PM.mov?dl=0
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/k8ckzm7e3l2s7d1/Video Dec 28%2C 7 12 22 PM.mov?dl=0)steve
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From your first video I notice that your limiting aperture cover is not seated correctly, it is turned almost 120° clockwise, the small arrow on its rim should be facing the closed ring position on the body like my attached picture.
Not sure that will make a difference, but who knows.
Also there seems to be plenty of light.
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Does the cradle have a matching serial number as the meter itself? Did you place the meter on the exposed white tile while starting autocal, and when calibrating it?
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This isn’t directly related to calibration, but I thought the calibrators in this forum are the likeliest to have qualitative data: My projector is behind the back wall. I was thinking of getting glass (home theater glass.com) to put in the hole between the projector and the back wall. This will keep fan noise out and home theater sound in. Folks who use them really like them. My questions: does the glass have impacts that can be seen with the naked eye, or any potential impacts that can be fixed via calibration, or any changes in the way calibration is done?
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I've just run a couple of Autocals on my JVC N5 and I want to make sure that I did it the right way.
I use a Calibrite Colorchecker Display Pro for both gamma and colour using the customs DLLs. And I use SirMaster's Qalif Spectro .edr files for low and high lamp without filter.
I use madVR to from HTPC (Nvidia 3060TI) through Vertex2 to watch the following content:
- Movies 4K HDR: User 2, BT.2020, Gamma 2.4, 6500K, High Lamp, Aperture 0 Manual
- Movies 4K SDR and 1080p SDR: User 1, Rec.709, Gamma 2.4, 6500K, Low Lamp, Aperture 0 or -1 Manual
- Sports 1080p: Natural, Rec.709, Gamma 2.2, 6500K, Low Lamp, Aperture 0 Manual
As I understand, it should only be necessary to do two calibrations. One for High Lamp BT.2020 and one for Low Lamp Rec.709. Each calibration includes gamma and colour run separately on the CCDP with and without the diffuser cap.
I have reset all the manual changes done in a previous unsuccessful calibration by a pro calibrator as I didn't like the result.
I first ran a Autocal calibration of User1, Rec.709, Gamma 2.4, 6500K, Low Lamp, Aperture 0. When I watched some content afterwards it was quite dark. This was the case even if I changed the gamma on the N5 to 2.2. I then reran the calibration using Gamma 2.2 and now the content much brighter even with gamma set at 2.4. I had thought from reading the beginning of this thread, that one calibration would be sufficient for all gamma choices and all Picture Modes. Is that not correct?
Or could it be related to the fact, that in the calibration page in madVR settings, I've selected that the display is calibrated to gamma power curve 2.2?
I don't use that many different combinations, so I wouldn't mind running a calibration for each one. However, I'd prefer to do it the right way.
What is the best way handle this. Feel free to point to a previous answer.
Thanks :-)
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Before I go buy a laptop for autocal. Can someone tell me if jvc autocal works with windows 11? So I know if I should shop for a laptop with windows 10/11
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This isn’t directly related to calibration, but I thought the calibrators in this forum are the likeliest to have qualitative data: My projector is behind the back wall. I was thinking of getting glass (home theater glass.com) to put in the hole between the projector and the back wall. This will keep fan noise out and home theater sound in. Folks who use them really like them. My questions: does the glass have impacts that can be seen with the naked eye, or any potential impacts that can be fixed via calibration, or any changes in the way calibration is done?
I have glass in front of my projector (which is in a room behind the back wall). I do not see any degradation of the image quality. Before I decided to install the glass, I looked up a number of threads in the other forum, and from what I've seen, everyone who has added glass has seen no degradation in image quality. Whether or not a meter can tell the difference, I don't know. But with just the naked eye, I haven't noticed any difference. It's wonderful not hearing the projector fan noise anymore. I never used to run my JVC in high lamp mode. Now, even high lamp mode is not audible.
EDIT: it's also made audio calibration easier. I no longer have to power off my projector when doing audio calibration.
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Just bought the efi es2000 meter. Do I install x rites i1pro 2 drivers or does the es2000 have its own driver?
Sorry I know dumb question.
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Just bought the efi es2000 meter. Do I install x rites i1pro 2 drivers or does the es2000 have its own driver?
Sorry I know dumb question.
Nevermind. Figured it out. I just downloaded the x-rite i1Diagnostics tool and it did it for me.
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Just bought an EFI ES200 meter on ebay to use with AutoCal. If I gently shake it there is a rattle sound. Can anyone please confirm if this is normal? Does anyone else's make a rattle noise? Sounds like a shutter.
It looks brand new and passes all diagnostics but iDiagnostics reports 8,877 lamp burn seconds. Is that high?
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Hi all,
Followed Manni's fantastic instructions to autocal my NX7. Used a spyderX for gamma (quality mode) and an ipro 2 for color, and performed calibrations for 709 and 2020. After reviewing the results I have run into a couple of issues with my 709 results that I'm trying to address and am unsure about.
1) greyscale balance is great at 50%+ but readings at lower than that have significant color temp drift which gets more extreme as luminance decreases. This issue I believe can be addressed by performing a manual gamma calibration through the autocal software
2) the peak points of my gamut readings match the expected 709 space exactly, they're spot on, but running a multi-point test for the gamut revealed substantially higher saturation than expected for my 80, 60, 40, 20% saturation points, with the error being uniform across all colors. This issue I'm having difficulty with. If I decrease the saturation through the color profile menu, I end up getting a gamut that is significantly smaller than the 709 space at 100%, but with accurate measurements with saturations below that. Is there any way to resolve this that you know of?
Thanks for taking the time to read this and for any help you can offer :)
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Success depends upon many details. Some not yet mentioned. In general I would say, for the greyscale with the Spider X make sure it is well positioned (it has a 3.4” diameter target at 12” distance) then zoom in the image as far as possible with the projector to maximize the light. Also make sure the iris is open all the way to get the most light. I think I had to have 225 nits on 100% white to get good readings down at 10 ire. Also try doing a normal instead of quality calibration first to see if that works. Start simple.
No comment on the saturation issue other than the color cal has to be done at the iris setting you think will give about 65 nits post-color calibration.
I have done mostly the same as you. My opinion? After a well done AutoCal there should be very little touch up on either gamma or gamut. If you need a lot of touch up after autocal it may be a bad autocal. Of course I am ignoring obvious issues with the equipment and assume the setup is sound.
In my case a Color Autocal with an i1Pro2 actually increased overall brightness a bit. If you get weird results consider reloading the init file and starting over.
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Success depends upon many details. Some not yet mentioned. In general I would say, for the greyscale with the Spider X make sure it is well positioned (it has a 3.4” diameter target at 12” distance) then zoom in the image as far as possible with the projector to maximize the light. Also make sure the iris is open all the way to get the most light. I think I had to have 225 nits on 100% white to get good readings down at 10 ire. Also try doing a normal instead of quality calibration first to see if that works. Start simple.
No comment on the saturation issue other than the color cal has to be done at the iris setting you think will give about 65 nits post-color calibration.
I have done mostly the same as you. My opinion? After a well done AutoCal there should be very little touch up on either gamma or gamut. If you need a lot of touch up after autocal it may be a bad autocal. Of course I am ignoring obvious issues with the equipment and assume the setup is sound.
In my case a Color Autocal with an i1Pro2 actually increased overall brightness a bit. If you get weird results consider reloading the init file and starting over.
Thank you very much for the thoughtful reply. I'll do as you suggested and try zooming in (I'm assuming by "zoom in" here you mean to make the resulting image smaller, since you said this was to increase brightness) and rerun my gamma calibrations, both normal and quality.
Worst case, I restore the init like you also suggested and try again. Unfortunately I only have access to the i1pro2 and the spyderx so if there is a significant problem with one of them there's no way I can think of to determine which equipment is at fault. I'm basing my greyscale conclusions on the readings of the i1pro2 in both the autocal color results and post calibration readings with CALMAN. Of course, I've also read that the i1pro2 performs very poorly with low brightness (hence using spyderx for gamma), so it could be that the greyscale is fine and the i1pro2 is faulty. Which would be unfortunate, since it is a rather expensive bit of gear that I bought solely for the purpose of calibrating my nx7.
One thing that was interesting to me was that on my gamma runs, the first reading for each color came up 0. Before my nx7 I had an rs910u and, even though it's been quite a while, I do distinctly remember being able to get a positive value for the first read. So you may be right that I simply need to intensify the image by decreasing its size.
My first round of calibrations were already done on high lamp power with a fully open (on 0) manual iris. I suppose it's also possible that the bulb that came with the projector is just no good and darker than it should be which could mess with the calibration.
I'll report the results for the re-run of the gamma with your recommendations. Here's hoping it also somehow fixes the color issue too. If anyone has any further recommendations for either issue I'd love to hear them.
Thanks again!
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From my limited experience first reading at 0 really throws things off. So, yeah making the image small as possible (and brightest) will likely help gamma/grayscale. I would also leave it zoomed when working on gamma outside of AutoCal (Calman). I get more consistent results that way. Don’t be tempted to move the spyder close to the screen to “see more brightness” as that makes the viewing window smaller and has been less consistent for me. Stick to 12”ish. The spyder may fall just out of the right side of the AutoCal orange box but - I just went with it. My zoomed nits at 100% white was like 225.
Nits for 100% white SDR should target 65 post cal (unzoomed of course). That should require an iris reduction of some amount. Nits for HDR for me is about 110-120 iris at zero. So if you are in those ballparks it likely the bulb is ok. Could be something else though.
As far as the meters you could measure and write down RGBW values for both then plot them. They will probably be pretty close. That might give confidence the meters are fine. Others would probably recommend you eventually calibrate the spyder against the i1pro2. I’ve compared a six yr old quite used i1Pro2 against an unused 4 yr old i1Pro2 against a 3 yr old i1D3 and all three were all so close on the primaries I couldnt figure out why I would need to correct the i1D3. Maybe I’m just lucky but they seem to generally be reliable.
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From my limited experience first reading at 0 really throws things off. So, yeah making the image small as possible (and brightest) will likely help gamma/grayscale. I would also leave it zoomed when working on gamma outside of AutoCal (Calman). I get more consistent results that way. Don’t be tempted to move the spyder close to the screen to “see more brightness” as that makes the viewing window smaller and has been less consistent for me. Stick to 12”ish. The spyder may fall just out of the right side of the AutoCal orange box but - I just went with it. My zoomed nits at 100% white was like 225.
Nits for 100% white SDR should target 65 post cal (unzoomed of course). That should require an iris reduction of some amount. Nits for HDR for me is about 110-120 iris at zero. So if you are in those ballparks it likely the bulb is ok. Could be something else though.
As far as the meters you could measure and write down RGBW values for both then plot them. They will probably be pretty close. That might give confidence the meters are fine. Others would probably recommend you eventually calibrate the spyder against the i1pro2. I’ve compared a six yr old quite used i1Pro2 against an unused 4 yr old i1Pro2 against a 3 yr old i1D3 and all three were all so close on the primaries I couldnt figure out why I would need to correct the i1D3. Maybe I’m just lucky but they seem to generally be reliable.
Couple of updates here:
1. I found out that the saturation issue was because I had the "color" setting turned up to 21 somehow so that was purely me being an idiot. I don't remember ever setting color to any value so I'm kind of at a loss as to how this happened
2. I figured out (somewhat) what was going on with my greyscale color temps. Neither the spyder x nor the ipro were giving inaccurate readings. Instead, it seems that doing the gamma and color profiling in 2 steps, first gamma with spyderx and then color with ipro, was causing the calibration software to produce very bad results. The spyderx would perfectly calibrate gamma, with good color temps and then the color profiling step would totally botch those altering them significantly after the color profiling. Discovered this after closely watching the pre-calibration log values during color profiling. I tried the calibration again with color+gamma on the ipro and this did not produce the same error (although the calibration results were not as good doing it all in one step). So I'm not really sure how to proceed from here. Any thoughts on this?
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Hi,
I have done a calibration using the spyderX for both gamma and color on my rs1000. I just bought a efi es2000 meter, I’m wondering if I need to restore the INIT backup file before doing another calibration or can I just do the calibration using the spyderX for gamma and the es2000 for color?
Thanks
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Couple of updates here:
1. I found out that the saturation issue was because I had the "color" setting turned up to 21 somehow so that was purely me being an idiot. I don't remember ever setting color to any value so I'm kind of at a loss as to how this happened
2. I figured out (somewhat) what was going on with my greyscale color temps. Neither the spyder x nor the ipro were giving inaccurate readings. Instead, it seems that doing the gamma and color profiling in 2 steps, first gamma with spyderx and then color with ipro, was causing the calibration software to produce very bad results. The spyderx would perfectly calibrate gamma, with good color temps and then the color profiling step would totally botch those altering them significantly after the color profiling. Discovered this after closely watching the pre-calibration log values during color profiling. I tried the calibration again with color+gamma on the ipro and this did not produce the same error (although the calibration results were not as good doing it all in one step). So I'm not really sure how to proceed from here. Any thoughts on this?
Couple things come to mind. When doing color make sure to set zoom and iris to whatever you will have the JVC at when watching. Consider checking one meter against the other by measuring an RGBW set. It may be helpful to plot them on top of each other for visual confirmation. If both meters are close to each other then it is something in the setup or meter positioning (my opinion). Run a log only with each meter and compare. Changing the iris affected the grayscale for me as wel but only a tiny bit. I used the gains/offsets in the JVC to compensate (only one or two clicks for each color) for the iris change then touched it up which ChromaPure (or whatever you use).
Keep the i1Pro a reasonable distance (like 1-2’) away from the screen even if it is outside the orange box. I found that too close can mess things up.
If you do gamma and color with the same meter it is best to run a gamma only (with zoom, no iris) followed by a color only (no zoom, with iris). I assume that is what you did.
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Hi,
I have done a calibration using the spyderX for both gamma and color on my rs1000. I just bought a efi es2000 meter, I’m wondering if I need to restore the INIT backup file before doing another calibration or can I just do the calibration using the spyderX for gamma and the es2000 for color?
Thanks
I only restored the init file if something looked really messed up. But in general, for routine calibration I don’t think you have to blow it away with the init file every time. For the same settings the software should overwrite the settings that were there.
One comment in reply to both of the above posts. Before calibration, from the JVC menu make sure to “Reset” the CMS rather than manually putting all settings back to zero. It has been mentioned that the Reset can clear out hidden legacy adjustments that may reside in the JVC but not obvious on the GUI.
And - remember, during JVC calibration the software ignores any gains/offsets but then during the final confirmation it does apply those so while the calibration may have gone well the actual results look bad.
Sorry if comments are not complete but I am typing this out on my phone.
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Is there a way to do a manual calibration of the grayscale in HDR using the gamma editor in autocal.
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Hi newbie here,
Just want to clarify I understand the full calibration process correctly. With the manni's autocal guide and the Calibration for dummies (quite old guide though) on the other forum, my understanding is that:
1. I will run the JVC autocal as the first step, autocal test patterns are from the projector internal generator and settings are stored on the projector after the autocal, and applied to both HDMI sockets. - This is to ensure JVC responses to the signal correctly and gamma curves are all good.
2. Then with my BD/media players, OPPO and Zidoo, to separately play brightness and contract patterns ( I use AVCHD and Mechanic HDR10) to set black level and white clipping correctly. - This is to eliminate external source difference?
3. Is there a need to further fine tune the calibration by playing test patterns from OPPO/Zidoo and manually change the settings with HCFR measurements? Does the HDMI output from different devices vary a lot?
Any input and comments are much appreciated.
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Hi newbie here,
Just want to clarify I understand the full calibration process correctly. With the manni's autocal guide and the Calibration for dummies (quite old guide though) on the other forum, my understanding is that:
1. I will run the JVC autocal as the first step, autocal test patterns are from the projector internal generator and settings are stored on the projector after the autocal, and applied to both HDMI sockets. - This is to ensure JVC responses to the signal correctly and gamma curves are all good.
2. Then with my BD/media players, OPPO and Zidoo, to separately play brightness and contract patterns ( I use AVCHD and Mechanic HDR10) to set black level and white clipping correctly. - This is to eliminate external source difference?
3. Is there a need to further fine tune the calibration by playing test patterns from OPPO/Zidoo and manually change the settings with HCFR measurements? Does the HDMI output from different devices vary a lot?
Any input and comments are much appreciated.
You are correct. You can use HCFR if you'd like to make minor adjustments but in a lot of cases, it isn't necessary.
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Great, I will then just focus on getting the autocal done correctly :)
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I’m constantly getting zero value for Red and Green gamma autocal at step1. I’ve moved SpyderX between 15-40cm off screen with no luck, and zoom at minimum too. PJ is about 5.8m away and projecting 135” with 1.35 gain. The gamma autocal result seems okay but I read that zero value readings should be avoided- any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
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I'm not sure who can help you with this.
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No worries, sorted now.
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No worries, sorted now.
How? I worked it around by using i1d3 facing the projector (with the patched tool) but it would be interesting to understand how to solve it with a Spyder X facing the screen.
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Recently purchased a new SpyderX Pro and used EFI ES-2000 (X-Rite i1Pro 2). I am attempting to run AutoCal now after reading the many instructions/comments in this thread, along with various other resources. I'm starting with a gamma calibration using the SpyderX for SDR/Low Lamp/No Filter/Iris=0 profile. I have mounted the SpyderX on tripod, approximately 11 inches from the screen, pointing slightly up to avoid it's shadow. The screen/meter are always within the orange box when I choose the SpyderX in the AutoCal software. I can run the AutoCal calibration and it "successfully" completes. But every calibration attempt results in a Zero (0) reading for Gamma Step 1 for all colors (Red, Green, Blue). What are the tricks to try to get this to read a non-zero value in Step 1?
I've tried the following:
- Configured Gamma settings to run 'Speed', 'Normal', and 'Quality' calibrations (9 Steps, 20ish Steps, 33 Steps)
- Different positions/tilts of the meter, including moving it back to about 16"
- Changing to High Lamp to increase brightness.
- Zoomed the projector as far as possible while still having the meter positioned to read close to the center of the projected image.
- Removed the USB extension cable connecting the SpyderX meter to my laptop (Lenovo ThinkPad, Windows 10)
But nothing I've done results in a non-zero value for any Gamma Step 1 for any color.
Any tips/tricks anyone can offer?
Is it possible I received a "bad" SpyderX Pro meter and I should try to return for a different one? I did buy it new a few months ago when it was on sale, but I didn't open it until yesterday when I got around to running the calibrations. Hopefully I can still return/replace it if the consensus is that it's a 'bad" sample.
Thanks in advance!
Bryan
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Yes sometimes the apyders are out of spec. Maybe try another.
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What is current Best Practices for Calibration after replacing the bulb? In the past, it was 'wait until 100hrs' before calibrating. Is that still the Best Practice?
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What is current Best Practices for Calibration after replacing the bulb? In the past, it was 'wait until 100hrs' before calibrating. Is that still the Best Practice?
A professional calibration or autocal?
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Autocal for a new bulb is what I'm asking about
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Autocal for a new bulb is what I'm asking about
I'd wait for the bulb to settle a bit because it will lose brightness. Maybe 25 or 30 hours or so.
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Hi Guys,
I am attempting to auto calibrate my JVC N7 projector for the first time.
The settings on the calibration software require that I enter the screen size. Should I enter the size for a 1.78 screen or my actual 2.35 screen?
Thanks for your advice.
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After replacing the original bulb in my RS2000/NX7, I used Auto-Cal with the bulb at 87hrs. After all the readings are taken, the Autocal program asks if the user wants to SAVE the data. After selecting SAVE, a process starts; but at about 25% the Auto-Cal program crashes. I had not experienced this when using AutoCal on my old bulb. I did make one change before running the calibration: I changed 'Calibration Result' to 'Individual'. Have any of you experienced AutoCal suddenly terminating during the SAVE process? (During the measurement and calculation phase of AutoCal, one of the scrolling text entries says 'Saving data to projector' or something like that). I'm hoping the abrupt termination of the program doesn't mean the projector has not been modified. Thanks in advance.
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Hi JohnG,
Unfortunately, I am unable to provide you with an answer to your problem, but I noticed that, like me, you have a 2.35 screen. Do you enter in the Autocal Settings/Screen Size for aspect 2.35 ratio , or do you enter the equivalent size (same width) for a 16:9 screen?
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Hi JohnG,
Unfortunately, I am unable to provide you with an answer to your problem, but I noticed that, like me, you have a 2.35 screen. Do you enter in the Autocal Settings/Screen Size for aspect 2.35 ratio , or do you enter the equivalent size (same width) for a 16:9 screen?
Excellent Question! I do not have an a-lens, so it's the Zoom method (CIH) for me. For Auto-Cal I use my actual screen width, but calculate based upon a 16:9 screen, as recommended in various tutorials. Regarding my original question, I'll be testing today and will post the results.
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Excellent Question! I do not have an a-lens, so it's the Zoom method (CIH) for me. For Auto-Cal I use my actual screen width, but calculate based upon a 16:9 screen, as recommended in various tutorials. Regarding my original question, I'll be testing today and will post the results.
Thanks for your reply, JohnG. I guess as much that a 16:9 screen equivalent dimension has to be used. It makes sense.
I hope you get your crashing Autocal issue sorted out.
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Hi Everyone 8)
This is my first post here, and I hope this topic is still active.
I’ve been reading a lot on the forum and carefully followed all the recommended steps before starting the calibration. However, I’ve encountered some strange issues that I’d like to share with you, and I would really appreciate your help.
Setup Details
- Projector: JVC DLA-NX9 (European model)
- Calibration Software: JVC Autocal v12
- Laptop: Lenovo ThinkPad P53 running Windows 11 Pro
- Sensors Used: Spyder X and X-Rite i1Pro2 Revision E
- Firmware: Latest version installed on the JVC
- Lamp Hours: First bulb, approximately 800 hours
- Stewart Screen studiotek 130G3
The Problem
I started with gamma calibration using the Spyder X, followed by color calibration with the i1Pro2. While the calibration reports appear to be good, I notice very strange black levels (gamma) when playing content. I would describe these issues as "artifacts," and they are visible in both SDR and HDR10 content.
What I’ve Tried So Far
- Re-ran the calibration multiple times.
- Changed the meter’s position, including different locations, angles, and heights.
- Despite all adjustments, the measurements consistently looked good, but the issue persisted when playing content.
For reference, I’m using an Oppo 203 UHD player to play original discs. In the end, I restored the
Init back-up file, and everything looked fine again. However, after a few days, I repeated the calibration and ran into the same black-level problem.
Does anyone have any idea what might be going wrong here? I’m puzzled by the fact that the reports look fine, but real content still shows these black-level artifacts.
Thanks in advance for your time and suggestions!
The first picture below was taken after restoring the original Init backup file. The second picture shows the issue that occurs after using Autocal.
(https://thumbs-eu-west-1.myalbum.io/photo/360/d341a3f7-2fa7-4e6e-81db-060751287f45.jpg)
(https://thumbs-eu-west-1.myalbum.io/photo/360/c6be1007-e5de-4838-b4c9-0f56a20567e3.jpg)
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Hi Everyone 8)
This is my first post here, and I hope this topic is still active.
I’ve been reading a lot on the forum and carefully followed all the recommended steps before starting the calibration. However, I’ve encountered some strange issues that I’d like to share with you, and I would really appreciate your help.
Setup Details
- Projector: JVC DLA-NX9 (European model)
- Calibration Software: JVC Autocal v12
- Laptop: Lenovo ThinkPad P53 running Windows 11 Pro
- Sensors Used: Spyder X and X-Rite i1Pro2 Revision E
- Firmware: Latest version installed on the JVC
- Lamp Hours: First bulb, approximately 800 hours
- Stewart Screen studiotek 130G3
The Problem
I started with gamma calibration using the Spyder X, followed by color calibration with the i1Pro2. While the calibration reports appear to be good, I notice very strange black levels (gamma) when playing content. I would describe these issues as "artifacts," and they are visible in both SDR and HDR10 content.
What I’ve Tried So Far
- Re-ran the calibration multiple times.
- Changed the meter’s position, including different locations, angles, and heights.
- Despite all adjustments, the measurements consistently looked good, but the issue persisted when playing content.
For reference, I’m using an Oppo 203 UHD player to play original discs. In the end, I restored the
Init back-up file, and everything looked fine again. However, after a few days, I repeated the calibration and ran into the same black-level problem.
Does anyone have any idea what might be going wrong here? I’m puzzled by the fact that the reports look fine, but real content still shows these black-level artifacts.
Thanks in advance for your time and suggestions!
The first picture below was taken after restoring the original Init backup file. The second picture shows the issue that occurs after using Autocal.
I would post this on the AVSForum as there is a thread dedicated to this series. This thread has been dead for awhile.
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Hi Everyone 8)
This is my first post here, and I hope this topic is still active.
I’ve been reading a lot on the forum and carefully followed all the recommended steps before starting the calibration. However, I’ve encountered some strange issues that I’d like to share with you, and I would really appreciate your help.
Setup Details
- Projector: JVC DLA-NX9 (European model)
- Calibration Software: JVC Autocal v12
- Laptop: Lenovo ThinkPad P53 running Windows 11 Pro
- Sensors Used: Spyder X and X-Rite i1Pro2 Revision E
- Firmware: Latest version installed on the JVC
- Lamp Hours: First bulb, approximately 800 hours
- Stewart Screen studiotek 130G3
The Problem
I started with gamma calibration using the Spyder X, followed by color calibration with the i1Pro2. While the calibration reports appear to be good, I notice very strange black levels (gamma) when playing content. I would describe these issues as "artifacts," and they are visible in both SDR and HDR10 content.
What I’ve Tried So Far
- Re-ran the calibration multiple times.
- Changed the meter’s position, including different locations, angles, and heights.
- Despite all adjustments, the measurements consistently looked good, but the issue persisted when playing content.
For reference, I’m using an Oppo 203 UHD player to play original discs. In the end, I restored the
Init back-up file, and everything looked fine again. However, after a few days, I repeated the calibration and ran into the same black-level problem.
Does anyone have any idea what might be going wrong here? I’m puzzled by the fact that the reports look fine, but real content still shows these black-level artifacts.
Thanks in advance for your time and suggestions!
The first picture below was taken after restoring the original Init backup file. The second picture shows the issue that occurs after using Autocal.
(https://thumbs-eu-west-1.myalbum.io/photo/360/d341a3f7-2fa7-4e6e-81db-060751287f45.jpg)
(https://thumbs-eu-west-1.myalbum.io/photo/360/c6be1007-e5de-4838-b4c9-0f56a20567e3.jpg)
If you want to try again, I would suggest not using the spider for gamma but rather use your other meter with the diffusion cap on pointed directly at the projector perhaps 1 m in front of the lens. This should provide enough light for accurate gamma readings, and since Gamma is not affected by the screen, it should translate just fine.
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If you want to try again, I would suggest not using the spider for gamma but rather use your other meter with the diffusion cap on pointed directly at the projector perhaps 1 m in front of the lens. This should provide enough light for accurate gamma readings, and since Gamma is not affected by the screen, it should translate just fine.
Hi, thanks for your reply, and happy new year to you all!
In your opinion, could the issue be a bad sample of the Spyder? It seems that the i1Pro2 is not good at reading gamma. Do you have a different opinion on this?
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Could be bad or simply not enough light off the screen. The i1Pro may not be perfect but it should be much better than what you are seeing.
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Could be bad or simply not enough light off the screen. The i1Pro may not be perfect but it should be much better than what you are seeing.
Thanks Nathan! Will give it a try soon.
Have a good weekend! 8)
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hi everyone,
I have a few questions for you. I have read most posts and videos about autocal but there a few things i could not find.
I have a NX9 that i have calibrated for the 1st time with a Spyder X Pro this week-end. I feel the contrast is very good, but i find the image too be too dark, even the subtitles that are now grayish. Maybe after 5 years of getting used to it without calibration, who knows.
I have done one SDR calibration with gamme 2.4 on user 1, then followed by HDR10 on user 4.
Auto aperture was disabled and full opened. Frame Adapt HDR was turned off for the time of the calibration. Same as Theater Optimizer.
1) About "Frame Adapt HDR". When we switch it back, how does it know whether it should select User 4 and not standard HDR10 profile?
2) Does the gamma level used in SDR calibration, has any influence on HDR result? (as we don't see gamma settings in the projector menu when in HDR)
3) I've seen posts about recommending using 2.2 for the SDR calibration, whereas i had selected 2.4. Which one should i use?
4) What about brightness, contrast, should they always be calibrated manually after Autocal calibration?
5) Is there a way to have access to the results of a calibration (graphs and curves)? Seems to not be the case, would have liked to share one. My HDR one was no longer a straight line but a "S".
In the meantime, i am restoring the factory calibration (INIT), to validate my impressions.
thank you
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Hi everyone.
I have a big problem. As indicated i was going to do in my prior post, I have imported (restored) the INIT config to my NX9. Now i don't get any picture on the projector, all black (no signal screen is configured to be blue). It kind of receive a signal but i can't see anything. I must admit that i have done a mistake during importing and click the hide button on the remote as instructions say to never do that. I got an error message to indicate that communication with the projector got lost. So i restart the process and then the result is no image! Are we supposed to get a confirmation message when the import is done? It goes to 100% then nothing else happens).
As the manual says, I have stopped the projector for 5 minutes, restarted the PC and did it again. Same result.
I am extremely nervous now. I hope this will not require me to service the projector. Anyone could help?
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Hi everyone.
I have a big problem. As indicated i was going to do in my prior post, I have imported (restored) the INIT config to my NX9. Now i don't get any picture on the projector, all black (no signal screen is configured to be blue). It kind of receive a signal but i can't see anything. I must admit that i have done a mistake during importing and click the hide button on the remote as instructions say to never do that. I got an error message to indicate that communication with the projector got lost. So i restart the process and then the result is no image! Are we supposed to get a confirmation message when the import is done? It goes to 100% then nothing else happens).
As the manual says, I have stopped the projector for 5 minutes, restarted the PC and did it again. Same result.
I am extremely nervous now. I hope this will not require me to service the projector. Anyone could help?
That doesn't sound good at all. I hope you didn't brick it. The remote shouldn't be touched at all when using autocal. ;D
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Hi everyone.
I have a big problem. As indicated i was going to do in my prior post, I have imported (restored) the INIT config to my NX9. Now i don't get any picture on the projector, all black (no signal screen is configured to be blue). It kind of receive a signal but i can't see anything. I must admit that i have done a mistake during importing and click the hide button on the remote as instructions say to never do that. I got an error message to indicate that communication with the projector got lost. So i restart the process and then the result is no image! Are we supposed to get a confirmation message when the import is done? It goes to 100% then nothing else happens).
As the manual says, I have stopped the projector for 5 minutes, restarted the PC and did it again. Same result.
I am extremely nervous now. I hope this will not require me to service the projector. Anyone could help?
You're going to have to contact JVC support. This is well beyond my expertise level.
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You're going to have to contact JVC support. This is well beyond my expertise level.
Update: I had to send my pj for repair and just got it back. They had to replace the CPU Board. Could not find the cause, we’ll never know. I am done with Autocal.