JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9

[Dylan Seeger]

Manni, I just checked and I'm not seeing any change in black level doing the "hide" test. My Minolta CL200 lux meter didn't report a difference in black level either. Projector was in high lamp, iris fully open. Meter was placed within a foot of the projector lens, too. So this was well within the meter's range to detect a change.

I'm wondering if there's something done at the factory, a type of calibration, that each unit receives that might account for this difference between our units. 

[Manni]

I received my Spyder5Pro today and decided to "LOG" the results.  The only adjustments I have made OOTB was 2 point adjustment using Calman for BT709 and that got me great deltas/results for Gamma and Color using the C6 HDR Meter for BT709.

The Rec-709 results look good, I wouldn't attempt an Autocal right now as there are issues with the current version (V11 1.0) restoring init files if needed. Plus from what I hear the results aren't completely right at the moment. This is why I haven't yet started diving into the software. I want to be able to go back to factory if something goes wrong, and a factory reset doesn't allow that. So personally I'm waiting for an update to the software from JVC. If you have a C6, I would work on the lower greyscale ab it further as it looks a bit out (you can also use the JVC Autocal to adjust gamma manually using the 11-point parametric controls, as that should work. I might give it a try at some point and explain the procedure if needed. For HDR, yes, it would be more useful to look at results in Calman as the graphs would be more precise, but PQ will always look like this, because the flat line always shows a gamma 2.2 reference. So the shape itself isn't a sign that it's significantly off. In fact it doesn't look that bad.

[Manni]

Manni, I just checked and I'm not seeing any change in black level doing the "hide" test. My Minolta CL200 lux meter didn't report a difference in black level either. Projector was in high lamp, iris fully open. Meter was placed within a foot of the projector lens, too. So this was well within the meter's range to detect a change. I'm wondering if there's something done at the factory, a type of calibration, that each unit receives that might account for this difference between our units.

Hi Dylan, Oh yes, there is always unit to unit variation, so I wouldn't expect all units to need the same setting, it's just that in my experience former models (up to the rs500) never had raised black with the defaults. In fact they often need a +1 or even +2 on brightness to not crush blacks. Kris reported that some more recent models needed -1 as well, so it might have happened post rs500 that it became more frequent. It's good that you checked, that way you know you're not killing your on/off. Your contrast measurements look good, just a little bit on the low side for max dynamic, but it might be a meter issue, so that's why I was wondering. Also from what you are saying you are using PC Levels, not Video levels, so that might make a difference too. I set the JVC to HDMI standard and then the GPU to 0-255 and MadVR to 16-235, because I prefer to let MadVR do the dithering that having JVC doing it behind its back. That way I clip at 235 and am not wasting contrast in SDR. Levels are tricky, but you've checked them so no reason to believe there is anything wrong your end.

[Manni]

This maynot be the right place to post but I thought manni or someone else might help me... Ive asked this question on some of the madvr threads but cant seem to get an answer... I have the new NX9, screen size is 145" diag curved Stewart ST130 micro perf. Im using the new dynamic madvr HDR to SDR version 49 which I just love. It is better than the new tone mapping on the NX9 and super bright I can run in low lamp. My problem is I just dont know how to set the target nits in madvr, I have asked this question but most come back saying try this or that and see what looks best. I was told for my screen and its gain of 1.2 I should use 80 target on the NX9, but I know of others that use 200 with a Z1. I have tried 80 which I say looks great, but last night I tried 200, but I dont see anything really change, however i dont know what to look for being so new to HDR. Manni or someone else can you please advise me what to look for or what to set the target nits to. Many thanks in advance and sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.

Hi Murray,

As Dylan said, you need to measure 100% white with a meter to know for sure the peak white value to use in MadVR. 

You can estimate the value with the screen size, dimension, gain, lamp power, zoom ratio, etc but it's not easy. If a calibrator (or a screen calculator) has given you a value in fL, simply multiply that by 3 to get the rough value in nits, and use that.

Failing this, simply use 80nits if you're happy with that. If it feels too dark with some titles, use a lower value. If it looks too bright, use a higher value.

For example, watch a very dark film such as Ghost in the Shell, Blade Runner 2049, Goodfellas or Patriot Day. If the picture is too dark, then lower the target until it looks good in dark scenes in these films.

Then try a very bright film such as Starship Trooper, The Meg, Pacific rim or The Shallow. Look at highlights in bright scenes. If the scenes are too bright, and or if you lose too much highlights, then raise the target.

In the end, you should have settings that work equally well for both dark and bright scenes/films, but that's not only due to the target, the other parameters also play a part. It's way too complex to explain here.

The reason why you're not getting any answer in other threads is because this is experimental work. These are not support threads, because there is no public build out yet.

As I said, I will start a thread after a public build of madVR is released, once settings are not changing every day. In the meantime, please refrain from asking questions on madVR here, because it's taking time away from the experimental work and it's kind of off topic in this thread, especially as it's about experimental, not public builds.

Once a public build with the HDR tonemapping is out, you'll get support in the various madVR threads, and in the one I plan to start here. If you're subscribed to this thread, you'll know as soon as the madVR thread starts as I'll post a link here.

[Madfloyd]

Hi Murray,

As Dylan said, you need to measure 100% white with a meter to know for sure the peak white value to use in MadVR.

You can estimate the value with the screen size, dimension, gain, lamp power, zoom ratio, etc but it's not easy. If a calibrator (or a screen calculator) has given you a value in fL, simply multiply that by 3 to get the rough value in nits, and use that.

Failing this, simply use 80nits if you're happy with that. If it feels too dark with some titles, use a lower value. If it looks too bright, use a higher value.

For example, watch a very dark film such as Ghost in the Shell, Blade Runner 2049, Goodfellas or Patriot Day. If the picture is too dark, then lower the target until it looks good in dark scenes in these films.

Then try a very bright film such as Starship Trooper, The Meg, Pacific rim or The Shallow. Look at highlights in bright scenes. If the scenes are too bright, and or if you lose too much highlights, then raise the target.

In the end, you should have settings that work equally well for both dark and bright scenes/films, but that's not only due to the target, the other parameters also play a part. It's way too complex to explain here.

The reason why you're not getting any answer in other threads is because this is experimental work. These are not support threads, because there is no public build out yet.

As I said, I will start a thread after a public build of madVR is released, once settings are not changing every day. In the meantime, please refrain from asking questions on madVR here, because it's taking time away from the experimental work and it's kind of off topic in this thread, especially as it's about experimental, not public builds.

Once a public build with the HDR tonemapping is out, you'll get support in the various madVR threads, and in the one I plan to start here. If you're subscribed to this thread, you'll know as soon as the madVR thread starts as I'll post a link here.

I'll just add my $0.02 and say that with more recent versions of madVR, the real peak nits value doesn't seem to do much (as Murray noted).  I would guess that it does in certain situations, but it no longer works as an overall brightness control.

I would follow Manni's advice and try the suggested movies.

[riddle]

Some new info about updatet JVC Autocal Software V11 1.0? I try run it with my Spider5 (for GAMA) but when i try run and write it i got error on 24% .

[Manni]

Some new info about updatet JVC Autocal Software V11 1.0? I try run it with my Spider5 (for GAMA) but when i try run and write it i got error on 24% .

No news and it might take a while, so be patient. I wouldn’t expect anything until after a new f/w is out. Meanwhile, you can use the color temp offsets and gains, as well as the gamma controls in the PJ (dark gamma, picture tone and bright gamma) to get very close to a good curve in most cases. If you need to tweak further, then you can use the 12-point manual controls in the autocal to adjust RGB as needed over the whole curve with a fairly good precision.

Personally, I’m not trying the autocal itself until they deliver a revised version that can restore an INIT file without bricking the PJ... But the above should be fine.

[riddle]

No news and it might take a while, so be patient. I wouldn’t expect anything until after a new f/w is out. Meanwhile, you can use the color temp offsets and gains, as well as the gamma controls in the PJ (dark gamma, picture tone and bright gamma) to get very close to a good curve in most cases. If you need to tweak further, then you can use the 12-point manual controls in the autocal to adjust RGB as needed over the whole curve with a fairly good precision.

Personally, I’m not trying the autocal itself until they deliver a revised version that can restore an INIT file without bricking the PJ... But the above should be fine.

Hi Manni, can i usk you what worflow you are used in Calman calibrate your projector? Its looks greate.
Thank you

[Manni]

Hi Manni, can i usk you what worflow you are used in Calman calibrate your projector? Its looks greate.
Thank you

I simply set 100% white to D65 and ran a Lightning LUT for MadVR with Calman. It's a small LUT (101 points) that takes less than 10 minutes and gives good results when the display is very linear, which was the case of the rs2000.

[Manni]

Just to say that I've added ANSI contrast measurements taken at 110 hours in the contrast measurements section.

[bobof]

Just to say that I've added ANSI contrast measurements taken at 110 hours in the contrast measurements section.

Is the section in the spreadsheet with the min/max and 2% mentioned attempting to address the meter inaccuracy of the Minolta?  If so I think it is perhaps optimistic.  Minolta T10 is quoted at +/-2% +/-1 displayed digit.
  
So at the very lowest measurement ranges the accuracy gets a bit wild...  If it is only displaying 0.04 on the display I believe this could be anything between 0.03 LUX and 0.05 LUX (effectively +/- 25%)

[Manni]

Is the section in the spreadsheet with the min/max and 2% mentioned attempting to address the meter inaccuracy of the Minolta?  If so I think it is perhaps optimistic.  Minolta T10 is quoted at +/-2% +/-1 displayed digit.
 
So at the very lowest measurement ranges the accuracy gets a bit wild...  If it is only displaying 0.04 on the display I believe this could be anything between 0.03 LUX and 0.05 LUX (effectively +/- 25%)

Explanation of why the T10 measurements are reasonably accurate - if not in absolute values at least to compare the various settings and measurements made of previous models - are in the comments. The attached files also contain contrast measurements made with the Discus trained to my i1pro2 measuring off the screen. They are within 5% of the T10, on the conservative side.

Here is what I said:

"I didn’t move the meter for all the measurements as its range was enough to cover everything, given that the black floor with the DI didn’t go very low. Ideally, I’d have wanted to get a bit closer to the lens to lower the margin of error at the low end (I’m not happy with 0.04 lux for the lowest measurement, because we’re getting near the limit and a single significant digit change there makes a huge difference in the ratio) but it’s good enough for a first attempt. I usually measure on slow and wait at least 10-15 seconds for the reading to stabilize. If I find a way to place the tripod (possibly a different one) a bit closer to the lens, I might take another round. Overall I’m confident that these results are accurate (if not as far as their absolute readings, at least within the capability of the meter) because they are within 5% of those taken by the Discus in Calman (see below)."

I managed to bring the meter closer for the ANSI contrast measurements, though black of course doesn't go that low with these, in order to maximize the readings. I might remeasure at some point, but if I do it will probably be with the Discus, not the T10. I also provide measurements of the same contrast twice for different positions (auto1 and auto2) so that the reader can see that as inaccurate as it is, the T10 readings are at least repeatable.

Otherwise I agree that the information re accuracy is not useful to others. I'll take it out.

[DLCPhoto]

Thank you for this positive, constructive comment. After all this hard work, it's good to know that someone cares enough to post their appreciation. It's posts like this that keep me going

Manni, with regard to this part of your post, I think it would be helpful for you to realize that there are many of us, myself included, who are *very* appreciative of all your posts, all the research and analysis, that you provide.  We lack the in-depth knowledge and experience you bring to the forum, and so there's basically nothing we can contribute to many of these conversations.  But we sit back, and learn what we can from your posts, as well as the equally informed replies from those who are in a position to do so.

So, don't interpret the lack of numerous replies or thanks as evidence that nobody cares about all your hard work!  Keep it up!:D

[Manni]

Thanks and no worries, I didn't mean this for anyone else, apologies if that's the way it came across. I'll edit that part of the post.

It's just that when someone goes through all this information and only finds a nitpicking comment to post that doesn't bring anything valuable to the discussion (this isn't the first time), about a point that was covered in my comments, I find that a bit rich.

And by the way, you often contribute in this forum and elsewhere, and are far more knowledgeable than you suggest, so feel free to do so here too. Also you frequently "like" posts, which is a good way to express appreciation and a positive frame of mind.

All constructive comments and contributions are welcome. I certainly hope that others will contribute to the thread, but I guess we will need JVC to deliver a working version of the Autocal for things to start properly.

If anyone is interested, I could explain how to use the manual gamma controls in the meantime.

[David Vaughn]

Manni, just to add to the compliments, but you are amazing at providing detailed instructions and helping out the community immensely. I nominate you for "Member of the Decade!"