JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9

[jueliang]

Hi Manni,
Thanks for your quick reply!
Yes, I did read your posts, for multiple times:). Actually you referred this thread to me on AVS more half a year ago when I just bought my projector.

I understand that I need separate calibrations for different lamp, iris and filter settings and different display modes. I only did gamma autocal but not the color for Nature setting in low lamp mode with spyder. Then the Nature setting in low lamp mode gave me perfect gray scale and color saturation sweep as confirmed by using Xrite with HCFR, I did not have to calibrate the color, which surprised me.

In the same Nature mode, only changing lamp mode to high resulted in a lot green push and lack of red. So I am now just wondering is my lamp a bad sample, or does every JVC lamp have the same direction of spectrum shift when change lamp mode? So I guess my question is more about the lamp quality (super accurate color in low lamp with default Nature setting, but more green and less red in high lamp mode) rather than the calibration process.

Regarding madVR, I posted my question in madVR thread on AVS as well. I saw you a lot in that thread so I also posted my question here trying to get help quicker. Sorry for the off topic.

[Manni]

Hi there,

It is just luck that you didn't need to do a color calibration in low lamp, though as natural is an SDR mode it might be factory calibrated for low lamp rather than high lamp, or the low lamp factory calibration was more accurate than the high lamp one. Some factory modes are very close out of the box, but they will drift with time. It's not the same calibration  anyway.

In any case there is most probably nothing wrong with your lamp, you just need a color calibration in high lamp (and most likely a gamma one as well). If you only do a gamma autocal, there is no reason to expect your color balance to be correct in any mode.

You could try to do a color calibration in high lamp with your spyder, then before saving it check it with your i1d3 and a third-party software (I assume it's an i1d3 and not an i1pro, otherwise you would use it for color calibration in the Autocal). If the result is good, save it in the Autocal. if it isn't, don't.

Re madVR, as your issue isn't specific to HDR tonemapping, this is the wrong thread to post it. You should post in a madVR support thread, for example on Doom9,  but there are others.

[jueliang]

Thank you!
Yes, my xrite is i1pro3. I am not sure about the exact name, but it is the cheaper one incompatible with autocal. I tried using spyder for color autocal, but the result was way off (too red), I did not have to check it with xrite and HCFR, the picture was so wrong that I can tell by my eyes.

Again, thank you! Your posts helped me a lot.

[Manni]

Thank you!
Yes, my xrite is i1pro3. I am not sure about the exact name, but it is the cheaper one incompatible with autocal. I tried using spyder for color autocal, but the result was way off (too red), I did not have to check it with xrite and HCFR, the picture was so wrong that I can tell by my eyes.

Again, thank you! Your posts helped me a lot.

You're welcome.

As your Spyder can't be used for color autocal if uncorrected, I would suggest to get an i1pro2 or compatible if you want the Autocal to do the color calibration, or to correct your Spyder using the spreadsheet method (original ChadB method or my slightly modified or modified one). It's quite involved and I haven't described it in detail here as I've updated it to work better irrespective of the actual gamut cover, but you can find the gist of it in the old calibration thread in the meantime. A simpler version is to only correct white, which already improves things a lot for RGB balance across the whole greyscale and works irrespective of the target gamut (as the target is always D65).

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-49.html#post50950289
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-53.html#post51480801
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-63.html#post53770137


I'll try to post more about this here when I find the time to document my new method.

Also I forgot to say that if you're using the Spyder facing the PJ, you have to select the correct screen code after calibration to take the screen into account. This might significantly reduce your errors if your screen material isn't color neutral. A link to the screen codes is listed in the second post.

[ENT]

Hi Ent,
No, this simply means that the ranges haven't changed with Autocal V12. They are the same as they have always been (the boundaries are at -4, -8 and -12). The calibration itself went perfectly well and as expected, except that the most accurate point is the iris setting selected within that range.

So for example, the first range is 0 to -3. Any iris setting you calibrate within that range will replace the previous color calibration for that range (same lamp/filter mode). However, the actual iris setting selected during the calibration will have a lower dE than the others in the range. So if I calibrate 0, -1 will still be okay but slightly worse RGB balance, -2 will still be okay but slightly worse RGB balance, -3 will still be okay but even worse RGB balance, and -4 (different range) will be uncalibrated.

This is explained in the basic section, there were just some questions recently about whether the ranges had changed in V12 or for the new models, and they haven't, so I was only confirming that they were the same, but that for maximum accuracy it was better to use in each range the iris setting that you are actually using, if there is one.

This is why I calibrate at 0, -5 and -9 for HDR, because these are the iris settings I actually use, rather than 0, -4, -8 which would calibrate the same ranges but would be less accurate at -5 and -9, which are the settings I'm interested in. I don't calibrate below -9 because I'll never use an iris setting below -9 in HDR, so I don't bother doing the last range (-12 to -15) in that mode.

Makes sense?

Hi Manni, makes sense. I agree with you it is better to choose the preferred condition and calibrate it and avoid a lot of useless and waste of time for options that never will be used.

[jueliang]

You're welcome.

As your Spyder can't be used for color autocal if uncorrected, I would suggest to get an i1pro2 or compatible if you want the Autocal to do the color calibration, or to correct your Spyder using the spreadsheet method (original ChadB method or my slightly modified or modified one). It's quite involved and I haven't described it in detail here as I've updated it to work better irrespective of the actual gamut cover, but you can find the gist of it in the old calibration thread in the meantime. A simpler version is to only correct white, which already improves things a lot for RGB balance across the whole greyscale and works irrespective of the target gamut (as the target is always D65).

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-49.html#post50950289
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-53.html#post51480801
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2246658-jvc-calibration-software-v6-2015-models-x9000-x7000-x5000-rs400-rs500-rs600-63.html#post53770137


I'll try to post more about this here when I find the time to document my new method.

Also I forgot to say that if you're using the Spyder facing the PJ, you have to select the correct screen code after calibration to take the screen into account. This might significantly reduce your errors if your screen material isn't color neutral. A link to the screen codes is listed in the second post.

Thanks Manni. Mine is spyderx facing the screen. I forgot to mention that I used the screen code, which gave me perfect gray scale and color sweep, delta E less than 1. 

[Manni]

Thanks Manni. Mine is spyderx facing the screen. I forgot to mention that I used the screen code, which gave me perfect gray scale and color sweep, delta E less than 1.

Yes, but wait until a few hundred hours...

by the way, when/if you use a meter facing the screen for color calibration, you can’t use the screen offset anymore. At the moment it only works (in low lamp only) because you haven’t done a color calibration yet, but again, it’s just lucky and it won’t last very long. So make the most of it while you can!

[jj-34]

Manni, have you had a chance by now to evaluate the spyder X with autocal ?
Or is the spyder 5 + autocol V11 still the current recommendation ?

[Manni]

Manni, have you had a chance by now to evaluate the spyder X with autocal ?
Or is the spyder 5 + autocol V11 still the current recommendation ?

Nope, still waiting to get the new beta for Calman R3 with Spyder X support. I was hoping to get it this week-end but it doesn't look like it's going to happen, and I'm away for work most of the week next week, so hopefully next week-end.

In the meantime, Spyder 5 and V11 (if you have access to them) is the safe way to go, preferably with an i1pro2 or similar of course.

[Manni]

As promised, I managed to get a beta of Calman 2019 R3 that supports the Spyder X.

Unfortunately there was still an issue with madVR (madTPG didn't work as a source when the 3D LUT is enabled), so I wasn't able to execute my plan which was to have a 3D LUT with near-reference results as a baseline to test the Spyder X. However, the results after the Autocal are close enough, so that will have to do.

Here is what I've done, using my rec-709 picture mode (rec-709, D65, gamma 2.4) to have a gamut cover close to 100%:

1) I've run a color only Autocal with V12 using the i1pro2
2) I've run a gamma only Autocal with V12 using the Spyder X

I measured that calibration with my Discus trained to my i1pro2, and I called these results "reference", even though they are not as no 3D LUT is applied. This is the result of the JVC Autocal V12 after setting 100% white to D65 (it needed something like -3 on green and -4 on blue).

The resulting calibration is excellent, both for the greyscale (dE ITP average under 2), gamut (dE2000 Max under 2, average under 1 both for sat and lum) and colorchecker XXL (I stopped it after 400 points out of 1500 or so with a dE2000 Max of 1.5, average dE of 0.6). Frankly this is close to reference and I would be happy without a LUT if I couldn't use one.

Then I measured this near perfect calibration with the Spyder X (the same one that I used to do the gamma only calibration with Autocal V12), without any correction, using the LCD preset. This is how the Autocal sees your PJ if you use the Spyder for color. The results are very poor for both gamut (dE Max above 5, average above 2 for both sat and lum) and greyscale (dE ITP average above 5).

This means that if you had a near-perfect PJ, using the Spyder for color would make it significantly worse.

I also ran a colorchecker XXL with the Spyder X trained to the i1pro2, and it showed that it was very poor near black (errors above 6dE2000, probably much higher in ICP, taking luminance into account). It's a shame because it's about 50% faster than my discus, but clearly it can't be used to measure near black accurately, even with a fixed black. Using low light handler didn't make any difference with these errors (I checked). Of course the Spyder X is unable to measure black, it returns 0.0137 for black instead of 0.0019 in SDR), which means a contrast of 4,795:1 instead of the actual contrast close to 40,000:1.

So this confirms:

1) There is nothing wrong with the Autocal V12 used with the i1pro2 for color only and the SpyderX for gamma only. The results are excellent and close to reference.

2) This specific SpyderX unit couldn't be used for color. It is red deficient (significantly) as can be seen on the greyscale measurement. I have never seen a Spyder measure that poorly from an RGB balance point of view, and when I compared it to my Spyder 5, the 5 was much better for balance, but significantly worse for luminance. So as always, getting a good spyder for color is a complete lottery. However, this confirms that even a poor spyder will deliver excellent results as long as you use it for gamma only.

3) The usual recommendation stands: DO NOT USE A SPYDER FOR COLOR AUTOCAL unless you are either able to verify it against a known good meter, or correct it using the spreadsheet method and a custom color profile. Using an i1pro2 (or compatible) is the easiest/best way to get great results and near-reference calibration using the Autocal.

4) If you don't have a Spyder yet, it's fine to buy a Spyder X as long as you use it for gamma only. V12 works fine and is much faster for gamma thanks to the support of the Spyder X.

5) If you already have both the 5 and the X, it's fine to use the X with V12 (it's much faster), again as long as you use it for gamma only.

Have fun calibrating!

[den110]

Hi Manni,

So I have the SpyderX and was thinking of trying to correct the color calibration with Chad's spreadsheet method using custom color profiles and Calman software.  Is the Calman software free or if not how much is it?  Would you have a link to the Calman calibration software site? I would assume doing the color calibration first with the Spyderx, correct with Calman and the spreadsheet method, then do the gamma with the Spyderx.  Is that the correct? 

[Manni]

Hi Manni,

So I have the SpyderX and was thinking of trying to correct the color calibration with Chad's spreadsheet method using custom color profiles and Calman software.  Is the Calman software free or if not how much is it?  Would you have a link to the Calman calibration software site? I would assume doing the color calibration first with the Spyderx, correct with Calman and the spreadsheet method, then do the gamma with the Spyderx.  Is that the correct?

No, unfortunately it's more complicated than that, as explained in the links already provided.

You have to create a custom color profile using the spreadsheet to compensate for the errors of the Spyder. Please follow the links that I provided a few posts back in the thread (they should also be linked to in the index in post 2). For Calman, please follow https://www.portrait.com/calman-calibration-software/. Calman is paid for, but you only need a version that would allow you to load Chad's spreadsheet (or my modified version).

Alternatively, you could only correct white, there is no need for a spreadsheet to do that, and you could use a free software like HCFR to achieve this, but it's not beginner stuff. Please let's keep the discussions on Calman and HFCR off the thread, at least until I (or someone else) posts here a method to correct the spyder.

I plan to do this at some point as ChadB's method has some limitations, but I don't have the time at the moment (or the inclination as the i1pro2 does a perfect job).

I would highly recommend to spend a few hundred on an i1pro2 clone, it's so much easier (and more accurate) than the spreadsheet method. I love Calman, and I highly recommend it, but I wouldn't buy it just for that.

EDIT: Also, you need a known-good meter to correct the Spyder. Which meter do you own that is more accurate than the Spyder and can be used to correct it?

[jj-34]

Well done Manni, now as I have both the X and the I1Pro2 there's no more waiting, let's do it ....!

[den110]

No, unfortunately it's more complicated than that, as explained in the links already provided.

You have to create a custom color profile using the spreadsheet to compensate for the errors of the Spyder. Please follow the links that I provided a few posts back in the thread (they should also be linked to in the index in post 2). For Calman, please follow https://www.portrait.com/calman-calibration-software/. Calman is paid for, but you only need a version that would allow you to load Chad's spreadsheet (or my modified version).

Alternatively, you could only correct white, there is no need for a spreadsheet to do that, and you could use a free software like HCFR to achieve this, but it's not beginner stuff. Please let's keep the discussions on Calman and HFCR off the thread, at least until I (or someone else) posts here a method to correct the spyder.

I plan to do this at some point as ChadB's method has some limitations, but I don't have the time at the moment (or the inclination as the i1pro2 does a perfect job).

I would highly recommend to spend a few hundred on an i1pro2 clone, it's so much easier (and more accurate) than the spreadsheet method. I love Calman, and I highly recommend it, but I wouldn't buy it just for that.

EDIT: Also, you need a known-good meter to correct the Spyder. Which meter do you own that is more accurate than the Spyder and can be used to correct it?

Unfortunately I just have the SpyderX meter.  Can you link a site to get a i1Pro2 clone?  I don't mind spending a few hundred for the clone, but just can't pony up over 1k for the i1Pro2.  

[jj-34]

The clone is an EFI ES-2000,  but it's not a clone really, the spectro is an actual I1Pro2 only the label stuck on it is different.