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2018 CEDIA projector thread

Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #120 on: August 31, 2018, 02:00:29 PM »
My two cents:

UPDATE FROM IFA 2018:

Hi everyone,

JVC had the JVC DLA-NX9 on demo only. As we all know, this is a preproduction unit, so this needs to be borne in mind.

We were not able to obtain answers to everyones questions, but we were unable to obtain the answers to some of them, which I will come onto in a second. Further to this JVC were reluctant to allow us to put on our own video content, but the good news is that we managed to persuade JVC to allow us to put one or two items of our own content on.

The dynamic contrast functionality was/is not working properly so the demos at IFA 2018 have been with it turned off and so the projected image relates to native ON/OFF contrast performance only, without any dynamic contrast functionality.

There was also noticeable posterization however I was assured that this will not be present with the production units.

Furthermore, the unit was uncalibrated and the settings not optimized.

Also, the focus had been set imperfectly, which became apparent when I put on some test patterns.

**HOWEVER** in spite of all of this, subjectively speaking my first impressions of the JVC DLA-NX9 are that the image projected looks very good indeed; and I have no doubt whatsoever that with respect to the actual production units with proper launch firmware and with the projector setup properly and calibrated, this projector is going to look  nothing short of absolutely incredible. In short, I have been absolutely blown away by its performance.

Also, as a point of interest, the manual mechanical iris was closed down to -3. The screen size was circa 3.5m wide and was using Stewart Filmscreen 1.3 gain screen material.

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS AS PER FOLLOWS (sorry if there is some repetition with respect to Ran's answers!):

Native on/off for all models with the iris fully open? Even if only a rough idea compared to the specs, which presumably are for iris fully closed?

We were unable to take measurements and JVC were not agreeable to confirming this yet

Autocal support confirmation, and for which meters?

Yes and the same meters (Spyder); however, the Autocal is reportedly improved

Is the lens on the N5/N7 the same lens as on the current models?

NO the  lens is similar but has been improved, according to JVC's main technical guy. Subjective opinion regarding the N5 and N7 are that they are better as compared with the existing eShift range as far as lens and optics performance is concerned.

Is their new tone mapping based on static HDR metadata, or are they doing real-time processing to calculate each frame’s peak brightness to emulate HDR10+ (similar to what MadVR does [EDIT:apparently, the UB820 only processes HDR10 static metadata])

Yes it is indeed based on static HDR metadata, similar to how the new Panasonic UB820 and UB9000 Blu-Ray players operate.

Furthermore, a rather neat feature, it tells you what is the media’s static HDR metadata (Max CLL and Max FALL). See this photo that I took which shows this:

https://photos.smugmug.com/IFA-2018/i-TRht36f/0/ec1d5a13/X2/20180831_121006-X2.jpg
2018 CEDIA projector thread


ANSI contrast

According to JVC but not yet definitely confirmed via independent measurements the ANSI contrast performance is increased by circa 50%. Unsure at the present time whether this extends to both of the N5 and N7 further to the NX9.

Does the dynamic iris close further than on the current models (i.e. any improvement to fade to black)?

No. It’s the same.

There are “up to” 10 installation memories that hold lens memory, pixel correction, masking etc all together, which sounds great, but how many of these for each model

With respect to the NX9 it’s 10. Unsure at the present time whether this includes the N5 and N7 as well, but I expect that it does.

Is the HDMI sync time improved compared to the current models

Yes. It’s been HALVED

Can you confirm the +/- 100% V and +/- 47% H lens shift reported by some sources?

Confirmed

What is the lumen loss with DCI P3 filter in place?

According to JVC “it is less”

JVC were unwilling or unable to divulge more details that the fact it is less. So someone will simply have to measure it, which I will be doing myself, as and when I receive delivery of my units

Is there additional video noise when eShift is turned on

No. There is absolutely zero additional video noise when eShift is turned on.

Bright corners

When asked the question whether or not there has been any development invested into improving the potential for bright corners, the response from the JVC guys was that no there has not been.  **HOWEVER** I was not seeing any bright corners with respect to the NX9 unit being demonstrated; and this is a totally new optical block plus chipset, plus chassis etc. so it could very well be that the bright corners issue has indeed been improved. Either way, we won't know for sure until we have multiple data points with respect to the production units.

Is the iris on the NX9 the same or new?   

It is a completely new iris.

How has JVC managed to increase the native ON/OFF contrast with native 4K so much?

JVC are understandably and as expected unwilling to say how they have done it; however, they have confirmed that it’s an entirely new optical block and chipset.

Will JVC be releasing sometime next year a ‘big brother’ to the NX9 and/or replacement for the JVC RS4500/Z1 that’s essentially an NX9 with laser light source and higher peak lumens light output?

Would not confirm or deny.

When will the production units for the projectors be available / ship ?

End of October.

Impressions of lens performance and/or ability to resolve native 4K content at the pixel level

Despite all of the various pre-production related issues, and despite being 'out-of-the-box' uncalibrated, the NX9 completely aced both torture tests that I carried out. Firstly, it PERFECTLY resolved the Masciola single pixel native 4K test pattern off the HDR10 Test Pattern Suite, with perfect uniformity:

(N.B. I apologize for the quality of these photos - I was only able to take these using my phone not my 'proper' camera - there was in reality no moire in the projected image. That is a limitation of the photos)

https://photos.smugmug.com/IFA-2018/i-tkMhvp9/0/54315f93/L/1%20pixel%20checkerboard-L.jpg
2018 CEDIA projector thread


https://photos.smugmug.com/IFA-2018/i-TCvLRXC/0/28d288b8/O/20180831_153807.jpg
2018 CEDIA projector thread


Secondly, it completed nailed the Quick Brown Fox test pattern, with perfect sharpness (aside from the projector having been set out of focus slightly) and perfect focus uniformity right across the whole image. The RGB convergence was also very good indeed all things considered; and the image was devoid of any and all streaking / ghosting / smearing, comprising an exceptionally clean and razor sharp image, even when viewed at extremely close proximity of less than 1 metre away, with superb contrast and dynamic range:

https://photos.smugmug.com/IFA-2018/i-rWftJ8x/0/ffc9a322/L/quick%20brown%20fox-L.jpg
2018 CEDIA projector thread


My conclusion from my first experience of the JVC DLA-NX9 is that JVC has hit a home run with this projector; and potentially with respect to the whole new projector range. Personally, I cannot wait to lay hands on the production units and carry out my evaluations and complete my in-depth review of the range, including comprehensive measurements, scientific analysis, and direct comparisons; which will be published shortly thereafter :)

:wink:
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 01:13:02 PM by ARROW-AV »

Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #121 on: August 31, 2018, 02:03:38 PM »
This noise, is it the rapid unsteadiness that appears even on a static image that people are talking about?

Does the RS4500 have this?
Does Sony have this?

Possibly, though we don't know for sure until there are more units out there to be tested. It could be inherent in their panel design and how they're driven which is why it's still there, or it could be that it hasn't been tweaked out like it has in the 4500 and will be gone when in production, we'll have to wait and see.

Neither the 4500, the eshift Epsons or the Sony's suffer from it - as Dylan said, the Sony's have an undefeatable image noise suppression system that could be a good or bad thing, depending on your point of view.


Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #122 on: August 31, 2018, 02:07:39 PM »
Possibly, though we don't know for sure until there are more units out there to be tested. It could be inherent in their panel design and how they're driven which is why it's still there, or it could be that it hasn't been tweaked out like it has in the 4500 and will be gone when in production, we'll have to wait and see.

Neither the 4500, the eshift Epsons or the Sony's suffer from it - as Dylan said, the Sony's have an undefeatable image noise suppression system that could be a good or bad thing, depending on your point of view.
The JVC guys did say that it is possible to eliminate the video noise and they have succeeded in doing so. That's why I will be reserving judgement regarding this as and when I receive delivery of and evaluation the actual production units. Hopefully it will not be there. I guess we are just going to have to wait and see  ;)

EDIT /UPDATE: THERE IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO VIDEO NOISE WITH NATIVE 4K CONTENT
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 05:06:24 AM by ARROW-AV »

AVSCraig

Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #123 on: August 31, 2018, 03:01:39 PM »
This noise, is it the rapid unsteadiness that appears even on a static image that people are talking about?

Does the RS4500 have this?
Does Sony have this?

No, it does not. The only noise I see is in the source ( older grainy Blu-rays ). 4K Blu-rays have no noise. I always thought this was related to eshift itself, what little noise I saw with my RS600 with some select Blu-rays. 

Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #124 on: August 31, 2018, 03:03:05 PM »
Hi Arrow,

Are the bright corners stronger on the N7 and N9 vs the N5? Similarly as they are less prevalent on the RS440 vs RS540/640?

AVSCraig

Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #125 on: August 31, 2018, 03:51:30 PM »
Hi Arrow,

Are the bright corners stronger on the N7 and N9 vs the N5? Similarly as they are less prevalent on the RS440 vs RS540/640?

I think they only had the NX9 being demo'd. Hard to say until a couple hundred of each model get into the wild, eh ?

Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #126 on: August 31, 2018, 03:53:59 PM »
Hi Arrow,

Are the bright corners stronger on the N7 and N9 vs the N5? Similarly as they are less prevalent on the RS440 vs RS540/640?
They only had the NX9 on demo. The N7 and N5 were only display but not on demo. But to be honest, despite the answer to the question with respect to the NX9 unit on demo it does not really have noticeable bright corners.

Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #127 on: August 31, 2018, 03:54:59 PM »
By the way, I do not remember seeing any video noise with the native 4K test patterns...

« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 04:44:59 PM by ARROW-AV »

Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #128 on: August 31, 2018, 04:34:40 PM »
I have a feeling once they dial in the software for the new video processing solution most, if not all, of that noise will be gone. In 1080p mode (no eshift) on the old models there was never any noticeable added noise, even when you were at the screen looking. So I have faith this quirk is just a pre-production artifact that will be taken care of when these units launch. Also, it could very well be an issue solely related to the N9 as I assume that has its own special hardware solution. I hope the N5 or N7 will be on display at CEDIA and people can get a close look at it then.
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Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #129 on: August 31, 2018, 04:51:41 PM »

https://photos.smugmug.com/IFA-2018/i-TCvLRXC/0/28d288b8/O/20180831_153807.jpg
2018 CEDIA projector thread



Looking good when you consider that the same test pattern on the Sony's look like this. This was the 285ES I had here earlier this year:

https://i.imgur.com/s4SXIkD.png
2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 04:53:23 PM by Dylan Seeger »
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Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #130 on: August 31, 2018, 05:00:28 PM »
Dylan,

Here's how the SONY 760/885ES handles precisely the same identical single pixel native 4K HDR10 Masciola test pattern, similarly out of the box, but with respect to actual production units... and check out the 'coffee mug' ring:

https://photos.smugmug.com/SONY-VPL-VW760ES/i-pbw5VPg/0/ea1c3fd5/O/FACTORY%20DEFAULT%20-%20COFFEE%20MUG%20RING.jpg
2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 05:10:12 PM by ARROW-AV »

AVSMike

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Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #131 on: August 31, 2018, 05:03:35 PM »
Awesome!  4K and high native contrast.  Bravo!

Can I get a laser version please? :)

Sure, it is available and called the RS4500. :)
My Baffle Wall System: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=124.msg902#msg902

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Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #132 on: August 31, 2018, 05:04:07 PM »
The 285ES looks very similar if you look closely at the checkerboard pattern part of your image. Instead of white and black pixels its more like black pixels in a sea of grey:

https://i.imgur.com/trVeFn0.png
2018 CEDIA projector thread
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Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #133 on: August 31, 2018, 05:13:49 PM »
Yeah, I think it's most SONYs due to the automated RGB zone pixel alignment in the service menu inducing moire; but the SONY 760/885ES has uniformity issues above and beyond that... See the 'coffee mug' ring I have now highlighted in that screenshot? What's that all about?  ;)

Either way, the new JVC NX9 totally smashed the native 4K pixel level delineation test. I have a feeling that the N5 and N7 will too (or at least I am hoping they will) despite having the 'lesser' lenses :)

I'm going to be doing an in-depth evaluation of all three new JVC projectors, including comprehensive measurements, analysis, and comparisons, just as soon as I receive delivery of my units.

I have a private meeting with SONY tomorrow morning at 9am wherein I will be evaluating the SONY 870/995ES. I will be posting feedback on here afterwards.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 05:20:37 PM by ARROW-AV »

Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #134 on: August 31, 2018, 06:26:05 PM »
Please, please, please ask about the posterization issue and if the engineers are looking into a solution. The images from their 4K projectors should never look like this:

Sony:

(click to enlarge)
http://hometheaterphotos.com/projector2/JVC_Sony8.jpg
2018 CEDIA projector thread


JVC:

(click to enlarge)
http://hometheaterphotos.com/projector2/JVC_Sony9.jpg
2018 CEDIA projector thread


I've been waiting for years for Sony to fix this issue.

Close up images:

http://hometheaterphotos.com/projector2/JVC_Sony10.jpg
2018 CEDIA projector thread


http://hometheaterphotos.com/projector2/JVC_Sony11.jpg
2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 06:30:29 PM by Dylan Seeger »
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Home Theater Review
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