2018 CEDIA projector thread

[Dylan Seeger]

Is it known that the "auto tone-mapping" feature is related to HDR10+ or is this some sort of JVC specific software that alters the HDR content to suit their relatively low light output images?

[Dylan Seeger]

Arrow, would you mind asking about the lens used in the N5 and N7? It seems to me that this is the same lens used in the previous e-shift models as that lens was also 65mm in diameter at the exit element. The eshift lens consists of 17 elements, in 15 groups. The eshift model specs 2x zoom and lens shift capabilities as +/-34% horizontal and +/-80% vertical.

These are the same numbers that the N5 and N7 show on the spec sheet. Now, the lens used in the eshift models is a great lens for sure, even better than the one Sony uses in the non-ARC-F models. This was clearly evident when doing comparisons with these projectors in the same room. The JVC eshift lens was simply better at delineating pixels across the whole image versus the Sony lens in several of the Sony 4K models I've had here. So I won't be upset if they're re-using it here but I'm curious if there've been any improvements made such as better optical coatings or maybe better quality glass. If you get the chance can you ask JVC if this is indeed the same lens? I'd ask you on the other forum, but I'm perma-banned.

[ARROW-AV]

Is it known that the "auto tone-mapping" feature is related to HDR10+ or is this some sort of JVC specific software that alters the HDR content to suit their relatively low light output images?

Arrow, would you mind asking about the lens used in the N5 and N7? It seems to me that this is the same lens used in the previous e-shift models as that lens was also 65mm in diameter at the exit element. The eshift lens consists of 17 elements, in 15 groups. The eshift model specs 2x zoom and lens shift capabilities as +/-34% horizontal and +/-80% vertical.

These are the same numbers that the N5 and N7 show on the spec sheet. Now, the lens used in the eshift models is a great lens for sure, even better than the one Sony uses in the non-ARC-F models. This was clearly evident when doing comparisons with these projectors in the same room. The JVC eshift lens was simply better at delineating pixels across the whole image versus the Sony lens in several of the Sony 4K models I've had here. So I won't be upset if they're re-using it here but I'm curious if there've been any improvements made such as better optical coatings or maybe better quality glass. If you get the chance can you ask JVC if this is indeed the same lens? I'd ask you on the other forum, but I'm perma-banned.

I'll ask both questions. 

[Dylan Seeger]

Awesome! Thank you so much.

[Pultzar]

Is there something inherent with the laser engine which reduces contrast compared to what is possible with a lamp?  Or were the JVC advances in contrast something which could apply to a laser engine?  I told myself I would not buy another lamp projector, but I'm not sure I can swallow the $ pill knowing that 4k with high native contrast is out there!

[Dylan Seeger]

Is there something inherent with the laser engine which reduces contrast compared to what is possible with a lamp?  Or were the JVC advances in contrast something which could apply to a laser engine?  I told myself I would not buy another lamp projector, but I'm not sure I can swallow the $ pill knowing that 4k with high native contrast is out there!

I've seen this topic discussed quite a bit on the other forum and I disagreed with the sentiment (before these models were announced) that they were somehow going to be dramatically worse off contrast-wise to the eshift models simply because they were using the new .69" DiLA panels. The simple answer is no, a laser/phosphor light source doesn't offer some inherent advantage or disadvantage. It's more about refined light engine design combined with the imagers potential performance that gives you your contrast performance.

Two things to consider; JVC has been working on their lamp based light engine for over a decade now. This means the light engine as a whole, not just the DiLA panels. So we're talking about things like optical coatings, newer/better wire-grid polarizers, a better lens, better optical block, and yes better DiLA panels. I would imagine that a LOT of what made the eshift models great in terms of contrast made their way to these new lamp based native 4K units. Now...I'm not saying they've simply dropped these new panels in an otherwise unchanged light engine compared to the eshift models, but I'd bet there are striking similarities between the two designs and this is why we're seeing better-than-RS4500 contrast. As the old adage says, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So JVC kept what worked in getting more contrast with these new panels. But it does seem these new panels do offer less native contrast over their latest 1080p panels, but luckily JVCs tried and true light engine tweaks over the years makes up for some of these DiLA panel deficiencies. 

The second thing to note is similar to what I've just said. The RS4500 was a brand new product with a new light engine design with a completely new light source that didn't have the advantage of having over a decades worth of refinement under its belt. I think subsequent laser based models will get incrementally better as JVC tweaks the light engine and, yes, possibly coming out with a gen-2 .69" 4K DiLA panel that has the potential to get more contrast in an otherwise unchanged light engine.

[TWISM]

A lot of excitement about these new projectors. I see Arrow stated 50% ANSI increase.

I picked a good year to go to CEDIA. Less than a week!

[AVSCraig]

Here is a Forbes review - https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2018/08/30/jvc-launches-three-new-true-4k-projectors-and-they-look-awesome/#5fa539886cf8

[bmoney]

woah! divorce imminent

[Dylan Seeger]

On the other forum, a guy named Ran mentioned the following after asking the JVC techs at IFA:

1. Ansi Contrast has been improved and is now similar to the 4500.

2. The lens on the 5+7 are the same as last years lens.

3. Updates will be done via the USB port.

4. A completely new Light engine.

5. Iris is the same as last years, BUT the N9 will have a brand new Iris system.

6. Sync times will be cut in half.

7. Streaking is a thing of the past (hopefully of course…)

8. Light loss with the filter will be less (not sure how much less) than last year.

9. New and improved calibration software will be out shortly, NO support for new sensors.

10. Bright Corners (my absolute nightmare) is a well known issue, which currently can NOT be solved under current conditions and pricing. Asked about this "picking the best parts stuff" (which is a thing of the past now, but still made me wonder...) and they said it has nothing to do or no effect on bright corners what so ever, just lens and better contrast.

Interesting stuff. The only thing I'm a bit confused by is, if the same lens is being used in the N5 and N7 that the eshift models had, how are the issues with lens streaking gone? This must be in reference to the lens used in the N9 and RS4500. Kris Deering has told me this issue, with that particular lens, is gone. So I can only assume this is what is meant by it being a thing of the past.

[Peter Parker]

Seems the image noise issue hasn't been resolved unless it's simply still there because it's a pre production unit, and bright corners are still going to be an issue. I'll have a look when they're on demo later this year regarding the image noise.

Good point about the streaking and halo's in N5+7 vs N9, unless that was down to panels and light path moreso than the lens itself in which case it may be fixed for all.

[Dylan Seeger]

I would say let's wait until a production unit gets into the hands of someone familiar with the current line up of Sony and JVC projectors. There seems to be some quirks in the video processing as Ran and Arrow noted (banding, posterization, ect) that are promised to be gone by the time production units hit the market. The noise may be similar. Alternatively, it could also have been some of the video content itself that has this noise encoded in it. Ran did mention the N9 was being displayed on a much larger screen than his so this may have given a misrepresentation of noise he simply can't see at his seating distance on his screen size. We also need to remember that JVCs are far better at keeping noise that's in the source compared to Sony 4K models. The Sony models have built in non-defeatable noise reduction so the JVC may appear to be noisier when it fact it's just displaying the source material more closely than the Sonys are. My 2-cents until we actually see this in person. I have faith JVC will get things right as they normally do even if it takes some time to fix them.

[Peter Parker]

Possibly, but the JVCs have for a long time now add their own noise that isn't in the source, and they even said they'd eliminated it with eshicft 5 (but it was still there), so that's an acknowledgement of the artifact. As you say though, it could just be because this unit as a pre-pro so could be fixed in the release models. I'll probably get a look nearer to Christmas and see for myself.

I've a concern that with eshift being visibly very close to 4K when doing split screen comparisons, JVCs pricing may be a little high right now compared to the eshift models, unless they expect the 4K marketing to push more sales. At least they've managed to release these with improved on/off compared to the 4K competition to keep themselves as the market leaders which should help sales.

[Dylan Seeger]

Agreed. Yeah, I know what you mean with the fine mosquito noise with eshift enabled. I had a hard time seeing it from my seated distance but it was definitely there. The noise Ran mentioned sounds like some form of excessive noise. Though eshift is now gone on the N5 and N7, so I hope this is just a pre-production software quirk.

[Pultzar]

This noise, is it the rapid unsteadiness that appears even on a static image that people are talking about?

Does the RS4500 have this?
Does Sony have this?