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2018 CEDIA projector thread

Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #225 on: October 20, 2018, 07:45:56 AM »
I think most people are well aware of the Sony issues (banding, noise reduction etc which has been there for ages, panel degradation may be fixed though), but I don't think you're doing yourself any favours by referring to Sony owners as 'fanboys' just because that's their preference. It could just as easily be said that you're a JVC fanboy and have bias, especially given your reaction to Ekki's comments. Don't take it so personally.

It's just a question of balance and what people prefer. You clearly don't like the Sony's and prefer the JVCs, whereas others are the other way round, yet that doesn't seem acceptable to you.

The JVC dither noise isn't just in dark areas, and JVC are well aware of the issue because they said that with eshift 5 they have reduced the image noise (part of their marketing blurb), so that's a clear admission that it's a pj artefact (and not a source artefact) that they're trying to remedy that. Ekki was just pointing out that it still seems to be present in the new 4K models and I don't see anything wrong with that, in the same way he's saying the banding is still present in the new Sony models. The JVC image noise is something that doesn't bother you, in the same way that the banding etc of the Sony's doesn't bother other people, but I don't see why the people with a Sony preference should be attacked for it and labelled as fanboys. Both have pros and cons and people are just choosing the image they prefer at the price point they can afford.




The noise related to eshift is not the same issue Ekki and I are referring to. So no, its not there in all portions of the image. The noise you're thinking of is related solely to eshift as it's not there with eshift turned off. You really need to know these differences if you're going to argue with me. To reiterate this Ekki's quoted as saying "Panel PWM noise in dark grayscale as in the X series, I have specially checked with a freeze frame." Remember, the N5 is native 4K so no eshift so that only furthers my point even more.

This is not about fanboyism. Again, it's about being fair. I don't take issue with him not liking the dither noise. To each their own.  It's about being fair and talking about issues and giving them criticism based on the severity of them. To give one a pass, when it objectively does more harm to the image compared to the other issue is not fair. Plain and simple.

Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #226 on: October 20, 2018, 08:06:57 AM »
I would like to add that calling me a JVC fanboy seems odd to me. I've had a Sony projector from every single generation since 2010 in my theater. I've given Sony plenty of money over the years. I give Sony a shot pretty much every year. Sometimes more than once a year if I have two different models here. A fanboy is someone who defends a brand while not actually having experience with it. How many JVCs have you actually had in your theater over the years? How many eshifters? I prefer JVC because I have real world experience having owned pretty much all of the well performing home theater projectors out there over the years (minus a few uber expensive ones) and think they perform best overall. I understand that some people may still like SXRD despite the objective issues present with the projectors and that's fine, but when SXRD has issues for some reason SXRD owners have a hard time accepting them. That isn't the case with JVC owners. We openly talk about bright corners, dither noise, long sync times, ect. At even a whisper of panel degradation, poor quality control, banding, posterization, ect the owners go into mitigation mode to quiet the nay-sayers and change the topic back to "there's nothing to see here/our projectors are amazing". I've noticed lately that Sony fanboys, in what I assume are in some kind of panic mode now that JVC has cheaper native 4K machines, they're go to line is that JVC projectors are riddled with image noise and the video processing is no where near as good as what Sony offers. I've read the phrase "processing prowess" a few times regarding the Sony's. Both of these claims about the JVCs I find to be hilarious and an indicator of how desperate some are getting. Just ask Kris Deering what test patterns look like on Sony projectors. I can confirm his findings. Processing prowess indeed. This forum doesn't have a eye roll emoji which is unfortunate.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 08:26:43 AM by Dylan Seeger »

Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #227 on: October 20, 2018, 08:22:43 AM »
The noise related to eshift is not the same issue Ekki and I are referring to. So no, its not there in all portions of the image. The noise you're thinking of is related solely to eshift as it's not there with eshift turned off. You really need to know these differences if you're going to argue with me. To reiterate this Ekki's quoted as saying "Panel PWM noise in dark grayscale as in the X series, I have specially checked with a freeze frame." Remember, the N5 is native 4K so no eshift so that only furthers my point even more.

This is not about fanboyism. Again, it's about being fair. I don't take issue with him not liking the dither noise. To each their own.  It's about being fair and talking about issues and giving them criticism based on the severity of them. To give one a pass, when it objectively does more harm to the image compared to the other issue is not fair. Plain and simple.

Wow.

I don't think I'm the one 'arguing' here, especially given the amount of replies you made to me and the aggressiveness of the replies. I'm just trying to have a discussion, but I can see where this is going. So because I don't agree with your comments I don't know what I'm talking about so my experience etc can be dismissed and I'm to shut up and go away. Nice one Dylan. I didn't know this forum was for self appointed elitists.

Regardless, the JVC image noise is real and when compared with Sony's and Epsons side by side in split screens from normal seating distances it can be clearly seen that it's being added by the JVC. JVC are aware of this and have tried to reduce it with eshift 5, so JVC don't seem to agree with you either.

On to your other point. Now, if the panels are driven digitally then it's a drive problem, not an eshift problem, and I'm pretty sure it was there before eshift was even a thing - IIRC, and off the top of my head, I believe the early JVCs were driving the panels analogue but then went to digital so they could drive them faster, and that's when the image noise was added. I think even Greg Rogers may have mentioned it in one of his reviews back in the day.

If the 4K panels are driven digitally in the same way as the old 1080 panels, and the noise is still there because of it, I don't see it being a problem that Ekki has reported that - what's unfair about that? Simply because you think Ekki has said he thinks it's more of an issue than Sony's known issues? I think Ekki was being pretty fair, but you seem to have taken it personally and even started to attack me as well now.

All going well I'll be seeing an N5 on Tuesday and I'll see for myself if the image noise is still present and if it's still an issue or not.




Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #228 on: October 20, 2018, 08:33:23 AM »
I didn't say you didn't know what you're talking about. I said if you're going to argue you need to know the differences because they are paramount to the discussion. This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing either. The noise is either there or it isn't and where it comes from matters. You said it comes from eshift, it doesn't. How can it when Ekki is looking at a native 4K, non eshift, projector? There is added noise with eshift, I agree with that, but we're talking about the N5 here, which does not use eshift so your point is moot. The N5 won't have the same noise you've mistakenly associated here as the noise Ekki and I are referring to. Ekki says dither noise in lower IRE's is still there. I'm not arguing against that. I just have a huge disagreement with him in how much worse posterization is on the Sony projectors and specifically that he gives it a pass.


Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #229 on: October 20, 2018, 10:24:44 AM »
When I owned the LS10000, I A'B it to an RS400 I had here.  From my seating distance with content from Planet Earth, I could not see any difference as far as video noise.  My vision is at least 20/15 and anyone that knows me knows I see issues pretty readily.  Closer to the screen, sure, things/warts can become noticeable.




Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #230 on: October 20, 2018, 02:46:04 PM »
The LS10000 was a great projector. I didn't have the chance to have one in my theater, but I was invited over someones house to view and measure one for about 8 hours. At the time I had brought over my JVC DLA-X500 for comparison. The two units were pretty close in most areas. The JVC's lens was ever so slightly sharper, eshift on the JVC (being the 3rd generation) was more mature and better implemented and the JVC definitely had more contrast available. I did think the Epson had one of the best dynamic contrast systems I've ever seen. Probably THE best I've seen and I thought the Epson had a slightly more analog look to its image. It's a shame we haven't seen Epson update the LS series to achieve more brightness, native 4K and more contrast. It definitely could have been a contender for best overall image out there if they had.

Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #231 on: October 21, 2018, 08:15:27 AM »
If anyone recalls, I had four different units through Epson swaps (3 of the units were A stock) because of unacceptable grey uniformity.  The one unit I tried to live with and even had Chad calibrate it hoping the greyscale calibration would help, but it didn't in this case.  I too found eshift 4 a bit sharper on the JVC based on my comparisons.  Outside of that, I liked the LS10000 enough that I would have just kept it until eventuality going native 4K.  However, I ended up with a nice sample RS440 which is a superior projector all of the way around except for it not being laser based.  But, I'm only around 600 or so hours a year as far as usage and these new JVC lamps are very stable.  In fact, I am so happy with my RS440 paired with the Panasonic 820 for tone mapping that it's hard for me to justify the cost of selling it and buying an RS1000 or RS2000 - not sure if the several thousands of dollars of upgrade cost would be worth it for me.  When it comes to projectors, I've also tended to more recently lean more on the "if you're happy with it and it's not broke, don't try to fix it".
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 08:17:09 AM by DavidHir »

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Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #232 on: October 22, 2018, 08:18:51 AM »
The LS10000 was a great projector. I didn't have the chance to have one in my theater, but I was invited over someones house to view and measure one for about 8 hours. At the time I had brought over my JVC DLA-X500 for comparison. The two units were pretty close in most areas. The JVC's lens was ever so slightly sharper, eshift on the JVC (being the 3rd generation) was more mature and better implemented and the JVC definitely had more contrast available. I did think the Epson had one of the best dynamic contrast systems I've ever seen. Probably THE best I've seen and I thought the Epson had a slightly more analog look to its image. It's a shame we haven't seen Epson update the LS series to achieve more brightness, native 4K and more contrast. It definitely could have been a contender for best overall image out there if they had.

Maybe next year Epson will upgrade this to native 4K, eh ? One can hope.
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Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #233 on: October 22, 2018, 09:23:39 AM »
wait...

did i click on the avsforum bookmark by accident?

whats up with all the bickering

btw the answer to my own question is a resounding no.....there would have been bans issued already hahaha

Re: 2018 CEDIA projector thread
« Reply #234 on: October 22, 2018, 01:47:02 PM »
wait...

did i click on the avsforum bookmark by accident?

whats up with all the bickering

btw the answer to my own question is a resounding no.....there would have been bans issued already hahaha

No two people agree or know the same things. Things get heated sometimes especially when "fanboy" naming happens. :)

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