AVS Discussions
Projectors => Premium Projectors => Topic started by: Dylan Seeger on March 15, 2019, 09:29:51 PM
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I had the opportunity today to see a BenQ LK990 locally at someones home. I don't know if Calvin is a member here, but this is his theater:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-dedicated-theater-design-construction/2027913-vista.html
Really nice theater setup and a KILLER sound system. Even though we spent about 4 and half hours in the theater we didn't get a lot accomplished. Most of the time was spent swapping back and forth between my JVC RS2000 and his LK990. Unfortunately I was having some odd issues with my HTPC (I intended on showing him how madVR worked) so the majority of what we watched was on his Panasonic DP-UB820. I didn't get the chance to calibrate the LK990. But even still the image it threw didn't look too far off from reference. There was a bit of extra red present in the white balance and I could tell the color was a bit over saturated (as expected with the laser). Nothing too bad though.
In HDR mode, with the laser maxed out and the lens pretty close to max zoom, I measured a peak lumen output of 3946 lumens. Native contrast was 1,007:1 and enabling smart eco mode (the LK990's dynamic dimming mode) boosted dynamic contrast to 3,965:1. Unfortunately those were the only measurements I was able to take. I might get the chance to go back and take another look at some point down the road and put the projector through a calibration.
Some thoughts on image quality. Yes, contrast didn't look as good as it did on the JVC, but with dynamic dimming engaged with as much brightness as it had, the image never looked as bad as the numbers might indicate. There really is something to say about the extra brightness that tricks your brain into thinking there's more contrast than there actually is. With that said, no, I never got the same feeling about this projector that some on the other forum talk about. There is no magic sauce with the LK990 that makes me reconsider my JVC RS2000 purchase. That's not to say it's a bad projector as that isn't the case at all, I just didn't see what the others are talking about.
We pulled up the Quick Brown Fox single pixel test pattern and the LK990 does extremely well with this test pattern, better than what I remember seeing on the Optoma UHD65. Better than the Sony VPL-VW695ES I recently reviewed. The RS2000, being true 4K did do better, essentially flawless. Image sharpness is on par with the RS2000 with video content. I couldn't really tell them apart in this regard. Maybe with the right content the higher resolution JVC might pull ahead, but the extra brightness of the LK990 might make you think it's sharper sometimes too.
I did notice some odd motion artifacts on the LK990. Panning shots looked as if the projector was being fed 60p even though it was being sent 24p. The RS2000 was buttery smooth by comparison. I also noticed rainbow effect on the LK990, though this is to be expected as it's single chip DLP with a color wheel and 4000 lumens on tap.
I wished the LK990 allowed for a more customized menu item experience. For instance, you can only enable HDR mode if there is a flag sent. And when the flag is sent you're locked into HDR mode. The JVC allows you to place the projector into HDR mode without the flag or take it out of HDR mode when a flag is sent. You also cannot use smart eco mode (dynamic dimming) without the laser being maxed out. This is a bit unfortunate as Calvin's 130" 2.35:1 screen didn't need 4000 lumens at all times. It would be nice for the ability to lower the laser and then enable smart eco.
In general the LK990 looked very good, but couldn't match the JVC in terms of contrast, black level, image pop and three-dimensionality. Even still, this might be one of the best high brightness HDR capable DLP options out there for those who love DLP as long as you can live with the limited contrast (even for DLP projectors) and the somewhat limited menu options.
(https://i.imgur.com/XVUa9mR.jpg)
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Nice writeup. Thank you :)
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Thanks Dylan. Nice to get more comparison info on this projector. Really strange not allowing Smarteco, except at full output. I wonder if the 970 has this same limitation.
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At the end of the day, it's still the same age old argument between DLP and LCoS-type projectors. There are pro's and con's to each. I will say the lens on the LK990 is very nice, though at its price it's a shame it's not motorized and for those with HUGE screens, all that brightness can go a long way.
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Yep, has been that way for ages. If you have a large screen and need the brightness, DLP can do that, but at a cost in contrast. This new breed has only made the contrast situation worse.
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Thanks for this. What size screen and how many foot lamberts were you getting ?
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I see some people confused about how to adjust the laser light source. This is from the user manual for the LK990:
(https://i.imgur.com/nu1MYNN.png)
The graph above explains it very well. Normal is full brightness, Economic and Dimming lower the laser level with one setting lowering it enough to allow for quieter fan operation and then Custom allows you to set a specific manual setting of laser output. You cannot use two modes at once so you can't set a Custom laser level and keep that setting to work in conjunction with Smart Eco. Only Smart Eco does dynamic dimming, and it only works with 100% laser output, starting from 100% output adjusting from there down to enhance contrast. Smart Eco does not lower peak lumen output, as Dave Harper says. I measured the same peak white level with Smart Eco engaged as I did with the projector in Normal mode (aka full laser output).
Again, the important thing to note is that you're forced to use full laser output if you want dynamic contrast engaged in Smart Eco mode. You'd have to use an ND filter if you want to cut extra light and use dynamic dimming. Maybe BenQ will provide a firmware update changing how all of this works, but as it stands, these are your only options.
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I see some people confused about how to adjust the laser light source. This is from the user manual for the LK990:
(https://i.imgur.com/nu1MYNN.png)
The graph above explains it very well. Normal is full brightness, Economic and Dimming lower the laser level with one setting lowering it enough to allow for quieter fan operation and then Custom allows you to set a specific manual setting of laser output. You cannot use two modes at once so you can't set a Custom laser level and keep that setting to work in conjunction with Smart Eco. Only Smart Eco does dynamic dimming, and it only works with 100% laser output, starting from 100% output adjusting from there down to enhance contrast. Smart Eco does not lower peak lumen output, as Dave Harper says. I measured the same peak white level with Smart Eco engaged as I did with the projector in Normal mode (aka full laser output).
Again, the important thing to note is that you're forced to use full laser output if you want dynamic contrast engaged in Smart Eco mode. You'd have to use an ND filter if you want to cut extra light and use dynamic dimming. Maybe BenQ will provide a firmware update changing how all of this works, but as it stands, these are your only options.
Ruined is the one who said SmartEco was lower by 20-25% compared to Normal mode. I am the one who corrected him and pointed out that was wrong after reading Chris’ review at Secrets. I said there is also some auto dimming going on in Normal and Eco Modes with their Automatic Power Control feature.
12GAGE measured that when using a 100% white pattern that it did not go to full power on the chassis/laser, but in actual content it would, like it would hold it in reserves for when needed. This must be part of their Automatic Power Control.
I’m not sure I can agree with your assessment at all that the JVC will have more pop, sharpness and detail than these LKs. It sounds to me like you ran the stock HDR mode, which I am sure isn’t as good as my custom settings. Who knows though, as the LK990 is a whole new beast which I haven’t gotten here yet. I should have one by next weekend though.
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Ruined is the one who said SmartEco was lower by 20-25% compared to Normal mode. I am the one who corrected him and pointed out that was wrong after reading Chris’ review at Secrets. I said there is also some auto dimming going on in Normal and Eco Modes with their Automatic Power Control feature.
12GAGE measured that when using a 100% white pattern that it did not go to full power on the chassis/laser, but in actual content it would, like it would hold it in reserves for when needed. This must be part of their Automatic Power Control.
I’m not sure I can agree with your assessment at all that the JVC will have more pop, sharpness and detail than these LKs. It sounds to me like you ran the stock HDR mode, which I am sure isn’t as good as my custom settings. Who knows though, as the LK990 is a whole new beast which I haven’t gotten here yet. I should have one by next weekend though.
I'm referring to this (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/3025300-benq-lk990-8.html#post57755744) post where you say:
I’m not sure that makes sense at all Mike. SmartEco is a Mode, and so is the Custom Brightness option. SmartEco is dimmer overall than Normal Mode (100%) or Custom at 100% laser. If you’re showing SDR in SmartEco, I don’t think it goes all the way to peak white unless the scene calls for it, does it? I am sure it’s brighter than Eco mode of course, but don’t think it’s 100% of its laser power, based on some of @12GAGE (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/members/7541183-12gage.html) ’s power measurements.
I measured the same peak white lumen output in Normal mode as I did smart eco mode. You say there is some dimming going on in Normal mode too. If that were true then native contrast on the LK990 is worse than 1000:1 because that's what I measured in that mode too.
You can disagree, but I wasn't the only person in the room that day and Calvin is actually the one who pointed out first telling me he thought the JVC had more depth and three-dimensionality and he is the one who owns the LK990. Is it really so hard to think that a projector with literally 23 times as much native contrast can and will look better than a projector that is so held back in this area? The image got very muddy in appearance anytime there was supposed to be darker pixels on screen. Or is it even hard to think that a projector that doesn't have to pixel shift or have more real pixels on screen can look as sharp (or sharper)? Please, let's come back to sanity here and talk about the LK990 as it really is. It's a bright business projector with a decent lens. It's not a home theater projector. BenQ themselves doesn't market it that way.
What you're also saying is that owners need to jump through hoops to get what you say are much better HDR results. You're going to need something that can strip the HDR flag if you even want to consider using your method of doing things. That's an extra several hundred dollars on top of the BenQ's cost to buy an HDFury product. Anytime you send HDR with a flag you're locked into HDR mode. The option to go to a different mode is greyed out. Even if you get an HDFury product you're still stuck choosing between max brightness with Smart Eco mode, boosting contrast to only 4000:1 or choosing a specific laser level and 1000:1. It's not image settings that make HDR perform less than the JVC, it's the extremely limited native contrast on the LK990 that makes it hard to compete. No set of settings can help contrast performance even more than this. I'm not trying to say the LK990 is a bad projector. It isn't. I just think some of the discussions about it is giving people the wrong impression on how it performs relative to the competition near its price point.
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I'm referring to this (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/3025300-benq-lk990-8.html#post57755744) post where you say:
I measured the same peak white lumen output in Normal mode as I did smart eco mode. You say there is some dimming going on in Normal mode too. If that were true then native contrast on the LK990 is worse than 1000:1 because that's what I measured in that mode too.
You can disagree, but I wasn't the only person in the room that day and Calvin is actually the one who pointed out first telling me he thought the JVC had more depth and three-dimensionality and he is the one who owns the LK990. Is it really so hard to think that a projector with literally 23 times as much native contrast can and will look better than a projector that is so held back in this area? The image got very muddy in appearance anytime there was supposed to be darker pixels on screen. Or is it even hard to think that a projector that doesn't have to pixel shift or have more real pixels on screen can look as sharp (or sharper)? Please, let's come back to sanity here and talk about the LK990 as it really is. It's a bright business projector with a decent lens. It's not a home theater projector. BenQ themselves doesn't market it that way.
What you're also saying is that owners need to jump through hoops to get what you say are much better HDR results. You're going to need something that can strip the HDR flag if you even want to consider using your method of doing things. That's an extra several hundred dollars on top of the BenQ's cost to buy an HDFury product. Anytime you send HDR with a flag you're locked into HDR mode. The option to go to a different mode is greyed out. Even if you get an HDFury product you're still stuck choosing between max brightness with Smart Eco mode, boosting contrast to only 4000:1 or choosing a specific laser level and 1000:1. It's not image settings that make HDR perform less than the JVC, it's the extremely limited native contrast on the LK990 that makes it hard to compete. No set of settings can help contrast performance even more than this. I'm not trying to say the LK990 is a bad projector. It isn't. I just think some of the discussions about it is giving people the wrong impression on how it performs relative to the competition near its price point.
OK thanks for clearing up which post you were referring to. I thought it was in reference to my conversation with Mike over there. I still stand by what I said though, "...SmartEco is dimmer overall…", because it is auto dimming the image and black floor and lowers average picture level overall.
Please speak with @12GAGE in regards to what he measured in relation to power. When you input a 100% white pattern the projector doesn't go to its peak output, but when you use actual content the whites get to 100% power. So that means it actually has higher contrast in real world images. You apparently can't use a white field pattern to measure overall contrast due to the projector's Automatic Power Control feature, which it doesn't seem can be turned off unless you use the Custom Brightness Mode.
All I am saying about what you saw with the image pop and three dimensionality is that since you were most likely using the stock HDR mode, then the projector wasn't setup in its optimal state as it would be if you had time to calibrate and tweak it, just like you most likely did with your JVC. It isn't "jumping through hoops" setting it up with mine or other's settings either, anymore so than calibrating a projector, downloading custom curves and defeating Gamma D like we used to with the JVCs, downloading German Gamma curves for Sonys and all the other tweaks that have been discussed on AVS. It is actually easier if you ask me than doing all that, especially if you have my baseline settings to start with, which I easily share for all that wants it. I don't know if you even have to use an HDFury yet with the LK990. I may be able to implement settings in the HDR mode to replicate what I do on the LK970. I will know hopefully after this coming weekend if my LK990 arrives before Friday.
BTW, did you have a chance to totally calibrate and tweak the LK990 like I am sure your JVC was? If not, how could that even be a fair comparison then? If you didn't, then who calibrated his LK990, or did anyone at all?
It is quite apparent that the LK990 there wasn't in an optimal state when you take into consideration all the replies and glowing reviews, even of it having good enough black levels and contrast overall, over on AVSF. This machine is far from "a bright business projector with a decent lens". This also happened with woofer's initial comparison, which he's since redone and updated his impressions to be much better than initially thought. These LK models are easily just as good or better than anything in the same price range (if you'd bother optimizing it properly, but they're awesome OOTB too actually) and even outperform the ones that are 3-6 times as much (RS4500, VW885ES, VW995ES) in many areas, as is clearly being discovered by many now over on "the other forum". Everyone there is saying it is sharper and more detailed than the RS4500, but you seem to be saying otherwise compared to an RS2000, so something doesn't add up.
It seems you are the one in the very small minority to think what you're saying here about them, maybe the ONLY one actually. So getting back to sanity is more on your end I would think. I am not going to go round and round with you here Dylan. You are a great and VERY knowledgeable guy, but I believe you are making rash judgements with limited time, calibration and tweaking on this model, as clearly evidenced by the many, many more saying otherwise. I will just let the majority speak for itself.
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OK thanks for clearing up which post you were referring to. I thought it was in reference to my conversation with Mike over there. I still stand by what I said though, "...SmartEco is dimmer overall…", because it is auto dimming the image and black floor and lowers average picture level overall.
Yes, but that is true for any dynamic contrast system. For peak white, SmartEco is the same as Normal mode. This means both modes force full brightness when the APL of the content is higher.
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Yes, but that is true for any dynamic contrast system. For peak white, SmartEco is the same as Normal mode. This means both modes force full brightness when the APL of the content is higher.
Sorry, I accidentally hit SAVE before I was done replying. There is more to my reply above now.
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OK thanks for clearing up which post you were referring to. I thought it was in reference to my conversation with Mike over there. I still stand by what I said though, "...SmartEco is dimmer overall…", because it is auto dimming the image and black floor and lowers average picture level overall.
Please speak with @12GAGE in regards to what he measured in relation to power. When you input a 100% white pattern the projector doesn't go to its peak output, but when you use actual content the whites get to 100% power. So that means it actually has higher contrast in real world images. You apparently can't use a white field pattern to measure overall contrast due to the projector's Automatic Power Control feature, which it doesn't seem can be turned off unless you use the Custom Brightness Mode.
All I am saying about what you saw with the image pop and three dimensionality is that since you were most likely using the stock HDR mode, then the projector wasn't setup in its optimal state as it would be if you had time to calibrate and tweak it, just like you most likely did with your JVC. It isn't "jumping through hoops" setting it up with mine or other's settings either, anymore so than calibrating a projector, downloading custom curves and defeating Gamma D like we used to with the JVCs, downloading German Gamma curves for Sonys and all the other tweaks that have been discussed on AVS. It is actually easier if you ask me than doing all that, especially if you have my baseline settings to start with, which I easily share for all that wants it. I don't know if you even have to use an HDFury yet with the LK990. I may be able to implement settings in the HDR mode to replicate what I do on the LK970. I will know hopefully after this coming weekend if my LK990 arrives before Friday.
BTW, did you have a chance to totally calibrate and tweak the LK990 like I am sure your JVC was? If not, how could that even be a fair comparison then? If you didn't, then who calibrated his LK990, or did anyone at all?
It is quite apparent that the LK990 there wasn't in an optimal state when you take into consideration all the replies and glowing reviews, even of it having good enough black levels and contrast overall, over on AVSF. This machine is far from "a bright business projector with a decent lens". This also happened with woofer's initial comparison, which he's since redone and updated his impressions to be much better than initially thought. These LK models are easily just as good or better than anything in the same price range (if you'd bother optimizing it properly, but they're awesome OOTB too actually) and even outperform the ones that are 3-6 times as much (RS4500, VW885ES, VW995ES) in many areas, as is clearly being discovered by many now over on "the other forum". Everyone there is saying it is sharper and more detailed than the RS4500, but you seem to be saying otherwise compared to an RS2000, so something doesn't add up.
It seems you are the one in the very small minority to think what you're saying here about them, maybe the ONLY one actually. So getting back to sanity is more on your end I would think. I am not going to go round and round with you here Dylan. You are a great and VERY knowledgeable guy, but I believe you are making rash judgements with limited time, calibration and tweaking on this model, as clearly evidenced by the many, many more saying otherwise. I will just let the majority speak for itself.
So what you're saying is, when you have all pixels at 100% white (as test patterns to measure contrast do) the projector doesn't output at 100%? Specifically what content can I display to show that this is how the projector functions? @12GAGE can you provide some more information here? Calvin is only a 15 minute drive from me and I"m sure he'd gladly host me again to verify this. No, I didn't put the projector through a full calibration but that rarely affects contrast performance in a huge way and usually contrast performance gets worse, not better after calibration.
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I don't know if 12GAGE posts here, Dave, could you PM him and ask him to post here or PM me here so I can get some more information about this? I've never encountered a projector that functions like this and I'd like to go back and test this out but I need some direction on what content I can use to verify this. Will an ANSI contrast test pattern allow for this behavior? Does Custom mode for the laser get rid of the dynamic dimming you're referring to?
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Looking through the LK970's user manual it makes no mention of a dynamic contrast system at all. so I can only assume this means it's on at all times then. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say what BenQ has done is added the SmartEco mode on the LK990 to give you the option to enable or disable the dynamic dimming. This way it's not on at all times.
Dave, seeing how you still haven't gotten your hands on the LK990, and it's software is definitely different than the LK970's, I'm going to stand by my assertions. If 12GAGE can get in contact with me to tell me what I should be doing to measure differently I will hold fast to my statements until he can guide me in the right direction.
It's also worth pointing out that the user manual states for Normal laser mode, which is one of the modes I used to measure ~1000:1 native contrast, "Provides Full Light Source Brightness" so again, I'm sticking to my statements. You can see this in the photo I posted above.
Dave, can you point me in the direction of the LK970/990 review you were talking about? I only see a BenQ HT9060 review on Secret's website.
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Dave, I'm going back this Friday to play with the LK990 again. I will do a calibration on the projector. What settings do you recommend me use for HDR content? I will try those. I want to be sure I'm giving the LK990 a fair shake and want to try your settings.
I also want to tone map to SDR and compare projectors that way too. I think this way will take as many differing variables out of the equation.
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Dave, I did some digging. I'm assuming these are your "HarperVision"settings?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2917348-benq-lk970-4k-dlp-laser-12-999k-msrp-23.html#post57478486
Calvin has a Panasonic DP-UB820 so I should be able to copy them verbatim. Please let me know if you have any other thoughts. I see you're recommending Custom laser mode set to 100 (full power). So no dynamic dimming?
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Would you be able to test input lag as well Dylan?
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Would you be able to test input lag as well Dylan?
Yes, I own a Leo Bodnar input lag tester. The issue is that it only outputs 1080p. But I've read if you measure the middle flashing box this simulates a 4K input. I'll let you know Friday after I spend some time with it.
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Do you have hdfury integral and linker?
From Rtings:
To test the input lag of 4k and HDR signals, the output of the Leo Bodnar tool is passed first through an HDFury Integral, then an HDFury Linker, before finally outputting to the TV. The HDFury Linker can perform many modifications to the video signal without adding measurable input lag, including upscaling the signal to 4k and adding HDR metadata. All our input lag tests were done using this HDFury chain, including the 1080p tests, to remain consistent.
https://www.rtings.com/company/input-lag-tool (https://www.rtings.com/company/input-lag-tool)
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I own an Integral and I think Calvin (the LK990's owner) has a Linker. We'll try and measure input lag on both the JVC and BenQ this way on Friday.
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Dave, I'm going back this Friday to play with the LK990 again. I will do a calibration on the projector. What settings do you recommend me use for HDR content? I will try those. I want to be sure I'm giving the LK990 a fair shake and want to try your settings.
I also want to tone map to SDR and compare projectors that way too. I think this way will take as many differing variables out of the equation.
I highly doubt my LK970 settings will work on the LK990. They didn’t transfer from the Epson LS10000 to the LS10500 which was a similar upgrade.
No I wouldn’t use Custom at 100% Power. I must’ve had that on accidentally while playing with it and didn't realize when I posted it there. I would use SmartEco or at worst Normal so there’s dimming.
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You have no recommendations whatsoever? The projector really doesn't seem too different than the LK970. I'm only asking because I don't want to hear from you or others that I haven't set the projector up properly if I go back and don't see better picture quality results. You said:
It is actually easier if you ask me than doing all that, especially if you have my baseline settings to start with, which I easily share for all that wants it....BTW, did you have a chance to totally calibrate and tweak the LK990 like I am sure your JVC was? If not, how could that even be a fair comparison then? If you didn't, then who calibrated his LK990, or did anyone at all?
It is quite apparent that the LK990 there wasn't in an optimal state when you take into consideration all the replies and glowing reviews, even of it having good enough black levels and contrast overall, over on AVSF.
What will constitute an optimal state? I will do D65/REC709 calibration and use madVR's tone mapping (the best out there) to send the same tone mapped image to both projectors. I will even try the UB820's tone mapping too. Will this be a fair way to compare them? If I don't have your settings which you say are better than the built-in HDR settings I guess it's pointless to use HDR mode altogether. Calibrating both to D65/REC709 and sending the same tone mapped image will put both in the the closest state to one another I can think of. It will remove as many image setting variables and level the playing field. Do you agree?
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You have no recommendations whatsoever? The projector really doesn't seem too different than the LK970. I'm only asking because I don't want to hear from you or others that I haven't set the projector up properly if I go back and don't see better picture quality results. You said:
What will constitute an optimal state? I will do D65/REC709 calibration and use madVR's tone mapping (the best out there) to send the same tone mapped image to both projectors. I will even try the UB820's tone mapping too. Will this be a fair way to compare them? If I don't have your settings which you say are better than the built-in HDR settings I guess it's pointless to use HDR mode altogether. Calibrating both to D65/REC709 and sending the same tone mapped image will put both in the the closest state to one another I can think of. It will remove as many image setting variables and level the playing field. Do you agree?
Not really. It is very different than the LK970. I had the same assumptions you are with the Epson LS10000 and LS10500 and they were totally different.
Just as you don’t want anyone coming back on you if you don’t see a difference, I don’t want YOU coming back on ME saying it sucks when the settings don’t translate well or at all.
I don't use tone mapping to SDR/BT2020. I use full HDR/BT2020 so there’s going to be a difference right there anyway.
I am not the only one saying my settings are better than stock HDR settings and I can almost guarantee they will be on the LK990 as well.
I was just told today that my LK990 isn’t shipping today so i should have further info soon. Have patience. I guess for now just test its stock HDR calibrated and then both with MadVR tone mapping as an interim and then maybe later try what I get on it after I have those settings.
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Fair enough. I think I'll still plug your settings in (while using SmartEco mode instead of Custom) just to see what they look like. I still plan on measuring Custom mode for native contrast as you guys are saying this is the only mode that truly has no dynamic laser stuff going on. Then I'll switch over to the tone mapped content. I hope I have enough time with the LK990 to get everything accomplished. I want to do split screen photos as well to try and help facilitate roughly, in photo form, the relative differences Calvin and I see on Friday. I will do my best to get photos if we have enough time.
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Fair enough. I think I'll still plug your settings in (while using SmartEco mode instead of Custom) just to see what they look like. I still plan on measuring Custom mode for native contrast as you guys are saying this is the only mode that truly has no dynamic laser stuff going on. Then I'll switch over to the tone mapped content. I hope I have enough time with the LK990 to get everything accomplished. I want to do split screen photos as well to try and help facilitate roughly, in photo form, the relative differences Calvin and I see on Friday. I will do my best to get photos if we have enough time.
I am having an LK990 sent to me in the next couple weeks directly from BenQ Australia in which I should get a couple weeks time to play with it. I certainly think MadVR is going to by the best HDR rendition by a mile, there is no competition, sorry. No static settings can do what this does on a frame by frame basis with dynamic clipping to boot.
I am most interested to see what kind of image I get with peak nits up well over 200, since that's what I will get on my screen, since tone mapping will map true 1:1 pixels from 0-200 unlike any other HDR tone mapping (sans Lumagen), so in that sense low APL content will be the same as I already get here (as you know that's how the tone mapping works), but I am most interested to see what the highlights are going to do, should look pretty excellent with all that brightness on tap.
I will measure the ADL contrast range here too so there will be another data set at least to compare to. I am pretty interested in what it measures above 5% and all the way to ANSI. Under that is going to be a challenge obviously.
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Wonderful! If I had the projector to play with at my house I could do all of this too, but I'll only have a few hours on Friday to try and accomplish as much as I can. I'm glad someone else who really knows what they're doing is getting their hands on the LK990. Please post your findings here when you get the chance.
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I still do not get it with these DLP's. We have had bright sharp DLP's for a long time and they have never been able to compete against the projectors with higher contrast, as long as the higher contrast projector was bright enough to light up the screen. I get to see many of these DLP's at CEDIA every year. They look great on bright colorful content, but as soon as you go to a dark APL scene, the image falls apart. Now if you are talking about a screen that would require a high contrast projector that is above your budget, then these DLP's look like a good option. I see no way this projector is better than the 400k Barco and even the Barco falls apart when you throw low ADL scenes at it.
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I still do not get it with these DLP's. We have had bright sharp DLP's for a long time and they have never been able to compete against the projectors with higher contrast, as long as the higher contrast projector was bright enough to light up the screen. I get to see many of these DLP's at CEDIA every year. They look great on bright colorful content, but as soon as you go to a dark APL scene, the image falls apart. Now if you are talking about a screen that would require a high contrast projector that is above your budget, then these DLP's look like a good option. I see no way this projector is better than the 400k Barco and even the Barco falls apart when you throw low ADL scenes at it.
The $80K Barco laser single chip DLP at Cedia ( 2017 ? ) looked horrible with dark scenes from John Wick 2. I just re-watched the same opening scene on my RS4500 with the Lumagen dynamic HDR tone mapping on, and it looked really good. 1/2 of that movie is comprised of dark scenes.
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I still do not get it with these DLP's. We have had bright sharp DLP's for a long time and they have never been able to compete against the projectors with higher contrast, as long as the higher contrast projector was bright enough to light up the screen. I get to see many of these DLP's at CEDIA every year. They look great on bright colorful content, but as soon as you go to a dark APL scene, the image falls apart. Now if you are talking about a screen that would require a high contrast projector that is above your budget, then these DLP's look like a good option. I see no way this projector is better than the 400k Barco and even the Barco falls apart when you throw low ADL scenes at it.
I hate to say it but a lot of people get taken in by the mysticism of laser and LED light sources. Many people equate these light sources as automatically making the image better. In the case of the LK990 it doesn't seem to have any of the image quality enhancements laser can offer (large color gamut capabilities and less light scatter) because the LK990 isn't using direct laser. In the case here, I don't see what the benefit is other than it lasting longer and being more stable over time than a UHP lamp. You're still stuck with a color wheel which severely limits things on top of adding issues with visible RBE. I know some don't like it, but the performance really reminds me of a business class projector that happens to have a good lens.
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I hate to say it but a lot of people get taken in by the mysticism of laser and LED light sources. Many people equate these light sources as automatically making the image better. In the case of the LK990 it doesn't seem to have any of the image quality enhancements laser can offer (large color gamut capabilities and less light scatter) because the LK990 isn't using direct laser. In the case here, I don't see what the benefit is other than it lasting longer and being more stable over time than a UHP lamp. You're still stuck with a color wheel which severely limits things on top of adding issues with visible RBE. I know some don't like it, but the performance really reminds me of a business class projector that happens to have a good lens.
It is a business class projector. With laser. The thing is, it's as bright as a VW5000, which almost nobody can afford. So, if you need the lumens, have a big screen and can give up contrast and powered lens controls ( like if you have a 16:9 screen only ), it would work for some people. Sports watchers and gamers I suppose.
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I think part of it is also room dependent. For someone with lighter walls, carpet, etc. they really need the lumens to even see the image well where as a high contrast JVC will look too dim and the APL differences will be very negligible if even noticeable. Even a moderately dark room might not show a big difference. Then, of course, if the screen is larger the lumens become even more important.
But if you have a true black cave (i,e, no windows, black carpet, black walls, velvet, etc.), it's hard to justify the lack of native contrast. I saw a BenQ HT 2050 in my room and those low APL scenes just looked awful aside from the rainbows I saw (but that is individual dependent too).
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I think part of it is also room dependent. For someone with lighter walls, carpet, etc. they really need the lumens to even see the image well where as a high contrast JVC will look too dim and the APL differences will be very negligible if even noticeable. Even a moderately dark room might not show a big difference. Then, of course, if the screen is larger the lumens become even more important.
But if you have a true black cave (i,e, no windows, black carpet, black walls, velvet, etc.), it's hard to justify the lack of native contrast. I saw a BenQ HT 2050 in my room and those low APL scenes just looked awful aside from the rainbows I saw (but that is individual dependent too).
I am wondering the same thing. That is why I am interested in Javs, Kris and Arrow seeing one. I think the room that Dylan compared his RS2000 to LK990 was a good dark room and Dylan liked the RS2000 best. Dave says this projector is special, but I have seen a lot of high brightness DLP's with good lens and all of them look fantastic on things like sports, but really suffered on low APL scenes.
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I don't want to put words into Calvin's mouth. He never told me which one he liked more overall. The only thing I know he did say is that the RS2000's image has more depth and three-dimensionality.
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I don't want to put words into Calvin's mouth. He never told me which one he liked more overall. The only thing I know he did say is that the RS2000's image has more depth and three-dimensionality.
I went back and modified my post. I guess I was remembering you saying that Calvin said the 2000 had more depth and three-dimensionality and took that as him liking the 2000 better.
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I spent the last several hours at Calvin's house. We plugged in Dave Harper's settings. Color was way off but they did subjectively improve the image's dynamic range over the stock HDR settings. I calibrated the LK990 after this. D65 greyscale was easy to calibrate but color proved more difficult. I was able to get it reasonably accurate, but not as accurate as the JVC. Someone on the other forum mentioned he had similar issues trying to calibrate citing the laser light source and/or the menu controls as the issue not providing linear color output/change. I'm sure with something like a lumagen you could calibrate to perfection, but with the built in controls it's difficult. Gamma was good. I chose the 2.3 gamma setting and it tracked very well. It didn't need any adjustment.
Contrast performance didn't improve. Overall, the image just looked washed out by comparison to the JVC with most content. Bright content looked excellent on the LK990 though. Input lag was measured in a 64.5ms. The RS2000 was 41.1ms without the low lag mode engaged.
Before I came back today Calvin decided that he was returning his LK990 and will probably replace it with an RS2000. The impression I got from what he said was that the LK990 simply lacked in image depth, three-dimensionality and dynamic range. He mentioned the JVC "looks 3D by comparison". He said he was constantly aware that the image could look a lot better with most of the content he's played back since he got the LK990 and knowing that would have bugged him too much to keep it. We both agreed on this point. That was the assessment I made the last time I was there and going back and doing a calibration didn't change that. Even though it has a ton of brightness, the contrast performance on this machine takes away a lot of potential the extra brightness could leverage over another projector. But it needs the combination of better contrast and higher brightness to do this. If it had maybe 2500:1 native it could look a lot better, but 1000:1 contrast just cannot compete with today's projectors (or projectors from 10 years ago). I hope Calvin chimes in and tells us his thoughts.
We spent some time checking out the new Panasonic color profiles firmware 2.1 added on the JVC. WOW do they look good. Better than the auto-tonemapping settings by a long shot. This was especially apparent on the bottom end of the dynamic range. The auto tonemapping has a tendency to raise the level of black. The Panasonic curves don't do this. I would recommend using the BL (basic luminance) profile as the image is much brighter overall compared to the HL (high luminance) profile.
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Thanks for the report. Matches with what I see every year at CEDIA. The LK990 would make a great sports projector. Make sure Calvin orders before the end of the month. That way he will be eligible for the free JVC lamp.
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Dylan and I had a much better session this afternoon with the BenQ and JVC. We did a lot of back and forth replaying the same scenes on each projector.
Boy did the LK990 look flat on darker material, not just torture test material, but average lower lit scenes. The low contrast creates a haze over the picture that leaves you wanting more. This was my impression even before a head to head with the RS2000. The comparison made it that much more apparent. The RS2000 has real depth and dimension in those scenes. It’s not even close.
The LK990 looks spectacular on brighter material! It’s super sharp, and very alluring. In the right environment, such as a living room where you’re fighting ambient light to watch tv, I could see this being the right choice.
In my dedicated theater where movies are my priority and I have full light control, the RS2000 is the right choice. It never looked offensive or drew attention to itself. It may not be as bright as the BenQ, but with proper tone mapping it’s bright enough on my 141” 2.35 screen.
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That's a shame on the input lag. It's a deal breaker for me.
Were you able to test whether the lk990 can achieve 100% rec 709 ?
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If it had maybe 2500:1 native it could look a lot better, but 1000:1 contrast just cannot compete with today's projectors (or projectors from 10 years ago). I hope Calvin chimes in and tells us his thoughts.
That HT2050 I saw was around 1800:1 according to most published reports I read. 1000:1? Ugh.
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That HT2050 I saw was around 1800:1 according to most published reports I read. 1000:1? Ugh.
This was measured close to maximum zoom so I suspect it could be higher with less zoom. But you'd be sacrificing lumen output (this projectors claim to fame) in doing so.
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That's a shame on the input lag. It's a deal breaker for me.
Were you able to test whether the lk990 can achieve 100% rec 709 ?
I didn't save the calibration report, so I don't know if it hit 100% or not. I don't remember the exact percentage. It was very close.
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I didn't save the calibration report, so I don't know if it hit 100% or not. I don't remember the exact percentage. It was very close.
Dylan,
Was this close to Rec709 or close to P3 ?
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Rec709. It cannot do P3 or at least not in any of the color modes I looked at.
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That HT2050 I saw was around 1800:1 according to most published reports I read. 1000:1? Ugh.
My RS4500 has the minimum native contrast required to keep me happy. Although I'm certainly willing to look at one of these if someone has one to demo close by - or at Cedia . Although Cedia demos can be problematic to say the least.
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I can all but guarantee its something similar to what woofer experienced before he figured out the proper settings. What you’re describing is NOT the way it should be. HDR movies is where this excels, so as I told woofer with the LK970, something isn’t right.
As I said previously, I am sure this is just with the stock HDR mode and most likely won’t be anywhere near as good as what I did on the LK970, so until I get the LK990 and figure it out if it can or can’t do the same or better, I would urge him to hold off returning it and making that decision.
Was this with tone mapping from HDR/BT2020 to SDR/BT2020? Was everything ruined by brightness matching his HDR (yuck!!!)? If all I did to the LK970 was an initial calibration, I doubt it would be what it is either and recall it wasn’t.
How am I not surprised with the result from there?
Wow, seems like a pretty desperate attempt to make excuses for the LK990's poor performance. We tried pretty much everything on the LK990 yesterday. We tried stock HDR settings, then your settings and then I calibrated it. We looked at tone mapped SDR content afterwards on top of sending it untouched HDR. We used both my HTPC wth madVR and Calvin's Panasonic UB820. What more would you like us to do, Dave? I mean, we ran the gamut here and literally tried everything we thought could help. Sorry, it CANNOT compete with the current Sony, Epson and JVC reflective-LCD projectors out there due to it's terrible contrast performance. It's horrendous by comparison as 1000:1 native would indicate. Yes, you can manipulate the gamma between black and white to try and trick people into thinking the LK990 has more contrast than it actually does, which your settings did do, but most of the time the image still looked washed out by comparison, but yes, it was better than stock HDR. And that wasn't with just dark content. Anytime there was mixed light and dark elements on screen you could see the image was lacking.
No we didn't brightness match because the LK990 doesn't allow for this if you want to use it's dynamic contrast system. For one movie clip we put the projector into Custom mode just to see how it would look if you turned off the dynamic contrast system (SmartEco) just in case someone wanted to tame the brightness a bit. We both literally laughed out loud it was so bad. To get the image to look even remotely good SmartEco NEEDS to be engaged. On top of this, the SmartEco mode's dynamic dimming is actually easy to see in it's operation. I only witnessed the JVC's working once and I was sure to tell Calvin when I saw it.
Please if you're going to try and slander me by telling others I didn't do something right during setup and comparison, have the decency to do it here so I can respond. I'm not an idiot. I know how a projector should look and how it should be setup. It's a bit ironic that last time you said it wasn't a fair comparison because the projector wasn't calibrated, but now that I have it still wasn't setup correctly because I wasn't using your settings. Well, which is it? Should it be calibrated to the same standards that the JVC is calibrated to or am I supposed to use your settings? To me, it doesn't matter what settings you're using because none of them can fix the horrendous contrast performance this machine has. It should be noted that this machine performs LESS than most other DLP projectors in this area so criticism is completely appropriate.
To be clear the LK990 is not a "bad" projector. It just cannot compete with the current reflective-LCD projectors in overall image quality. That was extremely evident yesterday. Calvin put it best. If you have poor light control or a large screen, the LK990 could be a good fit. But for dedicated home theater, with modest screen sizes, I can't recommend it. There are so many better choices out there and I don't just mean JVC projectors. For those who like DLP, I'd recommend picking up a used Sim2 Lumis. You can get them for less than a new BenQ LK970/LK990. There are great tone mapping solutions out there and great downscalers that could be used with the Sim2. I think the overall experience, even with it being 1080p, would be dramatically better overall.
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Will be interesting to see what Dave has to say if Javs, kris and Arrow all come back saying the same thing. I expect this DLP to look like all the other high lumen DLP's with good lenses. They all look great for bright things like sports, but fall apart with low ADL content. I am also curious how wide a color space it can do in HDR mode?
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I think Dave looks at it like we are saying the BenQ is a bad projector. That is not the case. All of the projectors at this level are good projectors. So you have to see which are the most well rounded, as in how they do with all content.
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The LK990 has a REC2020 compatibility mode but it can only be accessed if the projector is in it's HDR mode. That can only happen if the projector receives an HDR flag. Dave is suggesting owners not use HDR mode so if they use his settings (removing the flag and using one of the other picture modes) you won't have access to it. I'm sure the others will do a more comprehensive report on how it performs in this area as they'll have a lot more time with the projector.
Who knows, maybe Calvin's unit was an under-performer and the units the others get will perform better? I didn't get the chance to measure the projector at the opposite end of the zoom range so there's the opportunity for more contrast there, but I doubt much. If this unit had, say, 2500:1 or a bit more, I think it would have looked a lot better. But at this level of image brightness I'd say it's extremely hard at this price level to get this much contrast from DLP.
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Wow, seems like a pretty desperate attempt to make excuses for the LK990's poor performance. We tried pretty much everything on the LK990 yesterday. We tried stock HDR settings, then your settings and then I calibrated it. We looked at tone mapped SDR content afterwards on top of sending it untouched HDR. We used both my HTPC wth madVR and Calvin's Panasonic UB820. What more would you like us to do, Dave? I mean, we ran the gamut here and literally tried everything we thought could help. Sorry, it CANNOT compete with the current Sony, Epson and JVC reflective-LCD projectors out there due to it's terrible contrast performance. It's horrendous by comparison as 1000:1 native would indicate. Yes, you can manipulate the gamma between black and white to try and trick people into thinking the LK990 has more contrast than it actually does, which your settings did do, but most of the time the image still looked washed out by comparison, but yes, it was better than stock HDR. And that wasn't with just dark content. Anytime there was mixed light and dark elements on screen you could see the image was lacking.
No we didn't brightness match because the LK990 doesn't allow for this if you want to use it's dynamic contrast system. For one movie clip we put the projector into Custom mode just to see how it would look if you turned off the dynamic contrast system (SmartEco) just in case someone wanted to tame the brightness a bit. We both literally laughed out loud it was so bad. To get the image to look even remotely good SmartEco NEEDS to be engaged. On top of this, the SmartEco mode's dynamic dimming is actually easy to see in it's operation. I only witnessed the JVC's working once and I was sure to tell Calvin when I saw it.
Please if you're going to try and slander me by telling others I didn't do something right during setup and comparison, have the decency to do it here so I can respond. I'm not an idiot. I know how a projector should look and how it should be setup. It's a bit ironic that last time you said it wasn't a fair comparison because the projector wasn't calibrated, but now that I have it still wasn't setup correctly because I wasn't using your settings. Well, which is it? Should it be calibrated to the same standards that the JVC is calibrated to or am I supposed to use your settings? To me, it doesn't matter what settings you're using because none of them can fix the horrendous contrast performance this machine has. It should be noted that this machine performs LESS than most other DLP projectors in this area so criticism is completely appropriate.
To be clear the LK990 is not a "bad" projector. It just cannot compete with the current reflective-LCD projectors in overall image quality. That was extremely evident yesterday. Calvin put it best. If you have poor light control or a large screen, the LK990 could be a good fit. But for dedicated home theater, with modest screen sizes, I can't recommend it. There are so many better choices out there and I don't just mean JVC projectors. For those who like DLP, I'd recommend picking up a used Sim2 Lumis. You can get them for less than a new BenQ LK970/LK990. There are great tone mapping solutions out there and great downscalers that could be used with the Sim2. I think the overall experience, even with it being 1080p, would be dramatically better overall.
If your definition of slandering is telling the truth, so be it!
Why did you use a 2.3 gamma when my settings clearly call for 2.8?
Why not come to the other forum with your “facts”?.......oh yeah. :-\
I am done with you, Dylan. I used to have respect for you. Your knowledge is there, your ethics aren’t.
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If your definition of slandering is telling the truth, so be it!
Why did you use a 2.3 gamma when my settings clearly call for 2.8?
Why not come to the other forum with your “facts”?.......oh yeah. :-\
I am done with you, Dylan. I used to have respect for you. Your knowledge is there, your ethics aren’t.
We did use your 2.8 gamma. The 2.3 gamma was used when we watched tone mapped content after we were done using your settings.
How can it be telling the truth when you weren't actually there to see what we did? How can you know things weren't set up correctly? So yes, I do call it slander. We tried your settings verbatim and the projector was calibrated to the same standards as the JVC afterwards. Neither of these things changed the overall quality of the image enough to give the RS2000 serious competition.
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We did use your 2.8 gamma. The 2.3 gamma was used when we watched tone mapped content after we were done using your settings.
How can it be telling the truth when you weren't actually there to see what we did? How can you know things weren't set up correctly? So yes, I do call it slander. We tried your settings verbatim and the projector was calibrated to the same standards as the JVC afterwards. Neither of these things changed the overall quality of the image enough to give the RS2000 serious competition.
I don’t really care. Those that know, know. Enjoy your projectors Dylan.
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Thanks, Dave. Keep sharing those HarperVision settings. ;)
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Goodnight, Dave.
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Dave was right. I didn't use the gamma of 2.8, I used 2.6. I'm just remembering now. I couldn't use 2.8 because 2.6 is the highest gamma setting that the LK990 has. All other settings were the same as Dave's. Even so, we thought the image looked a bit cooked/contrasty with 2.6 and I think if it had a 2.8 setting it would have made it look a little more cooked. This was not the reason the image looked washed out. If it were that same issue wouldn't have been present after calibration when viewing SDR. It was the limited dynamic range having only 1000:1 native contrast brings.
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Dave was right. I didn't use the gamma of 2.8, I used 2.6. I'm just remembering now. I couldn't use 2.8 because 2.6 is the highest gamma setting that the LK990 has. All other settings were the same as Dave's. Even so, we thought the image looked a bit cooked/contrasty with 2.6 and I think if it had a 2.8 setting it would have made it look a little more cooked. This was not the reason the image looked washed out. If it were that same issue wouldn't have been present after calibration when viewing SDR. It was the limited dynamic range having only 1000:1 native contrast brings.
Even $100K DLP's we've seen in the past have the same problem. Nothing new to see here, unless you need a good sports projector. These would be perfect for a sports bar / open room commercial application, or maybe a church too. Since those aren't exactly bat caves. You would probably never see the lack of native contrast. But the brightness could be used in those settings.
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It's unfortunate that DLP has taken a step backwards in this area. It used to be king for contrast in the digital world.
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I spent the last several hours at Calvin's house. We plugged in Dave Harper's settings. Color was way off but they did subjectively improve the image's dynamic range over the stock HDR settings. I calibrated the LK990 after this. D65 greyscale was easy to calibrate but color proved more difficult. I was able to get it reasonably accurate, but not as accurate as the JVC. Someone on the other forum mentioned he had similar issues trying to calibrate citing the laser light source and/or the menu controls as the issue not providing linear color output/change. I'm sure with something like a lumagen you could calibrate to perfection, but with the built in controls it's difficult. Gamma was good. I chose the 2.3 gamma setting and it tracked very well. It didn't need any adjustment.
Contrast performance didn't improve. Overall, the image just looked washed out by comparison to the JVC with most content. Bright content looked excellent on the LK990 though. Input lag was measured in a 64.5ms. The RS2000 was 41.1ms without the low lag mode engaged.
FYI, low lag mode on the RS2000 doesn't really do anything other than disable CMD and grey it out. If you had clear motion drive off, then that's as low lag as the RS2000 gets. So your 41ms measurement was basically taken with low lag mode on. Enabling the log lag mode would not have resulted in lower lag in your case.
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FYI, low lag mode on the RS2000 doesn't really do anything other than disable CMD and grey it out. If you had clear motion drive off, then that's as low lag as the RS2000 gets. So your 41ms measurement was basically taken with low lag mode on. Enabling the log lag mode would not have resulted in lower lag in your case.
Yes, I'm aware of that. I should have explained more, but that's why I quoted input lag without the Input Lag Reduction mode enabled.
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Another perspective...
Rich from "Oz Theatre" Screens here in Aus...
Just for reference he has had "3" N7 /RS2000 s .. of the 3 two were faulty!
I took delivery of my new 990 today. This thing is off the wall!
Clarity like you've never seen! Like a giant OLED screen. Pixels far left, far right, top, bottom.. I counted them all too..
I've barely touched any settings at this early stage. Cinema mode. pulled the colour down, used a 2.6 gamma, that's it. Every other setting is out of the box.
Camera - galaxy S6 phone, about 4 or 5 years old from memory. no tripod, no calibration. The sky in the first image is not that saturated on screen, it's my crappy phone camera. So these images are not for evaluation like Woofer and Javs do, just more of a 'look at this' projector.
130" 16:9 screen (165" scope screen)
Anyone saying they dislike the image this thing throws is either blind or has some other problem. Seriously.
The lens shift is rock solid and the unit is very easy to focus and zoom to the right size. Changing for scope takes about 30 seconds, but that will get quicker. dials are above head height so a bit of stretch.
Can't wait to see where this can be taken with calibration. incredible projector.
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RE Above...
Some private correspondence with Rich...
He is "Astonished" at the "Clarity/Sharpness" of the LK990 ....best he has seen on ANY projector...and he has seen a few!
It has exceeded his expectations by a fair margin..
Matthew ( Javs) will have his LK990 sample on the 9th for a couple of weeks...then i get to play with it..:)
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Wish Javs had an RS2000 to compare it with side by side. Sharpness battle, is always going to be won by single chip DLP. At least in 6 days, we will be able to talk about something new in the DLP world. :)
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Woofer, I'm glad he likes it. The photos look nice. I witnessed the same thing with bright content like that.
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Wish Javs had an RS2000 to compare it with side by side. Sharpness battle, is always going to be won by single chip DLP. At least in 6 days, we will be able to talk about something new in the DLP world. :)
And which DLP projector is this?
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Another perspective...
Rich from "Oz Theatre" Screens here in Aus...
Just for reference he has had "3" N7 /RS2000 s .. of the 3 two were faulty!
I took delivery of my new 990 today. This thing is off the wall!
Clarity like you've never seen! Like a giant OLED screen. Pixels far left, far right, top, bottom.. I counted them all too..
I've barely touched any settings at this early stage. Cinema mode. pulled the colour down, used a 2.6 gamma, that's it. Every other setting is out of the box.
Camera - galaxy S6 phone, about 4 or 5 years old from memory. no tripod, no calibration. The sky in the first image is not that saturated on screen, it's my crappy phone camera. So these images are not for evaluation like Woofer and Javs do, just more of a 'look at this' projector.
130" 16:9 screen (165" scope screen)
Anyone saying they dislike the image this thing throws is either blind or has some other problem. Seriously.
The lens shift is rock solid and the unit is very easy to focus and zoom to the right size. Changing for scope takes about 30 seconds, but that will get quicker. dials are above head height so a bit of stretch.
Can't wait to see where this can be taken with calibration. incredible projector.
Those photos look totally overcooked to me. Like an HDTV on display at Best Buy. What does " Arrival " look like ? Content like that being shown is a cheat. Like using animation / cartoons for demo material - which should be illegal at Cedia. Bright video shot content looks good on anything - even a cheap $2K single chip DLP. Hell - even a $800.00 projector looks good with that content. Just like animation does. What do the darkest scenes on John Wick 1 and 2 look like ? That's where the rubber meets the road for me. Not travel videos. The opening scenes on John Wick 2 looked terrible on the single chip DLP Barco at Cedia, even though it was laser ( and $80K !! ). Show me screen shots from the first 5 minutes of John Wick 2, then we can talk.
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To be fair, he took those photos with an older cell phone camera. A lot of them cook the image. With bright content, the LK990 looks very good. But as you say any projector will look good with content like that.
I'm waiting for Javs to get his. He will provide excellent photos comparing it calibrated to other projectors. Good relative difference photos. I hope he can provide mixes APL comparison photos as well.
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To be fair, he took those photos with an older cell phone camera. A lot of them cook the image. With bright content, the LK990 looks very good. But as you say any projector will look good with content like that.
I'm waiting for Javs to get his. He will provide excellent photos comparing it calibrated to other projectors. Good relative difference photos. I hope he can provide mixes APL comparison photos as well.
The Optoma UHD60 I won at Cedia looked pretty good with bright content too. The low contrast and rainbows didn't cut it though.
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Those photos look totally overcooked to me. Like an HDTV on display at Best Buy. What does " Arrival " look like ? Content like that being shown is a cheat. Like using animation / cartoons for demo material - which should be illegal at Cedia. Bright video shot content looks good on anything - even a cheap $2K single chip DLP. Hell - even a $800.00 projector looks good with that content. Just like animation does. What do the darkest scenes on John Wick 1 and 2 look like ? That's where the rubber meets the road for me. Not travel videos. The opening scenes on John Wick 2 looked terrible on the single chip DLP Barco at Cedia, even though it was laser ( and $80K !! ). Show me screen shots from the first 5 minutes of John Wick 2, then we can talk.
Craig,
Please give the man some credit! He is not an amateur . He has been doing projection for many years .
From his correspondence he has looked at content other than "Bright" scenes and is surprised how well it fairs.
Just recently he had a SONY 760ES , he disliked it so much he passed it on very quickly...
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Craig,
Please give the man some credit! He is not an amateur . He has been doing projection for many years .
From his correspondence he has looked at content other than "Bright" scenes and is surprised how well it fairs.
Just recently he had a SONY 760ES , he disliked it so much he passed it on very quickly...
That's cool. But I too have 17 years of projector ownership. I'll just wait for Kris Deering and Arrow's review. Maybe dark scenes not looking good don't bother some people. That's fine. Just don't post the screen shots that wouldn't challenge any projector at all, as proof of anything. When I see Warren Miller ski video being used as demo material at Cedia, I roll my eyes.
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Another perspective...
Rich from "Oz Theatre" Screens here in Aus...
Just for reference he has had "3" N7 /RS2000 s .. of the 3 two were faulty!
I took delivery of my new 990 today. This thing is off the wall!
Clarity like you've never seen! Like a giant OLED screen. Pixels far left, far right, top, bottom.. I counted them all too..
I've barely touched any settings at this early stage. Cinema mode. pulled the colour down, used a 2.6 gamma, that's it. Every other setting is out of the box.
Camera - galaxy S6 phone, about 4 or 5 years old from memory. no tripod, no calibration. The sky in the first image is not that saturated on screen, it's my crappy phone camera. So these images are not for evaluation like Woofer and Javs do, just more of a 'look at this' projector.
130" 16:9 screen (165" scope screen)
Anyone saying they dislike the image this thing throws is either blind or has some other problem. Seriously.
The lens shift is rock solid and the unit is very easy to focus and zoom to the right size. Changing for scope takes about 30 seconds, but that will get quicker. dials are above head height so a bit of stretch.
Can't wait to see where this can be taken with calibration. incredible projector.
Do you have a link?
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To be fair, he took those photos with an older cell phone camera. A lot of them cook the image. With bright content, the LK990 looks very good. But as you say any projector will look good with content like that.
I'm waiting for Javs to get his. He will provide excellent photos comparing it calibrated to other projectors. Good relative difference photos. I hope he can provide mixes APL comparison photos as well.
I certainly plan to.
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I certainly plan to.
Javs,
I'm posting movie reviews on this site now...they are in the "Movie Review" area :) Great to see you here.
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Welcome, David!
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Dave, you really need to stop taking all of this so personally. They're only projectors. Some of us just don't agree with you. You aren't going to change our minds, especially those of us who've seen these BenQ laser projectors already.
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Looks like someone else will be doing the same comparison Calvin and I did this coming weekend. Audvid on the other forum posted:
First: I mean no disrespect to any of the forum members who seem to have high praise for this projector! So, please don't scold me. :)
I thought someone posted their projector settings? Was it Mike Garrett?
Can someone post a link to that please?
I just got this projector. I must say I am not impressed. I am no expert in video and I don't know enough technical details to explain but as a user, this projector is worth about the $5000 I paid for it.. probably less.
The picture is bright enough. I did reduce the brightness to about 30 to get some decent contrast.
They say it is sharp but I am using this projector as a computer monitor also (to type this message). I don't see it more sharp than my current Epson 4000.
Other than brightness, I don't see this projector as being that much superior to the Epson 4000. I got this as refurbished unit direct from BenQ and I intend to return it.
Lets not get into "its not calibrated" debate. :D. I have bought enough projectors over the past 25 years to know a good projector (or a bad one) when I see one! Yes, i have had many of my projectors calibrated and am familiar with the results, pre and post calibration. Frankly, I never saw "amazing improvement". Maybe because I am not such a sophisticated videophile.. but i do know what a good projector would look like and great projector - this is NOT! My prior projector was the $80,000 Wolf Cinema dcx 1000i (calibrated by one of the members here); subsequently, I found it to be inferior to the $1500 Epson 4000 and I gave the wolf away for free to a forum member! :D
I am going to be comparing this with a JVC NX7 this weekend. Other forum members are coming over to fine tune this projector and do a comparison. I have already decided to return this projector. I will not be buying any of these single chip dlp based projectors.. their native contrast is obviously not good enough for my own preferences/tastes.
I will probably get scolded by those who seem to be huge fans of these projectors. I have nothing against their preferences.. I am just saying that the contrast (and the "clarity/quality of lens"?) and the over all picture from this projector is unsuitable for MY personal tastes..
I bought this projector because another forum member suggested it. I asked him if he had seen it and he said he did not and he was going by the reviews here on the forum.
Those of you swayed by seemingly high praise of this projector - please be careful. Make sure you buy direct from benq so that you can return it, if you don't like it. I mean no disrespect to any of the forum members who seem to have high praise for this projector!
I am just writing this so that someone else won't waste their time on this, as did I.
I hope those that attend this home theater meetup post their impressions.
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Javs,
I'm posting movie reviews on this site now...they are in the "Movie Review" area :) Great to see you here.
Thanks David, I will be sure to check out your reviews!
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Had the LK990 at my house for a few weeks.
Really enjoyed and appreciated the picture it threw.
Ended up sending it back purely because of the amount of RBE that I personally experienced.
I had my brother come over and tested him to see if he saw the RBE or found it distracting, and he was only able to see it when I pointed out how to force it, or where to look for it. But for me it was enough to send it back.
Am trying out a HT9060 2 weeks from now, as I was really quite fond of the qualities of the 990 image in terms of crisp, bright, sharp. Am told the 9060 will throw a very similar image, and that with the 5x color wheel speed, RBE should be eliminated in my case. Even if it is reduced a bit, I should be more than happy with the 9060.
Also I should mention, that to me personally, the smart eco dimming on the 990 was not something that A. I found necessary for contrast/dark performance. B. Was more distracting than helpful in some scenes. In some scenes the brightness would switch back and forth, like a light switch as the perspective of the camera changed, which was infinitely more distracting than the lesser dark levels of the projector in Normal mode.
But I found Normal mode contrast/darkness levels to be more than acceptable, due to the other qualities of the image, which I greatly appreciated.
Will post my comparisons once I get back from vacation next tuesday or possibly the weekend after.
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RBE on the HT9060 should be reduced, not eliminated. It will resemble what a high quality single chip DLP unit with an 6x RGB/RGB color wheel can do. From what I've heard, with this new XPR technology and DMD, TI have locked the color flashing to 6x, even when you're using an LED light source.
The only single chip DLP units I've personally seen that eliminated it completely were the first generation .95" 1080p DC3/DC4 DMD LED projectors that used the Osram RAPCUR LED controller combined with the Phlatlight PT-120 LEDs. These projectors include the Runco Q750i, Sim2 Mico60, Vivitek H9080FD and the TruVue Vango. This combination allowed for an equivalent color wheel speed of 18x.
Have you had the opportunity to test out any Sony or JVC models in your theater? Near the street price of the HT9060, I'd recommend taking a look at the JVC DLA-RS1000. It should be close in lumens, resolution and color characteristics but with much better contrast performance over the BenQ. I've done my fair share of projector shootouts and home theater meetups between DLP and LCoS projectors over the last 10 years and there's never been a DLP unit that everyone preferred. If you haven't seen a JVC, you owe it to yourself to at least see one in your theater to see what all the fuss is about. If you can swing it, the RS2000 is a much better option with the increase in contrast and color saturation performance over the RS1000.
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RBE on the HT9060 should be reduced, not eliminated. It will resemble what a high quality single chip DLP unit with an 6x RGB/RGB color wheel can do. From what I've heard, with this new XPR technology and DMD, TI have locked the color flashing to 6x, even when you're using an LED light source.
The only single chip DLP units I've personally seen that eliminated it completely were the first generation .95" 1080p DC3/DC4 DMD LED projectors that used the Osram RAPCUR LED controller combined with the Phlatlight PT-120 LEDs. These projectors include the Runco Q750i, Sim2 Mico60, Vivitek H9080FD and the TruVue Vango. This combination allowed for an equivalent color wheel speed of 18x.
Have you had the opportunity to test out any Sony or JVC models in your theater? Near the street price of the HT9060, I'd recommend taking a look at the JVC DLA-RS1000. It should be close in lumens, resolution and color characteristics but with much better contrast performance over the BenQ. I've done my fair share of projector shootouts and home theater meetups between DLP and LCoS projectors over the last 10 years and there's never been a DLP unit that everyone preferred. If you haven't seen a JVC, you owe it to yourself to at least see one in your theater to see what all the fuss is about. If you can swing it, the RS2000 is a much better option with the increase in contrast and color saturation performance over the RS1000.
Interesting. I rarely saw RBE back in the day. On my Digital Projection dVision 1080p single chip DLP projector I never saw it. Either it's more pronounced now on these current faux 4K DLP chips, or my brain adapted to 3 chip and I can't go back. :-X
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Some people see it and others don't. On the LK990 it's much worse than most of the other single chip DLP units I've seen. This makes sense when you realize the LK990 isn't a home theater projector so an effort to reduce this artifact wasn't factored in to the design. It's also extremely bright which tends to exacerbate the issue.
The best single chip color wheel based projector I've personally seen was the Planar PD8150. Very, very little RBE. The Marantz single chip units were pretty good too.
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Is Woofer in this forum? Has he received the LK990 yet? If so I have some newer settings to try. They had to be totally redone because I updated the FW on the UB820, which added many traits from the UB9000 and totally changed the tone mapping.
BTW, those comments “over there” are absolute lies and rubbish! Kinda funny that now you can feel like you can post anything there no matter how much BS it is because now nobody is going to stand up and fight the misinformation and lies.
I answered every single one of the lying statements there previously yet the same offenders are still lying out their teeth when they know I’ve already covered it and replied and corrected them.
I’m going to come here and do a straight question and answer based on the false statements there. It’s unbelievable how much is wrong. But I guess with no checks and balances that’s just what that place has turned into.
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Is Woofer in this forum? Has he received the LK990 yet? If so I have some newer settings to try. They had to be totally redone because I updated the FW on the UB820, which added many traits from the UB9000 and totally changed the tone mapping.
BTW, those comments “over there” are absolute lies and rubbish! Kinda funny that now you can feel like you can post anything there no matter how much BS it is because now nobody is going to stand up and fight the misinformation and lies.
I answered every single one of the lying statements there previously yet the same offenders are still lying out their teeth when they know I’ve already covered it and replied and corrected them.
I’m going to come here and do a straight question and answer based on the false statements there. It’s unbelievable how much is wrong. But I guess with no checks and balances that’s just what that place has turned into.
How exciting! It should be HEAPS better than MadVR!!
(https://i.imgur.com/MKEpWUR.gif)
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How exciting! It should be HEAPS better than MadVR!!
(https://i.imgur.com/MKEpWUR.gif)
Since when is this a contest with MadVR? That explains it all actually. This is about what makes the LK work best, and HDR to SDR ain’t it. So who’s the one taking this all personally Javs?
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Since when is this a contest with MadVR? That explains it all actually. This is about what makes the LK work best, and HDR to SDR ain’t it. So who’s the one taking this all personally Javs?
Its not about MadVR, but Woofer uses it now exclusively.
Dylan was using it back when he looked at the LK, twice, and you said both times he did it wrong... I am curious why you think your way is THE way to make the LK work best?
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Since when is this a contest with MadVR? That explains it all actually. This is about what makes the LK work best, and HDR to SDR ain’t it. So who’s the one taking this all personally Javs?
With respect, you yourself kinda have made it a contest with MadVR by repeatedly stating that the best possible video performance is achieved only by using your settings. Where others are using MadVR to carry out the HDR processing because they consider that this delivers the best video performance. Other folks make use of a Lumagen PRO or a Panasonic Blu-Ray player similarly, although IMO these don't deliver as good performance as MadVR.
You even state that "HDR to SDR ain’t it" which makes me wonder whether you really understand how HDR actually works. The fact of the matter is that the resultant image that is displayed when using an external device to carry out the HDR processing, including tone-mapping, is in fact HDR not SDR. There is no downconverting to SDR. Wherein, the reason why you set the output that is fed to the projector to SDR BT2020 is because the HDR processing has already been carried out; so the projected image is in fact HDR.
And in fact there are very good scientific reasons why it is advantageous to carry out the HDR processing including tone-mapping earlier in the video chain, because this means that the video display device can be calibrated to flat 2.4 gamma and thereby circumvent any and all limitations with respect to whichever video display device regards calibrating HDR, which quite frankly is something nobody ideally should be having to do in the first place.
Please can you kindly explain the reasons why you believe your settings and feeding an HDR video signal to the projector achieves superior video performance as compared with using MadVR, a Lumagen PRO, or a Pansonic Blu-Ray player to carry out the HDR video processing? Wherein, it should be noted that both MadVR and Lumagen PRO carry out frame-by-frame tone-mapping with HDR10 content akin to Dolby Vision, thereby fixing all the issues and problems associated with HDR10 encoded media. So why are your settings and method, which is restricted to using static metadata (which is sometimes corrupt, broken, or missing) and requires calibrating the projector for HDR, better exactly? :-\
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Dave, if you want to continue discussing this here, watch who you're calling a liar. You aren't going to get away with the ad hominem attacks here like you did on the other forum so keep the discussion civil. I think it's fair to say that Mike and Craig have been especially patient with your shenanigans as it is.
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Its not about MadVR, but Woofer uses it now exclusively.
Dylan was using it back when he looked at the LK, twice, and you said both times he did it wrong... I am curious why you think your way is THE way to make the LK work best?
Between my quick-cal and using madVR (or even the tonemapping on the UB820) made a noticeable positive difference in image quality over the settings Dave recommended us to use at the time. Both of us in the room agreed. The image just looked more natural. We both thought Dave's settings gave the image a far too vibrant and overcooked appearance. Some may prefer this look, but these settings rendered the image far from how it was mastered. With madVR, even though were tone mapping, due to the mathematical nature of how the software works, we're at least trying to mitigate as many deficiencies as possible as we change the pixel information. I didn't get this sense when using Dave's settings because of how different the image appeared. Dave's settings appear to try and recreate what an average Joe consumer might assume HDR is supposed to look like, vibrant and overly contrasty. Maybe his new settings lessen this effect? As an example of what we were seeing, Kris's photos here show it off pretty well:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/3049764-benq-ht9060-lk990-depth-reviews-comparison-thread-32.html#post58098746
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Dave's settings cannot in any way shape or form come close to giving you the same performance as a Panasonic, Lumagen or MadVR. Let's look at this from the most basic imaging science approach:
Dave is using nothing but the projector settings. For the BenQ 970 (I haven't seen the 990, but I imagine it is similar) you can set the gamma to a power law, in which he choses 2.8, but that is ALL you can do. There is no parametric setting to adjust gamma along the luminance levels. If he is trying to do a PQ calibration (which he stated before he is) then that gamma curve would look like an S curve, which you are not going to get. He is most likely trying to emulate this with the contrast/brightness controls, but that is going to kill the white and black point, which is what these controls are for. With any of the other solutions the S-Curve is not only taken care of in the source device, it is changed on a title by title or frame by frame basis.
Then there is color. He wants to feed 2020 color in, but these are projectors that can't even do full 709. So anything beyond what the projector is capable of is clipped and layered on top of itself. You also have to do major adjustments of color/tint to realign the gamut to what 2020 is, which completely kills your linearity even inside the gamut you can do. This causes clear issues with greens, reds and yellows. By converting the matrix to 2020 you lose NOTHING in terms of what you would have had before, but you are accurately taking the 2020 container and mapping it to the display's gamut potential. This would nearly eliminate clipping (you're still not getting the full 709 gamut) and improve linearity inside your gamut.
The thing that is so frustrating about Dave's argument is that it is like he doesn't even understand his own argument. He is trying to do the exact same things these devices will already do (create a tone map and remap color), but they will do it far better. And this is just for the HDR side of things. We are not even talking about the limitations of contrast and its effects.
I'm not going to get in to all the other arguments about people using or not using the settings properly and all that other nonsense. Reading that thread through speaks volumes enough. If you couple the 970 with an outboard device you can get a decent HDR image out of it. It is extremely bright and very sharp, and would be a good fit for someone looking for those qualities in a solid state device for their room on a budget. The 9060 gives you better color coverage and nearly eliminates RBE completely, but it has issues with HDR tone mapping and creates a difficult proposition for using an outboard device to do the tone mapping for you. For SDR I like the 9060 better than the 970, but it isn't nearly as bright so that may be an issue depending on your room needs. Again, I haven't seen a 990.
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Its not about MadVR, but Woofer uses it now exclusively.
Dylan was using it back when he looked at the LK, twice, and you said both times he did it wrong... I am curious why you think your way is THE way to make the LK work best?
As I’ve said countless times on AVSF, it’s not about the merits of MadVR, Lumagen, et al. It’s about the shortcomings of the LKs that you yourself, myself and others like Kris and Dylan have pointed out.
On the LK970, the shortcoming is it doesn’t do HDR BT2020/P3 natively, so you first have to resort to extreme measures to realign the incoming native HDR signal to display properly (as Kris alludes to in his reply above). Then once it’s really close you then do an HDR PQ calibration to get it as right and close to spec as possible. (Mainly CMS and greyscale). If it looks too blown out and overcooked as some mentioned, and as I have seen before also, then you can easily back down some of the settings like contrast and color and dial it in to spec and/or as you like. That seems to be the step everyone is missing here on the LK970. Everyone just throws in my base settings and looks at it in their system and then thinks that’s the way it is in its final version, but nothing could be further from the truth. I have always said that those settings are only a baseline to start with so the HDR signal appears semi-normal, just as if you sent native HDR into an HDR projector for the first time that does support it natively. And then of course what you would do in that case is start a calibration process, which is what I am saying to do in this case as well after inputting my base settings to prepare the LK970 to receive a native HDR input. You all know how much better it can look once the calibration is done on any display, and that is all I am saying to do here and what seems to have been missed and not done by those who’ve tried. You also have to go back and forth over and over again, literally changing one or two clicks on settings and you can see it slowly starting to snap into place and wow you, getting rid of the have and milky greys that have been reported and that I’ve also seen myself many times, but had to keep working it to alleviate it. It takes many hours of patience initially but you get the hang of changing what setting does to what you see and measure, so it becomes easier the more times you do it. All I was ever saying was what was reported was wrong and if you keep at it then it will be eventually rectified. Too many gave up too early and then said it couldn’t be done, when in fact it could and has been by me and others.
On the LK990, it is because as we all agree the stock HDR mode, tone map and curves aren’t ideal, especially when combined with the issues of it color shifting with dynamic dimming and with brilliant color on. The big fact of why I use HDR mode though is exactly as Javs and I and everyone has pointed out, that you are locked into the HDR PQ gamma curve and you can’t change picture modes and you can’t get BT2020 color when using an SDR mode. These are all shortcomings of the LK990 projector, not anything to do with madVR or a Lumagen or any other external tone mapping source, so this is why I say this has nothing to do with comparing the virtues of each, which you all are apparently stuck on. I am sure if MadVR was (or could be?) set to output HDR while only performing dynamic per scene tone mapping of luminance only instead of also mapping HDR to SDR, that it would be superior to what I do with the UB820 only. I have asked Javs this many times. This is NOT in dispute, so let’s please drop that argument.
The difference between what I am doing and you are doing is that I choose to stay in HDR mode and not tone map HDR to SDR so I can take advantage of the BT2020 color and the parameters engineered into the LK990 for its PQ gamma curve and then work with it and tailor it to work as properly as possible, which is very similar to how everyone used to do it with other custom gamma curves that were better than what the stock gamma curve/mode gave you, like gamma D on the earlier JVC projectors. Same concept here.
I know what you are all saying and I totally agree with the fact that dynamic per scene dimming is best, but as I have already stated many times over and over again, the solution I am talking about now is simply for people who do not want to or have the inclination to either build a home theater PC with madVR or don’t have the funds to buy an expensive Lumagen Radiance Pro. I have also said numerous times that when combined with the SmartEco dynamic dimming of the projector along with the per disc dynamic dimming of the UB820, in combination, this does effectively almost the same thing.
Here is a simple question:
Are the SDR and HDR modes and their associated firmware in HDR capable displays engineered differently in how they respond and react to each given signal that’s expected when each mode is chosen for a particular use case when receiving each’s expected signal when chosen? In the LKs’ case, this would be its SmartEco dimming and gamma manipulation, Brilliant Color, gamma mode, dynamic range, Automatic Power Control dimming, Color and phosphor wheel reaction, Full shutoff of laser, etc.
If the answer is yes, then that’s my answer to you all in why I choose to use HDR signals into the LKs (customized to be optimal) and not send HDR tone mapped to SDR. The SDR mode and how it was designed and engineered for the LKs is inferior and reacts quite differently (its dimming, Brilliant Color, gamma manipulation in SmartEco, color gamut, gamma curves used, etc.) than what was designed and engineered for the HDR mode. Plain as that. I have found through many hours of testing that I can get a better image when manipulating HDR on these than I can trying to do the same manipulation while in an SDR mode on the LKs. I have on many occasions tried setting it to HDR to SDR Tone mapping and never ever was able to get out of these in that mode what I could while maintaining an HDR input signal.
As you can hopefully see now, this is not a slight or diss on madVR, Lumagen or even the UB820/9000. This is about the shortcomings of the LKs, plain and simple, so we need to move past this thought process that is clearly shown here that I am somehow dissing those solutions when I am not. I am actually dissing the LK990 and LK970 for not doing that part properly, which is what predicates and causes my use of those crazy settings. The whole reason I feel it is well worth it in the end is because when you do go through the trouble to get it just right, the image is absolutely stunning and I stick by that 100%!
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On the LK970, the shortcoming is it doesn’t do HDR BT2020/P3 natively, so you first have to resort to extreme measures to realign the incoming native HDR signal to display properly (as Kris alludes to in his reply above). Then once it’s really close you then do an HDR PQ calibration to get it as right and close to spec as possible. (Mainly CMS and greyscale). If it looks too blown out and overcooked as some mentioned, and as I have seen before also, then you can easily back down some of the settings like contrast and color and dial it in to spec and/or as you like. That seems to be the step everyone is missing here on the LK970. Everyone just throws in my base settings and looks at it in their system and then thinks that’s the way it is in its final version, but nothing could be further from the truth. I have always said that those settings are only a baseline to start with so the HDR signal appears semi-normal, just as if you sent native HDR into an HDR projector for the first time that does support it natively. And then of course what you would do in that case is start a calibration process, which is what I am saying to do in this case as well after inputting my base settings to prepare the LK970 to receive a native HDR input. You all know how much better it can look once the calibration is done on any display, and that is all I am saying to do here and what seems to have been missed and not done by those who’ve tried. You also have to go back and forth over and over again, literally changing one or two clicks on settings and you can see it slowly starting to snap into place and wow you, getting rid of the have and milky greys that have been reported and that I’ve also seen myself many times, but had to keep working it to alleviate it. It takes many hours of patience initially but you get the hang of changing what setting does to what you see and measure, so it becomes easier the more times you do it. All I was ever saying was what was reported was wrong and if you keep at it then it will be eventually rectified. Too many gave up too early and then said it couldn’t be done, when in fact it could and has been by me and others.
There is no PQ standard for projectors. If you calibrate to PQ, you can only calibrate to ONE MaxCLL and hope that covers everything, which it does not. When I asked about getting your settings from you the very first time, after you asked if I'd try them, the very next post from me was asking specifically if you had a calibration target that was associated with those settings. You never responded. You didn't start attacking the calibration stuff until after I just went ahead and tried the settings (which someone else provided) and showed that the results didn't look good. I even explained in the post the reason they wouldn't look good. Changing the contrast setting is only changing the white point and ruining the weak contrast performance even more. And if people can afford to buy a LK970 (which is all I'm referring to, because that is all I've tested) buying something like the Panasonic 820 should not be a stretch. They are going to have to buy a HD Fury box using your settings anyways, so may as well just put that money toward a Panasonic instead and get rid of the "tweaking" that would be required for every title since you're developing a single tone map anyways. What you are trying to achieve and what Panasonic is actually doing are the same thing, they are just doing it within actual standards so they don't have to hunt and peck for some setting that may make the image look right if you're lucky, and then have to start again with the next title. Adjusting color/tint/contrast/brightness on a title by title basis should be the LAST thing you should have to do based on what those settings actually do.
The biggest issue I had with you Dave is your insistence on laying blame on all others but yourself when it came to evaluating these projectors. I got the 970 and asked specifically for your settings. You said you would get them. Then you didn't. Then someone else found some that you had posted before and you said those should work but that you may have newer ones, which you didn't provide. I asked about calibration and you didn't respond. Then later you backtracked all this and said I didn't calibrate, which I asked you about, and that those settings weren't right, but didn't provide the ones that supposedly were. Then you said you've posted settings a bunch of times, then you email Mike and say that your settings were only in some email. Every single time there is another excuse and what amounts to lies about what you have or have not posted. But in all those endless amounts of posts you never thought to just clear the air and ACTUALLY POST THE SETTINGS YOU THINK SHOULD BE USED. It took endless arguing to even get your calibration target out, and I chimed right in and said why calibrating to PQ makes zero sense in this case. Plus you can't adjust gamma on these projectors anyway, as I mentioned in the post above.
Ultimately it doesn't matter now on my end. The LK970 is gone and I have zero desire to see a 990. DLP as a technology has to make some major advancements to get my personal interest and these projectors need to work out their massive shortcomings before I'm inclined to look at them again.
Here is a simple question:
Are the SDR and HDR modes and their associated firmware in HDR capable displays engineered differently in how they respond and react to each given signal that’s expected when each mode is chosen for a particular use case when receiving each’s expected signal when chosen? In the LKs’ case, this would be its SmartEco dimming and gamma manipulation, Brilliant Color, gamma mode, dynamic range, Automatic Power Control dimming, Color and phosphor wheel reaction, Full shutoff of laser, etc.
They are not unless you are feeding in a signal that locks out certain controls. So if you are outputting SDR2020 or SDR709, you should have full access to the other settings. This is not the case with the 9060, but it worked fine with the 970.
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With respect, you yourself kinda have made it a contest with MadVR by repeatedly stating that the best possible video performance is achieved only by using your settings. Where others are using MadVR to carry out the HDR processing because they consider that this delivers the best video performance. Other folks make use of a Lumagen PRO or a Panasonic Blu-Ray player similarly, although IMO these don't deliver as good performance as MadVR.
You even state that "HDR to SDR ain’t it" which makes me wonder whether you really understand how HDR actually works. The fact of the matter is that the resultant image that is displayed when using an external device to carry out the HDR processing, including tone-mapping, is in fact HDR not SDR. There is no downconverting to SDR. Wherein, the reason why you set the output that is fed to the projector to SDR BT2020 is because the HDR processing has already been carried out; so the projected image is in fact HDR.
And in fact there are very good scientific reasons why it is advantageous to carry out the HDR processing including tone-mapping earlier in the video chain, because this means that the video display device can be calibrated to flat 2.4 gamma and thereby circumvent any and all limitations with respect to whichever video display device regards calibrating HDR, which quite frankly is something nobody ideally should be having to do in the first place.
Please can you kindly explain the reasons why you believe your settings and feeding an HDR video signal to the projector achieves superior video performance as compared with using MadVR, a Lumagen PRO, or a Pansonic Blu-Ray player to carry out the HDR video processing? Wherein, it should be noted that both MadVR and Lumagen PRO carry out frame-by-frame tone-mapping with HDR10 content akin to Dolby Vision, thereby fixing all the issues and problems associated with HDR10 encoded media. So why are your settings and method, which is restricted to using static metadata (which is sometimes corrupt, broken, or missing) and requires calibrating the projector for HDR, better exactly? :-\
See my reply to Javs for a more detailed response.
Believe me, I know what “HDR” is. You guys wonder why I get so upset and take it personal when you say such demeaning things as that to me, like I don’t even know the basics of all this. I mean come on really? Can we just get past that please? Ask me real questions without demeaning me, my abilities and my knowledge and maybe we would get somewhere.
As I said in the previous reply, it’s not about MadVR, Lumagen etc. it’s about the LK990’s inabilities and not being able to do SDR BT2020 amongst other things. I’ve noticed in several attempts that to get the best image from the LK990 with its limitations is to send it HDR BT2020 and then tweak the signal from there so you can maintain the BT2020 color space and overall better gamma and image performance.
I am using a Panasonic UB820, and have stated such numerous times and the reasons why for this. I also have a Lumagen Radiance Pro and recently got a Panamorph Paladin.
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Dave's settings cannot in any way shape or form come close to giving you the same performance as a Panasonic, Lumagen or MadVR. Let's look at this from the most basic imaging science approach:
Dave is using nothing but the projector settings. For the BenQ 970 (I haven't seen the 990, but I imagine it is similar) you can set the gamma to a power law, in which he choses 2.8, but that is ALL you can do. There is no parametric setting to adjust gamma along the luminance levels. If he is trying to do a PQ calibration (which he stated before he is) then that gamma curve would look like an S curve, which you are not going to get. He is most likely trying to emulate this with the contrast/brightness controls, but that is going to kill the white and black point, which is what these controls are for. With any of the other solutions the S-Curve is not only taken care of in the source device, it is changed on a title by title or frame by frame basis.
Then there is color. He wants to feed 2020 color in, but these are projectors that can't even do full 709. So anything beyond what the projector is capable of is clipped and layered on top of itself. You also have to do major adjustments of color/tint to realign the gamut to what 2020 is, which completely kills your linearity even inside the gamut you can do. This causes clear issues with greens, reds and yellows. By converting the matrix to 2020 you lose NOTHING in terms of what you would have had before, but you are accurately taking the 2020 container and mapping it to the display's gamut potential. This would nearly eliminate clipping (you're still not getting the full 709 gamut) and improve linearity inside your gamut.
The thing that is so frustrating about Dave's argument is that it is like he doesn't even understand his own argument. He is trying to do the exact same things these devices will already do (create a tone map and remap color), but they will do it far better. And this is just for the HDR side of things. We are not even talking about the limitations of contrast and its effects.
I'm not going to get in to all the other arguments about people using or not using the settings properly and all that other nonsense. Reading that thread through speaks volumes enough. If you couple the 970 with an outboard device you can get a decent HDR image out of it. It is extremely bright and very sharp, and would be a good fit for someone looking for those qualities in a solid state device for their room on a budget. The 9060 gives you better color coverage and nearly eliminates RBE completely, but it has issues with HDR tone mapping and creates a difficult proposition for using an outboard device to do the tone mapping for you. For SDR I like the 9060 better than the 970, but it isn't nearly as bright so that may be an issue depending on your room needs. Again, I haven't seen a 990.
I am not just using the projector. I am using the UB820 for these particular settings.
I am able to emulate the PQ curve pretty well actually, and not just using the contrast. In fact that’s the last thing I adjust. I am not clipping whites or crushing blacks either. The spectral highlights look incredible with no blowouts. This is one of the big pluses actually, especially since this has so much brightness headroom. If you were blowing out highlights and whites and had crushed blacks or hazy blacks, then yes, it was set wrong.
I got wider than Rec709 color and posted the gamut and it was also corroborrated and verified by 12GAGE, tnaik4 and others. It also tracked the BT2020/P3 sweeps nicely until it naturally gave out. Nothing was “layered on top of each other” and linearity was fine. Not sure why you’re stating this? By doing so you’re clearly showing that you indeed didn’t have it set right and didn’t do a calibration.
The only one not understanding my argument is you and the others, which is clearly evident by the things you’re saying and deducing, which are 100% wrong in this case.
If it is such nonsense then why can “clowns” like me get it right?
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Well, Dave, we can only use the settings you tell us to use. So if Kris set it wrong, so did you. The LK990 I played around with could not do more than REC709 and this was measured with and without your settings. So I don't know how you guys were achieving these results. Can you point me to posts that show gamut coverage results from 12GAGE, tnaik4 and others?
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Well, Dave, we can only use the settings you tell us to use. So if Kris set it wrong, so did you. The LK990 I played around with could not do more than REC709 and this was measured with and without your settings. So I don't know how you guys were achieving these results. Can you point me to posts that show gamut coverage results from 12GAGE, tnaik4 and others?
We are talking about the LK970 not the 990 where Kris is concerned. That’s all he’s had and seen so far.
The settings on the LK970, as stated multiple times, are just base settings to get in the ballpark to make the native HDR image appear correct initially, as if the LK970 supported HDR, which it doesn’t natively. Once they’re input then you need to do a calibration to bring it completely in line as you would any other HDR native display. I even stated in that post that those settings weren’t measured (calibrated) yet.
You know as well as as I do that a calibration has to take into account the entire system and room so of course my exact settings from here won’t translate perfectly over. Kris should know this too, so not sure why you're even saying that.
I will try to find tnaik4’s nice gamut that he got from lightspace.
I know for a fact I didn’t have any final settings for the LK990 when you had one. In fact I don’t think I even had one yet actually. Plus they’re way too different for my LK970 settings to translate over to anyway and I know that now that I have had an LK990 here for awhile. They’re totally different.
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Dave, you realize you ALWAYS have some sort of excuse, right?
What is the point in you giving us your settings if you need to do an additional calibration? Why not just tell us what we should be targeting for calibration instead? You could tell us that, then we could provide calibration results showing you that we achieved your targets and then we can tell you what we think of the image. Wouldn't that make more sense?
It just seems you do it your way on purpose so you always have an excuse when we aren't agreeing/seeing the same thing you're seeing.
Yes, please provide the MULTIPLE graphs showing >REC709 coverage that you claim corroborate your findings. The only thing I could find is this... which I wouldn't call a meaningful measurement in your favor:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2917348-benq-lk970-4k-dlp-laser-12-999k-msrp-44.html#post57772038
You can click on the quoted post to see his original image. Which clearly shows he isn't hitting more than REC709...Yes there are points outside of the triangle he measured but there is a whole section of REC709 that can't be hit. For you, or anyone, to claim >REC709 coverage, it absolutely needs to cover the entirety of REC709 and then some.
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Dave, you realize you ALWAYS have some sort of excuse, right?
What is the point in you giving us your settings if you need to do an additional calibration? Why not just tell us what we should be targeting for calibration instead? You could tell us that, then we could provide calibration results showing you that we achieved your targets and then we can tell you what we think of the image. Wouldn't that make more sense?
It just seems you do it your way on purpose so you always have an excuse why we aren't agreeing/seeing the same thing you're seeing.
Yes, please provide the MULTIPLE graphs showing >REC709 coverage that you claim corroborate your findings. The only thing I could find is this... which I wouldn't call a meaningful measurement in your favor:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2917348-benq-lk970-4k-dlp-laser-12-999k-msrp-44.html#post57772038
You can click on the quoted post to see his original image. Which clearly shows he isn't hitting more than REC709...Yes there are points outside of the triangle he measured but there is a whole section of REC709 that can't be hit.
Come on man, really? It is not excuses it is me having to repeat myself over and over again just as I am doing again now because you apparently didn’t read what I wrote when I said that the LK970 does not do HDR natively so my extreme settings are only put in there to get it to display the HDR image properly on the LK970 because it doesn’t take in that signal natively! If you don’t do that, the image is super washed out and colors are bland and dim. Have you ever input a full HDR signal into an SDR input/mode? That is what it looks like at first unless you input my settings to make it appear as if it would when inputting into a native HDR display and its HDR Input/Mode. What part of that is so hard to understand?
The fact that you cannot understand what I am saying over and over and over again means that you of course haven’t done it properly when you or anyone else did try it because if they did understand that they would be able to do it as others have done, just as I have.
I don’t know what to say anymore honestly. How else can I possibly even explain this? It’s just fruitless with some people I guess.
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Dave, it doesn't matter whether or not a display accepts an HDR image because what you're doing can be done on any display that has a decent set of image controls. Trust me when I say, those of us who've argued with you on this topic know exactly what you're trying to accomplish. It has nothing to do with us misunderstanding you. Manipulating gamma like you're trying to do on these BenQ models isn't anything new. We did just that with the older JVC models. We've all been through this before.
So now that we have that out of the way, can you please provide some actual data to back your claims up or are we just going to argue over the semantics of us understanding one another?
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Dave, it doesn't matter whether or not a display accepts an HDR image because what you're doing can be done on any display that has a decent set of image controls. Trust me when I say, those of us who've argued with you on this topic know exactly what you're trying to accomplish. It has nothing to do with us misunderstanding you. Manipulating gamma like you're trying to do on these BenQ models isn't anything new. We did just that with the older JVC models. We've all been through this before.
So now that we have that out of the way, can you please provide some actual data to back your claims up or are we just going to argue over the semantics of us understanding one another?
Yes, I know that Dylan. That’s why I’m the one saying they’re not “magic settings”, but everyone is making it out like this is some huge mystical deal. :-\
If you understood, then why would you post this?:
What is the point in you giving us your settings if you need to do an additional calibration? Why not just tell us what we should be targeting for calibration instead? You could tell us that, then we could provide calibration results showing you that we achieved your targets and then we can tell you what we think of the image. Wouldn't that make more sense?
It’s NOT a calibration Dylan, I’ve said this a million times! They’re just base settings to get you started so the HDR image coming into the non-HDR projector is much closer to looking correct!
It’s not just gamma manipulation either. You have to adjust much more than just gamma when you input an HDR signal into an input that’s expecting and can only support SDR.
What older JVCs are you talking about? The initial HDR capable ones with gamma D or older than that? I know about the gamma D ones and did that myself too. I had the RS600. That’s when I started doing this type of thing, with the Epson LS10000 and 5040UB when it’s HDR was super dim. I know it’s nothing new, but what I don’t understand is all the pushback? Who cares if I do this? It doesn’t hurt you or anyone else that doesn’t want to do it in the least. The difference was, those JVCs supported HDR. The LK970 doesn’t, so the projector’s reaction is very different. You have to force it to accept HDR first, then apply the extreme settings that I share, THEN calibrate.
If you and everyone really knew what I was doing and what I’m saying, then there wouldn’t have been this much confusion and confrontation and accusations that I’m “just a clown”.
Now that that’s out of the way, maybe you all can start asking real questions and listening and trying things openly without demeaning me for something that’s clearly misunderstood, whether you or anyone says it is or not.
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The 970 nor 990 can't do DCI P3 within the BT2020 container. So you are having to remap to what it can do, which is a little less than Rec709. So you need a good method to remap BT2020 to Rec709. So it looks to me your choices are settings that you would have to constantly tweak per title or use an outboard source, like the Panasonic, MadVR or Lumagen.
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Guys, this is not going to go anywhere. It is absolutely 100% clear that Dave is going to do everything he can to avoid having to do anything that would either allow you to accurately try and emulate what he has done or provide anything that backs up any of his claims other than him arguing. Any of the people here that would be interested in doing any of this are more than aware of how to calibrate a projector for HDR and would gladly provide clear evidence of not only the measurements and settings they used, but image showing the end result. Dave has provided nothing but pushback and excuses. Just walk away, I think he's shown more than ever it just isn't worth it.
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The 970 nor 990 can't do DCI P3 within the BT2020 container. So you are having to remap to what it can do, which is a little less than Rec709. So you need a good method to remap BT2020 to Rec709. So it looks to me your choices are settings that you would have to constantly tweak per title or use an outboard source, like the Panasonic, MadVR or Lumagen.
The LK990 does indeed remap to both P3 and BT2020. Even with the LK970, once you set the proper CMS for it to map, you don’t have to do it per title, so I’m not sure what you’re meaning by that?
Again, this is using a Panasonic UB820. I just use it in HDR and don’t tone map to SDR. The Optimizer is available and is being used.
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Guys, this is not going to go anywhere. It is absolutely 100% clear that Dave is going to do everything he can to avoid having to do anything that would either allow you to accurately try and emulate what he has done or provide anything that backs up any of his claims other than him arguing. Any of the people here that would be interested in doing any of this are more than aware of how to calibrate a projector for HDR and would gladly provide clear evidence of not only the measurements and settings they used, but image showing the end result. Dave has provided nothing but pushback and excuses. Just walk away, I think he's shown more than ever it just isn't worth it.
Was this something beyond your expertise Kris? You got some of my base settings, so all you had to do from there was calibrate (which it appears you know how to do) and then post your own charts and numbers that you got. You chose not to do the last parts including calibration. What stopped you from calibrating and posting your own numbers from it? Agenda? Bias? It appears to me the deck was already stacked against it before you ever even started and got the LK970. The outcome certainly seems predetermined to me since you didn’t do these things, apparently intentionally.
Is the above that hard Kris? Please show me pushback and excuses, other than my lack of time and the availability of the numbers I did this for on a server I no longer have access to. But I’ve posted those base settings freely in the LK970 thread and also said that it needs a follow on calibration in your personal system and room. I’ve said these things from the very beginning. I can post my numbers all day long but how does that affect you and everyone else from also measuring and contrasting them? Isn’t that what you should do, regardless of whether I posted something or not? But of course nobody did that, did they? All they did was their own thing and tone mapped HDR to SDR (not optimal on these units) with a Lumagen or MadVR and when they actually did try mine, they only went half way and gave up when their predetermined outcome was seen.
I guess you just don't have the right sense of humor to understand this clown, right Kris?
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I think Kris explained his theory pretty well already. He mentioned that you can get far better results if you just calibrate to D65/REC709 (or as close as these units will allow) with a normal 2.2/2.4 gamma and use a quality tone mapper to convert HDR to SDR. The Lumagen Radiance Pro, madVR, UB820 or UB9000 all seem like better candidates. As I said before, we got far better subjective results going down this route instead when I demo'ed the LK990. I do the same thing with my JVC projector too. I rarely let it do the tone mapping conversion as madVR (and the UB9000 I'm currently reviewing) does a noticeably better job. Kris even provided photos showing this.
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I think Kris explained his theory pretty well already. He mentioned that you can get far better results if you just calibrate to D65/REC709 (or as close as these units will allow) with a normal 2.2/2.4 gamma and use a quality tone mapper to convert HDR to SDR. The Lumagen Radiance Pro, madVR, UB820 or UB9000 all seem like better candidates. As I said before, we got far better subjective results going down this route instead when I demo'ed the LK990. I do the same thing with my JVC projector too. I rarely let it do the tone mapping conversion as madVR (and the UB9000 I'm currently reviewing) does a noticeably better job. Kris even provided photos showing this.
Well as of right now I wholeheartedly disagree that tone mapping from HDR to SDR is best for these particular units, and I’ve had and experimented with them both for much, much longer than anyone who says otherwise.
What you also keep failing to understand is that I AM using a Panasonic UB820 and its Optimizer feature, so it IS Tone mapping the luminance portion. It’s just not mapping HDR to SDR, which is where these units fall short.
Kris provided uncalibrated pictures BTW. I bet his JVC was calibrated though, right?
If you'd rather believe someone with far less experience on these particular models, then so be it. It doesn’t change the fact that approach is wrong with these models, whether you or anyone else says otherwise.
I wouldn’t challenge everyone’s findings on the JVCs who have had extensive time with on those models, so I don’t see why the same respect isn’t afforded to me with these LKs. Probably because I’m just a clown, because I don’t fall into lock step with the mass heard who can’t think outside the box.
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Kris didn't provide photos comparing it against a JVC. He provided photos of the settings you suggested (both on the LK970 and UB820) against using straight up tone mapping with the unit set to SDR standards. The photos speak for themselves. I linked to them several posts ago.
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Kris didn't provide photos comparing it against a JVC. He provided photos of the settings you suggested (both on the LK970 and UB820) against using straight up tone mapping with the unit set to SDR standards. The photos speak for themselves. I linked to them several posts ago.
Regardless, it still wasn’t calibrated.
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Regardless, it still wasn’t calibrated.
The image was still "in the ballpark" as you've said many times if people use your settings. I don't see how making a few small changes to the image from your settings would drastically change the performance of the projector. And if you claim otherwise, I'll ask again, what is the point in using your settings at all if they don't get 95%+ of the way there?
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The image was still "in the ballpark" as you've said many times if people use your settings. I don't see how making a few small changes to the image from your settings would drastically change the performance of the projector. And if you claim otherwise, I'll ask again, what is the point in using your settings at all if they don't get 95%+ of the way there?
You say you understand what I’m doing with these, then you make a post like that clearly showing you don’t. I’ve explained time and time again what the point of inputting these are, and it isn’t as a calibration.
You can actually do this yourself on your JVC or whatever Projector you use, you know. Just force HDR into an SDR input/mode. Once you see the resultant image you’ll see why such extreme settings are initially needed to make it look like some semblance of a normal HDR BT2020/P3 image.
Let’s just leave it at that then. I need to get back to the circus anyway.
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You say you understand what I’m doing with these, then you make a post like that clearly showing you don’t. I’ve explained time and time again what the point of inputting these are, and it isn’t as a calibration.
You can actually do this yourself on your JVC or whatever Projector you use, you know. Just force HDR into an SDR input/mode. Once you see the resultant image you’ll see why such extreme settings are initially needed to make it look like some semblance of a normal HDR BT2020/P3 image.
Let’s just leave it at that then. I need to get back to the circus anyway.
Really this is getting tedious but let's try again.
I got the LK970 to look at after hearing you cry to the heavens about how great it was. I made my initial impressions on the unit, which didn't end up being a surprise and gave it credit for its strengths and mentioned its weaknesses. You then asked if I was planning on trying your settings to which I responded YES and please provide. The VERY next post I made asked if you had a calibration target you used with those settings. From there on you NEVER (and to this day still have never) provided ANY settings to try. Mike eventually pointing me to a post that someone found with some settings in it, and since I never heard anything from you (at least useful) I used those but asked AGAIN about calibration targets (of course these settings were not the ones you wanted me to use, but you never provide those, but then said you posted settings all the time, then said the settings were buried in some emails and on and on and on and on). Of course none of this was ever provided until after I got tired of waiting to hopefully do your settings some justice and posted my results and talked about why I didn't understand your approach after just doing it a different way that makes FAR MORE sense regardless of how you feel about it. Maybe it is my much better understanding of image science and calibration, because the more you post and talk in circles, the more I am pretty sure that is what it is. There is a reason that EVERY video processing solution out there goes about this in a certain way. But they probably don't know as much about this as you either I guess?? And you wonder why I called you a name.
If I were to actually try and calibrate to some standard with your settings the BEST I could hope to achieve would be to match what I could already get with the method I used. Mapping a 2020 color source to a 709 projector and tone mapping to give the best results for the amount of light I had. But because YOU don't seem to understand this, you persist with your BS story (and endless amount of comments about providing settings and saying to calibrate) about how everyone is attacking you and doing it wrong when it actually is the other way around. But please, continue to tell us all how much we don't know and how great you are at this. I'm sure we'll get it eventually, just like your settings.
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Really this is getting tedious but let's try again.
I got the LK970 to look at after hearing you cry to the heavens about how great it was. I made my initial impressions on the unit, which didn't end up being a surprise and gave it credit for its strengths and mentioned its weaknesses. You then asked if I was planning on trying your settings to which I responded YES and please provide. The VERY next post I made asked if you had a calibration target you used with those settings. From there on you NEVER (and to this day still have never) provided ANY settings to try. Mike eventually pointing me to a post that someone found with some settings in it, and since I never heard anything from you (at least useful) I used those but asked AGAIN about calibration targets (of course these settings were not the ones you wanted me to use, but you never provide those, but then said you posted settings all the time, then said the settings were buried in some emails and on and on and on and on). Of course none of this was ever provided until after I got tired of waiting to hopefully do your settings some justice and posted my results and talked about why I didn't understand your approach after just doing it a different way that makes FAR MORE sense regardless of how you feel about it. Maybe it is my much better understanding of image science and calibration, because the more you post and talk in circles, the more I am pretty sure that is what it is. There is a reason that EVERY video processing solution out there goes about this in a certain way. But they probably don't know as much about this as you either I guess?? And you wonder why I called you a name.
If I were to actually try and calibrate to some standard with your settings the BEST I could hope to achieve would be to match what I could already get with the method I used. Mapping a 2020 color source to a 709 projector and tone mapping to give the best results for the amount of light I had. But because YOU don't seem to understand this, you persist with your BS story (and endless amount of comments about providing settings and saying to calibrate) about how everyone is attacking you and doing it wrong when it actually is the other way around. But please, continue to tell us all how much we don't know and how great you are at this. I'm sure we'll get it eventually, just like your settings.
The only tedious thing is having to repeat myself over and over again and realizing nobody ever reads what I am writing and cares to even try to understand what it is I’m saying.
I have said it is not about the merits of the other solutions rather the limitations of the LKs and why I have found you need to do it that way. Of course why listen to me when I have had, tested and experimented endlessly with these for well over a year plus but you had it for only two weeks or so.
I guess you are the king and I am just the court jester. Your total arrogance is astonishing Kris. Just drop it Kris. It’s clear you don’t care enough to even entertain the possibility of what I’m saying and all you’re doing is a complete disservice to your readers and client base in doing so.
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I guess you are the king and I am just the court jester. Your total arrogance is astonishing Kris. Just drop it Kris. It’s clear you don’t care enough to even entertain the possibility of what I’m saying and all you’re doing is a complete disservice to your readers and client base in doing so.
But that is just it, I DO UNDERSTAND. I am trying to provide a service to my readers and clients by telling them that rather than go through all these base line settings that don't really exist as you prefer them, and then trying to calibrate to a color space that the projector can't reach, and then calibrate to PQ, which makes about zero sense for this projector, there is an easier way that is clear, precise and gives better results all while giving you clear standards to calibrate to and results that speak for themselves. All without nearly any of the hassle.
The ITU has already defined a standard for coverting 2020 to 709 PRECISELY FOR THIS REASON, and Panasonic implemented it. Panasonic does a fantastic job with tone mapping, including adapting to content metadata, so why would you try and do a bad gamma overlay that can't be calibrated (the LK does not have a multi-point gamma) when you can calibrate just fine to a power gamma of 2.4 and use that (just fine is a little dishonest, the black floor of this projector is so high that calibration software won't even let you do a power gamma, and a BT1886 gamma is closer to a 2.0 to 2.1). But you think it is a better idea for everyone to just throw your settings in and then fine tune them, all the while making massive adjustments to color/tine/contrast/brightness without taking into account how much that screws up linearity, dynamic range and color performance. Sure, I'm the guy that is doing the disservice and stroking my own ego. If I wanted to stroke my ego I would come up with my own settings and tell everyone there is no better way, but I'm smart enough to know there is.
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But that is just it, I DO UNDERSTAND. I am trying to provide a service to my readers and clients by telling them that rather than go through all these base line settings that don't really exist as you prefer them, and then trying to calibrate to a color space that the projector can't reach, and then calibrate to PQ, which makes about zero sense for this projector, there is an easier way that is clear, precise and gives better results all while giving you clear standards to calibrate to and results that speak for themselves. All without nearly any of the hassle.
The ITU has already defined a standard for coverting 2020 to 709 PRECISELY FOR THIS REASON, and Panasonic implemented it. Panasonic does a fantastic job with tone mapping, including adapting to content metadata, so why would you try and do a bad gamma overlay that can't be calibrated (the LK does not have a multi-point gamma) when you can calibrate just fine to a power gamma of 2.4 and use that (just fine is a little dishonest, the black floor of this projector is so high that calibration software won't even let you do a power gamma, and a BT1886 gamma is closer to a 2.0 to 2.1). But you think it is a better idea for everyone to just throw your settings in and then fine tune them, all the while making massive adjustments to color/tine/contrast/brightness without taking into account how much that screws up linearity, dynamic range and color performance. Sure, I'm the guy that is doing the disservice and stroking my own ego. If I wanted to stroke my ego I would come up with my own settings and tell everyone there is no better way, but I'm smart enough to know there is.
No, you don’t.
I guess I will just have to keep repeating myself over and over again until you actually take time to care and to read and comprehend what I am actually saying, instead of you thinking what you think I am saying. I’ll spell it out in easy terms for you to understand hopefully
1. I’m NOT saying this is best for ALL displays and projectors. I am saying due it’s limitations this is best for THIS projector! So no, I am NOT stroking my ego saying what you envision I am saying. I am saying this as FACT based on having, testing and experimenting with BOTH methods (HDR vs HDR to SDR Tone mapped) for well over a year on THIS PARTICULAR MODEL, so I think that qualifies ME to say this, just as other brand experts like to preach about with THEIR extensive experience with their models.
2. The way you suggest to tone map HDR to SDR does NOT give better results as you’re proclaiming. Again due to the LKs limitations and how it was engineered.
3. Again and for the millionth time, I AM using a Panasonic UB820 and it IS using the Optimizer and its Luminance mapping, adapting to content metadata, etc. and its other features. I am just not converting HDR to SDR. This was a big step up from when I first used the Oppo 203 to do this, as i am sure you’ll agree for once.
4. I HAVE accounted for linearity, dynamic range, and color performance! This is what I am trying to say by telling you that you put in the base settings and then do a calibration because this accounts for those things and puts those in line and maybe if you actually listened or did that then you would see that this is the case but since you didn’t you have no authority to say otherwise in your limited time with this projector!
5. I am not saying there is no better way in all other instances and as I have even stated many times to Javs and others and even here just above, that it is not about the lack of merits or performance of a Lumagen, madVR or any other dynamic, static or other tone mapping solution. Those are better solutions 95% of the time. It is simply what I have found to be the best solution for getting the best possible image out of this particular model of projector with how it was designed and engineered with its dynamic dimming/automatic power control, RGBY laser phosphor, color wheel design and other design features for this particular model.
6. I am also smart enough to know after having, testing, evaluating and experimenting with this particular model for over a year plus what is best to input to it and what the best settings are for it. That is not stroking my ego or being arrogant as you are being by trying to say otherwise with such limited time with this model and design And trying to say otherwise, totally discounting my many, many hours on this unit. I would never do that to you for a model that you have extensive experience with and I take offense that you do that to me, so yes that is why I take it so personal because you are basically saying that I am an idiot and a fool that after all this time still can’t figure out what is best for this particular model and you are flat out wrong no matter how you try to spin it or what you say based on your limited time.
7. Call me when you’ve had the same amount of time testing, evaluating, watching, calibrating and experimenting with one of these. Until then, what you say ON THIS PARTICULAR MODEL is moot.
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The only tedious thing is having to repeat myself over and over again and realizing nobody ever reads what I am writing and cares to even try to understand what it is I’m saying.
I have said it is not about the merits of the other solutions rather the limitations of the LKs and why I have found you need to do it that way. Of course why listen to me when I have had, tested and experimented endlessly with these for well over a year plus but you had it for only two weeks or so.
I guess you are the king and I am just the court jester. Your total arrogance is astonishing Kris. Just drop it Kris. It’s clear you don’t care enough to even entertain the possibility of what I’m saying and all you’re doing is a complete disservice to your readers and client base in doing so.
Dave, it doesn't take a year to figure out how to calibrate a projector. If it takes you that long to do it, you're doing it wrong. I'm sure Kris, with his years of professional work in this field, can figure out how to make a display look its best. You say people can use your settings as a baseline to get you most of the way there, but it still needs to be calibrated at some point to look its best. Anyone who knows how to calibrate can get it done in one sitting if they needed to. It isn't a year long pursuit if you're calibrating to a specific standard. So stop trying to make it seem as if there's some sort of mysticism surrounding these BenQ models, like there's a set of settings we need to stumble upon which magically make the image so much better than calibrating it to some specific reference.
You're either forcing HDR into an SDR mode and calibrating that mode to emulate PQ/REC2020 or you're having something tonemap the image and calibrating based on how the tonemap is altering the image. There is no other way to do it correctly. There is no misunderstanding on our part so stop the pity party. It just seems like you want to call it quits because we've figured out your game and are too proud to concede anything.
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No, you don’t.
I guess I will just have to keep repeating myself over and over again until you actually take time to care and to read and comprehend what I am actually saying, instead of you thinking what you think I am saying. I’ll spell it out in easy terms for you to understand hopefully
1. I’m NOT saying this is best for ALL displays and projectors. I am saying due it’s limitations this is best for THIS projector! So no, I am NOT stroking my ego saying what you envision I am saying. I am saying this as FACT based on having, testing and experimenting with BOTH methods (HDR vs HDR to SDR Tone mapped) for well over a year on THIS PARTICULAR MODEL, so I think that qualifies ME to say this, just as other brand experts like to preach about with THEIR extensive experience with their models.
2. The way you suggest to tone map HDR to SDR does NOT give better results as you’re proclaiming. Again due to the LKs limitations and how it was engineered.
3. Again and for the millionth time, I AM using a Panasonic UB820 and it IS using the Optimizer and its Luminance mapping, adapting to content metadata, etc. and its other features. I am just not converting HDR to SDR. This was a big step up from when I first used the Oppo 203 to do this, as i am sure you’ll agree for once.
4. I HAVE accounted for linearity, dynamic range, and color performance! This is what I am trying to say by telling you that you put in the base settings and then do a calibration because this accounts for those things and puts those in line and maybe if you actually listened or did that then you would see that this is the case but since you didn’t you have no authority to say otherwise in your limited time with this projector!
5. I am not saying there is no better way in all other instances and as I have even stated many times to Javs and others and even here just above, that it is not about the lack of merits or performance of a Lumagen, madVR or any other dynamic, static or other tone mapping solution. Those are better solutions 95% of the time. It is simply what I have found to be the best solution for getting the best possible image out of this particular model of projector with how it was designed and engineered with its dynamic dimming/automatic power control, RGBY laser phosphor, color wheel design and other design features for this particular model.
6. I am also smart enough to know after having, testing, evaluating and experimenting with this particular model for over a year plus what is best to input to it and what the best settings are for it. That is not stroking my ego or being arrogant as you are being by trying to say otherwise with such limited time with this model and design And trying to say otherwise, totally discounting my many, many hours on this unit. I would never do that to you for a model that you have extensive experience with and I take offense that you do that to me, so yes that is why I take it so personal because you are basically saying that I am an idiot and a fool that after all this time still can’t figure out what is best for this particular model and you are flat out wrong no matter how you try to spin it or what you say based on your limited time.
7. Call me when you’ve had the same amount of time testing, evaluating, watching, calibrating and experimenting with one of these. Until then, what you say ON THIS PARTICULAR MODEL is moot.
Yes, Dave, for the millionth time...we know how you're setting things up. We know you're using the HDR Optimizer to alter the HDR image. But again, to do it correctly, you still need to calibrate the image based on how the UB820 is altering the stock HDR image.
You want to make it seem as if there is some mystery behind what you're doing. There isn't. Calibration is still an objective task. If you want the image to look correct, it needs to be calibrated based upon how the player is tonemapping the image.
If you really feel this passionate about all of this, and feel so strongly that we're all wrong, please come to the mainland and prove to us just how wrong we all are. I'm sure someone will gladly host a meetup where we can do a proper shootout with the LK990 set up to your liking. Either put up or shut up. We've ALL spent time and money playing around with these projectors based on your comments. Now it's your turn...
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No, you don’t. You guys contradict yourselves and what I’m saying in almost every post.
I never said it took a year to calibrate. Thanks for the condescension and personal dig once again, saying it takes a year for me to calibrate for God’s sake. Yep, I’m that incompetent. I said I have gotten to know the nuances of the projector over that time which therefore I can use to make it perform at its best with with it can and can’t do. If you say this doesn’t matter then your flat out lying. I hear it constantly from other longtime brand/model owners and this is no different.
I also never said it was some mystical mysticism or “magic” settings. I always was free and Open and said d exactly what I was doing and why. All of YOU are the ones making it WAY more than it has to be and creating such turmoil. Those threads were perfectly fine and people who actually listened and tried were thrilled and happy and nicely asked questions to proceed the thread and topic forward until “they” decided to come along and crap all over everything. Funny how those novices got the concepts and figured it out and if they didn’t understand they asked questions nicely and in a honest non condescending way to actually understand and learn something instead of being stubborn thinking their “normal” way is the ONLY way.
That’s exactly what I’m doing, hopefully soon.
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This thread is going in circles... just like the one in AVS.
So for the last time, and to help future owners:
1. What's your recommended settings for LK970/990 to date?
2. If you have accounted for linearity and colour performance, then I assume this has been measured? Can you share the measurements?
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Those threads were perfectly fine and people who actually listened and tried were thrilled and happy and nicely asked questions to proceed the thread and topic forward until “they” decided to come along and crap all over everything. Funny how those novices got the concepts and figured it out and if they didn’t understand they asked questions nicely and in a honest non condescending way to actually understand and learn something instead of being stubborn thinking their “normal” way is the ONLY way.
That’s exactly what I’m doing, hopefully soon.
Thats a HUGE Oxymoron.
Its OK for novices to try your settings and love them without calibration (they did it right according to you) but for pros who actually know anything about calibration, they did it wrong because they did not calibrate and thus their opinion is void.
Did you know if somebody calibrates your settings they are not even close to your settings anymore? You cant calibrate accurate with colour settings jacked either, so those would need to be dailed back so as not to clip colour.
Whas left in your settings then? Run 2.8 gamma? Is that it?
Post a graph with your settings in play showing that colour is not clipping early.
Those are areas you could provide graphs on to show how you expect people to do it. You could show the PQ curve tracking? Most of us could read those curves in our sleep based on how many hundreds we have made with the Arve tool and know exactly what you are doing to the image.
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Thats a HUGE Oxymoron.
Its OK for novices to try your settings and love them without calibration (they did it right according to you) but for pros who actually know anything about calibration, they did it wrong because they did not calibrate and thus their opinion is void.
Did you know if somebody calibrates your settings they are not even close to your settings anymore? You cant calibrate accurate with colour settings jacked either, so those would need to be dailed back so as not to clip colour.
Whas left in your settings then? Run 2.8 gamma? Is that it?
Post a graph with your settings in play showing that colour is not clipping early.
Those are areas you could provide graphs on to show how you expect people to do it. You could show the PQ curve tracking? Most of us could read those curves in our sleep based on how many hundreds we have made with the Arve tool and know exactly what you are doing to the image.
That is not true at all Javs. The colors are not jacked or clipping early. Initially they kind of are but then I calibrate to the 50 or 75% point and they track pretty nicely until they give up the ghost. I know for a fact I posted a gamut somewhere at some point.
Within the next month to month and a half or so I should be able to have more time to research and dig into finding all the LK970 info I have. Whether you believe it or not (and I don’t care if you do honestly and I owe it to no one), at least 90% of my LK970 info was on the AGI servers because that’s who I worked with and was paid from to do calibrations on the ones sold so it was all stored there and used to attach to the customer’s invoice and emails. I had access to it for the longest time and it abruptly ended one day before I could attempt to download or send it to myself. I’m not sure I was even allowed to be honest since it was company property.
The PQ curve rolled off smoothly without a sharp knee to it and I know I posted an mention that very early on but the image was awesome with it that way.
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This seems to be a pretty useless debate transfered from elswhere, with no objective information.
How about some facts like contrast, ansi contrast, NATIVE, light output, and color saturation and tracking.
I think HDR is a shitshow no matter how you turn or manipulate it, and a low contrast projector will only do low dynamic range, its in its nature, no matter how bright it is.
Whats measured Anis and on off contrast with fully open iris on these projectors.? or even better whats measured black level.
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This seems to be a pretty useless debate transfered from elswhere, with no objective information.
How about some facts like contrast, ansi contrast, NATIVE, light output, and color saturation and tracking.
I think HDR is a shitshow no matter how you turn or manipulate it, and a low contrast projector will only do low dynamic range, its in its nature, no matter how bright it is.
Whats measured Anis and on off contrast with fully open iris on these projectors.? or even better whats measured black level.
He's been asked many times for this information. I doubt he's going to provide any objective data to back up his claims after reading his last remarks where apparently Dave will need to do some type of Mission Impossible break-in to get the supposed data he has:
(https://i.imgur.com/jne593q.jpg)
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" Dave will need to do some type of Mission Impossible break-in to get the supposed data he has " - you nearly sent coffee through my nose ! ::)
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He's been asked many times for this information. I doubt he's going to provide any objective data to back up his claims after reading his last remarks where apparently Dave will need to do some type of Mission Impossible break-in to get the supposed data he has:
(https://i.imgur.com/jne593q.jpg)
That doesnt even make sense to me either, the data should be on whatever computer calman was installed on, which I would gather is his laptop...
I think that was the best excuse ive seen yet.
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Wouldn't it be easier to just give updated calibration readings? If he has the projectors, his meters and calibration software it should only take a little bit to just do the measurements and show the results. Or like Javs said, just go into CalMan and recall the session.
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" Dave will need to do some type of Mission Impossible break-in to get the supposed data he has " - you nearly sent coffee through my nose ! ::)
I had a pretty good chuckle to myself as I typed that out. ;D
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This thread has become exactly why I haven't been to Avsforum for months! :-\
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Quote from Javs on AVS Forum:
.....A little sneaky stab, it reminded me of the LK990 vs my JVCs contrast looked in my room.......
Yeah what a shame you just aren’t capable of setting it up properly to get the best performance. Maybe you’ll get there someday.
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Yeah what a shame you just aren’t capable of setting it up properly to get the best performance. Maybe you’ll get there someday.
Hows your permanent vacation from AVSForum going? I bet you are burning that you cant post there...
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Javs, which model were you referring to?
Edit: nevermind, I found it.
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Hows your permanent vacation from AVSForum going? I bet you are burning that you cant post there...
Actually it’s been quite refreshing not having to deal with all the arrogant narcissists. Thanks for asking!
I do get a few good laughs at all the ignorance and bias that now goes unchecked though!
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Hows your permanent vacation from AVSForum going? I bet you are burning that you cant post there...
He's found Facebook as a way to peddle his magic potions.
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I never understood the reason to make this projector into something that it wasn't. I mean, eventually the cat was going to get out of the bag. The deficiencies should have been embraced from the get-go and there wouldn't have ever been a controversy surrounding this projector.
The argument could have been "sure it doesn't have great contrast, but if you're willing to live with that, you're going to be rewarded with an impressively sharp and bright projector that has a lot of pop". Instead we got this argument but will the added photos that made it seem as if this projector could go toe to toe with a Sony or JVC projector when content got dark.
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He's found Facebook as a way to peddle his magic potions.
So ONE post to an old cohort and that’s “peddling” now? What exactly is it that I’m “peddling” anyway? Do I somehow make money on this?
No magic potions here. You “pros” are the ones that concocted all that BS. It all only comes from many years of experience and knowledge meeting experimentation and thinking out of the box, which apparently nobody here or there is capable of.
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I never understood the reason to make this projector into something that it wasn't. I mean, eventually the cat was going to get out of the bag. The deficiencies should have been embraced from the get-go and there wouldn't have ever been a controversy surrounding this projector.
The argument could have been "sure it doesn't have great contrast, but if you're willing to live with that, you're going to be rewarded with an impressively sharp and bright projector that has a lot of pop". Instead we got this argument but will the added photos that made it seem as if this projector could go toe to toe with a Sony or JVC projector when content got dark.
Please show me ONE instance that I said it could go “toe to toe” with a JVC or Sony with native contrast?
All I ever said was exactly what you wrote and that the blacks and contrast weren’t as bad as it was made out to be by the biased crowd. There are MANY who also agree with me.
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Please show me ONE instance that I said it could go “toe to toe” with a JVC or Sony with native contrast?
All I ever said was exactly what you wrote and that the blacks and contrast weren’t as bad as it was made out to be by the biased crowd. There are MANY who also agree with me.
Are you going to actually contribute anything useful to this forum, or are you going to use it as a platform to winge and moan just like the last forum?
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Please show me ONE instance that I said it could go “toe to toe” with a JVC or Sony with native contrast?
All I ever said was exactly what you wrote and that the blacks and contrast weren’t as bad as it was made out to be by the biased crowd. There are MANY who also agree with me.
I said it was the photos you posted.
Unfortunately for you, others who have a lot of experience with projectors have seen this projector and don't agree. 1000:1 native contrast has an obvious weakness. You should have embraced it from the start instead of embellishing the truth.
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Please show me ONE instance that I said it could go “toe to toe” with a JVC or Sony with native contrast?
All I ever said was exactly what you wrote and that the blacks and contrast weren’t as bad as it was made out to be by the biased crowd. There are MANY who also agree with me.
Dave, everyone that compared the two side by side all had the same thing to say about the contrast on the LK. We are talking Woofer, Markmon1, Kris, Javs, Dylan and Dylan's friend. That is six people all saying the same thing and none of them trashed the LK. All of them had good things to say about it, other than it's weakness of contrast.
I should send you the emails from Jav's, early on regarding his hopes for the LK. Based on all the hype you gave the LK, he was all ready to buy one. Was talking about how he could give up some contrast if the LK still did okay. Jav's was seriously looking for a projector to light up a large low gain screen. So Jav's did not go into this wanting the LK to fail. Jav's was excited about the LK. So rather than say everyone portrayed the LK incorrectly, maybe you should compare the two side by side, but you need to do so in a black pit of a room, because all the people I listed that did the comparison, used black pit rooms.
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Mike, thank you for stepping into foray and trying to keep the peace.
I am asking that everybody please take a breath and agree to disagree, this discussion site will not tolerate disrespect for anybody's opinions.
Don't make me send you to your rooms. ::)
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I said it was the photos you posted.
Unfortunately for you, others who have a lot of experience with projectors have seen this projector and don't agree. 1000:1 native contrast has an obvious weakness. You should have embraced it from the start instead of embellishing the truth.
As do I..........
I’ve always “embraced” it and never once said native contrast wasn’t its weakness. All I ever said was the other strengths outweighed it’s weakness and that weakness itself wasn’t as bad as all of you portrayed it it be, especially due to incorrect setup and maximization of its true potential.
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Dave, everyone that compared the two side by side all had the same thing to say about the contrast on the LK. We are talking Woofer, Markmon1, Kris, Javs, Dylan and Dylan's friend. That is six people all saying the same thing and none of them trashed the LK. All of them had good things to say about it, other than it's weakness of contrast.
I should send you the emails from Jav's, early on regarding his hopes for the LK. Based on all the hype you gave the LK, he was all ready to buy one. Was talking about how he could give up some contrast if the LK still did okay. Jav's was seriously looking for a projector to light up a large low gain screen. So Jav's did not go into this wanting the LK to fail. Jav's was excited about the LK. So rather than say everyone portrayed the LK incorrectly, maybe you should compare the two side by side, but you need to do so in a black pit of a room, because all the people I listed that did the comparison, used black pit rooms.
See my reply above to Dylan. Please stop these falsehoods and misdirections that somehow I was saying its native contrast was on par with the LCoS and SXRDs of the world.
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Mike, thank you for stepping into foray and trying to keep the peace.
I am asking that everybody please take a breath and agree to disagree, this discussion site will not tolerate disrespect for anybody's opinions.
Don't make me send you to your rooms. ::)
Thanks mom, I’m sorry! ::)
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See my reply above to Dylan. Please stop these falsehoods and misdirections that somehow I was saying its native contrast was on par with the LCoS and SXRDs of the world.
Show me the falsehood in my statement and misdirection? What has happened to you?
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Show me the falsehood in my statement and misdirection? What has happened to you?
OK, like this:
Dave, everyone that compared the two side by side all had the same thing to say about the contrast on the LK.
It wasn’t just directed toward you either.
The misdirection is that you guys always make it about the contrast (because you know that’s one place it is weaker than your JVCs and the only way to win your argument), even though I never said that was its strength......not once! Why is that pretty much the only thing that’s brought up by you guys then?
Nothing has happened to me, believe me. Take a real good step back and just look at the what’s happened over there in the last few years. That’s all the proof you need. It’s a dying horse being continually beaten due to the closed minded and biased attitudes and culture that’s been created. Nobody seems to have an original thought anymore and they just toe the company line and agree with anything the so-called “experts” say, regardless of any proof otherwise, sight unseen. If anyone says otherwise, the posse all comes out if the woodwork and trounces the poor unsuspecting victim until he’s either assimilated or subsequently beaten down and eventually removed.
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Dave, one of the issues I have with your subjective thoughts on the LK990 and LK970 is that you've never had one of these units up against a JVC or Sony 4K model in the same room at the same time. You may have seen a JVC eshift model at your place long ago, but that is not the same thing as having them both in the same room at the same time to A/B compare. So how exactly do you know what the difference is or, better yet, if the difference isn't as big as we say it is?
I'm not saying this to put the projector down, but when I did an A/B comparison between the RS2000 and LK990, we literally laughed out loud when we saw the saw the difference in contrast performance. That's just how jarring the difference was. All we could do was laugh. So, I challenge your claim that the difference isn't as great as we say it is. Sorry Dave, it really is a "laugh out loud funny" kind of difference. And this wasn't with torture-type content like star fields and black out sequences. This was with regular everyday content. On top of this, this was with the RS2000, not the older e-shift models that have even more contrast available.
You can claim we may not have set things up properly to compare HDR with your magic settings, but contrast performance cannot be fixed or helped with your settings. The level of black is what it is on this projector.
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OK, like this:
It wasn’t just directed toward you either.
The misdirection is that you guys always make it about the contrast (because you know that’s one place it is weaker than your JVCs and the only way to win your argument), even though I never said that was its strength......not once! Why is that pretty much the only thing that’s brought up by you guys then?
Nothing has happened to me, believe me. Take a real good step back and just look at the what’s happened over there in the last few years. That’s all the proof you need. It’s a dying horse being continually beaten due to the closed minded and biased attitudes and culture that’s been created. Nobody seems to have an original thought anymore and they just toe the company line and agree with anything the so-called “experts” say, regardless of any proof otherwise, sight unseen. If anyone says otherwise, the posse all comes out if the woodwork and trounces the poor unsuspecting victim until he’s either assimilated or subsequently beaten down and eventually removed.
The contrast is the main issue for it for everybody that has compared it in a bat pit room. Nobody is going to complain about it's sharpness, which is very good. Also motion is good and so is brightness, depending on how you have it set up. The other complaints are pretty minor.
Dave the guys you are arguing with have all seen and compared side by side an LK with one of the JVC's. So they are not blindly follow others. The JVC's are far from perfect. The JVC's need more light output, more contrast and several minor things fixed or added. Such as DCR modes added, DI work to reduce a yellowing issue that is complained about on the 1000 and 2000.
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Dave, one of the issues I have with your subjective thoughts on the LK990 and LK970 is that you've never had one of these units up against a JVC or Sony 4K model in the same room at the same time. You may have seen a JVC eshift model at your place long ago, but that is not the same thing as having them both in the same room at the same time to A/B compare. So how exactly do you know what the difference is or, better yet, if the difference isn't as big as we say it is?
I'm not saying this to put the projector down, but when I did an A/B comparison between the RS2000 and LK990, we literally laughed out loud when we saw the saw the difference in contrast performance. That's just how jarring the difference was. All we could do was laugh. So, I challenge your claim that the difference isn't as great as we say it is. Sorry Dave, it really is a "laugh out loud funny" kind of difference. And this wasn't with torture-type content like star fields and black out sequences. This was with regular everyday content. On top of this, this was with the RS2000, not the older e-shift models that have even more contrast available.
You can claim we may not have set things up properly to compare HDR with your magic settings, but contrast performance cannot be fixed or helped with your settings. The level of black is what it is on this projector.
I guess I will respectfully and fully agree to disagree then.
I did have a Sony 885 and many others including an Epson LS10500 while I was making many evaluations and conclusions. I personally chose the LK because it was better overall, especially for the money savings. I KNOW what good deep blacks and contrast are. Please everyone stop talking to me as if I’m some novice with no experience. It’s so condescending to me. I’ve been working with projectors for over 25 years and in TV/Radio and AV for more than 30 years. Believe it or not I know what I’m doing. :-\
I have no doubt you all could get to the same place i did with as much time and effort as I have invested in these, so no, based on what’s been reported and posted and said, then the LK wasn’t optimized as I have it. So yes, it’s a a setup issue.
These LKs have Automatic Power control and dynamic laser dimming (on the 990). If you massage the settings in the right way you can maximize the cut off point of the laser dimming so it doesn’t drop immediately down off a cliff and you get a smooth transition to off pretty much. This is no different than how people are talking about the RS4500 and it’s a laser dimming but you just have to kind of force it yourself if you figure it out, which I have. As I have said, you have to send it the HDRBT2020 signal, not SDR. It is just how this model seems to work best.
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I guess I will respectfully and fully agree to disagree then.
I did have a Sony 885 and many others including an Epson LS10500 while I was making many evaluations and conclusions. I personally chose the LK because it was better overall, especially for the money savings. I KNOW what good deep blacks and contrast are. Please everyone stop talking to me as if I’m some novice with no experience. It’s so condescending to me. I’ve been working with projectors for over 25 years and in TV/Radio and AV for more than 30 years. Believe it or not I know what I’m doing. :-\
I have no doubt you all could get to the same place i did with as much time and effort as I have invested in these, so no, based on what’s been reported and posted and said, then the LK wasn’t optimized as I have it. So yes, it’s a a setup issue.
These LKs have Automatic Power control and dynamic laser dimming (on the 990). If you massage the settings in the right way you can maximize the cut off point of the laser dimming so it doesn’t drop immediately down off a cliff and you get a smooth transition to off pretty much. This is no different than how people are talking about the RS4500 and it’s a laser dimming but you just have to kind of force it yourself if you figure it out, which I have. As I have said, you have to send it the HDRBT2020 signal, not SDR. It is just how this model seems to work best.
From the AVSF VW885 thread, post 2734 referring to the 885 you had: "I barely did anything with it because as soon as I installed it and we fired it up just to watch a quick movie since it was late on a Friday night as I recall. I think I just set my Oppo to HDR Off/BT2020 and somewhere around 400 nits mode 2 just for that night and was going to do full install over the weekend. As soon as I brought up a settings menu I saw the streak above the lettering so I pulled up the grid and was shocked at what I saw. I sent an email to the dealer immediately and never bothered doing anything after. I immediately noticed something wasn't right as the image looked flatter and like something was off compared to the VW285ES I had there shortly before which wowed out of the box."
You barely owned the 885 and on top of that, it was defective. I remembered you posting about the 885 arriving defective and that you immediately sent it back. I did not bother looking for the post where you said you immediately sent it back, but do remember it.
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Hi everyone, long time lurker first time poster. The discussion around the lk990 is quite timely because I am in the market for something similar right now. I’ve read this entire thread and have to admit I don’t understand half of what is being said.
Is the lk990 a good fit for me? Or is something like the epson pro 1405u going to give me better contrast and black levels?
I’m looking for a projector with 5000+ lumens that will give me the best native contrast and blacks for under 15k. I will be projecting onto a 150” 2.4:1 CIH grey screen (.6 or .7 gain). There will be plenty of high ambient light, but I’d also like to get the most enjoyment out of a movie at night now and then. The epson appeals to me over the lk990 because it’s easier to adjust lumen output, but I’m just not sure if I’m choosing the best high lumen projector with the best contrast/blacks available under 15k.
Steven
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The LK990 can't do 5000+ lumens and contrast performance on it is pretty abysmal, even among DLP projectors. Go with the Epson. It will be brighter and have more contrast.
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Thanks for the insight Dylan. It’s frustrating when companies like benq tout a 6000 lumen projector that can’t even put out 5000, and even more frustrating when trying to figure out a projector’s native contrast ratio is like pulling teeth. I don’t want to derail this thread so maybe I’ll start my own, but I have some concerns with the epson too.
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I read this whole thread and all I have to say is WOW.
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I read this whole thread and all I have to say is WOW.
That's all you have to say haha? ;D
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I read this whole thread and all I have to say is WOW.
Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but if you saw the LK990 set to HDR Brightness of -2, color at ~7 and Color Enhancement at ~16, paired with an HDFury Vertex2 doing the LLDV/Dolby Vision tweak with a DV String set to Max Luminance (nits) of 10,000 nits then you certainly would be saying "Wow"! It would just be in the correct context instead of the sarcastic, false one you used initially.
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While I have no doubts getting Dolby Vision to the LK990 helps with image quality, you're still left with this projector's limited native contrast performance. Despite what a lot of people assume, HDR is not about high image brightness, but rather, as its name implies, high dynamic range. When you have a severely limited black floor and available contrast, you simply cannot render HDR convincingly. That's why the HDR alliance says a minimum of 20000:1 contrast is needed to get their seal of approval.
Case in point, I just picked up a used Digital Projection dVision 30 1080p XC projector. With both lamps on, it has about as much light as the LK990, but more native contrast. Despite this, the 4K Sony laser and 4K JVC lamp units I have here do a better job portraying HDR despite their lack of image brightness available. There's just more dynamic range available to do the content justice. I'm not saying having a lot light to work with isn't important, just that if you don't also have a lot of contrast to work with, the image will still be lacking.
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While I have no doubts getting Dolby Vision to the LK990 helps with image quality, you're still left with this projector's limited native contrast performance. Despite what a lot of people assume, HDR is not about high image brightness, but rather, as its name implies, high dynamic range. When you have a severely limited black floor and available contrast, you simply cannot render HDR convincingly. That's why the HDR alliance says a minimum of 20000:1 contrast is needed to get their seal of approval.
Case in point, I just picked up a used Digital Projection dVision 30 1080p XC projector. With both lamps on, it has about as much light as the LK990, but more native contrast. Despite this, the 4K Sony laser and 4K JVC lamp units I have here do a better job portraying HDR despite their lack of image brightness available. There's just more dynamic range available to do the content justice. I'm not saying having a lot light to work with isn't important, just that if you don't also have a lot of contrast to work with, the image will still be lacking.
I loved my Digital Projection dVision 1080p projector I had. Super sharp picture. But, it was always a balancing act closing down the iris for better contrast vs a brighter picture.
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I loved my Digital Projection dVision 1080p projector I had. Super sharp picture. But, it was always a balancing act closing down the iris for better contrast vs a brighter picture.
These are selling so cheap used on eBay right now. My plan is to use one as a backyard projector for movie nights at our camp.
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These are selling so cheap used on eBay right now. My plan is to use one as a backyard projector for movie nights at our camp.
When I bought mine it was one of the very first 1080p projectors - totally state of the art ! And not cheap - $20K !
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While I have no doubts getting Dolby Vision to the LK990 helps with image quality, you're still left with this projector's limited native contrast performance. Despite what a lot of people assume, HDR is not about high image brightness, but rather, as its name implies, high dynamic range. When you have a severely limited black floor and available contrast, you simply cannot render HDR convincingly. That's why the HDR alliance says a minimum of 20000:1 contrast is needed to get their seal of approval.
Case in point, I just picked up a used Digital Projection dVision 30 1080p XC projector. With both lamps on, it has about as much light as the LK990, but more native contrast. Despite this, the 4K Sony laser and 4K JVC lamp units I have here do a better job portraying HDR despite their lack of image brightness available. There's just more dynamic range available to do the content justice. I'm not saying having a lot light to work with isn't important, just that if you don't also have a lot of contrast to work with, the image will still be lacking.
Thanks for the info on contrast and how HDR is supposed to work and what it is. I guess it'll help some newbies who don't understand these things. Good thing I totally understand it all and can indeed get an absolutely incredible HDR/Dolby Vision image on screen with this combo.
If you say brightness doesn't matter, then you render the great flat panels that can do that utterly moot. As anyone who actually knows what HDR is and does, the main and almost entirety of the movie is still within the 100 nit max range, or at least is supposed to be mastered that way, the same as its SDR counterpart. The extra brightness is reserved for specular highlights, etc. So by using a lower nit projector you're just forcing the display, source or tone mapping device/processor to compress that range available further down to whatever it has for its peak nits. No compression is always better than any compression. Tone Mapping is compression, but I am sure you already know that, so I guess that's for the newbies too.
With this higher brightness LK990, I still have the same original 100 nits brightness for the main part of the HDR video, but also the extra brightness over the lower nit projector is now there for what is easily seen as amazing specular highlights and incredible "HDR Effects", like you see on some of the best HDR/DV flat panels, which haven't been compressed by tone mapping as much or at all.
The laser levels in this projector are able to be lowered based on what is input, using the unit's Automatic Power Control and SmartEco features, similar to what is reported with the much more expensive JVC RS4500, and why many prefer its black levels and shadow details over the reportedly better RS3000 (@markmon for example). When you input and present a 10,000 nit Dolby Vision custom string using the HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro with a BT2020 color gamut along with setting the LK990 to an HDR Brightness setting of -2, color at around 7, Brilliant Color ON and Color Enhancement to about 16. This combo makes this happen along with great color tracking along the color gamut sweeps, unlike when you use default color at 50 and Color Enhancement OFF and Brilliant Color ON (as noted previously by me, you, @Javs, etc.)
Couple that with all the things that make the image much more detailed than even the mighty RS4500, as easily seen in the image attached, by @Woofer.
And no, I am not going to go around and around with you again here. I have it here and have for a LONG time, doing extensive testing and configurations with many different sources and signals. You haven't. I know what it can and can't do, you don't. And yes, I do agree the one area it can't compete totally is native on/off contrast and a little color saturation, and have always said that. But I have also always said all the other attributes this presents are far superior, and I still completely stand by that. I can all but guarantee anyone else who sees what I see here with Dolby Vision would feel the exact same way too.
Your stubbornness to not want to really dig deep and understand this projector and what it can do never ceases to amaze me. I don't understand why. Who does it hurt? You all just keep living in the SDR past, with old thoughts and paradigms that simply don't apply here.
Please all be safe and healthy in these trying times!
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Dave, I didn't say brightness doesn't matter, I said its almost pointless to have if you don't have high contrast to go with it, ie something these flat panels have over your washed out looking LK990. I'm not being dramatic saying this either. The people in the room who compared the RS2000 to the LK990 (both calibrated to industry standards and using madVR to tonemap) literally laughed out loud on several occasions on how horrendous the LK990 looked when the content got even a little dark. There's only been one or two other "home theater" projectors that I've seen worse off than the LK990 in this regard. Sure, the image is sharp and there's a lot of brightness to work with, but there's no way to get around this rather expensive projectors extremely limited contrast performance and this one aspect hinders overall performance severely.
It's also worth pointing out that the vast majority of picture information for HDR10 video content remains in the under 100 nit portion of the picture. That's why low nit level performance is so important. How can you have convincing HDR if you only have 1000:1 contrast? The average ADL of HDR content is actually darker than most SDR video content. Just let that fact sink in.
I only post this, not for some personal vendetta against you, but rather as a retort to your hyperbole ridden posts about the amazing performance you want people to believe this projector offers. Me and several others who have seen countless projectors over the years have seen this projector and simply do not agree with your overall assessment about how this projector performs. We've even tried your custom settings and that didn't help the situation. If I were to recommend this projector, it would only be if someone had a massive screen and needed the lumens this projector offers. In terms of raw image quality, there are so many other projectors out there currently who offer more.
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Dave, I didn't say brightness doesn't matter, I said its almost pointless to have if you don't have high contrast to go with it, ie something these flat panels have over your washed out looking LK990. I'm not being dramatic saying this either. The people in the room who compared the RS2000 to the LK990 (both calibrated to industry standards and using madVR to tonemap) literally laughed out loud on several occasions on how horrendous the LK990 looked when the content got even a little dark. There's only been one or two other "home theater" projectors that I've seen worse off than the LK990 in this regard. Sure, the image is sharp and there's a lot of brightness to work with, but there's no way to get around this rather expensive projectors extremely limited contrast performance and this one aspect hinders overall performance severely.
It's also worth pointing out that the vast majority of picture information for HDR10 video content remains in the under 100 nit portion of the picture. That's why low nit level performance is so important. How can you have convincing HDR if you only have 1000:1 contrast? The average ADL of HDR content is actually darker than most SDR video content. Just let that fact sink in.
I only post this, not for some personal vendetta against you, but rather as a retort to your hyperbole ridden posts about the amazing performance you want people to believe this projector offers. Me and several others who have seen countless projectors over the years have seen this projector and simply do not agree with your overall assessment about how this projector performs. We've even tried your custom settings and that didn't help the situation. If I were to recommend this projector, it would only be if someone had a massive screen and needed the lumens this projector offers. In terms of raw image quality, there are so many other projectors out there currently who offer more.
When Kris Deering calibrated my RS4500, he traded a lot of brightness for much better shadow detail and contrast. Combined with the Lumagen's DTM, the picture looks much better and at least one friend commented on how it looked better and didn't hurt their eyes now. ;D So while sufficient brightness is necessary, so is an adequate contrast level. I didn't really need the 47 foot lamberts I had for HDR. And it's never looked better.
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Dave, I didn't say brightness doesn't matter, I said its almost pointless to have if you don't have high contrast to go with it, ie something these flat panels have over your washed out looking LK990. I'm not being dramatic saying this either. The people in the room who compared the RS2000 to the LK990 (both calibrated to industry standards and using madVR to tonemap) literally laughed out loud on several occasions on how horrendous the LK990 looked when the content got even a little dark. There's only been one or two other "home theater" projectors that I've seen worse off than the LK990 in this regard. Sure, the image is sharp and there's a lot of brightness to work with, but there's no way to get around this rather expensive projectors extremely limited contrast performance and this one aspect hinders overall performance severely.
It's also worth pointing out that the vast majority of picture information for HDR10 video content remains in the under 100 nit portion of the picture. That's why low nit level performance is so important. How can you have convincing HDR if you only have 1000:1 contrast? The average ADL of HDR content is actually darker than most SDR video content. Just let that fact sink in.
I only post this, not for some personal vendetta against you, but rather as a retort to your hyperbole ridden posts about the amazing performance you want people to believe this projector offers. Me and several others who have seen countless projectors over the years have seen this projector and simply do not agree with your overall assessment about how this projector performs. We've even tried your custom settings and that didn't help the situation. If I were to recommend this projector, it would only be if someone had a massive screen and needed the lumens this projector offers. In terms of raw image quality, there are so many other projectors out there currently who offer more.
The only thing that was "laugh out loud" was your reply to me. ;D
Is there a reason you seem to feel the need to try to lecture or educate me on this stuff, when I already know all this, and more? Maybe if you wouldn't keep glossing over what I am actually writing and saying and stop being so condescending towards me and treating me like I am some sort of child or ignorant dolt in this subject matter, we could actually have a great conversation about these things. Someone who truly cared would ask real in depth questions about this and what it is I am trying to achieve now, because this is almost completely different than the prior stuff I have written about (which you didn't understand then either).
Maybe go back and read my post again, since you seemed to ignore what it is I wrote. So much so that you just repeated what I already said about how the majority of the HDR movie is still within the 100 nit range, reserving the rest for specular highlights. You also must have missed where I said with the Dolby Vision String settings at 10,000 nits peak along with the HDR Brightness on the LK990 set at -2, it allows/forces the lasers to be able to dim to a much lower level due to its built in Automatic Power Control and SmartEco dynamic dimming systems (which seem to work in tandem), a la' the RS4500/Z1. Low ADL scenes inside castles, caves, etc. in Game of Thrones look great, especially when you have the brightness to spare which gives these scenes that also have a window and sunlight shining in incredibly high dynamic range from super low level detail through high specular sunlight highlights!
Regarding your brightness comment, here is what you actually said:
"....Despite what a lot of people assume, HDR is not about high image brightness, but rather, as its name implies, high dynamic range....."
While I agree, you can't really have high dynamic range without one or both of the ends being higher and/or lower, in this case....brightness, along with maintaining some semblance of a good black floor, which this has with these settings and features engaged. You may have a display/projector that can do awesome black which is great for the low end of the scale when figuring dynamic range, but you also need to at least have the higher end available too if you want TRUE "High Dynamic Range". All you have to do is think of the audio world to know that. If your projector tops out at 100 nits or so, you don't have that, period. Sure, your video image may use dynamic tone mapping (compression is all), but all it is doing is showing a 100 nit sliding range of what the frame is that's being displayed, so if it's a dark scene with a bright light in it as I mentioned earlier, your sunlight/specular highlight will never be even close to where it actually should be, since it will never get above 100 nits, if that, based on your compression (tone mapping) algorithm. I am getting the full 100 nits image WITHOUT compression, and then using the nits above that (~175 nits range) for anything beyond the basic HDR movie image, i.e. - explosions, sunlight, flames, chrome flashes, lens flares, specular highlights, etc. This is exactly why HDR/DV Flat Panels with higher brightness capability look so much better than projectors, even the worse black level ones like LCD, which everyone should agree. This is what I was saying, which you failed to take into account.
This one is easy for you to try yourself if your friend still has his LK990 and you have a source for an HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro, AppleTV and/or UHD Bluray Player that can do Dolby Vision/LLDV such as the Sony X700 or X800M2, Oppo 203 or 205.
Remember, I said I am not comparing ONLY black levels and contrast here, because I agree the LK990 can't do what the JVCs can, and nor can just about any other projector for the home. I never said that was the case anyway. It just is NOT the "laugh out loud" funny you make it out to be, especially with this Dolby Vision setup. What I find funny is that I can replicate exactly what it looks like with the hazy, milky blacks as you and everyone else did. It's easy to do that when you don't really know video characteristics in depth, this machine, what to do and how to do it. Your first mistake is and always was, tone mapping HDR to SDR. If you'd just maintain HDR ST2084 PQ and implement what I've said from there and properly set it up, then you can alleviate that issue. Many others have as well.
What you and those "countless others" are failing to realize is that I too have seen, setup and calibrated numerous projectors myself, all the way back to the old CRT days starting with an old 480i Panasonic in 1996 with analog pots to do convergence, alignment and calibration up to and including the venerable Electrohome/Christie Marquee 9500LC, Barco 1208 and Sony G90. When did you start in this business, Dylan? Have you done those CRTs? Now I have seen all the digital techs. I also am in the Rental & Staging business, setting up small, medium and large venue projection systems for events of all sizes and quality levels, as well as doing my Home Theater business on the side. I was also the lead trainer and Commandant of a school teaching TV and Radio and in the broadcast radio and TV business as a TV Transmitter Engineer for an NBC affiliate during the transition from NTSC to ATSC broadcasting, so yes I think I know a thing or two about video, haha!
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So let me get this straight. You're telling me that adhering to st2084 "alleviates the issue" with milky blacks? Dave, you do realize we tried this and like I said in my previous post, doing this, and using your settings, didn't fix this in the slightest. We did notice your settings crushed the bottom part of the image though. It seems your solution to this problem was to just make the whole image darker overall. But that doesn't fix the poor contrast performance.
Getting a good image from any display shouldn't require the user to jump through hoops or happen to stumble upon a post by you telling them exactly how to set it up. By the way, dynamic tonemapping to SDR looked much better than your settings.
I can't do anymore tests with the LK990 as the owner returned it to BenQ a few days after we conducted our comparison. He ended up buying an RS2000.
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So let me get this straight. You're telling me that adhering to st2084 "alleviates the issue" with milky blacks? Dave, you do realize we tried this and like I said in my previous post, doing this, and using your settings, didn't fix this in the slightest. We did notice your settings crushed the bottom part of the image though. It seems your solution to this problem was to just make the whole image darker overall. But that doesn't fix the poor contrast performance....
You do realize this is a completely different animal than my prior settings, don't you? You should since I mentioned it numerous times already.
Yes, I am telling you that on THIS projector, using ST2084, along with the settings for Dolby Vision I now mentioned at least twice to you, is what helps alleviate this issue. It appears to allow/force the laser dimming modes (SmartEco and Automatic Power Control) to go lower in steps towards total laser cutoff. This same phenomena happens with the RS4500/Z1, as reported by @woofer and @Markmon and others, so I am not sure why you question it here? Yes, this is a dynamic contrast solution not a sequential or on/off one, but it is increased contrast nonetheless. In the end the eye doesn't much care which it is. It cares what it actually sees, and with this and the RS4500/Z1 and VW885/995ES (per Archibald), it is increased contrast.
As I have now mentioned more than once this is NOT the same thing as I had done previously, although it is based on many of the same concepts. This Dolby Vision LLDV version is much improved. In fact just last night I compared a standard HDR10 version to a Dolby Vision/LLDV version and in back and forth evaluation you could easily see the improved contrast and low level details, as well as how it handled the higher end visuals, such as scenes I mentioned before with very dark low level detail in the shadows and high peak sunlight rays coming through windows simultaneously. This is the very essence of what HDR is supposed to be. I also played the same scenes on the HT9060 LED based DLP by BenQ that I had here, marketed as their top Home Theater model, and the image is worse, more like what you've reported with much hazier, milkier blacks, etc. So this shows it is exclusive to this model and most likely others that use dimming systems with laser phosphor engines, such as the RS4500 and VW885ES as reported by @Archibald when using this LLDV solution.
.....Getting a good image from any display shouldn't require the user to jump through hoops or happen to stumble upon a post by you telling them exactly how to set it up. By the way, dynamic tonemapping to SDR looked much better than your settings....
You don't have to jump through any more hoops than you would using custom curves, a Lumagen Radiance Pro or especially something like MadVR! It is super simple really. Even easier than those solutions. All you need, as I have also mentioned more times than one, is an HDFury device, at minimum a Vertex or Integral2, but preferably a Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro, an LLDV capable source such as the Oppo 203/205, Sony X700/X800M2, AppleTV 4K to do all conversions. If you only want DV, then an nVidia Shield, Panasonic UB820/9000 or Pioneer LX500 will do.
You don't have to "stumble upon a post by me telling them exactly how to set it up". There are already two very large threads regarding this LLDV mod, on AVSF and AV Forums. The procedures to accomplish this is no different than when making custom curves was a thing as a way to make your HDR image quality better, and that was easily discovered and used by anyone who wanted to do it.
I am sure HDR->SDR tone mapping using expensive, state-of-the-art processing such as MadVR/Envy or Radiance Pro produce incredible results, as I have seen when I had a Radiance Pro, but at what cost? This solution is literally thousands of dollars less and can produce similar if not superior results, especially with native Dolby Vision sources, by the way which those solutions simply CANNOT do! Just ask @Claw and @Dominic Chan, who use this solution for all DV sources when available and then use MadVR or Radiance for native HDR10 and SDR upconversion. Sure, even if MadVR is ever so slightly better at HDR10 (non-DV) and SDR conversion, I ask again....at what cost? Some simply can't afford it and/or don't want the hassle of configuring MadVR and maintaining a PC for their HT. In my personal testing of a Panasonic UB820, Oppo 203 and Radiance Pro's HDR->SDR conversion, the LLDV solution easily came out on top. It wasn't even close really, at least on this LK990.
...I can't do anymore tests with the LK990 as the owner returned it to BenQ a few days after we conducted our comparison. He ended up buying an RS2000.
Excellent choice, but unfortunate if he liked all the other attributes the LK990 brought to the table, as you can clearly see in the image I attached a few posts up, because the low level details and black levels are much improved compared to the hamstrung image you apparently showed him.
I will leave you with these statements from SMPTE conferences (of which I have hosted many, along with IEEE ones) and Stacey Spears which sum the LK990 experience up nicely:
Stacey Spears recently on AVSF:
"...There is no perfect display on the market today. You have to pick the display who's issues bother you the least..."
SMPTE: (See attached pictures from...)
https://youtu.be/JLr0qsdKXRE (https://youtu.be/JLr0qsdKXRE)
*BTW, Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) is where the Professor of Optics, Visual Science and Material Science, also a former Director of the Institute of Optics was from that was consulted regarding the conversation you and I went round and round on concerning minimum lens quality needed for e-shift vs 4K, on which he agreed with my assessment on the subject, and who's thoughts on the matter you disregarded.
And a couple other good ones:
https://youtu.be/Fbi1VRrV3qg (https://youtu.be/Fbi1VRrV3qg)
https://youtu.be/X0Kldl5_cuY (https://youtu.be/X0Kldl5_cuY)
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I was expecting the "those were my old settings" argument. The problem is, you were making the same proclamations about amazing performance when those settings were posted. Why is everything so hyperbolic with you? The reason why some of us give you such a hard time is because of how dramatic you sound when talking about these projectors and the kind of performance you want others to think they have. If you were just a bit more realistic about things, I don't think you'd be getting so much flak.
How much contrast are you getting with the dynamic contrast system in play? Can you please measure for me with a single white pixel on screen? That would give us a better idea of what you're seeing. I'm guessing 3,000:1-4,000:1 dynamic at the max with a single white pixel on screen. The single white pixel test would show us the most help the system gives with real world content. The BenQ HT5550 I just got done reviewing has roughly the same native and probably similar dynamic contrast with actual content. It still can't hold a candle to some of the other projectors, including older DLP projectors, that have come through here. I have a Runco VX-11D that would probably benefit greatly with something like your DV hack, but it looks amazing when using madVR to tonemap and downscale to 1080p. I'm getting a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446+ to review and I'd like to see what that can do with the Runco as well. I'm sure it will breath new life into an older, but still amazing, 3 chip DLP projector not meant to display HDR. I also still have a VPL-VW995ES here and Sony UHD Blu-ray player. What settings should I use to see the benefits you're talking about?
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I was expecting the "those were my old settings" argument. The problem is, you were making the same proclamations about amazing performance when those settings were posted. Why is everything so hyperbolic with you? The reason why some of us give you such a hard time is because of how dramatic you sound when talking about these projectors and the kind of performance you want others to think they have. If you were just a bit more realistic about things, I don't think you'd be getting so much flak.....
And I was expecting you to say that back. This is no different than how anyone talks with each upgrade occurrence, no? Just look at our own fine wine connoisseur Craig Peer, who exclaims every upgrade, calibration, gear addition as the greatest he's seen, but as with him and everyone else, it's with the caveat of the additional unsaid words, such as...."so far", "to date", "up until now", etc. Which is not negating the fact that future advances will certainly make it even better, so the same words and expressions can be used over and over again. I remember thinking when I used progressive scan DVD over 480i DVD thinking it was the greatest, when that was the pinnacle and state of the art at the time. People also said the same thing when they used custom curves for HDR, now look at how they view that compared to DTM and Dolby Vision. It is all relative after all, no?
I am sorry if you and others don't like my passion for this. Just because I am, doesn't mean it isn't valid. Are you going to tell me sports superstars who are extremely passionate about their profession, like Ray Lewis, Brian Dawkins, Pete Rose, Charles Barkley, etc. aren't great athletes and knowledgeable in their fields, just because they exude that passion any time they do the work they simply love? Maybe it is you and others who are so hell bent on only the numbers and come across as dull and unable to break old paradigms who are not helping the cause here? It is usually the knowledgeable AND passionate ones that end up moving things forward in the end.
Seriously though, I don't like being patronized and made out to be some amatuer videot, when you haven't even seen this or done this yet. And before you say it again, I don't even believe you did with my old settings either, because you got your LK990 before I had mine or at least finalized any end result settings. I believe you used the settings for the LK970, not LK990, and it is extremely clear now that those settings definitely DID NOT cross over, just like they didn't from the Epson LS10000 (non-HDR capable) to the LS10500 (HDR Capable)!
.....How much contrast are you getting with the dynamic contrast system in play? Can you please measure for me with a single white pixel on screen? That would give us a better idea of what you're seeing. I'm guessing 3,000:1-4,000:1 dynamic at the max with a single white pixel on screen. The single white pixel test would show us the most help the system gives with real world content. The BenQ HT5550 I just got done reviewing has roughly the same native and probably similar dynamic contrast with actual content. It still can't hold a candle to some of the other projectors, including older DLP projectors, that have come through here. I have a Runco VX-11D that would probably benefit greatly with something like your DV hack, but it looks amazing when using madVR to tonemap and downscale to 1080p. I'm getting a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446+ to review and I'd like to see what that can do with the Runco as well. I'm sure it will breath new life into an older, but still amazing, 3 chip DLP projector not meant to display HDR. I also still have a VPL-VW995ES here and Sony UHD Blu-ray player. What settings should I use to see the benefits you're talking about?
When I measured previously, I do believe I got about 4500:1 dynamically, but it has also already been established by the likes of myself, @12GAGE, @TNAIK4, etc. that in real world video, the laser black levels go lower than what is shown on screen when inputting a black signal. 12GAGE I believe measured this, iirc. There was a lot of talk about this I believe in the LK970 thread on AVSF. It appears to be related to the LKs Automatic Power Control feature, which is also a dimming system, appearing similar to flat panel features like ABL, dynamic contrast/back light, etc. 12GAGE used a power meter and saw fluctuations that would point to this, like I think with active video (very low APL) he got lower readings than with a black image pattern, or some such. I would have to ask him again or research it again to get the entire gist of what he did to help explain the visible phenomenon.
I just literally received a new i1Pro2 spectro, which I know isn't the best for low level stuff, but it's all the funds I have right now with this pandemic and my health issues. I hope to get a new i1 Display Pro colorimeter when I can as well. My main issue has been trying to find a good test pattern generator source since I had to return the Six-G generator that was loaned to me and I can of course no longer use the ones I borrowed and used at work when doing my Rental & Staging gigs since that's all shut down. I tried using MobileForge through an HDFury, but got strange results that I can't trust. Is there a specific pattern on Spears & Munsil UHD disc or R. Masciola's UHD or DV patterns you'd like me to try this on manually? These seem to be my only stable HDR/DV source patterns for now, at least until I can return to the mainland and get new gear to start my side gig calibrating again.
I already told you that I had an HT9060 here and it reacted very similar to what you describe and how I believe the HT5550 does as well. It had far worse black levels and contrast issues which resulted in the hazy, milky blacks you're trying to impart on the LK990. I played the exact same scenes from various sources on both and could see the differences clearly. As I have said numerous times, it is something to do with the laser phosphor system allowing it to dim further and more dynamically/faster or something. The effect seems to be spoken of with other laser models as well, such as the RS4500/Z1 (@Woofer, @Markmon, etc.) and even on the Optoma UHZ65 (@Aztar).
As for the VW995ES, I believe you just setup the normal things to get the LLDV mod working and with a Sony UHD Bluray you just force the DV option in the menus. Do you have a later model HDFury device? @Archibald seems to like the 10,000 nit option and then lowering the Contrast (HDR) and brightness setting appropriately to avoid any white clipping and black crush, if any. I think he mentioned starting with something equivalent to a 4,000 nit curve in the pj, and going from there. I would certainly ask him, since he seems to be the expert with the LLDV mod on the Sonys.
You do still seem not to be taking into account the final things I posted in my last post here, about how one measurement can't tell you the whole story and that in the end, on top of all the science, there also needs to be some artistic intent and what the overall image looks like. I have far too many times gotten the numbers almost perfect and "just right" in my calibration and testing, only to see a less than optimal image on screen. WRGB OLEDs come to mind due to their white pixels being mixed in with the RGB, where you have to lower Y luminance so much to get full 3D color luminance measured properly. Javs saw this and complained that he had to turn off Brilliant Color, which I disagree with when done properly in the end. These projectors were engineered from the ground up, taking this into account, as the Delta/Vivitek and Optoma engineers told me. This is the same with the WRGB OLEDs. The LK990 with it's RGBY (Y being derived from the phosphor wheel, excited by the blue lasers) imparts similar issues, as you, me, Kris and Javs have all noted when measuring the LKs.
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Dave, I don't know that I would use Aztar35 for support on DLP contrast. Aztar35 got rid of the 9060 and had this to say about it on 5/15/2020.
"The 9060 doesn't have an iris you can clamp down. Outstanding lens with a nice and steady, even image from its LED light source, great colors, but its 3D and its motion speed left me wanting. Another member here did say his use of a lens significantly improved its 3D performance, however.
Its contrast with more and more content I tried did prove difficult for my own tastes later on."
Post #43 in the "Question About Contrast Ratio" thread on AVSF. And Markmon already has said repeatedly the contrast difference between the 4500 and the LK970 with your settings was laughable in dark scenes like space shots. If you don't believe me, I can dig up quotes. Everybody that has viewed an LK side by side with an RS2000 has come to the same conclusion. You argue against that conclusion and yet you have not compared the two side by side, much less side by side in a good blacked out room.
I wish these DLP's did provide that performance, I could have saved a lot of money buying one over my RS3000.
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Dave, I don't know that I would use Aztar35 for support on DLP contrast. Aztar35 got rid of the 9060 and had this to say about it on 5/15/2020.
"The 9060 doesn't have an iris you can clamp down. Outstanding lens with a nice and steady, even image from its LED light source, great colors, but its 3D and its motion speed left me wanting. Another member here did say his use of a lens significantly improved its 3D performance, however.
Its contrast with more and more content I tried did prove difficult for my own tastes later on.".......
@Aztar35 used and said those words when comparing and using a BenQ HT9060 which is LED based, NOT an LK990 (or even a 970 for that matter!) which use laser phosphor with two modes of dynamic dimming, Automatic Power Control and SmartEco, to full blackout. These are two very completely different animals, as I have said countless times here even recently.
Your post just goes to show you guys actually don't take the time to read what I write, as I have said numerous times. Thanks for proving my points. It also shows that all you guys ever do is copy and paste the same old dull and boring answers based on old stereotype SDR DLP performace, without ever actually keeping updated or trying any new things, for years apparently. :-\
Let me reiterate for those that didn't bother to read these posts I made, and not at all that long ago either!........
...but if you saw the LK990 set to HDR Brightness of -2, color at ~7 and Color Enhancement at ~16, paired with an HDFury Vertex2 doing the LLDV/Dolby Vision tweak with a DV String set to Max Luminance (nits) of 10,000 nits then you certainly would be saying "Wow"! ...
The laser levels in this projector are able to be lowered based on what is input, using the unit's Automatic Power Control and SmartEco features, similar to what is reported with the much more expensive JVC RS4500, and why many prefer its black levels and shadow details over the reportedly better RS3000 (@markmon for example). When you input and present a 10,000 nit Dolby Vision custom string using the HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro with a BT2020 color gamut along with setting the LK990 to an HDR Brightness setting of -2, color at around 7, Brilliant Color ON and Color Enhancement to about 16. This combo makes this happen along with great color tracking along the color gamut sweeps, unlike when you use default color at 50 and Color Enhancement OFF and Brilliant Color ON (as noted previously by me, you, @Javs, etc.)......
.....And yes, I do agree the one area it can't compete totally is native on/off contrast and a little color saturation, and have always said that. But I have also always said all the other attributes this presents are far superior, and I still completely stand by that. I can all but guarantee anyone else who sees what I see here with Dolby Vision would feel the exact same way too.
Your stubbornness to not want to really dig deep and understand this projector and what it can do never ceases to amaze me. I don't understand why. Who does it hurt? You all just keep living in the SDR past, with old thoughts and paradigms that simply don't apply here......
.....You also must have missed where I said with the Dolby Vision String settings at 10,000 nits peak along with the HDR Brightness on the LK990 set at -2, it allows/forces the lasers to be able to dim to a much lower level due to its built in Automatic Power Control and SmartEco dynamic dimming systems (which seem to work in tandem), a la' the RS4500/Z1. Low ADL scenes inside castles, caves, etc. in Game of Thrones look great, especially when you have the brightness to spare which gives these scenes that also have a window and sunlight shining in incredibly high dynamic range from super low level detail through high specular sunlight highlights!......
.....Remember, I said I am not comparing ONLY black levels and contrast here, because I agree the LK990 can't do what the JVCs can, and nor can just about any other projector for the home. I never said that was the case anyway. It just is NOT the "laugh out loud" funny you make it out to be, especially with this Dolby Vision setup. What I find funny is that I can replicate exactly what it looks like with the hazy, milky blacks as you and everyone else did. It's easy to do that when you don't really know video characteristics in depth, this machine, what to do and how to do it. Your first mistake is and always was, tone mapping HDR to SDR. If you'd just maintain HDR ST2084 PQ and implement what I've said from there and properly set it up, then you can alleviate that issue. Many others have as well.....
You do realize this is a completely different animal than my prior settings, don't you? You should since I mentioned it numerous times already.
Yes, I am telling you that on THIS projector, using ST2084, along with the settings for Dolby Vision I now mentioned at least twice to you, is what helps alleviate this issue. It appears to allow/force the laser dimming modes (SmartEco and Automatic Power Control) to go lower in steps towards total laser cutoff. This same phenomena happens with the RS4500/Z1, as reported by @woofer and @Markmon and others, so I am not sure why you question it here? Yes, this is a dynamic contrast solution not a sequential or on/off one, but it is increased contrast nonetheless. In the end the eye doesn't much care which it is. It cares what it actually sees, and with this and the RS4500/Z1 and VW885/995ES (per Archibald), it is increased contrast.
As I have now mentioned more than once this is NOT the same thing as I had done previously, although it is based on many of the same concepts. This Dolby Vision LLDV version is much improved. In fact just last night I compared a standard HDR10 version to a Dolby Vision/LLDV version and in back and forth evaluation you could easily see the improved contrast and low level details, as well as how it handled the higher end visuals, such as scenes I mentioned before with very dark low level detail in the shadows and high peak sunlight rays coming through windows simultaneously. This is the very essence of what HDR is supposed to be. I also played the same scenes on the HT9060 LED based DLP by BenQ that I had here, marketed as their top Home Theater model, and the image is worse, more like what you've reported with much hazier, milkier blacks, etc. So this shows it is exclusive to this model and most likely others that use dimming systems with laser phosphor engines, such as the RS4500 and VW885ES as reported by @Archibald when using this LLDV solution.....
......Excellent choice, but unfortunate if he liked all the other attributes the LK990 brought to the table, as you can clearly see in the image I attached a few posts up, because the low level details and black levels are much improved compared to the hamstrung image you apparently showed him.
I will leave you with these statements from SMPTE conferences (of which I have hosted many, along with IEEE ones) and Stacey Spears which sum the LK990 experience up nicely:
Stacey Spears recently on AVSF:
"...There is no perfect display on the market today. You have to pick the display who's issues bother you the least..."
SMPTE: (See attached pictures from...)
https://youtu.be/JLr0qsdKXRE (https://youtu.be/JLr0qsdKXRE)
And a couple other good ones:
https://youtu.be/Fbi1VRrV3qg (https://youtu.be/Fbi1VRrV3qg)
https://youtu.be/X0Kldl5_cuY (https://youtu.be/X0Kldl5_cuY)
....Seriously though, I don't like being patronized and made out to be some amatuer videot, when you haven't even seen this or done this yet. And before you say it again, I don't even believe you did with my old settings either, because you got your LK990 before I had mine or at least finalized any end result settings. I believe you used the settings for the LK970, not LK990, and it is extremely clear now that those settings definitely DID NOT cross over, just like they didn't from the Epson LS10000 (non-HDR capable) to the LS10500 (HDR Capable)!
When I measured previously, I do believe I got about 4500:1 dynamically, but it has also already been established by the likes of myself, @12GAGE, @TNAIK4, etc. that in real world video, the laser black levels go lower than what is shown on screen when inputting a black signal. 12GAGE I believe measured this, iirc. There was a lot of talk about this I believe in the LK970 thread on AVSF. It appears to be related to the LKs Automatic Power Control feature, which is also a dimming system, appearing similar to flat panel features like ABL, dynamic contrast/back light, etc. 12GAGE used a power meter and saw fluctuations that would point to this, like I think with active video (very low APL) he got lower readings than with a black image pattern, or some such. I would have to ask him again or research it again to get the entire gist of what he did to help explain the visible phenomenon.
I already told you that I had an HT9060 here and it reacted very similar to what you describe and how I believe the HT5550 does as well. It had far worse black levels and contrast issues which resulted in the hazy, milky blacks you're trying to impart on the LK990. I played the exact same scenes from various sources on both and could see the differences clearly. As I have said numerous times, it is something to do with the laser phosphor system allowing it to dim further and more dynamically/faster or something. The effect seems to be spoken of with other laser models as well, such as the RS4500/Z1 (@Woofer, @Markmon, etc.) and even on the Optoma UHZ65 (@Aztar)......
......As for the VW995ES, I believe you just setup the normal things to get the LLDV mod working and with a Sony UHD Bluray you just force the DV option in the menus. Do you have a later model HDFury device? @Archibald seems to like the 10,000 nit option and then lowering the Contrast (HDR) and brightness setting appropriately to avoid any white clipping and black crush, if any. I think he mentioned starting with something equivalent to a 4,000 nit curve in the pj, and going from there. I would certainly ask him, since he seems to be the expert with the LLDV mod on the Sonys.
You do still seem not to be taking into account the final things I posted in my last post here, about how one measurement can't tell you the whole story and that in the end, on top of all the science, there also needs to be some artistic intent and what the overall image looks like. I have far too many times gotten the numbers almost perfect and "just right" in my calibration and testing, only to see a less than optimal image on screen. WRGB OLEDs come to mind due to their white pixels being mixed in with the RGB, where you have to lower Y luminance so much to get full 3D color luminance measured properly. Javs saw this and complained that he had to turn off Brilliant Color, which I disagree with when done properly in the end. These projectors were engineered from the ground up, taking this into account, as the Delta/Vivitek and Optoma engineers told me. This is the same with the WRGB OLEDs. The LK990 with it's RGBY (Y being derived from the phosphor wheel, excited by the blue lasers) imparts similar issues, as you, me, Kris and Javs have all noted when measuring the LKs.
Does that all ring a bell now, where I clearly stated what is happening with the lasers and how much it is different than lamp or LED based DLPs, such as the BenQ HT9060 (which I said I had here concurrently with the LK990), HT5550, W5700, Optoma UHD60/65, etc.? And also how much different it is now when using the new LLDV Dolby Vision mod that I discovered and created?
......Post #43 in the "Question About Contrast Ratio" thread on AVSF. And Markmon already has said repeatedly the contrast difference between the 4500 and the LK970 with your settings was laughable in dark scenes like space shots. If you don't believe me, I can dig up quotes. Everybody that has viewed an LK side by side with an RS2000 has come to the same conclusion. You argue against that conclusion and yet you have not compared the two side by side, much less side by side in a good blacked out room.
I wish these DLP's did provide that performance, I could have saved a lot of money buying one over my RS3000.
You can dig up all the quotes you want, but you are posting about the older LK970, which has neither HDR nor SmartEco Dynamic Laser Dimming support, not the LK990 which has both upgraded features and also which with I am discussing what it does and how it looks with Dolby Vision LLDV native and upconverted signals being displayed. So what you are posting is totally moot. How exactly do you know what room I have BTW? While it isn't a total bat cave, I do have black curtains I pull around the sides and front and it gets virtually pitch black when watching if I want, especially at night.
I will also reiterate these posts again for you............
.....And yes, I do agree the one area it can't compete totally is native on/off contrast and a little color saturation, and have always said that. But I have also always said all the other attributes this presents are far superior, and I still completely stand by that. I can all but guarantee anyone else who sees what I see here with Dolby Vision would feel the exact same way too....
.....Remember, I said I am not comparing ONLY black levels and contrast here, because I agree the LK990 can't do what the JVCs can, and nor can just about any other projector for the home. I never said that was the case anyway. It just is NOT the "laugh out loud" funny you make it out to be, especially with this Dolby Vision setup. What I find funny is that I can replicate exactly what it looks like with the hazy, milky blacks as you and everyone else did. It's easy to do that when you don't really know video characteristics in depth, this machine, what to do and how to do it....
As I have now mentioned more than once this is NOT the same thing as I had done previously, although it is based on many of the same concepts. This Dolby Vision LLDV version is much improved. In fact just last night I compared a standard HDR10 version to a Dolby Vision/LLDV version and in back and forth evaluation you could easily see the improved contrast and low level details,...
......Excellent choice, but unfortunate if he liked all the other attributes the LK990 brought to the table, as you can clearly see in the image I attached a few posts up, because the low level details and black levels are much improved compared to the hamstrung image you apparently showed him.
Stacey Spears recently on AVSF:
"...There is no perfect display on the market today. You have to pick the display who's issues bother you the least..."
You do still seem not to be taking into account the final things I posted in my last post here, about how one measurement can't tell you the whole story and that in the end, on top of all the science, there also needs to be some artistic intent and what the overall image looks like.
See attached....again.
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I posted this elsewhere, but it’s relevant here as well.......
I’ve seen this video awhile ago, before I discovered this Dolby Vision hack for any HDR display, but I decided to watch it again to see if it became more relevant to what I’m doing now.
To put it simply, this long and detailed video comparison between Dolby Vision and HDR10 by Vincent Teo is pretty much spot on with EXACTLY the differences I see here when I compare my old HDR10 settings to these new LLDV/DolbyVision ones on my LK990.
I think anyone wanting to know what this LLDV mod will give you if you decide to partake in this adventure should simply watch this video. It’s that’s simple. It is well worth the 45 minute time investment. Enjoy!
I’ve seen this video awhile ago, before I discovered this Dolby Vision hack for any HDR display, but I decided to watch it again to see if it became more relevant to what I’m doing now.
To put it simply, this long and detailed video comparison between Dolby Vision and HDR10 by Vincent Teo is pretty much spot on with EXACTLY the differences I see here when I compare my old HDR10 settings to these new LLDV/DolbyVision ones on my LK990.
I think anyone wanting to know what this LLDV mod will give you if you decide to partake in this adventure should simply watch this video. It’s that’s simple. It is well worth the 45 minute time investment. Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/voePq29-U6M
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The technology on all of these E-shift DLP's is the same technology and all of them have very limited native contrast near 1,000:1. When compared side by side with a high contrast projector, that glaring weakness really stands out, when you look at darker scenes.
As for you bringing up the 4500 having laser dimming, the 4500 starts off with a native that is 5 to 10 times greater than these DLP's. If the 4500 only had around 1,000:1 native, I would have a problem recommending it also.
If you are going to debate this, debate the subject, not attack the poster. Not doing so will get your posts deleted.
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No one is arguing with you about the benefits that DV brings to the table. I'm just apprehensive about how it looks through this specific projector.
You can go on and on about how you have it setup and how I haven't personally seen your new settings, but I've seen enough projectors to know how the image will look, roughly speaking, given the objective performance the LK990 offers. And while I didn't plug your new settings into the LK990 when I had the opportunity to play with one, I can guarantee you that no amount of fiddling with settings is going to make enough of a difference to totally transform how this projector looks. To put it simply, you cannot fix the atrocious contrast performance with the setting options in the menu.
In the year 2020, against other projectors around its price, the LK990 falls behind dramatically in terms of dynamic range. So, again, you can play around with the image between black and white all you want, but the level of black the LK990 offers is not even remotely competitive and this limits how this projector can compete. Before you go on about how I don't understand what you're doing, trust me, I do. I've played around with straight HDR going into projectors quite a bit.
Dave, what if we were to send DV to a Sony or JVC projector and find a comparable set of image settings that you've applied to the LK990? Why not do this instead so you can get the native 4K image and higher contrast that these other projectors offer on top of DV? Why waste time with the LK990?
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The technology on all of these E-shift DLP's is the same technology and all of them have very limited native contrast near 1,000:1. When compared side by side with a high contrast projector, that glaring weakness really stands out, when you look at darker scenes.
As for you bringing up the 4500 having laser dimming, the 4500 starts off with a native that is 5 to 10 times greater than these DLP's. If the 4500 only had around 1,000:1 native, I would have a problem recommending it also.
If you are going to debate this, debate the subject, not attack the poster. Not doing so will get your posts deleted.
Sorry, I didn't feel as though I was attacking anyone. I was just making rebuttal posts and pointing out the fact that the replies indicate that the posts themselves weren't being read or understood. If anyone should feel attacked I would think it would be me, considering the condescension being applied in everyone's posts towards me, like I am some sort of clown (someone's words exactly, BTW, so who was the one being attacked?) or fool who doesn't know what he's doing, when in fact since neither of you have done this or appear willing to do so, I would say the proverbial shoe is on the other foot at this point in time.
I already said, including in the posts I just re-posted yesterday, that it never was or is about its native contrast and the comparison to projectors like the RS4500, etc. I said it was using the same "concept", wherein the lasers are able to dim further in steps towards black when doing this, greatly helping the perception of blacks, just as those laser projectors like the RS4500 do. As I said, this concept has been stated by Woofer and Markmon many, many times in clarification when comparing black levels and contrast on projectors like the RS4500 vs RS3000. I am sure you have seen these comments, yet I didn't see this reaction from you or anyone to them when they said essentially the same things as I am. Plus, they weren't even using or discussing this new Dolby Vision mod, which helps it even more, although with their use of DTM I am sure it is similar.
You just keep doing what I said too. Just basically copying and pasting your standard DLP answer every time. Why not open your mind and start thinking out of the box with some new paradigms?
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No one is arguing with you about the benefits that DV brings to the table. I'm just apprehensive about how it looks through this specific projector....
You shouldn't be. It is incredible. But that's not the only thing this is all about.
...You can go on and on about how you have it setup and how I haven't personally seen your new settings, but I've seen enough projectors to know how the image will look, roughly speaking, given the objective performance the LK990 offers. And while I didn't plug your new settings into the LK990 when I had the opportunity to play with one, I can guarantee you that no amount of fiddling with settings is going to make enough of a difference to totally transform how this projector looks. To put it simply, you cannot fix the atrocious contrast performance with the setting options in the menu.
In the year 2020, against other projectors around its price, the LK990 falls behind dramatically in terms of dynamic range. So, again, you can play around with the image between black and white all you want, but the level of black the LK990 offers is not even remotely competitive and this limits how this projector can compete. Before you go on about how I don't understand what you're doing, trust me, I do. I've played around with straight HDR going into projectors quite a bit....
Your guarantee would be incorrect. To the contrary, you have no idea what it is I have done, and your replies show this to be the case.
Again, for the umpteenth time, this is not about black levels and contrast! I have clearly stated that I agree those JVCs, Sonys and even Epsons are better at this one thing and also some color gamut coverage. It is more about everything else this brings to the table which far outweigh that one or two things that those projectors do better.
....Dave, what if we were to send DV to a Sony or JVC projector and find a comparable set of image settings that you've applied to the LK990? Why not do this instead so you can get the native 4K image and higher contrast that these other projectors offer on top of DV? Why waste time with the LK990?
That is a very easy answer, which I have answered already as well......sharpness, detail, depth of image, added brightness for specular highlight reproduction as is seen on HDR/DV flat panels, and many other attributes I can't think of right now. This and all the other posts sum it up for me......
...While I agree, you can't really have high dynamic range without one or both of the ends being higher and/or lower, in this case....brightness, along with maintaining some semblance of a good black floor, which this has with these settings and features engaged. You may have a display/projector that can do awesome black which is great for the low end of the scale when figuring dynamic range, but you also need to at least have the higher end available too if you want TRUE "High Dynamic Range". All you have to do is think of the audio world to know that. If your projector tops out at 100 nits or so, you don't have that, period. Sure, your video image may use dynamic tone mapping (compression is all), but all it is doing is showing a 100 nit sliding range of what the frame is that's being displayed, so if it's a dark scene with a bright light in it as I mentioned earlier, your sunlight/specular highlight will never be even close to where it actually should be, since it will never get above 100 nits, if that, based on your compression (tone mapping) algorithm. I am getting the full 100 nits image WITHOUT compression, and then using the nits above that (~175 nits range) for anything beyond the basic HDR movie image, i.e. - explosions, sunlight, flames, chrome flashes, lens flares, specular highlights, etc. This is exactly why HDR/DV Flat Panels with higher brightness capability look so much better than projectors, even the worse black level ones like LCD, which everyone should agree....
Black levels/contrast are simply not the only factors involved when judging what a great image is. Once again, see attached.....
I can see once again I won't get any open mindedness and willingness to think beyond preconceived notions by the ones who posted replies to me, so I guess I am done here once again. I was hoping to have open discussions on these concepts with the replies being the subject with point-counterpoint type discussions without blind responses not even in specific response to the points I was actually making, but alas this is not to be again.
I am sure you'll get the last word in, so enjoy your "victory", even if it's to the detriment of those who mistakenly believe it.
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In really good rooms with a projector that has good dynamic range, HDR with 30FL and good dynamic tone mapping looks very good, increasing the FL does not show a marked improvement in HDR performance. At least I could not see it with mid 40's FL. Craig and many others have said the same thing. While I do not see a marked improvement at 45FL, I certainly do see the loss of contrast on the low end. I have seen dozens of these DLP's and all of them (except the Eclipse) have this problem and no settings can change this. In a good room it stands out like a sore thumb.
Sharpness is very good, but the contrast, :( I had an E-shift DLP here recently for several weeks, looked good except for the dark scenes. There is no getting around this and maybe if you ever compared, you would see what we are talking about. Dylan and his group saw this problem, kris and his group saw this problem and Markmon and his group also saw this problem.
So rather than keep telling us we have not seen the LK with your latest settings, though you made the same claims with your last settings and those have been compared, maybe you should try to see what all the people that have compared see and compare the two yourself.
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Whatever you say, Mike. Still harping on contrast and blacks alone. Have fun in your walled garden.
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You talk like contrast is nothing. You know that ISF does not share that opinion.
Every year, after CEDIA someone always asks what was the best looking projector at CEDIA. For the last several years the answer has been an LCOS projector. CEDIA has DLP's there that are brighter, higher contrast and if cost is any indicator, better lenses and yet every year, they do not get the nod for best image at the show. Where DLP does get the nod is in light output.
The LK990 throws a sharp image, but LCOS is pretty good in that area also. Take a look here where Projector Central tested resolution of the RS2000 to the BenQ HT9060.https://www.projectorcentral.com/Projector-Resolution-Shootout-Part-2.htm (https://www.projectorcentral.com/Projector-Resolution-Shootout-Part-2.htm)
The LK990 may be sharper than the HT9060, but at this point we are splitting hairs, since everyone readily admits the HT9060 is very sharp. So you are trying to use light output as the big differentiator and I am using contrast. I believe ISF is on my side.
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Kris Deering really dialed back the brightness on my RS4500, but improved the shadow detail and darker scenes substantially. Even guests remarked how it looked much better. Of course the Lumagen's dynamic tone mapping helps substantially. At least on my screen, I don't need the shear brightness anymore.
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Another thing worth noting is that some of these dynamic tonemapping solutions have a highlight recovery feature. What this does is restore detail within the image that would normally be lost to clipping if just a static tone map were used so you don't lose out on picture information that's supposed to be present in the image. Honestly, I don't see too many drawbacks to dynamic tonemapping on projectors.
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Kris Deering really dialed back the brightness on my RS4500, but improved the shadow detail and darker scenes substantially. Even guests remarked how it looked much better. Of course the Lumagen's dynamic tone mapping helps substantially. At least on my screen, I don't need the shear brightness anymore.
(https://i.imgur.com/Z46CvhN.jpg)
Just took possession of a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446+. Really looking forward to checking out its scaling and DTM capabilities.
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(https://i.imgur.com/Z46CvhN.jpg)
Just took possession of a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446+. Really looking forward to checking out its scaling and DTM capabilities.
Excellent. Take your time getting familiar with the setup. And make sure to download the latest firmware if it doesn't have it already !
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(https://i.imgur.com/Z46CvhN.jpg)
Just took possession of a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446+. Really looking forward to checking out its scaling and DTM capabilities.
Dylan,
Do you run madVR ?
If so , will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the 2 solutions.
I have a 4242 Radiance that i use to compare to madVR..
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Dylan,
Do you run madVR ?
If so , will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the 2 solutions.
I have a 4242 Radiance that i use to compare to madVR..
Is that all you use it for, or do you actually watch stuff with the Radiance Pro. ? ::)8)
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Dylan,
Do you run madVR ?
If so , will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the 2 solutions.
I have a 4242 Radiance that i use to compare to madVR..
Yes, purpose built HTPC with an RTX2070 graphics card. It's a holiday weekend here and I have some plans with family, so I won't be able to set up the Lumagen 100% until next week.
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Excellent. Take your time getting familiar with the setup. And make sure to download the latest firmware if it doesn't have it already !
It came loaded with a very recent firmware, but I plan on installing the latest.
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Yes, purpose built HTPC with an RTX2070 graphics card. It's a holiday weekend here and I have some plans with family, so I won't be able to set up the Lumagen 100% until next week.
Great.... very interested to hear your thoughts .
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You talk like contrast is nothing. You know that ISF does not share that opinion.
Every year, after CEDIA someone always asks what was the best looking projector at CEDIA. For the last several years the answer has been an LCOS projector. CEDIA has DLP's there that are brighter, higher contrast and if cost is any indicator, better lenses and yet every year, they do not get the nod for best image at the show. Where DLP does get the nod is in light output.
The LK990 throws a sharp image, but LCOS is pretty good in that area also. Take a look here where Projector Central tested resolution of the RS2000 to the BenQ HT9060.https://www.projectorcentral.com/Projector-Resolution-Shootout-Part-2.htm (https://www.projectorcentral.com/Projector-Resolution-Shootout-Part-2.htm)
The LK990 may be sharper than the HT9060, but at this point we are splitting hairs, since everyone readily admits the HT9060 is very sharp. So you are trying to use light output as the big differentiator and I am using contrast. I believe ISF is on my side.
If you mention the HT9060 with regards to comparing what I am saying and doing one more time, I think I am going to scream, haha! ;);D
The LK990 is so much more than just more sharpness than the HT9060! The black levels and contrast were clearly better and more evident.
"Light Output" is certainly not the only differentiator between them or the other techs. I just watched Aquaman again last night using my 10,000 nit Max Luminance (nits) Dolby Vision Data Block string, Min Luminance .0005, BT2020 gamut and the low APL scenes were astonishing to see, like the scene where he and his dad just leave the bar and are driving home when the tidal wave hits. The dark images were just incredible, with absolutely no hint of the DLP milky haze people think would be there. Even the colors popped with such low luminance, which is one of the standout things you'll notice with this. All of the underwater scenes, especially the final battle scenes were extraordinary too!
So answer me this question......has anyone anywhere at CEDIA, CES, INFOCOMM, IFA, etc. EVER ONCE done what I am doing on a BenQ LK990 or other possible equivalent laser phosphor or RGB laser DLP using a Max Luminance 10,000 nit Dolby Vision Data Block Custom String, .0005 nit min luminance custom string, using a BT2020 gamut DV setting with a tone mapping HDR Brightness signal curve of -2, contrast 48-50, brightness 46, wherein the first 100 nits of the signal being projected is essentially tone map (compression) free, which also then allows for the remainder of the nits available (~75-100 nits) to be used for specular highlights, which is apparently the only part of the signal now that needs compression/tone mapping when done in this manner? This results in spectacular images, as I see here every single day, whether everyone else's uninformed, untried and untested opinion says it does or not.
All it takes is someone else with a BenQ LK990, Sony X800M2, HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro with all these settings which are super easy to replicate (as compared to my prior HV settings, which are a completely different concept) and put in. Good initial tests would be using Aquaman as I just mentioned and Mortal Engines, among many other Dolby Vision titles.
@woofer, I see you posting here. Does your friend still have the LK990, or was that an LK970 or am I mistaken?
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Kris Deering really dialed back the brightness on my RS4500, but improved the shadow detail and darker scenes substantially. Even guests remarked how it looked much better. Of course the Lumagen's dynamic tone mapping helps substantially. At least on my screen, I don't need the shear brightness anymore.
So you'd prefer to do the same on your HDR flat panels as well, which have the headroom to not have to do that so much and are across the board agreed upon are better at HDR than projectors due to their limited lumen capabilities, among other things?
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Another thing worth noting is that some of these dynamic tonemapping solutions have a highlight recovery feature. What this does is restore detail within the image that would normally be lost to clipping if just a static tone map were used so you don't lose out on picture information that's supposed to be present in the image. Honestly, I don't see too many drawbacks to dynamic tonemapping on projectors.
There doesn't appear to be a need for highlight recovering how I do it apparently, since I can set it to see all the highlights and even shadow details with great clarity and no clipping or crushing. Maybe if you had more headroom available, all this tone mapping/compression wouldn't be as needed?
BTW, LLDV/Dolby Vision isn't using static tone mapping, if that's what you were referring to towards me?
Why is there so much off topic discussion of things like the Radiance Pro in this LK990 thread, when none of the people discussing it are using it on an LK990, or even an LK970 for that matter?
Happy Memorial Day everyone! Please don't forget who this holiday is for, all those veteran heroes who paid the ultimate sacrifice to keep us all free!
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So you'd prefer to do the same on your HDR flat panels as well, which have the headroom to not have to do that so much and are across the board agreed upon are better at HDR than projectors due to their limited lumen capabilities, among other things?
I pretty much hate watching movies on TV's - flat panels or otherwise. I've been watching a projector of one sort or another for 17 years. At Cedia I just walk on by the flat panels - all of them. I don't like the look of watching a piece of glass. Too small too. So no - I have no HDR flat panel. Just a 1080p model for watching the news. That I bought at CostCo.
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There doesn't appear to be a need for highlight recovering how I do it apparently, since I can set it to see all the highlights and even shadow details with great clarity and no clipping or crushing. Maybe if you had more headroom available, all this tone mapping/compression wouldn't be as needed?
BTW, LLDV/Dolby Vision isn't using static tone mapping, if that's what you were referring to towards me?
Why is there so much off topic discussion of things like the Radiance Pro in this LK990 thread, when none of the people discussing it are using it on an LK990, or even an LK970 for that matter?
Happy Memorial Day everyone! Please don't forget who this holiday is for, all those veteran heroes who paid the ultimate sacrifice to keep us all free!
No, I wasn't referring to your LLDV hack as a static tonemap. However, I did misspeak. Highlights are recovered from compression, not clipping.
As far as the Lumagen goes, I could ask you the same question. Why are you in an LK990 thread talking about an HDFury product? People use all kinds of video processors and players for their display devices. The Lumagen is one of them.
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I pretty much hate watching movies on TV's - flat panels or otherwise. I've been watching a projector of one sort or another for 17 years. At Cedia I just walk on by the flat panels - all of them. I don't like the look of watching a piece of glass. Too small too. So no - I have no HDR flat panel. Just a 1080p model for watching the news. That I bought at CostCo.
Well that’s not really where I was going with it, but ok.
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No, I wasn't referring to your LLDV hack as a static tonemap. However, I did misspeak. Highlights are recovered from compression, not clipping.
As far as the Lumagen goes, I could ask you the same question. Why are you in an LK990 thread talking about an HDFury product? People use all kinds of video processors and players for their display devices. The Lumagen is one of them.
The difference is, I‘m using an HDFury on an actual LK990 and discussing the benefits of such a pairing. You’re not using a Lumagen on an LK990, the subject of this thread.
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@woofer, I see you posting here. Does your friend still have the LK990, or was that an LK970 or am I mistaken?
Dave , It was the LK970 i had that i sold to a friend..
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If you mention the HT9060 with regards to comparing what I am saying and doing one more time, I think I am going to scream, haha! ;);D
The LK990 is so much more than just more sharpness than the HT9060! The black levels and contrast were clearly better and more evident.
"Light Output" is certainly not the only differentiator between them or the other techs. I just watched Aquaman again last night using my 10,000 nit Max Luminance (nits) Dolby Vision Data Block string, Min Luminance .0005, BT2020 gamut and the low APL scenes were astonishing to see, like the scene where he and his dad just leave the bar and are driving home when the tidal wave hits. The dark images were just incredible, with absolutely no hint of the DLP milky haze people think would be there. Even the colors popped with such low luminance, which is one of the standout things you'll notice with this. All of the underwater scenes, especially the final battle scenes were extraordinary too!
So answer me this question......has anyone anywhere at CEDIA, CES, INFOCOMM, IFA, etc. EVER ONCE done what I am doing on a BenQ LK990 or other possible equivalent laser phosphor or RGB laser DLP using a Max Luminance 10,000 nit Dolby Vision Data Block Custom String, .0005 nit min luminance custom string, using a BT2020 gamut DV setting with a tone mapping HDR Brightness signal curve of -2, contrast 48-50, brightness 46, wherein the first 100 nits of the signal being projected is essentially tone map (compression) free, which also then allows for the remainder of the nits available (~75-100 nits) to be used for specular highlights, which is apparently the only part of the signal now that needs compression/tone mapping when done in this manner? This results in spectacular images, as I see here every single day, whether everyone else's uninformed, untried and untested opinion says it does or not.
All it takes is someone else with a BenQ LK990, Sony X800M2, HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro with all these settings which are super easy to replicate (as compared to my prior HV settings, which are a completely different concept) and put in. Good initial tests would be using Aquaman as I just mentioned and Mortal Engines, among many other Dolby Vision titles.
@woofer, I see you posting here. Does your friend still have the LK990, or was that an LK970 or am I mistaken?
Except that you gave your earlier settings the same hype and several people compared your earlier settings against a high native contrast projector and every single one of them came to the same conclusion.
You keep saying everyone is wrong and you are right and yet you have never made the comparison.
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Honestly, it was no contest as to which threw the better image all around. I have serious reservations that DV into the LK990 would make enough of a difference to dramatically change the image quality. The LK990 owner sent it back right after we concluded the shootout. I would be more than happy to attend a shootout if another one were to occur. I'd even loan my own NX9 if necessary.
The Lk990 was nice with brighter video content, but the vast majority of Hollywood video is very dark overall, with HDR content actually having a lower percent ADL most of the time compared to SDR video content. People have analyzed the two and have drawn that conclusion.
Normally high nit output is only necessary for small specular highlights within an image, which is why tonemapping isn't that big of a deal as far as image quality is concerned. Its very rare to find HDR video that requires the entire display to be at a high nit level.
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I pretty much hate watching movies on TV's - flat panels or otherwise. I've been watching a projector of one sort or another for 17 years. At Cedia I just walk on by the flat panels - all of them. I don't like the look of watching a piece of glass. Too small too. So no - I have no HDR flat panel. Just a 1080p model for watching the news. That I bought at CostCo.
I post over at the Blu-ray website. It's funny, because 99% of those guys are using 65" flat panels. They think front projection is garbage because they have never seen an excellent projector in a good room. They have no idea how good it can look. They are used to low quality projectors often seen in schools, business, or bars/restaurants.
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I post over at the Blu-ray website. It's funny, because 99% of those guys are using 65" flat panels. They think front projection is garbage because they have never seen an excellent projector in a good room. They have no idea how good it can look. They are used to low quality projectors often seen in schools, business, or bars/restaurants.
I'm converting folks on Twitter with screen shots to think projection rather than flat panels. I just like the look much better myself.
" So you'd prefer to do the same on your HDR flat panels ".
Not MY HDR flat panel. I don't own one.
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Except that you gave your earlier settings the same hype and several people compared your earlier settings against a high native contrast projector and every single one of them came to the same conclusion.
You keep saying everyone is wrong and you are right and yet you have never made the comparison.
It has been already shown that the settings used were not my finalized settings and some if not all weren't even the ones used for the LK990. They tried to use the ones for the LK970, which are so far off if used on the LK990 that it isn't even funny.
You keep saying I am wrong and you are right and yet you and everyone here replying has never made the comparison or even tried what it is I am saying I am doing, let alone on an LK990!
And btw, I had high contrast projectors here at the same time (VW885ES, and before you say it, yes it had an issue and was sent back, but its black/contrast performace wasn't it.) and within a very recent period of having the LK990 and have seen them many, many times for 30+ years here in this very room and many other venues and theaters. I know what good black levels, contrast and a great video image looks like, so you can preach at me all you want, but what you say is still incorrect. I also have an LG OLED here to compare scenes to.
The real question is......have you actually seen an LK990 with these settings, or even the old ones I used? If not, you actually are the one who is not qualified to comment with any first hand knowledge here.
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Now THAT is funny!!! ;D If you only knew.........
I would love and welcome that too. Bring it on, although I am sure you all would only rate it based on total black levels and contrast alone, which is the real issue here.
Which is exactly what helps this look amazing! It helps with the two laser dimming features (Automatic Power Control and SmartEco) which I have mentioned on numerous occasions here already.
Again......if you only knew.
I already explained this. It allows you to basically present the entire main video content in the ~100 nit range, essentially alleviating the need for tone mapping (compression) in that portion of the video, leaving the remaining nit range this projector provides for specular highlights, which are basically the only portion now needing any tone mapping (compression) at all! This results in amazing image rendition, including low ADL images btw.
Dave, again, I'm not doubting what DV does to the image. I'm sure it helps a lot. I'm just doubting how it looks through this projector. Especially when put against some of the other projectors near its price.
I remember you and Kris Deering had begun to set a shootout up. What's the deal with that? Let's all set a date and maybe we can get a few extra impartial judges to join the three of us and set up a blind test where they can pick a winner.
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Now THAT is funny!!! ;D If you only knew.........
I would love and welcome that too. Bring it on, although I am sure you all would only rate it based on total black levels and contrast alone, which is the real issue here.
Which is exactly what helps this look amazing! It helps with the two laser dimming features (Automatic Power Control and SmartEco) which I have mentioned on numerous occasions here already.
Again......if you only knew.
I already explained this. It allows you to basically present the entire main video content in the ~100 nit range, essentially alleviating the need for tone mapping (compression) in that portion of the video, leaving the remaining nit range this projector provides for specular highlights, which are basically the only portion now needing any tone mapping (compression) at all! This results in amazing image rendition, including low ADL images btw.
So a projector with around 1,000:1 native contrast does not have to do any tone mapping for the main video content in the ~ 100 nit range. Now that would be a real magic trick. How else is it doing the low end, other than by tone mapping to the projectors capability? You keep looking at just the light output for the high end, while ignoring the low end, yet about 50% of movie ADL is 5% or less. I am not saying the LK990 does not look good, nearly all over $1,000 projectors look pretty good these days.
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So you're seriously going to sit there and proclaim that something like an OLED display, whether 55, 65, 77" or whatever displays HDR and Dolby Vision worse than what is displayed on a front projector? I am not talking just sheer size. I am talking about sheer visual quality and the way HDR/DV was mastered to look.
I certainly hope that's not your stance, because then your credibility would be shot.
What I am doing more replicates what these flat panels are doing, not what a nit starved JVC or Sony "HDR" projector is doing.
I never said that. I said I don't own any 4K / HDR flat panels and have zero interest in them. None.
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Below comments just for interest...;)
I had the LK970 for a while to assess and eventually sold it to a good friend who also had a Sony 760ES.
At this time both madVR and Lumagen were still "working on" their DTM solutions.
My friend who purchased the LK970 initially preferred the LK970 to the 760ES due to its brightness ans sharpness advantage over the Sony.
Just recentley we set up his 760ES again to run with madVR after i built a HTPC for him.....this "Transformed" the 760ES!!
The LK970 obviosly still has the advantage of a "Sharper" image, but now with madVR,s DTM the Sony has the far better image. The big brightness advantage the LK had is pretty much negated by madVR,s DTM on the Sony.
I also have a Lumagen 4242....results are very similar .
So , i get what other here are saying...Mike /Dylan....
The LK990 with the LLDV "Hack" takes the LK990 up a notch, BUT apply that or madVR / Lumagens DTM to other projectors and the those projectors also move up a notch, so you have just moved the image quality on ALL projectors up to another level , but the disavantages of the LK990 still apply.
I still have a huge respect for the LK970 i had here ! it has a awesome lens and one of the sharpest images i have seen , but its low end contrast brings it undone on the majority of content.
And , yes i know this is not the LK990, but contrast wise there is not that much in it between the two.
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Dave, again, I'm not doubting what DV does to the image. I'm sure it helps a lot. I'm just doubting how it looks through this projector. Especially when put against some of the other projectors near its price....
I know, that's what I am laughing at! ;D
...I remember you and Kris Deering had begun to set a shootout up. What's the deal with that? Let's all set a date and maybe we can get a few extra impartial judges to join the three of us and set up a blind test where they can pick a winner.
I don't really recall that being a real thing. We certainly discuss it being a good thing to do, but I am really limited financially in what I am able to do as far as travelling to areas of the country. Now if someone wants to come here or is in an area around central PA when I am there occasionally, that can maybe happen. I have a dealer there that is willing to host an event. I just have to get there and with this COVID-19 crap, which spoiled my plans. :-\
I don't think it's about a "winner", per se'. Each projector will bring it's own strengths and weaknesses with it and therefore those that totally favor ultimate blacks and contrast ratios only will of course choose the JVC or even a Sony nearly 100% of the time since they will ignore all the other attributes that make something like the LK990 better in many other ways, which may not have the ultimate black floor of the JVCs, but rather is "good enough" and "believable" enough as to not be a complete non-starter when taking into account the other benefits seen, which is what I have always said regarding these from the very beginning. This is what makes the LK990 better to me, because I don't limit my vision and throw all my eggs into only one contrast basket.
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I never said that. I said I don't own any 4K / HDR flat panels and have zero interest in them. None.
But that wasn't an answer to what my initial statement was inferring though. Even if you choose to not have any 4K HDR/DV flat panels, it doesn't change the fact that those devices, for pure HDR/DV quality (not taking into account size) are widely known and accepted as the best displays to represent what it is HDR is "supposed to" look like. One of the big reasons why is because of the added brightness levels they can reach while maintaining a "good enough" black level/contrast (in the case of LCDs at least) without having to do so much tone mapping as a nit starved, 100 nit max projector does. What I am saying with the LK990 is the same "concept", as I have stated.
The closest we can get to full 10,000 nits is the best option.....period. And no, before you say it, we ALL know the HDR movie itself is only within the first 100 nits, so no you won't be blinded except when they choose to do so with super high specular highlights, but isn't that then "what the director intended"? Of course that would be blinding in a darkened room, so if you only tone map the highlights over 100 nits, like I am saying, you'll get the same benefit without retinal damage! ;D
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Below comments just for interest...;)
I had the LK970 for a while to assess and eventually sold it to a good friend who also had a Sony 760ES.
At this time both madVR and Lumagen were still "working on" their DTM solutions.
My friend who purchased the LK970 initially preferred the LK970 to the 760ES due to its brightness ans sharpness advantage over the Sony.
Just recentley we set up his 760ES again to run with madVR after i built a HTPC for him.....this "Transformed" the 760ES!!
The LK970 obviosly still has the advantage of a "Sharper" image, but now with madVR,s DTM the Sony has the far better image. The big brightness advantage the LK had is pretty much negated by madVR,s DTM on the Sony.
I also have a Lumagen 4242....results are very similar .
So , i get what other here are saying...Mike /Dylan....
The LK990 with the LLDV "Hack" takes the LK990 up a notch, BUT apply that or madVR / Lumagens DTM to other projectors and the those projectors also move up a notch, so you have just moved the image quality on ALL projectors up to another level , but the disavantages of the LK990 still apply.
I still have a huge respect for the LK970 i had here ! it has a awesome lens and one of the sharpest images i have seen , but its low end contrast brings it undone on the majority of content.
And , yes i know this is not the LK990, but contrast wise there is not that much in it between the two.
You're not taking into account the very real and large differences between the LK970 and the LK990, coupled with what you said by adding the LLDV mod. Your last sentence is where you went wrong completely. I just explained this again in my reply to Mike and many places elsewhere. It is a completely different experience with the LK990 over the LK970, then it takes it up 2-3 notches with the addition of the LLDV tweak and using a less aggressive HDR curve on the LK990, while on other projectors like the JVCs and Sonys, it only takes it up 1 notch, especially if you don't readjust your curves and totally redo them based on what this 10,000 nit LLDV Custom DV Data Block can bring to the table. The BIG disadvantage of those projectors now is that they top out at ~100 nits, if that, when taking these new modifications and settings into account.
The same benefits and improvements you're saying that MadVR brings to the 760ES are essentially the same things that are now being seen here on the LK990. So to me this info is moot.
I would love to see what MadVR could do here too, but my PC isn't powerful enough yet and there is no way I am affording an Envy. I did have a Radiance Pro here with the first few iterations of DTM and I can tell you those versions weren't as dramatic as what I see here now with LLDV. Of course I am sure with further refinements in both the FW of the RP and doing a similar 10,000 nit setting, it could possibly have been as good or better now. I will never know unless I get another one, but would love to find out!
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How do you do a multi-quote on this forum? I tried many things and can't seem to get it to work. I tried quoting someone's post, then hitting "Insert Quote" on other posts I wanted to add on the reply screen that pops up, but it didn't seem to work and add the new post to my reply box.
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How do you do a multi-quote on this forum? I tried many things and can't seem to get it to work. I tried quoting someone's post, then hitting "Insert Quote" on other posts I wanted to add on the reply screen that pops up, but it didn't seem to work and add the new post to my reply box.
Easiest way is probably to use the "Toggle View" button at the end of the icons when replying. That'll expose the actual tags - you want to do quote tags, with "[" and "]" around "quote" at the start and "/quote" at the end, for each individual quote.
This is a manual quote I've inserted with that technique.
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It is a completely different experience with the LK990 over the LK970, then it takes it up 2-3 notches with the addition of the LLDV tweak
From the MadVR Envy Thread... in relation to LLDV..
Speaking of which, here's a quote that a private beta customer (who just got his unit a couple days ago) sent to his dealer. I'm posting it here with the user's permission:
Quote:
Before starting, just want to say: OMG !!!
Forget the LLDV tweak ;-) Envy just kills it. Actually it kills everything I saw before. I’m interested to see what Envy could do with a DolbyVision source considering what it can already do with HDR.
And the most interesting, it improves in a consistent way, all the sources (I don’t see so much differences between my Oppo and my Vero 4K). Its name should be MadVR Magic. Finally we have the plug and play for all sources, all movies... before I was able to clearly identify the player who was playing the movie. With madVR Envy, it becomes really difficult. Not that the source doesn’t count anymore but the Envy does a such damn good job that it required me more effort to see the difference. It’s just impressive! And impressive also because the image is the best I’ve ever seen... It’s so cool that you feel the image is really good and you don’t feel the need to tweak anymore your config for each movies... no more never ending nights trying to find the best config you can use for all movies with LLDV, sources config, projector. It’s just work as you “dream” it should."
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You're not taking into account the very real and large differences between the LK970 and the LK990, coupled with what you said by adding the LLDV mod. Your last sentence is where you went wrong completely. I just explained this again in my reply to Mike and many places elsewhere. It is a completely different experience with the LK990 over the LK970, then it takes it up 2-3 notches with the addition of the LLDV tweak and using a less aggressive HDR curve on the LK990, while on other projectors like the JVCs and Sonys, it only takes it up 1 notch, especially if you don't readjust your curves and totally redo them based on what this 10,000 nit LLDV Custom DV Data Block can bring to the table. The BIG disadvantage of those projectors now is that they top out at ~100 nits, if that, when taking these new modifications and settings into account.
The same benefits and improvements you're saying that MadVR brings to the 760ES are essentially the same things that are now being seen here on the LK990. So to me this info is moot.
I would love to see what MadVR could do here too, but my PC isn't powerful enough yet and there is no way I am affording an Envy. I did have a Radiance Pro here with the first few iterations of DTM and I can tell you those versions weren't as dramatic as what I see here now with LLDV. Of course I am sure with further refinements in both the FW of the RP and doing a similar 10,000 nit setting, it could possibly have been as good or better now. I will never know unless I get another one, but would love to find out!
Well, I've seen an LK990 with madVR DTM in use, so when you factor in what was said above about LLDV vs madVR, the transitive property states its still no contest as to which throws the better image. This projector simply cannot keep up with the Sony and JVC models near (or even below) the cost of the LK990.
I will agree with you when you state that some may prefer the LK990 due it's amazing brightness and sharp image, but I would say those people are in the extreme minority. This is evidenced by how few people actually own one of these projectors. Honestly, if BenQ would sell this projector with an MSRP of $5,000, I would have a much more favorable attitude towards it. I just think for what it offers, it's too expensive.
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Easiest way is probably to use the "Toggle View" button at the end of the icons when replying. That'll expose the actual tags - you want to do quote tags, with "[" and "]" around "quote" at the start and "/quote" at the end, for each individual quote.
Yes thank you. That is actually how I do it now, but most forums have a button to do some sort of "Multi-Quotes", where you can click on each posting to add each one to your reply box in succession where you can then do one long reply post to everyone, without having separate posts to each one individually. I know some like to do it this way to add to their post count though, haha! ;D
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From the MadVR Envy Thread... in relation to LLDV..
Speaking of which, here's a quote that a private beta customer (who just got his unit a couple days ago) sent to his dealer. I'm posting it here with the user's permission:
Quote:
Before starting, just want to say: OMG !!!
Forget the LLDV tweak ;-) Envy just kills it. Actually it kills everything I saw before. I’m interested to see what Envy could do with a DolbyVision source considering what it can already do with HDR.
And the most interesting, it improves in a consistent way, all the sources (I don’t see so much differences between my Oppo and my Vero 4K). Its name should be MadVR Magic. Finally we have the plug and play for all sources, all movies... before I was able to clearly identify the player who was playing the movie. With madVR Envy, it becomes really difficult. Not that the source doesn’t count anymore but the Envy does a such damn good job that it required me more effort to see the difference. It’s just impressive! And impressive also because the image is the best I’ve ever seen... It’s so cool that you feel the image is really good and you don’t feel the need to tweak anymore your config for each movies... no more never ending nights trying to find the best config you can use for all movies with LLDV, sources config, projector. It’s just work as you “dream” it should."
Well I would hope it does.....for $5,000 - $12,000 more!!! ???
Even then, I find it funny that you all rail on me for posting such subjective, adjective induced banter and excitement when I discuss my thoughts and feelings on what I have seen and done, yet it seems perfectly fine to post your own similarly based quoted subjective "opinions" and how that seems OK and unquestioned as long as it meets what you believe and supports your stance on the matter.
What projector is this on? What are the settings being used for LLDV on both the HDFury and projector in question? Is MadVR doing HDR to SDR tone mapping? How can we just blindly accept this so called "review" without any details whatsoever, based on one man's exuberant posting of a device few have even seen? Sound familiar?
I thought I read that you were getting an Envy as a beta unit. If so, what are your personal thoughts on this?
I bet if I had MadVR/Envy here I could make them extremely close in image quality on the LK990, and not the 1 million light years ahead as this "review" seems to make it out to be.
BTW, I have my setup for LLDV pretty much plug and play now as well. The only exception is the occasional contrast adjustment up or down depending on the material, which is very easy to do.
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Well, I've seen an LK990 with madVR DTM in use, so when you factor in what was said above about LLDV vs madVR, the transitive property states its still no contest as to which throws the better image. This projector simply cannot keep up with the Sony and JVC models near (or even below) the cost of the LK990.
I will agree with you when you state that some may prefer the LK990 due it's amazing brightness and sharp image, but I would say those people are in the extreme minority. This is evidenced by how few people actually own one of these projectors. Honestly, if BenQ would sell this projector with an MSRP of $5,000, I would have a much more favorable attitude towards it. I just think for what it offers, it's too expensive.
Oh, so you or anyone else has actually seen and used an LK990 with these exact settings I've been discussing, using native Dolby Vision with LLDV from an HDFury device with a custom 10,000 nit max Dolby Vision Data block to tailor it to your setup? So you know how this performs first hand and not with "transitive property", so you can now speak authoritatively on this?
Yep, I didn't think so. That is why I laugh and continue to do so.
Was the LK990 using SDR mode from MadVR, which converted HDR to SDR? I have already established the differences between this when using normal power gamma vs ST2084 on THIS particular projector when combined with an HDR Brightness (tone curve) of -2 and 10,000 nits DV Block with the LK990's two laser dimming features engaged, Automatic Power Control and SmartEco.
It seems no matter what I say or do here, none of you will ever read thoroughly to understanding or asking real questions if you don't. You don't give any credence to anything I say, so I do not know why I bother posting somewhere that doesn't promote open minds and discussions on topics that if nothing else should bring about some informative back and forth questions from both sides. Instead it's always, "this can't be done" or "it can't look like that", even when the so called informed poster has never done or seen or experienced the topic in question. I can see this if I was some sort of newbie or uneducated vidiot, but nothing could be further from the truth, even in comparison to many of those making such uninformed postings themselves.
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I just wanted to put out here that I have no doubt that the MadVR Envy or even a Radiance Pro puts out an absolutely incredible image, especially with DTM. Of course, that was never in question and I have at least seen and used a Radiance Pro with DTM on this exact LK990 that I am now trying the LLDV 10,000 nit Dolby Vision tweak on.
I am not questioning those products in the least, one of which I have used and seen personally with my exact setup I still have now, yet you all seem to question me on something none of you have seen or used personally. Now do you see the discrepancy and hypocrisy?
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I just wanted to put out here that I have no doubt that the MadVR Envy or even a Radiance Pro puts out an absolutely incredible image, especially with DTM. Of course, that was never in question and I have at least seen and used a Radiance Pro with DTM on this exact LK990 that I am now trying the LLDV 10,000 nit Dolby Vision tweak on.
I am not questioning those products in the least, one of which I have used and seen personally with my exact setup I still have now, yet you all seem to question me on something none of you have seen or used personally. Now do you see the discrepancy and hypocrisy?
The Lumagen you used, was several generations old, as far as HDR tone mapping goes. Not even in the same galaxie compared to today's performance.
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The Lumagen you used, was several generations old, as far as HDR tone mapping goes. Not even in the same galaxie compared to today's performance.
I can say the same for the settings I am discussing now as well. Even so, I am sure it isn't in another galaxy as you so eloquently put it. If I said that, this forum would explode! ;D
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I can say the same for the settings I am discussing now as well. Even so, I am sure it isn't in another galaxy as you so eloquently put it. If I said that, this forum would explode! ;D
We are not talking about just a change of setting. Just like saying the out of the box HDR performance between the RS540 and the RS2000 is worlds apart. That is because the technology changed.
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Well I would hope it does.....for $5,000 - $12,000 more!!! ???
Even then, I find it funny that you all rail on me for posting such subjective, adjective induced banter and excitement when I discuss my thoughts and feelings on what I have seen and done, yet it seems perfectly fine to post your own similarly based quoted subjective "opinions" and how that seems OK and unquestioned as long as it meets what you believe and supports your stance on the matter.
What projector is this on? What are the settings being used for LLDV on both the HDFury and projector in question? Is MadVR doing HDR to SDR tone mapping? How can we just blindly accept this so called "review" without any details whatsoever, based on one man's exuberant posting of a device few have even seen? Sound familiar?
I thought I read that you were getting an Envy as a beta unit. If so, what are your personal thoughts on this?
I bet if I had MadVR/Envy here I could make them extremely close in image quality on the LK990, and not the 1 million light years ahead as this "review" seems to make it out to be.
BTW, I have my setup for LLDV pretty much plug and play now as well. The only exception is the occasional contrast adjustment up or down depending on the material, which is very easy to do.
I personally don't give these non reviews any weight. I'm waiting for more scientific un-biased tests / comparisons.
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Dave, no offense, but you have just as little experience as the others posting, if not less. You haven't seen current Lumagen and madVR DTM, you haven't had a current JVC or Sony and you haven't compared these projectors in the same room at the same time. So I ask you as you've asked others: how can we blindly trust what you say to be correct? Some of us have more experience than you do and yet you want to tell us "if you only knew". The hypocrisy is palpable.
I've had a few low contrast DLPs come though here lately and while DTM made a big difference, it was still no where near enough to make the image competitive to the current Sony and JVC projectors. I'm sure DV into the LK990 helps in a similar enough way to DTM, though others say less.
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We are not talking about just a change of setting. Just like saying the out of the box HDR performance between the RS540 and the RS2000 is worlds apart. That is because the technology changed.
See, you are fundamentally not understanding or reading what I wrote. "Settings" was probably a bad choice of words, but I have posted what I am talking about numerous times here now.
It isn't the settings I use, per se'. It is the very real difference it makes to the resultant image (on the LK990 specifically) when you change the custom DV Data Data block (do you understand what that is?) from something like what you'd think it should be, like the max nits of your display or a known custom tone curve like 1,000 nits, to basically telling the source to be "wide open" and send all its got with a custom 10,000 nit (notice the extra zero? Perhaps you hadn't before?) max luminance (nits) setting in the HDF. That, along with sending the full native Dolby Vision essentially is like using a whole new technology when compared to the "old way" of doing it with custom or straight 1,000 nit HDR curves or converting from HDR BT2020 to SDR BT2020, while only being able to feed it HDR10, not full native dolby vision.
So, the technology changed here too. It used to use straight HDR, tone mapped to the LK990 using an equivalent HDR curve to match the parameters of the tone map being used. Then you just used the available settings in the LK990 and UB820 to create the best image possible with what you have.
Now it uses an HDFury Vertex2 (*new technology), Dolby Vision/LLDV (*new technology discovery for any HDR display), Custom DV Data Block (*new adjustable technology) using the least aggressive and most wide open HDR tone curve available on the LK990 so as to allow the purest HDR/DV signal to pass through almost unmolested, with the exception of what you tweak into a correct state based on the source material, using the contrast (sometimes) and brightness (once).
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Dave, no offense, but you have just as little experience as the others posting, if not less. You haven't seen current Lumagen and madVR DTM, you haven't had a current JVC or Sony and you haven't compared these projectors in the same room at the same time. So I ask you as you've asked others: how can we blindly trust what you say to be correct? Some of us have more experience than you do and yet you want to tell us "if you only knew". The hypocrisy is palpable......
Sorry, but I do take offense to the demeaning and condescending replies to almost every single post of mine. I believe anyone here would feel the same if the same thing happened to them when all they're trying to do is share something they deem is worthy of further consideration and discussion, without judgement and personal attacks if said individuals haven't even seen the results of the topic in question. But then again, I am just a clown, so it's OK to act that way towards me, right?
In case you don't understand why I feel like all the posts to me are demeaning and condescending, to put it into perspective with today's current events, if someone talked to and responded to Dr. Anthony Fauci or Deborah Berks as if they were some fresh recruit out of med school on their first residency position instead of with the knowledge and understanding which they bring with many, many years of experience to the table, which gives credence to what they say without having to always hand out their resume all the time and they're given the benefit of the doubt based on their long standing knowledge of the topic at hand, in their case infectious diseases and the spread of them, then I am sure they would feel as though they were "demeaned, offended and condescended upon", as anyone would in such a situation. In my case, I explain below........
As far as the experience comment, I am talking about overall experience in this field, not just a singular experience of a single topic under discussion. I venture to say that I have much more experience in this field than anyone posting here. I have been evaluating and teaching both the student and the technology, in broadcast, video and audio, in the commercial, consumer, rental & staging and government realms for well over 30 years (1987). You?
I wasn't asking you to blindly trust this exact technology and tweak that I am discussing. I was asking for the benefit of the doubt that seems to be afforded to so many others but not me (as long as it matches your position, like the ridiculous Envy quote woofer posted), even though as I stated above I have 30+ years of experience in this field and I know what a good video image looks like and what acceptable (not laughable) blacks and contrast look like as well, so I can judge the ENTIRE video signal's attributes as a whole and can come to a COMPLETE conclusion on whether what I am seeing is OVERALL the best HDR/DV image I can see in this scenario of home theater projection, without biasing my decision to contrast and blacks levels as being the ONLY deciding factors on which is best. That is of course subjective, and by now you've all revealed your "subjective" opinions.
On the subject of comparisons and experience with this particular setup and tweak, I do have more experience with it, as none of you have EVEN ONCE done this on an LK990, or any other display for that matter. I have at least had a recent Sony here, a VW885ES, unlike what you stated Dylan. I also had a Lumagen Radiance Pro with DTM and used it on this exact LK990. And no, I do not agree in the least that the difference between the version of DTM I had is that much of a difference to what is out now. Any more than the continuing advances made with the HDFury devices and customizing and modifying and tweaking what can be done in those with LLDV as compared to when I first discovered this ability using a Sony A1 OLED EDID. Sure, it is "improved and different", but not fundamentally so. The basis of which are still blacks without crushing and whites without blooming, all the while maintaining each frame/scene without the same crushing or blooming while showing proper steps and levels of color and luminance as HDR provides.
I also have an LG OLED C65. I use it to watch the same scenes I test on this LK990/HDF/LLDV setup as a comparison to what is thought to be the best consumer representation of HDR/DV in a flat panel today. I can say without doubt that OVERALL the HDR/DV video image on the LK990 certainly holds its own and is FAR from laughable.
I am not even the one comparing it to JVC or Sony anyway. I have only said it is better than my old way and it's the best that I have ever seen in my home theater. I am only countering everyone's untried and untested opinions here which state that it simply can't look good based on something they witnessed previously, which isn't even close to the same as what is being talked about now. Would I love to do this exact thing using a last generation JVC or Sony? You betcha, and if it was better than what I am doing now I would say so!!! In fact, that's maybe the most important reason I started this discussion, so hopefully you guys would see it for what it can be and then try it on your JVCs and Sonys or whatever other projector or HDR only display you may have on hand and report back. There are many, many others on the LLDV threads on AVSF and AVF that support my position of this being a game changer, on just about every projector it has been tried on. Many use both methods, DTM using MadVR or Radiance Pro for SDR and HDR10 and the LLDV mod for native Dolby Vision sources. It doesn't have to be an either/or.
There is no hypocrisy here. I have seen it and done it. You have not. It can't be anymore clear than that, can it? Until you actually do it exactly as I have and then do an unbiased report on it, your opinions on it here are just that, untested and uninformed opinions, unlike mine which are from first hand experience in more ways than any of you.
....I've had a few low contrast DLPs come though here lately and while DTM made a big difference, it was still no where near enough to make the image competitive to the current Sony and JVC projectors. I'm sure DV into the LK990 helps in a similar enough way to DTM, though others say less.
Oh, so you have actually used an HDFury Vertex2, DIVA or Maestro to fool the source into sending a native Dolby Vision signal being fed to that "low contrast" DLP (not an LK990 I am sure), with a custom DV Data Block set to a max luminance of 10,000 nits, .0005 min luminance, LLDV, BT2020 custom color gamut points, etc., so you know first hand how this looks then?
As I have said countless times here too. I had a "low contrast" DLP here at the same time with the LK990, doing the exact same process described in my paragraph just above, and it was NOT the same......at all! That "low contrast" DLP was the BenQ HT9060. That DLP was from the same manufacturer using the same chassis with basically just the light engine and the lens being the main difference. The SmartEco, Automatic Power Control (if it even has it), picture modes & settings and their HDR Tone Mapping are essentially identical, yet the resultant images are FAR from it, as I have just seen first hand! So unless you personally used an LK990 with exactly the same external equipment and settings/tweaks, your prior experience with those "low contrast" DLPs are moot here.
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Dave, fair points, however, you downplaying the effectiveness of DTM vs LLDV is why I said you lack experience. It has nothing to do with your previous work with older displays and technologies. On top of calling what woofer posted as "ridiculous", despite if someone knows how to setup the LLDV hack they probably know how to set up a projector and DTM elsewhere, you try and label tone mapping as some sort of evil that could never achieve great results. So, as much as you'd like to play victim here, you've put on a pretty lengthy campaign to downplay the benefits of madVR/lumagen in favor of your LLDV hack. And when someone who's actually compared the two and came to a completely different conclusion, closer to what I've been stating all a long, you scoff it off completely as "ridiculous." Why is that?
For the millionth time, I am in no way saying LLDV looks bad. It's just that you've been trying to tout the performance of this specific projector as "as good or better" than the competition with your "if you only knew" comments. So whether you directly or indirectly state these things, the way you speak about this projector implies these things. That's why so many Sony/JVC vs LK990 comments are made.
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Crikey!
What'd I miss??
(https://media.giphy.com/media/fGUbHqMMmqya2kbAwd/source.gif)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohs4tKADK8HEYD4I0/source.gif)
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Crikey!
What'd I miss??
The same tired arguments typed out over and over. ;D
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Crikey!
What'd I miss??
(https://media.giphy.com/media/fGUbHqMMmqya2kbAwd/source.gif)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohs4tKADK8HEYD4I0/source.gif)
That was a damn good fight scene !
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Dave, fair points, however, you downplaying the effectiveness of DTM vs LLDV is why I said you lack experience.....
I'm not sure how you got that as the point of my posts? It has nothing whatsoever to do with DTM vs LLDV, especially since LLDV is Dolby Vision, which is DTM! The only reason anything remotely to do with tone mapping or DTM came up is because of your and other's statements about how display brightness doesn't matter, when it most certainly does, and I explained the reasons why. If you disagree then you disagree why HDR/DV flat panels are universally considered better for HDR/DV, black floor notwithstanding as even good quality LCD UHD TVs are better overall for HDR/DV than projectors, as I have stated already.
...It has nothing to do with your previous work with older displays and technologies......
You just had to throw that in there, didn't you? The condescension never ends with you does it, Dylan? I have a TON of experience with all these new fangled gadgets and technology, Dylan. I experiment with it on almost a daily basis for hours at a time. I have since the beginning, creating custom curves and settings and many other cutting edge things, like discovering the LLDV hack to get Dolby Vision on home projectors in the first place! How about you, Dylan? I doubt you're in your theater room for hours every night trying new things and experimenting with out of the box thinking and new ideas. Your responses have pretty much made that clear.
.... On top of calling what woofer posted as "ridiculous", despite if someone knows how to setup the LLDV hack they probably know how to set up a projector and DTM elsewhere, you try and label tone mapping as some sort of evil that could never achieve great results. So, as much as you'd like to play victim here, you've put on a pretty lengthy campaign to downplay the benefits of madVR/lumagen in favor of your LLDV hack. And when someone who's actually compared the two and came to a completely different conclusion, closer to what I've been stating all a long, you scoff it off completely as "ridiculous." Why is that?......
See my prior response above. It wasn't about DTM vs LLDV.....at all. It is and always was about the LK990 and what you can get out of it using LLDV, not as a comparison to DTM (even though they both are, btw), but as a low cost alternative to people who can't afford a multi-thousand dollar video processor, or have the time, patience or care to fiddle with a PC.
I said his post was ridiculous in terms of the context with which he was using it in and how ridiculous the tone of it was with no real meat or substance, the same thing you all acuse me of, btw, but say NOTHING of it when it is by someone who coincidentally matches your position on the subject. Were it I or anyone else that made a similar type of quoted post, it would have been torn to shreds by you and everyone, and you know it.
It was also ridiculous because this was said in reference to an LK990 and what it does on it, you know, the actual topic of this very thread! His post had nothing whatsoever to do with an LK990 and his impressions weren't even based on an LK990.
I tried everything from custom curves, HDR Optimizers, DTM from a Lumagen Radiance Pro on the LK990 and then tried LLDV on the LK990 and on the HT9060, and I chose LLDV as the superior choice and image at the time on the LK990! You know, again the very topic of this thread.
.......For the millionth time, I am in no way saying LLDV looks bad. It's just that you've been trying to tout the performance of this specific projector as "as good or better" than the competition with your "if you only knew" comments. So whether you directly or indirectly state these things, the way you speak about this projector implies these things. That's why so many Sony/JVC vs LK990 comments are made.
For the two millionth time, I am ONLY defending the incorrect bias towards THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR, which all of you come on and slam every chance you get with erroneous info clearly biased towards what YOU want to believe because as I sit here, the image in NO WAY looks as you folks portray it to look, namely because you don't know how to set THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR UP the correct way to take advantage of what it DOES offer, if anyone cares to actually read, understand and THINK outside their walled garden of "blacks and contrast are all that matters"!
You clearly once again didn't read where I clearly said I would love to see someone try this on Sony and JVC projectors, especially an RS4500/Z1! That was also the meaning behind why I posted here again in the first place! My dream projector right now is the JVC RS4500 for God's Sake, because it would give the benefits of ALL the things I am looking for right now! :-\ .........
...I am not even the one comparing it to JVC or Sony anyway. I have only said it is better than my old way and it's the best that I have ever seen in my home theater. I am only countering everyone's untried and untested opinions here which state that it simply can't look good based on something they witnessed previously, which isn't even close to the same as what is being talked about now. Would I love to do this exact thing using a last generation JVC or Sony? You betcha, and if it was better than what I am doing now I would say so!!! In fact, that's maybe the most important reason I started this discussion, so hopefully you guys would see it for what it can be and then try it on your JVCs and Sonys or whatever other projector or HDR only display you may have on hand and report back. There are many, many others on the LLDV threads on AVSF and AVF that support my position of this being a game changer, on just about every projector it has been tried on. Many use both methods, DTM using MadVR or Radiance Pro for SDR and HDR10 and the LLDV mod for native Dolby Vision sources. It doesn't have to be an either/or....
The "if you only knew" comment was in reply to how you were incorrectly referring to what you think this projector looks like, not in comparison to other projectors, per se'. Here is a YouTube video that sort of shows how you and everyone thinks the LK990 looks (top image), and more like how I know it can look, or even better (bottom image), if you know how to optimize it properly:
https://youtu.be/2nN_wJpno2M
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Crikey!
What'd I miss??
The same tired arguments typed out over and over. ;D
They had to be typed over and over again because certain readers have decided not to comprehend what was written, by choice or other agendas or motives.
You writing..."The same tired arguments"..... kind of proves my point, considering this is completely different than anything else discussed here previously.
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Dave compare the two (RS2000 and LK990) in a good room, like others have, then come back and talk about it.
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Dave compare the two (RS2000 and LK990) in a good room, like others have, then come back and talk about it.
That really made me laugh! ;D OK then, in fairness.......
Mike, Dylan, Javs, woofer, anyone else,
Compare the RS2000 or any other good blacks, contrast only and nit starved projector to the LK990 setup the exact way I have done it, then come back and actually have something to say that has value other than your uninformed, untried and untested opinion of what I am talking about now on the LK990.
Also, let me get this straight. Nobody is allowed to talk about the performance of their projectors on this site, unless they've had the one in question along with another, mass group think proclaimed best one in the room at the same time for comparison? Gotcha Mike. Now that I know the rules here, I will try to remember them. After all, I am just a clown that doesn't know what good video looks like and all after 30+ years of doing this, and I don't have a best in class leading OLED 4K to compare to either. Whew, glad I finally understood what all this hoopla was about!
Is there any particular reason you're making this ONLY about contrast and black levels? Is it because that's all ya got, maybe?
This IS the LK990 thread last I checked, right?
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Several already made the comparison using your earlier settings that you claimed were great. You claimed the LK990 performed better than any of the low nit JVC and Sony projectors. All of the people along with their guests came to the same conclusion, the RS2000 outperformed the LK990. Of course you made your claim without any side by side comparison and without ever seeing an RS2000 and you are laughing at us.
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Several already made the comparison using your earlier settings that you claimed were great.....
"Earlier settings"? Thanks for proving my point, Mike.
....You claimed the LK990 performed better than any of the low nit JVC and Sony projectors......
Overall, yes. Total blacks and contrast, no.
....All of the people along with their guests came to the same conclusion, the RS2000 outperformed the LK990. Of course you made your claim without any side by side comparison and without ever seeing an RS2000 and you are laughing at us.
All of these so called "comparisons", as I have said a million times, were not done with any of my complete settings for the LK990. That is fact Mike. Many got their LK990's before I ever got mine or before I ever completed any tweaks, settings, equipment in use, etc. In fact, most if not all of those folks used settings from the old LK970, which has already been said a million times do not cross over at all to the upgraded LK990, which added SmartEco laser dimming and HDR.
Also, this is a totally different setup anyway. It would be like me saying....."well, I tested an RS600 with old eShift technology and my newer LK990 with an HDFury allowing native LLDV/Dolby Vision to be displayed and the LK990 beats it, so therefore I am jumping to conclusions based on something I did years ago and making the incorrect assumption and opinion that it also beats the newer native 4K RS2000"!
Also, in this case, nobody did any comparisons side by side whatsoever here either. Most if not all replying here haven't even tried this on any projector for that matter!
Why are you bringing in older, outdated information as a basis for your argument here, when something totally new is being discussed?
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One problem is every-time someone tests something, Dave's rebuttal is that there is a NEW setting which undoes everything that ever came before it, and it always happens when the people who did the testing dont have the machine anymore and thus 'ITS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOW', This is where the merry goes round...
The LK990 has a FINITE black floor, we all know how to test this, do you think you are the only person who knows how to test and manipulate a display to find its lowest possible black floor? Its really easy to do. If Dave thinks he found some way to increase the possible contrast past 5k, I call bull.
The LK990 has a pathetic black floor, that's just a fact. its contrast is ultimately unacceptable. What we have here is just Dave's level for acceptable contrast apparently way less stringent than some of us, and that's fine, why argue it back and forth.
"Overall, yes. Total blacks and contrast, no."
The LK990 DID NOT have better colour than the JVC I have, that's fact. And that's a BIG deal just like contrast is.
The LK990 DID NOT have better motion, its locked on some internal 60hz it looks wrong to me.
The LK990 DID NOT have better 3d. It was blurry as hell compared to the JVC which scales 3D properly.
The LK990 DID NOT have better shadow detail.
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Dave, what is your viewing environment like? I wonder if you're not seeing the massive difference the rest of us have seen because your room is limiting the performance of the projectors you've put up against the LK990. Do you have a room that soaks up stray light? I could see why someone would prefer the LK990 in a non-optomized room with all of its light output to counteract the issues with stray/reflected light within a room.
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The LK990 DID NOT have better colour than the JVC I have, that's fact. And that's a BIG deal just like contrast is.
The LK990 DID NOT have better motion, its locked on some internal 60hz it looks wrong to me.
The LK990 DID NOT have better 3d. It was blurry as hell compared to the JVC which scales 3D properly.
The LK990 DID NOT have better shadow detail.
It can't display 24p movies in 24p ? It's got built in " soap opera effect " ?
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"Earlier settings"? Thanks for proving my point, Mike.
Overall, yes. Total blacks and contrast, no.
All of these so called "comparisons", as I have said a million times, were not done with any of my complete settings for the LK990. That is fact Mike. Many got their LK990's before I ever got mine or before I ever completed any tweaks, settings, equipment in use, etc. In fact, most if not all of those folks used settings from the old LK970, which has already been said a million times do not cross over at all to the upgraded LK990, which added SmartEco laser dimming and HDR.
Also, this is a totally different setup anyway. It would be like me saying....."well, I tested an RS600 with old eShift technology and my newer LK990 with an HDFury allowing native LLDV/Dolby Vision to be displayed and the LK990 beats it, so therefore I am jumping to conclusions based on something I did years ago and making the incorrect assumption and opinion that it also beats the newer native 4K RS2000"!
Also, in this case, nobody did any comparisons side by side whatsoever here either. Most if not all replying here haven't even tried this on any projector for that matter!
Why are you bringing in older, outdated information as a basis for your argument here, when something totally new is being discussed?
Kris brought in the LK based on what you were reporting. You had had the unit for a while. As for your settings, you posted them. Kris found where you posted your settings and used them. You then came back and said those were not your latest settings. Kris then asked you for your latest settings, telling you he would have the LK there for another week and you never sent the settings, even though Kris asked several times? The posts are still there.
I am bring this up, because you made the exact same statements then regarding image quality, that you are making now.
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Dave, what is your viewing environment like? I wonder if you're not seeing the massive difference the rest of us have seen because your room is limiting the performance of the projectors you've put up against the LK990. Do you have a room that soaks up stray light? I could see why someone would prefer the LK990 in a non-optomized room with all of its light output to counteract the issues with stray/reflected light within a room.
I don't believe Dave has had a JVC or Sony for that matter, the same time he has had one of the LK's. He had a defective 885 for a few days, but that was before any of the LK projectors.
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It can't display 24p movies in 24p ? It's got built in " soap opera effect " ?
Yep, Kris saw it too, as did Dylan I believe.
Its very subtle but its there. I am completely allergic to motion that is not the original frame rate because the film industry is my career and noticed it very quickly.
Its motion resolution was excellent though, the sharpness of objects moving, but the actual motion itself was not proper 24p motion I know that much.
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Yep, Kris saw it too, as did Dylan I believe.
Its very subtle but its there. I am completely allergic to motion that is not the original frame rate because the film industry is my career and noticed it very quickly.
Its motion resolution was excellent though, the sharpness of objects moving, but the actual motion itself was not proper 24p motion I know that much.
Yeah, it accepts 24p but it appeared to me that everything was output at 60p. There seems to be some sort of pulldown happening internally. If I remember correctly, this behavior was common amongst several of the older .66-inch DLP DMD projectors.
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One problem is every-time someone tests something, Dave's rebuttal is that there is a NEW setting which undoes everything that ever came before it, and it always happens when the people who did the testing dont have the machine anymore and thus 'ITS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOW', This is where the merry goes round...
It was and is definitely a work in progress and great gains were made as I went along and as time passed. I don't understand why this is so hard to believe or understand? Are you trying to tell me that the longer someone owns something and the more they use, experiment, test and research something, that you aren't going to get a better understanding of how it works and how you can maximize what it does best, enhance what you can and minimize what its weaknesses are?
Plus, if you had read what I've written lately, this is a whole new thing I discovered being able to use Dolby Vision/LLDV on HDR10 only displays and projectors. This IS completely different.
...The LK990 has a FINITE black floor, we all know how to test this, do you think you are the only person who knows how to test and manipulate a display to find its lowest possible black floor? Its really easy to do. If Dave thinks he found some way to increase the possible contrast past 5k, I call bull.....
Maybe if you'd have read what I wrote about this, you'd see what it is I was talking about. Maybe you should consult @woofer and @markmon and ask them about the blacks and contrast with the LASER PHOSHOR RS4500/Z1 compared to the RS3000? Same concept. I will not repeat it here......again!
...The LK990 has a pathetic black floor, that's just a fact. its contrast is ultimately unacceptable. What we have here is just Dave's level for acceptable contrast apparently way less stringent than some of us, and that's fine, why argue it back and forth.....
No, what we have here is you not knowing what you're talking about, in relation to the LK990 anyway. I was actually going to email you and try to talk to you like an adult man, thinking you'd actually be willing to listen and have an open mind and maybe actually try this new found LLDV discovery on the LK990 and also using on other projectors. I would have LOVED your informed feedback, but Oh well. Such is life these days around the world.
I asked Mike for your email. I now see this once again can never happen with you or anyone here, so forget about it. The only people missing out are the ones who love HT and could really benefit from this and an open discussion, but once again you've all closed your minds and ruined it for anyone else who may benefit from this. Thanks.
...The LK990 DID NOT have better colour than the JVC I have, that's fact. And that's a BIG deal just like contrast is...
As I have stated previously..again...I discovered that if you reduce color down to about 7, use Color Enhancement around 16 and keep Brilliant Color ON, it allows the color to track very nicely. It is not I am sure as wide as the JVC with DCI filter, but one thing I do not see or miss here is color, that's for sure! In fact, the colors are quite amazing and appear to be one of the strengths now. You don't get the color shifts we saw and reported initially on the LK990. I am sure they're close to the Sonys and JVCs without DCI filter.
...The LK990 DID NOT have better motion, its locked on some internal 60hz it looks wrong to me...
I am not a huge motion guy and don't notice as much as many, I agree, but I certainly do NOT see anything even remotely similar to the "Soap Opera Effect". I know what that looks like of course, and I absolutely HATE it! I can't stand Gemini Man's 60p! I will try some tests if I can. Do you have any in particular?
..The LK990 DID NOT have better 3d. It was blurry as hell compared to the JVC which scales 3D properly....
I haven't really done anything with 3D, so this could very well be fact, but I do recall reading something from someone that they found a setting/fix, maybe @tnaik4 or 12GAGE?
...The LK990 DID NOT have better shadow detail.....
That I can almost say 100% would be false or at worst equal now with this Dolby Vision/LLDV tweak/mod/hack. At least down to its absolute laser black floor/level. One of the greatest improvements is how it now presents the low level shadow details and luminance steps in the HDR/DV video. I watched The Call of the Wild this weekend, converted and Dolby Vision processed from HDR10 to LLDV and one of the most astonishing things you see in the entire movie now are the low ADL/APL level night scenes in the Yukon!
I already wrote about how the way HDR video is mastered and with my setup now it is pretty much looking like there's no tone mapping (compression) needed in the main part of the movie, which is almost exclusively always in the below ~100 nits category. I think we ALL agree on this, no? This makes that part of the image look absolutely incredible and reveals things I had never seen before. Now all that is left is everything above the main movie image (100 thru 1,000/4,000/10,000 nits) that is to be tone mapped, for the specular highlights, etc. This is easily done with simply adjusting the contrast control, in combination with what ST2084 HDR curve is used and maybe a little brightness. Mine is setup using HDR Brightness (curve) -2 (out of 5 selections ranging from -2,-1,0,1,2) and contrast anywhere between 48-58 or so, depending on source content.
It appears as if you haven't read all my posts. Have you?
I have had these LKs for years now and practically work on them, experiment and test things nearly every single night for hours on end. I know them better than any one of you no matter what inexperienced narratives you guys are going to throw out here, that is what is FACT!
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Dave, what is your viewing environment like? I wonder if you're not seeing the massive difference the rest of us have seen because your room is limiting the performance of the projectors you've put up against the LK990. Do you have a room that soaks up stray light? I could see why someone would prefer the LK990 in a non-optomized room with all of its light output to counteract the issues with stray/reflected light within a room.
I have already answered that question when Mike asked it. Is every single post here by you guys going to keep showing that you don't even read what it is I am writing here?
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Kris brought in the LK based on what you were reporting. You had had the unit for a while. As for your settings, you posted them. Kris found where you posted your settings and used them. You then came back and said those were not your latest settings. Kris then asked you for your latest settings, telling you he would have the LK there for another week and you never sent the settings, even though Kris asked several times? The posts are still there.
I am bring this up, because you made the exact same statements then regarding image quality, that you are making now.
I didn't post them because they were on my former contract partner's email server and using his CalMAN licenses that I could no longer access. I tried to get access and was ignored by the server owner (That type of attitude is why I broke our contract agreement). I explained that at the time, so are you going to purposefully leave that part out to keep twisting this narrative to fit your agenda? Do you not recall the demeaning picture of Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible (from Javs?), repelling down into the server room with laser alarms all around, mocking me when I said this? I certainly do! >:(
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I don't believe Dave has had a JVC or Sony for that matter, the same time he has had one of the LK's. He had a defective 885 for a few days, but that was before any of the LK projectors.
I had a JVC RS600 shortly before that, then I had the Sony VW885ES at the same time I had an LK970 and after I saw the LK970 OVERALL compared to the VW885ES, I chose the LK970, mainly due to its price to performance ratio (less than half the price street).
The ONLY thing wrong with the 885 was the blue streaking issue, which you couldn't see in regular video and was only noticed when I opened a grid menu that had a white box around it and you could see the blue streaks above the white lettering. The reason I started a return was due it being a brand new unit and I wouldn't accept that issue on a brand new projector, as I don't think anyone here would either. I would have done a replacement had I not seen the LK970 and decided to keep that instead, again due to price/performance considerations, NOT because of the 885 blue streak issue.
I have explained this to you previously as well, so I am not sure why you continue to post this false narrative also?
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...... because the film industry is my career........
And Radio/TV Broadcasting, Commercial, Rental & Staging, calibration, teaching and home theater has been MY career for 30+ years, so this is why I wanted to talk to you with an open mind, but alas that will apparently never happen. :-\
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I have already answered that question when Mike asked it. Is every single post here by you guys going to keep showing that you don't even read what it is I am writing here?
Heck, I can't even remember the answer. Can you link to the post where you answeredthe question?
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Sigh...
I actually have no interest in arguing back and forth, I think I said all I needed to say earlier, simply read the post again if you wish, that was my stance months ago (I had that LK990 a full year ago now) and it still is now.
No, I havent read every post you ever wrote, nor do I care to... I just read the past few pages in here and chuckled that you are all still debating all this stuff.
Yes I kinda know what the LLDV hack is, I asked about it and read some stuff on the other forum. Sounds good, I am happy for you, but I dont need, nor have ANY interest in it because MadVR does everything I want. And no, I am not interested in testing it against MadVR, couldnt care less.
If you emailed me about it I would have said the same thing, I havent exactly been around on the forums too much because to be honest I am sick of the bitching from everyone, I have just been watching stuff and enjoying content (dont forget to do that), I dont care for the drama or minutae much any more. I have a second kid on the way, and I am trying to build a house, so my attention is definitely elsewhere for the better.
Sorry but roadio and tv broadcasting is not the 'artistic' side of film making. Roast me all you want for that comment but my day job is literally working with Directors on creative, so I could talk all day about creative intent and reasoning behind things like lenses, camera frame rates, shutter speeds, when and why to use them differently, grading, editing etc. That is always the aspect behind which I comment, in this care we talked about motion, I am incredibly sensitive to it because its used as a tool, and when I see motion that is not normal it throws me off, the LK did that. Plus you just admitted that you are not that sensitive to motion? You asked for a certain thing to test? Everything! I saw it instantly in all sources.
I used MadVR dynamic tone mapping on the LK... Something you seem to keep glossing over, again, read the first sentence of my previous post, because it stands 100% (about your settings invalidating everything).
I am not going to accept that the LK is capable of a lower black floor than what I saw, and measured, it just CANNOT, its a function of physics, if you found a way to make the Dimming more active, more of the time, thats great, but you are not going to convince me that it digs deeper than it did before.
However, if you can produce some actual data, then you could completely negate all of this banter, just put the measurements online and let them speak for themselves. Find content that supports your theory, measure the screen, measure the contrast... whatever. If people constantly didnt believe what I saw about something I would simply find data to back up my statements, the problem is you never ever post anything. And around we go?
One thing I have said in the past and I will say it again, stop reducing all this to some personal insult against yourself, dont take it all to heart like you are. I am sure you would be a most decent person to have a coke with in person...
Lastly, why do you even care what we think?
Admit it, you chuckled when I posted the Henry Cavill gif didn't you... I had a laugh posting it.
C'mon man, lighten up.
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Javs, I was talking with Kris Deering last week and I told him that not being able to post on the other forum has become a blessing in disguise. Like you, I'm over the back and forth endless arguing over things we thought were settled upon over a decade ago.
I'm only arguing with Dave because I don't want people to assume that the performance the LK990 offers is competitive with most other projectors near its price. It's just not in an overall sense. You're getting all that brightness at the cost of a lot of other things that most people find important.
I couldn't care less if a display is a little better at displaying some high nit specular highlights, especially if it's at the expense of a terrible black floor and subjective contrast performance. And this is only made worse when you factor in the amazing things current DTM software can do to an HDR image. 1000:1 native and up to 4500:1 dynamic contrast was terrible performance over a decade ago, so why should we be happy with a nearly 6 figure projector offering contrast that was bad by standards set over a decade ago, and even worse by today's?
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You talk like contrast is nothing. You know that ISF does not share that opinion.
Every year, after CEDIA someone always asks what was the best looking projector at CEDIA. For the last several years the answer has been an LCOS projector. CEDIA has DLP's there that are brighter, higher contrast and if cost is any indicator, better lenses and yet every year, they do not get the nod for best image at the show. Where DLP does get the nod is in light output.
The LK990 throws a sharp image, but LCOS is pretty good in that area also. Take a look here where Projector Central tested resolution of the RS2000 to the BenQ HT9060.https://www.projectorcentral.com/Projector-Resolution-Shootout-Part-2.htm (https://www.projectorcentral.com/Projector-Resolution-Shootout-Part-2.htm)
The LK990 may be sharper than the HT9060, but at this point we are splitting hairs, since everyone readily admits the HT9060 is very sharp. So you are trying to use light output as the big differentiator and I am using contrast. I believe ISF is on my side.
OK, riddle me this Bat(cave)man. When was that ISF study done and on what video technology was it performed with?
You don't have to answer, because it was rhetorical and we ALL know it was done using 100 nit SDR video signals on older SDR displays.
So how do you think this same study would turn out now using HDR10, HDR10+ and Dolby Vision, with much more levels of grey and colors at 1,000/4,000/10,000 nits, Mike? I know Dolby did an extensive study on similar attributes to come up with their Dolby Vision HDR system and I also know for a fact that the results showed differing preferences when HDR/DV was used than what that old antiquated ISF SDR study concluded using that old antiquated SDR video technology.
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Heck, I can't even remember the answer. Can you link to the post where you answeredthe question?
OK, here you go............
......Post #43 in the "Question About Contrast Ratio" thread on AVSF. And Markmon already has said repeatedly the contrast difference between the 4500 and the LK970 with your settings was laughable in dark scenes like space shots. If you don't believe me, I can dig up quotes. Everybody that has viewed an LK side by side with an RS2000 has come to the same conclusion. You argue against that conclusion and yet you have not compared the two side by side, much less side by side in a good blacked out room.
You can dig up all the quotes you want, but you are posting about the older LK970, which has neither HDR nor SmartEco Dynamic Laser Dimming support, not the LK990 which has both upgraded features and also which with I am discussing what it does and how it looks with Dolby Vision LLDV native and upconverted signals being displayed. So what you are posting is totally moot. How exactly do you know what room I have BTW? While it isn't a total bat cave, I do have black curtains I pull around the sides and front and it gets virtually pitch black when watching if I want, especially at night.
Sound familiar, Javs?
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Sigh...
I actually have no interest in arguing back and forth, I think I said all I needed to say earlier, simply read the post again if you wish, that was my stance months ago (I had that LK990 a full year ago now) and it still is now......
Oh, so your argument is that you're comparing what you saw using old tech a year ago, without using any of the new things being talked about and used today, so therefore you conclude it is the same without testing or seeing anything whatsoever? Gotcha!
If you have no interest, then why did you even come back and start posting your uninformed opinions on the matter? The ONLY conclusion to be deduced from that is that you simply came back and replied here to mock me then, to make me somehow look bad so you look good in front of your internet buddies. Sounds kind of immature, amateur high school to me.
....No, I havent read every post you ever wrote, nor do I care to... I just read the past few pages in here and chuckled that you are all still debating all this stuff......
That's what I was talking about, the last few pages since I came back to this LK990 THREAD. If you don't care to read it and contribute to the topic at hand, then you are just a troll and shouldn't be allowed to post in this thread.
"This stuff...." isn't even what I am talking about anyway. Maybe YOU guys are, but I am not and that's what you're all missing here.
...Yes I kinda know what the LLDV hack is, I asked about it and read some stuff on the other forum. Sounds good, I am happy for you, but I dont need, nor have ANY interest in it because MadVR does everything I want. And no, I am not interested in testing it against MadVR, couldnt care less......
Again, then why are you here, because that is what this is about, LLDV on the LK990 and how it looks and how it is improved over prior results using HDR10 or tone mapped SDRBT2020.
....If you emailed me about it I would have said the same thing, I havent exactly been around on the forums too much because to be honest I am sick of the bitching from everyone, I have just been watching stuff and enjoying content (dont forget to do that), I dont care for the drama or minutae much any more. I have a second kid on the way, and I am trying to build a house, so my attention is definitely elsewhere for the better.....
Then why do you come on here blindly with nothing to add, only fanning the flames of discourse for no other reason than to cause havoc and mock the only poster here who is actually on topic and on point for this thread and what is being discussed?
....Sorry but roadio and tv broadcasting is not the 'artistic' side of film making. Roast me all you want for that comment but my day job is literally working with Directors on creative, so I could talk all day about creative intent and reasoning behind things like lenses, camera frame rates, shutter speeds, when and why to use them differently, grading, editing etc. That is always the aspect behind which I comment, in this care we talked about motion, I am incredibly sensitive to it because its used as a tool, and when I see motion that is not normal it throws me off, the LK did that. Plus you just admitted that you are not that sensitive to motion? You asked for a certain thing to test? Everything! I saw it instantly in all sources.....
Who ever said I was "roasting you" for that comment? I was merely replying that I too have many years of experience, in response to your post insinuating that I didn't.
I wasn't saying I don't know what good motion is, just that what I saw on the LK970 and LK990 didn't bother me as it seems it does you and others, which is all well and good. This is akin to being sensitive to DLP rainbows. I am not sensitive to them, but I can see them when induced and I understand if some are more sensitive to them than I and then choose not to get a DLP which has them.
There are motion test patterns Javs, you know what I was talking about. If I am not totally sensitive to motion like you are, then a good test pattern to see them is a good way for me to understand what it is you see. Do you respond in such an aloof, condescending way when someone also asks the same type of question to see RBE effects if they're not sensitive to them?
...I used MadVR dynamic tone mapping on the LK... Something you seem to keep glossing over, again, read the first sentence of my previous post, because it stands 100% (about your settings invalidating everything)....
So was that dynamic tone mapping SDR/BT2020, or Dolby Vision BT2020? If SDR BT2020, then I am not glossing anything over. You are ignoring what the actual new topic is and only talking about something from a year ago. Old news dude, sorry.
....I am not going to accept that the LK is capable of a lower black floor than what I saw, and measured, it just CANNOT, its a function of physics, if you found a way to make the Dimming more active, more of the time, thats great, but you are not going to convince me that it digs deeper than it did before.....
The lasers can and do go to full blackout Javs. This allows and forces the levels from where you saw the dark grey "black floor" down to the total laser cutoff to be more prominently displayed. It appears as if ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR that their algorithms are weird or something, because when you input a 0% black field pattern, the image on screen is indeed a higher level and appears dark grey and not more inky black. But in actual video content, especially with HDR and using their ST2084 curves, in this instance the HDR Brighness curve of -2, its lowest setting with the least amount of tone mapping BTW, the black levels go lower and much closer to full laser cutoff, in many more steps which the dynamic attributes of Dolby Vision really seem to take advantage of. Just ask @12GAGE and @tnaik4 and they will confirm the same thing, at least where HDR was concerned and it is even better with LLDV now. 12GAGE did a test on this very thing, showing the laser power was actually higher when fed a 0% black signal than it would go with real, dynamically changing video sources. I believe it has something to do with the Automatic Power Control feature and its algorithms, which weren't specifically designed for just video content on this commercial projector.
I saw an explanation one time trying to explain laser cutoff and how some projector manufacturers didn't create their algorithms properly so that they didn't have a cliff effect from the final black level being displayed through complete laser shutoff. It likened it to walking down a flight of stairs, where the last stair step is 10 feet high off the floor, when instead there should be many more stair steps between that last one and the floor so you don't abruptly fall 10 feet, flat on your face.
What I am talking about now is the addition of those "stair steps to the floor".
....However, if you can produce some actual data, then you could completely negate all of this banter, just put the measurements online and let them speak for themselves. Find content that supports your theory, measure the screen, measure the contrast... whatever. If people constantly didnt believe what I saw about something I would simply find data to back up my statements, the problem is you never ever post anything. And around we go?.....
I have indeed posted numbers and charts before, Javs. Just ask Bobof, because he commented on them and we went round and round on it as well. Others have also posted numbers and charts.
Even SMPTE says numbers and science do not nor ever will convey what is actually seen when using a display device to render real world images. They aren't even engineered to do so and if they are, often times the image on screen is worse than when other factors are considered and engineered in. I also posted about this a few pages back, which you seemed to ignore as well.
I just recently got an i1Pro2 spectro, but my issue is finding a good test pattern source that can be displayed and represent what it is that this LLDV hack is doing. There is no precedent for this. I no longer have the Murideo Six G generator, but I do have R. Masciola and Spears & Munsil patterns. I just have to figure out which ones will work with what I am doing.
....One thing I have said in the past and I will say it again, stop reducing all this to some personal insult against yourself, dont take it all to heart like you are. I am sure you would be a most decent person to have a coke with in person...
I am not the one making it personal, the comments and the way they're worded with ridicule and condescension are what causes that. If you all stopped responding that way and rather responded with real questions wanting to get to the bottom of this and to understand it, then this would have always been a much better, real conversation back and forth from all respected individuals for what each brings to the table with their knowledge and expertise. You all talk to me here like I am an idiot and don't understand any of this, which is utter nonsense and I can almost guarantee I know more than many here, that's for sure based on some of the responses! Try talking to me like a peer and not some new amateur hobbyist on AVS and maybe then I will feel respected and what I say, while you may not agree, has some merit. I helped make AVS what it was back in the day with CRTs, etc. I am NOT some damned newbie that should be talked to that way! >:(
The bottom line is you are all wrong here and it can be shown. All I have to do is come back to the mainland USA with my LK990, HDFury Vertex2, AppleTV 4K and Sony X800M2 and prove it. These are the biggest hurdles though... distance, time and money. Every single one of those factor in at different times which block this from happening. I am in the process of moving back though, then it will be much easier to do this.
I am about to also do a YouTube video about this LLDV hack with another home theater professional who is both ISF and THX Certified and has their own YouTube channel. They are a BenQ dealer so hopefully can get hold of an LK990 to try this on so we can also get his professional opinion on the matter. He also is a dealer for Barco and just got a Balder, so hopefully he can try it on that as well.
....Lastly, why do you even care what we think?
Admit it, you chuckled when I posted the Henry Cavill gif didn't you... I had a laugh posting it....
I don't care anymore. I see the true colors now (pun intended). I have no further trust in the views and opinions expressed by most of the "pros" anymore. They are too biased and too much elitism is being shown.
No I didn't chuckle. Did you chuckle when I posted before about your avatar there, Wolverine? You got pretty pissed as I recall. Maybe you should just lighten up too, man!
...C'mon man, lighten up.
Easy for you to say when you aren't the one mocked and ridiculed and treated as an incompetent idiot and "clown". :-\
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As I said, I am not interested in arguing... Enjoy your life Dave.
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As I said, I am not interested in arguing... Enjoy your life Dave.
Then don’t help create an argument where there shouldn’t be one.
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Then don’t help create an argument where there shouldn’t be one.
You and Dylan were doing just fine at that before me.
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You and Dylan were doing just fine at that before me.
So what was your point for joining in if you had no interest and didn’t care, other than the reasons I deduced in my prior post?
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So what was your point for joining in if you had no interest and didn’t care, other than the reasons I deduced in my prior post?
Well, I was actually posting on topic. They were my impressions on the LK990.
Thats it.
Why dont you get on topic yourself and stop going into personal crap calling me a troll etc. Not nice Dave.
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Javs, I was talking with Kris Deering last week and I told him that not being able to post on the other forum has become a blessing in disguise. Like you, I'm over the back and forth endless arguing over things we thought were settled upon over a decade ago.
I'm only arguing with Dave because I don't want people to assume that the performance the LK990 offers is competitive with most other projectors near its price. It's just not in an overall sense. You're getting all that brightness at the cost of a lot of other things that most people find important.
I couldn't care less if a display is a little better at displaying some high nit specular highlights, especially if it's at the expense of a terrible black floor and subjective contrast performance. And this is only made worse when you factor in the amazing things current DTM software can do to an HDR image. 1000:1 native and up to 4500:1 dynamic contrast was terrible performance over a decade ago, so why should we be happy with a nearly 6 figure projector offering contrast that was bad by standards set over a decade ago, and even worse by today's?
This is completely false and total rubbish.
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Well, I was actually posting on topic. They were my impressions on the LK990.
Thats it......
How are impressions from a year ago, not related in the slightest to what’s being discussed now, except for the projector itself, on the current topic? You’re giving opinions on something you’ve never seen.
Would it be OK for me to go into a thread for the RS600, which I saw awhile ago and passed judgement on, and complain that it looks like crap and can’t look good now when MadVR, a Radiance Pro or Envy was now added, without ever seeing the end results of that?
...Why dont you get on topic yourself and stop going into personal crap calling me a troll etc. Not nice Dave.
Nice deflection and redirection flipping it all around to try to make you the victim here!
What you did was the very definition of a troll Javs and you know it. You came to this thread again with ONE purpose in mind and it’s very clear! You posted nothing that had any bearing whatsoever on the current topic and discussion and only posted to once again make me look the fool and you being “one of the cool guys”.
Take care everyone. It’s not worth my time or effort here any longer. Once again I was mistaken.
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How are impressions from a year ago, not related in the slightest to what’s being discussed now, except for the projector itself, on the current topic? You’re giving opinions on something you’ve never seen.
Would it be OK for me to go into a thread for the RS600, which I saw awhile ago and passed judgement on, and complain that it looks like crap and can’t look good now when MadVR, a Radiance Pro or Envy was now added, without ever seeing the end results of that?
Nice deflection and redirection flipping it all around to try to make you the victim here!
What you did was the very definition of a troll Javs and you know it. You came to this thread again with ONE purpose in mind and it’s very clear! You posted nothing that had any bearing whatsoever on the current topic and discussion and only posted to once again make me look the fool and you being “one of the cool guys”.
Take care everyone. It’s not worth my time or effort here any longer. Once again I was mistaken.
That's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black, Dave. You've made proclamations on performance without having seen other hardware as well.
By the way, yes, you could go into the RS600 thread and state that stock HDR performance looks like "crap" compared to what a Lumagen or HTPC with madVR can do for that projector. That is pretty much an objective truth on the matter. That's how much of a difference DTM makes, especially with how the software has matured. It's leaps and bounds better than it has ever looked. Maybe you should wait on making claims about your LLDV hack's performance before you see how these other solutions work.
As you've said in a previous post, you're just going to have to come to the mainland US and prove us wrong. If that day comes, I'll gladly show up to see what your LK990 can do. If we're blown away with what we see, I will be the first to publicly state that I was wrong.
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How are impressions from a year ago, not related in the slightest to what’s being discussed now, except for the projector itself, on the current topic? You’re giving opinions on something you’ve never seen.
Would it be OK for me to go into a thread for the RS600, which I saw awhile ago and passed judgement on, and complain that it looks like crap and can’t look good now when MadVR, a Radiance Pro or Envy was now added, without ever seeing the end results of that?
Nice deflection and redirection flipping it all around to try to make you the victim here!
What you did was the very definition of a troll Javs and you know it. You came to this thread again with ONE purpose in mind and it’s very clear! You posted nothing that had any bearing whatsoever on the current topic and discussion and only posted to once again make me look the fool and you being “one of the cool guys”.
Take care everyone. It’s not worth my time or effort here any longer. Once again I was mistaken.
Dave, What is the title of this thread? It is LK990 first impressions. You can't tell people that they are off topic when they are on topic. You do not control this forum nor this thread. If you want to limit a thread to just discussion of LK990 with LLDV hack, then start a thread with that topic. Also calling someone a troll just because you do not like what they posted, (post was not an attack on you and was on topic) is not cool and will get you banned.
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That's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black, Dave. You've made proclamations on performance without having seen other hardware as well.
By the way, yes, you could go into the RS600 thread and state that stock HDR performance looks like "crap" compared to what a Lumagen or HTPC with madVR can do for that projector. That is pretty much an objective truth on the matter. That's how much of a difference DTM makes, especially with how the software has matured. It's leaps and bounds better than it has ever looked. Maybe you should wait on making claims about your LLDV hack's performance before you see how these other solutions work.
As you've said in a previous post, you're just going to have to come to the mainland US and prove us wrong. If that day comes, I'll gladly show up to see what your LK990 can do. If we're blown away with what we see, I will be the first to publicly state that I was wrong.
Wow, I don't think anyone could have ever misread, misinterpreted and misunderstood what I actually posted and meant more than the bolded above. Now I understand what the issues are here, so it is fruitless for me to continue as I said.
I am in actuality praising DTM, the Lumagen, MadVR and LLDV Dylan! We are actually saying the same thing and you totally misunderstood what I wrote, as always! Let me try to clarify:
All I said was, I experienced the RS600 a few years ago WITHOUT something like a Radiance Pro or MadVR, etc. Therefore I would never and should never go into an RS600 thread and say something like..."I saw the RS600 a few years ago without the Radiance Pro and it looked like crap, so since it looked like crap then without the RP, I deduce it looks like crap now, even though a Radiance Pro with DTM has since been added", to increase its overall performance......
All you have to do is replace "RS600" and "Radiance Pro/MadVR" with "LK990" and "HDFury LLDV Hack" and you'll see what it is I am saying that someone like Javs is doing here! Let me also do that right now, just to avoid anymore confusion with interpretation:
..."I saw the Benq LK990 a few years ago without the LLDV Hack and it looked like crap, so since it looked like crap then without the LLDV Hack, I deduce it looks like crap now, even though a Vertex2 allowing the LLDV Hack with native Dolby Vision and DTM capability has since been added", to increase its overall performance......
Better?
Please post links where I have made "proclamations on performance" on things that I have not seen or experienced personally. I would love to read them so I can see if they're just more total misunderstanding as well.
Let me try to figure it out:
1. DTM? Nope, I had it with my Radiance Pro and have only commented based on its performance I saw at the time.
2. MadVR? Nope, never saw it and also never commented on it's performance, but did say I'm sure it's amazing. In fact I said I would love to build a MadVR PC but just didn't want to deal with it at this stage. I actually would have if I hadn't discovered the LLDV hack. That was my next move actually.
3. JVC Frame Adapt? Nope, never saw it and also never commented on it's performance.
4. JVC RS3000 or RS4500? Nope, never saw them and also never commented on their performance, other than saying the 4500 was my dream projector (based on specs and what I'd read) and that I wished I had the funds to get one.
5. JVC blacks/contrast? Nope, I have always stated I agreed they're superior in every way, when taken alone as a subset of total overall performance. This is actually the basis for me saying that the RS4500 is my dream projector at the moment (Eclipse not withstanding of course!), because the RS4500 basically has all the advantages I love and see with the LK990, with the added benefit of even better blacks and contrast. Right now the added benefit of JVC blacks and contrast coupled with such low lumen levels, less detail, etc. do not outweigh the other, better attributes I see on the LK990, when setup and used correctly of course. The RS4500 gives essentially everything, just with a little less total light availability, but I don't believe that will be noticed as much in real world content.
6. LLDV? Nope, I never said it was superior to any other DTM solution out there other than adding native Dolby Vision capabilities. I only said it is better than using static curves, HDR10, SDR/BT2020, etc. I always have come from the standpoint that LLDV is an alternative which can be used in place of the other higher priced and more complicated solutions presented with the Lumagen Radiance Pro, Envy, MadVR, buying a brand new JVC with FA, and also with the added benefit of being able to play native Dolby Vision sources on your HDR10 only display. I present this as a solution for those who otherwise do not have the budget or inclination to hassle with a PC in their home theaters. I also presented this as a great use in combination with what the LK990 can do. They seem to work very symbiotically together for some reason. This can be confirmed by the comments made by others who have tried the same settings (10,000 nits custom DV String Data Block, etc.) on other projectors and reported different and less satisfying results.
Did I miss anything?
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Dave, What is the title of this thread? It is LK990 first impressions. You can't tell people that they are off topic when they are on topic. You do not control this forum nor this thread. If you want to limit a thread to just discussion of LK990 with LLDV hack, then start a thread with that topic. Also calling someone a troll just because you do not like what they posted, (post was not an attack on you and was on topic) is not cool and will get you banned.
Yep, and those were his "first impressions" from a year ago, not now, yet he is using those "first impressions" to judge what it is I am doing and saying now, which is completely different!
Coming in and posting impressions on something that isn't even the current topic at hand is the very definition of a troll in this instance. He already gave his "first impressions" a year ago, and they no longer apply. If he had framed it in that context then OK, but he didn't. He judged what I have been saying NOW with this new technology and based it on what he saw a year ago with his "first impressions" of the LK990.
Just read what I just wrote to Dylan. If I had come into your RS1000/RS2000/RS3000 thread here and proclaimed "I saw one of those WITHOUT a Radiance Pro a year ago, so therefore I conclude it is no better off now WITH a Radiance Pro with DTM", you and everyone here would pounce on me like a hungry pack of wolverines and try to "educate me" on how stupid I and the statement I made was. Don't deny it either, because it is true and we see it happen all the time! I have not, did not and never will do that. So as I said to Dylan, this is equivalent to what Javs is doing here.
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Yep, and those were his "first impressions" from a year ago, not now, yet he is using those "first impressions" to judge what it is I am doing and saying now, which is completely different!
Coming in and posting impressions on something that isn't even the current topic at hand is the very definition of a troll in this instance. He already gave his "first impressions" a year ago, and they no longer apply. If he had framed it in that context then OK, but he didn't. He judged what I have been saying NOW with this new technology and based it on what he saw a year ago with his "first impressions" of the LK990.
Just read what I just wrote to Dylan. If I had come into your RS1000/RS2000/RS3000 thread here and proclaimed "I saw one of those WITHOUT a Radiance Pro a year ago, so therefore I conclude it is no better off now WITH a Radiance Pro with DTM", you and everyone here would pounce on me like a hungry pack of wolverines and try to "educate me" on how stupid I and the statement I made was. Don't deny it either, because it is true and we see it happen all the time! I have not, did not and never will do that. So as I said to Dylan, this is equivalent to what Javs is doing here.
Let me clarify some stuff then, which is what prompted me joining this thread in the first place, there is one thing I read which shows a gross misunderstanding on what Dynamic Tone MAPPING is. Look up the meaning of the word mapping and then remember that in your glossy explanations of what your LLDV hack does.
Firstly though, as Mike said, dont tell me where I can post, you dont own this thread, you just spent the last 15 pages or so hijacking it and sitting on anyone that you didnt agree with. Drop the god complex.If you dont agree with me, then construct a response or present data to counter it.
Yeah, you could absiolutely go in those RS600 threads and state that they have crap HDR, because its true, HOWEVER what you left out is that MadVR is a tool just like LLDV and you would look like nothing like an uninformed dick if you went in there and spewed that in a thread without making the correlation that nobody is using them in their stock form anymore weather they use the Panasonic, MadVR, LLDV or the like, in that respect your comments would indeed be useless. BUT THATS NOT WHAT I DID ON THE LK, is it?.
First, its FAR from COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, its actually remarkably IDENTICAL in nature.
You said this:
See, you are fundamentally not understanding or reading what I wrote. "Settings" was probably a bad choice of words, but I have posted what I am talking about numerous times here now.
It isn't the settings I use, per se'. It is the very real difference it makes to the resultant image (on the LK990 specifically) when you change the custom DV Data Data block (do you understand what that is?) from something like what you'd think it should be, like the max nits of your display or a known custom tone curve like 1,000 nits, to basically telling the source to be "wide open" and send all its got with a custom 10,000 nit (notice the extra zero? Perhaps you hadn't before?) max luminance (nits) setting in the HDF. That, along with sending the full native Dolby Vision essentially is like using a whole new technology when compared to the "old way" of doing it with custom or straight 1,000 nit HDR curves or converting from HDR BT2020 to SDR BT2020, while only being able to feed it HDR10, not full native dolby vision.
So, the technology changed here too. It used to use straight HDR, tone mapped to the LK990 using an equivalent HDR curve to match the parameters of the tone map being used. Then you just used the available settings in the LK990 and UB820 to create the best image possible with what you have.
Now it uses an HDFury Vertex2 (*new technology), Dolby Vision/LLDV (*new technology discovery for any HDR display), Custom DV Data Block (*new adjustable technology) using the least aggressive and most wide open HDR tone curve available on the LK990 so as to allow the purest HDR/DV signal to pass through almost unmolested, with the exception of what you tweak into a correct state based on the source material, using the contrast (sometimes) and brightness (once).
You apprarenty dont understand AT ALL what dynamic tone mapping really is, its actually everything you just said its not! COMPLETE OPPOSITE. Its not some half power curve.
Its quite iterally using the maximum throughput available in contrast per frame based on your input settings, it knows the brightness of your display because you TELL IT, you can feed it HDR output too if you like, you can use it on OLEDs with 800 nits, whatever you like, its very dynamic and adaptable, it just so happens that for projectors its usually best to use the SDR translation which is NOTHING OTHER THAN A CONTAINER from ZERO TO ONE, dont over complicate something so simple!
You cannot fill a cup which is already full.
10,000 nits ceiling or 600 nits tone mapped to max contrast are BOTH THE SAME according to any display which does not do 10,000 nits.
As I understand it from everything I read by speaking to calm indiviuduals, LLDV seems to be doing something similar, its sending a DV HDR signal (which is nothing other than a name) that maps the max frame contrast to the top of the container so long as thats how the director encoded it (which is its actual function), its like a new curve for every frame, AM I WRONG? I domt think so.
This the thing you are jumping up and down so hard about with LLDV. Since they are almost THE SAME THING by definition then you will understand why I DONT CARE, because a year ago, I TESTED IT on the LK990 in both HDR and SDR modes. I had to use HDR output with MadVR (STILL DYNAMIC) also to get BT2020 (or whatever approximation of it the machine was capable) and yes I had to set the HDR slider in the BenQ up or down to make it work and not harsh I dont remember which, its irrelevant, but the point is, I had frame by frame tone mapping just like you do. EVEN if its 95% the same as what you had and your LLDV hack is 5% better which I SERIOUSLY doubt, then what right do you have to steamroll everyone and say they havent seen your god like setup?
Since you havent had much experience with DTM at all (Lumagen took a long time to get truly good), you are getting a taste of it now and you are so excited by it that you take offence to the smallest of things. Well, we have all been using it for quite some time, the excitement has wore off because we all know that no matter what the display is, we can get the same exact HDR image if we choose which is 100% optimised to how its intended to be viewed.. We have been helping develop DTM in MadVR for 2 years now as a community, we certainly dont jump down the throats of others who we disagree with.
6. LLDV? Nope, I never said it was superior to any other DTM solution out there other than adding native Dolby Vision capabilities. I only said it is better than using static curves, HDR10, SDR/BT2020, etc. I always have come from the standpoint that LLDV is an alternative which can be used in place of the other higher priced and more complicated solutions presented with the Lumagen Radiance Pro, Envy, MadVR, buying a brand new JVC with FA, and also with the added benefit of being able to play native Dolby Vision sources on your HDR10 only display. I present this as a solution for those who otherwise do not have the budget or inclination to hassle with a PC in their home theaters. I also presented this as a great use in combination with what the LK990 can do. They seem to work very symbiotically together for some reason. This can be confirmed by the comments made by others who have tried the same settings (10,000 nits custom DV String Data Block, etc.) on other projectors and reported different and less satisfying results.
GREAT, so have the decency to accept that others have used this 'other, not superior' DTM solution with the LK990 and THUS their observations are in fact VERY VALID. This ends the debate! Why are you getting so uptight when you already admit its likely not better, because how could it be when they both do very similar things.
LASTLY, the contrast on the LK is crap, dont be personally offended by this objective fact. There is no way around this, this is my problem with it. If you gave me the exact same machine with at a minimum 10k native and 20-30k dynamic, it would be a very different conversation, but no, its contrast is 10x lower than that, thus its just not enough. It looked great on very bright scenes, REALLY GREAT, but that was not enough as a whole sum of its parts, it was too jarring with things like Game of Thrones which was on at the time, The Star Trek show, and never did I say it crushed blacks, I said it was tough to make out gradations down there (Kris said the same - are you saying he doesnt know what hes doing either) because the contrast down there is so bad that the steps all appear basically grey and the black floor makes it difficult to differentiate them, in that respect it has bad shadow detail, Kris also said this - I have never even met him, nor Dylan, yet we come to the same conclusions. Woofer had an LK970 so dont bring his observations into it, however he said the same about shadow detail and even posted pics showing how bad it was.
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Let me clarify some stuff then, which is what prompted me joining this thread in the first place, there is one thing I read which shows a gross misunderstanding on what Dynamic Tone MAPPING is. Look up the meaning of the word mapping and then remember that in your glossy explanations of what your LLDV hack does.
Firstly though, as Mike said, dont tell me where I can post, you dont own this thread, you just spent the last 15 pages or so hijacking it and sitting on anyone that you didnt agree with. Drop the god complex.If you dont agree with me, then construct a response or present data to counter it....
Trust me, I know what dynamic tone mapping is. Those aren't "glossy explanations" of what LLDV or DTM is, I am simply stating what it does, as I have said a million times, ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR! Yes, I am sure that DTM from a Radiance Pro, Envy, MadVR would give similar benefit, as I have also stated many times. It is and never was a fight over that and which is better really. Just read my reply to Dylan to see. Did you read that, or just come here and post this without doing so? The fundamental differences I am pointing out between LLDV and DTM when using Radiance Pro, MadVR, etc. is that first off, I don't convert HDR to an SDR container, hence I'm using THE LK990's ST2084 HDR MODE, and not it's SDR modes, which are inferior ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR as I have said countless times as well. The next advantage is that we can now play the native Dolby Vision version of the video source, which EVERYONE KNOWS is superior to its HDR10 counterpart, or at least anyone that knows anything about HDR anyway.
These two fundamental differences are what makes this completely different than last time and what you're saying now being compared to before.
So tell me how defending my position that the LK990 does not look like what you're portraying it to look like, at least when I do it the way I am speaking of, is me having a "God Complex"? This quote below is what I am arguing and defending Javs, nothing more, and you are wrong:
....LASTLY, the contrast on the LK is crap, dont be personally offended by this objective fact. There is no way around this, this is my problem with it. If you gave me the exact same machine with at a minimum 10k native and 20-30k dynamic, it would be a very different conversation, but no, its contrast is 10x lower than that, thus its just not enough. It looked great on very bright scenes, REALLY GREAT, but that was not enough as a whole sum of its parts, it was too jarring with things like Game of Thrones which was on at the time, The Star Trek show, and never did I say it crushed blacks, I said it was tough to make out gradations down there (Kris said the same - are you saying he doesnt know what hes doing either) because the contrast down there is so bad that the steps all appear basically grey and the black floor makes it difficult to differentiate them, in that respect it has bad shadow detail, Kris also said this - I have never even met him, nor Dylan, yet we come to the same conclusions. Woofer had an LK970 so dont bring his observations into it, however he said the same about shadow detail and even posted pics showing how bad it was.
I see this every single day and it is NOT presented the way you're describing it. As a matter of funny fact, my entire family has been watching all 8 seasons of Game of Thrones and we don't see what you're describing at all with this LLDV setup ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR. I can certainly replicate what you're describing by switching to SDR, turning off LLDV, taking the Vertex2 out of the loop, tone mapping HDR/BT2020 to SDR/BT2020, but why would I do that when it is so inferior and looks as bad as you're describing it? This in effect proves what I am saying!
In fact, when I played Season 8 on UHD Bluray with native Dolby Vision (the other seasons were just SDR HD from HBO Go, converted to LLDV), it was ever better in the black level/shadow detail/contrast department. Even my ignorant to video family noticed this and made an unprovoked comment about it.
Someone else trying the LLDV hack for the first time also commented about this low level detail improvement when they compared regular HDR10 to LLDV. See quote below. That is what I am saying improves this ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR. I am sure this is the same as what you're doing with DTM, but again, you aren't starting with a native DV source or processing.
Thank you for this recommendation. I finally got around to comparing the opening 10 minutes of "Black Panther ".
LLDV does appear to give more contrast. The "sand people" generated at the beginning in B&W appear to be more 3 dimensional than they do in HDR10. Similarly, with the kids playing basketball at night in the capark. The tonal gradations of the night sky against the lights shining on the kids again give the scene more depth in LLDV.
It looks similar to comparing gamma 2.2 vs 2.4 in SDR.
Another added bonus appears to be the specular highlights of the gold necklaces worn by two characters in the planning room have a bit more luminance.
I can now see a difference between GENUINE LLDV and HDR10 on my JVC.
More testing to be done with material from the Oppo converting HDR10 to LLDV.
See my YouTube video link at the end of this post.
...Yeah, you could absiolutely go in those RS600 threads and state that they have crap HDR, because its true, HOWEVER what you left out is that MadVR is a tool just like LLDV and you would look like nothing like an uninformed dick if you went in there and spewed that in a thread without making the correlation that nobody is using them in their stock form anymore weather they use the Panasonic, MadVR, LLDV or the like, in that respect your comments would indeed be useless. BUT THATS NOT WHAT I DID ON THE LK, is it?.....
OK, then we agree because that's exactly what I said too. I didn't leave that out at all. In fact I used the Radiance Pro as my basis instead of MadVR, but they're both tools right? Again, did you actually read my reply to Dylan where I said this?
...First, its FAR from COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, its actually remarkably IDENTICAL in nature....
It IS completely different. I am starting with either a native Dolby Vision source video file, or one that is processed using the Dolby Vision processing algorithms (HDR10, SDR HD, etc.) in the source device. You are starting with HDR10 (inferior to DV), SDR HD and then processing that inferior (to DV) signal with great processing such as the Radiance Pro or MadVR, which does the best it can with with that inferior (to DV) signal, which in the end certainly does look quite amazing though, I agree. It is the extra low level details, color capabilities, etc. of DV which make this solution better than what I saw with the Radiance Pro ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR. That is my point in all this Javs, which you in fact have not seen.
Why doesn't someone try connecting an HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro in between their source device like a UHD Bluray player capable of LLDV and their Radiance Pro? This way you could use the native DV on the disc, convert to LLDV, send as what appears as normal HDR10 into the Radiance Pro, and then let it do whatever it does to see what the end result is? It may very well be better than sending HDR10, or for DV discs, just the HDR10 layer. Who knows, but it could show what it is I AM talking about here and you can see maybe the benefits of native DV vs HDR10.
....You said this:
You apprarenty dont understand AT ALL what dynamic tone mapping really is, its actually everything you just said its not! COMPLETE OPPOSITE. Its not some half power curve.
Its quite iterally using the maximum throughput available in contrast per frame based on your input settings, it knows the brightness of your display because you TELL IT, you can feed it HDR output too if you like, you can use it on OLEDs with 800 nits, whatever you like, its very dynamic and adaptable, it just so happens that for projectors its usually best to use the SDR translation which is NOTHING OTHER THAN A CONTAINER from ZERO TO ONE, dont over complicate something so simple!
You cannot fill a cup which is already full.
10,000 nits ceiling or 600 nits tone mapped to max contrast are BOTH THE SAME according to any display which does not do 10,000 nits.
As I understand it from everything I read by speaking to calm indiviuduals, LLDV seems to be doing something similar, its sending a DV HDR signal (which is nothing other than a name) that maps the max frame contrast to the top of the container so long as thats how the director encoded it (which is its actual function), its like a new curve for every frame, AM I WRONG? I domt think so.
This the thing you are jumping up and down so hard about with LLDV. Since they are almost THE SAME THING by definition then you will understand why I DONT CARE, because a year ago, I TESTED IT on the LK990 in both HDR and SDR modes. I had to use HDR output with MadVR (STILL DYNAMIC) also to get BT2020 (or whatever approximation of it the machine was capable) and yes I had to set the HDR slider in the BenQ up or down to make it work and not harsh I dont remember which, its irrelevant, but the point is, I had frame by frame tone mapping just like you do. EVEN if its 95% the same as what you had and your LLDV hack is 5% better which I SERIOUSLY doubt, then what right do you have to steamroll everyone and say they havent seen your god like setup?
Since you havent had much experience with DTM at all (Lumagen took a long time to get truly good), you are getting a taste of it now and you are so excited by it that you take offence to the smallest of things. Well, we have all been using it for quite some time, the excitement has wore off because we all know that no matter what the display is, we can get the same exact HDR image if we choose which is 100% optimised to how its intended to be viewed.. We have been helping develop DTM in MadVR for 2 years now as a community, we certainly dont jump down the throats of others who we disagree with.
GREAT, so have the decency to accept that others have used this 'other, not superior' DTM solution with the LK990 and THUS their observations are in fact VERY VALID. This ends the debate! Why are you getting so uptight when you already admit its likely not better, because how could it be when they both do very similar things.....
Oh, I know what DTM is Javs, don't worry about that. I described why this is different already in the reply to the paragraph above when using DV processing.
What you seem to be failing to grasp is that the main difference is that all the tone mapping, DV processing, etc. is being done in the source player (Sony X800M2, AppleTV 4K, etc.). This then is sent to the LK990 which is setup with a static, as big as possible, HDR ST2084 curve (HDR BRightness -2), so in essence is what you're saying but the difference is it's a "static curve container" for the "dynamic LLDV/tone mapping", rather than a static SDR gamma curve, like you did with the likes of MadVR and Radiance Pro. This is why I am saying it is so different ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR, which has inferior SDR modes compared to when using HDR ST2084 ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR
I am not jumping down anyone's throat other than to disagree and defend the fact of how you're describing the low level performance when using LLDV with an HDR ST2084 curve ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR, which in fact no, you haven't seen or experienced.
I have asked this before with no response. How would you describe the LK990's black level performance, based on these two choices in this YouTube video? You must pick one which you feel it is most like. Please be honest:
https://youtu.be/2nN_wJpno2M
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Crikey!
What'd I miss??
(https://media.giphy.com/media/fGUbHqMMmqya2kbAwd/source.gif)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohs4tKADK8HEYD4I0/source.gif)
I don't know, but this first post here by you in reply to what we are talking about now certainly seems to be quite confrontational and appears that you came in looking for a fight, no? How else was I supposed to take that, especially given our history?
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I don't know, but this first post here by you in reply to what we are talking about now certainly seems to be quite confrontational and appears that you came in looking for a fight, no? How else was I supposed to take that, especially given our history?
Clearly with a grain of salt...
If you dont want me to comment, DONT name drop me as you did once or twice in this thread.
It was heated before I got here...
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Trust me, I know what dynamic tone mapping is. Those aren't "glossy explanations" of what LLDV or DTM is, I am simply stating what it does, as I have said a million times, ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR! Yes, I am sure that DTM from a Radiance Pro, Envy, MadVR would give similar benefit, as I have also stated many times. It is and never was a fight over that and which is better really.
Well you are still a little unsure on it that's clear below...
Just read my reply to Dylan to see. Did you read that, or just come here and post this without doing so?
Is that really necessary to say?
The fundamental differences I am pointing out between LLDV and DTM when using Radiance Pro, MadVR, etc. is that first off, I don't convert HDR to an SDR container, hence I'm using THE LK990's ST2084 HDR MODE, and not it's SDR modes, which are inferior ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR as I have said countless times as well.
I did that too! I stated it half a dozen times including a year ago, what, you think I just tried one setting and called it crap? I did every possible video signal chain combination to get MadVR and HDR working its best on the LK990, I WANTED it to look good. I too fed it HDR and put the HDR brightness down a click or two.
THEREFORE its not a difference, is it.
The next advantage is that we can now play the native Dolby Vision version of the video source, which EVERYONE KNOWS is superior to its HDR10 counterpart, or at least anyone that knows anything about HDR anyway.
These two fundamental differences are what makes this completely different than last time and what you're saying now being compared to before.
What, the one in 10 discs with actual Dolby Vision? Don't call the LLDV hack 'native' Dolby Vision, its NOT. Its a spoof.
I see this every single day and it is NOT presented the way you're describing it. As a matter of funny fact, my entire family has been watching all 8 seasons of Game of Thrones and we don't see what you're describing at all with this LLDV setup ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR. I can certainly replicate what you're describing by switching to SDR, turning off LLDV, taking the Vertex2 out of the loop, tone mapping HDR/BT2020 to SDR/BT2020, but why would I do that when it is so inferior and looks as bad as you're describing it? This in effect proves what I am saying!
Purely subjective... How are either of us supposed to quantify this, you are assuming you are seeing something different to me, yet we are both verbally describing something. Its useless without empirical data. MEASURE THE ON SCREEN CONTRAST if you are so sure its better. It should be EASY with any scene you choose, Measure the black and white portions of a shot, and PROVE that the black is deeper with LLDV vs without.
In fact, when I played Season 8 on UHD Bluray with native Dolby Vision (the other seasons were just SDR HD from HBO Go, converted to LLDV), it was ever better in the black level/shadow detail/contrast department. Even my ignorant to video family noticed this and made an unprovoked comment about it.
See above.
It is also EASY to induce contrast variances by tweaking tone mapping settings, gosh man, what do you think people have been doing for 2 years in the MadVR thread, we OBSESS over that kind of stuff. Have you looked through that thread recently? There is HARDCORE analasis there, please do not discount the attention to detail.
Someone else trying the LLDV hack for the first time also commented about this low level detail improvement when they compared regular HDR10 to LLDV. See quote below. That is what I am saying improves this ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR. I am sure this is the same as what you're doing with DTM, but again, you aren't starting with a native DV source or processing.
Good for them, they got a taste of good dynamic tone mapping for the first time. Give me a review from someone who actively uses MadVR.
See my YouTube video link at the end of this post.
That video is rubbish. This is why:
Projectors Used: Epson 740HD - 15,000:1 Epson 5030UB - 600,000:1
Both those projectors are very low contrast projectors the numbers are completely fiction. The guy didnt even expose the video properly, so they are both rubbish.
OK, then we agree because that's exactly what I said too. I didn't leave that out at all. In fact I used the Radiance Pro as my basis instead of MadVR, but they're both tools right? Again, did you actually read my reply to Dylan where I said this?
Of course I did. But you still litter it with confusion on your behalf either on the side of LLDV or not understanding how MadVR DTM works.
It IS completely different. I am starting with either a native Dolby Vision source video file, or one that is processed using the Dolby Vision processing algorithms (HDR10, SDR HD, etc.) in the source device. You are starting with HDR10 (inferior to DV), SDR HD and then processing that inferior (to DV) signal with great processing such as the Radiance Pro or MadVR, which does the best it can with with that inferior (to DV) signal, which in the end certainly does look quite amazing though, I agree. It is the extra low level details, color capabilities, etc. of DV which make this solution better than what I saw with the Radiance Pro ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR. That is my point in all this Javs, which you in fact have not seen.
Actually, its NOT.
Dont talk about native Dolby Vision file because its a 1 in 10 scenario. We are mostly focusing here on the full time abilities, if you argument is that you can get native DV on the 1 in 10 discs that have it, that's amazing for you, but your argument is that ALL discs with the LLDV hack look absolutely incredible because its 'Native DV', which it isn't.
You dont really know anything about the 'algorithms' you just happen to like them. You are still starting with the so called inferior source in all cases. There is NO DV metadata on the discs that are not encoded in DV, so its moot. You are just eating a different flavour of ice cream.
Why doesn't someone try connecting an HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro in between their source device like a UHD Bluray player capable of LLDV and their Radiance Pro? This way you could use the native DV on the disc, convert to LLDV, send as what appears as normal HDR10 into the Radiance Pro, and then let it do whatever it does to see what the end result is? It may very well be better than sending HDR10, or for DV discs, just the HDR10 layer. Who knows, but it could show what it is I AM talking about here and you can see maybe the benefits of native DV vs HDR10.
I only have a Linker, does it work with that? Ill try it on my JVC if it does. But that's pretty frustrating because if I am able to even photograph a difference easily and show it here, then WHY couldn't you do it any-time in the past year yourself rather than going round in circles? Do you not have a camera at all? I find that hard to believe, you have meters, you have certifications, surely you can come up with SOME DATA. If I turn around and do it in the space of a few hours its going to piss me off that you couldn't put in the effort to do it yourself and could have saved all this banter...
And THEN what if I say its 90% the same, or inferior to DTM, we will go around in circles again... oh your projector is nits started etc etc...
Oh, I know what DTM is Javs, don't worry about that. I described why this is different already in the reply to the paragraph above when using DV processing.
But you got some of it confused...
What you seem to be failing to grasp is that the main difference is that all the tone mapping, DV processing, etc. is being done in the source player (Sony X800M2, AppleTV 4K, etc.). This then is sent to the LK990 which is setup with a static, as big as possible, HDR ST2084 curve (HDR BRightness -2), so in essence is what you're saying but the difference is it's a "static curve container" for the "dynamic LLDV/tone mapping", rather than a static SDR gamma curve, like you did with the likes of MadVR and Radiance Pro. This is why I am saying it is so different ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR, which has inferior SDR modes compared to when using HDR ST2084 ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR
NO!
Here is another point of confusion,
MadVR IS the source. You think the projector is doing anything? The advantage of the/my/any JVC or Sony or whatever is its reliable and can be calibrated properly to a standard. I could also load an ST2084 EOTF onto the JVC and then tell MadVR to output HDR and that the display luminance is 100 nits, then it will tone map exactly as it should to the 10,000 nits ST2084 HDR EOTF, that's what it does when I click THIS:
(https://i.imgur.com/J5dIdjr.png)
But in the case of the LK, you are NOT actually doing that, you are choosing HDR brightness -2, you think that is a flat EOTF, you have just introduced your own manipulation? I dont think so, if you disagree, please measure the native EOTF for us and post it showing the scale and where it rolls off at HDR -2, it's easy to do!
I am not jumping down anyone's throat other than to disagree and defend the fact of how you're describing the low level performance when using LLDV with an HDR ST2084 curve ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR, which in fact no, you haven't seen or experienced.
But my opinion is my own. Who are you to say I am wrong? I measured it, I observed it, dont tell me that I was not able to see the max contrast available from the machine, because it was not difficult to do.
If you can measure over 5k:1 dynamic, I will give you a cookie!
If you disagree, then measure something to show otherwise as I stated earlier, or accept that you and I have VERY different ideas on what good contrast is.
I have asked this before with no response. How would you describe the LK990's black level performance, based on these two choices in this YouTube video? You must pick one which you feel it is most like. Please be honest:
https://youtu.be/2nN_wJpno2M
I would love to pick one, but it wouldnt be fair to anybody because this video is misleading, the projectors are both ~5k:1 machines, even with the DI you might get 20k I dont know Mike can chime in but the numbers on both machines are stratospherically low even compared to a Sony. If I said it looks like the top image then you would say but in most content the contrast in bright scenes was great (which I agree with) however that video was utter crap in bright scenes, and I could clearly make out his speakers. His room is NOT TREATED and his on screen ANSI would be no better than 80-100:1. I saw the LK ANSI at 450:1 IN my room.
That video is also highly brightness varied, remember in testing (some of the time) I also used an ND filter on the BenQ in my room, so I lowered the black floor as MUCH as I could to try and compare.
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The 5030 is around 5,000:1 native. I can't remember the 740HD, but I would be surprised if it exceeded 2,000:1.
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And if the DI works similar to the one in the 5050UB, with real content it only doubles native contrast. So it's really like 10,000:1 dynamic with real video and around 50-60000:1 max dynamic contrast if you have an all black image.
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Clearly with a grain of salt...
Why would it be "Clearly with a grain of salt..." if you came into the thread posting a fighting video, "clearly" showing you came ready to "join the fight" against me and my position? What is and always has been clear, is that you never thought of me as one of your internet pals or being part of the "cool kids group" of like-minded individuals you have going here, so why would I have taken it any other way, Javs?
...If you dont want me to comment, DONT name drop me as you did once or twice in this thread.
It was heated before I got here...
I told you why I name dropped and why I said I was going to email you. It was because I thought I could actually have an adult, man to man open minded discussion with you about this new thing I discovered and I thought maybe based on your history that you'd have something valuable to bring to the table. I see once again that I was wrong in that assumption. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me, so it'll NEVER happen again, that I can assure you Javs.
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Why would it be "Clearly with a grain of salt..." if you came into the thread posting a fighting video, "clearly" showing you came ready to "join the fight" against me and my position? What is and always has been clear, is that you never thought of me as one of your internet pals or being part of the "cool kids group" of like-minded individuals you have going here, so why would I have taken it any other way, Javs?
I told you why I name dropped and why I said I was going to email you. It was because I thought I could actually have an adult, man to man open minded discussion with you about this new thing I discovered and I thought maybe based on your history that you'd have something valuable to bring to the table. I see once again that I was wrong in that assumption. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me, so it'll NEVER happen again, that I can assure you Javs.
Thats enough Dave let it go.
You are actually exhausting to even talk to.
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Well you are still a little unsure on it that's clear below...
Ummmmm, no. I am very sure of it. You didn't understand a thing I wrote in my reply, which I explain below.....again.
...Is that really necessary to say?...
Yes, because based on your replies, it appears you hadn't read it.
...I did that too! I stated it half a dozen times including a year ago, what, you think I just tried one setting and called it crap? I did every possible video signal chain combination to get MadVR and HDR working its best on the LK990, I WANTED it to look good. I too fed it HDR and put the HDR brightness down a click or two.
THEREFORE its not a difference, is it.....
Yes, as I said it IS a difference. When you did it, was your signal going into the LK990 SDR/BT2020 in the first instance? Yes, it was, so therefore it wasn't using the HDR ST2084 mode of the LK990.
Secondly, after the first attempt using SDR/BT2020, as you state, you tried HDR10, correct? Well, is HDR10 the same as LLDV Dolby Vision Profile 5, especially when the source is native Dolby Vision? Let me answer that for you....the answer is NO!
So therefore it IS INDEED different! So please, either try EXACTLY what I did, or hold your false assumptions until you do.
...What, the one in 10 discs with actual Dolby Vision? Don't call the LLDV hack 'native' Dolby Vision, its NOT. Its a spoof....
This is where you're totally and unequivocally WRONG Javs! LLDV is based on Dolby Vision's Profile 5 and is just as much "Dolby Vision" as their original profile when the source material is native Dolby Vision, like on the various Dolby Vision encoded UHD Blurays such as Black Panther, etc. The ONLY difference is the Dolby Vision processing is done in the source instead of the DV capable display. The source device, say a Sony X800M2 UHD Bluray player, is reading the EXACT SAME Dolby Vision layer off of the disc and using the EXACT SAME video and metadata as when it is connected to an original profile DV capable display, such as an LG OLED. And now that we have the capability to customize the DV Data Block String so we can tell the source device EXACTLY what we have connected to it and its paramters like max luminance, min luminance, color gamut and its precise points, etc., EXACTLY like what something like an LG OLED does to get the EXACT SAME response form the source device as if it were hooked up to a native DV display with its EDID characteristics reported back to the source for customization with that EXACT display device!
Even when the source file is SDR HD or HDR10, when you use LLDV and have DV locked on in the source player like the Sony X800M2, it still uses the DV processing algorithms built into the Sony to convert the source file video to a best approximation of DV, and all the benefits thereof, such as improved shadow detail/steps of low level grey, better low level color rendition, better highlight detail and recovery, etc. This is clearly easy to see just by comparing when those source video files are displayed in their native mode (SDR HD or HDR10). I never ONCE said that this is "native Dolby Vision" though, so not sure where you're getting that from? (* I am not saying that MadVR, RP, Envy can't also do this or similar. Now we are into the monetary side of the equation for which you decide to use)
Perhaps you have some reading and researching to do.
...Purely subjective... How are either of us supposed to quantify this, you are assuming you are seeing something different to me, yet we are both verbally describing something....
Yes it's subjective, but you're saying the image is hazy and milky at certain low levels and I am saying it is not. The YouTube video I linked to and you totally over-analyzed the purpose of was linked so that you could just look at both SUBJECTIVELY and tell me which one more matched SUBJECTIVELY the haziness you think you saw with the LK990, then I would also say which one I think it looks more like. This way we would have an OBJECTIVE point of reference to go on. You instead chose to ignore it and then tried to over analyze and over think the videos and why they were linked in the first place (your comments below), which is totally irrelevant to what I was asking of you. I watched it again and you can clearly see that the top one's black bars/"raster" area and the image itself is more grey, hazy, milky and washed out than the bottom video. That is ALL I was trying to establish Javs.
...Its useless without empirical data. MEASURE THE ON SCREEN CONTRAST if you are so sure its better. It should be EASY with any scene you choose, Measure the black and white portions of a shot, and PROVE that the black is deeper with LLDV vs without....
On this we think alike. I thought of this exact thing also. As I stated in a previous post, I am still searching for a good test pattern source to use for what this LLDV is doing. I didn't get consistent results when using the regular sources like R. Masciola's patterns, S&M UHD disc, etc. I bought Ryan's DV patterns but for some reason they keep showing as 8 bit on the color patches, which would be normal in the original DV profiles since they're YCbCr 12 bit 4:2:2 disguised in an RGB 8 bit container, even when I am playing them in the Profile 5 LLDV DV mode. Maybe it is doing it right and just displaying that way for some reason, idk. I need to talk to Ryan to clear it up.
But yes, I agree and was going to do what you suggested here as well.
...It is also EASY to induce contrast variances by tweaking tone mapping settings, gosh man, what do you think people have been doing for 2 years in the MadVR thread, we OBSESS over that kind of stuff. Have you looked through that thread recently? There is HARDCORE analasis there, please do not discount the attention to detail....
I am not discounting anything, especially MadVR or even the Radiance Pro. ALL I ever said was that ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR, using SDR/BT2020 as an input signal which kicks in the LK990's SDR modes, is not as good as sending an HDR mode so it kicks into its ST2084 HDR mode. I have confirmed this numerous times when I had the Radiance Pro here, trying both SDR/BT2020 and HDR/BT2020 over and over again. I am also now saying that NOW when using LLDV, it is even better! This is what I am saying you have never done yet, and you haven't. Although you did do something similar using HDR/BT2020 processing with MadVR, then yes you should (but apparently didn't) get similar results as my HDR/BT2020, but again when native Dolby Vision is involved, which is what I described in my post you quoted (GoT Season 8 in UHD 4K NATIVE Dolby Vision), this is what you haven't done and is therefore.....different....VERY different I might add, and it is easy to see too! Many, many people have verified this too.
This is also what I am NOT saying. I am NOT saying that MadVR, Envy, Lumagen Radiance Pro, etc. ON ANY OTHER PROJECTOR THAN THE LK990 (i.e. - JVC RS2000/3000/4500, SOny VW885/995ES, etc.) doesn't look spectacular, because those projectors do have much better SDR performance and low level black and contrast which would take advantage of this better SDR performance when using those processors. I thought my Radiance Pro in HDR10/BT2020 looked incredible before I totally and reluctantly sold it due to health and finance issues.....until I saw native Dolby Vision using this LLDV trick ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR.
(*OK, now I know many will misunderstand and misconstrue what I just wrote, so I am ready to reply, so go ahead haha)
...Good for them, they got a taste of good dynamic tone mapping for the first time. Give me a review from someone who actively uses MadVR....
Yep, and they also saved TONS of cash over buying a super high end, more expensive video processor like the Radiance Pro or Envy which they most likely can't and never will be able to afford! They also didn't have to buy (also more expensive), build and/or maintain a PC in their HT environment, which many like me never want to have to do and deal with the hassles that it most likely will involve, especially those that aren't as PC or even tech savvy as you and I.
So tell me again how this is a bad thing or a disadvantage, being able to get dynamic tone mapping and also native DV support (which your Radiance Pros, Envys and MadVRs can't do btw) at utterly substantial cash savings of thousands of dollars and/or time savings and hassles with setup and maintenance of a PC? I spoke with that ISF Calibrator/Dealer from Perth yesterday about LLDV, and he said that the Radiance Pro, which he is a dealer for, goes for about $10,000 there. That is 20 TIMES what it costs for a Vertex2! Granted, the RP does a lot more and may have slightly better images depending on which display it's used with, but at what point does the price/performance difference kick in at 20 TIMES the price??? I had them both and I can tell you, maybe 2 times the price of the Vertex2 for the RP is what I would pay, maybe even 3 times, but never 20 TIMES unless my financial situation drastically changed. Beleive me, if I could I would have the Envy with a JVC RS4500 right now, but I would also now have an HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro in the chain so I could play native DV sources when they are available. I hear it is especially good to do this with the AppleTV 4K since its conversion from DV sources to HDR10 is sub-optimal. I believe this is why folks like @Claw and @Dominic Chan use it.
...That video is rubbish. This is why:
Projectors Used: Epson 740HD - 15,000:1 Epson 5030UB - 600,000:1
Both those projectors are very low contrast projectors the numbers are completely fiction. The guy didnt even expose the video properly, so they are both rubbish.
Of course I did. But you still litter it with confusion on your behalf either on the side of LLDV or not understanding how MadVR DTM works......
See my above replies.....
...Actually, its NOT.
Dont talk about native Dolby Vision file because its a 1 in 10 scenario. We are mostly focusing here on the full time abilities, if you argument is that you can get native DV on the 1 in 10 discs that have it, that's amazing for you, but your argument is that ALL discs with the LLDV hack look absolutely incredible because its 'Native DV', which it isn't....
I never said SDR HD or HDR10 was "native" Dolby Vision. Not once! I said it is being mapped and processed using Dolby Vision processing and algorithms, which are and do look better than prior iterations of what I used with those sources before ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR
...You dont really know anything about the 'algorithms' you just happen to like them. You are still starting with the so called inferior source in all cases. There is NO DV metadata on the discs that are not encoded in DV, so its moot. You are just eating a different flavour of ice cream....
Please oh please tell me how it is you know that, Javs? I have been researching Dolby Vision for a long time now, reading white papers and watching videos direct from Dolby and from mastering studio companies, among many other things.
I know I am starting from an inferior source. I am just finishing it off with a superior dynamic tone mapping and processing algorithm than what I had previously with HDR10 only.
Did I ever say or infer that there WAS DV Metadata on those SDR or HDR10 sources? I'm not that ignorant, so I am confused, but thanks again for the condescension regarding my knowledge and abilities. :rolleyes:
....I only have a Linker, does it work with that? Ill try it on my JVC if it does. But that's pretty frustrating because if I am able to even photograph a difference easily and show it here, then WHY couldn't you do it any-time in the past year yourself rather than going round in circles? Do you not have a camera at all? I find that hard to believe, you have meters, you have certifications, surely you can come up with SOME DATA. If I turn around and do it in the space of a few hours its going to piss me off that you couldn't put in the effort to do it yourself and could have saved all this banter...
I think you may be able to get hold of someone that has the same projector as you and also an HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/MAESTRO which they can then create a custom EDID using the Custom DV Data Block/String parameters. They can then save this custom EDID and email it to you for you to load it into your Linker, most likely slot 10 which is user loadable if I recall on that device. I would start with @Claw, @Dominic Chan, @Mark Swift and @HDFury/Kento since they may have the same gear and more info in the case of HDFury.
The only camera of any value and performance I have is the one built into my iPhone 11 Pro. I am and never was into photography. My entire Home Theater life and limited finances have pretty much revolved around projectors and has since my first GE Imager/Panasonic PT-101 480i CRT back in 1996 (but yeah, I am just an idiot and clown when it comes to them, right?), except for a couple years I worked for Alan and Laurie at AV Science and TAW, Inc with Phil Tuttobene and Deniz Mutlu, who got me into some pretty high end audio as well with EAD amps, Lexicon processor and B&W speakers. I sold those when I got sick and was bedridden almost four years and needed the money. Once I was healed enough, I took a contract job in Afghanistan doing ISR and in that time moved here to HI and haven't been able to afford nor really care for photography or super high end audio since. Again, if I had the finances, I would certainly revisit this.
One thing you guys keep failing to realize is that not everyone is in YOUR position to afford all these high end pieces of HT equipment, so they need to find cheaper alternatives that perform as best as can possibly be found, and this LLDV trick along with the LK990 gives phenomenal performance for the outlay of cash involved compared to the solutions you guys are portending. I know you're going to say "just use the HDF LLDV on a JVC RS1000", but based on what I saw and believe in my many years doing this, the combination of the LK990's advantages along with LLDV, especially native DV sources, provides the best bang for the buck OVERALL images I have ever seen, and it isn't even close! I think you're all totally downplaying what the extra headroom luminance gives you with HDR/DV, along with the incredible sharpness and details and many other things the LK990 provides here. It completely overrides the small disadvantages of what you can get for black levels, shadow details and contrast on this unit, in my humble opinion which I experience nearly every single day and have the professional experience to back up, no matter what you try to say or fool readers here into thinking is the case.
....And THEN what if I say its 90% the same, or inferior to DTM, we will go around in circles again... oh your projector is nits started etc etc...
I am already saying it may be only 90-95% or inferior to MadVR/RP/Envy DTM ON ANY OTHER PROJECTOR. That was never the point, even though you all are making it out like it is. I already explained this many times, that it's about the LK990 using these techniques, not any other projector that may better utilize the SDR/BT2020 signal being tone mapped and sent from those devices.
I also explained the monetary reasons why, which to many people are HUGE!!!
I only say "nit starved" when I am talking about trying to do THE EXACT SAME THING as I do ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR which has the extra lumens to do what it is I am trying to do, like use a custom 10,000 nit DV Data Block for LLDV, allowing the main part of the image in the first 100 nits or so to have the least amount of tone mapping compression as possible while also giving the 100-175 nits extra headroom to be used for the specular and similar highlights used in HDR/DV. Others have tried this on their JVCs and Sonys and have reported poor results, so this shows why I am saying that. Their projectors top out at around 100 nits, so therefore don't have the headroom that the LK990 has, just as in brighter HDR/DV flat panels.
...But you got some of it confused...
No I didn't. You just aren't understanding what I am saying, and have been saying.
....NO!
Here is another point of confusion,
MadVR IS the source. You think the projector is doing anything? The advantage of the/my/any JVC or Sony or whatever is its reliable and can be calibrated properly to a standard. I could also load an ST2084 EOTF onto the JVC and then tell MadVR to output HDR and that the display luminance is 100 nits, then it will tone map exactly as it should to the 10,000 nits ST2084 HDR EOTF, that's what it does when I click THIS:
(https://i.imgur.com/J5dIdjr.png)........
I am not confused because I understand everything you just posted, now and before. I wasn't saying MadVR was static. I was referring to the SDR 2.4 gamma being used, and you sending the dynamic signal FROM MadVR into it, as a container, like you described in one of your replies to me. I was saying what I am doing is similar in that instead of an SDR 2.4 gamma curve since you're sending SDR/BT2020, I send DV Dynamic Tone Mapping from my source (X800M2, ATV4K), the same as you do for MadVR, to my static ST2084 HDR curve, also a sort of container if you will, the same way you described your solution but with different sources and "containers".
No matter how you slice it, 1,000/4,000/10,000 nits tone mapped into 100 nits is more compression being used than the same 1,000/4,000/10,000 nits being tone mapped into 275 nits, DTM or not! When you have any scenes whatsoever that have both low APL content and high specular highlight content concurrently, like many scenes in GoT in dark castles with bright sunlight coming through windows along with reflections off of brass and copper items, when you have only 100 nits to work with, more compression MUST be used as compared to a display with much higher lumen values (such as HDR/DV flat panels and the LK990), closer to the source mastering peak, available to you.
...But in the case of the LK, you are NOT actually doing that, you are choosing HDR brightness -2, you think that is a flat EOTF, you have just introduced your own manipulation? I dont think so, if you disagree, please measure the native EOTF for us and post it showing the scale and where it rolls off at HDR -2, it's easy to do!....
I don't disagree. I never said it had NO manipulation or was totally flat. I said it has the LEAST of any of the modes available for HDR Brightness (curve) ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR. I also said that the combination of what I am doing along with what this curve does ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR gives amazing results, for whatever reasons, but it does. They just work very well together, that is all and that is fact.
...But my opinion is my own. Who are you to say I am wrong? I measured it, I observed it, dont tell me that I was not able to see the max contrast available from the machine, because it was not difficult to do....
I am not saying your initial opinion is wrong. I am saying you can't compare that to what is happening NOW, when you haven't done it this way with LLDV and native DV sources.
...If you can measure over 5k:1 dynamic, I will give you a cookie!...
I already said measuring this is very hard to do with this projector. you think it isn't because you just input a 0% black pattern, measure it and call it a day, but that is the wrong thing to do with THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR due to as I said, the Automatic Brightness Control feature, which is basically the same as ABL (Automatic Brightness Limiter) on flat panels. On those, many can defeat this "feature", but you can't on the LK990. It is always on. This is the basis for why I said to ask 12GAGE, tnaik4, etc. because they noticed it too and 12GAGE even did measurements to prove this and that in real video the projector goes LOWER than what it does when you input a 0% Black pattern. Hence making any measurements of any real value incredibly hard, unlike how you describe it, which is based on false assumptions. Just watch this video attached where Kevin Miller, Dr. Larry Walker, et al' talk about ABL in a similar fashion(not exactly the same) in the flat panel shootout from a few years ago. It is just when DeWayne starts to speak around 4 minutes in:
https://youtu.be/NMD8cy3SuOI
...If you disagree, then measure something to show otherwise as I stated earlier, or accept that you and I have VERY different ideas on what good contrast is....
I explain this above and earlier, so I am not rehashing here again.
I know what good contrast is, I have an LG C65 OLED and play the same scenes on that and compare.
I never said they were the same as the JVCs or Sonys, let alone the OLED. What I have repeatedly said is that is is good enough and acceptable enough so that the very real advantages that I see and that the LK990 has outweighs the disadvantages I see with the LK990's total black levels and contrast, capisce?
....I would love to pick one, but it wouldnt be fair to anybody because this video is misleading, the projectors are both ~5k:1 machines, even with the DI you might get 20k I dont know Mike can chime in but the numbers on both machines are stratospherically low even compared to a Sony. If I said it looks like the top image then you would say but in most content the contrast in bright scenes was great (which I agree with) however that video was utter crap in bright scenes, and I could clearly make out his speakers. His room is NOT TREATED and his on screen ANSI would be no better than 80-100:1. I saw the LK ANSI at 450:1 IN my room.
That video is also highly brightness varied, remember in testing (some of the time) I also used an ND filter on the BenQ in my room, so I lowered the black floor as MUCH as I could to try and compare.
I already covered this before and what the purpose of me linking that video was, which you totally misunderstood and over analyzed.
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Thats enough Dave let it go....
Again, easy to say from the person not at the pointy end of the spear!
....You are actually exhausting to even talk to.
Ditto, especially when the people you're trying to have an open minded, peer-to-peer, professional conversation with don't seem willing to do so in a cordial way.
I’m done if you are?
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One thing Dave.
Tell me how you are putting the LK990 into SDR BT2020 mode.
The unit I had, unless there is new firmware does NOT accept BT2020 colour space flag with an SDR gamma selected. If you send the BT2020 flag it will kick the projector into the HDR mode and the gamma is unselectable. At the time you agreed this needed to be addressed and that it was the use case, so unless there was a new firmware update, how are you doing it, are you using the linker or something? I guess that makes sense if so.
Yes, I sent full HDR to the LK990 for tone mapping, I wrote that multiple times.
Yes, as I said it IS a difference. When you did it, was your signal going into the LK990 SDR/BT2020 in the first instance? Yes, it was, so therefore it wasn't using the HDR ST2084 mode of the LK990.
Secondly, after the first attempt using SDR/BT2020, as you state, you tried HDR10, correct? Well, is HDR10 the same as LLDV Dolby Vision Profile 5, especially when the source is native Dolby Vision? Let me answer that for you....the answer is NO!
So therefore it IS INDEED different! So please, either try EXACTLY what I did, or hold your false assumptions until you do.
Yes, it was HDR Tone Mapping. See the screenshot I posted.
Yes I also tried its native HDR mode in isolation, but it sucked, the tone mapped MadVR was much better in HDR. But I preferred SDR BT709 ultimately because BT2020 was too innacurate and the EOTF wasnt flat and was fighting against the tone mapping so you just end up not accurate with the tone mapping. I prefer one thing doing all the tone mapping not two devices with their own interpretation of it.
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This is where you're totally and unequivocally WRONG Javs! LLDV is based on Dolby Vision's Profile 5 and is just as much "Dolby Vision" as their original profile when the source material is native Dolby Vision, like on the various Dolby Vision encoded UHD Blurays such as Black Panther, etc. The ONLY difference is the Dolby Vision processing is done in the source instead of the DV capable display. The source device, say a Sony X800M2 UHD Bluray player, is reading the EXACT SAME Dolby Vision layer off of the disc and using the EXACT SAME video and metadata as when it is connected to an original profile DV capable display, such as an LG OLED. And now that we have the capability to customize the DV Data Block String so we can tell the source device EXACTLY what we have connected to it and its paramters like max luminance, min luminance, color gamut and its precise points, etc., EXACTLY like what something like an LG OLED does to get the EXACT SAME response form the source device as if it were hooked up to a native DV display with its EDID characteristics reported back to the source for customization with that EXACT display device!
Even when the source file is SDR HD or HDR10, when you use LLDV and have DV locked on in the source player like the Sony X800M2, it still uses the DV processing algorithms built into the Sony to convert the source file video to a best approximation of DV, and all the benefits thereof, such as improved shadow detail/steps of low level grey, better low level color rendition, better highlight detail and recovery, etc. This is clearly easy to see just by comparing when those source video files are displayed in their native mode (SDR HD or HDR10).
Perhaps you have some reading and researching to do.
Yeah I agree that you are looking at the original DV on the discs that support it and did not say otherwise (I said good for you remember) but the ones that dont have native DV you are just using an algorithm, which is essentially a spoof, so you are just as much in love with a simple algorithm as you are the actual DV.
So, I am not wrong.
I never ONCE said that this is "native Dolby Vision" though, so not sure where you're getting that from? (* I am not saying that MadVR, RP, Envy can't also do this or similar. Now we are into the monetary side of the equation for which you decide to use)
Um not only did you say it once, you said it over half a dozen times, here:
That, along with sending the full native Dolby Vision essentially is like using a whole new technology when compared to the "old way" of doing it with custom or straight 1,000 nit HDR curves or converting from HDR BT2020 to SDR BT2020, while only being able to feed it HDR10, not full native dolby vision.
Here:
LLDV? Nope, I never said it was superior to any other DTM solution out there other than adding native Dolby Vision capabilities.
Here:
You can dig up all the quotes you want, but you are posting about the older LK970, which has neither HDR nor SmartEco Dynamic Laser Dimming support, not the LK990 which has both upgraded features and also which with I am discussing what it does and how it looks with Dolby Vision LLDV native and upconverted signals being displayed.
Here:
Oh, so you have actually used an HDFury Vertex2, DIVA or Maestro to fool the source into sending a native Dolby Vision signal being fed to that "low contrast" DLP (not an LK990 I am sure), with a custom DV Data Block set to a max luminance of 10,000 nits, .0005 min luminance, LLDV, BT2020 custom color gamut points, etc., so you know first hand how this looks then?
It goes on...
Also spoof, is the very definition of 'fool the source'.
I dont think a single person is arguing the point that any ACTUAL DV disc will not look great. The rest are just a form of DTM though, while you do say this sometimes, you are pretty lax with how specific you are being.
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I am not confused because I understand everything you just posted, now and before. I wasn't saying MadVR was static. I was referring to the SDR 2.4 gamma being used, and you sending the dynamic signal FROM MadVR into it, as a container, like you described in one of your replies to me.
NO, I can send a FULL HDR signal. Tone-mapped as I want, however I want. There is NO SDR if I click that button.
The bandwidth is the same, I can send a 10,000 nit Tone Mapped signal or a signal optimised for my EXACT screen brightess (which DV doesnt even know!).
There is only a value between 0.0 and 1.0.
Do you understand that you cannot have any information above 1.0 for pixel brightness?
Can we please agree on that, this is actually FUNDAMENTAL to our discussion. You seem to think an HDR signal is superior to an SDR one purely based on its name, that's no way correct at all when you have control over how the container is filled with information.
I can put it within an SDR Gamma container or I can wrap it with an HDR flag and send it that way, its of no consequence. What matters is the source AND the display talking exactly the same language which means the display promises its calibrated to say, SDR 2.4 Gamma in which the source tone mapping knows that its going to look exactly as intended by the algorithms, if I choose to set my display to clip to 10,000 nits, but the peak white in the real world is 100 nits, or 300 nits, you have to tell the source what that peak is, that way it outputs the correct levels. The tone mapping we use largely leaves totally untouched any pixel brightness under the display peak you enter, if you enter 100 nits, and the peak is 90 nits, it will not compress a single pixel, it will be exactly 1:1, thats how you get 3 nit scenes like the one on the train in Terminator Dark Fate to look ABSOLUTELY SOURCE PERFECT. DV in its native form usually will do this too. The OLD way would compress all pixels in the same fashion no matter what, you would either clip to get shadow detail or roll off shallow and lose shadow detail in order to keep the highlights.
Also, ANY TIME you touch a contrast control, or select a mode which brightens or darkens the image, or use ANY kind of algorithm OTHER than the full 10,000 nits uncompressed image on disc you are either adding compression, or expanding the signal, please make this distinction EVEN WITH DV.
The assertion the '100 nits tone mapped SDR' is inferior to DV is absolutely nonsense when the algorithms behind it are sound.
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I already said measuring this is very hard to do with this projector. you think it isn't because you just input a 0% black pattern, measure it and call it a day,
No, I looked at a ton of content, I chose scenes and images which triggered the dimming. I tried to find the limit of when it would trip and when it would come out of dimming, I tried single pixels, I tried a mouse cursor, I tried the interstellar scene, I tries others like it, ALL the ADL patterns, ALL the Grey Gamma ADL patterns, In HDR and SDR (it was easy to kick the BenQ into HDR mode on my PC and then put whatever I wanted up).
I never saw the black floor go lower than a certain level. I didnt call it a day, I spent well over 30 hours on that projector just testing stuff. So, we obviously disagree on what good contrast is, as I said.
Measuring the power draw is not the same as measuring the actual light output, there could be 100 reasons why power draw is going up or down which none of us know about. The only quantifiable thing is a light meter reading.
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I never said they were the same as the JVCs or Sonys, let alone the OLED. What I have repeatedly said is that is is good enough (to you) and acceptable enough so that the very real advantages that I see and that the LK990 has outweighs the disadvantages I see with the LK990's total black levels and contrast, capisce?
Then stop arguing that everybody 'did it wrong' and let people have their own opinions, and more importantly allow them the respect to have been able to figure it out on their own without constantly insinuating that they did something wrong.
MadVR tone mapping has been incredible for a couple years almost now, certainly since before the BenQLK990.
YES I sent HDR to it. Yes I had dynamic tone mapping, SO DID DYLAN. SO DID KRIS (With the Radiance).
Can you please have the respect to accept our conclusions.? Our opinions differ to yours. Thats it. The end.
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Yep, and they also saved TONS of cash over buying a super high end, more expensive video processor like the Radiance Pro or Envy which they most likely can't and never will be able to afford! They also didn't have to buy (also more expensive), build and/or maintain a PC in their HT environment, which many like me never want to have to do and deal with the hassles that it most likely will involve, especially those that aren't as PC or even tech savvy as you and I.
So tell me again how this is a bad thing or a disadvantage, being able to get dynamic tone mapping and also native DV support (which your Radiance Pros, Envys and MadVRs can't do btw) at utterly substantial cash savings of thousands of dollars and/or time savings and hassles with setup and maintenance of a PC? I spoke with that ISF Calibrator/Dealer from Perth yesterday about LLDV, and he said that the Radiance Pro, which he is a dealer for, goes for about $10,000 there. That is 20 TIMES what it costs for a Vertex2! Granted, the RP does a lot more and may have slightly better images depending on which display it's used with, but at what point does the price/performance difference kick in at 20 TIMES the price??? I had them both and I can tell you, maybe 2 times the price of the Vertex2 for the RP is what I would pay, maybe even 3 times, but never 20 TIMES unless my financial situation drastically changed. Beleive me, if I could I would have the Envy with a JVC RS4500 right now, but I would also now have an HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro in the chain so I could play native DV sources when they are available. I hear it is especially good to do this with the AppleTV 4K since its conversion from DV sources to HDR10 is sub-optimal. I believe this is why folks like @Claw and @Dominic Chan use it.
A PC running MadVR is not expensive at all. Maybe $1000. You dont need to run what's possible at 10/10ths. The way I run it, my video card is not even sweating so I could actually downgrade to a 2060 or 2070 most likely, and I am running a 5-6 year old PC with a GTX1080 which is a few years old now (probably equal to a 2070)... So I am just not buying that cost excuse.
I think the Envy is way out of the universe in terms of price, but that's up to them, I think the same of the Radiance, you would never catch me buying either.
I am not made of money either, I wish I was. In fact, you had the Laser Sony at one point? You have had twice as many projectors as I in the past few years on the forum, man, that aint cheap, even as a dealer (which I hardly am) I wouldn't have the cash for something like a laser Sony for another couple years those start at $20k here, so much more stuff to pay for in life. Even the LK990 here is $18k!!, not worth it at all!
As I said though, your spoof is great, good for you! Its simple just a form of DTM (I dont care about the native DV titles we are talking about ALL titles), but I also just dont care or need it. Importantly, It does not radically transform my opinion of the LK990 is the point here (and why I even chimed in days ago). Because I had the same greatness available to me here in the guise of MadVR, BACK THEN you told me since I wasn't using your settings I was not seeing the best image, which is pretty arrogant considering, dont you think that was a little over the top? If you have what you had now, and you met your own self from a year ago touting your settings while you had full dynamic tone mapping telling you that you didnt have the best image, would you really give that person the time of day? I dont think so.
WELCOME TO DYNAMIC TONE MAPPING. Its awesome. What you have is one flavour of it, and there are many. Accept them all and move on.
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NO, I can send a FULL HDR signal. Tone-mapped as I want, however I want. There is NO SDR if I click that button.
The bandwidth is the same, I can send a 10,000 nit Tone Mapped signal or a signal optimised for my EXACT screen brightess (which DV doesnt even know!).
There is only a value between 0.0 and 1.0.
Do you understand that you cannot have any information above 1.0 for pixel brightness?
Can we please agree on that, this is actually FUNDAMENTAL to our discussion. You seem to think an HDR signal is superior to an SDR one purely based on its name, that's no way correct at all when you have control over how the container is filled with information.
I can put it within an SDR Gamma container or I can wrap it with an HDR flag and send it that way, its of no consequence. What matters is the source AND the display talking exactly the same language which means the display promises its calibrated to say, SDR 2.4 Gamma in which the source tone mapping knows that its going to look exactly as intended by the algorithms, if I choose to set my display to clip to 10,000 nits, but the peak white in the real world is 100 nits, or 300 nits, you have to tell the source what that peak is, that way it outputs the correct levels. The tone mapping we use largely leaves totally untouched any pixel brightness under the display peak you enter, if you enter 100 nits, and the peak is 90 nits, it will not compress a single pixel, it will be exactly 1:1, thats how you get 3 nit scenes like the one on the train in Terminator Dark Fate to look ABSOLUTELY SOURCE PERFECT. DV in its native form usually will do this too. The OLD way would compress all pixels in the same fashion no matter what, you would either clip to get shadow detail or roll off shallow and lose shadow detail in order to keep the highlights.
Also, ANY TIME you touch a contrast control, or select a mode which brightens or darkens the image, or use ANY kind of algorithm OTHER than the full 10,000 nits uncompressed image on disc you are either adding compression, or expanding the signal, please make this distinction EVEN WITH DV.
The assertion the '100 nits tone mapped SDR' is inferior to DV is absolutely nonsense when the algorithms behind it are sound.
I don't think you are ever going to get through to Dave. Also from my understanding, the LK990 is only able to do Rec709 color space even in HDR mode. So it is not just contrast that the JVC has as an advantage.
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CLOSE THE THREAD!
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CLOSE THE THREAD!
Absolutely agree. Points have been made on both sides. We're just going in circles now. Readers joining after this post can make up their own minds.