BenQ LK990 First Impressions

[Dylan Seeger]

Regardless, it still wasn’t calibrated.

The image was still "in the ballpark" as you've said many times if people use your settings. I don't see how making a few small changes to the image from your settings would drastically change the performance of the projector. And if you claim  otherwise, I'll ask again, what is the point in using your settings at all if they don't get 95%+ of the way there?

[HarperVision]

The image was still "in the ballpark" as you've said many times if people use your settings. I don't see how making a few small changes to the image from your settings would drastically change the performance of the projector. And if you claim  otherwise, I'll ask again, what is the point in using your settings at all if they don't get 95%+ of the way there?

You say you understand what I’m doing with these, then you make a post like that clearly showing you don’t. I’ve explained time and time again what the point of inputting these are, and it isn’t as a calibration.

You can actually do this yourself on your JVC or whatever Projector you use, you know. Just force HDR into an SDR input/mode. Once you see the resultant image you’ll see why such extreme settings are initially needed to make it look like some semblance of a normal HDR BT2020/P3 image.

Let’s just leave it at that then. I need to get back to the circus anyway. 

[Kris Deering]

You say you understand what I’m doing with these, then you make a post like that clearly showing you don’t. I’ve explained time and time again what the point of inputting these are, and it isn’t as a calibration.

You can actually do this yourself on your JVC or whatever Projector you use, you know. Just force HDR into an SDR input/mode. Once you see the resultant image you’ll see why such extreme settings are initially needed to make it look like some semblance of a normal HDR BT2020/P3 image.

Let’s just leave it at that then. I need to get back to the circus anyway.

Really this is getting tedious but let's try again. 

I got the LK970 to look at after hearing you cry to the heavens about how great it was. I made my initial impressions on the unit, which didn't end up being a surprise and gave it credit for its strengths and mentioned its weaknesses. You then asked if I was planning on trying your settings to which I responded YES and please provide. The VERY next post I made asked if you had a calibration target you used with those settings. From there on you NEVER (and to this day still have never) provided ANY settings to try. Mike eventually pointing me to a post that someone found with some settings in it, and since I never heard anything from you (at least useful) I used those but asked AGAIN about calibration targets (of course these settings were not the ones you wanted me to use, but you never provide those, but then said you posted settings all the time, then said the settings were buried in some emails and on and on and on and on). Of course none of this was ever provided until after I got tired of waiting to hopefully do your settings some justice and posted my results and talked about why I didn't understand your approach after just doing it a different way that makes FAR MORE sense regardless of how you feel about it. Maybe it is my much better understanding of image science and calibration, because the more you post and talk in circles, the more I am pretty sure that is what it is. There is a reason that EVERY video processing solution out there goes about this in a certain way. But they probably don't know as much about this as you either I guess?? And you wonder why I called you a name. 

If I were to actually try and calibrate to some standard with your settings the BEST I could hope to achieve would be to match what I could already get with the method I used. Mapping a 2020 color source to a 709 projector and tone mapping to give the best results for the amount of light I had. But because YOU don't seem to understand this, you persist with your BS story (and endless amount of comments about providing settings and saying to calibrate) about how everyone is attacking you and doing it wrong when it actually is the other way around. But please, continue to tell us all how much we don't know and how great you are at this. I'm sure we'll get it eventually, just like your settings.

[HarperVision]

Really this is getting tedious but let's try again.

I got the LK970 to look at after hearing you cry to the heavens about how great it was. I made my initial impressions on the unit, which didn't end up being a surprise and gave it credit for its strengths and mentioned its weaknesses. You then asked if I was planning on trying your settings to which I responded YES and please provide. The VERY next post I made asked if you had a calibration target you used with those settings. From there on you NEVER (and to this day still have never) provided ANY settings to try. Mike eventually pointing me to a post that someone found with some settings in it, and since I never heard anything from you (at least useful) I used those but asked AGAIN about calibration targets (of course these settings were not the ones you wanted me to use, but you never provide those, but then said you posted settings all the time, then said the settings were buried in some emails and on and on and on and on). Of course none of this was ever provided until after I got tired of waiting to hopefully do your settings some justice and posted my results and talked about why I didn't understand your approach after just doing it a different way that makes FAR MORE sense regardless of how you feel about it. Maybe it is my much better understanding of image science and calibration, because the more you post and talk in circles, the more I am pretty sure that is what it is. There is a reason that EVERY video processing solution out there goes about this in a certain way. But they probably don't know as much about this as you either I guess?? And you wonder why I called you a name.

If I were to actually try and calibrate to some standard with your settings the BEST I could hope to achieve would be to match what I could already get with the method I used. Mapping a 2020 color source to a 709 projector and tone mapping to give the best results for the amount of light I had. But because YOU don't seem to understand this, you persist with your BS story (and endless amount of comments about providing settings and saying to calibrate) about how everyone is attacking you and doing it wrong when it actually is the other way around. But please, continue to tell us all how much we don't know and how great you are at this. I'm sure we'll get it eventually, just like your settings.

The only tedious thing is having to repeat myself over and over again and realizing nobody ever reads what I am writing and cares to even try to understand what it is I’m saying.

I have said it is not about the merits of the other solutions rather the limitations of the LKs and why I have found you need to do it that way.  Of course why listen to me when I have had, tested and experimented endlessly with these for well over a year plus but you had it for only two weeks or so.

I guess you are the king and I am just the court jester.  Your total arrogance is astonishing Kris.  Just drop it Kris. It’s clear you don’t care enough to even entertain the possibility of what I’m saying and all you’re doing is a complete disservice to your readers and client base in doing so.

[Kris Deering]

I guess you are the king and I am just the court jester.  Your total arrogance is astonishing Kris.  Just drop it Kris. It’s clear you don’t care enough to even entertain the possibility of what I’m saying and all you’re doing is a complete disservice to your readers and client base in doing so.

But that is just it, I DO UNDERSTAND. I am trying to provide a service to my readers and clients by telling them that rather than go through all these base line settings that don't really exist as you prefer them, and then trying to calibrate to a color space that the projector can't reach, and then calibrate to PQ, which makes about zero sense for this projector, there is an easier way that is clear, precise and gives better results all while giving you clear standards to calibrate to and results that speak for themselves. All without nearly any of the hassle. 

The ITU has already defined a standard for coverting 2020 to 709 PRECISELY FOR THIS REASON, and Panasonic implemented it. Panasonic does a fantastic job with tone mapping, including adapting to content metadata, so why would you try and do a bad gamma overlay that can't be calibrated (the LK does not have a multi-point gamma) when you can calibrate just fine to a power gamma of 2.4 and use that (just fine is a little dishonest, the black floor of this projector is so high that calibration software won't even let you do a power gamma, and a BT1886 gamma is closer to a 2.0 to 2.1). But you think it is a better idea for everyone to just throw your settings in and then fine tune them, all the while making massive adjustments to color/tine/contrast/brightness without taking into account how much that screws up linearity, dynamic range and color performance. Sure, I'm the guy that is doing the disservice and stroking my own ego. If I wanted to stroke my ego I would come up with my own settings and tell everyone there is no better way, but I'm smart enough to know there is.

[HarperVision]

But that is just it, I DO UNDERSTAND. I am trying to provide a service to my readers and clients by telling them that rather than go through all these base line settings that don't really exist as you prefer them, and then trying to calibrate to a color space that the projector can't reach, and then calibrate to PQ, which makes about zero sense for this projector, there is an easier way that is clear, precise and gives better results all while giving you clear standards to calibrate to and results that speak for themselves. All without nearly any of the hassle.

The ITU has already defined a standard for coverting 2020 to 709 PRECISELY FOR THIS REASON, and Panasonic implemented it. Panasonic does a fantastic job with tone mapping, including adapting to content metadata, so why would you try and do a bad gamma overlay that can't be calibrated (the LK does not have a multi-point gamma) when you can calibrate just fine to a power gamma of 2.4 and use that (just fine is a little dishonest, the black floor of this projector is so high that calibration software won't even let you do a power gamma, and a BT1886 gamma is closer to a 2.0 to 2.1). But you think it is a better idea for everyone to just throw your settings in and then fine tune them, all the while making massive adjustments to color/tine/contrast/brightness without taking into account how much that screws up linearity, dynamic range and color performance. Sure, I'm the guy that is doing the disservice and stroking my own ego. If I wanted to stroke my ego I would come up with my own settings and tell everyone there is no better way, but I'm smart enough to know there is.

No, you don’t.

I guess I will just have to keep repeating myself over and over again until you actually take time to care and to read and comprehend what I am actually saying, instead of you thinking what you think I am saying. I’ll spell it out in easy terms for you to understand hopefully

1.  I’m NOT saying this is best for ALL displays and projectors. I am saying due it’s limitations this is best for THIS projector!  So no, I am NOT stroking my ego saying what you envision I am saying. I am saying this as FACT based on having, testing and experimenting with BOTH methods (HDR vs HDR to SDR Tone mapped) for well over a year on THIS PARTICULAR MODEL, so I think that qualifies ME to say this, just as other brand experts like to preach about with THEIR extensive experience with their models.

2.  The way you suggest to tone map HDR to SDR does NOT give better results as you’re proclaiming. Again due to the LKs limitations and how it was engineered.

3.  Again and for the millionth time, I AM using a Panasonic UB820 and it IS using the Optimizer and its Luminance mapping, adapting to content metadata, etc. and its  other features.  I am just not converting HDR to SDR.  This was a big step up from when I first used the Oppo 203 to do this, as i am sure you’ll agree for once.

4. I HAVE accounted for linearity,  dynamic range, and color performance! This is what I am trying to say by telling you that you put in the base settings and then do a calibration because this accounts for those things and puts those in line and maybe if you actually listened or did that then you would see that this is the case but since you didn’t you have no authority to say otherwise in your limited time with this projector!

5.  I am not saying there is no better way in all other instances and as I have even stated many times to Javs and others and even here just above, that it is not about the lack of merits or performance of a Lumagen, madVR or any other dynamic, static or other tone mapping solution.  Those are better solutions 95% of the time. It is simply what I have found to be the best solution for getting the best possible image out of this particular model of projector with how it was designed and engineered with its dynamic dimming/automatic power control, RGBY laser phosphor, color wheel design and other design features for this particular model.

6.  I am also smart enough to know after having, testing, evaluating and experimenting with this particular model for over a year plus what is best to input to it and what the best settings are for it.  That is not stroking my ego or being arrogant as you are being by trying to say otherwise with such limited time with this model and design And trying to say otherwise, totally discounting my many, many hours on this unit.  I would never do that to you for a model that you have extensive experience with and I take offense that you do that to me, so yes that is why I take it so personal because you are basically saying that I am an idiot and a fool that after all this time still can’t figure out what is best for this particular model and you are flat out wrong no matter how you try to spin it or what you say based on your limited time.

7.  Call me when you’ve had the same amount of time testing, evaluating, watching, calibrating and experimenting with one of these. Until then, what you say ON THIS PARTICULAR MODEL is moot.

[Dylan Seeger]

The only tedious thing is having to repeat myself over and over again and realizing nobody ever reads what I am writing and cares to even try to understand what it is I’m saying.

I have said it is not about the merits of the other solutions rather the limitations of the LKs and why I have found you need to do it that way.  Of course why listen to me when I have had, tested and experimented endlessly with these for well over a year plus but you had it for only two weeks or so.

I guess you are the king and I am just the court jester.  Your total arrogance is astonishing Kris.  Just drop it Kris. It’s clear you don’t care enough to even entertain the possibility of what I’m saying and all you’re doing is a complete disservice to your readers and client base in doing so. 

Dave, it doesn't take a year to figure out how to calibrate a projector. If it takes you that long to do it, you're doing it wrong. I'm sure Kris, with his years of professional work in this field, can figure out how to make a display look its best. You say people can use your settings as a baseline to get you most of the way there, but it still needs to be calibrated at some point to look its best. Anyone who knows how to calibrate can get it done in one sitting if they needed to. It isn't a year long pursuit if you're calibrating to a specific standard. So stop trying to make it seem as if there's some sort of mysticism surrounding these BenQ models, like there's a set of settings we need to stumble upon which magically make the image so much better than calibrating it to some specific reference.

You're either forcing HDR into an SDR mode and calibrating that mode to emulate PQ/REC2020 or you're having something tonemap the image and calibrating based on how the tonemap is altering the image. There is no other way to do it correctly. There is no misunderstanding on our part so stop the pity party. It just seems like you want to call it quits because we've figured out your game and are too proud to concede anything.

[Dylan Seeger]

No, you don’t. 

I guess I will just have to keep repeating myself over and over again until you actually take time to care and to read and comprehend what I am actually saying, instead of you thinking what you think I am saying. I’ll spell it out in easy terms for you to understand hopefully

1.  I’m NOT saying this is best for ALL displays and projectors. I am saying due it’s limitations this is best for THIS projector!  So no, I am NOT stroking my ego saying what you envision I am saying. I am saying this as FACT based on having, testing and experimenting with BOTH methods (HDR vs HDR to SDR Tone mapped) for well over a year on THIS PARTICULAR MODEL, so I think that qualifies ME to say this, just as other brand experts like to preach about with THEIR extensive experience with their models. 

2.  The way you suggest to tone map HDR to SDR does NOT give better results as you’re proclaiming. Again due to the LKs limitations and how it was engineered.

3.  Again and for the millionth time, I AM using a Panasonic UB820 and it IS using the Optimizer and its Luminance mapping, adapting to content metadata, etc. and its  other features.  I am just not converting HDR to SDR.  This was a big step up from when I first used the Oppo 203 to do this, as i am sure you’ll agree for once.

4. I HAVE accounted for linearity,  dynamic range, and color performance! This is what I am trying to say by telling you that you put in the base settings and then do a calibration because this accounts for those things and puts those in line and maybe if you actually listened or did that then you would see that this is the case but since you didn’t you have no authority to say otherwise in your limited time with this projector! 

5.  I am not saying there is no better way in all other instances and as I have even stated many times to Javs and others and even here just above, that it is not about the lack of merits or performance of a Lumagen, madVR or any other dynamic, static or other tone mapping solution.  Those are better solutions 95% of the time. It is simply what I have found to be the best solution for getting the best possible image out of this particular model of projector with how it was designed and engineered with its dynamic dimming/automatic power control, RGBY laser phosphor, color wheel design and other design features for this particular model.

6.  I am also smart enough to know after having, testing, evaluating and experimenting with this particular model for over a year plus what is best to input to it and what the best settings are for it.  That is not stroking my ego or being arrogant as you are being by trying to say otherwise with such limited time with this model and design And trying to say otherwise, totally discounting my many, many hours on this unit.  I would never do that to you for a model that you have extensive experience with and I take offense that you do that to me, so yes that is why I take it so personal because you are basically saying that I am an idiot and a fool that after all this time still can’t figure out what is best for this particular model and you are flat out wrong no matter how you try to spin it or what you say based on your limited time.

7.  Call me when you’ve had the same amount of time testing, evaluating, watching, calibrating and experimenting with one of these. Until then, what you say ON THIS PARTICULAR MODEL is moot. 

Yes, Dave, for the millionth time...we know how you're setting things up. We know you're using the HDR Optimizer to alter the HDR image. But again, to do it correctly, you still need to calibrate the image based on how the UB820 is altering the stock HDR image. 

You want to make it seem as if there is some mystery behind what you're doing. There isn't. Calibration is still an objective task. If you want the image to look correct, it needs to be calibrated based upon how the player is tonemapping the image.

If you really feel this passionate about all of this, and feel so strongly that we're all wrong, please come to the mainland and prove to us just how wrong we all are. I'm sure someone will gladly host a meetup where we can do a proper shootout with the LK990 set up to your liking. Either put up or shut up. We've ALL spent time and money playing around with these projectors based on your comments. Now it's your turn...

[HarperVision]

No, you don’t. You guys contradict yourselves and what I’m saying in almost every post.

I never said it took a year to calibrate. Thanks for the condescension and personal dig once again, saying it takes a year for me to calibrate for God’s sake. Yep, I’m that incompetent. I said I have gotten to know the nuances of the projector over that time which therefore I can use to make it perform at its best with with it can and can’t do. If you say this doesn’t matter then your flat out lying.  I hear it constantly from other longtime brand/model owners and this is no different. 

I also never said it was some mystical mysticism or “magic” settings. I always was free and Open and said d exactly what I was doing and why. All of YOU are the ones making it WAY more than it has to be and creating such turmoil. Those threads were perfectly fine and people who actually listened and tried were thrilled and happy and nicely asked questions to proceed the thread and topic forward until “they” decided to come along and crap all over everything.  Funny how those novices got the concepts and figured it out and if they didn’t understand they asked questions nicely and in a honest non condescending way to actually understand and learn something instead of being stubborn thinking their “normal” way is the ONLY way.  

That’s exactly what I’m doing, hopefully soon. 

[Set11]

This thread is going in circles... just like the one in AVS.

So for the last time, and to help future owners:

1. What's your recommended settings for LK970/990 to date? 
2. If you have accounted for linearity and colour performance, then I assume this has been measured? Can you share the measurements?

[Javs]

Those threads were perfectly fine and people who actually listened and tried were thrilled and happy and nicely asked questions to proceed the thread and topic forward until “they” decided to come along and crap all over everything.  Funny how those novices got the concepts and figured it out and if they didn’t understand they asked questions nicely and in a honest non condescending way to actually understand and learn something instead of being stubborn thinking their “normal” way is the ONLY way. 

That’s exactly what I’m doing, hopefully soon.

Thats a HUGE Oxymoron.

Its OK for novices to try your settings and love them without calibration (they did it right according to you) but for pros who actually know anything about calibration, they did it wrong because they did not calibrate and thus their opinion is void.

Did you know if somebody calibrates your settings they are not even close to your settings anymore? You cant calibrate accurate with colour settings jacked either, so those would need to be dailed back so as not to clip colour.

Whas left in your settings then? Run 2.8 gamma? Is that it?

Post a graph with your settings in play showing that colour is not clipping early.

Those are areas you could provide graphs on to show how you expect people to do it. You could show the PQ curve tracking? Most of us could read those curves in our sleep based on how many hundreds we have made with the Arve tool and know exactly what you are doing to the image.

[HarperVision]

Thats a HUGE Oxymoron.

Its OK for novices to try your settings and love them without calibration (they did it right according to you) but for pros who actually know anything about calibration, they did it wrong because they did not calibrate and thus their opinion is void.

Did you know if somebody calibrates your settings they are not even close to your settings anymore? You cant calibrate accurate with colour settings jacked either, so those would need to be dailed back so as not to clip colour.

Whas left in your settings then? Run 2.8 gamma? Is that it?

Post a graph with your settings in play showing that colour is not clipping early.

Those are areas you could provide graphs on to show how you expect people to do it. You could show the PQ curve tracking? Most of us could read those curves in our sleep based on how many hundreds we have made with the Arve tool and know exactly what you are doing to the image.

That is not true at all Javs.  The colors are not jacked or clipping early. Initially they kind of are but then I calibrate to the 50 or 75% point and they track pretty nicely until they give up the ghost.  I know for a fact I posted a gamut somewhere at some point.

Within the next month to month and a half or so I should be able to have more time to research and dig into finding all the LK970 info I have. Whether you believe it or not (and I don’t care if you do honestly and I owe it to no one), at least 90% of my LK970 info was on the AGI servers because that’s who I worked with and was paid from to do calibrations on the ones sold so it was all stored there and used to attach to the customer’s invoice and emails.  I had access to it for the longest time and it abruptly ended one day before I could attempt to download or send it to myself.  I’m not sure I was even allowed to be honest since it was company property.

The PQ curve rolled off smoothly without a sharp knee to it and I know I posted an mention that very early on but the image was awesome with it that way.

[stridsvognen]

This seems to be a pretty useless debate transfered from elswhere, with no objective information.

How about some facts like contrast, ansi contrast, NATIVE, light output, and color saturation and tracking.

I think HDR is a shitshow no matter how you turn or manipulate it, and a low contrast projector will only do low dynamic range, its in its nature, no matter how bright it is.

Whats measured Anis and on off contrast with fully open iris on these projectors.? or even better whats measured black level.

[Dylan Seeger]

This seems to be a pretty useless debate transfered from elswhere, with no objective information.

How about some facts like contrast, ansi contrast, NATIVE, light output, and color saturation and tracking.

I think HDR is a shitshow no matter how you turn or manipulate it, and a low contrast projector will only do low dynamic range, its in its nature, no matter how bright it is.

Whats measured Anis and on off contrast with fully open iris on these projectors.? or even better whats measured black level.

He's been asked many times for this information. I doubt he's going to provide any objective data to back up his claims after reading his last remarks where apparently Dave will need to do some type of Mission Impossible break-in to get the supposed data he has:

BenQ LK990 First Impressions

[AVSCraig]

" Dave will need to do some type of Mission Impossible break-in to get the supposed data he has " - you nearly sent coffee through my nose !