BenQ LK990 First Impressions

[Dylan Seeger]

Now THAT is funny!!!    If you only knew.........


I would love and welcome that too.  Bring it on, although I am sure you all would only rate it based on total black levels and contrast alone, which is the real issue here.

Which is exactly what helps this look amazing!  It helps with the two laser dimming features (Automatic Power Control and SmartEco) which I have mentioned on numerous occasions here already.

Again......if you only knew.

I already explained this.  It allows you to basically present the entire main video content in the ~100 nit range, essentially alleviating the need for tone mapping (compression) in that portion of the video, leaving the remaining nit range this projector provides for specular highlights, which are basically the only portion now needing any tone mapping (compression) at all!  This results in amazing image rendition, including low ADL images btw.

Dave, again, I'm not doubting what DV does to the image. I'm sure it helps a lot. I'm just doubting how it looks through this projector. Especially when put against some of the other projectors near its price.

I remember you and Kris Deering had begun to set a shootout up. What's the deal with that? Let's all set a date and maybe we can get a few extra impartial judges to join the three of us and set up a blind test where they can pick a winner.

[AVSMike]

Now THAT is funny!!!    If you only knew.........


I would love and welcome that too.  Bring it on, although I am sure you all would only rate it based on total black levels and contrast alone, which is the real issue here.

Which is exactly what helps this look amazing!  It helps with the two laser dimming features (Automatic Power Control and SmartEco) which I have mentioned on numerous occasions here already.

Again......if you only knew.

I already explained this.  It allows you to basically present the entire main video content in the ~100 nit range, essentially alleviating the need for tone mapping (compression) in that portion of the video, leaving the remaining nit range this projector provides for specular highlights, which are basically the only portion now needing any tone mapping (compression) at all!  This results in amazing image rendition, including low ADL images btw.

So a projector with around 1,000:1 native contrast does not have to do any tone mapping for the main video content in the ~ 100 nit range. Now that would be a real magic trick. How else is it doing the low end, other than by tone mapping to the projectors capability? You keep looking at just the light output for the high end, while ignoring the low end, yet about 50% of movie ADL is 5% or less. I am not saying the LK990 does not look good, nearly all over $1,000 projectors look pretty good these days.

[AVSCraig]

So you're seriously going to sit there and proclaim that something like an OLED display, whether 55, 65, 77" or whatever displays HDR and Dolby Vision worse than what is displayed on a front projector?  I am not talking just sheer size.  I am talking about sheer visual quality and the way HDR/DV was mastered to look.

I certainly hope that's not your stance, because then your credibility would be shot.

What I am doing more replicates what these flat panels are doing, not what a nit starved JVC or Sony "HDR" projector is doing.

I never said that. I said I don't own any 4K / HDR flat panels and have zero interest in them. None. 

[woofer]

Below comments just for interest...

I had the LK970 for a while to assess and eventually sold it to a good friend who also had a Sony 760ES. 
At this time both madVR and Lumagen  were still "working on" their DTM solutions. 
My friend who purchased the LK970 initially preferred the LK970 to the 760ES due to its brightness ans sharpness advantage over the Sony.

Just recentley we set up his 760ES again to run with madVR after i built a HTPC for him.....this "Transformed" the 760ES!!
The LK970 obviosly still has the advantage of a "Sharper" image, but now with madVR,s DTM the Sony has the far better image. The big brightness advantage the LK had is pretty much  negated by madVR,s DTM on the Sony.

I also have a Lumagen 4242....results are very similar .

So , i get what other here are saying...Mike /Dylan.... 
The LK990 with the LLDV "Hack" takes the LK990 up a notch, BUT apply that or madVR / Lumagens DTM to other projectors and the those projectors also move up a notch, so you have just moved the image quality on ALL projectors up to another level , but the disavantages of the LK990 still apply.

I still have a huge respect for the LK970 i  had here !  it has a awesome lens and one of the sharpest images i have seen , but its low end contrast brings it undone on the majority of content. 

And , yes i know this is not the LK990, but contrast wise there is not that much in it between the two.

[HarperVision]

Dave, again, I'm not doubting what DV does to the image. I'm sure it helps a lot. I'm just doubting how it looks through this projector. Especially when put against some of the other projectors near its price....

I know, that's what I am laughing at! 

...I remember you and Kris Deering had begun to set a shootout up. What's the deal with that? Let's all set a date and maybe we can get a few extra impartial judges to join the three of us and set up a blind test where they can pick a winner.

I don't really recall that being a real thing.  We certainly discuss it being a good thing to do, but I am really limited financially in what I am able to do as far as travelling to areas of the country.  Now if someone wants to come here or is in an area around central PA when I am there occasionally, that can maybe happen.  I have a dealer there that is willing to host an event.  I just have to get there and with this COVID-19 crap, which spoiled my plans. 

I don't think it's about a "winner", per se'.  Each projector will bring it's own strengths and weaknesses with it and therefore those that totally favor ultimate blacks and contrast ratios only will of course choose the JVC or even a Sony nearly 100% of the time since they will ignore all the other attributes that make something like the LK990 better in many other ways, which may not have the ultimate black floor of the JVCs, but rather is "good enough" and "believable" enough as to not be a complete non-starter when taking into account the other benefits seen, which is what I have always said regarding these from the very beginning.  This is what makes the LK990 better to me, because I don't limit my vision and throw all my eggs into only one contrast basket.

[HarperVision]

I never said that. I said I don't own any 4K / HDR flat panels and have zero interest in them. None.

But that wasn't an answer to what my initial statement was inferring though.  Even if you choose to not have any 4K HDR/DV flat panels, it doesn't change the fact that those devices, for pure HDR/DV quality (not taking into account size) are widely known and accepted as the best displays to represent what it is HDR is "supposed to" look like.  One of the big reasons why is because of the added brightness levels they can reach while maintaining a "good enough" black level/contrast (in the case of LCDs at least) without having to do so much tone mapping as a nit starved, 100 nit max projector does.  What I am saying with the LK990 is the same "concept", as I have stated.

The closest we can get to full 10,000 nits is the best option.....period.  And no, before you say it, we ALL know the HDR movie itself is only within the first 100 nits, so no you won't be blinded except when they choose to do so with super high specular highlights, but isn't that then "what the director intended"?  Of course that would be blinding in a darkened room, so if you only tone map the highlights over 100 nits, like I am saying, you'll get the same benefit without retinal damage! 

[HarperVision]

Below comments just for interest...

I had the LK970 for a while to assess and eventually sold it to a good friend who also had a Sony 760ES.
At this time both madVR and Lumagen  were still "working on" their DTM solutions.
My friend who purchased the LK970 initially preferred the LK970 to the 760ES due to its brightness ans sharpness advantage over the Sony.

Just recentley we set up his 760ES again to run with madVR after i built a HTPC for him.....this "Transformed" the 760ES!!
The LK970 obviosly still has the advantage of a "Sharper" image, but now with madVR,s DTM the Sony has the far better image. The big brightness advantage the LK had is pretty much  negated by madVR,s DTM on the Sony.

I also have a Lumagen 4242....results are very similar .

So , i get what other here are saying...Mike /Dylan....
The LK990 with the LLDV "Hack" takes the LK990 up a notch, BUT apply that or madVR / Lumagens DTM to other projectors and the those projectors also move up a notch, so you have just moved the image quality on ALL projectors up to another level , but the disavantages of the LK990 still apply.

I still have a huge respect for the LK970 i  had here !  it has a awesome lens and one of the sharpest images i have seen , but its low end contrast brings it undone on the majority of content.

And , yes i know this is not the LK990, but contrast wise there is not that much in it between the two.

You're not taking into account the very real and large differences between the LK970 and the LK990, coupled with what you said by adding the LLDV mod.  Your last sentence is where you went wrong completely.  I just explained this again in my reply to Mike and many places elsewhere.  It is a completely different experience with the LK990 over the LK970, then it takes it up 2-3 notches with the addition of the LLDV tweak and using a less aggressive HDR curve on the LK990, while on other projectors like the JVCs and Sonys, it only takes it up 1 notch, especially if you don't readjust your curves and totally redo them based on what this 10,000 nit LLDV Custom DV Data Block can bring to the table.  The BIG disadvantage of those projectors now is that they top out at ~100 nits, if that, when taking these new modifications and settings into account.

The same benefits and improvements you're saying that MadVR brings to the 760ES are essentially the same things that are now being seen here on the LK990.  So to me this info is moot.

I would love to see what MadVR could do here too, but my PC isn't powerful enough yet and there is no way I am affording an Envy.  I did have a Radiance Pro here with the first few iterations of DTM and I can tell you those versions weren't as dramatic as what I see here now with LLDV.  Of course I am sure with further refinements in both the FW of the RP and doing a similar 10,000 nit setting, it could possibly have been as good or better now.  I will never know unless I get another one, but would love to find out!

[HarperVision]

How do you do a multi-quote on this forum?  I tried many things and can't seem to get it to work.  I tried quoting someone's post, then hitting "Insert Quote" on other posts I wanted to add on the reply screen that pops up, but it didn't seem to work and add the new post to my reply box.

[Paul Heroy]

How do you do a multi-quote on this forum?  I tried many things and can't seem to get it to work.  I tried quoting someone's post, then hitting "Insert Quote" on other posts I wanted to add on the reply screen that pops up, but it didn't seem to work and add the new post to my reply box.

Easiest way is probably to use the "Toggle View" button at the end of the icons when replying. That'll expose the actual tags - you want to do quote tags, with "[" and "]" around "quote" at the start and "/quote" at the end, for each individual quote.

This is a manual quote I've inserted with that technique.

[woofer]

  It is a completely different experience with the LK990 over the LK970, then it takes it up 2-3 notches with the addition of the LLDV tweak

From the MadVR Envy Thread... in relation to LLDV..



Speaking of which, here's a quote that a private beta customer (who just got his unit a couple days ago) sent to his dealer. I'm posting it here with the user's permission:

Quote:
Before starting, just want to say: OMG !!!
Forget the LLDV tweak ;-) Envy just kills it. Actually it kills everything I saw before. I’m interested to see what Envy could do with a DolbyVision source considering what it can already do with HDR.
And the most interesting, it improves in a consistent way, all the sources (I don’t see so much differences between my Oppo and my Vero 4K). Its name should be MadVR Magic. Finally we have the plug and play for all sources, all movies... before I was able to clearly identify the player who was playing the movie. With madVR Envy, it becomes really difficult. Not that the source doesn’t count anymore but the Envy does a such damn good job that it required me more effort to see the difference. It’s just impressive! And impressive also because the image is the best I’ve ever seen... It’s so cool that you feel the image is really good and you don’t feel the need to tweak anymore your config for each movies... no more never ending nights trying to find the best config you can use for all movies with LLDV, sources config, projector. It’s just work as you “dream” it should."

[Dylan Seeger]

You're not taking into account the very real and large differences between the LK970 and the LK990, coupled with what you said by adding the LLDV mod.  Your last sentence is where you went wrong completely.  I just explained this again in my reply to Mike and many places elsewhere.  It is a completely different experience with the LK990 over the LK970, then it takes it up 2-3 notches with the addition of the LLDV tweak and using a less aggressive HDR curve on the LK990, while on other projectors like the JVCs and Sonys, it only takes it up 1 notch, especially if you don't readjust your curves and totally redo them based on what this 10,000 nit LLDV Custom DV Data Block can bring to the table.  The BIG disadvantage of those projectors now is that they top out at ~100 nits, if that, when taking these new modifications and settings into account.

The same benefits and improvements you're saying that MadVR brings to the 760ES are essentially the same things that are now being seen here on the LK990.  So to me this info is moot.

I would love to see what MadVR could do here too, but my PC isn't powerful enough yet and there is no way I am affording an Envy.  I did have a Radiance Pro here with the first few iterations of DTM and I can tell you those versions weren't as dramatic as what I see here now with LLDV.  Of course I am sure with further refinements in both the FW of the RP and doing a similar 10,000 nit setting, it could possibly have been as good or better now.  I will never know unless I get another one, but would love to find out!

Well, I've seen an LK990 with madVR DTM in use, so when you factor in what was said above about LLDV vs madVR, the transitive property states its still no contest as to which throws the better image. This projector simply cannot keep up with the Sony and JVC models near (or even below) the cost of the LK990.

I will agree with you when you state that some may prefer the LK990 due it's amazing brightness and sharp image, but I would say those people are in the extreme minority. This is evidenced by how few people actually own one of these projectors. Honestly, if BenQ would sell this projector with an MSRP of $5,000, I would have a much more favorable attitude towards it. I just think for what it offers, it's too expensive.

[HarperVision]

Easiest way is probably to use the "Toggle View" button at the end of the icons when replying. That'll expose the actual tags - you want to do quote tags, with "[" and "]" around "quote" at the start and "/quote" at the end, for each individual quote.

Yes thank you.  That is actually how I do it now, but most forums have a button to do some sort of "Multi-Quotes", where you can click on each posting to add each one to your reply box in succession where you can then do one long reply post to everyone, without having separate posts to each one individually.  I know some like to do it this way to add to their post count though, haha! 

[HarperVision]

From the MadVR Envy Thread... in relation to LLDV..



Speaking of which, here's a quote that a private beta customer (who just got his unit a couple days ago) sent to his dealer. I'm posting it here with the user's permission:

Quote:
Before starting, just want to say: OMG !!!
Forget the LLDV tweak ;-) Envy just kills it. Actually it kills everything I saw before. I’m interested to see what Envy could do with a DolbyVision source considering what it can already do with HDR.
And the most interesting, it improves in a consistent way, all the sources (I don’t see so much differences between my Oppo and my Vero 4K). Its name should be MadVR Magic. Finally we have the plug and play for all sources, all movies... before I was able to clearly identify the player who was playing the movie. With madVR Envy, it becomes really difficult. Not that the source doesn’t count anymore but the Envy does a such damn good job that it required me more effort to see the difference. It’s just impressive! And impressive also because the image is the best I’ve ever seen... It’s so cool that you feel the image is really good and you don’t feel the need to tweak anymore your config for each movies... no more never ending nights trying to find the best config you can use for all movies with LLDV, sources config, projector. It’s just work as you “dream” it should."

Well I would hope it does.....for $5,000 - $12,000 more!!!

Even then, I find it funny that you all rail on me for posting such subjective, adjective induced banter and excitement when I discuss my thoughts and feelings on what I have seen and done, yet it seems perfectly fine to post your own similarly based quoted subjective "opinions" and how that seems OK and unquestioned as long as it meets what you believe and supports your stance on the matter.

What projector is this on?  What are the settings being used for LLDV on both the HDFury and projector in question?  Is MadVR doing HDR to SDR tone mapping?  How can we just blindly accept this so called "review" without any details whatsoever, based on one man's exuberant posting of a device few have even seen?  Sound familiar?

I thought I read that you were getting an Envy as a beta unit.  If so, what are your personal thoughts on this?

I bet if I had MadVR/Envy here I could make them extremely close in image quality on the LK990, and not the 1 million light years ahead as this "review" seems to make it out to be.

BTW, I have my setup for LLDV pretty much plug and play now as well.  The only exception is the occasional contrast adjustment up or down depending on the material, which is very easy to do.

[HarperVision]

Well, I've seen an LK990 with madVR DTM in use, so when you factor in what was said above about LLDV vs madVR, the transitive property states its still no contest as to which throws the better image. This projector simply cannot keep up with the Sony and JVC models near (or even below) the cost of the LK990.

I will agree with you when you state that some may prefer the LK990 due it's amazing brightness and sharp image, but I would say those people are in the extreme minority. This is evidenced by how few people actually own one of these projectors. Honestly, if BenQ would sell this projector with an MSRP of $5,000, I would have a much more favorable attitude towards it. I just think for what it offers, it's too expensive.

Oh, so you or anyone else has actually seen and used an LK990 with these exact settings I've been discussing, using native Dolby Vision with LLDV from an HDFury device with a custom 10,000 nit max Dolby Vision Data block to tailor it to your setup?  So you know how this performs first hand and not with "transitive property", so you can now speak authoritatively on this?

Yep, I didn't think so.  That is why I laugh and continue to do so.

Was the LK990 using SDR mode from MadVR, which converted HDR to SDR?  I have already established the differences between this when using normal power gamma vs ST2084 on THIS particular projector when combined with an HDR Brightness (tone curve) of -2 and 10,000 nits DV Block with the LK990's two laser dimming features engaged, Automatic Power Control and SmartEco.

It seems no matter what I say or do here, none of you will ever read thoroughly to understanding or asking real questions if you don't.  You don't give any credence to anything I say, so I do not know why I bother posting somewhere that doesn't promote open minds and discussions on topics that if nothing else should bring about some informative back and forth questions from both sides.  Instead it's always, "this can't be done" or "it can't look like that", even when the so called informed poster has never done or seen or experienced the topic in question.  I can see this if I was some sort of newbie or uneducated vidiot, but nothing could be further from the truth, even in comparison to many of those making such uninformed postings themselves.

[HarperVision]

I just wanted to put out here that I have no doubt that the MadVR Envy or even a Radiance Pro puts out an absolutely incredible image, especially with DTM.  Of course, that was never in question and I have at least seen and used a Radiance Pro with DTM on this exact LK990 that I am now trying the LLDV 10,000 nit Dolby Vision tweak on.

I am not questioning those products in the least, one of which I have used and seen personally with my exact setup I still have now, yet you all seem to question me on something none of you have seen or used personally.  Now do you see the discrepancy and hypocrisy?