BenQ LK990 First Impressions

[HarperVision]

Dave, What is the title of this thread? It is LK990 first impressions. You can't tell people that they are off topic when they are on topic. You do not control this forum nor this thread. If you want to limit a thread to just discussion of LK990 with LLDV hack, then start a thread with that topic. Also calling someone a troll just because you do not like what they posted, (post was not an attack on you and was on topic) is not cool and will get you banned.

Yep, and those were his "first impressions" from a year ago, not now, yet he is using those "first impressions" to judge what it is I am doing and saying now, which is completely different!

Coming in and posting impressions on something that isn't even the current topic at hand is the very definition of a troll in this instance.  He already gave his "first impressions" a year ago, and they no longer apply.  If he had framed it in that context then OK, but he didn't.  He judged what I have been saying NOW with this new technology and based it on what he saw a year ago with his "first impressions" of the LK990.

Just read what I just wrote to Dylan.  If I had come into your RS1000/RS2000/RS3000 thread here and proclaimed "I saw one of those WITHOUT a Radiance Pro a year ago, so therefore I conclude it is no better off now WITH a Radiance Pro with DTM", you and everyone here would pounce on me like a hungry pack of wolverines and try to "educate me" on how stupid I and the statement I made was.  Don't deny it either, because it is true and we see it happen all the time!  I have not, did not and never will do that.  So as I said to Dylan, this is equivalent to what Javs is doing here.

[Javs]

Yep, and those were his "first impressions" from a year ago, not now, yet he is using those "first impressions" to judge what it is I am doing and saying now, which is completely different!

Coming in and posting impressions on something that isn't even the current topic at hand is the very definition of a troll in this instance.  He already gave his "first impressions" a year ago, and they no longer apply.  If he had framed it in that context then OK, but he didn't.  He judged what I have been saying NOW with this new technology and based it on what he saw a year ago with his "first impressions" of the LK990.

Just read what I just wrote to Dylan.  If I had come into your RS1000/RS2000/RS3000 thread here and proclaimed "I saw one of those WITHOUT a Radiance Pro a year ago, so therefore I conclude it is no better off now WITH a Radiance Pro with DTM", you and everyone here would pounce on me like a hungry pack of wolverines and try to "educate me" on how stupid I and the statement I made was.  Don't deny it either, because it is true and we see it happen all the time!  I have not, did not and never will do that.  So as I said to Dylan, this is equivalent to what Javs is doing here.

Let me clarify some stuff then, which is what prompted me joining this thread in the first place, there is one thing I read which shows a gross misunderstanding on what Dynamic Tone MAPPING is. Look up the meaning of the word mapping and then remember that in your glossy explanations of what your LLDV hack does.

Firstly though, as Mike said, dont tell me where I can post, you dont own this thread, you just spent the last 15 pages or so hijacking it and sitting on anyone that you didnt agree with. Drop the god complex.If you dont agree with me, then construct a response or present data to counter it.

Yeah, you could absiolutely go in those RS600 threads and state that they have crap HDR, because its true, HOWEVER what you left out is that MadVR is a tool just like LLDV and you would look like nothing like an uninformed dick if you went in there and spewed that in a thread without making the correlation that nobody is using them in their stock form anymore weather they use the Panasonic, MadVR, LLDV or the like, in that respect your comments would indeed be useless. BUT THATS NOT WHAT I DID ON THE LK, is it?.

First, its FAR from COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, its actually remarkably IDENTICAL in nature.

You said this:

See, you are fundamentally not understanding or reading what I wrote.  "Settings" was probably a bad choice of words, but I have posted what I am talking about numerous times here now.

It isn't the settings I use, per se'.  It is the very real difference it makes to the resultant image (on the LK990 specifically) when you change the custom DV Data Data block (do you understand what that is?) from something like what you'd think it should be, like the max nits of your display or a known custom tone curve like 1,000 nits, to basically telling the source to be "wide open" and send all its got with a custom 10,000 nit (notice the extra zero?  Perhaps you hadn't before?) max luminance (nits) setting in the HDF.  That, along with sending the full native Dolby Vision essentially is like using a whole new technology when compared to the "old way" of doing it with custom or straight 1,000 nit HDR curves or converting from HDR BT2020 to SDR BT2020, while only being able to feed it HDR10, not full native dolby vision.

So, the technology changed here too.  It used to use straight HDR, tone mapped to the LK990 using an equivalent HDR curve to match the parameters of the tone map being used.  Then you just used the available settings in the LK990 and UB820 to create the best image possible with what you have.

Now it uses an HDFury Vertex2 (*new technology), Dolby Vision/LLDV (*new technology discovery for any HDR display), Custom DV Data Block (*new adjustable technology) using the least aggressive and most wide open HDR tone curve available on the LK990 so as to allow the purest HDR/DV signal to pass through almost unmolested, with the exception of what you tweak into a correct state based on the source material, using the contrast (sometimes) and brightness (once).

You apprarenty dont understand AT ALL what dynamic tone mapping really is, its actually everything you just said its not! COMPLETE OPPOSITE. Its not some half power curve.

Its quite iterally using the maximum throughput available in contrast per frame based on your input settings, it knows the brightness of your display because you TELL IT, you can feed it HDR output too if you like, you can use it on OLEDs with 800 nits, whatever you like, its very dynamic and adaptable, it just so happens that for projectors its usually best to use the SDR translation which is NOTHING OTHER THAN A CONTAINER from ZERO TO ONE, dont over complicate something so simple! 

You cannot fill a cup which is already full.

10,000 nits ceiling or 600 nits tone mapped to max contrast are BOTH THE SAME according to any display which does not do 10,000 nits.

As I understand it from everything I read by speaking to calm indiviuduals, LLDV seems to be doing something similar, its sending a DV HDR signal (which is nothing other than a name) that maps the max frame contrast to the top of the container so long as thats how the director encoded it (which is its actual function), its like a new curve for every frame, AM I WRONG? I domt think so.

This the thing you are jumping up and down so hard about with LLDV. Since they are almost THE SAME THING by definition then you will understand why I DONT CARE, because a year ago, I TESTED IT on the LK990 in both HDR and SDR modes. I had to use HDR output with MadVR (STILL DYNAMIC) also to get BT2020 (or whatever approximation of it the machine was capable) and yes I had to set the HDR slider in the BenQ up or down to make it work and not harsh I dont remember which, its irrelevant, but the point is, I had frame by frame tone mapping just like you do.  EVEN if its 95% the same as what you had and your LLDV hack is 5% better which I SERIOUSLY doubt, then what right do you have to steamroll everyone and say they havent seen your god like setup?

Since you havent had much experience with DTM at all (Lumagen took a long time to get truly good), you are getting a taste of it now and you are so excited by it that you take offence to the smallest of things. Well, we have all been using it for quite some time, the excitement has wore off because we all know that no matter what the display is, we can get the same exact HDR image if we choose which is 100% optimised to how its intended to be viewed.. We have been helping develop DTM in MadVR for 2 years now as a community, we certainly dont jump down the throats of others who we disagree with.

6. LLDV?  Nope, I never said it was superior to any other DTM solution out there other than adding native Dolby Vision capabilities.  I only said it is better than using static curves, HDR10, SDR/BT2020, etc. I always have come from the standpoint that LLDV is an alternative which can be used in place of the other higher priced and more complicated solutions presented with the Lumagen Radiance Pro, Envy, MadVR, buying a brand new JVC with FA, and also with the added benefit of being able to play native Dolby Vision sources on your HDR10 only display.  I present this as a solution for those who otherwise do not have the budget or inclination to hassle with a PC in their home theaters.  I also presented this as a great use in combination with what the LK990 can do.  They seem to work very symbiotically together for some reason.  This can be confirmed by the comments made by others who have tried the same settings (10,000 nits custom DV String Data Block, etc.) on other projectors and reported different and less satisfying results.

GREAT, so have the decency to accept that others have used this 'other, not superior' DTM solution with the LK990 and THUS their observations are in fact VERY VALID. This ends the debate! Why are you getting so uptight when you already admit its likely not better, because how could it be when they both do very similar things.

LASTLY, the contrast on the LK is crap, dont be personally offended by this objective fact. There is no way around this, this is my problem with it. If you gave me the exact same machine with at a minimum 10k native and 20-30k dynamic, it would be a very different conversation, but no, its contrast is 10x lower than that, thus its just not enough. It looked great on very bright scenes, REALLY GREAT, but that was not enough as a whole sum of its parts, it was too jarring with things like Game of Thrones which was on at the time, The Star Trek show, and never did I say it crushed blacks, I said it was tough to make out gradations down there (Kris said the same - are you saying he doesnt know what hes doing either) because the contrast down there is so bad that the steps all appear basically grey and the black floor makes it difficult to differentiate them, in that respect it has bad shadow detail, Kris also said this - I have never even met him, nor Dylan, yet we come to the same conclusions. Woofer had an LK970 so dont bring his observations into it, however he said the same about shadow detail and even posted pics showing how bad it was.

[HarperVision]

Let me clarify some stuff then, which is what prompted me joining this thread in the first place, there is one thing I read which shows a gross misunderstanding on what Dynamic Tone MAPPING is. Look up the meaning of the word mapping and then remember that in your glossy explanations of what your LLDV hack does.

Firstly though, as Mike said, dont tell me where I can post, you dont own this thread, you just spent the last 15 pages or so hijacking it and sitting on anyone that you didnt agree with. Drop the god complex.If you dont agree with me, then construct a response or present data to counter it....

Trust me, I know what dynamic tone mapping is.  Those aren't "glossy explanations" of what LLDV or DTM is, I am simply stating what it does, as I have said a million times, ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR!  Yes, I am sure that DTM from a Radiance Pro, Envy, MadVR would give similar benefit, as I have also stated many times.  It is and never was a fight over that and which is better really.  Just read my reply to Dylan to see.  Did you read that, or just come here and post this without doing so?  The fundamental differences I am pointing out between LLDV and DTM when using Radiance Pro, MadVR, etc. is that first off, I don't convert HDR to an SDR container, hence I'm using THE LK990's ST2084 HDR MODE, and not it's SDR modes, which are inferior ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR as I have said countless times as well.  The next advantage is that we can now play the native Dolby Vision version of the video source, which EVERYONE KNOWS is superior to its HDR10 counterpart, or at least anyone that knows anything about HDR anyway.

These two fundamental differences are what makes this completely different than last time and what you're saying now being compared to before.

So tell me how defending my position that the LK990 does not look like what you're portraying it to look like, at least when I do it the way I am speaking of, is me having a "God Complex"?  This quote below is what I am arguing and defending Javs, nothing more, and you are wrong:

....LASTLY, the contrast on the LK is crap, dont be personally offended by this objective fact. There is no way around this, this is my problem with it. If you gave me the exact same machine with at a minimum 10k native and 20-30k dynamic, it would be a very different conversation, but no, its contrast is 10x lower than that, thus its just not enough. It looked great on very bright scenes, REALLY GREAT, but that was not enough as a whole sum of its parts, it was too jarring with things like Game of Thrones which was on at the time, The Star Trek show, and never did I say it crushed blacks, I said it was tough to make out gradations down there (Kris said the same - are you saying he doesnt know what hes doing either) because the contrast down there is so bad that the steps all appear basically grey and the black floor makes it difficult to differentiate them, in that respect it has bad shadow detail, Kris also said this - I have never even met him, nor Dylan, yet we come to the same conclusions. Woofer had an LK970 so dont bring his observations into it, however he said the same about shadow detail and even posted pics showing how bad it was.

I see this every single day and it is NOT presented the way you're describing it.  As a matter of funny fact, my entire family has been watching all 8 seasons of Game of Thrones and we don't see what you're describing at all with this LLDV setup ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR.  I can certainly replicate what you're describing by switching to SDR, turning off LLDV, taking the Vertex2 out of the loop, tone mapping HDR/BT2020 to SDR/BT2020, but why would I do that when it is so inferior and looks as bad as you're describing it?  This in effect proves what I am saying!

In fact, when I played Season 8 on UHD Bluray with native Dolby Vision (the other seasons were just SDR HD from HBO Go, converted to LLDV), it was ever better in the black level/shadow detail/contrast department.  Even my ignorant to video family noticed this and made an unprovoked comment about it.

Someone else trying the LLDV hack for the first time also commented about this low level detail improvement when they compared regular HDR10 to LLDV.  See quote below.  That is what I am saying improves this ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR.  I am sure this is the same as what you're doing with DTM, but again, you aren't starting with a native DV source or processing.

Thank you for this recommendation.  I finally got around to comparing the opening 10 minutes of "Black Panther ".

LLDV does appear to give more contrast. The "sand people" generated at the beginning in B&W appear to be more 3 dimensional than they do in HDR10. Similarly, with the kids playing basketball at night in the capark. The tonal gradations of the night sky against the lights shining on the kids again give the scene more depth in LLDV.

It looks similar to comparing gamma 2.2 vs 2.4 in SDR.

Another added bonus appears to be the specular highlights of the gold necklaces worn by two characters in the planning room have a bit more luminance.

I can now see a difference between GENUINE LLDV and HDR10 on my JVC.

More testing to be done with material from the Oppo converting HDR10 to LLDV.

See my YouTube video link at the end of this post.

...Yeah, you could absiolutely go in those RS600 threads and state that they have crap HDR, because its true, HOWEVER what you left out is that MadVR is a tool just like LLDV and you would look like nothing like an uninformed dick if you went in there and spewed that in a thread without making the correlation that nobody is using them in their stock form anymore weather they use the Panasonic, MadVR, LLDV or the like, in that respect your comments would indeed be useless. BUT THATS NOT WHAT I DID ON THE LK, is it?.....

OK, then we agree because that's exactly what I said too. I didn't leave that out at all.  In fact I used the Radiance Pro as my basis instead of MadVR, but they're both tools right?  Again, did you actually read my reply to Dylan where I said this?

...First, its FAR from COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, its actually remarkably IDENTICAL in nature....

It IS completely different.  I am starting with either a native Dolby Vision source video file, or one that is processed using the Dolby Vision processing algorithms (HDR10, SDR HD, etc.) in the source device.  You are starting with HDR10 (inferior to DV), SDR HD and then processing that inferior (to DV) signal with great processing such as the Radiance Pro or MadVR, which does the best it can with with that inferior (to DV) signal, which in the end certainly does look quite amazing though, I agree.  It is the extra low level details, color capabilities, etc. of DV which make this solution better than what I saw with the Radiance Pro ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR.  That is my point in all this Javs, which you in fact have not seen.

Why doesn't someone try connecting an HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro in between their source device like a UHD Bluray player capable of LLDV and their Radiance Pro?  This way you could use the native DV on the disc, convert to LLDV, send as what appears as normal HDR10 into the Radiance Pro, and then let it do whatever it does to see what the end result is?  It may very well be better than sending HDR10, or for DV discs, just the HDR10 layer.  Who knows, but it could show what it is I AM talking about here and you can see maybe the benefits of native DV vs HDR10.

....You said this:

You apprarenty dont understand AT ALL what dynamic tone mapping really is, its actually everything you just said its not! COMPLETE OPPOSITE. Its not some half power curve.

Its quite iterally using the maximum throughput available in contrast per frame based on your input settings, it knows the brightness of your display because you TELL IT, you can feed it HDR output too if you like, you can use it on OLEDs with 800 nits, whatever you like, its very dynamic and adaptable, it just so happens that for projectors its usually best to use the SDR translation which is NOTHING OTHER THAN A CONTAINER from ZERO TO ONE, dont over complicate something so simple! 

You cannot fill a cup which is already full.

10,000 nits ceiling or 600 nits tone mapped to max contrast are BOTH THE SAME according to any display which does not do 10,000 nits.

As I understand it from everything I read by speaking to calm indiviuduals, LLDV seems to be doing something similar, its sending a DV HDR signal (which is nothing other than a name) that maps the max frame contrast to the top of the container so long as thats how the director encoded it (which is its actual function), its like a new curve for every frame, AM I WRONG? I domt think so.

This the thing you are jumping up and down so hard about with LLDV. Since they are almost THE SAME THING by definition then you will understand why I DONT CARE, because a year ago, I TESTED IT on the LK990 in both HDR and SDR modes. I had to use HDR output with MadVR (STILL DYNAMIC) also to get BT2020 (or whatever approximation of it the machine was capable) and yes I had to set the HDR slider in the BenQ up or down to make it work and not harsh I dont remember which, its irrelevant, but the point is, I had frame by frame tone mapping just like you do.  EVEN if its 95% the same as what you had and your LLDV hack is 5% better which I SERIOUSLY doubt, then what right do you have to steamroll everyone and say they havent seen your god like setup?

Since you havent had much experience with DTM at all (Lumagen took a long time to get truly good), you are getting a taste of it now and you are so excited by it that you take offence to the smallest of things. Well, we have all been using it for quite some time, the excitement has wore off because we all know that no matter what the display is, we can get the same exact HDR image if we choose which is 100% optimised to how its intended to be viewed.. We have been helping develop DTM in MadVR for 2 years now as a community, we certainly dont jump down the throats of others who we disagree with.

GREAT, so have the decency to accept that others have used this 'other, not superior' DTM solution with the LK990 and THUS their observations are in fact VERY VALID. This ends the debate! Why are you getting so uptight when you already admit its likely not better, because how could it be when they both do very similar things.....

Oh, I know what DTM is Javs, don't worry about that.  I described why this is different already in the reply to the paragraph above when using DV processing.

What you seem to be failing to grasp is that the main difference is that all the tone mapping, DV processing, etc. is being done in the source player (Sony X800M2, AppleTV 4K, etc.).  This then is sent to the LK990 which is setup with a static, as big as possible, HDR ST2084 curve (HDR BRightness -2), so in essence is what you're saying but the difference is it's a "static curve container" for the "dynamic LLDV/tone mapping", rather than a static SDR gamma curve, like you did with the likes of MadVR and Radiance Pro.  This is why I am saying it is so different ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR, which has inferior SDR modes compared to when using HDR ST2084 ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR

I am not jumping down anyone's throat other than to disagree and defend the fact of how you're describing the low level performance when using LLDV with an HDR ST2084 curve ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR, which in fact no, you haven't seen or experienced.

I have asked this before with no response.  How would you describe the LK990's black level performance, based on these two choices in this YouTube video?  You must pick one which you feel it is most like.  Please be honest:

[HarperVision]

Crikey!

What'd I miss??

BenQ LK990 First Impressions

I don't know, but this first post here by you in reply to what we are talking about now certainly seems to be quite confrontational and appears that you came in looking for a fight, no?  How else was I supposed to take that, especially given our history?

[Javs]

I don't know, but this first post here by you in reply to what we are talking about now certainly seems to be quite confrontational and appears that you came in looking for a fight, no?  How else was I supposed to take that, especially given our history?

Clearly with a grain of salt...

If you dont want me to comment, DONT name drop me as you did once or twice in this thread.

It was heated before I got here...

[Javs]

Trust me, I know what dynamic tone mapping is.  Those aren't "glossy explanations" of what LLDV or DTM is, I am simply stating what it does, as I have said a million times, ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR!  Yes, I am sure that DTM from a Radiance Pro, Envy, MadVR would give similar benefit, as I have also stated many times.  It is and never was a fight over that and which is better really.

Well you are still a little unsure on it that's clear below...

Just read my reply to Dylan to see.  Did you read that, or just come here and post this without doing so? 

Is that really necessary to say?

The fundamental differences I am pointing out between LLDV and DTM when using Radiance Pro, MadVR, etc. is that first off, I don't convert HDR to an SDR container, hence I'm using THE LK990's ST2084 HDR MODE, and not it's SDR modes, which are inferior ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR as I have said countless times as well.

I did that too! I stated it half a dozen times including a year ago, what, you think I just tried one setting and called it crap? I did every possible video signal chain combination to get MadVR and HDR working its best on the LK990, I WANTED it to look good. I too fed it HDR and put the HDR brightness down a click or two.

THEREFORE its not a difference, is it.

The next advantage is that we can now play the native Dolby Vision version of the video source, which EVERYONE KNOWS is superior to its HDR10 counterpart, or at least anyone that knows anything about HDR anyway.

These two fundamental differences are what makes this completely different than last time and what you're saying now being compared to before.

What, the one in 10 discs with actual Dolby Vision? Don't call the LLDV hack 'native' Dolby Vision, its NOT. Its a spoof.

I see this every single day and it is NOT presented the way you're describing it.  As a matter of funny fact, my entire family has been watching all 8 seasons of Game of Thrones and we don't see what you're describing at all with this LLDV setup ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR.  I can certainly replicate what you're describing by switching to SDR, turning off LLDV, taking the Vertex2 out of the loop, tone mapping HDR/BT2020 to SDR/BT2020, but why would I do that when it is so inferior and looks as bad as you're describing it?  This in effect proves what I am saying!

Purely subjective... How are either of us supposed to quantify this, you are assuming you are seeing something different to me, yet we are both verbally describing something. Its useless without empirical data. MEASURE THE ON SCREEN CONTRAST if you are so sure its better. It should be EASY with any scene you choose, Measure the black and white portions of a shot, and PROVE that the black is deeper with LLDV vs without.

In fact, when I played Season 8 on UHD Bluray with native Dolby Vision (the other seasons were just SDR HD from HBO Go, converted to LLDV), it was ever better in the black level/shadow detail/contrast department.  Even my ignorant to video family noticed this and made an unprovoked comment about it.

See above.

It is also EASY to induce contrast variances by tweaking tone mapping settings, gosh man, what do you think people have been doing for 2 years in the MadVR thread, we OBSESS over that kind of stuff. Have you looked through that thread recently? There is HARDCORE analasis there, please do not discount the attention to detail.

Someone else trying the LLDV hack for the first time also commented about this low level detail improvement when they compared regular HDR10 to LLDV.  See quote below.  That is what I am saying improves this ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR.  I am sure this is the same as what you're doing with DTM, but again, you aren't starting with a native DV source or processing.

Good for them, they got a taste of good dynamic tone mapping for the first time. Give me a review from someone who actively uses MadVR.

See my YouTube video link at the end of this post.

That video is rubbish. This is why:

Projectors Used: Epson 740HD - 15,000:1 Epson 5030UB - 600,000:1

Both those projectors are very low contrast projectors the numbers are completely fiction. The guy didnt even expose the video properly, so they are both rubbish.

OK, then we agree because that's exactly what I said too. I didn't leave that out at all.  In fact I used the Radiance Pro as my basis instead of MadVR, but they're both tools right?  Again, did you actually read my reply to Dylan where I said this?

Of course I did. But you still litter it with confusion on your behalf either on the side of LLDV or not understanding how MadVR DTM works.

It IS completely different.  I am starting with either a native Dolby Vision source video file, or one that is processed using the Dolby Vision processing algorithms (HDR10, SDR HD, etc.) in the source device.  You are starting with HDR10 (inferior to DV), SDR HD and then processing that inferior (to DV) signal with great processing such as the Radiance Pro or MadVR, which does the best it can with with that inferior (to DV) signal, which in the end certainly does look quite amazing though, I agree.  It is the extra low level details, color capabilities, etc. of DV which make this solution better than what I saw with the Radiance Pro ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR.  That is my point in all this Javs, which you in fact have not seen.

Actually, its NOT.

Dont talk about native Dolby Vision file because its a 1 in 10 scenario. We are mostly focusing here on the full time abilities, if you argument is that you can get native DV on the 1 in 10 discs that have it, that's amazing for you, but your argument is that ALL discs with the LLDV hack look absolutely incredible because its 'Native DV', which it isn't.

You dont really know anything about the 'algorithms' you just happen to like them. You are still starting with the so called inferior source in all cases. There is NO DV metadata on the discs that are not encoded in DV, so its moot. You are just eating a different flavour of ice cream.

Why doesn't someone try connecting an HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro in between their source device like a UHD Bluray player capable of LLDV and their Radiance Pro?  This way you could use the native DV on the disc, convert to LLDV, send as what appears as normal HDR10 into the Radiance Pro, and then let it do whatever it does to see what the end result is?  It may very well be better than sending HDR10, or for DV discs, just the HDR10 layer.  Who knows, but it could show what it is I AM talking about here and you can see maybe the benefits of native DV vs HDR10.

I only have a Linker, does it work with that? Ill try it on my JVC if it does. But that's pretty frustrating because if I am able to even photograph a difference easily and show it here, then WHY couldn't you do it any-time in the past year yourself rather than going round in circles? Do you not have a camera at all? I find that hard to believe, you have meters, you have certifications, surely you can come up with SOME DATA. If I turn around and do it in the space of a few hours its going to piss me off that you couldn't put in the effort to do it yourself and could have saved all this banter...

And THEN what if I say its 90% the same, or inferior to DTM, we will go around in circles again... oh your projector is nits started etc etc...

Oh, I know what DTM is Javs, don't worry about that.  I described why this is different already in the reply to the paragraph above when using DV processing.

But you got some of it confused...

What you seem to be failing to grasp is that the main difference is that all the tone mapping, DV processing, etc. is being done in the source player (Sony X800M2, AppleTV 4K, etc.).  This then is sent to the LK990 which is setup with a static, as big as possible, HDR ST2084 curve (HDR BRightness -2), so in essence is what you're saying but the difference is it's a "static curve container" for the "dynamic LLDV/tone mapping", rather than a static SDR gamma curve, like you did with the likes of MadVR and Radiance Pro.  This is why I am saying it is so different ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR, which has inferior SDR modes compared to when using HDR ST2084 ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR

NO!

Here is another point of confusion,

MadVR IS the source. You think the projector is doing anything? The advantage of the/my/any JVC or Sony or whatever is its reliable and can be calibrated properly to a standard. I could also load an ST2084 EOTF onto the JVC and then tell MadVR to output HDR and that the display luminance is 100 nits, then it will tone map exactly as it should to the 10,000 nits ST2084 HDR EOTF, that's what it does when I click THIS:

BenQ LK990 First Impressions

But in the case of the LK, you are NOT actually doing that, you are choosing HDR brightness -2, you think that is a flat EOTF, you have just introduced your own manipulation? I dont think so, if you disagree, please measure the native EOTF for us and post it showing the scale and where it rolls off at HDR -2, it's easy to do!

I am not jumping down anyone's throat other than to disagree and defend the fact of how you're describing the low level performance when using LLDV with an HDR ST2084 curve ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR, which in fact no, you haven't seen or experienced.

But my opinion is my own. Who are you to say I am wrong? I measured it, I observed it, dont tell me that I was not able to see the max contrast available from the machine, because it was not difficult to do.

If you can measure over 5k:1 dynamic, I will give you a cookie!

If you disagree, then measure something to show otherwise as I stated earlier, or accept that you and I have VERY different ideas on what good contrast is.

I have asked this before with no response.  How would you describe the LK990's black level performance, based on these two choices in this YouTube video?  You must pick one which you feel it is most like.  Please be honest:

I would love to pick one, but it wouldnt be fair to anybody because this video is misleading, the projectors are both ~5k:1 machines, even with the DI you might get 20k I dont know Mike can chime in but the numbers on both machines are stratospherically low even compared to a Sony. If I said it looks like the top image then you would say but in most content the contrast in bright scenes was great (which I agree with) however that video was utter crap in bright scenes, and I could clearly make out his speakers. His room is NOT TREATED and his on screen ANSI would be no better than 80-100:1. I saw the LK ANSI at 450:1 IN my room.

That video is also highly brightness varied, remember in testing (some of the time) I also used an ND filter on the BenQ in my room, so I lowered the black floor as MUCH as I could to try and compare.

[AVSMike]

The 5030 is around 5,000:1 native. I can't remember the 740HD, but I would be surprised if it exceeded 2,000:1.

[Dylan Seeger]

And if the DI works similar to the one in the 5050UB, with real content it only doubles native contrast. So it's really like 10,000:1 dynamic with real video and around 50-60000:1 max dynamic contrast if you have an all black image.

[HarperVision]

Clearly with a grain of salt...

Why would it be "Clearly with a grain of salt..." if you came into the thread posting a fighting video, "clearly" showing you came ready to "join the fight" against me and my position?  What is and always has been clear, is that you never thought of me as one of your internet pals or being part of the "cool kids group" of like-minded individuals you have going here, so why would I have taken it any other way, Javs?

...If you dont want me to comment, DONT name drop me as you did once or twice in this thread.

It was heated before I got here...

I told you why I name dropped and why I said I was going to email you.  It was because I thought I could actually have an adult, man to man open minded discussion with you about this new thing I discovered and I thought maybe based on your history that you'd have something valuable to bring to the table.  I see once again that I was wrong in that assumption.  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me, so it'll NEVER happen again, that I can assure you Javs.

[Javs]

Why would it be "Clearly with a grain of salt..." if you came into the thread posting a fighting video, "clearly" showing you came ready to "join the fight" against me and my position?  What is and always has been clear, is that you never thought of me as one of your internet pals or being part of the "cool kids group" of like-minded individuals you have going here, so why would I have taken it any other way, Javs?

I told you why I name dropped and why I said I was going to email you.  It was because I thought I could actually have an adult, man to man open minded discussion with you about this new thing I discovered and I thought maybe based on your history that you'd have something valuable to bring to the table.  I see once again that I was wrong in that assumption.  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me, so it'll NEVER happen again, that I can assure you Javs.

Thats enough Dave let it go.

You are actually exhausting to even talk to.

[HarperVision]

Well you are still a little unsure on it that's clear below...

Ummmmm, no.  I am very sure of it.  You didn't understand a thing I wrote in my reply, which I explain below.....again.

...Is that really necessary to say?...

Yes, because based on your replies, it appears you hadn't read it.

...I did that too! I stated it half a dozen times including a year ago, what, you think I just tried one setting and called it crap? I did every possible video signal chain combination to get MadVR and HDR working its best on the LK990, I WANTED it to look good. I too fed it HDR and put the HDR brightness down a click or two.

THEREFORE its not a difference, is it.....

Yes, as I said it IS a difference.  When you did it, was your signal going into the LK990 SDR/BT2020 in the first instance?  Yes, it was, so therefore it wasn't using the HDR ST2084 mode of the LK990.

Secondly, after the first attempt using SDR/BT2020, as you state, you tried HDR10, correct?  Well, is HDR10 the same as LLDV Dolby Vision Profile 5, especially when the source is native Dolby Vision?  Let me answer that for you....the answer is NO!

So therefore it IS INDEED different!  So please, either try EXACTLY what I did, or hold your false assumptions until you do.

...What, the one in 10 discs with actual Dolby Vision? Don't call the LLDV hack 'native' Dolby Vision, its NOT. Its a spoof....

This is where you're totally and unequivocally WRONG Javs!  LLDV is based on Dolby Vision's Profile 5 and is just as much "Dolby Vision" as their original profile when the source material is native Dolby Vision, like on the various Dolby Vision encoded UHD Blurays such as Black Panther, etc.  The ONLY difference is the Dolby Vision processing is done in the source instead of the DV capable display.  The source device, say a Sony X800M2 UHD Bluray player, is reading the EXACT SAME Dolby Vision layer off of the disc and using the EXACT SAME video and metadata as when it is connected to an original profile DV capable display, such as an LG OLED.  And now that we have the capability to customize the DV Data Block String so we can tell the source device EXACTLY what we have connected to it and its paramters like max luminance, min luminance, color gamut and its precise points, etc., EXACTLY like what something like an LG OLED does to get the EXACT SAME response form the source device as if it were hooked up to a native DV display with its EDID characteristics reported back to the source for customization with that EXACT display device!

Even when the source file is SDR HD or HDR10, when you use LLDV and have DV locked on in the source player like the Sony X800M2, it still uses the DV processing algorithms built into the Sony to convert the source file video to a best approximation of DV, and all the benefits thereof, such as improved shadow detail/steps of low level grey, better low level color rendition, better highlight detail and recovery, etc.  This is clearly easy to see just by comparing when those source video files are displayed in their native mode (SDR HD or HDR10).  I never ONCE said that this is "native Dolby Vision" though, so not sure where you're getting that from?  (* I am not saying that MadVR, RP, Envy can't also do this or similar.  Now we are into the monetary side of the equation for which you decide to use)

Perhaps you have some reading and researching to do.

...Purely subjective... How are either of us supposed to quantify this, you are assuming you are seeing something different to me, yet we are both verbally describing something....

Yes it's subjective, but you're saying the image is hazy and milky at certain low levels and I am saying it is not.  The YouTube video I linked to and you totally over-analyzed the purpose of was linked so that you could just look at both SUBJECTIVELY and tell me which one more matched SUBJECTIVELY the haziness you think you saw with the LK990, then I would also say which one I think it looks more like.  This way we would have an OBJECTIVE point of reference to go on.  You instead chose to ignore it and then tried to over analyze and over think the videos and why they were linked in the first place (your comments below), which is totally irrelevant to what I was asking of you.  I watched it again and you can clearly see that the top one's black bars/"raster" area and the image itself is more grey, hazy, milky and washed out than the bottom video.  That is ALL I was trying to establish Javs.

...Its useless without empirical data. MEASURE THE ON SCREEN CONTRAST if you are so sure its better. It should be EASY with any scene you choose, Measure the black and white portions of a shot, and PROVE that the black is deeper with LLDV vs without....

On this we think alike. I thought of this exact thing also.  As I stated in a previous post, I am still searching for a good test pattern source to use for what this LLDV is doing.  I didn't get consistent results when using the regular sources like R. Masciola's patterns, S&M UHD disc, etc.  I bought Ryan's DV patterns but for some reason they keep showing as 8 bit on the color patches, which would be normal in the original DV profiles since they're YCbCr 12 bit 4:2:2 disguised in an RGB 8 bit container, even when I am playing them in the Profile 5 LLDV DV mode.  Maybe it is doing it right and just displaying that way for some reason, idk.  I need to talk to Ryan to clear it up.

But yes, I agree and was going to do what you suggested here as well.

...It is also EASY to induce contrast variances by tweaking tone mapping settings, gosh man, what do you think people have been doing for 2 years in the MadVR thread, we OBSESS over that kind of stuff. Have you looked through that thread recently? There is HARDCORE analasis there, please do not discount the attention to detail....

I am not discounting anything, especially MadVR or even the Radiance Pro. ALL I ever said was that ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR, using SDR/BT2020 as an input signal which kicks in the LK990's SDR modes, is not as good as sending an HDR mode so it kicks into its ST2084 HDR mode.  I have confirmed this numerous times when I had the Radiance Pro here, trying both SDR/BT2020 and HDR/BT2020 over and over again.  I am also now saying that NOW when using LLDV, it is even better!  This is what I am saying you have never done yet, and you haven't.  Although you did do something similar using HDR/BT2020 processing with MadVR, then yes you should (but apparently didn't) get similar results as my HDR/BT2020, but again when native Dolby Vision is involved, which is what I described in my post you quoted (GoT Season 8 in UHD 4K NATIVE Dolby Vision), this is what you haven't done and is therefore.....different....VERY different I might add, and it is easy to see too!  Many, many people have verified this too.

This is also what I am NOT saying.  I am NOT saying that MadVR, Envy, Lumagen Radiance Pro, etc. ON ANY OTHER PROJECTOR THAN THE LK990 (i.e. - JVC RS2000/3000/4500, SOny VW885/995ES, etc.) doesn't look spectacular, because those projectors do have much better SDR performance and low level black and contrast which would take advantage of this better SDR performance when using those processors.  I thought my Radiance Pro in HDR10/BT2020 looked incredible before I totally and reluctantly sold it due to health and finance issues.....until I saw native Dolby Vision using this LLDV trick ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR.

(*OK, now I know many will misunderstand and misconstrue what I just wrote, so I am ready to reply, so go ahead haha)

...Good for them, they got a taste of good dynamic tone mapping for the first time. Give me a review from someone who actively uses MadVR....

Yep, and they also saved TONS of cash over buying a super high end, more expensive video processor like the Radiance Pro or Envy which they most likely can't and never will be able to afford!  They also didn't have to buy (also more expensive), build and/or maintain a PC in their HT environment, which many like me never want to have to do and deal with the hassles that it most likely will involve, especially those that aren't as PC or even tech savvy as you and I.

So tell me again how this is a bad thing or a disadvantage, being able to get dynamic tone mapping and also native DV support (which your Radiance Pros, Envys and MadVRs can't do btw) at utterly substantial cash savings of thousands of dollars and/or time savings and hassles with setup and maintenance of a PC?  I spoke with that ISF Calibrator/Dealer from Perth yesterday about LLDV, and he said that the Radiance Pro, which he is a dealer for, goes for about $10,000 there.  That is 20 TIMES what it costs for a Vertex2!  Granted, the RP does a lot more and may have slightly better images depending on which display it's used with, but at what point does the price/performance difference kick in at 20 TIMES the price???  I had them both and I can tell you, maybe 2 times the price of the Vertex2 for the RP is what I would pay, maybe even 3 times, but never 20 TIMES unless my financial situation drastically changed.  Beleive me, if I could I would have the Envy with a JVC RS4500 right now, but I would also now have an HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro in the chain so I could play native DV sources when they are available.  I hear it is especially good to do this with the AppleTV 4K since its conversion from DV sources to HDR10 is sub-optimal.  I believe this is why folks like @Claw and @Dominic Chan use it.

...That video is rubbish. This is why:

Projectors Used: Epson 740HD - 15,000:1 Epson 5030UB - 600,000:1

Both those projectors are very low contrast projectors the numbers are completely fiction. The guy didnt even expose the video properly, so they are both rubbish.

Of course I did. But you still litter it with confusion on your behalf either on the side of LLDV or not understanding how MadVR DTM works......

See my above replies.....

...Actually, its NOT.

Dont talk about native Dolby Vision file because its a 1 in 10 scenario. We are mostly focusing here on the full time abilities, if you argument is that you can get native DV on the 1 in 10 discs that have it, that's amazing for you, but your argument is that ALL discs with the LLDV hack look absolutely incredible because its 'Native DV', which it isn't....

I never said SDR HD or HDR10 was "native" Dolby Vision.  Not once!  I said it is being mapped and processed using Dolby Vision processing and algorithms, which are and do look better than prior iterations of what I used with those sources before ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR

...You dont really know anything about the 'algorithms' you just happen to like them. You are still starting with the so called inferior source in all cases. There is NO DV metadata on the discs that are not encoded in DV, so its moot. You are just eating a different flavour of ice cream....

Please oh please tell me how it is you know that, Javs?  I have been researching Dolby Vision for a long time now, reading white papers and watching videos direct from Dolby and from mastering studio companies, among many other things.

I know I am starting from an inferior source.  I am just finishing it off with a superior dynamic tone mapping and processing algorithm than what I had previously with HDR10 only.

Did I ever say or infer that there WAS DV Metadata on those SDR or HDR10 sources?  I'm not that ignorant, so I am confused, but thanks again for the condescension regarding my knowledge and abilities.  :rolleyes:

....I only have a Linker, does it work with that? Ill try it on my JVC if it does. But that's pretty frustrating because if I am able to even photograph a difference easily and show it here, then WHY couldn't you do it any-time in the past year yourself rather than going round in circles? Do you not have a camera at all? I find that hard to believe, you have meters, you have certifications, surely you can come up with SOME DATA. If I turn around and do it in the space of a few hours its going to piss me off that you couldn't put in the effort to do it yourself and could have saved all this banter...

I think you may be able to get hold of someone that has the same projector as you and also an HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/MAESTRO which they can then create a custom EDID using the Custom DV Data Block/String parameters.  They can then save this custom EDID and email it to you for you to load it into your Linker, most likely slot 10 which is user loadable if I recall on that device.  I would start with @Claw, @Dominic Chan, @Mark Swift and @HDFury/Kento since they may have the same gear and more info in the case of HDFury.

The only camera of any value and performance I have is the one built into my iPhone 11 Pro.  I am and never was into photography.  My entire Home Theater life and limited finances have pretty much revolved around projectors and has since my first GE Imager/Panasonic PT-101 480i CRT back in 1996 (but yeah, I am just an idiot and clown when it comes to them, right?), except for a couple years I worked for Alan and Laurie at AV Science and TAW, Inc with Phil Tuttobene and Deniz Mutlu, who got me into some pretty high end audio as well with EAD amps, Lexicon processor and B&W speakers.  I sold those when I got sick and was bedridden almost four years and needed the money.  Once I was healed enough, I took a contract job in Afghanistan doing ISR and in that time moved here to HI and haven't been able to afford nor really care for photography or super high end audio since.  Again, if I had the finances, I would certainly revisit this.

One thing you guys keep failing to realize is that not everyone is in YOUR position to afford all these high end pieces of HT equipment, so they need to find cheaper alternatives that perform as best as can possibly be found, and this LLDV trick along with the LK990 gives phenomenal performance for the outlay of cash involved compared to the solutions you guys are portending.  I know you're going to say "just use the HDF LLDV on a JVC RS1000", but based on what I saw and believe in my many years doing this, the combination of the LK990's advantages along with LLDV, especially native DV sources, provides the best bang for the buck OVERALL images I have ever seen, and it isn't even close!  I think you're all totally downplaying what the extra headroom luminance gives you with HDR/DV, along with the incredible sharpness and details and many other things the LK990 provides here.  It completely overrides the small disadvantages of what you can get for black levels, shadow details and contrast on this unit, in my humble opinion which I experience nearly every single day and have the professional experience to back up, no matter what you try to say or fool readers here into thinking is the case.

....And THEN what if I say its 90% the same, or inferior to DTM, we will go around in circles again... oh your projector is nits started etc etc...

I am already saying it may be only 90-95% or inferior to MadVR/RP/Envy DTM ON ANY OTHER PROJECTOR.  That was never the point, even though you all are making it out like it is. I already explained this many times, that it's about the LK990 using these techniques, not any other projector that may better utilize the SDR/BT2020 signal being tone mapped and sent from those devices.

I also explained the monetary reasons why, which to many people are HUGE!!!

I only say "nit starved" when I am talking about trying to do THE EXACT SAME THING as I do ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR which has the extra lumens to do what it is I am trying to do, like use a custom 10,000 nit DV Data Block for LLDV, allowing the main part of the image in the first 100 nits or so to have the least amount of tone mapping compression as possible while also giving the 100-175 nits extra headroom to be used for the specular and similar highlights used in HDR/DV.  Others have tried this on their JVCs and Sonys and have reported poor results, so this shows why I am saying that.  Their projectors top out at around 100 nits, so therefore don't have the headroom that the LK990 has, just as in brighter HDR/DV flat panels.

...But you got some of it confused...

No I didn't.  You just aren't understanding what I am saying, and have been saying.

....NO!

Here is another point of confusion,

MadVR IS the source. You think the projector is doing anything? The advantage of the/my/any JVC or Sony or whatever is its reliable and can be calibrated properly to a standard. I could also load an ST2084 EOTF onto the JVC and then tell MadVR to output HDR and that the display luminance is 100 nits, then it will tone map exactly as it should to the 10,000 nits ST2084 HDR EOTF, that's what it does when I click THIS:

BenQ LK990 First Impressions

........

I am not confused because I understand everything you just posted, now and before.  I wasn't saying MadVR was static.  I was referring to the SDR 2.4 gamma being used, and you sending the dynamic signal FROM MadVR into it, as a container, like you described in one of your replies to me.  I was saying what I am doing is similar in that instead of an SDR 2.4 gamma curve since you're sending SDR/BT2020, I send DV Dynamic Tone Mapping from my source (X800M2, ATV4K), the same as you do for MadVR, to my static ST2084 HDR curve, also a sort of container if you will, the same way you described your solution but with different sources and "containers".

No matter how you slice it, 1,000/4,000/10,000 nits tone mapped into 100 nits is more compression being used than the same 1,000/4,000/10,000 nits being tone mapped into 275 nits, DTM or not!  When you have any scenes whatsoever that have both low APL content and high specular highlight content concurrently, like many scenes in GoT in dark castles with bright sunlight coming through windows along with reflections off of brass and copper items, when you have only 100 nits to work with, more compression MUST be used as compared to a display with much higher lumen values (such as HDR/DV flat panels and the LK990), closer to the source mastering peak, available to you.

...But in the case of the LK, you are NOT actually doing that, you are choosing HDR brightness -2, you think that is a flat EOTF, you have just introduced your own manipulation? I dont think so, if you disagree, please measure the native EOTF for us and post it showing the scale and where it rolls off at HDR -2, it's easy to do!....

I don't disagree.  I never said it had NO manipulation or was totally flat.  I said it has the LEAST of any of the modes available for HDR Brightness (curve) ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR. I also said that the combination of what I am doing along with what this curve does ON THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR gives amazing results, for whatever reasons, but it does.  They just work very well together, that is all and that is fact.

...But my opinion is my own. Who are you to say I am wrong? I measured it, I observed it, dont tell me that I was not able to see the max contrast available from the machine, because it was not difficult to do....

I am not saying your initial opinion is wrong.  I am saying you can't compare that to what is happening NOW, when you haven't done it this way with LLDV and native DV sources.

...If you can measure over 5k:1 dynamic, I will give you a cookie!...

I already said measuring this is very hard to do with this projector.  you think it isn't because you just input a 0% black pattern, measure it and call it a day, but that is the wrong thing to do with THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR due to as I said, the Automatic Brightness Control feature, which is basically the same as ABL (Automatic Brightness Limiter) on flat panels. On those, many can defeat this "feature", but you can't on the LK990.  It is always on.  This is the basis for why I said to ask 12GAGE, tnaik4, etc. because they noticed it too and 12GAGE even did measurements to prove this and that in real video the projector goes LOWER than what it does when you input a 0% Black pattern.  Hence making any measurements of any real value incredibly hard, unlike how you describe it, which is based on false assumptions.  Just watch this video attached where Kevin Miller, Dr. Larry Walker, et al' talk about ABL in a similar fashion(not exactly the same) in the flat panel shootout from a few years ago.  It is just when DeWayne starts to speak around 4 minutes in:

...If you disagree, then measure something to show otherwise as I stated earlier, or accept that you and I have VERY different ideas on what good contrast is....

I explain this above and earlier, so I am not rehashing here again.

I know what good contrast is, I have an LG C65 OLED and play the same scenes on that and compare.

I never said they were the same as the JVCs or Sonys, let alone the OLED. What I have repeatedly said is that is is good enough and acceptable enough so that the very real advantages that I see and that the LK990 has outweighs the disadvantages I see with the LK990's total black levels and contrast, capisce?

....I would love to pick one, but it wouldnt be fair to anybody because this video is misleading, the projectors are both ~5k:1 machines, even with the DI you might get 20k I dont know Mike can chime in but the numbers on both machines are stratospherically low even compared to a Sony. If I said it looks like the top image then you would say but in most content the contrast in bright scenes was great (which I agree with) however that video was utter crap in bright scenes, and I could clearly make out his speakers. His room is NOT TREATED and his on screen ANSI would be no better than 80-100:1. I saw the LK ANSI at 450:1 IN my room.

That video is also highly brightness varied, remember in testing (some of the time) I also used an ND filter on the BenQ in my room, so I lowered the black floor as MUCH as I could to try and compare.

I already covered this before and what the purpose of me linking that video was, which you totally misunderstood and over analyzed.

[HarperVision]

Thats enough Dave let it go....

Again, easy to say from the person not at the pointy end of the spear!

....You are actually exhausting to even talk to.

Ditto, especially when the people you're trying to have an open minded, peer-to-peer, professional conversation with don't seem willing to do so in a cordial way.

I’m done if you are?

[Javs]

One thing Dave.

Tell me how you are putting the LK990 into SDR BT2020 mode.

The unit I had, unless there is new firmware does NOT accept BT2020 colour space flag with an SDR gamma selected. If you send the BT2020 flag it will kick the projector into the HDR mode and the gamma is unselectable. At the time you agreed this needed to be addressed and that it was the use case, so unless there was a new firmware update, how are you doing it, are you using the linker or something? I guess that makes sense if so.

Yes, I sent full HDR to the LK990 for tone mapping, I wrote that multiple times.

Yes, as I said it IS a difference.  When you did it, was your signal going into the LK990 SDR/BT2020 in the first instance?  Yes, it was, so therefore it wasn't using the HDR ST2084 mode of the LK990.

Secondly, after the first attempt using SDR/BT2020, as you state, you tried HDR10, correct?  Well, is HDR10 the same as LLDV Dolby Vision Profile 5, especially when the source is native Dolby Vision?  Let me answer that for you....the answer is NO!

So therefore it IS INDEED different!  So please, either try EXACTLY what I did, or hold your false assumptions until you do.

Yes, it was HDR Tone Mapping. See the screenshot I posted.

Yes I also tried its native HDR mode in isolation, but it sucked, the tone mapped MadVR was much better in HDR. But I preferred SDR BT709 ultimately because BT2020 was too innacurate and the EOTF wasnt flat and was fighting against the tone mapping so you just end up not accurate with the tone mapping. I prefer one thing doing all the tone mapping not two devices with their own interpretation of it.

[Javs]

This is where you're totally and unequivocally WRONG Javs!  LLDV is based on Dolby Vision's Profile 5 and is just as much "Dolby Vision" as their original profile when the source material is native Dolby Vision, like on the various Dolby Vision encoded UHD Blurays such as Black Panther, etc.  The ONLY difference is the Dolby Vision processing is done in the source instead of the DV capable display.  The source device, say a Sony X800M2 UHD Bluray player, is reading the EXACT SAME Dolby Vision layer off of the disc and using the EXACT SAME video and metadata as when it is connected to an original profile DV capable display, such as an LG OLED.  And now that we have the capability to customize the DV Data Block String so we can tell the source device EXACTLY what we have connected to it and its paramters like max luminance, min luminance, color gamut and its precise points, etc., EXACTLY like what something like an LG OLED does to get the EXACT SAME response form the source device as if it were hooked up to a native DV display with its EDID characteristics reported back to the source for customization with that EXACT display device!

Even when the source file is SDR HD or HDR10, when you use LLDV and have DV locked on in the source player like the Sony X800M2, it still uses the DV processing algorithms built into the Sony to convert the source file video to a best approximation of DV, and all the benefits thereof, such as improved shadow detail/steps of low level grey, better low level color rendition, better highlight detail and recovery, etc.  This is clearly easy to see just by comparing when those source video files are displayed in their native mode (SDR HD or HDR10).

Perhaps you have some reading and researching to do.

Yeah I agree that you are looking at the original DV on the discs that support it and did not say otherwise (I said good for you remember) but the ones that dont have native DV you are just using an algorithm, which is essentially a spoof, so you are just as much in love with a simple algorithm as you are the actual DV.

So, I am not wrong.

I never ONCE said that this is "native Dolby Vision" though, so not sure where you're getting that from?  (* I am not saying that MadVR, RP, Envy can't also do this or similar.  Now we are into the monetary side of the equation for which you decide to use)

Um not only did you say it once, you said it over half a dozen times, here:

  That, along with sending the full native Dolby Vision essentially is like using a whole new technology when compared to the "old way" of doing it with custom or straight 1,000 nit HDR curves or converting from HDR BT2020 to SDR BT2020, while only being able to feed it HDR10, not full native dolby vision.

Here:

LLDV?  Nope, I never said it was superior to any other DTM solution out there other than adding native Dolby Vision capabilities.

Here:

You can dig up all the quotes you want, but you are posting about the older LK970, which has neither HDR nor SmartEco Dynamic Laser Dimming support, not the LK990 which has both upgraded features and also which with I am discussing what it does and how it looks with Dolby Vision LLDV native and upconverted signals being displayed.

Here:

Oh, so you have actually used an HDFury Vertex2, DIVA or Maestro to fool the source into sending a native Dolby Vision signal being fed to that "low contrast" DLP (not an LK990 I am sure), with a custom DV Data Block set to a max luminance of 10,000 nits, .0005 min luminance, LLDV, BT2020 custom color gamut points, etc., so you know first hand how this looks then?

It goes on...

Also spoof, is the very definition of 'fool the source'.

I dont think a single person is arguing the point that any ACTUAL DV disc will not look great. The rest are just a form of DTM though, while you do say this sometimes, you are pretty lax with how specific you are being.

[Javs]

I am not confused because I understand everything you just posted, now and before.  I wasn't saying MadVR was static.  I was referring to the SDR 2.4 gamma being used, and you sending the dynamic signal FROM MadVR into it, as a container, like you described in one of your replies to me.

NO, I can send a FULL HDR signal. Tone-mapped as I want, however I want. There is NO SDR if I click that button.

The bandwidth is the same, I can send a 10,000 nit Tone Mapped signal or a signal optimised for my EXACT screen brightess (which DV doesnt even know!). 

There is only a value between 0.0 and 1.0.

Do you understand that you cannot have any information above 1.0 for pixel brightness?

Can we please agree on that, this is actually FUNDAMENTAL to our discussion. You seem to think an HDR signal is superior to an SDR one purely based on its name, that's no way correct at all when you have control over how the container is filled with information.

I can put it within an SDR Gamma container or I can wrap it with an HDR flag and send it that way, its of no consequence. What matters is the source AND the display talking exactly the same language which means the display promises its calibrated to say, SDR 2.4 Gamma in which the source tone mapping knows that its going to look exactly as intended by the algorithms, if I choose to set my display to clip to 10,000 nits, but the peak white in the real world is 100 nits, or 300 nits, you have to tell the source what that peak is, that way it outputs the correct levels. The tone mapping we use largely leaves totally untouched any pixel brightness under the display peak you enter, if you enter 100 nits, and the peak is 90 nits, it will not compress a single pixel, it will be exactly 1:1, thats how you get 3 nit scenes like the one on the train in Terminator Dark Fate to look ABSOLUTELY SOURCE PERFECT. DV in its native form usually will do this too. The OLD way would compress all pixels in the same fashion no matter what, you would either clip to get shadow detail or roll off shallow and lose shadow detail in order to keep the highlights.

Also, ANY TIME you touch a contrast control, or select a mode which brightens or darkens the image, or use ANY kind of algorithm OTHER than the full 10,000 nits uncompressed image on disc you are either adding compression, or expanding the signal, please make this distinction EVEN WITH DV.

The assertion the '100 nits tone mapped SDR' is inferior to DV is absolutely nonsense when the algorithms behind it are sound.