BenQ LK990 First Impressions

[HarperVision]

I read this whole thread and all I have to say is WOW.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but if you saw the LK990 set to HDR Brightness of -2, color at ~7 and Color Enhancement at ~16, paired with an HDFury Vertex2 doing the LLDV/Dolby Vision tweak with a DV String set to Max Luminance (nits) of 10,000 nits then you certainly would be saying "Wow"!  It would just be in the correct context instead of the sarcastic, false one you used initially.

[Dylan Seeger]

While I have no doubts getting Dolby Vision to the LK990 helps with image quality, you're still left with this projector's limited native contrast performance. Despite what a lot of people assume, HDR is not about high image brightness, but rather, as its name implies, high dynamic range. When you have a severely limited black floor and available contrast, you simply cannot render HDR convincingly. That's why the HDR alliance says a minimum of 20000:1 contrast is needed to get their seal of approval.

Case in point, I just picked up a used Digital Projection dVision 30 1080p XC projector. With both lamps on, it has about as much light as the LK990, but more native contrast. Despite this, the 4K Sony laser and 4K JVC lamp units I have here do a better job portraying HDR despite their lack of image brightness available. There's just more dynamic range available to do the content justice. I'm not saying having a lot light to work with isn't important, just that if you don't also have a lot of contrast to work with, the image will still be lacking.

[AVSCraig]

While I have no doubts getting Dolby Vision to the LK990 helps with image quality, you're still left with this projector's limited native contrast performance. Despite what a lot of people assume, HDR is not about high image brightness, but rather, as its name implies, high dynamic range. When you have a severely limited black floor and available contrast, you simply cannot render HDR convincingly. That's why the HDR alliance says a minimum of 20000:1 contrast is needed to get their seal of approval.

Case in point, I just picked up a used Digital Projection dVision 30 1080p XC projector. With both lamps on, it has about as much light as the LK990, but more native contrast. Despite this, the 4K Sony laser and 4K JVC lamp units I have here do a better job portraying HDR despite their lack of image brightness available. There's just more dynamic range available to do the content justice. I'm not saying having a lot light to work with isn't important, just that if you don't also have a lot of contrast to work with, the image will still be lacking.

I loved my Digital Projection dVision 1080p projector I had. Super sharp picture. But, it was always a balancing act closing down the iris for better contrast vs a brighter picture. 

[Dylan Seeger]

I loved my Digital Projection dVision 1080p projector I had. Super sharp picture. But, it was always a balancing act closing down the iris for better contrast vs a brighter picture.

These are selling so cheap used on eBay right now. My plan is to use one as a backyard projector for movie nights at our camp.

[AVSCraig]

These are selling so cheap used on eBay right now. My plan is to use one as a backyard projector for movie nights at our camp.

When I bought mine it was one of the very first 1080p projectors - totally state of the art ! And not cheap - $20K ! 

[HarperVision]

While I have no doubts getting Dolby Vision to the LK990 helps with image quality, you're still left with this projector's limited native contrast performance. Despite what a lot of people assume, HDR is not about high image brightness, but rather, as its name implies, high dynamic range. When you have a severely limited black floor and available contrast, you simply cannot render HDR convincingly. That's why the HDR alliance says a minimum of 20000:1 contrast is needed to get their seal of approval.

Case in point, I just picked up a used Digital Projection dVision 30 1080p XC projector. With both lamps on, it has about as much light as the LK990, but more native contrast. Despite this, the 4K Sony laser and 4K JVC lamp units I have here do a better job portraying HDR despite their lack of image brightness available. There's just more dynamic range available to do the content justice. I'm not saying having a lot light to work with isn't important, just that if you don't also have a lot of contrast to work with, the image will still be lacking.

Thanks for the info on contrast and how HDR is supposed to work and what it is.  I guess it'll help some newbies who don't understand these things.  Good thing I totally understand it all and can indeed get an absolutely incredible HDR/Dolby Vision image on screen with this combo.

If you say brightness doesn't matter, then you render the great flat panels that can do that utterly moot.  As anyone who actually knows what HDR is and does, the main and almost entirety of the movie is still within the 100 nit max range, or at least is supposed to be mastered that way, the same as its SDR counterpart.  The extra brightness is reserved for specular highlights, etc.  So by using a lower nit projector you're just forcing the display, source or tone mapping device/processor to compress that range available further down to whatever it has for its peak nits.  No compression is always better than any compression.  Tone Mapping is compression, but I am sure you already know that, so I guess that's for the newbies too.

With this higher brightness LK990, I still have the same original 100 nits brightness for the main part of the HDR video, but also the extra brightness over the lower nit projector is now there for what is easily seen as amazing specular highlights and incredible "HDR Effects", like you see on some of the best HDR/DV flat panels, which haven't been compressed by tone mapping as much or at all.

The laser levels in this projector are able to be lowered based on what is input, using the unit's Automatic Power Control and SmartEco features, similar to what is reported with the much more expensive JVC RS4500, and why many prefer its black levels and shadow details over the reportedly better RS3000 (@markmon for example).  When you input and present a 10,000 nit Dolby Vision custom string using the HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro with a BT2020 color gamut along with setting the LK990 to an HDR Brightness setting of -2, color at around 7, Brilliant Color ON and Color Enhancement to about 16.  This combo makes this happen along with great color tracking along the color gamut sweeps, unlike when you use default color at 50 and Color Enhancement OFF and Brilliant Color ON (as noted previously by me, you, @Javs, etc.)

Couple that with all the things that make the image much more detailed than even the mighty RS4500, as easily seen in the image attached, by @Woofer.

And no, I am not going to go around and around with you again here.  I have it here and have for a LONG time, doing extensive testing and configurations with many different sources and signals.  You haven't.  I know what it can and can't do, you don't.  And yes, I do agree the one area it can't compete totally is native on/off contrast and a little color saturation, and have always said that.  But I have also always said all the other attributes this presents are far superior, and I still completely stand by that.  I can all but guarantee anyone else who sees what I see here with Dolby Vision would feel the exact same way too.

Your stubbornness to not want to really dig deep and understand this projector and what it can do never ceases to amaze me.  I don't understand why.  Who does it hurt? You all just keep living in the SDR past, with old thoughts and paradigms that simply don't apply here.

Please all be safe and healthy in these trying times!

[Dylan Seeger]

Dave, I didn't say brightness doesn't matter, I said its almost pointless to have if you don't have high contrast to go with it, ie something these flat panels have over your washed out looking LK990. I'm not being dramatic saying this either. The people in the room who compared the RS2000 to the LK990 (both calibrated to industry standards and using madVR to tonemap) literally laughed out loud on several occasions on how horrendous the LK990 looked when the content got even a little dark. There's only been one or two other "home theater" projectors that I've seen worse off than the LK990 in this regard. Sure, the image is sharp and there's a lot of brightness to work with, but there's no way to get around this rather expensive projectors extremely limited contrast performance and this one aspect hinders overall performance severely.

It's also worth pointing out that the vast majority of picture information for HDR10 video content remains in the under 100 nit portion of the picture. That's why low nit level performance is so important. How can you have convincing HDR if you only have 1000:1 contrast? The average ADL of HDR content is actually darker than most SDR video content. Just let that fact sink in.

I only post this, not for some personal vendetta against you, but rather as a retort to your hyperbole ridden posts about the amazing performance you want people to believe this projector offers. Me and several others who have seen countless projectors over the years have seen this projector and simply do not agree with your overall assessment about how this projector performs. We've even tried your custom settings and that didn't help the situation. If I were to recommend this projector, it would only be if someone had a massive screen and needed the lumens this projector offers. In terms of raw image quality, there are so many other projectors out there currently who offer more.

[AVSCraig]

Dave, I didn't say brightness doesn't matter, I said its almost pointless to have if you don't have high contrast to go with it, ie something these flat panels have over your washed out looking LK990. I'm not being dramatic saying this either. The people in the room who compared the RS2000 to the LK990 (both calibrated to industry standards and using madVR to tonemap) literally laughed out loud on several occasions on how horrendous the LK990 looked when the content got even a little dark. There's only been one or two other "home theater" projectors that I've seen worse off than the LK990 in this regard. Sure, the image is sharp and there's a lot of brightness to work with, but there's no way to get around this rather expensive projectors extremely limited contrast performance and this one aspect hinders overall performance severely.

It's also worth pointing out that the vast majority of picture information for HDR10 video content remains in the under 100 nit portion of the picture. That's why low nit level performance is so important. How can you have convincing HDR if you only have 1000:1 contrast? The average ADL of HDR content is actually darker than most SDR video content. Just let that fact sink in.

I only post this, not for some personal vendetta against you, but rather as a retort to your hyperbole ridden posts about the amazing performance you want people to believe this projector offers. Me and several others who have seen countless projectors over the years have seen this projector and simply do not agree with your overall assessment about how this projector performs. We've even tried your custom settings and that didn't help the situation. If I were to recommend this projector, it would only be if someone had a massive screen and needed the lumens this projector offers. In terms of raw image quality, there are so many other projectors out there currently who offer more.

When Kris Deering calibrated my RS4500, he traded a lot of brightness for much better shadow detail and contrast. Combined with the Lumagen's DTM, the picture looks much better and at least one friend commented on how it looked better and didn't hurt their eyes now.  So while sufficient brightness is necessary, so is an adequate contrast level. I didn't really need the 47 foot lamberts I had for HDR. And it's never looked better.  

[HarperVision]

Dave, I didn't say brightness doesn't matter, I said its almost pointless to have if you don't have high contrast to go with it, ie something these flat panels have over your washed out looking LK990. I'm not being dramatic saying this either. The people in the room who compared the RS2000 to the LK990 (both calibrated to industry standards and using madVR to tonemap) literally laughed out loud on several occasions on how horrendous the LK990 looked when the content got even a little dark. There's only been one or two other "home theater" projectors that I've seen worse off than the LK990 in this regard. Sure, the image is sharp and there's a lot of brightness to work with, but there's no way to get around this rather expensive projectors extremely limited contrast performance and this one aspect hinders overall performance severely.

It's also worth pointing out that the vast majority of picture information for HDR10 video content remains in the under 100 nit portion of the picture. That's why low nit level performance is so important. How can you have convincing HDR if you only have 1000:1 contrast? The average ADL of HDR content is actually darker than most SDR video content. Just let that fact sink in.

I only post this, not for some personal vendetta against you, but rather as a retort to your hyperbole ridden posts about the amazing performance you want people to believe this projector offers. Me and several others who have seen countless projectors over the years have seen this projector and simply do not agree with your overall assessment about how this projector performs. We've even tried your custom settings and that didn't help the situation. If I were to recommend this projector, it would only be if someone had a massive screen and needed the lumens this projector offers. In terms of raw image quality, there are so many other projectors out there currently who offer more.

The only thing that was "laugh out loud" was your reply to me.

Is there a reason you seem to feel the need to try to lecture or educate me on this stuff, when I already know all this, and more?  Maybe if you wouldn't keep glossing over what I am actually writing and saying and stop being so condescending towards me and treating me like I am some sort of child or ignorant dolt in this subject matter, we could actually have a great conversation about these things.  Someone who truly cared would ask real in depth questions about this and what it is I am trying to achieve now, because this is almost completely different than the prior stuff I have written about (which you didn't understand then either).

Maybe go back and read my post again, since you seemed to ignore what it is I wrote.  So much so that you just repeated what I already said about how the majority of the HDR movie is still within the 100 nit range, reserving the rest for specular highlights.  You also must have missed where I said with the Dolby Vision String settings at 10,000 nits peak along with the HDR Brightness on the LK990 set at -2, it allows/forces the lasers to be able to dim to a much lower level due to its built in Automatic Power Control and SmartEco dynamic dimming systems (which seem to work in tandem), a la' the RS4500/Z1.  Low ADL scenes inside castles, caves, etc. in Game of Thrones look great, especially when you have the brightness to spare which gives these scenes that also have a window and sunlight shining in incredibly high dynamic range from super low level detail through high specular sunlight highlights!

Regarding your brightness comment, here is what you actually said:

"....Despite what a lot of people assume, HDR is not about high image brightness, but rather, as its name implies, high dynamic range....."

While I agree, you can't really have high dynamic range without one or both of the ends being higher and/or lower, in this case....brightness, along with maintaining some semblance of a good black floor, which this has with these settings and features engaged.  You may have a display/projector that can do awesome black which is great for the low end of the scale when figuring dynamic range, but you also need to at least have the higher end available too if you want TRUE "High Dynamic Range". All you have to do is think of the audio world to know that.  If your projector tops out at 100 nits or so, you don't have that, period.  Sure, your video image may use dynamic tone mapping (compression is all), but all it is doing is showing a 100 nit sliding range of what the frame is that's being displayed, so if it's a dark scene with a bright light in it as I mentioned earlier, your sunlight/specular highlight will never be even close to where it actually should be, since it will never get above 100 nits, if that, based on your compression (tone mapping) algorithm.  I am getting the full 100 nits image WITHOUT compression, and then using the nits above that (~175 nits range) for anything beyond the basic HDR movie image, i.e. - explosions, sunlight, flames, chrome flashes, lens flares, specular highlights, etc.  This is exactly why HDR/DV Flat Panels with higher brightness capability look so much better than projectors, even the worse black level ones like LCD, which everyone should agree.  This is what I was saying, which you failed to take into account.

This one is easy for you to try yourself if your friend still has his LK990 and you have a source for an HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro, AppleTV and/or UHD Bluray Player that can do Dolby Vision/LLDV such as the Sony X700 or X800M2, Oppo 203 or 205.

Remember, I said I am not comparing ONLY black levels and contrast here, because I agree the LK990 can't do what the JVCs can, and nor can just about any other projector for the home.  I never said that was the case anyway.  It just is NOT the "laugh out loud" funny you make it out to be, especially with this Dolby Vision setup.  What I find funny is that I can replicate exactly what it looks like with the hazy, milky blacks as you and everyone else did.  It's easy to do that when you don't really  know video characteristics in depth, this machine, what to do and how to do it.  Your first mistake is and always was, tone mapping HDR to SDR.  If you'd just maintain HDR ST2084 PQ and implement what I've said from there and properly set it up, then you can alleviate that issue.  Many others have as well.

What you and those "countless others" are failing to realize is that I too have seen, setup and calibrated numerous projectors myself, all the way back to the old CRT days starting with an old 480i Panasonic in 1996 with analog pots to do convergence, alignment and calibration up to and including the venerable Electrohome/Christie Marquee 9500LC, Barco 1208 and Sony G90.  When did you start in this business, Dylan?  Have you done those CRTs?  Now I have seen all the digital techs.  I also am in the Rental & Staging business, setting up small, medium and large venue projection systems for events of all sizes and quality levels, as well as doing my Home Theater business on the side.  I was also the lead trainer and Commandant of a school teaching TV and Radio and in the broadcast radio and TV business as a TV Transmitter Engineer for an NBC affiliate during the transition from NTSC to ATSC broadcasting, so yes I think I know a thing or two about video, haha!

[Dylan Seeger]

So let me get this straight. You're telling me that adhering to st2084 "alleviates the issue" with milky blacks? Dave, you do realize we tried this and like I said in my previous post, doing this, and using your settings, didn't fix this in the slightest. We did notice your settings crushed the bottom part of the image though. It seems your solution to this problem was to just make the whole image darker overall. But that doesn't fix the poor contrast performance.

Getting a good image from any display shouldn't require the user to jump through hoops or happen to stumble upon a post by you telling them exactly how to set it up. By the way, dynamic tonemapping to SDR looked much better than your settings.

I can't do anymore tests with the LK990 as the owner returned it to BenQ a few days after we conducted our comparison. He ended up buying an RS2000.

[HarperVision]

So let me get this straight. You're telling me that adhering to st2084 "alleviates the issue" with milky blacks? Dave, you do realize we tried this and like I said in my previous post, doing this, and using your settings, didn't fix this in the slightest. We did notice your settings crushed the bottom part of the image though. It seems your solution to this problem was to just make the whole image darker overall. But that doesn't fix the poor contrast performance....

You do realize this is a completely different animal than my prior settings, don't you?  You should since I mentioned it numerous times already.

Yes, I am telling you that on THIS projector, using ST2084, along with the settings for Dolby Vision I now mentioned at least twice to you, is what helps alleviate this issue.  It appears to allow/force the laser dimming modes (SmartEco and Automatic Power Control) to go lower in steps towards total laser cutoff.  This same phenomena happens with the RS4500/Z1, as reported by @woofer and @Markmon and others, so I am not sure why you question it here?  Yes, this is a dynamic contrast solution not a sequential or on/off one, but it is increased contrast nonetheless.  In the end the eye doesn't much care which it is.  It cares what it actually sees, and with this and the RS4500/Z1 and VW885/995ES (per Archibald), it is increased contrast.

As I have now mentioned more than once this is NOT the same thing as I had done previously, although it is based on many of the same concepts.  This Dolby Vision LLDV version is much improved.  In fact just last night I compared a standard HDR10 version to a Dolby Vision/LLDV version and in back and forth evaluation you could easily see the improved contrast and low level details, as well as how it handled the higher end visuals, such as scenes I mentioned before with very dark low level detail in the shadows and high peak sunlight rays coming through windows simultaneously.  This is the very essence of what HDR is supposed to be.  I also played the same scenes on the HT9060 LED based DLP by BenQ that I had here, marketed as their top Home Theater model, and the image is worse, more like what you've reported with much hazier, milkier blacks, etc.  So this shows it is exclusive to this  model and most likely others that use dimming systems with laser phosphor engines, such as the RS4500 and VW885ES as reported by @Archibald when using this LLDV solution.

.....Getting a good image from any display shouldn't require the user to jump through hoops or happen to stumble upon a post by you telling them exactly how to set it up. By the way, dynamic tonemapping to SDR looked much better than your settings....

You don't have to jump through any more hoops than you would using custom curves, a Lumagen Radiance Pro or especially something like MadVR!  It is super simple really.  Even easier than those solutions.  All you need, as I have also mentioned more times than one, is an HDFury device, at minimum a Vertex or Integral2, but preferably a Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro, an LLDV capable source such as the Oppo 203/205, Sony X700/X800M2, AppleTV 4K to do all conversions.  If you only want DV, then an nVidia Shield, Panasonic UB820/9000 or Pioneer LX500 will do.

You don't have to "stumble upon a post by me telling them exactly how to set it up".  There are already two very large threads regarding this LLDV mod, on AVSF and AV Forums.  The procedures to accomplish this is no different than when making custom curves was a thing as a way to make your HDR image quality better, and that was easily discovered and used by anyone who wanted to do it.

I am sure HDR->SDR tone mapping using expensive, state-of-the-art processing such as MadVR/Envy or Radiance Pro produce incredible results, as I have seen when I had a Radiance Pro, but at what cost?  This solution is literally thousands of dollars less and can produce similar if not superior results, especially with native Dolby Vision sources, by the way which those solutions simply CANNOT do!  Just ask @Claw and @Dominic Chan, who use this solution for all DV sources when available and then use MadVR or Radiance for native HDR10 and SDR upconversion.  Sure, even if MadVR is ever so slightly better at HDR10 (non-DV) and SDR conversion, I ask again....at what cost?  Some simply can't afford it and/or don't want the hassle of configuring MadVR and maintaining a PC for their HT.  In my personal testing of a Panasonic UB820, Oppo 203 and Radiance Pro's HDR->SDR conversion, the LLDV solution easily came out on top.  It wasn't even close really, at least on this LK990.

...I can't do anymore tests with the LK990 as the owner returned it to BenQ a few days after we conducted our comparison. He ended up buying an RS2000.

Excellent choice, but unfortunate if he liked all the other attributes the LK990 brought to the table, as you can clearly see in the image I attached a few posts up, because the low level details and black levels are much improved compared to the hamstrung image you apparently showed him.

I will leave you with these statements from SMPTE conferences (of which I have hosted many, along with IEEE ones) and Stacey Spears which sum the LK990 experience up nicely:

Stacey Spears recently on AVSF:
"...There is no perfect display on the market today. You have to pick the display who's issues bother you the least..."

SMPTE: (See attached pictures from...)


*BTW, Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) is where the Professor of Optics, Visual Science and Material Science, also a former Director of the Institute of Optics was from that was consulted regarding the conversation you and I went round and round on concerning minimum lens quality needed for e-shift vs 4K, on which he agreed with my assessment on the subject, and who's thoughts on the matter you disregarded.

And a couple other good ones:



https://youtu.be/X0Kldl5_cuY

[Dylan Seeger]

I was expecting the "those were my old settings" argument. The problem is, you were making the same proclamations about amazing performance when those settings were posted. Why is everything so hyperbolic with you? The reason why some of us give you such a hard time is because of how dramatic you sound when talking about these projectors and the kind of performance you want others to think they have. If you were just a bit more realistic about things, I don't think you'd be getting so much flak.

How much contrast are you getting with the dynamic contrast system in play? Can you please measure for me with a single white pixel on screen? That would give us a better idea of what you're seeing. I'm guessing 3,000:1-4,000:1 dynamic at the max with a single white pixel on screen. The single white pixel test would show us the most help the system gives with real world content. The BenQ HT5550 I just got done reviewing has roughly the same native and probably similar dynamic contrast with actual content. It still can't hold a candle to some of the other projectors, including older DLP projectors, that have come through here. I have a Runco VX-11D that would probably benefit greatly with something like your DV hack, but it looks amazing when using madVR to tonemap and downscale to 1080p. I'm getting a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446+ to review and I'd like to see what that can do with the Runco as well. I'm sure it will breath new life into an older, but still amazing, 3 chip DLP projector not meant to display HDR. I also still have a VPL-VW995ES here and Sony UHD Blu-ray player. What settings should I use to see the benefits you're talking about?

[HarperVision]

I was expecting the "those were my old settings" argument. The problem is, you were making the same proclamations about amazing performance when those settings were posted. Why is everything so hyperbolic with you? The reason why some of us give you such a hard time is because of how dramatic you sound when talking about these projectors and the kind of performance you want others to think they have. If you were just a bit more realistic about things, I don't think you'd be getting so much flak.....

And I was expecting you to say that back.  This is no different than how anyone talks with each upgrade occurrence, no?  Just look at our own fine wine connoisseur Craig Peer, who exclaims every upgrade, calibration, gear addition as the greatest he's seen, but as with him and everyone else, it's with the caveat of the additional unsaid words, such as...."so far", "to date", "up until now", etc.  Which is not negating the fact that future advances will certainly make it even better, so the same words and expressions can be used over and over again.  I remember thinking when I used progressive scan DVD over 480i DVD thinking it was the greatest, when that was the pinnacle and state of the art at the time. People also said the same thing when they used custom curves for HDR, now look at how they view that compared to DTM and Dolby Vision.  It is all relative after all, no?

I am sorry if you and others don't like my passion for this.  Just because I am, doesn't mean it isn't valid.  Are you going to tell me sports superstars who are extremely passionate about their profession, like Ray Lewis, Brian Dawkins, Pete Rose, Charles Barkley, etc. aren't great athletes and knowledgeable in their fields, just because they exude that passion any time they do the work they simply love? Maybe it is you and others who are so hell bent on only the numbers and come across as dull and unable to break old paradigms who are not helping the cause here?  It is usually the knowledgeable AND passionate ones that end up moving things forward in the end.

Seriously though, I don't like being patronized and made out to be some amatuer videot, when you haven't even seen this or done this yet.  And before you say it again, I don't even believe you did with my old settings either, because you got your LK990 before I had mine or at least finalized any end result settings.  I believe you used the settings for the LK970, not LK990, and it is extremely clear now that those settings definitely DID NOT cross over, just like they didn't from the Epson LS10000 (non-HDR capable) to the LS10500 (HDR Capable)!

.....How much contrast are you getting with the dynamic contrast system in play? Can you please measure for me with a single white pixel on screen? That would give us a better idea of what you're seeing. I'm guessing 3,000:1-4,000:1 dynamic at the max with a single white pixel on screen. The single white pixel test would show us the most help the system gives with real world content. The BenQ HT5550 I just got done reviewing has roughly the same native and probably similar dynamic contrast with actual content. It still can't hold a candle to some of the other projectors, including older DLP projectors, that have come through here. I have a Runco VX-11D that would probably benefit greatly with something like your DV hack, but it looks amazing when using madVR to tonemap and downscale to 1080p. I'm getting a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446+ to review and I'd like to see what that can do with the Runco as well. I'm sure it will breath new life into an older, but still amazing, 3 chip DLP projector not meant to display HDR. I also still have a VPL-VW995ES here and Sony UHD Blu-ray player. What settings should I use to see the benefits you're talking about?

When I measured previously, I do believe I got about 4500:1 dynamically, but it has also already been established by the likes of myself, @12GAGE, @TNAIK4, etc. that in real world video, the laser black levels go lower than what is shown on screen when inputting a black signal.  12GAGE I believe measured this, iirc.  There was a lot of talk about this I believe in the LK970 thread on AVSF.  It appears to be related to the LKs Automatic Power Control feature, which is also a dimming system, appearing similar to flat panel features like ABL, dynamic contrast/back light, etc.  12GAGE used a power meter and saw fluctuations that would point to this, like I think with active video (very low APL) he got lower readings than with a black image pattern, or some such.  I would have to ask him again or research it again to get the entire gist of what he did to help explain the visible phenomenon. 

I just literally received a new i1Pro2 spectro, which I know isn't the best for low level stuff, but it's all the funds I have right now with this pandemic and my health issues.  I hope to get a new i1 Display Pro colorimeter when I can as well.  My main issue has been trying to find a good test pattern generator source since I had to return the Six-G generator that was loaned to me and I can of course no longer use the ones I borrowed and used at work when doing my Rental & Staging gigs since that's all shut down.  I tried using MobileForge through an HDFury, but got strange results that I can't trust.  Is there a specific pattern on Spears & Munsil UHD disc or R. Masciola's UHD or DV patterns you'd like me to try this on manually?  These seem to be my only stable HDR/DV source patterns for now, at least until I can return to the mainland  and get new gear to start my side gig calibrating again.

I already told you that I had an HT9060 here and it reacted very similar to what you describe and how I believe the HT5550 does as well.  It had far worse black levels and contrast issues which resulted in the hazy, milky blacks you're trying to impart on the LK990.  I played the exact same scenes from various sources on both and could see the differences clearly.  As I have said numerous times, it is something to do with the laser phosphor system allowing it to dim further and more dynamically/faster or something.  The effect seems to be spoken of with other laser models as well, such as the RS4500/Z1 (@Woofer, @Markmon, etc.) and even on the Optoma UHZ65 (@Aztar).

As for the VW995ES, I believe you just setup the normal things to get the LLDV mod working and with a Sony UHD Bluray you just force the DV option in the menus.  Do you have a later model HDFury device?  @Archibald seems to like the 10,000 nit option and then lowering the Contrast (HDR) and brightness setting appropriately to avoid any white clipping and black crush, if any.  I think he mentioned starting with something equivalent to a 4,000 nit curve in the pj, and going from there.  I would certainly ask him, since he seems to be the expert with the LLDV mod on the Sonys.

You do still seem not to be taking into account the final things I posted in my last post here, about how one measurement can't tell you the whole story and that in the end, on top of all the science, there also needs to be some artistic intent and what the overall image looks like.  I have far too many times gotten the numbers almost perfect and "just right" in my calibration and testing, only to see a less than optimal image on screen.  WRGB OLEDs come to mind due to their white pixels being mixed in with the RGB, where you have to lower Y luminance so much to get full 3D color luminance measured properly.  Javs saw this and complained that he had to turn off Brilliant Color, which I disagree with when done properly in the end.  These projectors were engineered from the ground up, taking this into account, as the Delta/Vivitek and Optoma engineers told me.  This is the same with the WRGB OLEDs.  The LK990 with it's RGBY (Y being derived from the phosphor wheel, excited by the blue lasers) imparts similar issues, as you, me, Kris and Javs have all noted when measuring the LKs.

[AVSMike]

Dave, I don't know that I would use Aztar35 for support on DLP contrast. Aztar35 got rid of the 9060 and had this to say about it on 5/15/2020.

"The 9060 doesn't have an iris you can clamp down. Outstanding lens with a nice and steady, even image from its LED light source, great colors, but its 3D and its motion speed left me wanting. Another member here did say his use of a lens significantly improved its 3D performance, however.

Its contrast with more and more content I tried did prove difficult for my own tastes later on."


Post #43 in the "Question About Contrast Ratio" thread on AVSF. And Markmon already has said repeatedly the contrast difference between the 4500 and the LK970 with your settings was laughable in dark scenes like space shots. If you don't believe me, I can dig up quotes. Everybody that has viewed an LK side by side with an RS2000 has come to the same conclusion. You argue against that conclusion and yet you have not compared the two side by side, much less side by side in a good blacked out room.

I wish these DLP's did provide that performance, I could have saved a lot of money buying one over my RS3000. 

[HarperVision]

Dave, I don't know that I would use Aztar35 for support on DLP contrast. Aztar35 got rid of the 9060 and had this to say about it on 5/15/2020.

"The 9060 doesn't have an iris you can clamp down. Outstanding lens with a nice and steady, even image from its LED light source, great colors, but its 3D and its motion speed left me wanting. Another member here did say his use of a lens significantly improved its 3D performance, however.

Its contrast with more and more content I tried did prove difficult for my own tastes later on.".......

@Aztar35 used and said those words when comparing and using a BenQ HT9060 which is LED based, NOT an LK990 (or even a 970 for that matter!) which use laser phosphor with two modes of dynamic dimming, Automatic Power Control and SmartEco, to full blackout.  These are two very completely different animals, as I have said countless times here even recently.

Your post just goes to show you guys actually don't take the time to read what I write, as I have said numerous times.  Thanks for proving my points.  It also shows that all you guys ever do is copy and paste the same old dull and boring answers based on old stereotype SDR DLP performace, without ever actually keeping updated or trying any new things, for years apparently. 

Let me reiterate for those that didn't bother to read these posts I made, and not at all that long ago either!........

...but if you saw the LK990 set to HDR Brightness of -2, color at ~7 and Color Enhancement at ~16, paired with an HDFury Vertex2 doing the LLDV/Dolby Vision tweak with a DV String set to Max Luminance (nits) of 10,000 nits then you certainly would be saying "Wow"!  ...

The laser levels in this projector are able to be lowered based on what is input, using the unit's Automatic Power Control and SmartEco features, similar to what is reported with the much more expensive JVC RS4500, and why many prefer its black levels and shadow details over the reportedly better RS3000 (@markmon for example).  When you input and present a 10,000 nit Dolby Vision custom string using the HDFury Vertex2/DIVA/Maestro with a BT2020 color gamut along with setting the LK990 to an HDR Brightness setting of -2, color at around 7, Brilliant Color ON and Color Enhancement to about 16.  This combo makes this happen along with great color tracking along the color gamut sweeps, unlike when you use default color at 50 and Color Enhancement OFF and Brilliant Color ON (as noted previously by me, you, @Javs, etc.)......

.....And yes, I do agree the one area it can't compete totally is native on/off contrast and a little color saturation, and have always said that.  But I have also always said all the other attributes this presents are far superior, and I still completely stand by that.  I can all but guarantee anyone else who sees what I see here with Dolby Vision would feel the exact same way too.

Your stubbornness to not want to really dig deep and understand this projector and what it can do never ceases to amaze me.  I don't understand why.  Who does it hurt? You all just keep living in the SDR past, with old thoughts and paradigms that simply don't apply here......

.....You also must have missed where I said with the Dolby Vision String settings at 10,000 nits peak along with the HDR Brightness on the LK990 set at -2, it allows/forces the lasers to be able to dim to a much lower level due to its built in Automatic Power Control and SmartEco dynamic dimming systems (which seem to work in tandem), a la' the RS4500/Z1.  Low ADL scenes inside castles, caves, etc. in Game of Thrones look great, especially when you have the brightness to spare which gives these scenes that also have a window and sunlight shining in incredibly high dynamic range from super low level detail through high specular sunlight highlights!......

.....Remember, I said I am not comparing ONLY black levels and contrast here, because I agree the LK990 can't do what the JVCs can, and nor can just about any other projector for the home.  I never said that was the case anyway.  It just is NOT the "laugh out loud" funny you make it out to be, especially with this Dolby Vision setup.  What I find funny is that I can replicate exactly what it looks like with the hazy, milky blacks as you and everyone else did.  It's easy to do that when you don't really  know video characteristics in depth, this machine, what to do and how to do it.  Your first mistake is and always was, tone mapping HDR to SDR.  If you'd just maintain HDR ST2084 PQ and implement what I've said from there and properly set it up, then you can alleviate that issue.  Many others have as well.....

You do realize this is a completely different animal than my prior settings, don't you?  You should since I mentioned it numerous times already.

Yes, I am telling you that on THIS projector, using ST2084, along with the settings for Dolby Vision I now mentioned at least twice to you, is what helps alleviate this issue.  It appears to allow/force the laser dimming modes (SmartEco and Automatic Power Control) to go lower in steps towards total laser cutoff.  This same phenomena happens with the RS4500/Z1, as reported by @woofer and @Markmon and others, so I am not sure why you question it here?  Yes, this is a dynamic contrast solution not a sequential or on/off one, but it is increased contrast nonetheless.  In the end the eye doesn't much care which it is.  It cares what it actually sees, and with this and the RS4500/Z1 and VW885/995ES (per Archibald), it is increased contrast.

As I have now mentioned more than once this is NOT the same thing as I had done previously, although it is based on many of the same concepts.  This Dolby Vision LLDV version is much improved.  In fact just last night I compared a standard HDR10 version to a Dolby Vision/LLDV version and in back and forth evaluation you could easily see the improved contrast and low level details, as well as how it handled the higher end visuals, such as scenes I mentioned before with very dark low level detail in the shadows and high peak sunlight rays coming through windows simultaneously.  This is the very essence of what HDR is supposed to be.  I also played the same scenes on the HT9060 LED based DLP by BenQ that I had here, marketed as their top Home Theater model, and the image is worse, more like what you've reported with much hazier, milkier blacks, etc.  So this shows it is exclusive to this  model and most likely others that use dimming systems with laser phosphor engines, such as the RS4500 and VW885ES as reported by @Archibald when using this LLDV solution.....

......Excellent choice, but unfortunate if he liked all the other attributes the LK990 brought to the table, as you can clearly see in the image I attached a few posts up, because the low level details and black levels are much improved compared to the hamstrung image you apparently showed him.

I will leave you with these statements from SMPTE conferences (of which I have hosted many, along with IEEE ones) and Stacey Spears which sum the LK990 experience up nicely:

Stacey Spears recently on AVSF:
"...There is no perfect display on the market today. You have to pick the display who's issues bother you the least..."

SMPTE: (See attached pictures from...)


And a couple other good ones:



https://youtu.be/X0Kldl5_cuY

....Seriously though, I don't like being patronized and made out to be some amatuer videot, when you haven't even seen this or done this yet.  And before you say it again, I don't even believe you did with my old settings either, because you got your LK990 before I had mine or at least finalized any end result settings.  I believe you used the settings for the LK970, not LK990, and it is extremely clear now that those settings definitely DID NOT cross over, just like they didn't from the Epson LS10000 (non-HDR capable) to the LS10500 (HDR Capable)!

When I measured previously, I do believe I got about 4500:1 dynamically, but it has also already been established by the likes of myself, @12GAGE, @TNAIK4, etc. that in real world video, the laser black levels go lower than what is shown on screen when inputting a black signal.  12GAGE I believe measured this, iirc.  There was a lot of talk about this I believe in the LK970 thread on AVSF.  It appears to be related to the LKs Automatic Power Control feature, which is also a dimming system, appearing similar to flat panel features like ABL, dynamic contrast/back light, etc.  12GAGE used a power meter and saw fluctuations that would point to this, like I think with active video (very low APL) he got lower readings than with a black image pattern, or some such.  I would have to ask him again or research it again to get the entire gist of what he did to help explain the visible phenomenon. 

I already told you that I had an HT9060 here and it reacted very similar to what you describe and how I believe the HT5550 does as well.  It had far worse black levels and contrast issues which resulted in the hazy, milky blacks you're trying to impart on the LK990.  I played the exact same scenes from various sources on both and could see the differences clearly.  As I have said numerous times, it is something to do with the laser phosphor system allowing it to dim further and more dynamically/faster or something.  The effect seems to be spoken of with other laser models as well, such as the RS4500/Z1 (@Woofer, @Markmon, etc.) and even on the Optoma UHZ65 (@Aztar)......

......As for the VW995ES, I believe you just setup the normal things to get the LLDV mod working and with a Sony UHD Bluray you just force the DV option in the menus.  Do you have a later model HDFury device?  @Archibald seems to like the 10,000 nit option and then lowering the Contrast (HDR) and brightness setting appropriately to avoid any white clipping and black crush, if any.  I think he mentioned starting with something equivalent to a 4,000 nit curve in the pj, and going from there.  I would certainly ask him, since he seems to be the expert with the LLDV mod on the Sonys.

You do still seem not to be taking into account the final things I posted in my last post here, about how one measurement can't tell you the whole story and that in the end, on top of all the science, there also needs to be some artistic intent and what the overall image looks like.  I have far too many times gotten the numbers almost perfect and "just right" in my calibration and testing, only to see a less than optimal image on screen.  WRGB OLEDs come to mind due to their white pixels being mixed in with the RGB, where you have to lower Y luminance so much to get full 3D color luminance measured properly.  Javs saw this and complained that he had to turn off Brilliant Color, which I disagree with when done properly in the end.  These projectors were engineered from the ground up, taking this into account, as the Delta/Vivitek and Optoma engineers told me.  This is the same with the WRGB OLEDs.  The LK990 with it's RGBY (Y being derived from the phosphor wheel, excited by the blue lasers) imparts similar issues, as you, me, Kris and Javs have all noted when measuring the LKs.

Does that all ring a bell now, where I clearly stated what is happening with the lasers and how much it is different than lamp or LED based DLPs, such as the BenQ HT9060 (which I said I had here concurrently with the LK990), HT5550, W5700, Optoma UHD60/65, etc.?  And also how much different it is now when using the new LLDV Dolby Vision mod that I discovered and created?

......Post #43 in the "Question About Contrast Ratio" thread on AVSF. And Markmon already has said repeatedly the contrast difference between the 4500 and the LK970 with your settings was laughable in dark scenes like space shots. If you don't believe me, I can dig up quotes. Everybody that has viewed an LK side by side with an RS2000 has come to the same conclusion. You argue against that conclusion and yet you have not compared the two side by side, much less side by side in a good blacked out room.

I wish these DLP's did provide that performance, I could have saved a lot of money buying one over my RS3000.

You can dig up all the quotes you want, but you are posting about the older LK970, which has neither HDR nor SmartEco Dynamic Laser Dimming support, not the LK990 which has both upgraded features and also which with I am discussing what it does and how it looks with Dolby Vision LLDV native and upconverted signals being displayed. So what you are posting is totally moot.  How exactly do you know what room I have BTW?  While it isn't a total bat cave, I do have black curtains I pull around the sides and front and it gets virtually pitch black when watching if I want, especially at night.

I will also reiterate these posts again for you............

.....And yes, I do agree the one area it can't compete totally is native on/off contrast and a little color saturation, and have always said that.  But I have also always said all the other attributes this presents are far superior, and I still completely stand by that.  I can all but guarantee anyone else who sees what I see here with Dolby Vision would feel the exact same way too....

.....Remember, I said I am not comparing ONLY black levels and contrast here, because I agree the LK990 can't do what the JVCs can, and nor can just about any other projector for the home.  I never said that was the case anyway.  It just is NOT the "laugh out loud" funny you make it out to be, especially with this Dolby Vision setup.  What I find funny is that I can replicate exactly what it looks like with the hazy, milky blacks as you and everyone else did.  It's easy to do that when you don't really  know video characteristics in depth, this machine, what to do and how to do it....

As I have now mentioned more than once this is NOT the same thing as I had done previously, although it is based on many of the same concepts.  This Dolby Vision LLDV version is much improved.  In fact just last night I compared a standard HDR10 version to a Dolby Vision/LLDV version and in back and forth evaluation you could easily see the improved contrast and low level details,...

......Excellent choice, but unfortunate if he liked all the other attributes the LK990 brought to the table, as you can clearly see in the image I attached a few posts up, because the low level details and black levels are much improved compared to the hamstrung image you apparently showed him.

Stacey Spears recently on AVSF:
"...There is no perfect display on the market today. You have to pick the display who's issues bother you the least..."

You do still seem not to be taking into account the final things I posted in my last post here, about how one measurement can't tell you the whole story and that in the end, on top of all the science, there also needs to be some artistic intent and what the overall image looks like.

See attached....again.