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Build Your Own HTPC

Build Your Own HTPC
« on: March 11, 2019, 02:02:22 PM »

I am considering building an HTPC with these parts:

  • Grandia Series SST-GD09B, No PSU, ATX, Black, HTPC Case
  • TUF B360M-E GAMING, Intel B360 Chipset, LGA 1151, HDMI, microATX Motherboard
  • Core™ i5-8400 6-Core 2.8 - 4.0GHz Turbo, LGA 1151, 65W TDP, Retail Processor
  • GeForce RTX™ 2070 XC BLACK EDITION GAMING, 1410 - 1620MHz, 8GB GDDR6, Graphics Card
  • Overclocking, Single GPU, Optimal and Stable Performance
  • 850 G3, 80 PLUS Gold 850W, ECO Mode, Fully Modular, ATX Power Supply
  • 16GB HyperX Fury DDR4 2400MHz, CL15, Black, DIMM Memory
  • 250GB MX500 2280, 560 / 510 MB/s, 3D NAND, SATA 6Gb/s, M.2 SSD
  • 2TB BarraCuda ST2000DM006, 7200 RPM, SATA 6Gb/s NCQ, 64MB cache, 3.5-Inch HDD
  • BDR-211UBK, BD 16x / DVD 16x / CD 40x, Ultra HD Blu-ray Burner, 5.25-Inch, Optical Drive
  • Windows 10 Home 64-bit DVD OEM
  • AntiVirus 2018 - 1 PC / 1 Year
  • MK320, Wireless 2.4GHz USB, Black, Keyboard & Mouse

Any suggestions?

I plan to use the HTPC for MadVr (ripping UHD BDs, dynamic tone mapping, and 3DLut).
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 02:04:46 PM by gonzalc3 »
JVC RS2000K, 144” Stewart Studiotek 130 Cinemascope screen, Anthem AVM 60, Oppo 203 UHD Blu ray player, Panasonic UB820, B&W 803 D2s, B&W HTM D2, B&W 805s, B&W CCM ceiling speakers.

Manni

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2019, 02:15:34 PM »
Hi there :)

A 2070 is okay but you will have to make some compromises especially with HDR tonemapping.

I would recommend pushing to a 2080 if you can, especially if you have any interest in 60p content.

I’m not sure the UHD bluray you have selected is one of the few “friendly” models supported. You only have a few UHD Blurays drives (and only up to a certain version of f/w) that will allow you to rip your own disks, so you might want to look into this.

An i5 with 16gb of RAM is fine if you only want to use madVR.

Make sure you budget a NAS with enough hard drives to rip your collection. Each mkv backup file (or bd folder if you want to use jRiver and its UHD Bluray menus) is 50-100gb, so it goes fast...

Good luck!

Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2019, 03:51:07 PM »
I have an RTX 2070 and can use pretty much max settings within madVR and still have render times around 35ms with UHD BD content. I don't think a 2080 is required.
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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2019, 04:25:40 PM »
I have an RTX 2070 and can use pretty much max settings within madVR and still have render times around 35ms with UHD BD content. I don't think a 2080 is required.
Do you use 12bits or do you dither to 8bits? Do you play 60p content? Do you use a 3D LUT for calibration? Do you use copyback to get UHD Bluray menus and black bars detection, or are you happy with native, which provides better performance at the expense of some software features?

I didn't say it was required, only that currently you have to make some compromises re features and performance with anything below a 1080ti / 2080 if you want the best of upscaling/processing/tonemapping and features offered by madVR.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 04:30:38 PM by Manni »

Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2019, 04:32:24 PM »
12 bit, i have black bar detection on, no 3D Lut, no copyback as I use software decoding but I'm using NGU for both chroma and general upscaling. SSIM is used for downscaling.
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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2019, 05:44:33 PM »
12 bit, i have black bar detection on, no 3D Lut, no copyback as I use software decoding but I'm using NGU for both chroma and general upscaling. SSIM is used for downscaling.
You are using copyback, as that is software decoding, you wouldn't get black bars detection otherwise :)
Depending on the level of NGU upscaling (well, chroma only for UHD content) and if you are not using a 3D LUT for calibration, then sure you can get by with a 2070. I don't think you'll be able to use NGU High and error diffusion 1 or 2 though, you probably have to reduce the NGU quality to medium, which I agree isn't a big compromise.

By the way you know that there is a bug in the new JVCs and that RGB Full 12bits is converted internally to YCC422, even for 30p and below, which messes levels and possibly hurts chroma upscaling, as some dithering and chroma downscaling is happening behind madVR's back? I reported it to them, so hopefully they will solve it in a future f/w update.

In the meantime, I recommend using 8bits, especially if you use the 3D LUT feature, otherwise you have to force BT2020 to get the most linear gamut when calibrating. That should give you a bit of headroom, and won't cause any banding with the right settings.

You need to use Bicubic150 downscaling with the latest test builds for HDR tonemapping if you're using the live algo, as that's what's needed for the best dynamic targets. These latest builds need a lot more power than those even just a few weeks ago, so you're either behind or are not using the right dowscaling algos.

If you're not using the live algo because you run measurements files, then you are also saving some precious ms of rendering, but not everyone is happy to go through the hassle of measuring files before playing a film...

MadvR is moving very fast at the moment, and the latest test builds give a good idea of the power requirements for the next public build. This is why I am advising, if the OP can stretch his budget, to get a 2080. I'm not suggesting you're slumming it, with a 2070, just that you have to make some compromises (like not using the 3D LUT capability of madVR, which for some is a big compromise without reducing quality) and have little headroom as madVR keeps growing.

I have a 1080ti (the equivalent of a 2080) and in about a year I went from having all settings where I wanted them to having to make some (small) compromises, especially in 12bits.

And I'm not even talking about 60p content, which is out of the question at the same quality settings. I need a special profile to reduce quality significantly when playing 60p, or it's a slideshow. :)

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2019, 06:22:06 PM »

I am considering building an HTPC with these parts:


  • Grandia Series SST-GD09B, No PSU, ATX, Black, HTPC Case
  • TUF B360M-E GAMING, Intel B360 Chipset, LGA 1151, HDMI, microATX Motherboard
  • Core™ i5-8400 6-Core 2.8 - 4.0GHz Turbo, LGA 1151, 65W TDP, Retail Processor
  • GeForce RTX™ 2070 XC BLACK EDITION GAMING, 1410 - 1620MHz, 8GB GDDR6, Graphics Card
  • Overclocking, Single GPU, Optimal and Stable Performance
  • 850 G3, 80 PLUS Gold 850W, ECO Mode, Fully Modular, ATX Power Supply
  • 16GB HyperX Fury DDR4 2400MHz, CL15, Black, DIMM Memory
  • 250GB MX500 2280, 560 / 510 MB/s, 3D NAND, SATA 6Gb/s, M.2 SSD
  • 2TB BarraCuda ST2000DM006, 7200 RPM, SATA 6Gb/s NCQ, 64MB cache, 3.5-Inch HDD
  • BDR-211UBK, BD 16x / DVD 16x / CD 40x, Ultra HD Blu-ray Burner, 5.25-Inch, Optical Drive
  • Windows 10 Home 64-bit DVD OEM
  • AntiVirus 2018 - 1 PC / 1 Year
  • MK320, Wireless 2.4GHz USB, Black, Keyboard & Mouse

Any suggestions?

I plan to use the HTPC for MadVr (ripping UHD BDs, dynamic tone mapping, and 3DLut).

I believe the Pioneer BDR-211UBK has official UHD Support which means it can (supposedly) be used with PowerDVD, Windows 10, and appropriate Intel CPU to play encrypted UHD discs.

But Official support means that it is not a UHD Friendly drive.  Friendly drives are required in order to make unencrypted backups.

Better to choose a well known friendly drive such as the ASUS BW-16D1HT.  You would still need to downgrade the firmware to a version that supports ripping.  That loophole was closed a year ago with a firmware update.  The procedures are documented and easy to perform.  I downgraded two of these.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 06:42:18 PM by cjake »
JVC RS500/LG OLED/Denon X6400H 7.2.4/Panasonic UB820/Oppo 203/AppleTV 4K/FireStick 4K/HDfury Diva/MadVR RTX2080Ti

claw

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2019, 06:48:10 PM »
A 2070 is okay but you will have to make some compromises especially with HDR tonemapping.

I would recommend pushing to a 2080 if you can, especially if you have any interest in 60p content.

Then I wish Onkyoman would have updated his Build thread.  I just purchased a 2060.

Budget: GTX 1050 3GB
Minimum: GTX 1050 Ti
Recommended: GTX 1660 6GB / RTX 2060
Performance: RTX 2080
HDR Tone Mapping: GTX 1660 Ti / RTX 2060
JVC RS500/LG OLED/Denon X6400H 7.2.4/Panasonic UB820/Oppo 203/AppleTV 4K/FireStick 4K/HDfury Diva/MadVR RTX2080Ti

Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2019, 08:28:26 PM »
You are using copyback, as that is software decoding, you wouldn't get black bars detection otherwise :)
Depending on the level of NGU upscaling (well, chroma only for UHD content) and if you are not using a 3D LUT for calibration, then sure you can get by with a 2070. I don't think you'll be able to use NGU High and error diffusion 1 or 2 though, you probably have to reduce the NGU quality to medium, which I agree isn't a big compromise.

By the way you know that there is a bug in the new JVCs and that RGB Full 12bits is converted internally to YCC422, even for 30p and below, which messes levels and possibly hurts chroma upscaling, as some dithering and chroma downscaling is happening behind madVR's back? I reported it to them, so hopefully they will solve it in a future f/w update.

In the meantime, I recommend using 8bits, especially if you use the 3D LUT feature, otherwise you have to force BT2020 to get the most linear gamut when calibrating. That should give you a bit of headroom, and won't cause any banding with the right settings.

You need to use Bicubic150 downscaling with the latest test builds for HDR tonemapping if you're using the live algo, as that's what's needed for the best dynamic targets. These latest builds need a lot more power than those even just a few weeks ago, so you're either behind or are not using the right dowscaling algos.

If you're not using the live algo because you run measurements files, then you are also saving some precious ms of rendering, but not everyone is happy to go through the hassle of measuring files before playing a film...

MadvR is moving very fast at the moment, and the latest test builds give a good idea of the power requirements for the next public build. This is why I am advising, if the OP can stretch his budget, to get a 2080. I'm not suggesting you're slumming it, with a 2070, just that you have to make some compromises (like not using the 3D LUT capability of madVR, which for some is a big compromise without reducing quality) and have little headroom as madVR keeps growing.

I have a 1080ti (the equivalent of a 2080) and in about a year I went from having all settings where I wanted them to having to make some (small) compromises, especially in 12bits.

And I'm not even talking about 60p content, which is out of the question at the same quality settings. I need a special profile to reduce quality significantly when playing 60p, or it's a slideshow. :)
From the reviews I've read the closest 2xxx GPU in performance compared to the 1080ti from nvidia is the card I have, not the 2080. The 2080 is faster than the 1080ti. Copyback is a DXVA hardware decoding method. I'm not using it. I'm using 'avcodec' inside LAV Filters which is a software (CPU) decoder. See here:

https://i.imgur.com/dJqcpQH.png
Build Your Own HTPC


Copyback option I'm not using:

https://i.imgur.com/u0hkpgs.png
Build Your Own HTPC


Black bar option enabled in madVR;

https://i.imgur.com/RGvcJen.png
Build Your Own HTPC



Black bars are detected just fine and the image zooms/scales appropriately on my 21:9 monitor. Trust me, I use this feature every day.


Yes, I'm aware of the 12 bit bug. I'm just too lazy to go into nvidia control panel and change the setting to 8 bit. If a fix doesn't come soon, I will make the change. I'm fairly sure that madVR overrides my SSIM downscaling setting when using the dynamic HDR tonemapping algorithm or at least I think I saw that the last time I checked the OSD.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 09:08:00 PM by Dylan Seeger »
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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2019, 08:54:42 PM »
To your point about not being able to use NGU High with Error Diffusion 1 or 2 (also notice black bars were detected and the video was zoomed appropriately on my 21:9 monitor):

https://i.imgur.com/mekcKN1.jpg
Build Your Own HTPC


https://i.imgur.com/gyFjINT.jpg[img]<br /><br />[img width=500 height=209]https://i.imgur.com/iDbBRA2.jpg
Build Your Own HTPC


https://i.imgur.com/iDbBRA2.jpg
Build Your Own HTPC


Render time is under 41.71ms (and still is on when playing back on the RS2000). If I need a little more wiggle room, I can always overclock my GPU as my RTX2070 is running at stock speeds. As I recall, even madshi himself said more than NGU medium is pretty much superfluous unless you're really pixel peeping so if I have issues with render times I will lower some settings as I doubt I'd a difference from my seat anyways.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 09:13:18 PM by Dylan Seeger »
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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2019, 01:52:05 AM »
If you are using software decoding, why are we even talking about the GPU you use, or why are you considering overclocking it, given that you are using a CPU based acceleration? This is a highly unusual configuration, which is why I assumed you were using copyback, my bad. I'm sure you have a valid reason to not use the GPU acceleration. Did you look at GPU-Z or the GPU performance tab in the task manager? What is the GPU and video engine load?

Your rendering times are gone from 35ms to 41ms with these settings, which is not usable. Your present and rendering queues are empty, you are clearly dropping frames with these settings. 35ms would be a safer threshhold with widescreen content, which is what you are showing. You would be dropping frames like mad with 16/9 or 1.78 content, as that requires more power and you're already more than borderline with widescreen content, without a 3D LUT.

If you do have a 2070, I highly recommend you try using D3D11 copyback (if you want the software functions to work, such as black bars detection and UHD Bluray menus) or D3D11 native for even better performance if needed. Both are using hardware acceleration, but some software functions are disabled with native, which is why copyback can be needed. At least that way you will be using the GPU hardware acceleration and should have more headroom. But you might have your own reasons for not using your GPU hardware acceleration of course.

I did say that NGU chroma medium was fine and not a big compromise, so I'm not saying anything different from Madshi. You will have to use it though, because NGU high for chroma is more than you can chew with your current settings in UHD. The difference it makes depends on content, screeen size and eyes. I don't consider it a significant factor, especially with UHD content as the chroma layer is already full HD, but I prefer to use high if I can. I would never use very high for chroma as it's a waste of power that's better used elsewhere.

Anyway, you say a 2070 is enough but you are not using its hardware acceleration and your screenshots show unusable render times and empty queues even with 2.40 content, which requires the least power. You're also conceding, without a 3D LUT enabled, that you would need to overclock it to get more headroom, so I'm confused. Are you still not agreeing that it's not powerful enough to use all the features at the best (not crazy) quality settings, which was my point to start with?

I say a 2070 is ok but if the OP has the budget and wants to use all the features (he did mention his intention to use a 3D LUT, which isn't enabled in your already too high settings for that GPU), in the best quality that madVR has to offer, he might want to consider stretching to a 2080, which in the reviews I've read was fairly close to my 1080ti and wouldn't be an upgrade to me, at least until tensor cores are put to use in madVR. The only upgrade I would consider would be a 2080ti, but as it doesn't have HDMI 2.1 and I can still get by with my 1080ti, I passed this gen.

Maybe we could agree to leave it there without spending days debating it? :)

I think we are taking the thread on a tangent, discussing the specifics of your settings rather than providing useful advice to the OP.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 02:14:56 AM by Manni »

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2019, 02:30:38 AM »
Then I wish Onkyoman would have updated his Build thread.  I just purchased a 2060.

Budget: GTX 1050 3GB
Minimum: GTX 1050 Ti
Recommended: GTX 1660 6GB / RTX 2060
Performance: RTX 2080
HDR Tone Mapping: GTX 1660 Ti / RTX 2060

Hi Claw,

He might not use some features, or it might be based on older builds (performance requirements have gone up over the last few weeks). I agree with the performance recommendation: RTX 2080. Maybe he meant a 2060 minimum for tonemapping and nothing else, to override his other minimum? Not sure what his last line means. Please don't mention me if you question this in his thread, the last thing I want is a debate with Onkyoman :)


Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2019, 07:55:49 AM »
If you are using software decoding, why are we even talking about the GPU you use, or why are you considering overclocking it, given that you are using a CPU based acceleration? This is a highly unusual configuration, which is why I assumed you were using copyback, my bad. I'm sure you have a valid reason to not use the GPU acceleration. Did you look at GPU-Z or the GPU performance tab in the task manager? What is the GPU and video engine load?

Your rendering times are gone from 35ms to 41ms with these settings, which is not usable. Your present and rendering queues are empty, you are clearly dropping frames with these settings. 35ms would be a safer threshhold with widescreen content, which is what you are showing. You would be dropping frames like mad with 16/9 or 1.78 content, as that requires more power and you're already more than borderline with widescreen content, without a 3D LUT.

If you do have a 2070, I highly recommend you try using D3D11 copyback (if you want the software functions to work, such as black bars detection and UHD Bluray menus) or D3D11 native for even better performance if needed. Both are using hardware acceleration, but some software functions are disabled with native, which is why copyback can be needed. At least that way you will be using the GPU hardware acceleration and should have more headroom. But you might have your own reasons for not using your GPU hardware acceleration of course.

I did say that NGU chroma medium was fine and not a big compromise, so I'm not saying anything different from Madshi. You will have to use it though, because NGU high for chroma is more than you can chew with your current settings in UHD. The difference it makes depends on content, screeen size and eyes. I don't consider it a significant factor, especially with UHD content as the chroma layer is already full HD, but I prefer to use high if I can. I would never use very high for chroma as it's a waste of power that's better used elsewhere.

Anyway, you say a 2070 is enough but you are not using its hardware acceleration and your screenshots show unusable render times and empty queues even with 2.40 content, which requires the least power. You're also conceding, without a 3D LUT enabled, that you would need to overclock it to get more headroom, so I'm confused. Are you still not agreeing that it's not powerful enough to use all the features at the best (not crazy) quality settings, which was my point to start with?

I say a 2070 is ok but if the OP has the budget and wants to use all the features (he did mention his intention to use a 3D LUT, which isn't enabled in your already too high settings for that GPU), in the best quality that madVR has to offer, he might want to consider stretching to a 2080, which in the reviews I've read was fairly close to my 1080ti and wouldn't be an upgrade to me, at least until tensor cores are put to use in madVR. The only upgrade I would consider would be a 2080ti, but as it doesn't have HDMI 2.1 and I can still get by with my 1080ti, I passed this gen.

Maybe we could agree to leave it there without spending days debating it? :)

I think we are taking the thread on a tangent, discussing the specifics of your settings rather than providing useful advice to the OP.

I don't mean to debate, but I think it's important to make a few things clear. I think you're misunderstanding how I have things set up and how the chain of video playback works. madVR ONLY works via a GPU. There is no "software" CPU use with it, only hardware use via dedicated GPU (or I guess technically it could work with the built in iGPU on the CPU).

With that said, I'm using my CPU to decode the video, not render it. Huge difference. And, again, I'm not using DXVA copy-back to do that. Yes, black bar detection still works as is clearly evident from the screenshots in my last post. Sorry, I've been using madVR literally since it's inception (almost a decade) and MPC-HC for even longer. I know how all of this software works inside and out. I don't use copy-back because that puts an even greater stress on the GPU.

Also, NONE of my screenshots show a render time over 41.71ms so I'm not sure what you're referring to. The dropped frames shown in madVR are due to me going in and out of fullscreen when taking these screenshots. Most of the time render time is around 35ms, well under the 41.71ms limit before frames start to drop. If you don't want to debate, please stop talking to me as if this is the first time I've used this software. No, I don't keep up to date with all the latest beta information on the quirks and oddities of the tone mapping software (like needing Bicubic 150 downscaling for best results) but I know how all of this works and what, in general, is appropriate to use in the software. And it seems from your posts that you also don't quite have it all down either.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 08:08:34 AM by Dylan Seeger »
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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2019, 08:08:29 AM »
Of course black bars detection will work, you are using software decoding and are not using the GPU hardware acceleration that would be used with D3D11 copyback or native. If you were, the black bars detection would only work with copyback, not with native.

I'm not saying you're inexperienced, you are just making claims about a GPU that go against my own experience (I haven't exactly just discovered madVR either), and directly contradict a statement I've made, without providing anything that backs up your claims, that's all. On the contrary. And now you're suggesting that I don't know what I'm talking about...

Anyway, you're happy with your settings, I'm happy that you're happy with your settings, so for the sake of the thread, I'll yield :)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 08:28:13 AM by Manni »

Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2019, 09:34:48 AM »
Of course black bars detection will work, you are using software decoding and are not using the GPU hardware acceleration that would be used with D3D11 copyback or native. If you were, the black bars detection would only work with copyback, not with native.

I'm not saying you're inexperienced, you are just making claims about a GPU that go against my own experience (I haven't exactly just discovered madVR either), and directly contradict a statement I've made, without providing anything that backs up your claims, that's all. On the contrary. And now you're suggesting that I don't know what I'm talking about...

Anyway, you're happy with your settings, I'm happy that you're happy with your settings, so for the sake of the thread, I'll yield :)
Are you referring to the screenshots I provided that DO provide contradictory evidence? Without the menu up, I'm seeing 35ms render time with NGU on high, black bar detection enabled and Error Diffusion 1 enabled with my RTX 2070. I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, but yes, I would say you don't know everything. I had to explain three times that I'm using software decoding and you insisted that I was using copyback twice. That was wrong as was my RTX 2070 not being fast enough for the settings you said it couldn't do. It's mostly the attitude you have when posting. It's a patronizing attitude as if you're talking down to people as if they have no idea what they're doing. But maybe I'm reading your posts wrong. 
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