AVS Discussions

Video Source Devices => HTPC => Topic started by: gonzalc3 on March 11, 2019, 02:02:22 PM

Title: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: gonzalc3 on March 11, 2019, 02:02:22 PM

I am considering building an HTPC with these parts:


Any suggestions?

I plan to use the HTPC for MadVr (ripping UHD BDs, dynamic tone mapping, and 3DLut).
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Manni on March 11, 2019, 02:15:34 PM
Hi there :)

A 2070 is okay but you will have to make some compromises especially with HDR tonemapping.

I would recommend pushing to a 2080 if you can, especially if you have any interest in 60p content.

I’m not sure the UHD bluray you have selected is one of the few “friendly” models supported. You only have a few UHD Blurays drives (and only up to a certain version of f/w) that will allow you to rip your own disks, so you might want to look into this.

An i5 with 16gb of RAM is fine if you only want to use madVR.

Make sure you budget a NAS with enough hard drives to rip your collection. Each mkv backup file (or bd folder if you want to use jRiver and its UHD Bluray menus) is 50-100gb, so it goes fast...

Good luck!
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Dylan Seeger on March 11, 2019, 03:51:07 PM
I have an RTX 2070 and can use pretty much max settings within madVR and still have render times around 35ms with UHD BD content. I don't think a 2080 is required.
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Manni on March 11, 2019, 04:25:40 PM
I have an RTX 2070 and can use pretty much max settings within madVR and still have render times around 35ms with UHD BD content. I don't think a 2080 is required.
Do you use 12bits or do you dither to 8bits? Do you play 60p content? Do you use a 3D LUT for calibration? Do you use copyback to get UHD Bluray menus and black bars detection, or are you happy with native, which provides better performance at the expense of some software features?

I didn't say it was required, only that currently you have to make some compromises re features and performance with anything below a 1080ti / 2080 if you want the best of upscaling/processing/tonemapping and features offered by madVR.
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Dylan Seeger on March 11, 2019, 04:32:24 PM
12 bit, i have black bar detection on, no 3D Lut, no copyback as I use software decoding but I'm using NGU for both chroma and general upscaling. SSIM is used for downscaling.
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Manni on March 11, 2019, 05:44:33 PM
12 bit, i have black bar detection on, no 3D Lut, no copyback as I use software decoding but I'm using NGU for both chroma and general upscaling. SSIM is used for downscaling.
You are using copyback, as that is software decoding, you wouldn't get black bars detection otherwise :)
Depending on the level of NGU upscaling (well, chroma only for UHD content) and if you are not using a 3D LUT for calibration, then sure you can get by with a 2070. I don't think you'll be able to use NGU High and error diffusion 1 or 2 though, you probably have to reduce the NGU quality to medium, which I agree isn't a big compromise.

By the way you know that there is a bug in the new JVCs and that RGB Full 12bits is converted internally to YCC422, even for 30p and below, which messes levels and possibly hurts chroma upscaling, as some dithering and chroma downscaling is happening behind madVR's back? I reported it to them, so hopefully they will solve it in a future f/w update.

In the meantime, I recommend using 8bits, especially if you use the 3D LUT feature, otherwise you have to force BT2020 to get the most linear gamut when calibrating. That should give you a bit of headroom, and won't cause any banding with the right settings.

You need to use Bicubic150 downscaling with the latest test builds for HDR tonemapping if you're using the live algo, as that's what's needed for the best dynamic targets. These latest builds need a lot more power than those even just a few weeks ago, so you're either behind or are not using the right dowscaling algos.

If you're not using the live algo because you run measurements files, then you are also saving some precious ms of rendering, but not everyone is happy to go through the hassle of measuring files before playing a film...

MadvR is moving very fast at the moment, and the latest test builds give a good idea of the power requirements for the next public build. This is why I am advising, if the OP can stretch his budget, to get a 2080. I'm not suggesting you're slumming it, with a 2070, just that you have to make some compromises (like not using the 3D LUT capability of madVR, which for some is a big compromise without reducing quality) and have little headroom as madVR keeps growing.

I have a 1080ti (the equivalent of a 2080) and in about a year I went from having all settings where I wanted them to having to make some (small) compromises, especially in 12bits.

And I'm not even talking about 60p content, which is out of the question at the same quality settings. I need a special profile to reduce quality significantly when playing 60p, or it's a slideshow. :)
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: claw on March 11, 2019, 06:22:06 PM

I am considering building an HTPC with these parts:


  • Grandia Series SST-GD09B, No PSU, ATX, Black, HTPC Case
  • TUF B360M-E GAMING, Intel B360 Chipset, LGA 1151, HDMI, microATX Motherboard
  • Core™ i5-8400 6-Core 2.8 - 4.0GHz Turbo, LGA 1151, 65W TDP, Retail Processor
  • GeForce RTX™ 2070 XC BLACK EDITION GAMING, 1410 - 1620MHz, 8GB GDDR6, Graphics Card
  • Overclocking, Single GPU, Optimal and Stable Performance
  • 850 G3, 80 PLUS Gold 850W, ECO Mode, Fully Modular, ATX Power Supply
  • 16GB HyperX Fury DDR4 2400MHz, CL15, Black, DIMM Memory
  • 250GB MX500 2280, 560 / 510 MB/s, 3D NAND, SATA 6Gb/s, M.2 SSD
  • 2TB BarraCuda ST2000DM006, 7200 RPM, SATA 6Gb/s NCQ, 64MB cache, 3.5-Inch HDD
  • BDR-211UBK, BD 16x / DVD 16x / CD 40x, Ultra HD Blu-ray Burner, 5.25-Inch, Optical Drive
  • Windows 10 Home 64-bit DVD OEM
  • AntiVirus 2018 - 1 PC / 1 Year
  • MK320, Wireless 2.4GHz USB, Black, Keyboard & Mouse

Any suggestions?

I plan to use the HTPC for MadVr (ripping UHD BDs, dynamic tone mapping, and 3DLut).

I believe the Pioneer BDR-211UBK has official UHD Support which means it can (supposedly) be used with PowerDVD, Windows 10, and appropriate Intel CPU to play encrypted UHD discs.

But Official support means that it is not a UHD Friendly drive.  Friendly drives are required in order to make unencrypted backups.

Better to choose a well known friendly drive such as the ASUS BW-16D1HT.  You would still need to downgrade the firmware to a version that supports ripping.  That loophole was closed a year ago with a firmware update.  The procedures are documented and easy to perform.  I downgraded two of these.
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: claw on March 11, 2019, 06:48:10 PM
A 2070 is okay but you will have to make some compromises especially with HDR tonemapping.

I would recommend pushing to a 2080 if you can, especially if you have any interest in 60p content.

Then I wish Onkyoman would have updated his Build thread.  I just purchased a 2060.

Budget: GTX 1050 3GB
Minimum: GTX 1050 Ti
Recommended: GTX 1660 6GB / RTX 2060
Performance: RTX 2080
HDR Tone Mapping: GTX 1660 Ti / RTX 2060
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Dylan Seeger on March 11, 2019, 08:28:26 PM
You are using copyback, as that is software decoding, you wouldn't get black bars detection otherwise :)
Depending on the level of NGU upscaling (well, chroma only for UHD content) and if you are not using a 3D LUT for calibration, then sure you can get by with a 2070. I don't think you'll be able to use NGU High and error diffusion 1 or 2 though, you probably have to reduce the NGU quality to medium, which I agree isn't a big compromise.

By the way you know that there is a bug in the new JVCs and that RGB Full 12bits is converted internally to YCC422, even for 30p and below, which messes levels and possibly hurts chroma upscaling, as some dithering and chroma downscaling is happening behind madVR's back? I reported it to them, so hopefully they will solve it in a future f/w update.

In the meantime, I recommend using 8bits, especially if you use the 3D LUT feature, otherwise you have to force BT2020 to get the most linear gamut when calibrating. That should give you a bit of headroom, and won't cause any banding with the right settings.

You need to use Bicubic150 downscaling with the latest test builds for HDR tonemapping if you're using the live algo, as that's what's needed for the best dynamic targets. These latest builds need a lot more power than those even just a few weeks ago, so you're either behind or are not using the right dowscaling algos.

If you're not using the live algo because you run measurements files, then you are also saving some precious ms of rendering, but not everyone is happy to go through the hassle of measuring files before playing a film...

MadvR is moving very fast at the moment, and the latest test builds give a good idea of the power requirements for the next public build. This is why I am advising, if the OP can stretch his budget, to get a 2080. I'm not suggesting you're slumming it, with a 2070, just that you have to make some compromises (like not using the 3D LUT capability of madVR, which for some is a big compromise without reducing quality) and have little headroom as madVR keeps growing.

I have a 1080ti (the equivalent of a 2080) and in about a year I went from having all settings where I wanted them to having to make some (small) compromises, especially in 12bits.

And I'm not even talking about 60p content, which is out of the question at the same quality settings. I need a special profile to reduce quality significantly when playing 60p, or it's a slideshow. :)
From the reviews I've read the closest 2xxx GPU in performance compared to the 1080ti from nvidia is the card I have, not the 2080. The 2080 is faster than the 1080ti. Copyback is a DXVA hardware decoding method. I'm not using it. I'm using 'avcodec' inside LAV Filters which is a software (CPU) decoder. See here:

(https://i.imgur.com/dJqcpQH.png)

Copyback option I'm not using:

(https://i.imgur.com/u0hkpgs.png)

Black bar option enabled in madVR;

(https://i.imgur.com/RGvcJen.png)


Black bars are detected just fine and the image zooms/scales appropriately on my 21:9 monitor. Trust me, I use this feature every day.


Yes, I'm aware of the 12 bit bug. I'm just too lazy to go into nvidia control panel and change the setting to 8 bit. If a fix doesn't come soon, I will make the change. I'm fairly sure that madVR overrides my SSIM downscaling setting when using the dynamic HDR tonemapping algorithm or at least I think I saw that the last time I checked the OSD.
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Dylan Seeger on March 11, 2019, 08:54:42 PM
To your point about not being able to use NGU High with Error Diffusion 1 or 2 (also notice black bars were detected and the video was zoomed appropriately on my 21:9 monitor):

(https://i.imgur.com/mekcKN1.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/gyFjINT.jpg[img]<br /><br />[img width=500 height=209]https://i.imgur.com/iDbBRA2.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/iDbBRA2.jpg)

Render time is under 41.71ms (and still is on when playing back on the RS2000). If I need a little more wiggle room, I can always overclock my GPU as my RTX2070 is running at stock speeds. As I recall, even madshi himself said more than NGU medium is pretty much superfluous unless you're really pixel peeping so if I have issues with render times I will lower some settings as I doubt I'd a difference from my seat anyways.
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Manni on March 12, 2019, 01:52:05 AM
If you are using software decoding, why are we even talking about the GPU you use, or why are you considering overclocking it, given that you are using a CPU based acceleration? This is a highly unusual configuration, which is why I assumed you were using copyback, my bad. I'm sure you have a valid reason to not use the GPU acceleration. Did you look at GPU-Z or the GPU performance tab in the task manager? What is the GPU and video engine load?

Your rendering times are gone from 35ms to 41ms with these settings, which is not usable. Your present and rendering queues are empty, you are clearly dropping frames with these settings. 35ms would be a safer threshhold with widescreen content, which is what you are showing. You would be dropping frames like mad with 16/9 or 1.78 content, as that requires more power and you're already more than borderline with widescreen content, without a 3D LUT.

If you do have a 2070, I highly recommend you try using D3D11 copyback (if you want the software functions to work, such as black bars detection and UHD Bluray menus) or D3D11 native for even better performance if needed. Both are using hardware acceleration, but some software functions are disabled with native, which is why copyback can be needed. At least that way you will be using the GPU hardware acceleration and should have more headroom. But you might have your own reasons for not using your GPU hardware acceleration of course.

I did say that NGU chroma medium was fine and not a big compromise, so I'm not saying anything different from Madshi. You will have to use it though, because NGU high for chroma is more than you can chew with your current settings in UHD. The difference it makes depends on content, screeen size and eyes. I don't consider it a significant factor, especially with UHD content as the chroma layer is already full HD, but I prefer to use high if I can. I would never use very high for chroma as it's a waste of power that's better used elsewhere.

Anyway, you say a 2070 is enough but you are not using its hardware acceleration and your screenshots show unusable render times and empty queues even with 2.40 content, which requires the least power. You're also conceding, without a 3D LUT enabled, that you would need to overclock it to get more headroom, so I'm confused. Are you still not agreeing that it's not powerful enough to use all the features at the best (not crazy) quality settings, which was my point to start with?

I say a 2070 is ok but if the OP has the budget and wants to use all the features (he did mention his intention to use a 3D LUT, which isn't enabled in your already too high settings for that GPU), in the best quality that madVR has to offer, he might want to consider stretching to a 2080, which in the reviews I've read was fairly close to my 1080ti and wouldn't be an upgrade to me, at least until tensor cores are put to use in madVR. The only upgrade I would consider would be a 2080ti, but as it doesn't have HDMI 2.1 and I can still get by with my 1080ti, I passed this gen.

Maybe we could agree to leave it there without spending days debating it? :)

I think we are taking the thread on a tangent, discussing the specifics of your settings rather than providing useful advice to the OP.
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Manni on March 12, 2019, 02:30:38 AM
Then I wish Onkyoman would have updated his Build thread.  I just purchased a 2060.

Budget: GTX 1050 3GB
Minimum: GTX 1050 Ti
Recommended: GTX 1660 6GB / RTX 2060
Performance: RTX 2080
HDR Tone Mapping: GTX 1660 Ti / RTX 2060

Hi Claw,

He might not use some features, or it might be based on older builds (performance requirements have gone up over the last few weeks). I agree with the performance recommendation: RTX 2080. Maybe he meant a 2060 minimum for tonemapping and nothing else, to override his other minimum? Not sure what his last line means. Please don't mention me if you question this in his thread, the last thing I want is a debate with Onkyoman :)

Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Dylan Seeger on March 12, 2019, 07:55:49 AM
If you are using software decoding, why are we even talking about the GPU you use, or why are you considering overclocking it, given that you are using a CPU based acceleration? This is a highly unusual configuration, which is why I assumed you were using copyback, my bad. I'm sure you have a valid reason to not use the GPU acceleration. Did you look at GPU-Z or the GPU performance tab in the task manager? What is the GPU and video engine load?

Your rendering times are gone from 35ms to 41ms with these settings, which is not usable. Your present and rendering queues are empty, you are clearly dropping frames with these settings. 35ms would be a safer threshhold with widescreen content, which is what you are showing. You would be dropping frames like mad with 16/9 or 1.78 content, as that requires more power and you're already more than borderline with widescreen content, without a 3D LUT.

If you do have a 2070, I highly recommend you try using D3D11 copyback (if you want the software functions to work, such as black bars detection and UHD Bluray menus) or D3D11 native for even better performance if needed. Both are using hardware acceleration, but some software functions are disabled with native, which is why copyback can be needed. At least that way you will be using the GPU hardware acceleration and should have more headroom. But you might have your own reasons for not using your GPU hardware acceleration of course.

I did say that NGU chroma medium was fine and not a big compromise, so I'm not saying anything different from Madshi. You will have to use it though, because NGU high for chroma is more than you can chew with your current settings in UHD. The difference it makes depends on content, screeen size and eyes. I don't consider it a significant factor, especially with UHD content as the chroma layer is already full HD, but I prefer to use high if I can. I would never use very high for chroma as it's a waste of power that's better used elsewhere.

Anyway, you say a 2070 is enough but you are not using its hardware acceleration and your screenshots show unusable render times and empty queues even with 2.40 content, which requires the least power. You're also conceding, without a 3D LUT enabled, that you would need to overclock it to get more headroom, so I'm confused. Are you still not agreeing that it's not powerful enough to use all the features at the best (not crazy) quality settings, which was my point to start with?

I say a 2070 is ok but if the OP has the budget and wants to use all the features (he did mention his intention to use a 3D LUT, which isn't enabled in your already too high settings for that GPU), in the best quality that madVR has to offer, he might want to consider stretching to a 2080, which in the reviews I've read was fairly close to my 1080ti and wouldn't be an upgrade to me, at least until tensor cores are put to use in madVR. The only upgrade I would consider would be a 2080ti, but as it doesn't have HDMI 2.1 and I can still get by with my 1080ti, I passed this gen.

Maybe we could agree to leave it there without spending days debating it? :)

I think we are taking the thread on a tangent, discussing the specifics of your settings rather than providing useful advice to the OP.

I don't mean to debate, but I think it's important to make a few things clear. I think you're misunderstanding how I have things set up and how the chain of video playback works. madVR ONLY works via a GPU. There is no "software" CPU use with it, only hardware use via dedicated GPU (or I guess technically it could work with the built in iGPU on the CPU).

With that said, I'm using my CPU to decode the video, not render it. Huge difference. And, again, I'm not using DXVA copy-back to do that. Yes, black bar detection still works as is clearly evident from the screenshots in my last post. Sorry, I've been using madVR literally since it's inception (almost a decade) and MPC-HC for even longer. I know how all of this software works inside and out. I don't use copy-back because that puts an even greater stress on the GPU.

Also, NONE of my screenshots show a render time over 41.71ms so I'm not sure what you're referring to. The dropped frames shown in madVR are due to me going in and out of fullscreen when taking these screenshots. Most of the time render time is around 35ms, well under the 41.71ms limit before frames start to drop. If you don't want to debate, please stop talking to me as if this is the first time I've used this software. No, I don't keep up to date with all the latest beta information on the quirks and oddities of the tone mapping software (like needing Bicubic 150 downscaling for best results) but I know how all of this works and what, in general, is appropriate to use in the software. And it seems from your posts that you also don't quite have it all down either.
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Manni on March 12, 2019, 08:08:29 AM
Of course black bars detection will work, you are using software decoding and are not using the GPU hardware acceleration that would be used with D3D11 copyback or native. If you were, the black bars detection would only work with copyback, not with native.

I'm not saying you're inexperienced, you are just making claims about a GPU that go against my own experience (I haven't exactly just discovered madVR either), and directly contradict a statement I've made, without providing anything that backs up your claims, that's all. On the contrary. And now you're suggesting that I don't know what I'm talking about...

Anyway, you're happy with your settings, I'm happy that you're happy with your settings, so for the sake of the thread, I'll yield :)
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Dylan Seeger on March 12, 2019, 09:34:48 AM
Of course black bars detection will work, you are using software decoding and are not using the GPU hardware acceleration that would be used with D3D11 copyback or native. If you were, the black bars detection would only work with copyback, not with native.

I'm not saying you're inexperienced, you are just making claims about a GPU that go against my own experience (I haven't exactly just discovered madVR either), and directly contradict a statement I've made, without providing anything that backs up your claims, that's all. On the contrary. And now you're suggesting that I don't know what I'm talking about...

Anyway, you're happy with your settings, I'm happy that you're happy with your settings, so for the sake of the thread, I'll yield :)
Are you referring to the screenshots I provided that DO provide contradictory evidence? Without the menu up, I'm seeing 35ms render time with NGU on high, black bar detection enabled and Error Diffusion 1 enabled with my RTX 2070. I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, but yes, I would say you don't know everything. I had to explain three times that I'm using software decoding and you insisted that I was using copyback twice. That was wrong as was my RTX 2070 not being fast enough for the settings you said it couldn't do. It's mostly the attitude you have when posting. It's a patronizing attitude as if you're talking down to people as if they have no idea what they're doing. But maybe I'm reading your posts wrong. 
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: claw on March 12, 2019, 09:49:29 AM
Hi Claw,

He might not use some features, or it might be based on older builds (performance requirements have gone up over the last few weeks). I agree with the performance recommendation: RTX 2080. Maybe he meant a 2060 minimum for tonemapping and nothing else, to override his other minimum? Not sure what his last line means. Please don't mention me if you question this in his thread, the last thing I want is a debate with Onkyoman :)
Thanks.   I only recently ordered the 2060 direct from EVGA.   When it arrives at the end of the week I may just send it back unopened for an exchange to a 2080.

I am not in any hurry.  I have been following the tone mapping development thread and will wait for a public build before I jump in.
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Dylan Seeger on March 12, 2019, 09:53:21 AM
I think sending it back is the right move. If you want to use some of the better settings in madVR I think at least a 2070 is needed with the 2080 being an even better choice if you don't mind spending the extra money. 
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Manni on March 12, 2019, 10:19:43 AM
Are you referring to the screenshots I provided that DO provide contradictory evidence? Without the menu up, I'm seeing 35ms render time with NGU on high, black bar detection enabled and Error Diffusion 1 enabled with my RTX 2070. I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, but yes, I would say you don't know everything. I had to explain three times that I'm using software decoding and you insisted that I was using copyback twice. That was wrong as was my RTX 2070 not being fast enough for the settings you said it couldn't do. It's mostly the attitude you have when posting. It's a patronizing attitude as if you're talking down to people as if they have no idea what they're doing. But maybe I'm reading your posts wrong.

Okay that's enough now.

I didn't insist you were using copyback, I explained to you why I incorrecly assumed you were, and I even aknowledged that it was a bad assumption ("my bad"), based on your uncommon configuration of not using any form of GPU hardware acceleration (copyback or native) for video decoding. Just re-read the posts.

Let's recap what happened to end this:

The OP says that he's thinking of a 2070 and specifies that he plans to use tonemapping and 3D LUTs.

I simply said that a 2070 would be okay, but that he should stretch to a 2080 if he could, especially if he wanted to play 60p content.

Then you directly contradict me, stating that you are using a 2070 with max settings and that a 2080 isn't required.

1) I never said a 2080 was required. I said a 2070 was fine but suggested to move to a 2080 if budget allows given the intentions of the OP, especially if he had any interest in 60p content.
2) You have posted screenshots with empty present and render queues, taken with 2.40 content at 23p, without a 3D LUT, and your rendering times go up to 40 seconds. This doesn't back up in any way your claim that a 2080 isn't needed to handle tonemapping content with a 3D LUT at max settings, especially with 60p content.
3) If you want to prove your claim, please post screenshots of HDR content tonemapped with the latest madVR test build (I give advice based on current/future requirements, not what was true a few months or even a few weeks ago), in RGB 4K23 12bits with 1.78 content, using NGU High for chroma and error diffusion 1 or 2 for dithering, which is what I would call max settings, as well as a 3D LUT, which was one of the OP requirements. You want madVR to report at most one frame drop every hour. That's one frame drop per movie at most, which is acceptable. None is preferred. And the same in 4K60p 8bits with 1.78 60p content, as that was what I stated in the recommendation you directly contradicted. Yes, you need to show full render and present queues, not empty ones. Takes screenshot separately from showing your options if you can't achieve both at the same time. And if your render times are close to 40ms, you will drop frames when the content requires more processing (1.78 content, lots of action, complex tonemapping). So your initial 35ms is a safe threshold, especially for 2.40 content. If you show under 40ms render times for 1.78 content in a scene that requires maximum processing power, that's fine too, but personally I wouldn't consider this a safe margin. 36, 37ms max is what I consider safe for 23p content. Of course, with 60p content, it has to go down to 16ms, so good luck with that :).

I would also suggest you add an empty ShowHDRMode folder so that we can see the detail of the tonemapping being applied, especially whether you're using measurements file or not. As already stated, using measurements files can lower render times, but not everyone wants to measure their files before playback, especially after ripping them. My recommendation was based on using the live algo, with the latest developments. And yes, it requires a lot more power than a few weeks ago.


If you can't prove your claim, please drop this.

I don't have the time for this pointless debate, it's derailing the thread and you're being unfair and unpleasant, for no reason. You contradicting me so bluntly (you could have asked a question instead, for example more details on why I was making this recommendation) was entirely unprovoked, and you are neither taking the OPs requirements into account, especially regarding the need for 3D LUT and tonemapping, nor the qualifications I made in my recommendations, especially regarding 60p content.

Enough.

EDIT: why are we wasting time? I see you are now giving the same advice I did:


I think sending it back is the right move. If you want to use some of the better settings in madVR I think at least a 2070 is needed with the 2080 being an even better choice if you don't mind spending the extra money.


Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: AVSCraig on March 12, 2019, 10:50:28 AM
Chill out guys. You both know more about HTPC's than most people. Lets work together to discuss the different ways of setting these up. No need to argue about this. I'm sort of interested in how to set one up - eventually. 
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Dylan Seeger on March 12, 2019, 10:53:03 AM
Hopefully the the Envy device means you won't have to. It can be a pain in the neck not knowing which hardware to buy let alone which settings are appropriate for the hardware you end up buying. Envy should make things a lot more plug'n play.
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: AVSMike on March 12, 2019, 10:59:05 AM
Hopefully the the Envy device means you won't have to. It can be a pain in the neck not knowing which hardware to buy let alone which settings are appropriate for the hardware you end up buying. Envy should make things a lot more plug'n play.
Yep, the Envy is what I am interested in. I have already gone the HTPC route and it seemed to be too much work to maintain, when microsoft decided to make changes. 
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: AVSCraig on March 12, 2019, 11:11:01 AM
Yep, the Envy is what I am interested in. I have already gone the HTPC route and it seemed to be too much work to maintain, when microsoft decided to make changes.
Oh crap - hadn't thought of that potential problem. A Microsoft update last year disabled my ability to print from my computer. With any printer. Another update at some point gave it back. I would want similar issues in my theater. 
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: woofer on April 11, 2019, 05:37:18 PM
Loving madVR,s Dynamic Tone Mapping... :)



My HTPC build....
PC...
ASUS ROG Maximus IX Hero Motherboard 
Corsair Vengeance LPX CMK32GX4M2A2666C16 32GB (2x16GB) 2666MHz DDR4
Intel Core i7 7700K
MSI GeForce GTX 1080TI Gaming Z, 8GB
Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2 (PCIE) SSD
Seagate IronWolf NAS 8TB, ST4000VN008 x2

ASUS BW-16HTD1-PRO BDXL Drive
SilverStone 1000W Strider Platinum Power Supply

 



Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: blee0120 on June 15, 2019, 12:43:09 PM
I think sending it back is the right move. If you want to use some of the better settings in madVR I think at least a 2070 is needed with the 2080 being an even better choice if you don't mind spending the extra money.
How is the 2070 working for you? With MadVR, is there any reasons to spend extra for the 2080 from your experience? 
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: claw on November 14, 2019, 10:18:20 AM
After purchasing an RTX 2060 and returning it, then waiting for pricing announcements for the Envy that were more than I am willing to pay at this time...  I purchased an RTX 2080 Super which is still about half the price of a 2080 TI.

Instead of building a new HTPC, I decided to install the 2080 into an older HTPC that was formerly used to play Blu-Ray backups with Total Media Theater.   

Not a high spec build at all:

LGA1155 micro ATX motherboard with a single PCIe 2.0 slot
Sandy Bridge I3-2100 low wattage CPU.
8 GB DD3 memory.
Early generation Samsung SSD.
Silverstone GD05B-USB3.0 HTPC Case
Windows 8.1

I did replace the PSU as it was rather low powered and I needed one with both 6-pin and 8-pin connectors for the RTX card.

Even with this low end build, the RTX 2080 is able to support JRiver Red October HQ with MadVR with almost no compromises to get zero dropped frames. 

I will eventually upgrade the motherboard, CPU, and memory.  Just wanted to point out that a high end PC build is not needed to run MadVR.    Spend the money on the best GPU you can afford instead.

Even in this desktop style HTPC case, the 2080 Super idles at 35 degrees.  After MadVR tone mapped a two-hour UHD movie, it reached 65 degrees.  Stopped playback and temps returned quickly to 42 degrees.  I do have 5 case fans installed; 3 intake and 2 out.
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Manni on November 14, 2019, 10:41:18 AM
After purchasing an RTX 2060 and returning it, then waiting for pricing announcements for the Envy that were more than I am willing to pay at this time...  I purchased an RTX 2080 Super which is still about half the price of a 2080 TI.

Instead of building a new HTPC, I decided to install the 2080 into an older HTPC that was formerly used to play Blu-Ray backups with Total Media Theater.   

Not a high spec build at all:

LGA1155 micro ATX motherboard with a single PCIe 2.0 slot
Sandy Bridge I3-2100 low wattage CPU.
8 GB DD3 memory.
Early generation Samsung SSD.
Silverstone GD05B-USB3.0 HTPC Case
Windows 8.1

I did replace the PSU as it was rather low powered and I needed one with both 6-pin and 8-pin connectors for the RTX card.

Even with this low end build, the RTX 2080 is able to support JRiver Red October HQ with MadVR with almost no compromises to get zero dropped frames. 

I will eventually upgrade the motherboard, CPU, and memory.  Just wanted to point out that a high end PC build is not needed to run MadVR.    Spend the money on the best GPU you can afford instead.

Even in this desktop style HTPC case, the 2080 Super idles at 35-40 degrees.  After MadVR tone mapped a two-hour UHD movie, it reached 65 degrees.  Stopped playback and temps returned quickly to 42 degrees.
Glad you're happy with the 2080. jRiver Red October HQ is very low tech though, so doesn't represent a current use. AFAIK Red October HQ simply installs the latest public build of madVR, with lots of compromise in the settings. The release version needs a lot less resources than the latest beta builds, which produce significantly better results but at the cost of a more GPU resources.

You should still be okay with a 2080, but the 2060 will definitely struggle with these, even at 23p.

At 60p, even a 2080ti needs to compromise some settings :)

It's definitely better to put more in the GPU than in the rest of the build. As long as your CPU/memory isn't a bottleneck, it's money well spent (and saved).

Depending on the decoding, the CPU/memory will have more or less of an impact though. So depending on the features you actually need, you might see a bigger CPU use. For example, if you can't use D3D11 native because you want UHD Bluray menus in jRiver or black bar detection, the impact of your low end build might be more visible.

In any case, you need to test the latest beta builds (assuming you haven't installed them yet manually).
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: AVSMike on November 14, 2019, 12:02:39 PM
Woofer, nice job on the computer. :) 
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: claw on November 14, 2019, 02:23:41 PM
Glad you're happy with the 2080. jRiver Red October HQ is very low tech though, so doesn't represent a current use. AFAIK Red October HQ simply installs the latest public build of madVR, with lots of compromise in the settings. The release version needs a lot less resources than the latest beta builds, which produce significantly better results but at the cost of a more GPU resources.

You should still be okay with a 2080, but the 2060 will definitely struggle with these, even at 23p.

At 60p, even a 2080ti needs to compromise some settings :)

It's definitely better to put more in the GPU than in the rest of the build. As long as your CPU/memory isn't a bottleneck, it's money well spent (and saved).

Depending on the decoding, the CPU/memory will have more or less of an impact though. So depending on the features you actually need, you might see a bigger CPU use. For example, if you can't use D3D11 native because you want UHD Bluray menus in jRiver or black bar detection, the impact of your low end build might be more visible.

In any case, you need to test the latest beta builds (assuming you haven't installed them yet manually).
I have been copying the test builds over the 92.17 release that Red October installed, including the 111 build.  And I am able to enable disc menus without impacting performance.    I match up my MadVR settings with what I see you and others using in the improvement thread.

I should make another attempt to use external Lav filters rather than those installed by Red October so I have more control over the option settings.

Now that I am getting good results with no dropped frames, I probably need to create a custom refresh mode to try to eliminate repeated frames that are occurring every 4 minutes or so.   I know the old Sandy Bridge CPUs have a clock bug for 23P and that might be part of the issue with repeated frames.

The one trade performance restriction that I must keep enabled is the one for chroma luminance channel.  If I uncheck it, render times go from 30 ms to over 40 ms with stutter.    Perhaps that option is using more CPU and/or PCIe interface resources than I have available with my old motherboard and CPU.
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Manni on November 14, 2019, 02:38:11 PM
I have been copying the test builds over the 92.17 release that Red October installed, including the 111 build.  And I am able to enable disc menus without impacting performance.    I match up my MadVR settings with what I see you and others using in the improvement thread.

I should make another attempt to use external Lav filters rather than those installed by Red October so I have more control over the option settings.

Now that I am getting good results with no dropped frames, I probably need to create a custom refresh mode to try to eliminate repeated frames that are occurring every 4 minutes or so.

The one trade performance restriction that I must keep enabled is the one for chroma luminance channel.  If I uncheck it, render times go from 30 ms to over 40 ms with stutter.    Perhaps that option is using more CPU and/or PCIe interface resources than I have available with my old motherboard and CPU.
There are many optimizations to try (switching power mode to adaptive instead of optimal in the driver or using ordered dithering, lowering chroma upscaling to NGU medium if you're using a higher setting, increasing or decreasing the queue sizes, etc) that might allow you to not compromise on other things. If you are using UHD BD menus, it means you're using copyback or software decoding, you're also losing perf (compared to using D3D11 native) or relying on your CPU to do this. You could try to look at your load for the CPU / GPU during playback and see if there is a bottleneck.

For refresh rate, that's easy to solve, you just need to install the latest CRU (at least 1.4.1, older versions won't work) and create a custom resolution. I attach the one I've created, you only have to import it in CRU and then select the PC UHD custom resolution. It will say 24p, but it's 23p really and I have no dropped frames for hours, if not days, although jRiver takes a while before updating the "time between frame drop" info. For some reason it starts with a small value, but there is no drop.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: claw on November 15, 2019, 08:47:56 AM
I only just noticed we have 3 separate threads where MadVR is referenced.  This one plus two others:

Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc) (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1654.0)
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1654.0

HTPC for ripping BD, UHD BD and using MadVR (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1647.0)
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1647.0

It would be good if we can keep discussion of MadVR installation, configuration, and setting values in just one thread.

Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: claw on November 17, 2019, 01:13:49 PM
There are many optimizations to try (switching power mode to adaptive instead of optimal in the driver or using ordered dithering, lowering chroma upscaling to NGU medium if you're using a higher setting, increasing or decreasing the queue sizes, etc) that might allow you to not compromise on other things. If you are using UHD BD menus, it means you're using copyback or software decoding, you're also losing perf (compared to using D3D11 native) or relying on your CPU to do this. You could try to look at your load for the CPU / GPU during playback and see if there is a bottleneck.

For refresh rate, that's easy to solve, you just need to install the latest CRU (at least 1.4.1, older versions won't work) and create a custom resolution. I attach the one I've created, you only have to import it in CRU and then select the PC UHD custom resolution. It will say 24p, but it's 23p really and I have no dropped frames for hours, if not days, although jRiver takes a while before updating the "time between frame drop" info. For some reason it starts with a small value, but there is no drop.

Good luck!
Thanks, I was able to load your custom resolution in CRU.  It eliminated both dropped and repeated frames (after 2 or 3 seconds).

I have two remaining issues to tackle regarding dropped/repeated frames:

- I get both dropped and repeated frames for 2-3 seconds when starting playback, skipping chapters, and when resuming playback after a pause.  Then no dropped/repeated frames for the remainder of the movie.

- I still need to compromise performance for chroma channels or I get dropped frames; even though rendering times dropped to 38 ms without the compromise after loading your custom resolution.

I will keep on tinkering.
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: Manni on November 17, 2019, 01:48:43 PM
Thanks, I was able to load your custom resolution in CRU.  It eliminated both dropped and repeated frames (after 2 or 3 seconds).

I have two remaining issues to tackle regarding dropped/repeated frames:

- I get both dropped and repeated frames for 2-3 seconds when starting playback, skipping chapters, and when resuming playback after a pause.  Then no dropped/repeated frames for the remainder of the movie.

- I still need to compromise performance for chroma channels or I get dropped frames; even though rendering times dropped to 38 ms without the compromise after loading your custom resolution.

I will keep on tinkering.
The skipped frames after start/pause/skip is completely normal. Just do a ctrl-r to reset them after 2-3 secs, there shouldn’t be anymore after that.

You need to check your other settings, you shouldn’t need to compromise with a 2080 unless the CPU/memory is a bottleneck. Look at your queues. Are they full?

38ms is still too close to the 41ms limit. You need to be at 35ms max, unless you test with worst case scenario (16/9, no black bars, challenging content, for example Pacific Rim chapter 3).

Make sure you use 8bits RGB, 12bits is slower, not better and chroma is worse.
Title: Re: Build Your Own HTPC
Post by: woofer on November 23, 2019, 03:03:23 AM
Updated my 1080TI to a RTX 2080TI , did a clean install of all software. I can now "nearly" max out all of madVRs quality settings.....

Absolutley "Awesome" image now with the 2080TI and madVR,s HSTM!!!:)

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