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Build Your Own HTPC

claw

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2019, 09:49:29 AM »
Hi Claw,

He might not use some features, or it might be based on older builds (performance requirements have gone up over the last few weeks). I agree with the performance recommendation: RTX 2080. Maybe he meant a 2060 minimum for tonemapping and nothing else, to override his other minimum? Not sure what his last line means. Please don't mention me if you question this in his thread, the last thing I want is a debate with Onkyoman :)
Thanks.   I only recently ordered the 2060 direct from EVGA.   When it arrives at the end of the week I may just send it back unopened for an exchange to a 2080.

I am not in any hurry.  I have been following the tone mapping development thread and will wait for a public build before I jump in.
JVC RS500/LG OLED/Denon X6400H 7.2.4/Panasonic UB820/Oppo 203/AppleTV 4K/FireStick 4K/HDfury Diva/MadVR RTX2080Ti

Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2019, 09:53:21 AM »
I think sending it back is the right move. If you want to use some of the better settings in madVR I think at least a 2070 is needed with the 2080 being an even better choice if you don't mind spending the extra money. 
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Manni

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2019, 10:19:43 AM »
Are you referring to the screenshots I provided that DO provide contradictory evidence? Without the menu up, I'm seeing 35ms render time with NGU on high, black bar detection enabled and Error Diffusion 1 enabled with my RTX 2070. I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, but yes, I would say you don't know everything. I had to explain three times that I'm using software decoding and you insisted that I was using copyback twice. That was wrong as was my RTX 2070 not being fast enough for the settings you said it couldn't do. It's mostly the attitude you have when posting. It's a patronizing attitude as if you're talking down to people as if they have no idea what they're doing. But maybe I'm reading your posts wrong.

Okay that's enough now.

I didn't insist you were using copyback, I explained to you why I incorrecly assumed you were, and I even aknowledged that it was a bad assumption ("my bad"), based on your uncommon configuration of not using any form of GPU hardware acceleration (copyback or native) for video decoding. Just re-read the posts.

Let's recap what happened to end this:

The OP says that he's thinking of a 2070 and specifies that he plans to use tonemapping and 3D LUTs.

I simply said that a 2070 would be okay, but that he should stretch to a 2080 if he could, especially if he wanted to play 60p content.

Then you directly contradict me, stating that you are using a 2070 with max settings and that a 2080 isn't required.

1) I never said a 2080 was required. I said a 2070 was fine but suggested to move to a 2080 if budget allows given the intentions of the OP, especially if he had any interest in 60p content.
2) You have posted screenshots with empty present and render queues, taken with 2.40 content at 23p, without a 3D LUT, and your rendering times go up to 40 seconds. This doesn't back up in any way your claim that a 2080 isn't needed to handle tonemapping content with a 3D LUT at max settings, especially with 60p content.
3) If you want to prove your claim, please post screenshots of HDR content tonemapped with the latest madVR test build (I give advice based on current/future requirements, not what was true a few months or even a few weeks ago), in RGB 4K23 12bits with 1.78 content, using NGU High for chroma and error diffusion 1 or 2 for dithering, which is what I would call max settings, as well as a 3D LUT, which was one of the OP requirements. You want madVR to report at most one frame drop every hour. That's one frame drop per movie at most, which is acceptable. None is preferred. And the same in 4K60p 8bits with 1.78 60p content, as that was what I stated in the recommendation you directly contradicted. Yes, you need to show full render and present queues, not empty ones. Takes screenshot separately from showing your options if you can't achieve both at the same time. And if your render times are close to 40ms, you will drop frames when the content requires more processing (1.78 content, lots of action, complex tonemapping). So your initial 35ms is a safe threshold, especially for 2.40 content. If you show under 40ms render times for 1.78 content in a scene that requires maximum processing power, that's fine too, but personally I wouldn't consider this a safe margin. 36, 37ms max is what I consider safe for 23p content. Of course, with 60p content, it has to go down to 16ms, so good luck with that :).

I would also suggest you add an empty ShowHDRMode folder so that we can see the detail of the tonemapping being applied, especially whether you're using measurements file or not. As already stated, using measurements files can lower render times, but not everyone wants to measure their files before playback, especially after ripping them. My recommendation was based on using the live algo, with the latest developments. And yes, it requires a lot more power than a few weeks ago.


If you can't prove your claim, please drop this.

I don't have the time for this pointless debate, it's derailing the thread and you're being unfair and unpleasant, for no reason. You contradicting me so bluntly (you could have asked a question instead, for example more details on why I was making this recommendation) was entirely unprovoked, and you are neither taking the OPs requirements into account, especially regarding the need for 3D LUT and tonemapping, nor the qualifications I made in my recommendations, especially regarding 60p content.

Enough.

EDIT: why are we wasting time? I see you are now giving the same advice I did:


I think sending it back is the right move. If you want to use some of the better settings in madVR I think at least a 2070 is needed with the 2080 being an even better choice if you don't mind spending the extra money.


« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 02:46:51 PM by Manni »

AVSCraig

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2019, 10:50:28 AM »
Chill out guys. You both know more about HTPC's than most people. Lets work together to discuss the different ways of setting these up. No need to argue about this. I'm sort of interested in how to set one up - eventually. 
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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2019, 10:53:03 AM »
Hopefully the the Envy device means you won't have to. It can be a pain in the neck not knowing which hardware to buy let alone which settings are appropriate for the hardware you end up buying. Envy should make things a lot more plug'n play.
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AVSMike

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2019, 10:59:05 AM »
Hopefully the the Envy device means you won't have to. It can be a pain in the neck not knowing which hardware to buy let alone which settings are appropriate for the hardware you end up buying. Envy should make things a lot more plug'n play.
Yep, the Envy is what I am interested in. I have already gone the HTPC route and it seemed to be too much work to maintain, when microsoft decided to make changes. 
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AVSCraig

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2019, 11:11:01 AM »
Yep, the Envy is what I am interested in. I have already gone the HTPC route and it seemed to be too much work to maintain, when microsoft decided to make changes.
Oh crap - hadn't thought of that potential problem. A Microsoft update last year disabled my ability to print from my computer. With any printer. Another update at some point gave it back. I would want similar issues in my theater. 
Direct (585) 671-2972 8:00am - 4:30pm Pacific 
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We carry projectors, screens, speakers, receivers etc. !!
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woofer

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2019, 05:37:18 PM »
Loving madVR,s Dynamic Tone Mapping... :)



My HTPC build....
PC...
ASUS ROG Maximus IX Hero Motherboard 
Corsair Vengeance LPX CMK32GX4M2A2666C16 32GB (2x16GB) 2666MHz DDR4
Intel Core i7 7700K
MSI GeForce GTX 1080TI Gaming Z, 8GB
Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2 (PCIE) SSD
Seagate IronWolf NAS 8TB, ST4000VN008 x2

ASUS BW-16HTD1-PRO BDXL Drive
SilverStone 1000W Strider Platinum Power Supply

 




Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2019, 12:43:09 PM »
I think sending it back is the right move. If you want to use some of the better settings in madVR I think at least a 2070 is needed with the 2080 being an even better choice if you don't mind spending the extra money.
How is the 2070 working for you? With MadVR, is there any reasons to spend extra for the 2080 from your experience? 

claw

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2019, 10:18:20 AM »
After purchasing an RTX 2060 and returning it, then waiting for pricing announcements for the Envy that were more than I am willing to pay at this time...  I purchased an RTX 2080 Super which is still about half the price of a 2080 TI.

Instead of building a new HTPC, I decided to install the 2080 into an older HTPC that was formerly used to play Blu-Ray backups with Total Media Theater.   

Not a high spec build at all:

LGA1155 micro ATX motherboard with a single PCIe 2.0 slot
Sandy Bridge I3-2100 low wattage CPU.
8 GB DD3 memory.
Early generation Samsung SSD.
Silverstone GD05B-USB3.0 HTPC Case
Windows 8.1

I did replace the PSU as it was rather low powered and I needed one with both 6-pin and 8-pin connectors for the RTX card.

Even with this low end build, the RTX 2080 is able to support JRiver Red October HQ with MadVR with almost no compromises to get zero dropped frames. 

I will eventually upgrade the motherboard, CPU, and memory.  Just wanted to point out that a high end PC build is not needed to run MadVR.    Spend the money on the best GPU you can afford instead.

Even in this desktop style HTPC case, the 2080 Super idles at 35 degrees.  After MadVR tone mapped a two-hour UHD movie, it reached 65 degrees.  Stopped playback and temps returned quickly to 42 degrees.  I do have 5 case fans installed; 3 intake and 2 out.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 10:37:35 AM by claw »
JVC RS500/LG OLED/Denon X6400H 7.2.4/Panasonic UB820/Oppo 203/AppleTV 4K/FireStick 4K/HDfury Diva/MadVR RTX2080Ti

Manni

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2019, 10:41:18 AM »
After purchasing an RTX 2060 and returning it, then waiting for pricing announcements for the Envy that were more than I am willing to pay at this time...  I purchased an RTX 2080 Super which is still about half the price of a 2080 TI.

Instead of building a new HTPC, I decided to install the 2080 into an older HTPC that was formerly used to play Blu-Ray backups with Total Media Theater.   

Not a high spec build at all:

LGA1155 micro ATX motherboard with a single PCIe 2.0 slot
Sandy Bridge I3-2100 low wattage CPU.
8 GB DD3 memory.
Early generation Samsung SSD.
Silverstone GD05B-USB3.0 HTPC Case
Windows 8.1

I did replace the PSU as it was rather low powered and I needed one with both 6-pin and 8-pin connectors for the RTX card.

Even with this low end build, the RTX 2080 is able to support JRiver Red October HQ with MadVR with almost no compromises to get zero dropped frames. 

I will eventually upgrade the motherboard, CPU, and memory.  Just wanted to point out that a high end PC build is not needed to run MadVR.    Spend the money on the best GPU you can afford instead.

Even in this desktop style HTPC case, the 2080 Super idles at 35-40 degrees.  After MadVR tone mapped a two-hour UHD movie, it reached 65 degrees.  Stopped playback and temps returned quickly to 42 degrees.
Glad you're happy with the 2080. jRiver Red October HQ is very low tech though, so doesn't represent a current use. AFAIK Red October HQ simply installs the latest public build of madVR, with lots of compromise in the settings. The release version needs a lot less resources than the latest beta builds, which produce significantly better results but at the cost of a more GPU resources.

You should still be okay with a 2080, but the 2060 will definitely struggle with these, even at 23p.

At 60p, even a 2080ti needs to compromise some settings :)

It's definitely better to put more in the GPU than in the rest of the build. As long as your CPU/memory isn't a bottleneck, it's money well spent (and saved).

Depending on the decoding, the CPU/memory will have more or less of an impact though. So depending on the features you actually need, you might see a bigger CPU use. For example, if you can't use D3D11 native because you want UHD Bluray menus in jRiver or black bar detection, the impact of your low end build might be more visible.

In any case, you need to test the latest beta builds (assuming you haven't installed them yet manually).
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 10:43:53 AM by Manni »

AVSMike

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2019, 12:02:39 PM »
Woofer, nice job on the computer. :) 
My Baffle Wall System: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=124.msg902#msg902

Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com

JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Da-Lite, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan & more.

claw

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2019, 02:23:41 PM »
Glad you're happy with the 2080. jRiver Red October HQ is very low tech though, so doesn't represent a current use. AFAIK Red October HQ simply installs the latest public build of madVR, with lots of compromise in the settings. The release version needs a lot less resources than the latest beta builds, which produce significantly better results but at the cost of a more GPU resources.

You should still be okay with a 2080, but the 2060 will definitely struggle with these, even at 23p.

At 60p, even a 2080ti needs to compromise some settings :)

It's definitely better to put more in the GPU than in the rest of the build. As long as your CPU/memory isn't a bottleneck, it's money well spent (and saved).

Depending on the decoding, the CPU/memory will have more or less of an impact though. So depending on the features you actually need, you might see a bigger CPU use. For example, if you can't use D3D11 native because you want UHD Bluray menus in jRiver or black bar detection, the impact of your low end build might be more visible.

In any case, you need to test the latest beta builds (assuming you haven't installed them yet manually).
I have been copying the test builds over the 92.17 release that Red October installed, including the 111 build.  And I am able to enable disc menus without impacting performance.    I match up my MadVR settings with what I see you and others using in the improvement thread.

I should make another attempt to use external Lav filters rather than those installed by Red October so I have more control over the option settings.

Now that I am getting good results with no dropped frames, I probably need to create a custom refresh mode to try to eliminate repeated frames that are occurring every 4 minutes or so.   I know the old Sandy Bridge CPUs have a clock bug for 23P and that might be part of the issue with repeated frames.

The one trade performance restriction that I must keep enabled is the one for chroma luminance channel.  If I uncheck it, render times go from 30 ms to over 40 ms with stutter.    Perhaps that option is using more CPU and/or PCIe interface resources than I have available with my old motherboard and CPU.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 02:30:40 PM by claw »
JVC RS500/LG OLED/Denon X6400H 7.2.4/Panasonic UB820/Oppo 203/AppleTV 4K/FireStick 4K/HDfury Diva/MadVR RTX2080Ti

Manni

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2019, 02:38:11 PM »
I have been copying the test builds over the 92.17 release that Red October installed, including the 111 build.  And I am able to enable disc menus without impacting performance.    I match up my MadVR settings with what I see you and others using in the improvement thread.

I should make another attempt to use external Lav filters rather than those installed by Red October so I have more control over the option settings.

Now that I am getting good results with no dropped frames, I probably need to create a custom refresh mode to try to eliminate repeated frames that are occurring every 4 minutes or so.

The one trade performance restriction that I must keep enabled is the one for chroma luminance channel.  If I uncheck it, render times go from 30 ms to over 40 ms with stutter.    Perhaps that option is using more CPU and/or PCIe interface resources than I have available with my old motherboard and CPU.
There are many optimizations to try (switching power mode to adaptive instead of optimal in the driver or using ordered dithering, lowering chroma upscaling to NGU medium if you're using a higher setting, increasing or decreasing the queue sizes, etc) that might allow you to not compromise on other things. If you are using UHD BD menus, it means you're using copyback or software decoding, you're also losing perf (compared to using D3D11 native) or relying on your CPU to do this. You could try to look at your load for the CPU / GPU during playback and see if there is a bottleneck.

For refresh rate, that's easy to solve, you just need to install the latest CRU (at least 1.4.1, older versions won't work) and create a custom resolution. I attach the one I've created, you only have to import it in CRU and then select the PC UHD custom resolution. It will say 24p, but it's 23p really and I have no dropped frames for hours, if not days, although jRiver takes a while before updating the "time between frame drop" info. For some reason it starts with a small value, but there is no drop.

Good luck!
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 05:29:47 PM by Manni »

claw

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Re: Build Your Own HTPC
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2019, 08:47:56 AM »
I only just noticed we have 3 separate threads where MadVR is referenced.  This one plus two others:

Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1654.0

HTPC for ripping BD, UHD BD and using MadVR
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1647.0

It would be good if we can keep discussion of MadVR installation, configuration, and setting values in just one thread.

JVC RS500/LG OLED/Denon X6400H 7.2.4/Panasonic UB820/Oppo 203/AppleTV 4K/FireStick 4K/HDfury Diva/MadVR RTX2080Ti

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