JVC RS1000 / 2000 Anticipation Thread

[Dylan Seeger]

I think you are refering to posterization and so on. Well that is your right, I can understand that people get annoyed buy that. On the other hand I can unterstand also that others are annoyed by JVC "quirks"

Yes, see my edited post. Posterization on the Sony's is awful and I plan on taking photos between a current generation Sony 4K model (probably the VW-295ES) and my RS2000/N7 when it arrives to show people how much fine detail is lost in chroma/color resolution due to this issue. I'll finally be able to 1:1 pixel match a JVC to a Sony 4K model. I'd even make the argument that Sony shouldn't be calling these projectors native 4K due to how bad this issue actually is. My opinion is that the issue with posterization is the reason why JVC eshift projectors come so close in perceived resolution compared to Sony 4K projectors.

Have you brought up the issue of posterization and banding with the Sony engineers? If so, what have the said? From what I've been told it is a hardware related issue in the device that feeds the SXRD panels information, the "panel drivers". There is a bottleneck with that device in which pixels cannot be sent discreet information and this is why posterization happens. For a company that supposedly cares more than I think they do, 8 years is a long time to not see a fix.

The drifting on JVC projectors happens once within the first 400-500 hours. You can fix this issue using their calibration software. That is not the case with Sony projectors. You can fix drift on them too initially, but it will continue to get worse and worse to the point where using their calibration software can no longer correct for the amount of drift.

[Andreas21]

Yes, see my edited post. Posterization on the Sony's is awful and I plan on taking photos between a current generation Sony 4K model (probably the VW-295ES) and my RS2000/N7 when it arrives to show people how much fine detail is lost in chroma/color resolution due to this issue. I'll finally be able to 1:1 pixel match a JVC to a Sony 4K model. I'd even make the argument that Sony shouldn't be calling these projectors native 4K due to how bad this issue actually is. My opinion is that the issue with posterization is the reason why JVC eshift projectors come so close in perceived resolution compared to Sony 4K projectors.

Have you brought up the issue of posterization and banding with the Sony engineers? If so, what have the said? From what I've been told it is a hardware related issue in the device that feeds the SXRD panels information, the "panel drivers". There is a bottleneck with that device in which pixels cannot be sent discreet information and this is why posterization happens.

The drifting on JVC projectors happens once within the first 400-500 hours. You can fix this issue using their calibration software. That is not the case with Sony projectors. You can fix drift on them too initially, but it will continue to get worse and worse to the point where using their calibration software can no longer correct for the amount of drift.

The JVC Autocal program is proof JVC knows there is a gamma drop problem, if not the program would not exist it is way to bad if you want your projector to have reference level(all delta e under 1) after calibration. And once corrected either manually or with an autocal the drop is gone and it stays stable for thousands of hours. I follow a RS600(among many) with over 3000 hours and I have only needed to do adjustments to correct the gamma drop once, after that it is only minor adjustments to get it to reference level (all delta e under 1). This is the same on all JVC projectors I follow and the same goes for many others and we together have many hundreds of JVC projectors in our database.

[Dylan Seeger]

The JVC Autocal program is proof JVC knows there is a gamma drop problem, if not the program would not exist it is way to bad if you want your projector to have reference level(all delta e under 1) after calibration. And once corrected either manually or with an autocal the drop is gone and it stays stable for thousands of hours. I follow a RS600(among many) with over 3000 hours and I have only needed to do adjustments to correct the gamma drop once, after that it is only minor adjustments to get it to reference level (all delta e under 1). This is the same on all JVC projectors I follow and the same goes for many others and we together have many hundreds of JVC projectors in our database.

I also see Cine4Home continues his arrogant tone in here and ignore my comments and that is fine with me.

A very well known professional calibrator here in the US, Jeff Meier of AccuCal, has publicly stated that he is no longer taking clients that own Sony projectors. He says the issue is so bad that he has to make severe calibration changes with the special Sony calibration software every time he goes back to a client's home. The only Sony projectors he will continue to calibrate are old clients who still have them in their theaters. He has completely written off Sony projectors due to these issues. He correlates it completely with SXRD panel degradation and has stated that the issue persists even on currently selling 2019 models.

[Andreas21]

A very well known professional calibrator here in the US, Jeff Meier of AccuCal, has publicly stated that he is no longer taking clients that own Sony projectors. He says the issue is so bad that he has to make severe calibration changes with the special Sony calibration software every time he goes back to clients homes. The only Sony projectors he will continue to calibrate are old clients who still have them in their theaters. He has completely written off Sony projectors due to these issues. He correlates it completely with SXRD panel degradation and has stated that the issue persists even on currently selling 2019 models.

I see exactly the same. I have stopped referring people to buy Sony projectors and I am 100% sure the degradation happens to the new models as well. But I will not go into another discussion about this as the last time I did I got really bad threats via PM on the other forum and the person who sent them is still a member there and I am not... 

I see bad things also with JVC models as they tend to shrink a little in the gamut over time, but this can also be corrected with the Autocal program if you have good equipment and know how to use it to make your Spyder more accurate.

[ARROW-AV]

Disagreeing is fine, defamation is not. Red line was crossed. That is why I do not want to deal with this guy (Nigel is his name?) anymore, I put him on my ignore list.

Complete other story with Kris, he is like I said the exact opposite. Of course I talk to him about my findings.

So I hope we can put this all to a rest and talk about the N-series here.  I really do not like the aggressive atmosphere at the old AVS and I hope it is another spirit over here, that is why i registered today.


Regards,
Ekki

Hello Ekki,
With the utmost respect I did email you to ask you about your claimed 80,000:1 ON/OFF contrast performance for the SONY 885/760ES but you never replied... I have posted openly on AVSForum over a long period of time asking for clarity as to how you were achieving a measurement that no other video professional has, wherein we are all measuring peak circa 20,000 - 23,000:1 and this by the way includes Kris Deering who is a very good friend of mine (we converse daily and hang out at CEDIA together) who is just as baffled as I am regarding your claims.

I am asking for you to look at this from my point of view… I have emails that you previously sent me that are very ’anti-JVC’ (again this is not defamation because this is true and I still have copies of the emails), coupled with seemingly inflated measurements for SONY projectors, such as for example the SONY 885/760ES where you are quoting figures much higher than all of the video professionals that I am aware of are measuring, wherein by the way SONY themselves when Kris Deering submitted his review of the SONY 885/760 for fact checking to SONY wherein he stated that the peak ON/OFF measures 20,000:1 and that the dynamic dimming does hardly anything outside of fade-to-black, SONY gave him the thumbs up. Furthermore, I myself have conversed directly with SONY regarding my measurements and similarly they have confirmed that these "are within the expected range" and regarding the dynamic contrast functionality being very weak SONY confirmed to me in an email and I quote "people may not notice much of a change". Hence why I am confident that our measurements, which also all concur with each other, are correct. Furthermore, I had noted your negative comments regarding JVC "since the JVCKenwood merger" on occasion... And when I email you to ask you how you are achieving your much higher, different measurements I do not receive any response from you. So, you will please have to excuse my forming such opinion.

We are both adults here and should be able to have a civilized conversation. I believe that you have made a mistake regarding the SONY 885/760ES, but like everyone I am not perfect and I make mistakes on occasion as well and so I  might have made a mistake in this instance with respect to my opinion regarding your being biased, in which case If I have got you wrong I’d like to make good and do right by you.

The problem we have is that we have folks on AVSForum repeatedly quoting and citing your claimed measurements of 80,000:1 for the SONY 885/760ES and now 50,000:1 for the SONY 995/870ES, which neither myself nor my fellow video professionals are able to replicate, which includes Kris Deering by the way, and so this is causing a lot of confusion accordingly, so we are keen to get to the bottom of the matter. And yes I do know how to take measurements properly thank you.

Do these figures relate to circumstances other than with the projectors being accurately calibrated to less than 1% DE accuracy and to D65 White Point? This could partly explain things? In which case what we might have here is simply a case of apples-versus-oranges, where if this is the case then it is important that we can let people know what exactly these measurements relate to and the fact that we need to be using apples-with-apples measurements when comparing projectors. So if your measurements correspond to something different then ours then this would explain everything.

I hope we can move forward and if you were to meet me sometime I’d like to buy you lunch and/or a drink wherein I have no doubt that you would realize that I am actually nothing but a decent guy who is like your good self nuts about A/V

Best,
Nigel

[Dylan Seeger]

Let's try and keep this civilized. I feel Ekki might be scared away from this forum too if he is continually harassed. This forum isn't popular enough yet to lose people especially someone as knowledgeable as Ekki even if you don't agree with everything he says.

[Manni]

I for one really hope that we can keep the discussion civil here.

Because if it becomes like AVS, we'll need to find another safe haven

[Dylan Seeger]

I for one really hope that we can keep the discussion civil here.

Because if it becomes like AVS, we'll need to find another safe haven

Exactly, let's not stoop as low as AVSForum.

[Andreas21]

I find the tone in here very different than on AVS and people are also allowed to say what they mean without getting reported and banned. I agree we need to keep it civilised, but also open and people dont have to be so easily insulted by every small discussion.

[Cine4Home]

Nigel,

I really did not get an email from you for ages, honestly. Last time we emailed was about all the Z1 issues where we both(!) were no very amused about JVC if I am allowed to remind you ;-)

I am never anti brand, I just evaluate products. And it is no secret that I do no think that the Z1 lives up to its hype for many reasons. But I do not want to start that discussion now, because that would never end.

If I did receive emails form you after that, I would of course have talked to you about it. Maybe they are in my spam filter, dunno.

Coming back to AVS after over a year of abstinence seeng all this badmouthing from you, I was just done with it. Like I said above, I have no problem with discussions, but not on that level. I simply have not the time for such endless back & forth, participating in forums is just a hobby of me.

But I can see that you try to sort things out and at least admit that you might be wrong about me being biased. I do appreciate that, which is why I answer here now ;-)

To be honest, I never had a bad impression of you until I saw all that bashing against me which I btw. do not understand at all. I did never anything against you and never talked badly about you anyhwere. I just do not agree with you on the Z1 perfomance it seems, that is all.

So ok, lets just be decent to each other again :-)

Regarding the VW Lasers, I havent followed that discussion on AVS at all. At one point someone posted in my forum that he only reaches 22.000:1 max(!) with dimming. That is quite odd, as the VW4k models can reach that natively already.

Regards,
Ekki

 

[Cine4Home]

Can we please just try to have respectful conversation?

 

Thanks & Regards,
Ekki

[AVSMike]

Mike, when do you get yours?

Hopefully in February.

[Andreas21]

Can we please just try to have respectful conversation?

 

Thanks & Regards,
Ekki

I agree with that 100%! 

[Cine4Home]

Have you brought up the issue of posterization and banding with the Sony engineers? If so, what have the said? From what I've been told it is a hardware related issue in the device that feeds the SXRD panels information, the "panel drivers". There is a bottleneck with that device in which pixels cannot be sent discreet information and this is why posterization happens.

I had such a discussion with them about it when the VW5000 came out which had inacceptable color depth. First reaction was that the player is incompatible (only Panasonic & Samsung available back then) but then they released an update which solved it to an acceptable level in my opinion. With "acceptable" I mean that by far most people do not notice it and personally am not so allergic against it either. But it is still there.

I do not think that a digital bottleneck causes it as the posterization differs with Panel temperature. And it also occurs with FullHD. And there is a big deviation between machines also. I therefore think more of a PWM issue.

Regards,
Ekki

[Dylan Seeger]

Hopefully in February.

The temptation to take the first unit AVScience got would be too much for me. You must have the patience of a saint.

(or just a very strict protocol about who gets the first units haha)