Banned at AVSForum

[Dylan Seeger]

It's been fun watching the other forum where the Sony fanboys are trying to justify projector-added banding in the image by making it seem that it's somehow an okay issue. This morning I saw a moderator and administrator comment on all the reported "complaints" they've received about a member posting in the 285ES/385ES thread regarding issues they were seeing on their 550/675ES. Apparently the complainers reporting these posts think that the issues seen on a 550/675ES have no bearing on the 285ES/385ES. This is something I find laughable. Their argument is that these projectors are inherently different. I hate to break it the deniers out there but all lamp-based units currently sold by Sony are built on the same exact platform and the vast majority of parts remain exactly the same between them. How do you think Sony cuts down on costs and is able to bring one of these projectors to market for half the cost as last year? It's called economies of scale. JVC has been doing this for about a decade now and is how they're able to bring performance levels down so far in cost. The only meaningful differences between them are an iris in the lens and the wattage of the lamps inside them. The video processing solution, panels, lens quality, I/O, ect are the same between these models. Why on earth wouldn't the 675ES exhibit the same problems that these others models exhibit? Why can't you use the 675ES as added proof to issues on the 285ES/385ES? In fact, didn't we hear last year when the 675ES was released that these exact same banding problems were present with a 4K60 10bit image? hmmm interesting....but yes, continue to complain to the moderators to discredit evidence when it's put forth. These complainers that the mods/admins talked about are children who've taken their pride of ownership to the next level and will purposefully band together to mislead and inject ambiguous tones to issues that their projector has. On top of this they're reporting posts so they're removed, which in turn makes it so less people will think the projector they own has issues. Grow up. Nothing is perfect. Just admit and live with the issues.

One owner who spoke with ES Support confirmed this is a hardware issue and is not something that can be fixed via firmware. It will be an issue present until at least new models are released. Even then, if Sony doesn't update their 5 year old 4K SXRD platform I suspect these issues will remain. This platform needs a complete overhaul. New revised SXRD panels, panel drivers, video processing, I/O upgrades and a nicer lens. If they don't update all of this I have a feeling 4K DiLA is going to wipe the floor clean with these SXRD models once JVC has some price-competitive native 4K projectors out. Their Eshift platform already puts out better overall image quality as it stands IMO, and does this for less money. More lumens, more contrast, a better lens, better video processing, full 18Gbps ports, subjectively as good on-screen resolution, more color saturation and does this while putting out less noise and heat. This now 5-year old platform is really starting to show it's age. Instead of Sony trying to make the most of this aging platform (which is failing to produce a clean and accurate image) they need to make the investment for next year and release a completely revamped 4K SXRD platform. It's a must. I've already discussed how this current platform is held back in my 285ES comparison write up. Color-wise, in all modes and input types, 4K SXRD is not able to produce a full 4K image. It may have 8.8 million pixels, but it cannot faithfully represent the color information that's present in these 4K sources discreetly to all 8.8 million of those pixels. Again, we need upgrades with Sony's hardware for this to happen.

I keep seeing one member making the claim that the same banding he saw on his 675ES was also there on the RS600. Sure, if banding is in the source, an RS600 will show it. JVC projectors have always been the more analytical projectors rendering the video closer to what is in the source. But we objectively know that these newest Sony's are showing additional banding not present in source material, so claims that these SXRD projectors have no influence on showing this artifact are complete BS and I think is purposefully misleading. I hope as much effort that went into a CMD banding fix goes into a fix for banding on SXRD projectors. But it seems many of the same members who were hell bent on getting CMD fixed are, hypocritically, the ones who are trying to make it seem as if this is a non-issue or that it's not actually the projector causing it. I also see that they're lauding Ekki's findings that the issue can be somewhat mitigated by using a special set of menu settings. But in reality are most users going to know about this and implement them? Is this acceptable performance with out-of-the-box settings which is how the vast majority of end users are going to use their projector? I don't think so. If Ekki's findings are true, Sony should issue a firmware update to make these settings the default ones or make a production line change so that this is how the projector performs out of the box.

[AVSCraig]

After reading this I had to go catch up on those threads. There are more than a few complaints ! Too bad - the Sony's throw a nice picture otherwise.

[Dylan Seeger]

After reading this I had to go catch up on those threads. There are more than a few complaints ! Too bad - the Sony's throw a nice picture otherwise.

I just found it ridiculous that these people were trying to shut up a 550ES (675ES) owner because he was being vocal in the 285ES/385ES threads to help show off the issue these units are having with a 60hz 4k HDR image being sent to the projector. And it was enough complaints that not one, but two forum staff commented on it. He's been the most vocal person and they want to use a cheap excuse (it not being a 285ES/385ES) as a way to shut him up in those threads. I think these guys have reached an all time low. Like I said before, just own the issue.  Stop trying to make it seem as if the issue is not real or not the fault of the projector. Maybe if they hadn't dug themselves into such a large hole to begin with necessitating that these new Sony's be pretty much perfect they'd do the right thing and be as vocal to Sony about these issues as they were about CMD banding to JVC and potential JVC buyers. But they can't admit to these faults because they're so invested into the same old arguments they've been making for months that they'd look foolish to go against what they've been spouting for so long. If anyone reading this feels I've made the wrong assessment on this situation please let me know.

[HarperVision]

No advertising on this forum.

Except for you and Craig selling for the awesome AV Science store!

[HarperVision]

I just found it ridiculous that these people were trying to shut up a 550ES (675ES) owner because he was being vocal in the 285ES/385ES threads to help show off the issue these units are having with a 60hz 4k HDR image being sent to the projector. And it was enough complaints that not one, but two forum staff commented on it. He's been the most vocal person and they want to use a cheap excuse (it not being a 285ES/385ES) as a way to shut him up in those threads. I think these guys have reached an all time low. Like I said before, just own the issue.  Stop trying to make it seem as if the issue is not real or not the fault of the projector. Maybe if they hadn't dug themselves into such a large hole to begin with necessitating that these new Sony's be pretty much perfect they'd do the right thing and be as vocal to Sony about these issues as they were about CMD banding to JVC and potential JVC buyers. But they can't admit to these faults because they're so invested into the same old arguments they've been making for months that they'd look foolish to go against what they've been spouting for so long. If anyone reading this feels I've made the wrong assessment on this situation please let me know.

I know we have had our differences Dylan, but I agree with you on this myself.

[AVSCraig]

Except for you and Craig selling for the awesome AV Science store!

We are equal opportunity resellers !    No bias - we accept cash for JVC, Sony, Epson and many other brands ! 

[Dylan Seeger]

I know we have had our differences Dylan, but I agree with you on this myself.

I appreciate that. Thanks

[Dylan Seeger]

I think Craig and Mike do a good job at keeping personal feelings out of their posts. They tend to use objective reasoning when answering most questions. Though I'm sure if asked in a more private environment, they'll tell you what they personally think.

[AVSCraig]

I think Craig and Mike do a good job at keeping personal feelings out of their posts. They tend to use objective reasoning when answering most questions. Though I'm sure if asked in a more private environment, they'll tell you what they personally think.

I'll tell you what I think - projectors are basically TV's. They are expensive toys, and they are fun. None are perfect, but since I can guarantee 100% that I'll be dead in less than 50 years, the search for the perfect projector is fruitless. You pick the best machine you can comfortably afford, with compromises ( they all have them ) you can live with, and go watch some movies with your friends and family. Which reminds me, I'd better get my Halloween Film Festival schedule together ! 

But seriously, when someone calls asking about projectors, I give them pricing, the pros and cons of each one, and sometimes a homework assignment to read reviews at projectorreviews.com and sound and vision. I say " read up on these projectors you're interested in and call back tomorrow ". If one of you guys call, you already know what you want - I'm just an order taker. Everyone else gets sent to class to some degree. That way they can make an informed purchase. And I rarely have an unhappy customer ( almost never ).   

[stanger89]

"Coincidentally", it sure seems like there's a lot more dealers, especially Sony and DLP (Optoma), posting openly on the other forum than there used to be....

[AVSMike]

Seems like the wild west over there at times. For a while, AVSF was letting people post whatever they wanted, regarding street prices.

[AVSCraig]

"Coincidentally", it sure seems like there's a lot more dealers, especially Sony and DLP (Optoma), posting openly on the other forum than there used to be....

Something else new - Sony sending " imagic " / Mark Henninger projectors to review. Interesting.

[reddman71]

I've been a member of AVSForum for a number of years. I'm mostly a sit back,listen and learn type of guy. I've noticed as it's been mentioned numerous that there is very little objectivity there now. Some defend a brand even when logical and irrefutable evidence is laid out before them. Which to me is shameful. "I'm ok with the banding because the picture is so great on this Sony" Really? LMAO. Why wasn't the JVC afforded the same exception?


Dylan,
 I've quietly watched you try repeatedly attempt to reason with the same individuals on many occasions with no success.
Instead of listening and giving a few minutes attention to what you were stating, you were attacked. You gave as good as you received though and I must say that I respect the passion that you have for this hobby and I've learned a lot from you and other more impartial guys over time.

There's an agenda being strongly pushed at AVSForum

[Dylan Seeger]

I've been a member of AVSForum for a number of years. I'm mostly a sit back,listen and learn type of guy. I've noticed as it's been mentioned numerous that there is very little objectivity there now. Some defend a brand even when logical and irrefutable evidence is laid out before them. Which to me is shameful. "I'm ok with the banding because the picture is so great on this Sony" Really? LMAO. Why wasn't the JVC afforded the same exception?


Dylan,
 I've quietly watched you try repeatedly attempt to reason with the same individuals on many occasions with no success.
Instead of listening and giving a few minutes attention to what you were stating, you were attacked. You gave as good as you received though and I must say that I respect the passion that you have for this hobby and I've learned a lot from you and other more impartial guys over time.

There's an agenda being strongly pushed at AVSForum

I think the answer to the question in bold is simple. These same people who didn't afford the JVC the same exception blindly defended a product that wasn't released yet, while also blindly pre-ordering it, and now they would look like fools if they were to admit that the projector they bought has the same issues. So obviously downplay and excuses are happening. They kind of need to live with the choices they've made because they'd be ridiculed if they went back to a (now fixed) JVC projector.

In the end though, I think everyone making such a fuss about 60p HDR banding is a good thing. I think all the negative publicity is going to force Sony into making a fix and this is good news for all consumers who end up buying a Sony 4K SXRD projector. This is what kind of bothers me about Sony threads on AVSForum. It's like they don't realize that talking about these issues is the best way to get them fixed. Negative publicity is easily the best way to get a problem fixed and some Sony owners don't realize this. Or maybe they do realize this but their pride of ownership (and seemingly endless pursuit of hushing up criticism) is holding them back. In the end it seems like they would rather live with the issues, as they don't want them discussed, so that the perception of their projector remains good or "better" than everything else. Maybe I'm being a little harsh here, but as I've said many times before, Sony 4K projector owners seem to be the only ones exhibiting this phenomenon. I just don't see people reporting posts in the JVC and Epson threads that discuss negative aspects and I especially don't see those who are wishing to speak out against a JVC or Epson projector needing to start their own thread. The CMD banding thread was started only because AMartin56 wanted the problem headlined anytime someone went to the $3000+ forum. He wasn't forced to start his own thread outside the JVC owners threads like many discussing Sony problems were forced to do. Myself included.

[DavidHir]

I think a lot of it is, Sony's product release history has allowed them to create a certain blind loyal following. Maybe it stems back from the days of Betamax, or Walkman, or Trinitron CRT, or PlayStation, or Blu-ray.  I'm probably forgetting other products they were behind.  But they created a fanbase and their marketing allowed them to create an almost majestic image that no other manufacturer has been able to reach.  I mean the label "Sony fanboy" goes way back and beyond front projection.  I believe some of these people think when they buy a Sony, it's the best money can buy, period; and it's not to be questioned especially considering how much they paid.  "It HAS to be the best.  It's a Sony!"  People who buy other manufacturer products don't have this sort of emotional attachment or response to a brand and therefore can be more objective - generally speaking.