AVS Discussions

Projectors => Premium Projectors => Topic started by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:25:52 AM

Title: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:25:52 AM
Hi everyone,

As the new JVC Autocal Software is available, I thought it would be useful to create a dedicated thread to collect here the best practice and calibration tips for this version of the software (V11/V12) and the new native 4K models.

IMPORTANT WARNING: using the Autocal software changes internal tables in the projector. The first time you use it and save a calibration, it will create a .INIT file that contains the calibration tables as they were when the PJ left the factory. This .init file is saved in the folder you have selected in the software settings. There is no way to re-create this .INIT file if you lose it or delete it, yet restoring this .INIT file is the only way to revert the PJ to its factory state (doing a factory reset in the service menu only restores user settings, not calibration tables). So please make sure that you back up this .INIT and keep the back-up copy in a safe place. Also, using any software means that things can go wrong. It's a software. There can be bugs. Updating the f/w to V2.01, which is necessary to use the latest version of the Autocal, should be done carefully as there are opportunities for things to go wrong during that process too. If you read further, you acknowledge these risks and agree that you are using the software at your own risk. Please don't blame me if anything goes wrong, especially if you have not made sure to keep your .init file safe, or read and followed JVC's instructions for the f/w update. If you don't feel comfortable with this, please don't use the Autocal software, or ask a competent calibrator to use it for you.

EDIT 10-09-19: a new f/w V3.10 has been released as well as a new Autocal V12 which adds support for the Spyder X. See links below, as well as a brief report here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14262#msg14262).

I've added most recently some recommended settings and detailed brightness and contrast measurements, as well as calibration measurements and a first impression / mini review of my rs2000, all linked in the next post.

I've also added advice for preparation and calibration, as well as advanced tips and results. The whole basic section is completed.

You'll also find in the next post useful links to external resources or direct access to specific posts in this thread, either in the "reference" part (posts 2-29) or the body of the thread as it grows up. [Note: For now, only the links to posts with actual content are "live". I'll add the links as content is posted. Please refrain from asking questions about a [reserved] section until the initial content for the section has been posted. Thanks!]

I've tried to organize the information to make it easy for beginners to get started and for experienced users to get more advanced stuff. If you have any questions regarding calibrating the 2019 JVCs, please feel to ask in the thread, however...

IF YOU'RE STUCK WITH THE SOFTWARE, BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION IN THIS THREAD: please read the documentation linked below, as well as the Troubleshooting/FAQ in the Basic section. Thanks!

More later...
Title: Useful Links and Index to Content
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:26:30 AM
[NOTE: Under Construction, only the links with actual content are "live" for now]

GENERAL
Guidelines for participating to this thread (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg11491#msg11491)
JVC F/W V3.10 (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000/) (needed to use V12 of the Autocal software with Spyder X support) and previous f/w older versions with Spyder 5 support
JVC Autocal software V12 V1.0 (needs f/w 3.10) for Spyder X, or V11 for Spyder 5 and user manual download (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000_calibrationsoft.html), brief report here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14262#msg14262).
JVC RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 User Manual (http://www33.jvckenwood.com/pdfs/B5A-2809-0C.pdf)
Screen adjustment mode table (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/projector/screen/#nx9)
Cine4Home review of an old version with pictures showing meter placement and screenshots (http://www.cine4home.de/knowhow/JVC_DLA_X500_X700_X900_Autokalibrierung/JVC_X-Serie_Autokalibrierung_X500.htm)
JVC RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 Owners' Thread (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1894.0)


MINI-REVIEW
First Impressions on my rs2000 (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10384#msg10384)
Feedback to JVC / Suggested Improvements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10385#msg10385)

FOR ALL USERS
Basic: How does the JVC Autocal work? (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10386#msg10386)
Basic: Which Meter to use? (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10387#msg10387)
Basic: Recommended settings (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10388#msg10388)
Basic: Preparation (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10389#msg10389)
Basic: Calibration (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10390#msg10390)
Basic: Results and optional verification with another software (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10391#msg10391)
Basic: Troubleshooting/FAQ (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10392#msg10392)
Basic: JVC HDR Auto-Tonemapping feature (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10393#msg10393)

FOR EXPERIENCED USERS
Advanced: Main changes from previous versions (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10394#msg10394)
Advanced: Detailed Brightness Measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10395#msg10395)
Advanced: Detailed Contrast Measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10396#msg10396)
Advanced: Factory Color profile measurements
Advanced: Detailed pre/post measurements for SDR Rec-709 (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10398#msg10398)
Advanced: Detailed pre/post measurements for HDR BT-2020 (BT-2020 color profile, with filter) (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10399#msg10399)
Advanced: Detailed pre/post measurements for HDR BT-2020 (HDR colour profile, no filter) (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10400#msg10400)
Advanced: Detailed pre-post measurements for SDR DCI-P3 (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10401#msg10401)
Advanced: Checking a Spyder 5 for accuracy (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10402#msg10402)
Advanced: Correcting the Spyder's errors with a reference meter
Advanced: Using Custom Color profiles (and profiles to download)
Advanced: Manual Gamma Calibration (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10405#msg10405)
Advanced: Using Custom Gamma Curves
Advanced: Using a Vertex/Maestro and the JVC Macro feature
Advanced: Using a  3D LUT for Reference Calibration after the Autocal (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10408#msg10408)
Advanced: Reserved
Advanced: Reserved
Advanced: To Do List and Various Notes


In the thread:
Basic: How long should I wait before doing an Autocal? (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14286#msg14286)
Advanced: Meter profiling tips (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg13361#msg13361)
Advanced: Quick tips for madVR calibration in Calman (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14541#msg14541) (brief off topic)
Advanced: Any advantage in using profile off with the filter VS DCI-P3 or BT2020? (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14770#msg14770)
Advanced: Manual gamma calibration using Autocal and a third party software (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14303#msg14303)
Title: First Impressions (RS2000/NX7) / Mini Review
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:26:37 AM
This isn't a full review, just first impressions so that you don't think I only watch patterns and spit measurements :)  .

I might update these initial thoughts once I've spent more time with the projector, and once a new f/w (expected in March) hopefully solves a few minor issues, especially regarding the dynamic iris.

The room
My (small) room is a fully dedicated room (bat loft, zero ambient light, fully black velvet/black carpet covered).
My (small) screen is a Carada BW 88" diag 16/9 (about 2m wide) with an effective nominal gain (1.3 advertised).

There is only one row, and my sitting distance is just above 1 screen width, at 2.10 meters.
The throw distance is 3.60m.
The projector is shelf mounted, at the moment below my old RS500, but I will soon swap them as the rs2000 is here to stay :)
When mounted in the upper shelf, the lens is aligned with the top of the screen height.
Horizontally, the lens isn't centered due to room constraints so I need a significant amount of vertical lens shift and some amount of horizontal shit.

The PJ was shipped double boxed, with a good amount of packing material between the OEM box and the outside box. The outer box was a bit bashed on one side, the internal box was a bit squashed in one corner, and the hard packing white material inside was cracked in a few places. So it looks like every single layer of protection did its job, and there was no cosmetic or internal damage to the projector. I have no doubt that the increased weight of the these models makes it more likely for the product to get damaged during transport. I hope that JVC will consider improving the packing material, especially when distributors/dealers don't use double boxing.

The unit is an RS2000 with a production date of January 2019. It came with the V1.20 f/w and had been QCed by JVC US.


Initial Inspection
The PJ is very good, but not perfect. I am not expecting a unicorn or a golden sample when I receive a production unit such as this one, I only expect no obvious defect that would significantly impact the actual performance and would be noticeable when watching actual content. I am especially sensitive to bright corners and dead/stuck pixels, because these are the most offensive defects that I see all the time once I've spotted them.

Convergence is good (less than one pixel across the screen) but not outstanding. I have less than half a pixel out vertically on red, even after one hour warm-up, on the lower half of the screen. I don't like using fine zone correction, so I only use pixel correction. One click on red make the unit fine for my standards. No visible issue on screen.

Focus uniformity is good, though not perfect. Again, completely acceptable. The lens is very sharp (sharper than my rs500).

Brightness uniformity is very good. I have one slight bright corner in the lower left, and an even slight one in the lower right. Invisible most of the time, except on fade to black, after a few seconds. Again, knowing how it can be on some units, I'm happy with this.

No white uniformity issue either.

Oh I forgot to say, no streaking, horizontal or vertical, at least none that I could see without looking for it, even with a 2% white pattern on a black screen.

Overall, this is a very good unit, even if it's not a golden sample. So nothing to complain about. It's a keeper! :)


Initial set-up
This model is easy to set-up. See my recommended settings for each kind of content. There is a bug in the DI (see below) so I watched most of the content with the DI disabled. The main thing to keep an eye out for is the brightness setting, that in my case raises the black floor and kills the on/off contrast with its default of zero. All my previous units were fine at zero (I use HDMI standard so video levels 16-235), I even had to raise it to +1 on the rs500. So make sure you check for this, I explain how in the recommended settings.

One of the most significant improvement from an ease-of-use point of view is the reduced HDMI sync times: they were as high as 15-20 seconds with the rs500, and they are down to 5-7 seconds with the rs2000, which is the same as my LG 4K monitor. I don't even think about it anymore, and that was one of my main issues with the rs500.


Calibration
I've posted very detailed calibration, brightness and contrast measurements in the advanced section. The calibration I used with MadVR was my DCI-P3 calibration (DCI custom profile using the P3 filter to get 99% of P3 gamut cover and 100% of P3 color volume, gamma 2.2, 6500K preset adjusted to D65 using my Discus profiled to my i1pro2). MadVR is able to discard the BT2020 container and deliver DCI-P3. This is not an option for consumer sources, as they can only deliver BT2020 (or rec-709), unless you use a VP such as the Radiance Pro. So you should use a BT2020 or HDR color profile in that case, as explained in the recommended settings.

Low lamp, iris fully open, I get a native contrast of around 30,000:1 and a dynamic contrast of around 175,000:1. Again you'll find detailed brightness and contrast measurements in the advanced section.

In low lamp, the use of the filter cuts 20%. In high lamp, it cuts only 10%. I'm very happy to use the filter in low lamp, but of course with a larger screen you might want to save brightness and use the HDR color profile instead of the BT2020 color profile.

After simply setting 100% to D65, I got a very good baseline from a gamut point of view, but not so great with the greyscale, especially in the low end (it was better without adjusting 100% white to D65). As I don't have the time at the moment to dive into the Autocal, or to run full 3D LUTs, I decided as the display tracks remarkably well to run just a Lightning LUT in Calman (around 10 minutes, only 101 points). This gave excellent results, near perfect greyscale, saturation, and colorchecker SG (average dE 0.6, max dE 1. 8)  . Again, all the measurements are posted in the advanced section.



[Note for MadVR users, or those wondering why I use a gamma of 2.2 in a dedicated room, others please skip: MadVR expects a gamma target of 2.2 for it's LUT input, so that's what I use to make before/after measurements more easily comparable. But you can set the display gamma to any value, as long as you set the target for the LUT to 2.2. If you don't use a 3D LUT, you simply have to specify to MadVR which gamma/gamut the display is calibrated to, and provided it's accurate, madVR will deliver PQ, irrespective of the display baseline. So it shouldn't make any difference if you calibrate the display to 2.2 or 2.4, the results out of madVR should be the same, again as long as the display calibration is indeed tracking what you tell madVR it is. The output is PQ, which is absolute, not relative. The PQ result therefore looks like a 2.4 gamma in SDR, so perfect for my dedicated room.


Content watched
All the content I watched and on which I based these first impressions was HDR content from UHD Bluray, from my HTCP with madVR. This is the best source at the moment, and madVR's dynamic tonemapping is simply the best way to watch HDR content that I know of currently, especially for projectors. Even its live algo has made tremendous progress over the last few weeks, so I thought it would be the best way to evaluate the projector's potential. When I find the time, I will watch content from my UHD Bluray player and comment on the new JVC tonemapping, but that was not my priority as I wanted to share these first impression quickly. This was with madVR's latest test build.

I watched UHD Blurays that I am very familiar with, and have watched both on the JVC RS500 from the UB900, then using custom curves, then using MadVR. I had about 100nits recently in HDR (my rs500 had about 3000 hours on the clock). The rs2000, after calibration, has 120nits (around 40fL), which is nice but doesn't make a huge difference. Anything above 100nits (around 30fL) is great for properly tonemapped content, and can be very good even down to 60nits (20fL). Below that, it's still nice but you need *very* good tonemapping to get decent results, especially with darker scenes/titles.

Film content watched included clips Lucy, Pacific Rim, Mad Max Fury Road, John Wick 2, The Shallows, Mission Impossible - Fall Out, The Revenant, The Meg, and a few others.

I'll try to report on SDR and 3D when I find the time.


Overall impressions:
From every single aspect of picture performance (except native on/off and absolute black floor), this rs2000 is a very significant improvement.

The rs500 was a very good projector already, especially with custom curves and then madVR, but it's no match for the rs2000, even with the loss of on/off, except on fade to black.

When watching good 4K content from Lucy, or the imax sequences in MI, or about any of the films I listed above, the uptick is significant to very significant.

The increased native resolution is clearly visible at 1 screen width. There is a lot more detail, and the picture is much calmer. This is especially visible on scenes where there are fine textures (sand in the opening sequence from Mad Max for example). e-shift does a great job on the older models, at least on my rs5000, but there is bit of added "noise", especially when the film has a strong film grain, such as Mad Max or the 35mm sequences of MI: Fall Out. There, the sky, the clouds, the skin shows with a lot less added noise. We get the film grain (which I like) and only the film grain. This is for me a very significant improvement, and it was one of the few issues with the rs500. That's gone!

The drop in native contrast (from around 40,000:1 native on the rs5000 is this calibration to 30,000:1) isn't visible to me with most content, especially hHDR content, unless I'm watching star fields or a fade to black. There is a lot of contrast in the picture (I don't know if the ANSI contrast is increased or not, but it doesn't seem worse than on the rs500, that's for sure). For example, the scenes at the hotel in Lucy with the bad guys in dark suits and the very bright lights, or the opening sequence of John Wick 2, provide an amazing perceived contrast, and very deep, very inky black. Once we can use the DI, this gap should get even closer and improve the darker scenes.

The black bars are not inky black of course, but they were not with the rs500 either. I use manual masking on my 16/9 screen, as I shift the picture to the top of the screen and I place a single mask at the bottom (I have two, one for 2.35, one for 2.40 A/R). This definitely helps increase perceived contrast, but I did all my testing without this masking and the black bars were not objectionable.

Color looked fantastic, well saturated without excess, very natural. Again, a big uptick to my rs500, although I could only cover around 90% of P3 at 3,000 hours, so I couldn't compare with new.

Shadow detail was excellent, even with brightness at -2 for max contrast. It was improved further at -1, with a very minimal hit to black floor/contrast. After watching both, I prefer -2.

It's really the first time for me that I had this "looking through a window" feeling that owners of projectors that I can't justify buying keep mentioning. In many cases, breathtaking.

In fact, I quickly had to mute the sound when watching the clips, because watching these films, that I know very well, on this projector, made me want to watch them all over again. :)

My main issue with the rs2000 is the DI, which I use only on Auto2. It does produce less pumping (for example with opening/end credits), but there are two main problems with it:

1) There are still some gamma artifacts in tricky situations, such as the underground scenes in MI:Fall Out at around 00:05:57. The DI makes a real mess of the car headlights, turning them into big blotches, instead of the well-delineated outlines that you get without the DI.

2) There is a strong yellow tint caused by the DI when the picture comes out of black. This is very visible for example at the beginning of Mad Max Fury Road, after the Mad Max Logo when we cut to Furiosa's neck.

I'm sure the second issue is a bug that will be fixed by JVC (they are aware and apparently a new f/w should land next month).

For the first issue, if they can't resolve situations like the MI:Fallout, I would like to see an Auto 3 mode that would only have an effect on fade to black, be faster than auto 2 and would have zero gamma manipulation whatsoever. The current Auto 2 is much slower than on the rs500 (it takes around 4 seconds for it to close fully) and it doesn't close down as much, which means that the black floor remains quite high. For example, with the rs500, I could reach up to 500,000:1 dynamic contrast and more (calibrated to D65), but on the rs2000 the absolute maximum dynamic contrast I could measure is 235,000:1 in high bright (uncalibrated).

As with former models, there is no difference between auto1 and auto2 regarding contrast measurements, auto1 only has a more aggressive gamma manipulation.  The ceiling is set with the manual iris, so doesn't change much between manual, auto1 and auto2. Auto only changes the black floor.


Conclusion
I did all the measurements first because apart from the need to have a calibrated picture, I know that if I start to watch content with a new projector (provided it's a good one!) I won't ever take the time to measure. This is exactly what happened with the rs2000!

I have kept my rs500 because I was thinking I could run a dual projector setup, with the rs500 for SDR rec-709 content and the rs2000 for 4K HDR content. Not going to happen. :) I'm going to keep the rs500 as a backup projector, possibly to tie me over in between projectors, but I don't plan to use it, even with SDR content. In low lamp, with the iris closed to -12 to get 60nits, and especially when we'll be able to use the dynamic iris on the rs2000, there is really no need to keep the rs500 active.

The rs2000 throws by far the best PQ I've seen in my cinema room. It's very film-like, has great contrast and looks significantly better than our local cinema (proving that size isn't everything).

So the rs500 going in semi-retirement, and I'm going to enjoy my rs2000 a lot. If you don't hear from me for a while, don't worry, that's because I'm watching movies!
Title: Feedback to JVC / Suggested improvements
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:26:43 AM
Here is a list of suggestions for future versions that would significantly improve the use of the software.
Feel free to contribute if you have any (reasonable) suggestion. I'll try to get this to JVCs through my contacts once we've gathered enough feedback.

Here are some less essential improvements that would help with calibration in general:

Here are a few improvements to the PJ f/w that would improve usability/performance:
Title: Basic: How does the JVC Autocal work?
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:26:49 AM
The software uses internal patterns in the projector and one or more meter(s) connected to a desktop/laptop (PC or Mac running Bootcamp or a Windows VM) using an ethernet connection.

I allows to calibrate gamma (gamma calibration) as well as white point and gamut primaries (color calibration). It also allows to create/import/export custom color profiles, save/restore user modes/settings, as well as to do manual gamma adjustments (12-points). It also creates a backup of the factory settings before saving the first calibration.

For a detailed description and before asking any question, please read the user manual (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000_calibrationsoft.html), as well as all the posts in the relevant section (BASIC or ADVANCED). The Cine4home review (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2Fknowhow%2FJVC_DLA_X500_X700_X900_Autokalibrierung%2FJVC_X-Serie_Autokalibrierung_X500.htm) of an old version of the software shows pictures of meter placement for the Spyder as well as screenshots that are for the most parts still applicable, although the user manual has up-to-date screenshots of course. This should help you to get the general idea.

All the details specific to the V11 for the 2019 models are covered in this thread, but I'm not going to repeat what's already in the manual, so reading it should really be the first step before going any further. :)
Title: Basic: Which Meter to use?
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:26:55 AM
If you want to use the JVC Autocal V11/V12, you can use two families of meters:

The Spyder 5 Pro/Elite/Express

If you want to buy one meter to do everything with the JVC Autocal at the lowest cost, that’s the meter to get. It's not perfect, but it provides great results for a limited investment.

Its strengths are a very wide range (it can read near black, I don't know the exact spec, and up to 10,000nits!) and a fairly good accuracy, although there is some unit to unit variation. This makes it the best tool (as far a JVC Autocal supported meters are concerned) for gamma calibration. It's normally used facing the lens of the projector.

Its weakness is that it’s not always super accurate from a color point of view, especially when reading off the lens, so it’s not the best meter to use for color (gamut+white point) calibration. Its color accuracy doesn't matter as much for gamma as three curves for Red, Green and Blue are run separately and it's mostly accurate for luminance. If you have an i1pro2, or can consider getting one, that’s a better tool for the job.

The Spyder 5 Pro (S5P100)/Elite (S5EL100) are the only models officially supported in this version, because they are the only two models in the Spyder 5 range with the environment sensor used by the environment feature of the Autocal software.

In my experience, the environment feature doesn’t yield any improvements in a fully dedicated, light controlled room. So if that’s your environment, you can safely buy a Spyder 5 Express (S5X100) and save some money. But if you have a white or colored living room, you might want to get the Spyder 5 Pro to see if you can get any benefit from that feature and let us know if it’s the case.

Apart from this environment sensor in the Pro/Elite, there is no difference in the hardware. All Spyder 5 models have a tripod mount thread, so they can all be used with the JVC Autocal. The only difference is the price, and the features enabled in the software package, which is entirely irrelevant for the JVC Autocal as you won’t use the Datacolor software. You only need the driver for the Spyder 5, which is present and identical for all the models.

There is no better quality in the meters themselves either, they seem to be as good (or as bad) irrespective of the model. I tested about 7 Spyder 5 (Express, Pro and Elite) and in the end I bought a 5 Pro as it measured very close to my i1pro2 off the screen.

Any Spyder 5 should take you 90% there. If you are concerned about the last 10%, you will usually have other meters and will use another calibration software, and we’ll discuss ways to correct the errors from the Spyder 5 to get near reference results.

My advice if you want to take the easy path is to get a Spyder 5 Express if you have a dedicated room or a Spyder 5 Pro if you want to be able to use/try all the features of the JVC Autocal. I don’t see any reason to buy the Spyder 5 Elite unless you want to use the Datacolor software and can see some features of interest that are only enabled with the Elite and not the Pro or Express.

As all colorimeters using non-glass filters, they can drift over time so I recommend to use a peli-case with dessicant to store them and protect them from humidity/temperature change between calibrations.

Here is some info on the range: https://www.datacolor.com/photography-design/product-overview/spyder5-family/ (https://www.datacolor.com/photography-design/product-overview/spyder5-family/)

Note that the Spyder 4 and older are NOT compatible with the JVC Autocal V11, hence can't be used to calibrate the native 4K models.

The Spyder X Pro / Elite is very similar to the 5 except that it's about twice as fast and it reads off the screen, not off the lens. No point in buying the Elite unless you want to use a feature locked in the Datacolor software, which the JVC Autocal doesn't care about. It's still not usable for color unless its accuracy has been confirmed by a trusted meter. An i1pro2 is still recommended for color calibration, but the Spyder X Pro is a nice upgrade over the 5 for gamma calibration. You need the f/w V3.10 and the Autocal V12 (see post #2 for links) to use the Spyder X. I posted a brief report here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14262#msg14262). See also the review by Tom Huffman (owner of Chromapure) here (https://www.chromapure.com/newgear-new.asp).

The EIZO E3X seems to be a much cheaper Spyder 5 clone, but user ENT has confirmed that it doesn't work (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg13881#msg13881) with the JVC Autocal (or Calman), so sadly it's not an option here.

The x-Rite i1Pro 2 (you only need the basic version for projector/display calibration use)
The i1pro 2 is a very good, semi-pro, near reference spectroradiometer. It’s average error shouldn’t be further away from reference than 1-3dE (max), which is very good for the price. That’s the meter I use to train my BasiCColor Discus when I use different calibration software to tweak a calibration or generate a 3D LUT, and the one I plan to use for color (gamut+white point) calibration with the Autocal. It is not to be confused with the x-Rite i1 Display Pro, a colorimeter also called i1d3, which is NOT compatible with the JVC Autocal.

There is no “recalibration” for i1pros, only “recertification”. Unless you use them for professional calibrations or suspect something is wrong with them, there is no need to recertify them, as they will come back exactly the same as they left, you will just have made x-Rite a bit wealthier. Unlike colorimeters using non-glass filters, they don’t drift.

The strength of the i1pro2 is gamut/color/white point correction. Its weakness is gamma calibration (especially in the low end), as they are not really reliable below 15% white when reading a typical SDR calibration of a JVC off the screen.

It's normally used facing the screen, which is an advantage as it can take the screen into consideration in the calibration. For this reason, JVC recommends to disable the Screen Adjust parameter in the projector after a color calibration with the i1pro2.

So ideally the i1Pro 2  should only be used for color (gamut/white point) calibration only, and the Spyder 5 should only be used for gamma calibration (preferably). If you only have an i1pro2 and want to use it as the sole meter, it’s possible to use tricks to get it to read gamma (I’ll explore some of them in other posts), but its limited range (0.2cd/m2 - 1200 cd/m2) makes it difficult to use in low light or facing the lens, even with diffuser.

It’s a great near reference meter and the best meter to use with the JVC Autocal to do a color calibration (gamut primaries + white point).

If you want to save some money, there are two alternatives to the i1pro2:


Whichever meter you use, you need the OS or manufacturer's driver (Datacolor or X-rite) to be installed, not another third party (for example ArgyllCMS). Also, if the manufacturer's software loads a utility (Datacolor does), you have to prevent this from being loaded or it will conflict with the JVC Autocal when it tries to access the meter. Note that with recent versions of Windows it's not necessary to install the Datacolor software at all, as a generic Windows driver is used. A generic driver (2006) should also be loaded by windows for the i1pro2, and a more recent one (2009) can be installed by some software (Calman).
Title: Basic: Recommended settings
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:27:01 AM
[PRELIMINARY, I'll update when I've had more time with the projector (and as others offer suggestions/corrections as well) and am hoping to post detailed measurements in the advanced section shortly. All measurements mentioned were either taken with my Discus trained to my i1pro2 or with my Minolta T10. My screen is a Carada BW 88" 16/9 with an effective nominal gain (1.3 advertised). Throw distance is 3.60m, which I believe is mid-throw. More details in the advanced section.]

Based on the initial measurements of my RS2000/NX7 (see detailed data in advanced section), here are the settings I would recommend OOTB for different type of content. My unit had f/w 1.20 installed. Note: If some of what I'm suggesting doesn't apply to the RS1000/NX5 or RS3000/NX9, please let me know (by PM or in the thread) and I'll correct/update. I haven't had the time to cross-check all options, but the below should apply to the RS3000 as well and hopefully to the RS1000 too, mostly. There is unit to unit variation, so YMMV of course.


Initial Set-up
I use HDMI Standard (and force it to 16-235) to be sure that it stays that way. I make sure that all my sources send video levels. You might prefer leaving this on auto.
I leave colorspace on auto, it's usually fairly reliable.
I left contrast to zero (I clip at 235), but at least my unit seems to be raising the black floor significantly with brightness at the default of 0, which wasn't the case on previous models in my experience. This might be an attempt by JVC to improve shadow detail, but it literally kills the native and dynamic contrast. I set it to -2 for all my contrast measurements, and shadow detail is still very good that way. I might move it to -1 for day to day use, as the hit on the black floor/contrast is minimal, and shadow detail (especially level 17/68) improves a bit. But the default of 0, at least on my unit, is a big no-no. Make sure you check for this on your unit!
To test for a raised black floor visually if you don't have a meter able to read black reliably: with the DI disabled (iris on manual), display a black pattern, press the "hide" button on the remote. If you see the black floor going down, it means that brightness is too high. Unhide, lower brightness one step at a time, and repeat, until you can't see a difference when switching between hide and unhide. It's much better, in my opinion (if that's the price to pay) to not resolve level 17/68, which should be just barely visible anyway, rather than to raise the black floor and kill native and dynamic contrast. But of course, it's up to you! :)


Quick notes for nVidia HTPC/MadVR users [others please skip]: the magenta bug present on the rs500 at 4K60 8bits in 385.28 and for all 8bits resolutions in all recent drivers including the latest is gone, which is great news. This means 8bits becomes usable, and leaving MadVR dither to 8bits might be a better option than forcing 12bits out because levels are still borked in 12bits with recent  drivers. [EDIT 01/03/19: I found the reason for this: there is a bug in the new models that force YCC422 behind madVR's back when RGB 12bits is selected in the nVidia CP. The driver sends RGB 12bits, the JVC reports RGB 12bits, but in reality it's forcing YCC422. JVC knows about the bug, so hopefully they will fix it in an upcoming f/w update]. Also if you had custom refresh rates created with MadVR or CRU, they are most likely not going to be valid anymore. If you end up with a green screen with your HTPC, your projector isn't defective, this is why :) . Simply delete the custom refresh and the green screen will go away. I haven't had the time to recreate custom refresh modes or finetune settings for nVidia/MadVR, but when I do I'll try to post some advice in a MadVR section or thread, along with recommended settings for MadVR for HDR and SDR, both for playback and calibration, after the next public build of MadVR is released. In the meantime, please don't ask anything specifically about MadVR/nVidia in this thread or it will quickly become a mess and non HTPC/MadVR users will hate you. :) . There are other support threads for MadVR so please ask any questions there in the meantime.


In all modes:
I set all MPC values to zero and I switch all the CMD options to off (except in my Sports mode). This is a personal preference, but I haven't really tried the new CMD. I hear the Soap Opera Effect (that I personally dislike with film content) usually associated with CMD even on low is reduced, so I'll give it a try when I have more time. I haven't experienced the yellow tint (most likely gamma shift) reported by some when switching the DI on with these settings, so it might help if you are seeing these shifts. HDMI sync time is vastly improved over the older models (from more than 20 secs in my case to around 7 secs), so very happy with that very significant improvement. [EDIT: I did experience the yellow shift with the DI, and it's not caused by CMD options. JVC are working on a fix. Also some nasty artifacts can appear when using Motion  Enhance, so my recommendation to keep that off along with CMD stands].

Regarding the DI, it still causes some gamma artifacts in scenes where I notice this with the rs500. For example, try Mission Impossible: Fallout Out and look at the car headlights in the scene starting at 00:05:57. Beware, not everyone notices these artifacts and some are happily using the DI with a fully open iris. Once seen, you can't unsee it, so please don't look for it if you're happy with the DI generally, there is nothing wrong with that. Apparently the DI is improved in others situations. It doesn't close down as far as on my rs500 and it's much slower (up to four seconds to fully close), so it doesn't pump as much on credits, but the downside is that the fade to black is not as good. I really hope that JVC will give us an Auto 3 setting with zero gamma manipulation (none whatsoever), and a DI that would only close as much as possible on fade to black, at least twice as fast as the current Auto 2 setting. I'll post detailed brightness and contrast measurements with/without the DI in the advanced section soon [EDIT: done].

The gamma artifacts (for those who notice them) are usually worse if the manual iris is fully open. That's the setting that gives the highest dynamic contrast. The closer the manual iris, the lower the multiplier, the less artifacts. This makes them more visible in HDR for example, as most will have a manual iris more open to play HDR content than to play SDR content. So the lower the manual iris settings, the less gamma (and pumping) artifacts.

I haven't had the time to do a full analysis of the dynamic iris, but if you see issues, try either switching the DI off, or try closing the iris further. In the rs500, there is no gamma artifact with the manual iris at -15, very few with the iris at -10, more with the iris at -5 and quite a lot with the iris fully open.

If you can use low lamp and fan noise/heat isn't an issue, it could be an option to use high lamp instead with a lower manual iris setting to reach the same peak brightness. This should not only reduce the DI gamma artifacts, it should also provide more native (but less dynamic) contrast. So experimenting with these options, if available, could help.

[EDIT 16-02-19: there seems to be a bug with the DI as it causes a yellow shift, especially noticeable when coming out of black. It wasn't visible with patterns, but it's definitely there with actual content, for example at the beginning of Mad Max Fury Road, when we fade in on Furiosa's neck. For this reason, I recommend to switch the DI off until this is fixed. JVC are aware of the issue and a new f/w is expected in March].

Again, if you don't see DI artifacts, don't start looking for them and enjoy the DI. But if you do, you know what to do. :)

Recommended settings for SDR Rec-709 HD content (Bluray, HD sat, etc):
You can simply select Natural, which is very close to reference, at least on my unit (see the measurements in the advanced section).
I prefer to have a separate mode for film and TV content, so I use Natural for TV (with CMD on low, that's my sports mode) and User 1 for film content. My HD Fury Maestro switches automatically between both (I'll post details on this in the HD Fury section later).
Whether you use Natural or a user mode, what you want is Rec-709, 6500K, in low or high lamp and with the manual iris setting that gives you the brightness that you want. Make sure the CMS is off. This should give you a gamut that tracks rec-709 very closely.

The cinema mode uses the P3 filter and kind of tracks DCI-P3 (so is not meant to be used with any consumer content). It doesn't track P3 as well as the DCI-P3 color profile though, so I wouldn't use it as it is. Film is of no interest if you're after reference. If you like either of these, feel free to use them of course. I might use the cinema slot for other content selecting rec-709/6500K (3D for example) to save a user mode, but I wouldn't use it as it is. Film is not usable as it doesn't offer any standard options, so it's a lost mode as far as I'm concerned.

To get 60-70nits in rec-709 / 6500K, I had the iris at -12 on my 88" diag 16/9 Carada BW (effective nominal gain). -13 only gave me 40-50nits, and I wanted some headroom for later calibration as I'll probably lose a bit later (with the Autocal and 3D LUT). As I get above 120nits in HDR (about twice as much), that's still a nice dynamic range improvement.

For gamma, I recommend selecting a 2.4 gamma (sadly 2.3 isn't an option, only 2.2, 2.4 and 2.6 are selectable). It would be great to have 2.3 and 2.5 as well, but the gamma picture tone control allows to get there easily. [EDIT: there are more gamma options if you select custom gamma, so that's a way to select 2.3 and 2.5]. I had to raise it to +3 to roughly get 2.4 over the range as gamma was a bit too high otherwise. Then if you want BT1886, you most probably need to raise dark gamma a few clicks (+3 here). On my unit, simply moving picture tone to +3 and dark gamma to +3 gave me a very decent BT1886 curve (see the advanced section for measurements). Results could be improved further with the Autocal (manually with the 12-point parametric controls or automatically) but the results were very good after a just a few clicks on the gamma controls. There is unit to unit variation, so the above is only for information. You can try without a meter, but most likely YMMV.


Recommended settings for 3D content:
You need to set either cinema mode or a user mode to rec-709 / 6500K. You can use any lamp/iris setting you want (I would suggest high lamp fully open with the DI on). I haven't done any test on 3D yet, so I won't make more specific recommendations until I find the time to do so or others I trust post their recommended 3D settings. I would suspect that setting CMD on low should work well especially for animation if you like that in 3D. I'll update this part when I find the time to test 3D.


Recommended settings for UHD Blurays doing the tonemapping internally and sending SDR BT2020 using the full dynamic range (UB820, Oppo 203/205, etc):
I recommend selecting a user mode (I use User Mode 2 for this) and selecting the BT2020 color profile (or the HDR color profile if your model doesn't have a P3 filter, such as the N5/RS1000), 6500K color temp, gamma 2.4, iris fully open in low or high lamp, and adjust tonemapping settings on the source. I haven't tested this myself yet, but that should give the most correct results. If you are brightness starved and are happy to sacrifice saturation to brightness (100% of P3 to around 85% on my unit) to avoid losing around 20% brightness with the P3 filter, you can select the HDR color profile instead. [Edit 16-02/19: it looks like in high lamp the filter only cuts 10% (15% gain from no filter), which might explain why the numbers are all over the place. I posted detailed measurements in the contrast section showing the delta for BT2020 and HDR in high lamp, iris open, both native and dynamic.]

Note: For older models such as the UB900, I would (off memory, I haven't re-tested this recently) recommend a peak white of no more than 100nits, because I think that's what these units do. They don't use the whole dynamic range of the display/projector like the UB820/Oppos, they simply map to standard HDR, so 100nits peak for flat panels.


Recommended settings for UHD Sources expecting the display to do the tonemapping (UHD Bluray players, mediaplayers sending HDR as HDR):
I recommend using the HDR10 factory mode, and selecting the BT2020 color profile (or the HDR color profile if your model doesn't have a P3 filter, such as the N5/RS1000), 6500K color temp, PQ gamma, iris fully open (best dynamic on/off) in low lamp or high lamp. If you don't use the DI and have some brightness in reserve, you might want to lower the manual iris setting to increase native on/off and lower the black floor. The BT2020 color profile track BT2020 container saturations very well, up to almost 75% of P3. It covers 99% of P3 on my unit, due to a very slight undersaturation on red. Green and blue fully meet their targets. Of course this will vary unit per unit.

As above, if you are brightness starved (or if your model doesn't have a P3 filter), selecting the HDR color profile will give you more brightness at the expense of saturation, and the saturations will still track very well up to around 85% of P3. After that, it will clip content.  Note that I believe I'm on the low side regarding gamut cover with this unit. I would expect a typical unit to reach 100-105% of P3 with the filter and 85-90% without. We'll know more when more units are measured, but I guess this one is within specs.

There isn't much actual content at the edge of the P3 gamut currently. As saturations track BT2020 well both with the BT2020 and HDR color profiles, selecting HDR to gain brightness if you need it is a perfectly sound compromise. RS1000/NX5 owners shouldn't worry about the absence of filter, it's definitely not mandatory to get excellent results, on all models.

With the HDR color profile selected (BT2020 no filter) or on the RS1000/NX5, you should still be getting something midway between rec-709 and P3: rec-709 is around 70% of P3, HDR (no filter) is around 85% of P3, and BT2020 with the filter is close to 100% of P3, at least on my unit.

This being said, given that a wide color gamut is one of the benefits of HDR titles, I personally take all I can on the RS2000, thanks to my puny screen.

Also, as there is more and more content mastered to BT2020 and not P3, once there starts to be content beyond P3, more content will be clipped if HDR is selected.

So my advice is of course to use the HDR color profile if you can't get at least 50-75nits peak white in HDR with your current screen. I get 120nits (40fL) using BT2020 and with good tonemapping this is more than enough. In fact with good dynamic tonemapping, you can get excellent results even with only 50nits peak white in HDR.

On the other hand, if you're about to purchase a screen and want to future-proof your install, I would carefully think about its size and gain and discuss this with your installer before doing so in order to try, if you can, to get at least 75nits peak white with the filter enabled in HDR (so BT2020 color profile), and preferably around 100nits if at all possible. If bringing the seats closer is an option in your room, it might be preferable to getting the maximum screen size you can get in SDR and then have to hobble the HDR picture further than it could be. Or adding a DCR A-lens to get 35-38% more brightness using the full panel, if you don't already have one and can afford it, as the new JVCs now support it. :) .

For me a 20% hit on brightness [EDIT 16-02-19: in low lamp, it looks like the cut is only 10% in high lamp] is a price I'm very happy to pay, again with good tonemapping. Getting 50fL (150nits) peak brightness for HDR is not mandatory in my opinion, provided you are using a good (professional) calibration or dynamic tonemapping.

Those stating that 50fL is needed in HDR for projectors are either unable to calibrate the projector with good custom curves or are not familiar with what good tonemapping (especially dynamic) can do with 30fL, or even 20fL.

50fL is only needed to show shadow details with all titles if a good balance hasn't been found between brightness and highlights. It's certainly not mandatory.

For MadVR users [others please skip]:
I recommend using MadVR's pixel shader dynamic tonemapping with the JVC, as it is excellent. It provides better than HDR10+ results with HDR10 content, and will be available in the next public release of MadVR (at the moment it's only test builds in an experimental thread and there is no support there). If you do this, use the SDR BT2020 mode above and tell MadVR that your display is already calibrated to BT2020 and gamma 2.4.

If you use a MadVR 3D LUT to correct this even further, you have to use a gamma 2.2 target for the LUT (it doesn't matter what the target is on the display baseline, so feel free to use 2.4 to make it compatible with another source). Also in that case I recommend not using an SDR BT2020 LUT and targeting DCI-P3 instead to limit posterization issues. MadVR will tonemap to P3 (in fact simply discarding the BT2020 container in most cases). Again, please do *not* ask questions about MadVR in this thread. I will try to post detailed HDR calibration and playback settings for MadVR users after the next public build of MadVR is released. In the meantime, please use other MadVR support threads to ask questions.
Title: Basic: Preparation
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:27:08 AM
Based on my first attempts to use the V11 1.10 of the software and experience on previous versions, here is my advice for preparation. I'll update as others contribute and we get more experience on the process.

General

Meter(s) connection and positioning


Advanced tips
If you use more than one meter for calibration, and another software to check results, I recommend the following:

Title: Basic: Calibration
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:27:14 AM
Assuming you've followed the preparation section above (hence have read the JVC Autocal manual linked in post #2 :) ), here are my main tips for the calibration process itself:

The tl;dnr version (when all goes well)



General Tips (if you get stuck with plan A above, or would like to understand better/optimize the process)



During calibration



Title: Basic: Results and verification with another software
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:27:20 AM
Here are the results of the gamma (Spyder 5 Pro) and color (i1pro2) Autocal of my SDR WCG calibration (P3, gamma 2.2) that I use for madVR.

I made these measurements with Calman Ultimate, using the Discus profiled to my i1pro2, without making any manual changes before or after calibration. The results could be improved with manual tweaking, but I though it would be more interesting to provide the raw results, post autocal.

The before measurements show the out of the box state after around 165 hours. I had reset all my color temp, gamma manual corrections and no LUT was applied of course.

The after measurements show the improvements coming from a 33 steps gamma and a color autocal.

I think that it's very decent, given that you go from a max dE of 5.3 and average of 1.6 before calibration to a max of 2.2 and average of 0.9 with the Colorchecker SG after the gamma and color autocal.

Interesting points to note: the peak brightness improves slightly (116nits vs 115nits) and so does the contrast, as the black floor stays roughly the same. It's very marginal and mostly invisible, but it's better than the opposite.

Also the gamut cover marginally improves, from 97% to 98%. I'll take everything I can get! Red remains very slightly undersaturated at 100% sat, which shows a probable limitation of the native gamut (I'm already using the filter), although this might reach closer to 100% in high lamp, as it often the case. This is almost certainly invisible, given that not much content reaches the edge of the gamut and that all the saurations below 100% track fairly well.

However, the greyscale/gamma is not as good as what I'm used to with the RS500 and the V7 of the software, so hopefully there is some room for improvement, either in the software itself or in the way to use it. This was my first attempt, I'll edit the post as/if results improve.

I have posted in the advanced section measurements showing how a madVR 3D LUT (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10408#msg10408) can improve the results even further.
Title: Basic: Troubleshooting
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:27:55 AM
NETWORKING/TALKING TO THE PJ
Issue: The Autocal can’t talk to the projector, or it used to work, but suddenly it’s not responding. When clicking the “CHECK” button in the settings to check for network communication, it fails.
Solution 1: there is another process accessing the projector network interface through IP control, for example iRule or similar from an iOS or Android phone/tablet. Make sure there is no other software/app trying to access the JVC at the same time.
Solution 2: the network module in the projector needs to be reset. To do this, switch the projector off. Wait for the fan to go off and for the red light to stop blinking. Unplug the projector from the wall. Wait for the red light to go off. Plug the PJ back. Switch it back on. The network interface should be working again.
Solution 3: the IP address of the PJ might have changed since your last session (you can check this with the connected devices list in your router). For this reason I recommend to either use a fixed IP address, or if you use DHCP to reserve the IP address of the projector in your router using the MAC address. That way, you can still use DHCP to detect new devices but the PJ will always be allocated the same IP address.
Solution 4: the ECO mode in the projector is switched on. Switch it OFF to enable the JVC Autocal to work.
Issue: "error in detecting the model"
Solution: this means that the Autocal can find the projector, but there is either a problem with the input signal (so check that) or it detects another projector (but a different model) at the specified IP address. So check that the IP address is correct and doesn't point to your other PJ, as it happened to me. The autocal reverted to the older IP address at least once, so even if you've changed the IP address, it's worth checking that it still is the correct one.

CALIBRATION
Issue: the software seems to be talking to the Spyder 5, but there is no reading.
Solution: there is a protective cap on the Spyder 5, it kind of splits in half and opens to reveal the lens. With the cap on, it can only read black :)
Issue: After a color calibration, the log doesn't show all the greyscale points near the target (D65). How is this possible?
Solution: This is normal. While the RGB settings (offsets, gains) as well as gamma adjustments (dark, picture tone, bright) and screen type settings are *not* taken into account during the autocal, they *are* taken into account during the log. So if you want the log to show what the meter is reading, make sure your reset the RGB settings as well as gamma adjustments before calibration. Otherwise there is no harm leaving them as they are, they won't impact on the autocal itself.
Issue: After a gamma calibration, the post-cal measurement (white line) doesn't follow the reference/target (green line).
Solution: this is because the reference (green line) is always 2.2. So if you choose any other gamma target, it will be up to you to decide whether it's okay or not, which is almost impossible. Because a gamma autocal corrects all the gamma curves for a given calibration (and for all calibrations if you select the replicate all option), it is therefore recommended to select a 2.2 gamma target for a gamma calibration, so that you can see in the log if it follows the target as expected, and then select the gamma curve that you want after the autocal, as it will have been corrected too (provided you don't change the iris / lamp or filter setting).
Question: How do I know what's saved in the bakup file? Is it incremental or is it a full snapshot of the projector's state (all calibrations)?
Answer: Each backup file contains a full snapshot of all the calibrations as saved after the last saved calibration. This is discussed in more details here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14385#msg14385).

METERS
Issue: the meter (Spyder 5 or i1pro/i1pro2) isn't detected by the JVC Autocal software
Solution: Whichever meter you use, you need the manufacturer's driver (Datacolor or X-rite) to be installed, not another third party (for example ArgyllCMS). Also, if the manufacturer's software loads a utility (Datacolor does), you have to prevent this from being loaded or it will conflict with the JVC Autocal when it tries to access the meter.
Issue: the i1pro2 is detected but can't be selected (meter not found)
Solution: the i1pro2 needs to be calibrated before use. The way the JVC Autocal does it isn't obvious. You have to put the i1pro2 on its calibrating plate (the one with the white tile) before selecting it. As soon as you have selected it in the software, you have to press the button on the i1pro2 to initiate a white calibration. The i1pro2 will flash its leds and the sofware will detect it. If you don't run this calibration step, the software will return a "meter not found" message after a few seconds.

VARIOUS
Issue: no input signal error message
Solution: the Autocal software needs a valid video input to the projector (1080p or 2160p, though due to some issue 1080p might be preferable with early versions of the software) even if you’re not calibrating, so for example to load a custom gamma curve to a custom gamma slot, or to import a custom colour profile. So you need to get a source to display something that is send to the projector, even if it’s only a menu. Otherwise the software doesn’t work.
Issue: USB drive not detected during f/w upgrade attempt
Solution: if you've followed the f/w upgrade instructions (FAT32 formatted, no other files on the drive, no folder or file name change), it could be your specific USB drive that isn't detected. It happened to me, and trying a different drive worked right away.
Title: Basic: JVC HDR Auto-Tonemapping feature
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:28:06 AM
I'll report on JVC's new auto-tonemapping in more details when I've had a chance to spend some time with it. Based on the way it's supposed to work, it should be a significant improvement on previous models as it now takes into account the HDR metadata present in the content to adjust its curve according to each title. It seems to be the best OEM implementation to date for projectors, so kudos to JVC.

However, it relies on the presence of reliable metadata (which unfortunately can be wrong or missing, and I've not tested how good JVC's fallback is in that case). [EDIT: when there is no metadata, if you adjust the settings manually the PJ will remember these settings for all titles without metadata]. So I would expect its results to be incomparably better than on previous models not using custom curves, similar to UB820/Oppo 203/205, possibly on a par with older models using three good custom curves (and by this I mean really custom, not made by someone else who doesn't know the exact set-up, which includes my own downloadable curves and others) switched automatically by a Vertex/Maestro or a Radiance Pro, but inferior to good dynamic tonemapping relying on measuring each frame instead of using the metadata (MadVR, possibly the Radiance Pro when their tonamapping becomes dynamic). Again, that's just based on how it should work, not on actual observation (yet).

This being said, it's a huge improvement for the end user who doesn't want to mess with a HTPC, a Radiance Pro or custom curves, so let's thank JVC for this and by all means use it and adjust brightness to taste with the slider.
Title: Advanced: Main changes in V11 from previous versions
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:28:13 AM
[PRELIMINARY]

Main changes from V5:

Main changes from V6/V7:

Some of the above features (such as support for i1pro2) have been implemented on recent models, but I haven’t used them personally and haven’t kept track of the changes. V11 is the first version I use after V7.

As you'll see in the manual (see link in post #2), not many differences in the software itself, but I expect many differences to optimize the calibration process as the picture modes will be different, and of course the meters (Spyder 5 and i1pro 2), while already supported with the latest versions of the eshift models, are also different compared to those we used with the RSx00 in the old calibration thread (Spyder 4 on V6 and Spyder 5 on V7 only). I have both a Spyder 5 Pro and an i1pro 2 (as well as a Discus) so I plan to explore the best way to use each meter in order to get the best results, with or without additional calibration software and 3D LUTs.
Title: Advanced: Detailed Brightness Measurements
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:28:19 AM
All these brightness measurements are taken with my Minolta T10, at the screen, facing the lens.

The screen is a Carada BW 16/9 88" diag with a nominal effective gain (advertised 1.3). Throw distance is 3.6m, which I believe is around mid-throw.

I attach two files, the measurements with some details, and my notes describing each measured mode and giving a few more observations. Please read the notes before commenting :) 

Important: I’ve taken all these measurements with the panel zoomed to 16/9.

I don’t really want to have to upscale all my content to 4K (4096x2160) and prefer to use UHD (3840x2160) as it's the native resolution of most of the content I watch.

Brightness should be higher for those who can/want to use the full 17/9 panel.

I plan to zoom to the native panel and measure the difference when I find the time.


Overall my unit measures close to the specs as far as I can see, and higher than my rs500 in the same set-up, at least in raw/max brightness.

The only area where I think it might be on the low side is regarding gamut cover. As explained in the recommended settings, I would expect a typical unit to cover above 100% of P3 with the filter and around 90% of P3 without. But 20% of brightness loss is in the average from what I can read. Some report 10%, some 25%. What's always unclear is if people report how much you lose with the filter, or how much you gain without, so I report both: 20% loss with the filter, 25% gain without. it would be nice if everyone could do the same. :) 


[Edit: I measured low lamp because that's what I use myself, but it looks like in high lamp, the brightness cut with the filter is only 10% (15% gain without), for roughly the same difference in gamut cover (85% without the filter vs 100% with). So it looks like the P3 filter cuts less light in high lamp than in low lamp, but also reduces contrast a bit (24,000:1 vs 30,000:1 in BT2020)]. This might explain why the numbers are all over the place: depending on whether they report the cut or the gain, and whether this is measured in low lamp or high lamp, the difference between filter/no filter can go from 10% to 25%! :)

Oh, one last thing: please ignore the two lines at the top with "%loss". That's how I track the brightness loss for my bulb with the two modes I use most, but of course these being the initial measurements (my starting point) there is no loss and the numbers are the same.

Title: Advanced: Detailed Contrast Measurements
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:28:25 AM
All the attached on/off contrast measurements are taken with my Minolta T10, about 22” from the lens, on a tripod. The room is a fully dedicated bat loft, entirely black-velvet covered (with black carpet on the floor), 100% light controlled (black out blind, no LEDs from equipment etc). It's a black pit with zero ambient nits when the PJ is off (provided the power LED is covered with tape). When measuring contrast, the only source of light comes from the PJ lens when on (and the side vents, but thanks to their angle, none of that light hits the screen). I anticipate that it might influence ANSI contrast measurements off the lens though.

Otherwise light reflection from the screen, the seats and the side of a shelf when not covered can be an issue for measuring ANSI contrast, but not with on/off measurements. I used madTPG as a pattern generator using Calman as it’s convenient and that’s my main source anyway (my HTPC with MadVR, not patterns in Calman :)  ), so at least I’m sure that what I measure is what I watch. I have triple checked levels and everything, so there shouldn’t be any issue with this. In the past I used the JVC internal patterns for contrast measurements, but sadly it’s not possible anymore to control them with Calman.

This specific unit has a very slight bright corner in the lower left, so averaging measurements taken over the whole panel would no doubt lower the values. I don't find it a problem in normal viewing, and I'm very sensitive to bright corners. Measurements for this session were taken for the center of the panel only.

I didn’t move the meter for all the measurements as its range was enough to cover everything, given that the black floor with the DI didn’t go very low. Ideally, I’d have wanted to get a bit closer to the lens to lower the margin of error at the low end (I’m not happy with 0.04 lux for the lowest measurement, because we’re getting near the limit and a single significant digit change there makes a huge difference in the ratio) but it’s good enough for a first attempt. I usually measure on slow and wait at least 10-15 seconds for the reading to stabilize. If I find a way to place the tripod (possibly a different one) a bit closer to the lens, I might take another round. Overall I’m confident that these results are accurate (if not as far as their absolute readings, at least within the capability of the meter) because they are within 5% of those taken by the Discus in Calman (see below).

I’ve measured the most important mode for me, which is DCI-P3 with the filter in low lamp, as that's what I use with MadVR to tonemap HDR content (my UHD Blurays) to SDR on my HTPC. Note that with a consumer source you should only use a Rec-709 or BT2020 calibration, but that's a different subject. I also took a few measurements from Max Bright to get as close as possible to the specs.

A few more things to note:
As explained in the recommended settings, at least on my unit the default setting of zero for brightness was raising the black floor significantly and killing on/off and dynamic contrast. I had a brightness setting of -3 for the whole session. I know it’s obvious but please check your black floor before measuring contrast on these or you might get caught by this out of habit, as in my experience setting brightness to zero (using video levels / HDMI standard) does no raise the black floor on older models. On the rs500, I even had to raise brightness to +1 to improve shadow detail, and even that didn’t raise the black floor. So you're warned!

As you’ll see in the calibration measurements, once I’ve measured my baseline with the T10, I use my Discus trained to the i1pro2 to measure both contrast and brightness in Calman, as the discus can relatively accurately read black, even with the DI, provided a black calibration was done less than 10 minutes ago and that it’s set to high average / long integration mode. Usually the Discus is within 5% of the T10 for contrast, on the conservative side. For brightness, it’s within 10% when looking at nits numbers. That’s good enough for me given the added convenience. [Edit 15-02-19: I add some measurement of Max Bright (low and high lamp, iris open, both manual and auto2) taken with the Discus in Calman so you can compare the low lamp readings with the T10. They are almost identical for native (33,000:1) and fairly close for dynamic (200,000:1 for the Discus vs 235,000:1 for the T10). I also add measurements for BT2020 and HDR iris open (both manual and Auto2) showing that the filter cuts less light in high lamp than in low lamp and that HDR cuts some contrast as well as some saturation]

If you do measure dynamic contrast in an automated way using a calibration software and a meter able to read black reliably off the screen with a JVC (so not an i1pro2 or an i1displayPro/i1d3/C6), make sure that you increase the pattern delay. I raised my default 0.25s delay to 5s because the DI takes about 4s to fully close, which is a lot slower than on the older models (at least twice). So you want to give the time to get the blackest off reading.

Also the DI doesn’t close down as much as with the older models, so the dynamic contrast on this RS2000 isn’t as high as on my RS500, where I would get up to 500,000:1 and more dynamic. Another point of comparison, in this same DCI-P3 mode (low lamp, iris fully open, filter on), I would get close to 40,000:1 native on/of with the rs500. I get 30,000:1 on/off with the rs2000, which isn't too bad and again kind of correlates with the specs (about 30% less native on/off). Black floor is higher though because I had 100nits with the rs500 (at 3,000 hours) and I'm getting 120nits with the RS2000 (new lamp). The panel size (16/9 vs 17/9) might also play a part in this difference, as I didn't use the full panel for these measurements, like with the brightness measurements.

So that’s my main issue with contrast on this unit. I think my native is fairly close to specs given that I’m at mid-throw, it looks like the 80,000:1 max native should be met in long throw (I’m around 70,000:1 native in max bright, which I believe is the mode used to get to the specs), but the slow speed of the dynamic iris and the more open fully closed position leads to ok but not great dynamic contrast numbers, up to 235,000:1 again in max bright, with a multiplier above 7.

I have no idea how they achieve the 800,000:1 dynamic specs for the rs2000, as this would mean a multiplier of 10 on the manual iris fully closed specs, which has the lowest multiplier. Unless they mix one number from one mode with another from another mode. For example, if I calculate the on/off using the brightest on (23,600 lux max bright) and the dimmest off (0.04 lux low lamp auto2), then I get 590,000:1, which would be close to the specs at mid-throw, and would tally with a multiplier of 10 applied to my native with the iris fully closed. But I sure hope that this is not what JVC does to achieve this 800,000:1 dynamic contrast, as it wouldn't make sense. Anyone knows, please pitch in.

As with the older models, using auto1 or auto2 doesn’t make any difference regarding contrast. They only differ in the degree of aggressiveness of the gamma processing in each mode, auto1 being more aggressive than auto2. I measured both though to give you an idea of the repeatability of the T10, but I only use auto2 so in the future I’ll probably only mention/measure auto2.

Also as with older models, the highest native contrast is obtained with the manual iris fully closed, and the highest dynamic contrast with the iris fully open. The dynamic iris, from a contrast point of view, only changes the black (off), the peak (on) is defined by the manual iris setting and should remain roughly the same. You’ll see more measurements between low lamp and high lamp in the calibration measurements, but as expected there isn’t big difference between high lamp and low lamp contrast wise. The filter, on the other hand, seems to have more of an impact.

I still see some gamma artifacts in content that used to cause gamma artifacts in the rs500 (see recommended settings for details).

So as I noted in my suggestions to JVC at the beginning of the thread and in recommended settings, I really hope that if JVC can’t do better regarding gamma artifacts, they will give us an auto 3 mode that would have zero gamma manipulation and would only kick in on fade to black. I would want it faster (at least twice) and closing down at far down as possible, ideally down to where the older models did, which is much closer, so that we can get a better fade to black, especially in HDR where we need it most due to the raised black floor with the iris fully open.

ANSI contrast (added on March 09, 2019):

I measured ANSI contrast (Greg Rogers modified) at the lens as 206:1 (iris fully open, so max for ANSI) at 110 hours last week. It's on the low side, but seems to be close to what others (Ekki, Chad B) have measured on various units. I triple checked because I was a bit disappointed, especially following rumours at CEDIA of 50% improvements on ANSI contrast compared to eshift models, but that's as good as it gets here, with this RS2000 unit.

Measurements have in fact improved, I measured only 190:1 at 30 hours, and waited until the unit settled at 110 hours to retake measurements. I haven't seen any measurement significantly above 200:1 on any of the new models.

This wasn't with a "tube" but with a black velvet tent stopping any light to get to the screen and back. I was in full ninja suit, including black gloves (yes, not wearing black gloves does impact ANSI contrast measurements negatively, especially at the lens). The T10 was around 18" from the lens for these ANSI contrast measurements to maximize the readings. Any closer and the measurements would go down due to the light from the white squares polluting the sensor during black readings. To compare, my rs500 measured 247:1 when new in the same room and same position.

I measured around 194:1 ANSI for the RS2000 at the screen, which confirms the excellent performance of my bat loft as it's a small hit (around 5%) from the room compared to the reading at the lens.

I measured quickly a single square with the iris fully closed, both at the lens and at the screen, to show the delta (that's the results on the left). The hit when closing the iris is small, which is good news. This is a single square (I selected one in the mid-range of my ANSI measurements, neither the lowest nor the highest), so just an indication really.

Full results (on/off and ANSI contrast measurements) in the attached updated chart.

[EDIT: please don't pay attention to the 2% error accuracy margins, they are not relevant for the Minolta T10].
Title: Advanced: Factory Color profile measurements
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:28:31 AM
Reserved [Under Construction]
Title: Advanced: Detailed pre/post measurements for SDR Rec-709
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:28:39 AM
OOTB and basic Rec-709 calibration measurements at 30 hours:

I attach a ZIP with measurements of my rec-709 mode (User1, Rec-709 color profile, 6500K, low lamp, no filter, iris -12). These were taken at about 30 hours on the lamp.

I get 60nits with the iris at -12, and this leaves some headroom for calibration as I like to end up with 50-55nits calibrated.

All measurements taken with my Discus trained to my i1pro2. The Discus used under the right conditions reads very close to my Minolta T10, so I trust it even for black/contrast measurements. For these, I used the i1pro2 on its own for all gamut and color volume measurements, and the Discus trained to it for gresycale and contrast. Don't pay attention to the meter on the screenshots, I don't take the screenshots at the same time as the measurements, so either meter could be selected then.

The only thing I did before taking these is set 100% white to D65. I then selected a gamma 2.4 preset and adjusted picture tone gamma to +3 and dark gamma to +3 to get a rough BT1886 curve (specific to my unit, so unlikely to work the same on yours). I never use the CMS.

These pre-cal measurements are taken before any Autocal is run. When I use Autocal I usually don't bother with picture tone, I just set dark gamma afterwards, but I wanted to show what you could get in 5mn without using the Autocal.

Of course gamma and RGB balance could be made better adjusting offsets and/or using the 12-point gamma controls in the Autocal software if you don't like the idea of running the Autocal itself.

I include gamut saturations, greyscale (before and after dark/picture tone gamma adjustments), contrast at -12 with iris set to manual and auto2, and color volume measurements. I also add for comparison a measurement of the Natural user preset, which is very close to my user1 and tracks very well but for some reason is a bit less saturated (96.84% of rec-709 gamut cover vs close to 97.98%). I'll add a colorchecker in the next set.

I think they are very close to perfect for an OOTB state. Certainly good enough for me to watch some content before running an Autocal and a 3D LUT. Kudos to JVC for delivering such a good calibration OOTB. 100% of rec-709 gamut volume, with near perfect saturations and very decent greyscale, I'm happy with that for now. :)

I'll post measurements after the Autocal once I've had a chance to play with it.
Title: Advanced: Detailed pre/post measurements for HDR BT-2020 (BT2020 with filter)
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:29:04 AM
No detailed measurements yet but I thought I'd post gamut and brightness/contrast measurements for the BT2020 Color Preset (BT2020 with the filter), so you can compare gamut cover increase and brightness loss compared to the HDR preset (without the filter).

As expected, the BT2020 profile tracks BT2020 saturations, as BT2020 is the container for consumer sources/content.

I measured P3 within BT2020 to give a better idea of how it tracks P3 content, which is the most common at the moment.

I did these measurements in high lamp because historically that's what gives the largest gamut cover (and that's usually what people use for HDR content).

Using the filter cuts around 10% of brightness (164nits vs 183nits without the filter) in order to get close to full P3 cover (99% with the filter, 85% without). The contrast is also higher in BT2020 than in HDR (around 30,000:1 vs 24,000:1). I posted all the new contrast and brightness measurements in the contrast section.

So interestingly, it looks like the filter cuts less light in high lamp (10% cut / 15% gain) than in low lamp (20% cut / 25% gain), and increases the contrast compared to HDR.

I would think that my unit is at the low end regarding gamut cover, I would expect a bit above 100% with the filter and around 90% without.
Title: Advanced: Detailed pre/post measurements for HDR BT-2020 (HDR profile no filter)
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:29:13 AM
No detailed measurements yet but I thought I'd post gamut and brightness/contrast measurements for the HDR Color Preset (BT2020  without the filter), so you can compare gamut cover decrease and brightness gain compared to the BT2020 preset (with the filter).

As expected, the HDR profile tracks BT2020 saturations, as BT2020 is the container for consumer sources/content.

I measured P3 within BT2020 to give a better idea of how it tracks P3 content, which is the most common at the moment.

Losing the filter bring back around 15% of brightness (183nits vs 164nits) at the cost of 15% of saturation (99% of P3 with the filter, 85% without).

I would think that my unit is at the low end, I would expect a bit above 100% with the filter and around 90% without.
Title: Advanced: Detailed pre-post measurements for SDR DCI-P3
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:29:19 AM
OOTB and basic DCI-P3 calibration measurements at 30 hours:

I attach a ZIP with measurements of my DCI-P3 mode (User3, DCI-P3 color profile, 6500K, low lamp, with filter, iris open). These were taken at about 30 hours on the lamp.

I get 120 nits with the iris open and the filter, which is more than enough for HDR content tonemapped by MadVR, as this is what I use this calibration for. It's relevant even for non-MadVR users because it shows what the color volume is for P3 content when using a BT2020 or HDR colour profile. I'd get around 150nits (25% increase) without the filter, but I only get 85% of P3 that way (vs 97%) so I prefer using the filter. The filter cuts around 20% of brightness on my unit.

As usual, all measurements taken with my Discus trained to my i1pro2. The Discus used under the right conditions reads very close to my Minolta T10, so I trust it even for black/contrast measurements. For these, I used the i1pro2 on its own for all gamut and color volume measurements, and the Discus trained to it for gresycale and contrast. Don't pay attention to the meter on the screenshots, I don't take the screenshots at the same time as the measurements, so either meter could be selected then.

The only thing I did before taking these is set 100% white to D65. I then selected a gamma 2.2 preset (as this will be the target of my MadVR 3D LUT). I didn't adjust anything except the gains in the 6500K preset. I never use the CMS. It took 3 minutes of adjustments (if that) to get these results.

These pre-cal measurements are taken before any Autocal is run.

Of course gamma and RGB balance could be made better adjusting offsets and/or using the 12-point gamma controls in the Autocal software if you don't like the idea of running the Autocal itself.

I include gamut saturations, greyscale, contrast with the iris set to manual and auto2, and color volume measurements. I'll add a colorchecker in the next set.

I'm happy with the gamut saturations and the greyscale, I think it's very good for an OOTB after just a white point adjustment. I would have liked red to go a bit further, but it seems to be a common occurrence on the new models to have red (instead of green and cyan on older models) falling a bit short.

Still, 97% of P3 gamut cover and 99% of P3 color volume, with saturations tracking very well, I'm happy with this. :)

I'll post measurements after the Autocal once I've had a chance to play with it.


Measurements after Calman Lightning LUT

I was hoping that I could live with my quick and dirty basic calibration for a while but the greyscale errors in the low end were too visible. I remeasured today and they were above 6dE.

As I don't have the time at the moment to dive into the Autocal, I decided to run a Lightning LUT with Calman (101 points, it takes only around 10 minutes) as the gamut is very linear. In the past, that gave me very good results when the baseline is linear. So when my rs500 was under 1000 hours, that's what I used. After that, I had to use progressively larger LUT as it became less linear as I put 3000 hours on the clock.

Measurements are much better, as expected, especially for greyscale. I ran a colorchecker SG (with/without the MadVR Lightning LUT), and I add updated before/after for today's session. I try not to run a colorchecker SG if I try to avoid a proper calibration to not influence me, but this time it was quite obvious a bit more was needed.

I haven't had a chance to check for visual issues (especially posterization near black or near the edge of the gamut), but I'll report on that later if I find any.
Title: Advanced: Checking a Spyder 5 for accuracy
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:29:26 AM
Reserved [Under Construction]

For now see this post (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg12267#msg12267).
Title: Advanced: Correcting the Spyder's errors with a reference meter
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:29:32 AM
Reserved [Under Construction]
Title: Advanced: Using Custom Color profiles (with profiles to download)
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:29:45 AM
Reserved [Under Construction]
Title: Advanced: Manual Gamma Calibration
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:30:11 AM
Reserved [Under Construction]

For now see Sirmaster's post here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14303#msg14303).
Title: Advanced: Using Custom Gamma Curves
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:30:17 AM
Reserved [Under Construction]
Title: Advanced: Using a Vertex/Maestro and the JVC Macro feature
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:30:24 AM
Reserved [Under Construction]
Title: Advanced: Using a 3D LUT for Reference Calibration after the Autocal
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:30:30 AM
Here are my results if I apply a madVR 3D LUT on top of the calibration obtained after the JVC Autocal (see baseline here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10391#msg10391)). You don't need to run the autocal beforehand, but I like running the autocal and applying a LUT on top because it allows me to use the autocaled calibration with my non-HTPC sources, and apply the madVR LUT on top for HTPC content.

The results are near reference (well, within the error margin of my i1pro2, which hopefully and visually should be below 3dEs).

At the moment, because the baseline is so linear, I can create my 3D LUT with a very quick profile (Lightning LUT, 101 points in Calman Ultimate).

After a while, I might have to run a larger LUT. When I get there, I'll compare results between Lightspace and Calman. I had issues with both with my slightly undersaturated rs500, so I can't recommend either. But with a nearly fully saturated baseline such as this, I would expect to get good results from either software. I would also include DisplayCAL as an option, because I got very good results with it. Unfortunately, it doesn't support the Discus, otherwise I would most certainly be using it more regularly.

I'll update this post when/if I make an attempt with larger LUTs, but given the current results my motivation to burn hours of bulb time running larger profiles is very low. :)

Again, the before measurements are available in the basic - calibration (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10391#msg10391) section. You would get the same results with a LUT run from the before calibration state, because it's already very linear., at least for now at 165 hours.
Title: Reserved
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:30:46 AM
Reserved
Title: Reserved
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:30:52 AM
Reserved
Title: Advanced: To Do List and Various Notes
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2018, 07:30:58 AM
Reserved
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 for RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 & calibration tips
Post by: bmoney on November 02, 2018, 05:53:57 AM
thats alot of reserved!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 for RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 & calibration tips
Post by: Manni on November 02, 2018, 02:10:56 PM
thats alot of reserved!

You'll soon understand why :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 for RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 & calibration tips
Post by: Javs on November 02, 2018, 06:04:10 PM
Just enter 00000000 as the serial to download the software :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 for RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 & calibration tips
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 02, 2018, 06:49:04 PM
I just used an older models serial number and that worked too.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 for RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 & calibration tips
Post by: Manni on November 03, 2018, 06:38:35 AM
Yes, or any of the serial numbers shown during any of the shows... :) Most of them work, that's why I said "a serial number"  ;).

I've added a list of suggestions/improvements to send to JVC here: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10384#msg10384

I'll update when we can actually work with V11 on the new models, but I thought it would be good to have a starting point. I will try to add a bit more content in the thread over the next few weeks, but the fun will really start when the units land.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 for RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 & calibration tips
Post by: Manni on November 03, 2018, 12:48:14 PM
I've edited the first post and started to populate the headings to most of the reserved posts, so that people get an idea of why I reserved so many. :)

I've also listed in post #2 an index of the topics I plan to cover and I've added the links to the couple of posts with actual content. I'll add the links as the content goes in.

There won't be much more posted until we get the units and we can start playing with them, but that should give an idea of the plan. Please let me know if you think I've forgotten a key aspect that you think should be covered.

There might be a few MadVR related sections at the end (only re HDR and calibration settings), but I don't want to have  the thread cluttered with MadVR related posts because not everyone is interested in that, so I'm not listing these topics yet. It might be better to create a separate thread for that. We'll see.

I'll post whenever I add new content, but I don't expect much to happen from my side until December now.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 for RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 & calibration tips
Post by: Manni on November 03, 2018, 03:12:32 PM
Having just said that, I thought that some might want to get a meter before the PJ shows up so they can hit the ground running, even if an Autocal isn't usually necessary with a new PJ. Anyway, here you go:

Which meter to use with V11?: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10387#msg10387

Of course this preliminary advice is based on what we know about each meter (I own a Spyder 5 Pro that I use with V7 and an i1pro2 that I've used for years as a reference meter with various calibration software) and their use in previous Autocal versions. If you want certitude, wait a few weeks until we can test them with the new V11 and the RS2000.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 for RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 & calibration tips
Post by: Manni on November 04, 2018, 05:47:19 AM
Also added a preliminary Troubleshooting section, as I don't expect it to be very different with V11.

https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10392#msg10392
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 for RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 & calibration tips
Post by: Javs on November 05, 2018, 03:44:42 PM
I sure hope this Autocal works well and reliably...

The Autocal v9 for the X9500 is severely dodgy, its VERY difficult to actually get it to calibrate colour properly at all without wildly undershooting the gamut, I dont even use it for that anymore, I actually found it better to load in a custom gamut taking into account the Spyder errors using the Excel method and then once I upload it, dont dare calibrate it with Autocal, but use the CMS to slightly tweak the tracking from there. Its OK for Gamma, though there was a bug with v1.0 where it would corrupt gamma measurements and have severe red push due to 'trash' frames flashing before gamma readings were done and actually corrupting the readings. They fixed that though luckily!

Autocal v10 was a lot better, I was able to calibrate the profiles properly first time and get accurate tracking on the X9900. The X7000 was a dream too, probably by far the easiest actually. The X9500 is just a pig to use Autocal on. Then again, could be just my unit...
Title: Re: Basic: Which Meter to use?
Post by: bobof on November 12, 2018, 04:05:45 AM
[PRELIMINARY]
>snip<
The x-Rite i1Pro 2 (you only need the basic version for projector/display calibration use)
The i1pro 2 is a very good, semi-pro, near reference spectroradiometer. It is not to be confused with the x-Rite i1 Display Pro, also called i1d3, which is NOT compatible with the JVC Autocal. It’s average error shouldn’t be further away from reference than 1dE (max), which is very good for the price. That’s the meter I use to train my BasiCColor Discus when I use different calibration software, and the one I plan to use for color (gamut+white point) calibration with the Autocal.

>snip<

  • The older i1pro (preferably rev.B-D), that isn’t officially supported and has a smaller range (0.2-300nits). Still it can be used with the Autocal software, but I would only recommend it for a color calibration (gamut + white point), not for a gamma calibration. It also needs an initialization more often than the i1pro2, which makes it more annoying to use. See https://xritephoto.com/documents/literature/en/L7-518_i1PRO-i1PRO2_en.pdf for the differences between the two versions.

Have you got a source for the quoted accuracy for i1pro2?  For what it is worth I don't think there is any particularly good information out there with respect to the accuracy of the i1pro2 for projection or displays - I've seen a couple of sets of data for single meters (including a comparison by Tom Huffman of a single meter against several display techs).  X-rite only quote reflective (paper) reading accuracy in their certification, so even if you have it recertified it doesn't tell you anything about display measurements.

Going way back, the only really good group-test I've seen of meters, looking at many samples of each, was this one from Dry Creek Photo which included the previous generation i1pro meter:
https://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/MonitorCalibrationHardware.html (https://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/MonitorCalibrationHardware.html)
They measured mean difference against a "true reference" spectro; a significant batch of i1pro units had a mean dE2000 of 4.3 for standard gamut CCFL LCD and 2.3 for wide gamut RGB LED backlight.  Average dE2000 between units was 2.0 and max 3.5.

I'd dearly love to see such a comparison of i1pro2 units; there are several changes which claim benefits (such as the wavelength calibration) but I've not really seen anything.  Most of the reviews of these devices tend to be from folk just looking at the functionality.
Title: Re: Basic: Which Meter to use?
Post by: Manni on November 12, 2018, 04:51:28 AM

Have you got a source for the quoted accuracy for i1pro2?  For what it is worth I don't think there is any particularly good information out there with respect to the accuracy of the i1pro2 for projection or displays - I've seen a couple of sets of data for single meters (including a comparison by Tom Huffman of a single meter against several display techs).  X-rite only quote reflective (paper) reading accuracy in their certification, so even if you have it recertified it doesn't tell you anything about display measurements.

Going way back, the only really good group-test I've seen of meters, looking at many samples of each, was this one from Dry Creek Photo which included the previous generation i1pro meter:
https://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/MonitorCalibrationHardware.html (https://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/MonitorCalibrationHardware.html)
They measured mean difference against a "true reference" spectro; a significant batch of i1pro units had a mean dE2000 of 4.3 for standard gamut CCFL LCD and 2.3 for wide gamut RGB LED backlight.  Average dE2000 between units was 2.0 and max 3.5.

I'd dearly love to see such a comparison of i1pro2 units; there are several changes which claim benefits (such as the wavelength calibration) but I've not really seen anything.  Most of the reviews of these devices tend to be from folk just looking at the functionality.

Yes, I sent you that link to the drycreekphoto test when you were asking about the Discus :)

I haven't seen any third party assessment of the i1pro2, I can only say that it's pretty close to reference. Whether it's 1dE or 3dE, I have no idea, but it's below the visible threshold for most of us, unless it's defective. I have no reasons to believe that the dE for the i1pro2 should be lower than for the i1pro, but as I haven't seen any trustworthy 3rd party review I put the manufacturer specs. [EDIT: I changed the 1dE in my post to 1-3dE as it's more likely to be closer to reality].

My point is that unless you are a pro, it's hard to justify better than the i1pro2. And recertifying it is pointless unless it's defective, as they never adjust anything in a recertification. They measure and send you the measurements. If it's within specs, that's all they do. If it's out of specs, it's defective and you have to pay for repair. Needless to say that I don't recertify my i1pro2 anymore...

I think the biggest point against the i1pro is the smaller range with a peak of 300nits, rather than the accuracy. Apart from that, they are both "good enough" to be used as a near-reference meter to calibrate a decent colorimeter. I don't use them for anything else than that, but I'll try a few things when I get the rs2000.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 for RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 & calibration tips
Post by: bobof on November 12, 2018, 05:51:43 AM
Yes, I sent you that link to the drycreekphoto test when you were asking about the Discus :)

I haven't seen any third party assessment of the i1pro2, I can only say that it's pretty close to reference. Whether it's 1dE or 3dE, I have no idea, but it's below the visible threshold for most of us, unless it's defective. I have no reasons to believe that the dE for the i1pro2 should be lower than for the i1pro, but as I haven't seen any trustworthy 3rd party review I put the manufacturer specs. [EDIT: I changed the 1dE in my post to 1-3dE as it's more likely to be closer to reality].

My point is that unless you are a pro, it's hard to justify better than the i1pro2. And recertifying it is pointless unless it's defective, as they never adjust anything in a recertification. They measure and send you the measurements. If it's within specs, that's all they do. If it's out of specs, it's defective and you have to pay for repair. Needless to say that I don't recertify my i1pro2 anymore...

I think the biggest point against the i1pro is the smaller range with a peak of 300nits, rather than the accuracy. Apart from that, they are both "good enough" to be used as a near-reference meter to calibrate a decent colorimeter. I don't use them for anything else than that, but I'll try a few things when I get the rs2000.
Indeed, I'd still love to know how that Discus review worked - they must have been testing one of the (few?) displays it tracks well without spectro profiling as I've had no such luck on any consumer display with it without profiling.

I don't think x-rite spec 1dE anywhere for displays WRT reference; the 1dE spec is for reference ceramic tiles measured using the inbuilt lamp, and of course that has the benefit of being able to be calibrated (I believe) against the white tile you put under it at calibration time.

I think even if you are a pro I'm getting less and less convinced these days(!); getting very sceptical in my old age.
I've had an i1pro rev D,  still have an i1pro2 and now have a JETI 1201 which I'll probably get recalibrated soon as it was a used bargain.  3-4dE between the white measures of these 3 meters seems common for me, which probably puts them all around the 1-3dE circle around reference (perhaps).

Of course the specs for these meters are (like most specs) not that helpful.  Even on the JETI the spec is x,y +/- 0.002 @ Illuminant A (x 0.4476,y 0.4075).  Worst case that is around 2dE2000, but the same margin of error at D65 100 nits white (who knows, it's unspecified) could be up to 11dE(!). 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 for RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 & calibration tips
Post by: LovingDVD on February 06, 2019, 07:53:44 PM
Manni - Great job with this thread so far. I'm looking forward to your analysis!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 for RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9 & calibration tips
Post by: Manni on February 07, 2019, 01:16:14 AM
Thanks for your kind words Ric!
 
UPS says it should be delivered on Tuesday, so the fun here should start next week :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: David Vaughn on February 07, 2019, 08:37:36 AM
Great thread Manni. I've bookmarked it!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 07, 2019, 09:22:55 AM
Hi Dave, thanks for the kind words, looking forward to seeing you here :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: bobof on February 07, 2019, 03:48:04 PM
@Manni - when you get your unit and you start playing with the custom profiles, can you have a look at how linear they are?  You basically take a small profile (say 5^3), and create a custom colourspace in Lightspace with the measured RGBW extents as the gamut definition, and then generate a Peak Chroma LUT from that profile into the custom colourspace.  With a perfectly linear profile you'd end up supposedly looking at a perfect cube.

I've tried this on my X7900 with REC709F, REC709NF and then the built in reference profile with a 3DLUT loaded.  Only the reference profile with 3DLUT seems to profile back to a rough cube; the two custom profiles loaded both have what seem to be significant non-linearities.  I'd be interested to know if you see similar behaviour, and if you do what you think of it.  Cheers!

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 14, 2019, 10:10:05 AM
Okay, let the fun begin :)

I've spend much of the last 48 hours setting up, calibrating and running measurements on my new RS2000, which is sitting on a shelf below my RS500. I'll swap them once I've found the time to measure ANSI contrast in its current (temporary) position.

I've posted some preliminary recommended settings and observations here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10388#msg10388) and detailed brightness and contrast measurements will follow shortly, as well as out of the box calibration measurements.

I'll post some first impressions here or in the owners' thread when I've had more time to watch content. I wanted to calibrate the beast (even minimally) and find the best settings before doing so properly.

Enjoy! :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Ralph P. on February 14, 2019, 11:55:24 AM
Greetings,


Thanks as always Manni!




Regards,



Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 14, 2019, 12:04:38 PM
Greetings,


Thanks as always Manni!




Regards,


And you're always welcome Ralph :)


I've just posted detailed brightness measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10395#msg10395), with contrast measurements to come soon.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: bobof on February 14, 2019, 12:30:48 PM
Nice one Manni, shapping up well! :)  Sounds like you've got a good one so far. 


Did you see Datacolor have launched a new meter - SpyderX? 
https://spyderx.datacolor.com/about-spyderx/
There are marketing claims around for improvements in accuracy and better low light capabilities.
I know JVC typically haven't supported new meters in released product.  However I do wonder if getting support (seeing as it is provided by an external DLL) might be as simple as switching the DLL for the one for the new meter.


Anyway, might be work a look! :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 14, 2019, 01:54:24 PM
Nice one Manni, shapping up well! :)  Sounds like you've got a good one so far. 

Did you see Datacolor have launched a new meter - SpyderX? 
https://spyderx.datacolor.com/about-spyderx/ (https://spyderx.datacolor.com/about-spyderx/)
There are marketing claims around for improvements in accuracy and better low light capabilities.
I know JVC typically haven't supported new meters in released product.  However I do wonder if getting support (seeing as it is provided by an external DLL) might be as simple as switching the DLL for the one for the new meter.

Anyway, might be work a look! :)

Thanks!

No I didn't see this about the Spyder X. This might explain why the Spyder 5 Pro is on sale on Amazon UK, at the lowest price ever of £99 (a true bargain).

It might be worth investigating indeed, but not before we can check that the Autocal V11 itself works as intended, I'm reading a few worrying reports from trusted calibrators (such as Chad B) that it might not be entirely ready for prime time. We shall see!

I've just posted detailed contrast measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10396#msg10396) to wrap the day. I'll try to post some calibration measurements as soon as I can, hopefully tomorrow.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 15, 2019, 11:33:53 AM
Just posted detailed measurements for my SDR rec-709 quick calibration (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10398#msg10398) (no Autocal).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 15, 2019, 12:12:20 PM
Also added to yesterday's results some contrast measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10396#msg10396) taken with the Discus trained to the i1pro2 in Calman to compare with the T10. Max Bright, low and high lamp, iris fully open, manual and auto2. This is mainly to give an idea of the accuracy of the Discus ofr contrast measurements, as this is what I'll be using most of the time.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 15, 2019, 12:35:58 PM
...and some measurements for my wide gamut (DCI-P3) basic calibration (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10401#msg10401) (just 100% white set to D65).


I'll try to post HDR and BT2020 measurements later.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Dylan Seeger on February 15, 2019, 12:38:51 PM
I may have missed it somewhere, but how much light loss are you seeing with the P3 filter in the light path?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 15, 2019, 12:45:36 PM
I may have missed it somewhere, but how much light loss are you seeing with the P3 filter in the light path?

I mention this in the recommended settings and in my DCI-P3 measurements. The filter cuts 20% of light, so you gain 25% by not using it. People rarely specify clearly which number they are talking about, so there is a lot of confusion.

[In low lamp]
Filter (120nits here) = no filter (150nits here) -20%
No filter = filter +25%

I’ll also post the difference in the HDR and BT2020 measurements later.


EDIT: see below, it looks like these numbers only apply in low lamp, which is what I primarily use. I've measured BT2020 and HDR in high lamp and the numbers are:

In High Lamp:
Filter (165nits here)= no filter (185nits here) -10%
No filter = filter +15%

That explains a lot!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 15, 2019, 05:13:30 PM
I was hoping I could live with my quick and dirty P3 calibration, but the errors especially on greyscale were too visible on actual content, so I decided to run a Lightning LUT (10minutes) with Calman. Much better :)

All details and new measurements (before after greyscale, gamut, colorchecker SG and contrast) added in the DCI-P3 measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10401#msg10401).

I haven't checked for visual issues yet.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 15, 2019, 08:00:24 PM
Breaking news:

I think I found why the filter/no filter numbers are all over the place. In my brightness measurements, I measured low lamp because that's what I use. In low lamp, the cut is 20% (150nits without filter to 120nits with it). The gain is 25%.

But in high lamp, the cut is only 10% (185nits without the filter to 165nits with it). The gain is 15%.

Dylan, can you confirm you're seeing something similar?

I've posted detailed measurements in the contrast section (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10396#msg10396) for BT2020 and HDR showing the effect of the filter in low lamp and high lamp, but manual and auto (along with the High Bright measurements previously posted).

I've also posted some gamut (P3 within BT2020) and contrast measurements in the BT2020 measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10399#msg10399) and HDR measurements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10400#msg10400) sections. I tried to update my recommended settings and a few posts accordingly, but there might be a few mismatches here and there because I'm having some issues with the editor of the site. I'll resume posting when this is resolved.

I've also updated the main index (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10383#msg10383) post with live links.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Dylan Seeger on February 15, 2019, 08:41:12 PM
Yes, remember when I posed the question earlier in the owners thread as to how I was only measuring a 10% loss? It seems you found out why. I was measuring in high lamp mode. I'm glad my measurements now match yours.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: bobof on February 16, 2019, 03:21:27 AM
I'm not doubting you guys are measuring this difference, but I wonder why it is?  It doesn't make a ton of sense at first look.


I understand there is now a filter in both the green and red path.  I wonder if this is a single filter in an opportune place in the light splitting, or two separate filters.  If two separate filters, I wonder if they're both always being used - perhaps they don't need one of them in high lamp.  Do you hear any filter type sounds when switching lamp mode, or is it just the change in fan noise?  I don't think this is likely though.


Are these all calibrated D65 measures?
The lamp spectrum changes with high lamp, which I guess could have an effect; but it is a big difference.


And of course, when you switch the lamp mode you're in a different Autocal bank, perhaps there is some difference there...  I know you've not run autocal yet, but perhaps there is some difference in what they are loaded with to start with.


The only reason to try and figure this out is to see if it is possible to liberate a bit more light in low lamp with the filter on.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 16, 2019, 06:57:46 AM
I'm not doubting you guys are measuring this difference, but I wonder why it is?  It doesn't make a ton of sense at first look.

I understand there is now a filter in both the green and red path.  I wonder if this is a single filter in an opportune place in the light splitting, or two separate filters.  If two separate filters, I wonder if they're both always being used - perhaps they don't need one of them in high lamp.  Do you hear any filter type sounds when switching lamp mode, or is it just the change in fan noise?  I don't think this is likely though.

Are these all calibrated D65 measures?
The lamp spectrum changes with high lamp, which I guess could have an effect; but it is a big difference.

And of course, when you switch the lamp mode you're in a different Autocal bank, perhaps there is some difference there...  I know you've not run autocal yet, but perhaps there is some difference in what they are loaded with to start with.

The only reason to try and figure this out is to see if it is possible to liberate a bit more light in low lamp with the filter on.

I agree 100% that it is not expected, which is why I initially thought that my low lamp numbers would apply to high lamp too.

It definitely works that way on the rs500 as far as I remember.

No there is no filter noise when moving between high/low in high lamp.

The calibration tables can make a difference, but that would be a big difference at 100%, which is unlikely.

I do take the time to reprofile the Discus eveytime I change lamp mode or filter mode, so I have five profiles: SDR Rec-709, BT2020-F (low lamp), BT2020-F (high lamp), HDR-NF (low lamp) and HDR-NF (high lamp).

The differences are not huge, but enough to impact the results. I redid all my measurements yesterday when I found this and it's 100% checked. All the brightness / contrast results I've taken with Calman (in the zips BT2020 and HDR open iris) are at D65 for every single mode, which is why it take a while to run them. I set D65 with the i1pro2, then checked the Discus profile to make sure the RGB/100% white reading is the same, re-ran the profile if necessary, and then took the contrast measurements with the Discus. I did this every single time I changed either the filter mode or the lamp mode.

I also made sure that the Discus had a dark cal within 5mn, especially for the measurements with the DI.

So I'm 99.99% confident of my measurements :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: bobof on February 16, 2019, 08:06:33 AM
So I'm 99.99% confident of my measurements :)
I didn't even mention measurement technique stuff as I'm sure you're sure... :) :)

If you were interested to work out if it is intrinsic to the filter + lamp spectrum in hi vs low, or a digital issue in the projector calibration tables, you could measure the projector in Profile Off mode with 100% white patch.  And while in profile off mode with your white patch displayed use JVCcontrol as per my post elsewhere, or some other means, to sneak the filter into the light path for the purpose of measurements.  It would give a valuable clue as to whether there is scope to get more P3 brightness in low lamp... :)

Edit: in each case you'd need to use the colour temp sliders to adjust 100% white to match D65 of course.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 16, 2019, 09:00:43 AM
I've just posted some initial impressions (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10384#msg10384). It's a draft (so forgive any typos) but it's roughly accurate.

Bobof, sorry but I've spent a lot of time calibrating and measuring, now that I'm happy with the performance I'm going to watch content. A lot of content! I'm super happy with the projector and it was very difficult for me not to watch again every single film I watched a clip from...

Later I'll get the meters out again, but for now, I'm patterned out :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: bobof on February 17, 2019, 11:40:22 AM
Bobof, sorry but I've spent a lot of time calibrating and measuring, now that I'm happy with the performance I'm going to watch content. A lot of content! I'm super happy with the projector and it was very difficult for me not to watch again every single film I watched a clip from...
I wasn't suggesting you should, just a way to figure out a bit more if you were interested.. :).  Cheers!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: LovingDVD on February 17, 2019, 06:04:14 PM
Wow Manni - Just finished getting caught up with your progress. What am amazing thread you are building and super organized. This is a fantastic resource. Thanks so much for putting this together! I'm really happy that you love the new unit and it is a significant upgrade over your RS500. Looking forward to reading more about your impressions as you continue to spend more time with the unit.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Dylan Seeger on February 18, 2019, 09:22:26 PM
Did a REC709/SDR calibration tonight:

(https://i.imgur.com/d2cbVpm.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/mHjVZov.png)

Greyscale needed a decent bit of help, but I could tell that right out of the box. I'll more than likely need to do another calibration in a month or so as I only have 25 hours on this bulb. I forgot to take a screenshot of the gamma curve, but that was pretty close to perfect out of the box. Brightness and contrast set to their default '0' setting clips and crushes properly at 235 and 16.


Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 19, 2019, 02:18:32 PM
Looks good Dylan. Did you check if brightness = 0 raises the black floor on your unit too? The defaults in HDMI standard (16-235) do clip below 16 and above 235, but I needed -2 on brightness to not raise the black floor and kill on/off contrast. It would be good to know if mine is an odd one out or if it's more frequent.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Dylan Seeger on February 19, 2019, 03:10:33 PM
The way I have things set up is like this. I use LAV Video Decoder and under Options for it I set 'RGB Output Levels" as 'Untouched, As Input", then in madVR, I set it to 0-255 and then in nvidia control center for my RTX 2070 I have it set to Full 0-255 as well. This way the computer itself isn't altering anything. I also use the "disable GPU gamma ramps" under the calibration tab in madVR. All of these settings make it so only the projector will manipulate the image. My RS2000 correctly detects the incoming image when setting the HDMI Input Level to Auto. I used the AVS Test Pattern suite to confirm black crushes properly a 16 and white clips properly at 235 with both the Brightness and Contrast settings set to their default '0' position. I have the R. Masicola HDR test pattern suite and will use that when doing my HDR10 calibration in the coming days.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 19, 2019, 04:42:37 PM
The fact the the levels clip where they should doesn’t mean that you aren’t raising the black floor. I explained this briefly in the recommended settings.  Display a black pattern (no ambient light of course) and press hide on the remote. Does the pattern get blacker? Sometimes it’s not possible to detect visually that the brightness setting raises the black floor, you need to measure. For example, with brightness at 0, I can see that the black floor is raised with the “hide” test. With -1, it’s not visible that clearly by eye, but if I meaure contrast still goes down.  Only -2 in my case doesn’t raise the black floor. This is not detectable using the pattern used to set levels. You need a black pattern (and ideally a meter able to read black accurately) to assess this.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Dylan Seeger on February 19, 2019, 04:55:33 PM
I will test this out later. I will place my lux meter as close to the lens as I can to get the most accurate reading.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Mavromatis on February 19, 2019, 04:56:14 PM
I received my Spyder5Pro today and decided to "LOG" the results.  The only adjustments I have made OOTB was 2 point adjustment using Calman for BT709 and that got me great deltas/results for Gamma and Color using the C6 HDR Meter for BT709.

I'm unfamiliar with the JVC calibration so perhaps you can help me out with the "LOG" results and if I should actually run the gamma+color calibration?  Or if I should use Calman and calibrate the HDR as it seems like the HDR is way off...

User 1 (BT709:
(https://i.imgur.com/hzavJOx.jpg)

HDR10 Results:

(https://i.imgur.com/eXCuXLW.jpg)


Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Murray on February 19, 2019, 05:00:39 PM
This maynot be the right place to post but I thought manni or someone else might help me... Ive asked this question on some of the madvr threads but cant seem to get an answer...

I have the new NX9, screen size is 145" diag curved Stewart ST130 micro perf. Im using the new dynamic madvr HDR to SDR version 49 which I just love. It is better than the new tone mapping on the NX9 and super bright I can run in low lamp.

My problem is I just dont know how to set the target nits in madvr, I have asked this question but most come back saying try this or that and see what looks best. I was told for my screen and its gain of 1.2 I should use 80 target on the NX9, but I know of others that use 200 with a Z1. I have tried 80 which I say looks great, but last night I tried 200, but I dont see anything really change, however i dont know what to look for being so new to HDR. Manni or someone else can you please advise me what to look for or what to set the target nits to.

Many thanks in advance and sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Dylan Seeger on February 19, 2019, 05:33:15 PM
Murray, you'll need a lux meter. You'll need to measure the actual peak white image brightness coming off of your screen. This is the number you'll want to use for the latest builds of madVR.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Murray on February 19, 2019, 05:45:52 PM
Murray, you'll need a lux meter. You'll need to measure the actual peak white image brightness coming off of your screen. This is the number you'll want to use for the latest builds of madVR. Oh not so easy:(
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Dylan Seeger on February 19, 2019, 09:56:05 PM
Manni, I just checked and I'm not seeing any change in black level doing the "hide" test. My Minolta CL200 lux meter didn't report a difference in black level either. Projector was in high lamp, iris fully open. Meter was placed within a foot of the projector lens, too. So this was well within the meter's range to detect a change.

I'm wondering if there's something done at the factory, a type of calibration, that each unit receives that might account for this difference between our units. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 20, 2019, 01:52:55 AM
I received my Spyder5Pro today and decided to "LOG" the results.  The only adjustments I have made OOTB was 2 point adjustment using Calman for BT709 and that got me great deltas/results for Gamma and Color using the C6 HDR Meter for BT709.
The Rec-709 results look good, I wouldn't attempt an Autocal right now as there are issues with the current version (V11 1.0) restoring init files if needed. Plus from what I hear the results aren't completely right at the moment. This is why I haven't yet started diving into the software. I want to be able to go back to factory if something goes wrong, and a factory reset doesn't allow that. So personally I'm waiting for an update to the software from JVC. If you have a C6, I would work on the lower greyscale ab it further as it looks a bit out (you can also use the JVC Autocal to adjust gamma manually using the 11-point parametric controls, as that should work. I might give it a try at some point and explain the procedure if needed. For HDR, yes, it would be more useful to look at results in Calman as the graphs would be more precise, but PQ will always look like this, because the flat line always shows a gamma 2.2 reference. So the shape itself isn't a sign that it's significantly off. In fact it doesn't look that bad.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 20, 2019, 01:58:34 AM
Manni, I just checked and I'm not seeing any change in black level doing the "hide" test. My Minolta CL200 lux meter didn't report a difference in black level either. Projector was in high lamp, iris fully open. Meter was placed within a foot of the projector lens, too. So this was well within the meter's range to detect a change. I'm wondering if there's something done at the factory, a type of calibration, that each unit receives that might account for this difference between our units.
Hi Dylan, Oh yes, there is always unit to unit variation, so I wouldn't expect all units to need the same setting, it's just that in my experience former models (up to the rs500) never had raised black with the defaults. In fact they often need a +1 or even +2 on brightness to not crush blacks. Kris reported that some more recent models needed -1 as well, so it might have happened post rs500 that it became more frequent. It's good that you checked, that way you know you're not killing your on/off. Your contrast measurements look good, just a little bit on the low side for max dynamic, but it might be a meter issue, so that's why I was wondering. Also from what you are saying you are using PC Levels, not Video levels, so that might make a difference too. I set the JVC to HDMI standard and then the GPU to 0-255 and MadVR to 16-235, because I prefer to let MadVR do the dithering that having JVC doing it behind its back. That way I clip at 235 and am not wasting contrast in SDR. Levels are tricky, but you've checked them so no reason to believe there is anything wrong your end.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 20, 2019, 02:10:41 AM
This maynot be the right place to post but I thought manni or someone else might help me... Ive asked this question on some of the madvr threads but cant seem to get an answer... I have the new NX9, screen size is 145" diag curved Stewart ST130 micro perf. Im using the new dynamic madvr HDR to SDR version 49 which I just love. It is better than the new tone mapping on the NX9 and super bright I can run in low lamp. My problem is I just dont know how to set the target nits in madvr, I have asked this question but most come back saying try this or that and see what looks best. I was told for my screen and its gain of 1.2 I should use 80 target on the NX9, but I know of others that use 200 with a Z1. I have tried 80 which I say looks great, but last night I tried 200, but I dont see anything really change, however i dont know what to look for being so new to HDR. Manni or someone else can you please advise me what to look for or what to set the target nits to. Many thanks in advance and sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.
Hi Murray,

As Dylan said, you need to measure 100% white with a meter to know for sure the peak white value to use in MadVR. 

You can estimate the value with the screen size, dimension, gain, lamp power, zoom ratio, etc but it's not easy. If a calibrator (or a screen calculator) has given you a value in fL, simply multiply that by 3 to get the rough value in nits, and use that.

Failing this, simply use 80nits if you're happy with that. If it feels too dark with some titles, use a lower value. If it looks too bright, use a higher value.

For example, watch a very dark film such as Ghost in the Shell, Blade Runner 2049, Goodfellas or Patriot Day. If the picture is too dark, then lower the target until it looks good in dark scenes in these films.

Then try a very bright film such as Starship Trooper, The Meg, Pacific rim or The Shallow. Look at highlights in bright scenes. If the scenes are too bright, and or if you lose too much highlights, then raise the target.

In the end, you should have settings that work equally well for both dark and bright scenes/films, but that's not only due to the target, the other parameters also play a part. It's way too complex to explain here.

The reason why you're not getting any answer in other threads is because this is experimental work. These are not support threads, because there is no public build out yet.

As I said, I will start a thread after a public build of madVR is released, once settings are not changing every day. In the meantime, please refrain from asking questions on madVR here, because it's taking time away from the experimental work and it's kind of off topic in this thread, especially as it's about experimental, not public builds.

Once a public build with the HDR tonemapping is out, you'll get support in the various madVR threads, and in the one I plan to start here. If you're subscribed to this thread, you'll know as soon as the madVR thread starts as I'll post a link here.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Madfloyd on February 23, 2019, 04:29:20 AM
Hi Murray,

As Dylan said, you need to measure 100% white with a meter to know for sure the peak white value to use in MadVR.

You can estimate the value with the screen size, dimension, gain, lamp power, zoom ratio, etc but it's not easy. If a calibrator (or a screen calculator) has given you a value in fL, simply multiply that by 3 to get the rough value in nits, and use that.

Failing this, simply use 80nits if you're happy with that. If it feels too dark with some titles, use a lower value. If it looks too bright, use a higher value.

For example, watch a very dark film such as Ghost in the Shell, Blade Runner 2049, Goodfellas or Patriot Day. If the picture is too dark, then lower the target until it looks good in dark scenes in these films.

Then try a very bright film such as Starship Trooper, The Meg, Pacific rim or The Shallow. Look at highlights in bright scenes. If the scenes are too bright, and or if you lose too much highlights, then raise the target.

In the end, you should have settings that work equally well for both dark and bright scenes/films, but that's not only due to the target, the other parameters also play a part. It's way too complex to explain here.

The reason why you're not getting any answer in other threads is because this is experimental work. These are not support threads, because there is no public build out yet.

As I said, I will start a thread after a public build of madVR is released, once settings are not changing every day. In the meantime, please refrain from asking questions on madVR here, because it's taking time away from the experimental work and it's kind of off topic in this thread, especially as it's about experimental, not public builds.

Once a public build with the HDR tonemapping is out, you'll get support in the various madVR threads, and in the one I plan to start here. If you're subscribed to this thread, you'll know as soon as the madVR thread starts as I'll post a link here.
I'll just add my $0.02 and say that with more recent versions of madVR, the real peak nits value doesn't seem to do much (as Murray noted).  I would guess that it does in certain situations, but it no longer works as an overall brightness control.

I would follow Manni's advice and try the suggested movies.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: riddle on February 24, 2019, 12:49:14 PM
Some new info about updatet JVC Autocal Software V11 1.0? I try run it with my Spider5 (for GAMA) but when i try run and write it i got error on 24% :(.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 24, 2019, 01:06:30 PM
Some new info about updatet JVC Autocal Software V11 1.0? I try run it with my Spider5 (for GAMA) but when i try run and write it i got error on 24% :(.
No news and it might take a while, so be patient. I wouldn’t expect anything until after a new f/w is out. Meanwhile, you can use the color temp offsets and gains, as well as the gamma controls in the PJ (dark gamma, picture tone and bright gamma) to get very close to a good curve in most cases. If you need to tweak further, then you can use the 12-point manual controls in the autocal to adjust RGB as needed over the whole curve with a fairly good precision.

Personally, I’m not trying the autocal itself until they deliver a revised version that can restore an INIT file without bricking the PJ... But the above should be fine.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: riddle on February 24, 2019, 07:52:43 PM
No news and it might take a while, so be patient. I wouldn’t expect anything until after a new f/w is out. Meanwhile, you can use the color temp offsets and gains, as well as the gamma controls in the PJ (dark gamma, picture tone and bright gamma) to get very close to a good curve in most cases. If you need to tweak further, then you can use the 12-point manual controls in the autocal to adjust RGB as needed over the whole curve with a fairly good precision.

Personally, I’m not trying the autocal itself until they deliver a revised version that can restore an INIT file without bricking the PJ... But the above should be fine.

Hi Manni, can i usk you what worflow you are used in Calman calibrate your projector? Its looks greate.
Thank you
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on February 25, 2019, 01:25:23 PM
Hi Manni, can i usk you what worflow you are used in Calman calibrate your projector? Its looks greate.
Thank you
I simply set 100% white to D65 and ran a Lightning LUT for MadVR with Calman. It's a small LUT (101 points) that takes less than 10 minutes and gives good results when the display is very linear, which was the case of the rs2000.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 09, 2019, 02:31:17 AM
Just to say that I've added ANSI contrast measurements taken at 110 hours in the contrast measurements section.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: bobof on March 09, 2019, 02:08:09 PM
Just to say that I've added ANSI contrast measurements taken at 110 hours in the contrast measurements section.
Is the section in the spreadsheet with the min/max and 2% mentioned attempting to address the meter inaccuracy of the Minolta?  If so I think it is perhaps optimistic.  Minolta T10 is quoted at +/-2% +/-1 displayed digit.
  
So at the very lowest measurement ranges the accuracy gets a bit wild...  If it is only displaying 0.04 on the display I believe this could be anything between 0.03 LUX and 0.05 LUX (effectively +/- 25%)

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 10, 2019, 03:52:32 AM
Is the section in the spreadsheet with the min/max and 2% mentioned attempting to address the meter inaccuracy of the Minolta?  If so I think it is perhaps optimistic.  Minolta T10 is quoted at +/-2% +/-1 displayed digit.
 
So at the very lowest measurement ranges the accuracy gets a bit wild...  If it is only displaying 0.04 on the display I believe this could be anything between 0.03 LUX and 0.05 LUX (effectively +/- 25%)

Explanation of why the T10 measurements are reasonably accurate - if not in absolute values at least to compare the various settings and measurements made of previous models - are in the comments. The attached files also contain contrast measurements made with the Discus trained to my i1pro2 measuring off the screen. They are within 5% of the T10, on the conservative side.

Here is what I said:

"I didn’t move the meter for all the measurements as its range was enough to cover everything, given that the black floor with the DI didn’t go very low. Ideally, I’d have wanted to get a bit closer to the lens to lower the margin of error at the low end (I’m not happy with 0.04 lux for the lowest measurement, because we’re getting near the limit and a single significant digit change there makes a huge difference in the ratio) but it’s good enough for a first attempt. I usually measure on slow and wait at least 10-15 seconds for the reading to stabilize. If I find a way to place the tripod (possibly a different one) a bit closer to the lens, I might take another round. Overall I’m confident that these results are accurate (if not as far as their absolute readings, at least within the capability of the meter) because they are within 5% of those taken by the Discus in Calman (see below)."

I managed to bring the meter closer for the ANSI contrast measurements, though black of course doesn't go that low with these, in order to maximize the readings. I might remeasure at some point, but if I do it will probably be with the Discus, not the T10. I also provide measurements of the same contrast twice for different positions (auto1 and auto2) so that the reader can see that as inaccurate as it is, the T10 readings are at least repeatable.

Otherwise I agree that the information re accuracy is not useful to others. I'll take it out.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: DLCPhoto on March 10, 2019, 04:15:58 AM
Thank you for this positive, constructive comment. After all this hard work, it's good to know that someone cares enough to post their appreciation. It's posts like this that keep me going :)
Manni, with regard to this part of your post, I think it would be helpful for you to realize that there are many of us, myself included, who are *very* appreciative of all your posts, all the research and analysis, that you provide.  We lack the in-depth knowledge and experience you bring to the forum, and so there's basically nothing we can contribute to many of these conversations.  But we sit back, and learn what we can from your posts, as well as the equally informed replies from those who are in a position to do so.

So, don't interpret the lack of numerous replies or thanks as evidence that nobody cares about all your hard work!  Keep it up!:D
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 10, 2019, 04:27:49 AM
Thanks and no worries, I didn't mean this for anyone else, apologies if that's the way it came across. I'll edit that part of the post.

It's just that when someone goes through all this information and only finds a nitpicking comment to post that doesn't bring anything valuable to the discussion (this isn't the first time), about a point that was covered in my comments, I find that a bit rich. :)

And by the way, you often contribute in this forum and elsewhere, and are far more knowledgeable than you suggest, so feel free to do so here too. Also you frequently "like" posts, which is a good way to express appreciation and a positive frame of mind.

All constructive comments and contributions are welcome. I certainly hope that others will contribute to the thread, but I guess we will need JVC to deliver a working version of the Autocal for things to start properly.

If anyone is interested, I could explain how to use the manual gamma controls in the meantime.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: David Vaughn on March 11, 2019, 06:44:38 PM
Manni, just to add to the compliments, but you are amazing at providing detailed instructions and helping out the community immensely. I nominate you for "Member of the Decade!" :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 11, 2019, 07:12:06 PM
Manni, just to add to the compliments, but you are amazing at providing detailed instructions and helping out the community immensely. I nominate you for "Member of the Decade!" :)
Thanks Dave, sounds like an Austin Powers title. Nice, but a bit over the top :)

Have you had a chance to get your hands on a new JVC yet? Would love to hear your thoughts.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 15, 2019, 03:39:16 AM
Just to say that I had a healthy exchange of PMs with @Bobof.

I've edited my reply to him above as I understand the intention behind his comment better. He explained to me why he made it that way, and I explained to him why I reacted the way I did. We've put this behind us and hopefully we'll find a better way to interact in the future. He is certainly welcome to contribute his knowledge and experience to the thread, and I hope that he will.

I also agree that the information regarding accuracy in the contrast measurements table isn't useful to others. It's a leftover in my spreadsheet. I'll take it out.

I'd like to take this opportunity to explain why I reacted the way I did, clear the air and to lay some ground rules for a positive atmosphere in this thread.

I spend hundred of hours collecting this data and sharing it with others, for the benefit of the community.

This isn't my job. I don't work for JVC. I am just passionate about film and trying to get the most out of my projector.

Because I spend a lot of time doing this (frankly, more than I would want to), I'm trying to share my findings, hoping it will help others to save time and get better results.

I hope that it's useful, and some of you have kindly expressed this.

I may know a thing or two, but I don't believe that I know everything or that I'm always right. I have and will make mistakes.

Everything I know, I learned from others over the years, and mostly from knowledgeable, experienced people in various forums. I still learn all the time regarding this topic and I did recently from people like Bobof, Dominic Chan, Kris Deering, David Vaughn, Chad B, LovingDVD and many others. I am very grateful for the time, knowledge and experience they generously share with others.

If there is a factual mistake in the data that I share or in my comments, I do want it to be corrected. This is called AV Science Discussions, not AV Nonsense Discussions. You can decide about the best way to do so. You can contact me by PM, or you can post in the thread. Both are fine.

However, here is what I am asking for:





If we stick to these ground rules, I'm hoping that the thread will blossom with everyone's contributions. :)

Of course, getting a working version of the software will help even more. Hopefully, soon.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 15, 2019, 04:49:56 AM
Well, that happened faster than expected :)

Both the f/w and the Autocal software have been updated:

New firmware V2.01 (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000/)

Changelog:

・Added color profile exclusively to use with Panasonic UHD-BD player to obtain optimum HDR image quality.
・Specification change that enables each gamma adjustment setting whilst using auto tone mapping function
・Addition of new screens for screen adjustment mode
・Improved operation stability

New JVC Autocal software V1.10 (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000_calibrationsoft.html)

I'll take a look as soon as I can.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 15, 2019, 05:47:15 AM
Unfortunately for now it's a no go. :(

The new Autocal version needs the new f/w, and I can't get the RS2000 to detect my USB drive.

It's FAT32 formatted (freshly, with defaults), the f/w folder is the only folder in the drive, as per the instructions.

No file or folder name was modified.

I tried inserting it when the PJ is off, switching the PJ on, and tried to initiate the f/w update. Not detected.

I also tried to hot plug it, not detected either.

Initially, I was using a short USB extension for easy access, but I tried a direct connection and that makes no difference.

I tried with an active HDMI input and without an active HDMI input.

I'll try with another USB drive, otherwise I don't see what more I can do.

If anyone has success updating the f/w to V2.01, please let us know.

EDIT:

I tried the same USB Drive after a full power off cycle, it didn't help.

I tried a different USB drive (same FAT32 format, same update folder), and it worked right away, even hot-plugging, even with the short USB extension for easy access.

So for some reason it doesn't seem to like my Sandisk 16Gb thumbdrive that I'm using for calibration related duties.

It did like the old 8gb thumbdrive Sandisk Cruzer I took out of my Dune.

Time estimated: 20 minutes!

It is a slow drive... The three LEDs are flashing in sequence, from right to left, so all is good for now.

If your drive isn't detected and you've followed the instructions, then try another one.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: AVSMike on March 15, 2019, 06:24:56 AM
Well, that happened faster than expected :)

Both the f/w and the Autocal software have been updated:

New firmware V2.01 (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000/)

Changelog:

・Added color profile exclusively to use with Panasonic UHD-BD player to obtain optimum HDR image quality.
・Specification change that enables each gamma adjustment setting whilst using auto tone mapping function
・Addition of new screens for screen adjustment mode
・Improved operation stability

New JVC Autocal software V1.10 (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000_calibrationsoft.html)

I'll take a look as soon as I can.
Been waiting for this. Will solve the slow start up time several are having. Will solve the problem of reloading the INIT file for autocal. Adds the color profiles for the Panasonic players. It does not address the yellowing problem. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: bobof on March 15, 2019, 06:31:40 AM
Just to say that I had a healthy exchange of PMs with @Bobof.
Thanks for posting Manni.  I had thought about posting in the thread after our PMs but I didn't want to add noise into the thread, and I was happy to take on board some of the points raised.  Anyway, onwards and upwards; good luck with the autocal mission. :) 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on March 15, 2019, 06:55:50 AM
I'd like to learn how to properly use autocal.

I am new to JVC and just bought a Spyder5.  From what I understand, it's really only worth doing a gamma cal with a spyder5 due to it not being accurate enough for color.

I have not tried using autocal yet.  Is it clear how to just tell it to do a gamma cal?

Also, I don't know anything about this INIT file in case I want or need to revert my calibration?

Can anyone give me like a few tips on these topics?  Sorry if this is slightly off topic.  I will actually be calibrating my cousins RS400 for the first time tomorrow, but I just got my NX5 and will be using autocal on it as well.

My past experience is just in using HCFR to do a grayscale white balance calibration and adjusting the RGB gain and offset and storing it in Custom 1 and 2 color temps.

For autocal, where does it store gamma calibrations and color calibrations?  Can you run it for both high and low bulb and store different results to use in your user modes and installation modes?

Normally I learn this stuff just playing around, but I don't want to mess up anything too bad, especially when I don't even fully understand the reset procedure yet.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: AVSMike on March 15, 2019, 07:04:03 AM
Unfortunately for now it's a no go. :(

The new Autocal version needs the new f/w, and I can't get the RS2000 to detect my USB drive.

It's FAT32 formatted (freshly, with defaults), the f/w folder is the only folder in the drive, as per the instructions.

No file or folder name was modified.

I tried inserting it when the PJ is off, switching the PJ on, and tried to initiate the f/w update. Not detected.

I also tried to hot plug it, not detected either.

Initially, I was using a short USB extension for easy access, but I tried a direct connection and that makes no difference.

I tried with an active HDMI input and without an active HDMI input.

I'll try with another USB drive, otherwise I don't see what more I can do.

If anyone has success updating the f/w to V2.01, please let us know.

EDIT:

I tried the same USB Drive after a full power off cycle, it didn't help.

I tried a different USB drive (same FAT32 format, same update folder), and it worked right away, even hot-plugging.

So for some reason it doesn't seem to like my Sandisk 16Gb thumbdrive that I'm using for calibration related duties.

It did like the old 8gb thumbdrive I took out from my Dune.

Time estimated: 20 minutes!

It is a slow drive... The three LEDs are flashing in sequence, from right to left, so all is good for now.

If your drive isn't detected and you've followed the instructions, then try another one.
I checked with my one of my contacts at JVC. He said he saw the new autocal in action Wednesday.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 15, 2019, 07:55:59 AM
I checked with my one of my contacts at JVC. He said he saw the new autocal in action Wednesday.
Thanks Mike. You might have missed the end of my edit, the f/w update went fine when I tried a different USB Drive :)

The first drive is fine, so no idea why it wasn't detected.

Anyway, it took a while, but the update completed fine and the PJ switched itself off.

When I switched the PJ back on, the iris made a weird noise (hopefully a one-off) and I now have the new f/w and Autocal installed (see screenshots).

I'll give the Autocal a try ASAP, hopefully tonight.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 15, 2019, 08:00:22 AM
I'd like to learn how to properly use autocal.

I am new to JVC and just bought a Spyder5.  From what I understand, it's really only worth doing a gamma cal with a spyder5 due to it not being accurate enough for color.

I have not tried using autocal yet.  Is it clear how to just tell it to do a gamma cal?

Also, I don't know anything about this INIT file in case I want or need to revert my calibration?

Can anyone give me like a few tips on these topics?  Sorry if this is slightly off topic.  I will actually be calibrating my cousins RS400 for the first time tomorrow, but I just got my NX5 and will be using autocal on it as well.

My past experience is just in using HCFR to do a grayscale white balance calibration and adjusting the RGB gain and offset and storing it in Custom 1 and 2 color temps.

For autocal, where does it store gamma calibrations and color calibrations?  Can you run it for both high and low bulb and store different results to use in your user modes and installation modes?

Normally I learn this stuff just playing around, but I don't want to mess up anything too bad, especially when I don't even fully understand the reset procedure yet.
Hi Sirmaster,

I and others will soon post some advice about using the Autocal now that we have (hopefully) a safe and working version.

In the meantime, please read the user manual linked to in the second post, as it will give you an answer to quite a few of these questions. Feel free to read any of the already "live" links in the index, as that might provide further relevant information.

I will post in the thread when I update one of the topics in the reserved posts, so just be patient! :).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 15, 2019, 08:03:12 AM
Thanks for posting Manni.  I had thought about posting in the thread after our PMs but I didn't want to add noise into the thread, and I was happy to take on board some of the points raised.  Anyway, onwards and upwards; good luck with the autocal mission. :)
Thanks and likewise :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 15, 2019, 09:01:39 AM
I had a problem initially because the IP address had for some reason reverted to my rs500, which is still on the network. So I was getting an "OK" reply, but not for/from the right projector, which led to a model mismatch error (error in detecting the model)...

With the IP address pointing to the rs2000, there is no issue and the new Autocal seems to be ready to go. :)

Hopefully it won't revert to the rs500 IP address again, or I'll have to disconnect the rs500 when calibrating the rs2000, and vice-versa.

Both meters (Spyder 5 Pro and i1pro2) detected, I'll give it a try later...
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: AVSMike on March 15, 2019, 10:01:58 AM
Thanks Mike. You might have missed the end of my edit, the f/w update went fine when I tried a different USB Drive :)

The first drive is fine, so no idea why it wasn't detected.

Anyway, it took a while, but the update completed fine and the PJ switched itself off.

When I switched the PJ back on, the iris made a weird noise (hopefully a one-off) and I now have the new f/w and Autocal installed (see screenshots).

I'll give the Autocal a try ASAP, hopefully tonight.
Yes, saw that after the fact. :) JVC always says to try another USB. I do not understand why some work and some don't. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 15, 2019, 10:19:28 AM
Yes, saw that after the fact. :) JVC always says to try another USB. I do not understand why some work and some don't.
No problem. I've updated the FAQ (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10392#msg10392) with the two minor issues I experienced today (one re the f/w update and the USB driver detection, the other with the mis-detection of my model due to the IP address reverting to my rs500).

Overall, especially if you have a USB driver that the JVC likes, the f/w update is a much nicer procedure than with older models. It takes a while, so you have to be patient, but it's straighforward.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 15, 2019, 02:08:05 PM
I did a first quick attempt for my rec-709 calibration (low lamp, iris -12, peak 65nits) with what should have, in theory, provided the best results:

- Gamma autocal with the Spyder 5 Pro facing the PJ
- Color only (gamut + white point) autocal with the i1pro2 facing the screen.

The gamma autocal result was decent but not great. Correcting 100% white manually did improve things, but still not the kind of results I'm used to get with the older models

The color autocal had one positive effect, it pushed my undersaturated red slightly closer to target, so I ended up with 99% gamut cover. Unfortunately, the error on 100% white was huge (3dE) and overall the calibration wasn't a massive improvement.

It's honestly not good enough to document, so while I have measurements I won't share them.

I'll wait to see if any experienced user can get good results.
One thing to keep in mind if you want to try with the i1pro2, it has to be on its plate when you select it, and you have to press the button right away to do a white calibration. Otherwise, the software will tell you it can't find the meter.

That's not ideal, it should first detect the meter, and then ask for a white calibration.

Also, with the i1pro2 about two feet from the screen and reading 65nits, it was not possible to get the meter within the box. I'll try with my HDR calibration, I might get better results with the iris fully open.

Mike, if JVC wants any details or data on these underwhelming results, please let me know how they want me to communicate them.

I'll make another attempt over the week-end if I can, but right now I am not convinced it's working as it should, or I might be missing something.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 15, 2019, 03:38:41 PM
It looks like one of the bugs in V1.0 might not have been fixed. [EDIT: doesn't seem to be the case after testing with SDR WCG calibration].

I tried to power the PJ off and remeasure after a restart, and the color cal (gamut and white point) results were significantly better.

Gamma and color temp was still off though, and significantly. 100% white is within 1dE, which is fine, but the color temp is very off below that. This Spyder5 used to give me good results with the rs500, so I don't think it's the culprit.

I'll make an attempt with my SDR WCG calibration (the baseline I used with madVR) to see if I get better results if I power off in between each autocal session.

If that's part of the issue and if JVC haven't corrected this, it's a bit disappointing.

There doesn't to be an issue with 4K input, one of the reported bugs in the 1.00 was that you needed a 1080p input for it to work.

I'll update the thread later if I get any interesting results with my SDR WCG calibration.

I did the SDR one selecting the new option to replicate gamma into all the other calibrations, but it's hard to know if it works or not given the poor results. I'll use individual this time.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 15, 2019, 06:35:23 PM
I'm happier with the SDR WCG calibration. Maybe the Autocal struggles at -12 / 65nits with the SDR rec-709 calibration, and is happier with the iris fully open? I did check with the Rec-709 calibration that none of the gamma steps readings were zero, and none were so not sure why it struggled as the meter was positioned optimally for that iris setting.

With my SDR WCG calibration, I get a minor gain in peak brightness / contrast and improvements across the range, including a minor increase in gamut cover (from 97% to 98% of P3), though red at 100% sat is still slightly undersaturated, which likely reflects a limitation of the native gamut. There doesn't seem to be any downsides, near black seems fine, the black floor isn't raised, but I haven't had the time to do a visual check with actual content.

I still struggle to get the i1pro2 into the positioning box, even with the iris fully open, I have no idea why because I can't really bring it closer to the screen without making it read its own shadow. But I'm happy with the results.

It's late so I'll post more tomorrow, but here are the colorchecker SG screenshots before autocal, after a gamma A/C with the Spyder 5 Pro and a color Autocal with the i1pro2, and after a madVR lightning LUT (101 points, less than 10 minutes).

I think that for this calibration, the Autocal results are very decent, with a max dE of 2.2 and an average of 0.9, to compare with a max of 5.9 and an average of 1.6 before the Autocal (which isn't that bad by the way, but clearly shows the need for calibration).

I didn't do any manual adjustment, not even 100% white to D65. That way you can see out of the box measurements at 165 hours, after the JVC Autocal and after madVR, without any manual interaction. I could improve things marginally but I thought it would be more interesting to post the "raw" results, to get an idea of what each stage brings.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 16, 2019, 03:57:32 AM
I've posted some advice for preparation (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10389#msg10389) in the basic section that should help those eager to get started to hit the ground running. I attached some screenshots and pictures to help with meter positioning.

I've added at the end of the post some advanced tips, especially for those using another software and reference meters to check a calibration and for those profiling a colorimeter to a reference spectro.

I've also updated the FAQ (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10392#msg10392) to reflect a couple of issues, especially regarding using the i1pro2 calibration at the beginning of a session. Make sure you read the FAQ if you hit any problem before posting. This, alongside with reading the JVC Autocal manual, should cover the most common issues and I'll keep updating it as we make progress.

Finally, I've added an important warning in the first post, so make sure you read it before doing anything else :)

Hope this helps, I'll try to post more over the week-end, hopefully to cover gamma and color calibration.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: bobof on March 16, 2019, 09:33:00 AM
One thing to keep in mind if you want to try with the i1pro2, it has to be on its plate when you select it, and you have to press the button right away to do a white calibration. Otherwise, the software will tell you it can't find the meter.

That's not ideal, it should first detect the meter, and then ask for a white calibration.

Also, with the i1pro2 about two feet from the screen and reading 65nits, it was not possible to get the meter within the box. I'll try with my HDR calibration, I might get better results with the iris fully open.
It's a shame they've not improved the meter setup for the i1pro2 when moving to V11.  It was all a bit "afterthought" in its implementation in V10.

It seems V11 behaves in the same ways with the i1pro2 as V10.  By far the most annoying behaviour for me is that you have to re-connect and re-calibrate the meter every time you go into the calibration mode, so if you've just done one calibration you have to get it back down off the tripod, put in back on the plate, and then back on the tripod again.  If you're dextrous you can just about hold the meter onto the calibration tile with the tile rotated a few degrees without taking it off the tripod.

I think the positioning box for the i1pro2 readings from screen is completely bogus and serves no purpose.  Measuring off screen without the diffuser you can't change the position of the meter within the box on screen - as you bring the meter closer to the screen it measures a smaller area of the screen, cancelling each other out.  Any change in the position witnessed within JVC autocal will just be due to the meter reading either a different area of the screen with more or less variation across it, or measuring the screen at a slightly different angle.  The only way to significantly affect the on screen "position" of the meter when facing the screen is just increase the light output somehow, which is kind of pointless as you're wanting to calibrate at a given iris setting and into a particular "slot" in the projector.

@Dominic Chan had a cute way of getting higher off screen readings by measuring using the i1pro(2)(?) off a white surface that was closer to the projector.  That way the projector is set up "correctly", you're just moving the screen closer to concentrate the light.  You'd really want that surface to be a screen sample if possible; though Dominic was using it mostly to overcome his lack of a diffuser for gamma measurements so I think he was just using any white surface.

Having said that, for just the colour autocal I'm not totally sure why it would make much difference.  Even at 65 nits peak white you should get quite reasonable quality colour measures even for blue, so it might point more towards the maths in either autocal or the projector not being great, or the projector not being linear enough for the simple algorithms the colour autocal uses to work well.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 16, 2019, 10:09:21 AM
It's a shame they've not improved the meter setup for the i1pro2 when moving to V11.  It was all a bit "afterthought" in its implementation in V10.

It seems V11 behaves in the same ways with the i1pro2 as V10.  By far the most annoying behaviour for me is that you have to re-connect and re-calibrate the meter every time you go into the calibration mode, so if you've just done one calibration you have to get it back down off the tripod, put in back on the plate, and then back on the tripod again.  If you're dextrous you can just about hold the meter onto the calibration tile with the tile rotated a few degrees without taking it off the tripod.

I think the positioning box for the i1pro2 readings from screen is completely bogus and serves no purpose.  Measuring off screen without the diffuser you can't change the position of the meter within the box on screen - as you bring the meter closer to the screen it measures a smaller area of the screen, cancelling each other out.  Any change in the position witnessed within JVC autocal will just be due to the meter reading either a different area of the screen with more or less variation across it, or measuring the screen at a slightly different angle.  The only way to significantly affect the on screen "position" of the meter when facing the screen is just increase the light output somehow, which is kind of pointless as you're wanting to calibrate at a given iris setting and into a particular "slot" in the projector.

@Dominic Chan had a cute way of getting higher off screen readings by measuring using the i1pro(2)(?) off a white surface that was closer to the projector.  That way the projector is set up "correctly", you're just moving the screen closer to concentrate the light.  You'd really want that surface to be a screen sample if possible; though Dominic was using it mostly to overcome his lack of a diffuser for gamma measurements so I think he was just using any white surface.

Having said that, for just the colour autocal I'm not totally sure why it would make much difference.  Even at 65 nits peak white you should get quite reasonable quality colour measures even for blue, so it might point more towards the maths in either autocal or the projector not being great, or the projector not being linear enough for the simple algorithms the colour autocal uses to work well.

Thanks for your feedback, I'm glad to see that your observations re the i1pro2 in relation to the positioning are the same as mine. 8)

Regarding the need to recalibrate the i1pro before every calibration (I agree it's cumbersome as it is implemented), I use the following trick (undocumented as my list is already too long, but I'll add it if you find it useful): I keep the i1pro on its tripod in position, I start Teamviewer on my iPad so as not to have to move my calibration laptop, and with one hand I hold the calibration tile against the i1pro2, with the other I select the i1pro2 on the autocal (on the iPad) and quickly press the measuring button. That way, at least I don't have to move the i1pro off its tripod and lose all the profiles etc. I use Teamviewer as well to monitor progress and control the software distantly. As long as a meter action isn't needed, that allows me to get more sunlight and watch less patterns :)

The SDR WCG calibration was OK even if not great, so I'll give the SDR rec-709 calibration another try when I can.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 16, 2019, 10:11:12 AM
The following additional sections are now live:
Basic: Calibration (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10390#msg10390)
Basic: Results and optional verification with another software
Advanced:
(https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10391#msg10391)Using a  3D LUT for Reference Calibration after the Autocal

(https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10408#msg10408)
It's a bit of a brain dump, which I wrote fairly quickly after my initial attempts yesterday. It's likely to still contain typos and a few factual errors, so if you spot any please let me know either by PM or in the thread.

I added quite a few measurements, I'll try to add more later.

I just wanted to complete the basic section so that everyone can have a go and let us know their results. The full index is in the second post here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10383#msg10383).

Of course I'll update the thread when/if I post anything new or make any significant changes, but it might be a while as  I need to catch up with work.

Good luck with the Autocal everyone :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: bobof on March 16, 2019, 10:50:34 AM
Regarding the need to recalibrate the i1pro before every calibration (I agree it's cumbersome as it is implemented), I use the following trick (undocumented as my list is already too long, but I'll add it if you find it useful): I keep the i1pro on its tripod in position, I start Teamviewer on my iPad so as not to have to move my calibration laptop, and with one hand I hold the calibration tile against the i1pro2, with the other I select the i1pro2 on the autocal (on the iPad) and quickly press the measuring button. That way, at least I don't have to move the i1pro off its tripod and lose all the profiles etc. I use Teamviewer as well to monitor progress and control the software distantly. As long as a meter action isn't needed, that allows me to get more sunlight and watch less patterns :)
That's what I meant by if you're dextrous; it sounds like you use the same approach I do when I've used the I1pro2 in that way.  It's a bit of a handful (at least for me with my micro-hands lol) to to grip the tile onto the meter (plus for this setup my meter is often up in the air fairly high up), and I'm always just a little bit sceptical that it is a particularly good approach (though I do it myself) because the i1pro2 does to wavelength calibration off the tile using the green LED, there is both a chance of the tile not being completely flat, and also some scope for light from the PJ to leak around as the calibration happens.

If the JVC autocal utility worked a bit more sensibly - just doing one calibration on the meter on demand - it wouldn't be so tempting to take these short cuts, it's the case of a bad workflow promoting slightly risky behaviour.  When I'm trying to do stuff properly in other SW I usually shove the meter and tile under a black piece of cloth for the calibration measure, or at least press the hide button on the PJ to make the room darker.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 16, 2019, 11:05:47 AM
That's what I meant by if you're dextrous; it sounds like you use the same approach I do when I've used the I1pro2 in that way.  It's a bit of a handful (at least for me with my micro-hands lol) to to grip the tile onto the meter (plus for this setup my meter is often up in the air fairly high up), and I'm always just a little bit sceptical that it is a particularly good approach (though I do it myself) because the i1pro2 does to wavelength calibration off the tile using the green LED, there is both a chance of the tile not being completely flat, and also some scope for light from the PJ to leak around as the calibration happens.

If the JVC autocal utility worked a bit more sensibly - just doing one calibration on the meter on demand - it wouldn't be so tempting to take these short cuts, it's the case of a bad workflow promoting slightly risky behaviour.  When I'm trying to do stuff properly in other SW I usually shove the meter and tile under a black piece of cloth for the calibration measure, or at least press the hide button on the PJ to make the room darker.
Nah, if you make sure that the tile is completely flat against the i1pro2 (which does require pressure on opposite sides) there is zero risk of light contamination. I've done this for years, without any issue. If there is any light, the software detects it and tells you the calibration is invalid.

But I do have very large hands, and the ipro2 is at a convenient height here :).

I agree 100% that it's not ideal and there are many ways to do it better, but I was just offering possible workarounds.

I also think that JVCs approach, while clearly an afterthought, is also to make sure that the meter has been calibrated before each calibration. Otherwise they would have to use a timer or some other way to enforce a calibration within the theoretical 240 minutes window (in reality, it starts drifting much faster than that). They probably wouldn't want to risk the user forgetting to do a cal.

The JVC development team is very small. I think we are very lucky to have, by far, the best free OEM calibration tool offered on any other consumer projector (possibly consumer panel, I don't use them).

As long as the software is usable, I'd rather have them concentrate on providing the best results, or improving important things such as the positioning window for the i1pro2, rather than giving them a hard time for ergonomics. When the software is 100% functional, then we can try to get them to improve interface stuff.

But if you think about it, what they are offering is already very good.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 16, 2019, 11:42:53 AM
@Bobof: I've added the i1pro2 improvements request at the end of the second section in the feedback to JVC/suggested improvements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10385#msg10385) list. Please let me know if that suits you.

Once we've gathered enough feedback from everyone, I plan to ask Mike to forward this list to JVC. :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: bobof on March 16, 2019, 12:16:30 PM
@Bobof: I've added the i1pro2 improvements request at the end of the second section in the feedback to JVC/suggested improvements (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10385#msg10385) list. Please let me know if that suits you.

Once we've gathered enough feedback from everyone, I plan to ask Mike to forward this list to JVC. :)
Looks good to me; I know it is an implementation detail but if they considered just adding the hooks necessary to do readings via ArgyllCMS they'd get "free" (they should really come to an arrangement with Graeme) updated meter support, with K10A, i1d3, Jeti spectro, etc.  I think he's already working on supporting the new Spyder X.  Doesn't help with the Discus but I've pretty much concluded that it's a nice tool that's never going to get mass-market appeal.

Agree with all the previous points (as I say, I resort to the calibration tile death grip myself)... My suspicion of the technique comes from having had a few failed calibration attempts doing this, which then just raised the spectre of doubt.  But there's no doubt I'll carry on doing it that way, so I'm obviously not that bothered...! :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 16, 2019, 12:22:31 PM
Argyll support is a great idea, though unlikely to be implemented. I’ll add it to the list where I mention wider meter support. I’ll also add the possibility to use the new remote control mode in Lightspace/Colorspace as an alternative, but I can’t see these agreeing to help competition that way (Argyll more likely than Light Illusion anyway). Thanks. [EDIT:done!]
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Mramsden on March 16, 2019, 05:56:32 PM
...

When I switched the PJ back on, the iris made a weird noise (hopefully a one-off) and I now have the new f/w and Autocal installed (see screenshots).

I had the same thing happen,  but also some other perhaps USB related issues; maybe order of procedure?

First USB I used was detected, and once I started the update, the three lights flashed in sequence, as expected.

Came back into the room 20 min later to find all three lights flashing. Update manual says "update error; request for repair with your authorized dealer." Gulp.

The machine wouldn't respond to the remote or to the power button. Turned off power on the power conditioner, waited 10s, turned power on ... voila, machine responded to remote and turned on: still on 1.17.

I wondered if it was the USB drive, so used a different one, but I also changed the procedure. 

In the instructions, it says plug in the drive, then turn the machine on. First time thru, it was already on to check the version, so I left it on. It had seemingly detected the update as it asked about confirming 1.17 -> 2.01. 

This time, I turned the machine off first, plugged in the usb drive, then turned it on and went thru the same procedure. Seemed identical, all three lights sequentially flashing in sequence ... but this time it completed, and turned itself off. When I turned it back on, now says 2.10.

So: was it the drive, or is it necessary to have the machine off when plugging in the drive? Not sure, but that might be something to highlight in the instructions.

Also, that the 3 flashing lights do NOT necessarily mean you need to call for service. Thank goodness.

.. Mike
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 16, 2019, 06:24:31 PM
Glad you got it back to life!

I don’t think it’s necessary to have the USB drive in before powering the PJ, but it’s certainly what JVC recommends in their instructions, so I would recommend to follow them. I did try that with my first drive, and it didn’t help it to be recognised.

My second drive was detected right away and I hotplugged it. Still the f/w update went fine, and when I switched the PJ back on, 2.01 was installed.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: gonzalc3 on March 17, 2019, 04:03:32 PM
Manni,

For color calibration, is it more accurate the i1pro2 than the spyder 5? 

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 17, 2019, 04:20:42 PM
Manni,

For color calibration, is it more accurate the i1pro2 than the spyder 5?

Yes, discussed in detail in Which Meter to Use? (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10387#msg10387) and in the Preparation (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10389#msg10389) and Calibration (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10390#msg10390) sections.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: AVSMike on March 18, 2019, 10:10:00 AM
No problem. I've updated the FAQ (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10392#msg10392) with the two minor issues I experienced today (one re the f/w update and the USB driver detection, the other with the mis-detection of my model due to the IP address reverting to my rs500).

Overall, especially if you have a USB driver that the JVC likes, the f/w update is a much nicer procedure than with older models. It takes a while, so you have to be patient, but it's straighforward.
The firmware up date time will vary, depending on what previous version you had in your projector. So if your firmware is 1.17, it will take longer to update, than if your firmware version was 1.20.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 18, 2019, 10:29:02 AM
The firmware up date time will vary, depending on what previous version you had in your projector. So if your firmware is 1.17, it will take longer to update, than if your firmware version was 1.20.
Well, I was updating from the latest V1.20, so if the shortest possible time is that long, people with earlier versions have to be even more patient :)

It think it also has to do with the USB drive speed. Mine was super old (and slow) as my more recent (and faster) one wasn't detected. There might be quite a few factors at play...
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on March 19, 2019, 08:45:46 AM
Hi Manni,

Thanks for your reply over in the other forum's NX owners thread about my calibration.

So I decided to just try out a full (gamma + color) autocal on my NX5 with my Spyder5.  Doing so actually fixed my high bulb issues completely (at least to my eye).  I believe this really did take me 90% of the way there to a decently calibrated image.

I found that I could most easily see a before/after comparison by moving my manual lens aperture between -4 and -3.  At -4 I was seeing the original un-calibrated image, and then moving it to -3 the color would very noticeably change to my calibrated result.

I am still a little bit confused though on the Individual vs Reflect to All option.  As I understand, on my NX5 only Lamp mode changes and lens aperture changes (in 4 groups) will not apply the autocal result.

So what I did was created a User1 picture mode (HDR color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, low bulb) and then I ran the autocal on that.

Then I created another picture mode User2 (HDR color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, high bulb) and then I ran autocal on that.

I understand I needed to do this because of the lamp mode change.

But now I also have 2 more picture modes, User3 (rec709 color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, low bulb) and User4 (rec709 color profile, D6500 color temp, 2.2 gamma, high bulb).

So from what I understand, these are already calibrated for me (since they dont have any different lens aperture settings) and I can't do anything with autocal to improve them without overwriting my HDR color profile calibration.

But color mode shouldn't necessarily change the calibration results anyways right?

I only use rec709 for when I do things like play YouTube videos, since all my local content is played through madVR and I have selected "this display is calibrated to BT2020", so as I understand, madVR puts my rec709 SDR video into the BT2020 container and it should come out looking correct with my NX5 in HDR color profile for both HDR and SDR video in madVR.

I guess let me know if my assumptions here are correct or if you see sometime that I should be doing differently, thanks!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 19, 2019, 09:49:58 AM
Hi Sirmaster,

Glad to hear that the JVC Autocal resolved your problem. Your Spyder 5 must be a good one, which is great news :)

Please read the calibration section (link in post 2) as it will answer most of your questions (assuming you've also read the JVC Autocal manual).

Lens aperture doesn't affect gamma calibration. It only affect color calibration. As you don't have a filter and have already calibrated high lamp and low lamp, yes gamma should be done for your SDR calibrations, and color should be done if the iris range is the same, otherwise you will have to redo them.

Reflect to all only applies to gamma, not to color.

It is possible that things work differently on an N5, please let us know if it was the case.

As I explained, we won't discuss madVR here as it's a complex subject and it would derail the thread. There are other threads I mentioned that will be a better place for support regarding this. I might open a madVR thread after the next public build is released. That would be a better place to discuss this in more details.

Others might have further comments of course, especially other N5 users.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 19, 2019, 04:19:13 PM
I only use rec709 for when I do things like play YouTube videos, since all my local content is played through madVR and I have selected "this display is calibrated to BT2020", so as I understand, madVR puts my rec709 SDR video into the BT2020 container and it should come out looking correct with my NX5 in HDR color profile for both HDR and SDR video in madVR.
Regarding this point specifically, I misread it earlier and thought you were talking about 3D LUTs. There are two issues with this approach which isn't madVR specific:
1) Although you can ask madVR to convert everything to BT2020, it's not advised with a projector because you are not optimizing calibration for each content. Usually, you will want the SDR rec-709 calibration to hit a peak of around 50-60nits, and the HDR calibration to hit as high as you can, with black floor and contrast always to compromise with peak brightness. If you use your HDR for both, that means that you have far less contrast and a higher black floor than you would get with a separate SDR rec-709 calibration with the iris closed down to reach 50-60nits.
2) This might be the reason why you can't create a separate color calibration for each, because you're using the same iris setting. If you were setting the manual iris to a lower setting in SDR than in HDR (ideally in a different range, so if HDR is at 0 then set the iris at -4 or below, as you have observed this is a different calibration), then you would be able to run your SDR color calibration (iris at -4 or lower) separately from the HDR color calibration (iris open).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on March 19, 2019, 08:18:25 PM
If the only reason is brightness control then I think I am OK.

My 140" 1.0 gain screen according to my light meter measurement is 19fL (65nit) in low lamp, iris 0 which is what I am using for SDR content.  Maybe a tad bright, but I like a bright image.

Then for HDR content I have madVR kick the bulb into high mode, still with iris at 0 and get 24fL and I have my madVR set to 80nit peak.

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 20, 2019, 12:31:49 AM
If the only reason is brightness control then I think I am OK.

My 140" 1.0 gain screen according to my light meter measurement is 19fL (65nit) in low lamp, iris 0 which is what I am using for SDR content.  Maybe a tad bright, but I like a bright image.

Then for HDR content I have madVR kick the bulb into high mode, still with iris at 0 and get 24fL and I have my madVR set to 80nit peak.
As explained, it's not just for brightness. With the settings above, you are sacrificing black floor (if not using the DI) and native contrast in SDR by choosing a target (19fL) that is too high. The standard is 14-16fL, and as you don't have much headroom for HDR (80nits is OK but not that much), I would personally set the peak in HDR to 12-14fL, no more than 16fL if you like it bright, so that you'll get a better black floor and native contrast in SDR, less DI artifacts if/when using the DI, and more of a difference when watching HDR. Going from 19fL to 24fL isn't a big difference, you're bringing SDR and HDR closer that way, by showing SDR too bright (assuming you have a dedicated room and no ambient light).

If you were setting SDR to reference, going from 12-14Fl to 24fL would not only be more "correct", it would also enhance the difference between the two. You'll get a better SDR (better black floor, better native contrast, less artificact if/when using the DI) and more visible improvements with HDR.

Now of course if it's about preference and you prefer a bright image at the expense of other elements, keep it (too) bright :)

If you only have these two calibrations, then color and gamma will be using different tables (low lamp / high lamp) so you can optimize them separately with autocal. But if you need to make a difference between two calibrations that use low lamp, using an iris setting fully open and the other at -4 or more would allow you to optimize them separately, though I'm not sure why that would be needed.

I go from 60nits post cal with the iris at -12 in SDR (-13 would be too dim at 40-45nits) and close to 48,000:1 native on/off with pretty much zero DI artifacts to 115nits with the iris fully open (both in low lamp, I could get 150nits in high lamp) in HDR. This 1:2 ratio between SDR and HDR is pretty good and both are (almost) correct/ideal (though I would take more nits in HDR if I could with low lamp, ideally around 150nits).

The main downside of HDR with iris fully open is the raised black floor and the reduced native on/off (30,000:1) as the DI isn't usable (to me) due to the too many artifacts with the iris fully open. So I'm eagerly waiting for JVC to fix the DI, hopefully in the next f/w update as they confirmed they were working on it. I certainly wouldn't use iris fully open in SDR if I didn't have to.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on March 20, 2019, 06:58:32 AM
As explained, it's not just for brightness. With the settings above, you are sacrificing black floor (if not using the DI) and native contrast in SDR by choosing a target (19fL) that is too high. The standard is 14-16fL, and as you don't have much headroom for HDR (80nits is OK but not that much), I would personally set the peak in HDR to 12-14fL, no more than 16fL if you like it bright, so that you'll get a better black floor and native contrast in SDR, less DI artifacts if/when using the DI, and more of a difference when watching HDR. Going from 19fL to 24fL isn't a big difference, you're bringing SDR and HDR closer that way, by showing SDR too bright (assuming you have a dedicated room and no ambient light).

If you were setting SDR to reference, going from 12-14Fl to 24fL would not only be more "correct", it would also enhance the difference between the two. You'll get a better SDR (better black floor, better native contrast, less artificact if/when using the DI) and more visible improvements with HDR.

Now of course if it's about preference and you prefer a bright image at the expense of other elements, keep it (too) bright :)

If you only have these two calibrations, then color and gamma will be using different tables (low lamp / high lamp) so you can optimize them separately with autocal. But if you need to make a difference between two calibrations that use low lamp, using an iris setting fully open and the other at -4 or more would allow you to optimize them separately, though I'm not sure why that would be needed.

I go from 60nits post cal with the iris at -12 in SDR (-13 would be too dim at 40-45nits) and close to 48,000:1 native on/off with pretty much zero DI artifacts to 115nits with the iris fully open (both in low lamp, I could get 150nits in high lamp) in HDR. This 1:2 ratio between SDR and HDR is pretty good and both are (almost) correct/ideal (though I would take more nits in HDR if I could with low lamp, ideally around 150nits).

The main downside of HDR with iris fully open is the raised black floor and the reduced native on/off (30,000:1) as the DI isn't usable (to me) due to the too many artifacts with the iris fully open. So I'm eagerly waiting for JVC to fix the DI, hopefully in the next f/w update as they confirmed they were working on it. I certainly wouldn't use iris fully open in SDR if I didn't have to.

Well currently I am seeing DI artifacts (massive blooming and yellowing) at essentially any capped DI level.  I mean maybe if I really took my iris to -10 or less and enabled the DI, but that is just too dim for my preference for SDR (plus it's only going to get dimmer as my bulb ages) so I also kinda of find that unacceptable for me.

I will have to keep playing with the settings, but so far I have them at what I have them at because it looks best to me.  My only concern before was whether there was something wrong about making my SDR content output in BT2020 color space with madVR as opposed to switching madVR to rec709 and the projector to rec709 space when playing SDR.

I certainly don't see a difference there, but I am new to using these different color spaces so I wasn't sure whether that was an appropriate way to run things.

I mean, my HDR is already as bright as it can be at 24 fL with the bulb on high and the iris wide open.  All I can do it seems from your recommendation is to close my iris a little on SDR to bring the 19fL down to closer to 16fL.  I've played with that, but I didn't like how dim it looked to me.

But either way, I don't see myself ever using the DI as the artifacts are way too distracting to me.  I also don't personally hold much hope for JVC "fixing" it with firmware based on their prior firmware update history but we will just have to wait and see what happens.  If they do fix it then I will certainly use it.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Murray on March 26, 2019, 04:53:19 PM
Manni I believe the gamma drift change issue using the DI on auto 1/2 on the new JVCs has been corrected. I had to have my NX9 replaced v.1.80. My new NX9 installed yesterday I was cheching out for issues and the bad white titles on black during fadeout/fade-in remained steady (no iris flicker) and the white credits remained total white, no yellowing, it looks very very nice to me!

However the RGB 24 8bit/12bit bug still remains, do they just not understand this is WRONG!?><)(*&^%
I have reported it again :(
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: DLCPhoto on March 26, 2019, 07:11:55 PM
Manni I believe the gamma drift change issue using the DI on auto 1/2 on the new JVCs has been corrected. I had to have my NX9 replaced v.1.80. My new NX9 installed yesterday I was cheching out for issues and the bad white titles on black during fadeout/fade-in remained steady (no iris flicker) and the white credits remained total white, no yellowing, it looks very very nice to me!

However the RGB 24 8bit/12bit bug still remains, do they just not understand this is WRONG!?><)(*&^%
I have reported it again :(
Interesting on the DI!

One other criticism Manni and others have reported is that the fade-to-black seemed a bit limited relative to the prior generation of Projectors.  Does it seem like this has improved as well, along with the yellow/gamma shift problem?

And how is it on end credits - very noticeable as on the prior generation, or minimal, as in the current generation with previous firmware?

Thanks.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Murray on March 26, 2019, 08:23:40 PM
Its absolutly fine on end credits these days unlike the past models. I have no issues on my NX9 about fade to black, its fantastic, however I cant comment on the NX5 or 7 as I havent seen them.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 27, 2019, 04:13:22 AM
Manni I believe the gamma drift change issue using the DI on auto 1/2 on the new JVCs has been corrected. I had to have my NX9 replaced v.1.80. My new NX9 installed yesterday I was cheching out for issues and the bad white titles on black during fadeout/fade-in remained steady (no iris flicker) and the white credits remained total white, no yellowing, it looks very very nice to me!

However the RGB 24 8bit/12bit bug still remains, do they just not understand this is WRONG!?><)(*&^%
I have reported it again :(
Hi Murray,

Thanks for reporting this.

This is great news and it sounds like a step in the right direction.

I'm preparing a report for JVC so that the other issues, especially blooming on highlights against dark background, can be resolved. It would also be great if they could close the iris further for us rs1000/rs2000 users, because the black floor is higher compared to older models. This is why there is less pumping on credits with the new DI implementation, but frankly I don't care about pumping on credits. I want better fade to black, that lasts for more than 1-2 secs. On the rs500, fade to black was good for at least 5 secs.

Did you check the MI:Fallout example I gave in my mini-review of the rs2000 (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10384#msg10384) (it's one amongst many)? Look at the car headlights during the scene starting at 00:05:57, with the DI on and the manual iris fully open (what most people use for HDR). Pause, then bring the menu up, and look at the original picture (what you would see without the DI, if the iris was on manual). Bring the menu down, and you'll see how the DI blooms the highlights, especially in HDR with the iris fully open. It's much less noticeable if the iris is closed to -7 or more.

Warning: only do this if you care about keeping the original detail in the picture, and overall picture quality. If you love the DI as it is, don't look for this. Once you've seen it, you'll see it everywhere. That's why I leave the DI off for now with HDR content, but I've used the DI in SDR for ages without any issue, and even in HDR before we got better tonemapping. It took me a while to notice the picture degradation on HDR highlights caused by the DI.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Murray on March 27, 2019, 11:56:20 AM
Sorry Manni I dont have that film to check.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 27, 2019, 12:19:06 PM
Sorry Manni I dont have that film to check.
No problem. Do you have The Meg or 2001 - A Space Odyssey? I plan to list timecodes for these as well.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Murray on March 27, 2019, 12:57:51 PM
no sorry Ive just started to collect 4K
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on March 27, 2019, 02:03:54 PM
no sorry Ive just started to collect 4K
That explains why you're happy with the DI  :)

If you want to know what I'm talking about, please give me a list of a few titles and I'll give you an example from these.
If you want to continue enjoying the DI in HDR, don't ask. :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on March 28, 2019, 04:47:24 PM
I believe good scenes to test are in The Greatest Showman when Jenny Lind is on stage singing.  Her dress blooms out quite severely with the DI.

Time stamps are 49:25 and 49:41.  Probably a whole bunch more times in this whole scene too.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Mark the Red on April 03, 2019, 11:29:22 AM
Long read through a fascinating thread.  Just got my dedicated 100% light controlled home theater complete with a x590r projector installed.  This is my first projector ever running everything through a dedicated HTPC with Madvr.  I know this is not a Madvr thread, but I noticed my image looks a little off with the factory settings.  Still looks great, but I realized a callibration is needed, leading me here.

@SirMaster:  Can you please let me know where you bought your Spyder5?  Sounds like you got a decent one and I figured since they are all MSRP right now, I'd rather just take the pie in the sky chance that I get a good one like yours.

My second question is whether you noticed an improvement in your colors with the spyder autocal.   Manni is crystal clear in his FAQ to not be so darned cheap and buy an x-rite i2 pro for color, but I am wondering if the spyder 5 did more harm than good.     Since I have an entry level projector, I cannot justify the $1k price tag for a i2 right now if the spyder does a good enough job.

Anyway, I appreciate the great thread and look forward to a autocal'd projector shortly.

  



Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 03, 2019, 11:50:46 AM
Hi Mark,

The Spyder can provide good results with color, but it’s hard to know if you don’t have another meter to check the results. So if you can’t justify an i1pro2, you might want to consider getting an i1display Pro, which isn’t supported by the Autocal but will allow you to check your color calibration with a free software such as HCFR if you don’t want to buy a paid for software, and possibly create a custom color profile to correct the Spyder errors.

Where you buy the Spyder doesn’t make any difference. It’s a lottery, and from the same reseller, and the same batch, you can get a very good one and an appalling one. Just get the best price and buy an express, not a pro, especially if you have a dedicated room.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Mark the Red on April 03, 2019, 12:23:10 PM
Thanks Manni, I did read you recommend the express, so I will go with this.  

The es-2000 can be had on ebay but apparently you need to buy a custom mount.  

In terms of color best practices, you recommend an i1 pro2 and using HFCR instead of autocal?     I've heard HFCR has a pretty steep learning curve, but I'm pregnant with the home theater at this point so I can't quit now.

On your projector using the autocal and i1 pro2, did it do a good job against HFCR baseline (my understanding of your post below).


Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 03, 2019, 01:25:08 PM
You can't have just an i1pro2, it's not usable on its own for gamma. It can be used for color, but you really want a colorimeter (profiled or not to the i1pro2) to do gamma calibration. The main use of the i1pro2 is color calibration and/or profiling a colorimeter for gamma work and faster measurements.

I wouldn't recommend using HCFR on its own, even with an i1 displaypro, simply because it's really time consuming to do a good gamma calibration. But if you have lots of time, of course you can get very good results with HCFR, just not with only an i1pro2. If you use only one meter with HCFR, get an i1pdisplay Pro, as it will allow you to do gamma and color.

Here is what I suggest: wait until you feel your PJ needs a calibration, get a Spyder 5 Express and run the Autocal. If you're good, enjoy, if you feel like the color calibration is worse, or if you'd like to make sure that it isn't, then decide between an i1pro2 (supported by the Autocal) and an i1display Pro (not supported by the Autocal) to improve color.

Alternatively, only run a gamma autocal with the Spyder and forget about a color calibration. :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Mark the Red on April 03, 2019, 01:54:28 PM
Thanks.  I figured gamma was my main problem.   Any HDR content seems way too dark right now.   I used Javs HDR mapping from avsforum to hopefully solve this, but instead it made it way darker.  I tried adjusting the target nits and the brightness gain was marginal to non-existent.

My plan is to run the autocal, and then use Dominic Chan's settings (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2739737-official-jvc-dla-rs420-dla-x570r-owners-thread-83.html#post56989078) (who posts here) as follows.   I might just invest in an es-2000 for the color to ensure it is done right.     I can read from your FAQ you recommend this for color checking, but is an es-2000 autocal color check enough or do I need to do additional color checking with HFCR.   In other words, do you like the es-2000 JVC autocal on its own with regards to color checking.....

THanks again for responding to my noob posts.  Your FAQ is pretty thorough I am just a little confused as to what I have to do post-autocal in terms of additional settings adjustments when using the spyder for gamma, and the i1 pro2 for color.


Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 03, 2019, 02:14:00 PM
If the ES-2000 works with the Autocal (I don't have any first hand experience with this, only reporting it's supposed to work, it's not officially supported) it should be fine on its own for color and there should be no need to use HCFR. At least that's the case with the i1pro2.

I'm not sure that your issue is autocal related though because HDR content shouldn't be too dark with the right settings. You're talking about target nits, so I assume you're using madVR, but that setting has little impact on picture brightness. Also Javs curves can't be used when madVR is doing the tonemapping, you need to use an SDR calibration.

I would try to get good results in passthrough first, to rule out your madVR pixel shader tonemapping settings. When using the JVC Auto Tonemapping with a disc containing valid HDR metadata (check that the JVC reports valid maxCLL/maxFALL), you should get very good results, especially if you adjust the auto slider in the PQ HDR settings to get the brightness you need.

If you can get good results like this, then your issue is more probably that you're using the wrong madVR settings, or the wrong base calibration in the JVC, but that's OT here. I plan to start a thread on the HDR calibration for madVR at some point, most likely once the next madVR public build is released. Make sure you watch this topic, I'll post here when it's created.

In the meantime, I'd relax and use passthrough with the JVC auto tonemapping, and I'd put the Autocal aside until you can assess whether your issue is calibration related or not. :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Mark the Red on April 03, 2019, 02:29:00 PM
So I should reset the Projector to factory defaults and let it run stock with regards to both SDR and HDR.   

I was following Dominic Chans initial settings, and that is the only change I made.   From my experience with new displays, I've always found the avsforums had good starting points for best practices /settings for mass produced commercial products.  I am aware there is variations between units in everything you buy. 

Anyway, I already bought the Spyder5 so I might as well try that.   I don't want to hijack the thread anymore than I have, but I believe I need to get back to basics before I come back here.   My head is going to explode trying to understand some of this; I am just not satisfied right now the picture out of the box, which brought me here.  

My understanding of the consensus was that you run Natural for SDR and HDR for HDR content after running autocals.   I am way out of my league right now on this forum and will show myself out.  Thanks again.  
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 03, 2019, 02:36:39 PM
Don't worry about being out of your league, we've all been there :)

I only realize now that you have an old model... My fault, I didn't catch this in your first post.

All the advice I gave you is irrelevant as the x590 might not support the same meters. You should be able to use the Spyder 5 with an older version of the autocal, but it won't support V11. It might support the i1pro2/ES2000, I'm not sure. You need to check what the Autocal for your model supports.

You should really post in the old calibration thread, for the old models, where Dominic does a great job. Our whole conversation here was off topic :)

Good luck!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: riddle on April 05, 2019, 01:16:55 AM
I use ES2000 and its works in Calman and in lastes version of JVC AutoCal too...
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 05, 2019, 01:37:16 AM
I use ES2000 and its works in Calman and in lastes version of JVC AutoCal too...
Thanks for the confirmation :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on April 05, 2019, 08:53:40 AM
@SirMaster:  Can you please let me know where you bought your Spyder5?  Sounds like you got a decent one and I figured since they are all MSRP right now, I'd rather just take the pie in the sky chance that I get a good one like yours.

My second question is whether you noticed an improvement in your colors with the spyder autocal.  Manni is crystal clear in his FAQ to not be so darned cheap and buy an x-rite i2 pro for color, but I am wondering if the spyder 5 did more harm than good.    Since I have an entry level projector, I cannot justify the $1k price tag for a i2 right now if the spyder does a good enough job.


 

I know this is late now.  I got my Spyder5 from B&H, but yeah it doesn't matter where you get it from.

As far as the results I got from color autocal, I can only so far describe it as this:

My NX5 stock out of the box low bulb mode looks great.  By great, I mean that the color in my test movie scenes that I am intimately familiar with seeing on a known well-calibrated display looks as far as I can tell, the same.

High bulb however looked very noticeably different and wrong to me.  It had a clear greenish tint to it and not enough red.  I could easily compare by simply toggling between low and high bulb and seeing the color clearly shift.

After running autocal for both low and high bulb mode, I was able to easily compare before/after results by changing my iris between -4 and -3.  -3 being my calibrated result (since I ran the calibration at iris 0) and -4 being the stock, before-calibrated result (since calibrations are done in groups of 4 iris positions)

I noted that the low bulb mode barely changed at all from the color autocal. This is a good thing as it already looked correct.

However, the big difference after autocal that I now noticed is that my high bulb mode looks exactly like low bulb mode, except of course brighter.

The fact that low bulb already looked good, before autocal, and autocal barely changed it and the fact hat high bulb went from looking somewhat poor, to looking great and looking just like low bulb simply gave me confidence that autocal and my spyder5 did their job well.


However, I cannot claim what accuracy my autocal result actually is.  Only that to my eyes (and the eyes of another seasoned veteran AVS member who was there) the results look great.  Again, these are subjective opinions on the result with the only frame of reference is having seen these movie scenes on a known well-calibrated display.

Anyways, that's my experience on it, and i would never go back to the stock color of my high bulb mode.

I do want to somehow show the results that I got and I may try to make a comparison video showing how the color changes before/after autocal.  However I do not know how well this comparison will show up on video or in photo, so I first need to see if I can get an accurate representation of what I see with my eyes vs what you will be able to see in a video that I can capture.  If it looks like an accurate representation, then I will post it.

At the end of the day, you should get a spyder5 for gamma calibration anyways.  There is no harm then in trying to use it for color calibration as long as you make sure you have your calibration backup (init) file.  Who knows, you may love the results as I did, and isn't that really what matters? (that *you* love how it looks).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: denist on April 06, 2019, 05:29:55 PM
Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to know if i can use the Xrite i1 Pro UVcut REV D for Jvc Autocal. I can get the device cheap just not sure if it will work for just color not gamma. I have he Spyder 5 pro for GAMMA only.

Please let me know before i purchase.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Clark Burk on April 07, 2019, 05:37:09 AM
I believe you need the Pro2 version at least to work with auto cal. You may be able to use another calibration software to use that meter for the color calibration and use the Spyder for the gamma using auto cal. 
Manni has a great first page with just about every question you might have answered. If you haven’t try looking that over. There’s a specific section on meters. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: riddle on April 07, 2019, 11:15:39 AM
Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to know if i can use the Xrite i1 Pro UVcut REV D for Jvc Autocal. I can get the device cheap just not sure if it will work for just color not gamma. I have he Spyder 5 pro for GAMMA only.

Please let me know before i purchase.

Thanks in advance.
Yes, for JVC Autoval will works only Spyder5 or i1Pro2. I use OEM i1Pro2 who works perfect and cost less than original.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: denist on April 07, 2019, 03:23:46 PM
Yes I have read the start of the thread and Manni states it will work with the i1 pro just might need to re initialise it more than the pro 2. I will only be using it for colour as I have the spyder 5 pro for gamma only. 

Thanks. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: riddle on April 08, 2019, 11:04:22 PM
Yes with others software like Calman this will works but its not for free.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 08, 2019, 11:46:41 PM
Yes with others software like Calman this will works but its not for free.
Although I haven’t tried it personally the original i1pro is supposed to work with the JVC Autocal, though it’s not supported officially. It can only be used for color due to the even more limited range compared to the i1pro2 (300nits max vs 1200nits).

I can’t recommend buying it, but if people have one they can try it. I would try to see which results I get with the Spyder first, as an i1pro might not be necessary. My old Spyder4 needed barely any correction when used with the Autocal V6 on the rs500.

I recommend getting an i1pro2 basic if possible for color work in V11, or using an i1display pro or better with another software and possibly correct the spyder errors, but that’s an advanced procedure.

There are free software that support all the x-rite family, HCFR or DisplaYCAL for example.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on April 12, 2019, 09:24:54 AM
@Manni,

I read in doom9 thread about you saying that you ideally should have separate calibration for rec709 and rec2020.


I was wondering this about my setup.  So the mode that I had my NX5 in when I ran autocal was HDR color profile, D65 color temp, Gamma 2.2.  But of course the autocal applies to all color profiles and all color temps and all gamma values.

In madVR when I watch HDR I have the calibration tab set to, this display is calibrated to bt2020, and I have the report bt2020 to display enabled.

However, now I am wondering about what is the best way that I should be playing my rec709 content?

The way I see it I had 2 ways that I tried this.  The first way is just to keep the projector in the same HDR color mode, and let madVR map the 709 content to bt2020 since the calibration in madVR is telling it that my display is calibrated for bt2020. But am I supposed to uncheck the report bt2020 to display checkbox when playing rec709 content?

The other method I had was to switch the projector's color profile to rec709 and to switch madVR calibration option to this display is calibrated to rec709.

Is there some advantage or reason that one way would be better than the other?  I am not concerned about the switching projector settings and switching madVR settings as I can have that all automated through madVR profile groups and network control scripts.


So put simply, given that I use autocal and only own a splyder5, should I switch my projector and my madVR to rec709 for my rec709 content, or should I just let madVR map my rec709 content to bt2020 and leave my projector always in the HDR color profile.  And finally given that answer, when should I have checked and unchecked report bt2020 to display option?

Thanks!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 12, 2019, 09:37:09 AM
I'm going to leave the madVR part of your question out as that's off topic, I plan to start a thread on the subject when the next madVR build is released and I'll explain all this then. But regarding the need for two different calibrations, here is the reason why you should do so:

- When playing HDR content, you usually have the iris fully open (low lamp or high lamp) so that you can get the max brightness you can get in that mode. This raises the black floor and reduces the native on/off contrast compared to a calibration with a closer iris setting.
- When playing SDR content, you usually close down the iris to target around 50-60nits (in a dedicated room). This lowers the black floor and increases the native on/off compared tot he HDR calibration with the iris fully open.

There is nothing to stop you from using your HDR calibration if your source remap to that target (yes you should have report BT2020 selected in that case to get the correct gamut), but you are raising the black floor and reducing your native on/off. If you use the dynamic iris, this can be less obvious, but you are more likely to have more iris artifacts when the iris is fully open than when it is closed to -6 or less.

And if you don't use the DI, then the black floor is significantly higher than it could be for SDR.

If the SDR picture is too bright in your HDR calibration, you can use an option when generating the 3D LUT to lower the target (Lightspace offers this) but again, this kills your native contrast so it's really not recommended.

So yes, I would use two different calibrations, one for SDR rec-709 (iris closed to target 50-60nits, no report BT2020 option in madVR) and one for HDR content (if tonemapped by the source, an SDR WCG calibration with report BT2020 checked in madVR) with the iris fully open to get as much brightness as you can for the HDR highlights.

Of course, if you don't get more than 50nits in HDR without the filter in the highest lamp setting you are happy to use, then you can use the same calibration for both, as you have no choice and nothing to gain from having to separate calibrations given that even in HDR you don't have enough brightness for SDR (so closing the iris isn't a preferable option for SDR).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on April 12, 2019, 09:48:55 AM
OK thanks.  In my case then I think it wont end up mattering which way I do it then.

I don't use the DI, because the artifacts for me are terrible.

I will just have to decide if I want to run high lamp then for SDR and close my iris for increased on/off contrast.  If I use low lamp with iris wide open, then my rec709 content is not too bright, at least IMO.  It's 68fL according to my meter.  This is how I have been watching my rec709 content so far and I would not want it any dimmer.

I know closing the iris increases on/off contrast and lowers black floor, but IMO that is not worth my image looking too dim and dull to me.  It only takes like -2 on my iris to bring my brightness down to 60fL and anything less than that and it's just too dim to my eyes.  Plus my bulb is new, it's only going to get dimmer on it's own and sooner or later I will be below 60fL at iris 0 anyways.

I would have to play my rec709 in high bulb and then I could close my iris, but I'm not sure if the increased bulb wear and louder fan is worth the increase I would get in contrast.  And I doubt I am getting a lower black floor if I am using high bulb over low bulb even with the iris bringing my fL down in high bulb.

All I can do is hope that they improve the auto DI so that I can use that at some point.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 12, 2019, 10:39:56 AM
I agree that if you're happy with 68nits in SDR it's not worth having two calibrations. -2 on the iris won't make a huge difference to the black floor or to the iris artifacts. You need to close the iris to -6 or lower to start reducing the artifacts significantly.

I have 60nits in SDR with the iris at -13 and 115nits in HDR (low lamp, iris open, I could get around 140nits in high lamp). In this situation having two calibrations makes a lot more sense.

I don't use the DI in HDR either due to the artifacts, but in SDR with the above settings it's fine. Hopefully there is a fix coming. All the issues have been reported to JVC.

One question, as you seem to notice the artifacts, which ones do you notice:

- the yellowing bug on whites, especially visible coming out of black (Lucy, Mad Max Furty Road)?
- the crushing of the highlights on small bright objects against dark background (car headlights in MI:Fallout at from 00:05:50, spotlights in 2001 at 00:)50:56, subs spotlights in The Meg at 00:08:49)?

It looks like not everyone (including people whose eyes I trust) can reproduce the second kind, and I'd like to know I'm not the only one seeing these. I wonder if there is something in my setup that triggers this (though it happens with all sources, whether the source does the tonemapping, say madVR, or the JVC does the tonemapping, for example with the UB900 or an Oppo 203 as the source sending HDR passthrough.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: David Vaughn on April 12, 2019, 11:31:01 AM
I agree that if you're happy with 68nits in SDR it's not worth having two calibrations. -2 on the iris won't make a huge difference to the black floor or to the iris artifacts. You need to close the iris to -6 or lower to start reducing the artifacts significantly.

I have 60nits in SDR with the iris at -13 and 115nits in HDR (low lamp, iris open, I could get around 140nits in high lamp). In this situation having two calibrations makes a lot more sense.

I don't use the DI in HDR either due to the artifacts, but in SDR with the above settings it's fine. Hopefully there is a fix coming. All the issues have been reported to JVC.

One question, as you seem to notice the artifacts, which ones do you notice:

- the yellowing bug on whites, especially visible coming out of black (Lucy, Mad Max Furty Road)?
- the crushing of the highlights on small bright objects against dark background (car headlights in MI:Fallout at from 00:05:50, spotlights in 2001 at 00:)50:56, subs spotlights in The Meg at 00:08:49)?

It looks like not everyone (including people whose eyes I trust) can reproduce the second kind, and I'd like to know I'm not the only one seeing these. I wonder if there is something in my setup that triggers this (though it happens with all sources, whether the source does the tonemapping, say madVR, or the JVC does the tonemapping, for example with the UB900 or an Oppo 203 as the source sending HDR passthrough.
Manni...I think he said foot lamberts, not nits!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on April 12, 2019, 11:31:46 AM
One question, as you seem to notice the artifacts, which ones do you notice:

- the yellowing bug on whites, especially visible coming out of black (Lucy, Mad Max Furty Road)?
- the crushing of the highlights on small bright objects against dark background (car headlights in MI:Fallout at from 00:05:50, spotlights in 2001 at 00:)50:56, subs spotlights in The Meg at 00:08:49)?
I see both very severely.  For yellowing, I can simply have like my MPC-HC window open but no video loaded so it's a black screen in the middle, but there is the MPC-HC GUI like around the seek bar that's supposed to be white or light grey.  It's very clearly yellow when my DI is on auto.  As for the highlight clipping, I see that all over on pretty much any film I watch.  I've seen it in Greatest Showman, House with a clock in its walls, Alien Covenant, Bladerunner 2049, etc.  Yes, it's just when there's bright elements in a dark scene.

And then opening up the projector menu makes both artifacts disappear (since it's forcing the iris open.)

So does another big WI AVS guy who has been over to my place more than a few times.  He sees it the same as me.

Also we both see both artifacts on his NX7 at his place as well.

And yes we see them whether we are doing HDr-SDR in madVR, or plain SDR, or HDR tone-mapping them with the JVC itself. Though it does change the severity of the clipping, but that seems to be mostly a factor of how far the iris is clamping down wihch is affected by the content, or how the content is being rendered.

I believe that the farther the auto DI moves the iris away from it's maximal allowed position you have it set at, the worse the artifact is, which is why it's lessened when you start the iris off at a partially closed state.


However, I will say that We both were not able to trigger the clipping/blooming artifact on another friend's NX9 in the usual scenes that worked on our NX5 and NX7.  The NX9 was on firmware 1.17, but he has since sold it so we can't look at that anymore.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on April 12, 2019, 11:35:09 AM
Manni...I think he said foot lamberts, not nits!
LOL obviously a mistake...  My meter says 20.2fc when it's measured with my NX5 projecting on my 140" diagonal 1.0 gain 1.9:1 screen when positioned at the absolute closest possible throw (13'10").  This is 69.21 nits.

In high bulb it increases to 27.1fc (92.85 nits).

I just really like how the image looks at that setting for SDR even though I know it's a little brighter than the 16fL many people target.  I've tried closing down my iris a little, but it doesn't really look better to me.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 12, 2019, 11:39:09 AM
Well re the DI it might very well be that this is a difference between the N7 and N9 because the friend whose eyes I trust who can’t reproduce has an N9 too (with 2.04 fw). Thanks for confirming that I’m not the only one to see this, and good to know that it can be fixed.

Yes I mentally corrected to 68nits when I read, but thanks to Dave for pointing it out!

68nits for SDR is fine. I can go up to 70nits because sometimes one less click on the iris and you’re below 50nits, and I’d rather be a bit too bright than a bit too dim.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: David Vaughn on April 12, 2019, 01:28:08 PM
Well re the DI it might very well be that this is a difference between the N7 and N9 because the friend whose eyes I trust who can’t reproduce has an N9 too (with 2.04 fw). Thanks for confirming that I’m not the only one to see this, and good to know that it can be fixed.

Yes I mentally corrected to 68nits when I read, but thanks to Dave for pointing it out!

68nits for SDR is fine. I can go up to 70nits because sometimes one less click on the iris and you’re below 50nits, and I’d rather be a bit to bright than a bit too dim.
I had to double-check myself...I was wondering if he was watching his display with sunglasses on :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: gonzalc3 on April 14, 2019, 06:52:15 AM
Calibrating color with the i1pro2 makes a huge difference. No more dealing with spreadsheets to fix the spyder’s error is a big plus. For gamma, the spyder 5 still works great though.

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 14, 2019, 07:01:55 AM
Calibrating color with the i1pro2 makes a huge difference. No more dealing with spreadsheets to fix the spyder’s error is a big plus. For gamma, the spyder 5 still works great though.
Yes, that's the main advantage of using the i1pro2 for color :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: riddle on April 17, 2019, 09:05:56 AM
Yes, that's the main advantage of using the i1pro2 for color :)
Hi, can you upload your workout template from Calman?

Thanks...
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 17, 2019, 09:57:30 AM
Hi, can you upload your workout template from Calman?

Thanks...
Do you mean my workflow? It's only readable if you have Calman Ultimate, as it's not compatible with non-ultimate versions unfortunately. There is nothing really original in it, mostly a collection of layouts I've found and adapted over the years. I use three different workflows, one for SDR DCI-P3, one for HDR BT2020 and one for Rec-709. They are mostly similar with a few variations, primarily settings and a few layouts.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: riddle on April 17, 2019, 10:44:42 AM
Do you mean my workflow? It's only readable if you have Calman Ultimate, as it's not compatible with non-ultimate versions unfortunately. There is nothing really original in it, mostly a collection of layouts I've found and adapted over the years. I use three different workflows, one for SDR DCI-P3, one for HDR BT2020 and one for Rec-709. They are mostly similar with a few variations, primarily settings and a few layouts.
I use Video PRO edition who is reale close to Ultimate, most of time i tryed IS advanced profile or ISF and your profile looks nice...
I have many question, but where to start. Will you create some tutorial for this MadVR calibrating or you can give me some advice?

https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1850.0;attach=2609

This is you projector seting?

Thanks
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 17, 2019, 12:15:10 PM
I use Video PRO edition who is reale close to Ultimate, most of time i tryed IS advanced profile or ISF and your profile looks nice...
I have many question, but where to start. Will you create some tutorial for this MadVR calibrating or you can give me some advice?

https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1850.0;attach=2609

This is you projector seting?

Thanks
Video Pro won't read Ultimate workflows unfortunately, sorry.

My recommended settings for these PJs are described in... the recommended settings section (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10388#msg10388) in this thread :)
Please read the first posts if you haven't already. There are a few brief notes specifically on madVR, but it's off topic here.

I intend to start a thread on calibrating these projectors for HDR with madVR, but as stated many times I don't plan do this until there is a public release of madVR with the final settings. Unfortunately I don't have the time to provide support for this and there is no support at the moment given that it's still experimental and keeps changing.

As soon as a public build is released, support will be available in the main madVR threads and I'll post my recommended settings and calibration tips for madVR.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sparky on April 17, 2019, 09:09:33 PM
Hello Manni, this is Marc in Vegas aka "Sparky" 

So it is getting close to that time where I will be doing my first calibration of my NX-5 projector.   My question to you is the following:

I own a iD3, which I read is not compatible, "okay" so a bit of advice.  I am a novice calibrator - would you recommend I purchase a Spyder meter and use the autocal feature, or is it recommended that I use my iD3 with Calman and Lightspace (for my 3D Lut) and put my calibration skills to the test.


Note: I do want to progress as a calibrator, but I also want my NX-5 too show an accurate image.  What would recommend?  

Thanks you Manni

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 18, 2019, 12:22:50 AM
Hi Sparky,

Doing a bit of manual calibration to understand the basics is always a good idea, so I suggest you see what you get with your i1d3 using Calman and Lightspace. Setting the greyscale manually (you can use the i1d3 and another software to adjust gamma using the JVC Autocal without having one of the supported meters) or adding a 1D/3D LUT as you have a LUT holder should improve things significantly. Then you can decide if you get good enough results or if you want to get a Spyder and move things further, especially gamma-wise. Sometimes you'll be fine for a while, then realise as the projector ages that improving the baseline before running a 3D LUT actually improves the results.

There are a few calibration guides out that are excellent to teach the basics (for example by Tom Huffman and KAL) so don't hesitate to peruse these to get an idea of the underlying science. Just don't use the JVC CMS except for training purposes, it's not linear and will likely make things worse if you don't know how to compensate for this issue. You can get decent results if you don't aim for the targets at 100% saturation. If you do, you'll get nice looking charts (unless you check saturation tracking) but an undersaturated picture. You'll get much better results for color using the Autocal and/or a 3D LUT.

Personally, I use autocal because I believe in getting the best possible baseline before deciding on whether to use a 3D LUT or not, and if I do using the smallest possible LUT that gives me reference results. I don't see the point in creating a 21point LUT that takes 5 hours to create if I can get reference results with a Lightning LUT that takes only 10 minutes, thanks to a good baseline.

I could get similar results for gamma manually, but I prefer to calibrate in half an hour every 200 hours or so than spending two hours or more to get the same results every 500 hours.

If you're willing to spend the time learning, try to get the best with what you have. Deciding whether you need more will be easier :)

Then come back when/if you decide to take things further with the Autocal...
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sparky on April 18, 2019, 02:47:12 AM
Thank you for the advice Manny! I will follow-up after a couple of weeks in the approptriate thread with my calibration results for my unit.  

I am tempted to handle the color management through the autocal, because I do not know of another method to avoid the oversaturation, unless I just lower the saturation targets and use trial and error.   The Spyder is a small investment.   
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 18, 2019, 03:08:11 AM
Your 3D LUT  should be able to deal with the oversaturation, but a Spyder is indeed a small investment, and as you have an i1d3 and other software you'll be able to check and optimise the results afterwards, which will probably be needed for color. Gamma should be fine.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Jbarteli on April 19, 2019, 01:07:25 AM
Hi, total noob here with calibration.

I have just bought a NX5 which is calibrated, but my dealer is a 2 hours drive and don't want to go there everytime my NX5 needs calibration. How good is the auto-cal against manual calibration? And can a noob do this?

I'm using a htpc with madvr for my main viewing, what real life benefits does 3Dlut have?

Thank you and keep up the good work!!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 19, 2019, 01:57:56 AM
Hi there,

Congrats on your new projector :)

Autocal can do worse, the same or better than a manual calibration, depending on how competent you are with a manual calibration, how much time you are ready to spend learning and performing one, and how technically-minded you are.

If you are reasonably technically-minded, a noob can absolutely learn how to use the autocal. Many have done so in the past few years, and will be happy to help if you get stuck once you've done your homework. The best way to start is to read the first 20 posts of this thread. :)

If you expect a push-button process where you don't put any effort in (starting by doing some homework), then I would say that you are unlikely to get good results, though luck always plays a part.

A 3D LUT can make a huge difference, or very little difference, depending on how linear the baseline is. I would argue that after a successful autocal, a 3D LUT bring little if you're not very critical. I run a small LUT because I want to be as close to reference as I can, but I could live without one if I had too. I wouldn't be able to live with the OOTB picture after a few hundred hours. Again, you will see the difference if you look at the measurements posted in this thread.

I would take it in steps. Look at the performance of your PJ as it's been calibrated. Are you happy with the results or do you think there are elements in the picture that could be better? If you're happy, enjoy the projector until you reach the stage where it has drifted enough to cause visible issues. If/when you think there is room for improvement, start reading the thread, that will give you an indication of whether you want to learn more or whether spending four hours driving every 1,000 hours of use of your PJ is a better way to deal with this.

If/when you decide to try, feel free to ask any question that is not answered in the Autocal documentation or in the first 30 posts of this thread (especially the FAQ). I and many others who have been through this learning process before will be happy to help. There is little to do until someone has actually tried, but it's much clearer once you are actually following instructions and doing it step by step, using both the hardware and software.

Happy reading, calibrating and most importantly, movie watching! :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Jbarteli on April 19, 2019, 02:34:18 AM
Hi there,

Congrats on your new projector :)

Autocal can do worse, the same or better than a manual calibration, depending on how competent you are with a manual calibration, how much time you are ready to spend learning and performing one, and how technically-minded you are.

If you are reasonably technically-minded, a noob can absolutely learn how to use the autocal. Many have done so in the past few years, and will be happy to help if you get stuck once you've done your homework. The best way to start is to read the first 20 posts of this thread. :)

If you expect a push-button process where you don't put any effort in (starting by doing some homework), then I would say that you are unlikely to get good results, though luck always plays a part.

A 3D LUT can make a huge difference, or very little difference, depending on how linear the baseline is. I would argue that after a successful autocal, a 3D LUT bring little if you're not very critical. I run a small LUT because I want to be as close to reference as I can, but I could live without one if I had too. I wouldn't be able to live with the OOTB picture after a few hundred hours. Again, you will see the difference if you look at the measurements posted in this thread.

I would take it in steps. Look at the performance of your PJ as it's been calibrated. Are you happy with the results or do you think there are elements in the picture that could be better? If you're happy, enjoy the projector until you reach the stage where it has drifted enough to cause visible issues. If/when you think there is room for improvement, start reading the thread, that will give you an indication of whether you want to learn more or whether spending four hours driving every 1,000 hours of use of your PJ is a better way to deal with this.

If/when you decide to try, feel free to ask any question that is not answered in the Autocal documentation or in the first 30 posts of this thread (especially the FAQ). I and many others who have been through this learning process before will be happy to help. There is little to do until someone has actually tried, but it's much clearer once you are actually following instructions and doing it step by step, using both the hardware and software.

Happy reading, calibrating and most importantly, movie watching! :)

Thank you for your reply!

I think my dealer is very competent with the calibration and the results are excellent!
My concern is pure on what will it look like after 200 hour and more and when I then do a auto-cal will the results be good enough.

I already read alot about it i this thread but couldn't find the real life differences between a manual "good" calibration and for example a auto-cal with the spider. But then again the spider does not cost that much so I will try it anyway and when the results are not what I expected then I can always go back for my recalibration.

Thank again!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 19, 2019, 02:57:28 AM
Regarding gamma, you can get similar results with a manual calibration, it will only take a lot longer.

Regarding gamut, you won't be able to get similarly good results manually because the CMS isn't linear. You need a good spyder (or a corrected profile) and the Autocal, or a 3D LUT to correct significant gamut errors.

Depending on the accuracy of your Spyder, you might have to correct the errors manually, which is complex, time-consuming and requires a known accurate meter and another software. That's the lottery associated with Spyder accuracy for color calibration.

I didn't compare a manual calibration and the autocal because I don't do manual calibrations anymore :)

I run a gamma autocal with the Spyder 5, a color autocal with the i1pro2, and a Ligthning 3D LUT for madVR with Calman using the Discus trained to the i1pro2. This takes about 30 minutes overall. So you can see what each step improves in the results I've already posted.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Jbarteli on April 19, 2019, 04:11:07 AM
So you are saying that if I buy a spider and do a auto-cal for gamma the results will be better then the manual gamma calibration by my isf calibrator?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 19, 2019, 04:42:58 AM
So you are saying that if I buy a spider and do a auto-cal for gamma the results will be better then the manual gamma calibration by my isf calibrator?
No, I never said that. Please re-read my posts. I said that an autocal could provide better, worse or similar results as a manual calibration, depending on the amount of skills and time dedicated to each option. An Autocal is usually faster than a thorough manual gamma calibration, but it's certainly not always better. You can easily completely wreck a very good manual calibration with a botched autocal. And you can also significantly improve a poor manual calibration with a good Autocal.

I don't know your calibrator, I have no reason to suspect that the calibration isn't good (provided that your screen was taken into account), which is why I suggested that you look at the picture and enjoy watching movies if you're happy with your current calibration (as it sounds like you are). It will always be time to come back and investigate when/if the picture shifts and becomes lacking :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jbn008 on April 19, 2019, 06:23:34 PM
Regarding gamma, you can get similar results with a manual calibration, it will only take a lot longer.

Regarding gamut, you won't be able to get similarly good results manually because the CMS isn't linear. You need a good spyder (or a corrected profile) and the Autocal, or a 3D LUT to correct significant gamut errors.

Depending on the accuracy of your Spyder, you might have to correct the errors manually, which is complex, time-consuming and requires a known accurate meter and another software. That's the lottery associated with Spyder accuracy for color calibration.

I didn't compare a manual calibration and the autocal because I don't do manual calibrations anymore :)

I run a gamma autocal with the Spyder 5, a color autocal with the i1pro2, and a Ligthning 3D LUT for madVR with Calman using the Discus trained to the i1pro2. This takes about 30 minutes overall. So you can see what each step improves in the results I've already posted.

I've had several eshift units calibrated using my same (THX) calibrator and he always did the gamma only autocal with the spyder5. Then calibrated the color manually with his i1pro2.  He will be doing my NX5 soon so would you recommend autocal gamma with spyder, followed by another autocal color with the i1pro2.  As well as leaving CMS off in the end.

Thanks,
Jeremy

Sorry, I put my post within the quote i was referencing.

Manni-

"I've had several eshift units calibrated using my same (THX) calibrator and he always did the gamma only autocal with the spyder5. Then calibrated the color manually with his i1pro2.  He will be doing my NX5 soon so would you recommend autocal gamma with spyder, followed by another autocal color with the i1pro2.  As well as leaving CMS off in the end."

Thanks,
Jeremy


 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 20, 2019, 01:55:49 PM
Hi Jeremy,

Yes, that sounds about right.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jbn008 on April 20, 2019, 05:25:03 PM
Hi Jeremy,

Yes, that sounds about right.
Thank you Manni
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: JonnyVee on April 21, 2019, 07:19:36 AM
Hi Manni,

What is the best way to test a Spyder for accuracy? You have it listed but no hyperlink yet.

I’m a new x790 owner and using a good portion of your information to teach myself. I don’t have i1Pro2, but do have a i1 Display Pro and Calman Enthusiast. 

Thank you!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: denist on April 22, 2019, 07:48:25 PM
Hi Guys,

I have the X5900(AKA X590) With the Spyder Elite and the i1Pro UVCUT Spectro REV D. I have done the GAMMA with the Spyder and when i do the Color i am facing issue only once did it complete the colour correctly. All future Colour calibration attempt fails with the colour going haywire. It completes the greyscale test and colour test. the it completes the colour calabration. When it starts the LOG and send to projector the RED colour becomes ORANGE and everything this is off. I ahve not done a re instate as it never asks me to. I am wondering should i put the i1Pro in the plate before pressing the i1 Pro Icon in JVC Autocal. Can this be the issue i am facing??

Many thanks in advanced.

Denis
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 23, 2019, 09:17:58 AM
Hi Manni,

What is the best way to test a Spyder for accuracy? You have it listed but no hyperlink yet.

I’m a new x790 owner and using a good portion of your information to teach myself. I don’t have i1Pro2, but do have a i1 Display Pro and Calman Enthusiast.

Thank you!
Hi Jonny,

The best way to test a Spyder for accuracy is to use your i1d3 with Calman to look at 100% white and a gamut chart before the autocal, run a color only autocal, set your screen type in the JVC to take the screen into account (you don't have to do this when using an i1pro2 reading off the screen), and see again with the i1d3/Calman if the Spyder made things worse or better.

If worse, you know that it's better not to use it for color but only for gamma, and if better see how far it is after the autocal. A good Spyder will only require a few clicks at most on a couple of channels after a color autocal. The more correction it needs, the worse the Spyder is.

You can't really see how accurate they are when measuring off the screen, as the errors might be very different from when reading off the PJ lens, and it's the accuracy when reading off the lens that matters with the Spyder, not when reading off the screen.

And looking at the accuracy when reading off the lens is also difficult because it depends on how accurate your reference meter with its diffuser. My i1pro2 isn't very accurate with its diffuser when reading off the lens, so I wouldn't use it to decide if a Spyder is accurate or not.

So do a precal read, run a color autocal, set the screen type, do a post-cal read and see how far you are is my advice.

If you are very far, you can always restore the last state as it's saved by the Autocal after you save the results.

EDIT: you can also measure witht i1d3/Calman after the autocal *before* saving the results, so if it's better you save, otherwise you can cancel before saving.

One important thing: when using another software, always use full patterns to match the pattern size used by the autocal. In fact if you don't use the full size of the panel the Autocal patterns are a bit larger because it seems the software use the full size of the panels, even when your source sends a 16/9 signal to the Autocal during calibration. This can cause some discrepancy when comparing measurements, but it should only affect luminance, not color.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 23, 2019, 09:23:23 AM
Hi Guys,

I have the X5900(AKA X590) With the Spyder Elite and the i1Pro UVCUT Spectro REV D. I have done the GAMMA with the Spyder and when i do the Color i am facing issue only once did it complete the colour correctly. All future Colour calibration attempt fails with the colour going haywire. It completes the greyscale test and colour test. the it completes the colour calabration. When it starts the LOG and send to projector the RED colour becomes ORANGE and everything this is off. I ahve not done a re instate as it never asks me to. I am wondering should i put the i1Pro in the plate before pressing the i1 Pro Icon in JVC Autocal. Can this be the issue i am facing??

Many thanks in advanced.

Denis
Hi Denist,

I have no advice specific to the i1pro UV Cut as it's not officially supported, maybe someone using it will comment.
However, yes you do have to put it on the plate when you first connect.

It goes like this:

1) Put the i1pro on its matching calibration tile.
2) Select the i1pro on the screen
3) After 1-2 secs, the pattern on the screen will briefly flash. That's when the i1pro is detected and connected.
4) Immediately press the button on the i1pro to do a white calibration.
5) The software should now show the aiming window. Simply ignore it as it seems to be entirely pointless for the i1pro
6) Set the i1pro on a tripod about two-three feet from the screen, facing the screen, aiming towards the center of the screen, making sure that it's not reading its own shadow (or any other meter shadow) but the centre of the screen.


Good luck!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: denist on April 23, 2019, 04:14:31 PM
Hi Manni,

Thanks and yes the issue was that i never put it on the plate for each CAL. And thanks for the tip to push the button when the screen flashes as i have never done this.

At least i can confirm the i1pro UVCUT Rev D works with Autocal V10.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: JonnyVee on April 23, 2019, 05:22:07 PM
Hi Jonny,

The best way to test a Spyder for accuracy is to use your i1d3 with Calman to look at 100% white and a gamut chart before the autocal, run a color only autocal, set your screen type in the JVC to take the screen into account (you don't have to do this when using an i1pro2 reading off the screen), and see again with the i1d3/Calman if the Spyder made things worse or better.

If worse, you know that it's better not to use it for color but only for gamma, and if better see how far it is after the autocal. A good Spyder will only require a few clicks at most on a couple of channels after a color autocal. The more correction it needs, the worse the Spyder is.

You can't really see how accurate they are when measuring off the screen, as the errors might be very different from when reading off the PJ lens, and it's the accuracy when reading off the lens that matters with the Spyder, not when reading off the screen.

And looking at the accuracy when reading off the lens is also difficult because it depends on how accurate your reference meter with its diffuser. My i1pro2 isn't very accurate with its diffuser when reading off the lens, so I wouldn't use it to decide if a Spyder is accurate or not.

So do a precal read, run a color autocal, set the screen type, do a post-cal read and see how far you are is my advice.

If you are very far, you can always restore the last state as it's saved by the Autocal after you save the results.

EDIT: you can also measure witht i1d3/Calman after the autocal *before* saving the results, so if it's better you save, otherwise you can cancel before saving.

One important thing: when using another software, always use full patterns to match the pattern size used by the autocal. In fact if you don't use the full size of the panel the Autocal patterns are a bit larger because it seems the software use the full size of the panels, even when your source sends a 16/9 signal to the Autocal during calibration. This can cause some discrepancy when comparing measurements, but it should only affect luminance, not color.
Thank you!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: JonnyVee on April 24, 2019, 03:29:46 AM
Hi Manni - One more question. As you mentioned, Autocal requires me to set the screen type via Screen Adjuestment mode. However, I have a Silver Ticket white screen, which is not listed by JVC.

Are there known mode #s that correlate to Silver Ticket screens? Specifically, white matte 1.1 gain?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 24, 2019, 04:05:17 AM
Hi Manni - One more question. As you mentioned, Autocal requires me to set the screen type via Screen Adjuestment mode. However, I have a Silver Ticket white screen, which is not listed by JVC.

Are there known mode #s that correlate to Silver Ticket screens? Specifically, white matte 1.1 gain?
I don't know the screen type that would match the Silver Ticket screen, that would be a question for JVC (though Mike Garrett or Craig Peer might know this, worth PMing either of them if they don't comment back here).

As you have Calman and an i1d3, you could try the following in the meantime, after you've run a color autocal:

- Get a 100% white patch on screen (full pattern)
- Set your i1d3 to read off the screen
- Cycle through the screen types and see if there is one that improves the reading rather than make it worse.
- Select the one that minimizes the errors, then run a full greyscale and gamut read with that screen type and check if the results are better across the board, or it it makes it worse in places.

What you want is a screen type that minimize the amount of RGB gains corrections you'll have to apply, especially in HDR, in order to keep as much brightness as possible.

There is nothing magic about each screen type, they just apply internal offsets to counter-balance the color shift induced by each screen. My Carada BW is fairly color neutral, the screen type is 006, it does nothing that I can see :).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: AVSCraig on April 24, 2019, 12:42:01 PM
Hi Manni - One more question. As you mentioned, Autocal requires me to set the screen type via Screen Adjuestment mode. However, I have a Silver Ticket white screen, which is not listed by JVC.

Are there known mode #s that correlate to Silver Ticket screens? Specifically, white matte 1.1 gain?
I don't see it here - https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/projector/screen/

M (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/projector/screen/)aybe someone can compare a Stewart Cima Neve sample with the Silver Ticket screen. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: JonnyVee on April 29, 2019, 04:02:27 AM
After some testing i chose the Da-lite Matte white (#7) as a match for the Silver Ticket. Not my final selection, as I redid my SDR-709 autocal low lamp passes yesterday and will redo Calman tomorrow night.

The Spyder 5 elite I used is quite accurate from a color perspective. Just a single -1 click for both red and blue hue.

@Manni - Thank for your instructions. Very very helpful. A few questions on my workflow ...

I have a user mode for SDR-709 and one for SDR-DCI P3.

For SDR-709 user mode (user1-picture mode, Standard-color profile, 6500k- color temp, Normal (2.2)- gamma, and low lamp) I did both gamma and color 33-point autocal calibrations @ iris 0, 4, 8, and 12. I’ll then be repeating with high lamp mode under User 1 as well.


When I run my SDR-DCI P3 (user mode 2, color profile - HDR, Custom 1 - color temp, User 1- gamma @ 2.2, low lamp) ... I’ll doing the same testing workflow. (1) Autocal gamma and color @0, 4, 8, & 12, and (2) run a high lamp set.

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 29, 2019, 04:46:30 AM
Hi JonnyVee,

Glad you found the instructions useful, and great to hear that your Spyder is a keeper! One click on red and blue is very good.

Re your question, you only need to run gamma 33 steps once for each lamp / filter combination.

Running it more than once simply replaces the last one.

To maximise low lights readings, I recommend running the gamma autocal with the iris fully open. You should then be able to run each following color autocal without having to move the meter.

So for you, it would go like this:

Rec-709 (User 1)
0. Set the meter so it's to the right side of the box
1. Run Gamma + color autocal low lamp iris 0.
2. Run Color only autocal low lamp iris -4,-8, -12 (no need to move the meter)
3. Set lamp to high, move the meter back during the next step otherwise the patterns will be too bright
4. Run Gamma + color autocal high lamp iris 0
5. Run Color only autocal high lamp iris -4, -8, 12  (no need to move the meter from previous position)

DCI-P3 (User 2)
Do exactly the same as above, as the filter is engaged so it's different slots for the calibrations with low/high lamp.

Once you've done this, you'll be able to change freely between iris, filter and lamp positions for these two calibrations.

Good luck! :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: riddle on April 30, 2019, 01:15:16 AM
Hi JonnyVee,

Glad you found the instructions useful, and great to hear that your Spyder is a keeper! One click on red and blue is very good.

Re your question, you only need to run gamma 33 steps once for each lamp / filter combination.

Running it more than once simply replaces the last one.

To maximise low lights readings, I recommend running the gamma autocal with the iris fully open. You should then be able to run each following color autocal without having to move the meter.

So for you, it would go like this:

Rec-709 (User 1)
0. Set the meter so it's to the right side of the box
1. Run Gamma + color autocal low lamp iris 0.
2. Run Color only autocal low lamp iris -4,-8, -12 (no need to move the meter)
3. Set lamp to high, move the meter back during the next step otherwise the patterns will be too bright
4. Run Gamma + color autocal high lamp iris 0
5. Run Color only autocal high lamp iris -4, -8, 12  (no need to move the meter from previous position)

DCI-P3 (User 2)
Do exactly the same as above, as the filter is engaged so it's different slots for the calibrations with low/high lamp.

Once you've done this, you'll be able to change freely between iris, filter and lamp positions for these two calibrations.

Good luck! :)
Hi, I'm a little confused now "Color only autocal" is directed to the screen right? Or front to projector?

And thats "Color only autocal low lamp iris -4,-8, -12" its on some specific saved setings?

http://www.heimkino-vorfuehrung.de/HDR-Tuning/Workshop_zur_JVC-AutoKalibrierung.pdf


Thanks
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: JonnyVee on April 30, 2019, 03:28:55 AM
Hi, I'm a little confused now "Color only autocal" is directed to the screen right? Or front to projector?

And thats "Color only autocal low lamp iris -4,-8, -12" its on some specific saved setings?

http://www.heimkino-vorfuehrung.de/HDR-Tuning/Workshop_zur_JVC-AutoKalibrierung.pdf


Thanks
1. You do the color only autocal with the Spyder facing the screen.
2. Once done the color/gamma at 0 iris. You go back to the settings screen from the main page of the autocal software. Under calibration type, unclick “color + gamma” and then click “color” .
3. Go back to the main screen and click back into the calibration screen. Once in the picture mode settings menu, adjust iris to 4 (then iris 8 and 12 on the 3rd and fourth passes). You don’t need to use the remote to adjust iris. All other settings stay the same.

i also have a X-rite i1 Display Pro and Calman. Once done autocal, I’ll use this to adjust gamma, white balance and color.

** Note. I’m using v10 Autocal and have an x790. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on April 30, 2019, 10:26:48 AM
Color or gamma isn't related to screen or lens. It's the meter used that matters.

If you only have a Spyder, you should always be facing the lens, not the screen, both for gamma and color. Unless you know that your spyder is accurate, or unless you correct its errors using a reference meter, it's not recommended to use the spyder for color, but it's fine to use it for gamma.

If you only have an i1pro2, you should only be facing the screen, but it's really not recommended to do a gamma autocal with an i1pro2, it's not reliable below 30% white.

If you have both a spyder and an i1pro2, then you use the spyder facing the lens for gamma, and the i1pro2 facing the screen for color.

Never use the spyder facing the screen, never use the i1pro facing the lens (or for gamma).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: riddle on April 30, 2019, 01:28:43 PM
Ok... and whit i1pro2 this will works in some progress with iris set mode (-4,-8, -12) ?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: den110 on May 01, 2019, 01:37:33 PM
Hi Manni

Great write up on using the Autocal software.  I am waiting on delivery of the NX7.  I noticed you recommended the i1Pro2 for color calibration. I was searching online for prices and noticed such a big difference in price from the Spyder5 and the i1Pro2 (over $1000).  Is that correct or am I looking at the wrong model?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on May 01, 2019, 02:38:58 PM
Hi Manni

Great write up on using the Autocal software.  I am waiting on delivery of the NX7.  I noticed you recommended the i1Pro2 for color calibration. I was searching online for prices and noticed such a big difference in price from the Spyder5 and the i1Pro2 (over $1000).  Is that correct or am I looking at the wrong model?
Hi there,

No the i1pro2 is a semi-pro spectrometer and can be quite expensive, though you only need the basic model.

You might also give the spyder a try with color, and see if you’s happy with the results. It’s a bit of a lottery but spyder 5s are not that bad and many of us have pretty accurate ones that deliver fairly good results with color calibration.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on May 01, 2019, 02:39:58 PM
Ok... and whit i1pro2 this will works in some progress with iris set mode (-4,-8, -12) ?
 Sorry I’m not sure I understand the question. Can you rephrase?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: riddle on May 01, 2019, 11:44:21 PM
Sorry I’m not sure I understand the question. Can you rephrase?

Like you write this:

Rec-709 (User 1)
0. Set the meter so it's to the right side of the box
1. Run Gamma + color autocal low lamp iris 0.
2. Run Color only autocal low lamp iris -4,-8, -12 (no need to move the meter)
3. Set lamp to high, move the meter back during the next step otherwise the patterns will be too bright
4. Run Gamma + color autocal high lamp iris 0
5. Run Color only autocal high lamp iris -4, -8, 12  (no need to move the meter from previous position)

DCI-P3 (User 2)
Do exactly the same as above, as the filter is engaged so it's different slots for the calibrations with low/high lamp.

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: den110 on May 03, 2019, 06:04:35 AM
Hi there,

No the i1pro2 is a semi-pro spectrometer and can be quite expensive, though you only need the basic model.

You might also give the spyder a try with color, and see if you’s happy with the results. It’s a bit of a lottery but spyder 5s are not that bad and many of us have pretty accurate ones that deliver fairly good results with color calibration.
Hi Manni,

Can you tell me exactly which i1pro2 you use for color calibrations?  Is it the one for over $1000?  I want to have both meters for accurate calibrations.  If possible provide a link - description and purchase for the exact i1pro2 model you have (the basic one?)

Dennis
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on May 03, 2019, 06:19:38 AM
This is the one I have, i1basic pro 2: https://www.xrite.com/categories/calibration-profiling/i1basic-pro-2 (https://www.xrite.com/categories/calibration-profiling/i1basic-pro-2)

Yes, it's more than $1000, but well worth it in my opinion, even more so now that it's supported by the JVC Autocal.

I might upgrade my Discus one day for a faster colorimeter (Klein K10a most likely if I find a good opportunity) but the only reason I would want to upgrade the i1pro2 is the need to do a white calibration before using it and then regularly during a session. Otherwise accuracy is fine for my needs, and speed mostly irrelevant as I only use it to profile my Discus, or for a very quick color Autocal.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jbn008 on May 04, 2019, 04:12:48 PM
Color or gamma isn't related to screen or lens. It's the meter used that matters.

If you only have a Spyder, you should always be facing the lens, not the screen, both for gamma and color. Unless you know that your spyder is accurate, or unless you correct its errors using a reference meter, it's not recommended to use the spyder for color, but it's fine to use it for gamma.

If you only have an i1pro2, you should only be facing the screen, but it's really not recommended to do a gamma autocal with an i1pro2, it's not reliable below 30% white.

If you have both a spyder and an i1pro2, then you use the spyder facing the lens for gamma, and the i1pro2 facing the screen for color.

Never use the spyder facing the screen, never use the i1pro facing the lens (or for gamma).
Manni-

I really appreciate the helpful thread. My calibrator is coming tomorrow and he’ll be using both meters (1 for gamma and 1 for color as recommended). I only want 2 modes: SDR 709 and SDR HDR (NX5). 

Do I need to run the autocal for gamma just once at: user 1 rec709/6500k/iris at -12 (or should it be 0)

And color twice
user 1 rec709/6500k/iris -12
user 2 HDR/6500k/iris 0

does this sound right?

thanks,
jeremy
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on May 05, 2019, 01:44:52 AM
Hi Jeremy,

Your calibrator should be familiar with this, otherwise please ask him to read the relevant posts.

It is recommended to calibrate gamma with the iris fully open, to limit the risks of getting zero values near black, especially when using the 33 point gamma.

Because you don't have a filter on the N5, you will only need to run gamma once for your two calibrations if you don't change the lamp mode for your SDR rec-709 and (I assume your meant BT2020, not SDR) HDR calibration. Otherwise, you'll need to run a gamma calibration for each.

So assuming you use the same lamp mode for both calibration (it doesn't matter if it's low or high as long as it's the same), you would run gamma at 0 with the Spyder, then color at 0 and -12 with the i1pro to cover only the settings you mentioned. I would sugest that he also runs color at -8 and -4, that way you will be able to adjust the iris as the lamp ages in SDR without throwing the calibration out (assuming same lamp mode). 

If you use low lamp for SDR and high lamp for HDR, then you would do gamma and color at zero for HDR in high lamp, and gamma at 0 and color at 0, -4, -8 and -12 for SDR in low lamp.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jbn008 on May 05, 2019, 04:44:52 PM
Hi Jeremy,

Your calibrator should be familiar with this, otherwise please ask him to read the relevant posts.

It is recommended to calibrate gamma with the iris fully open, to limit the risks of getting zero values near black, especially when using the 33 point gamma.

Because you don't have a filter on the N5, you will only need to run gamma once for your two calibrations if you don't change the lamp mode for your SDR rec-709 and (I assume your meant BT2020, not SDR) HDR calibration. Otherwise, you'll need to run a gamma calibration for each.

So assuming you use the same lamp mode for both calibration (it doesn't matter if it's low or high as long as it's the same), you would run gamma at 0 with the Spyder, then color at 0 and -12 with the i1pro to cover only the settings you mentioned. I would sugest that he also runs color at -8 and -4, that way you will be able to adjust the iris as the lamp ages in SDR without throwing the calibration out (assuming same lamp mode).

If you use low lamp for SDR and high lamp for HDR, then you would do gamma and color at zero for HDR in high lamp, and gamma at 0 and color at 0, -4, -8 and -12 for SDR in low lamp.
great.  Thank you Manni!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: kingsingh23 on May 05, 2019, 07:36:40 PM
Once the calibration is done...and I click save....why in the menu of the projector everything is still at 0.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on May 06, 2019, 12:38:24 AM
Once the calibration is done...and I click save....why in the menu of the projector everything is still at 0.
Please read the first post and the relevant posts/documentation, as this is explained in the basic section.

The Autocal doesn't change any of the user menu settings, it changes internal tables depending on the lamp, filter and iris settings. It is recommended to never use the CMS and to reset the RGB offset/gains before calibration, otherwise they will be applied during the post-calibration log, even if they are ignored during calibration, which will make it harder for you to assess if the calibration was successful or not.

Some adjustments might be needed after calibration, but is should only be minor if the meter used is accurate.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jbn008 on May 06, 2019, 12:01:46 PM
Hi Jeremy,

Your calibrator should be familiar with this, otherwise please ask him to read the relevant posts.

It is recommended to calibrate gamma with the iris fully open, to limit the risks of getting zero values near black, especially when using the 33 point gamma.

Because you don't have a filter on the N5, you will only need to run gamma once for your two calibrations if you don't change the lamp mode for your SDR rec-709 and (I assume your meant BT2020, not SDR) HDR calibration. Otherwise, you'll need to run a gamma calibration for each.

So assuming you use the same lamp mode for both calibration (it doesn't matter if it's low or high as long as it's the same), you would run gamma at 0 with the Spyder, then color at 0 and -12 with the i1pro to cover only the settings you mentioned. I would sugest that he also runs color at -8 and -4, that way you will be able to adjust the iris as the lamp ages in SDR without throwing the calibration out (assuming same lamp mode).

If you use low lamp for SDR and high lamp for HDR, then you would do gamma and color at zero for HDR in high lamp, and gamma at 0 and color at 0, -4, -8 and -12 for SDR in low lamp.
I really appreciate the help.  Unfortunately, we ran the 33 step gamma with the manual iris clamped down to where we were getting 20fl on screen (instead of the zero you recommended).  I didn't see your post until we were finished.:(

The post results were pretty good (only had to bump up the picture tone to +2 to track at 2.4), but I was wondering if I need to rerun it again with the iris at zero.  Or should it be fine until I have it recalibrated when the bulb ages?

Thanks again
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on May 06, 2019, 03:07:24 PM
If you’re happy with the results, don’t touch it until you need to. :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jbn008 on May 06, 2019, 04:59:18 PM
If you’re happy with the results, don’t touch it until you need to. :)
great. thank you
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Killroy™ on May 15, 2019, 05:24:52 PM
Anyone tried the new Spyder X on JVC Autocal yet?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: smhunter1983 on May 15, 2019, 06:29:54 PM
Hi everyone,

As the new JVC Autocal Software is available, I thought it would be useful to create a dedicated thread to collect here the best practice and calibration tips for this version of the software (V11) and the new native 4K models.

IMPORTANT WARNING: using the Autocal software changes internal tables in the projector. The first time you use it and save a calibration, it will create a .INIT file that contains the calibration tables as they were when the PJ left the factory. This .init file is saved in the folder you have selected in the software settings. There is no way to re-create this .INIT file if you lose it or delete it, yet restoring this .INIT file is the only way to revert the PJ to its factory state (doing a factory reset in the service menu only restores user settings, not calibration tables). So please make sure that you back up this .INIT and keep the back-up copy in a safe place. Also, using any software means that things can go wrong. It's a software. There can be bugs. Updating the f/w to V2.01, which is necessary to use the latest version of the Autocal, should be done carefully as there are opportunities for things to go wrong during that process too. If you read further, you acknowledge these risks and agree that you are using the software at your own risk. Please don't blame me if anything goes wrong, especially if you have not made sure to keep your .init file safe, or read and followed JVC's instructions for the f/w update. If you don't feel comfortable with this, please don't use the Autocal software, or ask a competent calibrator to use it for you.

EDIT 15-03-19: a new JVC Autocal (V11 1.10) has been released, along with a new f/w version (V2.01). See links below. You need to install the new f/w first before being able to use the new version of the Autocal. I have installed both and have updated the FAQ with a few minor issues I experienced, but it overall went well.

I'm in the process of compiling some info that I've started to post and I'll continue to do so over the next few weeks.

I've added most recently some recommended settings and detailed brightness and contrast measurements, as well as calibration measurements and a first impression / mini review of my rs2000, all linked in the next post.

I've also added advice for preparation and calibration, as well as advanced tips and results. The whole basic section is completed.

You'll also find in the next post useful links to external resources or direct access to specific posts in this thread, either in the "reference" part (posts 2-29) or the body of the thread as it grows up. [Note: For now, only the links to posts with actual content are "live". I'll add the links as content is posted. Please refrain from asking questions about a [reserved] section until the initial content for the section has been posted. Thanks!]

I've tried to organize the information to make it easy for beginners to get started and for experienced users to get more advanced stuff. If you have any questions regarding calibrating the 2019 JVCs, please feel to ask in the thread, however...

IF YOU'RE STUCK WITH THE SOFTWARE, BEFORE ASKING A QUESTION IN THIS THREAD: please read the documentation linked below, as well as the Troubleshooting/FAQ in the Basic section. Thanks!

More later...
When I calibrate with a spider 5 elite, on an NX5 to spec Natural, bt709, 6500k, gamma 2.2

The results seem way to warm/red 
I do notice in the calibration the first reading of red is 0.000

Should that be a reading of some sort?

I change over to the untouched stock DCI Picture setting and that seems to look much better. Any ideas to what I'm doing wrong??

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on May 16, 2019, 12:35:52 AM
Anyone tried the new Spyder X on JVC Autocal yet?
The Spyder X isn't supported by Autocal 11 yet. Only Spyder 5 and i1pro2.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on May 16, 2019, 12:49:52 AM
When I calibrate with a spider 5 elite, on an NX5 to spec Natural, bt709, 6500k, gamma 2.2

The results seem way to warm/red
I do notice in the calibration the first reading of red is 0.000

Should that be a reading of some sort?

I change over to the untouched stock DCI Picture setting and that seems to look much better. Any ideas to what I'm doing wrong??
Sounds like you need to read the basic section and the FAQ :)

If you mean that the first reading for red is zero during a gamma calibration, this isn't desired but you'll find in the guide how to address this with the meter positioning. This zero reading should only impact the RGB balance near black though, so unlikely to be related to a red push in the overall picture.

Please redo your calibration after having read the guide and all the recommended reading and show us screenshots of the calibration results and settings if you still have the issue.

Which content are you sending to this calibration, from which source, with which settings? If you're sending UHD content, you most likely need an HDR calibration (HDR color profile on the N5, as it doesn't have the BT2020 filter and associated color profile), with the correct gamma (PQ or power) depending on where the tonemapping takes place, not a Rec-709 calibration, which should only be used for SD and HD content (DVD/bluray/HDTV). Unless you're using madVR or a Radiance Pro, no consumer source sends DCI, so that's unlikely to be correct anyway. Please read the recommended settings section to figure out which calibration you should use according to source/content.

After all this healthy reading and possibly a new attempt, don't hesitate to get back if you still have some problems, but please provide more information: source, content, tonemapping settings if any (does it take place in the source? In the PJ?) and screenshots of the post calibration results (for gamma and gamut and color temp) if you still have this red push issue.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on May 16, 2019, 07:47:18 AM
I thought on the NX projectors that a color calibration applies to every color profile.

I did a color calibration in HDR color profile and my rec709 profile and DCI profile were also calibrated after that single autocal run.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on May 16, 2019, 07:57:03 AM
I thought on the NX projectors that a color calibration applies to every color profile.

I did a color calibration in HDR color profile and my rec709 profile and DCI profile were also calibrated after that single autocal run.
Only if you're using the same lamp, filter (not applicable for the N5) and iris range setting (for a color calibration). And that's for color temp.

The color calibration is also using gamut info (color profile), so if the gamut is different the white point might be corrected, but the primaries and saturations won't be.

I've always had a filter so I've never tested for this, my calibration for rec-709 and HDR (SDR BT2020 in my case) is always different (not the same iris setting at the very least, which I know is not the case for you as you use iris open in both, and always a different filter setting). So I always run at least two separate calibrations, one for SDR Rec-709, one for SDR BT2020/DCI-P3.
Title: HTPC Photos
Post by: Jeff R 1 on May 20, 2019, 10:05:58 AM
Photos
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on May 20, 2019, 11:00:31 AM
Hi Jeff,

Welcome here!

The first two photos indicate that the PJ is getting HDR content but that there is no metadata. Which title are you feeding it (movie name and country of the UHD Bluray)? Is it the same title with the third pic, which has metadata? Which source? Please use the UB900 to rule out any HTPC related issues.

[EDIT: replied in other forum, case closed here].
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: LeFric on May 27, 2019, 11:11:37 AM
Usted acaba de hablar de DI, ¿qué significa?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on May 27, 2019, 01:15:36 PM
Usted acaba de hablar de DI, ¿qué significa?
Significa Dynamic Iris, ma no hablo espanol, so English is preferred :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on May 30, 2019, 02:18:41 PM
New f/w available (V2.07). See link in second post.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jbn008 on June 11, 2019, 01:24:09 PM
Manni-

i recently had my projector recalibrated and realized that the calibrator had set the HDMI level to super white 16-255 (while running autocal and calman).  i noticed the image was very dark when playing madvr because the htpc was set to "full" so it was crushing the blacks.

My question is should i set the JVC back to "auto" or the htpc output to limited?  I'm really hoping that i don't need to redo the calibration or anything since the projector wasn't set to auto.  i'm not sure if changing the HDMI input level on the JVC would affect color and grayscale?

thanks again for your help,
Jeremy
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on June 11, 2019, 02:16:03 PM
Hi Jeremy,

That's a tricky one. Superwhite should never be used. It comes from an old THX recommendation that leads to a loss of contrast and brightness for no benefit with 99% of the content. I think that even THX doesn't recommend using it anymore. Let's proceed by elimination:

- You should never set the GPU to limited because the GPU would be compressing levels behind madVR's back. So let's assume that your GPU is set to RGB Full, preferably in 8bits due to the forced YCC422 conversion when using 12bits on the JVCs.
- If you want the picture to be accurate for desktop content (ie games) and not only video, your best bet is to try GPU Full, madVR Full and JVC Enhanced (all 0-255). That's the straightest and recommended path in that situation.
- If you're only interested in video content from the HTPC, then you could try GPU full (0-255), madVR limited (16-235) and JVC standard (16-235). Levels will be wrong for desktop content, but should be right for video content.

If one of these two work (if nVidia, make sure you use 385.28 when testing, 430.xx drivers might work but almost every single driver from 398.11 borks levels), then you're good. Otherwise I'm afraid a new calibration is in order with either of the above selected.

Let's not elaborate if it doesn't work, levels on HTPCs and madVR can be tricky to get right because there are too many possibilities depending on GPU, drivers, OS version, player, decoder, madVR settings etc, it would soon derail the thread.

Good luck! :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jbn008 on June 11, 2019, 05:34:25 PM
gotcha, I'll just set the hptc back to full and JVC auto (enhanced).  thank you very much!

last question, would changing back to 16-235 from super white affect the SDR calibration for other sources or would that be fine?

Thanks again,
Jeremy

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: 3ll3d00d on June 16, 2019, 08:27:38 AM
Is the Spyder 5 discontinued? Seems generally unavailable here (UK) while the spyderx is in stock. If so, any word on whether/when JVC will expand their meter support?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on June 16, 2019, 08:51:33 AM
Is the Spyder 5 discontinued? Seems generally unavailable here (UK) while the spyderx is in stock. If so, any word on whether/when JVC will expand their meter support?

Yes it looks like it's discontinued. No idea when the Spyder X will be supported. Maybe Mike or Craig could ask JVC?
Title: SpectraCal C6 HDR spectroradiometer
Post by: Tom899 on June 18, 2019, 07:18:21 PM
Back in 2016 I bought a Calman package that came with a SpectraCal C6 HDR spectroradiometer. I believe under the hood it's an x-Rite i1 Display Pro, but not sure?? Do you know if the JVC Autocal software V11 will recognize it? I have a Spyder 5 coming for Gamma and was hoping the C6 HDR spectroradiometer will work for color. I'm guessing it won't but thought I'd ask.
Title: Re: SpectraCal C6 HDR spectroradiometer
Post by: Manni on June 18, 2019, 11:47:08 PM
Back in 2016 I bought a Calman package that came with a SpectraCal C6 HDR spectroradiometer. I believe under the hood it's an x-Rite i1 Display Pro, but not sure?? Do you know if the JVC Autocal software V11 will recognize it? I have a Spyder 5 coming for Gamma and was hoping the C6 HDR spectroradiometer will work for color. I'm guessing it won't but thought I'd ask.
Hi Tom,

No, the C6 is an i1display3, nothing to do with the i1pro2. Unfortunately it won’t be supported by the JVC Autocal, but you can use it to finetune a calibration with Calman, either instead or after using the Spyder for color.

You can always try the Spyder for color, check the calibration with the C6 and Calman, and see what you get comparing with the before cal state. The Spyder should improve things, and if it doesn’t go back to before the autocal and use the C6 manually.

The new JVC are very close OOTB re color with the correct profile, so a Spyder to correct gamma droop over time is the most important.


Title: Re: SpectraCal C6 HDR spectroradiometer
Post by: Tom899 on June 19, 2019, 03:14:44 AM
Hi Tom,

No, the C6 is an i1display3, nothing to do with the i1pro2. Unfortunately it won’t be supported by the JVC Autocal, but you can use it to finetune a calibration with Calman, either instead or after using the Spyder for color.

You can always try the Spyder for color, check the calibration with the C6 and Calman, and see what you get comparing with the before cal state. The Spyder should improve things, and if it doesn’t go back to before the autocal and use the C6 manually.

The new JVC are very close OOTB re color with the correct profile, so a Spyder to correct gamma droop over time is the most important.
Thanks Manni, appreciate the information!
The RS1000 is coming today, and a Chief Projector Mount RPA 281 including SLB281, tomorrow.
As soon as I get it today, I'll temporarily set it up on a table and power it up to make sure it works, and to verify it survived shipping.
For the last 4 years I've been using a Sony VPLHW40ES with an eeColor 3D LUT box and Darbee in the chain. I'm pretty sure I'll remove both of those devices as they don't pass 4K. I used the C6 with ColourSpace CMS for the Sony 40ES, and I had it dialed in pretty good, thanks to Ted Aspiotis's help. I'm hoping the RS1000 upgrade will be a noticeable difference, even OOTB.
I'm looking forward to using AutoCal after a few weeks, at least for Gamma. I was going to get the Express version of the Spyder 5 as suggested, but found the Elite version on sale for just a few dollars more. I understand they are all the same meter but couldn't pass up the deal.
Thanks for your help.

 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on June 19, 2019, 03:36:13 AM
I hope you enjoy your rs1000 when it gets there, unharmed!

You won't need the Darbee or the eecolor if you use madVR. Otherwise, you can always keep them in a separate chain, using a HD Fury splitter (or two outputs in your AVR) to send 4K and 3D 1080p content directly to input 1 of the JVC and 2D 1080p content to input 2, going through the Darbee and eecolor. Most probably won't be needed though, the RS1000 should be close to reference after an autocal.

The S5 Elite is the same meter as the S5 Pro (exactly). The only difference are features in the Datacolor software (which we don't use).

It's not exactly the same meter as the S5 Express, because it has an environment mode, which the Express doesn't have (a physical diode is missing on the Express that's needed to support this). We don't use this either with the Autocal, at least in a dedicated room, but it is supported by the JVC Autocal and some seem to use this feature, especially if they have some ambient light in the room, or non-treated walls/ceiling.

So you've not entirely wasted your money buying the Elite over the Express. You have wasted it if the Pro was cheaper though :)

By the way, there is no quality/binning between the different versions. I tried many S4 and S5, some Elite units were far worse than some Express ones. It's a bit of a lottery irrespective of the model, but overall they are not that bad.

Enjoy your new toy(s)!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Tom899 on June 19, 2019, 03:39:50 AM
Thanks! Great information!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on June 19, 2019, 03:41:27 AM
Thanks! Great information!
You're welcome. I added a bit about the eecolor/darbee as well.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Tom899 on June 19, 2019, 04:02:48 AM
You're welcome. I added a bit about the eecolor/darbee as well.
Thanks. I'd like to try and not use them, hopefully it looks good and I won't need to.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Tom899 on June 19, 2019, 04:35:42 AM
One more question please.
OOTB, should I run on low or high lamp mode? Or a mixture.
17' throw, 134" Carada BW 16x9, all lights out.
Thanks!
Tom
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on June 19, 2019, 11:50:09 AM
One more question please.
OOTB, should I run on low or high lamp mode? Or a mixture.
17' throw, 134" Carada BW 16x9, all lights out.
Thanks!
Tom
With my 88” diag 16/9 Carada BW, I can just about get away with low lamp for HDR (120 nits), so I would expect that you’ll need high lamp in HDR, especially if you don’t use dynamic tonemapping (madVR or Radiance Pro). You should be fine to get around 50nits for SDR in low lamp.

So I’d use the BT2020 color profile (with the filter) in high lamp in HDR with the iris fully open, as the drop is only 10%, and the rec709 profile in low lamp for SDR with whichever iris setting gives you 50-60nits (or whatever your preference is in SDR).

Then it’s up to you to decide if you can live with the artifacts (yellowing and blooming) that the DI brings, especially when the manual iris is more than half open (-8 and above).

Apparently the yellowing is being worked on, not sure if blooming is being addressed too.

I suggest you try it (in auto2) once you’ve set the manual iris to get the desired brightness in SDR, and if you don’t detect anything, don’t look for them and just enjoy the DI :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Tom899 on June 19, 2019, 11:57:58 AM
With my 88” diag 16/9 Carada BW, I can just about get away with low lamp for HDR (120 nits), so I would expect that you’ll need high lamp in HDR, especially if you don’t use dynamic tonemapping (madVR or Radiance Pro). You should be fine to get around 50nits for SDR in low lamp.

So I’d use the BT2020 color profile (with the filter) in high lamp in HDR with the iris fully open, as the drop is only 10%, and the rec709 profile in low lamp for SDR with whichever iris setting gives you 50-60nits (or whatever your preference is in SDR).

Then it’s up to you to decide if you can live with the artifacts (yellowing and blooming) that the DI brings, especially when the manual iris is more than half open (-8 and above).

Apparently the yellowing is being worked on, not sure if blooming is being addressed too.

I suggest you try it (in auto2) once you’ve set the manual iris to get the desired brightness in SDR, and if you don’t detect anything, don’t look for them and just enjoy the DI :)
Thanks Manni, you mentioned a BT2020 color profile (with the filter)? Is this the filter that is only on the RS2000/3000? Or am I mistaking for something else.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on June 19, 2019, 12:04:58 PM
Thanks Manni, you mentioned a BT2020 color profile (with the filter)? Is this the filter that is only on the RS2000/3000? Or am I mistaking for something else.
Oops sorry, I was thinking rs2000/3000, in your case it’s the HDR profile and there is no filter indeed. I expect you will still need high lamp in HDR.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: den110 on June 19, 2019, 12:12:31 PM
Yes it looks like it's discontinued. No idea when the Spyder X will be supported. Maybe Mike or Craig could ask JVC?
I was just going to purchase the Spyder5 for Auto Cal on my RS2000.  Should I wait to see what JVC will do to support their software as opposed to trying to find one still for sale?  Hoping they will support the Spyder X.   
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on June 19, 2019, 12:42:36 PM
I was just going to purchase the Spyder5 for Auto Cal on my RS2000.  Should I wait to see what JVC will do to support their software as opposed to trying to find one still for sale?  Hoping they will support the Spyder X. 
If you need to run an autocal soon, I'd get a Spyder 5 while you still can. It's only a matter of time before they get discontinued everywhere.

If you're not in a hurry, you can wait but given the amount of work that JVC still have to do on more pressing matters, I would not expect the Spyder X to be supported any time soon.

If, by the time you want to run an Autocal, the Spyder 5 is discontinued in your country as well, you'll have to wait, and who knows how long it will take.

It would be useful if Craig or Mike could ask JVC if they have any plans to support the Spyder X, and if they have a vague ETA if it's in the works, so that their users can make a decision.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Tom899 on June 19, 2019, 03:26:57 PM
Oops sorry, I was thinking rs2000/3000, in your case it’s the HDR profile and there is no filter indeed. I expect you will still need high lamp in HDR.
Ok, thanks!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Kris Deering on June 21, 2019, 05:46:05 PM
Yes it looks like it's discontinued. No idea when the Spyder X will be supported. Maybe Mike or Craig could ask JVC?
It is being looked at, along with a couple other meters.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on June 22, 2019, 03:02:40 AM
It is being looked at, along with a couple other meters.
Thanks Kris. Do you know if they had a look at my suggested improvements here: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10385#msg10385
 (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10385#msg10385)
There are quite a few things they could improve in the software, along with supporting more meters...

Especially offering a correction matrix that would allow to correct any Spyder with a more accurate meter with the autocal software. If they supported the Calman matrix format, that would be great, we'd only have to copy the data from Calman into the Autocal, and we'd get spectro accuracy with any Spyder for gamma and color work. Even better if they could use the profile directly if we point to it. That way every time we update the profile in Calman, the Autocal would use the correct matrix automatically.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Set11 on June 22, 2019, 04:04:35 AM
I've been playing around with autocal + i1 pro 2 for my NX7. 

When I do the gamma calibration, the d6500 is always around 6400k (100% Grey) and 6700k (50% grey).
Any tips on how to fix this? I just end up doing a manual calibration with HFCR since that seems to be more accurate.

Also, it seems that HCFR needs to use its own driver for the i1pro2? and that driver is not compatible with Autocal. Am I missing something here?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on June 22, 2019, 04:27:59 AM
I've been playing around with autocal + i1 pro 2 for my NX7.

When I do the gamma calibration, the d6500 is always around 6400k (100% Grey) and 6700k (50% grey).
Any tips on how to fix this? I just end up doing a manual calibration with HFCR since that seems to be more accurate.

Also, it seems that HCFR needs to use its own driver for the i1pro2? and that driver is not compatible with Autocal. Am I missing something here?
Make sure that you reset the color temp settings before running the autocal, otherwise they will be applied when the software runs a log post calibration.

Some software (HCFR, DisplayCAL) need specific drivers for the i1pro2, usually Argyll ones. You need to disable them in the control panel using software that use their own drivers, such as the JVC Autocal. This should be explained in the HCFR manual, otherwise please ask in an HCFR support thread.

There is no such issue with Calman or Lightspace as they use their own drivers.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Set11 on June 22, 2019, 04:51:07 AM
Thanks Manni, the pj was never calibrated before and I have never changed the colour temp settings.

I had the same issue when I was calibrating my x7500 + spyder 5. Could it be that Autocal doesnt work well with ALR screen? I am using cinegrey 3d.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on June 22, 2019, 05:26:10 AM
Thanks Manni, the pj was never calibrated before and I have never changed the colour temp settings.

I had the same issue when I was calibrating my x7500 + spyder 5. Could it be that Autocal doesnt work well with ALR screen? I am using cinegrey 3d.
The Autocal works fine with my color neutral Carada BW.

Do you set the screen type to the correct code after calibration? I',m not familiar with your screen. If it isn't in the list, please get in touch with JVC, or experiment to try to find the closest one.

Also please confirm you've read all the posts in the basic section and all the tips, because there are quite a few situations covered there :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Set11 on June 22, 2019, 06:10:31 AM
I didn't use the screen adjustment code as the I1pro2 is facing the screen, so I assumed enabling the screen adjustment would just distort the calibration. 

Yes, I've read your guides : )

Another issue that I have is that I can never get the green to reach 100% rec 709. I always have a de of around 2-3 with my x7500 / N7. At first I thought it might have been a meter issue, but my i1pro2 also gives me the same result. So, again, it seems like my screen is causing the green deficiency? 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on June 22, 2019, 06:24:17 AM
You are correct re screen type with the i1pro2 facing the screen, brain fart on my part, I was thinking Spyder :)

The green deficiency is most likely a native gamut limitations. As long as your saturations track properly below 100% sat, you’ll never notice it in real content, so just ignore it.

You could try to use the filter for your rec-709 calibration (using a rec-709F custom profile as there is no factory profile that uses the filter for rec-709), but it’s probably not worth it if the dE is below 3.

It’s unlikely to be your screen.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Set11 on June 22, 2019, 06:53:44 AM
Thanks for the reply :)

Yeah, I'm pretty happy with how the colours are tracking at the moment, so I'll leave it at that. 
I'll have another go at Autocal after another 100h or so.  
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Ralph P. on June 27, 2019, 12:14:51 PM
Greetings,

The RS2000 has arrived...8)

Thanks to Manni for all of his hard work/input. I will be integrating the projector into my system over the next few days.


Regards,

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Dylan Seeger on June 27, 2019, 01:08:22 PM
Ralph, be sure to let us know your thoughts on the new projector here or in the RS2000 thread. Always good to have more and more owners discuss this unit here on the forum!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on June 27, 2019, 03:44:16 PM
Greetings,

The RS2000 has arrived...8)

Thanks to Manni for all of his hard work/input. I will be integrating the projector into my system over the next few days.


Regards,
Hi Ralph,

You're very welcome and congratulations! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on your unit, and if you have any questions, don't hesitate!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Set11 on June 27, 2019, 05:19:30 PM
Thanks to Manni's "Hide" method for checking black level, I found out that I raised it by using a positive value for RGB offset. Oops. 

Btw:

Quote
For gamma, I recommend selecting a 2.4 gamma (sadly 2.3 isn't an option, only 2.2, 2.4 and 2.6 are selectable). It would be great to have 2.3 and 2.5 as well,


Gamma 2.3 is available in custom gamma.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on June 28, 2019, 12:50:29 AM
Gamma 2.3 is available in custom gamma.
Of course! Thanks for the correction, I've updated the post :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: David Vaughn on June 29, 2019, 09:45:27 AM
OK...I got my RS2000 set up. Very good sample of the product. No bright corners as my X750R had and I'm impressed with the auto tone mapping on HDR from Vudu, Amazon, & Netflix. For UHD BD, I still plan on using SDR2020--I've had very good luck with this since not all discs contain the proper metadata and it's more plug-and-play for my wife.

Manni, one quick question. On your Maestro, what sync delay are you using? Also, do you have a screenshot of your "Macros" page anywhere? I'm using the Vertex, but I believe the screens are similar, right?

Thanks!

David
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on June 29, 2019, 12:14:10 PM
OK...I got my RS2000 set up. Very good sample of the product. No bright corners as my X750R had and I'm impressed with the auto tone mapping on HDR from Vudu, Amazon, & Netflix. For UHD BD, I still plan on using SDR2020--I've had very good luck with this since not all discs contain the proper metadata and it's more plug-and-play for my wife.

Manni, one quick question. On your Maestro, what sync delay are you using? Also, do you have a screenshot of your "Macros" page anywhere? I'm using the Vertex, but I believe the screens are similar, right?

Thanks!

David
Hi David,

Glad to hear you're happy with your unit :)

Yes the Vertex and Maestro settings should be fairly similar.
I attach my Maestro settings and the corresponding JVC modes:
User1 is SDR Rec-709 (for bluray/dvd)
User2 is SDR BT2020 (with filter, not used currently, except for tests)
User3 is SDR DCI-P3 (that's the calibration that the SDR BT2020 mode selects when madVR sends the BT2020 flag)
User4 is my HDR10 calibration with filter that uses the JVC static auto-tonemapping (with a manual default when there is no HDR metadata)
User5 is my 3D calibration
User6 is max bright to measure brightness / bulb aging (never calibrated with autocal) in high lamp / native gamut.
I use Natural for my Humax HDTV satellite box (720p50) as I use an SDR Rec-709 calibration with CMD low (for sports).
I have a HDR10 calibration without the filter in the HDR10 factory profile, that I select manually for tests.
I don't use the Maestro custom macro mode as if I send HDR10 content from a player in passthrough, it's usually to test or for streaming, so I'm in auto mode and my User4 calibration is selected for all HDR content irrespective of the HDR metadata.
I use exclusively madVR and its dynamic tonemapping in DCI-P3 for all critical HDR content (UHD Bluray).

I've asked HDR Fury to support MaxFALL, as it might make it possible to improve the custom algo, but I've not looked into the custom macro since I got the rs2000 as its automatic mode is fine for most streaming and madVR's dynamic tonemapping does far better with UHD Bluray content.

Hope this helps! :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: David Vaughn on June 29, 2019, 05:24:36 PM
Thanks Mani. I'm afraid that 5 seconds is much too short if I'm using the Vertex to switch, isn't it? Also, is there any negative to send on every sync?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on June 29, 2019, 11:35:56 PM
Thanks Mani. I'm afraid that 5 seconds is much too short if I'm using the Vertex to switch, isn't it? Also, is there any negative to send on every sync?
Hi Dave,

I don’t think the Vertex adds much time to the switching, it’s mostly the projector. I would bring it down gradually, until you start missing some changes, then bringing back up a few secs. That’s how I ended up with the current 5secs (a huge improvement from the rs500).

Always switch between the two calibrations with the longest switch time when testing/deciding for this settings: one with the filter, one without, and one with the closest iris position, one with the most open one. HDMI sync time is also determined by the calibration settings (added time to swap filter in or out, added time to change fixed iris setting). For example, it takes a lot longer to switch between my sdr rec-709 (low lamp, no filter, iris -12) and my SDR BT2020 calibration (low lamp, filter, iris open) than it does switching between My SDR BT2020 and DCI-P3 calibration (same lamp, filter and iris settings).

I replaced the Vertex with the the Maestro before I got the RS2000, and my sync times didn’t change significantly (around 15-20 secs). It’s only when I got the rs2000 that I reduced the sync time in the Maestro down to 5secs. So worth checking even with the Vertex.

In theory there is no downside to not sync on each change, because the Maestro/Vertex is supposed to detect if the needed calibration is the same as the one already selected or not. For example, going from the menus to the movie usually doesn’t require a calibration change, even if it’s a new stream. So I suggest setting the sync time first with “send in every sync” enabled, then try to disable and see if you miss any change. If you don’t you can then try to reduce the Sync time a bit further.

The first change can be missed when the option is disabled, also it depends on the source and which mode you’re switching from/to.

if you don’t feel like you’re getting unnecessary black screens, leave it enabled. Otherwise, try disabling it.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: dsm1212 on July 01, 2019, 10:26:18 AM
I have an RS1000 and was about to buy a spyder5pro, but it seems they are discontinued. I called JVC and he said they have been telling people to buy the replacement model spyderX. He said it would work. I'm a tad skeptical about everything :-). Has anyone here tried a spyderX?

steve
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on July 01, 2019, 10:37:30 AM
I have an RS1000 and was about to buy a spyder5pro, but it seems they are discontinued. I called JVC and he said they have been telling people to buy the replacement model spyderX. He said it would work. I'm a tad skeptical about everything :-). Has anyone here tried a spyderX?

steve
The latest official word is that JVC is working on supporting the Spyder X. If someone tells you anything different, ask them to name their source and report back.

If the Spyder X was already supported, they would have added it to the list of supported meters.

Unless you can buy from a seller that accepts unconditional returns, I wouldn’t take the risk.

I haven’t seen anyone try and confirm it works.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: dsm1212 on July 01, 2019, 11:04:45 AM
The latest official word is that JVC is working on supporting the Spyder X. If someone tells you anything different, ask them to name their source and report back.

If the Spyder X was already supported, they would have added it to the list of supported meters.

Unless you can buy from a seller that accepts unconditional returns, I wouldn’t take the risk.

I haven’t seen anyone try and confirm it works.
Yeah, I feel the same way. It was the JVC support guy at 800-252-5722. He "seemed" to know exactly what I was asking and said "another customer" confirmed it worked. But my thought is he might be confusing 5Elite vs 5Pro since I still see 5Elite available in a few places. I'm in no rush so I'll wait a bit. I'm probably going to take my PJ down so I can paint the ceiling anyhow and would prefer to calibrate after I move it back in place.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: David Vaughn on July 01, 2019, 03:16:50 PM
Hi Dave,

I don’t think the Vertex adds much time to the switching, it’s mostly the projector. I would bring it down gradually, until you start missing some changes, then bringing back up a few secs. That’s how I ended up with the current 5secs (a huge improvement from the rs500).

Always switch between the two calibrations with the longest switch time when testing/deciding for this settings: one with the filter, one without, and one with the closest iris position, one with the most open one. HDMI sync time is also determined by the calibration settings (added time to swap filter in or out, added time to change fixed iris setting). For example, it takes a lot longer to switch between my sdr rec-709 (low lamp, no filter, iris -12) and my SDR BT2020 calibration (low lamp, filter, iris open) than it does switching between My SDR BT2020 and DCI-P3 calibration (same lamp, filter and iris settings).

I replaced the Vertex with the the Maestro before I got the RS2000, and my sync times didn’t change significantly (around 15-20 secs). It’s only when I got the rs2000 that I reduced the sync time in the Maestro down to 5secs. So worth checking even with the Vertex.

In theory there is no downside to not sync on each change, because the Maestro/Vertex is supposed to detect if the needed calibration is the same as the one already selected or not. For example, going from the menus to the movie usually doesn’t require a calibration change, even if it’s a new stream. So I suggest setting the sync time first with “send in every sync” enabled, then try to disable and see if you miss any change. If you don’t you can then try to reduce the Sync time a bit further.

The first change can be missed when the option is disabled, also it depends on the source and which mode you’re switching from/to.

if you don’t feel like you’re getting unnecessary black screens, leave it enabled. Otherwise, try disabling it.
Thanks Manni...you're the best! BTW...our trip got postponed until some time in 2020, so that beer (or two) I owe you will have to wait a bit :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: pbiancardi on July 25, 2019, 04:58:23 AM
I apologize in advance if these are beginner questions, I have been reading and trying but its a lot of info lol.

My setup is JVC RS2000 with an Oppo UDP-203 and Lumagen Pro.

I have done the auto calibration with just the Spyder 5 so far but I have the i1 Pro 2 coming to do a more accurate color calibration.

Right now what is confusing me is that the Spears and Munsil HDR test disc has the blue filter pattern for both 709 and 2020, if I check this pattern it is spot on for 709 but way off for 2020 (with the projector filter enabled).  I have to go -20 on the color setting of the projector to make the 2020 pass the blue filter test (it also looks correct this way)?  I have the Oppo feeding the Lumagen "source direct" and the Lumagen feeding the JVC SDR2020.

I am wondering if I did something wrong on the auto calibration.  I did one calibration for SDR 709 (709 color, 2.4 gamma, 6500k) and one calibration for SDR 2020 (2020 color, 2.4 gamma, 6500k) is this correct?

I will rerun everything once I get the i1 Pro in (using Spyder for gamma only) but I am not clear if I should be doing the calibration twice or if one run through (regardless of color and gamma settings) just automatically does everything?  In addition should I be messing with the brightness, contrast, color and tint once the auto calibration is done or should those all be zero'ed out and the auto calibration theoretically sets all perfectly?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Edit one more thing - Is there any point to getting Calman or Chromapure to do a 3d LUT on the Lumagen in addition to the JVC calibration?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on July 25, 2019, 08:10:51 AM
I apologize in advance if these are beginner questions, I have been reading and trying but its a lot of info lol.

My setup is JVC RS2000 with an Oppo UDP-203 and Lumagen Pro.

I have done the auto calibration with just the Spyder 5 so far but I have the i1 Pro 2 coming to do a more accurate color calibration.

Right now what is confusing me is that the Spears and Munsil HDR test disc has the blue filter pattern for both 709 and 2020, if I check this pattern it is spot on for 709 but way off for 2020 (with the projector filter enabled).  I have to go -20 on the color setting of the projector to make the 2020 pass the blue filter test (it also looks correct this way)?  I have the Oppo feeding the Lumagen "source direct" and the Lumagen feeding the JVC SDR2020.

I am wondering if I did something wrong on the auto calibration.  I did one calibration for SDR 709 (709 color, 2.4 gamma, 6500k) and one calibration for SDR 2020 (2020 color, 2.4 gamma, 6500k) is this correct?

I will rerun everything once I get the i1 Pro in (using Spyder for gamma only) but I am not clear if I should be doing the calibration twice or if one run through (regardless of color and gamma settings) just automatically does everything?  In addition should I be messing with the brightness, contrast, color and tint once the auto calibration is done or should those all be zero'ed out and the auto calibration theoretically sets all perfectly?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Edit one more thing - Is there any point to getting Calman or Chromapure to do a 3d LUT on the Lumagen in addition to the JVC calibration?
Hi there,

First of all, there is a bug in the Oppo 203 tonemapping, it outputs rec-709 even when it should output BT2020, so please confirm that you are not using the Oppo tonemapping but are passing through HDR and letting the PJ to tonemap.

As you suggest that you're using BT2020 and Gamma 2.4 / D65, it looks like you're using an SDR BT2020 calibration, that won't give the correct results with the Oppo. You need to passthrough HDR (so use a BT2020 PQ gamma D65 calibration ) or use an SDR rec-709 D65 calibration.

I've never used the S&M UHD patterns for checking a calibration as I use Calman, so I can't help with that.

You can't run a single calibration with an i1pro2 and a Spyder (if you want to make the best of each). You have to run a color only autocal with the i1pro2, and a gamma only autocal with the Spyder.

You could check the calibration with HCFR or displaycal, as they support both meters. Once you have confirmed that you are doing the autocal correctly, you can assess how far you are from reference and decide if investing in Calman or Chromapure is worth it or not. If your PJ is close to reference after an autocal and if saturations track well, it won't be necessary for most people. It really depends how picky you are, and what your results are. Look at my postcal results, you can see the difference with/without a 3D LUT.

I stopped using Chromapure ages ago, so I wouldn't recommend it. I would suggest to look into Calman or Lightspace to generate a 3D LUT for the Radiance Pro.

Hope this helps!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: pbiancardi on July 25, 2019, 10:07:31 AM
Hi there,

First of all, there is a bug in the Oppo 203 tonemapping, it outputs rec-709 even when it should output BT2020, so please confirm that you are not using the Oppo tonemapping but are passing through HDR and letting the PJ to tonemap.

The Oppo is outputting "source direct" so for UHD its sending the HDR signal (which I understand avoids the 2020 "bug") to the Lumagen Pro which is doing dynamic tonemapping and sending SDR 2020 to the projector. 

And by multiple runs I mean do I need to calibrate color and gamma once for 709 and then again for 2020 or does one run take care of both?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on July 25, 2019, 10:48:18 AM
The Oppo is outputting "source direct" so for UHD its sending the HDR signal (which I understand avoids the 2020 "bug") to the Lumagen Pro which is doing dynamic tonemapping and sending SDR 2020 to the projector.

And by multiple runs I mean do I need to calibrate color and gamma once for 709 and then again for 2020 or does one run take care of both?
Sounds good re the Oppo outputting HDR and the Lumagen doing the tonemapping to SDR BT2020. In that case I don't know what's wrong with your SDR BT2020 calibration. Maybe someone else will have an idea. I haven't used a Lumagen in a long time (since I got rid of my mini-3D) and have never used a Lumagen Pro, so can't help there.

If you change lamp mode or filter mode between 709 and bt2020, they are independant calibrations. So yes, you need to run one gamma (spyder) and one color (i1pro2) for each, assuming you don't want to be able to change the iris setting, otherwise you need to run a color calibration for each iris range that you want supported for each calibration (709 and 2020).

You might want to re-read the basic section, it's all in there.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on July 25, 2019, 11:55:41 AM
I just ordered an i1 Pro 2 and will get it next week Friday! :D

I have a lot to learn. So far I have got pretty good results with spyder5 for both gamma and color with autocal, but I am ready to take it to the next level. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Jbarteli on July 27, 2019, 12:48:00 AM
Any news on the support for the Spider X? Should I buy the spider 5 or the new X?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on July 27, 2019, 12:54:13 AM
Any news on the support for the Spider X? Should I buy the spider 5 or the new X?
The answer is the same. If you can wait, wait. If you can find a spyder 5 and need to calibrate, get one while you still can. There is no official news about spyder X supoort. It will come, but no idea when.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Jbarteli on July 27, 2019, 01:08:12 AM
The answer is the same. If you can wait, wait. If you can find a spyder 5 and need to calibrate, get one while you still can. There is no official news about spyder X supoort. It will come, but no idea when.
Thank you Manni, is it known if the X is superior to the 5?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on July 27, 2019, 08:19:56 AM
Thank you Manni, is it known if the X is superior to the 5?
It might be a bit faster and maybe a bit more accurate especially in low light thanks to a larger lens, but I don’t expect huge differences. I plan to buy one as soon as JVC supports them, I’ll report then on any difference. I didn’t see much of a difference between the Spyder 4 and the Spyder 5, so probably similar.

Here is a review (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/spyder-x-calibrator-review/) from a good website.

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on July 28, 2019, 01:42:46 PM
According to this other review (https://www.diyphotography.net/diyp-tests-out-the-new-spyderx-elite-datacolors-fastest-and-most-accurate-monitor-calibrator/), the difference in speed is significant, but whether it's the software or the meter, it's hard to say. Accuracy seems improved as well, but unlike the previous website I don't know how reliable this reviewer is. Anyway I'll test it when it's supported and then we'll know if there is any improvement with the JVC Autocal software.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on July 30, 2019, 07:52:37 PM
@Manni, Do you always face your meters at your screen when calibrating your projector?

Like when you are profiling a colorimeter to a spectro, do you always point both the spectro and the colorimeter at the screen?

And then when you generate the 3DLUT, do you also point the meter at the screen?

I know the Spyder5 faces the lens for autocal, but I'm mainly wondering for everything else.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on July 30, 2019, 10:57:17 PM
@Manni, Do you always face your meters at your screen when calibrating your projector?

Like when you are profiling a colorimeter to a spectro, do you always point both the spectro and the colorimeter at the screen?

And then when you generate the 3DLUT, do you also point the meter at the screen?

I know the Spyder5 faces the lens for autocal, but I'm mainly wondering for everything else.

It depends on the meters and the software.

Obviously with the JVC Autocal the i1pro2 faces the screen (color only) and the Spyder faces the lens (gamma, and color if no i1pro2).

With Calman (or Lightspace), I train the Discus facing the screen to the i1pro2 facing the screen, because the Discus can read black or near black easily even when facing the screen. The spectro always have to face the screen to take it into account. When I had a meter unable to read black or near black, such as my old i1display2, chroma 5 or even i1displaypro in some cases, I would usually train the tristim facing the lens to the i1pro facing the screen.

In any case, the meter should always point to whatever it was pointing at when it was profiled to the spectro. You can't move the meter (even slightly) once it's been profiled. If the meter moves (say you bump into the tripod, catch it before it falls if you're lucky, and put it back in place), you have to re-profile. This is true for any measurements, including when profiling the PJ for a 3D LUT. Once profiled to the spectro, the meter doesn't move.

To optimize profiling with the JVCs, I recommend the following:


You can get decent results without doing all the above, but if you want max accuracy and a profile that's good 99.99% of the time, following each of the above puts the odds in your favor.

Hope this brain dump of meter profiling tips helps! :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: riddle on July 31, 2019, 02:05:12 AM
Thanks Manni, your advice is worth considering, but I still have some minor irregularities. Gamma calibration via Spyder5 is OK but the color is somewhat delayed. I can't really fine-tune it with i1pro2. I compare the result with Calman and i think i make somewhere some mistake. Colors after calibration seem to me somehow scattered.



Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on July 31, 2019, 02:23:56 AM
Thanks Manni, your advice is worth considering, but I still have some minor irregularities. Gamma calibration via Spyder5 is OK but the color is somewhat delayed. I can't really fine-tune it with i1pro2. I compare the result with Calman and i think i make somewhere some mistake. Colors after calibration seem to me somehow scattered.
I'm not sure what you mean with "color is somewhat delayed" or "colors after calibration seem somewhat scattered". Run gamma only with Spyder 5, run color only with i1pro2, post logs/measurements in the Autocal for both and measurements with the Spyder 5 trained to the i1pro2 in Calman (make sure the profile is good) using full-sized patterns for both as well, explaining in detail what you think the issue is. Then we can take a look at the possible issue(s).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on July 31, 2019, 06:36:07 AM
Wow Manni, you wrote a lot!  That was not expected.

Yes, your information is extremely helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to write it all.

How do I measure my calibration result quality in calman?  Are there any special modes or settings I need to know?

After autocal, my high and low bulbs still look quote different and I would like to try and understand why they are different.  I think looking at the charts that calman can read for me would be a good place to start.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on July 31, 2019, 06:59:37 AM
Wow Manni, you wrote a lot!  That was not expected.

Yes, your information is extremely helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to write it all.

How do I measure my calibration result quality in calman?  Are there any special modes or settings I need to know?

After autocal, my high and low bulbs still look quote different and I would like to try and understand why they are different.  I think looking at the charts that calman can read for me would be a good place to start.
I didn't expect it either, but once I got started, I thought why not try to cover all the bases?

I don't know what you mean by "my high and low bulbs still look quite different". Are you talking about the picture itself or the measurements? Do you use a different custom curve or different settings in madVR in each mode to take into account the difference in peak brightness? there are some differences, for example you can usually reach a larger color volume in high lamp than in low lamp, which is one of the advantages of using high lamp, but your statement is a bit vague.

It would really help if you could post measurements, pictures, screenshots so that we can see more clearly what you're talking about.

Yes Calman measurements can help to check a calibration but that's a bit off topic if you're not used to the software. :)

I suggest you get used to Calman first (there are a few support threads around), then use the info above to create good profiles, and finally provide measurements taken in Calman showing the issues/differences between low and high lamp so we can keep the discussion on-topic. If anyone else wants to help re Calman, please PM SirMaster so that we don't clutter the thread.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on July 31, 2019, 07:15:35 AM
What I mean is that my high bulb color looks less saturated and colors overall look lighter than the color in my low bulb.

This is just after doing autocal with the only difference being changing the lamp power.

I don't use any different settings anywhere else as I am really just seeing it by toggling the bulb between high and low in the JVC which is also the only thing that I change between autocals as well (lamp mode).

This was the case when I did color from the Spyder, and is still the case after doing the color with the i1Pro2.

It's not a huge deal.  In isolation I wouldn't really notice the difference, but toggling back and forth it seems that I like the color better in low bulb.

I just thought that the only way I can really understand what is fundamentally different about the color would be to measure it and look at the numbers.  I don't know which is more "correct".

Like you said, maybe if I changed my bulb and also changed the nits in madVR at the same time it wouldn't be as noticeable of a difference.  But I would have expected that to just change the brightness, not so much the color itself. 

I can look at it with SDR content as well and changing the bulb to high doesn't just make the picture brighter, it makes the colors look a different lighter shade.

Maybe it's just how color looks when brighter?  Again I don't know how describe it and thought that a measurement comparison would be good to tell what might actually be different about the color.

I can take pictures as well to try and show the difference I am seeing.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on July 31, 2019, 09:26:12 AM
If you change the lamp mode (i.e peak brightness) without changing the settings either in madVR HDR tonemapping or in your custom curves to reflect the higher peak brightness, colors will likely be slightly desaturated. There is a strong link between brightness and saturation in HDR on a projector. The higher the brightness, the more saturation, provided the source/pj/whatever does the tonemapping knows that there is more brightness to play with. If you simply raise the brightness without telling the tonemapping, then you'll likely get a slightly desaturated picture in high lamp.

Anyway, calibrate and set-up properly both modes, and if you still have a difference, then take measurements with madVR. If anything, provided that the calibration and the tonemapping settings are correct, you get more color volume in high lamp, not less, but there is no point comparing the two modes if you just change the lamp mode (even calibrated).

You can try the same in SDR, you shouldn't have the issue (provided the calibrations are good of course) as there is nothing to tune re tonemapping.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: riddle on August 01, 2019, 01:29:59 AM
I'm not sure what you mean with "color is somewhat delayed" or "colors after calibration seem somewhat scattered". Run gamma only with Spyder 5, run color only with i1pro2, post logs/measurements in the Autocal for both and measurements with the Spyder 5 trained to the i1pro2 in Calman (make sure the profile is good) using full-sized patterns for both as well, explaining in detail what you think the issue is. Then we can take a look at the possible issue(s).
It seems to me that if I release Autocal and calibrate colors with i1pro2, the resulting effect is worse than without it. Maybe this weekend i will have more free time for makes some photos with rezults.

Thank you
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: pbiancardi on August 01, 2019, 04:48:46 PM
Sounds good re the Oppo outputting HDR and the Lumagen doing the tonemapping to SDR BT2020. In that case I don't know what's wrong with your SDR BT2020 calibration. Maybe someone else will have an idea. I haven't used a Lumagen in a long time (since I got rid of my mini-3D) and have never used a Lumagen Pro, so can't help there.

If you change lamp mode or filter mode between 709 and bt2020, they are independant calibrations. So yes, you need to run one gamma (spyder) and one color (i1pro2) for each, assuming you don't want to be able to change the iris setting, otherwise you need to run a color calibration for each iris range that you want supported for each calibration (709 and 2020).

You might want to re-read the basic section, it's all in there.

Question regarding Calman, do I want to do 3d luts for both 709 and 2020, still trying to get comfortable with the software before I do anything beyond reads.  Also do I want to use both meters with Calman, Spyder for grayscale and i1 Pro 2 for 3d lut?  My first read shows that JVC autocal was basically spot on for 709 points....
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Set11 on August 01, 2019, 06:26:54 PM
Hi Manni,

Mind sharing your tips to get i1pro2 to read gamma at low IRE levels?
I keep getting a reading of zero on the first gamma step of Red. (iris is already set to max)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on August 01, 2019, 10:44:23 PM
Question regarding Calman, do I want to do 3d luts for both 709 and 2020, still trying to get comfortable with the software before I do anything beyond reads.  Also do I want to use both meters with Calman, Spyder for grayscale and i1 Pro 2 for 3d lut?  My first read shows that JVC autocal was basically spot on for 709 points....
Yes you do need a different LUT for SDR BT709 and SDR BT2020 (it's not advised to use a static HDR 3D LUT because that means you can't use automatic tonemapping, whether static in the JVC/player or dynamic in madVR/Radiance Pro).

Unless you zoom the picture down to its minimal size (and even then, I'm not sure it will be accurate enough), you can't use the i1pro2 for a 3D LUT. It can't read the dimmest patches accurately, this will cause a lot of issues especially near black and with blue. You have to train the Spyder to the i1pro2 and use the profiled Spyder to generate the LUT in Calman. See  a few posts above for tips to profile a meter to a spectro.

A 3D LUT will NOT visibly improve things if you're already spot on after an Autocal. In fact, it can make the picture worse. So I would advise to only make a LUT if there are significant errors that the Autocal and manual fine-tuning can't resolve. If, after setting white to D65 using the i1pro2, you have gamma/gamut (including saturations) under 3dE accross the range, and a colorchecker SG with all points under 3-4, I would say don't bother with the 3D LUT. You're going to waste hours of good lamp time for little to no visible improvement, unless you can get significant improvements with a Lightning LUT (which works well after an Autocal). Remember, if you're picky, you have to redo the calibration every 200 hours or so, due to lamp drift.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on August 01, 2019, 10:48:36 PM
Hi Manni,

Mind sharing your tips to get i1pro2 to read gamma at low IRE levels?
I keep getting a reading of zero on the first gamma step of Red. (iris is already set to max)
You can't really do a gamma autocal with an i1pro2, unless you zoom down the picture to the minimum size, and if that's not enough use a piece of white board that you bring closer to the lens (assuming you can't bring the PJ closer).

Otherwise, even if the value is non-zero, it's probably garbage under 10% white anyway, and not far from garbage under 20% white. When you read gamma with an i1pro2, you can see that anything below 10-15% is complete garbage and should be ignored, so you definitely can't use it for calibration of low brightness levels, it's not designed for that. A spectro is best used to do high brightness color work, or to profile a faster/more accurate in low light tristim such as the Spyder.

If you do manage to get good gamma autocal results with the i1pro2 without the zoom/cardboard tip suggested above (and even with that, I'm not 100% sure I'd trust the i1pro2), let us know!

I haven't tried to do gamma with the i1pro2 because I use the Spyder 5 for gamma autocal. So my suggestion is to buy one and use it for gamma. A Spyder 5 Express (if you can still find one) isn't that expensive and it does the job well.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: pbiancardi on August 02, 2019, 03:35:48 AM
Yes you do need a different LUT for SDR BT709 and SDR BT2020 (it's not advised to use a static HDR 3D LUT because that means you can't use automatic tonemapping, whether static in the JVC/player or dynamic in madVR/Radiance Pro).

Unless you zoom the picture down to its minimal size (and even then, I'm not sure it will be accurate enough), you can't use the i1pro2 for a 3D LUT. It can't read the dimmest patches accurately, this will cause a lot of issues especially near black and with blue. You have to train the Spyder to the i1pro2 and use the profiled Spyder to generate the LUT in Calman. See  a few posts above for tips to profile a meter to a spectro.

A 3D LUT will NOT visibly improve things if you're already spot on after an Autocal. In fact, it can make the picture worse. So I would advise to only make a LUT if there are significant errors that the Autocal and manual fine-tuning can't resolve. If, after setting white to D65 using the i1pro2, you have gamma/gamut (including saturations) under 3dE accross the range, and a colorchecker SG with all points under 3-4, I would say don't bother with the 3D LUT. You're going to waste hours of good lamp time for little to no visible improvement, unless you can get significant improvements with a Lightning LUT (which works well after an Autocal). Remember, if you're picky, you have to redo the calibration every 200 hours or so, due to lamp drift.
I see how to profile the Spyder using the i1pro2,is the Spyder ok to use for this and would I then point the Spyder at the screen to do my reads?

I played around more last night and the only thing that is baffling me is 2020, when I do a read of 709 (using the i1pro2) everything color wise looks pretty spot on but if I do the same read of 2020 (with the filter engaged on the JVC) lots of point (especially the top green) are WAY off so I am wondering if I am doing something wrong?  I am using the 2020 default CMS and telling the Lumagen to output SDR2020 (verifying with JVC info).  Anything else I need to do to get a proper 2020 read?  
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on August 02, 2019, 05:14:44 AM
I see how to profile the Spyder using the i1pro2,is the Spyder ok to use for this and would I then point the Spyder at the screen to do my reads?

I played around more last night and the only thing that is baffling me is 2020, when I do a read of 709 (using the i1pro2) everything color wise looks pretty spot on but if I do the same read of 2020 (with the filter engaged on the JVC) lots of point (especially the top green) are WAY off so I am wondering if I am doing something wrong?  I am using the 2020 default CMS and telling the Lumagen to output SDR2020 (verifying with JVC info).  Anything else I need to do to get a proper 2020 read? 
The spyder points the way it points when you profile it to the i1pro2. It should work fine pointing at the screen, as long as it doesn't read its own shadow or the i1pro2 shadow.

You need to post screenshots, but there are two ways things could look like they are wrong in measurements when they are fine:
1) You have not set the target in the calibration software you are measuring
2) You don't realise that the projector will never reach bt2020, only P3. If you want to see a nicer looking graph, measure P3 within BT2020, not BT2020.

With the filter, the PJ can reach 100% of DCI-P3, but that's only around 70% of P3, so if BT2020 looks undersaturated, that's what it is.
If it looks oversaturated, that might be because you left the target on rec-709.

But again, without screenshots of your measurements, it's impossible to tell.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: pbiancardi on August 02, 2019, 06:09:32 AM
The spyder points the way it points when you profile it to the i1pro2. It should work fine pointing at the screen, as long as it doesn't read its own shadow or the i1pro2 shadow.

You need to post screenshots, but there are two ways things could look like they are wrong in measurements when they are fine:
1) You have not set the target in the calibration software you are measuring
2) You don't realise that the projector will never reach bt2020, only P3. If you want to see a nicer looking graph, measure P3 within BT2020, not BT2020.

With the filter, the PJ can reach 100% of DCI-P3, but that's only around 70% of P3, so if BT2020 looks undersaturated, that's what it is.
If it looks oversaturated, that might be because you left the target on rec-709.

But again, without screenshots of your measurements, it's impossible to tell.
I get it now, the RS 2000 cannot even do BT2020?  Should we still be using SDR2020 though it just wont get the full benefit or should we be using 709 or something it can do?  I will do some screens this weekend, greatly appreciate the help.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on August 02, 2019, 07:09:36 AM
I get it now, the RS 2000 cannot even do BT2020?  Should we still be using SDR2020 though it just wont get the full benefit or should we be using 709 or something it can do?  I will do some screens this weekend, greatly appreciate the help.
Yes you should. Consumer sources output BT2020, which is used as a container, so you should use BT2020 when sending HDR. Saturations are tracking properly, and content rarely exceeds P3 anyway, so that's the way to do it.

Again, if you measure P3 within BT2020 you'll see nicer looking charts, and how much the PJ covers of what's actually in the UHD content 99% of the time (only a few titles are mastered to BT2020, and no one knows if the content itself significantly exceeds DCI-P3 anyway). Whether the UHD content is mastered to rec-709, DCI-P3 or BT2020, BT-2020 is always used as a container.

However, if you tonemap with madVR or the Radiance Pro, you can tonemap to DCI-P3 instead (discard the BT2020 container), and use an SDR DCI-P3 calibration that will produce nicer looking graphs when you measure it.

It's also easier to create 3D LUTs without artifacts such as posterization if the target gamut is not too far from the native gamut of the PJ. BT2020 3D LUTs are very difficult to get right with most software when the display only covers DCI-P3 or so. DCI-P3 LUTs are much easier to get right.

So to sum it up:

If you output HDR passthrough from a consumer source (UHD BD player etc), BT2020 is the gamut to use (with PQ gamma).

If you want to measure nice-looking graphs, measure P3 within BT2020, not BT2020.

If you use madVR or the Radiance Pro, and especially if you plan to create a 3D LUT, tonemap to DCI-P3 instead of BT2020 with madVR/the Radiance, and use an SDR DCI-P3 calibration in the PJ.

In that case you can measure DCI-P3 (not DCI-P3 within BT2020) and it should look fairly close.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Set11 on August 02, 2019, 03:24:16 PM
You can't really do a gamma autocal with an i1pro2, unless you zoom down the picture to the minimum size, and if that's not enough use a piece of white board that you bring closer to the lens (assuming you can't bring the PJ closer).

Otherwise, even if the value is non-zero, it's probably garbage under 10% white anyway, and not far from garbage under 20% white. When you read gamma with an i1pro2, you can see that anything below 10-15% is complete garbage and should be ignored, so you definitely can't use it for calibration of low brightness levels, it's not designed for that. A spectro is best used to do high brightness color work, or to profile a faster/more accurate in low light tristim such as the Spyder.

If you do manage to get good gamma autocal results with the i1pro2 without the zoom/cardboard tip suggested above (and even with that, I'm not 100% sure I'd trust the i1pro2), let us know!

I haven't tried to do gamma with the i1pro2 because I use the Spyder 5 for gamma autocal. So my suggestion is to buy one and use it for gamma. A Spyder 5 Express (if you can still find one) isn't that expensive and it does the job well.
I foolishly sold my Spyder 5 after I bought the i1pro2 :(

Anyway, reducing the screen size did the trick. Here's what I did:
 - zoom to minimum size
- ipro2 is positioned 10cm away from screen
- the shadow of the ipro2 sits below the screen and the ipro2 itself is angled upwards 
- ditched my usb extension cable and plug it directly to my laptop (not sure if this makes  a difference)

After doing all that, I was able to barely get the i1pro2 inside the rectangle in autocal. Previously it was sitting outside the rectangle just like what you have written in your guide.

I haven't done a full check in HCFR, but near black readings don't have a red haze anymore.
That's enough for me for now :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on August 02, 2019, 11:38:22 PM
I foolishly sold my Spyder 5 after I bought the i1pro2 :(

Anyway, reducing the screen size did the trick. Here's what I did:
 - zoom to minimum size
- ipro2 is positioned 10cm away from screen
- the shadow of the ipro2 sits below the screen and the ipro2 itself is angled upwards
- ditched my usb extension cable and plug it directly to my laptop (not sure if this makes  a difference)

After doing all that, I was able to barely get the i1pro2 inside the rectangle in autocal. Previously it was sitting outside the rectangle just like what you have written in your guide.

I haven't done a full check in HCFR, but near black readings don't have a red haze anymore.
That's enough for me for now :)
Sorry to hear about the Spyder, but glad the zooming tip worked.

10cm is very close, I'm not sure how valid the resuts are, but as it's gamma only it might be fine. As long as you're happy, that's all that counts :)

When you check with HCFR, make sure you use the i1pro2 at a normal position, and discard readings below 10-15%.

Then measure the way you ran the gamma autocal to check below 15% white, and check if there are any significant differences above. There shouldn't be, otherwise it means that the extreme angle used to avoid the i1pro2 shadow causes the issues.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on August 12, 2019, 11:21:10 AM
Hey Manni, I did some measurements and calibration on my NX5 the other day.

Just wanted to post them to see what you think about my results and to learn maybe what I need to change etc.

This was Spyder5 autocal gamma and i1 Pro 2 autocal color.  Followed by i1D3 trained to i1 Pro 2 in DisplayCAL for 3DLUT.

https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/ (https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/)

It looks pretty good to me.  I am surprised how good the rec709 looks after autocal, but my P3 does not look that great after autocal.  It seems to be much improved with the 3dlut?

There are a few colors that have a higher dE but I assume that is because they are outside the gamut?  My NX5 measured 88.5% P3 coverage and 89% volume.

FYI, I always had my projector 8-bit color mode (so I don't need report BT.2020) and used the DCI color profile for my P3 3DLUT.

But do I still need to worry about posterization with only 88.5% coverage?  I’m doing everything with DisplayCAL with madTPG.  I believe I am doing everything right but not sure if I could be doing something even better. 

Here were the DisplayCal numbers after the 3DLUT profile was complete.

https://imgur.com/a/1mGxQwb (https://imgur.com/a/1mGxQwb)

Look forward to your thoughts, thanks!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on August 12, 2019, 02:58:58 PM
I find the graphs hard to read (I never used DisplayCAL for pre/post cal measurements, I always use Calman for that. I only ever used DisplayCAL to generate some test 3D LUTs when I had issues with both Calman and Lightspace, and I was impressed with the results). I'm not sure what is a target and what are your measurements in the graphs. Were you measuring saturations as well? Or were you only measuring the primaries/secondaries of the gamut?

From a gamut coverage point of view, the rec-709 calibration seems OK and the DCI-P3 is about as close as you can get with an N5 as it doesn't have a P3 filter, so all looks normal really. Green is short, and therefore all the points between green and blue are undersaturated, which gives you the errors you see. That's a normal result in P3 for an N5 without a filter. As long as your saturations track well below 100%, you should be fine, but I honestly can't see your saturation tracking on the graphs you provided.

In my experience DisplayCAL does a great job at dealing with understurateds gamut re posterization, so you should be fine. If you can't see posterization visually, you should be good to go.

My clips to check for this are the sunset at the end of the capture sequence in Mad Max: Fury Road (when Max is running after the car). If there is posterization on red, you should see plenty in the sunset. You can also look at explosions later. For cyan, I use the aerial shots of the sea at the beginning of The Shallows, after she first gets on the beach and she starts looking around. You should also see posterization on whatever is in her wash bag when it's present.

Frankly I don't see anything worrying for an N5 in your measurements. If you want more than 85-90% of P3, you need the filter (hence an N7/N9).

If you do get posterization, I would suggest you simply tell madVR to target rec-709 for all content (i.e. only load a rec-709 3D LUT and no other LUT). Without the filter, you're not covering that much more than rec-709, so it's better not to get posterization than to cover a bit more and get artifacts.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on August 12, 2019, 03:21:54 PM
Thank you for taking a look :)

You are correct there are no saturation measurements unfortunately.


I am only used to DisplayCAL and a little HCFR so far, but I am expanding my toolset and I will be able to gather more and better data soon.

Thanks for confirming that I am at least on a decent track.  I know that the format of my data is not what you are familiar with, but I figured I would post what I had so far anyways.

I will make sure to get good saturation tracking measurements and check for posterization visually.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on August 13, 2019, 09:33:36 PM
So I did a whole re-calibration of my NX5 from the start with a fresh autocal and fresh 3DLUT.

Here are my results (everything is calibrated and measured against DCI-P3):

JVC Autocal:
(https://i.imgur.com/7p9Sl0w.png)

3DLUT:
(https://i.imgur.com/dxkbEe8.png)

Gamut:
(https://i.imgur.com/YPCgXov.png)

Video version:
https://youtu.be/WQs05LHycaM

It's pretty nice, I now got 90% DCI-P3 coverage and 95.8% DCI-P3 volume.

3DLUT was created in DisplayCAL with just 115 patches.

I really love the results that I see in movies when I toggle the 3DLUT on and off.  Every scene is better with the 3DLUT on.

Thanks again Manni for all your help!  I think it is time for a break for awhile so I can enjoy some movies!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on August 14, 2019, 01:26:35 AM
Glad you're happy with the results.

Enjoy your projector! :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on August 20, 2019, 08:51:02 AM
Firmware 2.08

https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000/ (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000/)

Have not got to test it out myself yet though.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Killroy™ on August 24, 2019, 10:37:28 AM
Any rumors or news on support for the new i1Basic Pro 3 Plus?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on August 24, 2019, 10:56:50 AM
Any rumors or news on support for the new i1Basic Pro 3 Plus?
Not that I know of, but I don't expect much improvement from this model over the i1pro2 for our projector use. The black level is still 0.2cd/m2, same as the i1pro2, which is poor, so a spyder will still be needed for gamma. The max brightness is 5000cd/m2 (up from 1200cd/m2 for the i1pro2), which can be useful for brighter displays, but clearly that doesn't really matter for projectors. I don't think it will even bring much futureproofing for laser/BT2020 as it seems to be still a 10nm spectro. So unless it doesn't need dark calibration anymore (arguably the main downside of the i1pro2 beyond the poor low light performance), I'm not sure it's worth upgrading. I certainly won't unless I hear some real-life benefit for display calibration from an actual user, as I might have missed something in the specs.
Of course if it's your first spectro it might make sense to get the new model, especially if you plan to calibrate brighter displays.
Same as the Spyder X, I guess will find out when/if they are supported when a new version of the software is delivered with support for new meters.
So if you have a good reason to get the new model, I'm afraid you'll have to wait. Otherwise, nothing should stop you from getting an i1pro2 and a Spyder 5 Express or Pro and get going. :)
Title: Re: Basic: Which Meter to use?
Post by: ENT on September 04, 2019, 06:56:35 AM
If you want to use the JVC Autocal V11, you can use two families of meters:

The Spyder 5 Pro/Elite/Express

If you want to buy one meter to do everything with the JVC Autocal at the lowest cost, that’s the meter to get. It's not perfect, but it provides great results for a limited investment.
Cut...

Note that the Spyder 4 and older are NOT compatible with the JVC Autocal V11, hence can't be used to calibrate the native 4K models.

A Spyder X has been recently released, but it's not yet supported by the autocal (as of V11 1.10). Support might be added in a future version.

The x-Rite i1Pro 2 (you only need the basic version for projector/display calibration use)
The i1pro 2 is a very good, semi-pro, near reference spectroradiometer.
Cut...

The strength of the i1pro2 is gamut/color/white point correction. Its weakness is gamma calibration (especially in the low end), as they are not really reliable below 15% white when reading a typical SDR calibration of a JVC off the screen.
 Cut….

So ideally the i1Pro 2  should be used for color (gamut/white point) calibration only, and the Spyder 5 should be used for gamma calibration (preferably).
Cut…...

If you want to save some money, there are two alternatives to the i1pro2:

  • The EFI ES-2000, a clone of the i1pro2, that apparently is detected as an i1pro2 by the Autocal Software and possibly by other calibration software, but can’t be used with x-Rite software for licensing reasons. I haven't tried it personally but others have confirmed it should work.
  • The older i1pro (preferably rev.B-D), that isn’t officially supported and has a smaller range (0.2-300nits). Still it can be used with the Autocal software
Whichever meter you use, you need the manufacturer's driver (Datacolor or X-rite) to be installed, not another third party (for example ArgyllCMS). Also, if the manufacturer's software loads a utility (Datacolor does), you have to prevent this from being loaded or it will conflict with the JVC Autocal when it tries to access the meter.
Hi Manni,
I can confirm EFI ES-2000 work like an i1pro2 in JVC autocal and in Calman - needs for boths only the driver "i1_x64.sys, year 2006 release" instead, the 2009 release of driver, works with Calman but not with JVC Autocal. Both the software recognize ES-2000 as an i1pro2 with hardware serial number. I think the principle it is valid for other software also.

Tank you for the suggestion, I have bought ES-2000 after I read your thread and now I am glad confirm your hypothesis.

In therms of hypothesis I think that the colorimeter EIZO EX3 is a sypder5 clone and in this case the cost is very low.
See the attachment.
Regards
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 04, 2019, 12:06:48 PM
Thanks for your feedback and confirmation, I've linked your post to the "Which meter to use" post. :)

Nice find on the Eizo, which looks like a clone of the Spyder 5 Express for half the price. If someone confirms that it works with the JVC Autocal V11 I'll mention it too.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Dylan Seeger on September 04, 2019, 01:10:06 PM
Manni, do you know if the EFI ES-2000 will work with Chromapure? I'm assuming it will show up as an i1Pro2?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on September 05, 2019, 07:28:16 AM
Looks like official SpyderX support for Autocal is being added in the next October firmware along with some other goodies.

New features
Frame by frame DTM HDR. Can also be set up for scene by scene. (uses 18-bit processing to avoid banding)
Anamorphic D (for DCR lens owners)
SpyderX support for autocal
More screen calibration presets

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2019/consumer/firmware_update.html (http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2019/consumer/firmware_update.html)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 05, 2019, 08:57:16 AM
Yep, it means people will be able to start buying a Spyder X in November.

Until then, a Spyder 5 is still the only option (besides the i1pro2 and comp. of course).

I plan to test a Spyder X whenever JVC release a new Autocal software, of course I'll update the thread then.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on September 05, 2019, 09:10:03 AM
I'm curious how the SpyderX will work.  As far as I understand, it can't do 10,000 nits like the Spyder5 and it's not meant to ever read directly from a projector lens.

Both the Spyder4 and Spyder5 which are the only 2 other meters that JVC has ever used for gamma from the lens had a different sensor design that seems to have allowed that.

The sensor design and lens on the SpyderX looks a lot like the i1D3, but has no filter to use for reading off a lens.

I guess I can ask JVC about it when I am at CEDIA.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 05, 2019, 03:03:38 PM
Reading off the lens isn't really desirable as long as the meter is sensitive enough to read low light patterns accurately off the screen, so that the screen is taken into account without having to use a screen table. With the JVCs, I'd rather have a meter than can't read very high with better sensitivity in the low end to measure 33 steps for gamma accurately, included near black, than a meter able to read 10,000nits off the lens with poor low light sensitivity. Ideally, I'd want something like my Discus that can also measure black accurately for BT1886 and contrast measurements, but I doubt this will happen with Spyder X.

If reading off the screen we don't need more than say 500nits, and that's for those with a screen smaller than my monitor. I have 88" diag 16/9 nominal gain and I barely hit 220nits with a new lamp in high lamp.

Anyway, I find it easier to buy and test, which I will do as soon as JVC delivers the goods, but of course please update us if you find anything interesting at Cedia.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on September 05, 2019, 08:48:44 PM
So I was redoing all my autocal stuff today to try some new things and I found something strange.

For some reason my DCI color profile mode on my NX5 will not autocal.

Even if I run autocal when the projector is in DCI color profile mode it wont stick.

Autocal logs, calibrates, and re-logs the results properly.  The autocal graphs at the end even show that it has been correctly calibrated by autocal.  I click Save and it says calibration saved successfully.  At this moment, DCI is actually calibrated, but as soon as I change any setting in the projector, like even change the iris from 0 to -1, the calibration disappears (I see the color change) and it never comes back.  Even if I go back to iris 0.

If I switch the projector into HDR color profile or rec709 and run a verification via HCFR, everything comes out perfect, gamma is flat 2.2, white balance is 0.5dE max, etc.

And in HDR or rec709 mode when I move the iris between -4 and -3 I can immediately see the color autocal enable and disable as it only applies to -3 and above of course.

But back in DCI color profile there is no change between iris -4 and -3 and when I run a verification in HCFR, my gamma is around 2.0 to 2.1 and the white balance is 2-3 dE off like it's uncalibrated.

I tried multiple times and even restoring INIT and trying fresh and it's the same thing every time.  All my color profiles calibrate perfectly except DCI

I am also on firmware 2.08 FWIW but it was the same problem on 2.07 as well.

Is this intentional for DCI color profile?  Any ideas?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 06, 2019, 01:14:26 AM
This isn't intentional and the DCI color profile calibrates fine here. But I have an rs2000 with the P3 filter, so that's a difference.

Are you using the DCI profile in a factory Picture Mode, such as Natural, Cinema, or HDR10, are you using it in a User Picture Mode?

I'm using it in a user picture mode (User 2), and it works fine there.

So I would first try to see if it works from a user picture mode.

If it doesn't work from a user picture mode, then I would try to create a custom DCI custom color profile with the JVC Autocal using standard P3 coordinates (I can't remember if P3 is an option in the software or not), save it, import it into a custom profile slot, and try to calibrate that in a user picture mode.

Or use the profile I attached, but it wasn't created with V11 so I can't guarantee that it will work. I'll create a set of profiles from Autocal V11 to make sure that they work when I find a minute and will make them available for download. They can be useful, especially for those with an rs2000/rs3000 who would like to calibrate rec-709 with the filter or DCI-P3 without the filter, as these options are still not in the new JVCs (unlike BT2020 which has both BT2020 with filter and HDR10 without filter).

If any of that works, please report your findings to JVC (and let us know).

If it doesn't work, please report to JVC and see what they say. It might be a bug with N5/RS1000 models.

Good luck!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: gregch on September 06, 2019, 01:55:28 PM
Posted by Manni in the RS1000/2000/33000 owners forum. "Spyder5 for gamma and i1pro2 for color is the best combination if you want to be able to use the JVC Autocal (please ask any further questions on that subject in the calibration thread).

The Discus is a great meter but it's not supported by JVC (yet). Neither is the C6. As you already have a Spyder5, the best addition would be an i1pro2, so you can use that to measure color in the JVC Autocal and to train your Spyder5 in any other software supporting both (most do)."


Hi Manni,

Continuing our conversation. 

I am a bit confused on the best inexpensive all around meters to use for display calibration. 
I understand that the JVC Autocal software is limited in it's meter support but works with the Spyder5 and the iDisplaypro2 meters but I may not want to be limited to just JVC Autocal.  I am thinking of buying Calman HDR calibration software to calibrate multiple TVs and my projector.  I realize that I won't be making 3DLUT tables for the JVC like Autocal but I would think I could get respectable calibration using the Color Management System in the JVC projector.

My confusion comes from the iDisplayPro & Pro2.  My understanding is that the i1DisplayPro is a basic all around Spectrophotometer that can be calibrated with the i1DisplayPro2 to be used for accurate calibration.  Likewise I guess you can use the i1DisplayPro2 to calibrate the Spyder5 meter and use it for all around calibration.  But the i1DisplayPro2 is a colorimeter and by itself it basically can only be used with the JVC Autocal software standalone.  Is that correct?

I am looking at purchasing the Calman C6 2000 HDR meter for calibration since it is the cheaper priced all around meter.  I understand it can't be used with JVC Autocal but couldn't I just use the Spyder5 meter for gamma and then correct my color using Calman HDR software and the C6 meter using JVC's color management system.

The C6 meter is about $750.00 whereas the X-rite i1DisplayPro2 is $1500 for the basic bundle software package.  I haven't seen where you can buy a new calibrated meter by itself without the bundle.

Any information you could provide that would help me with the decision would be greatly appreciated.  I have been told by the X-rite forum that the Spyder5 isn't accurate for low light color measurements and that the i1DisplayPro meter in conjunction with the i1DisplayPro2 colorimeter is the way to go.  Is there really much difference between the i1DisplayPro and the Spyder5.  It seems like you could use the i1DisplayPro2 to calibrate the Spyder5 and make it just as accurate as the i1DisplayPro? Or am I just completely confused?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on September 06, 2019, 02:10:29 PM
Posted by Manni in the RS1000/2000/33000 owners forum. "Spyder5 for gamma and i1pro2 for color is the best combination if you want to be able to use the JVC Autocal (please ask any further questions on that subject in the calibration thread).

The Discus is a great meter but it's not supported by JVC (yet). Neither is the C6. As you already have a Spyder5, the best addition would be an i1pro2, so you can use that to measure color in the JVC Autocal and to train your Spyder5 in any other software supporting both (most do)."


Hi Manni,

Continuing our conversation. 

I am a bit confused on the best inexpensive all around meters to use for display calibration. 
I understand that the JVC Autocal software is limited in it's support for the Spyder5 and the iDisplaypro2 meters but I may not want to be limited to just Autocal.  I am thinking of buying Calman HDR calibration software to calibrate multiple TVs and my projector.  I realize that I won't be making 3DLUT tables for the JVC like Autocal but I would think I could get respectable calibration using the Color Management System in the JVC projector.

My confusion comes from the iDisplayPro & Pro2.  My understanding is that the i1DisplayPro is a basic all around Spectrophotometer that can be calibrated with the i1DisplayPro2 to be used for accurate calibration.  Likewise I guess you can use the i1DisplayPro2 to calibrate the Spyder5 meter and use it for all around calibration.  But the i1DisplayPro2 is a colorimeter and by itself it basically can only be used with the JVC Autocal software standalone.  Is that correct?

I am looking at purchasing the Calman C6 2000 HDR meter for calibration since it is the cheaper priced all around meter.  I understand it can't be used with JVC Autocal but couldn't I just use the Spyder5 meter for gamma and then correct my color using Calman HDR software and the C6 meter using JVC's color management system.

The C6 meter is about $750.00 whereas the X-rite i1DisplayPro2 is $1500 for the basic bundle software package.  I haven't seen where you can by a new calibrated meter by itself without the bundle.

Any information you could provide that would help me with the decision would be greatly appreciated.  I have been told by the X-rite forum that the Spyder5 isn't accurate for low light color measurements and that the i1DisplayPro meter in conjunction with the i1DisplayPro2 colorimeter is the way to go.  Is there really much difference between the i1DisplayPro and the Spyder5.  It seems like you could use the i1DisplayPro2 to calibrate the Spyder5 and make it just as accurate as the i1DisplayPro? Or am I just completely confused?
You are confused about these meters.

This explains them pretty well.

https://displaycalibrations.com/x-rite_i1_measurement_solutions_info.html

i (https://displaycalibrations.com/x-rite_i1_measurement_solutions_info.html)1 Pro 2 is a spectrophotometer, the i1 DisplayPro is a colorimeter.

Generally you use the i1 Pro 2 to create a correction profile for a specific display for the i1 DisplayPro colormeter.

The spectrophotometer always sees the correct light from every type of display (within its resolution limitations).

A colormeter needs corrections for different display types (White LED, RGB LED, Rg Phosphor LED, OLED, HLD Lamp, Laser, LED Lamp, CCFL, etc).

The correction makes the colorimeter see the particular display in the same way the spectrophotometer sees it.

The reason you want both is because a spectrophotometer is much slower and much worse at low light readings.  A colormeter is much better at these.

The i1 Pro 2 is compatible with recent JVC autocal, but the i1 DisplayPro colorimeter is not.  But the i1 Pro 2 being a spectro is not good for low light reading, so it is not suitable for gamma autocal.  Color autocal only consists of reading a few 100% color patterns which are very bright, so it works.

The only colorimeter compatible with autocal is a Spyder5 and soon next month a SpyderX.  The colorimeter is suited for low light and works pretty well with the gamma autocal.

Both the i1 Pro 2 and i1 DisplayPro are compatible with virtually every calibration software on the market.  CalMAN, Lightspace, ChromaPure, HCFR, DisplayCAL, etc.


If you are going to do a lot of autocal, I would get an i1 Pro 2 and a Spyder.  If you are are going to be using other calibration software, a i1 DisplayPro is a good budget colorimeter, but you can go for something better as long as it will be compatible with the calibration software you plan to use.

Personally I would rather have a ~$400 i1 Pro 2 (from eBay) + a $200 i1 DisplayPro = $600 total rather than only buying a ~$600 colorimeter with no spectrophotometer to correct it for each display you are calibrating.

If you don't correct the colorimeter with a spectro I fear the results will be worse then a cheaper (but at least corrected colormeter).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: gregch on September 06, 2019, 02:48:30 PM
Ok thank you SirMaster.  That helps a lot. 

When you use the i1DisplayPro2 for correcting the i1DisplayPro is this usually done within the specific calibration software like Calman or LightSpace?  or does it require a separate set of software from X-rite specifically for this task?

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on September 06, 2019, 03:01:52 PM
Ok thank you SirMaster.  That helps a lot. 

When you use the i1DisplayPro2 for correcting the i1DisplayPro is this usually done within the specific calibration software like Calman or LightSpace?  or does it require a separate set of software from X-rite specifically for this task?
You typically create the correction within the calibration software you are using.

And just to clarify naming, because it's less confusing once you understand it.

The spectrophotometer is "i1 Pro 2", there is no "Display" word.  It's the second major product revision in the "i1 Pro" spectrophotmeter product line.  Technically it's "i1 Pro Rev. E" which is also called "i1 Pro 2".  Rev A-D are all original "i1 Pro" design, before the "2" new design.

The "Display" name is for the colorimeter only.  "i1Display Pro 3" is the colorimeter.  It's technically the 3rd major version of that product line.  The model number EODIS3.

People sometimes call it i1D3.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 06, 2019, 03:08:31 PM
Thanks Sirmaster for the detailed summary, nothing to add except that GregCh has indicated in the other thread that he already owns a Spyder 5 Elite. This is why I suggested the i1pro2 as the best choice in his situation if he wanted to gain anything by adding another tool to his toolbox, both with the JVC Autocal and with any other software.

Also GregCH you might want to look at the first post to see how the thread is organized. In the basic section there is a post called "Which meter to choose? (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10387#msg10387)" that will give you lots of info regarding each strength and weaknesses of each meter.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: gregch on September 06, 2019, 03:15:49 PM
Thanks Sirmaster for the detailed summary, nothing to add except that GregCh has indicated in the other thread that he already owns a Spyder 5 Elite. This is why I suggested the i1pro2 as the best choice in his situation if he wanted to gain anything by adding another tool to his toolbox, both with the JVC Autocal and with any other software.
Thanks Manni!  
Just one more question.  If I bought just the i1 pro 2 meter and I wanted to use Calman or LightSpace to calibrate a display other than the JVC projector,  could I use the i1 Pro 2 to color correct my Spyder5 meter and use that for calibration with those packages?  or do I need the i1DisplayPro meter and my Spyder5 is only good for gamma Autocal with the JVC. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on September 06, 2019, 03:19:34 PM
Ah yeah good deal.  The Spyder is certainly handy for fixing gamma droop that every JVC will suffer from.

I feel like with the combination of the i1 Pro 2 and i1Display Pro 3 along with free software such as HCFR and DisplayCAL I can calibrate essentially anything.  I have already calibrated a handful of projectors including JVC RS400, RS600, RS620, NX5, NX7, Sony HW50ES, HW55ES, Epson LS10500, Panasonic PT-AE8000U, and BenQ LK970.

I have also calibrated a bunch of computer monitors and a few TVs and so far with the combination of these 2 meters I am getting very consistently measured and consistent looking results on all the displays I have calibrated.

I find the free HCFR and DisplayCAL sufficient, but feel free to go with something like CalMAN if you want workflows or Lightspace or ChromaPure too.

I don't think there is a more cost-effective way to great calibration than this and again the great this is these 2 meters work with all the software, so you will never feel locked into anything.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 06, 2019, 03:20:36 PM
Thanks Manni! 
Just one more question.  If I bought just the i1 pro 2 meter and I wanted to use Calman or LightSpace to calibrate a display other than the JVC projector,  could I use the i1 Pro 2 to color correct my Spyder5 meter and use that for calibration with those packages?  or do I need the i1DisplayPro meter and my Spyder5 is only good for gamma Autocal with the JVC.

You'll be able to use the i1pro2 to correct your Spyder 5 with any calibration software. As far as I know, they all support both, hence my recommendation :). Calman and Lightspace definitely do.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 06, 2019, 03:22:55 PM
Ah yeah good deal.  The Spyder is certainly handy for fixing gamma droop that every JVC will suffer from.

I feel like with the combination of the i1 Pro 2 and i1Display Pro 3 along with free software such as HCFR and DisplayCAL I can calibrate essentially anything.  I have already calibrated a handful of projectors including JVC RS400, RS600, RS620, NX5, NX7, Sony HW50ES, HW55ES, Epson LS10500, Panasonic PT-AE8000U, and BenQ LK970.

I have also calibrated a bunch of computer monitors and a few TVs and so far with the combination of these 2 meters I am getting very consistently measured and consistent looking results on all the displays I have calibrated.

I find the free HCFR and DisplayCAL sufficient, but feel free to go with something like CalMAN if you want workflows or Lightspace or ChromaPure too.

I don't think there is a more cost-effective way to great calibration than this and again the great this is these 2 meters work with all the software, so you will never feel locked into anything.


Did you miss the part where I said that GregCH already owns a Spyder 5 Elite? :) 

There is no point in buying an i1d3 when you already have a Spyder 5 Elite, especially for JVC Autocal use.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on September 06, 2019, 03:24:02 PM
Thanks Manni! 
Just one more question.  If I bought just the i1 pro 2 meter and I wanted to use Calman or LightSpace to calibrate a display other than the JVC projector,  could I use the i1 Pro 2 to color correct my Spyder5 meter and use that for calibration with those packages?  or do I need the i1DisplayPro meter and my Spyder5 is only good for gamma Autocal with the JVC.

I have both a Spyder5 and the i1Display Pro 3.

It's true you can correct the Spyder5 with the i2 Pro 2 for use with calibration software other than autocal.

It will read the light correctly then on all different display types, but in my experience, the Spyder5 is not as consistent in its readings to get a really great calibration.  So it just depends on your goal for how accurate you want your calibration.

Also, the Spyder5 is not as good at reading low light off a projection screen which is normally how you would want to calibrate a projector so as to take into account the screen's color.

Finally, the Spyder5 is significantly slower than the i1Display Pro 3.  Like 5x slower.  So if you will be making any 3D LUTs, you would want the i1Display Pro 3 as it can save hours and will result in a much more consistent 3D LUT.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 06, 2019, 03:27:07 PM
I have both a Spyder5 and the i1Display Pro 3.

It's true you can correct the Spyder5 with the i2 Pro 2 for use with calibration software other than autocal.

It will read the light correctly then on all different display types, but in my experience, the Spyder5 is not as consistent in its readings to get a really great calibration.  So it just depends on your goal for how accurate you want your calibration.

Also, the Spyder5 is not as good at reading low light off a projection screen which is normally how you would want to calibrate a projector so as to take into account the screen's color.

Finally, the Spyder5 is significantly slower than the i1Display Pro 3.  Like 5x slower.  So if you will be making any 3D LUTs, you would want the i1Display Pro 3 as it can save hours and will result in a much more consistent 3D LUT.

Yes, yes, but GregCH already owns a Spyder 5 Elite :)

He doesn't want or even need to buy three meters. and he'll get a lot more from an i1pro2 (or compatible, I hope he's seen my edit about looking at the first post and the "Which Meter to use?" section, which lists far less expensive options than the i1pro2 basic package).

If he wants a better meter than the Spyder 5 with an i1pro2, then he should get a Discus, not an i1d3 which has very poor low light and is unable to read black.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on September 06, 2019, 03:28:17 PM

Did you miss the part where I said that GregCH already owns a Spyder 5 Elite? :)
No I got that haha.  That was my "ah yeah good deal" part about already having a Spyder.  I know it wasn't clear.

I guess I was just "adding" on to my previous thoughts about how well I think the combination of the 2 X-rite meters is for the price and if he finds himself wanting more consistency, low light, and speed than the Spyder5, to think about a i1Display Pro.  Or another better quality meter if he decides on a calibration software by then and picks a colorimeter compatible with it.

Your Discus is great, but unfortunately not compatible with the free tools :( which I find are pretty great.  I am getting really great results from HCFR for manual stuff and DisplayCAL 3D LUTs now that I have my process more refined.

But yes I agree he should start with a i1 Pro 2 with the Spyder5.  And he can look into a i1Display Pro or other colorimeter (depending on cal software compatibility)  If he finds the Spyder5 is not up to the task (consistency, low light, speed) he is asking of it.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 06, 2019, 03:35:23 PM
No I got that haha.  That was my "ah yeah good deal" part about already having a Spyder.  I know it wasn't clear.

I guess I was just "adding" on to my previous thoughts about how well I think the combination of the 2 X-rite meters is for the price and if he finds himself wanting more consistency, low light, and speed than the Spyder5, to think about a i1Display Pro.  Or another better quality meter if he decides on a calibration software by then and picks a colorimeter compatible with it.

Your Discus is great, but unfortunately not compatible with the free tools :( which I find are pretty great.  I am getting really great results from HCFR for manual stuff and DisplayCAL 3D LUTs now that I have my process more refined.

But yes I agree he should start with a i1 Pro 2 with the Spyder5.
Yes, but did you read the part where he mentioned Calman and Lightspace ? :)

I'd be using DisplayCAL a lot more if it had support for the Discus, but unfortunately Graeme (developer of ArgyllCMS) has made it very clear that it's not going to come any time soon unless someone sends him one (as a gift, not as a loan) which I'm not prepared to do. :)

Anyway, glad we agree about the first step,  now back to the JVC Autocal...
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on September 06, 2019, 03:39:56 PM
I just wanted him to have budget options.

The Discuss is great of course, but it's £750.00 = $920 USD as far as I can tell.  You can find the i1D3 for under $200 in the states.  If you need to measure black then yes go Discuss.  But if you like power gamma 2.2, 2.4, etc and don't need BT.1886, I have so far found that the i1D3 has no problems reading dark patches for 3DLUT on JVC off the screen, or 5% grey, etc.

Maybe this is not good enough, but for me so far it has been.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: gregch on September 06, 2019, 06:16:18 PM
Is the EFI ES-2000 the same as the i1 Pro 2?  Are there issues with using the EFI meter with JVC Autocal, LightSpace or Calman?

I found brand new full warranty EFI ES-2000 meters at Newegg software in the US for under $800. Best I could find a non-ebay i1 Pro 2 was $1165 US. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on September 06, 2019, 10:13:04 PM
Is the EFI ES-2000 the same as the i1 Pro 2?  Are there issues with using the EFI meter with JVC Autocal, LightSpace or Calman?

I found brand new full warranty EFI ES-2000 meters at Newegg software in the US for under $800. Best I could find a non-ebay i1 Pro 2 was $1165 US.

The hardware is the same, but the firmware may differ.

I know it will work in autocal, and DisplayCAL, but I do not know about other software unfortunately.  I would guess that it does, but I cannot be completely sure.


If you search around more I think you should be able to find the answer.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: ENT on September 11, 2019, 06:58:01 AM
Thanks for your feedback and confirmation, I've linked your post to the "Which meter to use" post. :)

Nice find on the Eizo, which looks like a clone of the Spyder 5 Express for half the price. If someone confirms that it works with the JVC Autocal V11 I'll mention it too.
Hi Manni,
I can confirm Eizo Ex3 is a Spyder 5 clone. Connected to  PC, with windows10, default name is Spyder 5 and use the same usb driver.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 11, 2019, 07:01:19 AM
Hi Manni,
I can confirm Eizo Ex3 is a Spyder 5 clone. Connected to  PC, with windows10, default name is Spyder 5 and use the same usb driver.
Great, thanks for this confirmation.

Just to make sure, you've tried it with the JVC Autocal V11 and the software accepts it as a Spyder 5?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: ENT on September 11, 2019, 07:24:14 AM
Looks like official SpyderX support for Autocal is being added in the next October firmware along with some other goodies.

New features
Frame by frame DTM HDR. Can also be set up for scene by scene. (uses 18-bit processing to avoid banding)
Anamorphic D (for DCR lens owners)
SpyderX support for autocal
More screen calibration presets

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2019/consumer/firmware_update.html (http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2019/consumer/firmware_update.html)
Other than SpyderX, the main improvement will be software in the HDR management, improvement as the HDR Adaptive frame, new default profiles as MadVR etc.


Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: ENT on September 12, 2019, 12:41:23 AM
Great, thanks for this confirmation.

Just to make sure, you've tried it with the JVC Autocal V11 and the software accepts it as a Spyder 5?
Hi Manni, this evening I will try with JVC Autocal and Calman.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 12, 2019, 12:56:56 AM
Hi Manni, this evening I will try with JVC Autocal and Calman.
Thanks, as soon as you confirm I'll link your confirmation in the "Which meter to use?" post.

I had already added there last week the information that Spyder X support was coming with the new f/w, but you gave the other improvements a lot more visibility with your (re)post above. :)

I have received a Spyder X yesterday (there is/was a significant discount on Amazon UK, so I took advantage of it as I wasn't sure if it would last or not). I haven't had the time to test it yet but I will. Not sure if Calman supports it yet, but Lightspace does. I'd like to check primarily the speed, which is apparently faster but it could be a software change, and the sensitivity near black. I hope to be able to post comparisons and first impressions by the time the Autocal software supporting it is released, so that people can decide if it's worth to upgrade or not if you already have a Spyder 5.

I already know that I don't like the new color. Anything white gets a thumb down in my bat cave, it hurts my eyes, but it's a meter, so I don't really mind, it won't be in my field of vision when I watch a film. :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: ENT on September 13, 2019, 07:50:45 AM
Thanks, as soon as you confirm I'll link your confirmation in the "Which meter to use?" post.

I had already added there last week the information that Spyder X support was coming with the new f/w, but you gave the other improvements a lot more visibility with your (re)post above. :)

I have received a Spyder X yesterday (there is/was a significant discount on Amazon UK, so I took advantage of it as I wasn't sure if it would last or not). I haven't had the time to test it yet but I will. Not sure if Calman supports it yet, but Lightspace does. I'd like to check primarily the speed, which is apparently faster but it could be a software change, and the sensitivity near black. I hope to be able to post comparisons and first impressions by the time the Autocal software supporting it is released, so that people can decide if it's worth to upgrade or not if you already have a Spyder 5.

I already know that I don't like the new color. Anything white gets a thumb down in my bat cave, it hurts my eyes, but it's a meter, so I don't really mind, it won't be in my field of vision when I watch a film. :)
Hi Manni, I tried Eizo E3X, it doesn't work neither with Calman nor with JVC Autocal. Also I tried with Spyder5 express proprietary software, it don't recognize the manufacturing, accept E3X as a spyder5 but highlights  a wrong vendor and stops running. Me too received a Spyder X yesterday  (the same discount in Amazon IT I think) about I have had the same impressions as yours. I tried it with Calman but doesen't work, for JVC autocal it is need to wait the next firmware release . If JVC keep what it promised, I think in the October a lot of external upscaling processors/HDR optimizers for the new JVC N/RS series could be unnecessary. In that case, a color calibration, with I1Pro/ES2000, and Gamma with SpyderX will be enough for a lot of profiles.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 13, 2019, 08:12:13 AM
Hi Manni, I tried Eizo E3X, it doesn't work neither with Calman nor with JVC Autocal. Also I tried with Spyder5 express proprietary software, it don't recognize the manufacturing, accept E3X as a spyder5 but highlights  a wrong vendor and stops running. Me too received a Spyder X yesterday  (the same discount in Amazon IT I think) about I have had the same impressions as yours. I tried it with Calman but doesen't work, for JVC autocal it is need to wait the next firmware release . If JVC keep what it promised, I think in the October a lot of external upscaling processors/HDR optimizers for the new JVC N/RS series could be unnecessary. In that case, a color calibration, with I1Pro/ES2000, and Gamma with SpyderX will be enough for a lot of profiles.
Thanks for confirming that the Eizo E3X doesn't work with the Autocal. I've made a note in the "Which meter to use? (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10387#msg10387)" section that links to your post. Yes, the version of Autocal supporting the Spyder X is expected after the f/w lands (or at the same time). The discount is the main reason why I bought it early.

Thanks also for confirming that Calman doesn't support it yet, I'll use Lighspace to do some initial testing when/if I find the time and I'll report back.

I'm sure that the new f/w will improve HDR significantly in most situations, but having spent the last couple of years helping madshi with madVR development and following the genesis of the Envy, I can tell you that I will be very surprised if JVC's dynamic tonemapping solution doesn't have any issues. It's very easy to cause flickering, unwanted brightness changes and so on with dynamic tonemapping. We'll see. Exciting times anyway, and very welcome development by JVC! :)

I also doubt that the result will be as good as madVR or the Envy, but there is no doubt it will be good enough for many, if not most. I'm expecting to receive an Envy as soon as it lands, so I'll post my impressions in the appropriate thread when that happens.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: ENT on September 13, 2019, 08:30:27 AM

Yes, but do you know the price suggested?
$ 9.979  Envy Pro Cinema
$ 5.499  Envy Base.
Upper than N7 for pro, upper to N5 for base, have it sense?


Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 13, 2019, 08:35:54 AM
Yes, but do you know the price suggested?
$ 9.979  Envy Pro Cinema
$ 5.499  Envy Base.
Upper than N7 for pro, upper to N5 for base, have it sense?
To me, yes, completely, but as I said I don't expect it to be the case for everyone. Let's keep the thread on topic and discuss the Envy in its own thread :)
Thanks again for your confirmation.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Killroy™ on September 13, 2019, 01:47:37 PM
With 5-days left in the Loyalty upgrade sale for the Spyder X I think I will bite the bullet and upgrade my Spyder 5 (at least I can keep it just in case) and will get the EFI ES-2000 for color. Thanks for that great tip as the $1400 price for the i1Pro2 was a bitter pill to swallow.

Now I can sit down and spend many happy hours in the dark trying to get the calibration just right...of course once the new firmware drops. Also planning on doing a 3DLut but that's a whole different thread.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 14, 2019, 12:20:51 PM
Very good review of the Spyder X by Tom Huffman (https://www.chromapure.com/newgear-new.asp) (owner of Chromapure).

Twice as fast, 10x better low light sensibility (though not as good as the i1DisplayPro).

Based on this review, it sounds like the Spyder X will be a worthy upgrade for Autocal users over the Spyder 5, unlike the upgrade from Spyder 4 to 5 which was very minimal.

I'm glad I snapped one of these Amazon.co.uk deals :)

Still haven't had the time to crack the box open, the fact that it's not supported by Calman yet is a bummer.

I'll update the thread whenever I've had a chance to try it (it might take a while, I'm completely snowed under with work at the moment).

I attach the main results below (measurements taken by his CR300), please look at Tom's review (https://www.chromapure.com/newgear-new.asp) for more details.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Killroy™ on September 14, 2019, 03:31:48 PM
Someone brought up a good question on the "other" forum....

Do you recommend doing two calibrations if you use an anamorphic lens on a slider? One for the 16:9/lens-off then one for the scope/lens-on (horizontally expanded since I use an ISCO IIIL) or just the one at 16:9 with no lens.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 14, 2019, 04:35:06 PM
Someone brought up a good question on the "other" forum....

Do you recommend doing two calibrations if you use an anamorphic lens on a slider? One for the 16:9/lens-off then one for the scope/lens-on (horizontally expanded since I use an ISCO IIIL) or just the one at 16:9 with no lens.
I don't have an anamorphic lens so I'll let others reply, but I would expect that you have to adjust the iris to get the same brightness between the two modes, so yes, you would need at least two different color calibrations if there are more than 3-5 steps between the two iris settings.

Then I guess you'll need to different picture profiles to select the iris settings automatically.

But really I've never had an anamorphic lens so I'll let someone with first hand experience to comment on their best practice.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: ENT on September 17, 2019, 12:10:17 AM
…..

I'm sure that the new f/w will improve HDR significantly in most situations, but having spent the last couple of years helping madshi with madVR development and following the genesis of the Envy, I can tell you that I will be very surprised if JVC's dynamic tonemapping solution doesn't have any issues. It's very easy to cause flickering, unwanted brightness changes and so on with dynamic tonemapping. We'll see. Exciting times anyway, and very welcome development by JVC! :)

I also doubt that the result will be as good as madVR or the Envy, but there is no doubt it will be good enough for many, if not most. I'm expecting to receive an Envy as soon as it lands, so I'll post my impressions in the appropriate thread when that happens.
Hi Manni, from CEDIA 2019:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE8fkMKcpKI
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: raheaps on September 17, 2019, 12:52:52 PM
Received an email from Datacolor with a 30% off offer for the Spyder X.  On their website they have a comparison chart showing the Spyder Pro & Spyder Elite.  In the category of projector calibration they show only the Elite for projector calibration.  The Pro is mentioned in numerous places on the forum for JVC calibration.  Is the Elite the one to buy?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on September 17, 2019, 12:58:03 PM
Received an email from Datacolor with a 30% off offer for the Spyder X.  On their website they have a comparison chart showing the Spyder Pro & Spyder Elite.  In the category of projector calibration they show only the Elite for projector calibration.  The Pro is mentioned in numerous places on the forum for JVC calibration.  Is the Elite the one to buy?
No, they are just referring to their own software.

There is no difference between the Pro and Elite other than the features unlocked in their own software.

But I wouldn't recommend using their software.  Use Autocal for your JVC, DisplayCAL for your computer monitors, and HCFR for other displays IMO.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: raheaps on September 17, 2019, 01:08:29 PM
Thanks for the quick response.  I intend to use only the JVC software.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Clark Burk on September 17, 2019, 02:09:54 PM
Good through the 18th. Use the Spyder Loyalty program to get the Spyder X at a good price. If you've owned a Spyder product before check it out. Be honest now;) Here's the link. I couldn't turn down the chance to get one at this price as it looks like JVC will be using this as one of the compatible units for their new Auto Calibration Software. Manni probably knows best but this is for the Pro version which is all that should be needed.

https://www.datacolor.com/photography-design/promotions/upgrade-to-spyderx-us-offer/ (https://www.datacolor.com/photography-design/promotions/upgrade-to-spyderx-us-offer/)

DEAL HAS EXPIRED
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: den110 on September 17, 2019, 04:36:31 PM
Good through the 18th. Use the Spyder Loyalty program to get the Spyder X at a good price. If you've owned a Spyder product before check it out. Be honest now;) Here's the link. I couldn't turn down the chance to get one at this price as it looks like JVC will be using this as one of the compatible units for their new Auto Calibration Software. Manni probably knows best but this is for the Pro version which is all that should be needed.

https://www.datacolor.com/photography-design/promotions/upgrade-to-spyderx-us-offer/ (https://www.datacolor.com/photography-design/promotions/upgrade-to-spyderx-us-offer/)

This is for those of us that never register our products unless we get a better warranty lol.

Just ordered the SpyderX Pro.  Great price, thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on September 23, 2019, 05:03:16 AM
Other than SpyderX, the main improvement will be software in the HDR management, improvement as the HDR Adaptive frame, new default profiles as MadVR etc.
There is no new default profile for MadVR. It is simply a customized (and renamed) profile made by the owner.
And HDR Adaptive frame is still the same feature with a different name.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 26, 2019, 10:54:10 AM
Me too received a Spyder X yesterday  (the same discount in Amazon IT I think) about I have had the same impressions as yours. I tried it with Calman but doesen't work.

Hi Ent,

Did you by any chance try to see if Calman 2019 R2 supports the Spyder X? I don't think it does, but I haven't had the time to test yet.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: ENT on September 27, 2019, 10:55:07 AM
Hi Ent,

Did you by any chance try to see if Calman 2019 R2 supports the Spyder X? I don't think it does, but I haven't had the time to test yet.
Hi Manni, you thought right, I tried but it doesn't work with Calman 2019 R2.

This means that who don't have an alternative at Spyder X colorimeter  for use with Calman must to buy it.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 27, 2019, 11:06:52 AM
Thanks for your confirmation!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: dlinsley on September 28, 2019, 05:07:39 PM
I finally had enough hours (~120) on my RS3000's bulb to do a calibration. The attached was measured at my SDR settings on -7 low lamp (DI on manual for measurement). Has anyone else measured such a droop after so short a time? OOB measurements I've seen earlier were very good.

Also, the contrast seemed very low though taken off the screen (with a Discus trained to an i1Pro2 which in the past measured 65k off the screen with my RS600). I repeated the measurements at the lens with a Sper NIST certified (new earlier this year) meter, and it confirmed. With Hide I can get 47k:1, but the brightness control takes it no lower than 4k:1. This was with a 0IRE pattern from a Lumagen and duplicated with a test disk.

Will autocal help me correct the lack of contrast? I checked the dark level etc in the gamma settings, but everything is default. I'm going to try a factory reset of setting, and then an autocal if it's still the same - I can only think the internal calibration has 16 set incorrectly and hide bypasses it, since the brightness control cannot crush so that black is as black as hide. Fade to black in Auto2 is super dark though, so the DI works fine (and is why I've not really questioned it till now).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 29, 2019, 12:39:10 AM
This is highly unusual.

First, the brightness control should allow you to get the blackest black. On these units, it needs to be set to -2 or -3 most of the time, but there is unit to unit variation.

If you can get a blacker level with hide, something is wrong. Are you sure that your levels are set correctly? Try to force HDMI to standard or enhanced, or set it to AUTO and see if it makes a difference.

If the PJ is set to the correct levels for the source with the correct brightness setting, what you describe shouldn't happen.

Second, the JVC Autocal should be able to correct almost any gamma droop, but gamma doesn't (or shouldn't) affect contrast, as gamma only adjusts between black and white. It doesn't touch black or white, so shouldn't really have much of an impact on contrast.

Brightness will control black and contrast white.

If you use offsets wrongly (for example, by adding instead of substracting values), you can raise your black levels.

If you set gains wrongly you can also lower your contrast.

But a gamma autocal, while it will restore picture depth especially in the high end, because that's where the droop happens (levels at 70-95 are too high, gamma is too low, and the picture lacks depth), it should not change on/off contrast.

So my advice is:

1) Switch the DI off. It's irrelevant for now.
2) Check your levels with a  black levels pattern. 16 and below should be black (not grey). 17 just above black, unless that raise the black levels at 16, in which case crush it. My recommendation is to set the source to standard (GPU full and madVR 16-235 if you use madVR) and the PJ to standard, but ideally test with a non HTPC source because levels can be wrong on a HTPC depending on the OS and GPU driver, so let's rule this out for now.
3) Adjust brightness so that using hide doesn't make any difference. For most, with the correct levels, it has to be set to -2 or -3.
4) You should get a native on off at the same level as what you measure with "hide", 47,000:1 native with the iris on -7 sounds a bit high but if you are at long throw, much closer to what it should be than 4000:1, which cannot be correct.
5) Once you get a basic working baseline, run a gamma autocal to get rid of the gamma droop. You should get a picture with more depth, but it shouldn't improve your on/off significantly.

Please let us know once you've checked your levels and set brightness correctly if you still have this issue.

You might have to use a difference source, reset the PJ settings to factory default or take the Radiance out until you get a proper baseline, then once you've identified the culprit, work out the reason.

There is no point in running an autocal if you have 4,000:1 native contrast with your current settings. That won't change with an autocal, so there is an incorrect setting somewhere.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: dlinsley on September 30, 2019, 08:33:22 PM
Thanks Manni. I hope to get some time over the next few days to try and rectify this.

BTW the 47k:1 is up against the limit of the Sper meter. Without hide it reads 0.13 lux and with hide 0.01 but that is its minimum reading, so could really be 0.015 (presuming it would round up to 0.02 otherwise) and so 31k:1 which seems more probable.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on September 30, 2019, 11:28:13 PM
Thanks Manni. I hope to get some time over the next few days to try and rectify this.

BTW the 47k:1 is up against the limit of the Sper meter. Without hide it reads 0.13 lux and with hide 0.01 but that is its minimum reading, so could really be 0.015 (presuming it would round up to 0.02 otherwise) and so 31k:1 which seems more probable.
You need to bring the light meter closer to the lens if you're that close to its limit when reading black. As long as you don't get closer to its upper limit, it doesn't matter where you stand. Try 3-4 feet from the lens if you're still within its upper limit.
The Discus should be able to read that on/off off the screen if you read it right after its initialization.
Black should read the same with and without hide if levels and brightness are set correctly.
Keep us posted!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: riddle on October 01, 2019, 01:01:39 PM
Hi, does some one tested thats new FW for JVC? What i saw and readed how will works there calibration? On all photos what i saw there is only option for "color temperatures" where you can set somethink... so calibration will works only by JVC Autocal? This is little confuced for me...

Thank you
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 01, 2019, 02:15:20 PM
Thanks Manni. I hope to get some time over the next few days to try and rectify this.

BTW the 47k:1 is up against the limit of the Sper meter. Without hide it reads 0.13 lux and with hide 0.01 but that is its minimum reading, so could really be 0.015 (presuming it would round up to 0.02 otherwise) and so 31k:1 which seems more probable.
As Manni states, you should be measuring from the projector's lens, as close as you can get it without maxing out the meter for your peak white lux reading. Most of these meters are more accurate in the upper registers of their measuring capability. So keeping the black level reading as high as you can get it in lux on the meter should mean you're getting the most accurate reading your meter allows. This should be within a foot or so in front of the projector.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: dlinsley on October 01, 2019, 02:34:16 PM
My light meter was about 6" from the lens. I guess it is just not sensitive enough at the low end.

I can't believe I didn't check this, but I had a positive offset in the RGB controls. Redoing the D65 setting results in 34k:1 as read off the screen by the Discus :)

Autocal corrected the droop (though a strange result at 95%), but the gamma is much higher than the 2.4 expected. I'm verifying with Discus and Calman 2018 (last version of Enthusiast before they killed it), and have Calman set for power 2.4, and autocal correctly read my Picture Mode as using the 2.4 setting. The graph after autocal was only a tad off the 2.4 line. I can try later with 2.2 to see if it corrects it, but I thought JVC really used 2.2 and then calculated the other powers from it.

Note on the 95IRE reading, Calman's peak white workflow where it reads 90 through 100 shows no clipping, so contrast is set correctly. Average DE is great, was just expecting autocal'ed gamma to be almost perfect.

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 01, 2019, 02:52:36 PM
Yes, as I said positive offsets for RGB balance is a classic mistake and the best way to raise your black floor and kill your contrast. Glad we've solved the contrast issue.
Re your post-cal graphs, this doesn't look like what you should get after a proper autocal. You should have a flat gamma at the requested target, not such a wonky curve.
Make sure you follow the instructions in the basic section, that the Spyder is positioned properly when doing the gamma autocal, and that you train the Discus to a reference meter before measuring gamma post-cal.
Also take screenshots of the logs taken after the autocal by the autocal itself, to see how it sees the calibration.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 02, 2019, 07:23:51 PM

I'm doing an autocal on my NX9 running v2.07 with JVC autocal v1.10 and I wanted to ensure the same specifics for the autocal apply as did for my old x970R on the other JVC autocal software:

a. gamma only calibration (using Spyder5Pro) in Custom1 with Rec.709 (non-filter) in low lamp with iris wide open to allow max. light - or, should I be using the Natural mode?
b. Brightness & Contrast @ 0
c. once gamma calibrated, all gamma curves used on modes that use low lamp are considered calibrated (including HDR(PQ)); any modes using high lamp would require a separate gamma calibration done while on high lamp
d. after initial calibration, take backup.ini file and save it somewhere safe to be able to restore to factory settings later if required


Did I miss anything? Anything to add?

(I can't remember if one gamma calibration calibrates every single gamma curve (SDR & HDR; low & high lamp; filter and non-filter) or if that was only for color calibrations)

Finally, a question:
1. I've decided I'm not going to do a colour calibration using the jvc autocal+Spyder5Pro. So I'll use my i1DPro off screen
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: grendelrt on October 03, 2019, 10:12:22 AM
Yes, as I said positive offsets for RGB balance is a classic mistake and the best way to raise your black floor and kill your contrast. Glad we've solved the contrast issue.
Re your post-cal graphs, this doesn't look like what you should get after a proper autocal. You should have a flat gamma at the requested target, not such a wonky curve.
Make sure you follow the instructions in the basic section, that the Spyder is positioned properly when doing the gamma autocal, and that you train the Discus to a reference meter before measuring gamma post-cal.
Also take screenshots of the logs taken after the autocal by the autocal itself, to see how it sees the calibration.
Hi Manni, can I ask for a little more info on this, I saw Tim said something similar and not at the same time haha. He says to raise values instead of reduce but then says raising may cause black lift (which coincides with your view). 

When adjusting RGB Low values the rule of thumb is to only raise the necessary RGB values to attain Grey Scale Balance, and not reduce values. This is to prevent 0% blacks crushing. As with the RGB High rules of thumb, this is not always the best approach as lifting values may cause black to lift too much.

Is this mainly concerning a 2 point adjustment (not a 12pt?) and what is the correct route to take, always error on dropping offset values when adjusting the low end?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 03, 2019, 10:17:20 AM
I'm doing an autocal on my NX9 running v2.07 with JVC autocal v1.10 and I wanted to ensure the same specifics for the autocal apply as did for my old x970R on the other JVC autocal software:

a. gamma only calibration (using Spyder5Pro) in Custom1 with Rec.709 (non-filter) in low lamp with iris wide open to allow max. light - or, should I be using the Natural mode?
b. Brightness & Contrast @ 0
c. once gamma calibrated, all gamma curves used on modes that use low lamp are considered calibrated (including HDR(PQ)); any modes using high lamp would require a separate gamma calibration done while on high lamp
d. after initial calibration, take backup.ini file and save it somewhere safe to be able to restore to factory settings later if required


Did I miss anything? Anything to add?

(I can't remember if one gamma calibration calibrates every single gamma curve (SDR & HDR; low & high lamp; filter and non-filter) or if that was only for color calibrations)

Finally, a question:
1. I've decided I'm not going to do a colour calibration using the jvc autocal+Spyder5Pro. So I'll use my i1DPro off screen
Please read the basic section (see post #1), it should answer most of your questions.
Once you have, please post again if you still have anything that's unclear. :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on October 03, 2019, 10:21:49 AM
Hi Manni, can I ask for a little more info on this, I saw Tim said something similar and not at the same time haha. He says to raise values instead of reduce but then says raising may cause black lift (which coincides with your view).

When adjusting RGB Low values the rule of thumb is to only raise the necessary RGB values to attain Grey Scale Balance, and not reduce values. This is to prevent 0% blacks crushing. As with the RGB High rules of thumb, this is not always the best approach as lifting values may cause black to lift too much.

Is this mainly concerning a 2 point adjustment (not a 12pt?) and what is the correct route to take, always error on dropping offset values when adjusting the low end?

12-point is going to be a gamma adjustment as far as I know which is different.  And a gamma adjustment shouldn't be able to affect black.

Usually the first point on 12-point is 5%.

With offset/bias control it seems to affect a gigantic dark range including for some reason black at 0%.

The other control in the 2-point is the gain which can affect 100% white (but also the 12-point gamma can't affect white and the 12th point is usually 95%).

So it seems by my experience that gain/offset(bias) or "2-point" is fundamentally different than the multi-points which have always seemed to be essentially RGB gamma adjustment controls.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 03, 2019, 10:22:30 AM
Hi Manni, can I ask for a little more info on this, I saw Tim said something similar and not at the same time haha. He says to raise values instead of reduce but then says raising may cause black lift (which coincides with your view).

When adjusting RGB Low values the rule of thumb is to only raise the necessary RGB values to attain Grey Scale Balance, and not reduce values. This is to prevent 0% blacks crushing. As with the RGB High rules of thumb, this is not always the best approach as lifting values may cause black to lift too much.

Is this mainly concerning a 2 point adjustment (not a 12pt?) and what is the correct route to take, always error on dropping offset values when adjusting the low end?


The main rules of RGB balance are:
- Never change more than two values out of three
- Never raise values, only lower, especially for offsets
- You might need to adjust brightness after setting the offsets, and vice versa.
- Never try to resolve 17 if that comes at the cost of raising the black floor. It's fine to crush or only half resolve 17. Raising black is a no-no (if you care about contrast).

Frankly, with the Autocal, there is little use for gamma controls. You just run a gamma autocal (preferably with the Spyder) then as many color ones as needed (preferably with the i1pro2) and then you correct 100% white if needed.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: grendelrt on October 03, 2019, 10:33:19 AM
12-point is going to be a gamma adjustment as far as I know which is different.  And a gamma adjustment shouldn't be able to affect black.

Usually the first point on 12-point is 5%.

With offset/bias control it seems to affect a gigantic dark range including for some reason black at 0%.

The other control in the 2-point is the gain which can affect 100% white (but also the 12-point gamma can't affect white and the 12th point is usually 95%).

So it seems by my experience that gain/offset(bias) or "2-point" is fundamentally different than the multi-points which have always seemed to be essentially RGB gamma adjustment controls.
Right, I probably should not have mentioned 12pt in this case, I haven't calibrated since March and things get jumbled lol. So if calibrating the gray scale with gain and offset , on the low end you only drop values and try to never raise them?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on October 03, 2019, 10:34:55 AM
I was considering using the 12-point gamma curve editor in autocal to fix my calibration after autocal, but I tihnk maybe I just need to try running it all again.

For some reason on my latest autocal I did not get very good results when I went to measure them after.

Stock:
https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/stock.pdf (https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/stock.pdf)

Autocal:
https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/autocal.pdf (https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/autocal.pdf)

3DLUT:
https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/3dlut.pdf (https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal/3dlut.pdf)

Autocal was run with Spyder5 and i1Pro2.

Measurements were done with i1D3 trained to the i1Pro2 (in the same configuration as used for the autocal).  3DLUT was also done with the i1D3 (via DisplayCAL) in the same configuration as used for the measurements.


At this point though I am thinking I will just wait for firmware 3.10 before I go redo autocal.

I am hoping that it also fixes my issue of my DCI color profile not accepting an autocal.  Because I would prefer to generate my 3DLUT against DCI color profile rather than HDR color profile (BT.2020).

I wonder though, do you think if I create a custom color profile set to DCI color space that maybe that would accept my autocal?  Any downsides to using a custom DCI color profile over the stock one?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on October 03, 2019, 10:40:06 AM
Right, I probably should not have mentioned 12pt in this case, I haven't calibrated since March and things get jumbled lol. So if calibrating the gray scale with gain and offset , on the low end you only drop values and try to never raise them?
Personally if doing a manual calibration I prefer olny using the gain control to set 100% white and then much prefer using the multi-point RGB gamma controls to set the white balance rather than try to do it all with gain and offset/bias.

In HCFR for instance you can enable to show the greyscale with gamma, so you are calibrating both the gamma and white balance at the same time bringing all 3 colors to 100%.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: grendelrt on October 03, 2019, 04:12:56 PM
Going to try autocal for the first time tonight. I read through the instructions (thank you!) and had one quick question. I see where you set your brightness, I have mine all set to -2 currently on a RS2000 to get the right black floor. When running autocal, do you use the brightness you have set or do you set it back to 0 prior? 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 03, 2019, 04:35:01 PM
Going to try autocal for the first time tonight. I read through the instructions (thank you!) and had one quick question. I see where you set your brightness, I have mine all set to -2 currently on a RS2000 to get the right black floor. When running autocal, do you use the brightness you have set or do you set it back to 0 prior?
Keep the brightness as it's set. Most user settings are ignored during autocal. For example, your RGB offsets and gains are ignored (color temp settings), so you can leave them as they are in theory, but it's recommended to reset them so that 1) the post-cal log in the autocal is correct and 2) you don't forget to check and correct the gains afterwards, instead of having the "old" gains or offsets applied, as this will most of the time cause wrong results.

It's also recommended to use a 2.2 gamma target so you can see if your calibration is correct in the Autocal post cal log, as the "flat" line is always 2.2. Any other target, it's going to be difficult to know from the Autocal log if your gamma calibration went well or not. As all gamma curves are calibrated at the same time, you can simply select the best gamma preset after calibration.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Killroy™ on October 03, 2019, 04:36:16 PM
I had already done one color calibration for BT.2020 with my i1Pro2 and it looked great but I had noticed some highlight crush and blooming. Could have been my calibration, could have been my settings with MadVR but the latter looked great on my other set up so I did not think that was it.

I took madshi's suggestion to try a DCI-P3 calibration so I re-ran autocal on a separate user setting that I had already done a gamma and I can honestly say that I prefer the DCI calibration better than BT2020. The only way I can describe it is that it calmed everything down. The saturations looked far more natural with UHDs and even with BDs they looked awesome. I think this will be my new standard setting.

BTW, the JVC AutoCal is just freaking awesome. SO easy and quick. Can't wait to see if the new tone mapping firmware brings anything as close to MadVR for my other sources.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 03, 2019, 04:41:46 PM
I had already done one color calibration for BT.2020 with my i1Pro2 and it looked great but I had noticed some highlight crush and blooming. Could have been my calibration, could have been my settings with MadVR but the latter looked great on my other set up so I did not think that was it.

I took madshi's suggestion to try a DCI-P3 calibration so I re-ran autocal on a separate user setting that I had already done a gamma and I can honestly say that I prefer the DCI calibration better than BT2020. The only way I can describe it is that it calmed everything down. The saturations looked far more natural with UHDs and even with BDs they looked awesome. I think this will be my new standard setting.

BTW, the JVC AutoCal is just freaking awesome. SO easy and quick. Can't wait to see if the new tone mapping firmware brings anything as close to MadVR for my other sources.
If you use madVR (or the Radiance Pro), DCI-P3 is recommended indeed, especially if you use a 3D LUT after the Autocal, as long as you tell madVR that your display is calibrated to P3 or you use a P3 3D LUT.

BT2020 3D LUTs can cause a lot of posterization and don't give any advantage on our models as they don't reach beyond P3.

For consumer sources, BT2020 saturations is the only option, as they can't output DCI-P3.

Highlights crush and blooming in HDR is usually due to the DI, try disabling it, especially if the manual iris is fully open. The more open the manual iris, the more artifacts (at least on rs1000/2000, the rs3000 seems to be exempt).

There shouldn't be (m)any artifacts with the manual iris set to -10 or below. hopefully the upcoming f/w will improve this. I heard it might improve the yellowing, which would be great if true.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 03, 2019, 08:45:10 PM
Did a JVC gamma+color autocal tonight on all my used modes (low/high lamp; with/without filter; iris positions) and then proceeded to use HCFR and my i1DPro to fine tune off screen my SDR BT2020 mode.
I also set my screen type.
Brightness @ -3; contrast @ 1

My gamma is set at 2.4.

Required a -8 deduction in green gain and couple more less major adjustments in blue/red offsets.  
Does that sound about right or too much?

When viewing a dark HDR movie (madvr is outputting SDR to this mode), I find I'm losing some details in dark scenes somehow - they seem too dark/losing shadow detail?
I'm wondering, should I be either setting gamma at 2.3; adjusting one of the gamma controls up; or, just increasing brightness to -2 instead of -3?
I can barely see 16 flash on Brightness -2 from my seating position, and can actually see 17 better @ -2.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 03, 2019, 09:05:16 PM
I setup 4 user modes as per Manni's setup guide posts,  I'd like to use Natural for TV & Custom1 for film, as you have indicated, but if I calibrate gains/offsets on 6500 color profile for the SDR BT2020 mode (after autocal with HCFR+i1DPro), which other color profiles (7500? Custom?) should I use to adjust offsets/gains for the Natural and SDR Rec709 modes?  Does it matter?

I tried measuring and adjusting SDR Rec709 mode with Custom color profile and it seemed I needed quite a bit of boost in blue offset to get it even close to true 6500K.  Does that sound normal? 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 04, 2019, 12:33:29 AM
Did a JVC gamma+color autocal tonight on all my used modes (low/high lamp; with/without filter; iris positions) and then proceeded to use HCFR and my i1DPro to fine tune off screen my SDR BT2020 mode.
I also set my screen type.
Brightness @ -3; contrast @ 1

My gamma is set at 2.4.

Required a -8 deduction in green gain and couple more less major adjustments in blue/red offsets. 
Does that sound about right or too much?

When viewing a dark HDR movie (madvr is outputting SDR to this mode), I find I'm losing some details in dark scenes somehow - they seem too dark/losing shadow detail?
I'm wondering, should I be either setting gamma at 2.3; adjusting one of the gamma controls up; or, just increasing brightness to -2 instead of -3?
I can barely see 16 flash on Brightness -2 from my seating position, and can actually see 17 better @ -2.
If your SDR BT2020 is properly calibrated, it doesn't matter which gamma it uses as long as you tell it to madVR in the calibration tab. If you use a 3D LUT with madVR, it should have a target of 2.2 (it doesn't matter what the display is calibrated to, you can leave it to 2.4 if you want it to work with other sources). You shouldn't have that problem with dark scenes, as long as you use dynamic tonemapping and the latest test build, with the correct settings. Please let's not discuss madVR here, it will derail the thread very quickly :). All questions about the test builds in the madVR thread where they are posted, as they are not meant for the end user and settings change daily.

Back to topic. You shouldn't see 16 flash. 16 is black. It should NEVER flash. So use whicheve brightness setting that has 16 not flash and either 17 or 18 flash. Do not make 17 flash if it raises 16 and makes it flash too. That will kill your contrast.

-8 on green sounds a bit too much if you did the color calibration with an i1pro, but you shouldn't set your screen type when using the i1pro, because it reads off the screen so the screen is already taken into account, that's the most probable reason. It should be explained in the basic section, if it isn't please let me know and I'll correct it.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 04, 2019, 12:38:46 AM
I setup 4 user modes as per Manni's setup guide posts,  I'd like to use Natural for TV & Custom1 for film, as you have indicated, but if I calibrate gains/offsets on 6500 color profile for the SDR BT2020 mode (after autocal with HCFR+i1DPro), which other color profiles (7500? Custom?) should I use to adjust offsets/gains for the Natural and SDR Rec709 modes?  Does it matter?

I tried measuring and adjusting SDR Rec709 mode with Custom color profile and it seemed I needed quite a bit of boost in blue offset to get it even close to true 6500K.  Does that sound normal?
I use 6500K (factory preset) in my SDR wide gamut calibration, and then I use a different custom color temp with a 6500K base for each separate calibration. Natural and rec-709 can use the same one as they should be sharing the same lamp/filter settings.

Make sure you don't set the screen type as you use an i1pro off the screen for color autocal, and see if it improves things. There shouldn't be any significant changes to color temp after an autocal with an i1pro.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: dlinsley on October 04, 2019, 05:55:01 AM
I completely re-did my autocal, following the steps (almost) religiously. I think I went wrong previously by missing the need to reset offset/gain before autocal, and set them back to all zeros and also switched my gamma to 2.2 so that I see autocal results as it sees it.

I started with color only using the i1pro2 (EFI-ES2000), and then switched to gamma with the Spyder 5. The pictures are from Calman with the Discus trained to the i1 using the same low light 500 nits settings and long integration etc - note I switched back to 2.4 gamma that I use. In the After Autocal result below you can see the RGB balance has divergent green and blue, red almost perfect, but after setting gains to -3/-9/0 (offsets all zero) the result is almost perfect. Contrast is a little down from last time, but this was at -6 compared to -7 before.

I'm not quite hitting green or cyan in BT709, and these results were with the iris at -6, so I may try my SDR setting with the filter in place as I have some light to spare.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 04, 2019, 06:09:34 AM
If your SDR BT2020 is properly calibrated, it doesn't matter which gamma it uses as long as you tell it to madVR in the calibration tab. If you use a 3D LUT with madVR, it should have a target of 2.2 (it doesn't matter what the display is calibrated to, you can leave it to 2.4 if you want it to work with other sources). You shouldn't have that problem with dark scenes, as long as you use dynamic tonemapping and the latest test build, with the correct settings. Please let's not discuss madVR here, it will derail the thread very quickly :). All questions about the test builds in the madVR thread where they are posted, as they are not meant for the end user and settings change daily.

Back to topic. You shouldn't see 16 flash. 16 is black. It should NEVER flash. So use whicheve brightness setting that has 16 not flash and either 17 or 18 flash. Do not make 17 flash if it raises 16 and makes it flash too. That will kill your contrast.

-8 on green sounds a bit too much if you did the color calibration with an i1pro, but you shouldn't set your screen type when using the i1pro, because it reads off the screen so the screen is already taken into account, that's the most probable reason. It should be explained in the basic section, if it isn't please let me know and I'll correct it.
When ensuring 16 doesn't flash and 17 does, is this as per what I see from my viewing position - or when I'm up close to the screen?
It's literally -2 Brightness from my viewing position (knowing up close 16 will flash if I walked up to screen to view).  If I go to -3 from my viewing position I can barely see 17 flash.

Regarding the color calibration - I did i1dpro off screen - I did JVC autocal with Spyder5Pro facing lens before.  I set my screen type because I used the Spyder5Pro.  Does the fact I used the i1dpro+HCFR to fine tune after mean I should NOT be setting the screen type?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 04, 2019, 06:15:06 AM
I use 6500K (factory preset) in my SDR wide gamut calibration, and then I use a different custom color temp with a 6500K base for each separate calibration. Natural and rec-709 can use the same one as they should be sharing the same lamp/filter settings.

Make sure you don't set the screen type as you use an i1pro off the screen for color autocal, and see if it improves things. There shouldn't be any significant changes to color temp after an autocal with an i1pro.
Ok, that's what I'll do too.

Just to be clear:  I use a Spyder5Pro facing projector for JVC autocal of gamma+color, then I fine tune with HCFR+i1DPro off screen.  I had thought that the i1DPro doesn't work with JVC autocal (otherwise, I'd use that for it and then the fine-tuning off screen).

Finally - all of this calibration is a bit premature as I only have 73 hrs on the bulb (just getting practiced up for doing it a bit later once bulb burns in).  On that last point, how many bulb hrs exactly should I be doing the real calibration after?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 04, 2019, 07:36:13 AM
When ensuring 16 doesn't flash and 17 does, is this as per what I see from my viewing position - or when I'm up close to the screen?
It's literally -2 Brightness from my viewing position (knowing up close 16 will flash if I walked up to screen to view).  If I go to -3 from my viewing position I can barely see 17 flash.

Regarding the color calibration - I did i1dpro off screen - I did JVC autocal with Spyder5Pro facing lens before.  I set my screen type because I used the Spyder5Pro.  Does the fact I used the i1dpro+HCFR to fine tune after mean I should NOT be setting the screen type?
16 should NEVER flash, whether you have your nose up to the screen or from your sitting position. Better crush 17 than raise black (16). You should use the i1pro off screen with the autocal to do your color calibration. I think it should be supported. Then you only need to use the Discus trained to the i1pro to verify with Calman. This should give you better results.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 04, 2019, 07:39:17 AM
Ok, that's what I'll do too.

Just to be clear:  I use a Spyder5Pro facing projector for JVC autocal of gamma+color, then I fine tune with HCFR+i1DPro off screen.  I had thought that the i1DPro doesn't work with JVC autocal (otherwise, I'd use that for it and then the fine-tuning off screen).

Finally - all of this calibration is a bit premature as I only have 73 hrs on the bulb (just getting practiced up for doing it a bit later once bulb burns in).  On that last point, how many bulb hrs exactly should I be doing the real calibration after?
As I said above, the i1pro should work fine for color autocal. Just check the notes as you need to use the button to make the dark reading so it's a bit tricky with only two hands.

I do an autocal every 200 hours, so it's never too early to do one and practice. Once you're happy with the results, just do a quick check every 100-200 hours or so, and if it needs more than just setting 100% white to D65, redo an autocal. I have checked at 500 hours and it hasn't drifted at all since my last autocal at 300 hours, so after a while it settles a bit.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 04, 2019, 07:40:50 AM
I completely re-did my autocal
This looks very good, well done! Enjoy your calibrated PJ :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 04, 2019, 10:35:27 AM
16 should NEVER flash, whether you have your nose up to the screen or from your sitting position. Better crush 17 than raise black (16). You should use the i1pro off screen with the autocal to do your color calibration. I think it should be supported. Then you only need to use the Discus trained to the i1pro to verify with Calman. This should give you better results.
Ok, got it on the Brightness setting.

I didn't think the xRite i1Display Pro is supported by autocal - only the i1D2...isn't that right?
If it is supported, are you saying using it to do jvc autocal gamma & color calibrations off screen is the preferred way to run autocal rather than Spyder5Pro facing lens?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 04, 2019, 10:48:48 AM
Ok, got it on the Brightness setting.

I didn't think the xRite i1Display Pro is supported by autocal - only the i1D2...isn't that right?
If it is supported, are you saying using it to do jvc autocal gamma & color calibrations off screen is the preferred way to run autocal rather than Spyder5Pro facing lens?
Just tried running autocal with my i1DPro connected and it says can't find meter. So I'm presuming then it's not supported, hence my use of the Spyder5Pro off lens for gamma+color and then fine tuning with HCFR+i1DPro off screen.

Given that approach, should I or shouldn't I be using screen type adjust in the projector's menu?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 04, 2019, 10:57:57 AM
You were calling it an i1dpro which I misread for an i1pro :)

It is an i1display pro or i1d3 for short, not i1dpro...

Nothing to do with the i1pro, 1pro2 or EFI2000 which *are* supported by the autocal.

You only need to use the screen offset if you use the spyder to do a color autocal facing the lens. If you only use it to do a gamma autocal, you don't need the screen offset.

You might also want to try various screen offsets and see if one gives you better results.

Best is to get an i1pro/i1pro2.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 04, 2019, 12:04:19 PM
You were calling it an i1dpro which I misread for an i1pro :)

It is an i1display pro or i1d3 for short, not i1dpro...

Nothing to do with the i1pro, 1pro2 or EFI2000 which *are* supported by the autocal.

You only need to use the screen offset if you use the spyder to do a color autocal facing the lens. If you only use it to do a gamma autocal, you don't need the screen offset.

You might also want to try various screen offsets and see if one gives you better results.

Best is to get an i1pro/i1pro2.
Would an i1pro2 be considered more accurate than my i1D3?

So if I understand correctly, an i1pro2 would allow me to use autocal gamma+color with accuracy to a point that thereafter I shouldn't really need to adjust much with HCFR after the autocal?

Just trying to also eliminate some steps in my current calibration workflow as I usually end up spending quite a bit of time fiddling with the greyscale on all the modes with patterns up and HCFR after autocal is done using my Spyder5Pro.

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 04, 2019, 12:15:07 PM
No an i1pro2 isn’t necessarily more accurate than an i1d3, but it is supported by the Autocal.

You can’t use it it for gamma, only for color.

You use the Spyder for gamma.

But yes having both means that you don’t have to use another software.

Please look at the post “which meter to use”
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 04, 2019, 12:31:55 PM
No an i1pro2 isn’t necessarily more accurate than an i1d3, but it is supported by the Autocal.

You can’t use it it for gamma, only for color.

You use the Spyder for gamma.

But yes having both means that you don’t have to use another software.

Please look at the post “which meter to use”
Ok, so if I stick with my current approach of using Spyder5Pro (gamma only) and then using HCFR+i1displaypro to fine tune the greyscale, do I or do I not need to input my screen type?

Also, I understand as not doing color with Spyder5Pro and autocal, I should just leave the CMS alone?


Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 04, 2019, 12:58:12 PM
Never touch the CMS unless you know what you’re doing and are not targetting the gamut at 100%.

I don’t think you need to use the screen offset if you don’t do a color calibration with the spyder, but that’s not the way I use the software. It should be pretty obvious which is better (screen offset or no screen offset).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 05, 2019, 10:55:52 AM
So, I did a proper autocal gamma + color with iris @ 0 and then color only for -5, -10 with my Spyder5Pro.

I then started to fine tune greyscale with HCFR+i1D3 off screen.  I turned off screen adjustment.
Gamma @ 2.4 with Picture Tone +3.  Brightness -3; contrast +1

HCFR showed dE below 1 all the way to 60 IRE where it then climbs to over 8dE at 100 IRE due to blue being too low.

It still took me a green gain adjustment of -5 and a blue offset adjustment of +5 to get 70-100IRE down to below 4dE.
This is all in my custom SDR709 mode.

Does that sounds right? 

I'm outputting from madvr a power gamma of 2.4.

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 05, 2019, 11:12:23 AM
So, I did a proper autocal gamma + color with iris @ 0 and then color only for -5, -10 with my Spyder5Pro.

I then started to fine tune greyscale with HCFR+i1D3 off screen.  I turned off screen adjustment.
Gamma @ 2.4 with Picture Tone +3.  Brightness -3; contrast +1

HCFR showed dE below 1 all the way to 60 IRE where it then climbs to over 8dE at 100 IRE due to blue being too low.

It still took me a green gain adjustment of -5 and a blue offset adjustment of +5 to get 70-100IRE down to below 4dE.
This is all in my custom SDR709 mode.

Does that sounds right?

I'm outputting from madvr a power gamma of 2.4.
If you did use the Spyder for color, you need to select the correct screen offset.

Please post, as requested, logs of the Autocal so we can see what the autocal thinks it's done, a verif with Calman before any changes so we can see the difference, and then a verification with Calman after your adjustments.

I suggest you use a target of 2.2 before your final adjustments so it's easier to see if the gamma autocal is correct or not.

Whether you use madVR or not is irrelevant. The autocal should deliver with 5dE of your target after fine-tuning the RGB balance. You can always get things closer if you use the 12-band gamma controls in the Autocal (using HCFR and the i1d3), but that takes more time. I use a madVR 3D LUT to do this automatically in 10mn (a Lightning LUT in Calman, which works fine if the Autocal gets things close enough).

Then if you tell madVR which target (gamut, gamma) you have actually reached on the PJ, the results should be accurate.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 05, 2019, 11:30:43 AM
If you did use the Spyder for color, you need to select the correct screen offset.

Please post, as requested, logs of the Autocal so we can see what the autocal thinks it's done, a verif with Calman before any changes so we can see the difference, and then a verification with Calman after your adjustments.

I suggest you use a target of 2.2 before your final adjustments so it's easier to see if the gamma autocal is correct or not.

Whether you use madVR or not is irrelevant. The autocal should deliver with 5dE of your target after fine-tuning the RGB balance. You can always get things closer if you use the 12-band gamma controls in the Autocal (using HCFR and the i1d3), but that takes more time. I use a madVR 3D LUT to do this automatically in 10mn (a Lightning LUT in Calman, which works fine if the Autocal gets things close enough).

Then if you tell madVR which target (gamut, gamma) you have actually reached on the PJ, the results should be ac
When you say log of the autocal, do you mean the cbd files it generates upon completion?
Also, I don't own Calman.  Only HCFR and also DisplayCAL (which I use for 3DLUT later on - is this CALman?)

Anyways, also worth noting that in Natural mode, using the same 6500 setting and offset/gain adjustments I made for my custom SDR709 mode, I get a pretty good tracking on greyscale through out with dE under 1 actually.
So what could be causing the difference between Natural and custom SDR709 modes if all settings are basically the same between them?

Finally, on another note:  I get 15.5ftL at iris -10 and it jumps to 20.5ftL at iris -9  is that normal?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 05, 2019, 11:47:00 AM
No, I mean screenshots of the logs that the autocal provides after calibration (see the basic guide, I post many of them). You can select gamut, gamma and RGB balance. That's what we need to see (ideally with a target of 2.2) to see if the results are good (according to the Spyder).

Sorry I thought you had Calman. HCFR for post-cal measurements and DisplayCAL for 3D LUT generation are fine.

Jumping from 15.5 to 20.5 looks like a lot for just one click, but I guess it's possible. There are some steps that are much bigger than others in the range. Make sure that both are calibrated to D65 though, because if you need large adjustments, that might be the reason (one is calibrated, the other isn't).

If you want to compare natural and custom, you have to autocal them both, unless they both use exactly the same settings (gamut, gamma, color temp, filter, iris, filter, lamp mode). Any of these can cause differences.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 06, 2019, 11:37:30 AM
If I run an autocal with BT2020 (filter on), does it mean using a mode with the DCI-P3 filter would also be autocal'd since it is also a filter? 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 06, 2019, 01:59:35 PM
If I run an autocal with BT2020 (filter on), does it mean using a mode with the DCI-P3 filter would also be autocal'd since it is also a filter?
For gamma, yes, but not for color as it's not the same gamut.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 06, 2019, 07:08:23 PM
Just to confirm, should I be setting as follows?

GPU - RGB/Full
madvr - 16-235
JVC proj - 16-235
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 06, 2019, 11:31:09 PM
Just to confirm, should I be setting as follows?

GPU - RGB/Full
madvr - 16-235
JVC proj - 16-235
It depends on the GPU, the driver, the OS, the bit depth, but theoretically, that's one of the options, the other being FULL/FULLL/FULL (when it works). This is why I don't answer madVR questions here. It would immediately derail the thread, there is never a simple answer to a madVR question :)
I see that some of your questions are not answered in the madvr thread you posted in. This is because that thread is reserved to only tonemapping testing feedback. It's not a support thread for madVR. Here is how it works:
This thread: JVC autocal and calibration. No madVR generic support question, like the one you just asked.
The madVR thread where you posted in and didn't get any answer: only feedback for madshi re the current test build and the specific features he is asking to test, or suggestions on how to improve it.
Anything else madVR related, please ask in a madVR support thread, either on Doom9 or elsewhere, including in the forum where you posted (there is a madVR support thread there).
Thanks :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 07, 2019, 11:41:28 AM
This is highly unusual.

First, the brightness control should allow you to get the blackest black. On these units, it needs to be set to -2 or -3 most of the time, but there is unit to unit variation.

If you can get a blacker level with hide, something is wrong. Are you sure that your levels are set correctly? Try to force HDMI to standard or enhanced, or set it to AUTO and see if it makes a difference.

If the PJ is set to the correct levels for the source with the correct brightness setting, what you describe shouldn't happen.

Second, the JVC Autocal should be able to correct almost any gamma droop, but gamma doesn't (or shouldn't) affect contrast, as gamma only adjusts between black and white. It doesn't touch black or white, so shouldn't really have much of an impact on contrast.

Brightness will control black and contrast white.

If you use offsets wrongly (for example, by adding instead of substracting values), you can raise your black levels.

If you set gains wrongly you can also lower your contrast.

But a gamma autocal, while it will restore picture depth especially in the high end, because that's where the droop happens (levels at 70-95 are too high, gamma is too low, and the picture lacks depth), it should not change on/off contrast.

So my advice is:

1) Switch the DI off. It's irrelevant for now.
2) Check your levels with a  black levels pattern. 16 and below should be black (not grey). 17 just above black, unless that raise the black levels at 16, in which case crush it. My recommendation is to set the source to standard (GPU full and madVR 16-235 if you use madVR) and the PJ to standard, but ideally test with a non HTPC source because levels can be wrong on a HTPC depending on the OS and GPU driver, so let's rule this out for now.
3) Adjust brightness so that using hide doesn't make any difference. For most, with the correct levels, it has to be set to -2 or -3.
4) You should get a native on off at the same level as what you measure with "hide", 47,000:1 native with the iris on -7 sounds a bit high but if you are at long throw, much closer to what it should be than 4000:1, which cannot be correct.
5) Once you get a basic working baseline, run a gamma autocal to get rid of the gamma droop. You should get a picture with more depth, but it shouldn't improve your on/off significantly.

Please let us know once you've checked your levels and set brightness correctly if you still have this issue.

You might have to use a difference source, reset the PJ settings to factory default or take the Radiance out until you get a proper baseline, then once you've identified the culprit, work out the reason.

There is no point in running an autocal if you have 4,000:1 native contrast with your current settings. That won't change with an autocal, so there is an incorrect setting somewhere.
Just checked my new RS2000 for this issue and I have it as well. Correct levels are set, lowering the brightness setting doesn't fix it. Here are the contrast numbers I just measured at the lens with my Minolta CL200. To be sure it wasn't my calibration raising the level of black, I put the projector back to it's default out of the box settings. I measured these contrast numbers in high lamp mode, lens at minimum zoom and the iris closed at -15.

Normal video test patterns - 67,000:1 calibrated contrast.

Using the Hide button for black level reading: 89,750:1 calibrated contrast

Uncalibrated OOTB with Hide Button: 100,500:1 contrast

It seems like I'm getting a raised black floor for some reason. I wonder if this is firmware related? Also, for context, my unit was manufactured in June this year.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 07, 2019, 03:12:20 PM
Is restoring the init file to the projector to go back to factory defaults as simple as just importing the init file using JVC autocal?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 07, 2019, 09:42:24 PM
I get 74 nits in low lamp with the filter (BT2020) & 91 nits without the filter (HDR).  My bulb has 100 hrs on it.

I'd like to continue running in low lamp.

Is BT2020 considered worth it for the drop in brightness in this setup?


Also, linked to this question, I too wanted to create a DCI-P3 mode but I only get 72 nits with the DCI filter.  Should I continue pursuing creating this mode and the DCI-P3 3DLUT along with it over just running it without filter?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 08, 2019, 01:45:26 PM
About entering a screen type code, I did a full autocal and then put up a 100% pattern and lost brightness when employing the screen adjustment that matched my screen type, so I kept it off.

This was after doing a color calibration with a Spyder5Pro.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on October 08, 2019, 07:45:43 PM
New NX firmware 3.10 is out.

https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000/dl.html (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000/dl.html)

Also, Autocal 12 with SpyderX support.

https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000_calibrationsoft.html (https://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-nx9_dla-nx7_dla-nx5_dla-n7_dla-n5_dla-n11_dla-n8_dla-n6_dla-rs3000_dla-rs2000_dla-rs1000_calibrationsoft.html)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: riddle on October 08, 2019, 11:31:45 PM
Now how this new version of Autoval will works with Frame Adapt HDR calibration? Does eny one check it?

Thank you
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on October 09, 2019, 06:59:03 AM
Now how this new version of Autoval will works with Frame Adapt HDR calibration? Does eny one check it?

Thank you

Well it says right in the manual:

"Calibration does not work when Picture Mode has been set to Frame Adapt HDR. Set to another Picture Mode."
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Killroy™ on October 09, 2019, 07:42:00 AM
Well it says right in the manual:

"Calibration does not work when Picture Mode has been set to Frame Adapt HDR. Set to another Picture Mode."
WTF?!?!

Am I reading that correctly? Can't use the calibrations when using Frame Adapt DTM? That can't be right. Or does that mean you need to calibrate first and then switch to Frame Adapt?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: RamsX on October 09, 2019, 08:15:26 AM
WTF?!?!

Am I reading that correctly? Can't use the calibrations when using Frame Adapt DTM? That can't be right. Or does that mean you need to calibrate first and then switch to Frame Adapt?
I believe you can't RUN calibration when in Frame Adapt DTM, but I haven't checked so I don't know.
Waiting for my SpyderX.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on October 09, 2019, 08:19:22 AM
Correct, it's clear you cannot run autocal with the projector in Frame Adapt HDR mode.

But someone will have to test to see what happens to the calibration in general that was performed in another mode, when measured with the projector in Frame Adapt HDR mode to see that everything carries over.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Killroy™ on October 09, 2019, 08:22:54 AM
I'll test the Spyder X and 1IPro2 with the new software later tonight if I can get a few minutes.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: riddle on October 09, 2019, 08:45:28 AM
What GAMA than Frame Adapt DTM will use? If i will calibrate gama 2.2 will this have some efect on Frame Adapt DTM? Realy dont know...
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: grendelrt on October 09, 2019, 11:06:53 AM
Is there no way to have two different Rec2020 color profiles to use the color filter? I have my Rec2020 setup for MadVR and I was going to try the new DTM settings which I assume uses the default Rec2020 with filter when you set it to wide color space , but there doesn't seem to be a way to make a custom color profile that has the filter engaged to keep separate for other profiles?

EDIT: Solved, Had to make a custom color profile in Autocal :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 10, 2019, 12:16:43 PM
Is there no way to have two different Rec2020 color profiles to use the color filter? I have my Rec2020 setup for MadVR and I was going to try the new DTM settings which I assume uses the default Rec2020 with filter when you set it to wide color space , but there doesn't seem to be a way to make a custom color profile that has the filter engaged to keep separate for other profiles?

EDIT: Solved, Had to make a custom color profile in Autocal :)
Yes, and if you make a custom color profile for madVR, I would highly recommed to use DCI-P3 rather than BT2020, that doesn't give you anything with our models (unless yours does reach beyond DCI-P3, which few do).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on October 10, 2019, 12:29:25 PM
When you make a custom color profile via autocal, does it automatically become calibrated as long as it matches the same modes that have already been calibrated?

What I mean is that I notice when you autocal rec709 for instance, autocal adjusts the primary color points to line up with the reference gamut pretty well.

Does that mean if I make another custom color profile for rec709 will it retroactively get the calibrated gamut points that the projector already has from the earlier autocal?

Does the new rec709 based custom color profile acquire the calibrated gamut primaries, or does it start out with stock color points and needs to be calibrated after it's created?

I hope that question makes sense.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 10, 2019, 02:04:37 PM
Yes, and if you make a custom color profile for madVR, I would highly recommed to use DCI-P3 rather than BT2020, that doesn't give you anything with our models (unless yours does reach beyond DCI-P3, which few do).

So I have 72 nits available for DCI-P3 filter.  Would you still recommend I create a 3DLUT for DCI-P3 or just do one for BT.709?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 10, 2019, 10:02:41 PM
So I have 72 nits available for DCI-P3 filter.  Would you still recommend I create a 3DLUT for DCI-P3 or just do one for BT.709?
It depends if you're in low lamp or high lamp. If you're in high lamp, you don't lose much with the filter (around 10%) so I would definitely use it, especially as you use madVR which gets the best out of every nit.

If this is in low lamp, you might find that no filter gives you a bit more brightness, which might translate into more saturation. But you still want to target DCI-P3, even if without a 3D LUT, rather than Rec-709. Unless a DCI-P3 LUt gives you too much posterization and you can't get results good enough after the autocal without a 3D LUT, there is no reason to target rec-709, as you can still get 90% of P3 without the filter. That's more than rec-709, so why waste that portion of the wider gamut just because you prefer not to use the filter?

With the progress in dynamic tonmemapping, I'd use the filter, get the wider gamut and the better contrast, but that's subjective. Try both and decide which one you prefer.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 11, 2019, 09:42:52 AM
It depends if you're in low lamp or high lamp. If you're in high lamp, you don't lose much with the filter (around 10%) so I would definitely use it, especially as you use madVR which gets the best out of every nit.

If this is in low lamp, you might find that no filter gives you a bit more brightness, which might translate into more saturation. But you still want to target DCI-P3, even if without a 3D LUT, rather than Rec-709. Unless a DCI-P3 LUt gives you too much posterization and you can't get results good enough after the autocal without a 3D LUT, there is no reason to target rec-709, as you can still get 90% of P3 without the filter. That's more than rec-709, so why waste that portion of the wider gamut just because you prefer not to use the filter?

With the progress in dynamic tonmemapping, I'd use the filter, get the wider gamut and the better contrast, but that's subjective. Try both and decide which one you prefer.
This is in low lamp that I get 72 nits with DCI-P3.  I'd prefer to not run in high lamp due mainly to fan noise but also lamp wear.  This is because in low lamp I can get 91 nits with no filter (HDR color profile).
Also worth mentioning, I get 74 nits with BT2020.

So, given that, are you saying I should still use BT2020 color mode (74 nits) with a 3DLUT targeting DCI-P3 rather than Rec-709?
Sorry, little confused in how your recommendation translates into specifically what I need to do in the JVC menu + DisplayCAL 3DLUT creation menu.

You also say even without a 3DLUT I should target a DCI-P3 - where in the menus do I specifically accomplish that?  Is that on the madvr calibration screen where it says "my display is calibrated to..."?

Also, as an aside, I ran a whole 65x65 3DLUT in DisplayCAL overnight, and once completed I couldn't actually find the .3dlut file it should have created.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 11, 2019, 02:16:10 PM
There is no point in using a BT2020 baseline if you target DCI-P3 with madVR. Use the DCI-P3 profile, and run a 3D LUT  targeting DCI-P3 from that baseline. A BT2020 profile will only cause posterization in your case.

To target DCI-P3, simply select any user mode and select the DCI-P3 color profile. It will use the filter.

Or if you use the new DTM mode, select the mode with the filter. I haven't installed/tested this yet, I was abroad all week.

Please ask your questions about DisplayCAL in a DisplayCAL forum, this is the Autocal thread :)
Title: Report on Autocal V12 and Spyder X
Post by: Manni on October 12, 2019, 03:46:25 PM
I've done some tests with Autocal V12 and the Spyder X (Pro, there is no benefit buying the Elite unless you want to use the Datacolor software, which wouldn't make sense with these projectors). I followed the JVC instructions and positioned it facing the screen, about 30-40cm away (12-15"), angled up so that it would read the centre of the screen without reading its shadow. Here are my observations:

1) The Spyder X is about twice as fast as the Spyder 5, as expected. I went from around 10mn for a 33-point gamma+color autocal to less than 5 min.

2) I had no problems reading the lowest gamma steps, even in SDR with the iris set to -12 (65nits). I would advise anyone have issues to follow the usual advice, which is to do gamma with the iris fully open, then color at the relevant iris settings. If you can't read the lowest steps (i.e. values at zero for some colors during measurements), then zoom the picture down for gamma calibration. In my case, the results were just as good as with the Spyder 5 Pro / V11, but it took half the time for all calibrations. I checked 6 steps near black and the results were identical to the Spyder 5's.

3) The bad news is that my specific unit was not usable for color. Not only would it cause a loss of brightness (from 115 nits to 105nits) as it was overcorrecting the color temp unnecessarily, but the greyscale / RGB balance was completely wrong when checked with my Discus trained to my i1pro2, especially in the upper half, up to 8dEs at 100% white. The issue was the same with rec-709 (no filter) and DCI-P3 (filter). Of course the Spyder X thinks it has nailed it. A color only pass with the i1pro2 recovered all the brightness and nailed the RGB balance. The Gamma curve was near perfect, so the benefit of the Spyder gamma autocal was intact. I just won't use it for color.

4) I am suspicious that it might not be the Spyder's fault but a bug in the autocal, as I don't see why the unit would be accurate at lower IREs and would progressively become less accurate. I have seen other reports with a similar pattern, so hopefully it's the software and not the meter.

5) I'll confirm this when the Spyder X is supported by Calman. I was told today that it wouldn't take long, and I'd rather wait than waste time with Lightspace.

Overall, I recommend the Spyder X (Pro, no need for the Elite) if you want a faster meter to do your gamma calibrations. I did four of them in 20 minutes instead of 40 minutes, that's a significant difference. As I only use the Spyder for gamma, I'm very happy with the speed improvement and the fact that it can be used facing the screen, so it's a keeper.

However, if you were hoping for more accuracy and to be able to use it for color, it's either still a lottery (8dE at 100% white, far worse than without using it) or there is a bug in the software. 

The good news is that if you use the Spyder X for gamma and the i1pro2 for color, you get a near perfect calibration that barely needs a 3D LUT.

I quickly tried the DTM, it's a clear improvement compared to the previous static tonemapping, but it still needs some adjustments per title. It's also far from being as good as madVR, especially with the significant improvements brought by the most recent test builds, so I won't spend much time testing this at the moment.

Unfortunately, the yelllowing and blooming of the highlights in HDR (iris fully open) was still there, even without madVR, using the JVC DTM, and the double chroma upscaling issue is still present.

So I kept my usual settings: -12, low lamp DI on for SDR (65nits), and iris open, low lamp, DI off for HDR (115nits).

Both provide a stunning picture. Hopefully at some point JVC will resolve the yellowing and blooming, in the meantime the black level and contrast in low lamp is still excellent, even with the DI disabled. I watched the UHD bluray of Avengers Endgame to test my calibration and the picture was spectacular.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V11 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Killroy™ on October 12, 2019, 03:59:09 PM
Completely agree. Times were impressive. I really thought that there was something wrong it went so fast compared to the Spyder5.

After gamma and a color calibration with the i1Pro2 (EFI2k) I am more than very happy with the results. As of now, I am forgoing the 3DLUTs as I am quite pleased with this incredible easy and fast Autocal system. Great job JVC.

As far as the DTM, yes, MadVR is still king. But since you can't use it (MadVR) for Netflix or Amazon Prime or any other streaming it will do just fine for now. Heck I would say it is about 80-90% of the way there for streaming stuff. Now I just have to decide if I want to use my Shield for streaming or my HTPC. But that's a whole different thread.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 13, 2019, 03:42:21 AM
Hi Manny,

thanks for your post, very good even though not encouraging because of bad results with SpyderX calibrating the color. Hope it is a software issue.

However I would like to understand one thing that both the manual and people that are using the JVC Autocal always mention:
Is that true also when using a different color space and gamma curve? For example, if I calibrate a color profile based on BT.709 gamut + 2.2 gamma, did I get also profiles using BT.2020 gamut + HDR gamma correctly calibrated as long as aperture, lamp power and filter are exactly the same? The manual does not state it clearly.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 13, 2019, 04:24:46 AM
Yes, the above is correct. If you don’t change filter, lamp mode or iris setting, the calibration remains valid even if you change the gamut, gamma or color temp (provided both gamma and color autocal were done with these lamp, iris and filter settings.)

If you select “apply to all” for gamma, then a single gamma calibration applies to all settings, irrespective of iris, lamp or filter.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Amon on October 13, 2019, 04:31:51 AM
Posting my findings and questions here for the new firmware v3.1. These observations are from a friend's JVC N7 that I previously calibrated on previous firmware with Spyder 5 for gamma and iPro2 for color. I have not used the new autocal yet. Its a HTPC madVR on 126" 16:9 setup.
1) Appears there is no method of selecting a color profile in the new Frame Adapt DTM picture mode. In other words, the auto color calibration may not have an effect on Frame Adapt DTM picture mode. My same color temperature (RGB gain/ offset) custom setting was off compared to my old High Lamp HDR auto cal picture mode at Iris 0 setting, so I don't believe it carries over any color calibration data. Using same Iris 0 setting for the new Picture mode, so it should be carrying over if its supported? In the instructions for the new calibration software, it states 'Calibration does not work when Picture Mode has been set to Frame Adapt HDR. Set to another Picture Mode.'  Manni, can you confirm?
2) Does gamma calibration carry over to the new Frame Adapt Picture mode?
3) Experienced an issue with black crush on the new firmware with the new Frame Adapt Picture mode. I had to set Brightness to 16 to resolve all detail to code 64, confirmed with Masciola's Black Clipping patterns. This is not a problem on the SDR Auto Calibration picture mode after firmware upgrade, only the new Frame Adapt Picture mode. I didn't check my old HDR Auto Cal mode after firmware upgrade for black crush, will reply later.
4) May have discovered a bug. Brightness was auto set to -50 on my SDR Auto Cal Picture mode after the update and after playing around with the Color Temperature in the Frame Adapt HDR Picture mode. I had to set back to 0 to resolve all detail down to 16.
5) HDR Level set to High clipped too many details in the high contrast areas, and saturation was off. Clipping of details in highlight areas was seen in 2001 rotating ships in space. Passengers movie is a good saturation test because the skin tones are already oversaturated. Also BR2049 Vegas scene appears overly yellow compared to other picture modes. It would be great for have others to validate these scenes on their setup. Settled on HDR Level = Medium, Iris = 0, High Lamp, Auto 2 Aperture.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 13, 2019, 05:03:28 AM
Re the questions above:

1) You can't run an autocal of the Frame Adapt DTM picture mode, but if you calibrate any mode using the same gamut (not sure if they use DCI-P3 or BT2020, but it might be DCI-P3 which would explain why your previous calibration didn't translate as you most likely used BT2020) and iris, lamp and filter mode. I would try to calibrate a user mode with DCI-P3, iris open, filter and lamp set as in the DTM color profile, and it should automatically calibrate DTM.

2) Gamma calibration should carry if you use the same filter and lamp mode.

3 and 4 sound like you have the wrong levels set in your source or in the PJ. There is no way you'd need that much adjustment on brightness, so I would correct this first.

5) Switch the DI off in HDR (especially with the iris fully open) if you want to keep highlights or if you want to avoid yellowing issues, unless you have an rs3000. The DI blooms highlights and this is visible in any title where you have bright objects against a dark background, so there are many scenes in 2001 where this is visible. If you still have the issue with the DI off, then try to see if selecting low in the DTM option helps. There is no blooming of highlights here (RS2000) with the DI switched off.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 13, 2019, 06:05:08 AM
Re the questions above:

1) You can't run an autocal of the Frame Adapt DTM picture mode, but if you calibrate any mode using the same gamut (not sure if they use DCI-P3 or BT2020, but it might be DCI-P3 which would explain why your previous calibration didn't translate as you most likely used BT2020) and iris, lamp and filter mode. I would try to calibrate a user mode with DCI-P3, iris open, filter and lamp set as in the DTM color profile, and it should automatically calibrate DTM.
Wait, you just told me that gamut is not relevant. ;)
I would also say I’m pretty sure that DTM is using BT.2020 when filter is set to wide, not DCI. Because DCI requires that you have a source able to generate a DCI signal, not available on common sources like BD players or TV Boxes.
When filter is set to normal and in case of N5/RS1000 I assume it uses HDR instead.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 13, 2019, 06:22:50 AM
Wait, you just told me that gamut is not relevant. ;)
I would also say I’m pretty sure that DTM is using BT.2020 when filter is set to wide, not DCI. Because DCI requires that you have a source able to generate a DCI signal, not available on common sources like BD players or TV Boxes.
When filter is set to normal and in case of N5/RS1000 I assume it uses HDR instead.
Gamut is not relevant for gamma, it is relevant for color.
You need BT2020 when the source sends HDR and you display HDR, because no consumer source will send P3.
But if you tonemap HDR content sent by the source to SDR with a VP (or, in this case, the PJ), you can tonemap to any gamut you want: BT2020, P3 or rec-709. This is what madVR does, what the Radiance Pro does, and possibly what the DTM does. I haven't tested it, but it's not impossible that the DTM tonemaps the the native gamut of the PJ, which is P3, not BT2020.
You were talking about an N7. If an N5, it will not use the filter, but it could still tonemap to anything it wants, rec-709, P3 or BT2020. P3 would still make a lot more sense, because even without the filter these PJs cover more than rec-709.
HDR (whether HDR10 or HDR) means PQ gamma. This doesn't apply to DTM, which tonemaps to SDR, most probably to 2.2 or 2.4.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Amon on October 13, 2019, 06:27:32 AM
Re the questions above:

1) You can't run an autocal of the Frame Adapt DTM picture mode, but if you calibrate any mode using the same gamut (not sure if they use DCI-P3 or BT2020, but it might be DCI-P3 which would explain why your previous calibration didn't translate as you most likely used BT2020) and iris, lamp and filter mode. I would try to calibrate a user mode with DCI-P3, iris open, filter and lamp set as in the DTM color profile, and it should automatically calibrate DTM.
It would be nice to get official confirmation that calibration settings carry over. The documentation is not 100% clear: 'Calibration does not work in Frame Adapt HDR mode. Set to another Picture Mode and calibrate using the same Aperture, Lamp Power and Filter settings.' I assume you are reading this as it does carry over but user can't select the new picture mode in the software, but I still want explicit confirmation. It appears we are doing black box guesswork here based on one line in the documentation, no offense. I used 2020 on the original calibration. Why would selecting a different color space affect color calibration for the same iris open, filter on, high lamp? Won't it overwrite the old calibration for high lamp, open iris, filter on? 2020 contains P3, why would this change anything? Are you thinking P3 calibration more accurately reflects the projector's capabilities(is P3 the native gamut?) without relying on transformation math, so it may be a better fit for this new mode? I'm not following your logic here. I don't know how to pass the P3 inside the 2020 container in madVR MPC-BE, so if you have any links handy that would help. I'm not doing any tone mapping in MadVR, HDR is passed through.

Quote
3 and 4 sound like you have the wrong levels set in your source or in the PJ. There is no way you'd need that much adjustment on brightness, so I would correct this first.
It doesn't make sense that the new mode requires a brightness change to +16 and the old HDR mode with same iris open, filter on, high lamp would be set to zero. I will confirm that the old mode doesn't clip with brightness=0. If the input is the same, how can the output be different?
Regarding SDR calibration having brightness set to -50, that was definitely not a manual change. It was originally set to 0 before the update and before my color temp adjustment. There's probably a bug here.
Quote
5) Switch the DI off in HDR (especially with the iris fully open) if you want to keep highlights or if you want to avoid yellowing issues, unless you have an rs3000. The DI blooms highlights and this is visible in any title where you have bright objects against a dark background, so there are many scenes in 2001 where this is visible. If you still have the issue with the DI off, then try to see if selecting low in the DTM option helps. There is no blooming of highlights here (RS2000) with the DI switched off.
Will switch off the DI and test, but don't remember seeing this in the old HDR mode with Auto 2, open iris, at least not to the same effect. The clipping in highlights is very noticeable when HDR Level = High. I will do a comparison with old HDR autocal Auto 2 vs Frame Adapt HDR Auto 2 vs Frame Adapt HDR DI Off



Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 13, 2019, 07:00:47 AM
What the documentation says makes sense, so we're not guessing, we're assuming that until proven wrong the documentation is correct. I don't see any reason why the DTM profile would be isolated from the rest of the PJ, that wouldn't make any sense at all.

You used BT2020 in the original calibration because the PJ was tonemapping using a static PQ curve.

As explained in my former post, it's very possible that the DTM tonemaps to P3.

To get the correct saturations, you need to select the factory color profile that you want to calibrate. If BT2020 was selected in your previous calibration, it might not translate to the DTM.

I'm only suggesting you try this to see if it makes a difference. There has always been a degree of reverse engineering in working out how the Autocal works. I don't have the time at the moment to do detailed tests for the DTM because I use madVR to watch all my content. So you can either try it and see if it makes a difference, or wait until someone else's does.

Of course the user can select a different pictude mode in the software. You simply double click on it and select the one you want. Ideally select one with the same gamut (so P3 or BT2020, we're not sure yet), same lamp, same filter and same iris setting. That should do it.

I don't know what JVC is tonemapping to, but it would certainly make more sense to tonemap to P3 than to BT2020, given the the PJ can't reach wider than P3.

In any case that's none of the user's business. Irrespective of the source, if you want to use the JVC DTM, you have to send HDR in a BT2020 container using PQ from the source, otherwise the PJ will not be able to tonemap it properly.

Consumer content (UHD Bluray, HDR streaming) is always mastered to BT2020 as a container. Some VPs (and possibly this PJ with DTM) can discard the container and tonemap to P3. It's only relevant in case selecting P3 instead of BT2020 in the user mode that you autocal allows you to get better results with DTM. It might or it might not. The iris, filter and lamp mode is certainly more relevant.

Please ask any madVR related question in a madVR support thread. I would suggest you try to get this to work with a standard source, before making sure that you are using the correct settings in madVR, which is off topic here.

Regarding levels, I was suggesting this because I don't experience this at all. I didn't have to change my brightness or contrast settings, either in SDR or HDR. I'm using -2 for both, and that's the correct setting here to get darkest black floor and optimal on/off native contrast. My sources are set to send 16-235, and the PJ is set to HDMI standard. Again, try with a standard source first. There are lots of issues with GPU drivers, OS changes that cause wrong levels depending on the GPU driver, video decoder, renderer, bit depth, etc. This thread isn't a HTPC / madVR debug thread.

Re clipping of the highlights, it varies a bit depending on the source and mostly the manual iris setting, but it's there as long as the DI is switched on if the manual iris is fully open (then it diminishes as you close the iris). Not everyone notices them, but they are there (and have been on previous models as well, except on the rs3000 apparently). So switch the DI off before trying to see if the highlights are crushed, because it's unlikely it's an autocal or a DTM issue, and it's most likely simply the "normal" behaviour of the DI.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 13, 2019, 08:51:07 AM
Gamut is not relevant for gamma, it is relevant for color.
You need BT2020 when the source sends HDR and you display HDR, because no consumer source will send P3.
But if you tonemap HDR content sent by the source to SDR with a VP (or, in this case, the PJ), you can tonemap to any gamut you want: BT2020, P3 or rec-709. This is what madVR does, what the Radiance Pro does, and possibly what the DTM does. I haven't tested it, but it's not impossible that the DTM tonemaps the the native gamut of the PJ, which is P3, not BT2020.
You were talking about an N7. If an N5, it will not use the filter, but it could still tonemap to anything it wants, rec-709, P3 or BT2020. P3 would still make a lot more sense, because even without the filter these PJs cover more than rec-709.
HDR (whether HDR10 or HDR) means PQ gamma. This doesn't apply to DTM, which tonemaps to SDR, most probably to 2.2 or 2.4.
You said above:
"If you don’t change filter, lamp mode or iris setting, the calibration remains valid even if you change the gamut, gamma or color temp"
If we state that filter, lamp mode and iris are the only discriminators, then we must accept that the gamut can't be relevant. If the gamut was important, when we change color profile with a custom one to correct the inaccuracy of the Spyder 5, then the correction would not work as we would have a new uncalibrated mode.
However, regarding the DTM, I think you are interpreting the color space used as the target after the tone mapping, while I think from a calibration perspective we should consider more the input color space on which the tone mapping works. It is like you are trying to identify an "intermediate" step of the process: input signal -> tone mapping -> internal model. We don't know how exactly is working and we don't need to know it, but for sure we need to feed it with a BT.2020 signal, this is what I meant in my post when I said "I’m pretty sure that DTM is using BT.2020 when filter is set to wide, not DCI"
However, I still believe that the gamut that is used is not important. As Amon reported the manual says:
'Calibration does not work in Frame Adapt HDR mode. Set to another Picture Mode and calibrate using the same Aperture, Lamp Power and Filter settings.'
No mention of color profile...
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 13, 2019, 09:10:08 AM
You said above:
"If you don’t change filter, lamp mode or iris setting, the calibration remains valid even if you change the gamut, gamma or color temp"
If we state that filter, lamp mode and iris are the only discriminators, then we must accept that the gamut can't be relevant. If the gamut was important, when we change color profile with a custom one to correct the inaccuracy of the Spyder 5, then the correction would not work as we would have a new uncalibrated mode.
However, regarding the DTM, I think you are interpreting the color space used as the target after the tone mapping, while I think from a calibration perspective we should consider more the input color space on which the tone mapping works. It is like you are trying to identify an "intermediate" step of the process: input signal -> tone mapping -> internal model. We don't know how exactly is working and we don't need to know it, but for sure we need to feed it with a BT.2020 signal, this is what I meant in my post when I said "I’m pretty sure that DTM is using BT.2020 when filter is set to wide, not DCI"
However, I still believe that the gamut that is used is not important. As Amon reported the manual says:
'Calibration does not work in Frame Adapt HDR mode. Set to another Picture Mode and calibrate using the same Aperture, Lamp Power and Filter settings.'
No mention of color profile...
The input color space is irrelevant for calibration, it's only relevant for the DTM algo, and it should definitely be BT2020 for consumer HDR content. The only gamut that matters when tonemapping re calibration is the output gamut, i.e. the DTM algo target. 

Anyway, I really have no time to argue about theory. I made a suggestion to help solving a problem, people are free to try it or dismiss it. :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: estabanj on October 15, 2019, 09:21:32 AM
How many hours should I wait to do an AutoCal? 10hrs, 20hrs.....

I know the Lamp/PJ doesn't stabilize until ~100hrs and that is the time to wait until you get a professional calibration.

In my case, the PJ is being replaced (blue vertical bars -- yes its still a thing) so will have a brand new PJ.

I saw substantial improvement when I did Autocal in my current NX7 so I am wondering is there a reason to wait before doing an AutoCal with a new PJ, assuming I understand that I will need to do it multiple times before 100hrs.

I am thinking about 10-20 hrs, watch a few movies to make sure that I a good unit (HW infant mortality)

Thoughts?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 15, 2019, 09:43:59 AM
The 100 hours is to make sure in theory 1) that the bulb stabilizes and 2) that the bulb or PJ isn't a dud. That makes sense if you're hiring a calibrator.

In practice, the bulb keeps changing in the first 300 hours, and then the PJ keeps changing (gamma droop) over the life of the PJ.

So if you're doing it yourself, I would do it right away, maybe wait 10 hours to make sure that the lamp or PJ isn't a dud, but after that it's every 100-500 hours anyway depending on your level of OCD.

I usually check my calibration every 200 hours or so, and only recalibrate if necessary.

These PJs drift anyway, so unless you warm up the PJ/Lamp for at least 45 minutes before calibration and critical watching and your room is temperature controlled (i.e. the room temp doesn't go up as the PJ warms the room), your calibration won't be accurate over a whole film.

Both gamut and RGB balance change significantly as the PJ/room warms up. If it stops warming up at some point, then you can have a repeatable calibration, otherwise I wouldn't be too OCD about this...
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: estabanj on October 15, 2019, 11:03:42 AM
Thanks Manni,

That is what I will do.

BTW if I understand your previous DTM posts correctly its probably worth doing three Picture modes while I have all the equipment out. With User 3 being done in case the DTM algo is actually tone mapping to P3

User1 - SDR709 - Color Profile 709, 6500K, 2.4, low lamp, iris -6 (~60 nits)
User2 - HDR2020 - Color Profile BT2020, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0
User3 - HDR-P3 - Color Profile DCI, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0

Am I understanding your post correctly?


Thanks again
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: grendelrt on October 15, 2019, 01:58:40 PM
So I read a bunch of people say their black level changed with the new firmware and instead of running -2 or -3 on the brightness they are back to 0. I just checked mine and it looks like I am in the same boat. If I ran autocal last week on gamma with brightness set to -2 do I need to re run autocal at brightness 0. I thought I had seen that answered before but couldn't find the post :O Also just a heads up for people that my brightness did change with the firmware update as some other users had reported (in SDR and HDR modes). 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 15, 2019, 02:37:19 PM
I was the first to highlight this on AVS forum :)
Happy you reported the same perception.
Theoretically calibration should be agnostic of level of brightness, but I leave the floor to Manni.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 15, 2019, 02:43:54 PM
Thanks Manni,

That is what I will do.

BTW if I understand your previous DTM posts correctly its probably worth doing three Picture modes while I have all the equipment out. With User 3 being done in case the DTM algo is actually tone mapping to P3

User1 - SDR709 - Color Profile 709, 6500K, 2.4, low lamp, iris -6 (~60 nits)
User2 - HDR2020 - Color Profile BT2020, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0
User3 - HDR-P3 - Color Profile DCI, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0

Am I understanding your post correctly?


Thanks again
I keep on thinking that 3rd is not needed and furthermore is going to overwrite the second calibration!
The manual is very clear: the color calibration applies to all profiles with same combination of lamp, Iris and filter. For the gamma just lamp and filter are relevant. In your case, you need to perform gamma calibration twice as well. So color+gamma for 1 and 2. The color space is not considered.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 15, 2019, 05:18:53 PM
Thanks Manni,

That is what I will do.

BTW if I understand your previous DTM posts correctly its probably worth doing three Picture modes while I have all the equipment out. With User 3 being done in case the DTM algo is actually tone mapping to P3

User1 - SDR709 - Color Profile 709, 6500K, 2.4, low lamp, iris -6 (~60 nits)
User2 - HDR2020 - Color Profile BT2020, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0
User3 - HDR-P3 - Color Profile DCI, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0

Am I understanding your post correctly?


Thanks again
User 1 and User 2 make sense, User 3 only makes sense if you use a power gamma, though you only have to run a gamma autocal for user 2 or user 3 if the filter/lamp settings are the same. However, you can try to run a color calibration both for user 2 and user 3 if doing just one of these doesn't calibrate your DTM mode.

I have calibrated my SDR rec-709 (gamma+color), SDR BT2020 (color only as it shares its gamma calibration with P3) and SDR P3 (gamma+color) modes and DTM was calibrated fine as far as I could see.

I don't use any HDR modes as I either tonemap with madVR to DCI-P3 or use the DTM for non madVR sources.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 15, 2019, 05:22:39 PM
So I read a bunch of people say their black level changed with the new firmware and instead of running -2 or -3 on the brightness they are back to 0. I just checked mine and it looks like I am in the same boat. If I ran autocal last week on gamma with brightness set to -2 do I need to re run autocal at brightness 0. I thought I had seen that answered before but couldn't find the post :O Also just a heads up for people that my brightness did change with the firmware update as some other users had reported (in SDR and HDR modes).
I had no such changes and I still need brightness set to -2 in both SDR or HDR in order not to raise the black level and kill on/off contrast. I didn't do a reset to factory settings though.

You shouldn't need to recalibrate after changing the brightness settings. As far as I know, user settings such as brightness/contrast and RGB offsets/gains or gamma settings are only applied for logs, but are not taken into account for calibration. This is why it's a good idea to use a 2.2 gamma and to reset RGB settings before calibration, if you want to have usable logs. Otherwise make sure that you check and adjust all user settings after calibration, as the old ones won't be valid but are still applied.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: grendelrt on October 15, 2019, 05:28:11 PM
I had no such changes and I still need brightness set to -2 in both SDR or HDR in order not to raise the black level and kill on/off contrast. I didn't do a reset to factory settings though.

You shouldn't need to recalibrate after changing the brightness settings. As far as I know, user settings such as brightness/contrast and RGB offsets/gains or gamma settings are only applied for logs, but are not taken into account for calibration. This is why it's a good idea to use a 2.2 gamma and to reset RGB settings before calibration, if you want to have usable logs. Otherwise make sure that you check and adjust all user settings after calibration, as the old ones won't be valid but are still applied.
Thanks, I didn't see much difference in HCFR, so I think I am good. Yeah I was definitely at -2 since February to get my black floor correct, I had to go back to 0 after the update to get 18 SDR /72 HDR visible blinking again ( still without showing 64 HDR and 16 SDR). I only checked because I saw a couple other people post the same thing, and I thought my image looked too dark during John Wick 3. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: estabanj on October 15, 2019, 09:23:21 PM
User 1 and User 2 make sense, User 3 only makes sense if you use a power gamma, though you only have to run a gamma autocal for user 2 or user 3 if the filter/lamp settings are the same. However, you can try to run a color calibration both for user 2 and user 3 if doing just one of these doesn't calibrate your DTM mode.

I have calibrated my SDR rec-709 (gamma+color), SDR BT2020 (color only as it shares its gamma calibration with P3) and SDR P3 (gamma+color) modes and DTM was calibrated fine as far as I could see.

I don't use any HDR modes as I either tonemap with madVR to DCI-P3 or use the DTM for non madVR sources.
Thanks Manni, I will give it a try, when I get the new PJ
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 15, 2019, 11:47:04 PM
User 1 and User 2 make sense, User 3 only makes sense if you use a power gamma, though you only have to run a gamma autocal for user 2 or user 3 if the filter/lamp settings are the same. However, you can try to run a color calibration both for user 2 and user 3 if doing just one of these doesn't calibrate your DTM mode.

I have calibrated my SDR rec-709 (gamma+color), SDR BT2020 (color only as it shares its gamma calibration with P3) and SDR P3 (gamma+color) modes and DTM was calibrated fine as far as I could see.

I don't use any HDR modes as I either tonemap with madVR to DCI-P3 or use the DTM for non madVR sources.
I respectfully disagree.
I'm pretty sure 3rd will nullify 2nd. Again, the color profile selected is not relevant according to the manual. Also in your example, if the two modes share the same combination, you don’t need to calibrate color again.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 16, 2019, 05:46:55 AM
On my JVC NX9 I performed a gamma+color autocal with my Spyder5Pro for DCI mode (iris=0).  Everything looked perfect.
I use madvr + Kodi as the player, with madvr set to “display calibrated = DCI-P3”.
After adjusting Brightness to -3 and Contrast to +1 & Gamma to 2.4 PT3 DG3, I then went into HCFR with my i1D3 to fine-tune off screen (0.98 actual gain).
Using Custom 1/6500K, I found that I needed to drop green gain substantially to -11 just to get red and blue to come up. 

Does that sound normal? If not, what could I be doing wrong?
Are these projectors known to have this much green push?

Other adjustments in this DCI mode included offset red to +4, offset green to +2 and offset blue to -2.

Doing the same in Natural mode (6500K; gamma 2.4 PT3 DG3), I found I still needed to drop green gain to -5, red gain to -1 and red offset to +3.

It should also be noted that after an autocal of HDR10 mode (no filter; HDR color) I then had to do some really crazy adjustments of gains/offsets (with ATV4K as source) to bring greyscale inline.  Had to drop green gain to -15 and some other large adjustments of red and blue offsets.  Again, just wondering what is normal and what I could be doing wrong overall.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 16, 2019, 06:26:28 AM
This wouldn't be normal if you were using the i1pro, but as you're using a Spyder that's probably where the adjustments come from.

I tested a Spyder X and it's unusable for color. It actually made the calibration significantly worse than it was (my previous color autocal had been made a few hundred hours earlier with my i1pro2).

There is nothing wrong with the panels or the projector, but if you use an inaccurate meter for color, then when you finetune it you'll find it needs significant corrections.

Plus you're not using a reference meter. The error in the i1display3 could be in the same direction or the opposite direction. So you might be under or overcorrecting with the i1display3. There is no way to know unless you use a reference meter for such corrections.

As advised in the basic section, I wouldn't recommend using a spyder for color autocal. It's fine for gamma only (and better than the i1pro2 for that), but unless you've established the degree of accuracy of the spyder it's better not to use it for color at all.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on October 16, 2019, 06:59:07 AM
On my JVC NX9 I performed a gamma+color autocal with my Spyder5Pro for DCI mode (iris=0).  Everything looked perfect.
I use madvr + Kodi as the player, with madvr set to “display calibrated = DCI-P3”.
After adjusting Brightness to -3 and Contrast to +1 & Gamma to 2.4 PT3 DG3, I then went into HCFR with my i1D3 to fine-tune off screen (0.98 actual gain).
Using Custom 1/6500K, I found that I needed to drop green gain substantially to -11 just to get red and blue to come up. 

Does that sound normal? If not, what could I be doing wrong?
Are these projectors known to have this much green push?

Other adjustments in this DCI mode included offset red to +4, offset green to +2 and offset blue to -2.

Doing the same in Natural mode (6500K; gamma 2.4 PT3 DG3), I found I still needed to drop green gain to -5, red gain to -1 and red offset to +3.

It should also be noted that after an autocal of HDR10 mode (no filter; HDR color) I then had to do some really crazy adjustments of gains/offsets (with ATV4K as source) to bring greyscale inline.  Had to drop green gain to -15 and some other large adjustments of red and blue offsets.  Again, just wondering what is normal and what I could be doing wrong overall.
Dropping green that far could be normal but remember you aren't adjusting that from stock as in "Are these projectors known to have this much green push?". You ran color autocal with a spyder which could just not be very accurate compared to the i1 Display Pro. Your spyder could have added a bunch of green during autocal. Or perhaps they are both off somewhat from each other in opposite directions meaning that after you use one, using the other to correct it could be a bigger adjustment.

Also, you should not really use positive offset adjustments as that will raise your black floor and lower your contrast ratio pretty considerably. Instead if you want to tune the calibration with a better meter after doing the automatic autocal you should use the autocal gamma adjustment tab along with HCFR and your i1D3 which is a manual process.

Open the gamma editor in autocal, and in that screen set the gamma to Custom1 and the correction value to whatever you are targeting, like 2.2 or 2.4.

In the autocal gamma screen you will see that you have 12 gamma points: 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 95.

On the projector set the gamma value to Custom1 as well and set the correction value to "Import".

In HCFR make sure that in references (Advanced -> Preferences -> References tab) you set the gamma target to the same one that you selected in autocal correction value, like power law gamma 2.2 or 2.4. Also make sure you have the correct white point selected like D65. Then open the Grey Scale view and right click on the line graph part on the bottom and make sure the "w/Gamma" option is enabled. Finally go to Measures -> Parameters, and change the number of greyscale levels from 10 to 20.

The first thing you should do in HCFR is click the 100 in the % White row and click the green triangle to display white on your screen. On the JVC in your 6500K color temp adjust the gains to balance your white to 100%.

Now, before you begin adjusting in autocal, click the run greyscale button to measure all 20 grey scale levels.

When that is done, pick a point from my number list above, click on that number in the % White row in HCFR grey scale view and then click the Green triangle to display the pattern on your screen. Then in autocal gamma screen, use the first slider to move to that same number point that you chose to adjust. With the second slider you can then move white, red, green, or blue up or down. Moving white moves all 3, so adjust them as you need with the second slider to bring all 3 to 100%. This is calibrating both white balance and gamma to your target for that percent. Repeat this for all 12 points.

When you are done you can save this in autocal if you want, but there is nothing else left to do if you just want to use it, just set the JVC to the Custom1 that you used to do the adjustment.

When you are all done with this, finish by double checking your brightness and contrast values with the black and white clipping test patterns.

Hopefully I made this process clear. If you are at least somewhat familiar with HCFR, autocal, and JVC menus you should have no trouble. Otherwise ask if you need clarification on something.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: grendelrt on October 16, 2019, 07:40:01 AM
On my JVC NX9 I performed a gamma+color autocal with my Spyder5Pro for DCI mode (iris=0).  Everything looked perfect.
I use madvr + Kodi as the player, with madvr set to “display calibrated = DCI-P3”.
After adjusting Brightness to -3 and Contrast to +1 & Gamma to 2.4 PT3 DG3, I then went into HCFR with my i1D3 to fine-tune off screen (0.98 actual gain).
Using Custom 1/6500K, I found that I needed to drop green gain substantially to -11 just to get red and blue to come up. 

Does that sound normal? If not, what could I be doing wrong?
Are these projectors known to have this much green push?

Other adjustments in this DCI mode included offset red to +4, offset green to +2 and offset blue to -2.

Doing the same in Natural mode (6500K; gamma 2.4 PT3 DG3), I found I still needed to drop green gain to -5, red gain to -1 and red offset to +3.

It should also be noted that after an autocal of HDR10 mode (no filter; HDR color) I then had to do some really crazy adjustments of gains/offsets (with ATV4K as source) to bring greyscale inline.  Had to drop green gain to -15 and some other large adjustments of red and blue offsets.  Again, just wondering what is normal and what I could be doing wrong overall.
I did not autocal color and I was deficient on red for grayscale which caused me to have to drop back green and blue by around -13 I think on gain and barely any on offset just for blue. I am on a studiotek 100 screen with the adjustment put in the jvc. So may just be normal. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 16, 2019, 09:52:49 AM
This wouldn't be normal if you were using the i1pro, but as you're using a Spyder that's probably where the adjustments come from.

I tested a Spyder X and it's unusable for color. It actually made the calibration significantly worse than it was (my previous color autocal had been made a few hundred hours earlier with my i1pro2).

There is nothing wrong with the panels or the projector, but if you use an inaccurate meter for color, then when you finetune it you'll find it needs significant corrections.

Plus you're not using a reference meter. The error in the i1display3 could be in the same direction or the opposite direction. So you might be under or overcorrecting with the i1display3. There is no way to know unless you use a reference meter for such corrections.

As advised in the basic section, I wouldn't recommend using a spyder for color autocal. It's fine for gamma only (and better than the i1pro2 for that), but unless you've established the degree of accuracy of the spyder it's better not to use it for color at all.
This makes a lot of sense.  Now I'm wondering if I should revert back to my init file and just do the autocal for gamma only with SpyderPro5 and then do the manual gamma adjustments SirMaster graciously provided instructions for below.

In the end, I really just need 3 modes calibrated:

1.  Natural 709 - for TV (mainly sports) - which I usually autocal and then use patterns in madvr set to calibrated to 709 (since I can't get patterns from my TV cable source)

2.  Custom 1 (DCI) - for everything madvr - which I usually autocal and then use patterns in madvr set to calibrated to DCI-P3

3.  HDR10 (BT2020) - for HDR from my ATV4K streaming content - which I usually autocal and then use patterns in Plex to calibrate

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 16, 2019, 10:11:09 AM
Dropping green that far could be normal but remember you aren't adjusting that from stock as in "Are these projectors known to have this much green push?". You ran color autocal with a spyder which could just not be very accurate compared to the i1 Display Pro. Your spyder could have added a bunch of green during autocal. Or perhaps they are both off somewhat from each other in opposite directions meaning that after you use one, using the other to correct it could be a bigger adjustment.

Also, you should not really use positive offset adjustments as that will raise your black floor and lower your contrast ratio pretty considerably. Instead if you want to tune the calibration with a better meter after doing the automatic autocal you should use the autocal gamma adjustment tab along with HCFR and your i1D3 which is a manual process.

Open the gamma editor in autocal, and in that screen set the gamma to Custom1 and the correction value to whatever you are targeting, like 2.2 or 2.4.

In the autocal gamma screen you will see that you have 12 gamma points: 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 95.

On the projector set the gamma value to Custom1 as well and set the correction value to "Import".

In HCFR make sure that in references (Advanced -> Preferences -> References tab) you set the gamma target to the same one that you selected in autocal correction value, like power law gamma 2.2 or 2.4. Also make sure you have the correct white point selected like D65. Then open the Grey Scale view and right click on the line graph part on the bottom and make sure the "w/Gamma" option is enabled. Finally go to Measures -> Parameters, and change the number of greyscale levels from 10 to 20.

The first thing you should do in HCFR is click the 100 in the % White row and click the green triangle to display white on your screen. On the JVC in your 6500K color temp adjust the gains to balance your white to 100%.

Now, before you begin adjusting in autocal, click the run greyscale button to measure all 20 grey scale levels.

When that is done, pick a point from my number list above, click on that number in the % White row in HCFR grey scale view and then click the Green triangle to display the pattern on your screen. Then in autocal gamma screen, use the first slider to move to that same number point that you chose to adjust. With the second slider you can then move white, red, green, or blue up or down. Moving white moves all 3, so adjust them as you need with the second slider to bring all 3 to 100%. This is calibrating both white balance and gamma to your target for that percent. Repeat this for all 12 points.

When you are done you can save this in autocal if you want, but there is nothing else left to do if you just want to use it, just set the JVC to the Custom1 that you used to do the adjustment.

When you are all done with this, finish by double checking your brightness and contrast values with the black and white clipping test patterns.

Hopefully I made this process clear. If you are at least somewhat familiar with HCFR, autocal, and JVC menus you should have no trouble. Otherwise ask if you need clarification on something.


Wow, thanks so much for these instructions.  Yes, I am familiar with these tools.

I didn't know about adding gains/offsets upsetting contrast.  Good to know.

I also just learned that the color autocal affects the white balance - I had thought it was only adjusting the CMS (which I didn't touch in HCFR afterwards).  I had no idea it was also affecting the gains/offsets even though they are still all set to 0 once done.

So, should my calibration approach now be?
1.  Reset projector using autocal init file.
2.  Perform a gamma only autocal (with/without filter - all in low lamp -for now)
3.  Use HCFR and my i1D3 to perform the manual gamma calibration as per your instructions above.

I'd want to calibrate ideally all 3 of the user modes I listed in my previous post replying to Manni.
Would I be able to do that with this method by just switching it between each mode and repeating the steps you provided?

Also, finally a question about performing a DCI 3DLUT for use with madvr Custom 1 DCI mode after performing the above on that user mode:
As DisplayCal has that calibration window of it's own to lineup the bars in the middle with adjustments to gains/offsets - should I be making further adjustments in the gains/offsets to line that up before commencing the profiling and subsequent 3DLUT creation & installation?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on October 16, 2019, 10:38:26 AM
Wow, thanks so much for these instructions.  Yes, I am familiar with these tools.

I didn't know about adding gains/offsets upsetting contrast.  Good to know.

I also just learned that the color autocal affects the white balance - I had thought it was only adjusting the CMS (which I didn't touch in HCFR afterwards).  I had no idea it was also affecting the gains/offsets even though they are still all set to 0 once done.

So, should my calibration approach now be?
1.  Reset projector using autocal init file.
2.  Perform a gamma only autocal (with/without filter - all in low lamp -for now)
3.  Use HCFR and my i1D3 to perform the manual gamma calibration as per your instructions above.

I'd want to calibrate ideally all 3 of the user modes I listed in my previous post replying to Manni.
Would I be able to do that with this method by just switching it between each mode and repeating the steps you provided?

Also, finally a question about performing a DCI 3DLUT for use with madvr Custom 1 DCI mode after performing the above on that user mode:
As DisplayCal has that calibration window of it's own to lineup the bars in the middle with adjustments to gains/offsets - should I be making further adjustments in the gains/offsets to line that up before commencing the profiling and subsequent 3DLUT creation & installation?


Negative adjustments to gains/offsets don't harm black or contrast. Positive adjustments to offsets do, but I don't think positive adjustments to gains do.



Your approach sounds fine. You can fine tune each if you need by using a different custom gamma slot for each. Just use custom2 and custom3 for the other 2 modes you are making.



If you are doing a 3DLUT in DisplayCAL then you don't even need to do any adjustment for that user mode. Just leave your gamma in the JVC at 2.2 or 2.4 and do the 3DLUT. The 3DLUT will take care of calibrating absolutely everything as the i1D3 sees it. You do not need to do anything with the RGB bar screen that pops up before the 3DLUT. The 3DLUT will calibrate everything correctly including white.





Technically there is one other thing you could do that would potentially improve your color gamut. Normally this would be taken care of with color autocal, but you would want an i1 Pro 2 for this. However, this is a way to basically do it with any meter.



It's referred to as the Chad B method.




What he is describing here is a method of fixing the color gamut after doing a color autocal with a spyder. He talks about using CalMAN, but you can easily use HCFR as well. In HCFR under Measures -> Parameters, just set the number of saturation color levels to 10, then you can measure 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, and 100 color saturations to get the x and y values to fill in his spreadhseet like he says.



It's a somewhat advanced method, but it would potentially expand your color gamut since you are performing the measures with color profile off in the JVC (i.e. native bulb gamut) and then using the measurements to create a new custom color profile which will have the correct primary coordinates (according to the better meter being used in HCFR rather than the spyder via color autocal) which you can create and load via autocal.



I think technically automatic autocal wouldn't even be beneficial here.



1. You would do The Chad B method to create a custom color gamut based on color saturation measurements taken in HCFR with i1D3.

2. You would do adjust the gains to set 100% white with HCFR with i1D3.

3. You would do the 12 point RGB gamma calibration in autocal with HCFR with i1D3.



I guess you could still put a gamma autocal with the spyder in between steps 1 and 2 because you can get a more detailed 33-point gamma cal then and the spyder is OK for that.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 16, 2019, 11:27:20 AM
The above method works fine if the target gamut entirely fits withing the gamut covered by the projector.

If any point is undersaturated, it doesn't work as well as it cannot make the difference between a meter error and a limitation in the projector's native gamut, so it can over-correct unnecessarily. It usually works fine for rec-709 (unless green or red can't be reached), but it doesn't work as well for DCI-P3 or BT2020.

I recommend correcting only white, unless all the target primaries can be reached at 100% sat.

I have put together a modified method that produces better results with DCI-P3 and BT2020 (as well as rec-709 when the unit doesn't reach 100% sat for each primary), but the i1pro2 produces perfect results so my motivation for posting about this was pretty low.

If anyone is interested, I'll try to put it together next month, when I have a bit more time.

I haven't posted on the manual gamma calibration method either as no one asked and as it's pretty much unnecessary after a properly done gamma autocal, given how quickly these projectors drift. By the time you've tuned your last point, the first point has probably already drifted. I'm only slightly exaggerating :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on October 16, 2019, 11:50:51 AM
The above method works fine if the target gamut entirely fits withing the gamut covered by the projector.

If any point is undersaturated, it doesn't work as well as it cannot make the difference between a meter error and a limitation in the projector's native gamut, so it can over-correct unnecessarily. It usually works fine for rec-709 (unless green or red can't be reached), but it doesn't work as well for DCI-P3 or BT2020.

I recommend correcting only white, unless all the target primaries can be reached at 100% sat.

I have put together a modified method that produces better results with DCI-P3 and BT2020 (as well as rec-709 when the unit doesn't reach 100% sat for each primary), but the i1pro2 produces perfect results so my motivation for posting about this was pretty low.

If anyone is interested, I'll try to put it together next month, when I have a bit more time.

I haven't posted on the manual gamma calibration method either as no one asked and as it's pretty much unnecessary after a properly done gamma autocal, given how quickly these projectors drift. By the time you've tuned your last point, the first point has probably already drifted. I'm only slightly exaggerating :)

I think that would be cool.

I agree it's not needed if you have an i1 Pro 2, but for people who don't, I think there is some value.

Personally I was looking into stuff like this so that I could calibrate my cousins RS400 which does not support the i1 Pro 2, only Spyder4/5.

I find that running the color autocal with a good meter actually expands the gamut coverage at least on my NX5 since it's able to carve out a new gamut from measurements taken with profile off on the native bulb.  I was looking for a way to accomplish this for people who don't have a spectrometer or older JVC that don't support it.

Also I was wondering if you know what part of autocal is responsible for sometimes resulting in an increased peak brightness after running the autocal?  I was hoping I could try to reproduce that potential brightness gain again for people who don't own an i1 Pro 2 or for older JVCs that don't support the spectrometer.

My assumption is that it's some internal calibration tables that we just cant access, but maybe via custom color gamut or similar, we can achieve it?

As far as the manual gamma cal I again agree that it's also not really needed if you can do the color autocal with the i1 Pro 2, but if you can't (for some above reasons) I find that it's a good way to perform the white balance if adjusting the gains alone isn't sufficient.

For example, here is my NX5 measured stock: 
https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal_old/stock.pdf

I (https://nicko88.com/misc/nx5cal_old/stock.pdf)f all I had was a Spyder5 and i1D3 so all I could do is gamma autocal, the white balance is still pretty out of whack and the 12 point gamma cal is a good way to dial in the rest of the white balance without using the offset/bias adjustments which always seem to hurt more than help.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 16, 2019, 02:23:21 PM
I agree, I used all this with my rs500 as it only supported the spyder 4/5, but with the rs2000 and the i1pro2 support on top of the spyder 5/X, autocal is so much faster/easier :)

No spreadsheets, no fastidious, unnecessary manual corrections. Just gamma with Spyder, color with i1pro2, and you barely need a 3D LUT, all in less than 10 minutes. 8)

That's why my motivation to explain manual processes that are not needed with the right tools has gone significantly down.

They are still useful with older gens or if you want to cut corners, but if your time is money, investing in a Spyder X / i1pro2 combo is a no brainer.

Given the cost of these units (especially rs2000/rs3000), I'd say that it's a very reasonable investment for "maintenance".

I'll try to put something together next month though.

To answer your question about restoring brightness, it's a combination of two things:

1) The meter used. Some spyders are really off (up to 10dEs or more), so you can lose a lot of brightness using the wrong one for color calibration, as it will overcorrect and shave brightness unnecessarily.
2) Once the internal tables are corrected, you don't need the external gains corrections (or much less) and you can restore some brightness that way too.

No there is no way (that I know of) to access these tables, but it's not really necessary. Just make sure you're using a meter that doesn't hobble brightness with color calibrations because it's inaccurate (could be the spyder with autocal or any other meter used to adjust the gains at 100% white).

I find that if you use bias/gains at the optimal IRE for best balance and use the gamma controls in the menus (dark/picture/bright) you can get very close. That's much faster than using the manual gamma controls, but I agree it's less accurate.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 16, 2019, 04:46:16 PM
Does the color autocal drift like the gamma does as bulb ages?

I have an option to borrow a far away friend's i1photo pro 2 (is that the same as an i1pro2?) but obtaining it in the future for maintenance will be tougher.  Just wondering if it might just be a one time calibration and that's it?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 16, 2019, 04:54:48 PM
The gamut doesn’t shift much (though it can shrink a bit after a couple of thousand hours) but the rgb balance keeps changing as the lamp ages. You could always do a color autocal now with a borrowed i1pro2 and keep checking. If your lamp has stabilized (it needs 300-500 hours) then you might be fine for a while.

Best would be to get an i1pro2 or ES2000, new or second hand.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 16, 2019, 05:00:32 PM
The gamut doesn’t shift much (though it can shrink a bit after a couple of thousand hours) but the rgb balance keeps changing as the lamp ages. You could always do a color autocal now with a borrowed i1pro2 and keep checking. If your lamp has stabilized (it needs 300-500 hours) then you might be fine for a while.

Best would be to get an i1pro2 or ES2000, new or second hand.
So is the i1pro2 the same as an i1photo pro 2 (E02PHO)?  My friend has the latter as said on the box, but I think that's just the bundle - isn't it the same i1pro2 between the i1basic pro2, i1photo pro 2 and i1pubish pro 2?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 16, 2019, 05:20:15 PM
So is the i1pro2 the same as an i1photo pro 2 (E02PHO)?  My friend has the latter as said on the box, but I think that's just the bundle - isn't it the same i1pro2 between the i1basic pro2, i1photo pro 2 and i1pubish pro 2?
No idea. There used to be differences with UV-cut between versions, but I can’t even remember which is the correct one for display calibration.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 17, 2019, 01:23:18 AM
I applied a variation to Chad method because I was concerned to work on the boundaries of the gamut.
So what I do is reading RGBW at 70,80,90 ire but with saturation 75%. I think it is more reliable because it is an area more used by the contents and far enough from VPR limits. I then interpolate to estimate xy values at 100% and then create a custom color profile. Same speculative approach for BT.2020, deriving the gaps with a proportional calculation.
Everything in excel. Very good results! Not applicable to DTM though :(
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 17, 2019, 05:49:24 AM
My friend is going to ship me his i1pro2 (i1photo pro 2).  I'll reset with my init file my NX9 and then do gamma only autocal with my Spyder5Pro and then color only on all iris positions, etc. with the i1pro2.

I'll then remeasure with HCFR & my i1d3 to see how much it is off of the autocal'd i1pro2, so that I can then return my friend's unit and then over time I can adjust gains/offsets with HCFR+i1d3 but then I'll be informed at least of how much it would be off and in what gains/offsets.

Does this look like a good approach?  Just looking to avoid purchasing a $2000+ (Cdn) unit.

Side question:  I noticed on my NX9 that the iris seems to engage it's motor every couple iris positions (whereas my older RS620 didn't do it so close together of positions).
So, just want to confirm on the NX9 that the color only autocal can still be done at 0, -5, -10, -15?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 17, 2019, 06:03:33 AM
My friend is going to ship me his i1pro2 (i1photo pro 2).  I'll reset with my init file my NX9 and then do gamma only autocal with my Spyder5Pro and then color only on all iris positions, etc. with the i1pro2.

I'll then remeasure with HCFR & my i1d3 to see how much it is off of the autocal'd i1pro2, so that I can then return my friend's unit and then over time I can adjust gains/offsets with HCFR+i1d3 but then I'll be informed at least of how much it would be off and in what gains/offsets.

Does this look like a good approach?  Just looking to avoid purchasing a $2000+ (Cdn) unit.

Side question:  I noticed on my NX9 that the iris seems to engage it's motor every couple iris positions (whereas my older RS620 didn't do it so close together of positions).
So, just want to confirm on the NX9 that the color only autocal can still be done at 0, -5, -10, -15?
Sounds good. You could also train the i1d3 to the ipro2 (if checking color and gamma) or with the i1pro2 directly (if checking gamut) to make sure that it's not the i1d3 that adds some errors.

The iris make a different noise at each step depending on which iris is being moved, as the NX9 has a dual iris. That's normal.

You can do 0, -5, -10, -15 or you can do 0, -4, -8, -12, depending on which step you are actually using.

There is a very big difference between some steps (for example -13 and -12) so it's always better to make sure that the step you are actually using is calibrated.

As you don't have an i1pro2 permanently, I would probably do the second one (0-4-8-12) rather than the first, as it uses steps that are more useful. I used to use -15, so that's why I came up with these steps, but 0-4-8-12 are supposed to be the actual steps. Never rechecked as I only do color for the settings I actually use (only one color per calibration) until I need to open the iris a bit (not often!).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: grendelrt on October 17, 2019, 08:28:57 AM
Sounds good. You could also train the i1d3 to the ipro2 (if checking color and gamma) or with the i1pro2 directly (if checking gamut) to make sure that it's not the i1d3 that adds some errors.

The iris make a different noise at each step depending on which iris is being moved, as the NX9 has a dual iris. That's normal.

You can do 0, -5, -10, -15 or you can do 0, -4, -8, -12, depending on which step you are actually using.

There is a very big difference between some steps (for example -13 and -12) so it's always better to make sure that the step you are actually using is calibrated.

As you don't have an i1pro2 permanently, I would probably do the second one (0-4-8-12) rather than the first, as it uses steps that are more useful. I used to use -15, so that's why I came up with these steps, but 0-4-8-12 are supposed to be the actual steps. Never rechecked as I only do color for the settings I actually use (only one color per calibration) until I need to open the iris a bit (not often!).
Hey Manni, are you going to spend anytime or add a section with the Frame Adapt HDR? I would interested in hearing your impressions on various aspects of it. Such as which settings you found best, if you adjusted your iris + lamp settings with the frame adapt settings (ie High Adapt with iris closed down), and how you feel it stacks up to MadVR currently (I am also a MadVR user).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 17, 2019, 10:48:04 AM
Sounds good. You could also train the i1d3 to the ipro2 (if checking color and gamma) or with the i1pro2 directly (if checking gamut) to make sure that it's not the i1d3 that adds some errors.

The iris make a different noise at each step depending on which iris is being moved, as the NX9 has a dual iris. That's normal.

You can do 0, -5, -10, -15 or you can do 0, -4, -8, -12, depending on which step you are actually using.

There is a very big difference between some steps (for example -13 and -12) so it's always better to make sure that the step you are actually using is calibrated.

As you don't have an i1pro2 permanently, I would probably do the second one (0-4-8-12) rather than the first, as it uses steps that are more useful. I used to use -15, so that's why I came up with these steps, but 0-4-8-12 are supposed to be the actual steps. Never rechecked as I only do color for the settings I actually use (only one color per calibration) until I need to open the iris a bit (not often!).
Thanks or this.  And yes, big steps on the iris:
-9 gets me 18ftL & -10 gets me 13.5ftL
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 17, 2019, 01:04:41 PM
When doing gamma autocal, does doing it with filter engaged on DCI also calibrate gamma on filter engaged on BT2020?  (i.e. is it the same filter or different filter necessitating a separate autocal)?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 17, 2019, 01:24:01 PM
When doing gamma autocal, does doing it with filter engaged on DCI also calibrate gamma on filter engaged on BT2020?  (i.e. is it the same filter or different filter necessitating a separate autocal)?
Same filter, same gamma calibration (if lamp setting is the same)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 17, 2019, 01:51:46 PM
Hey Manni, are you going to spend anytime or add a section with the Frame Adapt HDR? I would interested in hearing your impressions on various aspects of it. Such as which settings you found best, if you adjusted your iris + lamp settings with the frame adapt settings (ie High Adapt with iris closed down), and how you feel it stacks up to MadVR currently (I am also a MadVR user).
I'll try to look at it more closely next month, when I get my life back :)

In the meantime, I posted my first impressions here (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14262#msg14262).

It's definitely an improvement over the old static TM in most cases, so it's great for non HTPC sources or people who don't use madVR or a Radiance.

But madVR produces significantly better and more consistent results (which isn't a surprise).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 17, 2019, 06:47:23 PM
Same filter, same gamma calibration (if lamp setting is the same)
I can't seem to get the i1pro2 in the orange box in autocal.  It would seem I'd have to move it so far back it would be well behind the projector.  Does that sound right? 
This is with iris = 0 low lamp.

I have it facing the screen.
If I place it 1' away it's almost at the projector in the interactive orange box picture.
edit:  I just read this may be a bug.  I'll position it in my typical 2' from screen.

Second question:
While I did my gamma only with brightness/contrast at 0; should I be setting my brightness/contrast before doing the color only calibrations?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 18, 2019, 01:09:02 AM
I can't seem to get the i1pro2 in the orange box in autocal.  It would seem I'd have to move it so far back it would be well behind the projector.  Does that sound right? 
This is with iris = 0 low lamp.

I have it facing the screen.
If I place it 1' away it's almost at the projector in the interactive orange box picture.
edit:  I just read this may be a bug.  I'll position it in my typical 2' from screen.

Second question:
While I did my gamma only with brightness/contrast at 0; should I be setting my brightness/contrast before doing the color only calibrations?
Just replied to this two pages back (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14297#msg14297). It's also explained in step 9 of the general section in the basic preparation post (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10389#msg10389).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Sittler27 on October 18, 2019, 05:34:41 AM
Just replied to this two pages back (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14297#msg14297). It's also explained in step 9 of the general section in the basic preparation post (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg10389#msg10389).

Got it, thanks.

Should I be setting my brightness/contrast before doing the color only calibration off screen or should I leave those at 0 like I did with the gamma only?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jmonier on October 18, 2019, 09:13:28 AM
I haven't seen anything about zeroing the Spyder X before use so I thought I'd mention it here.  Unlike the Spyder 5 it requires that this be done.  The zeroing run is done with the cap in place.  I've found that it gives very wrong readings below about 30% or so if this is not done.  This might even account for the bad color Autocals.

I haven't yet tried it with Autocal but I would presume that it is done by having the cap in place at startup similar to the i1Pro2.  (Of course, that assumes that JVC has implemented it correctly.)

UPDATE!!!:

I've investigated further and found that the zeroing capability is strictly a function of the Argyll drivers.  It still appears that the Spyder X is not as good at the lower levels as the Spyder 5 when the dark output is not zeroed, but the difference may not be that important.

In looking at the Spyder X vs. the Spyder 5 when not trained against the i1Pro, it appears that they have significantly different spectral characteristics (not really surprising).  I hope that JVC has taken that into consideration but, given the problems seen by Manni (and Kris Deering), it seems possible that they have not.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 18, 2019, 09:19:43 AM
I haven't seen anything about zeroing the Spyder X before use so I thought I'd mention it here.  Unlike the Spyder 5 it requires that this be done.  The zeroing run is done with the cap in place.  I've found that it gives very wrong readings below about 30% or so if this is not done.  This might even account for the bad color Autocals.

I haven't yet tried it with Autocal but I would presume that it is done by having the cap in place at startup similar to the i1Pro2.  (Of course, that assumes that JVC has implemented it correctly.)
Thanks, that's really interesting, though in my experience it's the reading above 30% that get progressively worse and worse in the Autocal. I had no problem with readings below 30%.

Also you can't use the i1pro2 is you don't do the dark recal. While the Autocal has no problem using the Spyder X without doing a dark cal procedure. So I doubt it is implemented in the software.


I'll give it another try next month when I get my life back :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jmonier on October 18, 2019, 09:43:37 AM
I discovered this while I was comparing Spyder X, Spyder 5 and i1DisplayPro, using HCFR, all trained by my I1Pro.  The Spyder 5 and i1DisplayPro tracked very well while the Spyder X looked really bad below 30-40%.  One thing that I didn't think of at the time was that, even though it looked bad, dE might not have been very bad.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 18, 2019, 09:57:15 AM
Yes as I said in my brief report I'm waiting for the Spyder X to be supported in Calman because I just don't have it in me to do any test of the sort with Lightspace. Hopefully Calman support will arrive soon and I can take some measurements to compare the 5 pro, X pro and i1pro2. Otherwise I might give it a try with Lightspace, but it's really not ideal.

In any case, not before next month :)
Title: Autocal Software does not detect the SpyderX
Post by: alamagar on October 19, 2019, 01:25:02 AM
Hi all,
I am trying to make the first Autocal to my brand new RS2000. Not new to calibation, many years calibrating with HCFR and i1d3.
But now I am struggeling before start calibrating with Autocal. I just received the new SpyderX, installed the Autocal 12 v1 calibration software, deal with the network settings (working) but... the Autocal does not detect the spyderX.

Steps I followed:

Worth to say, that when I connect the spyderX to the USB port it is recognized by the system, it is displayed in the devices section of control pannel and I have the typical USB icon to extract the device. As well, I checked with the datacolor utility before unistalling it and it recognized the spyderX
By the way, I tried with HCFR 3.5.1.4 and I noticed the it neither recognizes the spyderX, but may be it shouldn't.

What I am doing wrong?
Can anyone help me?

Many thanks in advance.
Mario.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 19, 2019, 04:07:15 AM
Hi Mario,

Welcome to the thread :)

As explained in the basic section, you have to uninstall the Datacolor software that is only used to install the driver, otherwise the datacolor software loaded during startup conflicts with the Autocal.

As you have done so already, I have no idea why your Spyder X isn't detected.

If you're using a USB HUB, I would try to use a native USB port.

If you're using a laptop, I would try to use a powered USB HUB.

But if the Spyder X is detected by the datacalor software and not by the JVC Autocal, as long as you've double checked that it's the V12 that's installed and not another one, I have no idea.

Make sure the cap is off from the Spyder X.

I'd try from another PC/laptop if you can.

You could also try to run the task manager and make sure there is no resident left in memory.

Let us know if you find the reason, but that's weird.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: alamagar on October 19, 2019, 11:13:27 AM
Hi Mario,

Welcome to the thread :)

As explained in the basic section, you have to uninstall the Datacolor software that is only used to install the driver, otherwise the datacolor software loaded during startup conflicts with the Autocal.

As you have done so already, I have no idea why your Spyder X isn't detected.

If you're using a USB HUB, I would try to use a native USB port.

If you're using a laptop, I would try to use a powered USB HUB.

But if the Spyder X is detected by the datacalor software and not by the JVC Autocal, as long as you've double checked that it's the V12 that's installed and not another one, I have no idea.

Make sure the cap is off from the Spyder X.

I'd try from another PC/laptop if you can.

You could also try to run the task manager and make sure there is no resident left in memory.

Let us know if you find the reason, but that's weird.
Thank you Manni!
This is driving me crazy!
I am using a native USB port and I tried with the 2 USB ports in the laptop. It is the same USB port I use with my i1d3 without problems.
I tried with the laptop connected to the power and not connected to.
Nothing seems to be resident in memory and the cap is open.
I tried with another laptop, but not able to get the network connection (!!)

Is there any hidden button to switch on the spyder?;D


So, if I undertsand:
1.- It is necessary to install the datacolor software utility, but after that uninstall it. This is supposed to get only the driver. Correct?. If I connect directly the spyderX without installing the utility, windows recognizes it and assign directly a driver, even if I previously unistall the device and the driver.

2.- Is it possible to install only the driver from datacolor and not the software utility?

3.- I attach 3 images: 1.- the message of Autocal, 2.- the driver as is recognized in the "device administrator"(sorry is in spanish) and 3.- the properties window of the driver wich shows date of 11-05-2011. Is the same as you have?

Any other idea?

Thanks again!
Mario.





Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 19, 2019, 12:48:25 PM
My Spyder X driver is different (and dated from 2006!) but it works, weirdly. I'm on Win 10 Pro x64 build 1903.

However my Spyder 5 driver doesn't show up, and Autocal V11 still works, so go figure. [EDIT: see jmonier's post below, and let us know your OS version)]

I would suggest to:


Hopefully this will install the correct driver and you'll be on your way.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jmonier on October 20, 2019, 06:32:36 AM
It appears that the Spyder X uses a generic driver on Win 10 ( and probably Win 8 ).  Certainly if the Spyder X is plugged into the USB port without the Datacolor software installed it is recognized and Device Manager says the driver is valid.  In addition, the driver folder in the Datacolor software is labeled "Win7 - USB". 

My experience is that, for JVC use only, there is no need to install the Datacolor software on Win 10.  On Win 7, the device driver in "Win7 - USB" is needed but it can (and in some cases must) be installed separately via Device Manager.  See also:

https://support.datacolor.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/1846/0/spyderx-driver-on-windows-7-may-not-be-installed-properly
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 20, 2019, 06:56:33 AM
Thanks, that makes sense and most likely explains it.

My recommendation to install/uninstall the Datacolor software to get the drive dates back to Windows 7 and the spyder 3/4, no doubt.

Good to know it's not necessary anymore on Windows 8/10 and 7 if up to date.

I'll update the basic section when I find the time.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 20, 2019, 09:00:20 AM
Hi Manni, I tried to perform a calibration with SpyderX and I experienced issues similar to what you reported: good gamma (although I think I lost too much luminance), but checked the grayscale and I got an increasing dE till exceeding 6% at 100%! Exceed of red. Still acceptable until 30% as you reported.
Have you had opportunities to test the spyderx alone to understand whether it is a software issue?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 20, 2019, 09:22:23 AM
Hi Manni, I tried to perform a calibration with SpyderX and I experienced issues similar to what you reported: good gamma (although I think I lost too much luminance), but checked the grayscale and I got an increasing dE till exceeding 6% at 100%! Exceed of red. Still acceptable until 30% as you reported.
Have you had opportunities to test the spyderx alone to understand whether it is a software issue?
As I said I'm hoping that by the time I have the time to look at this again (not before next month) there will be a Calman beta that supports the Spyder X. Otherwise I might reluctantly take a look with Lightspace.
Then we'll know if it's a software issue or if it's the Spyder.
You shouldn't be losing any luminance if you only use the Spyder for gamma.
If you use it for color as well, then yes you can lose a lot depending on how accurate that specific unit is.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 20, 2019, 10:17:53 AM
As I said I'm hoping that by the time I have the time to look at this again (not before next month) there will be a Calman beta that supports the Spyder X. Otherwise I might reluctantly take a look with Lightspace.
Then we'll know if it's a software issue or if it's the Spyder.
You shouldn't be losing any luminance if you only use the Spyder for gamma.
If you use it for color as well, then yes you can lose a lot depending on how accurate that specific unit is.
Ok, it must be the color calibration then... Hope you can provide more information next month
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: 3ll3d00d on October 20, 2019, 02:31:08 PM
this might be an obvious Q but I couldn't see an answer so thought I'd ask here

What exactly is contained in the cbd files?

For example, you do a gamma only then a colour only run, it creates

1) an init file (on first run)
2) a cbd file (after the gamma run)
3) a cbd file (after the colour run)

does the file contain the complete state of the pj (for that iris etc selection) at the time the cbd file is created? i.e. the content accumulates with each rune (so the file created at step 3 is the content from the 2nd file + whatever changed as a result of the colour run)

if so, how can there be only 1 init file if it creates n cbd files?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 20, 2019, 02:40:54 PM
this might be an obvious Q but I couldn't see an answer so thought I'd ask here

What exactly is contained in the cbd files?

For example, you do a gamma only then a colour only run, it creates

1) an init file (on first run)
2) a cbd file (after the gamma run)
3) a cbd file (after the colour run)

does the file contain the complete state of the pj (for that iris etc selection) at the time the cbd file is created? i.e. the content accumulates with each rune (so the file created at step 3 is the content from the 2nd file + whatever changed as a result of the colour run)

if so, how can there be only 1 init file if it creates n cbd files?
The init file is just the first cbd file. It's the only one that contains the projector state before the Autocal is used. Once the autocal has been used, there is no way to read that state. That's why it's unique. After that, the .cbd files contain the state after the autocal, not before (I think).

Last time I looked, each .cbd file contains the whole tables,  it's not differential. They should all be the same size.

They save internal calibration tables, not settings.
To save settings, you have to save user modes, color profiles etc using the save options in the autocal.

That's why doing a reset to factory doesn't replace restoring the init file, and why restoring the init file shouldn't change your settings.

Reset to factory defaults = reset user settings.
Restore init file= restore calibration tables to their pre-autocal use state.

The only thing I was never able to find out (I did ask a few times but never got an answer) is whether the init file is specific to each unit, or if the tables all have the same values when they ship out of factory.

I never had the need (or the gut) to try restoring an init file from the same model but a different unit.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: den110 on October 20, 2019, 02:51:38 PM
Hi Manni,

Wondering if you can shed some light on an issue I have connecting my laptop to the RS2000 via Autocal v. 12.  It won't connect (Connect NG) via a direct Ethernet connection from my laptop to the pj - DHCP off.  The only way it would connect is through my home network - via DHCP on and having my home network assign an IP address.  Here is my setup:


Just wondering if the adapter for some reason is causing the issue.

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 20, 2019, 02:52:32 PM
As I said I'm hoping that by the time I have the time to look at this again (not before next month) there will be a Calman beta that supports the Spyder X. Otherwise I might reluctantly take a look with Lightspace.
Then we'll know if it's a software issue or if it's the Spyder.
You shouldn't be losing any luminance if you only use the Spyder for gamma.
If you use it for color as well, then yes you can lose a lot depending on how accurate that specific unit is.
Did you have oversaturated red like me?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 20, 2019, 03:20:26 PM
Hi Manni,

Wondering if you can shed some light on an issue I have connecting my laptop to the RS2000 via Autocal v. 12.  It won't connect (Connect NG) via a direct Ethernet connection from my laptop to the pj - DHCP off.  The only way it would connect is through my home network - via DHCP on and having my home network assign an IP address.  Here is my setup:

  • Lenovo Yoga 2 in 1 laptop with no ethernet port - connection done via thunderbolt USB c port and a USB C to Gigabit Ethernet network adapter. this one -  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X4S5AQO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X4S5AQO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
  • The adapter works fine when I connect to my router and becomes an ethernet internet connection
  • When I try to use it to connect to the pj via  - DHCP off, IP address is the same in the pj as the autocal software
  • using default network settings in pj and making sure IP address is the same in the software
  • tried the power cycle as you describe in the troubleshooting section for the pj to reset the pj eithernet port
  • tried to use another IP address; even the one assigned by the home network; still no go.
  • Updated all drivers, bios etc on the laptop,
  • workaround is just connecting the pj to the home network, but wanted to do a direct connection to the pj if possible

Just wondering if the adapter for some reason is causing the issue.
Sorry but I never used direct connection, only connect through router with reserved DHCP address.

The only thing I would recommend is to check the IP address of the laptop when using a direct connection. Often it's a different range (for example, it would be 192.168.1.x with the router and 192.168.0.x with the direct connection, or even something completely different). So don't assume that you laptop IP address remains in the same range, and make sure the IP address of the PJ is assigned to the same range as the laptop, and the same IP mask (255.255.255.0 or whatever).

Good luck!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 20, 2019, 03:21:06 PM
Did you have oversaturated red like me?
No, my DCI red is slightly undersaturated, as can be seen on all the screenshots posted in the basic / advanced sections.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 20, 2019, 06:41:01 PM
Hi Manni,

Wondering if you can shed some light on an issue I have connecting my laptop to the RS2000 via Autocal v. 12.  It won't connect (Connect NG) via a direct Ethernet connection from my laptop to the pj - DHCP off.  The only way it would connect is through my home network - via DHCP on and having my home network assign an IP address.  Here is my setup:

  • Lenovo Yoga 2 in 1 laptop with no ethernet port - connection done via thunderbolt USB c port and a USB C to Gigabit Ethernet network adapter. this one -  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X4S5AQO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X4S5AQO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
  • The adapter works fine when I connect to my router and becomes an ethernet internet connection
  • When I try to use it to connect to the pj via  - DHCP off, IP address is the same in the pj as the autocal software
  • using default network settings in pj and making sure IP address is the same in the software
  • tried the power cycle as you describe in the troubleshooting section for the pj to reset the pj eithernet port
  • tried to use another IP address; even the one assigned by the home network; still no go.
  • Updated all drivers, bios etc on the laptop,
  • workaround is just connecting the pj to the home network, but wanted to do a direct connection to the pj if possible

Just wondering if the adapter for some reason is causing the issue.


Why do you want to do a direct connection? 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 21, 2019, 01:03:40 AM
@den110: I found an old procedure for a f/w update (older model X30) where JVC gave advice for direct connection. It's in on page 3, section 2. LAN Connection settings. Of course ignore everything else as it doesn't apply to our 4K models.

By the way make sure you're using a straight cable, you can't use a crossover cable for direct LAN connection.

I'd look at the IP address of the PC/Laptop first, and select a different IP address in the same range with the same subnet mask. It should work with the right cable.

I assume you'd like a direct connection with a laptop to be physically closer to the PJ if the PJ is located far away from the router, but if you can go through a router it's preferable and easier.

One thing I do when I need to be closer to the meters is I use Remote Desktop to control my laptop from an iPad. It works great and allows you to be mobile, while still having the calibrating PC/laptop connected to the router.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: 3ll3d00d on October 21, 2019, 02:32:53 AM
Restore init file= restore calibration tables to their pre-autocal use state.
so a cbd file is the complete state of the projector after that particular run? i.e. No point keeping old files around once a new run is complete

how does one restore a cbd file? this isn't mentioned in the docs as far as I can see
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 21, 2019, 03:58:17 AM
so a cbd file is the complete state of the projector after that particular run? i.e. No point keeping old files around once a new run is complete

how does one restore a cbd file? this isn't mentioned in the docs as far as I can see
It is mentioned at page 7:

Recovering Backup Data
1 Click the “IMPORT” button (4th button from left on the main screen).
2 Select the backup data file from the folder, and click “Open”.
3 The backup data is imported to the projector.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 21, 2019, 04:01:27 AM
so a cbd file is the complete state of the projector after that particular run? i.e. No point keeping old files around once a new run is complete

how does one restore a cbd file? this isn't mentioned in the docs as far as I can see
No, it's not the complete state of the projector, as explained in my former post. It's only the complete calibration tables (all the calibration tables, so the current state of the projector as far as internal calibration tables are concerned, not just the last one). It doesn't include any of the settings.

I keep all the files so that I can go back to a particular state if needed. It's a bit like incremental (not differential) backups, or your system disk images. You can keep as many as you want, but you only need the last one to go back to the previous state. Restoring the init file is only needed if you want to go back to factory state (re calibration tables, not settings).

You import/export the settings in the import/export menu.
You import a .cbd file in the settings menu (import backup file *.cbd), in the lower right part of the screen, to the right of where you specify the path to save them.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: 3ll3d00d on October 21, 2019, 06:23:15 AM
Ok right, I see now (was looking in the import/export page as opposed to the settings page). Thanks. Is there any way to do a complete snapshot including settings? I guess I can write a script to do but would be convenient if that already exists somewhere already.

I am using a spyderx and an i1pro which seems to give excellent results with gamma 2.2 but measurably worse tracking at the low end (below 30%) with gamma 2.4 when verified with an i1d3 (corrected by the i1pro). My room is not bat cave but is dark (matt dark walls and ceiling, dark carpet). This is for rec709, iris at -10, low lamp for about 60nits.
The 2.2 runs is basically bang on throughout the range.

Any ideas on why this is the case or what data might help diagnose? For example, is it just the meter not being up to the job?


Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 21, 2019, 06:33:19 AM
Ok right, I see now (was looking in the import/export page as opposed to the settings page). Thanks. Is there any way to do a complete snapshot including settings? I guess I can write a script to do but would be convenient if that already exists somewhere already.

I am using a spyderx and an i1pro which seems to give excellent results with gamma 2.2 but measurably worse tracking at the low end (below 30%) with gamma 2.4 when verified with an i1d3 (corrected by the i1pro). My room is not bat cave but is dark (matt dark walls and ceiling, dark carpet). This is for rec709, iris at -10, low lamp for about 60nits.
The 2.2 runs is basically bang on throughout the range.

Any ideas on why this is the case or what data might help diagnose? For example, is it just the meter not being up to the job?
No way that I know of to do a complete export (calibration tables + settings).

Did you use the Spyder X for gamma only and the i1pro for color only? Both are up to their respective job, but neither is up to both jobs.

There shouldn't be any difference between gamma 2.2 and gamma 2.4, it's the same calibration. Provided you did a gamma only with the Spyder X and a color only with the i1pro.

I'm assuming you're looking at power 2.4 and not BT1886, as the i1d3 isn't able to read black so shouldn't be used for BT1886 calibration (unless a black reading is entered manually).

If you still have issues, please provide the logs screenshots for the Autocal with a 2.2 target after a gamma calibration with the Spyder X, and the gamut/color temp logs after a color calibration with the i1pro.

Of course, check that all your gamma settings and color temp settings are reset (preferably before calibration so the logs are readable). It can be useful to rest both color temp and gamma settings (not only entering zero values, select "reset to default" for each, just in case some values are saved somewhere.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 21, 2019, 10:48:04 AM
No, my DCI red is slightly undersaturated, as can be seen on all the screenshots posted in the basic / advanced sections.
I meant after the bad Color autocal. doesn't your spyder x (or software) tend to underestimate red?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: 3ll3d00d on October 21, 2019, 11:04:48 AM
yes that's correct, spyder for gamma and i1pro for colour & power 2.4 rather than bt.1886.

I'll do another run, see if it improves (and will share the results here if not)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: den110 on October 21, 2019, 11:13:15 AM
@den110: I found an old procedure for a f/w update (older model X30) where JVC gave advice for direct connection. It's in on page 3, section 2. LAN Connection settings. Of course ignore everything else as it doesn't apply to our 4K models.

By the way make sure you're using a straight cable, you can't use a crossover cable for direct LAN connection.

I'd look at the IP address of the PC/Laptop first, and select a different IP address in the same range with the same subnet mask. It should work with the right cable.

I assume you'd like a direct connection with a laptop to be physically closer to the PJ if the PJ is located far away from the router, but if you can go through a router it's preferable and easier.

One thing I do when I need to be closer to the meters is I use Remote Desktop to control my laptop from an iPad. It works great and allows you to be mobile, while still having the calibrating PC/laptop connected to the router.

Hi Manni,  so I found out what I was doing wrong.  This is the procedure to connect directly to pj:

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 21, 2019, 12:44:21 PM
Hi Manni,  so I found out what I was doing wrong.  This is the procedure to connect directly to pj:
  • plug ethernet cable into pj and laptop (I used a usb c to ethernet port adapter)
  • find out ip address:  go to cmd prompt and type in ipconfig.  I got IPv4 address as: 169.254.182.10 and subnet mask as: 255.255.0.0 and default gateway as: 192.168.1.1 per my ethernet adapter
  • go into pj's network menu and enter above values except change the IPv4 address by one number - I chose 11 for the last 2 values
  • then enter the IPv4 values - 169.254.182.11 into autocal software
  • presto!  connection!
Yes, that's what I was suggesting in my last post :)
Glad it worked for you. By the way, you don't need a DOS command to figure out the IP address, it's in the network adapter details in the control panel (network and sharing centre).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 21, 2019, 12:49:37 PM
I meant after the bad Color autocal. doesn't your spyder x (or software) tend to underestimate red?
We'll see that when I check the Spyder X with the next beta of Calman. I can't remember.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jmonier on October 21, 2019, 01:10:58 PM
I've been unable to make the JVC Autocal recognize the SpyderX on Windows 7.  It works fine on Win 10 and the Datacolor program recognizes it on Win 7.  Has anyone been able to make it work on Win 7?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Flavio61 on October 21, 2019, 02:52:34 PM
For me following these (https://support.datacolor.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/1846/0/spyderx-driver-on-windows-7-may-not-be-installed-properly) instructions all works fine in Win7.

Follow this step:

1) Install the Datacolor Software
2) Follow the instructions on the link above
3) Uninstall Datacolor Software
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jmonier on October 21, 2019, 04:19:43 PM
Thanks.  Unfortunately, that procedure did not work for me, but I now know that it's probably a problem with my computer and I can continue to investigate.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 21, 2019, 04:49:23 PM
Thanks.  Unfortunately, that procedure did not work for me, but I now know that it's probably a problem with my computer and I can continue to investigate.
Did you update your Win 7 to the latest service pack? I think it's a requirement for the Spyder X driver.

There is also the option of upgrading to Windows 10... Good luck!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: alamagar on October 21, 2019, 10:40:19 PM
My Spyder X driver is different (and dated from 2006!) but it works, weirdly. I'm on Win 10 Pro x64 build 1903.

However my Spyder 5 driver doesn't show up, and Autocal V11 still works, so go figure. [EDIT: see jmonier's post below, and let us know your OS version)]

I would suggest to:

  • Uninstall the Spyder X driver
  • Disconnect the Spyder X
  • Uninstall the Datacolor software (if not already done)
  • Reboot
  • Install the Datacolor software
  • When asked, connect the Spyder X
  • Once the driver is loaded, check it's the same as mine
  • Uninstall the Datacolor software
  • Reboot
  • Try the Autocal V12

Hopefully this will install the correct driver and you'll be on your way.
Hi,
I solved finally...using another laptop. The only differences between the laptops and the process are:

So, one of the 2 reasons is causing the problem. I am prone to think that installing datacolor sotware for spyderX, does something in the system preventing Autocal to detect the spyderX, even you unistall the software later.

And because the driver is automatically installed by windows 10 when you connect the spyderX, my advice is: DO NOT INSTALL DATACOLOR SOFTWARE. You do not need it and may cause problems with Autocal detecting the spyderX.

Thanks Manni for your help.
Now, let's calibrate.

Mario.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 22, 2019, 01:08:06 AM
Hi,
I solved finally...using another laptop. The only differences between the laptops and the process are:
  • The windows version. Both Windows 10 64 bit. Laptop working: version 1803. Laptop not working: 14xx.
  • In the laptop working, I never installed the datacolor software. In the previous one I first installed the software and then trying uninstalling or disabling it and never worked.

So, one of the 2 reasons is causing the problem. I am prone to think that installing datacolor sotware for spyderX, does something in the system preventing Autocal to detect the spyderX, even you unistall the software later.

And because the driver is automatically installed by windows 10 when you connect the spyderX, my advice is: DO NOT INSTALL DATACOLOR SOFTWARE. You do not need it and may cause problems with Autocal detecting the spyderX.

Thanks Manni for your help.
Now, let's calibrate.

Mario.
Hi Mario,

Glad to hear it's working now. :)

No that can't be the reason, because I did install/uninstall the Datacolor software, and that didn't prevent the Windows driver from being found/loaded.

I think it's more likely the fact that you were using a very old Windows build.

Anyway it's good to know that we don't need to install/uninstall the Datacolor software on windows 8/10 the way we did on Windows 7. I'll update the instructions when I find a minute, but I don't think they hurt.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jj-34 on October 22, 2019, 01:46:10 AM
Hi Manni and everybody else, I just found and registered to this forum now also ..... 8)

I confirm that it's not necessary to install Datacolor to use the SpyderX only for Autocal, I'd say it's even adviseable not too ( avoid having to disable autostart of Datacolor's background task ).

JJ.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 22, 2019, 02:06:53 AM
Hi Manni and everybody else, I just found and registered to this forum now also ..... 8)

I confirm that it's not necessary to install Datacolor to use the SpyderX only for Autocal, I'd say it's even adviseable not too ( avoid having to disable autostart of Datacolor's background task ).

JJ.
Hi JJ, welcome!

There is no need to disable the background task if you uninstall the software as recommended in the basic section (which I recommend you read first).

I'll update the instructions when I find the time, but they don't hurt if you follow them :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: LeFric on October 22, 2019, 05:49:18 AM

I'm disappointed with my i1Pro2 ... With CalMAN, LightSpace and ChromaPure it works correctly, but with AutoCAL it doesn't!
He tells me again and again "Can not detect the sensor. Check again."
Does it happen to any more? What solution do you have?


Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 22, 2019, 06:25:11 AM
I'm disappointed with my i1Pro2 ... With CalMAN, LightSpace and ChromaPure it works correctly, but with AutoCAL it doesn't!
He tells me again and again "Can not detect the sensor. Check again."
Does it happen to any more? What solution do you have?
Please read the basic section and the FAQ before posting a question, as explained in the first post.

The i1pro2 needs to be initialized before each autocal (just as you need to in Calman, Lightspace and Chromapure). This is explained in the basic section, in the preparation post.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: LeFric on October 22, 2019, 01:52:17 PM
Please read the basic section and the FAQ before posting a question, as explained in the first post.

The i1pro2 needs to be initialized before each autocal (just as you need to in Calman, Lightspace and Chromapure). This is explained in the basic section, in the preparation post.

"Meter(s) connection and positioning


He had followed her to the letter and I can't. The other programs do NOT need you to press the i1Pro2 key ...

I am blocked!!!!!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 22, 2019, 02:42:04 PM
"Meter(s) connection and positioning
  • To connect the meters, make sure that the Spyder5 (recommended for gamma calibration) has its cover off (it splits in two and you have to take the cap off to reveal the lens, that has to face the projector). If you're using the i1pro2 (recommended for color calibration), make sure that it lies on its calibration plate when you select it, and immediately press the calibration button on the i1pro2 in order to start a white calibration. If you fail to do so, the software will report after a few seconds that it can't find the meter."


He had followed her to the letter and I can't. The other programs do NOT need you to press the i1Pro2 key ...

I am blocked!!!!!
It is true that only Calman supports the physical button on the i1pro2, but they all require you to initialize the i1pro2 by putting it on its plate and either pressing the button on the i1pro2 (Calman) or by pressing a button to initialize the meter (Lightspace, etc). It's exactly the same here, except that the Autocal supports the i1pro2 physical button like Calman, and doesn't provide clear instructions regarding what to do.

As soon as you select the i1pro2 in the JVC Autocal, you have to press the button on the ip1ro2 (while it's on its plate), and keep it pressed for a few seconds. It should then display the pattern and the meter positioning frame (which doesn't work with the i1pro2, simply place it around 2 ft from the screen, pointing up towards the centre).

If you wait too long before selecting the i1pro2 , or if you don't keep the button pressed long enough, the i1pro2 will NOT be detected by the JVVC Autocal.

If that doesn't happen I have no idea why.

Maybe someone else can explain it better than I do.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: 3ll3d00d on October 22, 2019, 03:37:33 PM
I tried again, same setup as before using a spyderx and i1pro with gamma 2.4, iris -10 and reset the various settings before starting

I've attached pics from the jvc app and then I ran a quick gamma check in HCFR which shows an actual gamma of 2.5 and it seems too much red.

Curiously the same quick gamma check for the DCI-P3 run also shows gamma 0.1 too high at approx 2.3 albeit that one has a much tighter RGB balance (makes me think I'm doing something wrong when verifying though I don't know what)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: 3ll3d00d on October 22, 2019, 04:35:54 PM
I had a hunch about the light levels so I bumped the iris to -9 from -10 and did another cal, forgot to take pics of the jvc log unfortunately but HCFR now reports something much closer to target. I'm not sure if this is common behaviour but the steps on the iris do seem v large, -10 to -9 adds about 18nits in my case and the resulting calibration seems more stable too.

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 22, 2019, 04:56:51 PM
Significant brightness differences between some iris steps is normal.
Gamma should be flat after autocal, but the power isn't exact. You often have to select 2.3 or 2.5 to get 2.4. That's normal.
You should reset all your user settings and select a target of 2.2 during the autocal. That way the log will show more clearly if the autocal goes well or not, at least according to the Spyder X / Autocal. If you select any other target, the post cal line in the log isn't flat so there is no way to know how close you are. It doesn't make a significant difference if you select 2.4 afterwards, even less if you use a 3D LUT on top. If any user settings are applied (gamma, color temp), they are ignored during the autocal but enabled during the log, so it can also cause some head scratching.
Overall it doesn't look like you're doing too bad. Make sure you've cleared all your user settings. Do a reset to factory defaults if necessary to be sure. 

As long as you run a gamma autocal with spyder X and an color autocal with the i1pro at the filter/lamp/iris setting you are using for each calibration and your user settings are reset, you should be fairly close.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 22, 2019, 06:04:00 PM
I have an i1Pro2 (actually it's an OEM EFI ES-2000) but I follwed Manni's instructions to the T and the autocal software works.

One thing that's important is that you need to have the 2006 driver for the i1Pro2 installed, not the 2009 one. If you let Windows install the driver automatically then it installed the incorrect 2009 one.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 22, 2019, 11:45:46 PM
Significant brightness differences between some iris steps is normal.
Gamma should be flat after autocal, but the power isn't exact. You often have to select 2.3 or 2.5 to get 2.4. That's normal.
You should reset all your user settings and select a target of 2.2 during the autocal. That way the log will show more clearly if the autocal goes well or not, at least according to the Spyder X / Autocal. If you select any other target, the post cal line in the log isn't flat so there is no way to know how close you are. It doesn't make a significant difference if you select 2.4 afterwards, even less if you use a 3D LUT on top. If any user settings are applied (gamma, color temp), they are ignored during the autocal but enabled during the log, so it can also cause some head scratching.
Overall it doesn't look like you're doing too bad. Make sure you've cleared all your user settings. Do a reset to factory defaults if necessary to be sure.

As long as you run a gamma autocal with spyder X and an color autocal with the i1pro at the filter/lamp/iris setting you are using for each calibration and your user settings are reset, you should be fairly close.
To be honest a dE greater than 4 using an i1pro is not a good result imho. The behavior is not that different than what is happening with spyder x: an error progressively increasing. Less impacting but still there. Still oversaturated red. I think the color patterns autocal is using are incorrect in some cases.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: 3ll3d00d on October 23, 2019, 01:13:51 AM
Significant brightness differences between some iris steps is normal.
Gamma should be flat after autocal, but the power isn't exact. You often have to select 2.3 or 2.5 to get 2.4. That's normal.
You should reset all your user settings and select a target of 2.2 during the autocal. That way the log will show more clearly if the autocal goes well or not, at least according to the Spyder X / Autocal. If you select any other target, the post cal line in the log isn't flat so there is no way to know how close you are. It doesn't make a significant difference if you select 2.4 afterwards, even less if you use a 3D LUT on top. If any user settings are applied (gamma, color temp), they are ignored during the autocal but enabled during the log, so it can also cause some head scratching.
Overall it doesn't look like you're doing too bad. Make sure you've cleared all your user settings. Do a reset to factory defaults if necessary to be sure.

As long as you run a gamma autocal with spyder X and an color autocal with the i1pro at the filter/lamp/iris setting you are using for each calibration and your user settings are reset, you should be fairly close.
Previous runs with 2.2 show a flat line after autocal. I'll stick to 2.2 in future and change it afterwards instead. 

It seems that changing just the iris by 1 position makes an unexpectedly (to me) large difference.

At -10, it produces much too high gamma (>2.5) and a colour temperature which seems to be aiming at a target of around 6000K. It is consistent but seems quite wrong so dE is frequently >4.

Whereas at -9, gamma comes out pretty much on target (hovers around 2.42) and there is a consistent colour temp at around 6400k with an average dE ~0.5 and a max of <1 as measured by a quick verification chart in displaycal. 


Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 23, 2019, 01:20:40 AM
Previous runs with 2.2 show a flat line after autocal. I'll stick to 2.2 in future and change it afterwards instead.

It seems that changing just the iris by 1 position makes an unexpectedly (to me) large difference.

At -10, it produces much too high gamma (>2.5) and a colour temperature which seems to be aiming at a target of around 6000K. It is consistent but seems quite wrong so dE is frequently >4.

Whereas at -9, gamma comes out pretty much on target (hovers around 2.42) and there is a consistent colour temp at around 6400k with an average dE ~0.5 and a max of <1 as measured by a quick verification chart in displaycal.
Provided you select the iris setting before running the color only autocal with the i1pro and are not changing anything else (i.e. are not selecting a different picture mode or anything, just keep the settings used for the autocal and NOT changing the iris setting afterwards) this doesn't make much sense. Please do a reset to factory settings with the remote and try again. If this still happens, then I have no idea why. I'll try to reproduce here but I had zero issues with the i1pro and Autocal V12 here in my last brief calibration session. I calibrated iris open for HDR and -12 for SDR, with no issue. I'll post screenshots next month.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 23, 2019, 01:38:52 AM
I experienced something similar for two different position of the iris. I used Spyder X only though.
I calibrated gamma + color with low lamp, filter on, iris = -6 and I got a very bad color temperature with a dE > 6. I saw in the log that it read a very poor red and tried to fix it but actually it was almost good and it made it worst (and decreased the luminance trying to overfix).
I calibrated then color only with combination low lamp, filter on, iris = -4 and it applied almost no change to the gamut! I was expecting same behavior: reading poor red and trying to fix it. First thing I though is that the first calibration with iris = -6 affected also iris = -4. But that should not be the case, as the different aperture should lead to a different calibration.
So even though the effects are different, still I have the feeling that the software is doing something wrong in specific conditions. I believe that the patterns used are wrong.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 23, 2019, 01:59:24 AM
I experienced something similar for two different position of the iris. I used Spyder X only though.
I calibrated gamma + color with low lamp, filter on, iris = -6 and I got a very bad color temperature with a dE > 6. I saw in the log that it read a very poor red and tried to fix it but actually it was almost good and it made it worst (and decreased the luminance trying to overfix).
I calibrated then color only with combination low lamp, filter on, iris = -4 and it applied almost no change to the gamut! I was expecting same behavior: reading poor red and trying to fix it. First thing I though is that the first calibration with iris = -6 affected also iris = -4. But that should not be the case, as the different aperture should lead to a different calibration.
So even though the effects are different, still I have the feeling that the software is doing something wrong in specific conditions. I believe that the patterns used are wrong.
You can't use the Spyder X for color, you're more likely to make things worse than better, we've already said there is possibly a bug in V12 regarding the Spyder X and color calibration, so I have no idea why we're discussing this.

If the patterns were wrong, they would be wrong for everyone, all the time, not just in some cases. They might be wrong for the Spyder X when doing color. They are not wrong for the i1pro2. We'll find out when someone does some tests with the Spyder X compared to another meter. I've already said that I will do it, but not until next month.

The ranges might be different though. That's why I always calibrate the iris settings that I actually use, and advise others to do so. Calibrating ranges is never 100% accurate.

Please stop posting about the Spyder X color calibration. We know it doesn't work as intended. Just use it for gamma and nothing else until we know more.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: 3ll3d00d on October 23, 2019, 02:07:44 AM
Provided you select the iris setting before running the color only autocal with the i1pro and are not changing anything else (i.e. are not selecting a different picture mode or anything, just keep the settings used for the autocal and NOT changing the iris setting afterwards) this doesn't make much sense. Please do a reset to factory settings with the remote and try again. 
that's correct, no other settings changed except the iris and then gamma only with the spyder followed by colour only with the i1pro.

I'll repeat the same process after a factory reset next time I get time to do so.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 23, 2019, 02:27:50 AM
Just to say that I've asked HDFury to implement the Frame Adapt HDR picture mode in the JVC Macro implementation of the Vertex/Maestro.

I've tested a f/w this morning and it works great.

Here is the command that is implemented for direct switch to Frame Adapt HDR: \x21\x89\x01\x52\x43\x37\x33\x45\x43\x0A

So watch out for a new f/w soon implementing this new mode.

Thanks to Mike Garrett for providing the info from JVC and to HDFury for implementing it so fast :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 23, 2019, 02:50:54 AM
You can't use the Spyder X for color, you're more likely to make things worse than better, we've already said there is possibly a bug in V12 regarding the Spyder X and color calibration, so I have no idea why we're discussing this.

If the patterns were wrong, they would be wrong for everyone, all the time, not just in some cases. They might be wrong for the Spyder X when doing color. They are not wrong for the i1pro2. We'll find out when someone does some tests with the Spyder X compared to another meter. I've already said that I will do it, but not until next month.

The ranges might be different though. That's why I always calibrate the iris settings that I actually use, and advise others to do so. Calibrating ranges is never 100% accurate.

Please stop posting about the Spyder X color calibration. We know it doesn't work as intended. Just use it for gamma and nothing else until we know more.
I don't understand your tone. I was just trying to provide more elements to figure out together why the results are so wrong. I believed this was a forum to exchange our experience with the goal of enriching our knowledge and help other people that are trying to use the tool.
I know that Spyder X is not precise for color, but:
Don't you think can be valuable to investigate a little bit more? I will stop posting then and do my test alone, without exchanging what I may discover. Just wait for a months your tests without having the opportunity to talk. But this sounds really weird to me
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 23, 2019, 03:21:35 AM
I don't understand your tone. I was just trying to provide more elements to figure out together why the results are so wrong. I believed this was a forum to exchange our experience with the goal of enriching our knowledge and help other people that are trying to use the tool.
I know that Spyder X is not precise for color, but:
  • it cannot be that bad as the results we are getting
  • most of people simply can't afford an i1pro2
  • It has been said that Spyder X is more accurate than Spyder 5 and I can ensure that a lot of people bought it to calibrate color.
  • apparently there are some combinations where it seems to work correctly.
  • we have seen strange behavior also with an i1pro2 few posts above, so it can still be related to the software/patterns. How can you exclude it?
Don't you think can be valuable to investigate a little bit more? I will stop posting then and do my test alone, without exchanging what I may discover. Just wait for a months your tests without having the opportunity to talk. But this sounds really weird to me
I'm not stopping anyone from doing any tests, but you won't be able to do any of these tests if you only have a Spyder X.

I don't see the point of speculating, but any useful info is more than welcome, especially if someone wants to do tests between a Spyder X and a reference meter (or near reference meter like an i1pro) in another software, which is what we need to figure out if the difference comes from the meter or the software. Until someone does that, I don't think anything else really matters.

Your last post simply doesn't add any useful data. It makes assumptions when what we need is facts.

So feel free to post useful data, but saying things like "I think there is something wrong" doesn't help, when we've already established there was something wrong.

Again, in my experience, the Spyder X cannot be used for color autocal yet, and the i1pro2 works fine in V12.

I've only done brief tests, I'll do more next month (not in a month).

In the meantime, it's a public forum, do whatever you like. :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 23, 2019, 04:08:16 AM
I'm not stopping anyone from doing any tests, but you won't be able to do any of these tests if you only have a Spyder X.

I don't see the point of speculating, but any useful info is more than welcome, especially if someone wants to do tests between a Spyder X and a reference meter (or near reference meter like an i1pro) in another software, which is what we need to figure out if the difference comes from the meter or the software. Until someone does that, I don't think anything else really matters.

Your last post simply doesn't add any useful data. It makes assumptions when what we need is facts.

So feel free to post useful data, but saying things like "I think there is something wrong" doesn't help, when we've already established there was something wrong.

Again, in my experience, the Spyder X cannot be used for color autocal yet, and the i1pro2 works fine in V12.

I've only done brief tests, I'll do more next month (not in a month).

In the meantime, it's a public forum, do whatever you like. :)
Well, you said: Please stop posting about the Spyder X color calibration...
However I own a ColorMunki and I'm checking results of Autocal with an i1d3 profiled with the ColorMunki within Calman. Otherwise how I could say that the calibration didn't work? How could I estimate the excess of red without a term of comparison? So after all there is something to say I believe... Let judge the others if I add value
;)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 23, 2019, 04:53:01 AM
Well, you said: Please stop posting about the Spyder X color calibration...
However I own a ColorMunki and I'm checking results of Autocal with an i1d3 profiled with the ColorMunki within Calman. Otherwise how I could say that the calibration didn't work? How could I estimate the excess of red without a term of comparison? So after all there is something to say I believe... Let judge the others if I add value
;)
We need to compare the reading of the Spyder X with the reading of a reference meter in a software that supports both. At the moment, Calman doesn't, which is one of the reasons why I'm waiting because I don't have the time to get into Lightspace to do this at the moment.

I don't consider an i1d3 profiled to a Colormunki to be reference or near reference, in fact you're just as likely to make the i1d3 worse rather than more accurate profiling it to a colormunki. I wouldn't use my i1pro2 to profile an i1d3 as there is no way to know which is more accurate on LCOS. But even an i1d3, profiled or not to a colormunki, that would be better than nothing.

Comparing the reading of the Spyder X in the autocal with the reading of another meter in another software is pointless, because we've already established that the Autocal is most likely doing something wrong with the Spyder X regarding color calibration. Until we can confirm this by using the same software to check if the meter is wrong or not and provide that information to JVC, I really don't see the value of your data.

I'm not going to stop you from posting whatever you want to post, but I won't discuss this further until you actually provide some useful info (in my opinion, of course everyone is free to make their own assessment).

Again, it's a free forum. :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on October 23, 2019, 01:36:26 PM
It is true that only Calman supports the physical button on the i1pro2, but they all require you to initialize the i1pro2 by putting it on its plate and either pressing the button on the i1pro2 (Calman) or by pressing a button to initialize the meter (Lightspace, etc). It's exactly the same here, except that the Autocal supports the i1pro2 physical button like Calman, and doesn't provide clear instructions regarding what to do.

As soon as you select the i1pro2 in the JVC Autocal, you have to press the button on the ip1ro2 (while it's on its plate), and keep it pressed for a few seconds. It should then display the pattern and the meter positioning frame (which doesn't work with the i1pro2, simply place it around 2 ft from the screen, pointing up towards the centre).

If you wait too long before selecting the i1pro2 , or if you don't keep the button pressed long enough, the i1pro2 will NOT be detected by the JVVC Autocal.

If that doesn't happen I have no idea why.

Maybe someone else can explain it better than I do.
I find this odd.

Autocal finds and uses my i1 Pro 2 perfectly well without me ever touching it's button whatsoever.

I do leave it lying on the white calibration plate when I select the meter in autocal, and then I remove it shortly after selecting the meter while autocal is on the meter placement screen.

As soon as I click the meter in Autocal, the light on the back of the i1 Pro 2 lights up and goes off (which indicates it's taking a reading) then lights back up again as it tries to read the screen during meter placement.

Also, a i1 Pro 2 should be more accurate than an i1D3.  There is nothing special about LCoS for an i1 Pro 2 to read.  

Spectrometers only care about the spectral bands of the light source and in the case of JVC NX, that is UHP mercury lamp which does not have really narrow spectral bands.  Whether the UHP lamp light goes through 3LCD or bounces off DLP or LCoS doesn't make its spectral bands narrower, so the i1 Pro 2 at 10nm bands should be plenty sufficient to get an accurate reading of the color.  You could further take the readings with DisplayCAL or HCFR as well which will read in 3.3nm bands and be slightly more detailed as well with narrower spectral light sources.  Tests with high end Jeti 5nm spectrometers shows that reading the i1 Pro 2 in 3.3nm mode does indeed improve its accuracy.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: LeFric on October 23, 2019, 03:41:19 PM
It is true that only Calman supports the physical button on the i1pro2, but they all require you to initialize the i1pro2 by putting it on its plate and either pressing the button on the i1pro2 (Calman) or by pressing a button to initialize the meter (Lightspace, etc). It's exactly the same here, except that the Autocal supports the i1pro2 physical button like Calman, and doesn't provide clear instructions regarding what to do.

As soon as you select the i1pro2 in the JVC Autocal, you have to press the button on the ip1ro2 (while it's on its plate), and keep it pressed for a few seconds. It should then display the pattern and the meter positioning frame (which doesn't work with the i1pro2, simply place it around 2 ft from the screen, pointing up towards the centre).

If you wait too long before selecting the i1pro2 , or if you don't keep the button pressed long enough, the i1pro2 will NOT be detected by the JVVC Autocal.

If that doesn't happen I have no idea why.

Maybe someone else can explain it better than I do.

I have passed the i1Diagnostics 4 and it gives me the following error, but I already say that with the rest of the programs it works correctly ...  Is that error correct?

(https://i.imgur.com/wMFbxfl.jpg)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: LeFric on October 23, 2019, 04:04:23 PM
Below I show you the profiling that I have done to my SpyderX Pro vs i1Pro2.


(https://i.imgur.com/0RqeBxc.jpg)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 23, 2019, 11:23:18 PM
Below I show you the profiling that I have done to my SpyderX Pro vs i1Pro2.


(https://i.imgur.com/0RqeBxc.jpg)
Spyder x does not look that bad.
what software are you using to profile? Unfortunately no profiling is possible with Autocal. Workaround is creating custom color profile with Chad method, not applicable in combination with DTM though. Unless someone doesn’t find a different workaround. If only they allowed entering a correction matrix...
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 23, 2019, 11:59:23 PM
I have passed the i1Diagnostics 4 and it gives me the following error, but I already say that with the rest of the programs it works correctly ...  Is that error correct?

(https://i.imgur.com/wMFbxfl.jpg)
Looks like there might be something wrong with your i1pro2, but if it works with other software it should work with the Autocal too. Your Spyder X looks fairly close to it, at least for white.

Are you using the matching calibration plate that came with your i1pro2 when you initialize it?

If it fails the diags you might have to send it to xrite for a recertification.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 24, 2019, 12:22:56 AM
I find this odd.

Autocal finds and uses my i1 Pro 2 perfectly well without me ever touching it's button whatsoever.

I do leave it lying on the white calibration plate when I select the meter in autocal, and then I remove it shortly after selecting the meter while autocal is on the meter placement screen.

As soon as I click the meter in Autocal, the light on the back of the i1 Pro 2 lights up and goes off (which indicates it's taking a reading) then lights back up again as it tries to read the screen during meter placement.

Also, a i1 Pro 2 should be more accurate than an i1D3.  There is nothing special about LCoS for an i1 Pro 2 to read. 

Spectrometers only care about the spectral bands of the light source and in the case of JVC NX, that is UHP mercury lamp which does not have really narrow spectral bands.  Whether the UHP lamp light goes through 3LCD or bounces off DLP or LCoS doesn't make its spectral bands narrower, so the i1 Pro 2 at 10nm bands should be plenty sufficient to get an accurate reading of the color.  You could further take the readings with DisplayCAL or HCFR as well which will read in 3.3nm bands and be slightly more detailed as well with narrower spectral light sources.  Tests with high end Jeti 5nm spectrometers shows that reading the i1 Pro 2 in 3.3nm mode does indeed improve its accuracy.
Was it always the case that you didn't need to press the button? With V11 my i1pro2 wasn't detected by the Autocal until I pressed the button during init, and I think Bobof's behaves the same. Maybe they have improved this with V12, I'll try to do nothing next time and see if it detects it.

You are misreading me. I was only mentioning LCOS because that's the only technology I tried the i1d3 with. I am not ruling out that an i1pro2 or a Colormunki could improve things on a different technology, that's all. I tried three different i1d3, I rejected them all because of how bad they were in low light and their inability to read black, but they were very consistent and too close to the i1pro2 to know whether profiling them to it would make them more accurate or not, given that I have no idea how far away from reference my i1pro2 is to start with. I expect it to be accurate given the results I get with it, but I have no way to quantify its accuracy.

Again, the i1pro2 is not a reference meter, and neither is the Colormunki. Profiling a colorimeter to a non-reference spectro only makes sense if it's significantly off on a given technology, like my Discus, which I wouldn't be able to use on its own. Otherwise you're only making the meter closer to the spectro, but not necessarily closer to reference, depending on the direction of the errors of the respective meters.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 24, 2019, 12:24:28 AM
EVERYONE
I have very little time at the moment, so please forgive me if I stop replying to all the posts, it's taking too much of my time. I'll only reply to questions that are not already answered in the basic/advanced section or in the FAQ, and I won't reply to statements/comments, even if they are inaccurate/misleading. There are many knowledgeable people participating to this thread, so I'm sure they will brilliantly fill this gap. :)



Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on October 24, 2019, 06:54:00 AM
Was it always the case that you didn't need to press the button? With V11 my i1pro2 wasn't detected by the Autocal until I pressed the button during init, and I think Bobof's behaves the same. Maybe they have improved this with V12, I'll try to do nothing next time and see if it detects it.

I have not tried v12 actually.

v11 and also v10 that I used for an RS540 both did not need me to press the button at any time.

I actually have 2 different i1 Pro 2 with me at the moment and both work with autocal v11 without ever pressing the button.

I am not really sure why this would be, but it is.

I am using the 2006 driver from the X-Rite website:  
https://www.xrite.com/service-support/downloads/i/i1drivers_32_64_bit_win2000_xp_vista (https://www.xrite.com/service-support/downloads/i/i1drivers_32_64_bit_win2000_xp_vista)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 24, 2019, 07:06:27 AM
I have not tried v12 actually.

v11 and also v10 that I used for an RS540 both did not need me to press the button at any time.

I actually have 2 different i1 Pro 2 with me at the moment and both work with autocal v11 without ever pressing the button.

I am not really sure why this would be, but it is.

I am using the 2006 driver from the X-Rite website: 
https://www.xrite.com/service-support/downloads/i/i1drivers_32_64_bit_win2000_xp_vista (https://www.xrite.com/service-support/downloads/i/i1drivers_32_64_bit_win2000_xp_vista)
Thanks, it looks like windows is loading the 2009 driver for my i1pro2, that might be a reason.
I'll try this 2006 driver in my next session and I'll report back next month.

LeFric: it might be worth it to try this driver version, it might solve your issues if your current drivers is the 2009 version like mine.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on October 24, 2019, 07:22:14 AM
Thanks, it looks like windows is loading the 2009 driver for my i1pro2, that might be a reason.
I'll try this 2006 driver in my next session and I'll report back next month.

LeFric: it might be worth it to try this driver version, it might solve your issues if your current drivers is the 2009 version like mine.
Where do you even get a 2009 driver?

I heard it mentioned but I was not able to find it.

My Windows 10 needed me to install a driver to get the "eye-one" to work at all.  I can see it as "eye-one" with no driver loaded though in device manager.

I also bounce back and forth between that driver from the X-Rite website which I have to use for autocal, and ArgyllCMS which I use for when I use my i1 Pro 2 with DisplayCAL and HCFR.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 24, 2019, 07:33:32 AM
Where do you even get a 2009 driver?

I heard it mentioned but I was not able to find it.

My Windows 10 needed me to install a driver to get the "eye-one" to work at all.  I can see it as "eye-one" with no driver loaded though in device manager.

I also bounce back and forth between that driver from the X-Rite website which I have to use for autocal, and ArgyllCMS which I use for when I use my i1 Pro 2 with DisplayCAL and HCFR.
The 2009 driver was loaded by default, possibly because Calman or Lightspace installed/updated it, as they use the generic OS driver.

One of the reasons why I don't use DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS (the main one being that it doesn't support my Discus) is because I don't want to have to jungle between drivers every time I change software. The JVC Autocal, Calman and Lightspace all use the same OS driver, or don't ask me to uninstall it whenever I try to use them. Just too much hassle.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 24, 2019, 09:14:19 AM
The f/w for the Maestro with the Frame Adapt HDR picture mode added to the JVC Macro is available here https://www.hdfury.com/product/maestro/ (https://www.hdfury.com/product/maestro/). The f/w for the Vertex is available here (https://www.hdfury.com/product/4k-vertex2-18gbps/). Click on the download tab for both.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jj-34 on October 24, 2019, 09:29:20 AM
Just managed to get an almost new EFI ES-2000, should be in begin next week.
So then I will have Spyder 5, Spyder X, I1 display Pro, Efi ES-2000, Colormunki Photo, DTP94 (x 2) ..... anything else ?
Oh yes wait there's also a Datacolor spectro #1005 on a shelf somewhere collecting dust :o 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on October 24, 2019, 04:04:39 PM
Don't have the time to calibrate, but I tried the 2006 driver and the i1pro2 is detected after a few secs simply laying on the plate, no need to press the button.

@LeFric, you might want to try this.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: den110 on October 24, 2019, 07:32:56 PM
Thanks Manni,

That is what I will do.

BTW if I understand your previous DTM posts correctly its probably worth doing three Picture modes while I have all the equipment out. With User 3 being done in case the DTM algo is actually tone mapping to P3

User1 - SDR709 - Color Profile 709, 6500K, 2.4, low lamp, iris -6 (~60 nits)
User2 - HDR2020 - Color Profile BT2020, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0
User3 - HDR-P3 - Color Profile DCI, HDR10, HDR(PQ), high lamp, iris -0

Am I understanding your post correctly?


Thanks again
So how did this picture modes work out?  I was gonna do User 1 to cover SDR (HD Xfinity broadcasts, regular blu rays), and User 2 (UHD Blu Rays/Netflix 4k streaming to use DTM.)  Will both these profiles cover what I need?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 24, 2019, 10:41:27 PM
Yes, they will.
Specifically, I have already clarified that with autocal you are NOT calibrating the color mode; what really matters is the combination of lamp, iris and color filter (only in case of N7 and N9) and the color profile is not relevant. For this reason the 3rd calibration is not needed and would instead overwrite the 2nd one.
Also, 3rd mode can only be used if you have a video processor that outputs DCI color space. But even if used, it would benefit of the 2nd calibration.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: LeFric on October 25, 2019, 08:02:32 AM
Can the Spyder5 Express be used with any version of AutoCAL that supports it?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jj-34 on October 25, 2019, 09:08:44 AM
Can the Spyder5 Express be used with any version of AutoCAL that supports it?
Yes, only difference with the Pro and Elite is that the Spyder5 Express lacks the environment sensor.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 26, 2019, 10:51:26 AM

Because of the poor color calibration with my Spyder, I restored the INIT file and auto-calibrated gamma only (while waiting for a used i1 display pro).
After the calibration I compared color measures using ColorMunki and Spyder on a common field: HCFR.
With SpyderX I did measures using two calibration matrices: General and Standard Led
I also attached a picture of the gamut logged by Autocal software itself.
As you can see, General is pretty distant from ColorMunki (that I think is quite accurate). And the gamut read by Autocal is very similar to the results achieved with General. There is an evident problem with the green. Standard Led setting seems more similar to the ColorMunki though.
This test confirms IMHO the inaccuracy of SpyderX when used with the "General" matrix, apparently the one that Autocal is using.
On the other hand I measured the gamma and it is simply perfect! And the color uncalibrated is not that bad after 300h.

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Killroy™ on October 26, 2019, 02:44:14 PM
Yes, only difference with the Pro and Elite is that the Spyder5 Express lacks the environment sensor.
The lack of environmental sensor is in the Spyder software not hardware. All three meters are identical in hardware. We tested an Express bought meter on a Mac that had the Elite software installed and it activated the sensor with no issues. That is why you can upgrade an Express bought meter to the Elite by just upgrading the software (key). And the best part is this...the software is also identical and just the features are "unlocked" when you purchase the upgrade "key".
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 26, 2019, 02:47:37 PM
The lack of environmental sensor is in the Spyder software not hardware. All three meters are identical in hardware. We tested an Express bought meter on a Mac that had the Elite software installed and it activated the sensor with no issues. That is why you can upgrade an Express bought meter to the Elite by just upgrading the software (key). And the best part is this...the software is also identical and just the features are "unlocked" when you purchase the upgrade "key".
Really?! I didn't know that. So does it work with the JVC software without any specific license?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Killroy™ on October 26, 2019, 03:01:43 PM
Really?! I didn't know that. So does it work with the JVC software without any specific license?
In theory it should. Autocal is using the driver that is the same on all three models so it should work. I never understood why Datacolor used the same driver and same software for all three models and used the key method to unlock features. This method also lends to easier hacking/cracking.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jj-34 on October 26, 2019, 03:25:11 PM
The lack of environmental sensor is in the Spyder software not hardware. All three meters are identical in hardware. We tested an Express bought meter on a Mac that had the Elite software installed and it activated the sensor with no issues. That is why you can upgrade an Express bought meter to the Elite by just upgrading the software (key). And the best part is this...the software is also identical and just the features are "unlocked" when you purchase the upgrade "key".
Very interesting, not having the express myself I did not realize that it's only the software that can unlock the environment capability.
Anybody tried the Autocal environment option with a true Spyder 5 Express puck ?  What about the driver ?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Killroy™ on October 26, 2019, 03:43:06 PM
Very interesting, not having the express myself I did not realize that it's only the software that can unlock the environment capability.
Anybody tried the Autocal environment option with a true Spyder 5 Express puck ?  What about the driver ?
Haven't tried it with Autocal since I have the Pro version, but in my old office we proved that the drivers are exactly the same for all three. They were interchangeable. And we even used Express meters on Macs that only had the Elite software installed. We began to buy Express meters used on ebay and then just paying for the upgrades to Elite (basically just a key) and we stocked our entire editing room for same price we would have paid for half of the meters. Granted it would have been a bit cheaper but we got one real bad Express meter so we had to replace it.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jj-34 on October 26, 2019, 04:01:44 PM
I am still puzzled as I read several times that the environment option of Autocal does not work with the spyder 5 express, if the puck and the driver are really the same then that should not be true, Autocal should be able to work totally. The unlocking can only be valid within the Datacolor software. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Killroy™ on October 26, 2019, 04:18:10 PM
I am still puzzled as I read several times that the environment option of Autocal does not work with the spyder 5 express, if the puck and the driver are really the same then that should not be true, Autocal should be able to work totally. The unlocking can only be valid within the Datacolor software.
Like I said, in theory...using Datacolor software there is no difference between the three in hardware or driver. It is only software. I have never been able to verify it since I kept my Pro version and had that installed. Now, maybe when you install the Datacolor software to install the driver there is a lock enabled to that feature. The only way to verify it would be to test it with a PC using Autocal after you installed a Pro/Elite version and then plugging in an Express meter. And then testing a different PC that only installed an Express meter and then plugging in a Pro/Elite meter and see if the feature is shut-down. If it works with an Express on a Pro/Elite install then there is no lock. But if the Pro/Elite does NOT work on an Express install then there is a driver/software lock at the time of install.

All I know is that on a PC/Mac when using only the Datacolor software the only difference is the key at the time of install or the key used at the time you upgrade up. We used more than a dozen Express meters on Elite keys when we upgraded them.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 27, 2019, 12:57:09 AM
No comment on my above post? https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14484#msg14484
Nobody is using SpyderX? Have you had different experiences? Can you please post your logs?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: dsm1212 on October 31, 2019, 10:03:31 AM
I read through a bunch here, but not everything so I apologize. The questions I have are:

1. Gamma is tied to lamp/filter but I have an RS1000 with no filter. So I need exactly two gamma calibrations. One with Low lamp and one with High lamp. Correct?

2. If I do a spyderx pro calibration for color can I tell from looking at the results before I save if it is any good? Like a major gaff on the chart or something that is obvious?

3. The quote from the doc mentioned by others seems to indicate that frame adapt will be affected by calibration, you just have to use a different picture mode with matching lamp/filter for gamma. Is that still the current belief?

4. Other than the subjective visual, is there any definitive way to tell if a given menu selection is picking up my calibrated settings?

thanks!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on October 31, 2019, 10:45:20 AM
I read through a bunch here, but not everything so I apologize. The questions I have are:

1. Gamma is tied to lamp/filter but I have an RS1000 with no filter. So I need exactly two gamma calibrations. One with Low lamp and one with High lamp. Correct?

2. If I do a spyderx pro calibration for color can I tell from looking at the results before I save if it is any good? Like a major gaff on the chart or something that is obvious?

3. The quote from the doc mentioned by others seems to indicate that frame adapt will be affected by calibration, you just have to use a different picture mode with matching lamp/filter for gamma. Is that still the current belief?

4. Other than the subjective visual, is there any definitive way to tell if a given menu selection is picking up my calibrated settings?

thanks!
1. Correct 
2. Not easy. If you own a reliable meter, you could check the gamut before and see if gamut shown after autocal is indicating a similar status. In my case I see a very bad green after autocal that is not reflecting what I get with ColorMunki and i1d3 so I know that it is wrong.
3. it is the official voice and we didn’t find elements that contradict it
4. Unfortunately not
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: dsm1212 on October 31, 2019, 03:09:06 PM
1. Correct
2. Not easy. If you own a reliable meter, you could check the gamut before and see if gamut shown after autocal is indicating a similar status. In my case I see a very bad green after autocal that is not reflecting what I get with ColorMunki and i1d3 so I know that it is wrong.
3. it is the official voice and we didn’t find elements that contradict it
4. Unfortunately not
Thanks!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: dsm1212 on October 31, 2019, 03:36:36 PM
I haven't tried the spyderx color calibration yet, but I notice there are datacolor instructions for using their software with a projector. I'm thinking these could be important even with the jvc software for getting a good reading. See below. So gamma 2.2, brightness max, iris wide open. I think white balance 6500k or maybe some other setting. Comments?

steve


 


Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Killroy™ on October 31, 2019, 04:22:51 PM
I haven't tried the spyderx color calibration yet, but I notice there are datacolor instructions for using their software with a projector. I'm thinking these could be important even with the jvc software for getting a good reading. See below. So gamma 2.2, brightness max, iris wide open. I think white balance 6500k or maybe some other setting. Comments?

steve


  • Launch the Spyder5ELITE or even the Spyder5ELITE+ software and select “Projector” via the “Display Type” menu.
  • In the Calibration Settings window select Gamma 2.2, native White Point (Do Not Adjust – Recommended) and for the Brightness also “Do Not Adjust – Recommended”.
    Alternatively you can also select a White Point of 6500 Kelvin, but be aware that this will reduce your front projector’s brightness, because one or two color channels will be clipped after the white point correction.
  • In the “Advanced Settings” select the Gray Balance Calibration “Off – Recommended”, which is required for front projectors that uses the DLP technology. On front projectors that using a different technology you can also select the option “Faster”.
  • Mount your Spyder5ELITE at your tripod and place the sensor at a distance of 30 cm / 12 inches in front of the screen. The senor’s honeycomb filter has to face towards the screen. The Spyder5ELITE software compensates the shadow the Spyder5ELITE create now on the screen.
  • Keep your room pitch dark during the calibration process to get the best results.

This will fall on deaf's ears but I will try this anyways...

Never ever calibrate your projector for movie/tv viewing with the Datacolor software. Their calibration is for graphics/video (photo and NLE video editing) on applications that use ICC profiles. If you do you will never get proper color calibrations using AutoCal or any other calibration tools that we use for movie/tv viewing. ICC is a nightmare to deal with once you get it in your system. They usually deal with sRGB and AdobeRGB. Even if Datacolor claims they can calibrate to BT709, DCI-P3 or BT2020, they still deal with ICC profiles.

Their calibration is basically done at the OS level, not the display level. If you change the ICC profile you will now affect any display level calibration no matter what they (Datacolor) tell you that it won't.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: dsm1212 on October 31, 2019, 05:12:28 PM
This will fall on deaf's ears but I will try this anyways...

Never ever calibrate your projector for movie/tv viewing with the Datacolor software. Their calibration is for graphics/video (photo and NLE video editing) on applications that use ICC profiles. If you do you will never get proper color calibrations using AutoCal or any other calibration tools that we use for movie/tv viewing. ICC is a nightmare to deal with once you get it in your system. They usually deal with sRGB and AdobeRGB. Even if Datacolor claims they can calibrate to BT709, DCI-P3 or BT2020, they still deal with ICC profiles.

Their calibration is basically done at the OS level, not the display level. If you change the ICC profile you will now affect any display level calibration no matter what they (Datacolor) tell you that it won't.
Ha, well this may fall on blind eyes but I asked about using their recommended settings with the jvc software :-). Any thoughts on that? The tool is obviously used for color calibration and I'm thinking maybe we are just lacking the right settings for it to get a good reading.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Killroy™ on October 31, 2019, 05:36:17 PM
Ha, well this may fall on blind eyes but I asked about using their recommended settings with the jvc software :-). Any thoughts on that? The tool is obviously used for color calibration and I'm thinking maybe we are just lacking the right settings for it to get a good reading.
There is nothing you can do to improve the Spyder5/X color measurements on AutoCal. That is just the nature of the Spyder hardware.

You don't have to do anything in their software for Gamma calibration on AutoCal. As a matter of fact, I believe the recommended steps is to never launch the Datacolor software, and maybe even uninstall it after the driver gets loaded.


Their software is actually incredible good at creating ICC profiles. But not for display level calibration.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: alamagar on October 31, 2019, 08:59:44 PM
I read through a bunch here, but not everything so I apologize. The questions I have are:

1. Gamma is tied to lamp/filter but I have an RS1000 with no filter. So I need exactly two gamma calibrations. One with Low lamp and one with High lamp. Correct?

2. If I do a spyderx pro calibration for color can I tell from looking at the results before I save if it is any good? Like a major gaff on the chart or something that is obvious?

3. The quote from the doc mentioned by others seems to indicate that frame adapt will be affected by calibration, you just have to use a different picture mode with matching lamp/filter for gamma. Is that still the current belief?

4. Other than the subjective visual, is there any definitive way to tell if a given menu selection is picking up my calibrated settings?

thanks!
This brings to me different questions:

1.- Then, why is the screen previous to calibration asking for Picture Mode and Color Profile and Color Temp? (see image attached). As far as I understand the gamma result (and color if you calibrate color as well) will be used independently of this selection.

2.- I read from Mani instructions that Iris was taken into account in steps of 4. Will calibration for Iris -4, will be applied when choosing Iris 0? And -5?

3.- Even you choose in the previous screen to calibrate Picture Mode “HDR10” and Color Profile “HDR” there is no real calibration for HDR. This will affect SDR modes as long as you use same Iris range and lamp. Correct?

4.- But then the other way around, If when I calibrate gamma for low, -4, BT709(no filter), it is as well being used when I choose HDR10 or frame adaptative as far as I use same lamp, iris and no filter, how a gamma 2.2 calibration can be used in a proper way  by an HDR EOTF curve? It is different target and curve and HDR needs specific gamma calibration different from SDR. I do not want my SDR calibration is taken in consideration when using HDR.

5. And finally, why frame adaptative is affected by any other gamma calibration? It is supposed the projector is taking tone mapping decisions for each frame.

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2019, 03:06:07 AM
This brings to me different questions:

1.- Then, why is the screen previous to calibration asking for Picture Mode and Color Profile and Color Temp? (see image attached). As far as I understand the gamma result (and color if you calibrate color as well) will be used independently of this selection.

2.- I read from Mani instructions that Iris was taken into account in steps of 4. Will calibration for Iris -4, will be applied when choosing Iris 0? And -5?

3.- Even you choose in the previous screen to calibrate Picture Mode “HDR10” and Color Profile “HDR” there is no real calibration for HDR. This will affect SDR modes as long as you use same Iris range and lamp. Correct?

4.- But then the other way around, If when I calibrate gamma for low, -4, BT709(no filter), it is as well being used when I choose HDR10 or frame adaptative as far as I use same lamp, iris and no filter, how a gamma 2.2 calibration can be used in a proper way  by an HDR EOTF curve? It is different target and curve and HDR needs specific gamma calibration different from SDR. I do not want my SDR calibration is taken in consideration when using HDR.

5. And finally, why frame adaptative is affected by any other gamma calibration? It is supposed the projector is taking tone mapping decisions for each frame.

1. It's not asking you to specify picture mode, color profile and color temp. It is telling you what the current picture mode is, and which parameters it is using. This is so you can, if you wish, either select a different picture mode to calibrate from the Autocal (you can't/shouldn't use the remote once you're running the Autocal software), or change some of the settings before calibration if you want, in which case these settings will still be active after you leave the autocal.

2. Unless ranges have changed (always a possibility), -4 should use the same range as -5, not 0. The ranges are/were 0 to -3, -4 to -7, -8 to -11, -12 to -15. TBC. As I said many times, it is better to calibrate the iris setting that you are actutally using, irrespective of the range, as even within the same range there are some variations. Then if you want to be able to change the iris setting without recalibrating, do a color for the other ranges you care about. I personally only do the iris setting I'm currently using, and only run another color calibration when I have to open the iris due to brightness reducing.

3. Correct for gamma calibration, as long as you use the same lamp and filter combination. Correct for color calibration as long as you use the same iris range, lamp and filter calibration. Usually at least the iris range is different for between SDR and HDR, but I guess that if your screen is too large and you only have 50nits or less in HDR, you have to use the same settings for SDR too.

4. When you do a gamma calibration, it calibrates all the gamma curves for the same lamp and filter settings. This is done mathematically. All gamma curves, whether power or PQ. So it doesn't matter whether you're calibrating an SDR or HDR picture mode. This is also why it's recommended to run gamma autocal with the iris fully open at gamma 2.2. This will help to calibrate near black more accurately, and will make the log graphs more readable (if it follows the straight line, the calibration went well according to the Spyder).

5. The reason why the frame adapt mode can't be calibrating is precisely because it will adapt depending on each pattern. It's the same as using the dynamic iris. It's not possible because it would impact the calibration. So as long as you calibrate a picture mode that uses the same gamma, filter and iris range, it should be calibrated. One user reported this not working, so I suggested trying if selecting BT2020 vs P3 would make a difference, but really there is no reason for that, in theory. Until a user reports whether it makes a difference, or whether their problem is solved or not, sticking to the theory is safest. Personally I had no problem getting frame adapt calibrated, but I do calibrate both an SDR BT2020 and an SDR P3 mode, so not sure if that played a part or not (it shouldn't as the filter mode is the same and autocal isn't supposed to make a difference).

I'm hoping to be able to do more tests with the Spyder X by the end of next week. I'll report back then.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: alamagar on November 01, 2019, 05:57:20 AM
1. It's not asking you to specify picture mode, color profile and color temp. It is telling you what the current picture mode is, and which parameters it is using. This is so you can, if you wish, either select a different picture mode to calibrate from the Autocal (you can't/shouldn't use the remote once you're running the Autocal software), or change some of the settings before calibration if you want, in which case these settings will still be active after you leave the autocal.

2. Unless ranges have changed (always a possibility), -4 should use the same range as -5, not 0. The ranges are/were 0 to -3, -4 to -7, -8 to -11, -12 to -15. TBC. As I said many times, it is better to calibrate the iris setting that you are actutally using, irrespective of the range, as even within the same range there are some variations. Then if you want to be able to change the iris setting without recalibrating, do a color for the other ranges you care about. I personally only do the iris setting I'm currently using, and only run another color calibration when I have to open the iris due to brightness reducing.

3. Correct for gamma calibration, as long as you use the same lamp and filter combination. Correct for color calibration as long as you use the same iris range, lamp and filter calibration. Usually at least the iris range is different for between SDR and HDR, but I guess that if your screen is too large and you only have 50nits or less in HDR, you have to use the same settings for SDR too.

4. When you do a gamma calibration, it calibrates all the gamma curves for the same lamp and filter settings. This is done mathematically. All gamma curves, whether power or PQ. So it doesn't matter whether you're calibrating an SDR or HDR picture mode. This is also why it's recommended to run gamma autocal with the iris fully open at gamma 2.2. This will help to calibrate near black more accurately, and will make the log graphs more readable (if it follows the straight line, the calibration went well according to the Spyder).

5. The reason why the frame adapt mode can't be calibrating is precisely because it will adapt depending on each pattern. It's the same as using the dynamic iris. It's not possible because it would impact the calibration. So as long as you calibrate a picture mode that uses the same gamma, filter and iris range, it should be calibrated. One user reported this not working, so I suggested trying if selecting BT2020 vs P3 would make a difference, but really there is no reason for that, in theory. Until a user reports whether it makes a difference, or whether their problem is solved or not, sticking to the theory is safest. Personally I had no problem getting frame adapt calibrated, but I do calibrate both an SDR BT2020 and an SDR P3 mode, so not sure if that played a part or not (it shouldn't as the filter mode is the same and autocal isn't supposed to make a difference).

I'm hoping to be able to do more tests with the Spyder X by the end of next week. I'll report back then.
Many thanks for the clarifications Mani!!
I still have some doubts reading your answers:
1.- In one paragraph you say “it is better to calibrate the iris setting that you are actually using”. In another “This is also why it's recommended to run gamma autocal with the iris fully open at gamma 2.2”. It is not clear to me if set the iris to -4 (my iris setting for SDR) or to 0 to calibrate gamma. I am only doing gamma autocalibration as Color is biased using spyderX and prefer to calibrate it manually with my i1d3.

2. The backup file saved after each calibration is incremental or only contains the last calibration? I mean I have now the Init file and the file created after my calibration for SDR -4, low, no filter. If I make a new calibration 0,low, filter for HDR, the new backup file will contain both or just the last one?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on November 01, 2019, 06:22:19 AM
Many thanks for the clarifications Mani!!
I still have some doubts reading your answers:
1.- In one paragraph you say “it is better to calibrate the iris setting that you are actually using”. In another “This is also why it's recommended to run gamma autocal with the iris fully open at gamma 2.2”. It is not clear to me if set the iris to -4 (my iris setting for SDR) or to 0 to calibrate gamma. I am only doing gamma autocalibration as Color is biased using spyderX and prefer to calibrate it manually with my i1d3.

2. The backup file saved after each calibration is incremental or only contains the last calibration? I mean I have now the Init file and the file created after my calibration for SDR -4, low, no filter. If I make a new calibration 0,low, filter for HDR, the new backup file will contain both or just the last one?
1. If you only do a gamma calibration, you can try running it at -4 (your usual setting) and check if you get any 0 reading in the log. If you do, run the gamma autocal again with the iris at zero (fully open). Iris fully open is usually the safest/optimal setting for a gamma calibration, as it helps with low light readings, especially with a 33-step calibration. My advice to make sure your actual iris setting is calibrated was regarding color calibration, as it doesn't matter for gamma and some do many color calibrations to calibrate all the iris ranges. All this is explained in the basic section. Please re-read it if necessary.

2. This was discussed recently (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1850.msg14385#msg14385). I've added a link to this post to the FAQ.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 01, 2019, 11:34:20 AM
Because of the poor color calibration with my Spyder, I restored the INIT file and auto-calibrated gamma only (while waiting for a used i1 display pro).
After the calibration I compared color measures using ColorMunki and Spyder on a common field: HCFR.
With SpyderX I did measures using two calibration matrices: General and Standard Led
I also attached a picture of the gamut logged by Autocal software itself.
As you can see, General is pretty distant from ColorMunki (that I think is quite accurate). And the gamut read by Autocal is very similar to the results achieved with General. There is an evident problem with the green. Standard Led setting seems more similar to the ColorMunki though.
This test confirms IMHO the inaccuracy of SpyderX when used with the "General" matrix, apparently the one that Autocal is using.
On the other hand I measured the gamma and it is simply perfect! And the color uncalibrated is not that bad after 300h.
I bought a used i1pro 2! I tried performing an Autocalibration with very good results (PFA). As expected, the green was not bad as with SpyderX and apparently only a correction to the red has been applied. I checked the results with Calman using my i1d3 profiled and I can confirm the correct calibration. I think now we can say that SpyderX is not reading correctly the colors (especially green) and this is causing bad calibration. I still believe it is a matter of configuration, because I got acceptable results in HCFR with the right calibration matrix (standard led).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 01, 2019, 04:35:30 PM
Hi Manni,

Using my i1 pro 2 in Autocal I can't have the meter within the orange rectangle. Can you? Is that a problem? Since I can't get the VPR closer to the screen, as the message suggest, do you recommend to shrink the screen as much as I can? I noticed that results are good, even though Gray 12.5% is a little far from the reference, maybe because of the low luminance?
Also, the manual suggest a distance of 30cm/1 for the SpyderX. What about the i1 pro?

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: JonnyVee on November 02, 2019, 05:34:09 AM
Hi Manni,

I’m not asking this in the MadVR HDR to SD forum as its off topic there. However, I want to make sure I’m calibrating my JVC properly for HDR-SD content. Can you help confirm?



Lastly, I calibrated Bt2020 w/filter JVC picture mode with D65,P3. I then chose “DCI-P3” in MadVR for “this display is calibrated to”. 


I know this is really basic stuff, but I don’t find HDR colorspace calibrating very straight forward. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on November 02, 2019, 05:59:13 AM
Hi Manni,

I’m not asking this in the MadVR HDR to SD forum as its off topic there. However, I want to make sure I’m calibrating my JVC properly for HDR-SD content. Can you help confirm?


  • When calibrating for JVC picture mode “Bt2020 (w/filter)” with Calman. What color space target do you use? “Bt.2020 SDR” or “D65, P3”?
  • When you’re calibrating for JVC picture mode “HDR (no filter)” with calman. What colorspace do you use - “D65,P3”?
  • What gamma formula in Calman for both? Power 2.2.
  • My PC is set to RGB full. Are you using luminance level “PC (0-255) in Calman.

Lastly, I calibrated Bt2020 w/filter JVC picture mode with D65,P3. I then chose “DCI-P3” in MadVR for “this display is calibrated to”.


I know this is really basic stuff, but I don’t find HDR colorspace calibrating very straight forward.
For madVR pixel shader tonemapping, you don't calibrate to HDR, you calibrate to SDR, so select a USER picture mode, not one of the HDR picture modes (BT2020, HDR) as these will use PQ, not power gamma by default, and you want to keep them that way.

Re levels, it depends on the OS version, driver version, GPU, bit depth, it's just impossible to tell you the right combination. Calman should be left to video levels (16-235) as this is what madVR expects. With my 1080ti in Win 10 x64 Pro build 1909 with latest nVidia in 8bits 4:4:4 I use GPU 0-255, madVR 16-235 and JVC 16-235 (standard). Gives the right video levels, but not for game or desktop use.

If you're not using a 3D LUT, it doesn't matter if you use BT2020 or P3, as long as saturations are tracking properly as far as the gamut go. Assuming you're not using a 3D LUT, I would select in the JVC and in Calman:

BT2020, P65, Gamma 2.4 and make sure in Calman that the PJ is tracking well with these targets. Your BT2020 cover will look under saturated, but as long as the saturations track, you'll be good to go. If you want your gamut graphs to look nicer, you can measure P3 within BT2020, there are some layouts that do that. This shows how P3 content measures within the BT2020 container.

In madVR's calibration tab, simply provide the settings you've used when calibrating/checking with Calman, in this case already "calibrated for" BT2020, D65, 2.4. The advantage of doing it this way is that you can use the same calibration with a consumer source, such as a Pana UB UHD player tonemapping to SDR BT2020.

If you use a 3D LUT when tonemapping HDR to SDR with madVR, it gets more complicated because you have to use a gamma target of 2.2 to create the 3D LUT. Also, it's recommended to use P3 rather than BT2020 to limit the risk of posterization. In that case, you need to create an SDR P3 USER mode with P3, D65, Gamma 2.2 (preferably, it can be anything) and a target gamma of 2.2 when generating the P3 3D LUT in Calman.

Either way, don't use the CMS for more than a few clicks, especially for saturation. It's not working, especially if you target 100% of your gamut. You have to find a gamut target that gives you the best average saturation tracking, but usually using the CMS will make things worse, not better. If you need any significant correction gamut wise, you need to use the JVC Autocal.

madVR calibration or Calman use is also off topic in this thread, so feel free to ask if you have any Autocal related questions, otherwise keep it simple for madVR, as suggested above.

There is a white paper on Spectracal/Portrait display's website on madVR calibration (https://app.spectracal.com/Documents/QSGs/madVR 3D LUT Calibration QuickStart.pdf), I don't know how accurate or up to date it is but it's worth looking at it. You can also PM @LovingDVD on AVS, he's been through calibrating with Calman for madVR recently and he might be able to help. There are also a few tips in my mini-review linked in the second post. I'm sorry but I don't have the time at the moment to help more. I will try to create a thread for calibrating with madVR when it gets out of beta, but too many things are changing at the moment to do this without it being a  timesuck.

Good luck!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 02, 2019, 08:01:16 AM
Hi Manni,

Using my i1 pro 2 in Autocal I can't have the meter within the orange rectangle. Can you? Is that a problem? Since I can't get the VPR closer to the screen, as the message suggest, do you recommend to shrink the screen as much as I can? I noticed that results are good, even though Gray 12.5% is a little far from the reference, maybe because of the low luminance?
Also, the manual suggest a distance of 30cm/1 for the SpyderX. What about the i1 pro?

Thanks in advance
Hi Manni, can you please be so kind to respond to my question?

thanks.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Set11 on November 03, 2019, 02:47:03 PM
Hi Manni,

Using my i1 pro 2 in Autocal I can't have the meter within the orange rectangle. Can you? Is that a problem? Since I can't get the VPR closer to the screen, as the message suggest, do you recommend to shrink the screen as much as I can? I noticed that results are good, even though Gray 12.5% is a little far from the reference, maybe because of the low luminance?
Also, the manual suggest a distance of 30cm/1 for the SpyderX. What about the i1 pro?

Thanks in advance

Not Manni (obviously), but I've asked him the same question before. His recommendation is to shrink the image down just like what you've done. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: David Vaughn on November 03, 2019, 04:35:53 PM
I had this exact problem last night as well. I got the gamma corrected (just about 500 hours on the projector and it was looking a bit flat), but when I went to calibrate the color with my old Eye 1 Pro, I couldn't get the meter inside of the box. Granted, colors look pretty good so I'm not stressing too much. I'll give it another go tonight and see if I can get it to work. 

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: den110 on November 03, 2019, 05:36:21 PM
I bought a used i1pro 2! I tried performing an Autocalibration with very good results (PFA). As expected, the green was not bad as with SpyderX and apparently only a correction to the red has been applied. I checked the results with Calman using my i1d3 profiled and I can confirm the correct calibration. I think now we can say that SpyderX is not reading correctly the colors (especially green) and this is causing bad calibration. I still believe it is a matter of configuration, because I got acceptable results in HCFR with the right calibration matrix (standard led).
This is what I got doing a BT 709 calibration (gamma and color) with the SpyderX.  low lamp, -4.  Don't have another meter to check accuracy, but picture looks good.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Jwb2 on November 03, 2019, 06:47:04 PM
Hello all,  Im using a ipro 2 for color calibration and a spyder x for gamma.  After calibrations for SDR 709 and HDR bt2020, everything looks great when I check the calibration results with my id3 pro/chromapure.

My issue is Im losing some brightness post calibration.  For example, for HDR pre calibration Im at 28FL.  Post HDR calibration, I drop down to 24FL.  Picture still looks great, but I wasnt sure if this loss of brightness was normal and to be expected or if I might have done something incorrect to cause it. 

I could never get the i pro 2 into the orange box during color calibration, so I left it about 2 ft from the screen.  Could this have caused my issue?  Or is it more likely that its the spyder X causing it?   

Any advice?  Thank you!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: alamagar on November 04, 2019, 04:12:41 AM
This is what I got doing a BT 709 calibration (gamma and color) with the SpyderX.  low lamp, -4.  Don't have another meter to check accuracy, but picture looks good.
Hi,
I did recently the same with the SpyderX, -4, gamma and color autocal. Checking after with my i1d3, gamma was perfect but color was pretty bad with delta >5 in all colors. So I rolled back to my init state and made only gamma autocalibration. After that I did color calibration manually with the 1d3.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on November 04, 2019, 04:48:23 AM
I had this exact problem last night as well. I got the gamma corrected (just about 500 hours on the projector and it was looking a bit flat), but when I went to calibrate the color with my old Eye 1 Pro, I couldn't get the meter inside of the box. Granted, colors look pretty good so I'm not stressing too much. I'll give it another go tonight and see if I can get it to work.
Super busy at the moment but I thought I'd take a minute as a few people asked about this recently.

I didn't reply about this because it's all in the basic section, preparation, meter(s) connection and positioning :)
The ipro never shows in the box, so don't waste time trying to make it fit.


@EVERYONE
Once more, if I don't answer a question, please look in the second post for a relevant link or in the FAQ, and re-read the relevant part in the basic section. The answer is usually there. :)

Of course, some don't mind replying to the same questions over and over again, and I thank them for their time.

But I'm more in the school of "teach someone to fish" than "give someone a fish"...
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 04, 2019, 05:01:09 AM
Super busy at the moment but I thought I'd take a minute as a few people asked about this recently.

I didn't reply about this because it's all in the basic section, preparation, meter(s) connection and positioning :)
The ipro never shows in the box, so don't waste time trying to make it fit.

  • When positioning the meter, you want the meter icon on screen to be within the positioning box. For the Spyder 5, facing the PJ lens, this means that it should be to the right of the positioning box, in order to maximise dark readings. For the i1pro2 facing the screen, this means that it should be to the left of the positioning box. Personally, I wasn't able to achieve this with the i1pro2 so I suspect a bug. I therefore suggest you position the i1pro2 at your usual distance. For me, that's 2-3 feet from the screen when using full patterns (see pictures and advanced tips below).

@EVERYONE
Once more, if I don't answer a question, please look in the second post for a relevant link or in the FAQ, and re-read the relevant part in the basic section. The answer is usually there. :)

Of course, some don't mind replying to the same questions over and over again, and I thank them for their time.

But I'm more in the school of "teach someone to fish" than "give someone a fish"...
I read that part of the FAQ but it sounded a little ambiguous to me.
When you say:

For the i1pro2 facing the screen, this means that it should be to the left of the positioning box. Personally, I wasn't able to achieve this with the i1pro2 so I suspect a bug. 

I took it literally, so I thought you were meaning you weren't able to have the i1pro2 to the left of the box. You meant instead that you weren't able to have it within the box... subtle but important difference :)
That's why I asked here. Thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 04, 2019, 05:06:32 AM
This is what I got doing a BT 709 calibration (gamma and color) with the SpyderX.  low lamp, -4.  Don't have another meter to check accuracy, but picture looks good.
As you can see, you are affected by the same inaccuracy on green. I'm pretty sure that your green is not that far from the reference. And trying to fix it, your Autocal is reducing the overall luminance (and making the green worse). Haven't you noticed a reduced luminance? Once I reset and calibrated color again using the i1 pro 2, I realized that the green was much better, as I was supposing. See my previous posts. I had the exact same behavior shown by you. And see what i1 pro 2 reported instead.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: randman on November 04, 2019, 06:18:51 AM
What is the exact model number for the i1pro 2 that is needed? I was looking at X-rite’s web site and there are so many variations and I’m not sure which one is needed.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 04, 2019, 06:43:31 AM
What is the exact model number for the i1pro 2 that is needed? I was looking at X-rite’s web site and there are so many variations and I’m not sure which one is needed.
As usual the basic model is fine, since the hardware is the same and we are not going to use the software included. I bought this one: https://www.xrite.com/categories/calibration-profiling/i1basic-pro-2 (https://www.xrite.com/categories/calibration-profiling/i1basic-pro-2)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: LeFric on November 04, 2019, 07:07:39 AM
I tried the 2006 driver and it remains the same ...
I asked for a budget to repair the i1Pro2 with the surprise that they asked me ¡¡¡¡¡ 570€ !!!!! (We are crazy?); anyway...!!!!!

I have chosen to buy another i1Pro2 knowing that we already have the i1Pro3.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: randman on November 04, 2019, 07:14:44 AM
As usual the basic model is fine, since the hardware is the same and we are not going to use the software included. I bought this one: https://www.xrite.com/categories/calibration-profiling/i1basic-pro-2 (https://www.xrite.com/categories/calibration-profiling/i1basic-pro-2)
I see, thanks.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 04, 2019, 07:35:40 AM
I tried the 2006 driver and it remains the same ...
I asked for a budget to repair the i1Pro2 with the surprise that they asked me ¡¡¡¡¡ 570€ !!!!! (We are crazy?); anyway...!!!!!

I have chosen to buy another i1Pro2 knowing that we already have the i1Pro3.
Are you sure that it can be used with Autocal?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on November 04, 2019, 08:56:11 AM
Hello all,  Im using a ipro 2 for color calibration and a spyder x for gamma.  After calibrations for SDR 709 and HDR bt2020, everything looks great when I check the calibration results with my id3 pro/chromapure.

My issue is Im losing some brightness post calibration.  For example, for HDR pre calibration Im at 28FL.  Post HDR calibration, I drop down to 24FL.  Picture still looks great, but I wasnt sure if this loss of brightness was normal and to be expected or if I might have done something incorrect to cause it.

I could never get the i pro 2 into the orange box during color calibration, so I left it about 2 ft from the screen.  Could this have caused my issue?  Or is it more likely that its the spyder X causing it? 

Any advice?  Thank you!

I don't think the light loss is normal.  I did an autocal on a NX5 and NX7 with Spyder5 / i1 Pro 2 combo and both times it slightly increased brightness post calibration.

The gamma cal shouldn't affect the brightness since gamma doesn't affect 100% white which is what you just to measure the brightness.

The color cal is what can affect brightness, but with an i1 Pro 2 I have olny seen it slightly raise brightness after cal.

Have you calculated your lumens?  The NX5 and NX7 I autocal were about 1600 lumens after autocal in high bulb full open iris and close throw.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: David Vaughn on November 04, 2019, 09:23:28 AM
I wasn't able to get my I1 Pro to work the other night because I ran out of time, but one question to anyone who has used it to calibrate color. How and when did you do a dark reading on it? In Calman, it's part of the setup process. Is it the same in the JVC programming?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on November 04, 2019, 09:42:54 AM
I wasn't able to get my I1 Pro to work the other night because I ran out of time, but one question to anyone who has used it to calibrate color. How and when did you do a dark reading on it? In Calman, it's part of the setup process. Is it the same in the JVC programming?
With the 2006 driver, I was able to leave it on its tile and it’s detected automatically when you select it, though it takes some time. With the 2009 driver, I had to press the button to do a dark calibration during detection. I might have not let it for long enough though. I’ll do more tests when I come back. We’ve discussed this just a few pages back.

This is also discussed in the basic section (though not the driver difference).
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: David Vaughn on November 04, 2019, 10:04:49 AM
With the 2006 driver, I was able to leave it on its tile and it’s detected automatically when you select it, though it takes some time. With the 2009 driver, I had to press the button to do a dark calibration during detection. I might have not let it for long enough though. I’ll do more tests when I come back. We’ve discussed this just a few pages back.

This is also discussed in the basic section (though not the driver difference).
Thanks Manni. I'll do a search. Are there any links to the different drivers? I'm not which one I'm using. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 04, 2019, 10:12:32 AM
Thanks Manni. I'll do a search. Are there any links to the different drivers? I'm not which one I'm using.
2009 driver is coming with Windows. If you download it from X-Rite official site, you got the 2006 one:
https://www.xrite.com/service-support/downloads/i/i1drivers_32_64_bit_win2000_xp_vista
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: David Vaughn on November 04, 2019, 10:22:05 AM
2009 driver is coming with Windows. If you download it from X-Rite official site, you got the 2006 one:
https://www.xrite.com/service-support/downloads/i/i1drivers_32_64_bit_win2000_xp_vista
Which driver do you recommend?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 04, 2019, 11:52:01 AM
I'm using the 2006 driver because:


Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: ENT on November 05, 2019, 04:01:00 AM
I'm using the 2006 driver because:

  • Manni reported it doesn't require to press the initialization button
  • There was the suspect that the relatively new 2009 driver was leading to an inaccurate calibration
Are you sure? I am using EFI2000 - I saw that with 2009 driver isn't necessary to put every time the meter on the calibration plate, if don't exit from the calibration page (similar at the timed operational in Calman). Instead with the 2006 Driver each calibration needs a reinitialization step. Someone could try?  Of course, a different consideration must to be done if the calibration with 2009 driver is inaccurate.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 05, 2019, 04:26:24 AM
Are you sure? I am using EFI2000 - I saw that with 2009 driver isn't necessary to put every time the meter on the calibration plate, if don't exit from the calibration page (similar at the timed operational in Calman). Instead with the 2006 Driver each calibration needs a reinitialization step. Someone could try?  Of course, a different consideration must to be done if the calibration with 2009 driver is inaccurate.
What I can tell you is that with my i1 pro 2 and 2006 driver I don’t have to initialize at any session. Just after several minutes.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jj-34 on November 05, 2019, 06:11:25 AM
Quick question about the EFI ES-2000 ( still waiting for it ) it seems that it is not delivered with an attachment to a photo tripod (as opposed to the xrite I1 pro2),  if true how do you attach it  ?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: ENT on November 05, 2019, 07:47:05 AM
Quick question about the EFI ES-2000 ( still waiting for it ) it seems that it is not delivered with an attachment to a photo tripod (as opposed to the xrite I1 pro2),  if true how do you attach it  ?
You can use the black neutral plate support included in the box and  fix it to a tripod with electrical plastic clamp, it is very easy.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 05, 2019, 08:01:10 AM
Quick question about the EFI ES-2000 ( still waiting for it ) it seems that it is not delivered with an attachment to a photo tripod (as opposed to the xrite I1 pro2),  if true how do you attach it  ?
I ended up buying this for my EFI ES-2000, though you might want to find a slightly larger one. That one works but just barely due to the size of the meter.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072KNBV21/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072KNBV21/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

I can also confirm that the meter shows up as an i1Pro2 in ChromaPure. I gave Tom Huffman the serial number and he added the meter to my licence. Works great. I did some touch ups of my RS2000 last night with it.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jj-34 on November 05, 2019, 08:23:38 AM
I ended up buying this for my EFI ES-2000, though you might want to find a slightly larger one. That one works but just barely due to the size of the meter.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072KNBV21/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072KNBV21/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
That's a good idea,   and they ship to France !

Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: AVSCraig on November 05, 2019, 02:13:41 PM
I ended up buying this for my EFI ES-2000, though you might want to find a slightly larger one. That one works but just barely due to the size of the meter.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072KNBV21/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072KNBV21/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

I can also confirm that the meter shows up as an i1Pro2 in ChromaPure. I gave Tom Huffman the serial number and he added the meter to my licence. Works great. I did some touch ups of my RS2000 last night with it.
Maybe it's time for a brief RS2000 review update, touching on the DTM and thoughts now that you've had it a while. 
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: den110 on November 05, 2019, 05:03:12 PM
As you can see, you are affected by the same inaccuracy on green. I'm pretty sure that your green is not that far from the reference. And trying to fix it, your Autocal is reducing the overall luminance (and making the green worse). Haven't you noticed a reduced luminance? Once I reset and calibrated color again using the i1 pro 2, I realized that the green was much better, as I was supposing. See my previous posts. I had the exact same behavior shown by you. And see what i1 pro 2 reported instead.

Man, I hope it is a bug in the software and it gets corrected.  Trying hard not to have to spend the $ and get a i1 pro 2.  Maybe i will just do the same for now and reset, doing just gamma with the SpyderX.  
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jj-34 on November 06, 2019, 02:24:07 PM
Just received the EFI ES-2000, the vendor did not lie, it's brand new unused even the stickers are still on and it's dated 08-2017.
Using DisplayCal I will try to use it do a correction matrix of my spyder 5 and X and see how they compare.
Question : by doing this is it possible to have a visual indication / chart of the comparison or are they just figures to be interpreted ?  Sorry I have never done this before.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: randman on November 06, 2019, 05:28:50 PM
Man, I hope it is a bug in the software and it gets corrected.  Trying hard not to have to spend the $ and get a i1 pro 2.  Maybe i will just do the same for now and reset, doing just gamma with the SpyderX. 
Ditto!
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 06, 2019, 10:36:43 PM
Just received the EFI ES-2000, the vendor did not lie, it's brand new unused even the stickers are still on and it's dated 08-2017.
Using DisplayCal I will try to use it do a correction matrix of my spyder 5 and X and see how they compare.
Question : by doing this is it possible to have a visual indication / chart of the comparison or are they just figures to be interpreted ?  Sorry I have never done this before.
I would suggest, simply measure gamut with all three (without correction matrix) and compare them. You should be able to have an indication of dE for the vertex (RGB) and white. I guess you will have a bad green with the SpyderX like me. Please consider that correction matrix doesn’t help with autocal, as the software doesn’t offer any way to enter it.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jj-34 on November 07, 2019, 01:49:08 AM
Sure, I knew that autocal does not allow a correction matrix, I only meant a way to compare the spyder 5 vs the X.
To do the actual autocal I will of course use the Spyder ( X or 5 ) for the gamma and the ES-2000 (I1 Pro2) for the colour calibration.
Later on if my knowledge improves I may even attempt a full calibration with HCFR .... ;)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Jwb2 on November 08, 2019, 12:45:37 AM
I don't think the light loss is normal.  I did an autocal on a NX5 and NX7 with Spyder5 / i1 Pro 2 combo and both times it slightly increased brightness post calibration.

The gamma cal shouldn't affect the brightness since gamma doesn't affect 100% white which is what you just to measure the brightness.

The color cal is what can affect brightness, but with an i1 Pro 2 I have olny seen it slightly raise brightness after cal.

Have you calculated your lumens?  The NX5 and NX7 I autocal were about 1600 lumens after autocal in high bulb full open iris and close throw.
Thank you for the reply!  You’re right, it is the color cal that’s hurting my brightness. 

I reloaded my init file and recovered my brightness (1500 lumens on my rs2000, 135” screen). 

I redid my auto cal, first with gamma/spyder x and didn’t lose any brightness. 

Then I did color/ipro 2 and lost brightness again. Went from 95 nits to 85 nits. 

Not sure if I’m doing something wrong or if that’s just what happens to my unit when the white point is calibrated?

Im at min throw/max zoom and I have the ipro 2 about 2 ft facing the screen. I changed my screen size to 60 on the autocal software bc I thought I read Manni saying that could affect brightness. 

has anyone else lost brightness with an ipro 2 color cal?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jj-34 on November 08, 2019, 06:27:29 AM
So using my monitor and DisplayCal I did a correction matrix for both the Spyder X and 5 versus the I1 Pro2, here is the result :
(https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2019/11/08//19110803083115897516499141.jpg)

Also attached the ccmx files.

Any comments about them ?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 08, 2019, 10:31:12 AM
So using my monitor and DisplayCal I did a correction matrix for both the Spyder X and 5 versus the I1 Pro2, here is the result :
(https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2019/11/08//19110803083115897516499141.jpg)

Also attached the ccmx files.

Any comments about them ?
What did you expect to see? You have corrected both with the same reference spectrometer so you got very similar results. I don’t understand the purpose of your test
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 08, 2019, 11:52:19 AM
As I recommended, to compare SpyderX to Spyder5 you have to test them uncorrected and use the i1 pro 2 as a reference. So you can determine which one is closer to it.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jj-34 on November 08, 2019, 03:34:16 PM
Agreed the chart is of no value as far as comparing the Spyder 5 against the X, but joining the 2 matrix files I was hoping that they could help to decide which one is the best to keep.
So my question now is how can I test them uncorrected against the I1 pro 2, or do I just decide to keep the X for the Autocal gamma calibration because it is faster ?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jj-34 on November 08, 2019, 04:05:03 PM
Maybe a stupid idea, but opening side by side the 2 ccmx files Spyder 5 on the left and X on the right, and if these figures are relevant delta to the reference I1 pro 2, one can see that the righmost Spyder X figures are always smaller, can't that show that the X is more similar to the I1 pro 2 than the 5 ?
(https://nsm09.casimages.com/img/2019/11/09//aoo3Ib-Spyder-5-ccmx-vs-Spyder-X.jpg)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 08, 2019, 04:24:32 PM
Yes, you can say that SpyderX is more accurate... according to displaycal!. The issue is that Autocal seems to not use it properly. Have you observed an incorrect green after having calibrated the color with autocal?
Try to measure the gamut with displaycal and compare it to what autocal is logging.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jj-34 on November 09, 2019, 03:00:06 AM
Yes will do that, it may take a little time though :(

When I get a chance I will also do a correction matrix for my I1D3 too but using the actual screen this time.
To do this can there be a variation if using DisplayCal instead of HCFR ?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 10, 2019, 11:25:34 PM
Yes will do that, it may take a little time though :(

When I get a chance I will also do a correction matrix for my I1D3 too but using the actual screen this time.
To do this can there be a variation if using DisplayCal instead of HCFR ?
No variation on the results of a calibration. The aim is always to correct the measure and you will get a corrected measure with both. But again, this is not helpful to compare the meters: once corrected they will look the same. And, as you know, you are not improving the way jvc autocal software works. A profiled meter can just provide more accurate measures outside of autocal.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on November 11, 2019, 02:19:29 AM
There has been a lot of misinformation and assumptions posted in the thread recently, so after running a few tests I'm going to try to correct a few mistruths...

Regarding the i1pro2 driver:
1) The driver for the i1pro2 doesn't make any difference for the Autocal, at least here. Both in V11 and V12, the i1pro2 is detected if you leave it on the calibration tile when you select it in the software, irrespective of the driver (2006 or 2009). No idea why that didn't work for me in the past, or why it still doesn't work for some.
2) The 2009 driver is installed by Calman, so unless you want to replace the driver with an older version every time you install a new version of Calman, I don't see any reason to revert to the 2006 driver if you're running the latest windows build. The 2009 driver seems to be working just as well as the 2006 one.
3) There is no accuracy issue with the 2009 driver here, I have no idea where that comes from, at least with Calman. There might be a bug in Autocal V12, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the driver itself.

This is with Windows 10 Pro x64 build 1903 and with an i1pro2 REV E. Of course it could be different with older versions of Windows, or with unsupported clones of the i1pro2, but this is what I observe here.

If you observe anything different, please list the exact model of your meter and windows version and provide actual measurements, so we can try to see if there are incompatible combinations.

Regarding the results of Autocal V12 with the Spyder X:
I haven't received a version of Calman supporting the X yet, but I've done some limited tests in Lightspace with my Spyder X unit. It has a 5dE error on white, and a 1-2dE error on red and green (I didn't measure blue). The reading from the Autocal itself show the same errors when you do a log with the i1pro2 and the Spyder X, so there is nothing that suggests that V12 is doing anything wrong with the Spyder X. It just reads what the Spyder X reports and takes it as reality.

So I wouldn't use this specific Spyder X for color calibration, given that the JVCs are fairly close out of the box.

My Spyder 5 (that specific unit, it could be different with another one) reading off the lens is more accurate, even though I'd rather use the i1pro2 for color obviously.

Regarding the i1pro2, I got better results in V11 than in V12. I tried gamma with the Spyder X + color with the i1pro2 in V12, and gamma with the Spyder 5 + color with the i1pro2 in V11, and V11 gave better results, both from a gamma and from a color point of view.

So there might be some bug(s) in V12 besides the errors in my specific Spyder X unit, which are typical of the kind of errors found in Spyders.

I recommend using V11 with a Spyder 5 if you can until more tests are done with V12. I'll do that when I get a version of Calman supporting the Spyder X, but of course others are welcome to contribute in the meantime.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jj-34 on November 11, 2019, 03:39:05 AM
Manni: maybe a typo, but the I1 Pro 2 is Rev E, same for the EFI ES-2000 that actually is an X-rite I1 Pro 2 simply rebadged.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on November 11, 2019, 03:58:38 AM
Manni: maybe a typo, but the I1 Pro 2 is Rev E, same for the EFI ES-2000 that actually is an X-rite I1 Pro 2 simply rebadged.
Thanks, it was a typo, corrected. It's my old i1pro that was a REV. D :)
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 11, 2019, 04:46:27 AM
There has been a lot of misinformation and assumptions posted in the thread recently, so after running a few tests I'm going to try to correct a few mistruths...

Regarding the i1pro2 driver:
1) The driver for the i1pro2 doesn't make any difference for the Autocal, at least here. Both in V11 and V12, the i1pro2 is detected if you leave it on the calibration tile when you select it in the software, irrespective of the driver (2006 or 2009). No idea why that didn't work for me in the past, or why it still doesn't work for some.
2) The 2009 driver is installed by Calman, so unless you want to replace the driver with an older version every time you install a new version of Calman, I don't see any reason to revert to the 2006 driver if you're running the latest windows build. The 2009 driver seems to be working just as well as the 2006 one.
3) There is no accuracy issue with the 2009 driver here, I have no idea where that comes from, at least with Calman. There might be a bug in Autocal V12, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the driver itself.

This is with Windows 10 Pro x64 build 1909 and with an i1pro2 REV E. Of course it could be different with older versions of Windows, or with unsupported clones of the i1pro2, but this is what I observe here.

If you observe anything different, please list the exact model of your meter and windows version and provide actual measurements, so we can try to see if there are incompatible combinations.

Regarding the results of Autocal V12 with the Spyder X:
I haven't received a version of Calman supporting the X yet, but I've done some limited tests in Lightspace with my Spyder X unit. It has a 5dE error on white, and a 1-2dE error on red and green (I didn't measure blue). The reading from the Autocal itself show the same errors when you do a log with the i1pro2 and the Spyder X, so there is nothing that suggests that V12 is doing anything wrong with the Spyder X. It just reads what the Spyder X reports and takes it as reality.
Looking at your gamut diagrams within Autocal I would guess that the error on green is more than 2dE. If you consider that with i1pro2 you are reading a green positioned slightly at right of the reference and SpyderX is instead reporting a green slightly to the left of the reference. You should be comparing the SpyderX with i1pro2 not with the current VPR status. So similarly to me, Autocal is trying to fix the green in the wrong direction. In DisplayCal the difference seems less than what I see in Autocal. I still have some doubts about the accuracy of Autocal 12. After all you are stating that 11 is more accurate so there is something wrong.
I don't know DisplayCal, does it allow to specify a correction matrix like HCFR does? What have you selected in that case?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 12, 2019, 01:23:23 PM
@Manni
No correction matrix with DisplayCal?
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on November 12, 2019, 01:42:16 PM
@Manni
No correction matrix with DisplayCal?
You can create correction matrix in DisplayCAL or use correction matrix created elsewhere (like HCFR) with it too.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 12, 2019, 11:57:02 PM
You can create correction matrix in DisplayCAL or use correction matrix created elsewhere (like HCFR) with it too.
I was referring to something subtly different. When you create a new session within colorHCFR, it is asked which correction matrix to apply from a predefined list. This list seems to be embedded in the meter (or driver?). For sure it changes with the meter. And it alters significantly the measures. One of them was able to make the spyder measures closer to the reference. I was asking if displaycal does the same and in that case which one Manni selected.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: jj-34 on November 13, 2019, 04:04:16 AM
Within the DisplayCal help and guidance there is a chapter that mentions the fact that the spyders 4 and 5 (X too ?)  have some sort of in-build spectral values caracterizing their filters. Not sure I understand all of it but that looks like what you're talking about.
Quote
Special note about the X-Rite i1 Display Pro, ColorMunki Display and Spyder4/5 colorimeters
These instruments greatly reduce the amount of work needed to match them to a display because they contain the spectral sensitivities of their filters in hardware, so only a spectrometer reading of the display is needed to create the correction (in contrast to matching other colorimeters to a display, which needs two readings: One with a spectrometer and one with the colorimeter).
 That means anyone with a particular screen and a spectrometer can create a special Colorimeter Calibration Spectral Set (

.ccss
) file of that screen for use with those colorimeters, without needing to actually have access to the colorimeter itself.


Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on November 13, 2019, 06:14:51 AM
I was referring to something subtly different. When you create a new session within colorHCFR, it is asked which correction matrix to apply from a predefined list. This list seems to be embedded in the meter (or driver?). For sure it changes with the meter. And it alters significantly the measures. One of them was able to make the spyder measures closer to the reference. I was asking if displaycal does the same and in that case which one Manni selected.

In my experience those are called spectral corrections rather than matrix, which is what threw me off.

Those come from the manufacturer and are found in the stock manufacturer drivers of the Spyder 4/5 and i1D3.

In order to use a spectral correction, the meter must have an internal table knowing its own spectral distribution set by the manufacturer when it's created.  The SpyderX does not have this and is not compatible with spectral corrections.

Using one of the provided spectral corrections to check the Spyder5 doesn't really make sense since Autocal might use no spectral correction, or I would more likely assume that JVC has included their own spectral correction for the Spyder5, but of course are unable to do so for the SpyderX.

Problem is we will probably never truly know if autocal does or does not use a spectral correction with the Spyder5, so checking it with HCFR or DisplayCAL, choosing no spectral correction might be right, but it may also be wrong.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 13, 2019, 11:04:43 PM
The issue with colorHCFR is that you must select one correction matrix (that’s how it calls it). I guess that “General” means no correction, but I am not sure. They are general purpose matrices for specific type of devices (led, wide led, etc) in case you can’t create your own custom correction matrix with a reliable spectrometer as a reference. At least the deviations due to the device get corrected, not the inaccuracy of the meter.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: SirMaster on November 13, 2019, 11:41:10 PM
Since you can select no correction in DisplayCAL you could compare that to HCFR general or whatever it's called and see if they are the same.

I am pretty sure the general or 1st drop down correction option is essentially no correction in HCFR.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: Manni on November 14, 2019, 02:19:50 AM
Please could you take the off -topic HCFR / DisplayCAL discussion to PM or to another thread? Thanks.

@Cyberpaul, you need to read my posts more carefully.

I don't use DisplayCAL. The measurements I've posted are made with Lightspace, as indicated.

Obviously I wasn't using a correction matrix, it would be pointless otherwise.

The measurements show the difference between the meters, nothing else.

However, you can't compare the measurements from Autocal and the measurements from Lightspace directly simply because they don't use the same patterns. The autocal uses the JVC Internal patterns, Lightspace was using madTPG. DisplayCAL or HCFR could be using different patterns still (for example their internal ones). Depending on the settings, the GPU, the driver, the OS, this can induce further differences. The only valid comparison between two meters is with the same software, using the same patterns / video chain.

There can also be differences due to different drivers if a calibration software doesn't use the windows standard driver, which is the case with DisplayCAL/HCFR as they might be using Argyll driver.

Anyway, let's keep the discussion on topic, I only use different software to provide data related to the Autocal.

I will do more tests when I get a version of Calman supporting the Spyder X, as Lightspace is pretty much useless and not very ergonomic for this kind of work.

In the meantime, feel free to provide measurements, but stop requesting more work, explanations,especially when you haven't read the information already provided properly.

Again I don't have the time to answer off-topic questions or to correct all the incorrect assumptions or statement made recently in the thread.
Title: Re: JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9
Post by: CyberPaul on November 14, 2019, 02:41:10 AM
Please read my posts more carefu