Banned at AVSForum

[DavidHir]

I hate sheen and sparkle.  Love my ST100 screen after owning the Da-Lite HD Pro 1.1, 0.9 and having samples of the Caradas as well as the  ST130.  Now, my screen is only 9 feet wide and my room is painted/carpeted black, so I get enough brightness from my RS440.  However, if I had a very large screen I would probably choose to bypass HDR and go with SDR + 2020 for UHD BD as I despise sparkle and sheen that much.  However, it is very much a preferential/individual type of thing.  The Da-Lite HD Pro 1.1 was rather distracting, but some people in that thread thought I was nuts and claimed it had zero sparkle and sheen.  It was almost like trying to argue with a certain dog about it. lol

[darinp]

So I see now that Brilliant Color (with RGB/RGBY) color wheels now expands gamut and is more accurate for Rec.2020 content, and increases brightness too!    I suppose on an RGBY wheel it might expand it a tad (depends on how saturated the Yellow is) but some folks clearly don't understand how these things work.

Surely if BC actually produced a wider, more accurate gamut while being brighter, everyone would be using it all the time...

Yep. Sad that people like Ruined get away with their misinformation.

I asked Ruined some clarifying questions in the ACER VL7860 thread and he basically admitted that he won't answer my questions because he said it is never productive.

Everybody starts with no knowledge on subject matters and everybody makes mistakes, but there are clearly some people who don't really care if they post misinformation and will do everything they can to admit that they made a mistake.

Ruined is pretty clueless on this subject matter, which is why he has to resort to not answering any question that would clarify his position.

--Darin

[Dylan Seeger]

Wouldn't the primary colors need to be filtered by a yellow notch filter? I don't see how that can happen with the yellow portion of the color wheel is fixed in position and never actually "filters" the primary colors. Brilliant color on most DLP units simply allows for color wheel segment overlap to occur. More mirror "on" time at the expense of color accuracy to boost brightness. Real brilliant color is rare. There have only been a handful of real RGB-RGBY color wheel DLP units released. Most of them were when Brilliant Color was first released and most were found in 1080p single chip DLP Sim2 units. When's the last time anyone had released a DLP unit with such a color wheel?

What is Ruined's explanation at how this would work?

[Tom Bley]

Yep. Sad that people like Ruined get away with their misinformation.

I asked Ruined some clarifying questions in the ACER VL7860 thread and he basically admitted that he won't answer my questions because he said it is never productive.

Everybody starts with no knowledge on subject matters and everybody makes mistakes, but there are clearly some people who don't really care if they post misinformation and will do everything they can to admit that they made a mistake.

Ruined is pretty clueless on this subject matter, which is why he has to resort to not answering any question that would clarify his position.

--Darin

Darin, I don't think you're getting through to Runt.   

[ask4me2]

The proper way to brightness match is in an A/B is by shelf mounting the brighter projector higher up until it reaches the same lumens off an HP screen, because the HP screen causes extreme gain loss moving it up or left/right.

That's how I always did it in the past when I used to compare projectors ages ago. Haven't done a comparison in a long time, because not enough has changed for me to really care.

I already know the RS-4500 would be the winner for me, but I don't have that kind of budget. Per the Sony's, they are ruled out for me due to various reasons, as I think they are overpriced for what you get.

Now if they came way way down in price, I might consider one, but I'd likely just stick with a newer JVC.

I'm still going to wait for the 4k stuff to iron out before I get an upgrade, the last 2 upgrades I did were kind of mistimed, not that you can really time anything anyways...

Not sure i understand what a HP screen is, and if a setup with the brighter projector getting a lower screengain having a bigger offset and use of lens-shift etc. is a good idea.

[Dylan Seeger]

Not sure i understand what a HP screen is, and if a setup with the brighter projector getting a lower screengain having a bigger offset and use of lens-shift etc. is a good idea.

A "HP" screen is a (now-discontinued) Da-Lite High Power screen. The screen material is retro-reflective which is very different to most screen materials which are angular-reflective. Due to the special optical coating this screen material can do up to 2.4-2.8 gain (depending on which revision of the screen you have) without excessive artifacts (like a large amount of sheen or sparkles). But the unique optical coating means that projector placement to get all that gain has to be ideal. Ideally you want the projector just over your head to achieve optimal results. The further you or the projector move off axis from center screen the less gain you'll get. The optimal viewing cone is only like 10 degrees or something very narrow like that iirc. What coderguy is saying is that a brighter projector can be brightness matched to a less bright projector by moving it more off-axis than the other less bright projector.

[ericglo]

I just realized that it has been about 15 years since Darin showed Tryg the HP and a star was born.

[ask4me2]

A "HP" screen is a (now-discontinued) Da-Lite High Power screen. The screen material is retro-reflective which is very different to most screen materials which are angular-reflective. Due to the special optical coating this screen material can do up to 2.4-2.8 gain (depending on which revision of the screen you have) without excessive artifacts (like a large amount of sheen or sparkles). But the unique optical coating means that projector placement to get all that gain has to be ideal. Ideally you want the projector just over your head to achieve optimal results. The further you or the projector move off axis from center screen the less gain you'll get. The optimal viewing cone is only like 10 degrees or something very narrow like that iirc. What coderguy is saying is that a brighter projector can be brightness matched to a less bright projector by moving it more off-axis than the other less bright projector.

Thanks for the explanation Dylan Seeger, The HP screen may be a good brightness matching solution if the gain drops at the same rate over the entire projected picture.
"retro-reflective" sounds to me like something from the Airwolf TV series with the advanced prototype supersonic helicopter with stealth capabilities and silent mode etc. 

[darinp]

Wouldn't the primary colors need to be filtered by a yellow notch filter? I don't see how that can happen with the yellow portion of the color wheel is fixed in position and never actually "filters" the primary colors.

I'm pretty sure that Ruined thought that BC with a yellow segment on the colorwheel and a yellow notch filter did similar things, but they are complete opposites. One lets more yellow light through and one lets less yellow light through.

Brilliant color on most DLP units simply allows for color wheel segment overlap to occur.

There are 2 kinds like you say. Colors other than RGB on the colorwheel, and turning the mirrors on during the spoke time.

It looks to me like the new laser 1528p+eShift (what some call 4K UHD) projectors have RGBY colorwheels and reports I've read are that they run at 2x.

Sometimes it is hard for me to tell if Ruined is mostly clueless, or if he is just trying to keep from having to admit that he was wrong.

He keeps repeating that BC gives you more light for HDR, but ignores the part where I point out that only some colors get brighter. Adding a yellow segment on a colorwheel and then tightening up the filters for R and G actually results in less light for R and G. It helps push the R and G on the triangle out further, but at the expense of luminance for them.

He seems to have completely ignored the part where I mentioned that HDR isn't just about making white and yellow brighter, HDR is supposed to have brighter R, G, and B also. That isn't to say that these BC techniques might not be worth it overall, but they come at a cost.

--Darin

[stanger89]

Wouldn't the primary colors need to be filtered by a yellow notch filter?

The way BC can expand gamut, is you can put in a yellow segment that's more saturated than the result of the green and red.  Of course you end up with a quadrilateral shaped gamut instead of a triangle.

And of course yellow really isn't where gamut needs to be expanded.  Most of the new area that DCI P3 and Rec.2020 bring are in the green and cyan areas.

When's the last time anyone had released a DLP unit with such a color wheel?

It seems the new laser "4K" DLPs are using RGBY wheels.  At least the Optoma is.  For some reason I thought the Acer was RGBRGB but now people are saying it's RGBY too.

What is Ruined's explanation at how this would work?

He doen't have an explanation, it's just the typical, anything DLP does is better.  Or more accurately anything Optoma does is better.  Like how low contrast is better because it's more like the theater.

I'm pretty sure that Ruined thought that BC with a yellow segment on the colorwheel and a yellow notch filter did similar things, but they are complete opposites. One lets more yellow light through and one lets less yellow light through.

Funny, see I was still giving him the benefit of the doubt...  I was assuming he meant that the yellow segment could pull yellow out (more saturated), but you might be right, he might think that RGBY is the same as RGB+Yellow Notch.  Or, more likely, he doesn't have a clue and will just say anything that his favored DLP projector does is better.  It will be funny when the UHZ75 comes out next year with a 4x RGBRGB wheel and his story changes completely.

Sometimes it is hard for me to tell if Ruined is mostly clueless, or if he is just trying to keep from having to admit that he was wrong.

I think it's both, I think he's clueless, and will say anything to make DLP sound good/viable.  When you can tease out of him what he really thinks, his personal position seems to be that the only things that matter are Laser, Brightness, and Sharpness, and probably in that order.  He seems to really think his priorities are "right" and that everyone else should follow them, and he'll say anything to make those priorities seem best/right.

He keeps repeating that BC gives you more light for HDR, but ignores the part where I point out that only some colors get brighter. Adding a yellow segment on a colorwheel and then tightening up the filters for R and G actually results in less light for R and G. It helps push the R and G on the triangle out further, but at the expense of luminance for them.

In "defense" of Dave, who seems to be the sole basis for Runt's whole treatise on BC, my guess is this:

The UHZ65 isn't terribly bright when calibrated correctly, both the UHD60 and UHD65 lost about 2/3 of their rated brightness when calibrated and were under 1000 Lumens.  That's OK for SDR, but not near enough for HDR.  So my guess is, Dave (who seems to calibrate mainly by eyerometer) found that the extra brightness with BC on was more beneficial for HDR than the negative of having the colors out of balance.

[Peter Parker]

There was a guy on a UK forum with a DLP pj who was saying that he didn't want anything better than a commercial theatre could provide, and that included contrast because he believed that because a director and DOP were shooting for commercial theatre with DLP projectors, and not for a domestic JVC, he didn't need anything better, like a JVC. I think Darin participated in that thread and was as equally bemused by his comments - he asked him if projector A provided a more pleasing image, and projector B ticked more boxes for matching a commercial theatre, Darin (like most people) said he would choose projector A. This guy said he'd do the opposite.

Then about two months later he was waxing lyrical about how much better his Sony 40 was with its better blacks and contrast. He tended to have the attitude that nothing was better than what he had so would argue against anything that was considered better, until he had it too, then it was his new benchmark and new standpoint. When questioned about his new Sony and what made him upgrade, he refused to answer. I'm sure it's not the same guy but maybe they are related?

[AVSCraig]

" calibrate mainly by eyerometer " - I like it. Although I think the correct term is " Eye - O - Meter " . 

[Dylan Seeger]

Thanks for the explanation Dylan Seeger, The HP screen may be a good brightness matching solution if the gain drops at the same rate over the entire projected picture.
"retro-reflective" sounds to me like something from the Airwolf TV series with the advanced prototype supersonic helicopter with stealth capabilities and silent mode etc. 

From any stationary viewing position brightness uniformity looks good with the HP material. However, if you were to get up and walk away from the screen you can definitely see the gain roll off as you move further and further away. HP screens were very popular 5+ years ago when people were looking to have a large screen paired with a high contrast projector. Before about 5 years ago, you couldn't really have both. You had to choose either high brightness or high contrast. The HP screen material let you have both given you set things up properly. But now-a-days we're spoiled with our high brightness and high contrast JVC, Sony and Epson projectors. But I suppose if you want a better HDR experience an HP screen can still make a lot of sense for better peak white brightness. But as I said previously, after seeing how great a reference unity gain screen like my ElunVision or the ST100 looks, I don't think I can go back. At this point I would rather go with a smaller screen to keep the image as artifact free as possible. Not that the HP screen was particularly bad with things like texture, sheen or sparkles, but it can't hold a candle to the unity gain screen materials.

[stanger89]

So I see Runt linked Kraine's review of the UHZ65.  Surprise suprise, it's nowhere near it's advertised 3000 Lumens calibrated.  The table he posted showed it only doing 1150 Lumens Calibrated. 

Not sure why anyone's surprised, it's exactly like the UHD's, about 1/3 the claimed Lumens once calibrated.  Of course it also throws doubt on some of the comments from folks who sell these things in the other forum too, since and RS540, which is about the same price, is about 50% brighter, 10x the contrast and full DCI-P3.

Maybe there's still a high margin on these things since reality seemingly hasn't derailed the hype train yet.

[AVSMike]

So I see Runt linked Kraine's review of the UHZ65.  Surprise suprise, it's nowhere near it's advertised 3000 Lumens calibrated.  The table he posted showed it only doing 1150 Lumens Calibrated. 

Not sure why anyone's surprised, it's exactly like the UHD's, about 1/3 the claimed Lumens once calibrated.  Of course it also throws doubt on some of the comments from folks who sell these things in the other forum too, since and RS540, which is about the same price, is about 50% brighter, 10x the contrast and full DCI-P3.

Maybe there's still a high margin on these things since reality seemingly hasn't derailed the hype train yet.

Margin is not better. I do not understand why a dealer would push these. As you say, image is not as good and they are not as bright as what you can get with other brands. It certainly is not because it is higher profit.