BenQ LK990 First Impressions

[AVSMike]

I just wanted to put out here that I have no doubt that the MadVR Envy or even a Radiance Pro puts out an absolutely incredible image, especially with DTM.  Of course, that was never in question and I have at least seen and used a Radiance Pro with DTM on this exact LK990 that I am now trying the LLDV 10,000 nit Dolby Vision tweak on.

I am not questioning those products in the least, one of which I have used and seen personally with my exact setup I still have now, yet you all seem to question me on something none of you have seen or used personally.  Now do you see the discrepancy and hypocrisy?

The Lumagen you used, was several generations old, as far as HDR tone mapping goes. Not even in the same galaxie compared to today's performance.

[HarperVision]

The Lumagen you used, was several generations old, as far as HDR tone mapping goes. Not even in the same galaxie compared to today's performance.

I can say the same for the settings I am discussing now as well.  Even so, I am sure it isn't in another galaxy as you so eloquently put it.  If I said that, this forum would explode!

[AVSMike]

I can say the same for the settings I am discussing now as well.  Even so, I am sure it isn't in another galaxy as you so eloquently put it.  If I said that, this forum would explode!

We are not talking about just a change of setting. Just like saying the out of the box HDR performance between the RS540 and the RS2000 is worlds apart. That is because the technology changed. 

[AVSCraig]

Well I would hope it does.....for $5,000 - $12,000 more!!!

Even then, I find it funny that you all rail on me for posting such subjective, adjective induced banter and excitement when I discuss my thoughts and feelings on what I have seen and done, yet it seems perfectly fine to post your own similarly based quoted subjective "opinions" and how that seems OK and unquestioned as long as it meets what you believe and supports your stance on the matter.

What projector is this on?  What are the settings being used for LLDV on both the HDFury and projector in question?  Is MadVR doing HDR to SDR tone mapping?  How can we just blindly accept this so called "review" without any details whatsoever, based on one man's exuberant posting of a device few have even seen?  Sound familiar?

I thought I read that you were getting an Envy as a beta unit.  If so, what are your personal thoughts on this?

I bet if I had MadVR/Envy here I could make them extremely close in image quality on the LK990, and not the 1 million light years ahead as this "review" seems to make it out to be.

BTW, I have my setup for LLDV pretty much plug and play now as well.  The only exception is the occasional contrast adjustment up or down depending on the material, which is very easy to do.

I personally don't give these non reviews any weight. I'm waiting for more scientific un-biased tests / comparisons. 

[Dylan Seeger]

Dave, no offense, but you have just as little experience as the others posting, if not less. You haven't seen current Lumagen and madVR DTM, you haven't had a current JVC or Sony and you haven't compared these projectors in the same room at the same time. So I ask you as you've asked others: how can we blindly trust what you say to be correct? Some of us have more experience than you do and yet you want to tell us "if you only knew". The hypocrisy is palpable.

I've had a few low contrast DLPs come though here lately and while DTM made a big difference, it was still no where near enough to make the image competitive to the current Sony and JVC projectors. I'm sure DV into the LK990 helps in a similar enough way to DTM, though others say less.

[HarperVision]

We are not talking about just a change of setting. Just like saying the out of the box HDR performance between the RS540 and the RS2000 is worlds apart. That is because the technology changed.

See, you are fundamentally not understanding or reading what I wrote.  "Settings" was probably a bad choice of words, but I have posted what I am talking about numerous times here now.

It isn't the settings I use, per se'.  It is the very real difference it makes to the resultant image (on the LK990 specifically) when you change the custom DV Data Data block (do you understand what that is?) from something like what you'd think it should be, like the max nits of your display or a known custom tone curve like 1,000 nits, to basically telling the source to be "wide open" and send all its got with a custom 10,000 nit (notice the extra zero?  Perhaps you hadn't before?) max luminance (nits) setting in the HDF.  That, along with sending the full native Dolby Vision essentially is like using a whole new technology when compared to the "old way" of doing it with custom or straight 1,000 nit HDR curves or converting from HDR BT2020 to SDR BT2020, while only being able to feed it HDR10, not full native dolby vision.

So, the technology changed here too.  It used to use straight HDR, tone mapped to the LK990 using an equivalent HDR curve to match the parameters of the tone map being used.  Then you just used the available settings in the LK990 and UB820 to create the best image possible with what you have.

Now it uses an HDFury Vertex2 (*new technology), Dolby Vision/LLDV (*new technology discovery for any HDR display), Custom DV Data Block (*new adjustable technology) using the least aggressive and most wide open HDR tone curve available on the LK990 so as to allow the purest HDR/DV signal to pass through almost unmolested, with the exception of what you tweak into a correct state based on the source material, using the contrast (sometimes) and brightness (once).

[HarperVision]

Dave, no offense, but you have just as little experience as the others posting, if not less. You haven't seen current Lumagen and madVR DTM, you haven't had a current JVC or Sony and you haven't compared these projectors in the same room at the same time. So I ask you as you've asked others: how can we blindly trust what you say to be correct? Some of us have more experience than you do and yet you want to tell us "if you only knew". The hypocrisy is palpable......

Sorry, but I do take offense to the demeaning and condescending replies to almost every single post of mine. I believe anyone here would feel the same if the same thing happened to them when all they're trying to do is share something they deem is worthy of further consideration and discussion, without judgement and personal attacks if said individuals haven't even seen the results of the topic in question.  But then again, I am just a clown, so it's OK to act that way towards me, right?

In case you don't understand why I feel like all the posts to me are demeaning and condescending, to put it into perspective with today's current events, if someone talked to and responded to Dr. Anthony Fauci or Deborah Berks as if they were some fresh recruit out of med school on their first residency position instead of with the knowledge and understanding which they bring with many, many years of experience to the table, which gives credence to what they say without having to always hand out their resume all the time and they're given the benefit of the doubt based on their long standing knowledge of the topic at hand, in their case infectious diseases and the spread of them, then I am sure they would feel as though they were "demeaned, offended and condescended upon", as anyone would in such a situation.  In my case, I explain below........

As far as the experience comment, I am talking about overall experience in this field, not just a singular experience of a single topic under discussion.  I venture to say that I have much more experience in this field than anyone posting here.  I have been evaluating and teaching both the student and the technology, in broadcast, video and audio, in the commercial, consumer, rental & staging and government realms for well over 30 years (1987).  You?

I wasn't asking you to blindly trust this exact technology and tweak that I am discussing.  I was asking for the benefit of the doubt that seems to be afforded to so many others but not me (as long as it matches your position, like the ridiculous Envy quote woofer posted), even though as I stated above I have 30+ years of experience in this field and I know what a good video image looks like and what acceptable (not laughable) blacks and contrast look like as well, so I can judge the ENTIRE video signal's attributes as a whole and can come to a COMPLETE conclusion on whether what I am seeing is OVERALL the best HDR/DV image I can see in this scenario of home theater projection, without biasing my decision to contrast and blacks levels as being the ONLY deciding factors on which is best.  That is of course subjective, and by now you've all revealed your "subjective" opinions.

On the subject of comparisons and experience with this particular setup and tweak, I do have more experience with it, as none of you have EVEN ONCE done this on an LK990, or any other display for that matter.  I have at least had a recent Sony here, a VW885ES, unlike what you stated Dylan.  I also had a Lumagen Radiance Pro with DTM and used it on this exact LK990.  And no, I do not agree in the least that the difference between the version of DTM I had is that much of a difference to what is out now.  Any more than the continuing advances made with the HDFury devices and customizing and modifying and tweaking what can be done in those with LLDV as compared to when I first discovered this ability using a Sony A1 OLED EDID.  Sure, it is "improved and different", but not fundamentally so.  The basis of which are still blacks without crushing and whites without blooming, all the while maintaining each frame/scene without the same crushing or blooming while showing proper steps and levels of color and luminance as HDR provides.

I also have an LG OLED C65.  I use it to watch the same scenes I test on this LK990/HDF/LLDV setup as a comparison to what is thought to be the best consumer representation of HDR/DV in a flat panel today.  I can say without doubt that OVERALL the HDR/DV video image on the LK990 certainly holds its own and is FAR from laughable.

I am not even the one comparing it to JVC or Sony anyway.  I have only said it is better than my old way and it's the best that I have ever seen in my home theater. I am only countering everyone's untried and untested opinions here which state that it simply can't look good based on something they witnessed previously, which isn't even close to the same as what is being talked about now.  Would I love to do this exact thing using a last generation JVC or Sony?  You betcha, and if it was better than what I am doing now I would say so!!!  In fact, that's maybe the most important reason I started this discussion, so hopefully you guys would see it for what it can be and then try it on your JVCs and Sonys or whatever other projector or HDR only display you may have on hand and report back.  There are many, many others on the LLDV threads on AVSF and AVF that support my position of this being a game changer, on just about every projector it has been tried on.  Many use both methods, DTM using MadVR or Radiance Pro for SDR and HDR10 and the LLDV mod for native Dolby Vision sources.  It doesn't have to be an either/or.

There is no hypocrisy here.  I have seen it and done it.  You have not.  It can't be anymore clear than that, can it?  Until you actually do it exactly as I have and then do an unbiased report on it, your opinions on it here are just that, untested and uninformed opinions, unlike mine which are from first hand experience in more ways than any of you.

....I've had a few low contrast DLPs come though here lately and while DTM made a big difference, it was still no where near enough to make the image competitive to the current Sony and JVC projectors. I'm sure DV into the LK990 helps in a similar enough way to DTM, though others say less.

Oh, so you have actually used an HDFury Vertex2, DIVA or Maestro to fool the source into sending a native Dolby Vision signal being fed to that "low contrast" DLP (not an LK990 I am sure), with a custom DV Data Block set to a max luminance of 10,000 nits, .0005 min luminance, LLDV, BT2020 custom color gamut points, etc., so you know first hand how this looks then?

As I have said countless times here too.  I had a "low contrast" DLP here at the same time with the LK990, doing the exact same process described in my paragraph just above, and it was NOT the same......at all!  That "low contrast" DLP was the BenQ HT9060.  That DLP was from the same manufacturer using the same chassis with basically just the light engine and the lens being the main difference.  The SmartEco, Automatic Power Control (if it even has it), picture modes & settings and their HDR Tone Mapping are essentially identical, yet the resultant images are FAR from it, as I have just seen first hand!  So unless you personally used an LK990 with exactly the same external equipment and settings/tweaks, your prior experience with those "low contrast" DLPs are moot here.

[Dylan Seeger]

Dave, fair points, however, you downplaying the effectiveness of DTM vs LLDV is why I said you lack experience. It has nothing to do with your previous work with older displays and technologies. On top of calling what woofer posted as "ridiculous", despite if someone knows how to setup the LLDV hack they probably know how to set up a projector and DTM elsewhere, you try and label tone mapping as some sort of evil that could never achieve great results. So, as much as you'd like to play victim here, you've put on a pretty lengthy campaign to downplay the benefits of madVR/lumagen in favor of your LLDV hack. And when someone who's actually compared the two and came to a completely different conclusion, closer to what I've been stating all a long, you scoff it off completely as "ridiculous." Why is that?

For the millionth time, I am in no way saying LLDV looks bad. It's just that you've been trying to tout the performance of this specific projector as "as good or better" than the competition with your "if you only knew" comments. So whether you directly or indirectly state these things, the way you speak about this projector implies these things. That's why so many Sony/JVC vs LK990 comments are made.

[Javs]

Crikey!

What'd I miss??

BenQ LK990 First Impressions

[Dylan Seeger]

Crikey!

What'd I miss??

The same tired arguments typed out over and over. 

[AVSCraig]

Crikey!

What'd I miss??

BenQ LK990 First Impressions

That was a damn good fight scene !

[HarperVision]

Dave, fair points, however, you downplaying the effectiveness of DTM vs LLDV is why I said you lack experience.....

I'm not sure how you got that as the point of my posts?  It has nothing whatsoever to do with DTM vs LLDV, especially since LLDV is Dolby Vision, which is DTM!  The only reason anything remotely to do with tone mapping or DTM came up is because of your and other's statements about how display brightness doesn't matter, when it most certainly does, and I explained the reasons why.  If you disagree then you disagree why HDR/DV flat panels are universally considered better for HDR/DV, black floor notwithstanding as even good quality LCD UHD TVs are better overall for HDR/DV than projectors, as I have stated already.

...It has nothing to do with your previous work with older displays and technologies......

You just had to throw that in there, didn't you?  The condescension never ends with you does it, Dylan?  I have a TON of experience with all these new fangled gadgets and technology, Dylan.  I experiment with it on almost a daily basis for hours at a time.  I have since the beginning, creating custom curves and settings and many other cutting edge things, like discovering the LLDV hack to get Dolby Vision on home projectors in the first place!  How about you, Dylan?  I doubt you're in your theater room for hours every night trying new things and experimenting with out of the box thinking and new ideas.  Your responses have pretty much made that clear.

.... On top of calling what woofer posted as "ridiculous", despite if someone knows how to setup the LLDV hack they probably know how to set up a projector and DTM elsewhere, you try and label tone mapping as some sort of evil that could never achieve great results. So, as much as you'd like to play victim here, you've put on a pretty lengthy campaign to downplay the benefits of madVR/lumagen in favor of your LLDV hack. And when someone who's actually compared the two and came to a completely different conclusion, closer to what I've been stating all a long, you scoff it off completely as "ridiculous." Why is that?......

See my prior response above.  It wasn't about DTM vs LLDV.....at all.  It is and always was about the LK990 and what you can get out of it using LLDV, not as a comparison to DTM (even though they both are, btw), but as a low cost alternative to people who can't afford a multi-thousand dollar video processor, or have the time, patience or care to fiddle with a PC.

I said his post was ridiculous in terms of the context with which he was using it in and how ridiculous the tone of it was with no real meat or substance, the same thing you all acuse me of, btw, but say NOTHING of it when it is by someone who coincidentally matches your position on the subject.  Were it I or anyone else that made a similar type of quoted post, it would have been torn to shreds by you and everyone, and you know it.

It was also ridiculous because this was said in reference to an LK990 and what it does on it, you know, the actual topic of this very thread!  His post had nothing whatsoever to do with an LK990 and his impressions weren't even based on an LK990.

I tried everything from custom curves, HDR Optimizers, DTM from a Lumagen Radiance Pro on the LK990 and then tried LLDV on the LK990 and on the HT9060, and I chose LLDV as the superior choice and image at the time on the LK990! You know, again the very topic of this thread.

.......For the millionth time, I am in no way saying LLDV looks bad. It's just that you've been trying to tout the performance of this specific projector as "as good or better" than the competition with your "if you only knew" comments. So whether you directly or indirectly state these things, the way you speak about this projector implies these things. That's why so many Sony/JVC vs LK990 comments are made.

For the two millionth time, I am ONLY defending the incorrect bias towards THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR, which all of you come on and slam every chance you get with erroneous info clearly biased towards what YOU want to believe because as I sit here, the image in NO WAY looks as you folks portray it to look, namely because you don't know how to set THIS PARTICULAR PROJECTOR UP the correct way to take advantage of what it DOES offer, if anyone cares to actually read, understand and THINK outside their walled garden of "blacks and contrast are all that matters"!

You clearly once again didn't read where I clearly said I would love to see someone try this on Sony and JVC projectors, especially an RS4500/Z1!  That was also the meaning behind why I posted here again in the first place!  My dream projector right now is the JVC RS4500 for God's Sake, because it would give the benefits of ALL the things I am looking for right now! .........

...I am not even the one comparing it to JVC or Sony anyway.  I have only said it is better than my old way and it's the best that I have ever seen in my home theater. I am only countering everyone's untried and untested opinions here which state that it simply can't look good based on something they witnessed previously, which isn't even close to the same as what is being talked about now.  Would I love to do this exact thing using a last generation JVC or Sony?  You betcha, and if it was better than what I am doing now I would say so!!!  In fact, that's maybe the most important reason I started this discussion, so hopefully you guys would see it for what it can be and then try it on your JVCs and Sonys or whatever other projector or HDR only display you may have on hand and report back. There are many, many others on the LLDV threads on AVSF and AVF that support my position of this being a game changer, on just about every projector it has been tried on.  Many use both methods, DTM using MadVR or Radiance Pro for SDR and HDR10 and the LLDV mod for native Dolby Vision sources.  It doesn't have to be an either/or....

The "if you only knew" comment was in reply to how you were incorrectly referring to what you think this projector looks like, not in comparison to other projectors, per se'.  Here is a YouTube video that sort of shows how you and everyone thinks the LK990 looks (top image), and more like how I know it can look, or even better (bottom image), if you know how to optimize it properly:

[HarperVision]

Crikey!

What'd I miss??

The same tired arguments typed out over and over.

They had to be typed over and over again because certain readers have decided not to comprehend what was written, by choice or other agendas or motives.

You writing..."The same tired arguments"..... kind of proves my point, considering this is completely different than anything else discussed here previously.

[AVSMike]

Dave compare the two (RS2000 and LK990) in a good room, like others have, then come back and talk about it. 

[HarperVision]

Dave compare the two (RS2000 and LK990) in a good room, like others have, then come back and talk about it.

That really made me laugh!   OK then, in fairness.......

Mike, Dylan, Javs, woofer, anyone else,

Compare the RS2000 or any other good blacks, contrast only and nit starved projector to the LK990 setup the exact way I have done it, then come back and actually have something to say that has value other than your uninformed, untried and untested opinion of what I am talking about now on the LK990.

Also, let me get this straight.  Nobody is allowed to talk about the performance of their projectors on this site, unless they've had the one in question along with another, mass group think proclaimed best one in the room at the same time for comparison?  Gotcha Mike.  Now that I know the rules here, I will try to remember them.  After all, I am just a clown that doesn't know what good video looks like and all after 30+ years of doing this, and I don't have a best in class leading OLED 4K to compare to either.  Whew, glad I finally understood what all this hoopla was about!

Is there any particular reason you're making this ONLY about contrast and black levels?  Is it because that's all ya got, maybe?

This IS the LK990 thread last I checked, right?