JVC RS3000

[AVSMike]

Yes it is! LLDV is Profile 5 of the DOLBY VISION Standard Mike!

You’re just telling your display to use an ST2084 curve because that’s EXACTLY what DolbyVision/LLDV uses!

Please provide proof of what you’re saying.

Proof that it is the same as Dolby Vision? I  think that is up to you to prove, not me to disprove. The content being sent to the player is static. The player is then applying its own dynamic tone mapping to the content.

[AVSMike]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you say at one time you liked to apply HDR color mapping to SDR content?

[HarperVision]

Proof that it is the same as Dolby Vision? I  think that is up to you to prove, not me to disprove. The content being sent to the player is static. The player is then applying its own dynamic tone mapping to the content.

There is nothing to prove and the burden of proof is not on me. Profile 5 of the Dolby Vision spec is LLDV. It IS Dolby Vision. Your player has no idea that it isn’t connected to a DOLBY VISION capable Sony TV, the A1 OLED, because that’s what the HDFury is telling your player that it is. It is sending the exact same Dolby Vision signal it does to any Sony display.

All the processing is just done in the player/source, hence the name “Player LED”. This is the same processing done in the standard version of Dolby Vision in the display, but it’s just moved to the player to do instead. Then it sends the signal as a YCbCr ST2084 BT2020 signal to the display, which just uses that mode to display it instead of the regular DV processing which sends the signal disguised as an 8 bit RGB signal with enhancement layer. Our projectors just have to be in that mode to display it properly. The only caveat is/was that the player itself thought it was connected to the A1, so bases its processing on the A1’s luminance levels. All you have to do is make slight adjustments so it best presents itself on your lower nit projectors. This is now very easy to do with the latest HDFURY FW which allows you to customize the DV String parameters being sent to the player to use in its LLDV processing algorithm. 

I’m not sure what you mean about the source being static?  The source is native DolbyVision like that found in Dolby Vision UHD Blu-ray discs and streaming video from Netflix, etc. You can clearly see this as Dolby Vision end to end in these photos:

[HarperVision]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you say at one time you liked to apply HDR color mapping to SDR content?

OK, I’m correcting you. You’re wrong. Not sure where you got that from?

[Dylan Seeger]

Looking at the specs, Dolby indicates that Profile 5 has no enhancement layer. This means it's not providing dynamic tonemapping to the image. Basically, all you're getting is HDR10. What's the point in using this if HDR10 is available elsewhere? This seems like one of those bistreaming vs LPCM arguments. Profile 5 is how Netflix and other streaming services convert SDR to HDR, not add on to an existing HDR image.This is the only time it can be thought of as an "enhancement layer". In the end, you're still just getting HDR10 with nothing extra. I don't see the appeal here. Am I missing something?

Edit:
From:https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-vision/dolby-vision-profiles-levels.pdf

JVC RS3000

[HarperVision]

Looking at the specs, Dolby indicates that Profile 5 has no enhancement layer. This means it's not providing dynamic tonemapping to the image. Basically, all you're getting is HDR10. What's the point in using this if HDR10 is available elsewhere? This seems like one of those bistreaming vs LPCM arguments. Profile 5 is how Netflix and other streaming services convert SDR to HDR, not add on to an existing HDR image.This is the only time it can be thought of as an "enhancement layer". In the end, you're still just getting HDR10 with nothing extra. I don't see the appeal here. Am I missing something?

Edit:
From:https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-vision/dolby-vision-profiles-levels.pdf

JVC RS3000

Yes, you're missing something.

There is no enhancement layer left because it has already been used and incorporated into the end result signal inside the player, which is then output as LLDV with whatever DTM was incorprated from the DV Metadata embedded in the original DV file on the disc or streaming container.  You're basically getting what would normally be internal to the Dolby Vision monitor, where the processing is and used to be for the original versions of DV, which you see in your charts, the ones with enhancement layers.

This all happened before Sony and Dolby got together to come up with this profile version which allowed their high end TVs like the A1 OLED, which didn't have the processing power internally to pull off the regular DV version processing.  So they together came up with a way to do it in the player instead, which apparently with their X1 Extreme processor(?), which was able to do the proper processing there first, then send the already decoded and processed Dolby Vision signal over to the display in an easy enough format to display with its existing modes, which we now know is just a standard ST2084 curve and YCbCr BT2020. The only thing the player needs to know is what the Max Luminance (nits) of the display are, and now with the latest version of HDFury products, we can create custom strings to give it that.

These pages (attached) are from a DV pdf document describe the basic process:

https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1891.0;attach=4772
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1891.0;attach=4774
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1891.0;attach=4776



You are indeed getting the full Dolby Vision signal with its dynamic tone mapping based on the metadata.  The layers and metadata are just being used in the player with LLDV instead of in the display.  A very basic signal flow would be like this:

Original Dolby Vision w/ enhancement layers (RGB 8 bit encoded) decoded by the display:
Source file (RGB 8 bit encoded + Enhancement Layer)->Player->Player HDMI Output->HDMI Cable->Display HDMI Input->DV Decoder/Processor (~ICtCp to YCbCr/YUV ST2084)->Display Driver->Display's Screen

Original Dolby Vision w/ enhancement layers (RGB 8 bit encoded) decoded by the LLDV capable player:
Source file (RGB 8 bit encoded + Enhancement Layer)->Player->DV Decoder/Processor (~ICtCp to YCbCr/YUV ST2084)->Player HDMI Output->HDMI Cable->Display HDMI Input->Display Driver->Display's Screen

You're just moving where the decoding and processing is taking place.  That is all.  I guess a similar processing can be thought of as how a Dolby Digital signal can be either sent as the un-decoded bitstream to an AVR, which then breaks it down to its 5.1, 7.1, etc. audio channels for each speaker, or you can decode it in the player itself to its discreet PCM or analog channels and then send that to your AVR, putting the processing work on the player instead of the AVR.  As a matter of fact, that's how they came up with this LLDV Profile, by using the same thought process and technique as they did with multi-channel audio processing and signal distribution.

You can clearly see in the images I posted in my reply to Mike that it is using the Dolby Vision layer on the source as well as the output.  It is NOT using the HDR base layer only!  You can easily see the differences if you try this and play it each way.  An easy way to do this is to use something like a UB820 and tick the Dolby Vision box to ON, watch some native DV discs, then untick the DV box to OFF and watch the same scenes in regular HDR10 (without any other DTM solution engaged like on a JVC projector, Lumagen RP, MadVR, Envy, etc.).  You will also see the changes in the various display info menus where it goes from displaying all Dolby Vision info to showing HDR10.

[David Vaughn]

I have a Vertex and Panasonic 820, so I could do this with my RS2000, right? Now I just need the time to implement it and test. Can you point me to a post that has the instructions on what the settings need to be in the player, Vertex, and projector so I don't have to reinvent the wheel?

Thanks!

[HarperVision]

I have a Vertex and Panasonic 820, so I could do this with my RS2000, right? Now I just need the time to implement it and test. Can you point me to a post that has the instructions on what the settings need to be in the player, Vertex, and projector so I don't have to reinvent the wheel?

Thanks!

Links are already in the post I made before, here:
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1891.msg16561#msg16561 

HarperVision said:

I highly suggest you read these links for more info and reviews:

https://www.avforums.com/threads/dolby-vision-including-hdr10-conversion-w-dtm-on-projectors-yes.2254350/

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=58724442#/topics/3097934?page=1 

I would maybe just read the first few posts in those threads to get the basic premise, but then skip to the end and work back, finding the latest HDFury settings to try and skipping all the initial ones that ended up being superseded.

An easy start though is if you have just an original Vertex is to select the Custom EDID 5 on the Vertex, which is for a Sony A1 OLED, which has this LLDV capability.  When placed between your UB820 and AVR/RS2000, it will trick your UB820 into thinking it is connected to the Sony A1 so it will allow you to engage its Dolby Vision mode and and since it will sense as if you have a "Sony A1", it will use its built in LLDV processing instead of sending the RGB 8 bit FEL/MEL disguised DV signal.

One thing with the UB820 is that it won't convert any HDR10 or SDR HD to LLDV, which when setup properly can also look incredible when converted.  The UB820/9000 or Pioneer LX-500 can only process the native Dolby Vision sources to LLDV.  You would need something like an Oppo UDP-203/205 or Sony X700 or X800M2 to convert all sources, because they have options to force DV.

[Franin]

I have a Vertex and Panasonic 820, so I could do this with my RS2000, right? Now I just need the time to implement it and test. Can you point me to a post that has the instructions on what the settings need to be in the player, Vertex, and projector so I don't have to reinvent the wheel?

Thanks!

Hey Dave

im Intrested to see how you go. I haven’t got a vertex yet but would love to get your review on how it works with the RS2000.

[David Vaughn]

Links are already in the post I made before, here:
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1891.msg16561#msg16561



I would maybe just read the first few posts in those threads to get the basic premise, but then skip to the end and work back, finding the latest HDFury settings to try and skipping all the initial ones that ended up being superseded.

An easy start though is if you have just an original Vertex is to select the Custom EDID 5 on the Vertex, which is for a Sony A1 OLED, which has this LLDV capability.  When placed between your UB820 and AVR/RS2000, it will trick your UB820 into thinking it is connected to the Sony A1 so it will allow you to engage its Dolby Vision mode and and since it will sense as if you have a "Sony A1", it will use its built in LLDV processing instead of sending the RGB 8 bit FEL/MEL disguised DV signal.

One thing with the UB820 is that it won't convert any HDR10 or SDR HD to LLDV, which when setup properly can also look incredible when converted.  The UB820/9000 or Pioneer LX-500 can only process the native Dolby Vision sources to LLDV.  You would need something like an Oppo UDP-203/205 or Sony X700 or X800M2 to convert all sources, because they have options to force DV.

I probably won't get to this until later this week, but thanks for the help. I ended up getting rid of my Oppo in order to get the original tone mapping from the Panasonic. Bad move by me  I'll give it a go with the 820 though.

Thanks again!

[Dylan Seeger]

If anyone needs a Sony UltraHD Blu-ray player to take advantage of this, I have a Sony UBP-X700, X800M2, and X1100ES available.

[HarperVision]

I probably won't get to this until later this week, but thanks for the help. I ended up getting rid of my Oppo in order to get the original tone mapping from the Panasonic. Bad move by me I'll give it a go with the 820 though.

Thanks again!

Sounds good. I look forward to hearing your thoughts about it. 

[David Vaughn]

Sounds good. I look forward to hearing your thoughts about it.

Turns out the the Vertex doesn't have a Macro option for Dolby Vision, so you have to manually select the input (bummer). Regardless, I've downloaded the latest firmware and the BT2020 EDID profile, but I'm not sure where/how to load that, plus I'm not sure which boxes I need to "check" to get the proper output. If I'm reading it correctly, using the Sony EDID creates red push, which I don't want to have to calibrate out, if possible, so I'd like to test this manually to see if it's worth ordering a Vertex 2 to replace my current Vertex. Any chance you can post a screenshot or I can PM my email address so I can see how you have your Vertex (or Vertex 2) configured? 

[HarperVision]

Turns out the the Vertex doesn't have a Macro option for Dolby Vision, so you have to manually select the input (bummer). Regardless, I've downloaded the latest firmware and the BT2020 EDID profile, but I'm not sure where/how to load that, plus I'm not sure which boxes I need to "check" to get the proper output. If I'm reading it correctly, using the Sony EDID creates red push, which I don't want to have to calibrate out, if possible, so I'd like to test this manually to see if it's worth ordering a Vertex 2 to replace my current Vertex. Any chance you can post a screenshot or I can PM my email address so I can see how you have your Vertex (or Vertex 2) configured?

I no longer have a JVC projector, so I am not sure on the macros for them.  If I recall from reading though, you may need a Vertex2, Diva or Maestro for that, idk.

I have went back and looked at some old files from when I had a Vertex1, so I see you don't have to use just the Sony A1 EDID.  You can use AUTOMIX as well as Custom EDID 5 - Sony A1 LLDV.  Look at the screen shots I attached here from my old Vertex1.  I would try AUTOMIX with the check boxes you see I checked on there.  Make sure you actually select the AUTOMIX mode too.  In the screenshot I have the Custom EDID selected, where you can see Input 1 shows the Sony A1 EDID.

Then the other screenshot shows the HDR Custom Metadata Generator to make a custom EDID.  The boxes you want selected are as shown.

If you use the Custom Metadata with the BT2020 selected then I think this should alleviate any red push.  You can always try the default Sony A1 EDID just to see the differences.  The red push on faces isn't bad, but you can see all the benefits regardless.  You can contact Dominic Chan or Claw over on AVSF and they can help you with solutions on a JVC.

[David Vaughn]

Thanks....yes, Claw has been helping me out. I'll be able to test it tonight, but I need to ensure that there's an option on the macro screen in regard to a Dolby Vision signal...without that, it's a deal breaker (assuming everything looks good in my tests).