AVS Discussions
Projectors => Premium Projectors => Topic started by: AVSMike on July 20, 2018, 11:44:48 AM
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We will post projector information and pictures in this thread. If you have info on 2018 CEDIA projectors, please post here. We will have a general 2018 CEDIA thread posted in the news area for all products.
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Main Cedia info thread is here - https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1796.0
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I'm curious to see what Epson has to offer. I would love to see them come out with something native 4K for under $10,000.
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I'm curious to see what Epson has to offer. I would love to see them come out with something native 4K for under $10,000.
I'd be happy to see anything new from Epson - and not just a " re-tread ".
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I'd be happy to see anything new from Epson - and not just a " re-tread ".
The same could be said of Sony. They've taken essentially one projector and made a whole line up from it. Just offering different wattage lamps and taking away a few things in software but asking up to $10,000 more for "everything" to be included. That's essentially what the 285ES vs the 675ES is.
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At least Epson is adding 18Gbps HDMI to the 5040.
http://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blog/index.php/21/07/2018/epson-eh-tw9400-et-eh-tw9400w-rumeurs-ifa-2018/ (http://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blog/index.php/21/07/2018/epson-eh-tw9400-et-eh-tw9400w-rumeurs-ifa-2018/)
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(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/38300193_10216831004228454_5363976182003924992_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=88b880c861612a046f216e0cff0552fb&oe=5BC8CEA8)
;D Maybe ? ! ;D
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We'll see. I can only imagine what the price is going to be. This is probably meant to be direct competition to the RS4500. So an MSRP of $35,000? Sony really needs to get native contrast above 20,000:1 at full brightness if they want to take away sales from potential RS4500 shoppers. I still won't own a Sony 4K projector at any price until they fix the issues with banding and posterization as I feel it degrades the onscreen resolution to the point where I have a hard time considering it to actually be a native 4K image. And for the asking price of some of these Sony 4K models it's a real shame they haven't fixed it. I know Kris Deering has mentioned seeing this issue with the 885ES still. I think it's only a new generation panel and panel driver that can fix this issue. I still feel this is the main reason e-shift on the JVCs gives a similar level of subjective fine detail with 4K content.
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We'll see. I can only imagine what the price is going to be. This is probably meant to be direct competition to the RS4500. So an MSRP of $35,000? Sony really needs to get native contrast above 20,000:1 at full brightness if they want to take away sales from potential RS4500 shoppers. I still won't own a Sony 4K projector at any price until they fix the issues with banding and posterization as I feel it degrades the onscreen resolution to the point where I have a hard time considering it to actually be a native 4K image. And for the asking price of some of these Sony 4K models it's a real shame they haven't fixed it. I know Kris Deering has mentioned seeing this issue with the 885ES still. I think it's only a new generation panel and panel driver that can fix this issue. I still feel this is the main reason e-shift on the JVCs gives a similar level of subjective fine detail with 4K content.
Yep, I saw pretty bad banding during a demo of Planet Earth 2 via the 885es. Besides that it looked stunning.
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Just my opinion, but I think Sony just charges way too much for what they offer in their 4K projectors...and certainly at their prices, these issues should not exist.
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Unfortunately it's their brand name that most people are willing to pay more for. That has diminished a bit over the years, but regular consumers don't mind paying a bit more just to own something with the Sony name on it. I've seen this attitude discussed a bit on the other forum regarding their projectors too.
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Unfortunately it's their brand name that most people are willing to pay more for. That has diminished a bit over the years, but regular consumers don't mind paying a bit more just to own something with the Sony name on it. I've seen this attitude discussed a bit on the other forum regarding their projectors too.
Ugh, I tell you, I kinda miss yours and Andreas' 'Back up' over there. Vultures...
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It's refreshing to not having an account over there. Far fewer petty arguments and far less time wasted on people who don't want to listen to reason anyways.
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It does get ridiculous. Mention an issue on a Sony projector and out of the woodwork they come and start saying it is not true. Every projector has some warts. Heck we all know what warts the JVC's have. It is discussed often times in the JVC threads. But you can't discuss in the Sony threads, because it turns into a battle. It is not like anyone has ever said the Sony 4K projectors are not good projectors, because they are very good projectors. Heck the quality of projector that you can get from JVC and Sony these days is fantastic.
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I notice a certain number of Sony owners are what I would call "emotional buyers". They cannot stay objective at all. Sony is great and so is the projector and there is nothing more. As Seegs alluded, surely the Sony brand name plays a big factor where as they shove aside data, facts - I notice a lot of them don't even calibrate properly. If you try to point these things out (even tactfully) it leads to backlash as if you are personally insulting them and then they respond emotionally and often intellectually dishonestly.
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I have some serious reservations believing that some of these guys have compared current JVC's to current Sony's. It's usually the ones who claim massive advantages in detail on the Sony units who I don't believe. Now, I'm not going to say I haven't seen differences in apparent resolution between the two, I have, but 95%+ of the time the two images look identical to me when it comes to apparent resolution. But the differences in brightness, contrast and color do make an apparent difference most of the time between these two brands. This is why I own a JVC. But if things were flipped, I'd be a Sony owner.
To bring this back to an on topic post, I think if this is the year JVC comes out with relatively affordable native 4K projectors, I can't see why anyone would be buying a Sony projector if JVC is able to keep close to or better the other aspects of image quality JVC projectors already have (brightness, decent lens quality, contrast, good video processing, ect). What other than "native 4K", and I put that in quotes on purpose due to some of the inherent issues Sony has with their 4K panels, do Sony projectors have? At similar price points the Sony's are dimmer, louder, softer, less dynamic looking due to less contrast, have less I/O capabilities and video processing options (no 18Gbps ports, issues with 4K 60p content), worse with 3D and I personally think the build quality is less. But, hey, at least it's native 4K.
I really don't want to hate on Sony, but they make it easy. When JVC does come out with more affordable native 4K projectors Sony will be forced to do something. Consumers in the projector market seem to be a bit more informed on what's what from my experience. A lot of them go on to forums and check to see what projector is best at a given price point. Their brand name won't be enough to keep sales up if they don't improve image quality in other areas when JVC has cheaper native 4K projectors.
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I have some serious reservations believing that some of these guys have compared current JVC's to current Sony's. It's usually the ones who claim massive advantages in detail on the Sony units who I don't believe. Now, I'm not going to say I haven't seen differences in apparent resolution between the two, I have, but 95%+ of the time the two images look identical to me when it comes to apparent resolution. But the differences in brightness, contrast and color do make an apparent difference most of the time between these two brands. This is why I own a JVC. But if things were flipped, I'd be a Sony owner.
To bring this back to an on topic post, I think if this is the year JVC comes out with relatively affordable native 4K projectors, I can't see why anyone would be buying a Sony projector if JVC is able to keep close to or better the other aspects of image quality JVC projectors already have (brightness, decent lens quality, contrast, good video processing, ect). What other than "native 4K", and I put that in quotes on purpose due to some of the inherent issues Sony has with their 4K panels, do Sony projectors have? At similar price points the Sony's are dimmer, louder, softer, less dynamic looking due to less contrast, have less I/O capabilities and video processing options (no 18Gbps ports, issues with 4K 60p content), worse with 3D and I personally think the build quality is less. But, hey, at least it's native 4K.
I really don't want to hate on Sony, but they make it easy. When JVC does come out with more affordable native 4K projectors Sony will be forced to do something. Consumers in the projector market seem to be a bit more informed on what's what from my experience. A lot of them go on to forums and check to see what projector is best at a given price point. Their brand name won't be enough to keep sales up if they don't improve image quality in other areas when JVC has cheaper native 4K projectors.
I now have owned a Sony projector (665es) and a JVC RS4500. Granted comparing the two is unjust given their respective places in the market at the times I purchased them. But I had issues with both of them and the difference in their customer service is night and day to put it simply. Sony just deosn't care about their customers individually b/c they have so many of them and JVC does. I had two RS 4500s replaced for two separate OOTB issues that were present and JVC only need video and confirmation from my dealer for both to swiftly replace them with brand new units. No hassle, no service repair and I wasn't required to return the defective unit first before they sent out replacements so I was never left without a projector.
Sony hid behind vague fine print to force me to keep a clearly defective projector that could have been repaired and that will always leave a bad taste in my mouth. So if I am to ever buy Sony again it better really be a good product.
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Getting up into August. About the time we start hearing a few tidbits of information. Hopefully we hear something very soon. :)
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Hi All.
Thought I would pop in over here as I had been removed from a discussion (possibly more than one) for just trying to get a bit of balance.
Funnily enough, on balance, I shouldn't have bothered. ;) :D
Anyway, glad to be here as the discussions over here seem a little more 'grown up' shall we say? :)
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Hi All.
Thought I would pop in over here as I had been removed from a discussion (possibly more than one) for just trying to get a bit of balance.
Funnily enough, on balance, I shouldn't have bothered. ;) :D
Anyway, glad to be here as the discussions over here seem a little more 'grown up' shall we say? :)
Welcome. We are going to try and post live pictures from Cedia this year ( sending them to Alan G. to post ), so we can keep you guys up to date in real time regarding anything new !
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I now have owned a Sony projector (665es) and a JVC RS4500. Granted comparing the two is unjust given their respective places in the market at the times I purchased them. But I had issues with both of them and the difference in their customer service is night and day to put it simply. Sony just deosn't care about their customers individually b/c they have so many of them and JVC does. I had two RS 4500s replaced for two separate OOTB issues that were present and JVC only need video and confirmation from my dealer for both to swiftly replace them with brand new units. No hassle, no service repair and I wasn't required to return the defective unit first before they sent out replacements so I was never left without a projector.
Sony hid behind vague fine print to force me to keep a clearly defective projector that could have been repaired and that will always leave a bad taste in my mouth. So if I am to ever buy Sony again it better really be a good product.
it's unfortunate that you got two defective units to begin with, but it sounded like they finally sent a stellar unit. I've only owned one Sony - a VW600. Never had any problems with it, but it may have had contrast degradation going on when I sold it. I guess I've been lucky - I've owned an NEC HT1000, an Optoma H76 and H79, a Digital Projection dVision 1080p, a Sim2 Lumis Host ( for 7 1/2 years ), a JVC RS600, the Sony VW600 and now the RS4500. Never had a need to get servicing / warranty repair on any of them myself. I have helped customers get warranty repair and JVC is 2nd to none. Sim2 is good too. Haven't had much interaction with Sony support myself.
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Welcome. We are going to try and post live pictures from Cedia this year ( sending them to Alan G. to post ), so we can keep you guys up to date in real time regarding anything new !
Sounds cool.
Looking forward to seeing what is on offer even if I don’t plan on changing my VW760 quite yet. :)
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I notice a certain number of Sony owners are what I would call "emotional buyers"...
That sounds like some kind of politically correct name for "obnoxious little fan boys"! ;) ::)
"Ignore" is your friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had to logon to give Mike and Craig a "Like" and found out Arrow was on my ignore list! ;D ;)
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That sounds like some kind of politically correct name for "obnoxious little fan boys"! ;) ::)
"Ignore" is your friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had to logon to give Mike and Craig a "Like" and found out Arrow was on my ignore list! ;D ;)
Really? Why? What did I do? ;) :'(
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JVC's New D-ILA Projector Teaser:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKsyJBc-Axc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKsyJBc-Axc)
;)
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That really is a tease! ;D :P
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Yes it is. From what little we have to go on.
1. Not same shape as 4500, so I don't think we are looking at 4500 replacement.
2. I think a model above the 4500 would probably use the same housing as the 4500, so I don't think it is a model above the 4500.
So this is a new housing. Will it be a model right above the RS640? Is this the new housing for the lamp based line? Will this be native 4K? Will this have USB firmware updates ability? If 4K what will the native contrast be?
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There is a series of years shown in that video. 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2016. Is that just when new case/housing designs were done, or is there any other clue that can be derived from those years?
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Yes it is. From what little we have to go on.
1. Not same shape as 4500, so I don't think we are looking at 4500 replacement.
2. I think a model above the 4500 would probably use the same housing as the 4500, so I don't think it is a model above the 4500.
So this is a new housing. Will it be a model right above the RS640? Is this the new housing for the lamp based line? Will this be native 4K? Will this have USB firmware updates ability? If 4K what will the native contrast be?
Here's the new JVC projector as compared with the JVC RS4500/Z1, where of course they could in realty be completely different comparative sizes:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/AVSFORUM-2/i-B7W7b4m/0/4136cebb/XL/NEW%20JVC%20PROJECTOR%203-XL.jpg)
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I'm hoping for a bulb replacement. I don't think laser/ phosphor offers anything to picture quality so I'd rather get bulb + native 4K first if that means we can have it at lower prices.
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I'm hoping for a bulb replacement. I don't think laser/ phosphor offers anything to picture quality so I'd rather get bulb + native 4K first if that means we can have it at lower prices.
You may have your wish Dylan... ;)
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There is a series of years shown in that video. 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2016. Is that just when new case/housing designs were done, or is there any other clue that can be derived from those years?
The 2016 model year was not a new housing. But the 2016 year was a big advancement for JVC products. That is the year where JVC greatly increased the lumen output, while keeping native contrast the same, on the 5 and 6 series. Also the year they introduced HDR, 18 Gbps HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2
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You may have your wish Dylan... ;)
Do you know something I don't? :)
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Do you know something I don't? :)
Let's just say that there's definitely going to be something new from within the realm of native 4K and lamp-based launched by JVC at IFA and CEDIA ;)
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OK folks, yet to be definitively confirmed, but the latest information strongly indicates that JVC will be launching a new native 4K lamp-based projector range to replace the existing eShift lamp-based projector range which is to be discontinued; wherein, the new flagship to replace the X9900/RS640 will be eShift 8K :)
This teaser trailer is for the new range:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKsyJBc-Axc
So, it's going to be a case of either JVC being the first to achieve very high contrast performance with native 4K, which will be game-changing and akin to a trump card against all of the competition, which would be amazing; or the comparative contrast performance is going to be significantly worse, meaning JVC will lose their primary USP, which would be very disappointing indeed. Personally I am hoping to be amazed and not disappointed... ;)
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Great news Nigel.
This could finally mean an end to the image noise that JVCs tend to suffer with, and a step up in image quality, provided the contrast doesn't suffer too much. Having said that, as much as I like high contrast and good black levels, I prefer a noise free image, so given the choice, I would go for the lower/no image noise and less contrast over image noise with more contrast. 4K is an added bonus. 4K eshift should be something else :)
I'm surprised they're stopping the 1080 eshift range though - if they just stopped major development on the 1080 chipset and kept it as their entry level with reduced pricing, they could take a bigger chunk of the lower end of the market while still taking chunks out of Sony's 4K market and keeping a hold of the market in the current price range they already have. If the pricing is right, demand could be huge. I can see a lot of people selling their current eshift JVCs if the contrast isn't taking as much of a hit or if the performance is along the lines of the Z1, whos owners say the image offers so much more and the lower contrast is an acceptable compromise or don;t really miss.
Can't wait to see how these things perform. Any ideas on dates for prerelease models for testing?
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Great news Nigel.
This could finally mean an end to the image noise that JVCs tend to suffer with, and a step up in image quality, provided the contrast doesn't suffer too much. Having said that, as much as I like high contrast and good black levels, I prefer a noise free image, so given the choice, I would go for the lower/no image noise and less contrast over image noise with more contrast. 4K is an added bonus. 4K eshift should be something else :)
I'm surprised they're stopping the 1080 eshift range though - if they just stopped major development on the 1080 chipset and kept it as their entry level with reduced pricing, they could take a bigger chunk of the lower end of the market while still taking chunks out of Sony's 4K market and keeping a hold of the market in the current price range they already have. If the pricing is right, demand could be huge. I can see a lot of people selling their current eshift JVCs if the contrast isn't taking as much of a hit or if the performance is along the lines of the Z1, whos owners say the image offers so much more and the lower contrast is an acceptable compromise or don;t really miss.
Can't wait to see how these things perform. Any ideas on dates for prerelease models for testing?
I'll be surprised if they stop 1080p eshift all together. I would guess they won't on the less expensive models.
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Great news Nigel.
This could finally mean an end to the image noise that JVCs tend to suffer with, and a step up in image quality, provided the contrast doesn't suffer too much. Having said that, as much as I like high contrast and good black levels, I prefer a noise free image, so given the choice, I would go for the lower/no image noise and less contrast over image noise with more contrast. 4K is an added bonus. 4K eshift should be something else :)
I'm surprised they're stopping the 1080 eshift range though - if they just stopped major development on the 1080 chipset and kept it as their entry level with reduced pricing, they could take a bigger chunk of the lower end of the market while still taking chunks out of Sony's 4K market and keeping a hold of the market in the current price range they already have. If the pricing is right, demand could be huge. I can see a lot of people selling their current eshift JVCs if the contrast isn't taking as much of a hit or if the performance is along the lines of the Z1, whos owners say the image offers so much more and the lower contrast is an acceptable compromise or don;t really miss.
I'll be surprised if they stop 1080p eshift all together. I would guess they won't on the less expensive models.
Very nice to bump into you on here Gary! :)
What is reportedly (but not definitively confirmed yet) going to happen is that all of the X9/RS6, X7/RS5 and X5/RS4 series will be discontinued and replaced with new native 4K iterations, with the replacement for the X9/RS6 being eShift 8K.
But hopefully, JVC will do as you suggest, namely retain 1080p eShift projectors but at a reduced price, as lower-entry-level product(s). We shall see.
I will be attending IFA in Berlin in advance of attending CEDIA, so I will be able to confirm the full details with respect to what's what on 31st August, in the event that no-one elses does first.
I agree regarding the video noise... which was why I was annoyed last year when the supposedly reduced mosquito noise that had been claimed by JVC to be applicable to the new eShift range refresh transpired not to be the case at all. It was/is still there! >:(
So if the new replacement for the flagship X9/RS6 is eShift 8K let's just hope there's none of that mosquito noise! ;)
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Can't wait to see how these things perform. Any ideas on dates for prerelease models for testing?
Not yet, but I will know on August 31st when I attend IFA. I will very likely be personally obtaining one of the early units for in-depth evaluation and product review purposes, and I will be sure to publish my measurements and findings. ;)
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I agree regarding the video noise... which was why I was annoyed last year when the supposedly reduced mosquito noise that had been claimed by JVC to be applicable to the new eShift range refresh transpired not to be the case at all. It was/is still there! >:(
But is the JVC noise an issue to you from regular seating? No seems to mention it in A/B comparisons to the Sony 4Ks.
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But is the JVC noise an issue to you from regular seating? No seems to mention it in A/B comparisons to the Sony 4Ks.
Not a huge issue for me personally with respect to the existing eShift range, but I prefer a clean image. However, 8K resolution really needs larger screen size and/or closer viewing distances in order to be able to benefit from the increased resolution; wherein, if this is eShift with the same degree of video noise then I think there will be situations wherein you will notice the noise and this could be an issue for many people.
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Very nice to bump into you on here Gary! :)
How did you know it was me? I'm in disguise... :o :D
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Not a huge issue for me personally with respect to the existing eShift range, but I prefer a clean image. However, 8K resolution really needs larger screen size and/or closer viewing distances in order to be able to benefit from the increased resolution; wherein, if this is eShift with the same degree of video noise then I think there will be situations wherein you will notice the noise and this could be an issue for many people.
Honestly, I would just turn off eshift 8k.
While it would increase MTF, I just would prefer razor sharp pixels when you are at that kind of resolution. I am sure if all of this is true that there would be other things about the new 6/9 series to warrant the purchase other than 8k eshift only.
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At this point in time, 8K is a bit superfluous. I will say that e-shift with 1080p panels has been pretty good in that most of the content I'm watching is still 1080p, so it's nice to be able to use a projector that can map source information per pixel as it was encoded as opposed to relying on some form of upscaling and hoping the algorithm used doesn't do any damage.
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It will probably be similar to the very first eshift JVC that was around before UHD was even a thing, so there's a good chance this faux 8K machine will be obsolete before we get 8K sources, and if it isn't, it won't be compatible with them. We'll have to wait for 8K eshift 2 or something. It's most likely just a marketing thing, though it might have features like warping so if it's used with an anamorphic lens it can deal with the pincushion. It will be interesting to see what it has to offer over the 4K units anyhow.
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For the avoidance of doubt with respect to when 8K is worth it (click image to enlarge): ;)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/AVSFORUM-2/i-9MVJNTS/0/f90eecbf/O/8K%20RESOLUTION%20DISPLAYS%20WORTH%20IT%20CHART%20%28hi-res%29.jpg)
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News from the SONY camp...
NEW SONY 870ES Dual Laser Projector | to sit above 760ES
Reportedly SONY’s new projector will be DUAL laser, with a proper dynamic iris (finally); and with a number of lens options, which I believe includes the same ARC-F lens as in the SONY 5000ES.
Whether or not this is dual red and blue laser plus green phosphor is yet to be confirmed, but I would expect that is probably the case.
It’s to be priced the same as the JVC Z1/RS4500, so circa £35,000
No info regards light output, but I am expecting it will be circa 3,000 lumens
I have already pre-ordered the SONY 870ES and should be receiving delivery of one of the first early units to arrive in Europe, wherein I will be carrying out and publishing an impartial in-depth evaluation and review, including comprehensive measurements; which will also include a comprehensive direct comparison versus the JVC RS4500/Z1. For those who are interested
For those who are not in the know, all current home theater/cinema laser projectors (except only for the Barco Thor) are singular blue laser wherein the red and green components are synthesized via firing the blue laser through a yellow phosphor panel. Dual red and blue laser plus green phosphor should provide a significant step up in video performance with respect to the chroma performance, in addition to boosting peak light output, although red laser won't be providing a large increase.
Please kindly note that this is indicative information so is yet to be definitively confirmed. I am attending IFA prior to attending CEDIA so I will post the full definitively confirmed details, regarding any and all new projector product releases live from Berlin on 31st August ;)
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Interesting. We will have to see what this actually looks like. And, while everything looks great at Cedia, I'll be interested to see actual tests and reviews.
If this projector is priced exactly the same as the RS4500 / Z1, it will be the same price in Europe, but most likely more expensive ( street ) than the RS4500 in the US.
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That's great news!! Finally something to replace the 1100ES.
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That's great news!! Finally something to replace the 1100ES.
Precisely :D
I personally owned a SONY 1100ES for almost 5 years. Loved that projector ;)
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Precisely :D
I personally owned a SONY 1100ES for almost 5 years. Loved that projector ;)
Yep, good projector. I had one in my room for two or three months. Like the RS4500 it had that DLP look, except for much better contrast.
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I had mine for 6 months. It was a breakthrough product in just about every way. It was the only high brightness, high contrast projector out for a long time. Great lens, excellent dynamic iris and great video processing. It being native 4K was trivial IMO.
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Here's a better glimpse of the new JVC native 4K projectors to be launched at IFA and CEDIA:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/NEW-JVC-4K-PROJECTORS/i-PzDRzSS/0/c5bbc93c/X2/JVC%20NEW%204K%20PROJECTORS%202-X2.jpg)
Thoughts? ;)
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Projectors? Plural? :D
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I'm sure that will be the case design for multiple 4k models. 8)
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Projectors? Plural? :D
So it would seem ;)
Press release by JVC: "Go Further! JVC's new D-ILA projectors, live at IFA 2018!!"
I'm sure that will be the case design for multiple 4k models. 8)
Yes indeed I think so :)
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“BE THE FIRST” with respect to WHAT ??!!! ;)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/NEW-JVC-4K-PROJECTORS/i-PzDRzSS/0/c5bbc93c/X2/JVC%20NEW%204K%20PROJECTORS%202-X2.jpg)
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Maybe "Be the first" means a true 4k projector with e-shift. ;)
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It would be a smart move to keep an eshifter on the bottom end...say around $2000-$2500. That would compete with the Epson and DLP eshifters. Something ala RS440 in that price range would be killer.
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No lens cover? I like the fact that my HD250 has a motorized cover for the lens when not in use.
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No lens cover? I like the fact that my HD250 has a motorized cover for the lens when not in use.
Most projectors don't have one. My Lumis didn't have one, and my RS4500 doesn't have one. It's just another motor to break IMO.
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I prefer a motorized lens cover myself but as long as a manual cover is included I'll be happy.
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Well today we can start the countdown at 10 for IFA. We should start to hear factual information on the new upcoming projectors then. :)
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Well today we can start the countdown at 10 for IFA. We should start to hear factual information on the new upcoming projectors then. :)
T-minus 9 days 16 hours and 31 minutes and counting ;)
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I'm looking forward to hearing what gets released, and at what price points. I'm expecting them to replace the RS440, RS540, and RS640 with new models using the new 4K (non-eshift) chip, and possibly offer an eshift model to round out the bottom of the line.
Currently, the 440/540/640 retails for $4,000/$6,000/$8,000 respectively.
Assuming that JVC holds to those price points (is this what they do historically?), then they have room to position an eshift model at $2,000 or $2,500. If they were to use the 440, then I would say closer to $2,000, but if they were to use the 540, they could aim at the $3,000 range.
I'm a little concerned about the first generation of any new technology implementation, because no amount of internal testing can replicate real-world experience from a retail roll-out. Hopefully, reviewers will have the chance to put whatever gets released through their paces in short order and we can see how JVC handled it out of the gate.
Personally, I'd love to see them decrease the MSRP of the new models, but I don't know if there is any pressure that would force them to do so. I would love to see the 540 replacement dip under a $5,000 MSRP.
Lacking that, then I guess I'll be looking at closeout eshift models (even though I'm concerned about reports of audible noise) or playing the wait-and-watch game for specials.
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I'm extremely excited to see what comes out from JVC, Sony and Epson this year.
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I'm looking forward to hearing what gets released, and at what price points. I'm expecting them to replace the RS440, RS540, and RS640 with new models using the new 4K (non-eshift) chip, and possibly offer an eshift model to round out the bottom of the line.
Currently, the 440/540/640 retails for $4,000/$6,000/$8,000 respectively.
Assuming that JVC holds to those price points (is this what they do historically?), then they have room to position an eshift model at $2,000 or $2,500. If they were to use the 440, then I would say closer to $2,000, but if they were to use the 540, they could aim at the $3,000 range.
I'm a little concerned about the first generation of any new technology implementation, because no amount of internal testing can replicate real-world experience from a retail roll-out. Hopefully, reviewers will have the chance to put whatever gets released through their paces in short order and we can see how JVC handled it out of the gate.
Personally, I'd love to see them decrease the MSRP of the new models, but I don't know if there is any pressure that would force them to do so. I would love to see the 540 replacement dip under a $5,000 MSRP.
Lacking that, then I guess I'll be looking at closeout eshift models (even though I'm concerned about reports of audible noise) or playing the wait-and-watch game for specials.
The MSRP price on the 4, 5 and 6 series dropped, because basically the same model (limited changes) was offered for three years. Now that a new model is being issued, prices could go back up.
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The MSRP price on the 4, 5 and 6 series dropped, because basically the same model (limited changes) was offered for three years. Now that a new model is being issued, prices could go back up.
Prices will go back up. That's as sure a thing as death and taxes. ;)
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Prices will go back up. That's as sure a thing as death and taxes. ;)
So, should I hold off buying until November if I want one of the current/previous generation models or buy now? Or are you referring specifically to the new JVC models?
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JVC prices might go up but, AVS will knock'em down with the most powerful power buy ever! :) ;D
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So, should I hold off buying until November if I want one of the current/previous generation models or buy now? Or are you referring specifically to the new JVC models?
I'm pretty sure new models will cost more. Hard to say if the current models will drop any more - there aren't that many left.
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Maybe on a Friday Flash Sale?
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I'm pretty sure new models will cost more. Hard to say if the current models will drop any more - there aren't that many left.
Thanks. I will more than likely be looking for B stock anyway if the new model doesn’t give me enough reason to spend the extra for the latest and greatest.
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The latest from SONY...
Apparently SONY will be launching more than one new projector at IFA and CEDIA ;)
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Looks like it will be a fun time reading news from those two shows! I've got a watch on this thread and will be following updates closely...
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And Epson seems to be the company still in the shadows. I'm hoping something exciting from them as well.
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The latest from SONY...
Apparently SONY will be launching more than one new projector at IFA and CEDIA ;)
Isn't there an old saying that good things come in threes?
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And Epson seems to be company still in the shadows. I'm hoping something exciting from them as well.
They need a refresh of the line from the 5040UB up. They need a native 4K laser replacement for the LS10500. Let's hope !
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They need a refresh of the line from the 5040UB up. They need a native 4K laser replacement for the LS10500. Let's hope !
There has been a recent price reduction for the LS10500 from £5500 to under £4700 here in the UK so I wonder if that means they've something new in the pipeline, or just discontinuing it if it didn't sell well.
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New Sony projectors have leaked. :)
All three have 18Gbps HDMI and 4K motionflow
VW570 has 1,800 lumens.
VW870 has ARC lens, 2,200 lumens and an iris.
I do not understand the iris, since it says the iris and the laser can be controlled dynamically and independently?
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New Sony projectors have leaked. :)
All three have 18Gbps HDMI and 4K motionflow
VW570 has 1,800 lumens.
VW870 has ARC lens, 2,200 lumens and an iris.
I do not understand the iris, since it says the iris and the laser can be controlled dynamically and independently?
Interesting. I'll be interested to see pricing too.
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I am hearing, 5K, 10K and 35K.
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It's nice to see Sony fixing one of the blaring issues with their 4K lineup. I still think at $5000, the 270ES should have a dynamic iris. If JVC has something native 4K at $5000 with a dynamic iris, I just can't see people buying the 270ES unless some other aspect of the JVC is lacking by comparison.
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I also see Sony has a new name for their convergence correction software:
Digital Focus Optimiser
Optimum focus is achieved, not only optically but digitally, by the Digital Focus
Optimiser. It compensates the possible optical degradation of the lens in advance then
outputs the optimum corrected images, so that even the focus in the corners is better
than ever.
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I also see Sony has a new name for their convergence correction software:
Bingo.
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New Sony projectors have leaked. :)
All three have 18Gbps HDMI and 4K motionflow
VW570 has 1,800 lumens.
VW870 has ARC lens, 2,200 lumens and an iris.
I do not understand the iris, since it says the iris and the laser can be controlled dynamically and independently?
I have to say I'm disappointed with 870's peak light output being only 2,200 lumens. I was hoping for 3,000 lumens.
I'm also slightly confused by what the marketing spiel says regarding the iris and laser.
I have a private meeting with SONY whilst at IFA, wherein I will obtain some clarification regarding this. I will also be taking some measurements ;)
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Now we just need an all new lineup of projectors from Epson, and this Cedia will be a buzz of excitement !!
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Agreed and I feel Epson hasn't had anything interesting in a couple years so it's gotta be this year for them to have at least one ot two new models.
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Just finished all my booking to be out there Friday and part of Saturday. Should be fun!
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Just finished all my booking to be out there Friday and part of Saturday. Should be fun!
IFA or CEDIA? :)
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IFA or CEDIA? :)
CEDIA. I assume you will be there also?
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CEDIA. I assume you will be there also?
Indeed I will be. I'll be attending CEDIA 4th - 10th September, so if you fancy meeting up for a coffee let me know ;)
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Maybe it is 2200 to leave room for whatever replaces the VW-5000. I can't imagine they will let their top end projector sit there for too long with the lower end projectors having some fancier features such as multiple iris.
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Indeed I will be. I'll be attending CEDIA 4th - 10th September, so if you fancy meeting up for a coffee let me know ;)
Sounds good. I am kaotikr1 on the other forum, I know you and I have interacted a few times over there. Quite a bit of dram on the other forum in regards to a few posters and the 885ES.
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Looking at the 570 pdf from Mike (thanks for posting those!) I'm curious about what the 570 has over the 385 to be 25% higher price. Or is it closer to a replacement for the 675?
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Sounds good. I am kaotikr1 on the other forum, I know you and I have interacted a few times over there. Quite a bit of dram on the other forum in regards to a few posters and the 885ES.
Ah right. Yes we have indeed conversed a few times over there. Send me a PM with your contact details. Looking forward to meeting you at CEDIA :)
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Looking at the 570 pdf from Mike (thanks for posting those!) I'm curious about what the 570 has over the 385 to be 25% higher price. Or is it closer to a replacement for the 675?
18Gbps HDMI
MotionFlow with 4K content
More lumens
Or you could say the 570 is a 675 with 18Gbps and 4K motioflow, at a reduced price.
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Looking at the 570 pdf from Mike (thanks for posting those!) I'm curious about what the 570 has over the 385 to be 25% higher price. Or is it closer to a replacement for the 675?
To clarify, the 570ES is the European & Australian model number. The US & Canada model number is 695ES. The 570/695ES will be replacing the 550/675ES.
The 360/385ES is being discontinued in Europe, so I expect it will be elsewhere as well.
So SONY's product range of home theater/cinema projectors for 2019 will be as per follows:
• 270/295ES
• 570/695ES
• 760/885ES
• 870/995ES
• 5000ES
Prices are yet to be definitively confirmed.
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The cat is out of the bag at IFA Berlin !!
https://youtu.be/TTTzqxteWBw (https://youtu.be/TTTzqxteWBw)
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I wonder what the U.S. model numbers will be? Will there be a Reference Series? I see the N7 doesn't have THX cert. if that is to be the replacement of the RS-5xx/6xx projectors. Only the N9 is THX cert. What does the THX cert. really bring to the table anyway?
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Very exciting times ahead. I think JVC made the right call to do lamp based units first. They will sell a lot more units at first with the lower MSRPs. I'm also happy to see JVC keep 3D support with this projectors. I have a feeling the N5 is in my future unless pricing is lower than what I'm expecting it to be.
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I wonder what the U.S. model numbers will be? Will there be a Reference Series? I see the N7 doesn't have THX cert. if that is to be the replacement of the RS-5xx/6xx projectors. Only the N9 is THX cert. What does the THX cert. really bring to the table anyway?
I'm not sure THX certification or lack of it would be a deal breaker one way or the other. As for US model numbers, one more week until Cedia !
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Awesome! 4K and high native contrast. Bravo!
Can I get a laser version please? :)
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Awesome! 4K and high native contrast. Bravo!
Can I get a laser version please? :)
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Awesome! 4K and high native contrast. Bravo!
Can I get a laser version please? :)
Not yet. Pick your poison !
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Is it known that the "auto tone-mapping" feature is related to HDR10+ or is this some sort of JVC specific software that alters the HDR content to suit their relatively low light output images?
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Arrow, would you mind asking about the lens used in the N5 and N7? It seems to me that this is the same lens used in the previous e-shift models as that lens was also 65mm in diameter at the exit element. The eshift lens consists of 17 elements, in 15 groups. The eshift model specs 2x zoom and lens shift capabilities as +/-34% horizontal and +/-80% vertical.
These are the same numbers that the N5 and N7 show on the spec sheet. Now, the lens used in the eshift models is a great lens for sure, even better than the one Sony uses in the non-ARC-F models. This was clearly evident when doing comparisons with these projectors in the same room. The JVC eshift lens was simply better at delineating pixels across the whole image versus the Sony lens in several of the Sony 4K models I've had here. So I won't be upset if they're re-using it here but I'm curious if there've been any improvements made such as better optical coatings or maybe better quality glass. If you get the chance can you ask JVC if this is indeed the same lens? I'd ask you on the other forum, but I'm perma-banned.
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Is it known that the "auto tone-mapping" feature is related to HDR10+ or is this some sort of JVC specific software that alters the HDR content to suit their relatively low light output images?
Arrow, would you mind asking about the lens used in the N5 and N7? It seems to me that this is the same lens used in the previous e-shift models as that lens was also 65mm in diameter at the exit element. The eshift lens consists of 17 elements, in 15 groups. The eshift model specs 2x zoom and lens shift capabilities as +/-34% horizontal and +/-80% vertical.
These are the same numbers that the N5 and N7 show on the spec sheet. Now, the lens used in the eshift models is a great lens for sure, even better than the one Sony uses in the non-ARC-F models. This was clearly evident when doing comparisons with these projectors in the same room. The JVC eshift lens was simply better at delineating pixels across the whole image versus the Sony lens in several of the Sony 4K models I've had here. So I won't be upset if they're re-using it here but I'm curious if there've been any improvements made such as better optical coatings or maybe better quality glass. If you get the chance can you ask JVC if this is indeed the same lens? I'd ask you on the other forum, but I'm perma-banned.
I'll ask both questions. ;)
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Awesome! Thank you so much.
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Is there something inherent with the laser engine which reduces contrast compared to what is possible with a lamp? Or were the JVC advances in contrast something which could apply to a laser engine? I told myself I would not buy another lamp projector, but I'm not sure I can swallow the $ pill knowing that 4k with high native contrast is out there!
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Is there something inherent with the laser engine which reduces contrast compared to what is possible with a lamp? Or were the JVC advances in contrast something which could apply to a laser engine? I told myself I would not buy another lamp projector, but I'm not sure I can swallow the $ pill knowing that 4k with high native contrast is out there!
I've seen this topic discussed quite a bit on the other forum and I disagreed with the sentiment (before these models were announced) that they were somehow going to be dramatically worse off contrast-wise to the eshift models simply because they were using the new .69" DiLA panels. The simple answer is no, a laser/phosphor light source doesn't offer some inherent advantage or disadvantage. It's more about refined light engine design combined with the imagers potential performance that gives you your contrast performance.
Two things to consider; JVC has been working on their lamp based light engine for over a decade now. This means the light engine as a whole, not just the DiLA panels. So we're talking about things like optical coatings, newer/better wire-grid polarizers, a better lens, better optical block, and yes better DiLA panels. I would imagine that a LOT of what made the eshift models great in terms of contrast made their way to these new lamp based native 4K units. Now...I'm not saying they've simply dropped these new panels in an otherwise unchanged light engine compared to the eshift models, but I'd bet there are striking similarities between the two designs and this is why we're seeing better-than-RS4500 contrast. As the old adage says, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So JVC kept what worked in getting more contrast with these new panels. But it does seem these new panels do offer less native contrast over their latest 1080p panels, but luckily JVCs tried and true light engine tweaks over the years makes up for some of these DiLA panel deficiencies.
The second thing to note is similar to what I've just said. The RS4500 was a brand new product with a new light engine design with a completely new light source that didn't have the advantage of having over a decades worth of refinement under its belt. I think subsequent laser based models will get incrementally better as JVC tweaks the light engine and, yes, possibly coming out with a gen-2 .69" 4K DiLA panel that has the potential to get more contrast in an otherwise unchanged light engine.
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A lot of excitement about these new projectors. I see Arrow stated 50% ANSI increase. :)
I picked a good year to go to CEDIA. Less than a week!
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Here is a Forbes review - https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2018/08/30/jvc-launches-three-new-true-4k-projectors-and-they-look-awesome/#5fa539886cf8
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woah! divorce imminent
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On the other forum, a guy named Ran mentioned the following after asking the JVC techs at IFA:
1. Ansi Contrast has been improved and is now similar to the 4500.
2. The lens on the 5+7 are the same as last years lens.
3. Updates will be done via the USB port.
4. A completely new Light engine.
5. Iris is the same as last years, BUT the N9 will have a brand new Iris system.
6. Sync times will be cut in half.
7. Streaking is a thing of the past (hopefully of course…)
8. Light loss with the filter will be less (not sure how much less) than last year.
9. New and improved calibration software will be out shortly, NO support for new sensors.
10. Bright Corners (my absolute nightmare) is a well known issue, which currently can NOT be solved under current conditions and pricing. Asked about this "picking the best parts stuff" (which is a thing of the past now, but still made me wonder...) and they said it has nothing to do or no effect on bright corners what so ever, just lens and better contrast.
Interesting stuff. The only thing I'm a bit confused by is, if the same lens is being used in the N5 and N7 that the eshift models had, how are the issues with lens streaking gone? This must be in reference to the lens used in the N9 and RS4500. Kris Deering has told me this issue, with that particular lens, is gone. So I can only assume this is what is meant by it being a thing of the past.
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Seems the image noise issue hasn't been resolved unless it's simply still there because it's a pre production unit, and bright corners are still going to be an issue. I'll have a look when they're on demo later this year regarding the image noise.
Good point about the streaking and halo's in N5+7 vs N9, unless that was down to panels and light path moreso than the lens itself in which case it may be fixed for all.
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I would say let's wait until a production unit gets into the hands of someone familiar with the current line up of Sony and JVC projectors. There seems to be some quirks in the video processing as Ran and Arrow noted (banding, posterization, ect) that are promised to be gone by the time production units hit the market. The noise may be similar. Alternatively, it could also have been some of the video content itself that has this noise encoded in it. Ran did mention the N9 was being displayed on a much larger screen than his so this may have given a misrepresentation of noise he simply can't see at his seating distance on his screen size. We also need to remember that JVCs are far better at keeping noise that's in the source compared to Sony 4K models. The Sony models have built in non-defeatable noise reduction so the JVC may appear to be noisier when it fact it's just displaying the source material more closely than the Sonys are. My 2-cents until we actually see this in person. I have faith JVC will get things right as they normally do even if it takes some time to fix them.
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Possibly, but the JVCs have for a long time now add their own noise that isn't in the source, and they even said they'd eliminated it with eshicft 5 (but it was still there), so that's an acknowledgement of the artifact. As you say though, it could just be because this unit as a pre-pro so could be fixed in the release models. I'll probably get a look nearer to Christmas and see for myself.
I've a concern that with eshift being visibly very close to 4K when doing split screen comparisons, JVCs pricing may be a little high right now compared to the eshift models, unless they expect the 4K marketing to push more sales. At least they've managed to release these with improved on/off compared to the 4K competition to keep themselves as the market leaders which should help sales.
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Agreed. Yeah, I know what you mean with the fine mosquito noise with eshift enabled. I had a hard time seeing it from my seated distance but it was definitely there. The noise Ran mentioned sounds like some form of excessive noise. Though eshift is now gone on the N5 and N7, so I hope this is just a pre-production software quirk.
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This noise, is it the rapid unsteadiness that appears even on a static image that people are talking about?
Does the RS4500 have this?
Does Sony have this?
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My two cents:
UPDATE FROM IFA 2018:
Hi everyone,
JVC had the JVC DLA-NX9 on demo only. As we all know, this is a preproduction unit, so this needs to be borne in mind.
We were not able to obtain answers to everyones questions, but we were unable to obtain the answers to some of them, which I will come onto in a second. Further to this JVC were reluctant to allow us to put on our own video content, but the good news is that we managed to persuade JVC to allow us to put one or two items of our own content on.
The dynamic contrast functionality was/is not working properly so the demos at IFA 2018 have been with it turned off and so the projected image relates to native ON/OFF contrast performance only, without any dynamic contrast functionality.
There was also noticeable posterization however I was assured that this will not be present with the production units.
Furthermore, the unit was uncalibrated and the settings not optimized.
Also, the focus had been set imperfectly, which became apparent when I put on some test patterns.
**HOWEVER** in spite of all of this, subjectively speaking my first impressions of the JVC DLA-NX9 are that the image projected looks very good indeed; and I have no doubt whatsoever that with respect to the actual production units with proper launch firmware and with the projector setup properly and calibrated, this projector is going to look nothing short of absolutely incredible. In short, I have been absolutely blown away by its performance.
Also, as a point of interest, the manual mechanical iris was closed down to -3. The screen size was circa 3.5m wide and was using Stewart Filmscreen 1.3 gain screen material.
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS AS PER FOLLOWS (sorry if there is some repetition with respect to Ran's answers!):
● Native on/off for all models with the iris fully open? Even if only a rough idea compared to the specs, which presumably are for iris fully closed?
We were unable to take measurements and JVC were not agreeable to confirming this yet
● Autocal support confirmation, and for which meters?
Yes and the same meters (Spyder); however, the Autocal is reportedly improved
● Is the lens on the N5/N7 the same lens as on the current models?
NO the lens is similar but has been improved, according to JVC's main technical guy. Subjective opinion regarding the N5 and N7 are that they are better as compared with the existing eShift range as far as lens and optics performance is concerned.
● Is their new tone mapping based on static HDR metadata, or are they doing real-time processing to calculate each frame’s peak brightness to emulate HDR10+ (similar to what MadVR does [EDIT:apparently, the UB820 only processes HDR10 static metadata])
Yes it is indeed based on static HDR metadata, similar to how the new Panasonic UB820 and UB9000 Blu-Ray players operate.
Furthermore, a rather neat feature, it tells you what is the media’s static HDR metadata (Max CLL and Max FALL). See this photo that I took which shows this:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/IFA-2018/i-TRht36f/0/ec1d5a13/X2/20180831_121006-X2.jpg)
● ANSI contrast
According to JVC but not yet definitely confirmed via independent measurements the ANSI contrast performance is increased by circa 50%. Unsure at the present time whether this extends to both of the N5 and N7 further to the NX9.
● Does the dynamic iris close further than on the current models (i.e. any improvement to fade to black)?
No. It’s the same.
● There are “up to” 10 installation memories that hold lens memory, pixel correction, masking etc all together, which sounds great, but how many of these for each model
With respect to the NX9 it’s 10. Unsure at the present time whether this includes the N5 and N7 as well, but I expect that it does.
● Is the HDMI sync time improved compared to the current models
Yes. It’s been HALVED
● Can you confirm the +/- 100% V and +/- 47% H lens shift reported by some sources?
Confirmed
● What is the lumen loss with DCI P3 filter in place?
According to JVC “it is less”
JVC were unwilling or unable to divulge more details that the fact it is less. So someone will simply have to measure it, which I will be doing myself, as and when I receive delivery of my units
● Is there additional video noise when eShift is turned on
No. There is absolutely zero additional video noise when eShift is turned on.
● Bright corners
When asked the question whether or not there has been any development invested into improving the potential for bright corners, the response from the JVC guys was that no there has not been. **HOWEVER** I was not seeing any bright corners with respect to the NX9 unit being demonstrated; and this is a totally new optical block plus chipset, plus chassis etc. so it could very well be that the bright corners issue has indeed been improved. Either way, we won't know for sure until we have multiple data points with respect to the production units.
● Is the iris on the NX9 the same or new?
It is a completely new iris.
● How has JVC managed to increase the native ON/OFF contrast with native 4K so much?
JVC are understandably and as expected unwilling to say how they have done it; however, they have confirmed that it’s an entirely new optical block and chipset.
● Will JVC be releasing sometime next year a ‘big brother’ to the NX9 and/or replacement for the JVC RS4500/Z1 that’s essentially an NX9 with laser light source and higher peak lumens light output?
Would not confirm or deny.
● When will the production units for the projectors be available / ship ?
End of October.
● Impressions of lens performance and/or ability to resolve native 4K content at the pixel level
Despite all of the various pre-production related issues, and despite being 'out-of-the-box' uncalibrated, the NX9 completely aced both torture tests that I carried out. Firstly, it PERFECTLY resolved the Masciola single pixel native 4K test pattern off the HDR10 Test Pattern Suite, with perfect uniformity:
(N.B. I apologize for the quality of these photos - I was only able to take these using my phone not my 'proper' camera - there was in reality no moire in the projected image. That is a limitation of the photos)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/IFA-2018/i-tkMhvp9/0/54315f93/L/1%20pixel%20checkerboard-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/IFA-2018/i-TCvLRXC/0/28d288b8/O/20180831_153807.jpg)
Secondly, it completed nailed the Quick Brown Fox test pattern, with perfect sharpness (aside from the projector having been set out of focus slightly) and perfect focus uniformity right across the whole image. The RGB convergence was also very good indeed all things considered; and the image was devoid of any and all streaking / ghosting / smearing, comprising an exceptionally clean and razor sharp image, even when viewed at extremely close proximity of less than 1 metre away, with superb contrast and dynamic range:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/IFA-2018/i-rWftJ8x/0/ffc9a322/L/quick%20brown%20fox-L.jpg)
My conclusion from my first experience of the JVC DLA-NX9 is that JVC has hit a home run with this projector; and potentially with respect to the whole new projector range. Personally, I cannot wait to lay hands on the production units and carry out my evaluations and complete my in-depth review of the range, including comprehensive measurements, scientific analysis, and direct comparisons; which will be published shortly thereafter :)
:wink:
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This noise, is it the rapid unsteadiness that appears even on a static image that people are talking about?
Does the RS4500 have this?
Does Sony have this?
Possibly, though we don't know for sure until there are more units out there to be tested. It could be inherent in their panel design and how they're driven which is why it's still there, or it could be that it hasn't been tweaked out like it has in the 4500 and will be gone when in production, we'll have to wait and see.
Neither the 4500, the eshift Epsons or the Sony's suffer from it - as Dylan said, the Sony's have an undefeatable image noise suppression system that could be a good or bad thing, depending on your point of view.
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Possibly, though we don't know for sure until there are more units out there to be tested. It could be inherent in their panel design and how they're driven which is why it's still there, or it could be that it hasn't been tweaked out like it has in the 4500 and will be gone when in production, we'll have to wait and see.
Neither the 4500, the eshift Epsons or the Sony's suffer from it - as Dylan said, the Sony's have an undefeatable image noise suppression system that could be a good or bad thing, depending on your point of view.
The JVC guys did say that it is possible to eliminate the video noise and they have succeeded in doing so. That's why I will be reserving judgement regarding this as and when I receive delivery of and evaluation the actual production units. Hopefully it will not be there. I guess we are just going to have to wait and see ;)
EDIT /UPDATE: THERE IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO VIDEO NOISE WITH NATIVE 4K CONTENT
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This noise, is it the rapid unsteadiness that appears even on a static image that people are talking about?
Does the RS4500 have this?
Does Sony have this?
No, it does not. The only noise I see is in the source ( older grainy Blu-rays ). 4K Blu-rays have no noise. I always thought this was related to eshift itself, what little noise I saw with my RS600 with some select Blu-rays.
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Hi Arrow,
Are the bright corners stronger on the N7 and N9 vs the N5? Similarly as they are less prevalent on the RS440 vs RS540/640?
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Hi Arrow,
Are the bright corners stronger on the N7 and N9 vs the N5? Similarly as they are less prevalent on the RS440 vs RS540/640?
I think they only had the NX9 being demo'd. Hard to say until a couple hundred of each model get into the wild, eh ?
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Hi Arrow,
Are the bright corners stronger on the N7 and N9 vs the N5? Similarly as they are less prevalent on the RS440 vs RS540/640?
They only had the NX9 on demo. The N7 and N5 were only display but not on demo. But to be honest, despite the answer to the question with respect to the NX9 unit on demo it does not really have noticeable bright corners.
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By the way, I do not remember seeing any video noise with the native 4K test patterns...
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I have a feeling once they dial in the software for the new video processing solution most, if not all, of that noise will be gone. In 1080p mode (no eshift) on the old models there was never any noticeable added noise, even when you were at the screen looking. So I have faith this quirk is just a pre-production artifact that will be taken care of when these units launch. Also, it could very well be an issue solely related to the N9 as I assume that has its own special hardware solution. I hope the N5 or N7 will be on display at CEDIA and people can get a close look at it then.
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(https://photos.smugmug.com/IFA-2018/i-TCvLRXC/0/28d288b8/O/20180831_153807.jpg)
Looking good when you consider that the same test pattern on the Sony's look like this. This was the 285ES I had here earlier this year:
(https://i.imgur.com/s4SXIkD.png)
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Dylan,
Here's how the SONY 760/885ES handles precisely the same identical single pixel native 4K HDR10 Masciola test pattern, similarly out of the box, but with respect to actual production units... and check out the 'coffee mug' ring:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/SONY-VPL-VW760ES/i-pbw5VPg/0/ea1c3fd5/O/FACTORY%20DEFAULT%20-%20COFFEE%20MUG%20RING.jpg)
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Awesome! 4K and high native contrast. Bravo!
Can I get a laser version please? :)
Sure, it is available and called the RS4500. :)
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The 285ES looks very similar if you look closely at the checkerboard pattern part of your image. Instead of white and black pixels its more like black pixels in a sea of grey:
(https://i.imgur.com/trVeFn0.png)
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Yeah, I think it's most SONYs due to the automated RGB zone pixel alignment in the service menu inducing moire; but the SONY 760/885ES has uniformity issues above and beyond that... See the 'coffee mug' ring I have now highlighted in that screenshot? What's that all about? ;)
Either way, the new JVC NX9 totally smashed the native 4K pixel level delineation test. I have a feeling that the N5 and N7 will too (or at least I am hoping they will) despite having the 'lesser' lenses :)
I'm going to be doing an in-depth evaluation of all three new JVC projectors, including comprehensive measurements, analysis, and comparisons, just as soon as I receive delivery of my units.
I have a private meeting with SONY tomorrow morning at 9am wherein I will be evaluating the SONY 870/995ES. I will be posting feedback on here afterwards. ;)
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Please, please, please ask about the posterization issue and if the engineers are looking into a solution. The images from their 4K projectors should never look like this:
Sony:
(click to enlarge)
(http://hometheaterphotos.com/projector2/JVC_Sony8.jpg)
JVC:
(click to enlarge)
(http://hometheaterphotos.com/projector2/JVC_Sony9.jpg)
I've been waiting for years for Sony to fix this issue.
Close up images:
(http://hometheaterphotos.com/projector2/JVC_Sony10.jpg)
(http://hometheaterphotos.com/projector2/JVC_Sony11.jpg)
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I hear you; and I absolutely agree with you... Unfortunately it's not that kind of meeting :-\
And I hate to say it but I fully expect to be seeing precisely the same list of issues, including posterization. I will be amazed if this is not the case... Let's see ;)
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Well....looks like EVERYTHING on my list from 2014 seems to be happening this year:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1522343-jvc-4k-projector-what-does-jvc-need-accomplish-compete-sony.html
Better late than never i suppose. ;)
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UPDATE:
I just had another private meeting with JVC and the main technical guy was there.
Regarding the lens on the N5 and N7, the reality is that the lens is the same lens but which has been improved. In other words, JVC took the existing lens design and have made some improvements. Therefore, it is neither the same lens nor completely new, but is definitely better as compared with the lens on the existing eshift range
Furthermore, with respect to the prevously reported video noise, yes there was some instances of video noise, however I have also seen instances where there is none. I also do not remember seeing any video noise whatsoever with respect to the native 4K content that I myself put on yesterday. And further to this during my private meeting with JVC today I confirmed this fact.
I also have confirmed that there is also absolutely ZERO additional noise added when turning eShift 8K on with respect to the NX9.
The only instance of video noise that I have witnessed today is with respect to HD content being upscaled by the projector, which it is not recommended that you do anyway; it is best to feed the projector HD that is pre-upscaled optimally to 4K.
And with respect to yesterday, since there was not the ability to have proper handson we don't know what exactly was the situation regarding what was being actually sent to the projector in all instances, so it is possible that native 4K content was being outputted to the projector as HD 1080p. In fact, I discovered after I was handed the remote that the OPPO player had indeed for God knows what reason been set such that it was outputting everything as 1080p
:wink:
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Good to know that JVC made improvements to the lens for the N5/N7. I guess it remains to be seen what the improvements show. I'm a bit surprised that no N5/N7 are showing being that they are to be available in a couple of months. I hope they show them at cedia.
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Great news Arrow! These are shaping up to be very exciting projectors indeed.
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Good to know that JVC made improvements to the lens for the N5/N7. I guess it remains to be seen what the improvements show. I'm a bit surprised that no N5/N7 are showing being that they are to be available in a couple of months. I hope they show them at cedia.
This is pretty typical for trade shows. They want to muster up as much excitement for their flagship projector as they can.
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UPDATE:
I just had my own private meeting with JVC and the main technical guy was there.
I found the video from my UB900 to look a tad better than the Oppo, to be honest. I'd be interested to see HD upscaled by a UB900 or UB820. I'll bet it looks great. Let the player upscale to 4K and then see what happens. We need to check the output source at Cedia.
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Letting a player do the upscaling is preferable anyways to cut down on input lag which will introduce more lip sync issues.
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It's nice to hear that the bump in ANSI contrast is among the whole lineup, not just the N9. I'm assuming this means something has been changed on the chip/light engine level. Also, I'm betting the removal of the eshift device on the two lower models helps. It's possible the eshift deivce cancels out the better ANSI contrast potential on the N9's mega lens. Haha
Getting rid of internal reflections alone could have been more than enough to get that boost in ANSI contrast. The JVC engineers did mention that this is a completely new light engine design so this is possible. Removal of internal reflections from a better light engine design, better lens quality (they mention no streaking too!!) and some chip level enhancements are welcome gains in performance.
With that said, I've been vocal about ANSI contrast not mattering as much as on/off contrast. I still stand by that assessment and I think there is a very real point of diminished returns, but that does not mean that I'm not going to be happy that JVC (or anyone else for that matter) is boosting performance in areas that were lacking by comparison to the competition out there. The one area that JVC needs to work on just a tad bit more is motion resolution. If they can get response time down from 4ms to 2.5ms (or better) to match Sony then I think that's a game over for Sony and Epson. What other objective metric does Sony or Epson hold over JVC? I've seen a couple guys mention that Sony has "video processing prowess" over the competition, but I call complete and utter BS on that one. All one needs to do is call up some test patterns on the Sony's to show what I mean. Some people talk as if Reality Creation is some kind of revelation. Kris Deering will agree with me that RC has some very strange artifacts that are CLEARLY evident when looking at test patterns. You might say "I don't watch test patterns" and while that may be true, how else can we objectively see what Sony's projectors are doing? The odd thing is that test patterns look worse with RC off. The sweet spot is RC on, but with all the settings set to zero. You also need to go into the service menu and make several tweaks to get rid of some of the other oddities like pink/green banding that the semi-non-defeatable subpixel convergence software creates. Then we have still issues with banding when fed 10bit 60p source material that still needs to be verified as fixed with the new models. Yes...video processing prowess indeed.
I know I sound like a broken record here, but Sony irks me to no end. JVC fixes issues on a yearly basis while Sony seems to treat these projectors with no pride whatsoever as if they're simply a tool to make money. It's clear to me that JVC actually cares about how the projectors they make perform whereas with Sony I get the impression the formula is how can we make a product that will sell while putting in the least that we can. So in otherwords, a product with some market appeal that performs about as good as the competition or worse off knowing people will still buy it because it has the Sony name despite some of the deficiencies. This and the fact that they still haven't corrected issues going back to 2011 with their 4K lineup is why I give Sony such a hard time.
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Here you go folks:
Both product information sheets attached ;)
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I found the video from my UB900 to look a tad better than the Oppo, to be honest. I'd be interested to see HD upscaled by a UB900 or UB820. I'll bet it looks great. Let the player upscale to 4K and then see what happens. We need to check the output source at Cedia.
I agree. Panasonic's upscaler is superior as compared with OPPO's :)
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UPDATE:
Good news folks. The rumour of mosquito video noise afflicting the new JVC projectors with respect to native 4K content has been definitively debunked as being false. There is absolutely ZERO video noise with native 4K content.
The video noise appears to manifest exclusively when HD1080p content is inputted to and upscaled to 4K/8K resolution by the projector. It is not recommended to have the projector upscale HD to 4K anyway but to do this prior in the video chain and to input all content to the projector as native 4K.
When HD1080p content is upscaled to native 4K and then fed to the projector at native 4K resolution there is absolutely zero video noise.
Furthermore, when the 8K eShift with the NX9 is turned on there is absolutely zero increase in video noise as compared with when eShift is turned off.
Thought you might like to know this in case you heard the rumour ;)
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I agree. Panasonic's upscaler is superior as compared with OPPO's :)
Do you have a opinion about the Xbox One S upscaling in comparison to the Panasonic UB900 ?
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I agree. Panasonic's upscaler is superior as compared with OPPO's :)
That is good to hear, because once I 100% confirm the new JVC's can do vertical stretch with 4K 60P source, I will probably sell my Oppo.
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Mike, if I remember correctly, you're using an anamorphic lens out of necessity due to room size/throw constraints?
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That is good to hear, because once I 100% confirm the new JVC's can do vertical stretch with 4K 60P source, I will probably sell my Oppo.
And use what? Panny 820?
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That is good to hear, because once I 100% confirm the new JVC's can do vertical stretch with 4K 60P source, I will probably sell my Oppo.
And use what? Panny 820?
That would be my recommendation. Although you won't need the Panny's HDR Optimizer because the new JVC's already have the same thing built-in! ;)
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The thing I like about the Oppo is the 21:9 setting where it scales to 16:9 with a button press. With a 2.35 screen I don't have to constantly zoom in and out using the lens memory settings.
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The thing I like about the Oppo is the 21:9 setting where it scales to 16:9 with a button press. With a 2.35 screen I don't have to constantly zoom in and out using the lens memory settings.
On this subject , just how much resolution is being lost by doing this?
I use this feature as well from time to time when i cant be bothered changing the lens memory, but just wondering how much it is compromising the image?
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That would be my recommendation. Although you won't need the Panny's HDR Optimizer because the new JVC's already have the same thing built-in! ;)
Regarding this: do you have any idea (and I realize it may not be possible just yet to answer this) how the JVC's implementation of this tone-mapping function compares with how it is being done with the UB820 (which is receiving rave reviews in this regard)?
One reason I ask is that if the JVC's is just as good, it could also be used for streaming HDR content from Netflix, Amazon, etc. (correct?), while the UB-820 apparently does not allow this at this time. If that is the case, then I could potentially put that $500 towards the purchase of the N7 (to replace my current RS400).
Thanks!
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Regarding this: do you have any idea (and I realize it may not be possible just yet to answer this) how the JVC's implementation of this tone-mapping function compares with how it is being done with the UB820 (which is receiving rave reviews in this regard)?
One reason I ask is that if the JVC's is just as good, it could also be used for streaming HDR content from Netflix, Amazon, etc. (correct?), while the UB-820 apparently does not allow this at this time. If that is the case, then I could potentially put that $500 towards the purchase of the N7 (to replace my current RS400).
Thanks!
Both the JVC's and the Panasonic's corresponding 'Auto HDR Tone-Mapping' features in this regard operate the same way. They both analyze the static metadata MAX CLL and MAX FALL and automatically adjust the tone mapping accordingly. So yes, they are extremely similar.
But by having this kind of functionality built into the projector, as opposed to a singular item of source equipment, this will of course function with all HDR content that is fed to the projector, whereas with the Panasonic you are limited to whatever media it supports. So, yes, with the new JVCs you can indeed stream HDR content from Netflix, Amazon, etc. to the projector and it will apply the 'Auto HDR Tone-Mapping' (as long as you have it turned on of course). How cool is that? 8)
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Both the JVC's and the Panasonic's corresponding 'Auto HDR Tone-Mapping' features in this regard operate in the same way. They both analyze the static metadata MAX CLL and MAX FALL and automatically adjust the tone mapping accordingly. So yes, they are extremely similar.
But by having this kind of functionality built into the projector, as opposed to a singular item of source equipment, this will of course function with all HDR content that is fed to the projector, whereas with the Panasonic you are limited to whatever media it supports. So, yes, with the new JVCs you can indeed stream HDR content from Netflix, Amazon, etc. to the projector and it will apply the 'Auto HDR Tone-Mapping'
(as long as you have it turned on of course). How cool is that? 8)
Very cool, indeed, although I can think of perhaps 7,000 or so reasons why this is definitely not cool!! :-X :-X
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Very cool, indeed, although I can think of perhaps 7,000 or so reasons why this is definitely not cool!! :-X :-X
Such as? You own a JVC 7000 perhaps? ;)
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I should add that another cool feature is that it also informs you what is the media's MAX CLL and MAX FALL as well: 8)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/NEW-JVC-4K-PROJECTORS/i-MGRP9SF/0/4f202de4/X3/MAX%20CLL%20MAX%20FALL-X3.jpg)
AND there's a 'MAPPING LEVEL' slider for use with large and small screen sizes. This is akin to diffuse white and brightness factor adjustment with respect to the gamma, which makes the overall image brighter or darker accordingly. However, it is worth noting that the brighter the image, the less the headroom for the bright highlights. So you will need to be careful not to increase this too much or else this will blow highlights; and counterwise if you reduce this too much you will crush shadow detail at near black:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/NEW-JVC-4K-PROJECTORS/i-GNSPcRQ/0/dcbe8f77/X3/MAPPING%20LEVEL%20SLIDER-X3.jpg)
Without a doubt, the JVC ‘Auto Tone Mapping’ feature is a very significant improvement as compared with the pre-existing / previous HDR functionality, and possibly is even superior as compared with typical utilization of custom gamma curves :)
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I should add that another cool feature is that it also informs you what is the media's MAX CLL and MAX FALL as well: 8)
AND there's a 'MAPPING LEVEL' slider for use with adjusting to different screen sizes, where this increases or decreases the range. So for example with larger sized screens you can move the slider to the right and this will increase the overall brightness of the image, but at the expense of reducing the headroom for bright highlights at the top end:
Yeah, thi$ i$ pretty impre$$ive. If it ju$t weren't for tho$e $even thou$and or $o other rea$on$!! ??? :P
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Pardon the slight tangent from the main topic of the new projector line, but regarding the UB820 and the issue where we can't use SDR-2020 with streaming HDR content, I have been in touch with Robert Zohn, and with his permission, here is what he said:
I am working with Panasonic’s engineers in Japan about making SDR/2020 work for HDR/2020 content from Netflix and other streaming services.
I can’t say for sure if this will be implemented in a firmware update as it seems to be something Netflix is forcing. Still checking so stand by for an official answer.
He said he'd get back to me either way, that he's en route to CEDIA, so here's hoping for something positive from Panasonic on this!
And now back to your regularly scheduled programming....
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I have found the Panasonic 820's white tone control to also be effective in reducing clipping and intensity of brighter specular highlights. You can also see the reduction of clipping with it on the Sony UHD test pattern (which is on any Sony UHD BD...just type in 7669 with the remote on the main menu of the disc). Hopefully JVC includes this as a similar feature as I find it worthwhile for sure.
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I have found the Panasonic 820's white tone control to also be effective in reducing clipping and intensity of brighter specular highlights. You can also see the reduction of clipping with it on the Sony UHD test pattern (which is on any Sony UHD BD...just type in 7669 with the remote on the main menu of the disc). Hopefully JVC includes this as a similar feature as I find it worthwhile for sure.
When I read about the black and white tone controls, I wondered if these were analogous to the JVC's Dark Level and Bright Level Gamma controls, enabling you to adjust the bottom and top ends of the curve, while having minimal effect on the rest of it. I could definitely see that being useful to fine-tune things.
I'm guessing the new JVC's make those adjustments as part of its optimizer and tone-mapping. I forget if I've seen screen captures, and am wondering if they have these same Gamma adjustments as the current generations, and if these are what gets tweaked as part of its processing.
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I wonder if this tone mapping functionality took Sony and Epson by surprise? I wonder if we'll see this functionality set the standard among higher-end projectors in the industry and all subsequent models from all of these companies will have it. It's definitely something that's needed due to the variable nature of projection setups and their limited brightness capabilities. I wonder how it will compare to using MadVR's tone mapping functionality. I plan on playing around with both to see which one looks better.
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I wonder if this tone mapping functionality took Sony and Epson by surprise? I wonder if we'll see this functionality set the standard among higher-end projectors in the industry and all subsequent models from all of these companies will have it. It's definitely something that's needed due to the variable nature of projection setups and their limited brightness capabilities. I wonder how it will compare to using MadVR's tone mapping functionality. I plan on playing around with both to see which one looks better.
I think it's fair to say that pretty much everything about JVCs new projectors took SONY by surprise... ;) ;D
I would expect MadVR to be superior, so I will be very interested to hear your feedback regarding which is better and hence whether or not this is the case.
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The thing I like about the Oppo is the 21:9 setting where it scales to 16:9 with a button press. With a 2.35 screen I don't have to constantly zoom in and out using the lens memory settings.
I use my HD250 with the lens zoomed on a 2:35:1 screen. It's a bit of a pain having to manually adjust the lens when going back and forth between 1.78:1 and 2.35:1 content, but it's livable. Not being able to see the info display of the Blu-ray player is an annoyance, and the rumored 2.35:1/21:9 feature on the Oppo (as well as its reputation) always had me wishing after one. Now they're gone, but it sounds like the Panasonic 820 is the heir-apparent in all but a 2.35:1/21:9 mode.
Aside from just selecting the 1.78:1 lens memory setting and putting mileage on the lens motors, is there a feature on the new JVC models that would make this annoyance go away? I suspect I need to find a champion in the Panasonic firmware engineering department instead...
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I think it's fair to say that pretty much everything about JVCs new projectors took SONY by surprise... ;) ;D
I would expect MadVR to be superior, so I will be very interested to hear your feedback regarding which is better and hence whether or not this is the case.
Did Sony mention something about this when you had your meeting with them?
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I use my HD250 with the lens zoomed on a 2:35:1 screen. It's a bit of a pain having to manually adjust the lens when going back and forth between 1.78:1 and 2.35:1 content, but it's livable. Not being able to see the info display of the Blu-ray player is an annoyance, and the rumored 2.35:1/21:9 feature on the Oppo (as well as its reputation) always had me wishing after one. Now they're gone, but it sounds like the Panasonic 820 is the heir-apparent in all but a 2.35:1/21:9 mode.
Aside from just selecting the 1.78:1 lens memory setting and putting mileage on the lens motors, is there a feature on the new JVC models that would make this annoyance go away? I suspect I need to find a champion in the Panasonic firmware engineering department instead...
I doubt the new JVC's have a feature like this. Since the Panasonic doesn't have it you could try and find a used oppo 203 or buy a Lumagen Radiance Pro. :)
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Arrow- Did the JVC engineers mention anything about the auto tone mapping being available to RS4500 owners via firmware updater?
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Arrow- Did the JVC engineers mention anything about the auto tone mapping being available to RS4500 owners via firmware updater?
Yes, this is reportedly likely to happen; although not definitively confirmed until JVC officially say so ;)
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Mike, if I remember correctly, you're using an anamorphic lens out of necessity due to room size/throw constraints?
Yes, though I do like the other advantages, such as increased light and quick accurate aspect ratio changes.
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And use what? Panny 820?
Yes, if I can make enough to more than pay for the Panny.
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That would be my recommendation. Although you won't need the Panny's HDR Optimizer because the new JVC's already have the same thing built-in! ;)
Yes, will have to take that into account. If the JVC on it's own does very well, then player does not matter.
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The thing I like about the Oppo is the 21:9 setting where it scales to 16:9 with a button press. With a 2.35 screen I don't have to constantly zoom in and out using the lens memory settings.
That is why it comes down to the JVC having vertical stretch for 4k 60P content.
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I snuck in early to Cedia. Still putting the place together. Lots of very exciting things coming - tomorrow !
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40858899_10217115720906193_3423919263759466496_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=817bbba35f4b1f7ab1993fd9a0d37aca&oe=5C279606)
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41072491_10217115720546184_7827583622151405568_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=8ac887f07ef203df0580d1d489a2736e&oe=5BED9AFE)
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41051484_10217115720106173_484077341501292544_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=fb6260678aa053b70d4d044f77a6538f&oe=5BF952DF)
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Quick! Grab a projector! :P ;D
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Grab two!
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An eshifter still there? I sense maybe JVC keeping one eshifter on sale at the bottom end of their price spectrum. A smart move if you ask me.
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The new Sony lineup - all the lenses are safely tucked away until tomorrow -
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41097956_10217115825628811_3956011225778749440_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=5a5f30fad548958dbe9e1897dc7e8c08&oe=5C30FFA2)
Stewart Filmscreen getting ready with a new Director's Choice screen - and a bad ass Digital Projection light cannon -
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40994714_10217115826628836_1314398943357960192_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=eb8df971b35f36733e204f8889731b64&oe=5C25E2CA)
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41199847_10217115826348829_1182038470885900288_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=e0f88f5e842dad7b1de785d73e6c29df&oe=5BF3F373)
Digital Projection 4K display -
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41013786_10217115826188825_8402648510083629056_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=425f3d7b4fe8c6f61640fa9b9fa46593&oe=5BF6E769)
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40914305_10217115825788815_7192610009228771328_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=9249451b08b701ed5720a87c3f423ca8&oe=5C271FC2)
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That's all until tomorrow ! ;)
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The new JVC's are up on their webpage -
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL102548
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL102549
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL102550
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Oh man the Director's choice screen!
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It also features a new scaling mode that is optimized for the full native 4096 x 2160 (17 x 9) resolution of the D-ILA device.
Excellent! So, this will be good for the Panamorph Paladin DCR lens. 8) :)
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You were correct when you said that the MSRP's would go up on the new models...
Hopefully the reviews of the DLA-RS1000 are stellar, because the others are out of reach. Either I'm going to have to look for a used/closeout RS540U and hope the audible e-shift noise isn't bothersome (impossible to know without being there in person), or I'll be waiting a good long time before I replace my HD250.
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It also features a new scaling mode that is optimized for the full native 4096 x 2160 (17 x 9) resolution of the D-ILA device.
Excellent! So, this will be good for the Panamorph Paladin DCR lens. 8) :)
Yes ! This is great. Cedia opens in 90 minutes -I feel like a kid on Christmas morning waiting to see these !!
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Yes ! This is great. Cedia opens in 90 minutes -I feel like a kid on Christmas morning waiting to see these !!
It's all three models as well. Very nice! :)
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It's all three models as well. Very nice! :)
And in all the Sony 4K projectors too - even the least expensive one now.
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And in all the Sony 4K projectors too - even the least expensive one now.
Sony? Oh yeah, right! ;) ;D
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Going back to Cedia in an hour for day two - stay tuned !
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So aside from JVC & Sony, is there any other activity? I assume we would have heard of something from Epson if there was more than the new 4050. Optoma? BenQ? Anyone? Bueller?
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In Europe, from the HDLand reseller, all 4K native with 8K eShift for the NX9:
N5:
Contraste: 40 000:1
Luminosité: 1800 Lumens
Prix: 5 500€
Disponibilité: courant octobre
N7:
Contraste: 80 000:1
Luminosité: 1900 Lumens
Prix: 8 000€
Disponibilité: courant octobre
NX9:
Contraste: 100 000:1
Luminosité: 2200 Lumens
Prix: 17 999€
Disponibilité: fin octobre
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So aside from JVC & Sony, is there any other activity? I assume we would have heard of something from Epson if there was more than the new 4050. Optoma? BenQ? Anyone? Bueller?
I'll have to double check but i thought I read Epson has some refresh models coming out to replace their current eshifters. Minor improvements, nothing native 4K.
BenQ has a new pixel shifter too with a laser light engine.
Edit: I stand corrected. Its LED based, not laser.
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So aside from JVC & Sony, is there any other activity? I assume we would have heard of something from Epson if there was more than the new 4050. Optoma? BenQ? Anyone? Bueller?
I saw the 4050 - that's all that's new from Epson. It was " ok for the price " . :-\
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Did not see the BenQ.
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Did not see the BenQ.
Apparently BenQ wasn't there so the X12000H / HT9060 obviously wasn't there. Looks like an intriguing entry into the DLP XPR camp. I see elsewhere that it claims 98% DCI/P3, uses the Philips Colorspark LED light engine, supports Blu-ray 3D and has a very high quality lens. Of course the ultimate black levels won't match the LCOS contenders but I'm just surprised that it's got 3D support, which I had understood wasn't supported in the XPR chipset so I wonder if there has been an update there.
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I noticed a post on the other forum that got relatively unnoticed. Someone posted a video (that was in German) which discussed the new 4K panels found in these new JVC models. Luckily Madshi is German and gave us a paraphrased account of what was said.
He said:
Interesting. He's saying the new 4K panels are so different to the previous generation that they couldn't just put them into the Z1/RS4500, although they would have liked to. So it seems it will take some work to create a Z2 with the new panels.
Also, the new models are 24db instead of 21db, so a bit louder. However, the frequency of the noise is supposed to be less annoying, so subjective noise levels should be roughly identical to previous models.
JVC realized to make these projectors sell well they needed to increase contrast performance. Hence the new "3rd" generation panels I heard mentioned by Chris Deutsch of JVC in an interview given at CEDIA. I really appreciate JVC hearing our concerns and making sure what we want becomes a reality.
I also noticed someone say they think these new panels are internally refreshing at 480hz now based on some high frame rate slow motion footage they took of the new models at CEDIA. I wonder if we can confirm this?
So we're seeing upgrades in:
ANSI contrast
Native resolution
Panel Refresh
Lens quality
Video processing (HDR and CMD)
Input sync times
USB port for updates
All of these have been criticisms towards JVC so it's nice to see them directly address them. I'm hoping these panels are a little better with native motion handling too. Yes, we see a hit in native contrast, but it's still better than Sony and Epson and I fully expect JVC to continually increase contrast in the coming years. I think once we get a small increase in native contrast and a laser light source I'll be pretty close to owning my "perfect" projector...at least as far as foreseeable future goes for the type of content I'll be watching (UHD Bluray). :)
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I wonder if the Z1 limitation on taking the new chips is optics/light path or electronics. I was really hoping to see a new laser based design even if it is $$$.
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I would imagine JVC needed to find a way to reduce the cost of these new 4K panels and associated hardware to make them feasible at the current MSRPs we're seeing the new models at. I would image the panel drivers and video processing solution aren't quite as high quality as what was found on the Z1 and this is where the cost savings come in. The Z1's panels are probably not compatible with these new panel drivers and other control hardware/software, thus not being able to be retrofit into the Z1. Just my guess.
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Looks like a new remote design this year:
(https://i.imgur.com/HpZemYn.jpg)
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Looks like a new remote design this year:
(https://i.imgur.com/HpZemYn.jpg)
I saw that new remote in the RS3000 presentation. Looks clean and uncluttered.
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JVC DLA-RS1000 / NX5
With respect to the following photos please note that this is an uncalibrated pre-production unit.
Therefore this has not been calibrated for accurate D65 white balance and there is a slight blue push.
Also, the projector was/is installed high up on ceiling with a large degree of vertical lens shift being applied.
And due to being a prototype unit with beta firmware, the dynamic contrast functionality was turned off; meaning this is with the projector operating at only 1/10th of its capability (max 40,000:1 ON/OFF versus 400,000:1)
Consequently, as impressive as is the performance as shown in these professional photography screenshots taken on the projector on demo at CEDIA 2018, the production units will produce even better performance than this.
Here you go:
TOP LEFT:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-NX5/i-XgfTnNZ/0/df50a382/O/TOP%20LEFT.jpg)
TOP MIDDLE:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-NX5/i-ckhJVN2/0/cfa8f3b4/O/TOP%20MIDDLE.jpg)
TOP RIGHT:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-NX5/i-nfxpj6r/0/cfbdc5d1/O/TOP%20RIGHT.jpg)
MIDDLE LEFT:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-NX5/i-QFSbVH8/0/33e9b4b2/O/MIDDLE%20LEFT.jpg)
MIDDLE MIDDLE:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-NX5/i-vBz6mS8/0/429ce757/O/MIDDLE%20CENTRE.jpg)
MIDDLE RIGHT:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-NX5/i-WCjB37s/0/52e10bf5/O/MIDDLE%20RIGHT.jpg)
BOTTOM LEFT:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-NX5/i-ZfHJ5tb/0/ee595963/O/BOTTOM%20LEFT.jpg)
BOTTOM MIDDLE:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-NX5/i-cMFm4zT/0/4b49670a/O/BOTTOM%20MIDDLE.jpg)
BOTTOM RIGHT:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-NX5/i-84SWLSh/0/40d06d20/O/BOTTOM%20RIGHT.jpg)
HERE'S A SINGLE PIXEL NATIVE 4K CHECKERBOARD TEST PATTERN:
The JVC DLA-RS1000/NX5 RESOLVES THIS PERFECTLY!:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-NX5/i-tNbN68M/0/951aeef1/O/SINGLE%20PIXEL%20CHECKERBOARD.jpg)
AND HERE'S A FEW MOVIE SCREENSHOTS:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-NX5/i-5xXvTqm/0/2eb33864/O/BLADE%20RUNNER%202049%201.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-NX5/i-Q8M6rVn/0/2a3127c3/O/GREATEST%20SHOWMAN%202.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-NX5/i-WpkCPBD/0/562435c8/O/GREATEST%20SHOWMAN%201.jpg)
;)
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Seen this in the other forum but, it's impressive to look at again 8) Thanks for posting, Nigel. :)
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Can't wait to see one in person! It's good to hear production units are expected to be even better.
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I wonder if this tone mapping functionality took Sony and Epson by surprise? I wonder if we'll see this functionality set the standard among higher-end projectors in the industry and all subsequent models from all of these companies will have it. It's definitely something that's needed due to the variable nature of projection setups and their limited brightness capabilities. I wonder how it will compare to using MadVR's tone mapping functionality. I plan on playing around with both to see which one looks better.
In lieu of being caught with their pants down, Sony should start catching up by updating every projector from the last 2 years with every enhancement they can lever out of the hardware and then they need to develop an entirely new platform for their next generation projectors that NEED to have resolved every ancient underlying issue that has ever been brought up/fed back to them. :)
………If they don't want to hand the market over to JVC that is.
I can imagine some short sighted Sony exec in a meeting saying that they are too big in the market, so they will never lose enough of their market share to JVC to worry about it...
Well, unless things change, JVC will be my next purchase if the results from the projector comparisons go the way that everyone is expecting! :D 8)
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In lieu of being caught with their pants down, Sony should start catching up by updating every projector from the last 2 years with every enhancement they can lever out of the hardware and then they need to develop an entirely new platform for their next generation projectors that NEED to have resolved every ancient underlying issue that has ever been brought up/fed back to them. :)
………If they don't want to hand the market over to JVC that is.
I can imagine some short sighted Sony exec in a meeting saying that they are too big in the market, so they will never lose enough of their market share to JVC to worry about it...
Well, unless things change, JVC will be my next purchase if the results from the projector comparisons go the way that everyone is expecting! :D 8)
From what I've personally seen Sony has already given JVC the market. That's the case when we look at overall image quality. I'm not lying or embellishing at all when I say that I would rather own a JVC DLA-RS440 over a Sony VPL-VW885ES. I think in many objective and subjective ways the $3999 JVC projector beats the $25,000 Sony projector. And now the $3999 model is the RS540 which is an even better projector. These new native 4K models simply widen the gap even further in my opinion. But obviously I will wait to make a final judgement call on that once I get my RS2000 and can do a proper comparison.
Sony has one big thing going for it and that's brand appeal. People simply like owning a product with the Sony name on it. Now, I'm not saying their projectors look bad, on the contrary, they look excellent. I would own a Sony projector right now if JVC weren't making projectors. Sony is only beaten out by JVC in my opinion. Epson could be doing better in the enthusiast market if they wanted to but for some reason aren't producing more higher end models. I do think Sony goes about manufacturing projectors based upon knowing they have a much more widely known and trusted brand name. They know they don't have to give as much for the money (or even charge more) and people will still buy their projectors. This is one of the main reasons why you see more enthusiasts own JVC projectors over Sony models. Enthusiasts don't care about the brand name as much. They're more about performance and bang for the buck, which is why most of us own JVCs.
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The only DLP faux k that I thought looked pretty good was the Hisense dual laser.
The 3000 looked good, but I felt I saw a "vibrating" to the image. Not sure if this was the eshift or what it was. Someone else said he saw the same. Hopefully this is isolated to the pre-production unit.
The JVC 1000 looked really good and hopefully will be that much better when the production units come out.
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I've contemplated about going to CEDIA a few times, but my impression is that you never really get a good look at anything while you're there. Plus, the nature of pre-production units makes it difficult to really judge performance. I live vicariously through you guys during CEDIA each year. :)
Good to hear about the HiSense model. I hope I can see one at some point. You're not the first person who I've heard that from with this model.
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Absolutely agree regarding the $13,000 Hisense 120L10E Dual Laser projector :)
I would love to see the likes of JVC and SONY introduce dual red and blue laser projectors ;)
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Looking at the spec sheet now for the HiSense. I like how straight forward they are with the numbers. Listing a truthful 1500:1 native contrast ratio but also what they acheive dynamically.
I assume part of the magic with this projector is the screen they include? DLP can be greatly helped with a nice ALR and grey (or black) base color screen.
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Looking at the spec sheet now for the HiSense. I like how straight forward they are with the numbers. Listing a truthful 1500:1 native contrast ratio but also what they acheive dynamically.
I assume part of the magic with this projector is the screen they include? DLP can be greatly helped with a nice ALR and grey (or black) base color screen.
There isn't really any magic. The contrast and blacks with low APL content look terrible. But the chroma performance is superb due to the dual laser. Reds and skin tones in particular are a noticeable step up in performance, not unexpectedly! ;)
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What about the Wolf PRO-817 laser driven DLP using the XPR chip? It's received some very good notice elsewhere. $10k.
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Wolf doesn't usually get talked about too much because they're simply rebadging other projectors and calling them their own. That model seems to be an Optoma UHZ65 laser projector in a fancy chassis. I'm sure out of the box, color/greyscale/gamma ect all look better than what you get from a UHZ65, but that's a big premium to pay for it.
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The only DLP faux k that I thought looked pretty good was the Hisense dual laser.
The 3000 looked good, but I felt I saw a "vibrating" to the image. Not sure if this was the eshift or what it was. Someone else said he saw the same. Hopefully this is isolated to the pre-production unit.
The JVC 1000 looked really good and hopefully will be that much better when the production units come out.
I don't recall seeing any " vibrating " on the image. There was moire on the Moracco brass vender stall scene, but I'd bet that's in the video. Did you have your face up against the screen ? If it's related to the 8K eshift, just turn it off I say.
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What about the Wolf PRO-817 laser driven DLP using the XPR chip? It's received some very good notice elsewhere. $10k.
I see rainbows on all the single chip DLP's out these days. So for me they are a no go.
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I've contemplated about going to CEDIA a few times, but my impression is that you never really get a good look at anything while you're there. Plus, the nature of pre-production units makes it difficult to really judge performance. I live vicariously through you guys during CEDIA each year. :)
Good to hear about the HiSense model. I hope I can see one at some point. You're not the first person who I've heard that from with this model.
Darin told me that if the show had been in Seattle that he probably wouldn't have stayed more than a couple of hours. Remember he isn't into audio. I did most of what I wanted to see in two days or less. Really like Haflich once said, I go to see the people and hang out with like minded folks. Remember Kossman's Crt meet.
As for the Hisense, some guy named Nigel thought the colors looked good. :) I believe Mike thought it was interesting as well. I don't recall what Darin thought.
Arrow did expand on his thoughts and is correct. If this pj could significantly bring up the contrast, then it would be something.
I did ask about a regular front pj. One guy said no plans. They must think there is a big market in these UST pjs with screen and audio. I still think it is to expensive, but what do I know. I think they are tacking on the retail price of a Black Diamond screen even though this is their own screen.
Hisense is located in Johns Creek. No surprise as my sister says it has become very Asian. Next time I am in Atlanta, I will try to stop in.
I forgot to add that Mike said Calman is included with IIRC the top model. All you need is a probe.
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What about the Wolf PRO-817 laser driven DLP using the XPR chip? It's received some very good notice elsewhere. $10k.
As Dylan said, it is an Optoma with their "own special sauce". Seymour had it in his booth. It looked pretty good, but not $10k plus good. The Wolf guy was proud of his pj, but I am not sure who would buy this.
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I don't recall seeing any " vibrating " on the image. There was moire on the Moracco brass vender stall scene, but I'd bet that's in the video. Did you have your face up against the screen ? If it's related to the 8K eshift, just turn it off I say.
Nope, I saw it multiple times. I only mention it and wouldn't knock the pj for it yet. Someone else told me the same at the Samsung party.
If it is eshift related, then yes I would turn off the eshift. My guess is it won't be there on production units. I am sure Kris and Nigel will put it through the wringer.
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Darin told me that if the show had been in Seattle that he probably wouldn't have stayed more than a couple of hours. Remember he isn't into audio. I did most of what I wanted to see in two days or less. Really like Haflich once said, I go to see the people and hang out with like minded folks. Remember Kossman's Crt meet.
As for the Hisense, some guy named Nigel thought the colors looked good. :) I believe Mike thought it was interesting as well. I don't recall what Darin thought.
Arrow did expand on his thoughts and is correct. If this pj could significantly bring up the contrast, then it would be something.
I did ask about a regular front pj. One guy said no plans. They must think there is a big market in these UST pjs with screen and audio. I still think it is to expensive, but what do I know. I think they are tacking on the retail price of a Black Diamond screen even though this is their own screen.
Hisense is located in Johns Creek. No surprise as my sister says it has become very Asian. Next time I am in Atlanta, I will try to stop in.
I forgot to add that Mike said Calman is included with IIRC the top model. All you need is a probe.
If it were in Seattle, I'd probably make the trip out and ask Kris if we could do a little theater meet at his place. I think we'd all have a good time, plus I'd love to finally meet Kris and some of the other guys. I had a great time at the CRT meet. I was surprised Mark Seaton showed up (as it was primarily a projector meet). He's a real class act who knows his stuff. I suppose he was there to tweak the audio system he installed and wow was it impressive! I remember listening to the 5.1 SACD mix of Tumbleweed Connection and my jaw dropped.
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Most of us that go to Cedia are there on business. I spent 24 full hours over 3 days on the floor and still didn't visit everyone or see everything I wanted too. It's different if you are an enthusiast. If I didn't work in the industry, I'd only go if I was planning on spending big bucks on something myself.
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Most of us that go to Cedia are there on business. I spent 24 full hours over 3 days on the floor and still didn't visit everyone or see everything I wanted too. It's different if you are an enthusiast. If I didn't work in the industry, I'd only go if I was planning on spending big bucks on something myself.
Yep, with all of our meetings, I did not get to see a few things that I wanted to. I ran out of time and did not get into the IMAX demo.
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Ekki over at cine4home seems to be doing well now and is back in full swing reviewing projectors. His first look at a series of 295ES and 695ES units from Sony shows incremental improvements. The full write up can be found here (http://cine4home.de/sony-vpl-vw270-vw570-exklusive-ergebnisse-zum-serienschnitt/?fbclid=IwAR35N7XLJFu9F8fUnc_S9TNxaxDZ86jYC7RIA18vDNiyX8--wKXaqZaxEhY). The 295ES averaged among units tested; 1300 max calibrated lumens, 13000:1 minimum native contrast (more achievable with less zoom, but at the cost of lumen output), ANSI contrast of 420:1 and input lag with a UHD source of only 27ms. These numbers are pretty close to last years models. Ekki does note that quality control for things like lens focus uniformity, focus strength and convergence seem to be a step up from previous years based on what he saw with the batch of units he received.
However, the same issues that have plagued Sony 4K projectors are still present. Banding from the software convergence software and posterization due to issues feeding the SXRD panels information properly. The former he claims cannot be seen with real content. I disagree as I've seen this artifact with real content before. Users are forced to go into the service menu to disable it, which many people are not comfortable doing. The latter he claims is an issue with PWM and while that may be true, JVC and Epson feed their panels information this same way and posterization issues anywhere near this scale are not found with DiLA and LQoS. However, it is nice to see that he has FINALLY mentioned this issue in one of his Sony reviews. This is the first time I've seen him mention it in a review. He says:
But the color resolution of the VW series is still not perfect: The fully digital color generation via pulse width modulation (fast clocking of the pixels) shows losses in some subtle nuances, which leads to "posterization".
(https://i.imgur.com/YKKD2lS.jpg)
The better the starting material, the lower the effects are perceived. While this is undoubtedly "whining at a high level", we set the appropriate standards for the product class.
I find this statement in bold a little ironic. In his N5 (RS1000) first look he mentioned something that is truly insignificant in context and by comparison on JVC projectors. He mentions the issue with dithering noise in dark parts of the image. He actually listed that as a negative in his first look at the N5. The irony is that JVC's issue is apparently a big deal and the Sony's is "whining at a high level". Sony's issue does the image a lot more harm. Sony's issue literally takes away digital resolution any time there is complex color (ie anytime you're playing back video) and JVCs add some fine mosquito noise. What sounds worse? My takeaway is that this posterization issue effectively makes these SXRD projectors fail at being true 4K. If you can't give all your pixels discreet color information how can you call it a native device? It guess I just don't understand why he isn't as upset as I am. It certainly does the picture more harm than ANY of the negative aspects of JVC's DILA projectors. Maybe I've misunderstood or there's been something lost in translation. It just seems to me Ekki is being a little unfair. If he's a member of this forum I hope he can discuss his thoughts on all of this. Though, again, I will give him credit for at least mentioning it in his review.
The 295ES does not offer the RS1000 competition in my opinion. The RS1000 should be several hundred lumens brighter, have an order of magnitude more dynamic contrast available to it, similar (probably better based on what I've seen) lens quality and image sharpness, full color resolution capabilities to accurately display UHD-bluray content which the Sony lacks, similar color gamut capabilities and a similar enough video processing suite. With the price being so close, I find it hard to find a reason why anyone would choose the Sony over the JVC. You really need to step up to the higher end Sony's for them to start making more sense. The two bottom end units from Sony just don't offer enough performance at the asking price for people to consider buying them. Though I'm sure those less informed walk-ins at the boutique home theater shops or those buying it for the Sony name will help Sony move a lot of units still.
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Well, to be fair, the JVC image noise has been there for a long time and I often notice it in demos - it's one of the things that distinguish it from other products when doing split screen comparison (along with contrast and black levels of course). The micro flicker not so much, so I think it's nice to see someone actually mention it in a review. For me it means the overall image appears less stable than some other models so it's not a positive attribute and one that I'd like to see remedied. I think c4h attribute it to the panels being digitally addressed (pwm) rather than analogue and not all projectors are doing it that way so not all pjs have that problem. I would think with the 4k JVC models, the pixels being smaller may mean that it's less visible, depending on your seating distance. I don't know how the 4500 does it, but owners like Craig say they find the image cleaner and more stable than the lamp based units and that is one of the reasons they prefer the image despite the contrast deficit.
No projector is perfect and I don't see a problem with these things being pointed out, after all, the Sony's banding although present in some images is a similar issue that doesn't bother everyone and I think some owners prefer the Sony image to the JVCs despite the reduced contrast. We just have to accept the pros and cons of each and pick our poison.
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It's not really about whether a projector is perfect or not. It's about the relatively of the issues present. I just found it odd that one gets a pass and the other criticized making it to the negative list at the end of a review.
Interestingly enough the Sony 4K models have non-defeatable noise reduction. What this means is that the image processing can actually take away grain in the image that's supposed to be there. That doesn't happen on the JVCs. What a lot of people assume is dither noise is actually noise in the source and the noise reduction on the Sony makes it appear as if the JVC is noisier. The noise reduction widens the noise gap even if it's supposed to be there and I suspect what most assume is an artifact is actually source related. A lot of the time what people see as an issue with the JVC is actually an issue with the Sony. The dither noise only occurs in dark areas (lower IREs) of the image. So if the noise you or anyone saw in a comparison was in medium to bright content it was supposed to be there and it was actually the Sony with an issue with its picture. This has been confirmed objectively by looking at source still frames on a reference monitor many times in the past.
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Here's a thought. The next time you demo a JVC, pause the image. Go up to the screen and look for dancing noise. The noise you see is dither or eshift related. Go back to your seat with the image still paused and see if you can see the image noise. I personally cannot see this type of noise from my seated position. The image noise eshift added to the image is much worse than the dither noise IMO, but I can only see if it I'm close to the screen. But now with native 4K panels it's not going to be there anymore. If you also can only see it from your screen you and not at your seat then the other noise you see is source related, not from the projector.
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I think most people are well aware of the Sony issues (banding, noise reduction etc which has been there for ages, panel degradation may be fixed though), but I don't think you're doing yourself any favours by referring to Sony owners as 'fanboys' just because that's their preference. It could just as easily be said that you're a JVC fanboy and have bias, especially given your reaction to Ekki's comments. Don't take it so personally.
It's just a question of balance and what people prefer. You clearly don't like the Sony's and prefer the JVCs, whereas others are the other way round, yet that doesn't seem acceptable to you.
The JVC dither noise isn't just in dark areas, and JVC are well aware of the issue because they said that with eshift 5 they have reduced the image noise (part of their marketing blurb), so that's a clear admission that it's a pj artefact (and not a source artefact) that they're trying to remedy that. Ekki was just pointing out that it still seems to be present in the new 4K models and I don't see anything wrong with that, in the same way he's saying the banding is still present in the new Sony models. The JVC image noise is something that doesn't bother you, in the same way that the banding etc of the Sony's doesn't bother other people, but I don't see why the people with a Sony preference should be attacked for it and labelled as fanboys. Both have pros and cons and people are just choosing the image they prefer at the price point they can afford.
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I think most people are well aware of the Sony issues (banding, noise reduction etc which has been there for ages, panel degradation may be fixed though), but I don't think you're doing yourself any favours by referring to Sony owners as 'fanboys' just because that's their preference. It could just as easily be said that you're a JVC fanboy and have bias, especially given your reaction to Ekki's comments. Don't take it so personally.
It's just a question of balance and what people prefer. You clearly don't like the Sony's and prefer the JVCs, whereas others are the other way round, yet that doesn't seem acceptable to you.
The JVC dither noise isn't just in dark areas, and JVC are well aware of the issue because they said that with eshift 5 they have reduced the image noise (part of their marketing blurb), so that's a clear admission that it's a pj artefact (and not a source artefact) that they're trying to remedy that. Ekki was just pointing out that it still seems to be present in the new 4K models and I don't see anything wrong with that, in the same way he's saying the banding is still present in the new Sony models. The JVC image noise is something that doesn't bother you, in the same way that the banding etc of the Sony's doesn't bother other people, but I don't see why the people with a Sony preference should be attacked for it and labelled as fanboys. Both have pros and cons and people are just choosing the image they prefer at the price point they can afford.
The noise related to eshift is not the same issue Ekki and I are referring to. So no, its not there in all portions of the image. The noise you're thinking of is related solely to eshift as it's not there with eshift turned off. You really need to know these differences if you're going to argue with me. To reiterate this Ekki's quoted as saying "Panel PWM noise in dark grayscale as in the X series, I have specially checked with a freeze frame." Remember, the N5 is native 4K so no eshift so that only furthers my point even more.
This is not about fanboyism. Again, it's about being fair. I don't take issue with him not liking the dither noise. To each their own. It's about being fair and talking about issues and giving them criticism based on the severity of them. To give one a pass, when it objectively does more harm to the image compared to the other issue is not fair. Plain and simple.
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I would like to add that calling me a JVC fanboy seems odd to me. I've had a Sony projector from every single generation since 2010 in my theater. I've given Sony plenty of money over the years. I give Sony a shot pretty much every year. Sometimes more than once a year if I have two different models here. A fanboy is someone who defends a brand while not actually having experience with it. How many JVCs have you actually had in your theater over the years? How many eshifters? I prefer JVC because I have real world experience having owned pretty much all of the well performing home theater projectors out there over the years (minus a few uber expensive ones) and think they perform best overall. I understand that some people may still like SXRD despite the objective issues present with the projectors and that's fine, but when SXRD has issues for some reason SXRD owners have a hard time accepting them. That isn't the case with JVC owners. We openly talk about bright corners, dither noise, long sync times, ect. At even a whisper of panel degradation, poor quality control, banding, posterization, ect the owners go into mitigation mode to quiet the nay-sayers and change the topic back to "there's nothing to see here/our projectors are amazing". I've noticed lately that Sony fanboys, in what I assume are in some kind of panic mode now that JVC has cheaper native 4K machines, they're go to line is that JVC projectors are riddled with image noise and the video processing is no where near as good as what Sony offers. I've read the phrase "processing prowess" a few times regarding the Sony's. Both of these claims about the JVCs I find to be hilarious and an indicator of how desperate some are getting. Just ask Kris Deering what test patterns look like on Sony projectors. I can confirm his findings. Processing prowess indeed. This forum doesn't have a eye roll emoji which is unfortunate.
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The noise related to eshift is not the same issue Ekki and I are referring to. So no, its not there in all portions of the image. The noise you're thinking of is related solely to eshift as it's not there with eshift turned off. You really need to know these differences if you're going to argue with me. To reiterate this Ekki's quoted as saying "Panel PWM noise in dark grayscale as in the X series, I have specially checked with a freeze frame." Remember, the N5 is native 4K so no eshift so that only furthers my point even more.
This is not about fanboyism. Again, it's about being fair. I don't take issue with him not liking the dither noise. To each their own. It's about being fair and talking about issues and giving them criticism based on the severity of them. To give one a pass, when it objectively does more harm to the image compared to the other issue is not fair. Plain and simple.
Wow.
I don't think I'm the one 'arguing' here, especially given the amount of replies you made to me and the aggressiveness of the replies. I'm just trying to have a discussion, but I can see where this is going. So because I don't agree with your comments I don't know what I'm talking about so my experience etc can be dismissed and I'm to shut up and go away. Nice one Dylan. I didn't know this forum was for self appointed elitists.
Regardless, the JVC image noise is real and when compared with Sony's and Epsons side by side in split screens from normal seating distances it can be clearly seen that it's being added by the JVC. JVC are aware of this and have tried to reduce it with eshift 5, so JVC don't seem to agree with you either.
On to your other point. Now, if the panels are driven digitally then it's a drive problem, not an eshift problem, and I'm pretty sure it was there before eshift was even a thing - IIRC, and off the top of my head, I believe the early JVCs were driving the panels analogue but then went to digital so they could drive them faster, and that's when the image noise was added. I think even Greg Rogers may have mentioned it in one of his reviews back in the day.
If the 4K panels are driven digitally in the same way as the old 1080 panels, and the noise is still there because of it, I don't see it being a problem that Ekki has reported that - what's unfair about that? Simply because you think Ekki has said he thinks it's more of an issue than Sony's known issues? I think Ekki was being pretty fair, but you seem to have taken it personally and even started to attack me as well now.
All going well I'll be seeing an N5 on Tuesday and I'll see for myself if the image noise is still present and if it's still an issue or not.
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I didn't say you didn't know what you're talking about. I said if you're going to argue you need to know the differences because they are paramount to the discussion. This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing either. The noise is either there or it isn't and where it comes from matters. You said it comes from eshift, it doesn't. How can it when Ekki is looking at a native 4K, non eshift, projector? There is added noise with eshift, I agree with that, but we're talking about the N5 here, which does not use eshift so your point is moot. The N5 won't have the same noise you've mistakenly associated here as the noise Ekki and I are referring to. Ekki says dither noise in lower IRE's is still there. I'm not arguing against that. I just have a huge disagreement with him in how much worse posterization is on the Sony projectors and specifically that he gives it a pass.
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When I owned the LS10000, I A'B it to an RS400 I had here. From my seating distance with content from Planet Earth, I could not see any difference as far as video noise. My vision is at least 20/15 and anyone that knows me knows I see issues pretty readily. Closer to the screen, sure, things/warts can become noticeable.
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The LS10000 was a great projector. I didn't have the chance to have one in my theater, but I was invited over someones house to view and measure one for about 8 hours. At the time I had brought over my JVC DLA-X500 for comparison. The two units were pretty close in most areas. The JVC's lens was ever so slightly sharper, eshift on the JVC (being the 3rd generation) was more mature and better implemented and the JVC definitely had more contrast available. I did think the Epson had one of the best dynamic contrast systems I've ever seen. Probably THE best I've seen and I thought the Epson had a slightly more analog look to its image. It's a shame we haven't seen Epson update the LS series to achieve more brightness, native 4K and more contrast. It definitely could have been a contender for best overall image out there if they had.
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If anyone recalls, I had four different units through Epson swaps (3 of the units were A stock) because of unacceptable grey uniformity. The one unit I tried to live with and even had Chad calibrate it hoping the greyscale calibration would help, but it didn't in this case. I too found eshift 4 a bit sharper on the JVC based on my comparisons. Outside of that, I liked the LS10000 enough that I would have just kept it until eventuality going native 4K. However, I ended up with a nice sample RS440 which is a superior projector all of the way around except for it not being laser based. But, I'm only around 600 or so hours a year as far as usage and these new JVC lamps are very stable. In fact, I am so happy with my RS440 paired with the Panasonic 820 for tone mapping that it's hard for me to justify the cost of selling it and buying an RS1000 or RS2000 - not sure if the several thousands of dollars of upgrade cost would be worth it for me. When it comes to projectors, I've also tended to more recently lean more on the "if you're happy with it and it's not broke, don't try to fix it".
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The LS10000 was a great projector. I didn't have the chance to have one in my theater, but I was invited over someones house to view and measure one for about 8 hours. At the time I had brought over my JVC DLA-X500 for comparison. The two units were pretty close in most areas. The JVC's lens was ever so slightly sharper, eshift on the JVC (being the 3rd generation) was more mature and better implemented and the JVC definitely had more contrast available. I did think the Epson had one of the best dynamic contrast systems I've ever seen. Probably THE best I've seen and I thought the Epson had a slightly more analog look to its image. It's a shame we haven't seen Epson update the LS series to achieve more brightness, native 4K and more contrast. It definitely could have been a contender for best overall image out there if they had.
Maybe next year Epson will upgrade this to native 4K, eh ? One can hope.
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wait...
did i click on the avsforum bookmark by accident?
whats up with all the bickering
btw the answer to my own question is a resounding no.....there would have been bans issued already hahaha
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wait...
did i click on the avsforum bookmark by accident?
whats up with all the bickering
btw the answer to my own question is a resounding no.....there would have been bans issued already hahaha
No two people agree or know the same things. Things get heated sometimes especially when "fanboy" naming happens. :)