Soapbox: Snow White

[Barry]

Snow White

First, I know i have mentioned many times, too many of our movies are remakes or sequels. This includes Disney policy of making their great animated movies  into live action features. The fantasy world of animation doesn’t really fit into a real world. Let me give an example. At the beginning of the animated  Lion  King, all the animals in the forest surround the new mother of a baby lion cub. The lions look out into the forest filled with all the animals and see “the circle of life.”


In the live action feature, the lions look out in the forest and see “lunch. “


These  live action movies have been barely watchable. The Tom Hanks version of Pinocchio terrible. They even changed the ending to be totally unsatisfying. Yet, I didn’t hear anyone complain. I am deliberately posting this before the reviews come out.


I am sick and tired of seeing reviews in newspapers and on the internet from people who haven’t seen the movie yet.  They are predicting a great failure as they did with Captain Marvel.


Apparently, the new star of Snow White is not white enough for many people. Of course they didn’t complain when they met Joe Black played by Brad Pitt.  And what about Lorne Green on Bonanza! Before they  see the movie they’re complaining that Snow White is more of an independent woman than apparently she was in 1938.  Well, it’s 80 years later! All remakes update their characters.  (See The Shop Around The Corner and You’ve Got Mail). Last night I saw a feature that criticized Snow White because her hair does not exactly match the style of the girl in the cartoon. 


They did this with Brie Larson on Captain Marvel.  These crazy people put up terrible reviews before the movie came out and had a huge attack on her.. She did a terrific job in the movie and it made over $1 billion. 

[SRW1000]

Snow White

First, I know i have mentioned many times, too many of our movies are remakes or sequels. This includes Disney policy of making their great animated movies  into live action features. The fantasy world of animation doesn’t really fit into a real world. Let me give an example. At the beginning of the animated  Lion  King, all the animals in the forest surround the new mother of a baby lion cub. The lions look out into the forest filled with all the animals and see “the circle of life.”


In the live action feature, the lions look out in the forest and see “lunch. “


These  live action movies have been barely watchable. The Tom Hanks version of Pinocchio terrible. They even changed the ending to be totally unsatisfying. Yet, I didn’t hear anyone complain. I am deliberately posting this before the reviews come out.


I am sick and tired of seeing reviews in newspapers and on the internet from people who haven’t seen the movie yet.  They are predicting a great failure as they did with Captain Marvel.


Apparently, the new star of Snow White is not white enough for many people. Of course they didn’t complain when they met Joe Black played by Brad Pitt.  And what about Lorne Green on Bonanza! Before they  see the movie they’re complaining that Snow White is more of an independent woman than apparently she was in 1938.  Well, it’s 80 years later! All remakes update their characters.  (See The Shop Around The Corner and You’ve Got Mail). Last night I saw a feature that criticized Snow White because her hair does not exactly match the style of the girl in the cartoon.


They did this with Brie Larson on Captain Marvel.  These crazy people put up terrible reviews before the movie came out and had a huge attack on her.. She did a terrific job in the movie and it made over $1 billion.

I'm going to agree and disagree with you, Barry.

We're in complete agreement on the growing number of unnecessary remakes.  Especially the live action versions of animated classics.  There appears to be no point other than an easy cash grab.  There are plenty of old, untouched, cultural tales from across the world that could be mined for new movies if producing completely original content.

Where I will disagree with you are the advance negative reactions.  Yes, it is absurd that Rachel Zegler was selected for the role and that she's independent and assertive.  Snow White was literally named because of her skin tone, because she was white as snow.  It's integral to her character.  I would have the same objection if Disney made the boneheaded decision to recast Black Panther with a non-black actor.  It's both silly and disingenuous to the character.  For them to turn Snow White into a girl boss because attitudes have changed since 1938 is similarly peculiar since the movie isn't set in the present day.  It's weird to tell a story set well before the industrial era with a modernist view.  It's a timeless fairy tale, not a representation of today.

Other early criticism was directed at the horrible animation used for the dwarfs, as seen in the trailers.  The same can be said for the set design and other visuals.  The flat, bland style fits with neither the animated original nor the darker themes of the Grimm story.  It looks dull and unimaginative, as soulless as most of these other remakes.

That doesn't mean they couldn't remake the story with Zegler as the main character, just base it on the story and give a different title and setting.  Consider O Brother, Where Art Thou?, as an example.  It wasn't criticized for casting non-Greek actors, or changing the story, because it was only used as a loose basis to tell something else.  Bring the bones of the Snow White story into the modern era and incorporate technology in the place of magic, and we could have an interesting story.

There was an incredible cost to making this movie, and ticket presales are said to be low.  It will be interesting to see if the predicted losses cause Disney to rethink these endless remakes.  Personally, I'd rather see them use their resources to produce original programming and let the animated classics be restored and untouched. 

[Barry]

Very intersting, but I MUST address one point (more later):

I took out my 4k disc of Snow white and she is as pink as pink can be.  She is not white in the original movie.

Rachel Zegler was born in New Jersey, her parents were Columbian and Polish.  I am sorry if that is not white enough for you, but it is white enough for me.  What nationality should she have been?  That's a serious question.  Do you know of an actress that is whiter? 

[bmoney]

The woke cancel culture is absurd and annoying. I really dislike the times we live in 

[SRW1000]

Very intersting, but I MUST address one point (more later):

I took out my 4k disc of Snow white and she is as pink as pink can be.  She is not white in the original movie.

Rachel Zegler was born in New Jersey, her parents were Columbian and Polish.  I am sorry if that is not white enough for you, but it is white enough for me.  What nationality should she have been?  That's a serious question.  Do you know of an actress that is whiter? 

I pulled my copy as well, and you're correct.  Snow White is not an albino in the movie.  But she isn't in the original story either, as she has hair as black as coal and lips as red as blood (roses in the 1937 version).  It's used figuratively, as she is paler than the others in the movie, and it's one of the three distinctive characteristics spoken by the queen's mirror - an important plot point.  Granted, there is some variation in color from scene to scene to scene, making it hard to give a definitive comparison.  But check out her arms compared to the overall tone of the hunter, dwarfs, and prince.  She's noticeably lighter in tone.

The exception may be the evil queen.  It's hard to say for sure because they don't appear on screen at the same time other than when she's in her witch form.  (At that point she has an unnatural grayish/purplish pallor.)  If they are the same skin tone, I'm going to suggest that it was intentional, emphasizing the blinding nature of pointless, overriding jealousy.

I don't think that nationality or geography should come into play at all.  Afterall, Sharlto Copley is from Africa, but he would not be a fit for Black Panther.  Similarly, I grew up in a very German community.  One of my childhood friends and his siblings were of German stock, and they all had dark skin tones.  I would say none of his sisters would have been a good fit for Snow White, either, despite their ethnic origins.

As far as actresses that are whiter, this can be hard to compile since makeup, tanning, and lighting can have an outsized impact on natural appearance.  But how about Nicole Kidman, Cate Blanchett, Amy Adams, Alice Eve, Christina Hendricks, Emma Stone. Anya Taylor-Joy, Jessica Chastain, Kristen Stewart, and Tilda Swinton?  They're all a bit on the older side to play Snow White, so for younger stars there's Nikki Roumel, Willow Shields, Alyssa Trask, and Elle Fanning.

But the more telling issue is that Zegler doesn't appear to be white enough for Disney either.  Her character is now named Snow White because she was born in a snowstorm.

So, knowing that she wasn't chosen on the basis of fitting the character, one has to wonder why they selected her.  She has a marvelous singing voice, but that could have been solved by dubbing or autotune.  The other option would have been to use makeup or special effects to lighten her appearance.  I haven't seen the movie, but it looks like this was done with Ariana Grande in Wicked.

I wonder if Disney would do it all over again, after seeing all of the controversial and divisive comments that she's made since this movie began production.

It can certainly be argued that Disney's original movie made changes to the Grimm Brothers' tale, which is absolutely true.  And this newest version is just making changes from the animated film.  But when creating this new movie they had the choice of changing it to be closer to the original or further from the original.  They've clearly chosen the latter.  But, just like making a photocopy of a photocopy, at some point you get so far away from the initial story that it becomes a warped distortion.  If you want to update the character to modern times, that's fine.  Call it something else and make something new using today's times or a different place.  Kurosawa did this with Ran.  West Side Story is another example (also remade).  Richard III is another one.  And those are just from Shakespeare.

That, along with the other negative things I mentioned earlier, is why I think it's worthy of early criticism and, yes, even ridicule.

I don't think we'll ever agree on this one, Barry.  But thank you for having a reasonable discussion about it.  At least we're on the same page in hoping that we see more original stuff out of Hollywood instead of tired retreads.  (One of the ways we get there faster, is if incredibly expensive ventures like this one fail to find an audience.)

[Barry]

It’s a shame that we can’t sit down together, stream the movie when it comes out on Disney+ (I ain't paying for it)  and discuss this!

Why did you not want Ziegler to be in the movie?  I saw her in West Side Story and she was wonderful.  Did you see it?  Why even suggest, “Nikki Roumel, Willow Shields, Alyssa Trask, and Elle Fanning.”  Why do you think Ziegler was not appropriate?  As you said, makeup would make her as white as necessary.

But it is the acting that counts.

In the Wizard of Oz, Dorothy is 12 years old and, according to the Author Baum, she was “as tall as a Munchkin.” Of course, this means Judy Garland should nit have been cast in the role.  But this is one of the greatest movies of all time and she was perfect.

Who do you like as James Bond, neither Sean Connery or Daniel Craig look like him. Fleming says he looked like Hoagy Carmichael.  Size, looks and color don’t matter, performances do.

Without seeing the movie, I cannot criticize her or it and don’t think she is a bad choice, why do you?  (Actually, I would have loved to have seen a YOUNG Amy Adams here).

Other than casting, I actually agree with many of other points.  You wrote,  “But when creating this new movie they had the choice of changing it to be closer to the original or further from the original.  They've clearly chosen the latter.” There was no need to remake this movbie, a classic.  I love the original and got it in 4K, as did you.

This decade, Disney, for me, has made mostly bad movies, and this includes their live action remakes.  But Pinocchio was REALLY bad, as was Lightyear, Black Widow, Eternals. Thor: Love and Thunder, Black Panther: Wakanda Forever, Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantomania, Disenchanted, and the Marvels.

There is a greats statement about the movie in today's NY Times:

" In an essay pegged to Disney’s unhappy 2019 live-action version of “Aladdin,” the critic Aisha Harris wrote in The New York Times that “shoehorned-in progressive messages only call more attention to the inherent crassness of Disney’s current exercise in money-grabbing nostalgia.” That was true then and it remains the case with “Snow White,” which is neither good enough to admire nor bad enough to joyfully skewer; its mediocrity is among its biggest bummers.

[David Vaughn]

The Rotten Tomato scores reflect that...a middling score in the low 50s from critics. I'm curious to see how it does at the box office, particularly this opening weekend. I won't bother watching the film...I'm one of the few that doesn't particularly care for the 1939 version, which I call "Snore White," since I can never seem to get through it without turning into one of my favorite dwarfs, Sleepy

[Barry]

The Rotten Tomato scores reflect that...a middling score in the low 50s from critics. I'm curious to see how it does at the box office, particularly this opening weekend. I won't bother watching the film...I'm one of the few that doesn't particularly care for the 1939 version, which I call "Snore White," since I can never seem to get through it without turning into one of my favorite dwarfs, Sleepy

David, I had no intention of seeing this movie.  But, after all this, I'll see it on a very rainy night when it streams.

I did enjoy the animated film.  And I liked Bambi and Pinocchio.  Fantasia was thee first movie I ever saw and I then fell in love with movies, animation and music. Disney have re-animated everyhting, it's a shame they can't do that to Walt.

[bmoney]

The Rotten Tomato scores reflect that...a middling score in the low 50s from critics. I'm curious to see how it does at the box office, particularly this opening weekend. I won't bother watching the film...I'm one of the few that doesn't particularly care for the 1939 version, which I call "Snore White," since I can never seem to get through it without turning into one of my favorite dwarfs, Sleepy

Same. I think it’s only revered due to its technology breakthrough for the time 

[SRW1000]

It’s a shame that we can’t sit down together, stream the movie when it comes out on Disney+ (I ain't paying for it)  and discuss this!

Why did you not want Ziegler to be in the movie?  I saw her in West Side Story and she was wonderful.  Did you see it?  Why even suggest, “Nikki Roumel, Willow Shields, Alyssa Trask, and Elle Fanning.”  Why do you think Ziegler was not appropriate?  As you said, makeup would make her as white as necessary.

But it is the acting that counts.

In the Wizard of Oz, Dorothy is 12 years old and, according to the Author Baum, she was “as tall as a Munchkin.” Of course, this means Judy Garland should nit have been cast in the role.  But this is one of the greatest movies of all time and she was perfect.

Who do you like as James Bond, neither Sean Connery or Daniel Craig look like him. Fleming says he looked like Hoagy Carmichael.  Size, looks and color don’t matter, performances do.

Without seeing the movie, I cannot criticize her or it and don’t think she is a bad choice, why do you?  (Actually, I would have loved to have seen a YOUNG Amy Adams here).

Other than casting, I actually agree with many of other points.  You wrote,  “But when creating this new movie they had the choice of changing it to be closer to the original or further from the original.  They've clearly chosen the latter.” There was no need to remake this movbie, a classic.  I love the original and got it in 4K, as did you.

This decade, Disney, for me, has made mostly bad movies, and this includes their live action remakes.  But Pinocchio was REALLY bad, as was Lightyear, Black Widow, Eternals. Thor: Love and Thunder, Black Panther: Wakanda Forever, Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantomania, Disenchanted, and the Marvels.

There is a greats statement about the movie in today's NY Times:

" In an essay pegged to Disney’s unhappy 2019 live-action version of “Aladdin,” the critic Aisha Harris wrote in The New York Times that “shoehorned-in progressive messages only call more attention to the inherent crassness of Disney’s current exercise in money-grabbing nostalgia.” That was true then and it remains the case with “Snow White,” which is neither good enough to admire nor bad enough to joyfully skewer; its mediocrity is among its biggest bummers.

I'd love to watch and discuss a movie with you someday, let me know if you're ever happen to be in southeastern Wisconsin.

Let me start by saying that I don't hold any personal animus toward Rachel Zegler.  While she's made comments that I don't agree with, she seems to be a talented actress with a spectacular singing voice and a certain degree of charm.  I didn't see West Side Story, primarily because it's a musical.  She played one of the main characters in The Hunger Games: The Ballad of Songbirds & Snakes, but I can't remember her for any reason, good or bad, which may be entirely the result of the script.

I found her casting to be odd one for Snow White and was defending the critics of.  I find myself agreeing with them for the reasons that I listed previously.  The list of other actresses was just meant to answer your question of who would be whiter.  There are plenty of other examples, just illustrating that there were other choices that could have been better physical fits for the character.  That they chose to change the origin of the character's name and not use makeup leads one to believe that it was an intentional decision to diverge for the classic portrayal.  This is further backed up by the list of other actresses I could find who were also considered for the part.

And that opens it up for criticism, which can sometimes prove to be beneficial.  Witness the change in Sonic the Hedgehog's look after its initial trailer was released.  Viewers savaged it.  The studio listened to the voices of the audience and changed it, and it ended up being a box office success.  Some of those same people commented about how bad this movie's previews looked, not just for Zegler, but also for the dwarfs and other CGI.  Even after the rumored extensive reshoots, they skipped the chance to make any improvements.  We'll have to see if it is a financial success or failure.

Regarding casting in general, I would prefer that movies more accurately reflected their source material.  This is somewhat aligned with what I had written in your previous post: Reality in movies: Fact or Fiction - Movie reviews - AVS Discussions.  So yes, I'd like to see the next James Bond look more like the way Fleming wrote him.  Another example would be the next Wolverine.  A ferocious guy under 5'6" would add an additional element to the character, setting him apart from the typically tall superhero.  It bugged me to no end that Sam Raimi contrived organic web-shooters for Spider-Man rather than having the ingenious Peter Parker craft his own.  And while works based on real stories will often change and add things to add to the story, these fictional works already are stories.  There's less of a need to add or change elements so I'm less forgiving in that respect.

As a side note, the less familiar people are with the original visions of the characters, the less likely it will bother them.  Hence the stronger criticism of Zegler, since so many people have either read the Grimms' tale or seen the original animated movie, it's more likely to feel off to them.  Take something that fewer people knew before the movies, like James Bond or Wolverine, and complaints will be rarer.

As to why I even care about this movie, I believe it to be the first movie I ever saw in a theater at about the age of three or four.  It made a huge impression.  Keep in mind there were no VHS tapes around at that time, so no endless repeats on TV like today's kids.  I remember listening to the record over and over and reading the original story.  There's no need to remake it in live action, especially if the intent is to warp the story, tarnishing it rather than polishing it. 

The line in your New York Times quote referring to the Aladdin sums up my feelings about much of this.  It's not about making a good movie, it's much more cynical.  The film's reported $240M budget could have funded multiple others with new ideas rather than poorly produced rehashes of the classics.  And even fresh faces, like Zegler's, could be given the chance to shine in their own roles rather than trying to supplant those that are regarded as iconic.

For those reasons, I have no issue with people criticizing the movie, even before it was released.  And I'm with you on how disappointing Disney releases from this decade have been.

[David Vaughn]

Ouch!

https://x.com/kangminjlee/status/1903136612206195093

[bmoney]

I can’t think of one of their live remakes where I was like. Woah that was so good 

[Barry]

Ouch!

https://x.com/kangminjlee/status/1903136612206195093

it is not doing that well at my theater, either. here is tomorrow’s seating

[David Vaughn]

it is not doing that well at my theater, either. here is tomorrow’s seating

Are those your seats Barry?

[Barry]

I do not believe that the owners are doing very well these last few years and that’s a problem because we don’t wanna see movies disappear from movie houses. Variety published an interesting article about Snow White that I think puts a lot of things in perspective.https://variety.com/2025/film/news/snow-white-death-threats-zegler-social-media-guru-1236347433/