HDR is abhorrent

[Chris_Stephens]

Because your DISPLAY isn’t capable

My proj does great with the S&M calibration disc. So the 10 bit depth was properly applied to my display luminosity space. So the standard failed because it can't do this.

[AVSCraig]

I don't want to be argumentative here, but I just watched the 4k/HDR Blu-ray of Annihilation, with a JVC NX7, Panamorph DCR Lens, madVR Envy, on a 160" diagonal scope screen.

It was a completely mesmerizing visual experience.  The movie was awesome, and the graphics during the credits at the end were 'out of this world'.  If this is an example of HDR being 'broken', then I guess my brain must be broken as well.

As the others have been saying, until you have seen HDR done 'right', you haven't seen what HDR can look like in your Theater.

Watched Deadpool 1 and 2  on 4k UHD Blu-ray with a friend - HDR looked excellent! 

[Chris_Stephens]

If it has been two years since you played with a Lumagen, then you have no idea what a Lumagen can do with HDR. But anybody that has used a Lumagen within the last year will tell you the HDR is very good with a Lumagen. A Lumagen is pretty much set and forget. Oppo's HDR tone mapping is not in the same universe as Lumagen.

Setting an Apple TV to HDR is improper setup for Apple TV. You set it to SDR and match source. Then when it plays an HDR source, it sends HDR and when it plays an SDR source, it sends SDR.

I understand the math involved. While there is a TON of math that can play with the bits in ways that are very pleasant to the visual system, its no substitute to a accurate reproduction of the original bits. I am not using the Oppo to remap. WHy would I do that ? I have found the Sony has some great math, so the Oppo is set to source direct. I agree that a Lumagen migt be fun to do that. BUT. You can't fully defeat the math in the projector, so if you use a external scaler you end up with cascading processing which has its own issues. Also the Oppo has a pretty good physical layer HDMI circuit and that combined with a crazy stable clock, linear power supply and caps in just the right spots on the HDMI output chip and careful analog work on the HDMI circuit the output of the Oppo is really great. Putting in a Lumagen will add a HDMI rcvr chip, decoding, math, encoding, tx chip. That is a lot right there. While I respect the Lumagen its not powered by a linear supply and a low phase noise clock for the HDMI output. The physical layer of HDMI is treacherous and its almost analog in nature. But that is another conversation. Adding a device in-line WILL degrade the picture.

You DEAD ON with the AppleTV settings. BUT again if the HDR standard including proper certification then a device would work with the settings your describing. There is a issue with matching source on the AppleTV. I have not tried it on the new one from last week, but, generally true of all hardware. Switching formats on the fly causes a number of weirdnesses. Loss of lock, recovery and in the case of AppleTV it could cause the AppleTV to get confuzed.

A Lumagen and work-a-rounds like source direct and setting Apple to SDR just proves my point. The HDR standard is abhorrent.

[Chris_Stephens]

I don't want to be argumentative here, but I just watched the 4k/HDR Blu-ray of Annihilation, with a JVC NX7, Panamorph DCR Lens, madVR Envy, on a 160" diagonal scope screen.

It was a completely mesmerizing visual experience.  The movie was awesome, and the graphics during the credits at the end were 'out of this world'.  If this is an example of HDR being 'broken', then I guess my brain must be broken as well.

As the others have been saying, until you have seen HDR done 'right', you haven't seen what HDR can look like in your Theater.

I have seen HDR done right. Its the most incredible picture I have ever seen.. The only place I have seen it look this good is Spears & Munsil UHD calibration disc. They do HDR correctly by rendering into the correct luminosity that you pick from the menu.

My point is that the HDR standard is so broken you need a Lumgen to fix it on most material. Some material is almost OK, but all of it has weird issues.

The way to do HDR correctly is to do it like S&M did, render more then one target each with a luminosity range for various normally encountered devices. I admit tho, I am not sure if the S&M disc is playing different files or sending metadata or both. If you have not watched the S&M Demo material then you dont know what HDR should look like.

[Chris_Stephens]

Also.. I am pissed over this HDR mess. So i am argumentative. Please excuse my being grouchy. Im just sick of cramming 4K60 4:4:4 10 bit RGB which is 15Gbps raw down a 30 Mbps streaming pipe with a 500 TIMES compression and a std like HDR which is trying to cram a 15 bit space into 10 and is just created to sell devices and after years is still broken with people needing to buy new gear to get HDR10+/DV..

Its the emperors new clothes.

So, hahahaha,,, just please excuse me,, im grumpy...

[Chris_Stephens]

Buy this... Watch the demo material after choosing your luminosity and then judge your other HDR material..

Plus everybody should own this anyway.

https://www.amazon.com/Spears-Munsil-Benchmark-Blu-ray-Disc/dp/B07Q2KBDKV/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=spears+and+munsil&qid=1621831799&sr=8-1

[DLCPhoto]

I have seen HDR done right. Its the most incredible picture I have ever seen.. The only place I have seen it look this good is Spears & Munsil UHD calibration disc. They do HDR correctly by rendering into the correct luminosity that you pick from the menu.

My point is that the HDR standard is so broken you need a Lumgen to fix it on most material. Some material is almost OK, but all of it has weird issues.

The way to do HDR correctly is to do it like S&M did, render more then one target each with a luminosity range for various normally encountered devices. I admit tho, I am not sure if the S&M disc is playing different files or sending metadata or both. If you have not watched the S&M Demo material then you dont know what HDR should look like.

I highlighted part of your statement in Bold for emphasis.  I don't disagree, and in fact I'd take it one step further: there is no HDR standard.  Mastering can be done to 1,000 nits to 10,000 nits, and grading can vary substantially from one movie to another.

I can't speak to the Lumagen, since I don't own one, but I'm sure it has a similar approach to what the Envy uses.  With the Envy, you tell it how many Nits you have available, and it then does a frame-by-frame analysis, Dynamically Tone Mapping for your particular theater and Nits in an optimal fashion.  And it does provide some options to further tweak this process to account for subtleties in your theater, preference, etc.

As long as the content has a wider Dynamic Range than what is available on the Display, then Tone Mapping will need to be done to render it.  This can be done well, this can be done poorly.  Sony, from what I've read, does it relatively poorly, and requires a lot of manual tweaking.  JVC's most recent generation of DTM does a pretty good job.  But it can be come up short with some content.

It is perhaps unfortunate that an Envy or Lumagen is needed to do DTM "right" but that's just the nature of the beast.  Doing it right requires more computational power than is typically available in a Projector, Player, etc.  But with one of these, it's a completely different world for HDR.

That's a big reason why I got the Envy - I no longer have to worry about how a particular movie was mastered.  I don't have to manually tweak settings.  The Envy handles it all, and everything looks awesome.  I just sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.

[bmoney]

^^ exactly an outboard dedicated VP was always the preferred meathod,  and still is!  nothing is broken...just nothing is set to utilize the format properly.  the S&M disc cannot be used in comparison.  its not real world content.

[AVSCraig]

Also.. I am pissed over this HDR mess. So i am argumentative. Please excuse my being grouchy. Im just sick of cramming 4K60 4:4:4 10 bit RGB which is 15Gbps raw down a 30 Mbps streaming pipe with a 500 TIMES compression and a std like HDR which is trying to cram a 15 bit space into 10 and is just created to sell devices and after years is still broken with people needing to buy new gear to get HDR10+/DV..

Its the emperors new clothes.

So, hahahaha,,, just please excuse me,, im grumpy...

I was a bit miffed regarding the poor implementation of HDR. So I get what you are saying. But many of us have found solutions that are more than adequate. So there are solutions.  

[alangouger]

"Chris Stephens" nice to see you, been years hope you're doing well.

I have always had complaints about consumer content, they treat us like "Joe 6pack" thinking they don't have to go out of their way to deliver quality content thinking it looks good enough on a 50" display.
The best content for consumers is UHD HDR 4k blue ray yet its all over the map. Of the few hundred titles available there are only 4 or 5 discs that come close to reference the rest have gamma, color saturation, and hue issues and they are still applying NR and EE at times on some titles and scenes, let alone the watered-down HDR.
If there is a standard it is not enforced, each studio does as they please on a per titles basis. Unlike the DCP for commercial cinemas where the standard is strictly followed, you can watch 10 titles and never have to make any correction or adjustment to the projector. It almost makes no sense to purchase a high-end display when the content is crap. With that said, I am in sales, who wants to buy something high end:)

[AVSMike]

I understand the math involved. While there is a TON of math that can play with the bits in ways that are very pleasant to the visual system, its no substitute to a accurate reproduction of the original bits. I am not using the Oppo to remap. WHy would I do that ? I have found the Sony has some great math, so the Oppo is set to source direct. I agree that a Lumagen migt be fun to do that. BUT. You can't fully defeat the math in the projector, so if you use a external scaler you end up with cascading processing which has its own issues. Also the Oppo has a pretty good physical layer HDMI circuit and that combined with a crazy stable clock, linear power supply and caps in just the right spots on the HDMI output chip and careful analog work on the HDMI circuit the output of the Oppo is really great. Putting in a Lumagen will add a HDMI rcvr chip, decoding, math, encoding, tx chip. That is a lot right there. While I respect the Lumagen its not powered by a linear supply and a low phase noise clock for the HDMI output. The physical layer of HDMI is treacherous and its almost analog in nature. But that is another conversation. Adding a device in-line WILL degrade the picture.

You DEAD ON with the AppleTV settings. BUT again if the HDR standard including proper certification then a device would work with the settings your describing. There is a issue with matching source on the AppleTV. I have not tried it on the new one from last week, but, generally true of all hardware. Switching formats on the fly causes a number of weirdnesses. Loss of lock, recovery and in the case of AppleTV it could cause the AppleTV to get confuzed.

A Lumagen and work-a-rounds like source direct and setting Apple to SDR just proves my point. The HDR standard is abhorrent.

You are still lost on all of this. The Lumagen if set up correctly, is not cascading the processing (double tone mapping). The HDR signal is sent to the Lumagen and the Lumagen does the HDR processing. The projector sees it as SDR, so it does not apply any HDR tone mapping. After all the money you have spent on your projector, spend a little more and get the Lumagen and someone like Kris Deering to set it up properly. Then you will see what all of us are talking about. And to head off something that many people say: no the Lumagen is not converting HDR to SDR. It is only mapping the content to the projectors ability.

[AVSMike]

I have seen HDR done right. Its the most incredible picture I have ever seen.. The only place I have seen it look this good is Spears & Munsil UHD calibration disc. They do HDR correctly by rendering into the correct luminosity that you pick from the menu.

My point is that the HDR standard is so broken you need a Lumgen to fix it on most material. Some material is almost OK, but all of it has weird issues.

The way to do HDR correctly is to do it like S&M did, render more then one target each with a luminosity range for various normally encountered devices. I admit tho, I am not sure if the S&M disc is playing different files or sending metadata or both. If you have not watched the S&M Demo material then you dont know what HDR should look like.

To do a good job with HDR on a projector, you need dynamic tone mapping. Currently there are three ways to get dynamic tone mapping for all content. One is Lumagen. Two is MadVR Envy and three is to buy a JVC RS1000/RS2000 or RS3000. Since you have a good projector, you just need to get the Lumagen or MadVR Envy.

[AVSMike]

Buy this... Watch the demo material after choosing your luminosity and then judge your other HDR material..

Plus everybody should own this anyway.

https://www.amazon.com/Spears-Munsil-Benchmark-Blu-ray-Disc/dp/B07Q2KBDKV/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=spears+and+munsil&qid=1621831799&sr=8-1

Have seen that already on my RS3000 with Lumagen. Probably everybody in this thread has seen it or own it.

[Chris_Stephens]

^^ exactly an outboard dedicated VP was always the preferred meathod,  and still is!  nothing is broken...just nothing is set to utilize the format properly.  the S&M disc cannot be used in comparison.  its not real world content.

How is it not real world content ? Oh, you mean from real consumer devices from real sources like AppleTV. True... BUT it does show VERY clearly what HDR can look like when its all done correctly. So it IS worth looking at just to know what 100 Mbps HDR *should* look like.

[Chris_Stephens]

I was a bit miffed regarding the poor implementation of HDR. So I get what you are saying. But many of us have found solutions that are more than adequate. So there are solutions. 

The solutions require some fairly big bucks ( the best Lumagen is $10k ) AND involve some sacrfices. For example, the correct way to setup a AppleTV 4k HDR is to set it for 4K SDR and then enable source direct for DR and frame rate. This is of course best, but, each time to change from menu to material there will be a resyncing which on most displays takes some seconds to land. This is more annoying then it sounds. The AppleTV needs to be set like this so a Lumagen, or display device can get the best source.

The comment above is correct.. There is no HDR standard and people just crank out many different flavors based on what a DP graded the material on. This of course never matches the display.

There are ways to make it look better. But. Ultimately its a failed standard.