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madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread

madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread
« on: June 13, 2020, 08:56:45 PM »
Hi everyone,

This thread is for discussing the new and upcoming madVR Envy Video Processor.

There are a number of these out in the field now, with beta testers, as well as early adopters.

I myself have a madVR Envy Extreme.

We have been carrying out some direct A-B comparisons between the madVR Envy Extreme and a madVR HTPC, as well as the Lumagen PRO, with some surprising results.

The biggest surprise is the fact that an HTPC using the free madVR software currently significantly outperforms the madVR Envy Extreme with respect to video performance.

Furthermore, it's not just me. I know of at least THREE other people who have independently arrived at exactly the same conclusions.

A variety of appropriately selected content has been used. Projectors include the likes of JVC RS4500/Z1, JVC RS3000/NX9 and RGB Laser Projector. Source devices include the flagship $2,449 Pioneer UDP-LX800, OPPO 205, OPPO 203, and Kaleidescape Strato, all set to the optimum settings.

It has been discussed over on AVSForum the fact that the difference in video performance is in part due to the fact that the native pure 24p 4:2:0 video signal cannot be passed directly via HDMI and due to the limitations of HDMI this has to be upscaled to 4:2:2 such that it can be outputted to the madVR Envy and that this process reduces the video image quality.

However, this in itself does not explain the magnitude of the comparative difference in video performance that we (and others) are observing.

It has also come to light and has been previously discussed openly on AVSForum that within the madVR Envy Extreme, despite the name this does not contain the best, most powerful Nvidia GPU as of right now, namely the RTX TITAN. It does not contain the lesser model below this either, namely the RTX 2080ti. It contains a model below this.

Furthermore, there are potentially other factors at play here as well, including additonal items such as HDMI cables, and an HDMI input video capture card, which do not feature within a madVR HPTC.

Hence, there are a number of contributing factors the summation of which results in the video performance of an HTPC with the free madVR software being significantly superior as compared with a madVR Envy Extreme.

Is there anyone else who has experienced the same thing?

What does everyone think about this? :-\

I should add that I genuinely wish for the madVR Envy to succeed, however this difference is being referred to as being "insignificant" by a certain someone over on AVSForum, and I cannot fathom why. I personally has tremendous respect for this person, they are one of the most knowledgeable people that I know regarding A/V. However, as a consequence the validity of this particular point is being viewed with a lesser importance than it should be.

Personally, my ONLY motivation here is to achieve the absolute ultimate in AV performance. And this is the goal of our customers as well.

I personally have been extremely supportive of the madVR Envy and initially posted overwhelmingly positive first impressions, and as per usual I am completely impartial and unbiased here. At the present time we have decided not to jump on board and sell the product due to work still needing to be done, however, if or when the product development progresses in a positive direction, and the business side of things solidifies, then we may very well do so.

The fact of the matter is that we should all be able to discuss both the positives and negatives of A/V products in a relaxed manner. And IMO these sorts of discussions are important, especially when there appears to be a difference of opinions with respect to a very small amount of data points as of right now.

So has anyone else also carried out A-B comparisons between an HTPC using the free madVR software and the madVR Envy? If so, what is your feedback regarding the comparative video performance?



« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 11:56:10 AM by ARROW-AV »

Re: madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2020, 12:49:26 AM »
I myself have had the opportunity to do direct comparisons of the madVR Envy and a well setup High-End HTPC.
The results in respect to the Envy unit are not at all flattering considering its projected retail pricetag.
Basically it boils down to the HTPC having considerably better video performance than the Envy Extreme. those who have viewed the comparisons between the HTPC and the Envy Extreme conclusivley agreed .

Just a note here though.....the above observations are purely in reference to outright image quality. 


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Re: madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2020, 08:54:39 AM »
I myself have had the opportunity to do direct comparisons of the madVR Envy and a well setup High-End HTPC.
The results in respect to the Envy unit are not at all flattering considering its projected retail pricetag.
Basically it boils down to the HTPC having considerably better video performance than the Envy Extreme. those who have viewed the comparisons between the HTPC and the Envy Extreme conclusivley agreed .

Just a note here though.....the above observations are purely in reference to outright image quality.

Ease of use probably doesn't go to the HTPC I imagine. 
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Re: madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2020, 08:58:19 AM »
Hi everyone,

This thread is for discussing the new and upcoming madVR Envy Video Processor.

There are a number of these out in the field now, with beta testers, as well as early adopters.

I myself have a madVR Envy Extreme.

We have been carrying out some direct A-B comparisons between the madVR Envy Extreme and a madVR HTPC, as well as the Lumagen PRO, with some surprising results.

The biggest surprise is the fact that an HTPC using the free madVR software currently significantly outperforms the madVR Envy Extreme with respect to video performance.

Furthermore, it's not just me. I know of at least THREE other people who have independently arrived at exactly the same conclusions.

A variety of appropriately selected content has been used. Projectors include the likes of JVC RS4500/Z1, JVC RS3000/NX9 and RGB Laser Projector. Source devices include the flagship $2,449 Pioneer UDP-LX800, OPPO 205, OPPO 203, and Kaleidescape Strato, all set to the optimum settings.

It has been discussed over on AVSForum the fact that the difference in video performance is in part due to the fact that the native pure 24p 4:2:0 video signal cannot be passed directly via HDMI and due to the limitations of HDMI this has to be upscaled to 4:2:2 such that it can be outputted to the madVR Envy and that this process reduces the video image quality.

However, this in itself does not explain the magnitude of the comparative difference in video performance that we (and others) are observing.

It has also come to light that within the madVR Envy Extreme, despite the name this does not contain the best, most powerful Nvidia GPU as of right now, namely the RTX TITAN. It does not contain the lesser model below this either, namely the RTX 2080ti. It contains a model below this.

Furthermore, there are potentially other factors at play here as well, including additonal items such as HDMI cables, and an HDMI input video capture card, which do not feature within a madVR HPTC.

Hence, there are a number of contributing factors the summation of which results in the video performance of an HTPC with the free madVR software being significantly superior as compared with a madVR Envy Extreme.

Is there anyone else who has experienced the same thing?

What does everyone think about this? :-\

I should add that I genuinely wish for the madVR Envy to succeed, however this difference is being referred to as being "insignificant" by a certain someone over on AVSForum, and I cannot fathom why. I personally has tremendous respect for this person, they are one of the most knowledgeable people that I know regarding A/V. However, as a consequence the validity of this particular point is being viewed with a lesser importance than it should be.

Personally, my ONLY motivation here is to achieve the absolute ultimate in AV performance. And this is the goal of our customers as well.

I personally have been extremely supportive of the madVR Envy and initially posted overwhelmingly positive first impressions, and as per usual I am completely impartial and unbiased here. At the present time we have decided not to jump on board and sell the product due to work still needing to be done, however, if or when the product development progresses in a positive direction then we may very well do so.

The fact of the matter is that we should all be able to discuss both the positives and negatives of A/V products in a relaxed manner. And IMO these sorts of discussions are important, especially when there appears to be a difference of opinions with respect to a very small amount of data points as of right now.

So has anyone else also carried out A-B comparisons between an HTPC using the free software and the madVR Envy? If so, what is your feedback regarding the comparative video performance?

I don't game, but when I go to websites where you can buy custom high end gaming computers built to order, usually they spell out the parts and you have the option to upgrade the GPU, graphic cards etc. ( for more money ). I'm not sure why they aren't doing that with the Envy. Or considering the price, use the best at the time it's built as a running change. 
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Re: madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2020, 11:42:50 AM »
I posted this and much along the same lines over on the other forum, so I will repost it here...



madVR HTPC has the advantage of producing the best video performance, but with the disadvantage of being more complex to setup and use than a madVR Envy, and can't be used with streaming sources. To be perfectly honest I find it to be a colossal pain in the arse to setup up and maintain, however, without a doubt it offers the best video performance and significantly so.



Whereas, the madVR Envy has the disadvantage of producing comparatively inferior video performance, however this is potentially offset by the advantage of being simpler and easier to setup and use, and the fact that, unlike the madVR HTPC, it be used with ALL sources.



I should add that when viewing madVR Envy by itself it looks great. It's simply that the madVR HTPC's video performance is better. And it is only when doing A-B comparisons versus a madVR HTPC that you can see the difference in video performance, which is not something that is going to be done very often!



This pretty much sums it up.
 

« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 11:49:11 AM by ARROW-AV »

Re: madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2020, 11:48:37 AM »
Ease of use probably doesn't go to the HTPC I imagine. 
Ease of use with respect to the HTPC is a nightmare. This is the HUGE positive with respect to the madVR Envy.

The problem is that we and our customers want the absolute ultimate in video performance, with all sources. So we want to have our cake and eat it too! ;) ::)


Re: madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2020, 06:46:21 PM »
After having MAdVR running on my HTPC since day one...yes, that long, I knew that the HTPC set a bar so high that it would be huge for the Envy to overcome. Not saying it cannot be done but as more people are seeing, the HTPC is about as perfect direct source player as you can get.

Tweaking the HTPC is not that hard to properly set up but it does take time....but not over $6k hard...lol

When the new RTX 3080ti come out in August, you will be able to build the most kick ass HTPC ever for about $2500-3000....saving about $3000-7000 from the Envy. For that much $$$ I can spend a few days tweaking the HTPC even though my current HTPC is already tweaked perfectly so a new version will not require more than a couple of hours work.

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Re: madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2020, 07:12:10 PM »
After having MAdVR running on my HTPC since day one...yes, that long, I knew that the HTPC set a bar so high that it would be huge for the Envy to overcome. Not saying it cannot be done but as more people are seeing, the HTPC is about as perfect direct source player as you can get.

Tweaking the HTPC is not that hard to properly set up but it does take time....but not over $6k hard...lol

When the new RTX 3080ti come out in August, you will be able to build the most kick ass HTPC ever for about $2500-3000....saving about $3000-7000 from the Envy. For that much $$$ I can spend a few days tweaking the HTPC even though my current HTPC is already tweaked perfectly so a new version will not require more than a couple of hours work.
The allure of the Envy is the HDMI input. 
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Re: madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2020, 07:18:30 PM »
After having MAdVR running on my HTPC since day one...yes, that long, I knew that the HTPC set a bar so high that it would be huge for the Envy to overcome. Not saying it cannot be done but as more people are seeing, the HTPC is about as perfect direct source player as you can get.

Tweaking the HTPC is not that hard to properly set up but it does take time....but not over $6k hard...lol

When the new RTX 3080ti come out in August, you will be able to build the most kick ass HTPC ever for about $2500-3000....saving about $4500-9500 from the Envy. For that much $$$ I can spend a few days tweaking the HTPC even though my current HTPC is already tweaked perfectly so a new version will not require more than a couple of hours work.
I just fixed that for you ;)




Re: madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2020, 07:21:18 PM »
I just fixed that for you ;)
WOW!!!! that much difference?!?! I'm out then. No way I can spend that much on it.

Re: madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2020, 07:53:54 PM »
WOW!!!! that much difference?!?! I'm out then. No way I can spend that much on it.
And then add to this the fact that the video performance of madVR HTPCs is significantly superior...

Re: madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2020, 08:39:08 PM »
I've concluded that instead of a madVR Video Processor which will always have the disadvantage versus a madVR HTPC for the aforementioned reasons, what they should have developed is a 'madVR Media Player' being akin to the madVR Envy but whilst also being the source device itself, as per a madVR HTPC, but which supports all disc formats as well as all streaming APPs including Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, Youtube etc...

This would yield the same identical superior video performance as a madVR HTPC but with all of the advantages of the madVR Envy. Hence the best of both worlds.

Such a product would have been unique and would not have had such direct competition from the likes of the Lumagen PRO.



« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 01:25:42 AM by ARROW-AV »

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Re: madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2020, 07:27:57 AM »
I've concluded that instead of a madVR Video Processor which will always have the disadvantage versus a madVR HTPC for the aforementioned reasons, what they should have developed is a 'madVR Media Player' being akin to the madVR Envy but whilst also being the source device itself, as per a madVR HTPC, but which supports all disc formats as well as all streaming APPs including Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, Youtube etc...

This would yield the same identical superior video performance as a madVR HTPC but with all of the advantages of the madVR Envy. Hence the best of both worlds.

Such a product would have been unique and would not have had such direct competition from the likes of the Lumagen PRO.
I'd guess that a device like that would take considerable resources to develop and market though. 
Direct (585) 671-2972 8:00am - 4:30pm Pacific 
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We carry projectors, screens, speakers, receivers etc. !!
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Re: madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2020, 07:56:59 AM »
I've concluded that instead of a madVR Video Processor which will always have the disadvantage versus a madVR HTPC for the aforementioned reasons, what they should have developed is a 'madVR Media Player' being akin to the madVR Envy but whilst also being the source device itself, as per a madVR HTPC, but which supports all disc formats as well as all streaming APPs including Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, Youtube etc...

This would yield the same identical superior video performance as a madVR HTPC but with all of the advantages of the madVR Envy. Hence the best of both worlds.

Such a product would have been unique and would not have had such direct competition from the likes of the Lumagen PRO.

Hate being the Debbie-downer in the group but a media player with all those streaming services will never ever happen on ONE app. And the reason is as simple as DRM.

If you think having an HDCP license (like the one the Envy had to get) was tough, imagine having to deal with four or more completely different DRM schemes that are required for each of those services. Each of them wants to have their own method and NONE of them are anywhere close to be similar to others. There is no unified DRM scheme and that's just for the software...the hardware DRM requirements are 1000X worse. That's why most smaller media players have not even tried. And the big players like Nvidia have such a hard time that they just rely on each service's apps to avoid having to deal with hardware limitations.
 
To quote a very good analogy... "Copy Protection: A clever method of preventing incompetent pirates from copying & legitimate owners from using."

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Re: madVR ENVY | Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2020, 08:12:27 AM »
I've concluded that instead of a madVR Video Processor which will always have the disadvantage versus a madVR HTPC for the aforementioned reasons, what they should have developed is a 'madVR Media Player' being akin to the madVR Envy but whilst also being the source device itself, as per a madVR HTPC, but which supports all disc formats as well as all streaming APPs including Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, Youtube etc...

This would yield the same identical superior video performance as a madVR HTPC but with all of the advantages of the madVR Envy. Hence the best of both worlds.

Such a product would have been unique and would not have had such direct competition from the likes of the Lumagen PRO.
It is the streaming service companies that build the Apps that are installed to players.   The player manufacturers have to convince the streaming provider to build one for their platform.
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