Apple TV 4K vs Amazon Fire TV Cube Gen2 vs nVidia Shield TV 2019 vs Roku Ultra

[madshi]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

I guess I was thinking of evaluating these source devices as a potential media player for *all* contents, including UHD HDR Blu-Rays etc. For that purpose of course careful image quality comparisons would be needed. But if it's "only" for streaming, you're right and things like chroma upscaling quality etc aren't really very important.

[Manni]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

I guess I was thinking of evaluating these source devices as a potential media player for *all* contents, including UHD HDR Blu-Rays etc. For that purpose of course careful image quality comparisons would be needed. But if it's "only" for streaming, you're right and things like chroma upscaling quality etc aren't really very important.

For UHD Bluray playback, the only contender among the four devices discussed here is the Shield as the others don't do lossless audio passthrough for Atmos / DTS:X. Unless you don't care about immersive audio of course.

The Shield is a decent streamer, it has a very good upscaling with AI upscaling, and as long as you get the Pro it would probably be your favorite device as a developer. It's a very good do-it-all in one inexpensive box.

It's not as good as a dedicated player such as the Oppo 203 (Clone or jailbroken) for local/network 1:1 rips, mainly because it doesn't have source direct for lower res content, but the little I've seen it seems very decent.

I've asked Ric to check on the Zapitti Pro as it has the same chipset as the Dune HD 4K Pro, which has banding and frame rate issues. If it doesn't, it could be an alternative, but frankly (as you should know!) from a PQ point of view nothing beats a HTPC with madVR to play bluray / UHD bluray . I've sent Ric all the info, I think if you're interested in a mediaplayer rather than a streamer or a do-it-all there are better options than the above.

[Manni]

I've done more testing on the Apple TV 4K and it looks like the HDR10 Metadata it reports in Netflix when the display doesn't support DV is completely bogus.

Apparently, instead of selecting an HDR10 stream when DV isn't available, Apple converts the DV stream and "invents" static metadata, which at least in the example I looked at is bogus.

I selected Stranger Things Season 2 Episode 1 because I wanted to be also able to compare with the UHD Bluray, and there are very few titles that have both a UHD release and are on Netflix.

In that case, that didn't help because the UHD Bluray is a different master (1,000nits vs 4,000 nits).

However, I was able to compare the Shield TV 2019 and the Panasonic UB900 with the AppleTV metadata for that same title.

The Shield and the UB900 both agree and produce the same metadata: 4000/0.005nits max/min mastering brightness and  3739/832 MaxCLL/MaxFALL. These are reported both by the Envy and by the HD Fury Maestro (without the Envy in the chain).

When the ATV 4K plays the same episode, it reports:
4000/4.1248 (!) max/min mastering brightness and  927/127 MaxCLL/MaxFALL.

Also apparently for some titles the metadata keeps changing every 30 secs or so, which of course shouldn't happen with HDR10 static metadata.

So anyone relying on the HDR Metadata to select a custom curve or chose which DTM apply (as the JVC DTM does) will be thrown by the metadata reported by the ATV.

I didn't notice this when I had the ATV in house because I only tested it with the Envy, which doesn't rely on the HDR10 metadata to do its frame by frame dynamic tonemapping.

That's another big issue for the ATV, at least for those who don't have an external processor that doesn't rely on the HDR metadata to do some of its tonemapping.

I won't factor this in regarding my decision to get a new ATV when/if they fix the auto frame rate issue, but that's something to keep in mind.

The Shield has its own quicks, but it selects the HDR10 stream when the display doesn't support DV and sends the correct HDR10 metadata.

Also it selects the correct refresh rate automatically for Netflix and other compatible apps, and for Prime and other apps that don't support the 3rd party refresh rate app, you can set it to display the correct rate when you start playback, so you only have to stop playback, bring up a menu (one key) to select the correct rate, and re-start playback. Not as smooth as the ATV when it's able to select the correct rate, but far better when it isn't.

I attach some screenshots showing the HDR10 metadata for all these tests. The Shield, UB900 and HTPC show the HD Fury Maestro metadata as I was able to take these myself. As I'm still under NDA, I didn't want to post screenshots from the Envy, but trust me the HDR10 metadata reported by both is identical. To illustrate this, the HTPC also shows the madVR info as the screenshot was taken with the Envy out of the chain. I got the same results with the Envy sending HDR Passthrough from the HTPC.

The ATV screenshot was taken by LovingDVD (thanks Ric!) from his Envy as I don't have the ATV 4K in house anymore, but the Maestro would have reported the same, I double checked here with my Envy using my other sources, they always in agreement.

[AVSMike]

I remember Kris Deering and others posting about the Apple TV giving bogus info and changing info with DV. I had forgotten about that, until your post reminded me.

[claw]

Yes, Apple does not store separate DV and HDR10 source.  DV is converted to HDR10.  And sometimes the conversion results in metadata values that change.    Sony had to provide a firmware update to some of their projectors to deal with the changing metadata.

The variable metadata triggered the OSD from my HDfury device which was annoying.  And it would sometimes result in the JVC Macros being triggered and switching my HDR10 JVC user mode between the 1000 and 4000 nit custom curves. 

Now I configure the HDfury to get LLDV output from my ATV4K to my JVC RS500 instead of HDR10.  Better result in my opinion and no metadata issues.   Pretty much everything I watch from my ATV4K is available in Dolby Vision.

[Manni]

Yes, Apple does not store separate DV and HDR10 source.  DV is converted to HDR10.  And sometimes the conversion results in metadata values that change.    Sony had to provide a firmware update to some of their projectors to deal with the changing metadata.

The variable metadata triggered the OSD from my HDfury device which was annoying.  And it would sometimes result in the JVC Macros being triggered and switching my HDR10 JVC user mode between the 1000 and 4000 nit custom curves. 

Now I configure the HDfury to get LLDV output from my ATV4K to my JVC RS500 instead of HDR10.  Better result in my opinion and no metadata issues.  Pretty much everything I watch from my ATV4K is available in Dolby Vision.

Yes, as I said it's only an issue if you rely on the HDR10 metadata, which would be the case for example with the JVC Macro selecting a custom curve, as I mentioned. You aren't depending on this as you use LLDV with the Maestro, I'm not either because I don't need the metadata with the Envy. But it's a big drawback for the ATV for anyone who doesn't have an external solution like the Envy, or isn't technical enough to implement LLDV with an HD Fury device, so I wanted to point it out.

[Manni]

I actually missed something crucial on the Shield: 

The third party Refresh Rate app also allows the Shield to switch to the native resolution of the content, as long as you set the default to 4K (Netflix never plays a title to a higher resolution than the default). This makes the Shield the only streamer to offer a "source direct" mode, which is ideal when using an external VP such as the Envy or the Radiance Pro in order to make the most of the better upscaling offered by the external processor. 

Also, I was able to use the refresh rate app on the Shield to deal with Prime and other apps not compatible with the full auto mode that works with Netflix. I simply set it to display the refresh rate when the title start playing, stop the title bring, up a quick menu assigned to a button on the remote (I chose volume+) to select manually the correct refresh rate, and restart playback. It only takes a few secs and there is no guesswork involved as the refresh rate displayed by the app is correct most of the time.


This makes the Shield 2019 the only streamer with a Source Direct mode (dynamic range, resolution and frame rate), fully automatic in Netflix, semi-automatic in the apps incompatible with the fully auto mode, such as Prime.

This settles the score for anyone with a high-end external VP and makes it the only streamer to get if you can live without AppleTV+ (though apparently nVidia are talking to Apple about this, so it might be added in the future).

I've edited the first post and the comparison table to reflect this important information.

[simonk83]

I'm having a bit of a weird time with that Refresh Rate app. It sort of works, but it's not without its quirks.

If I have it automatically switch the frame rate, it seems to do that correctly, but then the video is horribly juttery, like it's the completely wrong frame rate. So that's out/

If I change it manually, that does work fine, but the JVC N7 first automatically switches to HDR (assuming it's a HDR video) as it normally would on the video start, but then once I change the refresh rate it causes the N7 to switch back to SDR mode, then immediately switch back to HDR mode again, which is annoying and frankly takes long enough that i have to pause the video (on a black screen) while it does its thing.

Also, if changing the resolution manually, there doesn't seem to be a way to have the app fall back to the original (default) frame rate when the video stop, so then Netflix (or whatever) runs like a dog as it's at 24p instead of 60 (for example).

All up I'm not sure it's worth it at the moment, but it'd be nice if Nvidia just had all this work automatically like Kodi seems to easily do.

All that said, I'm currently using an older Shield and have one of the new tubes (not the Pro) arriving today, so I'll give it a crack with that.

[Manni]

I'm having a bit of a weird time with that Refresh Rate app. It sort of works, but it's not without its quirks.

If I have it automatically switch the frame rate, it seems to do that correctly, but then the video is horribly juttery, like it's the completely wrong frame rate. So that's out/

If I change it manually, that does work fine, but the JVC N7 first automatically switches to HDR (assuming it's a HDR video) as it normally would on the video start, but then once I change the refresh rate it causes the N7 to switch back to SDR mode, then immediately switch back to HDR mode again, which is annoying and frankly takes long enough that i have to pause the video (on a black screen) while it does its thing.

Also, if changing the resolution manually, there doesn't seem to be a way to have the app fall back to the original (default) frame rate when the video stop, so then Netflix (or whatever) runs like a dog as it's at 24p instead of 60 (for example).

All up I'm not sure it's worth it at the moment, but it'd be nice if Nvidia just had all this work automatically like Kodi seems to easily do.

All that said, I'm currently using an older Shield and have one of the new tubes (not the Pro) arriving today, so I'll give it a crack with that.

Not the way it works here at all.
Do you have a Shield 2019? Which OS version?

[simonk83]

Not the way it works here at all.
Do you have a Shield 2019? Which OS version?

I don't (not yet, got one arriving today), it's a 2017 but I assumed it would work the same?  All good, I'll hook up the new one tonight and give it another go

[Manni]

I don't (not yet, got one arriving today), it's a 2017 but I assumed it would work the same?  All good, I'll hook up the new one tonight and give it another go

I haven’t tested the 2017, only the 2015 (which was very bad, at least initially) and the 2019. Please let us know if the 2019 doesn’t behave better. At least with Netflix, the refresh rate app works perfectly here, fully automatic, both for resolution and refresh rate.

[simonk83]

I haven’t tested the 2017, only the 2015 (which was very bad, at least initially) and the 2019. Please let us know if the 2019 doesn’t behave better. At least with Netflix, the refresh rate app works perfectly here, fully automatic, both for resolution and refresh rate.

Ok, it finally showed up (delivery delays obviously). 

It does now switch properly without any of the weird frame stutter so that’s great. The only quirk now is that when I go back to the Netflix main menu, the N7 still does the weird HDR switching dance (it turns HDR off as it should, but then for some reason turns it back on, like it thinks the Netflix menu should be in HDR (it shouldn’t). 

[Manni]

Great to hear that there is no issue with the refresh rate app on the 2019 Shield, that's what I experience here too.

I don't know about the JVC switching, I disabled it because it's too limited for my use, as I need SDR BT2020 and SDR rec-709 to be detected individually, not just "SDR". I use an HD Fury Maestro to select the correct calibration according to all content, and it's working flawlessly, including for 3D.

However, I am also using an Envy to tonemap HDR to SDR, so that might help as well, as I don't really use the Frame Adapt or HDR10 modes from the JVC. You might want to ask in the JVC thread how people deal with this, because I don't think it's specific to the Shield 2019.

[David Vaughn]

I have a Shield Pro that's on its way to me now. I should have it the middle of next week. Hopefully the stock IR codes in the URC software work and I don't have to hunt around the Internet for them. I have the USB IR dongle that will be here before the actual Shield even though I ordered the dongle two days after the Shield. It must me shipping via covered wagon

[mikiela]

I have a Shield Pro that's on its way to me now. I should have it the middle of next week. Hopefully the stock IR codes in the URC software work and I don't have to hunt around the Internet for them. I have the USB IR dongle that will be here before the actual Shield even though I ordered the dongle two days after the Shield. It must me shipping via covered wagon

I think you are going to like it!  I have had one for about a week now and am very pleased with it.  Unfortunately, Youtube won't do HDR on it but it will on my Roku Ultra.  Being able to get Atmos on Netflix is great.