2019 Sony 4K Projector Owners Thread

[Andreas21]

Most of Oblivion shows quite well the superior ANSI from the SONY, even in low level scenes,

What is the lightoutput on the Sony and JVC when you see the difference?

[AVSMike]

This is not about sharpness, its about reflections, light streaking, look at a JVC with the OPPO screen saver, it looks absolutely terrible, the vertical streaking, the reflection that lights up the screen in other places, the 295 dont suffer that, so im curious if its the lens or the light engine.Antireflective coating might make the optics less transparent, but as lightoutput and sharpness is not a issue i worry about on any of the 4K projectors, its surficiant on all of them for my need.
I clearly see the difference from a JVC with a 130:1 ansi contrast, to the sony with 350:1, its just much more clean contrasty look on all scenes, even fairly dark ones.

I did a experiment with different ND filters on the 295, and it generated a similar issue the JVC optics suffer from.

If i get a SONY lens and if its possible to mount it on a JVC it would be interesting to see the ansi contrast differences, ill also try work on those reflective surfaces in the lamp engine, and the JVC lamp asembly see if that makes a difference.

If im to replace my CRT with  500.000:1 on off contrast and 100:1 ansi contrast, i need something that lifts the ansi contrast significantly above JVC level, and the SONY do that, but the on off is so god awfull on the SONY that its a joke, + the banding issues can be fairly anoying, i adore its stable solid image and high ansi contrast, and to be fair the on off contrast might only be relevant in 3% of all content, but when it is, its far more obvious.
If ansi dont matter i already have the best projector, i just think both on off and ansi contrast is important, and i would be satisfied with 100.000:1 on off with 14fl on scren and 400-500:1 ansi, black bars will be significantly darker, colors cleaner, and highlights not washing out lower level details.

My 3000 does not have the streaking with Oppo screen saver.My RS4500 had next to none and the same with my RS640. 130:1 ANSI on a JVC sounds like a defective JVC. In the darker scenes, the native is the controlling factor, not ANSI. In the brighter scenes, the brightness in the image dilates the pupils, So the black appears darker. That is why you can't tell a difference in lower ANSI contrast. 

[AVSMike]

Might be a problem with your equipment then, i know my meter measures a bit lower than some others, but not that much, and in the same setup conditions its fairly good guide of the difference.
Didrik got around the same results as i did, its as simple as displaying the ansi testpattern on screen, if its not obviously better on the sony ill say you have some issues in your room.
If you really apriciate the JVC ansi contrast and dont see the difference, you should try a good CRT, it will blow your ming with 5 times better on off contrast than you have ever seen before.

Kris Deering and others have done side by side tests, using a DLP (Samsung 900) with around 1,000:1 ANSI vs a 1080P JVC with around 230:1 ANSI. Everyone there was hard pressed to be able to tell any difference in the brighter scenes, but you could easily tell in the dark scenes, how much better the JVC was. As I said, your eyes are biased, by the brighter scenes and it made the darker areas of the image appear darker, so it was hard to tell a difference between the two projectors. These were controlled conditions with brightness matched and calibrated projectors.

[AVSMike]

Yeah with a dynamic iris, but that dont really work in dark scenes as it compleetly messes up your gamma performance out of black, your lucky if you have 70000:1 with auto iris turned off, im talking about true contrast not manipulated gimick contrast.True the JVC most likely measure around 150:1 using the Klein K10A but again the SONY also measure higher.
What you could do is setup your meter shoot a picture of the setup conditions and the measurements and post it here, only takes 10 min to do.

I do also remember your contrast measurements on the norwegian forum where Gorm had to correct your calculations so im fairly sceptical about your measurements, you seem to be on your own here, if i recall it was actually around 30000:1

Most of Oblivion shows quite well the superior ANSI from the SONY, even in low level scenes, and good ansi also help low level scenes remain more well defined as they elevate as it will push up the point where the bright elements effects the dark areas. Ansi works at any APL, you can try measure a 10% window on your rebadged JVC with a average image surrounding the measuring pattern, and see how it effects all your readings, HCFR have a feature like that, quite interesting. And here ANSI contrast plays a big role keeping the surrounding not poluting the testpattern. Very relevant to how movie content works out.
With CRT i measure around 100:1 ansi contrast, and all the JVC projectors are very identical except a X30 that measured 80:1 the rest is around 130:1 with my equipment, my meter is not optimal for ANSI as it most likely shoots a bit to wide cone, but its consistant, and ill think as good as your meter or maybe even better.

However ill have to take your word for it when you say you cant see the difference as its your eyes, and we all knows some see better or worse than others. Ill still apriciate the benefits of sonys high Ansi contrast, and lack of streaking and spot reflections, to the point ill like to see if i can mount a sony lens on a JVC and see if the issue is the lens itself or in the light engine.

Sorry, but this made me laugh. If you are seeing a significant difference, as in the Sony looks better, then the JVC was not set up properly. This is assuming you are looking at comparable models, like VW695 vs RS2000. There have been many shootouts performed side by side and most people picked the JVC as the overall best projector.

[Dylan Seeger]

A lot of this falls into the realm where the measurements don't always translate to how the human eye perceives things. When you factor in the fact that the majority of Hollywood content falls under the APL range where ANSI contrast actually matters, it goes to show you why most people still prefer the higher on/off of the JVCs. I'm not saying you aren't seeing the difference you say you are, but I've never seen a "large" difference in perceived contrast in brighter scenes when doing A/B comparisons between a Sony 4K and a recent JVC projector, both eshift and native 4K. 

I've also seen 4 different RS2000's now and all of them have a huge reduction in internal reflections. With actual content, I'm not seeing the same tell-tale signs where a small bright part of an image reflects to another part of the screen during a particularly dark scene. Streaking has also been greatly reduced on all 4 of the RS2000s I've seen. ANSI contrast is still pretty low, but I've learned that this is the least meaningful measurement that I normally take. 

I don't think you'll get a Sony lens to work. Instead, I would look into a Mitsubishi HC5 or HC9000. I think the lens is manufactured from the same company that JVC uses. The housing and lens in general, looked nearly identical when I had the top off the HC-5. 

[stridsvognen]

A lot of this falls into the realm where the measurements don't always translate to how the human eye perceives things. When you factor in the fact that the majority of Hollywood content falls under the APL range where ANSI contrast actually matters, it goes to show you why most people still prefer the higher on/off of the JVCs. I'm not saying you aren't seeing the difference you say you are, but I've never seen a "large" difference in perceived contrast in brighter scenes when doing A/B comparisons between a Sony 4K and a recent JVC projector, both eshift and native 4K.

I've also seen 4 different RS2000's now and all of them have a huge reduction in internal reflections. With actual content, I'm not seeing the same tell-tale signs where a small bright part of an image reflects to another part of the screen during a particularly dark scene. Streaking has also been greatly reduced on all 4 of the RS2000s I've seen. ANSI contrast is still pretty low, but I've learned that this is the least meaningful measurement that I normally take.

I don't think you'll get a Sony lens to work. Instead, I would look into a Mitsubishi HC5 or HC9000. I think the lens is manufactured from the same company that JVC uses. The housing and lens in general, looked nearly identical when I had the top off the HC-5.

Im not totaly disagreeing that on off is important, but a combination of both would make for a better image overall, small difference maybe, i still apriciate it, Hate most of the rest of what the SONY do.
There is a really good reason why i overall prefer the Marquee 9500 CRT projector wich much higher native contrast than any other home cinema projector available on the market today, it just kills any JVC in low level performance, however i still see how the ansi contrast have a impact on brighter scenes, and well aware of its weak parts.
It would not really make sense to mount a different lens from the same manufacture, so first ill try find a SONY lens see if it can be custum fitted on the JVC, not that it needs to be perfect, just to satisfy my curiosity, and maybe determine the lens quality, as nobody realy know where the different projectors suffers, it can just as welll be in the mirror and optical blocks in the lamp engine the biggest limitations are, sony could for that matter have the best sharpest lenses, and the worse lamp engine, and JVC the opposite, or whatever way around, all people know is the sum of it all in a factory asembled projector without beeing able to pinpoint where the weak point in the optical path is.
Fact is SONY holds significantly better ansi contrast, and JVC significantly better on off contrast, i doubt anyone can dispute that, and it all holds some importance to image quality, if not you should be happy with a 50:1 ansi contrast, my bet is that above 500:1 will be fairly impossible to see, but how cool would it be if it was possible to put a lens on a jvc and get sony ansi contrast, and compare it to a identical stock JVC, i happen to have 2 old JVC X3 units, wich in most regards performs as well as the last generation 1080P models except total lightoutput, and better native panel on off contrast on the old series.

I think its sad that some people feel a personal atatchment to thair equipment and need to defend it, i find it helthy to keep a open mind, experiment, also beyond normal contrast and brightness adjustment, the narow mindet mentality on forums these days are kind of limiting the objective aproach, i own JVC SONY and others, and ill not hold back discussing flaws and qualities of different manufactures just so others can feel better about their boy toys, im in this hobby to enjoy both the visual and tecnical aspects, and only by knowing the shortcommings and flaws can i try to work around them and reach a better compromise.

[stridsvognen]

Sorry, but this made me laugh. If you are seeing a significant difference, as in the Sony looks better, then the JVC was not set up properly. This is assuming you are looking at comparable models, like VW695 vs RS2000. There have been many shootouts performed side by side and most people picked the JVC as the overall best projector.

https://www.thescreeningroomav.com/single-post/2019/05/01/Initial-Results-From-Our-April-2019-Sony-and-JVC-4K-Projector-Expo-Shootout-Event?fbclid=IwAR1luGzueJccDd14xp-VxGQ2wXy09wB7DNiWOvS8vU2EXOkN8O-dYzQ7HYg

These guy notice a percived higher contrast on the RS3000 over the RS2000, wonder why, and what the ansi contrast measures on those 2 units, as far as im informed the RS3000 is actually one of the only JVC models with higher ansi contrast, the on off contrast was the same.. Are you saying ansi contrast has no relevanse to that experience.?

[stridsvognen]

Here you can see my Cineversum in 2.35:1 mode in 16x9 mode it has even higher on/off as I close the iris down further.

Ill make you a offer, ill call Gorm, the most skilled and best reputed calibrator in Norway, and make him come by your place and calibrate your JVC rebrandet projector, and if he in calibrated mode with 14-16fl on screen, and fixed manual iris setting measures over 300:1 ansi and 120000:1 on off contrast ill pay the calibration and post the report here.

[stridsvognen]

What is the lightoutput on the Sony and JVC when you see the difference?

Matched lightoutput at 15fl on screen.

[Andreas21]

Ill make you a offer, ill call Gorm, the most skilled and best reputed calibrator in Norway, and make him come by your place and calibrate your JVC rebrandet projector, and if he in calibrated mode with 14-16fl on screen, and fixed manual iris setting measures over 300:1 ansi and 120000:1 on off contrast ill pay the calibration and post the report here.

So you dont belive me??

I have known Gorm for 15 years and he has calibrated many projectors for me before I started calibrating myself. And I am sure he can tell you I know what I am doing when it comes to calibrating.

[Andreas21]

Matched lightoutput at 15fl on screen.

Then I can assure you there is something major wrong with your JVC either that or you have a golden Sony sample or maybe even both. I have side by side tested many and always use Oblivion when testing and there is almost no visible difference except when it comes to dark scenes.

As you can see in the comments above here there are many others with experience that have seen the same results as me.

Edit as you can see in the aded picture Oblivion has an ADL of around 10% with a 2.2 gamma and it will be even lover with a 2.3/2.4 gamma. 

[stridsvognen]

So you dont belive me??

I have known Gorm for 15 years and he has calibrated many projectors for me before I started calibrating myself. And I am sure he can tell you I know what I am doing when it comes to calibrating.

Great so ill try call him this week and see if he will do the calibration and confirm your measurements, just need your aproval, and accept ull have to cover the expenses if your measurements are wrong.

[AVSMike]

Im not totaly disagreeing that on off is important, but a combination of both would make for a better image overall, small difference maybe, i still apriciate it, Hate most of the rest of what the SONY do.
There is a really good reason why i overall prefer the Marquee 9500 CRT projector wich much higher native contrast than any other home cinema projector available on the market today, it just kills any JVC in low level performance, however i still see how the ansi contrast have a impact on brighter scenes, and well aware of its weak parts.
It would not really make sense to mount a different lens from the same manufacture, so first ill try find a SONY lens see if it can be custum fitted on the JVC, not that it needs to be perfect, just to satisfy my curiosity, and maybe determine the lens quality, as nobody realy know where the different projectors suffers, it can just as welll be in the mirror and optical blocks in the lamp engine the biggest limitations are, sony could for that matter have the best sharpest lenses, and the worse lamp engine, and JVC the opposite, or whatever way around, all people know is the sum of it all in a factory asembled projector without beeing able to pinpoint where the weak point in the optical path is.
Fact is SONY holds significantly better ansi contrast, and JVC significantly better on off contrast, i doubt anyone can dispute that, and it all holds some importance to image quality, if not you should be happy with a 50:1 ansi contrast, my bet is that above 500:1 will be fairly impossible to see, but how cool would it be if it was possible to put a lens on a jvc and get sony ansi contrast, and compare it to a identical stock JVC, i happen to have 2 old JVC X3 units, wich in most regards performs as well as the last generation 1080P models except total lightoutput, and better native panel on off contrast on the old series.

I think its sad that some people feel a personal atatchment to thair equipment and need to defend it, i find it helthy to keep a open mind, experiment, also beyond normal contrast and brightness adjustment, the narow mindet mentality on forums these days are kind of limiting the objective aproach, i own JVC SONY and others, and ill not hold back discussing flaws and qualities of different manufactures just so others can feel better about their boy toys, im in this hobby to enjoy both the visual and tecnical aspects, and only by knowing the shortcommings and flaws can i try to work around them and reach a better compromise.

99% of the rooms out there can't hit 300:1 ANSI. And I bet 99.99% can't hit 400:1 ANSI. Now a lot of rooms can hit above 50:1 ANSI, so yes, you do want more than that. It is just that once you get above 300:1, it makes very little difference.

[AVSMike]

https://www.thescreeningroomav.com/single-post/2019/05/01/Initial-Results-From-Our-April-2019-Sony-and-JVC-4K-Projector-Expo-Shootout-Event?fbclid=IwAR1luGzueJccDd14xp-VxGQ2wXy09wB7DNiWOvS8vU2EXOkN8O-dYzQ7HYg

These guy notice a percived higher contrast on the RS3000 over the RS2000, wonder why, and what the ansi contrast measures on those 2 units, as far as im informed the RS3000 is actually one of the only JVC models with higher ansi contrast, the on off contrast was the same.. Are you saying ansi contrast has no relevanse to that experience.?

ANSI is about the same on the 2000 and the 3000 and on those two particular projectors, the native measured about the same. So it was not ANSI and it was not native that made the 3000 look to have higher perceived contrast. Why it was speculated that the 3000 appeared to have better perceived contrast was the higher MTF of the 3000 lens.

[Andreas21]

Great so ill try call him this week and see if he will do the calibration and confirm your measurements, just need your aproval, and accept ull have to cover the expenses if your measurements are wrong.

I know what I am doing and I will not let you insult me anymore, I am done with you!