AVS Discussions

Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)

Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
« on: January 24, 2018, 05:11:45 PM »
Alright, lets get something started here.

There's been scattered talk about playing HDR lately, with the advent of ripping UHD BDs, we've got some new options, so lets talk about them.  In the other forum some have claimed madVR is amazing (not doubting it at all) but I thought I'd start a thread here to talk about it all.

Specifically, I wanted to start a discussion about madVR and how to set it up, what works, etc (not saying I've got the answers :)).  So I've been playing with madVR and UBDs for a few days now, part of the discussion is about highlight saturation, so I thought I'd take a look.  There's a scene in BvS where the Kryptonian monster releases and energy blast, it was the first scene where I figured out what Javs and others were talking about about loss of saturation with a "sub optimal" curve.  Here's what I get with a couple different options:

First "native" HDR, via a custom curve on my RS600:


Next madVR's SDR conversion set to 0% Luminance 100% Saturation reduction:


Here's madVR 50% Luminance, 50% Saturation:


And finally madVR 100% Luminance 0% Saturation reduction


Now, my custom curve is 4000 nits, 100 nit peak, 25 nit reference, with an end slope of 0.6.

madVR is set to 400 nits display target. 

I'm not sure how well this shows up in the pictures, but here's what I notice.  First things first, talking highlights, it's not a night and day difference. I notice that the, lets say "mid tones", or lower highlights are brighter with madVR.  Of course that may come down to my display target in madVR.  I started at 200 nits, but that was far brighter than SDR, so I've been reducing since then, possibly I could go a bit more.

What's maybe more interesting is what happens in the actual highlights, namely the beam in the center.

What I notice, mostly, is that if you set madVR to 100% luminance reduction, you lose detail in the highlights.  The difference to my eye, between 50/50 and 0/50 is almost none. 

Beyond that, I'm not really sure, there's a bit of a difference in tone between the custom curve and 50/50, specifically in the highlights, problem is, I'm not really sure which one is more "right".

So, thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 03:35:38 AM by stanger89 »

Tom Bley

  • *****
  • 180
  • We'll just do it in Dubly
Re: Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2018, 06:50:26 PM »
It's not a "Knight And Day" difference.  I see what you did there.   :P  ;D

They all look so close.  Even after I try to dissect each part of the picture.   I'm sure it looks different in person and on a big screen.  I like the native HDR the best and then maybe the madvr 50/50.  For me, I still want a great tone mapped sdr bt2020 picture for the simple fact of running the projector in low lamp, being quieter and giving off less heat.  I'm really glad Oppo is still working on this and Kris has said the beta version looks really good so far.

Re: Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2018, 07:25:54 PM »
I also do not see much difference, But I also like the first picture. The custom curve. Is the difference in the pictures a lot bigger, when looking at them on screen? I am also looking forward to seeing what Oppo comes up with.
Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com

JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Carada, Da-Lite, Vutec, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan, Def Tech, RBH, M&K and many other brands.

bmoney

  • *****
  • 592
Re: Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2018, 07:35:16 PM »
I just switched tonight to using oppo strip meta with 300 nits

And used custom gammA 1 but instead of import I used the 2.4 correction

I think it’s a better picture than the custom gammA alone using hdr2020

Hope it gets even better when oppo releases the new tone mapping

Re: Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2018, 03:52:52 AM »
It's not a "Knight And Day" difference.  I see what you did there.   :P  ;D

You mean, that I was delirious when I typed that apparently?   8)

Quote
They all look so close.  Even after I try to dissect each part of the picture.   I'm sure it looks different in person and on a big screen.  I like the native HDR the best and then maybe the madvr 50/50.

Yeah, I'm still not sure what one I like best.  I should probably check out the same scene on my OLED and see how it looks there, to figure out which one is most "right".

Quote
For me, I still want a great tone mapped sdr bt2020 picture for the simple fact of running the projector in low lamp, being quieter and giving off less heat.  I'm really glad Oppo is still working on this and Kris has said the beta version looks really good so far.

And for me, either way I run it in high lamp, that way I still get all the HDR-ness, I was really just interested in trying madVR's tone mapping due to Kris's comments about how he could never get the JVC to look "right" with native HDR, he had to use a Lumagen or Oppo-beta tone mapping.  And then Manni tried madVR and said it was great.

So for me, it's just a different way of skinning the cat.  I suppose though, given the context of Kris's comments, I should be checking out shadow detail/color, since I believe that's where Kris found the "deficiency" in JVC's native HDR.


I also do not see much difference, But I also like the first picture. The custom curve. Is the difference in the pictures a lot bigger, when looking at them on screen? I am also looking forward to seeing what Oppo comes up with.

It's not really greater on screen.  Those pics were all exactly the same camera settings, and no post adjustments (other than cropping/resizing)

Tom Bley

  • *****
  • 180
  • We'll just do it in Dubly
Re: Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2018, 05:20:29 AM »
Stanger, what screen and size did you have again?

Re: Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2018, 05:35:59 AM »
It's a 110" wide scope, but I was lazy and didn't zoom for those pictures so that was about 83" wide.

Tom Bley

  • *****
  • 180
  • We'll just do it in Dubly
Re: Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2018, 06:48:47 AM »
It's a 110" wide scope, but I was lazy and didn't zoom for those pictures so that was about 83" wide.

Wow, only 110" wide.  Is it AT?  I would think you could get away with low lamp easily if you wanted to do SDR2020 but, if the higher noise of the fan doesn't bother you, that's good.  I like being able to close the iris down using SDR2020 and use low lamp.  I can then open the iris a couple clicks as the bulb ages.  From what I've seen hdr & sdr2020 doesn't look a whole lot different to me on our projectors and if Oppo can get it looking correct this will be excellent for me.

It will be nice when we can get bright laser light sources for decent prices and make hdr look even better...hopefully without to much cooling noise if you need to run in high mode.

Mike
Sorry, hit wrong button. :)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 07:10:47 AM by AVSMike »

Re: Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2018, 07:00:49 AM »
Wow, only 110" wide.  Is it AT?

Yeah, it's Ruben's original custom sheerweave fabric (I really need to get a new screen, the weave is a bit coarse for "4K").

Quote
I would think you could get away with low lamp easily if you wanted to do SDR2020 but, if the higher noise of the fan doesn't bother you, that's good.

I could run low lamp, I actually did for quite a while.  But after comparing the last Harry Potter on my OLED, I like the extra punch I get in high lamp.  If my i1D3 is to be believe I get right at 15-16fL (~50 nits) in low lamp at -9, and I want to say I was getting only about 80 or so at -0.  If I bump to high lamp, I think I'm at 100-110.

Quote
I like being able to close the iris down using SDR2020 and use low lamp.  I can then open the iris a couple clicks as the bulb ages.  From what I've seen hdr & sdr2020 doesn't look a whole lot different to me on our projectors and if Oppo can get it looking correct this will be excellent for me.

Yeah, they don't really look that different to me either, not with a good custom curve at least.  But regardless of which way you do it, it's still HDR, and deserves the extra punch over true SDR.

Quote
It will be nice when we can get bright laser light sources for decent prices and make hdr look even better...hopefully without to much cooling noise if you need to run in high mode.

A laser RS6x0 with maybe 2500 lumens would be quite nice.

bmoney

  • *****
  • 592
Re: Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2018, 07:06:48 AM »
just to confirm....if using one of javs custom curves...with sdr2020 (having the oppo do that) and i select correction as gamma 2.4 instead of import...im doing this correctly correct? and still get the benefits of the custom curve?

Re: Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2018, 07:11:01 AM »
Wow, only 110" wide.  Is it AT?  I would think you could get away with low lamp easily if you wanted to do SDR2020 but, if the higher noise of the fan doesn't bother you, that's good.  I like being able to close the iris down using SDR2020 and use low lamp.  I can then open the iris a couple clicks as the bulb ages.  From what I've seen hdr & sdr2020 doesn't look a whole lot different to me on our projectors and if Oppo can get it looking correct this will be excellent for me.

It will be nice when we can get bright laser light sources for decent prices and make hdr look even better...hopefully without to much cooling noise if you need to run in high mode.

Mike
Sorry, hit wrong button. :)

Having a laser light source is nice. You don't really have to think about how often you turn the projector off and on. You can use the projector just like a TV, without worrying about lamp hours.
Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com

JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Carada, Da-Lite, Vutec, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan, Def Tech, RBH, M&K and many other brands.

Re: Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2018, 07:12:00 AM »
Yeah, it's Ruben's original custom sheerweave fabric (I really need to get a new screen, the weave is a bit coarse for "4K").

I could run low lamp, I actually did for quite a while.  But after comparing the last Harry Potter on my OLED, I like the extra punch I get in high lamp.  If my i1D3 is to be believe I get right at 15-16fL (~50 nits) in low lamp at -9, and I want to say I was getting only about 80 or so at -0.  If I bump to high lamp, I think I'm at 100-110.

Yeah, they don't really look that different to me either, not with a good custom curve at least.  But regardless of which way you do it, it's still HDR, and deserves the extra punch over true SDR.

A laser RS6x0 with maybe 2500 lumens would be quite nice.

Have you seen the V6 fabric? I can't remember if we have sent a sample to you or not?
Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com

JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Carada, Da-Lite, Vutec, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan, Def Tech, RBH, M&K and many other brands.

bmoney

  • *****
  • 592
Re: Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2018, 07:14:54 AM »
Having a laser light source is nice. You don't really have to think about how often you turn the projector off and on. You can use the projector just like a TV, without worrying about lamp hours.

literally the ONLY thing I hate about PJ's I already have 60 hours on my new rs600....and that bugs me...dont know why...but it does lol

Re: Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2018, 07:24:39 AM »
literally the ONLY thing I hate about PJ's I already have 60 hours on my new rs600....and that bugs me...dont know why...but it does lol

Watch the movie, rather than the hour meter. :) As much as I like laser, I really have to admit, I have not bought very many replacement lamps for my projectors. Now I do not keep many of them long, but I did keep my RS45 for six years and only bought one replacement lamp. My RS45 was used regularly. It was my nightly TV watching projector in my family room. So as much as we complain about lamps, it really has not been an issue for me at all.
Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com

JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Carada, Da-Lite, Vutec, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan, Def Tech, RBH, M&K and many other brands.

bmoney

  • *****
  • 592
Re: Playing HDR Discussions (madVR, native HDR, DSPlayer, etc)
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2018, 07:38:20 AM »
Watch the movie, rather than the hour meter. :) As much as I like laser, I really have to admit, I have not bought very many replacement lamps for my projectors. Now I do not keep many of them long, but I did keep my RS45 for six years and only bought one replacement lamp. My RS45 was used regularly. It was my nightly TV watching projector in my family room. So as much as we complain about lamps, it really has not been an issue for me at all.

i do... :)

the other night I was checking if i was getting HDR in the info screen and was shocked I was at 60 hours already lol....