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What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?

What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?
« on: December 10, 2017, 08:18:12 PM »
I'm just sitting here thinking that after 4K and HDR settles where can we go from here? I genuinely don't think 8K is going to make sense from a consumer video format standpoint. With 99% of people using a 65" or smaller TVs (and I don't think TVs larger than this will be viewed as kosher for the normal living room, aka non-WAF) the benefits of >4K resolution don't make sense. Sure, us in the niche home theater segment would marvel at more resolution, but I doubt that's going to happen for at least 15 or more years. This is especially so knowing that UHD blu-ray was created to be an evolving standard.

So what do you guys think will be next? For projectors, I can see laser light sources becoming more widely utilized and brought down in price over the next few years, but after that, where do we go?

Re: What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2017, 08:19:56 PM »
Or to add this... what do you guys want to see happen?

I'll start by saying that I think UHD Blu-ray needs to become even more standardized with stricter guidelines on what studios should/can master at. I also want to see some changes done with metadata via an amendment to the UHD Blu-ray standard. What I find particularly puzzling is that different Hollywood studios want to grade for different peak white and black level and expect people to just know how it was graded. At the moment, I'm forced to use my HD Fury Integral to get this information. It should be standardized to "tell" the connected device via metadata this information so the display can automatically adapt in the digital domain to the proper points. This would force display makers to have several gamma/EOTF curves, but that shouldn't be too much to ask for especially when we're paying thousands for our projectors. UHD blu-ray is already confusing enough to most people and not making it more "plug-n-play" just creates more headaches and improper viewing sessions.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 08:27:07 PM by Dylan Seeger »

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Re: What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2017, 08:43:12 PM »
Or to add this... what do you guys want to see happen?

I'll start by saying that I think UHD Blu-ray needs to become even more standardized with stricter guidelines on what studios should/can master at. I also want to see some changes done with metadata via an amendment to the UHD Blu-ray standard. What I find particularly puzzling is that different Hollywood studios want to grade for different peak white and black level and expect people to just know how it was graded. At the moment, I'm forced to use my HD Fury Integral to get this information. It should be standardized to "tell" the connected device via metadata this information so the display can automatically adapt in the digital domain to the proper points. This would force display makers to have several gamma/EOTF curves, but that shouldn't be too much to ask for especially when we're paying thousands for our projectors. UHD blu-ray is already confusing enough to most people and not making it more "plug-n-play" just creates more headaches and improper viewing sessions.

I'd be happy to see this. In a way the roll out of 4K UHD Blu-ray has been more of a headache than the HD DVD / Blu-ray format war. Some of these movies look great when they do it right. Watched Atomic Blonde on 4K BR last night. That disc looks superb on my RS4500. Tonight I watched Wind River with some friends that have never seen it. Blu-ray still has some life in it - pretty damn good looking picture.

As far as projectors go, laser, brighter, less expensive, native 4K - that's what everyone wants. Just going to take time. Currently I feel I can't ask for much more. I'm pretty darn happy with my projector.
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Re: What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2017, 10:06:15 PM »
It just seems like things were rushed and everyone is just doing whatever they want. Between people trying to wrap their heads around what HDR, WCG and the new HDMI standards are, it's just a bit excessive to think that regular Joe's are going to know how to check and set peak white and black level on a per disc basis. With that said, I doubt your average Joe would even notice an issue anyways so maybe it doesn't matter?

I always get a chuckle when I see commercials on TV for HDR. None of the commercials actually tell people what it really is and that's because it's way too complicated to explain in a 30 second TV ad. It's always something false like "More contrast and better colors" and I understand why as those are relatable terms to everyday Joe's. My only point here is that if everyday people can't understand HDR then they sure as hell aren't going to understand clip point and crush points. It needs to be more plug n' play and I hope the BDA fixes this with an amendment.


Re: What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2017, 10:15:31 PM »
I'd like to see:
2.35:1 projectors
More lumens
Led or laser light source

Re: What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2017, 07:03:40 AM »
Home theater?  I wonder if large, emissive displays are the future.  Either the modular LED panels if they get the price out of the stratosphere, or the mythical roll out OLED screens.

I'll start by saying that I think UHD Blu-ray needs to become even more standardized with stricter guidelines on what studios should/can master at. I also want to see some changes done with metadata via an amendment to the UHD Blu-ray standard. What I find particularly puzzling is that different Hollywood studios want to grade for different peak white and black level and expect people to just know how it was graded. At the moment, I'm forced to use my HD Fury Integral to get this information. It should be standardized to "tell" the connected device via metadata this information so the display can automatically adapt in the digital domain to the proper points.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at, for two reasons really.  First, that's the point of the metadata, so that the display will know the mastering info, and will be able to do the right thing.  The problem for us is projectors are dumb and don't do the right thing automatically.

But the second part is, I'm with Manni, ChadB and others that I just don't see the point of multiple calibrations.  Outside of the few badly authored discs (and we had those with SDR as well), a good universal 4000 nit clipping calibration works well for every UHD BD I've thrown at my RS600.

I definitely agree that display, projector manufacturers have a ways to go on their HDR implementations, and authors have a ways to go with ensuring the metadata is present and accurate, but as far as specs go, it's all there already.  With my Vertex I could (if I felt the need) have it automatically throw my RS600 into the right calibration based on MaxCLL of any UHD BD that I throw in, but in my experience there's no benefit to multiple curves, and I just have it kick me into my 4000 nit HDR curve and move on.  Of course, I shouldn't have to buy a Vertex to get that functionality, JVC should have it built in.  IMO projectors should have a calibration setting for both nominal brightness to set the overall level of the HDR curve, and then a setting for measured peak white so it can then correctly roll off the curve.  Ideally it should do it based on the metadata, but for now I'd accept if they just gave us an option to pick a clipping point.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 07:05:26 AM by stanger89 »

Re: What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2017, 08:05:56 AM »
I'd be happy to see this. In a way the roll out of 4K UHD Blu-ray has been more of a headache than the HD DVD / Blu-ray format war. Some of these movies look great when they do it right. Watched Atomic Blonde on 4K BR last night. That disc looks superb on my RS4500. Tonight I watched Wind River with some friends that have never seen it. Blu-ray still has some life in it - pretty damn good looking picture.

As far as projectors go, laser, brighter, less expensive, native 4K - that's what everyone wants. Just going to take time. Currently I feel I can't ask for much more. I'm pretty darn happy with my projector.

And more contrast. A projector that has the sharpness of the 4500, 5,000 or more laser lumens, the contrast of an RS640, Dolby Vision and the cost of an RS640 would be the ultimate machine. :)

RGB laser would be nice. :)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 08:07:56 AM by AVSMike »
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Re: What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2017, 09:10:38 AM »
This relates to front projection only:

I don't know, in my opinion I just don't think HDR and front projection mix.  It think that the jump from 1080p to native 4k provides the biggest gain in image quality over anything else.  I still think that a 4k image w/full REC 709 looks phenomenal to me on my projector.  I think for front projection HDR, as it is being implemented now does more bad than good from what I can see.  Some of the most pleasing images I have seen to date is 4k rec709 material on my RS 4500.  I never thought that I would say that but for me it's the truth.  There are some UHD titles that are fantastic but many of them just seem too artificial to me?  I am sure much of that has to do with the remastering process for UHD release, but up to this point I am not sold on HDR for front projection.

I would like to see front projection as Mike describes above.  If there can be more brightness and higher contrast I think my HDR qualms would diminish greatly.  Obviously that would come with a price but I'd be willing to spend for it if it achieved high contrast and brightness together.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 09:15:19 AM by Baseball0618 »
JVC RS4500 projector/LG 65B7P/LG 55B7P/ Pannasonic UB900/Oppo 203/Oppo 103D/Apple tv 4K
St 130 138" scope screen
Marantz 7704 /Integra DTA 70.1
7.2.2 Atmos

Re: What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2017, 09:36:03 AM »
This relates to front projection only:

I don't know, in my opinion I just don't think HDR and front projection mix.  It think that the jump from 1080p to native 4k provides the biggest gain in image quality over anything else.  I still think that a 4k image w/full REC 709 looks phenomenal to me on my projector.  I think for front projection HDR, as it is being implemented now does more bad than good from what I can see.  Some of the most pleasing images I have seen to date is 4k rec709 material on my RS 4500.  I never thought that I would say that but for me it's the truth.  There are some UHD titles that are fantastic but many of them just seem too artificial to me?  I am sure much of that has to do with the remastering process for UHD release, but up to this point I am not sold on HDR for front projection.

When I read comments like this (specifically the artificial comments), the thing that pops into mind is "calibration".  HDR is not nearly as easy to calibrate as SDR, it seems most projectors don't come that close to good/correct out of the box, and the typical procedure we're used to for calibrating SDR simply can't be applied directly to HDR and, and without a proper HDR calibration, well, all bets are off.

But once you do get HDR dialed in, then it's anything but artificial.

Re: What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2017, 09:42:14 AM »
When I read comments like this (specifically the artificial comments), the thing that pops into mind is "calibration".  HDR is not nearly as easy to calibrate as SDR, it seems most projectors don't come that close to good/correct out of the box, and the typical procedure we're used to for calibrating SDR simply can't be applied directly to HDR and, and without a proper HDR calibration, well, all bets are off.

But once you do get HDR dialed in, then it's anything but artificial.

I am patiently waiting for ChadB to come back east to properly calibrate my RS4500 so that might just change my mind.  I had my previous projector (665es) calibrated but it was before much of the HDR calibration tools were available and that projector wasn't capable of doing much justice to HDR anyway. 
JVC RS4500 projector/LG 65B7P/LG 55B7P/ Pannasonic UB900/Oppo 203/Oppo 103D/Apple tv 4K
St 130 138" scope screen
Marantz 7704 /Integra DTA 70.1
7.2.2 Atmos

Re: What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2017, 09:59:35 AM »
Home theater?  I wonder if large, emissive displays are the future.  Either the modular LED panels if they get the price out of the stratosphere, or the mythical roll out OLED screens.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at, for two reasons really.  First, that's the point of the metadata, so that the display will know the mastering info, and will be able to do the right thing.  The problem for us is projectors are dumb and don't do the right thing automatically.

But the second part is, I'm with Manni, ChadB and others that I just don't see the point of multiple calibrations.  Outside of the few badly authored discs (and we had those with SDR as well), a good universal 4000 nit clipping calibration works well for every UHD BD I've thrown at my RS600.

I definitely agree that display, projector manufacturers have a ways to go on their HDR implementations, and authors have a ways to go with ensuring the metadata is present and accurate, but as far as specs go, it's all there already.  With my Vertex I could (if I felt the need) have it automatically throw my RS600 into the right calibration based on MaxCLL of any UHD BD that I throw in, but in my experience there's no benefit to multiple curves, and I just have it kick me into my 4000 nit HDR curve and move on.  Of course, I shouldn't have to buy a Vertex to get that functionality, JVC should have it built in.  IMO projectors should have a calibration setting for both nominal brightness to set the overall level of the HDR curve, and then a setting for measured peak white so it can then correctly roll off the curve.  Ideally it should do it based on the metadata, but for now I'd accept if they just gave us an option to pick a clipping point.

That's kind of my point. I know the metadata is there and that the displays can see it. My point is that they aren't utilizing it to make the experience more plug n' play. While a single EOTF can be made, you still need to adjust the contrast and brightness setting depending on the mastering points so the projector can resolve say above 2000 nits or whatever your EOTF is. Things need to be far more plug n' play IMO. Maybe in the next couple years we'll see these projectors do this, but for now, it requires a lot of know how and test patterns to make sure things are set properly. Most people aren't going to go to these lengths. Remember I'm talking about consumers in general. Most of us projector owners are well versed in all of this, but most people aren't and shouldn't be expected to, to get a properly set up image.

Re: What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2017, 10:53:41 AM »
Home theater?  I wonder if large, emissive displays are the future.  Either the modular LED panels if they get the price out of the stratosphere, or the mythical roll out OLED screens

Pete Putnam has been talking about this at hdtvexpert for awhile now. The big pj market is starting to get hit by the panels. Sony Cledis and Samsung's wall are expensive now, but it is only a matter of time. Imagine running a handful of LG OLEDs for a twelve foot wide screen.

Re: What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2017, 11:31:54 AM »
Pete Putnam has been talking about this at hdtvexpert for awhile now. The big pj market is starting to get hit by the panels. Sony Cledis and Samsung's wall are expensive now, but it is only a matter of time. Imagine running a handful of LG OLEDs for a twelve foot wide screen.

It might be damaging to you eyes!
JVC RS4500 projector/LG 65B7P/LG 55B7P/ Pannasonic UB900/Oppo 203/Oppo 103D/Apple tv 4K
St 130 138" scope screen
Marantz 7704 /Integra DTA 70.1
7.2.2 Atmos

Re: What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2017, 11:33:06 AM »
Due to the characteristics of sound reproduction there are several aspects that will influence the actual benefit of LED or OLED "tile walls"; one of them being the obvious one in not being AT, but the fact that such a large surface is creating a bunch of acoustical issues in a small room is certainly also relevant. Both challenges can be partially solved, either by increasing the dispersion of the speakers, which is hard to do, and even if it is possible, not optimal for other reasons such as having to toe in, missing out on "audio presented from where the action takes place" and so on. The issue with the large reflective surface might be reduced by adding more acoustical treatments to the room, but will also be very challenging. Other than that, the actual REAL ESTATE of a room is compromised significantly by not using AT fabrics. Might not be that much of a challenge for some US home cinemas, but in Europe - even the "hi-end" home cinemas are seldom much larger than 10-12 x 20-25 ft. (mine, for example, is 12 x 25 ft, and I´m regarded as pretty crazy for spending that much space where I´m from...).

Another important aspect is to remember that HT is indeed a small niche and a bunch of us HT folks actually WANT the projector. Perhaps off of sentimental reasons, but be as it may; we´re the people actually spending the money right now and probably at least for the next 10 years or so will still be - and we usually get what we (or; our wallet) want... Might still be a lot of OTHER folks that would want a huge TV, and by all means, I´m sure there is space for the lot of us...

As for projection as such, it´s certainly room for improvement. Largest concern is contrast for sure. Light output is solvable, contrast seems much harder. Really too bad Dolby / Christie got a patent on the light blocking chip idea, it´s one of those "duh, why didn´t I think of that....!", but it is indeed a brilliant one as such and should have been figured out a long time ago. Problem is that the projection developers seems to lack the "out-of-the-box" creativity that Dolby seemingly has in abundance... ;) Perhaps we´ll be as lucky as to have Dolby / Christie license out the tech? How about a D-ILA light blocking optical engine layout providing a potentially 30.000 (:1) x 30.000 (:1) = infinite contrast...... ;)

What will be the next big thingie though... Hard one. What would I LIKE to be the next thing; RGB laser, 1.000.000:1, 5000 AL (or more, as long as contrast is sufficient...), razor sharp, properly resolved 4K (much rather than some soft 8K that you´d need a 100k lens to resolve anyhow), silent, DCI +++.... AND of course - combine this with a stellar neutral gain AT screen (wonder which I´m thinking of?? ;)), speakers installed in a custom baffle wall, powered masking, Alcons audio sound system - batcave´ish of course - and I´m in HT heaven.... ;)
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Re: What's The Next "Big" Thing for Consumer Video?
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2017, 11:34:10 AM »
That's kind of my point. I know the metadata is there and that the displays can see it. My point is that they aren't utilizing it to make the experience more plug n' play.

Yup, display and source folks could definitely be doing a better job.

Quote
While a single EOTF can be made, you still need to adjust the contrast and brightness setting depending on the mastering points so the projector can resolve say above 2000 nits or whatever your EOTF is.

In theory, sure, but in practice, there's really no visual difference for content that maxes out < 1100 nits with a 1100 nit calibration and a 4000 nit calibration.

Quote
Things need to be far more plug n' play IMO. Maybe in the next couple years we'll see these projectors do this, but for now, it requires a lot of know how and test patterns to make sure things are set properly.

Oh I agree completely, HDR is not easy right now, I wish JVC/Sony/etc would hire Manni or Arve to help them get their "stuff" together.  From an engineering standpoint it's not really that complicated, Manni and Arve have demonstrated that (and I mean absolutely no offense to them, just that they've shown it doesn't take thousands of hours and tens of people to get this stuff to work).

Quote
Most people aren't going to go to these lengths. Remember I'm talking about consumers in general. Most of us projector owners are well versed in all of this, but most people aren't and shouldn't be expected to, to get a properly set up image.

Yeah, I'm not saying things are good, but I think foundationally all the necessary data exists and is in place (assuming it's populated correctly).  All we really need is for JVC/Sony/etc to read through some of the calibration threads and implement that stuff internally.