AVS Discussions
  Go Down

JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #630 on: April 04, 2017, 05:55:28 PM »
Besides projectors capping off their dynamic range to leave room for HDR, the other main issue is that no movie seems to have been mastered alike! I mean; take The Revenant and Deadpool @ HDR for example - you basically need to recalibrate or at least tune gamma totally different for both movies to avoid bunch of noise on low IRE on The Reverant OR black crush on Deadpool..... I mean; what were they thinking releasing such an unfinished "feature" and leaving the mess to the public to figure out. I understand something was needed after 3D failed, SURE, but our entire industry is really doing themselves no service by introducing "standards" that really are not. I guess the main problem is that we no longer have this one strong entity that controls stuff, like the good ol´ VHS days, or Walkman for that matter. HDR being a "open format" is really what has made all these approaches differ on both the mastering side and display as well... Thus, I have no problem paying Dolby a fair license to actually put the madness into some kind of system, and before they do I´ll convert all 4K movies to SDR 10-bit which I am perfectly happy with for the time being... :)
Proudly Representing DreamScreen.no // ScreenAcoustics.com // AT screens & more!

Founder AVforum.no // Norway´s leading AV community since 2002

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #631 on: April 04, 2017, 06:03:24 PM »
I must say the the HDR user preset has made me happy to just " plug and play " 4K UHD BR's at ths point. I think they look great !  :)

The Z1 might be good at tuning HDR from various mastering techniques for all I know by the way Craig! I have only tested the DLA-X5000 using the custom gamma curve and oversaturated settings manually on a screen that was acceptably sized for HDR (100"). Never even tested HDR on the Z1, my previous experience was such a disappointment that I simply have avoided HDR altogether. But you know what; I´ll give the Z1 a go @ HDR tomorrow, zooming in a 100-120" image, and I´ll do The Reverant + Deadpool again just to see if the automatic HDR stuff on the Z1 actually has been able to compensate somewhat for the issues with mastering differences... I´ll report back my findings! :)
Proudly Representing DreamScreen.no // ScreenAcoustics.com // AT screens & more!

Founder AVforum.no // Norway´s leading AV community since 2002

AVSMike

  • *****
  • 2010
Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #632 on: April 04, 2017, 06:57:20 PM »
...problem with allowing firmware update to Dolby Vision, when come to think of it, is probably license cost... In such case; I also own a Tesla and I encourage JVC to think like mr. Musk; giving stuff away makes for loyal all the way!! 3 years of driving a Tesla I am yet to pay any roaming cost for data download, they gave me free Spotify a year ago and new features appear all the time... I´d be more than willing to pay a fee for a more functional HDR feature too by the way; highlights sub-programmed at a per frame level just makes so much more sense from a technical and logical standpoint than simply ripping the entire movies off of most of its dynamics to give room for the current HDR bull...

If we get any DV  UHD  HDR content, then maybe a firmware purchase for DV.
My Baffle Wall System: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=124.msg902#msg902

Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com

JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Da-Lite, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan & more.

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #633 on: April 04, 2017, 09:10:30 PM »
The question is will there be DV on 4K UHD Blu Ray before I amass any more movies ? I'm already up to about 40 titles.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/dv-bd-201703284449.htm

Quote
The first Dolby Vision 4K Ultra HD Blu-rays appeared to have broken cover, and they are the Despicable Me and Despicable Me 2 animated movies from Universal Studios. A Dolby Vision logo was spotted on the back cover artwork of the discs by an eagle-eyed Blu-ray.com member, with the main feature description stating “UHD Dolby Vision/ HDR10 1.85:1 Widescreen”.

Despicable Me Dolby Vision 4K Blu-ray

If true, this makes them the first confirmed 4K Blu-ray titles to support Dolby Vision (DV). To date, all Ultra HD Blu-rays available to buy on the market are only compatible with the open-standard HDR10 format. To clarify, the Dolby Vision metadata will be embedded as an enhanced layer on top of the base HDR10 layer on these Despicable Me discs, so even if you don’t own a Dolby Vision-capable 4K Blu-ray player or HDR TV, you can still watch them in HDR10 ultra-high-definition (UHD) resolution.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/image/news/dm2.jpg
JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)

However, in theory Dolby Vision should offer a superior HDR presentation especially on lesser displays owing to the use of dynamic metadata, which is why many video enthusiasts are clamouring for Dolby Vision content and hardware. We did an indepth comparison of Dolby Vision versus HDR10 on a 2016 LG OLED TV, and thought the former to be better, but felt the advantages shrunk significantly on more capable TVs (specifically top-tier full-array local dimming LED LCDs with peak brightness above 1000 nits). That said, buying a high-end television in 2017 will likely become a tick-box exercise, with prospective buyers thinking twice before spending if Dolby Vision is absent.

Despicable Me and Despicable Me 2 are scheduled for release on the 6th of June 2017. LG’s 2016 and 2017 OLEDs already support Dolby Vision out of the box, and Sony’s ZD9/ Z9D, XE93/ XE94 and A1 OLED will hopefully receive DV firmware updates by then too. In terms of players, the LG UP970 and the OPPO 203 are two we know will bring Dolby Vision compatibility following software upgrades.

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #634 on: April 05, 2017, 04:51:06 AM »
...and if JVC had taken a quick lesson in "do count your chickens before they're hatched", like mr. Musk certainly must be the master of; they´d already introduce the DV update as a future option for the Z1... ;) Still, dynamic metadata will probably be available through regular (dynamic) HDR mastered movies too, question remains if HDMI 2.1 would be required in such case? It seems DV is able to deliver the metadata through HDMI 2.0a (18Gbps) though. Anyhow; new features will always appear and I am not saying people should wait it out - as one would certainly in such case wait forever - but as for current static HDR and projection I am really not a fan, obviously, but I´ll certainly give it a go on the Z1 just for the fun of it! :)
Proudly Representing DreamScreen.no // ScreenAcoustics.com // AT screens & more!

Founder AVforum.no // Norway´s leading AV community since 2002

AVSCraig

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #635 on: April 05, 2017, 11:06:06 AM »
The Z1 might be good at tuning HDR from various mastering techniques for all I know by the way Craig! I have only tested the DLA-X5000 using the custom gamma curve and oversaturated settings manually on a screen that was acceptably sized for HDR (100"). Never even tested HDR on the Z1, my previous experience was such a disappointment that I simply have avoided HDR altogether. But you know what; I´ll give the Z1 a go @ HDR tomorrow, zooming in a 100-120" image, and I´ll do The Reverant + Deadpool again just to see if the automatic HDR stuff on the Z1 actually has been able to compensate somewhat for the issues with mastering differences... I´ll report back my findings! :)

It looks quite good on the Z1 / RS4500. I've watched the following 4K BR's with HDR - " John Wick ", " Star Trek ", " The Revenant " ( twice ), " Kingsman ", " The Magnificent Seven ", " Arrival ", " The Accountant ",  " Hacksaw Ridge " ( twice ), " Salt ", " Allied ", " Enders Game ", " Sully ", " Oblivion ", " The Martian ", " Passengers " and " Start Trek Beyond ". Plus parts of " Everest " and " Deadpool ". They all look great. They only ones that look dark are " Arrival " and " Star Trek Beyond ' - both of which look dark on Blu Ray.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 11:08:20 AM by AVSCraig »

AVSCraig

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #636 on: April 05, 2017, 11:07:37 AM »
...and if JVC had taken a quick lesson in "do count your chickens before they're hatched", like mr. Musk certainly must be the master of; they´d already introduce the DV update as a future option for the Z1... ;) Still, dynamic metadata will probably be available through regular (dynamic) HDR mastered movies too, question remains if HDMI 2.1 would be required in such case? It seems DV is able to deliver the metadata through HDMI 2.0a (18Gbps) though. Anyhow; new features will always appear and I am not saying people should wait it out - as one would certainly in such case wait forever - but as for current static HDR and projection I am really not a fan, obviously, but I´ll certainly give it a go on the Z1 just for the fun of it! :)

I wasn't a fan either, until this projector. Watch " Hacksaw Ridge " !

AVSCraig

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #637 on: April 05, 2017, 01:28:14 PM »
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/dv-bd-201703284449.htm

Interesting. Not a title I'm interested in, and ironically, I'll bet most people will buy that movie in 3D - not 4K. But, if true, it's a start. I'll be interested to hear how well this actually works, when DV HDR support becomes widespread. Going to need a new AVR - again !  :-X

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #638 on: April 05, 2017, 01:48:56 PM »
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/dv-bd-201703284449.htm

Ah, DV is already starting to roll out; let´s just hope JVC chooses to add DV to the Z1 / RS4500 - I mean - if LG and Sony is able to do so their TVs, JVC should have NO problem getting this update made out too provided it is possible to run via software and their processing is of sufficient capacity (...one would presume??)... Still, I´ll give HDR10 a go as well AVScraig, didn´t have time to do test it today, but metadata really should be far superior when light output is limited - provided again the mastering is of proper quality that is... :)
Proudly Representing DreamScreen.no // ScreenAcoustics.com // AT screens & more!

Founder AVforum.no // Norway´s leading AV community since 2002

AVSMike

  • *****
  • 2010
Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #639 on: April 05, 2017, 09:05:44 PM »
I would not hold my breath for Dolby Vision on any current projector. Right now, Dolby is not pursuing any home theater manufacturers. For this to work, it would have to be different than how this is done for flat panels. My guess is, a projector would have to have a sensor to read screen brightness and a way to get screen parameters into the system (screen width or area). Even then it will need a little more than that for those that use an A-lens.
My Baffle Wall System: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=124.msg902#msg902

Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com

JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Da-Lite, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan & more.

AVSCraig

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #640 on: April 11, 2017, 01:51:57 PM »
Ah, DV is already starting to roll out; let´s just hope JVC chooses to add DV to the Z1 / RS4500 - I mean - if LG and Sony is able to do so their TVs, JVC should have NO problem getting this update made out too provided it is possible to run via software and their processing is of sufficient capacity (...one would presume??)... Still, I´ll give HDR10 a go as well AVScraig, didn´t have time to do test it today, but metadata really should be far superior when light output is limited - provided again the mastering is of proper quality that is... :)

Did you get a chance to watch any UHD Blu Rays with the HDR preset yet? I had 4 friends over to watch " Sully " last night. One friend has been coming to my theater for quite some time, but hasn't watched a movie in my theater since I got the RS4500. What's fun about having an enclosed projector closet, is no one really knows what projector they are watching. he has seen quite a few movies on my previous RS600 and VW600. After the movie was over, he turned to me and said " that picture looked really sharp " !  ;D

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #641 on: April 15, 2017, 12:23:37 PM »
Did you get a chance to watch any UHD Blu Rays with the HDR preset yet? I had 4 friends over to watch " Sully " last night. One friend has been coming to my theater for quite some time, but hasn't watched a movie in my theater since I got the RS4500. What's fun about having an enclosed projector closet, is no one really knows what projector they are watching. he has seen quite a few movies on my previous RS600 and VW600. After the movie was over, he turned to me and said " that picture looked really sharp " !  ;D

Have to do some more testing, as my first attempt was very troublesome... Wanted to do some Auro-3D native testing as well on our Datasat RS20i, so I threw Ghostbusters 2 HDR in the player. Terrible black crush, had to increase brightness by 10 points to somewhat compensate for the crush so totally off. Using a Panasonic UB900, just updated with the latest firmware. As for the Z1 I just left everything to default HDR mode. Might be some setting on the UB900 I have missed, I´ll have to try adjusting back to SDR convertion again to see if the black crush remains, but as far as I can recall this particular disc played fine before... So, I guess I need to do some more testing, but thus far I´m still not very impressed by the "plug-and-play" HDR overall system although it might not be the Z1 that is the only accountable party and also this might not apply to other movies, will do some more testing next week for sure! :)

AND - have to underline this as well, did see a number of reference standard blu-ray-clips as well to check the dimming after the firmware update and the unit really performs excellent. I do still see a BIT more pulses / instabilities on the Z1 than the Epson LS10K though, but I guess JVC might be able to do yet another minor fine tuning to get the dimming perfect... Still, overall sharpness, massive light output - and actually quite impressive black levels and also dynamics as well now provides excellent image quality even on the 13 feet wide screen currently being used (@0,8 gain UltraWeave V6). At home I have a Epson LS10K on my 11 feet screen and it´s really no comparison to the Z1 in sharpness, light output and overall performance. LS10K is certainly an OK machine though, but I have to say I prefer the JVC DLA-X5000 (RS420) on just about every aspect over the LS10K except for the laser light source... Suffice to say; the Z1 would have been perfect in my particular setting, but my current surroundings does not allow such a beast to be mounted so I guess my next "test candidate" will be the JVC DLA-X7500 (RS520) as soon as I get my hands on one... Still, the laser light is really appealing, so for people with the proper room (and funds... ;)) I´m quite sure this is one of the top picks at the moment!
Proudly Representing DreamScreen.no // ScreenAcoustics.com // AT screens & more!

Founder AVforum.no // Norway´s leading AV community since 2002

AVSMike

  • *****
  • 2010
Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #642 on: April 15, 2017, 11:55:43 PM »
Have to do some more testing, as my first attempt was very troublesome... Wanted to do some Auro-3D native testing as well on our Datasat RS20i, so I threw Ghostbusters 2 HDR in the player. Terrible black crush, had to increase brightness by 10 points to somewhat compensate for the crush so totally off. Using a Panasonic UB900, just updated with the latest firmware. As for the Z1 I just left everything to default HDR mode. Might be some setting on the UB900 I have missed, I´ll have to try adjusting back to SDR convertion again to see if the black crush remains, but as far as I can recall this particular disc played fine before... So, I guess I need to do some more testing, but thus far I´m still not very impressed by the "plug-and-play" HDR overall system although it might not be the Z1 that is the only accountable party and also this might not apply to other movies, will do some more testing next week for sure! :)

AND - have to underline this as well, did see a number of reference standard blu-ray-clips as well to check the dimming after the firmware update and the unit really performs excellent. I do still see a BIT more pulses / instabilities on the Z1 than the Epson LS10K though, but I guess JVC might be able to do yet another minor fine tuning to get the dimming perfect... Still, overall sharpness, massive light output - and actually quite impressive black levels and also dynamics as well now provides excellent image quality even on the 13 feet wide screen currently being used (@0,8 gain UltraWeave V6). At home I have a Epson LS10K on my 11 feet screen and it´s really no comparison to the Z1 in sharpness, light output and overall performance. LS10K is certainly an OK machine though, but I have to say I prefer the JVC DLA-X5000 (RS420) on just about every aspect over the LS10K except for the laser light source... Suffice to say; the Z1 would have been perfect in my particular setting, but my current surroundings does not allow such a beast to be mounted so I guess my next "test candidate" will be the JVC DLA-X7500 (RS520) as soon as I get my hands on one... Still, the laser light is really appealing, so for people with the proper room (and funds... ;)) I´m quite sure this is one of the top picks at the moment!

I am very pleased with the performance, after the firmware update. Spectacular projector.
My Baffle Wall System: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=124.msg902#msg902

Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com

JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Da-Lite, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan & more.

AVSCraig

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #643 on: April 16, 2017, 12:08:07 PM »
Have to do some more testing, as my first attempt was very troublesome... Wanted to do some Auro-3D native testing as well on our Datasat RS20i, so I threw Ghostbusters 2 HDR in the player. Terrible black crush, had to increase brightness by 10 points to somewhat compensate for the crush so totally off. Using a Panasonic UB900, just updated with the latest firmware. As for the Z1 I just left everything to default HDR mode. Might be some setting on the UB900 I have missed, I´ll have to try adjusting back to SDR convertion again to see if the black crush remains, but as far as I can recall this particular disc played fine before... So, I guess I need to do some more testing, but thus far I´m still not very impressed by the "plug-and-play" HDR overall system although it might not be the Z1 that is the only accountable party and also this might not apply to other movies, will do some more testing next week for sure! :)

AND - have to underline this as well, did see a number of reference standard blu-ray-clips as well to check the dimming after the firmware update and the unit really performs excellent. I do still see a BIT more pulses / instabilities on the Z1 than the Epson LS10K though, but I guess JVC might be able to do yet another minor fine tuning to get the dimming perfect... Still, overall sharpness, massive light output - and actually quite impressive black levels and also dynamics as well now provides excellent image quality even on the 13 feet wide screen currently being used (@0,8 gain UltraWeave V6). At home I have a Epson LS10K on my 11 feet screen and it´s really no comparison to the Z1 in sharpness, light output and overall performance. LS10K is certainly an OK machine though, but I have to say I prefer the JVC DLA-X5000 (RS420) on just about every aspect over the LS10K except for the laser light source... Suffice to say; the Z1 would have been perfect in my particular setting, but my current surroundings does not allow such a beast to be mounted so I guess my next "test candidate" will be the JVC DLA-X7500 (RS520) as soon as I get my hands on one... Still, the laser light is really appealing, so for people with the proper room (and funds... ;)) I´m quite sure this is one of the top picks at the moment!

Are you using Kris Deering's settings for the HDR pre - set ?

" For HDR I use the HDR color profile despite not having quite as much saturation for red as BT2020. One thing I would suggest, take the dark level adjustment in the HDR gamma all the way to max (7). This will not hurt your black floor but it levels out the luminance better and gives HDR images a much better image without looking too dark or overly contrasty. For picture tone I raised it 1 click and I left bright level alone at 0. I think I am running mid laser with aperture fully open for HDR and the laser in mode 2. All standard controls are set to 0. "

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #644 on: April 16, 2017, 03:52:35 PM »
Are you using Kris Deering's settings for the HDR pre - set ?

" For HDR I use the HDR color profile despite not having quite as much saturation for red as BT2020. One thing I would suggest, take the dark level adjustment in the HDR gamma all the way to max (7). This will not hurt your black floor but it levels out the luminance better and gives HDR images a much better image without looking too dark or overly contrasty. For picture tone I raised it 1 click and I left bright level alone at 0. I think I am running mid laser with aperture fully open for HDR and the laser in mode 2. All standard controls are set to 0. "

Thanks, will try! :)
Proudly Representing DreamScreen.no // ScreenAcoustics.com // AT screens & more!

Founder AVforum.no // Norway´s leading AV community since 2002

  Go Up
 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2026, SimplePortal