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Projectors => Premium Projectors => Topic started by: AVSMike on October 22, 2016, 08:16:16 AM

Title: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on October 22, 2016, 08:16:16 AM
At CEDIA JVC introduced a native 4K projector. Interest in this projector was very high. People have been waiting and wanting a JVC native 4K projector for several years. On top of that this projector has high lumen output.

10/22/16 additional information.
The RS4500 will let you do the following:
· Three power mode settings (33%/66%/100%). You have this in conjunction with the manual iris. This should give you a huge range of light output adjustment.
· Two Dynamic Laser Dimming modes (pure Laser, or Laser with gain) that will work with all content including UHD/HDR.

The dimming feature has not been functional at any demo so far.

All previous models could only switch to Gamma D when an HDR signal was present. The RS4500 will instead switch to a full HDR preset which can include BT2020, Gamma D, specific laser/lens settings and a variety of other picture parameters. This is what we have been looking for. Once set up, this should be our plug and play mode for 4K.

The RS4500 does not have any form of E-shift.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on October 24, 2016, 11:05:46 AM
JVC link to the RS4500: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL102459 (http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL102459)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 24, 2016, 03:46:58 PM
It's a long wait for this projector to come out, considering the anticipation !!  :)

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14344826_10210480218702785_6309879121039106913_n.jpg?oh=272fd2524a7278b963db84951faa192e&oe=58A2A2A1)

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14364828_10210480217862764_4952850534019532884_n.jpg?oh=44670369556157f3a512bd1cf337b920&oe=58AA482D)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on October 25, 2016, 08:19:13 AM
JVC is reporting the projector is still on track for the us. I also checked on the Chief mount for this product. Chief is reporting mid to late December for the custom mount. Chief does have a current mount that will work. It is the VCMU: http://www.chiefmfg.com/Products/VCMU (http://www.chiefmfg.com/Products/VCMU)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 25, 2016, 09:47:21 AM
JVC is reporting the projector is still on track for the us. I also checked on the Chief mount for this product. Chief is reporting mid to late December for the custom mount. Chief does have a current mount that will work. It is the VCMU: http://www.chiefmfg.com/Products/VCMU (http://www.chiefmfg.com/Products/VCMU)

That has got to be one beefy mount, since this projector is 90 pounds !  :o
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on October 25, 2016, 07:48:20 PM
That has got to be one beefy mount, since this projector is 90 pounds !  :o

It is rated for 250 pounds, so 90 pounds will not even make it break a sweat. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Rick on November 05, 2016, 11:12:20 AM
I'd love to try and calculate how future-proof this projector might be, especially not having to buy bulbs.  If I think I might keep it for ~15 years (I had my last projector for almost 10 years...buying a new bulb every year), I just might justify the cost!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ellisr63 on November 05, 2016, 12:23:16 PM
What I don't like is that when the life expectancy of the bulb is reached...it is not replaceable. I don't want to buy a disposable projector. :(
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 05, 2016, 12:59:44 PM
What I don't like is that when the life expectancy of the bulb is reached...it is not replaceable. I don't want to buy a disposable projector. :(

Why is it disposable? While you can't replace the light source like you can with a lamp based projector, you could send the projector back to JVC and have them replace the light source. Beside, by the time you wore out the light source, the projector would be so obsolete that it would be long past time to replace it.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 05, 2016, 01:10:41 PM
I'd love to try and calculate how future-proof this projector might be, especially not having to buy bulbs.  If I think I might keep it for ~15 years (I had my last projector for almost 10 years...buying a new bulb every year), I just might justify the cost!

Give us a call, if you would like to discuss.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ellisr63 on November 05, 2016, 03:43:47 PM
Why is it disposable? While you can't replace the light source like you can with a lamp based projector, you could send the projector back to JVC and have them replace the light source. Beside, by the time you wore out the light source, the projector would be so obsolete that it would be long past time to replace it.
I didn't know that, I was told in the past that the LED projectors did not have the option of having the light source repaired by the factory...that changes my opinion 100%. Are all LED projectors the same (major manufacturers), or is it just the high end models? I run 2000-5000 hours per year on my projectors currently...if the light engines are replaceable then it makes this a possiblity for my next projector as long as the lumens are enough. :)
 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 05, 2016, 08:40:02 PM
I didn't know that, I was told in the past that the LED projectors did not have the option of having the light source repaired by the factory...that changes my opinion 100%. Are all LED projectors the same (major manufacturers), or is it just the high end models? I run 2000-5000 hours per year on my projectors currently...if the light engines are replaceable then it makes this a possiblity for my next projector as long as the lumens are enough. :)

The light source is replaceable, just not user replaceable, on the JVC.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 06, 2016, 05:48:59 AM
On other forums, people are thinking they are seeing the finished product. That is not the case. Hardware wise, I am sure it is the finished product, but changes/improvements to the RS4500 software/firmware will be ongoing, right up to ship. This is no different than it is for any other new model JVC brings out.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ellisr63 on November 06, 2016, 09:08:11 AM
Sounds like a great projector...now I need to come out of retirement to get one or win the Lotto. :-\
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 08, 2016, 06:11:09 AM
I am hearing that sync times may be a little better with the RS4500 compared to the existing RS600/500/400, but we will have to wait until there are production models available to confirm.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Ron Jones on November 08, 2016, 06:40:01 AM
.............

All previous models could only switch to Gamma D when an HDR signal was present. The RS4500 will instead switch to a full HDR preset which can include BT2020, Gamma D, specific laser/lens settings and a variety of other picture parameters. This is what we have been looking for. Once set up, this should be our plug and play mode for 4K.


I will be interesting to see if JVC offers any form of dynamic/automatic tone mapping to handle HDR encodes that are using different peak highlight levels (i.e., for the HDR peaks).  Early reports are that Blu-ray UHD discs have been master using anywhere from 800 nits up to 4000 nit as their reference for the peak highlights.  While the exiting JVC projectors, such as my RS600, only have a single HDR gamma preset (i.e., Gamma D) with 3 user adjustments for tone mapping, it should be possible to read the metadata on the disc to determine what tone mapping would be best to apply.  This is perhaps what Sony is doing with some of their new UHD displays. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on November 08, 2016, 08:35:46 AM
I didn't know that, I was told in the past that the LED projectors did not have the option of having the light source repaired by the factory...that changes my opinion 100%. Are all LED projectors the same (major manufacturers), or is it just the high end models? I run 2000-5000 hours per year on my projectors currently...if the light engines are replaceable then it makes this a possiblity for my next projector as long as the lumens are enough. :)

This isn't an LED projector - it uses a laser. Just FYI. Perhaps the laser modules are easier to replace than LED's.

(http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/PRESENT/images/laser_block.jpg)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 10, 2016, 01:35:18 PM
Just spoke with JVC regarding the RS4500. Looks like around 4 weeks delay. They are working on the firmware and want to make sure the projector performs the best that it can.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 12, 2016, 12:34:03 PM
Just spoke with JVC regarding the RS4500. Looks like around 4 weeks delay. They are working on the firmware and want to make sure the projector performs the best that it can.

Honestly, that's what they should do if needed. No one would want a projector that has half it's useful features either completely disabled or not working properly anyways.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on November 13, 2016, 05:01:14 PM
I'm hearing January for shipments at the earliest. And yes, the laser module is replaceable through JVC.

I had a chance to play with one last Friday for a little while. JVC has a new image mode called HDR that significantly simplifies the HDR setup of the projector. It was nearly spot on in default settings with the test patterns I looked at. They also have two new color profiles, one for 2020 using the filter like the existing models and one called HDR that goes as wide as possible WITHOUT the filter to try and preserve light output if the end user would rather go that route.

No word on dynamic mapping to HDR metadata but the projector is HDMI 2.0b compliant so it should support the feature if they want to go that direction.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 13, 2016, 09:01:23 PM
Honestly, that's what they should do if needed. No one would want a projector that has half it's useful features either completely disabled or not working properly anyways.

Not about features not working.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on November 14, 2016, 10:26:41 AM
I will be curious of the inevitable A/B comparisons of the RS500/600 vs the RS4500 with native 4K content.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on November 14, 2016, 12:07:38 PM
I will be curious of the inevitable A/B comparisons of the RS500/600 vs the RS4500 with native 4K content.

That will be interesting.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 17, 2016, 05:33:17 AM
JVC has selected Kris Deering as a reviewer of the RS4500. Congratulations Kris and looking forward to your review. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on November 17, 2016, 10:17:24 AM
JVC has selected Kris Deering as a reviewer of the RS4500. Congratulations Kris and looking forward to your review. :)

Hopefully soon !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jlanzy on November 17, 2016, 10:42:30 AM
I will be curious of the inevitable A/B comparisons of the RS500/600 vs the RS4500 with native 4K content.

I think the law of diminishing returns will raise its head, the RS600 is so good, that despite what laser, true 4K, and a top of the line lens brings in, that most will not find the improvements enough to pony up the difference in cost. I'm sure the increased lumens, finer resolution of both the 4K chips and better lens will be obvious but I don't think it would be substantial enough except on the largest of home theater screens to make it a slam dunk over the RS600, and at that price.  Perhaps lasers will be able to truly allow HDR to 'shine' through over incandescent sources which would certainly give it another big plus over all other 4K/eshift lamp based pjs.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on November 17, 2016, 11:44:03 AM
I think the law of diminishing returns will raise its head, the RS600 is so good, that despite what laser, true 4K, and a top of the line lens brings in, that most will not find the improvements enough to pony up the difference in cost. I'm sure the increased lumens, finer resolution of both the 4K chips and better lens will be obvious but I don't think it would be substantial enough except on the largest of home theater screens to make it a slam dunk over the RS600, and at that price.  Perhaps lasers will be able to truly allow HDR to 'shine' through over incandescent sources which would certainly give it another big plus over all other 4K/eshift lamp based pjs.

With anything that's cutting edge, it will cost disproportionately more.  I think it will look outstanding on a smaller screen, where one can crank the iris way down and get OLED like contrast. Much as I love my RS600, this is in another league. But, you need $35K !! 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jlanzy on November 17, 2016, 01:01:21 PM
........can crank the iris way down and get OLED like contrast. Much as I love my RS600, this is in another league. But, you need $35K !!

 :'(

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 18, 2016, 05:35:58 AM
The image from the RS4500 was that good and everybody will want it. Now being able to afford it is another matter.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on November 18, 2016, 06:12:09 AM
I think the law of diminishing returns will raise its head, the RS600 is so good, that despite what laser, true 4K, and a top of the line lens brings in, that most will not find the improvements enough to pony up the difference in cost. I'm sure the increased lumens, finer resolution of both the 4K chips and better lens will be obvious but I don't think it would be substantial enough except on the largest of home theater screens to make it a slam dunk over the RS600, and at that price.  Perhaps lasers will be able to truly allow HDR to 'shine' through over incandescent sources which would certainly give it another big plus over all other 4K/eshift lamp based pjs.

As others are saying, I expect it to be a notable jump in PQ over the RS500/600 at any screen size.  The lens will be superior, new panels, light engine - and some say laser gives a more 'stable' looking image.  I think the HDR will be improved too.  But yeah, if we're talking bang for the buck, it's hard to beat the current RS (especially RS400 and 500 - 600 virtually same performance as 500). 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 18, 2016, 06:41:10 AM
Yep, RS4500 is definitely not bang for the buck. It is, squeeze the most performance out of current technology that you can at the 35K price point. I would love to own one and I do not have a huge screen (9' wide & 0.8 gain).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 18, 2016, 11:00:34 AM
We have made arrangements to have an RS4500 in our new showroom. So those that want to see this amazing projector will be able to come to our show room to see it in action. :)

It will not be available until some time in January, but if you are interested in this projector and want to see it in action, contact us to make arrangements.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lorjam on November 19, 2016, 04:35:06 AM
New show room?  News to me.  Is it in Rochester where the warehouse is located?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 20, 2016, 05:06:39 PM
New show room?  News to me.  Is it in Rochester where the warehouse is located?

Yes, in Rochester. Same building, but different location in the building. We have been remodeling and adding two show rooms. One will be a dedicated room and the other will be a media room.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 21, 2016, 08:16:18 AM
Looks like I'll be taking a little road trip come January!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lorjam on November 23, 2016, 05:40:20 AM
Looks like I'll be taking a little road trip come January!

I'll wait until a bit later in the year.  I used to live in the Syracuse/Auburn area and I need to avoid things like "lake effect" and "snow belt". 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 30, 2016, 02:12:24 PM
I'll wait until a bit later in the year.  I used to live in the Syracuse/Auburn area and I need to avoid things like "lake effect" and "snow belt".

A quick look at the weather forecast should solve that issue. ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 30, 2016, 02:14:28 PM
Mike, do you know any of the specs about the new room the RS4500 will be shown in? I'm curious about the screen material and size of the screen as well as aspect ratio. I really hope something like the ST100 (or another unity gain material) will be used. A nice alternative might be the Elightor 4K material. I've never seen that in person but I'd love to see how it stacks up to a non-AT material.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on December 01, 2016, 08:11:14 AM
Mike, do you know any of the specs about the new room the RS4500 will be shown in? I'm curious about the screen material and size of the screen as well as aspect ratio. I really hope something like the ST100 (or another unity gain material) will be used. A nice alternative might be the Elightor 4K material. I've never seen that in person but I'd love to see how it stacks up to a non-AT material.

14' wide x 19' deep x 10' high room. Two seats. Screen will be AT using V6 fabric. 120" wide 2.35 aspect ratio. Viewing will be 12'. Room will feature Triad speakers in a 7.2.4 setup.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lorjam on December 02, 2016, 05:03:30 AM
A quick look at the weather forecast should solve that issue. ;)

I'm in Florida now and things could change in a hurry before I got there!  :(
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: bmoney on December 02, 2016, 07:28:14 AM
14' wide x 19' deep x 10' high room. Two seats. Screen will be AT using V6 fabric. 120" wide 2.35 aspect ratio. Viewing will be 12'. Room will feature Triad speakers in a 7.2.4 setup.

sounds like a dream room lol...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on December 02, 2016, 09:01:20 AM
sounds like a dream room lol...

Should be a nice room. Will be using Triad Silvers with Silver RotaSat for Atmos.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on December 07, 2016, 11:48:04 AM
JVC has an interesting white paper on the RS4500 -

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/PRESENT/brochure/RS4500_white_paper.pdf
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on December 07, 2016, 11:52:10 AM
Just spoke with JVC regarding the RS4500. Looks like around 4 weeks delay. They are working on the firmware and want to make sure the projector performs the best that it can.

I wish this was right. That would mean they would start shipping on Friday !  :)  More like another 4 weeks.  :(
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on December 09, 2016, 04:47:13 PM
Just sold my RS600.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ellisr63 on December 10, 2016, 08:39:30 AM
Just sold my RS600.
Now what will you do while you are waiting for your new projector...or do you also have multiple projectors like Craig does?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on December 10, 2016, 12:10:36 PM
I have RS45 in family room set up and in storage I have RS20, Marantz VP12S4 and Planar PD7130. I will either just use family room set up with RS45 or move RS45 to dedicated room and move RS20 to family room.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on December 10, 2016, 01:30:44 PM
Wow, Mike...are you getting the RS4500
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on December 10, 2016, 06:34:45 PM
Wow, Mike...are you getting the RS4500

I am leaning that way, but not 100% yet. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on December 21, 2016, 10:00:44 AM
Chief now has the custom mount available to ship. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on December 21, 2016, 10:04:55 AM
Ordered a chief mount for a reviewer that said he will be getting one of these shortly after CES. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on December 21, 2016, 12:09:13 PM
Ordered a chief mount for a reviewer that said he will be getting one of these shortly after CES. :)

Must be one of the first production units, eh ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on December 21, 2016, 05:01:49 PM
Must be one of the first production units, eh ?

I think so. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on December 23, 2016, 07:24:56 AM
Sound and Vision has an article on the RS4500.
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/jvc-unveils-first-thx-certified-4k-projector#8PzJ6UVMyhsqmCU6.97 (http://www.soundandvision.com/content/jvc-unveils-first-thx-certified-4k-projector#8PzJ6UVMyhsqmCU6.97)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on December 23, 2016, 08:50:26 AM
The only big news there is that the RS4500 is now THX certified !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on December 23, 2016, 12:02:35 PM
Yep, that was one of the things that was delaying the shipping, getting everything worked out so that it was THX certified.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on December 30, 2016, 10:08:45 AM
I should be getting hold of one of these shortly after CES. I'm actually on a tight timeline to get the review done as they want it for the May projector issue of Sound and Vision. Here's hoping this thing lives up to the hype!!!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on December 30, 2016, 10:30:18 AM
I should be getting hold of one of these shortly after CES. I'm actually on a tight timeline to get the review done as they want it for the May projector issue of Sound and Vision. Here's hoping this thing lives up to the hype!!!

I'm looking forward to your review. I've sure been enjoying watching stuff on my RS600 lately - both 4K BR and 1080p BR. I'd be interested in a comparison ( even off the record in a PM ).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Ron Jones on December 30, 2016, 11:15:51 AM
I received an email from JVC with an invite to their off-site suite at CES where they say they with be demo'ing the RS4500, calling it the first THX certified native 4K projector.  I expect this to be a production unit (or at least one that has all of the functions actually working, which was not the case at CEDIA back in Sept.).  Unfortunately I won't be at CES, but perhaps Art (Projector Review) will be able to check it out
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on December 30, 2016, 12:04:36 PM
There is a slight chance I might go after all, despite my getting sick last year at CES - for a month afterwards. I swore I wouldn't go this year. But with the RS4500 calling............. ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on December 30, 2016, 02:07:16 PM
Alright, I am going to CES - quick day trip. Hopefully what happens in Vegas ( cold / flu germ wise ) stays in Vegas this time !   
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on December 30, 2016, 04:06:50 PM
I should be getting hold of one of these shortly after CES. I'm actually on a tight timeline to get the review done as they want it for the May projector issue of Sound and Vision. Here's hoping this thing lives up to the hype!!!

What screen will you be using?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on December 31, 2016, 10:55:33 AM
There is a slight chance I might go after all, despite my getting sick last year at CES - for a month afterwards. I swore I wouldn't go this year. But with the RS4500 calling............. ;)

Not slight. You are going. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 01, 2017, 03:50:19 PM
What screen will you be using?

120" diagonal Stewart Studiotek 100 (1.78:1). A bit small for this projector overall but it is what it is. I can't go taller, though I could go wider one day. But I have the biggest screen of all our writers, and arguably the most controlled environment for light (100% light controlled any time of day).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on January 01, 2017, 07:06:28 PM
120" diagonal Stewart Studiotek 100 (1.78:1). A bit small for this projector overall but it is what it is. I can't go taller, though I could go wider one day. But I have the biggest screen of all our writers, and arguably the most controlled environment for light (100% light controlled any time of day).

Awesome!  I hope to take a peek at that combo as it's what I'm considering, although a little larger (6' tall)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 02, 2017, 08:33:12 AM
120" diagonal Stewart Studiotek 100 (1.78:1). A bit small for this projector overall but it is what it is. I can't go taller, though I could go wider one day. But I have the biggest screen of all our writers, and arguably the most controlled environment for light (100% light controlled any time of day).

I'm not sure that your screen is all that small for this projector. 3000 lumens always looks bright on paper. But, calibrate it, close the manual iris down for best native contrast, engage the color filter watching 4K UHD Blu Rays, and use 1/3 or 2/3rds power, and it seems to me to be on par brightness wise with the RS600. But with a killer lans and native 4K ( among other things ). 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 02, 2017, 08:55:56 AM
I'm not sure that your screen is all that small for this projector. 3000 lumens always looks bright on paper. But, calibrate it, close the manual iris down for best native contrast, engage the color filter watching 4K UHD Blu Rays, and use 1/3 or 2/3rds power, and it seems to me to be on par brightness wise with the RS600. But with a killer lans and native 4K ( among other things ).

That's what I'm hoping for. With the 600 I have the projector in low lamp with the iris one click away from being stopped all the way down. With the 4500 I'm hoping I can run low laser with the iris all the way stopped down and achieve the same brightness with no issue. Same for when I'm running the filter for WCG. It should also make it where I can achieve a reasonable brightness for HDR without going into a high mode, hopefully med power with an aggressive iris, but we'll see.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 02, 2017, 09:39:56 AM
How many foot lamberts are you getting Kris ? On my 122" 1.78:1 Cima Neve, I'm currently at -6 or 7 clicks on my iris ( and auto 1 ) which seems just right brightness wise with Blu Ray. With 280 or so hours on the lamp, I'm around 15 foot lamberts with those settings. I was originally around 18 foot lamberts at -8 / auto 1 with a brand new lamp. If I can get an RS4500, I might be happy with -15 clicks on 2/3rd's power.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 02, 2017, 10:57:21 AM
Sure hope they have a full production unit with the bugs worked out next week at CES !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 02, 2017, 02:16:22 PM
How many foot lamberts are you getting Kris ? On my 122" 1.78:1 Cima Neve, I'm currently at -6 or 7 clicks on my iris ( and auto 1 ) which seems just right brightness wise with Blu Ray. With 280 or so hours on the lamp, I'm around 15 foot lamberts with those settings. I was originally around 18 foot lamberts at -8 / auto 1 with a brand new lamp. If I can get an RS4500, I might be happy with -15 clicks on 2/3rd's power.

With one click away from max iris closed I am at about 16-17 fL. If I go that one extra click it drops to like 9! Eesh! My lamp has close to 500 hours now I think, I'd have to look. Rock solid light engine so far. I've actually been thinking about going through and doing a full touch up on all my video calibrations but with the 4500 coming soon and some work travel in between then and now, seems like a lot of work for what would amount to maybe watching 2-3 movies before I'm installing the 4500.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 03, 2017, 08:44:57 AM
I am really interested to see what HDR looks like on a screen like Kris's, when using the RS4500.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 03, 2017, 02:52:36 PM
I am really interested to see what HDR looks like on a screen like Kris's, when using the RS4500.

I'm only a flight away Mike!  :P
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 03, 2017, 07:25:44 PM
Have to see if it looks better than on the RS600. Might depend on the actual movie.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on January 03, 2017, 07:34:56 PM
Kris do you have a computer that can output a 4K signal?  If not I might be able to bring something over.  I know that most people here probably don't use their HT as a computer screen (I DO!) but I find it to be the ultimate torture test for sharpness and uniformity.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 04, 2017, 08:31:29 AM
With one click away from max iris closed I am at about 16-17 fL. If I go that one extra click it drops to like 9! Eesh! My lamp has close to 500 hours now I think, I'd have to look. Rock solid light engine so far. I've actually been thinking about going through and doing a full touch up on all my video calibrations but with the 4500 coming soon and some work travel in between then and now, seems like a lot of work for what would amount to maybe watching 2-3 movies before I'm installing the 4500.

Are you sure you are in low lamp ? I can't close the iris down that far and still have 16 - 17 foot lamberts, except maybe in high lamp. But black levels sure look good. I'm interested to see what dynamic laser dimming brings to the party !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 04, 2017, 09:51:25 AM
RS4500's shipping to us in two weeks. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Tom Bley on January 04, 2017, 11:56:24 AM
Nice!  Did you buy one, Mike?  8)  Craig Peer did, didn't he?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 04, 2017, 12:21:30 PM
Nice!  Did you buy one, Mike?  8)  Craig Peer did, didn't he?

Can't really buy one until they exist.  ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Tom Bley on January 04, 2017, 12:36:55 PM
Can't really buy one until they exist.  ;)

I thought you pre-ordered one for yourself?  Anyway, here they come!  I'd be interested in a comparison between it and the current RS-500/600.  :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 04, 2017, 01:22:04 PM
I thought you pre-ordered one for yourself?  Anyway, here they come!  I'd be interested in a comparison between it and the current RS-500/600.  :)

Still hope I can do that. Maybe I will know more after tomorrow !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 04, 2017, 03:37:11 PM
Still hope I can do that. Maybe I will know more after tomorrow !

Keep us updated. I want all the nitty gritty details. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 04, 2017, 03:49:33 PM
You'll get them here - Friday. I'm sure I'll be too tired when I get home tomorrow.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 05, 2017, 03:04:38 PM
Kris do you have a computer that can output a 4K signal?  If not I might be able to bring something over.  I know that most people here probably don't use their HT as a computer screen (I DO!) but I find it to be the ultimate torture test for sharpness and uniformity.

Not sure if mine does or not, my laptop has a 4K screen though. Where are you located?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 05, 2017, 03:05:10 PM
Are you sure you are in low lamp ? I can't close the iris down that far and still have 16 - 17 foot lamberts, except maybe in high lamp. But black levels sure look good. I'm interested to see what dynamic laser dimming brings to the party !

Definitely in low lamp!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on January 05, 2017, 03:21:43 PM
Not sure if mine does or not, my laptop has a 4K screen though. Where are you located?

Seattle (Fremont to be exact)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 05, 2017, 10:02:26 PM
JVC DLA-RS4500 - Questions asked at CES today -

1.  How much lag in gaming mode?  2 frames  ( under 40ms )

2.  What features are disabled in gaming mode? None other than keystone

3. Lumen output without DCI filter? 3000 lumens before calibration

4.  Lumen output with DCI filter? Wait for Kris Deering’s Sound and Vision magazine review.

5.  Native contrast? JVC is not publishing native contrast. Wait for Kris Deering’s Sound and Vision magazine review.

6.  Auto calibration? If so, what meters? Same as the RS400 / 500 / 600 series. JVC sees this projector as being more suitable for a professional calibration.

7.  Noise level? 25 db in low power ( about 4 db more than an RS500 / 600 in low lamp ). It sounded pretty quiet to me in high brightness, personally. 

8.  Any type of dynamic dimming with HDR? Yes – using the laser.

9.  Ship date to dealers? End of Jan.

The RS4500 was being shown on a 10' wide 16:9 StudioTek 130 G3 screen, and HDR looked pretty damn good. The ansi contrast is higher on this projector than current JVC's, and it really had amazing depth of field and a crisp look to the picture.  :)  Now I'm going to bed.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 06, 2017, 06:46:17 AM
Wow, no pressure on me huh???
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: bmoney on January 06, 2017, 07:25:12 AM
Wow, no pressure on me huh???

well you wanna be a big deal....lol
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 06, 2017, 08:48:05 AM
Wow, no pressure on me huh???

We love you, you are the man. And we listen to the man.  ;D

Seriously, they just want a reputable reviewer to state the facts. Ansi contrast is supposed to be much higher on this projector. They had the THX certified unit at CES, and the 4K Blu Ray " Warcraft " they were playing looked really crisp, clear, and had great depth of field. Actual native contrast was impossible to judge in that flawed Venetian suite, with a movie I've never seen with HDR ( which raises black levels to begin with as far as I've experienced ).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 06, 2017, 09:19:29 AM
The screen size at CES was limited to 10' wide, not because of the projector, but because the freight elevator is only so large. In other words JVC could not fit a 12' wide screen into the elevator.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 06, 2017, 09:42:31 AM
It's really hard to judge the contrast on the RS4500 in a hotel room with limited source material. There wasn't anything that would even show a fade to black scene. And even though they had black material around the screen, the room is white. That said, Warcraft in 4K sure looked sharp and clear from an Oppo 203. I'd like to see 4K with my HDR - SDR BT.2020 conversion on it instead of HDR, to really see what's what. HDR raises black levels unacceptably on my RS600. I'm guessing I'd feel the same way about HDR with an RS4500 too.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 07, 2017, 09:41:27 AM
UPDATE: Hi everyone, Well I am pleased to report that JVC have provided us with the answers we seek. And I am very glad to report it's all good! :)

Salient info as per follows:
Quote
• There are no production JVC Z1/RS4500 projectors available yet, and what you have seen so-far at all venues are pre-production units hand built for demonstration.

• None of them conform to the full advertised release specification.

• JVC will not be shipping production units until they are satisfied that they perform fully to the advertised specifications.

• It is difficult to predict the timing of engineering to a release-state product.

• NO production units have been released for review or testing, so the test results published by the German magazine [AudioVision] can only be based on pre-production hardware/firmware like that you have seen, and will therefore be inaccurate. There are also other considerations like the source equipment and media that will have had an impact on their tests.

So, that’s absolutely brilliant news as far as I and my company is concerned, but not just us, we have a number of business associates, who reacted the same way as us and the other folk on here to these first 'official' published measurements, and like us, have sizeable preorders for the JVC DLA-RS4500/Z1… And so, we would all like to thank both JVC and Habitech the UK’s distributor for the RS4500/Z1 for their time, assistance, and most importantly for so promptly providing the answers we have all been need and hence much needed clarity with respect to the circumstances; and particularly with respect to confirming that these initial published and supposedly official measurements by the German AV magazine AudioVision are inaccurate, are not representative of the final product, and hence should be disregarded entirely.

Further to this, Habitech the UK’s distributor for the RS4500/Z1 have also been kind enough to  confirm THIS:
Quote
We have the first production units being delivered at the end of January 2017. As the unit here [at CES] is pre-production, my suggestion is that you come along to our showroom to see the finished article, rather than draw any conclusion from what you have seen so-far
Where suffice to say this is precisely what I will be doing and so thank you kindly for the invitation :)

Further to this, the next event of importance as far as we are concerned will be the confirmed measurements of actual production units with launch firmware by the likes of Kris, where I am looking forward to reading his (and others') confirmation that the projector does indeed deliver the performance that JVC has said it will, namely: “fully to the advertised specifications” :)

And I'm also very much looking forward to Ekki's/Cine4Home's shoot-out as well, to say the least! :)

OK Mike and Craig  you can say “I told you so!” now ;) :D
.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 07, 2017, 09:58:11 AM
" Good things come to those who wait ". I hate waiting ! Then again, we are waiting for a projector that you could watch for 10 years without it losing significant brightness. Ironic, eh?

Thanks Nigel ! And sorry I missed you at CES.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 07, 2017, 10:01:03 AM
Thanks for the update. I figured you would feel better after this meeting. :) Granted if anyone was expecting the JVC to compete all out lumens wise to the VW5000, they are going to be disappointed, but then it was never claimed to try and reach that result. It sounds like, while the RS4500 at CES was closer to production than what was shown at CEDIA, the room was a lot worse. And room makes a big difference. The early pre production unit shown at CEDIA looked very good and I knew that the production unit would be even better. That has been the case pretty much every year.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 07, 2017, 10:15:00 AM
" Good things come to those who wait ". I hate waiting ! Then again, we are waiting for a projector that you could watch for 10 years without it losing significant brightness. Ironic, eh? Thanks Nigel ! And sorry I missed you at CES.
Indeed. We all know about not paying attention to the performance of pre-production units leading up to a product release but the thing that really got the cat amongst the pigeons here was a 'professional' AV magazine publishing what was reportedly the first official review with measurements a production unit seemingly with JVC's authorization and approval... How is that even possible? :o

Anyway, fortunately the wait is nearly over! Thank God! I'm exhausted!

I think my situation is being exacerbated by the fact that I am definitely starting to suffer withdrawal symptoms with respect to my addiction to high quality AV... And getting around CES is driving me nuts... So I figure whilst I am here I should definitely go check out a DOLBY CINEMA and I just looked and there is in fact one here in Las Vegas with all the bells and whistles… They are showing the new Underworld movie… So here are my options: 2 hours spent in queues at CES or 2 hours spent staring at Kate Beckinsale’s rear end tightly jammed into black latex in Dolby Vision HDR with decent WCG color and up to 100nits/30fL lumens and 1,000,000:1 contrast … Mmmm, let me see, which should I choose? :D
.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 07, 2017, 11:02:31 AM
Indeed. We all know about not paying attention to the performance of pre-production units leading up to a product release but the thing that really got the cat amongst the pigeons here was a 'professional' AV magazine publishing what was reportedly the first official review with measurements a production unit seemingly with JVC's authorization and approval... How is that even possible? :o

Anyway, fortunately the wait is nearly over! Thank God! I'm exhausted!

I think my situation is being exacerbated by the fact that I am definitely starting to suffer withdrawal symptoms with respect to my addiction to high quality AV... And getting around CES is driving me nuts... So I figure whilst I am here I should definitely go check out a DOLBY CINEMA and I just looked and there is in fact one here in Las Vegas with all the bells and whistles… They are showing the new Underworld movie… So here are my options: 2 hours spent in queues at CES or 2 hours spent staring at Kate Beckinsale’s rear end tightly jammed into black latex in Dolby Vision HDR with decent WCG color and up to 100nits/30fL lumens and 1,000,000:1 contrast … Mmmm, let me see, which should I choose? :D
.

I sold my RS600 a lot quicker than I expected. While I have other projectors here, none of them are 4K. My Oppo arrives Tuesday, but it will be a few more weeks before I know which projector I go with. Right now the leading candidates are RS4500 and RS620. After having an RS600 in my dedicated room, the RS45 (which really throws a good image) is a disappointment.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 07, 2017, 12:52:35 PM
I sold my RS600 a lot quicker than I expected. While I have other projectors here, none of them are 4K. My Oppo arrives Tuesday, but it will be a few more weeks before I know which projector I go with. Right now the leading candidates are RS4500 and RS620. After having an RS600 in my dedicated room, the RS45 (which really throws a good image) is a disappointment.
That's interesting... I did not know you were shopping for a projector Mike :)

Like you I am also interested in both the RS4500 and RS620; and I was going to check out the RS620 here at CES but I now have limited time so I'm going to go check out the DOLBY CINEMA here (I've not been to one before as there aren't any in the UK) and I will scrutinize the RS620 when I go to view what will finally be an actual production unit of the RS4500 in a couple of week's time at the UK office... Where I am expecting the RS620 to look nothing short of superb... So like you I am also still making up my mind between these two :)
       
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 08, 2017, 06:38:32 AM
Unless I am mistaken JVC's pre-existing track record to date with respect to all of its projectors has been such that the published technical performance figures very closely mirror the reality and post-calibration at that... which can't be said of all brands... And so, it should be not unrealistic to expect close to 3,000 Lumens calibrated and not: '3,000-Lumens-achieved-by-incorrectly-boosting-the-grey-scale-blue-or-green-components-to-achieve-falsely-higher-brightness-and-hence-not-really-3,000-lumens'. Consequently, given JVC have stated they will be delivering the published specs (where I have noted that they have stopped using the word 'forecast' to us now where that included contrast figures) we are therefore expecting 3,000 lumens with pretty accurately and correctly balanced greyscale out of the box and not with the blue component for instance jacked up by 30-40% to artificially boost the brightness figure... This would not be in keeping with JVC's track record to date and we therefore do not think it would be appropriate for JVC to suddenly start doing that kind of thing now, given that they have not done so previously.

So when I said we are looking forward to confirmation with respect to which units JVC finally acknowledge are indeed production units, this will be what we are expecting and hoping for and with good reason. Where for example, 2,600 lumens post calibration would not qualify, nor if the greyscale is significantly out of whack out of the box.

Where all we want is what has been promised. Nothing more. Nothing less. I do not consider this to be unreasonable.

Wherein, I cannot disagree with what Cine4Home has said regarding the fact that it would appear that all that has in fact been promised via the published data (as opposed to forecast to us previously) is 3,000 lumens... So we want and are expecting 3,000 lumens please... Where it is probably worth mentioning that for the same reasons this is what all of our customers are expecting and we don't want to let them down for obvious reasons.

And where I think it is also worth mentioning that I am of the view that with the projector delivering the promised 3,000 lumens, given this would obviously be with the iris wide open, this would allow at least some headroom for the iris to be closed down a bit and thereby boost the contrast and enhance the black floor and thereby help to offset what we are all expecting will unfortunately be a lower than forecast ON/OFF contrast performance... Where if the brightness is lower than promised (and forecast) then this double whammy would negate the ability to do this.

That said, because I always like to remain impartial, I would also like to point out that it would not be fair or realistic to expect everything to be perfect at launch with the initial launch firmware... where it is common and to be expected for there to be at least some technical bugs, issues, and even malfunctions, but which can be subsequently resolved via firmware updates. That said, as some others have already pointed out there are limits with respect to what can be achieved via firmware updates. But fortunately it's not long to wait now until we will be obtaining the necessary confirmation as to what's what... The wait is going to be painful though! ;) :)
.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 08, 2017, 11:48:24 AM
Unless I am mistaken JVC's pre-existing track record to date with respect to all of its projectors has been such that the published technical performance figures very closely mirror the reality and post-calibration at that... which can't be said of all brands... And so, it should be not unrealistic to expect close to 3,000 Lumens calibrated and not: '3,000-Lumens-achieved-by-incorrectly-boosting-the-grey-scale-blue-or-green-components-to-achieve-falsely-higher-brightness-and-hence-not-really-3,000-lumens'. Consequently, given JVC have stated they will be delivering the published specs (where I have noted that they have stopped using the word 'forecast' to us now where that included contrast figures) we are therefore expecting 3,000 lumens with pretty accurately and correctly balanced greyscale out of the box and not with the blue component for instance jacked up by 30-40% to artificially boost the brightness figure... This would not be in keeping with JVC's track record to date and we therefore do not think it would be appropriate for JVC to suddenly start doing that kind of thing now, given that they have not done so previously.

So when I said we are looking forward to confirmation with respect to which units JVC finally acknowledge are indeed production units, this will be what we are expecting and hoping for and with good reason. Where for example, 2,600 lumens post calibration would not qualify, nor if the greyscale is significantly out of whack out of the box.

Where all we want is what has been promised. Nothing more. Nothing less. I do not consider this to be unreasonable.

Wherein, I cannot disagree with what Cine4Home has said regarding the fact that it would appear that all that has in fact been promised via the published data (as opposed to forecast to us previously) is 3,000 lumens... So we want and are expecting 3,000 lumens please... Where it is probably worth mentioning that for the same reasons this is what all of our customers are expecting and we don't want to let them down for obvious reasons.

And where I think it is also worth mentioning that I am of the view that with the projector delivering the promised 3,000 lumens, given this would obviously be with the iris wide open, this would allow at least some headroom for the iris to be closed down a bit and thereby boost the contrast and enhance the black floor and thereby help to offset what we are all expecting will unfortunately be a lower than forecast ON/OFF contrast performance... Where if the brightness is lower than promised (and forecast) then this double whammy would negate the ability to do this.

That said, because I always like to remain impartial, I would also like to point out that it would not be fair or realistic to expect everything to be perfect at launch with the initial launch firmware... where it is common and to be expected for there to be at least some technical bugs, issues, and even malfunctions, but which can be subsequently resolved via firmware updates. That said, as some others have already pointed out there are limits with respect to what can be achieved via firmware updates. But fortunately it's not long to wait now until we will be obtaining the necessary confirmation as to what's what... The wait is going to be painful though! ;) :)
.

Like other projector manufacturers, JVC lists max brightness in their specs, but unlike other manufacturers, JVC projectors usually only lose 10% to 15% of their max light output when calibrated. So I expect the RS4500 to reach 3,000 lumens max and 10% to 15% less when calibrated to Rec709.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 08, 2017, 05:02:28 PM
My review unit will ship this week and I will be knee deep in measurements and such next weekend.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 08, 2017, 05:07:17 PM
My review unit will ship this week and I will be knee deep in measurements and such next weekend.

Sounds great! I can't wait to hear what you think. Right now you have an X750, right? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the differences in picture quality, HDR performance and anything in general that sticks out between these models.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 09, 2017, 06:24:57 PM
RS4500 THX press release.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 09, 2017, 07:52:41 PM
My review unit will ship this week and I will be knee deep in measurements and such next weekend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJbmB9k2Y88 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJbmB9k2Y88)

At last the waiting will be over!!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D  :D :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 09, 2017, 08:00:03 PM
Sounds great! I can't wait to hear what you think. Right now you have an X750, right? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the differences in picture quality, HDR performance and anything in general that sticks out between these models.
^^^^ +1 what he said! :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 10, 2017, 05:37:27 AM
A lot of people are looking forward to Kris's hands on review. Not just the numbers, I am also very interested in his thoughts on the image, especially with HDR on his size screen.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 10, 2017, 07:22:20 AM
A lot of people are looking forward to Kris's hands on review. Not just the numbers, I am also very interested in his thoughts on the image, especially with HDR on his size screen.
What is Kris's screen size? :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on January 10, 2017, 07:36:01 AM
I believe Kris has a 120" 1:78 Stewart ST100.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 10, 2017, 10:47:38 AM
I believe Kris has a 120" 1:78 Stewart ST100.

Correct.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 10, 2017, 12:39:55 PM
I have confirmed, the dynamic dimming feature was not shown Thursday, Friday or Saturday at CES. Laser dynamic dimming will make a difference and not just talking with fades to black.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 10, 2017, 05:57:37 PM
I have confirmed, the dynamic dimming feature was not shown Thursday, Friday or Saturday at CES. Laser dynamic dimming will make a difference and not just talking with fades to black.

Do you know if there is also a functioning mechanical iris like the current models in tandem with the laser modulation?

Or is the mechanical iris fixed, but adjustable as an additional fine tune control over brightness only, such as -10 for hitting 16fl precisely, then the laser dimming is the only 'auto iris' type function after that point?

If no mechanical auto iris, then contrast will not increase the lower the APL content is projected. That would be a slight shame.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 10, 2017, 07:13:08 PM
I have confirmed, the dynamic dimming feature was not shown Thursday, Friday or Saturday at CES. Laser dynamic dimming will make a difference and not just talking with fades to black.

Will this be available day 1 on production units when they arrive in the US?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 10, 2017, 07:17:11 PM
Do you know if there is also a functioning mechanical iris like the current models in tandem with the laser modulation?

Or is the mechanical iris fixed, but adjustable as an additional fine tune control over brightness only, such as -10 for hitting 16fl precisely, then the laser dimming is the only 'auto iris' type function after that point?

If no mechanical auto iris, then contrast will not increase the lower the APL content is projected. That would be a slight shame.

No dynamic mechanical iris. Only a fixed adjustable iris for light output. You have three laser output settings and 15/16 iris adjustments in each laser output mode.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 10, 2017, 07:18:36 PM
Will this be available day 1 on production units when they arrive in the US?

Yes, it is part of the final firmware, but like the VW5000, I am sure that the RS4500 will get additional firmware updates to improve the projector, after shipping to owners.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 11, 2017, 07:17:22 AM
I have confirmed, the dynamic dimming feature was not shown Thursday, Friday or Saturday at CES. Laser dynamic dimming will make a difference and not just talking with fades to black.
This is great news Mike! Thank you. :)

There's been quite a lot of conflicting information about this new projector on the various forums, and even some early AV magazine reviews (!) so I personally have mentally disregarded all of that and I am now simply waiting for Kris' review, including his what we can be absolutely sure will be accurate and reliable measurements of what we know for sure is the final production unit (go on say it SEEGS108 ;)), whereas the same cannot be said for sure about absolutely all other reported performance information to date, including not even just now at CES, and would like to helpfully recommend to anyone else who is concerned about things that they have read about this projector, that they might like to do so too... There's a ludicrous amount of conflicting information out there at the moment... It's not long to wait now, only a matter of days! Where even my own zero level of patience can extend to that! ;) :D

Yes, it is part of the final firmware, but like the VW5000, I am sure that the RS4500 will get additional firmware updates to improve the projector, after shipping to owners.
I alluded to this on another forum Mike, and you are absolutely correct here... It's worth mentioning that the SONY 5000ES took about 9 months worth of firmware updates to resolve all the issues at launch, and with this kind of early generation laser projection technology it should be expected that not everything will be absolutely perfect at launch, and there will be further enhancements to come via firmware updates. So excellent point Mike :)
.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 11, 2017, 07:20:05 AM
I believe Kris has a 120" 1:78 Stewart ST100.
Thanks David. That's a great screen to be reviewing this projector. Perfect. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 11, 2017, 08:15:06 AM
This is great news Mike! Thank you. :)

There's been quite a lot of conflicting information about this new projector on the various forums, and even some early AV magazine reviews (!) so I personally have mentally disregarded all of that and I am now simply waiting for Kris' review, including his what we can be absolutely sure will be accurate and reliable measurements of what we know for sure is the final production unit (go on say it SEEGS108 ;)), whereas the same cannot be said for sure about absolutely all other reported performance information to date, including not even just now at CES, and would like to helpfully recommend to anyone else who is concerned about things that they have read about this projector, that they might like to do so too... There's a ludicrous amount of conflicting information out there at the moment... It's not long to wait now, only a matter of days! Where even my own zero level of patience can extend to that! ;) :D
I alluded to this on another forum Mike, and you are absolutely correct here... It's worth mentioning that the SONY 5000ES took about 9 months worth of firmware updates to resolve all the issues at launch, and with this kind of early generation laser projection technology it should be expected that not everything will be absolutely perfect at launch, and there will be further enhancements to come via firmware updates. So excellent point Mike :)
.

Maybe competitors are spreading fake news ! There are just too many pre - production models floating around. JVC should have spray painted " Pre - production " on the case, so there was no mistaking them for final production models!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 11, 2017, 02:26:42 PM
I agree there's too much conflicting information out there at the moment and I think certain people have drawn conclusions too soon. I've noticed that some people seem happy to draw conclusions before full production units without beta firmware on them ship. They seem to want the Z1 to be dead in the water before it even gets a chance to look as good as it can. Mike makes a good point and references the 5000ES where it was far less refined in image quality at launch compared to right now. IF native contrast performance on these projectors is better than the ~9000:1 as mentioned in that review of a preproduction unit, then you can rest assured it can reach the 5000ES in most areas of performance in future firmware updates. The exception being absolute brightness. BUT after it was announced at CEDIA we never thought it was going to be as bright as the 5000ES in a color matched mode so this aspect should NOT be a disappointment to anyone. For those of us (including me) who don't have a "huge" screen, the brightness capabilities of the Z1 should be adequate.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 12, 2017, 09:01:13 AM
Maybe competitors are spreading fake news ! There are just too many pre - production models floating around. JVC should have spray painted " Pre - production " on the case, so there was no mistaking them for final production models!
I think you may be onto something there Craig, I could have sworn I saw "SPONSORED BY SONY" at the bottom of that German AV Magazine review of the JVC RS4500/Z1!  ;) ::) ;D

I agree there's too much conflicting information out there at the moment and I think certain people have drawn conclusions too soon...
IMO everything was fine until that German AV magazine review... That was the trigger here... And I have to say you can hardly blame everyone for reacting to that the way everyone did, what with it having the appearance of being a professional review in an AV magazine with lab data and thereby bona fide information relating to production units and authorised and approved by JVC... Where IMO magazine reviews should never be done with respect to a pre-production unit of any product in any industry, or at the very least make it extremely clear at the top of the 'review' that it's pre-production and hence not accurately representative of the finished product! Totally irresponsible if you ask me, but that's just my opinion :-\

Mike, you are a gentleman with respect to your glass-half-full perspective of the review, but IMO that is quite simply not a good review, but which is now understandable now that the whistle has been blown regarding it being a pre-production unit

For those of us (including me) who don't have a "huge" screen, the brightness capabilities of the Z1 should be adequate.
Indeed :D

But playing Devil's Advocate here, given we are talking a whopping $35,000 is "ADEQUATE" really OK? Or would 'GOOD', 'VERY GOOD' or 'EXCELLENT' be more appropriate given the price tag?  :-\

I can't answer that because IMO this is going to boil down to personal preference, and some peoples' personal preference might prefer the video performance of the new JVC RS620/9500 on 'non-huge' screens given it offers 2,000 lumens plus 160,000:1 native contrast and 1,600,000:1 dynamic contrast... and save $25,000 in the process ;) Who knows?  :)

We were kind of hoping to be able to use the RS4500/Z1 projector for a very wide range of applications, including some outside-the-box-extraordinary-by-definition-type-applications involving "huge" 7 metre / 23 feet wide screens and the like, but we are now thinking that other possible solutions might be the better choice for these, such as for example using the new RS620/X9500, which is why I am very interested to see a side-by-side comparison versus the RS4500/Z1... I will be having many opportunities to see precisely this within the next few weeks or so, where I will be sure to post on here our findings, since I am sure others might find the comparison of interest... although we may not be the first to carry out such a direct comparison...

But right now all I am thinking about is Kris' review... C'mon, c'mon! :P
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 12, 2017, 09:52:11 AM
I think you may be onto something there Craig, I could have sworn I saw "SPONSORED BY SONY" at the bottom of that German AV Magazine review of the JVC RS4500/Z1!  ;) ::) ;D
IMO everything was fine until that German AV magazine review... That was the trigger here... And I have to say you can hardly blame everyone for reacting to that the way everyone did, what with it having the appearance of being a professional review in an AV magazine with lab data and thereby bona fide information relating to production units and authorised and approved by JVC... Where IMO magazine reviews should never be done with respect to a pre-production unit of any product in any industry, or at the very least make it extremely clear at the top of the 'review' that it's pre-production and hence not accurately representative of the finished product! Totally irresponsible if you ask me, but that's just my opinion :-\

Mike, you are a gentleman with respect to your glass-half-full perspective of the review, but IMO that is quite simply not a good review, but which is now understandable now that the whistle has been blown regarding it being a pre-production unit
Indeed :D

But playing Devil's Advocate here, given we are talking a whopping $35,000 is "ADEQUATE" really OK? Or would 'GOOD', 'VERY GOOD' or 'EXCELLENT' be more appropriate given the price tag?  :-\

I can't answer that because IMO this is going to boil down to personal preference, and some peoples' personal preference might prefer the video performance of the new JVC RS620/9500 on 'non-huge' screens and save $25,000 in the process...  ;) Who knows?  :)

We were kind of hoping to be able to use the RS4500/Z1 projector for a very wide range of applications, including some outside-the-box-extraordinary-by-definition-type-applications involving "huge" 7 metre / 23 feet wide screens and the like, but we are now thinking that other possible solutions might be the better choice for these, such as for example using the new RS620/X9500, which is why I am very interested to see a side-by-side comparison versus the RS4500/Z1... I will be having many opportunities to see precisely this within the next few weeks or so, where I will be sure to post on here our findings, since I am sure others might find the comparison of interest... although we may not be the first to carry out such a direct comparison...

But right now all I am thinking about is Kris' review... C'mon, c'mon! :P

Having owned a Sim Lumis - also a $ 35K projector, I can tell you that the Lumis wasn't any brighter than the the RS4500. But, no lamp dimming is a big plus in my book, as is the sharpness and clarity of a super good lens.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 12, 2017, 09:56:54 AM
Having owned a Sim Lumis - also a $ 35K projector, I can tell you that the Lumis wasn't any brighter than the the RS4500. But, no lamp dimming is a big plus in my book, as is the sharpness and clarity of a super good lens.
Agreed :)

That said, in my opinion, but just my opinion, as long as you follow the 70/30 rule (as recommended by THX) lamps are not really a problem, and some might consider this to be the lesser evil as compared with a significant drop in contrast and raising of the black floor... whereas others might consider the lamp dimming to be the greater evil... so like I said it's all down to personal preference ;)

As far as I am concerned I am afraid that JVC's unrivalled contrast performance of its other projectors has made me spoilt for choice with respect to anything less! And hence this has become my reference standard... Where we all know that I am not the only person to be thinking this... Which is why it was music to my ears to hear confirmation from Mike that with respect to the unit being demoed at CES this was not using the dynamic laser dimming that should mean comparatively significantly improved black floor with the production units of the RS4500/Z1 :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 12, 2017, 10:43:22 AM
Something to keep in mind. That review did not state 60% light loss with DCI P3 filter in place. That was from another person calculating it from the data provided. The guy that wrote the review even stated that figure was not correct. That it was calculated incorrectly. As for me being more half full, that is because I have more information on the subject than those that are arguing it out. I just can't post it. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 12, 2017, 11:47:13 AM
Agreed :)

That said, in my opinion, but just my opinion, as long as you follow the 70/30 rule (as recommended by THX) lamps are not really a problem, and some might consider this to be the lesser evil as compared with a significant drop in contrast and raising of the black floor... whereas others might consider the lamp dimming to be the greater evil... so like I said it's all down to personal preference ;)

As far as I am concerned I am afraid that JVC's unrivalled contrast performance of its other projectors has made me spoilt for choice with respect to anything less! And hence this has become my reference standard... Where we all know that I am not the only person to be thinking this... Which is why it was music to my ears to hear confirmation from Mike that with respect to the unit being demoed at CES this was not using the dynamic laser dimming that should mean comparatively significantly improved black floor with the production units of the RS4500/Z1 :)

True, once you've seen what an RS600 can do, it's hard to go back. I watch my Sony VW600 with low(er) contrast source material now. Like HDTV, and select movies. 

Well, at least Kris will measure contrast and light output with the manual iris open and closed. Not sure why the German review only measured with it open. Some screwy reviews floating around out there.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on January 12, 2017, 12:40:39 PM
One can buy a lot of lamps for the increased cost of a laser version :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 12, 2017, 01:13:24 PM
One can buy a lot of lamps for the increased cost of a laser version :)

True, but I'm guessing that massive lens is a big part of the cost.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 12, 2017, 04:38:27 PM
Well I have decided. An RS4500 will be headed my way. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Tom Bley on January 12, 2017, 05:40:14 PM
Well I have decided. An RS4500 will be headed my way. :)

I had a feeling when you announced the RS600 was for sale you would be getting one.   ;) 8)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 12, 2017, 06:59:08 PM
I had a feeling when you announced the RS600 was for sale you would be getting one.   ;) 8)

It was either going to be the RS620 or the RS4500. With HDR, I decided to go for the brightness of the RS4500. Plus not having to worry about how I use it, as in turn on and off any time I want. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 13, 2017, 06:02:23 AM
Well I have decided. An RS4500 will be headed my way. :)

Awesome!! I'm sure the decision to choose the RS4500 over the 620 was a difficult one.... :P
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 13, 2017, 07:23:07 AM
Awesome!! I'm sure the decision to choose the RS4500 over the 620 was a difficult one.... :P

Well you do get to use the dynamic dimming with HDR content. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 13, 2017, 08:05:19 AM
Looks like I'm on board too.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 13, 2017, 11:47:42 AM
Owners manual - http://www33.jvckenwood.com/pdfs/B5A-2008-09.pdf
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 13, 2017, 12:24:35 PM
Well you do get to use the dynamic dimming with HDR content. :)

That's great to hear. I wonder why JVC chose to include this on the RS4500 and not the eshift units.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 14, 2017, 05:14:25 PM
Hearing nice info on the RS4500, performance wise. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 15, 2017, 05:01:25 AM
Hearing nice info on the RS4500, performance wise. :)
What date will Kris be posting his full review on Sound & Vision's website? :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 15, 2017, 05:59:57 AM
What date will Kris be posting his full review on Sound & Vision's website? :)

I believe he said, May issue.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 15, 2017, 06:29:51 AM
I believe he said, May issue.
Blimey, MAY edition Sound & Vision?! I was hoping that Kris’ review would be the first reliable information confirming real world performance figures… However, even though the MAY edition probably comes out in APRIL that’s one hell of a long wait!  :-[

I will have opportunity to take accurate measurements way before that within the next few weeks or at the latest upon my return from ISE 2017  ;)

It will still be good to read Kris’ review when it does finally appear, but that’s too late for our needs unfortunately...  :-\
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on January 15, 2017, 08:31:00 AM
I know it's beyond Kris' control, but that is something I never liked about Sound and Vision - their projector reviews come late.  Goes without saying, but it would really help a potential customer to get that review the sooner the better.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 15, 2017, 08:41:59 AM
I've started in on the review. Got the projector setup yesterday for initial measurements and check out. Today I will be doing more thorough measurements for light output and contrast post calibration. Just some early observations:

Does not have the same scaling artifacts as the Sony 4K line with 1080p resolution patterns, they actually look like they should

The new lens is exceptional and has eliminated one of the common complaints I've seen with JVCs

The 4500 does not suffer from the clipping issues near black. With brightness at zero black is clipped appropriately at digital 16 and digital 17 is clearly resolved. This is out of the box, before calibration.

I may share a bit more throughout the process but don't look for too much. I'm not sure when the online review will be posted but I know they are pushing for the May issue of the magazine as that will be projector focused (though I'm not sure what other projectors will be featured in that issue). After I finish my measurements today I will probably chime in to confirm or dispel some of the rumors we've seen in regards to light output and contrast. I can say that the dynamic laser modulation has a PROFOUND influence on perceived contrast and so far has almost zero noticeable artifacts in use.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 15, 2017, 11:09:21 AM
No streaking and no bright corners, nice. Usable dynamic dimming. This is shaping up to be a very nice projector.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 15, 2017, 11:25:11 AM
Thank you Kris! Finally someone with a real production unit with a production firmware on the unit. I'm really glad to see that they've ironed out the kinks with the dynamic laser dimming solution. Supposedly beta versions were quite noticeable when it was in operation. If it's at least as good as the mechanical DI in the eshift units I think JVC has a winner. I noticed that there are two dimming modes like the eshift units. Is it possible to know if both modes force a full fade to black? If so, does one take longer than the other to reach black? Not a huge fan of FFTB as typically speaking, when they come back out of black it tends to look like an artificial gimmick that shouts to me that the image is being manipulated. Maybe JVC's implementation fares better? I haven't seen the 5000ES's implementation, but from what I've read it doesn't work as well as Sony's mechanical DI's and many prefer to keep this feature turned off. So that makes this feature all the more enticing on the JVC.

Awesome to hear the lens is superb. I know you have a frame of reference given you've had an 1100ES there (same lens in the 5000ES) so I'm curious to hear how well you think it compares. Is pixel delineation just as good across the whole image? Also great to hear there aren't the same image artifacts as there on the Sony with regards to scaling. It seems Sony's convergence correction software is what makes most of the artifacts appear on screen. There's a way to disable it in the service menu but you lose convergence correction along the way.

My only pertinent question would be; do you see any of the posterization and banding in the image as all the Sony 4K models exhibit? The former you may need to walk up to your screen to see but the latter should be visible from a seated distance with the right type of content.

As always I can't wait to hear more of your impressions. Thank you for your hard work!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 15, 2017, 11:27:36 AM
I've started in on the review. Got the projector setup yesterday for initial measurements and check out. Today I will be doing more thorough measurements for light output and contrast post calibration. Just some early observations: Does not have the same scaling artifacts as the Sony 4K line with 1080p resolution patterns, they actually look like they should... The new lens is exceptional and has eliminated one of the common complaints I've seen with JVCs... The 4500 does not suffer from the clipping issues near black. With brightness at zero black is clipped appropriately at digital 16 and digital 17 is clearly resolved. This is out of the box, before calibration...
Very interesting! Thanks for this Kris. Brilliant! :)

After I finish my measurements today I will probably chime in to confirm or dispel some of the rumors we've seen in regards to light output and contrast. I can say that the dynamic laser modulation has a PROFOUND influence on perceived contrast and so far has almost zero noticeable artifacts in use.
Yes please! :D
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 15, 2017, 01:11:46 PM
I know ANSI contrast is a bit trickier to measure, but do you plan on including a quick dirty measurement? I'm most curious if ANSI is higher than the eshift units. Given the lens on this projector and the lack of the eshift glass, I'm hoping it's raised a bit.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 15, 2017, 04:03:31 PM
I know ANSI contrast is a bit trickier to measure, but do you plan on including a quick dirty measurement? I'm most curious if ANSI is higher than the eshift units. Given the lens on this projector and the lack of the eshift glass, I'm hoping it's raised a bit.

I expect ANSI to be higher.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 15, 2017, 04:32:24 PM
I expect ANSI to be higher.

Me too. I'm hoping to see 400:1 or more. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 15, 2017, 04:42:40 PM
Me too. I'm hoping to see 400:1 or more. :)

I think the 4500 is going to look more like a DLP, but with great contrast.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 15, 2017, 05:38:07 PM
I think the 4500 is going to look more like a DLP, but with great contrast.

Then this could be the new successor to the Sim Lumis, for DLP guys. With 4K and laser thrown in ! Yowza !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 16, 2017, 12:57:23 AM
Kris, you're killing me man.

Stop enjoying your 4500 and spread the stats brotha!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 16, 2017, 08:27:22 AM
No banding issues so far, but if there is content specific you'd like me to look at I'm all ears.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: scott on January 16, 2017, 08:34:16 AM
Kris, a less technical detail, I'm interested in how loud it is relatively speaking.  My PJ is soffit mounted not far from my head and I'm worried this one will be too loud.  Maybe that's something you can share before the review.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 16, 2017, 08:51:37 AM
No banding issues so far, but if there is content specific you'd like me to look at I'm all ears.

Do you have Lucy on blu-ray? There's a scene at the beginning of the film where the Sony 4K's are exhibiting quite a bit of banding and posterization:

JVC (eshift) vs Sony
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/184542

Here's a close up where I've highlighted the issues:

(Click to see the full resolution image)
(http://i.imgur.com/U5GEDuV.png)
Posterization shown in the top large red box, and banding shown in the bottom two red boxes

This type of banding and posterization happens quite frequently on the Sony 4K's from what I've seen. That shot above shows the issue quite well IMO.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 16, 2017, 09:58:27 AM
Kris, a less technical detail, I'm interested in how loud it is relatively speaking.  My PJ is soffit mounted not far from my head and I'm worried this one will be too loud.  Maybe that's something you can share before the review.

It certainly didn't sound loud even in high brightness mode for HDR at Cedia. They had it out in the open in their private suite, and I made a point of listening to it.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 16, 2017, 10:32:35 AM
I can say that the dynamic laser modulation has a PROFOUND influence on perceived contrast...

Does that imply that NATIVE looks poor?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 16, 2017, 11:16:16 AM
Does that imply that NATIVE looks poor?

I will let Kris answer it, but I am happy camper. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 16, 2017, 01:25:20 PM
I will let Kris answer it, but I am happy camper. :)

Have you got your projector already Mike?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 16, 2017, 01:55:49 PM
Does that imply that NATIVE looks poor?

Native is lower than the current JVC line but in line with what I saw from the Sony and Epson's depending on how you have it setup. So not poor, but definitely a step back from the other JVCs. But the laser modulation goes a long way to filling in gaps.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 16, 2017, 02:20:39 PM
Do you have Lucy on blu-ray? There's a scene at the beginning of the film where the Sony 4K's are exhibiting quite a bit of banding and posterization:

JVC (eshift) vs Sony
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/184542

Here's a close up where I've highlighted the issues:

(Click to see the full resolution image)
(http://i.imgur.com/U5GEDuV.png)
Posterization shown in the top large red box, and banding shown in the bottom two red boxes

This type of banding and posterization happens quite frequently on the Sony 4K's from what I've seen. That shot above shows the issue quite well IMO.

Looking at the same scene with the standard Blu-ray of Lucy it looks nearly identical to the JVC in your high resolution pic. None of the banding that I see in your pic of the Sony. So looks all clear here.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 16, 2017, 03:23:06 PM
Native is lower than the current JVC line but in line with what I saw from the Sony and Epson's depending on how you have it setup. So not poor, but definitely a step back from the other JVCs. But the laser modulation goes a long way to filling in gaps.

Hi Kris, I posted this on AVS but will repeat it here. I think going forward with these laser projectors, I think the most useful information would be contrast ratio measured at multiple APL levels, in addition to the regular 50% ANSI measurement.

What I really want to know,

At 16fl, what is the contrast ratio at 1% APL.

We know dimming takes care of 0%, then 1% through 4% is critical information and will actually tell us a lot.

For Eg, my X7000 at Low lamp -10 it does this:

0% - 48,571:1
1% - 45,945:1
2% - 15,962:1
3% - 6,273:1
4% - 3,238:1

If you could grab those measurements and let us know, I know it would just put a lot of us at ease.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 16, 2017, 04:19:12 PM
Hi Kris, I posted this on AVS but will repeat it here. I think going forward with these laser projectors, I think the most useful information would be contrast ratio measured at multiple APL levels, in addition to the regular 50% ANSI measurement.

What I really want to know,

At 16fl, what is the contrast ratio at 1% APL.

We know dimming takes care of 0%, then 1% through 4% is critical information and will actually tell us a lot.

For Eg, my X7000 at Low lamp -10 it does this:

0% - 48,571:1
1% - 45,945:1
2% - 15,962:1
3% - 6,273:1
4% - 3,238:1

If you could grab those measurements and let us know, I know it would just put a lot of us at ease.

What are you using for proper measurement patterns for each of these APLs? Also, the laser function on this is different than say the Epson, so measuring it more traditionally applies more to this than it does the Epson presently. But I could do something along these lines with the proper patterns.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 16, 2017, 04:27:11 PM
Have you got your projector already Mike?

No, just going by the confirmation by third party what I was told this projector would do. Especially pleased that dynamic dimming works well.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 16, 2017, 04:58:35 PM
What are you using for proper measurement patterns for each of these APLs? Also, the laser function on this is different than say the Epson, so measuring it more traditionally applies more to this than it does the Epson presently. But I could do something along these lines with the proper patterns.

Hi Kris,

I just used the AVS709HD patterns, they have 0% black, 1% grey, 2%, 3%, 4% grey fields etc. It will at least tell you the luminance levels at those points, then when divided into the white peak you have a number.

I would be interested in those measurements with a chart similar to what projection dream uses, but I don't know where to get those.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on January 16, 2017, 05:04:56 PM
Kris,

I would be curious of your take of how much more detail the RS4500 has over the RS500 in terms of detail on native 4K UHD BD content from your seating distance to the screen.  Is it pretty subtle?  Moderate?  Or large?  Thanks.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 16, 2017, 05:17:27 PM
Kris,

I would be curious of your take of how much more detail the RS4500 has over the RS500 in terms of detail on native 4K UHD BD content from your seating distance to the screen.  Is it pretty subtle?  Moderate?  Or large?  Thanks.

I think this is going to be hard to quantify. I really think this comes down to screen size, screen material (which I think is going to be extremely important going into 4K), seated distance and visual acuity. Though I'm sure he'll still give us his subjective opinion. Due to the higher brightness and probably high ANSI contrast I don't doubt he'll have something favorable to say on the matter. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 16, 2017, 05:19:23 PM
Looking at the same scene with the standard Blu-ray of Lucy it looks nearly identical to the JVC in your high resolution pic. None of the banding that I see in your pic of the Sony. So looks all clear here.

Thank you VERY much for confirming that the issue is not there with their native 4K DiLA panels. If they can achieve similar or better on/off to the 5000ES then I think this will be a home run for JVC.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on January 16, 2017, 05:34:01 PM
I think this is going to be hard to quantify. I really think this comes down to screen size, screen material (which I think is going to be extremely important going into 4K), seated distance and visual acuity. Though I'm sure he'll still give us his subjective opinion. Due to the higher brightness and probably high ANSI contrast I don't doubt he'll have something favorable to say on the matter. :)

Yep, that's why I said "your take" from "your seating seat distance". :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 16, 2017, 05:48:43 PM
Hi Kris, I just used the AVS709HD patterns, they have 0% black, 1% grey, 2%, 3%, 4% grey fields etc. It will at least tell you the luminance levels at those points, then when divided into the white peak you have a number.
Javs, given that's a Blu-Ray Disc that's not reference... For accuracy you must use a reference pattern generator like the Murideo SIX-G 4K HDR for example... Just checking that you know / are aware of this, which I am sure you are... There are some comparatively less expensive but still good pattern generators out there, so given you are clearly very much into your measurements (which is great) you might want to think about investing in one... It's well worth it IMO ;) :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 16, 2017, 06:07:43 PM
Javs, given that's a Blu-Ray Disc that's not reference... For accuracy you must use a reference pattern generator like the Murideo SIX-G 4K HDR for example... Just checking that you know / are aware of this, which I am sure you are... There are some comparatively less expensive but still good pattern generators out there, so given you are clearly very much into your measurements (which is great) you might want to think about investing in one... It's well worth it IMO ;) :)

While I agree that pattern generators are ideal, as long as the patterns are vetted they should be fine even if sourced from a Blu. And the AVS disc is fine in that regard.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 16, 2017, 07:28:16 PM
While I agree that pattern generators are ideal, as long as the patterns are vetted they should be fine even if sourced from a Blu. And the AVS disc is fine in that regard.
Mmmmm, there seems to be mixed opinions regarding this, so I'll just say that what I just posted is the THX professional video calibration guidelines so it's up to whoever whether or not they choose to follow these... Where we do, and for what it's worth we have experienced first hand some significant variances with respect to signal outputs across blu-ray discs and different blu-ray players... It's quite simply not reference. But of course everyone is entitled to form their own opinion and I don't want to kick off an argument, so each to their own... ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 16, 2017, 07:46:22 PM
Mmmmm, there seems to be mixed opinions regarding this, so I'll just say that what I just posted is the THX professional video calibration guidelines so it's up to whoever whether or not they choose to follow these... Where we do, and for what it's worth we have experienced first hand some significant variances with respect to signal outputs across blu-ray discs and different blu-ray players... It's quite simply not reference. But of course everyone it entitled to form their own opinion and I don't want to kick of an argument so each to their own... ;)

It is a good argument. There are test discs that have been verified for accuracy of the pattern, the AVS disc is one of them as is the S&M disc. But I agree that players may distort the signal, but the Oppo isn't one of them and has had its output verified to be as accurate as any test generator. For test generators I have a Radiance Pro, DVDO 4K TPG, and a Videoforge. I also have test discs from S&M, THX, Video Essentials, AVS709, Marvell, and Ted's disc.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 16, 2017, 07:49:07 PM
It is a good argument. There are test discs that have been verified for accuracy of the pattern, the AVS disc is one of them as is the S&M disc. But I agree that players may distort the signal, but the Oppo isn't one of them and has had its output verified to be as accurate as any test generator. For test generators I have a Radiance Pro, DVDO 4K TPG, and a Videoforge. I also have test discs from S&M, THX, Video Essentials, AVS709, Marvell, and Ted's disc.
Variance across discs is not the only issue, but variance across players as well, and then there are other influencing factors... Or let me put it this way, if you were to attend the THX professional video calibration Levels 1 & 2 you would be specifically told NOT to do this, for the reasons I have stated... Take away from that whatever you like and of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions... Like I said, I don't want to get into an argument, so let's leave it there... ;)

And for what it's worth Kris, your capabilities were never, are never, and will never be in question even for a nanosecond... And neither is Javs... I was simply wanting to make the point that if you want to be absolutely sure of accuracy then you really need to be using a reference pattern generator... That was/is my only point here :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 16, 2017, 07:51:27 PM
Hi Kris, I posted this on AVS but will repeat it here. I think going forward with these laser projectors, I think the most useful information would be contrast ratio measured at multiple APL levels, in addition to the regular 50% ANSI measurement.

What I really want to know,

At 16fl, what is the contrast ratio at 1% APL.

We know dimming takes care of 0%, then 1% through 4% is critical information and will actually tell us a lot.

For Eg, my X7000 at Low lamp -10 it does this:

0% - 48,571:1
1% - 45,945:1
2% - 15,962:1
3% - 6,273:1
4% - 3,238:1

If you could grab those measurements and let us know, I know it would just put a lot of us at ease.

For my calibrated viewing (17 fL) using the laser in mid power, aperture at -8, near long throw and with the dynamic dimming activated in mode 2:

0=67K:1
1%=20K:1
2%=10K:1
3%=6300:1
4%=3500:1

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 16, 2017, 07:53:54 PM
Variance across discs is not the only issue, but variance across players as well, and then there are other influencing factors... Or let me put it this way, if you were to attend the THX professional video calibration Levels 1 & 2 you would be specifically told NOT to do this, for the reasons I have stated... Take away from that whatever you like and of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions... Like I said, I don't want to get into an argument, so let's leave it there... ;)

I've had many conversations about this with the guys that created the THX program, Michael has been to my house many times. For calibration it is always ideal to use a pattern generator (this also speeds up the process) but for measurements such as contrast as long as you are using vetted patterns with a player that is known to output HDMI signals correctly (which the Oppo is), there is no difference between this and a pattern generator. This may not be the case for all players out there, but in the case of the Oppo BDP-105 (which is what I'm using in this case) it is.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 16, 2017, 07:55:59 PM
I've had many conversations about this with the guys that created the THX program, Michael has been to my house many times. For calibration it is always ideal to use a pattern generator (this also speeds up the process) but for measurements such as contrast as long as you are using vetted patterns with a player that is known to output HDMI signals correctly (which the Oppo is), there is no difference between this and a pattern generator. This may not be the case for all players out there, but in the case of the Oppo BDP-105 (which is what I'm using in this case) it is.
Absolutely fair enough :)

And I should add, gotta love those OPPOs!!!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 16, 2017, 07:59:15 PM
For my calibrated viewing (17 fL) using the laser in mid power, aperture at -8, near long throw and with the dynamic dimming activated in mode 2:

0=67K:1
1%=20K:1
2%=10K:1
3%=6300:1
4%=3500:1
Kris you are an absolute LEGEND!!!!  :D

At long last we have reliable and intelligible data regarding this projector!

So basically, we are talking about 40%(ish) the contrast of the existing models, which is to be expected, but nothing like the disaster that we were led to believe. Brilliant. :)

Have you some lumens figures to accompany those? I hope I am not asking too much! ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 16, 2017, 08:26:36 PM
Is it possible to get a native on/off contrast measurement with the same setup minus the laser dimming being enabled?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 16, 2017, 08:32:53 PM
For my calibrated viewing (17 fL) using the laser in mid power, aperture at -8, near long throw and with the dynamic dimming activated in mode 2:

0=67K:1
1%=20K:1
2%=10K:1
3%=6300:1
4%=3500:1

WOW. That is a little unexpected. We can expect a lot more contrast if you stopped the iris down to maximum is that right? -8 if its in line with current JVC's is about half way closed.

Thanks so much Kris.

Question, with the Dynamic dimming mode active as it is, why is 0% not infinity, or completely off?

If 0% truly does switch off, and 1% is 20k:1 that's the level I have from my RS500 wide open at 1%, and by damn, thats not bad at all, I will buy this thing if that is the case.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 16, 2017, 09:00:21 PM
WOW. That is a little unexpected. We can expect a lot more contrast if you stopped the iris down to maximum is that right? -8 if its in line with current JVC's is about half way closed.

Thanks so much Kris.

Question, with the Dynamic dimming mode active as it is, why is 0% not infinity, or completely off?

If 0% truly does switch off, and 1% is 20k:1 that's the level I have from my RS500 wide open at 1%, and by damn, thats not bad at all, I will buy this thing if that is the case.
Javs, what's your opinion regarding the fact the X7000 figures have only a small decrease in contrast between 0% and 1% APL but the drop is a lot greater with the RS4500/Z1... What's your opinion regarding that?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 16, 2017, 09:08:02 PM
Javs, what's your opinion regarding the fact the X7000 figures have only a small decrease in contrast between 0% and 1% APL but the drop is a lot greater with the RS4500/Z1... What's your opinion regarding that?


Bar 17 could be slightly darker on my unit at the positions I actually watch content... I tend to assume 17 is fine if I can barely see it with my face to the screen... bar 17 visible, dark as hell or not, is not technically clipping :)

Could be that, or, could be the dimming playing some part, I dont get why this is not infinity if dimming was on.

Otherwise the only time my JVC considerably drops at 1% is iris-15:

0% - 112,307:1
1% - 73,000:1
2% - 20,277:1
3% - 7,643:1
4% - 3,518:1

This is the RS500 low lamp -0:

0% - 22,750:1
1% - 22,377:1
2% - 10,073:1
3% - 4,105:1
4% - 2,363:1

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on January 16, 2017, 10:03:41 PM
Much better contrast numbers than we were lead to believe.  Sounds like this is going to be a phenomenal projector.  I would also like to hear about the HDR performance.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 16, 2017, 10:13:50 PM
Much better contrast numbers than we were lead to believe.  Sounds like this is going to be a phenomenal projector.  I would also like to hear about the HDR performance.

Especially when all the other improvements are taken into account. I just watched " Deepwater Horizon " in 4K on my RS600. Going to have to use this as a test disc when I get the RS4500. Stellar picture quality.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 16, 2017, 10:21:17 PM


Bar 17 could be slightly darker on my unit at the positions I actually watch content... I tend to assume 17 is fine if I can barely see it with my face to the screen... bar 17 visible, dark as hell or not, is not technically clipping :)

Could be that, or, could be the dimming playing some part, I dont get why this is not infinity if dimming was on.

Otherwise the only time my JVC considerably drops at 1% is iris-15:

0% - 112,307:1
1% - 73,000:1
2% - 20,277:1
3% - 7,643:1
4% - 3,518:1

This is the RS500 low lamp -0:

0% - 22,750:1
1% - 22,377:1
2% - 10,073:1
3% - 4,105:1
4% - 2,363:1

Digital 17 is not an issue with the 4500 like it is with other models.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 16, 2017, 10:32:36 PM
Especially when all the other improvements are taken into account. I just watched " Deepwater Horizon " in 4K on my RS600. Going to have to use this as a test disc when I get the RS4500. Stellar picture quality.
Poor you Craig, having to make do with a RS600 until you receive your RS4500! How on earth are you coping? ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 16, 2017, 10:33:43 PM
Digital 17 is not an issue with the 4500 like it is with other models.
Good to know :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Andreas21 on January 17, 2017, 05:10:32 AM
Hi Kris,

I just used the AVS709HD patterns, they have 0% black, 1% grey, 2%, 3%, 4% grey fields etc. It will at least tell you the luminance levels at those points, then when divided into the white peak you have a number.

I would be interested in those measurements with a chart similar to what projection dream uses, but I don't know where to get those.

To do this correctly you need to use the Projectiondream approach and ask them for the patterns. I asked for them a while ago, but I had no luck.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 17, 2017, 06:42:57 AM
To do this correctly you need to use the Projectiondream approach and ask them for the patterns. I asked for them a while ago, but I had no luck.

I asked Stacey Spears to come up with some patterns that effectively do the same thing, I'm hoping he'll include them on his next test disc. Doing it the way Javs mentioned works too for his application, because it is an apples to apples comparison with how he measured his.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 17, 2017, 08:55:35 AM
Poor you Craig, having to make do with a RS600 until you receive your RS4500! How on earth are you coping? ;)

I'm managing.  ;D
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 17, 2017, 12:12:26 PM
Was told my RS4500 will ship in the next few days. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 17, 2017, 12:35:27 PM
Could be that, or, could be the dimming playing some part, I dont get why this is not infinity if dimming was on.

Oh I think you could probably figure out why.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 17, 2017, 01:29:12 PM
Oh I think you could probably figure out why.

No, I am really not sure why :)

Did you turn off dimming for the 0% measurement by chance?

Or is it because dimming does not actually fully switch off the lasers at 0%? If that is the case, that is slightly alarming.

It may have to do with what looks better vs what specs better. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 17, 2017, 02:33:45 PM
Dimming was on ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 17, 2017, 03:16:27 PM
Dimming was on ;)

Well now I am suitably confused as to why 0% measured any black at all, should it not be completely off with 0%?

Thanks for doing those measurements by the way, that is very impressive and certainly don't seem to be giving up on too much with regards to 1 through 4%.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 17, 2017, 03:32:34 PM
Well now I am suitably confused as to why 0% measured any black at all, should it not be completely off with 0%?

Thanks for doing those measurements by the way, that is very impressive and certainly don't seem to be giving up on too much with regards to 1 through 4%.
In short, this is why 'INFINITE' contrast ratios are B.S. ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 17, 2017, 03:50:52 PM
In short, this is why 'INFINITE' contrast ratios are B.S. ;)

Nonsense.

The LS10k literally shuts off at 0%. I have stared directly into the lens while it does this.

Im just confused as to why the Z1 didn't apparently do this if 0% was projected and dimming was confirmed to be on.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 17, 2017, 04:13:12 PM
Unlike the Epson, it doesn't turn completely off. So you don't get that jarring off/on with fades or dark sequences but you also don't get a true infinite black.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 17, 2017, 04:38:39 PM
Unlike the Epson, it doesn't turn completely off. So you don't get that jarring off/on with fades or dark sequences but you also don't get a true infinite black.

Ok I see. Thanks.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 17, 2017, 04:46:38 PM
Nonsense.

The LS10k literally shuts off at 0%. I have stared directly into the lens while it does this.

Im just confused as to why the Z1 didn't apparently do this if 0% was projected and dimming was confirmed to be on.

While some like the LS10000's ability to go to absolute black, several have complained about the sudden jump in brightness when the laser comes back on. So you can either go for the absolute spec or you can go with what works the best. Of course in a perfect world, we would have both, but looks like you can't have your cake and eat it too. At least not yet. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 17, 2017, 04:56:26 PM
I noticed you said you're using mode 2 for the laser dimming. Does mode 1 turn the laser off completely?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on January 17, 2017, 04:58:51 PM
It's too bad there isn't a protocol giving the projector metadata about what is to come in say the next 30 seconds.  It could then be much smarter about how it controls its output.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 17, 2017, 05:33:36 PM
While some like the LS10000's ability to go to absolute black, several have complained about the sudden jump in brightness when the laser comes back on. So you can either go for the absolute spec or you can go with what works the best. Of course in a perfect world, we would have both, but looks like you can't have your cake and eat it too. At least not yet. :)

I agree with you Mike. The LS definitely kind of punched you in the face when just one single pixel came on and the thing just suddenly sprung out of full black. But the 1% Z1 measurements look good to me, far higher than the LS probably can do. In fact checking Projection Dreams LS measurements just now, at 1% they show only 6500:1, but thats Iris open, I can assume iris in the middle positino will be 8-9k:1 at best at 1% APL in the best case scenario, the Z1 still doubles the LS 1% contrast levels and this is great.

I just don't get why then JVC spent all this time touting infinity contrast, since we all know if the laser is on at all, this is not, and never will be infinity. I always believed this was because they can and did flat out shut off the laser. So there has got to be a mode or some such to have the laser fully switch off. I would accept a very mild pump with this, I know a lot of guys differ... But since with my full fades, I am looking at at least a few hundred thousand K:1 after the dust has settled on the fade, and I can still see grey essentially, I was hoping that would be black finally.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on January 17, 2017, 05:59:05 PM
Maybe this is JVC's philosophy though because doesn't the auto iris on the RS400-600 not close down as much as the 2014 models in an attempt to make the darkness more gradual?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 17, 2017, 06:11:54 PM
I noticed you said you're using mode 2 for the laser dimming. Does mode 1 turn the laser off completely?

No. Mode 1 is a "less aggressive" version of Mode 2. It seems to be the same overall in noticeability, but it doesn't dim down as far so you lose a bit on the blacks. This is apparent in measurements though I don't know how much you'd notice it in real world viewing.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 17, 2017, 06:12:52 PM
I agree with you Mike. The LS definitely kind of punched you in the face when just one single pixel came on and the thing just suddenly sprung out of full black. But the 1% Z1 measurements look good to me, far higher than the LS probably can do. In fact checking Projection Dreams LS measurements just now, at 1% they show only 6500:1, but thats Iris open, I can assume iris in the middle positino will be 8-9k:1 at best at 1% APL in the best case scenario, the Z1 still doubles the LS 1% contrast levels and this is great.

I just don't get why then JVC spent all this time touting infinity contrast, since we all know if the laser is on at all, this is not, and never will be infinity. I always believed this was because they can and did flat out shut off the laser. So there has got to be a mode or some such to have the laser fully switch off. I would accept a very mild pump with this, I know a lot of guys differ... But since with my full fades, I am looking at at least a few hundred thousand K:1 after the dust has settled on the fade, and I can still see grey essentially, I was hoping that would be black finally.

Either that or it could quite simply be that the original dimming software did turn off the laser. JVC then saw the same problem that the Epson has and solved it by not doing full off. This is just a hypothesis.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 17, 2017, 06:31:04 PM
I agree with you Mike. The LS definitely kind of punched you in the face when just one single pixel came on and the thing just suddenly sprung out of full black. But the 1% Z1 measurements look good to me, far higher than the LS probably can do. In fact checking Projection Dreams LS measurements just now, at 1% they show only 6500:1, but thats Iris open, I can assume iris in the middle positino will be 8-9k:1 at best at 1% APL in the best case scenario, the Z1 still doubles the LS 1% contrast levels and this is great.

I just don't get why then JVC spent all this time touting infinity contrast, since we all know if the laser is on at all, this is not, and never will be infinity. I always believed this was because they can and did flat out shut off the laser. So there has got to be a mode or some such to have the laser fully switch off. I would accept a very mild pump with this, I know a lot of guys differ... But since with my full fades, I am looking at at least a few hundred thousand K:1 after the dust has settled on the fade, and I can still see grey essentially, I was hoping that would be black finally.

Seeing as this is JVC's flagship home theater projector. and it is much easier to update the firmware, maybe this will be revised and improved in the future. I'm looking forward to testing this projector myself.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: thebland on January 17, 2017, 08:28:32 PM
Sounds good. At 1.3 gain on a 14' Microperf screen, how well will this PJ light things up? Any measurements, thoughts, etc. ? Is this PJ for larger screens?

Thanks for the heads up Kris (and Mike).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 17, 2017, 09:07:28 PM
Sounds good. At 1.3 gain on a 14' Microperf screen, how well will this PJ light things up? Any measurements, thoughts, etc. ? Is this PJ for larger screens?

Thanks for the heads up Kris (and Mike).

Without your A-lens around 27/30FL max depending on throw, on your Ultramatte 150 microperf (1.35 gain).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 17, 2017, 11:54:51 PM
Unlike the Epson, it doesn't turn completely off. So you don't get that jarring off/on with fades or dark sequences but you also don't get a true infinite black.

Oh, that's a shame.  I like complete fade to black.  In a light controlled room you are plunged into absolute darkness.  Filmmakers often use this mechanic - no light, but plenty of sound - it's very effective, and it's always spoiled by light off the screen.

Will withhold final judgment until I see it for myself (hopefully next week).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 18, 2017, 01:02:26 AM
Nonsense.

The LS10k literally shuts off at 0%. I have stared directly into the lens while it does this.

Im just confused as to why the Z1 didn't apparently do this if 0% was projected and dimming was confirmed to be on.
While some like the LS10000's ability to go to absolute black, several have complained about the sudden jump in brightness when the laser comes back on...
So not quite NONSENSE eh Javs? But don't worry, you are forgiven already ;) :)

So-called 'INFINITE' contrast ratios ARE unfortunately B.S. :)

I can in fact make any projector I like have  'INFINITE' contrast by simply pulling out the power cable or simply covering the lens whenever an image fades to 100% black... But let me ask you this... What happens if you were to feed any such projector reporting to have 'INFINITE' contrast, like the EPSON LS10000/10500, a video signal that is not 100% black? Even, as you say, a single pixel that is not black? And so has at least some of the image being lit? Does the black level remain the same? In other words, is the portion of the image that is black the same black level as when a complete fade to black? Yes or no? Because with true 'INFINITE' contrast the answer would be YES... But the answer is not yes, is it? Consequently, simply shutting off the light source completely if or whenever there is a 100% fade to black is most certainly NOT in fact truly 'INFINITE' contrast at all, but merely a gimmick and IMO a highly annoying one too, because of the significant jumps and disproportionate changes in black level between 100% black and everything else. OK? :)

The LS definitely kind of punched you in the face when just one single pixel came on and the thing just suddenly sprung out of full black... I just don't get why then JVC spent all this time touting infinity contrast, since we all know if the laser is on at all, this is not, and never will be infinity. I always believed this was because they can and did flat out shut off the laser. So there has got to be a mode or some such to have the laser fully switch off. I would accept a very mild pump with this, I know a lot of guys differ... But since with my full fades, I am looking at at least a few hundred thousand K:1 after the dust has settled on the fade, and I can still see grey essentially, I was hoping that would be black finally.
Because the 'INFINITE' contrast is a fudge, and not in fact true infinite contrast at all, the projector can't do it properly. It's as simple as that.  ;)

And typically the real reason why projector manufacturers choose to, as you say, tout infinity contrast, is because that's almost always merely a smokescreen to try to hide the fact that the projector's native contrast is not comparatively good... For example, I haven't ever seen JVC by shy about touting the superior contrast ratios of their projectors, when the contrast ratios are in fact superb, have you? ;)

So you have only two choices, namely either have the light source shut off completely with 100% black but not everything else, or a proportionate reduction in luminosity in which case 100% black will not in fact yield zero cd/m2. Where it's a matter of personal preference, but I personally prefer the latter given IMO nothing destroys immersiveness more than an unnatural jarring with respect to the video image :)

That said, I don't like blacks being grey either, but I am extraordinarily fussy and so very difficult to please!  :P
.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 18, 2017, 02:48:01 AM
So not quite NONSENSE eh Javs? But don't worry, you are forgiven already ;) :)

So-called 'INFINITE' contrast ratios ARE unfortunately B.S. :)

I can in fact make any projector I like have  'INFINITE' contrast by simply pulling out the power cable or simply covering the lens whenever an image fades to 100% black... But let me ask you this... What happens if you were to feed any such projector reporting to have 'INFINITE' contrast, like the EPSON LS10000/10500, a video signal that is not 100% black? Even, as you say, a single pixel that is not black? And so has at least some of the image being lit? Does the black level remain the same? In other words, is the portion of the image that is black the same black level as when a complete fade to black? Yes or no? Because with true 'INFINITE' contrast the answer would be YES... But the answer is not yes, is it? Consequently, simply shutting off the light source completely if or whenever there is a 100% fade to black is most certainly NOT in fact truly 'INFINITE' contrast at all, but merely a gimmick and IMO a highly annoying one too, because of the significant jumps and disproportionate changes in black level between 100% black and everything else. OK? :)
Because the 'INFINITE' contrast is a fudge, and not in fact true infinite contrast at all, the projector can't do it properly. It's as simple as that.  ;)

And typically the real reason why projector manufacturers choose to, as you say, tout infinity contrast, is because that's almost always merely a smokescreen to try to hide the fact that the projector's native contrast is not comparatively good... For example, I haven't ever seen JVC by shy about touting the superior contrast ratios of their projectors, when the contrast ratios are in fact superb, have you? ;)

So you have only two choices, namely either have the light source shut off completely with 100% black but not everything else, or a proportionate reduction in luminosity in which case 100% black will not in fact yield zero cd/m2. Where it's a matter of personal preference, but I personally prefer the latter given IMO nothing destroys immersiveness more than an unnatural jarring with respect to the video image :)

That said, I don't like blacks being grey either, but I am extraordinarily fussy and so very difficult to please!  :P
.

I am not sure why you are debating this with me. I didn't invent the infinity contrast ratio metric. But I do know that the manufacturers who have claimed it until today with JVC, I am talking Sony and Epson, both are able to shut the laser off in 100% black, thus there is no black level, thus when divided into white, its ON/OFF contrast ratio is infinite.

I know you are intelligent, but no need to try and drive this point home as if I dont understand the significance, the metric is not BS. It just means JVC in this case are not delivering on it.

The simple maths is this, in ON/OFF contrast, which almost all projectors are judged and sold if the projector has NO black level, there is zero luminance, and 150 nits peak white, then the ON/OFF contrast is unable to be calculated, this its infinity. If you are going to try and argue this point with me you are going to get very tired because I wont let up. :)

What happens if you were to feed any such projector reporting to have 'INFINITE' contrast, like the EPSON LS10000/10500, a video signal that is not 100% black?

If the video signal is supposed to be black, and it is not, then something is not set up right, hardly the projectors fault. If you are talking about a couple of pixels, Then it is no longer ON/OFF contrast is it? It then becomes a metric of ANSI contrast, which is why I asked for the Z1's measurements at 1 through 4% since I have been saying for months, not just in the Z1 thread which seems to be the only one you frequent much, but I have been saying it for months. With laser projectors, since they seem to be able to project (or lack thereof) TRUE black, then they need to be measured on ANSI measurements starting at 1% all the way up to the recognised 50% ANSI measurement.

Because with true 'INFINITE' contrast the answer would be YES...

If they are talking about Infinity ON/OFF contrast then they would be correct and the answer would be yes, you are once again talking about ANSI contrast, please understand the difference.


So you have only two choices, namely either have the light source shut off completely with 100% black but not everything else, or a proportionate reduction in luminosity in which case 100% black will not in fact yield zero cd/m2. Where it's a matter of personal preference, but I personally prefer the latter given IMO nothing destroys immersiveness more than an unnatural jarring with respect to the video image :)


Why do I only have two choices? How about a projector that can do 100k:1 at 1% APL, like I am sure the RS600 does at , and true black laser OFF at 0%. That's the best of all worlds, and for folks like yourself who dont like the 0% true black, have an option to turn it off, then the machine will do 150k:1 in black...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Peter Parker on January 18, 2017, 05:09:04 AM
I like the way the Epson lasers do complete full fade to black, and I don't mind the occasional blip as it comes out of black after it does that - for me I find the pros outweigh the cons. Being unable to see even your hand in front of your face in those instances does feel uncomfortable (in a good way) when it happens and adds something to the experience. Not everyone feels that way of course, but I do feel it's an added benefit and it would be nice for the Z1 to be able to do that as well if you wanted it. I find it a better compromise than the grey image you get with all other projectors that do 'black'. Even with the JVCs and eye adaption, you're often left with some grey if the FFTB is held long enough.

Zero light for black will always give infinite contrast so is not completely BS - it's done automatically and within the film playback without any intervention so is not the same as pulling the plug, otherwise all projectors could claim infinite CR. But it's not the true CR capability of the pj natively or dynamically.

With the JVC and Epson it would be good to see what the best CR is at 0% is without the laser being shut off so that we can see the native and dynamic contrast capability of the projector, that will tell us a lot about the general contrast performance and having the laser shut off for 0% is an option if you want it. Without that, even a laser LCD with 1500:1 CR could claim infinity the same as all other laser based projectors but it wouldn't tell us anything about the contrast performance during normal content, so we need to know the native (and dynamic) CR capability.

I remember some years ago Greg Rogers talking about the contrast ratios at 16 and 17 (to 235) and have been interested in seeing those measurements from all projectors, and have asked people for those measurements in the past but have never been given them - Javs and then Kris are the first ones I've seen do this and publish that information and I think it helps to see what the CR capability of the pj is at low levels. It's not as simple as that as set up can come into play (i.e how you set up 17 on the JVC for example) and if using grey and not white, gamma can come into play, but it does give us some insight into the contrast capability of the projector. We just need to all be using the same patterns for better comparisons. C4Hs graph for on/off to ANSI is a great example, but some other people are doing it differently and not releasing those patterns so they're not comparable, only within a particular individuals reviews.

On a side note, using a generator for test patterns is said to be ideal, but that only works if the video chain that will be used is also ideal. If the chain isn't, and you calibrate to the generator so the image you get is at D65, when you start playing movies via the video chain, the image may no longer be at D65. You'll only get that when watching the generator. So you you need to check the video playback is as accurate as the generator. Of course the answer is to make sure the player/chain is reference so that the video playback is the same as the generator, but not all clients will have that, so then I would think they would get better results with reference disk in the clients equipment rather than using a generator in those instances.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on January 18, 2017, 05:22:18 AM
Totally agree that adding "infinite" contrast as part of the spec just reduces overall credibility for JVC or any other producer doing the same... The Epson LS10000 hanging in my current cinema just annoys me when shutting off the laser between scenes, does not seem natural at all since the difference between "off" and "on" is such clearly noted. It´s not like the good ol´ CRTs where actually information was portrayed while keeping the remainder of the frame at practically zero...

Still, looking forward to see how the laser dimming works out for the Z1, hopefully we´ll get these monsters delivered here in Norway soon as well!

 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 18, 2017, 05:29:03 AM
I am not sure why you are debating this with me. I didn't invent the infinity contrast ratio metric. But I do know that the manufacturers who have claimed it until today with JVC, I am talking Sony and Epson, both are able to shut the laser off in 100% black, thus there is no black level, thus when divided into white, its ON/OFF contrast ratio is infinite.

I know you are intelligent, but no need to try and drive this point home as if I dont understand the significance, the metric is not BS. It just means JVC in this case are not delivering on it.

The simple maths is this, in ON/OFF contrast, which almost all projectors are judged and sold if the projector has NO black level, there is zero luminance, and 150 nits peak white, then the ON/OFF contrast is unable to be calculated, this its infinity. If you are going to try and argue this point with me you are going to get very tired because I wont let up. :)

What happens if you were to feed any such projector reporting to have 'INFINITE' contrast, like the EPSON LS10000/10500, a video signal that is not 100% black?

If the video signal is supposed to be black, and it is not, then something is not set up right, hardly the projectors fault. If you are talking about a couple of pixels, Then it is no longer ON/OFF contrast is it? It then becomes a metric of ANSI contrast, which is why I asked for the Z1's measurements at 1 through 4% since I have been saying for months, not just in the Z1 thread which seems to be the only one you frequent much, but I have been saying it for months. With laser projectors, since they seem to be able to project (or lack thereof) TRUE black, then they need to be measured on ANSI measurements starting at 1% all the way up to the recognised 50% ANSI measurement.

Because with true 'INFINITE' contrast the answer would be YES...

If they are talking about Infinity ON/OFF contrast then they would be correct and the answer would be yes, you are once again talking about ANSI contrast, please understand the difference.


So you have only two choices, namely either have the light source shut off completely with 100% black but not everything else, or a proportionate reduction in luminosity in which case 100% black will not in fact yield zero cd/m2. Where it's a matter of personal preference, but I personally prefer the latter given IMO nothing destroys immersiveness more than an unnatural jarring with respect to the video image :)


Why do I only have two choices? How about a projector that can do 100k:1 at 1% APL, like I am sure the RS600 does at , and true black laser OFF at 0%. That's the best of all worlds, and for folks like yourself who dont like the 0% true black, have an option to turn it off, then the machine will do 150k:1 in black...

Has the Epson been measured at 1%? Curious to know the answer to that, to see how big of a jump it has coming out off infinity. It is probably just as easy for JVC to have set the projector up, to just turn off the light source in a full fade to black, so it sounds to me JVC selected not to, because overall it came across better when viewing. I will see if I can get any information.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 18, 2017, 05:59:47 AM
Oh, that's a shame.  I like complete fade to black.  In a light controlled room you are plunged into absolute darkness.  Filmmakers often use this mechanic - no light, but plenty of sound - it's very effective, and it's always spoiled by light off the screen.

Will withhold final judgment until I see it for myself (hopefully next week).

I got this illusion of this with my RS600 in my room. In looking at Kris's numbers for the RS4500 and Jav's numbers for the RS500, I think the RS4500 is going to do even better than my RS600. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 18, 2017, 06:02:57 AM
I guess we could ask Kris, how does the JVC look when doing full fade to black with dynamic dimming on?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 18, 2017, 07:50:47 AM
I guess we could ask Kris, how does the JVC look when doing full fade to black with dynamic dimming on?

Better than my X750. Plus absolutely zero uniformity issues.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 18, 2017, 08:07:49 AM
Sounds good. At 1.3 gain on a 14' Microperf screen, how well will this PJ light things up? Any measurements, thoughts, etc. ? Is this PJ for larger screens?

Thanks for the heads up Kris (and Mike).

It appears to me from the lumen numbers I've seen that the RS4500 is about the same brightness wise as your Lumis. Maybe a little brighter. I think my Lumis Host was spec'd at 3000 lumens, but I never measured that many. More like 2200 calibrated in high lamp. Of course my lamps dimmed rather rapidly, something that won't be a problem with the RS4500. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 18, 2017, 08:29:58 AM
It appears to me from the lumen numbers I've seen that the RS4500 is about the same brightness wise as your Lumis. Maybe a little brighter. I think my Lumis Host was spec'd at 3000 lumens, but I never measured that many. More like 2200 calibrated in high lamp. Of course my lamps dimmed rather rapidly, something that won't be a problem with the RS4500.

4500 is brighter calibrated than the Lumis. :)
Talking at max calibrated lumens, not with iris closed down. Not talking a huge difference (200/300), but it would start to be a big difference as soon as you put 100 hours on the Lumis.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 18, 2017, 09:40:56 AM
That's the trouble with lamp projectors. Even if they started out at the exact same brightness, the lamp projector will only be that bright for a few hours. Then starts it's long steady decay. Laser may decay too, but at a much slower rate.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 18, 2017, 09:59:32 AM
I am not sure why you are debating this with me... I know you are intelligent, but no need to try and drive this point home as if I dont understand the significance...
How about we simply agree that it would be more representative and usefully indicative of actual video performance if, with respect to projectors such as the Epson 10000/10500, the native ON/OFF contrast was measured and published within the projector's published technical information, not by turning off the light source, but with the light output being set to whatever is the proportionate step down from all black 16 with singular white 235 pixel to full field black 16; and leave it at that. OK? :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 18, 2017, 10:15:57 AM
How about we simply agree that it would be more representative and usefully indicative of actual video performance if, with respect to projectors such as the Epson 10000/10500, the native ON/OFF contrast was measured and published within the projector's published technical information, not by turning off the light source, but with the light output being set to whatever is the proportionate step down from all black 16 with singular white 235 pixel to full field black 16; and leave it at that. OK? :)

This is why I usually disregard manufacturer's ( marketing department ) numbers and just wait for the review by at least 2 neutral parties ( Kris does count double though ).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 18, 2017, 10:20:40 AM
How about we simply agree that it would be more representative and usefully indicative of actual video performance if, with respect to projectors such as the Epson 10000/10500, the native ON/OFF contrast was measured and published within the projector's published technical information, not by turning off the light source, but with the light output being set to whatever is the proportionate step down from all black 16 with singular white 235 pixel to full field black 16; and leave it at that. OK? :)

Yep, otherwise what are we going to say when a DLP with 1,500:1 native has a laser that shuts off.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 18, 2017, 10:38:53 AM
Better than my X750. Plus absolutely zero uniformity issues.

That is good enough for me!!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 18, 2017, 02:01:50 PM
Has the Epson been measured at 1%? Curious to know the answer to that, to see how big of a jump it has coming out off infinity. It is probably just as easy for JVC to have set the projector up, to just turn off the light source in a full fade to black, so it sounds to me JVC selected not to, because overall it came across better when viewing. I will see if I can get any information.

Yes,

At the bottom of this review:

http://projectiondream.com/en/epson-eh-ls10000-projector-review/

Wide open Iris at 1% they measure 6800/7000:1. They measured 12500 at 0%, so that's a half loss.

(http://projectiondream.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Epson-EH-LS10000-contrast-curve.png)

They measured 0% Iris fully closed at 28k, so since we can assume half loss at 1%, best case scenario it might be 14k at 1%
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 18, 2017, 02:06:18 PM
How about we simply agree that it would be more representative and usefully indicative of actual video performance if, with respect to projectors such as the Epson 10000/10500, the native ON/OFF contrast was measured and published within the projector's published technical information, not by turning off the light source, but with the light output being set to whatever is the proportionate step down from all black 16 with singular white 235 pixel to full field black 16; and leave it at that. OK? :)

We never disagreed with that, I disagreed with you saying that the metric was BS, when it is not, the maths is real.

I disagree with you only on a technicality. If you know anything about me, and read the JVC user threads, you would know I have been advocating these multi measurement contrast ratios since well before you ever mentioned it in the Z1 thread, we are on the same page mate.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 18, 2017, 02:28:29 PM
...I disagreed with you saying that the metric was BS, when it is not, the maths is real... I disagree with you only on a technicality...we are on the same page mate.
Good to hear we're on the same page about this! :)

Although for what it's worth I never actually said that, but no worries! ;) :)

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: thebland on January 18, 2017, 04:40:32 PM
Without your A-lens around 27/30FL max depending on throw, on your Ultramatte 150 microperf (1.35 gain).

I'm not the video guy here, though the lumens are better on this JVC relative to my Lumis, is the increased CR of this PJ make the effect similar to CRTs in that you do not need high brightness to get a terrific contrasted picture?

For the typical film, where is the sweet spot in terms of brightness with a calibrated picture (Ft Lamberts) in a darkened HT environment that most here feel is ideal?

Thanks!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 18, 2017, 04:44:37 PM
I'm not the video guy here, though the lumens are better on this JVC relative to my Lumis, is the increased CR of this PJ make the effect similar to CRTs in that you do not need high brightness to get a terrific contrasted picture?

For the typical film, where is the sweet spot in terms of brightness with a calibrated picture (Ft Lamberts) in a darkened HT environment that most here feel is ideal?

Thanks!

I'd say around 16 foot lamberts.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 18, 2017, 04:47:10 PM
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15977793_10211725895363923_9036429901123334335_n.jpg?oh=a9ad26393f55ecad4ff20545febca38d&oe=5908B43A)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 18, 2017, 05:06:07 PM
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16105699_10211726022527102_413794724755466911_n.jpg?oh=36a12240c5dbc4360cac31ac3dcba10a&oe=590F64AE)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 18, 2017, 06:01:23 PM
For the typical film, where is the sweet spot in terms of brightness with a calibrated picture (Ft Lamberts) in a darkened HT environment that most here feel is ideal? Thanks!
I'd say around 16 foot lamberts.
Craig is absolutely bang on as per usual ;) To elaborate, THX professional video calibration guidelines stipulate 14-16fL for projectors displaying HD/2K resolution SDR video, and 30fL for 4K UHD and/or HDR, and 35fL for video display panels including TVs. This is the latest up to date best practice recommendations ;) Where it is perhaps worth mentioning that with respect to DOLBY CINEMAS, which utilize DOLBY VISION projectors, the video image is calibrated to be 30fL :)   
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 18, 2017, 06:19:16 PM
Totally agree that adding "infinite" contrast as part of the spec just reduces overall credibility for JVC or any other producer doing the same... The Epson LS10000 hanging in my current cinema just annoys me when shutting off the laser between scenes, does not seem natural at all since the difference between "off" and "on" is such clearly noted...
Very nice to bump into you on here Jon! Just to let you know I will be testing out a JVC RS4500/Z1 on your DREAMSCREEN ULTRAWEAVE V6 screen material next Tuesday... Should make for a good combination me thinks ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 18, 2017, 06:42:23 PM
Very nice to bump into you on here Jon! Just to let you know I will be testing out a JVC RS4500/Z1 on your DREAMSCREEN ULTRAWEAVE V6 screen material next Tuesday... Should make for a good combination me thinks ;)

I'd like to be testing mine out too next Tuesday. No word yet on a ship date. Never has one looked so forward to so big a charge on their credit card. Charge it, send it. Come to Daddy !

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 18, 2017, 08:55:58 PM
Craig is absolutely bang on as per usual ;) To elaborate, THX professional video calibration guidelines stipulate 14-16fL for projectors displaying HD/2K resolution SDR video, and 30fL for 4K UHD and/or HDR, and 35fL for video display panels including TVs. This is the latest up to date best practice recommendations ;) Where it is perhaps worth mentioning that with respect to DOLBY CINEMAS, which utilize DOLBY VISION projectors, the video image is calibrated to be 30fL :)   

Isn't the 100 nit (~30ftL) standard for HDR only for Dolby Vision in commercial cinema? HDR10 on UHD blu-ray is encoded and intended to be played back with at least 1000 nits of peak white brightness for highlights in the image.

With that said, I think it's silly that so many people have arguments over HDR in the consumer world of front projection. Sure, one might look a little better, but they're all compromising accuracy if they can't meet the peak white nit level of the encoded material. Right now I think that all we can hope for is that Dolby Vision on UHD Blu-ray can allow for accurate tone mapping for displays that cannot achieve the appropriate peak nit point of the encoded material. As Kris mentions, nothing right now is tone mapping "accurately". To some people that accuracy matters more than it does for others. I think for the sake of someone like Kris who is trying to objectively compare two HDR projectors that accuracy matters more to say which projector is displaying the HDR content more correctly. But without a way to do that at the moment these comparisons may prove to be difficult and in the end someone like Kris will have to make a judgment call on which projector is doing less harm in that inaccurate tone mapping process with HDR10 content.

Though I'm sure he'll elaborate more on the subject if he wants or correct things if I've made some mistakes on my take of the situation. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on January 19, 2017, 12:07:18 AM
Kris, are you going to do motion testing to determine the response rate of the projector?  My aging RS1 is not great when it comes to motion handling.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on January 19, 2017, 03:33:54 AM
Very nice to bump into you on here Jon! Just to let you know I will be testing out a JVC RS4500/Z1 on your DREAMSCREEN ULTRAWEAVE V6 screen material next Tuesday... Should make for a good combination me thinks ;)

Same config that we will be using here, albeit our showroom has a limit of 13 feet width but I guess that´ll have to do... :) Also, the UltraWeave V6 will be showcased at the ISE show in Amsterdam come February 7.-10., alongside Alcons Audio and Barco, whileas the "XXL", 3m / almost 10 feet tall fabric is "cooking" as we speak; hopefully I will be able to review the results quite shortly.

Anyhow, back to the Z1, and also the future of projection as such; having seen how a 8,5K Barco 2K was able to light up an 11 feet UltraWeave I do see the need for more light. However, I just installed an RS600 in our 13-feet-width showroom awaiting the Z1 and I have to say; contrast really "allows" for less light! We normally use an RS400 / X5000 in that particular setup, and at a 11 feet wide screen, not the recent upgraded 13 feet, but the RS600 actually - much due to its amazing contrast - lights up the 13 feet with far more confidence than the X5000 / RS400 albeit it only differs slightly in terms of lumens. As such, I really do hope the Z1 boosts contrast levels that exceeds RS400 at least, as the increased light output might not give the result I would hope for if indeed the contrast is not sufficient.

As for the 2K 3-chip DLP Barco @8,5K lumens, the contrast levels are - of course - very low, about 2-4K:1. Still, all that light in combination with Barcos excellent gamma does impress regardless of contrast being that poor, partly due to the ANSI contrast being superior... The question remains if the JVC will impress in the same manner provided contrast does not meet the current "RS"-standards, but I guess time will SHOW! :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 19, 2017, 05:22:38 AM
Kris, are you going to do motion testing to determine the response rate of the projector?  My aging RS1 is not great when it comes to motion handling.

JVC has improved on this area, since your RS1, to the point that few complain about motion on the current JVC's. Will be interesting to see if laser allows them to take another step in that direction.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 19, 2017, 05:57:33 AM
Isn't the 100 nit (~30ftL) standard for HDR only for Dolby Vision in commercial cinema?
No. It is not only for Dolby Vision in commercial cinema. As stated in my previous post, it is also the THX professional video calibration recommendation with respect to consumer/domestic 4K UHD and HDR projected video images and also display panels, which includes TVs. Where the recommendation with respect to projected image with HD/2K and SDR is 14-16fL, so basically half that ;)

HDR10 on UHD blu-ray is encoded and intended to be played back with at least 1000 nits of peak white brightness for highlights in the image...
Firstly, the 1,000 nits peak is relevant only with respect to video display panels such as TVs, not projectors; and good luck sourcing a home theater projector that can hit 1,000 nits! :P ;D

Seriously though, you've absolutely hit the nail on the head, or more specifically the root cause with respect to why consumer/domestic HDR is a total mess (and will remain a mess for the next 12-24 months), namely the absence of an agreed grading protocol, and consequently all consumer/domestic HDR video source material has been graded, not with projectors in mind, because the projector subset of the consumer/domestic AV market is a small niche as compared with TVs... So all the focus is on TVs and hence the 1,000 nits peak (540 nits for OLED)... and completely ignoring what is optimum and/or correct for projectors, which is 100 nits / 28fL for HDR and/or 4K UHD video, and where the grading varies to a ludicrous degree from 1,000nits up to circa 8,000 nits and everything in-between... Where this is not going to change anytime soon, so the best course of action is to correct the 'completely-all-over-the-place-grading' via use of an external video processor like the Lumagen Radiance PRO which can be used to remap all video to match whatever is the peak luminosity of your particular HT... Otherwise your video image will not even remotely look its best and will be clipping all over the place etc... Wherein, if you acheive the target of 100nits (=28fL) then you would want to remap all video such that all video fed to the projector is all graded at 100nits (=28fL) just like in Dolby Cinemas :)

That said, these are GUIDELINES and so it's up to you whether you agree with them and/or choose to follow them... although suffice to say THX doesn't make these recommendations without good reason... And for what it's worth we follow them to the letter  ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 19, 2017, 06:09:28 AM
Same config that we will be using here, albeit our showroom has a limit of 13 feet width but I guess that´ll have to do... :) Also, the UltraWeave V6 will be showcased at the ISE show in Amsterdam come February 7.-10., alongside Alcons Audio and Barco...
Well suffice to say I will be gatecrashing your party at the Alcons Audio and Barco booth! And looking forward to meeting you :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 19, 2017, 06:55:49 AM
It will be very interesting to see what the Radiance Pro brings to HDR calibration for projectors. I have one in my rack ready to go once that feature is enabled with the Calman software. It is interesting that THX specifies 30 fL for UHD content. I can see shooting for a peak white of 30 fL with HDR to preserve some headroom but for SDR 4K content that is really bright on a large screen. I tried 30 fL with standard Blu-ray to see what I thought and it was just way too much for my viewing. 16-17 fL seems to be a really great sweet spot in that it looks extremely vibrant and natural without much in the way of fatigue. Some occasional jumps from dark to bright sequences can be aggravating though.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 19, 2017, 07:41:43 AM
It will be very interesting to see what the Radiance Pro brings to HDR calibration for projectors. I have one in my rack ready to go once that feature is enabled with the Calman software. It is interesting that THX specifies 30 fL for UHD content. I can see shooting for a peak white of 30 fL with HDR to preserve some headroom but for SDR 4K content that is really bright on a large screen. I tried 30 fL with standard Blu-ray to see what I thought and it was just way too much for my viewing. 16-17 fL seems to be a really great sweet spot in that it looks extremely vibrant and natural without much in the way of fatigue. Some occasional jumps from dark to bright sequences can be aggravating though.

30 FL in a dark theater would give my wife another reason to say " turn it down " !

I don't recall seeing you mention what signal sync times are compared with the current RS500 / 600 projectors. Better ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: thebland on January 19, 2017, 08:14:03 AM
It will be very interesting to see what the Radiance Pro brings to HDR calibration for projectors. I have one in my rack ready to go once that feature is enabled with the Calman software. It is interesting that THX specifies 30 fL for UHD content. I can see shooting for a peak white of 30 fL with HDR to preserve some headroom but for SDR 4K content that is really bright on a large screen. I tried 30 fL with standard Blu-ray to see what I thought and it was just way too much for my viewing. 16-17 fL seems to be a really great sweet spot in that it looks extremely vibrant and natural without much in the way of fatigue. Some occasional jumps from dark to bright sequences can be aggravating though.

Hi Kris

How much horse power (light output) would a projector need to provide 30ft lambert white peaks for HDR on a larger screen like mine (14' wide 2.40 1.3 gain)?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 19, 2017, 08:47:54 AM
Hi Kris

How much horse power (light output) would a projector need to provide 30ft lambert white peaks for HDR on a larger screen like mine (14' wide 2.40 1.3 gain)?

Not Kris, but the calculation is pretty straight forward. At 1.3 gain, 2,541 lumens. UltraMatte150 microperf is 1.35 gain, so you are looking at 2,447 lumens needed to get 30FL on your screen.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 19, 2017, 09:38:25 AM
It will be very interesting to see what the Radiance Pro brings to HDR calibration for projectors. I have one in my rack ready to go once that feature is enabled with the Calman software. It is interesting that THX specifies 30 fL for UHD content. I can see shooting for a peak white of 30 fL with HDR to preserve some headroom but for SDR 4K content that is really bright on a large screen. I tried 30 fL with standard Blu-ray to see what I thought and it was just way too much for my viewing. 16-17 fL seems to be a really great sweet spot in that it looks extremely vibrant and natural without much in the way of fatigue. Some occasional jumps from dark to bright sequences can be aggravating though.
My thoughts exactly Kris. But in case it's not obvious 4K UHD content is native, not upscaled, in other words if it's a pixel-shift-pseudo-4K or HD upscaled to 4K then the recommendation is the usual 14-16 fL... The 30 fL recommendation is specifically regarding HDR and/or native 4K UHD, wherein I am thinking that more often than not these come together, or at the very least the extent to which they transpire concomitantly is increasing and hence the 30fL or not 30fL with SDR 4K is somewhat a moot point... But as it happens I agree with you :)

Where in my own mind I have 30fL intended for 4K UHD HDR and circa 16 fL for pretty much everything else ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 19, 2017, 10:00:08 AM
Hi Kris

How much horse power (light output) would a projector need to provide 30ft lambert white peaks for HDR on a larger screen like mine (14' wide 2.40 1.3 gain)?

Mike has you covered there. For that kind of light output you'd be in high laser mode and would use the HDR color mode, so no filter. You lose a bit on red saturation but the rest of the colors are about the same. With that setup you'd get around 45-50,00:1 with the laser dimming enabled, so big jump from your Sim2.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 19, 2017, 10:04:01 AM
Mike has you covered there. For that kind of light output you'd be in high laser mode and would use the HDR color mode, so no filter. You lose a bit on red saturation but the rest of the colors are about the same. With that setup you'd get around 45-50,00:1 with the laser dimming enabled, so big jump from your Sim2.

This certainly bodes well for my smaller screen(s) !!  :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on January 19, 2017, 10:05:23 AM
Sounds very impressive!  Factoring in that kind of contrast with everything else...must be a lot of 'wow' factor going on.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 19, 2017, 10:10:53 AM
On my screen I should be able to get a max of 37FL in scope and 58FL in 16:9 and that is in BT2020 mode. Max calibrated lumens in Rec709, max of 47FL scope and 83FL 16:9. Lack of brightness will not be a problem. :)
Obviously I will be closing down the iris/using medium power.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kaiser on January 19, 2017, 10:44:18 AM
What is the approximate loss of light output with the filter engaged vs HDR color mode?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 19, 2017, 11:25:34 AM
What is the approximate loss of light output with the filter engaged vs HDR color mode?

Told around 30%. Will let Kris say what he is actually seeing.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: thebland on January 19, 2017, 11:34:51 AM
On my screen I should be able to get a max of 37FL in scope and 58FL in 16:9 and that is in BT2020 mode. Max calibrated lumens in Rec709, max of 47FL scope and 83FL 16:9. Lack of brightness will not be a problem. :)
Obviously I will be closing down the iris/using medium power.

Thanks guys!

Mike, Kris, Craig :D, what type of output would I expect in 2.40 mode for a 4K HDR (peak white)? My throw to my 14' wide micro peer is ~26'.
Thanks!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 19, 2017, 12:28:21 PM
Thanks guys!

Mike, Kris, Craig :D, what type of output would I expect in 2.40 mode for a 4K HDR (peak white)? My throw to my 14' wide micro peer is ~26'.
Thanks!

I would guess around 26/27FL without the DCI filter in place.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on January 19, 2017, 12:48:28 PM
Is it true that longer throw means higher CR and shorter throw is higher lumens?  If so are there specs on the differences?

Also how does sharpness and chromatic aberrations change throughout the zoom range?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 19, 2017, 12:50:38 PM
Is it true that longer throw means higher CR and shorter throw is higher lumens?  If so are there specs on the differences?

Also how does sharpness and chromatic aberrations change throughout the zoom range?

That generally is true. You might have to wait for more reviews to answer your other questions though.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: thebland on January 19, 2017, 01:31:56 PM
I would guess around 26/27FL without the DCI filter in place.

Thanks, Craig - so, this is approximately what it might be based on my throw @2.40?

Again, appreciate the help here...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 19, 2017, 01:34:45 PM
Thanks, Craig - so, this is approximately what it might be based on my throw @2.40?

Again, appreciate the help here...

It was me (Mike) that answered you and yes that is based on the 2.40 width of your screen. You will have much higher brightness when shooting 16:9 onto your 2.40 screen.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 19, 2017, 02:38:50 PM
Here is a nice fact for people. I think most people know how QC works. Usually a set percentage of units are pulled and checked to make sure the units randomly selected meet specification. Well here in the US, with the 4500, that percentage is as high as you can get. Yep, 100%. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 19, 2017, 03:16:36 PM
Here is a nice fact for people. I think most people know how QC works. Usually a set percentage of units are pulled and checked to make sure the units randomly selected meet specification. Well here in the US, with the 4500, that percentage is as high as you can get. Yep, 100%. :)

JVC can send me one that is only 99.8% - if  they send it this week !  ;D
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on January 19, 2017, 06:05:31 PM
Here is a nice fact for people. I think most people know how QC works. Usually a set percentage of units are pulled and checked to make sure the units randomly selected meet specification. Well here in the US, with the 4500, that percentage is as high as you can get. Yep, 100%. :)

Considering that the projector is the price of a pretty nice car, they better test them all!

:)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 20, 2017, 12:37:21 AM
It was me (Mike) that answered you and yes that is based on the 2.40 width of your screen. You will have much higher brightness when shooting 16:9 onto your 2.40 screen.

One of the things I do on my current Sony (1000) is use HIGH lamp mode for 2.35:1 zoom, and LOW lamp for 16:9 zoom.  This has the nice side effect of normalising the brightness between the two presentation modes.  I'll be looking to do the same with the Z1 through a combination of laser power/iris.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 20, 2017, 06:48:33 AM
One of the things I do on my current Sony (1000) is use HIGH lamp mode for 2.35:1 zoom, and LOW lamp for 16:9 zoom.  This has the nice side effect of normalising the brightness between the two presentation modes.  I'll be looking to do the same with the Z1 through a combination of laser power/iris.

You can store lens settings, masking, fine convergence and anamorphic modes in a user memory.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 20, 2017, 07:31:57 AM
You can store lens settings, masking, fine convergence and anamorphic modes in a user memory.

They may have changed how you do this - looks like " lens memory " is now " mode " ( see page 50 of the owners manual ). Lamp power and other settings would be under " user " settings. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: kohe321 on January 20, 2017, 10:10:03 AM
Very glad to read all of these positive notes from the actual production models! Bodes well for the future. :)

Congratulations to everyone who has gotten theirs, or have them on the way. Seems like an incredible machine indeed.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 21, 2017, 11:23:20 AM
In case anyone is interested, with respect to my handson with the JVC RS4500/Z1 this Tuesday/Wednesday, in addition to posting comprehensive measurements of the JVC RS4500/Z1 in action, I will also be including a direct side-by-side head-to-head comparison versus the SONY 1100 and JVC X7000/RS500, wherein I will be including the comparative measurements and relevant data for these also as part of my review report.

Where I am intending on carrying out my measurements over the course of Tuesday (with a run over into Wednesday if the projector arrives late from JVC) with the intention of posting all the details on here sometime on Wednesday :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 21, 2017, 01:30:12 PM
In case anyone is interested, with respect to my handson with the JVC RS4500/Z1 this Tuesday/Wednesday, in addition to posting comprehensive measurements of the JVC RS4500/Z1 in action, I will also be including a direct side-by-side head-to-head comparison versus the SONY 1100 and JVC X7000/RS500, wherein I will be including the comparative measurements and relevant data for these also as part of my review report.

Where I am intending on carrying out my measurements over the course of Tuesday (with a run over into Wednesday if the projector arrives late from JVC) with the intention of posting all the details on here sometime on Wednesday :)

Looking forward to that, along with your subjective opinion. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 21, 2017, 04:11:42 PM
In case anyone is interested, with respect to my handson with the JVC RS4500/Z1 this Tuesday/Wednesday, in addition to posting comprehensive measurements of the JVC RS4500/Z1 in action, I will also be including a direct side-by-side head-to-head comparison versus the SONY 1100 and JVC X7000/RS500, wherein I will be including the comparative measurements and relevant data for these also as part of my review report.

Where I am intending on carrying out my measurements over the course of Tuesday (with a run over into Wednesday if the projector arrives late from JVC) with the intention of posting all the details on here sometime on Wednesday :)

What kind of screen and environment?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 21, 2017, 06:49:36 PM
What kind of screen and environment?
We are currently mid-process of constructing our new demonstration centre so I will be carrying out this exercise at a good friend of mine and business associate's demo rooms; where I will have the choice of three screen sizes, namely circa 3 metres, 3.8 metres, and 4.5 metres wide; with I believe Seymour Enlightor AT screen material, but I will be confirming all the details in my review. And the environment will be a properly blacked out room with low level ambient light reflections.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ozhdht on January 22, 2017, 12:35:28 AM
I'm up and running as recently posted on AVS. I'll add also that the unit has quite a bit of fan noise in high laser mode, not nearly as much in mid. I'll be experimenting with all modes as the evening goes on. Have to get back to it as it's already 7:30pm!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 22, 2017, 06:32:33 AM
We are currently mid-process of constructing our new demonstration centre so I will be carrying out this exercise at a good friend of mine and business associate's demo rooms; where I will have the choice of three screen sizes, namely circa 3 metres, 3.8 metres, and 4.5 metres wide; with I believe Seymour Enlightor AT screen material, but I will be confirming all the details in my review. And the environment will be a properly blacked out room with low level ambient light reflections.

Keep in mind that EN4K is close to 0.75 gain. I have EN4K.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 22, 2017, 06:33:22 AM
I'm up and running as recently posted on AVS. I'll add also that the unit has quite a bit of fan noise in high laser mode, not nearly as much in mid. I'll be experimenting with all modes as the evening goes on. Have to get back to it as it's already 7:30pm!

Looking forward to your thoughts. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 22, 2017, 06:41:55 AM
Though it is not listed on Chief's site. They do make a custom mount for the RS4500. I mentioned this early on in this thread. The mount is VCM105J. Kris is using this mount and has provided some pictures. Really like that it has so much adjustability, for centering the projector. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 22, 2017, 06:57:15 AM
I'm up and running as recently posted on AVS. I'll add also that the unit has quite a bit of fan noise in high laser mode, not nearly as much in mid. I'll be experimenting with all modes as the evening goes on. Have to get back to it as it's already 7:30pm!
Keep it coming :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 22, 2017, 07:03:15 AM
Keep in mind that EN4K is close to 0.75 gain. I have EN4K.
Thanks for the headsup Mike! I believe this is not the 4K version but one of the other two... I will obtain confirmation on Tuesday. That said, he's changed at least one of the screens since my last visit so he may have installed the 4K version... But either with I will be taking comprehensive measurements that will encompass accurately measuring the screen gain as opposed to relying on the published figures which you can Craig have astutely pointed out are almost always so inaccurate that they are meaningless. So I will be measuring what is it's ACTUAL gain and not whatever B.S. figure is listed... But Sssshhhh don't tell MR SEYMOUR I said this! ;) :D

And I am interested, what is your opinion on the performance of the EN4K as a material? It is in fact one of four that I have short-listed for assessment and so I would value your opinion... How would you rate it? :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 22, 2017, 08:08:42 AM
I'll add also that the unit has quite a bit of fan noise in high laser mode...

Oh! :/ 

I really wish they exhausted out the back - at least that way the noise is directed away from the audience and not towards it...  I also noted in the manual that they mention the heat might cause a heat haze on the image - so, again, why not exhaust out the back where this wouldn't be an issue...?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 22, 2017, 08:26:09 AM
Though it is not listed on Chief's site. They do make a custom mount for the RS4500. I mentioned this early on in this thread. The mount is VCM105J. Kris is using this mount and has provided some pictures. Really like that it has so much adjustability, for centering the projector. :)

That thing is a beast.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 22, 2017, 08:28:40 AM
Oh! :/ 

I really wish they exhausted out the back - at least that way the noise is directed away from the audience and not towards it...  I also noted in the manual that they mention the heat might cause a heat haze on the image - so, again, why not exhaust out the back where this wouldn't be an issue...?

Sure would be helpful in my situation. I have a projector closet - it could blow out the back door instead of my having elaborate venting schemes !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: TonyD on January 22, 2017, 09:30:24 AM
So this the new hangout? Nice little change from AVS.. nice to see some familiar faces (or names) :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 22, 2017, 10:53:03 AM
So this the new hangout? Nice little change from AVS.. nice to see some familiar faces (or names) :)

Welcome Tony !  :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 22, 2017, 01:46:38 PM
Noticed some new things today. Looks like the 1080p to 4K scaling in the JVC is doing a better job than both the Oppo and the Lumagen. If I feed a single pixel 1080p pattern to the JVC it looks fantastic, this was one of the first things I checked simply because they always looked so horrific on the Sony's. With a Sony 4K you couldn't even make out the grid and there was a lot of green, pink and yellow banding throughout the image. With the JVC it looks spot on, no discoloration and the grid is clean with fine pixel details easy to see. If I scale the image using the Oppo 105D to 4K, you can still make out the grid but there is discoloration in certain parts. If I use the Lumagen Radiance Pro, there is banding and discoloration in the image and it reminded me of the Sony, though not quite as bad. So from what I've seen so far, the best move for 1080p content to the JVC is straight in and not scaled from an outside source.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 22, 2017, 02:24:36 PM
I know you indicated that sync times were the same, but i did see this on the " other forum " - " I will also just quickly say, while loading some more test patterns and 4K clips up, the HDMI sync time is a joy compared to JVC's of past. "
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 22, 2017, 02:42:57 PM
So this the new hangout? Nice little change from AVS.. nice to see some familiar faces (or names) :)
Yes indeed... This is where the party is at Tony, and where only the best people hang-out, so you are more than welcome! ;)  :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 22, 2017, 04:11:29 PM
I know you indicated that sync times were the same, but i did see this on the " other forum " - " I will also just quickly say, while loading some more test patterns and 4K clips up, the HDMI sync time is a joy compared to JVC's of past. "

I'm not seeing much difference in synch times in my setup, so maybe his is acting different than mine. I will investigate further with different signal paths and see if that makes a difference.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: TonyD on January 22, 2017, 04:23:16 PM
Looking forward to some real world impressions of the RS4500. I expect mine to arrive late next week.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ozhdht on January 22, 2017, 05:05:10 PM
I'm not seeing much difference in synch times in my setup, so maybe his is acting different than mine. I will investigate further with different signal paths and see if that makes a difference.

I wouldn't say its lighting fast, but a definite improvement on the RS500/600. I was testing direct to the projector for testing with 4K discs and the sync timing there seemed a lot better than previously. When using passthrough with my McIntosh MX160 and HTPC, sync is improved by quite a few seconds. It's not lightning fast or anything, but enough to lessen the annoyance.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 22, 2017, 07:04:00 PM
Looking forward to some real world impressions of the RS4500. I expect mine to arrive late next week.

I'm hoping that mine arrives at late next week too!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: thebland on January 22, 2017, 07:05:53 PM
Looking forward to measured light output. What is spec'd would work for me... but what's the real world output?? Congrats to those that have them!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 22, 2017, 07:53:15 PM
Thanks for the headsup Mike! I believe this is not the 4K version but one of the other two... I will obtain confirmation on Tuesday. That said, he's changed at least one of the screens since my last visit so he may have installed the 4K version... But either with I will be taking comprehensive measurements that will encompass accurately measuring the screen gain as opposed to relying on the published figures which you can Craig have astutely pointed out are almost always so inaccurate that they are meaningless. So I will be measuring what is it's ACTUAL gain and not whatever B.S. figure is listed... But Sssshhhh don't tell MR SEYMOUR I said this! ;) :D

And I am interested, what is your opinion on the performance of the EN4K as a material? It is in fact one of four that I have short-listed for assessment and so I would value your opinion... How would you rate it? :)

EN4K is a good AT screen. I would also take a look at V6 DreamScreen. Really like that material.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ozhdht on January 23, 2017, 12:27:28 AM
Looking forward to measured light output. What is spec'd would work for me... but what's the real world output?? Congrats to those that have them!

I dug up an old AEMC light meter from years ago and tried to take some readings. It proved pretty useless unfortunately as anything but next to the screen proved too much for it. I may purchase another one locally tomorrow if I get a chance and try again.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 23, 2017, 02:04:08 AM
EN4K is a good AT screen. I would also take a look at V6 DreamScreen. Really like that material.
That's also on my short-list and in fact I have a 4.5m x 2.5m roll of it sitting right here waiting for testing and evaluation head-to-head against the others on my short-list, which is as per follows... in no particular order:

(1) DREAMSCREEN | V6 UltraWeave AT
(2) SEVERTSON | SAT-4K
(3) SEYMOUR SCREEN EXCELLENCE | Enlightor 4K
(4) FALCON SCREENS | HORIZON
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 23, 2017, 02:10:23 AM
Looking forward to measured light output. What is spec'd would work for me... but what's the real world output?? Congrats to those that have them!
You will be seeing light output measurements in just about every which way that's possible being posted on here ASAP following my evaluation tomorrow so watch this space... My review won't be as professional as Kris' review but will hopefully provide many of the answers and fill the void whilst everyone is waiting for Kris' review, myself included! ;) :D
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 23, 2017, 07:08:24 AM
I dug up an old AEMC light meter from years ago and tried to take some readings. It proved pretty useless unfortunately as anything but next to the screen proved too much for it. I may purchase another one locally tomorrow if I get a chance and try again.

Just to let you know, after a few posts have been approved, you do not have to go through the verification process. I have approved your first three. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 23, 2017, 08:02:00 AM
I dug up an old AEMC light meter from years ago and tried to take some readings. It proved pretty useless unfortunately as anything but next to the screen proved too much for it. I may purchase another one locally tomorrow if I get a chance and try again.

Stand next to the screen, point the meter back at the projector with a 100 IRE full field test pattern on, and measure the lux reading. Thanks.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on January 23, 2017, 11:36:21 AM
So, got the Z1 up and running today... Sharp as a razor, that´s for sure...! Light output has not impressed me thus far, seems to be lower than the prototype? I only had a short time reviewing it, and putting the laser at high, iris at -8 and flicking between laser modulation 1 and 2 it does look quite nice. Still, not "sold" quite yet, need to get it calibrated ASAP.

I´ll revert with more impressions tomorrow! :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 23, 2017, 12:08:24 PM
So, got the Z1 up and running today... Sharp as a razor, that´s for sure...! Light output has not impressed me thus far, seems to be lower than the prototype? I only had a short time reviewing it, and putting the laser at high, iris at -8 and flicking between laser modulation 1 and 2 it does look quite nice. Still, not "sold" quite yet, need to get it calibrated ASAP.

I´ll revert with more impressions tomorrow! :)

What size / type screen are you using again ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 23, 2017, 12:09:28 PM
On the RS4500, lens memory is now installation mode. It's on a separate page in the menu.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 23, 2017, 01:14:49 PM
What size / type screen are you using again ?

I am sure it is DreamScreen V6. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 23, 2017, 01:29:17 PM
I am sure it is DreamScreen V6. :)

Doh !  ;D
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on January 23, 2017, 02:24:05 PM
Calibration isn't going to change much as it is already 99% there out of the box. But it can confirm your settings in terms of desired fL on screen.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Peter Parker on January 23, 2017, 02:46:41 PM
Calibration isn't going to change much as it is already 99% there out of the box. But it can confirm your settings in terms of desired fL on screen.

Hi Kris,

How is it dong this - do you know? Is it from a calculation using data you give it, or an in built meter?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on January 23, 2017, 02:56:10 PM
last week I decided to go over the entire Hobbit and LOTR saga again, yesterday i took the opportunity to watch The Battle  of The Five Armies on the JVCZ1   :P :P :P
This looked amazing, took me right into the movie, today I watched gravity and i could not help thinking that it looked a bit dull.
I made a promise to myself to not go around and start messing around during the movie so i rode it out and then started looking what I was missing.

Turns out I was on low laser where i should be on mid with the iris closed down to about -8 to get the desired output i want.
I also got a feeling that some minor black crush was there but when putting on the Murideo in the chain the pluge pattern was still spot on. 16 invisible and 17 just disolved, so everything should be right, I am running a gamma of 2.3 I will try to adjust the gamma a click or two on the sliders in the gamma menu and see what happens.
I ran over to my other room and fired up the epson on the same scenes where I had my doughts, I had the impression that I had some more details in the blacks there also with the pluge pattern correctley set up.

So if anyone wants to try and compare some dark scenes with as much detail as possible to see what you come up with.
It could be that it is just the better blacks of the JVC that make me doubt, have to compare the side by side to make sure.
If I had the time one of the flowing days I will do that.
Have fun watching an playing with the new toy guys.

 8)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on January 23, 2017, 03:09:02 PM
It's a 14 feet wide 0.8 gain DreamScreen V6 AT in cinescope format, so it's a pretty big screen indeed... I'll try looking through some familiar source material tomorrow, and I'm not saying it's 'dim', I was just a little surprised initially, might be me having just read too much on forums lately, and I also have the rs600 to a/b compare to which is kinda interesting too... :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on January 23, 2017, 03:25:19 PM
It's a 14 feet wide 0.8 gain DreamScreen V6 AT in cinescope format, so it's a pretty big screen indeed... I'll try looking through some familiar source material tomorrow, and I'm not saying it's 'dim', I was just a little surprised initially, might be me having just read too much on forums lately, and I also have the rs600 to a/b compare to which is kinda interesting too... :)

Mine is 9 feet wide and I am on mid laser and iris about -8 in SDR on a screen research acoustic transparent screen (with black backing behind it) gain should be about the same as yours.
In HDR I use mid laser and iris full open with the HDR color space, looks pretty impressive to me on 9 feet wide.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 23, 2017, 03:36:01 PM
It's a 14 feet wide 0.8 gain DreamScreen V6 AT in cinescope format, so it's a pretty big screen indeed... I'll try looking through some familiar source material tomorrow, and I'm not saying it's 'dim', I was just a little surprised initially, might be me having just read too much on forums lately, and I also have the rs600 to a/b compare to which is kinda interesting too... :)

That's a pretty big screen - 83.4 square feet. 1600 lumens doesn't get you to much over 15 foot lamberts.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 23, 2017, 03:39:02 PM
Mine is 9 feet wide and I am on mid laser and iris about -8 in SDR on a screen research acoustic transparent screen (with black backing behind it) gain should be about the same as yours.
In HDR I use mid laser and iris full open with the HDR color space, looks pretty impressive to me on 9 feet wide.

I'm guessing that on my 118" wide StudioTek 130 G3 2.35:1 screen I'm going to be able to close the iris down in 2/3 power too. Same with my 122" diagonal 16:9 Stewart Cima Neve.

I think I'll be moving my seating closer - don't tell my wife  !  8)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ozhdht on January 23, 2017, 04:51:02 PM
I've also found on my SI pure white 1.3 150" scope, which is about 11.5" wide (but not filled completely in 2:35 due current throw distance is of current mount), that in mid SDR -7 or -8 Aperture gets things looking about right. I tested Force Awakens last night and found I was pretty happy with the image in Natural. I also got to test 3D with the beginning of Battle of the Five Armies, death of Smaug scene and aftermath. I was extremely impressed with the 3D capability, it's quite phenomenally bright and punchy and definitely the best projected 3D I've seen to date having come from VW1100 then RS600.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 23, 2017, 05:15:54 PM
Mine is 9 feet wide and I am on mid laser and iris about -8 in SDR on a screen research acoustic transparent screen (with black backing behind it) gain should be about the same as yours.
In HDR I use mid laser and iris full open with the HDR color space, looks pretty impressive to me on 9 feet wide.

Your screen is very close to what I will be using. 9' wide EN4K.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 23, 2017, 11:21:14 PM
That's a pretty big screen - 83.4 square feet. 1600 lumens doesn't get you to much over 15 foot lamberts.

1600 lumens?  Is that because the iris is at -8?

My screen is 15' 2.35:1 and 0.86 gain.  I'm hoping to target a (constant laser) minimum of 14 fL, but was hoping to be working with ~2400 lumens...  1600 lumens gives me 11fL...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on January 24, 2017, 01:42:08 AM
A bit more testing;

- Light output is actually pretty decent. Certainly higher than the RS600, although not 1000 lumens higher as you´d need to dial down the iris to -8 to maintain dynamics on the Z1, but I´d say 2-500 lumens more (needs to be measured)...

- Colors and stability stellar... Outputting SDR / 4K / REC709 / 10-bit video from a Panasonic UB900 player (no HDfury is needed after last firmware update by the way...). Have not tested HDR / P3, but since screen is 14 feet wide I´d say those features would probably not be very usable... My guestimate would be that 10 feet width is the maximum for P3, and if you´d want to use today´s "TV HDR" as well; 5 feet max?? :)

- Laser dimming mode 2 seems more visible than mode 1. Need to test this more, but the dimming certainly does wonders in terms of dynamics.

- Sharpness and overall detailing is simply amazing, the V6 fabric really shines alongside this machine!! ;)

In summary I´d say sharpness and detailing are the two main characteristics differentiating this projector from the current RS-line. Although the Sony 4K´s are very sharp too, the Z1 seems even sharper. Dynamics are certainly good too, I really did not feel like it fell through in that regards either, and I´m a sucker for blacks... Not as good as the RS600 though, which is just amazing in terms of blacks and overall dynamics. So; good, but not best in terms of dynamics... Still, the added light output, the increased sharpness, and overall performance makes this a very nice unit indeed.

I´d also say that it needs to run in high laser mode and as such be placed in a technical room if you´re using a screen width of more than 10 feet since you do need to dial down the iris quite a lot (-8 or more) to get the dynamics flowing.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 24, 2017, 01:56:14 AM
I´d also say that it needs to run in high laser mode and as such be placed in a technical room

Because of the noise?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on January 24, 2017, 02:39:15 AM
Because of the noise?

It´s not very noisy in high laser mode, and the pitch / hum is pretty low in frequency. Still, I would personally not want that noise level inside my own cinema room...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 24, 2017, 02:42:53 AM
It´s not very noisy in high laser mode, and the pitch / hum is pretty low in frequency. Still, I would personally not want that noise level inside my own cinema room...
How hot does it get? A simple hush box could be the answer, which may or may not require its own cooling/ventilation system depending on how hot the projector gets :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 24, 2017, 02:52:24 AM
How hot does it get? A simple hush box could be the answer, which may or may not require its own cooling/ventilation system depending on how hot the projector gets :)

I actually use a hush box in my cinema, but over the years I've kind of opened it up as projectors got quieter - first I removed the port glass (improved ANSI CR) and then the front and back "doors" (improved airflow, which meant I could turn off the noisier cold air feed).  I don't really want to go back to a closed box, particularly because of the port glass/ANSI issue...

My hope is that the extra noise is of the broadband type that disappears into the background rather than any kind of pitched whining.  My old Barco CRT used to scream when the image got brighter, yet, funnily enough I never really had a problem with it due to the wow factor of having a home cinema :)  These days my tolerances are much lower...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 24, 2017, 05:40:05 AM
I actually use a hush box in my cinema, but over the years I've kind of opened it up as projectors got quieter - first I removed the port glass (improved ANSI CR) and then the front and back "doors" (improved airflow, which meant I could turn off the noisier cold air feed).  I don't really want to go back to a closed box, particularly because of the port glass/ANSI issue...

My hope is that the extra noise is of the broadband type that disappears into the background rather than any kind of pitched whining.  My old Barco CRT used to scream when the image got brighter, yet, funnily enough I never really had a problem with it due to the wow factor of having a home cinema :)  These days my tolerances are much lower...

Good chance, that you would not have to fully close up your hush box. You will have to test it and see.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 24, 2017, 05:49:41 AM
Indeed.  Next Tuesday is my turn to play...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stanger89 on January 24, 2017, 06:28:34 AM
Outputting SDR / 4K / REC709 / 10-bit video from a Panasonic UB900 player (no HDfury is needed after last firmware update by the way...).

OT - What Firmware update is that, I thought the UB900 could always do SDR/Rec.709 without an HDFury.  Or are you saying the UB900 can do SDR/Rec.2020 without an HDFury now?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DLCPhoto on January 24, 2017, 06:29:00 AM
Outputting SDR / 4K / REC709 / 10-bit video from a Panasonic UB900 player (no HDfury is needed after last firmware update by the way...).

Are you certain about this?  I've been unable to confirm this anywhere else so far.  On the "other" forum, the official word is 1.51 as the latest firmware, without this feature.  At least one reports 1.69, but doesn't specify that SDR/BT2020 is a feature, and Panasonic reportedly denies the existence of this 1.69 at this point.

Sorry for the threadjack, but this is a potentially very significant development.

ETA:

Looks like great minds think alike - we were both posting the same thing, at the same time.
!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on January 24, 2017, 06:52:22 AM
OT - What Firmware update is that, I thought the UB900 could always do SDR/Rec.709 without an HDFury.  Or are you saying the UB900 can do SDR/Rec.2020 without an HDFury now?

Indeed 4K SDR/REC709 is (was) always possible, there is and was no need for HD FURY to do this, so as far as I know there is still no possibility to do SDR BT2020 without the Fury.

if someone knows about the opposite to be true then please feel free to enlighten and provide a link with the official statement and firmware  :-X :-X
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on January 24, 2017, 06:55:23 AM
Quote
I think I'll be moving my seating closer - don't tell my wife  !  8)

I would never ever do that to anyone sir  ;D wifes (at least mine) don't have a say in these matters  ;) she can paint my living room purple with green dots, I don't care but don't mess with  dads room  :-X :-X :-X
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on January 24, 2017, 08:23:07 AM
OT - What Firmware update is that, I thought the UB900 could always do SDR/Rec.709 without an HDFury.  Or are you saying the UB900 can do SDR/Rec.2020 without an HDFury now?

Sure, but we were unable to get it to output 4K at the same time until we installed the last firmware, for all I know it might be another reason for it suddenly working... :)

EDIT: If you would want P3 and no HDR you still would need to use a HDfury... As for getting 4K outputted while doing SDR / rec.709 it seems this has been working all along so I guess it was just coincidal it did not work until firmware was updated at our end...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 24, 2017, 08:27:36 AM
I would never ever do that to anyone sir  ;D wifes (at least mine) don't have a say in these matters  ;) she can paint my living room purple with green dots, I don't care but don't mess with  dads room  :-X :-X :-X

Hey - my wife is cool with my buying an RS4500. Sometimes you need to give a little to keep them happy. Hell, you might even need to watch The Notebook with them every few years ( not that anyone would admit to that ).  ::)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 24, 2017, 08:35:50 AM
I actually use a hush box in my cinema, but over the years I've kind of opened it up as projectors got quieter - first I removed the port glass (improved ANSI CR) and then the front and back "doors" (improved airflow, which meant I could turn off the noisier cold air feed).  I don't really want to go back to a closed box, particularly because of the port glass/ANSI issue...

My hope is that the extra noise is of the broadband type that disappears into the background rather than any kind of pitched whining.  My old Barco CRT used to scream when the image got brighter, yet, funnily enough I never really had a problem with it due to the wow factor of having a home cinema :)  These days my tolerances are much lower...

I'd guess no port glass is needed, but a way to move air out is always good. I use an inline duct fan to exhaust the hot air out. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 24, 2017, 09:05:00 AM
JVC RS4500 demo at 10am today, if you happen to be in San Diego, CA

AVAD
8195 Mercury Court Suite 100
San Diego, CA  92111
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 24, 2017, 09:31:36 AM
I would never ever do that to anyone sir  ;D wifes (at least mine) don't have a say in these matters  ;) she can paint my living room purple with green dots, I don't care but don't mess with  dads room  :-X :-X :-X

My wife and I came to an agreement early in for the theater room. Said I could do whatever I wanted. So the first thing I did was paint it all black. Figured after that I have complete control. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 24, 2017, 10:22:25 AM
A bit more testing;

- Light output is actually pretty decent. Certainly higher than the RS600, although not 1000 lumens higher as you´d need to dial down the iris to -8 to maintain dynamics on the Z1, but I´d say 2-500 lumens more (needs to be measured)...

- Colors and stability stellar... Outputting SDR / 4K / REC709 / 10-bit video from a Panasonic UB900 player (no HDfury is needed after last firmware update by the way...). Have not tested HDR / P3, but since screen is 14 feet wide I´d say those features would probably not be very usable... My guestimate would be that 10 feet width is the maximum for P3, and if you´d want to use today´s "TV HDR" as well; 5 feet max?? :)

- Laser dimming mode 2 seems more visible than mode 1. Need to test this more, but the dimming certainly does wonders in terms of dynamics.

- Sharpness and overall detailing is simply amazing, the V6 fabric really shines alongside this machine!! ;)

In summary I´d say sharpness and detailing are the two main characteristics differentiating this projector from the current RS-line. Although the Sony 4K´s are very sharp too, the Z1 seems even sharper. Dynamics are certainly good too, I really did not feel like it fell through in that regards either, and I´m a sucker for blacks... Not as good as the RS600 though, which is just amazing in terms of blacks and overall dynamics. So; good, but not best in terms of dynamics... Still, the added light output, the increased sharpness, and overall performance makes this a very nice unit indeed.

I´d also say that it needs to run in high laser mode and as such be placed in a technical room if you´re using a screen width of more than 10 feet since you do need to dial down the iris quite a lot (-8 or more) to get the dynamics flowing.

This is great info. I'm thinking that this projector will throw a reference picture on a 10' wide screen - which is what I have . Can't wait to see this this on my StudioTek 130 !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 24, 2017, 12:06:42 PM
Sure, but we were unable to get it to output 4K at the same time until we installed the last firmware, for all I know it might be another reason for it suddenly working... :)

EDIT: If you would want P3 and no HDR you still would need to use a HDfury... As for getting 4K outputted while doing SDR / rec.709 it seems this has been working all along so I guess it was just coincidal it did not work until firmware was updated at our end...

Or buy the Oppo. No HD Fury needed. But Oppo does not quite provide as good of an image, but I am pretty sure after next firmware update it will. Oppo is supposed to be adding the slider adjustment, like the Panny.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 24, 2017, 12:19:35 PM
Or buy the Oppo. No HD Fury needed. But Oppo does not quite provide as good of an image, but I am pretty sure after next firmware update it will. Oppo is supposed to be adding the slider adjustment, like the Panny.

Considering that the Panny works now, and I have the Fury, I'll stick with that for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 24, 2017, 05:53:25 PM
Really happy with my Panny UB900 + HDFury combo. Best of HDR and HDR to SDR conversion. I'm sure at some point Oppo will get things figured out and get to the same level or better than the Panny.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on January 25, 2017, 05:52:18 AM
I can't get over the feeling that i am losing some details in the black levels, both the Murideo pluge and the Masciola patterns resolve 17 and clip 16 so everything seems ok with test pattern. But compared to the Epson for instance i get more shadow detail.

I have set gamma at 2.2 but tried to push the black in the Gamma setting to +6, just by looking at the picture that seems to work out better for resolving shadow detail.


I will measure the gamma curve both with the slider to 0 and to +6 to see the results, does anyone has the same feeling about the black levels or am I just seeing ghosts?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 25, 2017, 05:55:47 AM
I can't get over the feeling that i am losing some details in the black levels

Calibration issue...?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on January 25, 2017, 05:59:55 AM
Calibration issue...?

No because I have calibrated everything like it should be, I am a certified ISF calibrator so that end should be ok ;-)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 25, 2017, 06:03:55 AM
No because I have calibrated everything like it should be, I am a certified ISF calibrator so that end should be ok ;-)

3D LUT or just standard controls?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 25, 2017, 06:04:57 AM
Have you tried different laser dimming modes?  Perhaps one of them is crushing blacks?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on January 25, 2017, 06:05:28 AM
3D LUT or just standard controls?

Standard controls.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on January 25, 2017, 06:07:05 AM
Have you tried different laser dimming modes?  Perhaps one of them is crushing blacks?

Tried about every combination possible but keep having the same result.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: kohe321 on January 25, 2017, 08:08:53 AM
If you have a proper camera with manual controls, you could try and take a picture of the screens with both projectors showing the same image. If you raise the exposure to the point where the camera does not crush any details itself (which an iphone or anything like that will do), perhaps this could show if one is displaying pixel information in shadows that the other is not.

Running back and forth while trying to remember what you saw sounds kind of difficult. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 25, 2017, 08:29:20 AM
If you have a proper camera with manual controls, you could try and take a picture of the screens with both projectors showing the same image. If you raise the exposure to the point where the camera does not crush any details itself (which an iphone or anything like that will do), perhaps this could show if one is displaying pixel information in shadows that the other is not.

Running back and forth while trying to remember what you saw sounds kind of difficult
. :)

Ya, but a great way to get some exercise while watching video !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 25, 2017, 10:23:46 AM
I can't get over the feeling that i am losing some details in the black levels, both the Murideo pluge and the Masciola patterns resolve 17 and clip 16 so everything seems ok with test pattern. But compared to the Epson for instance i get more shadow detail.

I have set gamma at 2.2 but tried to push the black in the Gamma setting to +6, just by looking at the picture that seems to work out better for resolving shadow detail.


I will measure the gamma curve both with the slider to 0 and to +6 to see the results, does anyone has the same feeling about the black levels or am I just seeing ghosts?

For those following along, Jetson posted this response to his above post:

By Jetsen
"I think its more me being paranoid, I am running between two rooms because the Epson and the Z1 are on different home cinema's. I just put the same still of a movie on both machines and ran like crazy from one room to the other, I know I know its not the way to do this and i should know better but I did not have the time to move one.

So for now lets keep it to me being paranoid, but if you guys could also verify it would make me mote at ease :-X"
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 25, 2017, 03:49:21 PM
Tried about every combination possible but keep having the same result.

I don't recall Kris mentioning this. You should email him or PM him and see what settings he is using compared to you.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on January 26, 2017, 01:20:21 AM
Keep seeing that laser dimmer going bananas way too much... Seems to be worse in laser mode 2, but is certainly dims very weird in mode 1 as well... Hopefully this will be addressed in a firmware shortly though, seems really more like a bug than a "feature" to me... The Epson laser also uses laser dimming, but is not bouncing back and forth like this in regular scenes, however the "fade to black" on the Epson is very visible compared to the JVC.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 26, 2017, 02:49:27 AM
Looks like I'm joining the fun (frustration?), as I am now expecting installation this afternoon  ;D
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 26, 2017, 03:00:59 AM
I have set gamma at 2.2 but tried to push the black in the Gamma setting to +6, just by looking at the picture that seems to work out better for resolving shadow detail.... I will measure the gamma curve both with the slider to 0 and to +6 to see the results, does anyone has the same feeling about the black levels or am I just seeing ghosts?
There are some things to be aware of regards the set up and calibration of this projector which can cause detail loss at both ends of the spectrum, but are resolvable... I will include the details within my report that I am in process of completing for posting on here later... :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on January 26, 2017, 03:06:34 AM
There are some things to be aware of regards the set up and calibration of this projector which can cause detail loss at both ends of the spectrum, but are resolvable... I will include the details within my report that I am in process of completing for posting on here later... :)

If you are talking about the white clipping and Super white function, I know ;-)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 26, 2017, 03:49:18 AM
If you are talking about the white clipping and Super white function, I know ;-)
Ha! I never doubted you didn't Werner! :D Nothing gets past your radar, that's for sure!

With respect to that particular matter I've already fed back to JVC the suggestion that they might like to change the factory default setting via the next firmware update such that the default is the correct setting, because I have a feeling, and I am sure you will agree, that there's going to be more than a few instances of consumers viewing their shiny new JVC RS4500/Z1 without any highlights detail above 235 because of this... But not your customers of course  ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 26, 2017, 04:00:17 AM
I've always clipped my projectosr above 235 to preserve brightness.  For SDR, I'd be inclined to do the same, even with the Z1.   We shall see, I guess. 

Just took a final reading off my Sony 1000.  6.5fL off my screen in HIGH mode  :-X  The most I've ever achieved in my room is a blinding 11fL, and immediately down as the bulb dims.   Looking forward to see what I can squeeze out of the Z1.  Two hours ETA. 

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 26, 2017, 04:25:31 AM
I've always clipped my projectosr above 235 to preserve brightness.  For SDR, I'd be inclined to do the same, even with the Z1.
Good idea. Where brightness is a limiting factor that's certainly an option, but personally I am a detail freak... I just can't stand crushed shadow detail or clipped/blown highlights... I remember the gentleman who runs the THX professional video calibration opening the training by apologising to the whole class that he was going to forever after ruin our enjoyment of watching movies because we would not be able to view an image ever again without seeing everything that wrong with it such as in this regard, and unfortunately he was right... I've been totally screwed ever since :'( ;D

We shall see, I guess... Just took a final reading off my Sony 1000.  6.5fL off my screen in HIGH mode  :-X  The most I've ever achieved in my room is a blinding 11fL, and immediately down as the bulb dims. Looking forward to see what I can squeeze out of the Z1. Two hours ETA.
I am very much looking forward to your feedback in particular given the nature of your environment and especially your screen size and how you manage to get the Z1/RS4500 to perform with it :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 26, 2017, 04:39:50 AM
Good idea. Where brightness is a limiting factor that's certainly an option, but personally I am a detail freak... I just can't stand crushed shadow detail or clipped/blown highlights...

Well, I would never deliberately crush blacks.  But for SDR, clipping above 235 is fine; been viewing digital films for 18 years now and never missed the details up there.  Of course, if I have more than enough light to hit my targets AND preserve the 235+ space then, why not? :)

Quote
I am very much looking forward to your feedback in particular given the nature of your environment and especially your screen size and how you manage to get the Z1/RS4500 to perform with it :)

Me too!  ;D
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on January 26, 2017, 05:41:15 AM
At the moment i am at mid laser, iris closed down to -7 and getting 16.5 Ftlmb on my 9ft acoustic 4K clear pix screen.
Adjusted the gamma to custom 2.3 and raised the gamma black level up to +1, I must say that you get use to having a decent amount of light output without thinking you are burning lamps like crazy ;-)

I think i will settle at this light output for a few movies and see what that gives, in HDR I am now at full open iris in mid laser but don't know if that will be sufficient, did not have time to actually watch some movies in that setting.
Can anyone chime in on wat you guys have  settled for in laser/iris settings and corresponding light output on some different screen sizes?

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 26, 2017, 08:16:02 AM
Keep seeing that laser dimmer going bananas way too much... Seems to be worse in laser mode 2, but is certainly dims very weird in mode 1 as well... Hopefully this will be addressed in a firmware shortly though, seems really more like a bug than a "feature" to me... The Epson laser also uses laser dimming, but is not bouncing back and forth like this in regular scenes, however the "fade to black" on the Epson is very visible compared to the JVC.

That's interesting, as Kris said he couldn't see the laser dimming work while watching movies unless he really looked for it. I wonder why yours seems less well behaved ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on January 26, 2017, 08:28:16 AM
That's interesting, as Kris said he couldn't see the laser dimming work while watching movies unless he really looked for it. I wonder why yours seems less well behaved ?

Yes, and it´s very visible, I mean like moving up and down 500 lumens in what basically looks like the same frame give and take some small alterations. Seems as if the steps in certain frame sequences are way too steep - on my unit at least...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 26, 2017, 08:51:43 AM
Yes, and it´s very visible, I mean like moving up and down 500 lumens in what basically looks like the same frame give and take some small alterations. Seems as if the steps in certain frame sequences are way too steep - on my unit at least...

In post 137 Kris said " I can say that the dynamic laser modulation has a PROFOUND influence on perceived contrast and so far has almost zero noticeable artifacts in use. ".

I wonder what is going on with your unit? Doesn't sound like what Kris described.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 26, 2017, 09:43:32 AM
OUR TWO CENTS:

SUMMARY:
The JVC DLA-RS4500/Z1 is a mixed bag. It impresses with comparatively superior performance in some respects only to disappoint with respect to others. Whether overall one considers that what is intended to be the new flagship projector delivers an acceptable minimum quality standard of video performance for its price tag of $35,000 we will present the salient facts and let you draw your own conclusions.

THX CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL VIDEO CALIBRATION (by me) | EQUIPMENT USED:
- Colorimetry Research CR-300 0.8nm Spectroradiometer
- Klein K10-A Tristimulus Colorimeter
- SpectraCal C6-HDR Colorimeter
- AEMC CA813 Illuminance Meter
- Murideo SIX-G 4K HDR Reference Pattern Generator
- MSI TITAN X HTPC
- ChromaPure 3 Professional THX Edition (with special thanks to Tom Huffman for his invaluable technical support in getting our shiny new CR-300 spectro working properly with this)

With CEM DT-805 Sound Level Meter to measure operating noise.

SCREEN & ENVIRONMENT:
3.8 metres / 12.5 feet wide projection screen, with Seymour Screen Excellence Enlightor PRO Screen Material, within blacked-out room:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-Z1RS4500/i-jH2ZGHh/0/L/ENVIRONMENT%20PHOTO-L.jpg)

POSITIVES:

● Excellent out-of-the-box performance as compared with calibrated

● Razor sharp image due to superior lenses and associated hardware

● Superb colour performance and accuracy

● Laser dimming feature perceivably significantly enhances the contrast and black levels

● Initial firmware is very good indeed with comparatively very few issues, bugs, and/or malfunctions that need ironing out with subsequent firmware updates

NEGATIVES:

● Disappointing ON/OFF Contrast that is less than forecast by JVC.

● Disappointing brightness output that is less than forecast by JVC.

● Laser dimming feature performance inconsistent and problematic (Mode 2 particularly).

● 40% reduction in brightness output with DCI-P3 colour filter.

● Prone to running hot and when it does the fans switch to 'turbo' mode and the operating noise hits the roof. MAXIMUM operating noise (when running hot): HIGH LASER [Max 70dB / 1m 63dB / 2m 56dB] | MEDIUM LASER [Max 63dB / 1m 57dB / 2m 54dB] | LOW LASER [Max 56dB / 1m 54dB / 2m 51dB]
That said, operating noise is easily remedied and becomes a non-issue via simply installing the projector into an air conditioned hush box/projection booth or outside the room.

● Expensive.

PRE & POST CALIBRATION MEASUREMENTS:

GRAYSCALE:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-Z1RS4500/i-ZsN4g8r/0/XL/JVC%20Z1%20-%201%20-%20GRAYSCALE-XL.jpg)

CCT D65 ACCURACY:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-Z1RS4500/i-Vf7MVJW/0/XL/JVC%20Z1%20-%203%20-%20CCT-XL.jpg)

GAMMA: (Calibrated to just below 2.4 with deliberate curve toward 2.5 at low end to help compensate for low contrast performance)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/JVC-DLA-Z1RS4500/i-mks5t9j/0/XL/JVC%20Z1%20-%202%20-%20GAMMA-XL.jpg)[/color]
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 26, 2017, 10:00:34 AM
I wonder if screen size / manual iris position affects the laser dimming being visible? Jetsen, are you seeing laser dimming pumping or no ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on January 26, 2017, 10:25:33 AM
I wonder if screen size / manual iris position affects the laser dimming being visible? Jetsen, are you seeing laser dimming pumping or no ?

It does pop up once in a while but i don't see the amount of pumping that is being described by arrow and Lygren.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 26, 2017, 10:32:04 AM
It does pop up once in a while but i don't see the amount of pumping that is being described by arrow and Lygren.

Sure - just about all dynamic iris's " pop up " once in a while. Sounds like something is not working correctly on Lygren's projector. Or settings are causing their's ( Arrow and Lygren's ) to misbehave, and yours and Kris to not misbehave. Odd !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 26, 2017, 10:36:58 AM
Yes, and it´s very visible, I mean like moving up and down 500 lumens in what basically looks like the same frame give and take some small alterations. Seems as if the steps in certain frame sequences are way too steep - on my unit at least...
Jon, unfortunately we share your findings regarding this and personally we don't like the current functionality of the dynamic laser dimming feature... Perhaps JVC can improve its functioning with later tweaks but as of right now I would go as far to say that Mode 2 is not useable at all (it's distracting), and Mode 1 is inconsistent and problematic and so I would be inclined to keep it turned off for now... but that's just our opinion... Others might like what it does.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 26, 2017, 10:50:47 AM
OUR TWO CENTS:

SUMMARY:

The JVC DLA-RS4500/Z1 is a mixed bag, in it both surprises with comparatively superior performance in some respects only to shockingly disappoint with respect to others.
Whether overall one considers that what is intended to be the new flagship projector delivers an acceptable minimum quality standard of video performance for its price tag of $35,000 we will present the salient facts and let you draw your own conclusions.

THX CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL VIDEO CALIBRATION (by me) | EQUIPMENT USED:
- Colorimetry Research CR-300 0.8nm Spectroradiometer
- Klein K10-A Tristimulus Colorimeter
- Murideo SIX-G 4K HDR Reference Pattern Generator

With CEM DT-805 Sound Level Meter to measure operating noise.

3.8 metres / 12.5 feet wide projection screen, with Seymour Screen Excellence Enlightor PRO Screen Material.

POSITIVES:

● Excellent out-of-the-box performance with respect to grayscale and gamma in particular

● Razor sharp image due to superior lenses and associated hardware

● Superb colour performance and accuracy once calibrated

● Laser dimming feature perceivably significantly enhances the contrast and black levels

● Initial firmware is very good indeed with comparatively very few issues, bugs, and/or malfunctions that need ironing out with subsequent firmware updates

NEGATIVES:

● Disappointingly poor ON/OFF Contrast that is in reality very considerably less than promised / forecast to us by JVC.

● Disappointingly poor brightness output that is in reality very considerably less than promised / forecast to us by JVC

● Laser dimming feature performance inconsistent and problematic (Mode 2 particularly)

● Maximum screen size of circa 3.8 metres / 12.5 feet wide to achieve THX recommended 16fL with no lumens headroom and 8,200:1 ON/OFF contrast (without colour filter)

At minimum throw distance, with maximum zoom, iris set to fully open, and laser set to high, all of which to yield the absolute maximum lumens, this yielded 16.2fL, with 1,416 lumens on screen and 1,749 lumens factoring out the screen gain (with the screen in reality yielding a measured in-situ actual gain of 0.81).

● High operating noise: HIGH LASER [Max 70dB / 1m 63dB / 2m 56dB] | MEDIUM LASER [Max 63dB / 1m 57dB / 2m 54dB] | LOW LASER [Max 56dB / 1m 54dB / 2m 51dB]

● Expensive

● Updated ‘lesser’ models deliver superior video performance in more ways than one but at a fraction of the cost and hence we recommend the JVC X9500/RS620 as a possible alternative.

Sounds like JVC in your country is not inspecting all of the units. I will not comment on all the rest of your numbers, but your noise level is much higher than it should be. That unit should have been rejected for noise alone.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on January 26, 2017, 10:56:35 AM
The Z1 is to the RS1 as the Z620 is to the RS620

I don't want to wait for the Z620.  Maybe the Z2 :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 26, 2017, 10:59:52 AM
That's interesting, as Kris said he couldn't see the laser dimming work while watching movies unless he really looked for it. I wonder why yours seems less well behaved ?
I have a feeling that its performance may be influenced by a number of factors including how hard you are or not driving the projector... For example, it might perform more stable and better with the laser set to medium as opposed to high... But I am merely speculating here...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 26, 2017, 11:05:49 AM
Sounds like JVC in your country is not inspecting all of the units. I will not comment on all the rest of your numbers, but your noise level is much higher than it should be. That unit should have been rejected for noise alone.
Mike, I am sorry to say that, after the fiasco at CES, this unit was hand-selected and delivered by JVC, JVC attended my evaluation where I showed them all my equipment, showed them my measurements and demonstrated the unit to them, they witnessed everything themselves including the noise... And with the utmost respect our performance numbers are far from unique... but are confirmed by multiple independant third parties, in other words we are only confirming what the likes of Jetsen and others have already reported... where I have to say, DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER! ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 26, 2017, 11:20:07 AM
I have a feeling that its performance may be influenced by a number of factors including how hard you are or not driving the projector... For example, it might perform more stable and better with the laser set to medium as opposed to high... But I am merely speculating here...

That may be true. I have a feeling this could be a reference projector for smaller screens. Kris's screen is higher gain and much smaller than the one you used. I'll bet he had the iris closed much more, so that the dynamic dimming doesn't work as hard. That said, it sure lit up a big screen at Cedia.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on January 26, 2017, 11:36:52 AM
Hmmm, those noise levels simply don´t add up with my impressions either, Arrow... We´ve got a number of Alcons amps running closeby the projector though, might have camouflaged my initial impression to some extent, I´ll try turning those off and listen for noise from our unit tomorrow.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 26, 2017, 11:38:44 AM
I concur with Arrow's observations.  This projector CAN put out a huge amount of noise if room temperature goes up.  I've had to reactivate my cooling feed and ensure the room is up to temperature before running the projector to avoid the aircon dumping super heated air into the room and upsetting it.  Once the film is running it tends to get lost in the background until the soundtracks goes quiet.

Light output is poor - I measure ~1600 lumens @D65 from a 26' throw with iris wide open.

BUT, it's also the best image I've seen so far in my room, and the constant brightness light source means no dimming, like bulbs, so I'll probably be keeping it.  Need more viewing.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 26, 2017, 11:47:35 AM
Mike, I am sorry to say that, after the fiasco at CES, this unit was hand-selected and delivered by JVC, JVC attended my evaluation where I showed them all my equipment, showed them my measurements and demonstrated the unit to them, they witnessed everything themselves including the noise... And with the utmost respect our performance numbers are far from unique... but are confirmed by multiple independant third parties, in other words we are only confirming what the likes of Jetsen and others have already reported... where I have to say, DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER! ;)

All I can tell you is JVC US would not have passed that projector, with those noise levels. That noise level is higher than the VS version.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 26, 2017, 11:50:14 AM
I concur with Arrow's observations.  This projector CAN put out a huge amount of noise if room temperature goes up.  I've had to reactivate my cooling feed and ensure the room is up to temperature before running the projector to avoid the aircon dumping super heated air into the room and upsetting it.  Once the film is running it tends to get lost in the background until the soundtracks goes quiet.

Light output is poor - I measure ~1600 lumens @D65 from a 26' throw with iris wide open.

BUT, it's also the best image I've seen so far in my room, and the constant brightness light source means no dimming, like bulbs, so I'll probably be keeping it.  Need more viewing.

Mark, remind me screen size, aspect ratio and fabric?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 26, 2017, 12:54:15 PM
Screen size is 180" 2.35, screen research CP2 gain 0.86.  Throw 26'.  Lux measured at screen with CA183 and off screen with Klein K10A. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 26, 2017, 01:01:02 PM
Screen size is 180" 2.35, screen research CP2 gain 0.86.  Throw 26'.  Lux measured at screen with CA183 and off screen with Klein K10A.

That's a pretty good sized screen !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 26, 2017, 01:27:51 PM
That may be true. I have a feeling this could be a reference projector for smaller screens. Kris's screen is higher gain and much smaller than the one you used. I'll bet he had the iris closed much more, so that the dynamic dimming doesn't work as hard. That said, it sure lit up a big screen at Cedia.
Bingo! That is precisely why we are recommending this projector for use with screens of circa 2.7 metres / 9 feet wide or less which is the size that allows you you make use of the various options that significantly positively influence image contrast such as closing down the iris... Where like I have said, this projector does produce a very nice looking image when it is NOT operating balls-to-the-wall maximum everything minimum contrast with no lumens headroom and (again speculating) negatively affecting the performance of the laser dynamic dimming... In other words, with the right application, namely 'sensible'/appropriate screen size in a low ambient light level room you can achieve a lovely looking image with this projector... But if you want high brightness and deep blacks on a giant sized screen then this projector is not the correct choice. :)

This does beg the question, what is the demand for a $35,000 reference projector for small-to-medium sized screens? I honestly have no idea what is the answer to that question... Thoughts?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 26, 2017, 01:39:49 PM
Screen size is 180" 2.35, screen research CP2 gain 0.86.  Throw 26'.  Lux measured at screen with CA183 and off screen with Klein K10A.

Based on the screen gain you gave, that is 2,000 lumens at your throw.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Ccool96 on January 26, 2017, 01:56:41 PM
Based on the screen gain you gave, that is 2,000 lumens at your throw.

Mike, all I see is where he posted lumen output. Did he post fL measurement somewhere?

I don't see how you calculated 2000 lumens based on the info he provided.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 26, 2017, 01:59:43 PM
Bingo! That is precisely why we are recommending this projector for use with screens of circa 2.7 metres / 9 feet wide or less which is the size that allows you you make use of the various options that significantly positively influence image contrast such as closing down the iris... Where like I have said, this projector does produce a very nice looking image when it is NOT operating balls-to-the-wall maximum everything minimum contrast with no lumens headroom and (again speculating) negatively affecting the performance of the laser dynamic dimming... In other words, with the right application, namely 'sensible'/appropriate screen size in a low ambient light level room you can achieve a lovely looking image with this projector... But if you want high brightness and deep blacks on a giant sized screen then this projector is not the correct choice. :)

This does beg the question, what is the demand for a $35,000 reference projector for small-to-medium sized screens? I honestly have no idea what is the answer to that question... Thoughts?

Well, my Sim2 Lumis Host ( ( $35K ) never achieved over 1100 lumens in low lamp ( no point in starting in high lamp as it won't be that bright but for a moment in time ). It also had about 6.9K:1 native and 12- 15K:1  dynamic contrast. I did a few shoot outs between that projector and my then new Sony VW600. Quite a few people preferred the Lumis. The Lumis was supposed to hit 3000 lumens, but I never saw even close to that. That $35K projector sold quite well ( and is still selling I imagine ).

I have a feeling that the RS4500 is having some initial QC teething pain. I say that because things are all over the place lumen / db / dynamic dimming wise. Was the unit at CES as loud as the one you have now? Certainly didn't seem loud at CES, even in full power for HDR. Mike and I will be getting ours next week it sounds like, so we will be able to add the the knowledge base.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on January 26, 2017, 02:51:33 PM
Everyone that is going to ISE, I would very much like it if we could have a schort (or long ;-) meeting(meaning a drink and a nice chat) in Amsterdam.
I also think it would be good if at some point, we got together at the JVC booth, not to start a war but just to give som insight of what kind of remarks the different users like ourselves have.

I know they are always been very informative an willing to cooperate with me in all those years as a client, i think everyone can benefit from giving as much info and user remarks as possible.

And arrow still has to buy me a drink, so I will not take no for an answer ;-)

 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Andreas21 on January 26, 2017, 02:52:04 PM
I am very happy I never even considered this projector, as it sound like a real flop from JVC that is not delivering even close to specs. I am very disappointed with this and at the same time I am happy I did not preorder and spent all that cash on a projector performing worse than the 1080p e-shift models (and then I am talking about my own HT)...

A RS620 is most likely being ordered in a couple of weeks... :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 26, 2017, 03:16:41 PM
Everyone that is going to ISE, I would very much like it if we could have a schort (or long ;-) meeting(meaning a drink and a nice chat) in Amsterdam.
I also think it would be good if at some point, we got together at the JVC booth, not to start a war but just to give som insight of what kind of remarks the different users like ourselves have.

I know they are always been very informative an willing to cooperate with me in all those years as a client, i think everyone can benefit from giving as much info and user remarks as possible.

And arrow still has to buy me a drink, so I will not take no for an answer ;-)

Always good to give feedback. I'm also curious as to why one unit measures 1600 lumens and another 2400 lumens ( Cine4Home on the other site ). Seems like some QC issues with the very first units. Hopefully this gets straightened out as more get manufactured.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on January 26, 2017, 03:40:17 PM
I am very happy I never even considered this projector, as it sound like a real flop from JVC that is not delivering even close to specs. I am very disappointed with this and at the same time I am happy I did not preorder and spent all that cash on a projector performing worse than the 1080p e-shift models (and then I am talking about my own HT)...

A RS620 is most likely being ordered in a couple of weeks... :)

I have an X9500 on order now too :)

Yeah this is kind of alarming regarding the Z1... IF this was actually shooting 3000lm in Rec709 near calibrated I don't think I would take as much issue, but it sounds like my incoming 9500 may be brighter in some circumstances, and have considerably more contrast, definitely giving up some sharpness, but that's a high cost indeed.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 26, 2017, 03:48:05 PM
I have an X9500 on order now too :)

Yeah this is kind of alarming regarding the Z1... IF this was actually shooting 3000lm in Rec709 near calibrated I don't think I would take as much issue, but it sounds like my incoming 9500 may be brighter in some circumstances, and have considerably more contrast, definitely giving up some sharpness, but that's a high cost indeed.

With Cine4Home measuring over 2400 lumens, there has to be something wrong with some of these units. Someone speculated that maybe some of the laser diodes got jarred in shipping. With 8 banks of 6 diodes, that's 300 lumens per bank for 2400 lumens.

I really didn't want to drive to Southern CA to get mine, but I hate the thought of FedEx beating the snot out of it !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Andreas21 on January 26, 2017, 04:24:44 PM
I have an X9500 on order now too :)

Yeah this is kind of alarming regarding the Z1... IF this was actually shooting 3000lm in Rec709 near calibrated I don't think I would take as much issue, but it sounds like my incoming 9500 may be brighter in some circumstances, and have considerably more contrast, definitely giving up some sharpness, but that's a high cost indeed.

I am not giving up the contrast of the RS600/620 for a little sharper image and a lot more $, the RS4500 costs about 35000$ more than the RS620 in Norway... :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 26, 2017, 04:28:37 PM
I am not giving up the contrast of the RS600/620 for a little sharper image and a lot more $, the RS4500 costs about 35000$ more than the RS620 in Norway... :)

It would be ironic if JVC's RS4500's strongest competitor, was their own RS620. But my RS600 has been a stunning projector over the last year, that's for sure.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on January 26, 2017, 04:55:35 PM
It was suspicious when the JVC product page for the RS4500 only mentioned the infinity:1 dynamic contrast ratio...

I'm curious if it is the chips themselves or the fact that they are larger which makes things more difficult to achieve higher ratios.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on January 26, 2017, 05:30:05 PM
I have a second unit that I will be installing at a clients home next week, the placement of this one is just the opposite from my own. Very long throw and a 3.8 meter wide screen, I have to calibrate it on site so I will have some extra readings to compare to my unit.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Highjinx on January 26, 2017, 07:54:43 PM
It was suspicious when the JVC product page for the RS4500 only mentioned the infinity:1 dynamic contrast ratio...

I'm curious if it is the chips themselves or the fact that they are larger which makes things more difficult to achieve higher ratios.

The chips aren't larger, they are a fraction smaller(2K .7", 4K .69") so the pixel size is 4X smaller.

My gut feeling is this is the crux of the problem, the number of liquid crystals are reduced due to the smaller pixel size and the inter crystal light bleed to pixel surface ratio increases, thus reducing On/Off contrast.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 26, 2017, 11:27:31 PM
Based on the screen gain you gave, that is 2,000 lumens at your throw.

Actually, you might be right...

The CA183 seems to be *under* reading at the screen.  Taking the Klein readings off of the screen, and assuming my previous gain calculation of 0.86 is correct, I'm getting ~1900 at the 2.35:1 zoom.  I'm getting 12.9 fL on my screen with laser HIGH, iris 0.

I'll take some more readings today.

Regarding the inifinity:1 contrast - this is nonsense.  There is no fade to black, even with laser dimming on.  Presumably because the overall contrast is low enough that a jump to black would look far too artificial.  The Sony 1000 did a much better job in that regard.

I did a quick lightning LUT calibration yesterday and the results were VERY impressive.  Some of the best results I've seen for Rec709@D65.

Audio/visual lag also seems to be an issue.  I had to max out my lipsync delay on my AV processor to account for the added lag introduced by whatever the projector is doing internally.  I'll measure this delay today using my Syncheck to ensure that I can compensate for it.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on January 27, 2017, 01:16:10 AM
Quote
Audio/visual lag also seems to be an issue.  I had to max out my lipsync delay on my AV processor to account for the added lag introduced by whatever the projector is doing internally.  I'll measure this delay today using my Syncheck to ensure that I can compensate for it.

Did you turn on any of the motion enhancers? this introduce indeed some delay. I turned them all off and have no problems with lip sync;
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 27, 2017, 01:29:12 AM
All motion enhancement is off, as far as I can tell.  I'm going to test low latency mode shortly.  As all the video processing is done inside the Lumagen Pro, I may be able to get away with using that mode without impacting video quality.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 27, 2017, 05:17:56 AM
The chips aren't larger, they are a fraction smaller(2K .7", 4K .69") so the pixel size is 4X smaller.

My gut feeling is this is the crux of the problem, the number of liquid crystals are reduced due to the smaller pixel size and the inter crystal light bleed to pixel surface ratio increases, thus reducing On/Off contrast.
THIS is precisely the root cause of the issue in our opinions as well :) And I had a chat a while back with Alan Gouger and (if he doesn't my saying so) this is his opinion too... So NAIL... HEAD... HIT ;)

IMO in hindsight JVC should have simply made the panel 4 times the size whilst retaining the same pixels size, or even better made the panel 5 times the size with 20% larger pixels size for even better raw contrast performance as compared with the HD panels... Hopefully JVC or at the very least another manufacturer will realize this and do precisely this :) .

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 27, 2017, 05:31:13 AM
Actually, you might be right...

The CA183 seems to be *under* reading at the screen.  Taking the Klein readings off of the screen, and assuming my previous gain calculation of 0.86 is correct, I'm getting ~1900 at the 2.35:1 zoom.  I'm getting 12.9 fL on my screen with laser HIGH, iris 0.

I'll take some more readings today.

Regarding the inifinity:1 contrast - this is nonsense.  There is no fade to black, even with laser dimming on.  Presumably because the overall contrast is low enough that a jump to black would look far too artificial.  The Sony 1000 did a much better job in that regard.

I did a quick lightning LUT calibration yesterday and the results were VERY impressive.  Some of the best results I've seen for Rec709@D65.

Audio/visual lag also seems to be an issue.  I had to max out my lipsync delay on my AV processor to account for the added lag introduced by whatever the projector is doing internally.  I'll measure this delay today using my Syncheck to ensure that I can compensate for it.

Yes, this was discussed earlier, when Kris posted about it. My thoughts that I gave on it are what you are thinking, it would not be a smooth transition out of black. It would be jarring, like the LS10500. I also suspect that in the first version, JVC started out, turning the light source off and had full fade to black and after seeing what it did, adjusted the dimming. That is why I assume have infinity listed as the spec. As for why it has not been changed, I do not know. Maybe they are waiting to see what they can do firmware wise?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 27, 2017, 06:19:40 AM
Talking of firmware, I'm on 1.04

In 20 years of owning a projector I've never updated the firmware... could this be the first?  Seems to be as simple as plugging in a USB stick and going into the 'update firmware' option?

Anybody got RS232 working?  I'm trying to use standard JVC codes, but with no success...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 27, 2017, 07:40:08 AM
THIS is precisely the root cause of the issue in our opinions as well :) And I had a chat a while back with Alan Gouger and (if he doesn't my saying so) this is his opinion too... So NAIL... HEAD... HIT ;)

IMO in hindsight JVC should have simply made the panel 4 times the size whilst retaining the same pixels size, or even better made the panel 5 times the size with 20% larger pixels size for even better raw contrast performance as compared with the HD panels... Hopefully JVC or at the very least another manufacturer will realize this and do precisely this :) .

Sometimes reading things on the internet makes it hard to decipher when someone is joking or not. I assume you aren't serious about making the panels that much larger, are you? A 5 times larger panel would mean each DiLA chip was almost 3.5" in size. The exit element of the lens is only a little larger than this. Do you know how big the optics would need to be for 3.5" DiLA panels?  (http://i.imgur.com/TmTwwpy.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/TmTwwpy.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/TmTwwpy.gif)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 27, 2017, 10:00:54 AM
I concur with Arrow's observations.  This projector CAN put out a huge amount of noise if room temperature goes up.  I've had to reactivate my cooling feed and ensure the room is up to temperature before running the projector to avoid the aircon dumping super heated air into the room and upsetting it.  Once the film is running it tends to get lost in the background until the soundtracks goes quiet.

Light output is poor - I measure ~1600 lumens @D65 from a 26' throw with iris wide open.

BUT, it's also the best image I've seen so far in my room,
and the constant brightness light source means no dimming, like bulbs, so I'll probably be keeping it.  Need more viewing.

That says a lot right there ! Considering your last projector was what - a VW1000 ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 27, 2017, 10:03:34 AM
Talking of firmware, I'm on 1.04

In 20 years of owning a projector I've never updated the firmware... could this be the first?  Seems to be as simple as plugging in a USB stick and going into the 'update firmware' option?

Anybody got RS232 working?  I'm trying to use standard JVC codes, but with no success...

I'm guessing that yes, you will be wanting to update the firmware. Maybe more than once. The good news is that JVC has made it easier than ever to do !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on January 27, 2017, 10:16:11 AM
From what i read here it seems everybody is running 1080P Blu ray on this projector, as it seems its not capable of delivering any usefull lightoutput while maintaining a decent black level for UHD mastered content.. Or am i missing something.?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 27, 2017, 10:28:55 AM
From what i read here it seems everybody is running 1080P Blu ray on this projector, as it seems its not capable of delivering any usefull lightoutput while maintaining a decent black level for UHD mastered content.. Or am i missing something.?

I think Kris Deering has watched 4K UHD on the one he has. It hasn't been out long enough yet to get much feedback - what you read in this thread is pretty much it so far.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 27, 2017, 11:00:16 AM
Yes, this was discussed earlier, when Kris posted about it. My thoughts that I gave on it are what you are thinking, it would not be a smooth transition out of black. It would be jarring, like the LS10500. I also suspect that in the first version, JVC started out, turning the light source off and had full fade to black and after seeing what it did, adjusted the dimming. That is why I assume have infinity listed as the spec. As for why it has not been changed, I do not know. Maybe they are waiting to see what they can do firmware wise?
Therefore, it DOES NOT have infinity : 1 native contrast Mike, so JVC should not state that it does in the published technical specs...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 27, 2017, 11:04:30 AM
That says a lot right there ! Considering your last projector was what - a VW1000 ?

Not quite sure what that is supposed to mean...?  I've been through many projectors in my room...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 27, 2017, 11:06:40 AM
From what i read here it seems everybody is running 1080P Blu ray on this projector, as it seems its not capable of delivering any usefull lightoutput while maintaining a decent black level for UHD mastered content.. Or am i missing something.?

I've viewed 4K/SDR and it looks absolutely stunning.   Not enough light on my screen for HDR, or even 2020.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Highjinx on January 27, 2017, 11:16:20 AM
THIS is precisely the root cause of the issue in our opinions as well :) And I had a chat a while back with Alan Gouger and (if he doesn't my saying so) this is his opinion too... So NAIL... HEAD... HIT ;)

IMO in hindsight JVC should have simply made the panel 4 times the size whilst retaining the same pixels size, or even better made the panel 5 times the size with 20% larger pixels size for even better raw contrast performance as compared with the HD panels... Hopefully JVC or at the very least another manufacturer will realize this and do precisely this :) .

Sometimes reading things on the internet makes it hard to decipher when someone is joking or not. I assume you aren't serious about making the panels that much larger, are you? A 5 times larger panel would mean each DiLA chip was almost 3.5" in size. The exit element of the lens is only a little larger than this. Do you know how big the optics would need to be for 3.5" DiLA panels?  (http://i.imgur.com/TmTwwpy.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/TmTwwpy.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/TmTwwpy.gif)

There must be an optimal target ratio the need to adhere to, but these wafers are quite expensive around $1200-$1500 processed for a 200mm wafer (costs could be less now)

JVC no doubt settled for the most cost effective size, but post development realized the massive drop in their cherished spec - native contrast.

Time for a rethink of light engine design>

Phosphor tipped 3mm dia Laser diode>30 approx .5mm optical fibre optical cables attached to each phosphor laser diode>solid state light gates to each optical cable with a polarizer stage>output(direct or via optical cable)to chip.

Individual laser diodes can be modulated as well as each optical fibre path.

Assuming 12 laser diodes per primary color, this will give 360+ zones of dimming. HT projector HDR Nirvana.

This will give the more expensive models with more laser diodes more modulatable zones. Win/win.

 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 27, 2017, 11:20:32 AM
Sometimes reading things on the internet makes it hard to decipher when someone is joking or not. I assume you aren't serious about making the panels that much larger, are you? A 5 times larger panel would mean each DiLA chip was almost 3.5" in size. The exit element of the lens is only a little larger than this. Do you know how big the optics would need to be for 3.5" DiLA panels?  (http://i.imgur.com/TmTwwpy.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/TmTwwpy.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/TmTwwpy.gif)
I think you need to change the batteries in your calculator Dylan ;)

And YES I am absolutely one hundred percent serious about making the panels that much larger :)

Here's the figures:

DIAGONAL    0.69 INCHES
WIDTH    0.60 INCHES
HEIGHT    0.34 INCHES
AREA            0.20 SQUARE INCHES
      
AREA x 4    0.81   SQUARE INCHES
LENGTH    1.20   INCHES
WIDTH    0.68   INCHES
DIAGONAL 1.38    INCHES
      
AREA x 5   1.02   SQUARE INCHES
LENGTH   1.34   INCHES
WIDTH   0.76   INCHES
DIAGONAL   1.54   INCHES

So, we are in fact talking about 1.38" / 1.54" DiLA panels, not 3.5" ;)

You're welcome :).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on January 27, 2017, 11:20:58 AM
I've viewed 4K/SDR and it looks absolutely stunning.   Not enough light on my screen for HDR, or even 2020.

I done some testing myself running UHD SDR from the UB900, and playing with the HDR to SDR converter and personally i found that around 60fl was needet to give UHD SDR some kind of extra to offer over normal HD.. So i always wonder how people get away with UHD SDR with 15-25fl  Do you have some external processor, or a feature in the projector that further compresses the highlights without clipping white to alow the average image to look punchy and maintain low level information.?  If im not much mistaken HD is mastered to around 100nit/ 30fl wich in most cases is a hard target to reach for most projectors.. But i do agree that there is extra information and dynamic on UHD that pops on a capable display, even on a 1080P REC 709 display if it will just output enough light to hit a gamma curve out of black, and maintain a black black level, that makes the SMPTE 2084 mastered movie presentation look somehow like they were intendet.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 27, 2017, 11:26:35 AM
What display are you using...?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 27, 2017, 11:27:31 AM
Not quite sure what that is supposed to mean...?  I've been through many projectors in my room...

When you said it was the best image you've had in your theater, I was just wondering what the other projectors you had owned in the past - that's all.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 27, 2017, 11:43:35 AM
When you said it was the best image you've had in your theater, I was just wondering what the other projectors you had owned in the past - that's all.

Well, I suppose it's enough to know that the Sony 1000 was the best I'd seen previously, and the Z1 is very likely to replace it.  I'll keep the Z1 for a year or two until either a) Sony prove their SXRD no longer degrade and replace the 5000, or JVC come out with a Z2 that delivers what we all wanted from the Z1!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on January 27, 2017, 11:45:23 AM
What display are you using...?

Mostly tested it on a Pioner plasma, that maxed out at 60fl calibrated without compromising the black level. I have a CRT projector that is normaly shooting 14fl, and can do 20fl with scope movies.. And dont get much pleasure from the UHD SDR, as ill need to set the HDR converter to clip white to get a decent average light output, so im curious how you get around the limited light output and make UHD SDR better than HD.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 27, 2017, 12:42:56 PM
Mostly tested it on a Pioner plasma, that maxed out at 60fl calibrated without compromising the black level. I have a CRT projector that is normaly shooting 14fl, and can do 20fl with scope movies.. And dont get much pleasure from the UHD SDR, as ill need to set the HDR converter to clip white to get a decent average light output, so im curious how you get around the limited light output and make UHD SDR better than HD.

With neither of those displays being 4K ( correct me if I'm wrong ), I'm not sure why you would even bother trying to view 4K source material on them. I can easily see a picture improvement on my JVC RS600 ( which while not native 4K, can display 4K ) over standard Blu Ray, and I'm expecting the RS4500 / Z1 to be even better. Mostly with 4K SDR BT.2020, but I might change that with the RS4500.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 27, 2017, 01:10:50 PM
Therefore, it DOES NOT have infinity : 1 native contrast Mike, so JVC should not state that it does in the published technical specs...

I agree. That is why I said, I don't know why it has not been changed in the spec.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on January 27, 2017, 01:25:01 PM
With neither of those displays being 4K ( correct me if I'm wrong ), I'm not sure why you would even bother trying to view 4K source material on them. I can easily see a picture improvement on my JVC RS600 ( which while not native 4K, can display 4K ) over standard Blu Ray, and I'm expecting the RS4500 / Z1 to be even better. Mostly with 4K SDR BT.2020, but I might change that with the RS4500.

Oposit most people today i dont realy care about the pixel count, im into image quality, not pixels.. So it there is a advantage in a format i dont mind using it.. No matter if its a HD or UHD display everything other than the pixel count apply the same, that beeing the SMPTE 2084, and whatever color gammut used.. So testing on a 1080P display outputting 1080P SDR REC 709 is no different than a 2160P SDR rec 709 in regard to gamma and colors..

UHD is still 4:2:0 wich when downscaled to 1080P should be possible to get a perfect non upsampled 4:4:4 croma, and my main issue with HD is not the resolution, but the compression who needs croma upsampling.. UHD have more low level information mastered into the movies, but you need the right ramp out of black to take advantage of it. If you come out of black to flat it dont work.. so therefore you need to somewhat follow the SMPTE 2084 gamma out of black, and compress the highlights.. But a UHD movie displayed on a HD calibrated display looks terrible dim and flat, and they are 2 different ways of mastering, so im curious how you guys get around the low light output, and maintain the SMPTE 2084 gamma curve and average light output, as i would like to try that myself, so when people tell that UHD SDR looks great, or better than HD ill expect they did some work to get there, and can explain what.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on January 27, 2017, 04:14:17 PM
I think you need to change the batteries in your calculator Dylan ;)

And YES I am absolutely one hundred percent serious about making the panels that much larger :)

Here's the figures:

DIAGONAL    0.69 INCHES
WIDTH    0.60 INCHES
HEIGHT    0.34 INCHES
AREA            0.20 SQUARE INCHES
      
AREA x 4    0.81   SQUARE INCHES
LENGTH    1.20   INCHES
WIDTH    0.68   INCHES
DIAGONAL 1.38    INCHES
      
AREA x 5   1.02   SQUARE INCHES
LENGTH   1.34   INCHES
WIDTH   0.76   INCHES
DIAGONAL   1.54   INCHES

So, we are in fact talking about 1.38" / 1.54" DiLA panels, not 3.5" ;)

You're welcome :).

I really wasn't thinking that one through. I just multiplied the diagonal length times 4 and 5. Figuring out the surface area didn't even occur to me. DOH! :)

With that said, the argument is still essentially the same. Getting the display area that large brings you into the commercial projector realm and as such necessitates much larger light engine optics and prime lenses. I don't think it's feasible for the consumer market. JVC will have to figure something else out especially when most are buying projectors in the under $5000 market. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 28, 2017, 05:20:22 AM
I really wasn't thinking that one through. I just multiplied the diagonal length times 4 and 5. Figuring out the surface area didn't even occur to me. DOH! :)
No worries Dylan, I am by no means perfect and suffer the occasional brain-fart. It's to be expected when we get to our age! ;) So you are forgiven already :D

With that said, the argument is still essentially the same. Getting the display area that large brings you into the commercial projector realm and as such necessitates much larger light engine optics and prime lenses. I don't think it's feasible for the consumer market...
Not quite... Your argument is that it will not be even close to economically viable to do as I have suggested... But this is not factually correct.

When you take in consideration what will be the actual correct size of the larger panels, the manufacturing cost implication, the target demographic, and the considerable selling price headroom that exists between the JVC RS4500/Z1 and the SONY VPL VW5000ES, and do the maths (as I have done so) it would in fact be possible for JVC to release a projector such as the Z1 but with the x4/x5 panel sizes for a selling price the same as the SONY 5000ES ;)

It strikes me that the RS4500/Z1 would appear to fall between two chairs, as more than one person has observed, in other words who is its target demographic exactly? It's certainly not going to be a product that can directly compete with the SONY 5000, which is what we were informed by JVC was a primary objective when it was announced.

And whilst it's clear that you can obtain a nice looking image, this is not without being agreeable to compromise in more ways than one, either by limiting the screen size, or accepting less than THX recommended guidelines with respect to video performance.

So, aside from being a bit of a misfire performance-wise it would appear to be a bit of a marketing misfire too, because in order to properly compete with the SONY 5000, which was/is the intention here, we are of the view that JVC should have opted for producing the best product for the same price as the SONY 5000, instead of trying to significantly undercut it on price and outperform it at the same time... But where the poor contrast and brightness performance of the 0.69" native 4K chip/panel has kiboshed the whole product unfortunately.

And I am sure I am not the only person of the opinion that the fundamental mistake here was/is reducing the contrast performance at the component level, especially taking into consideration:
(1) Superior black levels and contrast is JVC's primary USP with its consumer HT projectors; and
(2) Being a new premium flagship product costing $35,000 customers are not going to be happy about having significantly worse black levels and constrast as compared with their existing HT projectors.

Therefore, I come back to the fact that for this product to meet its intended marketing plan including target demographic, reducing the size of the display panels by a factor of 4 and thereby the size of the pixels and thereby the contrast/pixel performance was/is the root cause of the problem here and as such a fundamental mistake by JVC.

Wherein, all that needs to be done to address and fix the problem is to change these awful 0.69" 4K DiLA panels/chips with the 1.38" / 1.54" size 4K DiLA panels that I have mentioned. And where the good news is that it is both practically and theoretically potentially economically viable to do so, given the headroom available allows the selling price to be increased by up to x1.714

Can anyone point me in the direction of JVC's suggestions box? ;) :)
 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ARROW-AV on January 28, 2017, 05:36:47 AM
Well, I suppose it's enough to know that the Sony 1000 was the best I'd seen previously, and the Z1 is very likely to replace it.  I'll keep the Z1 for a year or two until either a) Sony prove their SXRD no longer degrade and replace the 5000, or JVC come out with a Z2 that delivers what we all wanted from the Z1!
Thanks for all your brilliant feedback Mark! :)

I have been most interested reading all your posts on both here and the 'other' forum... But in particular because your fabulous home cinema/theater that you have there most closely mirrors my own, that I have as my own point of reference, where in addition to being a blacked out room like yours, both the screen size and gain are almost identical as yours, and the projector is also identical (Sony 1000), and you've even got what is essentially identical calibration kit as me too!

So it's interesting to see that your measurements are essentially the same as mine, and whilst it's disappointing that the contrast and brightness performance measurements in particular are a bit disappointing and do not meet expectations, overall you can achieve a very nice looking image and if one does not get hung up on the particular figures overall image-wise it could be considered a pretty decent upgrade from what you have experienced with the Sony 1000 on that screen size in your environment. My point being it can be easy to focus solely on fact and figures but it's not all doom and gloom in that the image produced by this projector when set up properly and in the right environment is not only comparatively quite lovely but also impressive, and from the sounds of it a step up from what you had previously which is certainly a good thing! :)

And I should add that I know you are (understandably) not a fan of lamp-based projectors and so in this respect alone the RS4500/Z1 is a significant upgrade! :)

That said, like you I am looking forward to the next projectors down the line which offer yet even better performance ;)

Enjoy! :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Andreas21 on January 28, 2017, 06:06:44 AM
Oposit most people today i dont realy care about the pixel count, im into image quality, not pixels.. So it there is a advantage in a format i dont mind using it.. No matter if its a HD or UHD display everything other than the pixel count apply the same, that beeing the SMPTE 2084, and whatever color gammut used.. So testing on a 1080P display outputting 1080P SDR REC 709 is no different than a 2160P SDR rec 709 in regard to gamma and colors..

UHD is still 4:2:0 wich when downscaled to 1080P should be possible to get a perfect non upsampled 4:4:4 croma, and my main issue with HD is not the resolution, but the compression who needs croma upsampling.. UHD have more low level information mastered into the movies, but you need the right ramp out of black to take advantage of it. If you come out of black to flat it dont work.. so therefore you need to somewhat follow the SMPTE 2084 gamma out of black, and compress the highlights.. But a UHD movie displayed on a HD calibrated display looks terrible dim and flat, and they are 2 different ways of mastering, so im curious how you guys get around the low light output, and maintain the SMPTE 2084 gamma curve and average light output, as i would like to try that myself, so when people tell that UHD SDR looks great, or better than HD ill expect they did some work to get there, and can explain what.

When watching UHD with SDR you no longer have to think about st2084 as with SDR you use the normal SDR gamma you prefer. And the best way to watch UHD movies (this is my personal opinion) on a projector so far is to use rec709 and SDR as this will give you the most accurate picture. When using rec2020 and SDR  it messes up the gamma in some ways, and also the colors are affected. So I watch UHD movies in rec709 and SDR and get 4K resolution and 10bit and to me this looks a little better than normal BD, but not much. I watch 99% BD on my MadVR High End PC with a watercooled Titan X Pascal GPU. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on January 28, 2017, 06:43:18 AM
When watching UHD with SDR you no longer have to think about st2084 as with SDR you use the normal SDR gamma you prefer. And the best way to watch UHD movies (this is my personal opinion) on a projector so far is to use rec709 and SDR as this will give you the most accurate picture. When using rec2020 and SDR  it messes up the gamma in some ways, and also the colors are affected. So I watch UHD movies in rec709 and SDR and get 4K resolution and 10bit and to me this looks a little better than normal BD, but not much. I watch 99% BD on my MadVR High End PC with a watercooled Titan X Pascal GPU. :)

And for that to happen ill expect you need a significantly higher light output than 14 or 20fl on your screen.. If you pop in the same movie in a UHD player, the UHD and HD, set it all to output REC 709 SDR, the UHD vertion will be very much dimmer, wich the only way to compensate fore is to manipulate the gamma with a external processor, or adjust the HDR converter wich adds white clipping, or push even more light out of your display/ projector.. So what i find important.. How much light is on the screen, and black level.. As thats 2 very important parameters to get a good UHD SDR image.. I cant say if the advantage shifts to UHD at 40fl, or 50, i just know that 60fl is pretty interesting on a display that can hold a black black, with the HDR converter set to 0 on the UB900 player, and that show the gamma curve follow the SMPTE 2084 out of black.. How is this working on the new JVC.? Anyone measured it.?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 28, 2017, 09:21:58 AM
... if one does not get hung up on the particular figures overall image-wise it could be considered a pretty decent upgrade from what you have experienced with the Sony 1000 on that screen size in your environment...

Well, that's exactly it.  This thing calibrates very well indeed and I can better my existing projector in most important ways, giving myself a very nice stepping stone to the next generation.  Spent the afternoon programming the automation and dipping in and out of test chapters and found myself constantly smiling at the image.

Fortunately, I went off using the DI on the Sony, so was always running around 12K:1 contrast, so the Z1 is ballpark in that respect.  OK, so no HDR for me this time around, but it's a mess on projectors anyway.

And finally, no more bulbs!

Quote
That said, like you I am looking forward to the next projectors down the line which offer yet even better performance ;)

Yes, indeed.  Bring on the Z2!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Andreas21 on January 28, 2017, 02:44:58 PM
And for that to happen ill expect you need a significantly higher light output than 14 or 20fl on your screen.. If you pop in the same movie in a UHD player, the UHD and HD, set it all to output REC 709 SDR, the UHD vertion will be very much dimmer, wich the only way to compensate fore is to manipulate the gamma with a external processor, or adjust the HDR converter wich adds white clipping, or push even more light out of your display/ projector.. So what i find important.. How much light is on the screen, and black level.. As thats 2 very important parameters to get a good UHD SDR image.. I cant say if the advantage shifts to UHD at 40fl, or 50, i just know that 60fl is pretty interesting on a display that can hold a black black, with the HDR converter set to 0 on the UB900 player, and that show the gamma curve follow the SMPTE 2084 out of black.. How is this working on the new JVC.? Anyone measured it.?



With correct conversion from bt2020 to rec709 and from st2084 to a power function gamma the lightoutput should be the same.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on January 28, 2017, 03:06:51 PM
With correct conversion from bt2020 to rec709 and from st2084 to a power function gamma the lightoutput should be the same.

Have you ever experienced that, and if so what equipment/ converter.?

What your saying is that you can shoot 2 screenshots 1 of UHD and 1 of HD a average frame will look the same if converted right.?

I only tested the converter in the Panasonic UB900,  ill like to know what to buy to make it work right, and display a UHD SDR on a normal HD calibrated display, and it will be both objective and subjectively better. Is it something unike to these new JVC projectors.?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on January 30, 2017, 01:00:40 AM
Have you ever experienced that, and if so what equipment/ converter.?

What your saying is that you can shoot 2 screenshots 1 of UHD and 1 of HD a average frame will look the same if converted right.?

I only tested the converter in the Panasonic UB900,  ill like to know what to buy to make it work right, and display a UHD SDR on a normal HD calibrated display, and it will be both objective and subjectively better. Is it something unike to these new JVC projectors.?

This discussion is really OT for this thread, but Lumagen are working on a mapping algorithm that will take in HDR metadata and map it into your SDR 3D LUT (stored on the Lumagen).  This, if it works, should accurately translate HDR into whatever your projector is capable of.  The key thing being that below 100 nits, both SDR and HDR hold the majority of the image, with HDR being 10/12bit instead of 8 bit.  Above 100 nits, it's HDR all the way.  So the Lumagen algorithm will allow you to display the main HDR image in an SDR cube while then rolling/clipping away all the stuff you cannot display.  The result is a 10/12bit SDR image.  It could well be the killer HDR converter...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on January 30, 2017, 02:33:02 AM
This discussion is really OT for this thread, but Lumagen are working on a mapping algorithm that will take in HDR metadata and map it into your SDR 3D LUT (stored on the Lumagen).  This, if it works, should accurately translate HDR into whatever your projector is capable of.  The key thing being that below 100 nits, both SDR and HDR hold the majority of the image, with HDR being 10/12bit instead of 8 bit.  Above 100 nits, it's HDR all the way.  So the Lumagen algorithm will allow you to display the main HDR image in an SDR cube while then rolling/clipping away all the stuff you cannot display.  The result is a 10/12bit SDR image.  It could well be the killer HDR converter...

Some say that UHD works well on these JVC projectors, and as lumagen dont have that option out yet, ill expect you guys to reach the conclution of UHD SDR to be better to be made by what you have in hand.. Im just curious if i need to buy the JVC projector or a specifik player to give UHD SDR the overtake with low light output, and ask if anyone of you guys measured the gamma performance on your JVC Z1 feeding it a UHD WCG HDR signal and converted it.. I expect that most of you have the equipment and know how to measures, so there is some objective usefull data in the hole UHD SDR debate.. I have not seen other than subjective opinions in every thread the subject is touched, and im truly curious what it takes at this very moment to get a UHD SDR image on a low contrast low light display, that gives UHD the edge over HD.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Andreas21 on January 30, 2017, 08:01:25 AM
Have you ever experienced that, and if so what equipment/ converter.?

What your saying is that you can shoot 2 screenshots 1 of UHD and 1 of HD a average frame will look the same if converted right.?

I only tested the converter in the Panasonic UB900,  ill like to know what to buy to make it work right, and display a UHD SDR on a normal HD calibrated display, and it will be both objective and subjectively better. Is it something unike to these new JVC projectors.?

I use the Panasonic also and I have experienced this with only a couple of UHD movies. The problem here is the UHD movies not the conversion (as the Panasonic does this "perfect") and there are so many bad UHD movies. UHD BD is a BETA product and we are all BETA testers. This makes me almost drop UHD for now and only focus on normal BD as buying UHD movies is a gamble.

And you as a CRT user can just forget about HDR as it will never suit your preferred projector, and this actually goes with all projectors at the moment.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 30, 2017, 02:47:36 PM
My RS4500 is on its way to me ( at least a large credit card charge indicates it will be soon ) !  :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on January 31, 2017, 08:17:05 AM
Side-by-side comparing the Z1 / 4500 to the RS600 I have made some interesting discoveries, both projectors in gamma 2.4, iris open and high lamp mode, iris on at the RS600 and at mode 1 on the Z1 - on a 14 ft screen;

1. Brightness is - as expected - significantly higher on the Z1, on a 14 ft screen it generates a far more pleasant result in such regards than the RS600.

2. Black level actually almost identical when compared side-by-side, difference is that Z1 uses laser to modulate the light output / black level and as such the bright objects are also much dimmer than on the RS600. Still, as the eye is less sensitive to light output in dark frames, this might work quite fine for the Z1 and as such, the laser dimming might actually help out quite a lot on obtaining a very resonable black level and at the same time be able to produce significantly more light than the RS600.

3. No streaking on the Z1, very visible on the RS600 on typical white text on black background...

I will try to take some pics!

All-in-all I am starting to actually quite like the Z1 even though the issue of DCI P3 not working out on a large screen such as mine was kind of a disappointment... Still, the fact that the Z1 is actually able to quite effeciently produce both bright AND dynamic images kind of makes up for this weakness to some extent. HDR is a nogo for projectors anyhow in my opinion, I would never give away most of the available brightness for some peaks here and there and as far as I am concerned, in such case I would need 5-10x the light available from the Z1 - perhaps even more if P3 is to be activated too - by other words a utopian scenario except for perhaps with the VW5000.

Naturally one would want it all at 35k, but I really feel JVC has made out quite a nice platform with their Z1. Z2 will certainly be better; the P3 filter, for example, will hopefully be far more effecient (currently a 40% drop...!), but hey - life´s short, there will ALWAYS be improvements around the corner! If you do have 35k to "spare", the Z1 is just about the only projector available that can produce bright AND high contrasted 4K native images if you rule out the Sony VW5000.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on January 31, 2017, 08:26:25 AM
Some questions came up regarding what was shown at CEDIA vs what is shipping. We all knew the projector shown at CEDIA was not a production model. We also know that the projector was not using the dynamic dimming system. From questions asked at CEDIA, we also know the projector was not showing HDR content. I know all of this, because I asked at the show. Now for some additional info. The projector did not have a working CMS, which has been fairly common for early production models. Some have questioned the brightness of the projector at the show, vs the production model. Since the CMS was not working JVC had to turn down the gains a bunch leaving them with about 1,600 lumens. Also the 4K content that was shown was Rec709, but a really good source, so no compression. Keep in mind the screen was 16' x 9' using ST130 in a black pit of a room.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 31, 2017, 08:33:52 AM
Side-by-side comparing the Z1 / 4500 to the RS600 I have made some interesting discoveries, both projectors in gamma 2.4, iris open and high lamp mode, iris on at the RS600 and at mode 1 on the Z1 - on a 14 ft screen;

1. Brightness is - as expected - significantly higher on the Z1, on a 14 ft screen it generates a far more pleasant result in such regards than the RS600.

2. Black level actually almost identical when compared side-by-side, difference is that Z1 uses laser to modulate the light output / black level and as such the bright objects are also much dimmer than on the RS600. Still, as the eye is less sensitive to light output in dark frames, this might work quite fine for the Z1 and as such, the laser dimming might actually help out quite a lot on obtaining a very resonable black level and at the same time be able to produce significantly more light than the RS600.

3. No streaking on the Z1, very visible on the RS600 on typical white text on black background...

I will try to take some pics!

All-in-all I am starting to actually quite like the Z1 even though the issue of DCI P3 not working out on a large screen such as mine was kind of a disappointment... Still, the fact that the Z1 is actually able to quite effeciently produce both bright AND dynamic images kind of makes up for this weakness to some extent. HDR is a nogo for projectors anyhow in my opinion, I would never give away most of the available brightness for some peaks here and there and as far as I am concerned, in such case I would need 5-10x the light available from the Z1 - perhaps even more if P3 is to be activated too - by other words a utopian scenario except for perhaps with the VW5000.

Naturally one would want it all at 35k, but I really feel JVC has made out quite a nice platform with their Z1. Z2 will certainly be better; the P3 filter, for example, will hopefully be far more effecient (currently a 40% drop...!), but hey - life´s short, there will ALWAYS be improvements around the corner! If you do have 35k to "spare", the Z1 is just about the only projector available that can produce bright AND high contrasted 4K native images if you rule out the Sony VW5000.

Good info - can't wait for mine. Have you tried the HDR color profile yet with 4K Blu Rays? Honestly, I didn't much care for what HDR did to the picture with my RS600, and wound up using the SDR BR.2020 conversion with a Integral. But as Kris has pointed out, nice as that has looked on my projector, it isn't really correct anyway. So I'm curious to try the pre-set for HDR on the RS4500. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on January 31, 2017, 09:03:38 AM
Side-by-side comparing the Z1 / 4500 to the RS600 I have made some interesting discoveries, both projectors in gamma 2.4, iris open and high lamp mode, iris on at the RS600 and at mode 1 on the Z1 - on a 14 ft screen;

What screen material are you using?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on January 31, 2017, 09:05:00 AM
Any comments on motion handling?

Has anybody hooked a computer up to theirs?  Would love to see a picture of white text on a black background.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on January 31, 2017, 09:42:52 AM
What screen material are you using?

ScreenAcoustics (DreamScreen) UltraWeave V6 AT @ gain of about 0.8 (benchmarked towards Studiotek 100 @ D65)... :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on January 31, 2017, 09:51:36 AM
ScreenAcoustics (DreamScreen) UltraWeave V6 AT @ gain of about 0.8 (benchmarked towards Studiotek 100 @ D65)... :)

Those are the two materials I am considering.  If an RS600 can light that up this is good news for those of us without $35K currently available for a projector :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on January 31, 2017, 10:01:13 AM
Any comments on motion handling?

Has anybody hooked a computer up to theirs?  Would love to see a picture of white text on a black background.

I read Ekki stated motion handling was not as good on the Z1 as the RS600 so I have tried looking for it... I guess you´d need moving test patterns to make out any shortcomings, as it seems to handle motion quite well on movies. I am not a FI fan anyhow, and as such the 24fps stuttering is probably making it hard to evaluate the motion quality, but I have to say this does really not seem as much of a practical shortcoming as far as I am concerned at least.....
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on January 31, 2017, 10:34:22 AM
I read Ekki stated motion handling was not as good on the Z1 as the RS600 so I have tried looking for it... I guess you´d need moving test patterns to make out any shortcomings, as it seems to handle motion quite well on movies. I am not a FI fan anyhow, and as such the 24fps stuttering is probably making it hard to evaluate the motion quality, but I have to say this does really not seem as much of a practical shortcoming as far as I am concerned at least.....

I don't watch too many test patterns. I don't mind CMD on low, so I will check this as soon as mine arrives.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 01, 2017, 07:59:09 AM
I read Ekki stated motion handling was not as good on the Z1 as the RS600 so I have tried looking for it... I guess you´d need moving test patterns to make out any shortcomings, as it seems to handle motion quite well on movies. I am not a FI fan anyhow, and as such the 24fps stuttering is probably making it hard to evaluate the motion quality, but I have to say this does really not seem as much of a practical shortcoming as far as I am concerned at least.....

Any more thoughts or observations? I'd like to be able to make my own observations, but I don't even have tracking yet on my projector. So I'm living vicariously through you ! Maybe I'll watch The Wave on my RS4500 and see how it compares to watching it on my RS600.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 01, 2017, 09:32:07 AM
My RS4500 should arrive tomorrow or Friday from what I've been told - just in time for a rainy weekend install !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on February 01, 2017, 11:19:50 AM
Any more thoughts or observations? I'd like to be able to make my own observations, but I don't even have tracking yet on my projector. So I'm living vicariously through you ! Maybe I'll watch The Wave on my RS4500 and see how it compares to watching it on my RS600.

Today I´ve been cutting V6 samples like crazy, heading to ISE this weekend and unfortunately very little time for further Z1 reviewing... Still, I can´t help paying it some quick visits, and today the last Transformers movie was playing - still in "RS600 vs Z1 / RS4500"-mode. This movie is typically oversaturated and grained, and I really see how the added light output from the RS4500 makes for a very nice added punch compared to the RS600. Colors are very nicely saturated, and grain is more visible on the RS4500 - which is what they´re supposed to be on this particular movie. I´d say the Z1 is fully capable of lighting the 14 ft screen, and while the RS600 actually also does an OK job in such regards, when you´ve seen the light - so to speak - you wouldn´t want to go back. You´re in for a treat!! :):)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 01, 2017, 11:35:39 AM
Today I´ve been cutting V6 samples like crazy, heading to ISE this weekend and unfortunately very little time for further Z1 reviewing... Still, I can´t help paying it some quick visits, and today the last Transformers movie was playing - still in "RS600 vs Z1 / RS4500"-mode. This movie is typically oversaturated and grained, and I really see how the added light output from the RS4500 makes for a very nice added punch compared to the RS600. Colors are very nicely saturated, and grain is more visible on the RS4500 - which is what they´re supposed to be on this particular movie. I´d say the Z1 is fully capable of lighting the 14 ft screen, and while the RS600 actually also does an OK job in such regards, when you´ve seen the light - so to speak - you wouldn´t want to go back. You´re in for a treat!! :):)

Good thing my wife doesn't read here, because while she is gone this weekend, not only am I going to install the RS4500, I think I'll paint a couple of walls with the Roscoe Super Concentrated Velour Black paint that's coming today, and move the seating ever so closer to the screen !  :-X
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 01, 2017, 12:06:31 PM
Good thing my wife doesn't read here, because while she is gone this weekend, not only am I going to install the RS4500, I think I'll paint a couple of walls with the Roscoe Super Concentrated Velour Black paint that's coming today, and move the seating ever so closer to the screen !  :-X

Be sure and rub out the old marks in the carpet, where the seats were sitting. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: TonyD on February 01, 2017, 12:38:46 PM
Expecting delivery tomorrow on my RS4500. Looking forward to it. Will post some impressions.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 01, 2017, 12:51:37 PM
Expecting delivery tomorrow on my RS4500. Looking forward to it. Will post some impressions.

Same here - the freight company called that is delivering it - " a 97 lb. electrical appliance " they called it . Between 2 and 5 pm Pacific !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 01, 2017, 12:53:10 PM
Expecting delivery tomorrow on my RS4500. Looking forward to it. Will post some impressions.

It is like " expecting delivery " of a new baby ( projector baby that is ) !   ::)

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 01, 2017, 01:42:34 PM
Same here - the freight company called that is delivering it - " a 97 lb. electrical appliance " they called it . Between 2 and 5 pm Pacific !

Hope they know it is a 35K electrical appliance and not a small cast iron stove. :)
Like Craig, mine shipped 72 hours ago, but I do not know when it is being delivered yet. Mine has to travel a lot farther than Craig's.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on February 01, 2017, 03:56:58 PM
Good thing my wife doesn't read here, because while she is gone this weekend, not only am I going to install the RS4500, I think I'll paint a couple of walls with the Roscoe Super Concentrated Velour Black paint that's coming today, and move the seating ever so closer to the screen !  :-X

I did my whole room in it - awesome paint and Chad is always very impressed with it when he comes out.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 01, 2017, 04:14:09 PM
I did my whole room in it - awesome paint and Chad is always very impressed with it when he comes out.

What ratio did you mix it at ? 1:1 ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on February 01, 2017, 05:09:38 PM
What ratio did you mix it at ? 1:1 ?

You can mix it 1:1, but I didn't mix it.  It's a tad darker on the wall if you don't, but I only needed about 3.5 gallons for my room.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 01, 2017, 06:12:52 PM
You can mix it 1:1, but I didn't mix it.  It's a tad darker on the wall if you don't, but I only needed about 3.5 gallons for my room.

It's strange that I have read people complaining about how this paint goes on the wall if they didn't thin it a little, so maybe I'll go 1 part paint to .75 parts water and see how that works !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on February 01, 2017, 08:10:48 PM
It's strange that I have read people complaining about how this paint goes on the wall if they didn't thin it a little, so maybe I'll go 1 part paint to .75 parts water and see how that works !

It's a very, very thick paint (reminds me of black tar) and does take more work to put on the wall not mixed, but wasn't a big deal to me.  When I did tests, I found it just a bit darker not mixed with water...in fact, I later went over the mixed water parts with just the paint.  But it's slight.  It does a great job of absorbing light.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 02, 2017, 11:27:36 AM
It's a very, very thick paint (reminds me of black tar) and does take more work to put on the wall not mixed, but wasn't a big deal to me.  When I did tests, I found it just a bit darker not mixed with water...in fact, I later went over the mixed water parts with just the paint.  But it's slight.  It does a great job of absorbing light.

Some folks seemed to thing it looked streaky not thinned. I have to thin it or I'll need to order more !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on February 02, 2017, 01:31:09 PM
Some folks seemed to thing it looked streaky not thinned. I have to thin it or I'll need to order more !

I found the opposite. lol  :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on February 02, 2017, 04:04:01 PM
Just to note, my walls were also white before putting it on - not sure if that factored in on my experience.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 02, 2017, 04:27:56 PM
Just to note, my walls were also white before putting it on - not sure if that factored in on my experience.

Mine are already dark grey !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 02, 2017, 09:35:39 PM
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16406838_10211882062908014_1450860478015039679_n.jpg?oh=29850f213bc5eebbf8634bb4de265df3&oe=5947ED61)

I think I need help carrying this monster !  ???
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 03, 2017, 05:21:11 AM
I would help, but a little too far away. :) I agree on the help. You don't want to throw your back out for a projector, not even an RS4500. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 03, 2017, 07:21:28 AM
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16427226_10211884942179994_741362682303746487_n.jpg?oh=f13d89805d336f6ded3199683fc919ff&oe=59138D83)

I've got help coming this morning ! 2 flights of stairs and into the projector closet.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 03, 2017, 12:10:30 PM
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16426040_10211887145075065_3986904789351375433_n.jpg?oh=2d803903dc8d08b38a70889b63c713d7&oe=5912F2F1)
The RS4500 in it's new home.

(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16387429_10211887145955087_3129917363410186325_n.jpg?oh=205f205c8a81178248eeff6503e6679d&oe=590DE6BD)

(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16388331_10211887146955112_2466397886250864845_n.jpg?oh=93367c55d65a576b426cc6fce44798ef&oe=59106A6D)

It works ! Time to build a new front enclosure.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: TonyD on February 03, 2017, 12:41:16 PM
Awesome Craig. If possible, would you mind sharing the distance between the front and rear feat of the projector? Need to confirm my shelf is long enough to support the length. The same shelf supported the 1100 without issue but RS4500 is a bit longer.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 03, 2017, 12:48:45 PM
Watched a little bit so far, mostly to get the projector lined up on the screen(s), make sure it works, and find my way around the menus ( similar to the RS600, but different ). I haven't even begun to start dialing this projector in. So far I like it.

Lens memory works great - better than the VW600 and the RS600.

Black levels - obviously not as good as the RS600, but as good as the VW600 I had. Detail on really dark scenes is excellent. I can now see where I had black crush / lack of detail on my RS600 ( beginning of the new Star Wars Blu Ray ).
I need to play around with settings.

Dynamic laser dimming - tried Mode 2. Can't see any pumping on my 122" dia. 16:9 Cima Neve screen or the 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST 130 G3 screen so far.

Bright. I just closed the manual iris to -8, but I need to sit down with the light meter and test patterns. High laser looks crazy good - very tempting to use that. I need to get my light meter out. 

About as loud as my old Digital Projection 1080p projector at times. Not a factor for me. 

4K UHD Blu Rays look better than I've seen them, but I only threw in Pacific Rim so far. The picture detail is amazing - I'll be testing more this weekend. And I did use BT.2020. Not too dark on my screen. I'll test the HDR preset on the RS4500 next.
 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 03, 2017, 12:51:02 PM
Awesome Craig. If possible, would you mind sharing the distance between the front and rear feat of the projector? Need to confirm my shelf is long enough to support the length. The same shelf supported the 1100 without issue but RS4500 is a bit longer.

17.3" - it's on page 78 of the owners manual.

http://www33.jvckenwood.com/pdfs/B5A-2008-09.pdf
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 03, 2017, 01:12:50 PM
Nice looking forward to mine. You are going to have a fun weekend. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 03, 2017, 01:16:15 PM
Nice looking forward to mine. You are going to have a fun weekend. :)

But your Monday is looking exciting !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 03, 2017, 01:37:29 PM
But your Monday is looking exciting !

Yeah, I usually don't wish that the weekend would go by quickly, so that I can work on Monday. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 03, 2017, 02:51:24 PM
I'll have more observations, notes and some lumen / foot lambert measurements later this weekend.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on February 03, 2017, 06:51:45 PM
Congrats, Craig.  Looking forward to your further impressions even though this unit is way out of my price league. :)  Did you get Rosco on the walls yet?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 03, 2017, 08:12:33 PM
Congrats, Craig.  Looking forward to your further impressions even though this unit is way out of my price league. :)  Did you get Rosco on the walls yet?

Oh hell no - I'm so preoccupied with the new projector, I haven't gotten that far ! :) Plus, I had to modify my projector closet. Sort of took the wind out of my Rosco sails for right now !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 04, 2017, 01:20:55 AM
Lens memory works great

Last two sessions my focus has been off at the start of a session, and switching between memories does not restore it to where it should be.  Not sure why.  Frustrating to have to refocus each session.  But the repositioning works very well, if really slowly.

Quote
Dynamic laser dimming - tried Mode 2. Can't see any pumping...

You will, but whether it bothers you are not is the important thing.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 04, 2017, 10:19:09 AM
Last two sessions my focus has been off at the start of a session, and switching between memories does not restore it to where it should be.  Not sure why.  Frustrating to have to refocus each session.  But the repositioning works very well, if really slowly.

You will, but whether it bothers you are not is the important thing.

I can see it occasionally, but barely. I watched a bunch of stuff last night. At mid laser, -7 manual iris, I'm getting around 20 foot lamberts on my 16:9 screen! More to follow.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on February 04, 2017, 10:24:38 AM
Last two sessions my focus has been off at the start of a session, and switching between memories does not restore it to where it should be.  Not sure why.  Frustrating to have to refocus each session.  But the repositioning works very well, if really slowly.

You will, but whether it bothers you are not is the important thing.

I have yet to see anything that resembles "pumping". The only artifact I see is with mid to high bright scenes when the laser goes up a bit in brightness. It is a very quick flicker, and usually happens at scene transitions. I still only see this maybe once or twice in a whole movie, hardly intrusive. Never seen any type of artifact with darker sequences in movies.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 04, 2017, 10:42:31 AM
I have yet to see anything that resembles "pumping". The only artifact I see is with mid to high bright scenes when the laser goes up a bit in brightness. It is a very quick flicker, and usually happens at scene transitions. I still only see this maybe once or twice in a whole movie, hardly intrusive. Never seen any type of artifact with darker sequences in movies.

That's a good description - a " quick flicker ".

4K using Rec.709 looks brighter and far more realistic to me. And, now I'm using my Panasonic UB900 to upscale Blu Rays to 4K. i'm thinking that way I can use the same player and the same settings for everything. More to follow.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 04, 2017, 11:09:33 AM
That's a good description - a " quick flicker ".

That's enough to destroy immersion for me.  It's a compromise I'm not willing to make.   The native CR presentation benefits from constant peak highlights too.  I personally prefer that.  The laser dimming does just that - dims everything.  I wasn't aware of such obvious dimming with the mechanical DI on the Sony 1000.  I just don't think the laser dimming works well yet.  Perhaps it can be improved via firmware.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 04, 2017, 11:12:54 AM
4K using Rec.709 looks brighter and far more realistic to me. And, now I'm using my Panasonic UB900 to upscale Blu Rays to 4K. i'm thinking that way I can use the same player and the same settings for everything. More to follow.

All we need now is the Lumagen intensity mapping algorithm which will map the HDR metadata onto our Rec709 cubes and we get the perfect 4K displays.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 04, 2017, 12:35:23 PM
That's enough to destroy immersion for me.  It's a compromise I'm not willing to make.   The native CR presentation benefits from constant peak highlights too.  I personally prefer that.  The laser dimming does just that - dims everything.  I wasn't aware of such obvious dimming with the mechanical DI on the Sony 1000.  I just don't think the laser dimming works well yet.  Perhaps it can be improved via firmware.

I only saw it maybe 2 or 3 times during the entire movie " Oblivion " though. I saw the iris on my VW600 as often, if not more. Once again, I think screen size and manual iris settings affect this.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ozhdht on February 04, 2017, 04:44:47 PM
I spent some time Friday even doing Autocal on my Z1. I ran through all the modes I am currently using with some scope to adjust aperture and CMD on each. I haven't had an opp to sit down and look at the results but am hoping to tonight. I've essentially not done any viewing all week so it will be sort of fresh again, looking forward to it.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 04, 2017, 07:26:48 PM
I am late to the party. Don't get my unit until Monday. I have everything in my room ready, so will not take me too long to get it set up. Will have to wait until my son gets home from school, to help me get it on the mount. :) Not about to try and  ceiling mount this beast, by myself.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: TonyD on February 04, 2017, 07:59:58 PM
Hey guys thought I wold share some quick impressions. More to come..I've spent a few hours with it today and so far I am thoroughly impressed. Most of my testing was with rec.709 content. Tomorrow I will spend more time with UHD material. On my 10.7ft wide, 2.35 AT screen, I'm getting plenty of light.

10-12ft seems to be the sweet spot for this projector and so far, it does not disappoint. Also - fan noise has not been problem for me. More to come but so far, RS4500 is a winner.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Ccool96 on February 04, 2017, 09:27:15 PM

So some initial impressions of the Z1.

Im actually presently surprised.

One issue that I had major concerns about, which has been discussed at length, is how noisy the unit it. I don't find that to be the case at all, but I'm comparing this unit to other Pro units, not to consumer grade units. Im talking about the unit at max laser power / "Turbo mode" as its been described, when the unit has been running for a while.

Yes is much louder than a RS600, and it is a little louder than my 5000ES at full power, but not as loud as my previous DPI Titan Reference. I don't find this to be a big issue, I just think its a matter of perspective. Guys who have been using big Pro-grade units would not find it to be an issue. Guys who are use to completely silent consumer grade units probably wont be pleased.

Image - No calibration done. Just out of the box settings, the unit looks really nice. At max laser power / Iris open / Natural Mode / D65 setting - I get 2671 lumens. I am running the unit at max laser / iris open currently, and it has a nice punchy image even on a 14' wide screen. This is for blu-ray SDR viewing. (Again I think this is really beyond the limit of what the JVC should be used for.)

I think the Z1 sweet spot, is going to be on screens that are in the 10'-12' wide range. This will gives you many more options in how to run the unit. Either by reducing laser power or by closing down iris some. This will also allow you to open it up more for HDR content.

The dynamic laser dimming is visible in both Mode 1 and Mode 2. There is some "Pumping" without question. Using Lawrence of Arabia, the very beginning where its just a solid black image with music playing, you can see the "Black level" of the image just going up and down, up and down. On my Sony 5000ES, this stays completely black. I think JVC can improve this, but it needs some work. There is also the issue that Kris Deering described, where there can be a quick split-second jump in brightness on certain scene changes from light to dark. Best way I can describe this, is that the Laser is just dimming almost 1/2 a second later than it should. This too can probably be fixed thru future updates.

I haven't gotten down to just comparing scenes directly between the 5000ES and the Z1, but when I compare both at "out of the box" uncalibrated modes, the JVC Z1 at max laser / iris open is basically equal to the Sony with the Laser power set at 50, on a scale from 1 to 100.

More info and screenshot to come shortly.

One other item I noticed, which is very similar to Sony units of the past. Previous Sony units like the 1100ES and the other smaller 4K units, have had issues where the Blue panel was out of convergence for the first 15 mins or so, then it would settle in.

I am seeing this exact same thing on the JVC. At power-up the Red color convergence was out. It required the Red to be moved 2 clicks down to get things in order, but after running if for about 30 mins, I rechecked the unit, and now the red was out the other direction. Resetting the red color back to "0" in both directions looked good after it had settled in.

This might also improve over time, but if not at least it seems to settle into place as the unit warms up.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 05, 2017, 12:32:56 AM
I just got finished watching the 2009 Star Trek reboot on 4K UHD Blu Ray on my RS4500. Not once did I feel this projector lacked enough contrast. I could only see the dynamic dimming misbehave 4 times in 2 hours ( mode 2 ). The secret is this projector is ideal for moderate sized screens in my opinion. My StudioTek 130 G3 screen is 128" diagonal 2.35:1. With a 13.86' throw, I'm rocking 19.93 foot lamberts with the iris at -7 at mid power! The detail and lack of picture noise on this machine is amazing !

With the RS4500, I tried the HDR preset, and I also tried BT.2020, which on my sized screen(s) is do-able. I've come to the conclusion that Kris Deering's suggestion to watch 4K Blu Rays using Rec. 709 just looks more natural. You still get the added detail and clean noise free picture thanks to 4K, and Rec 709 using the natural preset is brighter. That allows me to close down the manual iris more. I have to tell you, there were a few scenes in " Star Trek " tonight that looked damn near as good contrast wise as my RS600 ( but much better in other ways ). And the more I watch the RS4500, the more I realize I was crushing blacks a bit on the RS600. Excellent shadow detail on this projector.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 05, 2017, 12:35:41 AM
I finished installing a new front panel for the RS4500 today, and moved our seating closer still to the screen ( why not ) !

(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16427416_10211901023942028_179235836320390106_n.jpg?oh=f1aba8b300b81c36920ee4d2c556daa9&oe=590D9500)

(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16472897_10211901071463216_7746381642712035410_n.jpg?oh=2781f7d4560f368f71ddefa1365d7734&oe=591055F2)

More tomorrow - it's late !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 05, 2017, 01:23:45 AM
One other item I noticed, which is very similar to Sony units of the past. Previous Sony units like the 1100ES and the other smaller 4K units, have had issues where the Blue panel was out of convergence for the first 15 mins or so, then it would settle in.

I am seeing this exact same thing on the JVC.

This might also improve over time, but if not at least it seems to settle into place as the unit warms up.

One of the things that struck me on first starting up mine was there was no convergence errors at all, nor after some hours of use.  My Sony 1000 was -8 out on blue and converged a little as the projector warmed up.  The Z1 seems stable.  Maybe I struck lucky with mine.

One issue that seems to affect my Z1, as it did my Sony, is that focus seems to drift between sessions, so I shut the unit down with focus spot on, but the projector then starts with focus off.  I then have to check focus each time I start and refocus if necessary.  I had hoped to say goodbye to that particular problem. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 05, 2017, 08:20:51 AM
One of the things that struck me on first starting up mine was there was no convergence errors at all, nor after some hours of use.  My Sony 1000 was -8 out on blue and converged a little as the projector warmed up.  The Z1 seems stable.  Maybe I struck lucky with mine.

One issue that seems to affect my Z1, as it did my Sony, is that focus seems to drift between sessions, so I shut the unit down with focus spot on, but the projector then starts with focus off.  I then have to check focus each time I start and refocus if necessary.  I had hoped to say goodbye to that particular problem.

I will check for that. Maybe focus changes after it warms up ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 05, 2017, 08:49:13 AM
I will check for that. Maybe focus changes after it warms up ?

I'm thinking it's a heat issue.  When you turn the projector OFF it just sits there and stews in its own heat...   I'm going to experiment with running the cold feed for 30 minutes or so after a session to help cool/evacuate all the heat and see if that helps things.  It's a shame my air feed isn't on the Crestron so that I could automate it.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on February 05, 2017, 10:13:36 AM
With the RS4500, I tried the HDR preset, and I also tried BT.2020, which on my sized screen(s) is do-able. I've come to the conclusion that Kris Deering's suggestion to watch 4K Blu Rays using Rec. 709 just looks more natural. You still get the added detail and clean noise free picture thanks to 4K, and Rec 709 using the natural preset is brighter.

How exactly are you handling this? Are you having the UHD BD player send UHD HDR REC2020 to the projector and just putting the JVC in it's REC709 preset mode? Or are you having the color points truncated from REC2020 to REC709?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Ccool96 on February 05, 2017, 10:24:24 AM
How exactly are you handling this? Are you having the UHD BD player send UHD HDR REC2020 to the projector and just putting the JVC in it's REC709 preset mode? Or are you having the color points truncated from REC2020 to REC709?

I'm almost certain he is just outputting SDR REC709 from the Bluray player, since there is an exact specification for how the players convert HDR2020 to SDR709.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 05, 2017, 01:49:30 PM
How exactly are you handling this? Are you having the UHD BD player send UHD HDR REC2020 to the projector and just putting the JVC in it's REC709 preset mode? Or are you having the color points truncated from REC2020 to REC709?

Somebody mentioned that you could do this with the Panasonic UB900, but they never specifically said how to do it. Turns out, you just turn HDR off in the UB900 !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on February 06, 2017, 07:40:30 AM
I'm almost certain he is just outputting SDR REC709 from the Bluray player, since there is an exact specification for how the players convert HDR2020 to SDR709.

I talked to someone at Oppo about this and learned while converting HDR2020 to SDR709 is in the UHD BD spec, it's still complicated.  I discussed with them how the BD and UHD BD even at rec 709 still have different looking gammas (at least on the Oppo) on several movies I closely compared (running the BD in the 103D and UHD BD in the 203 into different inputs A/Bing the scenes at the same time essentially on my RS500).  I see shadow detail crushed and color still a little off at times on the UHD BD at SDR709.  Sometimes a little too much contrast probably from the gamma conversion.  Basically I was told that a conversion curve is needed to match all the values from an HDR signal into the SDR range.  In theory, the player has the potential to restore the same gamma as the BD, however there isn't a "perfect" algorithm for converting an absolute luminance into the relative luminance yet.  So there is going to be some variance and probably some tweaks to optimize this.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 06, 2017, 07:54:27 AM
Which is why the Lumagen process looks exiting.  They hold the 3D cube for your display so can map the HDR into it.  Should be the best possible way to convert HDR.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 06, 2017, 08:27:11 AM
I talked to someone at Oppo about this and learned while converting HDR2020 to SDR709 is in the UHD BD spec, it's still complicated.  I discussed with them how the BD and UHD BD even at rec 709 still have different looking gammas (at least on the Oppo) on several movies I closely compared (running the BD in the 103D and UHD BD in the 203 into different inputs A/Bing the scenes at the same time essentially on my RS500).  I see shadow detail crushed and color still a little off at times on the UHD BD at SDR709.  Sometimes a little too much contrast probably from the gamma conversion.  Basically I was told that a conversion curve is needed to match all the values from an HDR signal into the SDR range.  In theory, the player has the potential to restore the same gamma as the BD, however there isn't a "perfect" algorithm for converting an absolute luminance into the relative luminance yet.  So there is going to be some variance and probably some tweaks to optimize this.

On my RS4500 I'm seeing more shadow detail for sure than on my RS600. I'm finding that with the HDR preset I have to really open up the manual iris quite a bit for the picture to look as bright as when watching with Rec.709. Anyway, it can look good either way ! Watched " Enders Game " on 4K BR last night ( guests movie choice since they help me install the projector Friday ). Amazing amount of detail - the last 1/3 where they attack the Formic's home planet was especially impressive !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 06, 2017, 09:05:16 AM
On my RS4500 I'm seeing more shadow detail for sure than on my RS600.

I'd be inclined to say this is a calibration issue...   with proper calibration, especially a 3D LUT, both should display the same shadow detail.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 06, 2017, 09:48:44 AM
I'd be inclined to say this is a calibration issue...   with proper calibration, especially a 3D LUT, both should display the same shadow detail.

I had some black crush on the RS600 - no doubt.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 06, 2017, 10:13:14 AM
I had some black crush on the RS600 - no doubt.

Have you considered switching to a 3D LUT?  This pretty much resolves all such issues...

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Andreas21 on February 06, 2017, 11:40:00 AM
I had some black crush on the RS600 - no doubt.

That is only a calibration issue, actually the RS600 will show better shadow detail when calibrated to to the same gamma with perfect brightness due to its far superior on/off contrast. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 06, 2017, 08:26:45 PM
RS4500 arrived. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 06, 2017, 08:29:19 PM
RS4500
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 06, 2017, 08:29:50 PM
RS4500
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on February 06, 2017, 08:30:31 PM
Excited to hear your thoughts, Mike! I wish I had the disposable income to join the club!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 06, 2017, 08:31:04 PM
RS4500 mounted on ceiling. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 06, 2017, 11:24:38 PM
That is only a calibration issue, actually the RS600 will show better shadow detail when calibrated to to the same gamma with perfect brightness due to its far superior on/off contrast. :)

The shadow detail will be the same on both, but the higher contrast projector will look subjectively better due to deeper blacks.   Scemantics, I know, but just saying that both projectors are capable of showing the same video details, just differently.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 07, 2017, 06:27:42 AM
Ran my unit for about 6.5 hours yesterday. Did two movies in HDR plus some SDR, so had laser in high power most of the time. Room stayed cool down where I was, but temperature did rise at the ceiling, enough to raise the fan speed higher than I liked. I cut in a return opening up near the ceiling and partially blocked the lower vent, forcing it to draw air from the ceiling. Placed a thermometer on top of the mount and turned on a movie with HDR, so projector is in high lamp. I also installed the diverter. Right now even in high, the projector is fine. If these measure keep the temperature down at the ceiling, I will not need to build a hush box. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Andreas21 on February 07, 2017, 07:44:51 AM
The shadow detail will be the same on both, but the higher contrast projector will look subjectively better due to deeper blacks.   Scemantics, I know, but just saying that both projectors are capable of showing the same video details, just differently.

It depends on how you see it, due to its far greater on/off contrast and also better ANSI contrast the RS600 will look far superior in very low APL scenes due to its far superior intrascene contrast. And it also depends on the gamma curve, the much higher on/off contrast of the RS600 will also make it look better with a 2.4 power law gamma. If it shows more detail can be discussed, but it will definitely look better in my eyes in low APL scenes.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 07, 2017, 08:07:25 AM
I watched Revenant yesterday on the RS4500 in HDR. Nice dark movie, the image looked excellent. I was running in high lamp, manual iris at -8, dynamic dimming in mode 2, natural and HDR on. Did not have the DCI P3 filter in place.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 07, 2017, 08:23:19 AM
A-lens installed and I attached the diverter.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Tom Bley on February 07, 2017, 08:25:26 AM
I watched Revenant yesterday on the RS4500 in HDR. Nice dark movie, the image looked excellent. I was running in high lamp, manual iris at -8, dynamic dimming in mode 2, natural and HDR on. Did not have the DCI P3 filter in place.

Sweet!  Congrats on the new toy, mike.  You watched in high lamp?  :P :D  Is this your first laser projector?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 07, 2017, 08:37:18 AM
Sweet!  Congrats on the new toy, mike.  You watched in high lamp?  :P :D  Is this your first laser projector?

Yes in high power and yes to being first laser projector that I have owned. You need high power for HDR.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Tom Bley on February 07, 2017, 10:14:55 AM
Yes in high power and yes to being first laser projector that I have owned. You need high power for HDR.

High lamp sounded funny to me because it's laser.  Do they still call it low/high 'Lamp' in the menus?  I'm curious how many ft lamberts  you get on your screen with BD & UHD BD.  Enjoy!  8)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 07, 2017, 10:40:30 AM
High lamp sounded funny to me because it's laser.  Do they still call it low/high 'Lamp' in the menus?  I'm curious how many ft lamberts  you get on your screen with BD & UHD BD.  Enjoy!  8)

They call it LD Setting ( laser diode ) low / medium / high .
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 07, 2017, 02:25:34 PM
High lamp sounded funny to me because it's laser.  Do they still call it low/high 'Lamp' in the menus?  I'm curious how many ft lamberts  you get on your screen with BD & UHD BD.  Enjoy!  8)

I actually have not measured. I know what Kris was getting on his screen and used that as a guide to determine what brightness to set it to. Will adjust this weekend. For HDR, I thought I would need to run full out, but I am closing the manual iris to -5. HDR looks really good. Makes it hard to go back to BD.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 07, 2017, 02:49:03 PM
I actually have not measured. I know what Kris was getting on his screen and used that as a guide to determine what brightness to set it to. Will adjust this weekend. For HDR, I thought I would need to run full out, but I am closing the manual iris to -5. HDR looks really good. Makes it hard to go back to BD.

I don't know about that. Blu Rays look outstanding on this projector - especially at 20 foot lamberts ( in mid power ).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ozhdht on February 07, 2017, 03:18:46 PM
Gents, I've gotten feedback from JVC today. They passed on the thoughts that came out the local production house who was testing the Z1 for suitability for film grading. Apparently firm has said that now they've calibrated their unit in conjunction with a local company called Mojo Media Solutions. So far they are apparently happy with results including brightness on screen and accuracy of gamma profiles including DCI, Rec 709 etc. However, the odd comment was added that it seems that you need to manually change the colour temperature when in DCI mode from factory preset (D65) to 5500 Kelvin or colours will appear non compliant. It was suggested I try this setting. Would like to hear Kris' take on this one. Feedback on noise levels was also given and the obvious correlation between ambient room temp was made. The other Z1 was used in room with dedicated cooling and was 'fine' according to them. They tested another in a smaller room and observed noise levels that were far too high also. I may have the opportunity to have the other unit brought to compare to my unit, however I can't see it being particularly different in any respect at this stage. JVC are also sourcing a bunch of those side vents from the factory as soon as possible.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on February 07, 2017, 05:31:00 PM
I would expect to have to do a calibration for each user mode. Grayscale should change since you are now putting a color filter in the light path. I would expect that to have some effect on the grayscale and gamma.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ozhdht on February 07, 2017, 07:18:10 PM
I would expect to have to do a calibration for each user mode. Grayscale should change since you are now putting a color filter in the light path. I would expect that to have some effect on the grayscale and gamma.

What you're say Kris is that commercial calibration guys like these from Mojo Consulting (http://www.mojomediasolutions.com/consultant.html) would have calibrated DCI mode and would that take into account the colour temp in the process? I was thinking this when the D5500 colour mode suggestion was passed on to me by JVC's rep. Perhaps they were assuming I hadn't calibrated mine.

EDIT: JVC have also now told me that the production house testing the Z1 are only just now testing 4K and HDR on it. So I await further feedback after they've completed this part of the testing.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 08, 2017, 12:56:37 AM
Mike, does the vent make a noticeable difference in projector noise?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on February 08, 2017, 06:59:31 AM
What you're say Kris is that commercial calibration guys like these from Mojo Consulting (http://www.mojomediasolutions.com/consultant.html) would have calibrated DCI mode and would that take into account the colour temp in the process? I was thinking this when the D5500 colour mode suggestion was passed on to me by JVC's rep. Perhaps they were assuming I hadn't calibrated mine.

EDIT: JVC have also now told me that the production house testing the Z1 are only just now testing 4K and HDR on it. So I await further feedback after they've completed this part of the testing.

Just saying that I would do separate calibrations for each type of viewing mode (709, DCi, HDR, etc) making sure I had the proper grayscale and gamma for each and obviously the desired peak white on screen (which would probably mean different aperture settings, which also effect grayscale).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 08, 2017, 07:22:55 AM
Mike, does the vent make a noticeable difference in projector noise?

It makes a little bit of difference, since it directs the noise to the side.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 08, 2017, 08:35:16 AM
It makes a little bit of difference, since it directs the noise to the side.

I can send you mine if you want two.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 08, 2017, 10:49:48 AM
I'm curious if everyone has the same initial software ? Mine says V 1.04 .

HDTV ( Dish ) looks cleaner, sharper and better vs my previous VW600 and RS600 - provided Dish is sending a good 1080i signal.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 08, 2017, 11:14:06 AM
1.04 here too (UK).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on February 08, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
1.04 here, which is the latest firmware according to JVC.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 09, 2017, 06:40:09 AM
Also 1.04 here. The clarity and how clean the image is blows me away. Was using high power mode for HDR with iris on -5. Image looked great, but did not like the added noise and heat. Switched to medium with iris open and I am not losing any brightness, but much better with noise level and less heat output. Was going to add a dead vent, but may not have to do this now.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on February 09, 2017, 08:33:45 AM
Installed the vent covers yesterday on both exhaust vents. It does knock the pitch down slightly, but I don't know how much it actually quiets it down. Depending on where you sit in relation to the projector it may dull it enough to make it less noticeable. I noticed a difference more with high laser than mid laser (where I typically run it).

I also got the chance to watch the new UHD release of Billy Lynn, which is 4K60p. Using the Panasonic player this sent 4K60 in 12 bit 4:2:2, and the projector had no issues at all with it. As for the movie, it was awful. Heavily scripted and poorly acted and shot IMHO. I also felt like I was watching a video produced for an after school special that just used good cameras. Sure lots of detail, but it didn't look or feel like a feature film at all. Too many other titles out there that look fantastic that actually are good to waste time on this simply for the novelty of 60p. Blows me away that Ang Lee did this.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 09, 2017, 10:02:46 AM
Also 1.04 here. The clarity and how clean the image is blows me away. Was using high power mode for HDR with iris on -5. Image looked great, but did not like the added noise and heat. Switched to medium with iris open and I am not losing any brightness, but much better with noise level and less heat output. Was going to add a dead vent, but may not have to do this now.

I'm going to 2nd the clarity and clean image. Forget 4K Blu Ray's for a second. Yes, I know this is a 4K projector, but with over 480 Blu Rays in my collection, I'll probably be watching them for the rest of my life. Since Kris reported that the RS4500 was doing excellent upscaling, I did a test last night with my Oppo BDP103 in " source direct " mode. First I watched some of " Avatar ". I watched first upscaling to 4K from my Panasonic UB900, then I switched to the Oppo outputting 1080p. I think it looks ever so slightly better from the Oppo " source direct ". I don't need any motion enhancements on at all - motion looks very good. Super clean image. Virtually no picture noise. Excellent detail. And at least 2 fade to black moments that were very nearly as dark as my RS600 ! Mid laser power, -7 manual iris, mode 2 laser dimming.

For those that complained that the e shift projectors had a " busyness " to the picture, once again, that is non existent on the RS4500 for sure.   

I switched to " Prometheus " next. It's a good dark movie " torture test ". I have to say that 95% of the time, dark scenes look just fine compared to my RS600, and better than my VW600. Bright scenes - no contest - this Blu Ray also looked extremely detailed and super clean. And there was another fade to black that blacked out my theater.

I've got all MPC settings at 0, Graphics mode 4K, all motion enhancement off. Picture mode - Natural, BT.709, 6500K. Gamma - 2.4. Input level 16 - 235. Manual iris -7, mid laser power, dynamic dimming mode 2.   
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 09, 2017, 10:16:51 AM
Not a 3D fan, but decided to check it out and see how it looks on the RS4500. With the lamp based versions, I see flicker. The flicker does not bother me a whole lot, but with the 4500, I did not see any flicker. Nice image and I did not notice any ghosting in the 40 minutes of 3D that I viewed.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 09, 2017, 11:02:55 AM
If anybody wants to come to south central Kentucky to see the RS4500, let me know. Craig has his in CA and shortly we will have our demo theater up and running, with the RS4500 featured in that room.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on February 09, 2017, 02:18:54 PM
I'm going to 2nd the clarity and clean image. Forget 4K Blu Ray's for a second. Yes, I know this is a 4K projector, but with over 480 Blu Rays in my collection, I'll probably be watching them for the rest of my life. Since Kris reported that the RS4500 was doing excellent upscaling, I did a test last night with my Oppo BDP103 in " source direct " mode. First I watched some of " Avatar ". I watched first upscaling to 4K from my Panasonic UB900, then I switched to the Oppo outputting 1080p. I think it looks ever so slightly better from the Oppo " source direct ". I don't need any motion enhancements on at all - motion looks very good. Super clean image. Virtually no picture noise. Excellent detail. And at least 2 fade to black moments that were very nearly as dark as my RS600 ! Mid laser power, -7 manual iris, mode 2 laser dimming.

For those that complained that the e shift projectors had a " busyness " to the picture, once again, that is non existent on the RS4500 for sure.   

I switched to " Prometheus " next. It's a good dark movie " torture test ". I have to say that 95% of the time, dark scenes look just fine compared to my RS600, and better than my VW600. Bright scenes - no contest - this Blu Ray also looked extremely detailed and super clean. And there was another fade to black that blacked out my theater.

I've got all MPC settings at 0, Graphics mode 4K, all motion enhancement off. Picture mode - Natural, BT.709, 6500K. Gamma - 2.4. Input level 16 - 235. Manual iris -7, mid laser power, dynamic dimming mode 2.   

Graphic mode should be 2K if you are using the Oppo in source direct. I've gotten to the point now that I turn off dynamic dimming except for really dark movies. This is what I did with my X750 as well. I rarely notice any issues with dynamic dimming, but I'd rather never see anything at all if I don't have to.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on February 09, 2017, 02:20:29 PM
Not a 3D fan, but decided to check it out and see how it looks on the RS4500. With the lamp based versions, I see flicker. The flicker does not bother me a whole lot, but with the 4500, I did not see any flicker. Nice image and I did not notice any ghosting in the 40 minutes of 3D that I viewed.

Interesting. I used some of my 3D titles that are prone to ghosting and had to turn the crosstalk setting down to like -7 to get a 3D image that was devoid of most if not all ghosting. Performance doesn't seem to be quite as good as the X750 overall here, but setting the crosstalk down quite a bit helped a lot. In default mode I saw a LOT of ghosting with "Despicable Me".
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 09, 2017, 03:13:00 PM
Graphic mode should be 2K if you are using the Oppo in source direct. I've gotten to the point now that I turn off dynamic dimming except for really dark movies. This is what I did with my X750 as well. I rarely notice any issues with dynamic dimming, but I'd rather never see anything at all if I don't have to.

What is the affect of having Graphic mode on 4K for Blu Rays, and I'm guessing it needs to be manually changed for 4K UHD Blu Rays to Graphics Mode 4K ?

And on the other hand, I wonder how 2K Graphics Mode affects 4K content ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on February 09, 2017, 04:26:31 PM
What is the affect of having Graphic mode on 4K for Blu Rays, and I'm guessing it needs to be manually changed for 4K UHD Blu Rays to Graphics Mode 4K ?

And on the other hand, I wonder how 2K Graphics Mode affects 4K content ?

You are telling it what the resolution of the input source is. So for your HDR mode or 4K mode, select 4K. For 1080p sources using 2K.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 09, 2017, 04:33:42 PM
You are telling it what the resolution of the input source is. So for your HDR mode or 4K mode, select 4K. For 1080p sources using 2K.

Makes sense. I was just curious if there was a visible affect - at least on test patterns. I suppose switching is automatic, seeing as it is in the appropriate user mode !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: wkosmann on February 09, 2017, 07:12:52 PM
Quote
If anybody wants to come to south central Kentucky to see the RS4500, let me know. Craig has his in CA and shortly we will have our demo theater up and running, with the RS4500 featured in that room.
 Logged
Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com

Mike;

I would like to drive over and see the RS4500.  I live in Northern Virginia, and would like to drive over, after Winter is over.  When will the demo room be set up with the RS4500 for viewing?

William
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 10, 2017, 07:46:10 AM
Mike;

I would like to drive over and see the RS4500.  I live in Northern Virginia, and would like to drive over, after Winter is over.  When will the demo room be set up with the RS4500 for viewing?

William

Shell of the room is completed. Working on columns now, Once those are complete, we will install all of the equipment. I think we are talking less than a month. I will post, when room is completed and ready for viewing. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: thxman on February 10, 2017, 10:56:08 AM
If anybody wants to come to south central Kentucky to see the RS4500, let me know. Craig has his in CA and shortly we will have our demo theater up and running, with the RS4500 featured in that room.

Maybe when we drive down to Tennessee to check out houses I should make a pit stop and see it Mike!   ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 10, 2017, 01:30:07 PM
Maybe when we drive down to Tennessee to check out houses I should make a pit stop and see it Mike!   ;)

When are you coming down? I am about 2 hours north of Crossville.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ozhdht on February 10, 2017, 09:37:25 PM
Here's a copy of what I just shared over on the AVSF thread after hearing from my JVC contact yesterday:



Some comments were passed on to JVC from the calibration guy at Mojo Media who undertook testing the Z1 this week. They are still yet to test beyond 2K material at this stage but are reporting that they are impressed with black levels, sharpness, Lumens on screen and general colour accuracy. However as per I think all of us here, DCI mode was noted as was woefully inaccurate with standard factory settings but improved greatly when colour temperature adjusted and saved in custom user setting, though still only 90% accurate in DCI after adjustment applied apparently. The next bit of feedback kind of makes me wonder what these guys point of reference benchmark for performance is and also the lack of key information like screen size and gain as apparently there were "no complaints with expected on screen brightness/NITS either before or after adjustment which is interesting compared to your findings and others on forums". Also added was that "All other primary/secondary colour measurement tests accurate" unsurprisingly. The JVC contact then said the lead calibrator passed on his 'settings' which may be useful for me. In reality this was simply the base picture settings that really is totally irrelevant really since my own screen size and gain are going to effect what contrast I run say and why would I run someone elses contrast setting (used on top of their own custom calibration as well) when I can throw up white level pattern any time I want and set my correct contrast in about 30 secs. They had things like -15 contrast in their calibrate rec 709 mode, which struck me as really odd to say the least, but again I have no idea of their calibration results or screen size / gain at this point. There was also a shot of settings for their calibrated DCI mode which had -9 contrast and gamma at 2.6. They have though put me in touch with the lead calibrator to compare notes with which will be interesting. Another post production company tell will be commencing calibration of another unit apparently next week and he too is more than happy to discuss his finding and compare notes.

Perhaps most interesting is that JVC had a conference set up tonight between the global JVC sales offices and the factory D ILA team to address current market feedback including your own findings which they are taking very seriously. I'm told direct feedback will come back from the factory over the weekend. There's also no ETA on when we here can get our hands on those simple exhaust ducts, however JVC continue to push the issue with the factory.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 12, 2017, 10:30:29 AM
I am not a big 3D fan, but 3D with the 4500 is very good. With the RS600 I would always see flicker, that I would have to ignore. With the RS4500 the image is very calm and stable, no flicker.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 12, 2017, 11:05:00 AM
I see flicker in the brightest images, eg skies, but otherwise, yes, it's the best 3D I've personally seen.  But still not a fan and won't be spending any real time with it.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 13, 2017, 12:29:44 PM
For those interested in seeing an RS4500 in action. Projector will be on demo at several AVAD locations. This is generally for dealers, but JVC and AVAD are opening this up for private individuals that are interested in seeing this projector. Have the following locations and dates.

Scottsdale, AZ. Thursday February 16th. On display from 9:00AM to 3:00PM. Any time during those hours.
Dallas, TX. March 1th. 9:00AM to 3:00PM. Any time during those hours.
Fort Lauderdale, FL. March 9th. 9:00AM to 3:00PM. Any time during those hours.
Bellevue, WA. March 28th. 9:00AM to 3:00PM. Any time during those hours.

Additional locations and dates to follow. Will post as more dates are made available. If you would like to make arrangements, shoot me a PM, email or give me a call and I can set it up for you.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: TonyD on February 13, 2017, 04:42:16 PM
Invitation is open for me as well for anyone interested in seeing this projector in action at my home local to the NY/Northern NJ area or feels like taking the ride. :)

Here is a quick snap shot I took from Oblivion on my iPhone 7 plus. This projector is absolutely amazing. Oblivion on the VW1100 never looked this good. I've been going through my collection of BD and UHD films and I'm just in awe. If anyone has any requests for images (movie and chapter) and I have it, let me know. I'll be happy to post.

Image on my ~10.7ft 2.35 Seymour XD screen. Low laser power. Not the best shot from an iPhone but gives you a good idea. Love this projector.

(https://kul5iq.bn1303.livefilestore.com/y3mIKgZPi8ml3mH7-BQ0zwCm9rLWmFaHdTFpIDPdS2IuUUj3F8Sbvm22EoueQ6ObMRdulmTXK10peFZEzTRXvWe6WZoSLltnDnrbtADO4QxTD9z_EgROrZGPPBnVSEqRz1Vgm7vL4ZMwZLo6yBvlLzSt8KbpAeSumJFNLcClPcn2Ok?width=1024&height=768&cropmode=none)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 13, 2017, 06:38:08 PM
Invitation is open for me as well for anyone interested in seeing this projector in action at my home local to the NY/Northern NJ area or feels like taking the ride. :)

Here is a quick snap shot I took from Oblivion on my iPhone 7 plus. This projector is absolutely amazing. Oblivion on the VW1100 never looked this good. I've been going through my collection of BD and UHD films and I'm just in awe. If anyone has any requests for images (movie and chapter) and I have it, let me know. I'll be happy to post.

Image on my ~10.7ft 2.35 Seymour XD screen. Low laser power. Not the best shot from an iPhone but gives you a good idea. Love this projector.

(https://kul5iq.bn1303.livefilestore.com/y3mIKgZPi8ml3mH7-BQ0zwCm9rLWmFaHdTFpIDPdS2IuUUj3F8Sbvm22EoueQ6ObMRdulmTXK10peFZEzTRXvWe6WZoSLltnDnrbtADO4QxTD9z_EgROrZGPPBnVSEqRz1Vgm7vL4ZMwZLo6yBvlLzSt8KbpAeSumJFNLcClPcn2Ok?width=1024&height=768&cropmode=none)

How many foot lamberts in low laser on that screen ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Woof Woof on February 15, 2017, 03:23:28 PM
This thread suddenly seemed very inactive.

Are all the owners playing with their units?

BTW Kris mentioned a new way of calibrating the HDR modes.

Does that use the auto calibration function of the Z1/RS4500?

What other gear do I need to run the auto calibration.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 15, 2017, 04:36:53 PM
This thread suddenly seemed very inactive.

Are all the owners playing with their units?

BTW Kris mentioned a new way of calibrating the HDR modes.

Does that use the auto calibration function of the Z1/RS4500?

What other gear do I need to run the auto calibration.

I actually was not able to play with mine until last night. What Kris is referring to are Manni's custom HDR gammas. I'm assuming that you download them the same way as loading BT.2020 into my RS600.

I'm going to verify that with JVC !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 15, 2017, 05:11:40 PM
I used my new Sper Scientific light meter to re - measure my RS4500. Mind you that these numbers only apply to my setup and should be taken with a grain of salt. If I moved 8" closer to the projector, the numbers jump and I would have much higher numbers. This is mostly so I'll have an idea how bright I'm watching in MY room on MY screen with MY setup. Taken at the screen ( 122" 16:9 Stewart Cima Neve - 1.1 gain ), facing the projector from 14' , Natural mode, manual iris open, auto iris off  -

Low laser - 615.64 lumens. That would give me 15 + foot lamberts.

Mid Laser - 1516.69 lumens. That would give me 38 foot lamberts !

High Laser - 2242.42 lumens. That would give me 56.22 foot lamberts - ha !

The way I've been watching it - Natural mode,  Mid Laser, manual iris at -7, laser dimming mode 2 - 1104.90 lumens, 27.70 foot lamberts ! No wonder I thought it was bright !



Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 18, 2017, 10:40:32 AM
I've noticed a few times while watching films that I am being lit up by light, eg I can see light on my hands, even though I am not obstructing the projector image in any way.  Putting a piece of card up against the projector shows a wide circle of light being thrown way outside the radius of the image itself.  So it's stray light from the lens that is lighting me up.  This is most noticeable when the on-screen image is dark and my eyes are aclimatised to the darkness. This stray light could very well be raising the black floor/lowering contrast.  I will measure tomorrow with my Klein K10A.  If it can be measured that the black floor is being lifted, I will experiment with making some sort mask that can sit in front of the projector to stop it throwing the stray light.

Never noticed this on my Sony 1000.

Anybody else spotted this?  Is it a JVC "thing"?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on February 18, 2017, 10:42:47 AM
I've noticed a few times while watching films that I am being lit up by light, eg I can see light on my hands, even though I am not obstructing the projector image in any way.  Putting a piece of card up against the projector shows a wide circle of light being thrown way outside the radius of the image itself.  So it's stray light from the lens that is lighting me up.  This is most noticeable when the on-screen image is dark and my eyes are aclimatised to the darkness. This stray light could very well be raising the black floor/lowering contrast.  I will measure tomorrow with my Klein K10A.  If it can be measured that the black floor is being lifted, I will experiment with making some sort mask that can sit in front of the projector to stop it throwing the stray light.

Never noticed this on my Sony 1000.

Anybody else spotted this?  Is it a JVC "thing"?

My RS1 also has stray light.  One one point I put a black velvet card along the bottom of the lens to block this.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 18, 2017, 11:19:01 AM
I've noticed a few times while watching films that I am being lit up by light, eg I can see light on my hands, even though I am not obstructing the projector image in any way.  Putting a piece of card up against the projector shows a wide circle of light being thrown way outside the radius of the image itself.  So it's stray light from the lens that is lighting me up.  This is most noticeable when the on-screen image is dark and my eyes are aclimatised to the darkness. This stray light could very well be raising the black floor/lowering contrast.  I will measure tomorrow with my Klein K10A.  If it can be measured that the black floor is being lifted, I will experiment with making some sort mask that can sit in front of the projector to stop it throwing the stray light.

Never noticed this on my Sony 1000.

Anybody else spotted this?  Is it a JVC "thing"?

I haven't seen that. It's coming from inside the lens ? It would have to - my lens has black material around it.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on February 18, 2017, 11:42:04 AM
I used my new Sper Scientific light meter to re - measure my RS4500. Mind you that these numbers only apply to my setup and should be taken with a grain of salt. If I moved 8" closer to the projector, the numbers jump and I would have much higher numbers. This is mostly so I'll have an idea how bright I'm watching in MY room on MY screen with MY setup. Taken at the screen ( 122" 16:9 Stewart Cima Neve - 1.1 gain ), facing the projector from 14' , Natural mode, manual iris open, auto iris off  -

Low laser - 615.64 lumens. That would give me 15 + foot lamberts.

Mid Laser - 1516.69 lumens. That would give me 38 foot lamberts !

High Laser - 2242.42 lumens. That would give me 56.22 foot lamberts - ha !

The way I've been watching it - Natural mode,  Mid Laser, manual iris at -7, laser dimming mode 2 - 1104.90 lumens, 27.70 foot lamberts ! No wonder I thought it was bright !

Just returned from ISE where we measured 40 fl on our 12 feet screen using a Barco prototype Loki (4K 8K lumen phosphor laser) and I honestly have to say; the more the merrier!! This DLPs features about 500:1 ANSI though, resulting in very impressive intra-scene contrast in scenes where you have a typical mix of bright / black sections, although black levels is quite poor on the typical scenes where most of the objects are dark... Still, I´d happily sacrifice some contrast to obtain those dynamics, simply breathtaking when content calls for it. Back to the 13 feet screen and Z1 at my showroom, the blacks are certainly far better, but I do have to admit I miss the extreme light output of the Barco. There´s definately potential in projection still ahead, that´s a good thing at least! As for the Z1, reducing the screen size to move towards 30-40 fl I´m quite confident it´ll look even more impressive...!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 19, 2017, 01:07:43 AM
I haven't seen that. It's coming from inside the lens ? It would have to - my lens has black material around it.

It's coming from/through the lens.  Just hold a piece of cardboard in front of the lens and you will see the wide spill halo around the main image.  I'm about to head into my room and see if I can measure anything from the spill, ie whether it is raising the black floor. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 19, 2017, 03:39:48 AM
Couldn't measure any black level change off the screen (perhaps a benefit of a non-reflective black pit), but did notice myself being lit up again during the film, so have crafted a bit of card covered in velvet to block the light spill.

It's easiest to see the spill when the projector is displaying a black field.  You can then move your hands around the non-screen region and see them light up as they enter the sphere of light spill.  During darker scenes in movies I became aware of the same, as well as my clothes being lit too, which is a distraction.

Will be interesting to watch the next movie with the spill barrier in place.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 19, 2017, 03:43:06 AM
Still being blown away by this projector, especially with UHD discs.  My "too large" screen really allows one to see all the extra resolution of the 4K discs :P
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 19, 2017, 09:55:44 AM
Watched another film this afternoon with the light spill "filter" in place.  Much better.  Instead of being lit up, I am once again sat in total darkness without distraction.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on February 19, 2017, 12:23:56 PM
Couldn't measure any black level change off the screen (perhaps a benefit of a non-reflective black pit), but did notice myself being lit up again during the film, so have crafted a bit of card covered in velvet to block the light spill.

It's easiest to see the spill when the projector is displaying a black field.  You can then move your hands around the non-screen region and see them light up as they enter the sphere of light spill.  During darker scenes in movies I became aware of the same, as well as my clothes being lit too, which is a distraction.

Will be interesting to watch the next movie with the spill barrier in place.

That "Halo" is there on the RS/X-series as well and it would probably be a very good idea to get rid of it! Wanna upload a pic of your custom made "light spill voider"?? :):)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 19, 2017, 01:39:56 PM
That "Halo" is there on the RS/X-series as well and it would probably be a very good idea to get rid of it! Wanna upload a pic of your custom made "light spill voider"?? :):)

Interesting - I never noticed that.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on February 19, 2017, 02:44:54 PM
Interesting - I never noticed that.

Well, to be more spesific, I´ve only had a RS400 and a couple of X5000s at my private cinema (I replace them quite often, I like´em "young´n fresh"... ;)), where I noticed these halos, never did look for or notice it specifically at the RS600 running on my showroom though, so in theory it might not be there on RS500/600...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 20, 2017, 12:21:10 AM
That "Halo" is there on the RS/X-series as well and it would probably be a very good idea to get rid of it! Wanna upload a pic of your custom made "light spill voider"?? :):)

The filter is just a bit of card with a 16:9 hole cut in it :)  Covered it in black velvet, to match the hush box, and to avoid reflections backwards to the projector, and stapled it to the front of the box so that the hangs down in front of the lens without obstructing the vents.  Cheapest upgrade to my room yet! :D
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on February 20, 2017, 10:31:23 AM
Tested a couple of of 4K UHD content today on the Z1; Oblivion and The Huntsman. Dynamic laser modulation still flickers the light output up and down from time to time, but I am confident this issue will be resolved in a firmware update from JVC. Might actually be a defective on this particular unit as others are not seeing this the way I am. On "The Huntsman" UHD, in the scene where the snow queen first "preaches" to her newly kidnapped kid-soldiers, the image brightness was going up and down 3-4 times during this scene alone... Other than that a number of other image parameters are very impressive. I´d say my overall impression is that the projector really makes out a "35mm/70mm filmlike" or "organic" type of image, especially when all image processing is turned off and in "natural" mode. I guess the native 4K in combination with the very stabile laser light (except again laser modulation issues...) calls for this appearance. Film grain as well as subtle details are more clearly depicted than I have ever seen before from a digital (home cinema) projector...

Sharpness, color reproduction (rec709) as well as image movement stability is really impressive as well. Light output is also quite good, but as stated before, this projector will probably work best on a <10ft wide screen so that the fixed iris can be tuned down a bit and thus obtain better absolute blacks. On my 13 feet wide screen, absolute blacks are not currently "there" as I need to keep the iris open to produce enough light output (+ high laser mode), but I have still not had the unit calibrated so it runs a default 2.4 gamma so this might be possible to improve on quite signicantly. Perhaps not the absolute black itself, but the detailing, currently somewhat "black crushed" at times, is certainly most lightly possible to improve on.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 20, 2017, 10:38:18 AM
Is there an easy way to get updated when (if?!) new firmwares arrive or do we have to keep an eye on some webpage somewhere?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 20, 2017, 11:28:26 AM
Tested a couple of of 4K UHD content today on the Z1; Oblivion and The Huntsman. Dynamic laser modulation still flickers the light output up and down from time to time, but I am confident this issue will be resolved in a firmware update from JVC. Might actually be a defective on this particular unit as others are not seeing this the way I am. On "The Huntsman" UHD, in the scene where the snow queen first "preaches" to her newly kidnapped kid-soldiers, the image brightness was going up and down 3-4 times during this scene alone... Other than that a number of other image parameters are very impressive. I´d say my overall impression is that the projector really makes out a "35mm/70mm filmlike" or "organic" type of image, especially when all image processing is turned off and in "natural" mode. I guess the native 4K in combination with the very stabile laser light (except again laser modulation issues...) calls for this appearance. Film grain as well as subtle details are more clearly depicted than I have ever seen before from a digital (home cinema) projector...

Sharpness, color reproduction (rec709) as well as image movement stability is really impressive as well. Light output is also quite good, but as stated before, this projector will probably work best on a <10ft wide screen so that the fixed iris can be tuned down a bit and thus obtain better absolute blacks. On my 13 feet wide screen, absolute blacks are not currently "there" as I need to keep the iris open to produce enough light output (+ high laser mode), but I have still not had the unit calibrated so it runs a default 2.4 gamma so this might be possible to improve on quite signicantly. Perhaps not the absolute black itself, but the detailing, currently somewhat "black crushed" at times, is certainly most lightly possible to improve on.

I don't have " The Huntsman " UHD, but I do have " Oblivion ". I have watched " Oblivion " quite a few times on my RS600, both on Blu Ray, and later on UHD BR. On my StudioTek 130 ( 118" wide 2.35:1 ) I have lots of headroom in mid laser. In fact, I decided last night - after watching " Hell or High Water " on Blu Ray, that it really was too bright even with the manual iris at -7 ( 27.70 foot lamberts on my 16:9 screen ). So I've closed it to -9 ( need to get a reading for foot lamberts tonight ). I'm thinking maybe there is something going on with your unit - I can watch Oblivion beginning to end, and never see the dynamic dimming misbehave other than a brief instance ( same as any other dynamic iris I've seen ). Maybe I got " golden sample " .  ;)

I watched a bit of " Jupiter Ascending " on 4K UHD. After having watched it on my RS600, I was prepared to be disappointed black level wise. Actually, it looks amazing, and the dynamic dimming works well here too !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 20, 2017, 11:28:50 AM
Is there an easy way to get updated when (if?!) new firmwares arrive or do we have to keep an eye on some webpage somewhere?

Let me ask my JVC guy.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Ccool96 on February 20, 2017, 09:58:25 PM
Tested a couple of of 4K UHD content today on the Z1; Oblivion and The Huntsman. Dynamic laser modulation still flickers the light output up and down from time to time, but I am confident this issue will be resolved in a firmware update from JVC. Might actually be a defective on this particular unit as others are not seeing this the way I am. On "The Huntsman" UHD, in the scene where the snow queen first "preaches" to her newly kidnapped kid-soldiers, the image brightness was going up and down 3-4 times during this scene alone... Other than that a number of other image parameters are very impressive. I´d say my overall impression is that the projector really makes out a "35mm/70mm filmlike" or "organic" type of image, especially when all image processing is turned off and in "natural" mode. I guess the native 4K in combination with the very stabile laser light (except again laser modulation issues...) calls for this appearance. Film grain as well as subtle details are more clearly depicted than I have ever seen before from a digital (home cinema) projector...

Sharpness, color reproduction (rec709) as well as image movement stability is really impressive as well. Light output is also quite good, but as stated before, this projector will probably work best on a <10ft wide screen so that the fixed iris can be tuned down a bit and thus obtain better absolute blacks. On my 13 feet wide screen, absolute blacks are not currently "there" as I need to keep the iris open to produce enough light output (+ high laser mode), but I have still not had the unit calibrated so it runs a default 2.4 gamma so this might be possible to improve on quite signicantly. Perhaps not the absolute black itself, but the detailing, currently somewhat "black crushed" at times, is certainly most lightly possible to improve on.


There is nothing wrong with your unit. I have had two units now. Both have the exact same problem you are describing with the dynamic iris. And I have seen other mention it too, even if they are not overly bothered by it.

It's promenent in any material that switches back and forth from dark to bright content. The best way I can describe it, is that the Laser is just a half a second to late in making the adjustment. It's like one frame behind.

So you are not alone, this just needs to be tweaked by JVC.  If JVC will get a firmware update out to address this issue, and possibly tame the fan noise slightly, the unit would be just about flawless. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on February 21, 2017, 12:50:53 AM

There is nothing wrong with your unit. I have had two units now. Both have the exact same problem you are describing with the dynamic iris. And I have seen other mention it too, even if they are not overly bothered by it.

It's promenent in any material that switches back and forth from dark to bright content. The best way I can describe it, is that the Laser is just a half a second to late in making the adjustment. It's like one frame behind.

So you are not alone, this just needs to be tweaked by JVC.  If JVC will get a firmware update out to address this issue, and possibly tame the fan noise slightly, the unit would be just about flawless.

OK, thanks, hoping for a firmware update then, I´ll certainly report this issue to my JVC representative as well just to make sure they get the input from a sufficient amount of channels! :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 21, 2017, 07:48:55 AM
Is there an easy way to get updated when (if?!) new firmwares arrive or do we have to keep an eye on some webpage somewhere?

Just keep an eye out here - if and when new firmware comes out, we will post the news immediately !!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 22, 2017, 06:44:22 AM
I see that halo with lots of different projectors. Most of the time I do not notice in my black pit of a room, but if I move a projector to my family room setup, which has off white walls, I can see the light scatter. Last projector that i did this with was a Vivitek H9090. Did not notice light spill in my room, but saw a complete circle of light spill in the family room. I never moved my RS600 to the family room, to check it.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 22, 2017, 08:49:35 AM
I did some playing around last night with my RS4500. Got it set at a more reasonable 20 foot lamberts - ha ! The HDR preset looks really good with a lot of titles I've watched so far. But I'm even more impressed still with Blu Rays on this projector - which is good, since I have hundreds of them. One pet peeve of mine with the RS600 was film grain looking much more pronounced on movies like MI : Ghost Protocol and Interstellar. Took me a few hours going back and forth with my Sony VW600 to get the film grain / video noise ( some of you guys called them " crawlies " ) to look identical ( which I did by turning off the MPC settings ). I'm now of the conclusion that the Panasonic UB900 upscaling Blu Rays to 4K looks better than source direct from my Oppo BDP103. With one or two clicks of noise reduction ( all MPC settings in the RS4500 to 0 ), and a click or two of sharpness in the UB900 ( like Javs has been using with his RS600 ), Blu Rays look amazing. That film grain / noise is gone ( now it looks like it did on my VW600, for you Sony fans ), detail is fantastic, no down sides that I can see ( good UB900 test report in the Feb. / March Sound and Vision magazine on how the sharpness setting doesn't add ringing and how the noise reduction doesn't soften the picture too much - sharpening probably offsets that ).

Now I have to figure out what to watch for my 61st birthday tomorrow - maybe I'll see how Gladiator - one of my favorite Ridley Scott films, looks on the RS4500 now !  So many movies, so little time !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ed weinman on February 22, 2017, 12:47:23 PM
Now I have to figure out what to watch for my 61st birthday tomorrow - maybe I'll see how Gladiator - one of my favorite Ridley Scott films, looks on the RS4500 now !  So many movies, so little time !
[/quote]

...stop with the age already!!...be lucky that your reaching 61...i've past it 14 years ago!...yes, so many movies,so little time!...(now, I'll go back to sleep, thank you)...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: John Schuermann on February 22, 2017, 09:00:48 PM
Hello all! We are holding three Colorado based home theater seminars in March, featuring the JVC RS4500 and RS620. Mike Garrett posted about it here, in the "Home Theater Seminar" thread:

https://discuss.avscience.com/?topic=387.msg3952#msg3952

It's a great chance to see the RS4500 and RS620 in action, plus other products from Stewart, Revel, JBL Synthesis, etc. Kris Deering will be one of our special guest presenters, along with Chris Deutsch of JVC, Gregg Loewen of THX, and Robert Keeler from Stewart. Dates are March 11 and 12th (Denver, Marriott Tech Center) and March 18th (Colorado Springs Marriott). Click on the link above for all the details. Thanks to Mark and the gang at AV Science for allowing us to post about this!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 23, 2017, 07:50:21 AM
A contact from JVC stopped by last night to check out my theater, and play with my RS4500. We did a lot of switching back and forth between the HDR pre-set mode and trying it with BT.2020 color space. While the color looks a little better ( we agreed at the end that we were really splitting hairs here ) with BT.2020, I think overall it looks better - dark scenes especially - with the HDR pre-set mode. The scene in the 4k version of Star Trek ( 2009 ) where the Romulan space ship goes across the scene ( right after " Three Years Later " ) - you can see a lot more detail, and overall the picture is brighter. even at my setting of -7 or -8 manual iris, mode 2 dimming. So while I can easily light up my 118" wide 2.35:1 ST 130 screen with BT.2020, for me, the HDR pre-set wins. Star Trek 4K, Kingsman 4K, Lone Survivor 4K - all looked outstanding !

We watched some HDTV ( Dish ) with the RS4500 set on High Bright. It looked fine - you could easily watch the Super Bowl on High Bright - colors were close enough. With a 100 IRE test pattern High Bright yielded 687 lux - which on my 122" diagonal 16:9 Stewart Cima Neve, gives me 70.23 foot lamberts ! That's going with Stewarts published 1.1 gain for the Neve. If you go by Accucal's measured 1.25 gain, that's 79.80 foot lamberts - nearly 80 foot lamberts ! It was easy to watch with full lighting on in the room - that's for sure !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Ccool96 on February 23, 2017, 08:58:43 AM
@AVSCraig,  My unit measured out almost identical to your original findings, of just shy of 2300 lumens / max Laser / iris open in natural mode.

So what was done different, so now you have 2800 lumens? What mode was that measured in?  The 500 lumen difference is a huge deal to me. 

Also, I have looked at that Accucal screen report and some of those numbers don't make any sense. They show the EN4K material at 0.84, but when I shoot my fabric with a Minolta LS100 and then compare it to a sample of Studiotec 100, which is a Refernce 1.0 gain, that gives my EN4K fabric a gain of 0.7. This is also exactly what sound and vision measured when they reviewed the EN4K screen as well.

Thanks
Chris
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 23, 2017, 09:20:17 AM
@AVSCraig,  I have actually been emailing Chris about my unit and your unit.  My unit measured out almost identical to your original findings, of just shy of 2300 lumens / max Laser / iris open in natural mode.

So what was done different, so now you have 2800 lumens? What mode was that measured in?  The 500 lumen difference is a huge deal to me. 

Also, I have looked at that Accucal screen report and some of those numbers don't make any sense. They show the EN4K material at 0.84, but when I shoot my fabric with a Minolta LS100 and then compare it to a sample of Studiotec 100, which is a Refernce 1.0 gain, that gives my EN4K fabric a gain of 0.7. This is also exactly what sound and vision measured when they reviewed the EN4K screen as well.

Thanks
Chris

Craig noted he used High Bright, not Natural mode.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 23, 2017, 09:21:40 AM
Craig noted he used High Bright, not Natural mode.

That is also one of the reasons, I am going to switch to V6 fabric. V6 has a little higher gain.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Ccool96 on February 23, 2017, 09:32:40 AM
That is also one of the reasons, I am going to switch to V6 fabric. V6 has a little higher gain.

What fabric do you currently have?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 23, 2017, 09:44:45 AM
@AVSCraig,  I have actually been emailing Chris about my unit and your unit.  My unit measured out almost identical to your original findings, of just shy of 2300 lumens / max Laser / iris open in natural mode.

So what was done different, so now you have 2800 lumens? What mode was that measured in?  The 500 lumen difference is a huge deal to me. 

Also, I have looked at that Accucal screen report and some of those numbers don't make any sense. They show the EN4K material at 0.84, but when I shoot my fabric with a Minolta LS100 and then compare it to a sample of Studiotec 100, which is a Refernce 1.0 gain, that gives my EN4K fabric a gain of 0.7. This is also exactly what sound and vision measured when they reviewed the EN4K screen as well.

Thanks
Chris

High Bright yielded 2800 lumens. We switched on HDTV ( Dish ) and for something like the Super Bowl, it looked fine. Obviously you wouldn't use that for watching a movie, but it would be plenty fine for the NBA playoffs with all the lights on. And trust me, Chris said " turn some lights on - this is hurting my eyes " - it was blazing bright !

Don't know what to tell you about the screen report. Jeff has ST 100 samples, and ST 130 G3 samples, and I gave him the Cima Neve samples myself. But even at 1.1 gain, I get over 70 foot lamberts !  ;D
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Ccool96 on February 23, 2017, 10:08:56 AM
High Bright yielded 2800 lumens. We switched on HDTV ( Dish ) and for something like the Super Bowl, it looked fine. Obviously you wouldn't use that for watching a movie, but it would be plenty fine for the NBA playoffs with all the lights on. And trust me, Chris said " turn some lights on - this is hurting my eyes " - it was blazing bright !

Don't know what to tell you about the screen report. Jeff has ST 100 samples, and ST 130 G3 samples, and I gave him the Cima Neve samples myself. But even at 1.1 gain, I get over 70 foot lamberts !  ;D

Ok this makes more sense now. I just shot mine with the Minolta LS100, and in High Brightness mode I get right at or just over 3000 lumens. The downside is the image is super green, but it would be usable I guess for certain events if extra brightness was needed.

What I want to know is if these units should be calibrated from "High Brightness" color temp, to get more output but correct colors. I noticed if I took the HB mode, and turned the Green Gain down to -40, it was basically the same brightness as D6500 setup.

So I do see how this yields more light output, the question becomes, if its fully calibrated from HB vs D6500, once the calibration is done, do you actually net out any additional lumens!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 23, 2017, 10:28:24 AM
Ok this makes more sense now. I just shot mine with the Minolta LS100, and in High Brightness mode I get right at or just over 3000 lumens. The downside is the image is super green, but it would be usable I guess for certain events if extra brightness was needed.

What I want to know is if these units should be calibrated from "High Brightness" color temp, to get more output but correct colors. I noticed if I took the HB mode, and turned the Green Gain down to -40, it was basically the same brightness as D6500 setup.

So I do see how this yields more light output, the question becomes, if its fully calibrated from HB vs D6500, once the calibration is done, do you actually net out any additional lumens!

I'd say that like " dynamic mode " on an Epson or " bright tv " mode on a Sony, you trade accuracy for lumens. Do you think any of your friends could tell after 3 beers, watching the Super Bowl, with the lights on in the room ? I'd say no. We couldn't tell the difference watching " Wheel of Fortune " at 70 foot lamberts - Vanna White looked smoking hot as ever. Or maybe that was my screen starting to smoke...........................
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 23, 2017, 02:25:18 PM
What fabric do you currently have?

EN4K
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Ccool96 on February 23, 2017, 07:45:14 PM
EN4K

Do we have a true reading of what the gain is on the V6 fabric? When I compared my EN4K with a sample of StudioTec 100, using a Minolta LS-100, I can see that the EN4K has a gain of .7.

I'm don't know how that Accucal report has it measured at .84 because mine is no where near that. I wonder if the fabric changed at some point. I noticed the Sound & Vision review has the EN4K measured at a gain of .7 also. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 24, 2017, 06:30:34 AM
Do we have a true reading of what the gain is on the V6 fabric? When I compared my EN4K with a sample of StudioTec 100, using a Minolta LS-100, I can see that the EN4K has a gain of .7.

I'm don't know how that Accucal report has it measured at .84 because mine is no where near that. I wonder if the fabric changed at some point. I noticed the Sound & Vision review has the EN4K measured at a gain of .7 also.

Around 0.84. I can clearly see that it is brighter than EN4K, when the two are compared together.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on February 24, 2017, 09:54:46 AM
Light spill on these might be slightly more than the other JVCs, which have always had a slight amount around the image. The reason is this is a true 4K (4096x2160) D-ILA panel, so if you aren't scaling the image to fill the full width, you'll have more spill on each side of the active image than before. This should not be noticeable with a good frame, but it is still there. Spill on top and bottom should be the same as the other JVCs. I didn't see any issues with my review unit.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 24, 2017, 11:03:49 AM
Kris, the spill I'm talking about is way outside the image frame.   I sit 11' back from my screen and the spill is on me, not the screen.    I've attached an image to show what I see when I hold a card up to the projector;  the rectangle being the projected image and the circular region being the extent of the spill.

With my spare-no-expense cardboard filter in place I have no spill at all.  Just came out from watching a film and I am once again sat in pitch blackness, instead of being lit by the spill.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 24, 2017, 11:36:38 AM
With a 0 IRE test pattern, I don't see this " spill " - is it only certain content ? Bright material ? I guess I need to hold up a piece of paper and test for this. Can't actually see it in my room - and never noticed it with my RS600, so it must be subtle ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 24, 2017, 11:53:21 AM
It's clearly visible if you hold a piece on of card a few inches from the lens.  Show a 100ire field to make it more obvious. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ask4me2 on February 25, 2017, 12:51:41 AM
Do the light spill change with different zoom settings on the lens?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 25, 2017, 01:13:07 AM
Do the light spill change with different zoom settings on the lens?

Given that others claim not to see it, I'm also wondering the same...

My throw is 26', so I am at the far end of the zoom, with my projected image using only a small amount of the lens.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on February 25, 2017, 01:30:09 AM
The other issue with not being able to see it will maybe depend where you sit in relation to the projector.  If the projector's "spill cone" misses your seating position then you wouldn't necessarily see it.  I do sit within my spill cone, which is why I noticed my clothes being lit from light coming from behind me, rather than reflected off the screen...

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 27, 2017, 08:24:01 AM
Given that others claim not to see it, I'm also wondering the same...

My throw is 26', so I am at the far end of the zoom, with my projected image using only a small amount of the lens.

My projector is 13.85 feet from a 118" wide 2.35:1 screen. It's about as close as possible to my size screen.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 27, 2017, 10:26:35 AM
Well, my RS4500 is pretty quiet now. I installed a powered dead vent right above my RS4500. So I can keep the air intake to the projector nice and cool. Before doing this, I could keep the temperature at seated level nice and cool, but heat collected at the ceiling and caused the fan to speed up, increasing the fan noise. Now I have the dead vent, tied into the 12 volt trigger on the RS4500, so when projector goes on, vent is triggered on by 12 volt relay. Currently running the vent at 80CFM, but can go up to 110CFM. Watched a couple movies in HDR, using high laser output and projector stayed nice and quiet. No need to me to build a hush box now. Since the zone the theater room is in is already in positive pressure, I am dumping the excess heat into a different, larger zone.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 27, 2017, 11:10:43 AM
Nice !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 27, 2017, 03:45:36 PM
JVC DLA-RS4500 D-ILA Projector Review

By Kris Deering • Posted: Feb 27, 2017


http://www.soundandvision.com/content/jvc-dla-rs4500-d-ila-projector-review#R3qWtl1pFg5S6WeH.97
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 27, 2017, 04:11:41 PM
Great review Kris !  :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 28, 2017, 04:02:31 PM
It's " Hacksaw Ridge " night in my theater tonight ( full house in fact ) with my RS4500 !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on February 28, 2017, 09:34:58 PM
I watched Hacksaw Ridge this afternoon. I had already seen the movie, but not in 4K HDR on the RS4500. Great movie, Sound and video was top notch. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on February 28, 2017, 09:53:31 PM
I hadn't seen the entire movie - it was outstanding on the RS4500. My guests were blown away - period !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on March 01, 2017, 10:57:14 AM
I picked up Hacksaw Ridge yesterday and will probably give it a run this weekend. Also picked up Everest and Gatsby at BB as they were on sale for $18.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on March 01, 2017, 11:05:57 AM
I picked up Hacksaw Ridge yesterday and will probably give it a run this weekend. Also picked up Everest and Gatsby at BB as they were on sale for $18.

Everest is one of my favorite movies. Haven't watched the 4K version yet, other than some brief scenes, but I double dipped that one with no hesitation. Gatsby is a hoot and some real eye candy. But Hacksaw Ridge is now one of my favorite films. I can't wait to watch it again - amazing movie, great sound track, excellent picture. Very realistic battle scenes!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on March 01, 2017, 02:47:33 PM
Might have to grab Everest.  Watched the BD some time ago and liked it; great movie for a front projection set-up and really good audio.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on March 01, 2017, 04:51:01 PM
Might have to grab Everest.  Watched the BD some time ago and liked it; great movie for a front projection set-up and really good audio.

The picture looks even better on the 4K disc - color is more true to life. Just watched a bit trying to get some screen shots - not too successful, as my camera setup leaves much to be desired !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on March 02, 2017, 09:08:10 AM
A few years ago, my wife wanted a nice camera. I bought her a Nikon 5100 and she never uses it. :(
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on March 02, 2017, 09:28:02 AM
A few years ago, my wife wanted a nice camera. I bought her a Nikon 5100 and she never uses it. :(

At least you're set up for screen shots then !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on March 02, 2017, 11:01:52 AM
The picture looks even better on the 4K disc - color is more true to life. Just watched a bit trying to get some screen shots - not too successful, as my camera setup leaves much to be desired !

Try go on full manual on your camera, set ISO 100, F6,3 or around and start with a 1 sec exposure, and see how looks, then you can evaluate the picture and make longer or shorter exposure, you might need to set color temperature up or down depending on the scene your shooting, and most of the time turn down contrast setting if possible on the camera.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on March 02, 2017, 11:31:52 AM
At least you're set up for screen shots then !

Not really. I just know how to point and shoot. Never was that interested in photography.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on March 03, 2017, 09:30:00 AM
I watched " The Martian " on 4K BR last night. I've seen this movie several times - first at a 4K Dolby Digital cinema at Cedia in 2015. Then I watched it on my Sony VW600, and then on my ( then ) new JVC RS600. Parts of this movie ( on Blu Ray were also useful when comparing the VW600 to the RS600. I must have flipped back and forth trying to get video noise / film grain to look close on both 2 dozen times !

When 4K Blu Rays first came out, I played along with everyone else trying to get the damn thing to look right on the Samsung 4K BR player and projector ( and with an HD Fury Integral ) in the beginning. And now, I finally sat down to watch it on my RS4500.  Using the HDR pre - set mode ( mid laser, dimming mode 2, manual iris -5 ), finally I can say that colors look correct and outstanding, and detail is incredible. There are a lot of shots in this movie - the Nasa control center where they have walls of screens, the crowd in the streets on Earth watching the final rescue, the shots of the Hermes in space - where detail looks sharper, crisper and cleaner than either the RS600 or VW600 can do. I can easily see fine details on Kristen Wiig's dress. That's the one thing I notice more than anything -

There were shots inside the Hermes when they prepare to slow the spacecraft down, where I could easily see some video noise on the RS600 ( 98% removed by taking the MPC settings down to 0 ). This was the video noise that drove some Sony owners out of their minds when switching to the RS500 / 600. Totally clean looking picture on the RS4500.

I swear, every projector I've owned has a slightly different look to it. The RS4500 is starting to remind me more of a 3 chip DLP with 4K resolution and DCI color, the more I watch it !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on March 03, 2017, 11:18:00 AM
I watched " The Martian " on 4K BR last night. I've seen this movie several times - first at a 4K Dolby Digital cinema at Cedia in 2015. Then I watched it on my Sony VW600, and then on my ( then ) new JVC RS600. Parts of this movie ( on Blu Ray were also useful when comparing the VW600 to the RS600. I must have flipped back and forth trying to get video noise / film grain to look close on both 2 dozen times !

When 4K Blu Rays first came out, I played along with everyone else trying to get the damn thing to look right on the Samsung 4K BR player and projector ( and with an HD Fury Integral ) in the beginning. And now, I finally sat down to watch it on my RS4500.  Using the HDR pre - set mode ( mid laser, dimming mode 2, manual iris -5 ), finally I can say that colors look correct and outstanding, and detail is incredible. There are a lot of shots in this movie - the Nasa control center where they have walls of screens, the crowd in the streets on Earth watching the final rescue, the shots of the Hermes in space - where detail looks sharper, crisper and cleaner than either the RS600 or VW600 can do. I can easily see fine details on Kristen Wiig's dress. That's the one thing I notice more than anything -

There were shots inside the Hermes when they prepare to slow the spacecraft down, where I could easily see some video noise on the RS600 ( 98% removed by taking the MPC settings down to 0 ). This was the video noise that drove some Sony owners out of their minds when switching to the RS500 / 600. Totally clean looking picture on the RS4500.

I swear, every projector I've owned has a slightly different look to it. The RS4500 is starting to remind me more of a 3 chip DLP with 4K resolution and DCI color, the more I watch it !

You remember me telling you the same thing, several months back.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on March 03, 2017, 11:24:38 AM
I do - it's like my Sim Lumis Host mated with a Sony VW1100, and that offspring mated with an RS600, and the RS4500 is the result !  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on March 05, 2017, 08:46:04 PM
Had a few people over today to check out my RS4500, including two forum members that own JVC projectors. Demo'd quite a bit of 4K material, including The Martian, Deadpool, Everest, Kingsman, and Blu Rays including Avatar and Eric Clapton Live at Madison Square Gardens. Everyone commented on how blacks and contrast looked excellent - far better than they thought based on " the numbers ". Also, they thought that 4K has a really clean, clear look on the RS4500.

Joe C. stayed and we watched some of Gravity, and Gravity in 3D ond other 3D ). One thing I noticed on my RS600 ( and to a lesser degree on my VW600 ) was some video noise watching Gravity ( the 2D Blu Ray version ). You can see it where the earths atmosphere and space come together for one. It wasn't present on the 3D Blu Ray with the RS600. Anyway, it's gone on the RS4500 - the picture looks a lot cleaner.

Everyone left and I watched The Revenant - one of my first 4K Blu Ray's I bought, which caused me to strip HDR out originally with the HD Fury Integral, since I didn't like what HDR did to the picture on my RS600. Watching using the HDR pre - set user mode on the RS4500 looked outstanding - it's really a treat to watch this beautifully shot film in HDR the way it's supposed to look ! That was my Sunday! 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on March 06, 2017, 02:59:05 PM
JVC is going to demo the RS4500 tomorrow at AVAD in Nashville on a 144" Black Diamond.

The projector is setup and the picture looks amazing!

Call AVAD to RSVP.

615-333-8353

AVAD
725 Airpark Center Dr.
Nashville, TN. 37217

Ask for Shawn.

Must RSVP.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on March 07, 2017, 07:08:51 PM
RS4500 demo Thursday. Please RSVP.

AVAD Fort Lauderdale
3301 SW 42nd Street
Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33312
Phone: 954-358-4434
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: John Schuermann on March 08, 2017, 05:00:59 PM
Yet another update on an RS4500 demo :) Here is the tentative schedule for our Denver Home Theater Seminar events, March 11 and 12, 1 - 6 pm. Please keep in mind this is tentative and may change. Also please keep in mind that there will be a separate "breakout" room without a set schedule you can visit any time during the 1 - 6 pm show hours. Denver show is at the Tech Center Marriott.

1:00 - Introduction: What we will cover, introduce special guests Kris Deering of Sound and Vision and Gregg Loewen of Lion AV / THX

1:10 - Quick "Teaser" Demo of JVC DLA-RS4500, Stewart StudioTek 130, and JBL Synthesis sound system

1:15 - Introduction: Chris Deutsch of JVC - products on display

1:20 - Introduction: Robert Keeler of Stewart Filmscreen - products on display

1:25 - Brad and John of The Screening Room highlight audio products in both rooms supplied by JBL, Revel and Anthem

1:30 - JVC and Video Presentation #1 JVC projector technology, UHD, WCG, 4K

1:55 - UHD Demo

2:00 - BREAK

2:05 - Projectors vs. flat panels, more discussion of the latest video technologies

2:25 - How to get rid of black bars - aspect ratios

2:40 - Immersive Audio - Atmos, DTS-X, Auro - intro to JBL Synthesis and Revel

2:55 - Scope / 2.35:1 and Immersive Audio Demo

3:00 BREAK

3:05 Stewart Filmscreen and the big screen experience

3:10 Choosing the right screen material for the room and projector

3:25 Science vs. Snake Oil, plus discussion of the research undertaken by Dr. Floyd Toole and Dr. Sean Olive

3:45 Audio Demos / discussion

3:50 Home Theater Room Layout 1 - Video

4:00 BREAK

4:05 Home Theater Room Layout 2 - Audio

4:15 THX Video Calibration / Calibration - Gregg Loewen

4:35 Demos - UHD, Immersive Audio, Blu-ray

4:50 BREAK

5:00 Panel Discussion / Q&A, with Kris Deering (Sound and Vision), Gregg Loewen (THX), Chris Deutsch (JVC), Robert Keeler (Stewart Filmscreen), plus John Schuermann and Brad Waite of The Screening Room

6:00 End Credits roll

Main Seminar Room Equipment list:

JVC DLA-RS4500 THX Certified True 4K HDR Projector
Stewart Filmscreen 153" 2.35:1 StudioTek 130 Screen
Three JBL M2 Master Reference Monitors (LCR)
Four JBL LSR708i Master Reference Monitors (Side and Rear Surround)
Four Revel C763L Atmos Certified In-Ceiling Speakers (Height Channels)
Two JBL S2S-EX 15" subwoofers
Anthem AVM60 Pre-Amp Processor
Three JBL Synthesis SDA4600 amps
One JBL Synthesis SDA8300 amp
Oppo UDP203 UHD Blu-Ray Player
Kaleidescape Media Server

"Breakout Room" Equipment list (open for demos / discussion during show hours):

JVC DLA-RS620 Projector
Stewart Filmscreen 135" 16:9 PHANTOM High Ambient Light Rejecting Screen
Revel F208 Tower Speakers
Revel C208 Center Speaker
Revel M106 Bookshelf / Surround Speakers
Revel B112 Subwoofer
Anthem MRX720 Atmos Receiver
Emotiva XPA3 Amplifier

Please contact us directly at seminar@thescreeningroomav.com with any questions / RSVP. Thanks!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on March 08, 2017, 08:53:54 PM
That's a great line up of demos and home theater talent !  :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on March 09, 2017, 08:34:21 AM
I wanted to know more about the RS4500 and how laser works, so I asked a couple of questions -

Q - Since there are 48 laser diodes, and even if one or two go out ( malfunction ), the others continue to work - is there an internal diagnostic or way to determine if any laser diodes are not working? Maybe in the service menu ?

A - The current and temperature is monitored in the service menu on the LDs.


Q - I'm curious whether on / off cycles have any impact, like " lamp strikes " do on lamps, on longevity of the laser diodes.

A - There is no loss of light on turn on and turn off commands.  Loss of light output really depends on how you drive the LDs.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on March 10, 2017, 12:15:28 PM
Took measurements to see what FL I am watching in. Only measured scope, since that would be the dimmest, vs 16:9 on my scope screen. For BD I use medium power and iris at 11. I am getting 17.4FL. For HDR I am using HDR preset with medium power and iris fully open. In this mode I am getting 35.7FL. If I go to high power mode, iris open, then I get 47.3FL.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on March 10, 2017, 02:01:18 PM
A little bit of news. JVC has been listening to their customers and in the near future a firmware update is coming to address, what I would say are the main two issues, fan noise level and dynamic laser dimming. Really looking forward to the update. I currently use my unit in medium laser power mode for HDR (35/36FL), but I may have to consider high laser power (47FL) once we get this update. Also very excited about the improved dynamic dimming. Hopefully with the ease of a USB update we get more of these improvements. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on March 11, 2017, 01:07:07 AM
A little bit of news. JVC has been listening to their customers and in the near future a firmware update is coming to address, what I would say are the main two issues, fan noise level and dynamic laser dimming.

Interesting!  I just added a second vent, which significantly dropped the noise level in my room.  Today I'm going to dress the vents in some computer damping foam to see if I can lower the noise further.  Perhaps, combined with a firmware that lowers overall noise this beast will finally be tamed.

Will be interested to test any updates to laser dimming, but I haven't felt hard done by not using it thus far.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on March 12, 2017, 09:36:07 PM
Watched " Hacksaw Ridge " again last night with friends and my wife, who hadn't seen it. The movie looks amazing - really a great reference disc for this projector. A mighty fine film too I might add. I forgot I had left it on dimming mode 1 and manual iris -4 ( -4 is still plenty bright on my 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST 130 screen, and helps a little with contrast ). Anyway, the night scenes in the foxhole on the battlefield looked outstanding. Superior detail compared to my previous setting of mode 2. 

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on March 13, 2017, 09:25:42 AM
Watched " Hacksaw Ridge " again last night with friends and my wife, who hadn't seen it. The movie looks amazing - really a great reference disc for this projector. A mighty fine film too I might add. I forgot I had left it on dimming mode 1 and manual iris -4 ( -4 is still plenty bright on my 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST 130 screen, and helps a little with contrast ). Anyway, the night scenes in the foxhole on the battlefield looked outstanding. Superior detail compared to my previous setting of mode 2.

With HDR content, I have not been running the dynamic dimming. I am anxious to see what dynamic dimming looks like once the new firmware is released. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on March 13, 2017, 10:54:43 AM
With HDR content, I have not been running the dynamic dimming. I am anxious to see what dynamic dimming looks like once the new firmware is released. :)

You'll want to run it with movies like Star Trek or Jupiter Ascending - looks better IMO.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on March 13, 2017, 09:00:00 PM
Watched " Hacksaw Ridge " again last night with friends and my wife, who hadn't seen it. The movie looks amazing - really a great reference disc for this projector. A mighty fine film too I might add. I forgot I had left it on dimming mode 1 and manual iris -4 ( -4 is still plenty bright on my 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST 130 screen, and helps a little with contrast ). Anyway, the night scenes in the foxhole on the battlefield looked outstanding. Superior detail compared to my previous setting of mode 2.

The standard BD is a mess: full of banding and artifacts.  Should have never passed QC.  I'll buy the UHD BD one of these days.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on March 13, 2017, 09:04:35 PM
I haven't bothered to watch the BR that came with it. That's too bad. You would think they could get both the BR and the 4K UHD BR right these days.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: rak306 on March 15, 2017, 01:27:25 PM
The standard BD is a mess: full of banding and artifacts.  Should have never passed QC.  I'll buy the UHD BD one of these days.

I saw some banding on the UHD version in a sky scene at the beginning of the film, but not in later scenes where that I thought would be susceptible to banding (a sunrise scene with sky gradient).  This was on a RS600, with custom gamma curve, though, so YMMV.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: John Schuermann on March 15, 2017, 03:00:42 PM
By show of hands, it appeared that several at our Denver Home Theater Seminar found out about our event from this Forum - sincere thanks for being there, especially those that flew in specifically just to see us! We all hope you had a good time  And for those of you who missed the event don't forget that we have an additional seminar planned for this Saturday, March 18, in Colorado Springs. While the overall seminar schedule will be the same, this time we will have the JVC DLA-RS4500 and DLA-RS620 JVC projectors (and screens from Stewart) in the same room. Same is true for the Revel F208 / C208 / M106 surround system and JBL M2 / LSR708i / S2S-EX / C763L Atmos system. The Colorado Springs event will be from 1-6 pm at the Colorado Springs Marriott, 5580 Tech Center Dr, Colorado Springs, CO 80919. Chris Deutsch from JVC and Gregg Loewen from THX will be special presenters.

For anyone who attended the Denver event on Saturday, we'd like to invite you back to the Colorado Springs event at no charge. We found out after checking a few sound anomalies during our Saturday session that the JBL M2 Master Studio Reference Monitors and S2S-EX subwoofers were mis-calibrated. If you’d like another chance to audition these amazing speakers, please feel free to attend our Colorado Springs event this Saturday. Again, not a sales event - this is educational only.

Thanks to our friends at AV Science Discussions for letting us post about this! Here is a direct link to our Facebook event page if you'd like to sign up: https://www.facebook.com/events/1671605399799663/
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ozhdht on March 21, 2017, 09:46:32 PM
Wanted to share some feedback here (not as widely as on AVS) from a industry calibrator contact of mine who got to spend time with the 4500 in dedicated demo room and calibrate a few modes with an eye to see how the unit would perform in a professional post production application. I found his comments about DCI filter mode vs rec.2020 mode interesting as I swear I thought DCI was meant to possess the widest colour gamut with the filter in place and that rec.2020 was a non-filter mode that goes as far as possible without a filter.

Anyway, here's the observations he made and shared:

All measurements were taken using the FilmLight ‘Truelight’ projector probe (spectrometer+colorimeter mode) and verified against a Photo Research PR655 instrument - the numbers obtained by the two measuring devices were very close (<0.5% difference) so I am confident that the results are accurate.
 
These tests were primarily concerned with the DCI ‘P3’ performance of the projector as this is the main interest for typical film grading suites, however the performance of Rec.709 was also checked.
 
Out of the box the so-called ‘DCI’ profile was a little off in terms of the white point and gamut. The red and green primaries were very close to the DCI P3 spec but the blue was somewhat undersaturated. Even after manually applying correction to the white point and primaries it seemed impossible to get the blue primary to reach the full P3 gamut:

(https://s12.postimg.org/6z2nooqu5/DCI.png)

I am a little unsure as to exactly what the different ‘profiles’ set internally inside the projector but my guess is that they are applying some sort of target gamut mapping onto the native gamut of the primaries. This data I assume is recorded into the projector memory as part of the initial factory calibration as it will vary from projector to projector and would require specialist equipment (ie. a spectrometer) to do accurately.
 
My next test was therefore to start with a profile labelled ‘custom’ (with a D65 white point) - I assumed that this would either not apply any gamut mapping or at least give me access to the projector primaries which I would then be able to manually adjust. However, as can be seen below, the gamut was actually much smaller (close to sRGB/Rec.709) than the DCI profile and I was again unable to push the primaries out any further - they could however be brought in! The white point was again very close to D65 without any adjustment.
 
(https://s1.postimg.org/4i3qqbz7z/D65.png)

The third test was to start with the Rec.2020 profile - this did have a larger gamut than DCI (which I would expect) although not the full Rec. 2020 colour space. This is reasonable as the projector does not claim to cover the full Rec.2020 gamut and in fact I am not aware of any projector in this price range which can do so. Again, I adjusted the primaries and this time I was able to achieve a very close match to the target DCI P3 primaries (as measured by both the Truelight projector probe and the PR655). The chart below shows these results. Note that I also made a very slight adjustment to the brightness setting to give the correct black cutoff point.

(https://s4.postimg.org/95bq8px2l/rec2020.png)

 
Once fully adjusted you can see that the white point is very close to the standard DCI white point and that the primaries are also very close. I was also able to shift the white point to D65 using the colour temperature controls in the projector without any significant change to the primaries which leads me to believe that the colour matrixing in the unit is pretty accurate.
 
The projector was producing a contrast ratio of around 5000:1 in this mode which is perfectly acceptable for colour grading and in the right environment (in conjunction with the high power lamp setting) would probably be ok for HDR work - although I would need to do a whole different set of tests in order to accurately check out the HDR profiling of the projector. As you know it is still very early days for the grading of movies in HDR, especially on smaller projectors such as the Z1 and I would need to first obtain appropriate display transforms in order to get sensible results for HDR. The luminance level was measured to be around 100cd/m2 with the lamp set to its medium value - this is somewhat high for standard DCI grading but it can be offset using the projector’s aperture adjustment or via the display profile if using a grading system such as Baselight and of course it would be lower on a larger screen.
 
From a configuration and usability perspective I would say that the process of setting it up could be made easier. The following factors make it a little hard to set up in the dark environment of a typical grading theatre:
- Menu system is a little tricky to navigate using the remote control
- As soon as you adjust most parameters they are stored into the current mode setting. It is therefore easy to accidentally adjust something you have already set - I would prefer all controls to allow you to make changes interactively and then choose to save them, or not.
-  It is not entirely clear what the adjustments for the colour primaries (Color Management setting: Axis Position, Hue, Saturation, Brightness) are doing. I would prefer to see simple x,y adjustments for each primary. There also appeared to be interaction between some of the parameters although it wasn’t obvious what was going on. Finally, these adjustments didn’t appear to behave in a very linear fashion - changing the Axis position for example would have no visible effect at all for a few steps in value and then it would suddenly jump. This could imply excessive precision rounding in the internal processing or maybe a processing or UI bug.
 
For ease of calibration and setup I would prefer to have a software tool which I could run on a laptop - connected via the ethernet port on the back of the projector. The laptop could then be used to store and download profiles into the projector’s memories which could then be selected using the remote.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on March 22, 2017, 07:12:22 AM
Quote
For ease of calibration and setup I would prefer to have a software tool which I could run on a laptop - connected via the ethernet port on the back of the projector. The laptop could then be used to store and download profiles into the projector’s memories which could then be selected using the remote.

Download the JVC Calibration software and you can do exactly what you describe, simple as that ;-)

Quote
It is not entirely clear what the adjustments for the colour primaries (Color Management setting: Axis Position, Hue, Saturation, Brightness) are doing. I would prefer to see simple x,y adjustments for each primary. There also appeared to be interaction between some of the parameters although it wasn’t obvious what was going on.

They do exactly what the say, Hue changes the color of the primary (secondary), saturation the saturation and brightness changes the luminance of the color. The are the x,y and Y parameters.
Interaction between those parameters is in every single projector I have ever calibrated over the past 15 years ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ozhdht on March 22, 2017, 04:53:54 PM
Download the JVC Calibration software and you can do exactly what you describe, simple as that ;-)

They do exactly what the say, Hue changes the color of the primary (secondary), saturation the saturation and brightness changes the luminance of the color. The are the x,y and Y parameters.
Interaction between those parameters is in every single projector I have ever calibrated over the past 15 years ;)

Yeah I was kind of wondering what this pro guy was saying when he said software as surely JVC would have pointed out their software to him. I'm going to go back with that suggestion.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on March 22, 2017, 09:24:53 PM
Holy crap - Passengers in 4K looked absolutely amazing on the RS4500 ! Stunning picture ! Fun movie too !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on March 23, 2017, 07:05:43 AM
Wanted to share some feedback here (not as widely as on AVS) from a industry calibrator contact of mine who got to spend time with the 4500 in dedicated demo room and calibrate a few modes with an eye to see how the unit would perform in a professional post production application. I found his comments about DCI filter mode vs rec.2020 mode interesting as I swear I thought DCI was meant to possess the widest colour gamut with the filter in place and that rec.2020 was a non-filter mode that goes as far as possible without a filter.

Anyway, here's the observations he made and shared:

All measurements were taken using the FilmLight ‘Truelight’ projector probe (spectrometer+colorimeter mode) and verified against a Photo Research PR655 instrument - the numbers obtained by the two measuring devices were very close (<0.5% difference) so I am confident that the results are accurate.
 
These tests were primarily concerned with the DCI ‘P3’ performance of the projector as this is the main interest for typical film grading suites, however the performance of Rec.709 was also checked.
 
Out of the box the so-called ‘DCI’ profile was a little off in terms of the white point and gamut. The red and green primaries were very close to the DCI P3 spec but the blue was somewhat undersaturated. Even after manually applying correction to the white point and primaries it seemed impossible to get the blue primary to reach the full P3 gamut:

(https://s12.postimg.org/6z2nooqu5/DCI.png)

I am a little unsure as to exactly what the different ‘profiles’ set internally inside the projector but my guess is that they are applying some sort of target gamut mapping onto the native gamut of the primaries. This data I assume is recorded into the projector memory as part of the initial factory calibration as it will vary from projector to projector and would require specialist equipment (ie. a spectrometer) to do accurately.
 
My next test was therefore to start with a profile labelled ‘custom’ (with a D65 white point) - I assumed that this would either not apply any gamut mapping or at least give me access to the projector primaries which I would then be able to manually adjust. However, as can be seen below, the gamut was actually much smaller (close to sRGB/Rec.709) than the DCI profile and I was again unable to push the primaries out any further - they could however be brought in! The white point was again very close to D65 without any adjustment.
 
(https://s1.postimg.org/4i3qqbz7z/D65.png)

The third test was to start with the Rec.2020 profile - this did have a larger gamut than DCI (which I would expect) although not the full Rec. 2020 colour space. This is reasonable as the projector does not claim to cover the full Rec.2020 gamut and in fact I am not aware of any projector in this price range which can do so. Again, I adjusted the primaries and this time I was able to achieve a very close match to the target DCI P3 primaries (as measured by both the Truelight projector probe and the PR655). The chart below shows these results. Note that I also made a very slight adjustment to the brightness setting to give the correct black cutoff point.

(https://s4.postimg.org/95bq8px2l/rec2020.png)

 
Once fully adjusted you can see that the white point is very close to the standard DCI white point and that the primaries are also very close. I was also able to shift the white point to D65 using the colour temperature controls in the projector without any significant change to the primaries which leads me to believe that the colour matrixing in the unit is pretty accurate.
 
The projector was producing a contrast ratio of around 5000:1 in this mode which is perfectly acceptable for colour grading and in the right environment (in conjunction with the high power lamp setting) would probably be ok for HDR work - although I would need to do a whole different set of tests in order to accurately check out the HDR profiling of the projector. As you know it is still very early days for the grading of movies in HDR, especially on smaller projectors such as the Z1 and I would need to first obtain appropriate display transforms in order to get sensible results for HDR. The luminance level was measured to be around 100cd/m2 with the lamp set to its medium value - this is somewhat high for standard DCI grading but it can be offset using the projector’s aperture adjustment or via the display profile if using a grading system such as Baselight and of course it would be lower on a larger screen.
 
From a configuration and usability perspective I would say that the process of setting it up could be made easier. The following factors make it a little hard to set up in the dark environment of a typical grading theatre:
- Menu system is a little tricky to navigate using the remote control
- As soon as you adjust most parameters they are stored into the current mode setting. It is therefore easy to accidentally adjust something you have already set - I would prefer all controls to allow you to make changes interactively and then choose to save them, or not.
-  It is not entirely clear what the adjustments for the colour primaries (Color Management setting: Axis Position, Hue, Saturation, Brightness) are doing. I would prefer to see simple x,y adjustments for each primary. There also appeared to be interaction between some of the parameters although it wasn’t obvious what was going on. Finally, these adjustments didn’t appear to behave in a very linear fashion - changing the Axis position for example would have no visible effect at all for a few steps in value and then it would suddenly jump. This could imply excessive precision rounding in the internal processing or maybe a processing or UI bug.
 
For ease of calibration and setup I would prefer to have a software tool which I could run on a laptop - connected via the ethernet port on the back of the projector. The laptop could then be used to store and download profiles into the projector’s memories which could then be selected using the remote.

For mode selection you have:

Rec709
BT2020   Filter in place for UHD using BT2020 container.
HDR    No filter in place but wider than Rec709 (86% DCI color space)
DCI   Filter in place for DCI content (not using BT2020 container)

HDR is the mode that gives as wide of a color space as possible without the filter in place for use with UHD HDR.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ozhdht on March 23, 2017, 06:33:02 PM
For mode selection you have:

Rec709
BT2020   Filter in place for UHD using BT2020 container.
HDR    No filter in place but wider than Rec709 (86% DCI color space)
DCI   Filter in place for DCI content (not using BT2020 container)

HDR is the mode that gives as wide of a color space as possible without the filter in place for use with UHD HDR.

Of course, thanks Mike. Been a week or so since I've watched any UHD, so I was forgetting that BT2020 does indeed use the filter and confusing it with HDR mode. I probably slipped back into the old RS500 frame of reference after spending last weekend with mine again at my weekender ;).  Of course DCI mode would be extremely irrelevant to most of us end users as opposed to post production houses.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on March 30, 2017, 05:24:44 PM
The new firmware is online http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-z1_rs4500/ (http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-z1_rs4500/)

Not a lot of info regarding the "specific conditions" where the dynamic function is improved.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on March 30, 2017, 05:33:09 PM
So just got my copy of Planet Earth II Blu-Ray 4K HDR with no 4K projector to view it on.  Has anybody watched it on a RS4500 yet?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ozhdht on March 30, 2017, 05:46:47 PM


So just got my copy of Planet Earth II Blu-Ray 4K HDR with no 4K projector to view it on.  Has anybody watched it on a RS4500 yet?

Yep got it two days ago locally. I've watched it on other displays like my Sony Z9 in 1080p upscaled around the time it went to air. The UHD disc is pretty spectacular on the 4500. I watched parts of each episode on the first disc the other night.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on March 30, 2017, 09:31:09 PM
The new firmware is online http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-z1_rs4500/ (http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-z1_rs4500/)

Not a lot of info regarding the "specific conditions" where the dynamic function is improved.

Anyone download it and try it yet ? I can't since I'm out of town for the weekend.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ozhdht on March 30, 2017, 09:59:48 PM
Anyone download it and try it yet ? I can't since I'm out of town for the weekend.

I made some early comments back on the AVSForum Owner's thread. I only had an hour with it last night. Mike posted a bit more on the other thread, which you're probably across by now. He seems to been more impressed with the Dynamic Dimming improvement than I was in my brief viewing late night viewing session. I should have noted some scenes to test before and after like he did.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on March 31, 2017, 08:27:49 PM
Getting full fade to black and am not seeing the jump in the brightness when going from a dark scene to a bright scene. Now running mode 2 on dynamic dimming.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on April 01, 2017, 01:36:59 AM
Also, not seeing the jumps with 1.10, but there is NO full fade to black.  Retested this today, all three laser modes (iris 0), with a 0 IRE test pattern.  My screen remains brighter than the room...  My old Sony 1000 had a significantly [better] fade to black than the Z1.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 01, 2017, 08:26:55 AM
Also, not seeing the jumps with 1.10, but there is NO full fade to black.  Retested this today, all three laser modes (iris 0), with a 0 IRE test pattern.  My screen remains brighter than the room...  My old Sony 1000 had a significantly [better] fade to black than the Z1.

Same with actual fades to black in movies ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on April 02, 2017, 12:46:05 AM
Same with actual fades to black in movies ?

Same.  Mike suggested on AVS to try the hide button.  Same thing - screen is still lit up in my room, which is a black velvet pit, with no light sources.  This projector cannot do true fade to black.  With the Sony 1000 I was left blind for a few seconds on fade to black, but with the Z1 it's a momentary thing as eyes adjust to the dark, but still lit screen, so no good for extended black scenes.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on April 02, 2017, 09:50:24 PM
It's interesting to hear Mike's projector acting differently compared to others. He's posted pictures over on the other forum that shows his unit does indeed do a FFTB with the laser shutting off. I hope Mike can figure out what's causing this discrepancy.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on April 03, 2017, 06:43:21 AM
Also, not seeing the jumps with 1.10, but there is NO full fade to black.  Retested this today, all three laser modes (iris 0), with a 0 IRE test pattern.  My screen remains brighter than the room...  My old Sony 1000 had a significantly [better] fade to black than the Z1.

Make sure you are using dynamic dimming mode 2. If you are using mode 1, it will not act the same.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 03, 2017, 08:48:47 AM
Make sure you are using dynamic dimming mode 2. If you are using mode 1, it will not act the same.

I had enough time last night after getting home, to download the firmware. No real time to test anything after a 9 1/2 hour drive and over 30 minutes to download the firmware into the projector. I'll do some testing tonight.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on April 03, 2017, 09:06:10 AM
Make sure you are using dynamic dimming mode 2. If you are using mode 1, it will not act the same.

Already tested, and no full fade for me with mode 2 either.  Very strange indeed.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 03, 2017, 09:10:47 AM
Already tested, and no full fade for me with mode 2 either.  Very strange indeed.

I'm just as interested to see if mode 2 dimming is improved. The Revenant tripped up mode 2 pretty bad ( mode 1 however worked fine ), so I'll throw that on tonight.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 03, 2017, 01:41:07 PM
I just tested the scenes in the Blu Ray " Inglorious Bastards ", in the bar in the basement, where our Nazi impostors are being questioned by a real Nazi, and the scene switches quickly back and forth. A forum member here pointed to this as a torture test for dynamic irises ( I'm going to remember this one - good test ). Every time it switched from the impostors at the table ( bright ), to the real Nazi standing at the end of the table ( dark ), I could see the laser dimming " flick " closed ( mode 2 ) prior to the new firmware. With the new firmware update, I could barely see one instance of the dimming working, then it was totally seamless.
Settings - mid laser, mode 2 dimming, -7 manual iris, Natural user mode.

The Revenant was a 4K movie where I could also see mode 2 dynamic dimming working too much ( mode 1 worked well though - only saw it misbehave maybe 2 or 3 times in 2 hours ). Anyway, while I did not watch the entire movie today ( it's a work day after all, although this is technically work ), what I did watch showed zero dynamic dimming artifacts.   
Settings - mid laser, mode 2 dimming, -4 manual iris, HDR user mode.

My other settings are close to Kris's - http://www.soundandvision.com/content/jvc-dla-rs4500-d-ila-projector-review-settings#LebbB8ogXHvEyhOp.97
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on April 03, 2017, 08:48:44 PM
I just tested the scenes in the Blu Ray " Inglorious Bastards ", in the bar in the basement, where our Nazi impostors are being questioned by a real Nazi, and the scene switches quickly back and forth. A forum member here pointed to this as a torture test for dynamic irises ( I'm going to remember this one - good test ). Every time it switched from the impostors at the table ( bright ), to the real Nazi standing at the end of the table ( dark ), I could see the laser dimming " flick " closed ( mode 2 ) prior to the new firmware. With the new firmware update, I could barely see one instance of the dimming working, then it was totally seamless.
Settings - mid laser, mode 2 dimming, -7 manual iris, Natural user mode.


Out of curiosity, I'll have to test this on the LS10000.  Great movie.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on April 04, 2017, 10:53:45 AM
Just updated firmware too, watched a number of scenes today where laser "flickering" was very apparent and visible pre 1.01 and I did not once see the iris pulsate! Good work JVC! I will continue to look for artifacts, but even if I am still able to reproduce it it´s probably no longer any big deal. Also, one of the clips I had a look at today was the intro scene in Gravity; iris open, dimming at 2, 13 ft wide screen; truly stellar image quality, starting to like this JVC beast more and more..... ;) NOW - if they could only get that dreaded static and terribly projector unfriendly HDR upgraded to the dynamic Dolby Vision once available (it´s supposed to be possible to run through software too...) I won´t have to purchase Z2 next year either, let´s hope JVC appreciated us laser pioneers and feeds us some additional (firmware) goodies!?! :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on April 04, 2017, 11:36:05 AM
...problem with allowing firmware update to Dolby Vision, when come to think of it, is probably license cost... In such case; I also own a Tesla and I encourage JVC to think like mr. Musk; giving stuff away makes for loyal all the way!! 3 years of driving a Tesla I am yet to pay any roaming cost for data download, they gave me free Spotify a year ago and new features appear all the time... I´d be more than willing to pay a fee for a more functional HDR feature too by the way; highlights sub-programmed at a per frame level just makes so much more sense from a technical and logical standpoint than simply ripping the entire movies off of most of its dynamics to give room for the current HDR bull...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 04, 2017, 12:06:01 PM
...problem with allowing firmware update to Dolby Vision, when come to think of it, is probably license cost... In such case; I also own a Tesla and I encourage JVC to think like mr. Musk; giving stuff away makes for loyal all the way!! 3 years of driving a Tesla I am yet to pay any roaming cost for data download, they gave me free Spotify a year ago and new features appear all the time... I´d be more than willing to pay a fee for a more functional HDR feature too by the way; highlights sub-programmed at a per frame level just makes so much more sense from a technical and logical standpoint than simply ripping the entire movies off of most of its dynamics to give room for the current HDR bull...

The question is will there be DV on 4K UHD Blu Ray before I amass any more movies ? I'm already up to about 40 titles.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 04, 2017, 12:20:18 PM
I must say the the HDR user preset has made me happy to just " plug and play " 4K UHD BR's at ths point. I think they look great !  :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on April 04, 2017, 02:55:28 PM
Besides projectors capping off their dynamic range to leave room for HDR, the other main issue is that no movie seems to have been mastered alike! I mean; take The Revenant and Deadpool @ HDR for example - you basically need to recalibrate or at least tune gamma totally different for both movies to avoid bunch of noise on low IRE on The Reverant OR black crush on Deadpool..... I mean; what were they thinking releasing such an unfinished "feature" and leaving the mess to the public to figure out. I understand something was needed after 3D failed, SURE, but our entire industry is really doing themselves no service by introducing "standards" that really are not. I guess the main problem is that we no longer have this one strong entity that controls stuff, like the good ol´ VHS days, or Walkman for that matter. HDR being a "open format" is really what has made all these approaches differ on both the mastering side and display as well... Thus, I have no problem paying Dolby a fair license to actually put the madness into some kind of system, and before they do I´ll convert all 4K movies to SDR 10-bit which I am perfectly happy with for the time being... :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on April 04, 2017, 03:03:24 PM
I must say the the HDR user preset has made me happy to just " plug and play " 4K UHD BR's at ths point. I think they look great !  :)

The Z1 might be good at tuning HDR from various mastering techniques for all I know by the way Craig! I have only tested the DLA-X5000 using the custom gamma curve and oversaturated settings manually on a screen that was acceptably sized for HDR (100"). Never even tested HDR on the Z1, my previous experience was such a disappointment that I simply have avoided HDR altogether. But you know what; I´ll give the Z1 a go @ HDR tomorrow, zooming in a 100-120" image, and I´ll do The Reverant + Deadpool again just to see if the automatic HDR stuff on the Z1 actually has been able to compensate somewhat for the issues with mastering differences... I´ll report back my findings! :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on April 04, 2017, 03:57:20 PM
...problem with allowing firmware update to Dolby Vision, when come to think of it, is probably license cost... In such case; I also own a Tesla and I encourage JVC to think like mr. Musk; giving stuff away makes for loyal all the way!! 3 years of driving a Tesla I am yet to pay any roaming cost for data download, they gave me free Spotify a year ago and new features appear all the time... I´d be more than willing to pay a fee for a more functional HDR feature too by the way; highlights sub-programmed at a per frame level just makes so much more sense from a technical and logical standpoint than simply ripping the entire movies off of most of its dynamics to give room for the current HDR bull...

If we get any DV  UHD  HDR content, then maybe a firmware purchase for DV.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Woof Woof on April 04, 2017, 06:10:30 PM
The question is will there be DV on 4K UHD Blu Ray before I amass any more movies ? I'm already up to about 40 titles.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/dv-bd-201703284449.htm

Quote
The first Dolby Vision 4K Ultra HD Blu-rays appeared to have broken cover, and they are the Despicable Me and Despicable Me 2 animated movies from Universal Studios. A Dolby Vision logo was spotted on the back cover artwork of the discs by an eagle-eyed Blu-ray.com member, with the main feature description stating “UHD Dolby Vision/ HDR10 1.85:1 Widescreen”.

Despicable Me Dolby Vision 4K Blu-ray

If true, this makes them the first confirmed 4K Blu-ray titles to support Dolby Vision (DV). To date, all Ultra HD Blu-rays available to buy on the market are only compatible with the open-standard HDR10 format. To clarify, the Dolby Vision metadata will be embedded as an enhanced layer on top of the base HDR10 layer on these Despicable Me discs, so even if you don’t own a Dolby Vision-capable 4K Blu-ray player or HDR TV, you can still watch them in HDR10 ultra-high-definition (UHD) resolution.
(http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/image/news/dm2.jpg)
However, in theory Dolby Vision should offer a superior HDR presentation especially on lesser displays owing to the use of dynamic metadata, which is why many video enthusiasts are clamouring for Dolby Vision content and hardware. We did an indepth comparison of Dolby Vision versus HDR10 on a 2016 LG OLED TV, and thought the former to be better, but felt the advantages shrunk significantly on more capable TVs (specifically top-tier full-array local dimming LED LCDs with peak brightness above 1000 nits). That said, buying a high-end television in 2017 will likely become a tick-box exercise, with prospective buyers thinking twice before spending if Dolby Vision is absent.

Despicable Me and Despicable Me 2 are scheduled for release on the 6th of June 2017. LG’s 2016 and 2017 OLEDs already support Dolby Vision out of the box, and Sony’s ZD9/ Z9D, XE93/ XE94 and A1 OLED will hopefully receive DV firmware updates by then too. In terms of players, the LG UP970 and the OPPO 203 are two we know will bring Dolby Vision compatibility following software upgrades.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on April 05, 2017, 01:51:06 AM
...and if JVC had taken a quick lesson in "do count your chickens before they're hatched", like mr. Musk certainly must be the master of; they´d already introduce the DV update as a future option for the Z1... ;) Still, dynamic metadata will probably be available through regular (dynamic) HDR mastered movies too, question remains if HDMI 2.1 would be required in such case? It seems DV is able to deliver the metadata through HDMI 2.0a (18Gbps) though. Anyhow; new features will always appear and I am not saying people should wait it out - as one would certainly in such case wait forever - but as for current static HDR and projection I am really not a fan, obviously, but I´ll certainly give it a go on the Z1 just for the fun of it! :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 05, 2017, 08:06:06 AM
The Z1 might be good at tuning HDR from various mastering techniques for all I know by the way Craig! I have only tested the DLA-X5000 using the custom gamma curve and oversaturated settings manually on a screen that was acceptably sized for HDR (100"). Never even tested HDR on the Z1, my previous experience was such a disappointment that I simply have avoided HDR altogether. But you know what; I´ll give the Z1 a go @ HDR tomorrow, zooming in a 100-120" image, and I´ll do The Reverant + Deadpool again just to see if the automatic HDR stuff on the Z1 actually has been able to compensate somewhat for the issues with mastering differences... I´ll report back my findings! :)

It looks quite good on the Z1 / RS4500. I've watched the following 4K BR's with HDR - " John Wick ", " Star Trek ", " The Revenant " ( twice ), " Kingsman ", " The Magnificent Seven ", " Arrival ", " The Accountant ",  " Hacksaw Ridge " ( twice ), " Salt ", " Allied ", " Enders Game ", " Sully ", " Oblivion ", " The Martian ", " Passengers " and " Start Trek Beyond ". Plus parts of " Everest " and " Deadpool ". They all look great. They only ones that look dark are " Arrival " and " Star Trek Beyond ' - both of which look dark on Blu Ray.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 05, 2017, 08:07:37 AM
...and if JVC had taken a quick lesson in "do count your chickens before they're hatched", like mr. Musk certainly must be the master of; they´d already introduce the DV update as a future option for the Z1... ;) Still, dynamic metadata will probably be available through regular (dynamic) HDR mastered movies too, question remains if HDMI 2.1 would be required in such case? It seems DV is able to deliver the metadata through HDMI 2.0a (18Gbps) though. Anyhow; new features will always appear and I am not saying people should wait it out - as one would certainly in such case wait forever - but as for current static HDR and projection I am really not a fan, obviously, but I´ll certainly give it a go on the Z1 just for the fun of it! :)

I wasn't a fan either, until this projector. Watch " Hacksaw Ridge " !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 05, 2017, 10:28:14 AM
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/dv-bd-201703284449.htm

Interesting. Not a title I'm interested in, and ironically, I'll bet most people will buy that movie in 3D - not 4K. But, if true, it's a start. I'll be interested to hear how well this actually works, when DV HDR support becomes widespread. Going to need a new AVR - again !  :-X
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on April 05, 2017, 10:48:56 AM
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/dv-bd-201703284449.htm

Ah, DV is already starting to roll out; let´s just hope JVC chooses to add DV to the Z1 / RS4500 - I mean - if LG and Sony is able to do so their TVs, JVC should have NO problem getting this update made out too provided it is possible to run via software and their processing is of sufficient capacity (...one would presume??)... Still, I´ll give HDR10 a go as well AVScraig, didn´t have time to do test it today, but metadata really should be far superior when light output is limited - provided again the mastering is of proper quality that is... :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on April 05, 2017, 06:05:44 PM
I would not hold my breath for Dolby Vision on any current projector. Right now, Dolby is not pursuing any home theater manufacturers. For this to work, it would have to be different than how this is done for flat panels. My guess is, a projector would have to have a sensor to read screen brightness and a way to get screen parameters into the system (screen width or area). Even then it will need a little more than that for those that use an A-lens.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 11, 2017, 10:51:57 AM
Ah, DV is already starting to roll out; let´s just hope JVC chooses to add DV to the Z1 / RS4500 - I mean - if LG and Sony is able to do so their TVs, JVC should have NO problem getting this update made out too provided it is possible to run via software and their processing is of sufficient capacity (...one would presume??)... Still, I´ll give HDR10 a go as well AVScraig, didn´t have time to do test it today, but metadata really should be far superior when light output is limited - provided again the mastering is of proper quality that is... :)

Did you get a chance to watch any UHD Blu Rays with the HDR preset yet? I had 4 friends over to watch " Sully " last night. One friend has been coming to my theater for quite some time, but hasn't watched a movie in my theater since I got the RS4500. What's fun about having an enclosed projector closet, is no one really knows what projector they are watching. he has seen quite a few movies on my previous RS600 and VW600. After the movie was over, he turned to me and said " that picture looked really sharp " !  ;D
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on April 15, 2017, 09:23:37 AM
Did you get a chance to watch any UHD Blu Rays with the HDR preset yet? I had 4 friends over to watch " Sully " last night. One friend has been coming to my theater for quite some time, but hasn't watched a movie in my theater since I got the RS4500. What's fun about having an enclosed projector closet, is no one really knows what projector they are watching. he has seen quite a few movies on my previous RS600 and VW600. After the movie was over, he turned to me and said " that picture looked really sharp " !  ;D

Have to do some more testing, as my first attempt was very troublesome... Wanted to do some Auro-3D native testing as well on our Datasat RS20i, so I threw Ghostbusters 2 HDR in the player. Terrible black crush, had to increase brightness by 10 points to somewhat compensate for the crush so totally off. Using a Panasonic UB900, just updated with the latest firmware. As for the Z1 I just left everything to default HDR mode. Might be some setting on the UB900 I have missed, I´ll have to try adjusting back to SDR convertion again to see if the black crush remains, but as far as I can recall this particular disc played fine before... So, I guess I need to do some more testing, but thus far I´m still not very impressed by the "plug-and-play" HDR overall system although it might not be the Z1 that is the only accountable party and also this might not apply to other movies, will do some more testing next week for sure! :)

AND - have to underline this as well, did see a number of reference standard blu-ray-clips as well to check the dimming after the firmware update and the unit really performs excellent. I do still see a BIT more pulses / instabilities on the Z1 than the Epson LS10K though, but I guess JVC might be able to do yet another minor fine tuning to get the dimming perfect... Still, overall sharpness, massive light output - and actually quite impressive black levels and also dynamics as well now provides excellent image quality even on the 13 feet wide screen currently being used (@0,8 gain UltraWeave V6). At home I have a Epson LS10K on my 11 feet screen and it´s really no comparison to the Z1 in sharpness, light output and overall performance. LS10K is certainly an OK machine though, but I have to say I prefer the JVC DLA-X5000 (RS420) on just about every aspect over the LS10K except for the laser light source... Suffice to say; the Z1 would have been perfect in my particular setting, but my current surroundings does not allow such a beast to be mounted so I guess my next "test candidate" will be the JVC DLA-X7500 (RS520) as soon as I get my hands on one... Still, the laser light is really appealing, so for people with the proper room (and funds... ;)) I´m quite sure this is one of the top picks at the moment!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on April 15, 2017, 08:55:43 PM
Have to do some more testing, as my first attempt was very troublesome... Wanted to do some Auro-3D native testing as well on our Datasat RS20i, so I threw Ghostbusters 2 HDR in the player. Terrible black crush, had to increase brightness by 10 points to somewhat compensate for the crush so totally off. Using a Panasonic UB900, just updated with the latest firmware. As for the Z1 I just left everything to default HDR mode. Might be some setting on the UB900 I have missed, I´ll have to try adjusting back to SDR convertion again to see if the black crush remains, but as far as I can recall this particular disc played fine before... So, I guess I need to do some more testing, but thus far I´m still not very impressed by the "plug-and-play" HDR overall system although it might not be the Z1 that is the only accountable party and also this might not apply to other movies, will do some more testing next week for sure! :)

AND - have to underline this as well, did see a number of reference standard blu-ray-clips as well to check the dimming after the firmware update and the unit really performs excellent. I do still see a BIT more pulses / instabilities on the Z1 than the Epson LS10K though, but I guess JVC might be able to do yet another minor fine tuning to get the dimming perfect... Still, overall sharpness, massive light output - and actually quite impressive black levels and also dynamics as well now provides excellent image quality even on the 13 feet wide screen currently being used (@0,8 gain UltraWeave V6). At home I have a Epson LS10K on my 11 feet screen and it´s really no comparison to the Z1 in sharpness, light output and overall performance. LS10K is certainly an OK machine though, but I have to say I prefer the JVC DLA-X5000 (RS420) on just about every aspect over the LS10K except for the laser light source... Suffice to say; the Z1 would have been perfect in my particular setting, but my current surroundings does not allow such a beast to be mounted so I guess my next "test candidate" will be the JVC DLA-X7500 (RS520) as soon as I get my hands on one... Still, the laser light is really appealing, so for people with the proper room (and funds... ;)) I´m quite sure this is one of the top picks at the moment!

I am very pleased with the performance, after the firmware update. Spectacular projector.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 16, 2017, 09:08:07 AM
Have to do some more testing, as my first attempt was very troublesome... Wanted to do some Auro-3D native testing as well on our Datasat RS20i, so I threw Ghostbusters 2 HDR in the player. Terrible black crush, had to increase brightness by 10 points to somewhat compensate for the crush so totally off. Using a Panasonic UB900, just updated with the latest firmware. As for the Z1 I just left everything to default HDR mode. Might be some setting on the UB900 I have missed, I´ll have to try adjusting back to SDR convertion again to see if the black crush remains, but as far as I can recall this particular disc played fine before... So, I guess I need to do some more testing, but thus far I´m still not very impressed by the "plug-and-play" HDR overall system although it might not be the Z1 that is the only accountable party and also this might not apply to other movies, will do some more testing next week for sure! :)

AND - have to underline this as well, did see a number of reference standard blu-ray-clips as well to check the dimming after the firmware update and the unit really performs excellent. I do still see a BIT more pulses / instabilities on the Z1 than the Epson LS10K though, but I guess JVC might be able to do yet another minor fine tuning to get the dimming perfect... Still, overall sharpness, massive light output - and actually quite impressive black levels and also dynamics as well now provides excellent image quality even on the 13 feet wide screen currently being used (@0,8 gain UltraWeave V6). At home I have a Epson LS10K on my 11 feet screen and it´s really no comparison to the Z1 in sharpness, light output and overall performance. LS10K is certainly an OK machine though, but I have to say I prefer the JVC DLA-X5000 (RS420) on just about every aspect over the LS10K except for the laser light source... Suffice to say; the Z1 would have been perfect in my particular setting, but my current surroundings does not allow such a beast to be mounted so I guess my next "test candidate" will be the JVC DLA-X7500 (RS520) as soon as I get my hands on one... Still, the laser light is really appealing, so for people with the proper room (and funds... ;)) I´m quite sure this is one of the top picks at the moment!

Are you using Kris Deering's settings for the HDR pre - set ?

" For HDR I use the HDR color profile despite not having quite as much saturation for red as BT2020. One thing I would suggest, take the dark level adjustment in the HDR gamma all the way to max (7). This will not hurt your black floor but it levels out the luminance better and gives HDR images a much better image without looking too dark or overly contrasty. For picture tone I raised it 1 click and I left bright level alone at 0. I think I am running mid laser with aperture fully open for HDR and the laser in mode 2. All standard controls are set to 0. "
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on April 16, 2017, 12:52:35 PM
Are you using Kris Deering's settings for the HDR pre - set ?

" For HDR I use the HDR color profile despite not having quite as much saturation for red as BT2020. One thing I would suggest, take the dark level adjustment in the HDR gamma all the way to max (7). This will not hurt your black floor but it levels out the luminance better and gives HDR images a much better image without looking too dark or overly contrasty. For picture tone I raised it 1 click and I left bright level alone at 0. I think I am running mid laser with aperture fully open for HDR and the laser in mode 2. All standard controls are set to 0. "

Thanks, will try! :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on April 16, 2017, 03:31:01 PM
is there anyone having a SMPTE 2084 gamma measurement of the different settings.? Or what is the target for your HDR adjustments.?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 17, 2017, 07:54:22 AM
Thanks, will try! :)

I watched " Arrival " again last night on 4K Blu-ray. Looked better than ever. I had just updated the firmware on my Panasonic UB900. Wonder if that had any changes picture wise ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on April 18, 2017, 05:48:42 AM
Tested X-Men: Apocalypse and I have to say (finally); WOW! Light output is still about the same as with regular SDR now, and no black crush as far as I could tell. Dynamics looks very good, for example in the factory at the start of the movie where sparks are far more dynamically reproduced than in regular SDR mode while still maintaining overall brightness. I´ll certainly try some more discs, but using the latest firmware on UB900 / Z1 seems to finally have unlocked the true HDR potential of this setup! :) I will also try the Kris Deering HDR tweak that was suggested here and see if this improves the performance any further, but again; on this particular movie at least, HDR mode introduces neither any significant loss of light output as far as I can tell and also retains details in blacks - and seems to work fine also on my 13 feet wide 0.8 gain AT screen - good riddance!! Also, I did not see the laser pulse once during my 20 minutes or so test...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 18, 2017, 08:10:33 AM
Tested X-Men: Apocalypse and I have to say (finally); WOW! Light output is still about the same as with regular SDR now, and no black crush as far as I could tell. Dynamics looks very good, for example in the factory at the start of the movie where sparks are far more dynamically reproduced than in regular SDR mode while still maintaining overall brightness. I´ll certainly try some more discs, but using the latest firmware on UB900 / Z1 seems to finally have unlocked the true HDR potential of this setup! :) I will also try the Kris Deering HDR tweak that was suggested here and see if this improves the performance any further, but again; on this particular movie at least, HDR mode introduces neither any significant loss of light output as far as I can tell and also retains details in blacks - and seems to work fine also on my 13 feet wide 0.8 gain AT screen - good riddance!! Also, I did not see the laser pulse once during my 20 minutes or so test...

Excellent! That's what Mike and I have been seeing. Now I need to find time to watch more 4K Blu-rays !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on April 18, 2017, 10:22:35 AM
Probably I should add that I adjusted the HDR mode to max light output on the UB900, a feature I do not believe was available until quite recently? Anyhow; auto HDR @ Z1 (RS4500) + max bright HDR mode @ UB900 really seems to be an excellent combo also for larger screen setups. I might not get all the "HDR dynamics" available, but there is certainly some added dynamics, but only at a very slight cost of light. Just like I "ordered", only thing that might be even better is Dolby Vision - but I guess for projectors and all variables accounted for, the DV would end up reducing the HDR-effect to just about the same level I´m using now anyhow, so why bother... ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 19, 2017, 08:29:36 AM
Probably I should add that I adjusted the HDR mode to max light output on the UB900, a feature I do not believe was available until quite recently? Anyhow; auto HDR @ Z1 (RS4500) + max bright HDR mode @ UB900 really seems to be an excellent combo also for larger screen setups. I might not get all the "HDR dynamics" available, but there is certainly some added dynamics, but only at a very slight cost of light. Just like I "ordered", only thing that might be even better is Dolby Vision - but I guess for projectors and all variables accounted for, the DV would end up reducing the HDR-effect to just about the same level I´m using now anyhow, so why bother... ;)

What setting are you using to do this ? If it's a new feature, I may have missed it.

Never mind - Zombie10K clarified it for me. Same slider ( in the menu anyway ) as " dynamic range conversion " ( when using SDR BT2020 ). Interesting - I need to play with this some more.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 20, 2017, 08:44:19 AM
Probably I should add that I adjusted the HDR mode to max light output on the UB900, a feature I do not believe was available until quite recently? Anyhow; auto HDR @ Z1 (RS4500) + max bright HDR mode @ UB900 really seems to be an excellent combo also for larger screen setups. I might not get all the "HDR dynamics" available, but there is certainly some added dynamics, but only at a very slight cost of light. Just like I "ordered", only thing that might be even better is Dolby Vision - but I guess for projectors and all variables accounted for, the DV would end up reducing the HDR-effect to just about the same level I´m using now anyhow, so why bother... ;)

I played around with this setting on the Panasonic UB900 a bit more last night. Used " Star Trek " on 4K BR - absolutely works great!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on April 20, 2017, 12:07:39 PM
Quote
Probably I should add that I adjusted the HDR mode to max light output on the UB900, a feature I do not believe was available until quite recently? Anyhow; auto HDR @ Z1 (RS4500) + max bright HDR mode @ UB900 really seems to be an excellent combo also for larger screen setups. I might not get all the "HDR dynamics" available, but there is certainly some added dynamics, but only at a very slight cost of light.

Be careful with this setting, putting it to max will clip a lot of highlights in a movie with has some very bright scenes.
I added two pictures with the HDR slider to 6 and then to max with is 12, you can see that almost all of the white details in the snow and sky are gone.
It can be certainly very helpful but should be used with a lot of care, in darker movies where there is not to much of highlights you can probably afford to go a bit higher.
Just put in the Spyder man disc and put the clipping pattern on with the code on the remote, when you adjust the HDR slider on the Pan. you can seer perfectly what you are clipping.
The UHD of Everest is a good test to do this, some very good scenes with high picture level to play around with the slider.

I must say that when playing around there is definitely a lot of benefit to get, in combination with the updated software on the Z1 I will not use the trip HDR metadata with the Fury integral anymore.

I did adjust the Black gamma on the Pana. with just one click, to get some extra detail in the blacks, the HDR slider is on 7 (what is actually already a bit high for this movie, 5 would be better) laser is on mid with max setting and auto dimming on 2.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 20, 2017, 01:08:45 PM
Be careful with this setting, putting it to max will clip a lot of highlights in a movie with has some very bright scenes.
I added two pictures with the HDR slider to 6 and then to max with is 12, you can see that almost all of the white details in the snow and sky are gone.
It can be certainly very helpful but should be used with a lot of care, in darker movies where there is not to much of highlights you can probably afford to go a bit higher.
Just put in the Spyder man disc and put the clipping pattern on with the code on the remote, when you adjust the HDR slider on the Pan. you can seer perfectly what you are clipping.
The UHD of Everest is a good test to do this, some very good scenes with high picture level to play around with the slider.

I must say that when playing around there is definitely a lot of benefit to get, in combination with the updated software on the Z1 I will not use the trip HDR metadata with the Fury integral anymore.

I did adjust the Black gamma on the Pana. with just one click, to get some extra detail in the blacks, the HDR slider is on 7 and laser is on mid with max setting and auto dimming on 2.

Everest is a great test disc - several snow scenes to watch to make sure that details in the glacier / snow scenes aren't being lost.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on April 20, 2017, 01:26:38 PM
Everest is a great test disc - several snow scenes to watch to make sure that details in the glacier / snow scenes aren't being lost.

It is, you can find some good scenes to play with the HDR slider and see how far you can go before things get worse instead of better :-)

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 20, 2017, 02:10:06 PM
It is, you can find some good scenes to play with the HDR slider and see how far you can go before things get worse instead of better :-)

I've got a top notch calibrator coming in a little over 2 weeks, so I will just play with this until he gets here, and then the two of us can drill down to the best settings to use !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lygren on April 21, 2017, 03:08:56 AM
Thanks for the heads up Jetsen, will try lower it to avoid clipping. I hope this new UB900-feature does not introduce issues in the greyscale-tracking which is clearly the case when reducing HDR-level on the Epson E-shift projectors for example... HDR is seemingly a rather tough beast to tame....! ;)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 21, 2017, 10:18:33 AM
Thanks for the heads up Jetsen, will try lower it to avoid clipping. I hope this new UB900-feature does not introduce issues in the greyscale-tracking which is clearly the case when reducing HDR-level on the Epson E-shift projectors for example... HDR is seemingly a rather tough beast to tame....! ;)

On the other hand, how does it look on your screen ?  :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on April 21, 2017, 10:29:07 AM
Thanks for the heads up Jetsen, will try lower it to avoid clipping. I hope this new UB900-feature does not introduce issues in the greyscale-tracking which is clearly the case when reducing HDR-level on the Epson E-shift projectors for example... HDR is seemingly a rather tough beast to tame....! ;)

I did not have te time to measure yet because I threw in about 8 movies to test a lot of different scenes in relation to the use of the new feature.
I must say overall I am very pleased with the results so far, i did however put on a grey scale ramp and moved the slider and I think there is some difference in white balance.
I will try to do some measurements tomorrow to see what and how things work out.
Alos exited about the news that HDR10+ is coming soon, Samsung told on the press conference that the 2016 models will get a firmware update to make them compatible. I do hope that the hardware in the Z1 is also capable of supporting HDR10+ via firmware update. I know that dynamic metadata in a projector is a lot more problematic than on a flat panel because it relates to the max light output of the devise but still, one can only hope :-)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on April 21, 2017, 01:57:54 PM
Are you guys feeding the projector SDR from the player letting it do the HDR to SDR convertion?
If so what SDR gamma are you running.?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 21, 2017, 02:04:45 PM
Are you guys feeding the projector SDR from the player letting it do the HDR to SDR convertion?
If so what SDR gamma are you running.?

No - 4K HDR. This projector is HDR capable. Watching 4K Blu-rays with a Panasonic UB900, using the projector's HDR pre-set mode. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on April 21, 2017, 02:14:13 PM
Are you guys feeding the projector SDR from the player letting it do the HDR to SDR convertion?
If so what SDR gamma are you running.?

If watching 4K with HDR, I do not convert it to SDR.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on April 21, 2017, 03:18:36 PM
Are you guys feeding the projector SDR from the player letting it do the HDR to SDR convertion?
If so what SDR gamma are you running.?

Also watching HDR with the Panasonic, with the new added dynamic range feature on the Panasonic mostly on +5, laser in mid and auto laser dimming mode on 2.
I like what I see so far, no complaints a little to much noise perhaps as the Z1 is right above my head and in mid laser it gets a bit louder.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on April 21, 2017, 04:13:21 PM
Also watching HDR with the Panasonic, with the new added dynamic range feature on the Panasonic mostly on +5, laser in mid and auto laser dimming mode on 2.
I like what I see so far, no complaints a little to much noise perhaps as the Z1 is right above my head and in mid laser it gets a bit louder.

Can you please snap a picture of the panasonic menu where you set the new dynamic range feature.

Have any of you trying to calibrate a lower gamma, and not touching the clipping poins, preserving the full level of information, just compressing it a bit by straightening out the gamma, wich ramps it out of black faster ?
Not adjusting in the player as it seems to always add clipping.

It looks to me like the SDR output of the Panasonic (HDR converted to SDR) will work much better if the projector is calibrated to around 2.0-2.2 SDR gamma, depending the movie, and not touching the convertion slider in the player.
I do it in a Lumagen radiance to manipulate the gamma curve, i wonder how that would work on the JVC.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 22, 2017, 10:30:35 AM
Can you please snap a picture of the panasonic menu where you set the new dynamic range feature.

Have any of you trying to calibrate a lower gamma, and not touching the clipping poins, preserving the full level of information, just compressing it a bit by straightening out the gamma, wich ramps it out of black faster ?
Not adjusting in the player as it seems to always add clipping.

It looks to me like the SDR output of the Panasonic (HDR converted to SDR) will work much better if the projector is calibrated to around 2.0-2.2 SDR gamma, depending the movie, and not touching the convertion slider in the player.
I do it in a Lumagen radiance to manipulate the gamma curve, i wonder how that would work on the JVC.

(http://hometheaterphotos.com/projector2/ub900.jpg)

That's the best I can do right now - but you will only see the slider on the actual on screen menu with a 4K HDR signal present if I'm not mistaken. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on April 22, 2017, 12:24:09 PM
So its actually the same thing as the HDR convertion adjustment slider, to compensate for missing light output in the display device by just adjusting the white clipping point/ contrast.?

I wonder why nobody can make a true gamma adjustment feature where they just adjust the gamma curve without messing up the clipping points, Lumagen do the same thing setting the gamma factor, it messes up both ends.

Would be interested to hear if anyone here have experience with calibrating the gamma curve in the projector instead, maintaining the full range of image information.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stanger89 on April 24, 2017, 06:43:14 AM
Can you please snap a picture of the panasonic menu where you set the new dynamic range feature.

Have any of you trying to calibrate a lower gamma, and not touching the clipping poins, preserving the full level of information, just compressing it a bit by straightening out the gamma, wich ramps it out of black faster ?
Not adjusting in the player as it seems to always add clipping.

It looks to me like the SDR output of the Panasonic (HDR converted to SDR) will work much better if the projector is calibrated to around 2.0-2.2 SDR gamma, depending the movie, and not touching the convertion slider in the player.
I do it in a Lumagen radiance to manipulate the gamma curve, i wonder how that would work on the JVC.

That's what all of use with RSX00's are doing with Arve's tool and custom "gammas".  There's a ton of info in the RS600 and V6 autocal threads in the other forum.  8)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 24, 2017, 12:55:18 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2XCR4Zy68k
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on April 25, 2017, 01:41:34 PM
Whats going on with the SMPTE pattern here, that looks all messed up, is that normal.?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 25, 2017, 03:16:27 PM
Whats going on with the SMPTE pattern here, that looks all messed up, is that normal.?

Don't know what they are doing or feeding it. Kris Deering thought the scaling was top notch.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on April 26, 2017, 08:16:31 AM
Whats going on with the SMPTE pattern here, that looks all messed up, is that normal.?

Pardon my ignorance, but what's messed up about it?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on April 26, 2017, 09:58:31 AM
Pardon my ignorance, but what's messed up about it?
The resolution section changes colors and distorted, might be some convergence scaling, or other kind of enhancement processing.

Ill guess someone here with the projector has tested it, and know if its normal.. Do you guys have a UHD SMPTE pattern as well.?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on April 26, 2017, 12:43:07 PM
The resolution section changes colors and distorted, might be some convergence scaling, or other kind of enhancement processing.

Ill guess someone here with the projector has tested it, and know if its normal.. Do you guys have a UHD SMPTE pattern as well.?

I can't recall that I have seen this kind of problems when testing it, i think there is an UHD SMPTE pattern in the 4K Muridio generator, i will try and test it again when I have the time, but I can't imagine that someone is feeding a Z1 with interlaced signals.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on April 26, 2017, 02:49:03 PM
I can't recall that I have seen this kind of problems when testing it, i think there is an UHD SMPTE pattern in the 4K Muridio generator, i will try and test it again when I have the time, but I can't imagine that someone is feeding a Z1 with interlaced signals.

The one shown in the video is the 1920 x 1080 pattern, so its nothing to do with interlaced signals, i guess it might be the upscaling messing it up, but if someone had a UHD SMPTE pattern it would be fun to see if its capable of resolving that one, and also find out whats going on with the upscaled pattern.

Is the Z1 panels aligned mecanically so they are converging perfect, or are they using a convergence adjustment that adds processing.?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on April 26, 2017, 02:57:47 PM
Or is it possible this is an artifact from the video itself. I didn't look at that pattern with the RS4500. I looked at others though and saw no issues. May have panel alignment on, or not in native for aspect. There are A LOT of settings that can have effects on fine resolution patterns. You just have to start from 0 and see how it goes.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on April 26, 2017, 11:08:23 PM
Or is it possible this is an artifact from the video itself. I didn't look at that pattern with the RS4500. I looked at others though and saw no issues. May have panel alignment on, or not in native for aspect. There are A LOT of settings that can have effects on fine resolution patterns. You just have to start from 0 and see how it goes.

Would be very interesting if someone here could do the tests, and document the results, and maybe include the croma resolution test as well, all at its optimal settings.

The video is to bad to truly show off whats wrong, but the visible color distortion is not a video introduced error, a good way to look at the SMPTE pattern is actually to defocus the camera so the resolution lines is no longer visual on the picture, and see if all 6 squares maintain the same light output and dont show any color shift.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ed weinman on April 27, 2017, 12:55:56 PM
...will there be a 4K JVC light bulb projector that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 27, 2017, 01:13:15 PM
...will there be a 4K JVC light bulb projector that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?...

That's the $ 10,000 question ( see what I did there  :) ) !

Probably - but the better question is what year, or even which decade ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ed weinman on April 27, 2017, 08:51:30 PM
That's the $ 10,000 question ( see what I did there  :) ) !

Probably - but the better question is what year, or even which decade ?

Craig,
...you know, I can't believe that a company such as JVC would put on the market
a 4K projector that's almost out of financial reach for many.  I would think that
they would realize that, if they want to make a go for 4K, that it should be made
available to a larger purchasing population at a price that doesn't require taking
out a second mortgage.

...but I can't say that I'm unhappy with the e-shift JVC that I have combined with
the OPPO 205...I guess, as you point out, time will tell.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 27, 2017, 10:36:24 PM
Craig,
...you know, I can't believe that a company such as JVC would put on the market
a 4K projector that's almost out of financial reach for many.  I would think that
they would realize that, if they want to make a go for 4K, that it should be made
available to a larger purchasing population at a price that doesn't require taking
out a second mortgage.

...but I can't say that I'm unhappy with the e-shift JVC that I have combined with
the OPPO 205...I guess, as you point out, time will tell.

There are only four native 4K projectors available - other than DLP. The Sony VW365 ( $8K - no iris, not so good black levels ), the VW675 ( $15K ), the JVC RS4500 ( $ 35K ) and the Sony VW5000 ( $ 60K ). Sony has a new 4K laser projector coming - maybe $25K, maybe $30K . Digital Projection has some native 4K 3 chip DLP projectors - that run up to $ 150K. Not a lot out there native 4K wise at any price. Add laser and there are even fewer. Frankly, the RS4500 is a bargain compared to the Sim Lumis I used to have ( also $35K ).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on April 28, 2017, 07:01:06 AM
Craig,
...you know, I can't believe that a company such as JVC would put on the market
a 4K projector that's almost out of financial reach for many.  I would think that
they would realize that, if they want to make a go for 4K, that it should be made
available to a larger purchasing population at a price that doesn't require taking
out a second mortgage.

...but I can't say that I'm unhappy with the e-shift JVC that I have combined with
the OPPO 205...I guess, as you point out, time will tell.

Sony has a native 4K laser projector for 60K. While the JVC is not as bright, it seems like a bargain when compared that way. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on April 28, 2017, 08:53:22 AM
Frankly, the RS4500 is a bargain compared to the Sim Lumis I used to have ( also $35K ).

Just curious: how is the RS4500 a bargain when the price is the same?  Because you're getting 4k for the same price that 1080 costed back then?  In other words, the Lumis was SOTA at the time and the RS4500 is SOTA now. 

Slightly off topic, is there any aspect of performance of the RS4500 that isn't as good as your Lumis was? e.g. ANSI?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 28, 2017, 09:13:34 AM
Just curious: how is the RS4500 a bargain when the price is the same?  Because you're getting 4k for the same price that 1080 costed back then?  In other words, the Lumis was SOTA at the time and the RS4500 is SOTA now

Slightly off topic, is there any aspect of performance of the RS4500 that isn't as good as your Lumis was? e.g. ANSI?

Correct - state of the art is a good way to put it. It's a bargain considering the Lumis used $ 950.00 lamps, and laser is much more stable - picture wise and brightness wise.

I'm not sure exactly how ANSI would compare - I'll discuss that with Jeff Meier of Accucal when he's here to calibrate it in a week or so.

I don't find anything lacking compared to the Lumis. In fact, the RS4500 is brighter and has far more flexibility set up wise. And with 4K and HDR, it's another level above the Lumis picture wise too.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: gregory whathifi France on April 30, 2017, 08:08:36 AM
Hi everybody :)

I have just put online the first french review about the DLA-Z1 :) Great picture but IMHO not better than the JVC DLA-X9500 under 3 meters widescreen. You might find some pictures comparaison in the review with the Sony VPL-VW550ES, the BenQ W11000 and of course the JVC DLA-X9500.

http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/2017/04/30/test-jvc-dla-z1/

Google translation :

https://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projection-homecinema.fr%2F2017%2F04%2F30%2Ftest-jvc-dla-z1%2F&edit-text=
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on April 30, 2017, 01:02:49 PM
I just went true the review, and wondered why the screenshots was so full of edge ringing and artifacts?
Its not lack of image resolution on the shots, so is the images processed to look that bad, or is it actually just capturing whats on screen.?

I snapped a few shots of my own projector to compare, from the Blu Ray Oblivion, 1080P on a CRT projector, and even been trying adding massive Darbee (70%) and also some edge and detail enhancement, without beeing able to reproduce the amount of distortion shown on the JVC Z1 screenshots..

Would be interesting if someone else would take a shot at that Oblivion scene from a Z1.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on April 30, 2017, 01:30:42 PM
Might be easier to see it like this..

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on April 30, 2017, 03:23:20 PM
I just went true the review, and wondered why the screenshots was so full of edge ringing and artifacts?
Its not lack of image resolution on the shots, so is the images processed to look that bad, or is it actually just capturing whats on screen.?

I snapped a few shots of my own projector to compare, from the Blu Ray Oblivion, 1080P on a CRT projector, and even been trying adding massive Darbee (70%) and also some edge and detail enhancement, without beeing able to reproduce the amount of distortion shown on the JVC Z1 screenshots..

Would be interesting if someone else would take a shot at that Oblivion scene from a Z1.

It's hard to see a difference on my computer between those shots, but I see no ringing / edge enhancement on my RS4500 / Z1. Of course the settings on the source device, and any number of things that can happen to screen shot between the camera and you can also effect them. I put no weight into screen shots for that very reason - they are " for entertainment purposes only ". After all, I have a laptop - not a calibrated display here.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on April 30, 2017, 04:28:09 PM
It's hard to see a difference on my computer between those shots, but I see no ringing / edge enhancement on my RS4500 / Z1. Of course the settings on the source device, and any number of things that can happen to screen shot between the camera and you can also effect them. I put no weight into screen shots for that very reason - they are " for entertainment purposes only ". After all, I have a laptop - not a calibrated display here.

Its pretty hard to find a camera that ad as much distortion as is seen on the Z1 screenshots, unless you take a cell phone, normaly you can use screenshots to see artifacts and ringing, no problem, just dont look for color / calibration, its amasing how well a camera picks up the distortion on screen..

But the screenshots in the linked review is sooo bad that its hard to see why they are addet, they are confusing more than helping, They just as well use a SD projector for comparison, as none of the pics are capable of showing high resolution qualities.

Thats why it would be more interesting to see someone else post a decent screenshot, showing off the detail level on a Z1, and prove its not as noisy and distorted as the review make it look like.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 01, 2017, 07:50:29 AM
Its pretty hard to find a camera that ad as much distortion as is seen on the Z1 screenshots, unless you take a cell phone, normaly you can use screenshots to see artifacts and ringing, no problem, just dont look for color / calibration, its amasing how well a camera picks up the distortion on screen..

But the screenshots in the linked review is sooo bad that its hard to see why they are addet, they are confusing more than helping, They just as well use a SD projector for comparison, as none of the pics are capable of showing high resolution qualities.

Thats why it would be more interesting to see someone else post a decent screenshot, showing off the detail level on a Z1, and prove its not as noisy and distorted as the review make it look like.

Your close up picture on the right looks particularly bad to me - very noisy !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 01, 2017, 08:04:48 AM
Hi everybody :)

I have just put online the first french review about the DLA-Z1 :) Great picture but IMHO not better than the JVC DLA-X9500 under 3 meters widescreen. You might find some pictures comparaison in the review with the Sony VPL-VW550ES, the BenQ W11000 and of course the JVC DLA-X9500.

http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/2017/04/30/test-jvc-dla-z1/

Google translation :

https://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projection-homecinema.fr%2F2017%2F04%2F30%2Ftest-jvc-dla-z1%2F&edit-text=

Thank you for sharing the review, I really enjoyed it.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 01, 2017, 08:41:17 AM
I just went true the review, and wondered why the screenshots was so full of edge ringing and artifacts?
Its not lack of image resolution on the shots, so is the images processed to look that bad, or is it actually just capturing whats on screen.?

I snapped a few shots of my own projector to compare, from the Blu Ray Oblivion, 1080P on a CRT projector, and even been trying adding massive Darbee (70%) and also some edge and detail enhancement, without beeing able to reproduce the amount of distortion shown on the JVC Z1 screenshots..

Would be interesting if someone else would take a shot at that Oblivion scene from a Z1.

This post addresses these screen shots - http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2514257-jvc-4k-native-laser-projector-confirm-152.html#post52644609
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 01, 2017, 09:32:54 AM
Does anyone know if the RS4500/Z1 can handle the vertical stretch so that an anamorphic lens can be used?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on May 01, 2017, 02:17:49 PM
This post addresses these screen shots - http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2514257-jvc-4k-native-laser-projector-confirm-152.html#post52644609

So would be nice if some of you guys would snap a few fast pics of your setup of the Z1, the more shots the better, it gives the rest of us a idea how it really looks.. I think its worth much more than all the subjective opinions, specially if you include some good testpattern shots, like croma multiburst, SMPTE pattern, zone plate and so on.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 01, 2017, 02:21:40 PM
That would require good camera equipment, which I'm lacking. An iPhone 4 or the cheapest Canon point n shoot probably won't add anything useful.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on May 01, 2017, 03:16:20 PM
That would require good camera equipment, which I'm lacking. An iPhone 4 or the cheapest Canon point n shoot probably won't add anything useful.

Im sure some or one of you guys here that have a Z1 have a decent DSLR camera. even the point and shoot camera might do quite a lot better than the shots posted, and the cell phone will do fine for a SMPTE pattern shot, as it will have no problem showing if there is color shift/ distortion on the 1:1 vertical/ horizontal resolution, wich is quite normal on non DLP projectors.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 01, 2017, 07:12:12 PM
I just went true the review, and wondered why the screenshots was so full of edge ringing and artifacts?
Its not lack of image resolution on the shots, so is the images processed to look that bad, or is it actually just capturing whats on screen.?

I snapped a few shots of my own projector to compare, from the Blu Ray Oblivion, 1080P on a CRT projector, and even been trying adding massive Darbee (70%) and also some edge and detail enhancement, without beeing able to reproduce the amount of distortion shown on the JVC Z1 screenshots..

Would be interesting if someone else would take a shot at that Oblivion scene from a Z1.

Javs over on AVS talked about the pictures and gave some pointers on how to improve the captured images.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 01, 2017, 07:13:57 PM
Im sure some or one of you guys here that have a Z1 have a decent DSLR camera. even the point and shoot camera might do quite a lot better than the shots posted, and the cell phone will do fine for a SMPTE pattern shot, as it will have no problem showing if there is color shift/ distortion on the 1:1 vertical/ horizontal resolution, wich is quite normal on non DLP projectors.

In one of the RS4500 thread on AVS, there is the same 4K pattern, shot with an iphone 7 and it even looks better than the shot in the review. Here is a link.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2514257-jvc-4k-native-laser-projector-confirm-153.html#post52653161
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on May 01, 2017, 10:30:08 PM
In one of the RS4500 thread on AVS, there is the same 4K pattern, shot with an iphone 7 and it even looks better than the shot in the review. Here is a link.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2514257-jvc-4k-native-laser-projector-confirm-153.html#post52653161
That shows the heavy color shift on the 1:1 horizontal lines like in the video of the SMPTE pattern, anyway it will be interesting to see somebody step up the game and fully document how the Z1 handle with different settings and modes, and include both testpatterns and movie content, whats been represented so far only shows that the Z1 has some problems resolving a UHD source signal.

Black text on a bright background as posted is also a very good at showing off enhancement processing distortion, if its possible to eliminate it, or if JVC has gone the SONY way.

Thats easy snapped  with a cell phone, as shown on AVS.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 02, 2017, 05:29:06 AM
I believe earlier in this thread, Kris posted that the RS4500 fully resolved 4K test patterns and that the RS4500 fully resolved 1080P test patterns. He said that the Sony 4K units, had problems fully resolving the 1080P test patterns.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 02, 2017, 05:45:08 AM
Does anyone know if the RS4500/Z1 can handle the vertical stretch so that an anamorphic lens can be used?

Anyone?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on May 02, 2017, 06:34:44 AM
I believe earlier in this thread, Kris posted that the RS4500 fully resolved 4K test patterns and that the RS4500 fully resolved 1080P test patterns. He said that the Sony 4K units, had problems fully resolving the 1080P test patterns.

Different people define resolve in different ways.. If the green color distortion on the 1:1 horizontal line pattern is a limitation in the panels, or processing, ill say it cant fully resolve UHD, and ill also say that it will be hard to find a projector, or display that actually resolve the source material 100%, ill even claim that its has never been made..

Would be interesting to see where this new piece of toy is on the resolution scale.

If there is someone with a Z1, a camera and some good testpatterns + movies, it would be interesting for some of us mortals to get some insight into the capabilities of the latest tech.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 02, 2017, 02:56:16 PM
Anyone?

Yes, I use an A-lens with my RS4500.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 02, 2017, 02:57:51 PM
Different people define resolve in different ways.. If the green color distortion on the 1:1 horizontal line pattern is a limitation in the panels, or processing, ill say it cant fully resolve UHD, and ill also say that it will be hard to find a projector, or display that actually resolve the source material 100%, ill even claim that its has never been made..

Would be interesting to see where this new piece of toy is on the resolution scale.

If there is someone with a Z1, a camera and some good testpatterns + movies, it would be interesting for some of us mortals to get some insight into the capabilities of the latest tech.

I do not have any 4K test patterns. Only 4K source device I have is an Oppo 203.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on May 02, 2017, 03:16:57 PM
I do not have any 4K test patterns. Only 4K source device I have is an Oppo 203.

Im sure you can find some good UHD test patterns online and run them from a USB stick in the OPPO.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2463698-r-masciola-s-hdr-10-uhd-test-patterns.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlLFOrWvY_M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlLFOrWvY_M&index=2&list=PLFZHfgcAmenvO9qx7YI1Veb0gEPEfZVUI#t=14.414026
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 04, 2017, 09:05:14 AM
Im sure you can find some good UHD test patterns online and run them from a USB stick in the OPPO.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2463698-r-masciola-s-hdr-10-uhd-test-patterns.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlLFOrWvY_M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlLFOrWvY_M&index=2&list=PLFZHfgcAmenvO9qx7YI1Veb0gEPEfZVUI#t=14.414026

Youtube already has compression, so that would not be a good option.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 04, 2017, 09:56:44 AM
I just went true the review, and wondered why the screenshots was so full of edge ringing and artifacts?
Its not lack of image resolution on the shots, so is the images processed to look that bad, or is it actually just capturing whats on screen.?

I snapped a few shots of my own projector to compare, from the Blu Ray Oblivion, 1080P on a CRT projector, and even been trying adding massive Darbee (70%) and also some edge and detail enhancement, without beeing able to reproduce the amount of distortion shown on the JVC Z1 screenshots..

Would be interesting if someone else would take a shot at that Oblivion scene from a Z1.

It's been pointed out that the 4K Blu-ray of Oblivion has a lot of issues - no one should use that as a test / demo disc to begin with. that just occurred to me . There are better 4K discs for screen shots. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on May 05, 2017, 06:58:04 PM
Different people define resolve in different ways.. If the green color distortion on the 1:1 horizontal line pattern is a limitation in the panels, or processing, ill say it cant fully resolve UHD, and ill also say that it will be hard to find a projector, or display that actually resolve the source material 100%, ill even claim that its has never been made..

Would be interesting to see where this new piece of toy is on the resolution scale.

If there is someone with a Z1, a camera and some good testpatterns + movies, it would be interesting for some of us mortals to get some insight into the capabilities of the latest tech.

Thats not distortion, and a limitation in the panels, where are you getting this information?

That's classic panel convergence issue, which I am sure is easy fixed with a quick panel alignment. I know for a fact this image was photographed when that projector was essentially about 2 hours old, and I am betting it has not been on for very long when that image was taken.

I have seen it before on my '1080p' projectors, and I have removed it before only with a couple clicks in alignment.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on May 06, 2017, 07:17:13 AM
Thats not distortion, and a limitation in the panels, where are you getting this information?

That's classic panel convergence issue, which I am sure is easy fixed with a quick panel alignment. I know for a fact this image was photographed when that projector was essentially about 2 hours old, and I am betting it has not been on for very long when that image was taken.

I have seen it before on my '1080p' projectors, and I have removed it before only with a couple clicks in alignment.

And thats exactely why i requested a screenshot from someone else with a final setup.. My experience is that the convergence adjustment messes up the resolution, as its actually a warp feature/ scaling, and not a panel alignment, and any scaling have a negative effect on resolution, and the SMPTE pattern is designed in a way that no panel alignment error will make a visible color shift when you step back to a distance where you can not define/ focus the resolution, as its a ½ black ½ white pattern area in 3 different resolutions in both horizontal and vertical.. so if you snap a pic of that pattern out of focus all 6 resolution squares should represent the same gray/ identical light output, with no color polution/ shift.

If you cant do that you cant resolve the resolution, wich is quite normal for all other than DLP projectors.

Try out the pattern addet here, its a 1080P pattern designed to show bandwidth/ resolution tracking to gain/ light output. So a bit more advanced resolution test pattern, and dont worry to picture the lines or the resolution, just snap a shot out of focus and look if all pattern groups is uniform, or whatever happens.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 06, 2017, 01:53:47 PM
I just got my RS4500.  I am coming from a Sim2 C3X1080. 

When I first turned it on it was like a jet engine in my room.  Took me quite a while to find out how to change the laser power and it was a small consolation to find it was on high.  I'm going to have to consider a hush box of some sort.  On low power the fan noise is similar to my Sim2 on med/high lamp.  I was not expecting this much noise considering my Sim2  was much louder than any JVC I've ever experienced.

I have no issues with contrast.  I was fighting with a lot of black crush but I adopted Kris Deering's settings (which involved going up from Low laser to Med laser and employing the manual iris aperture and it's much better.

What I do have an issue with is how smeared the image looks (only watched 1080 so far).  Faces are like magazine covers where photos have been airbrushed.  Nobody has wrinkles or facial detail - at least not compared to what I was used to.  I guess this is the low ANSI contrast of LCOS.  It reminds me of playing DVDs (standard definition) on my Sim2.  In that situation there simply wasn't the resolution on the disc, but in this case with 1080 the resolution is just not making it to the screen (or it's being upscaled poorly, but I don't think so).  Again, tradeoffs of different technologies I presume.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 06, 2017, 03:39:39 PM
I just got my RS4500.  I am coming from a Sim2 C3X1080. 

When I first turned it on it was like a jet engine in my room.  Took me quite a while to find out how to change the laser power and it was a small consolation to find it was on high.  I'm going to have to consider a hush box of some sort.  On low power the fan noise is similar to my Sim2 on med/high lamp.  I was not expecting this much noise considering my Sim2  was much louder than any JVC I've ever experienced.

I have no issues with contrast.  I was fighting with a lot of black crush but I adopted Kris Deering's settings (which involved going up from Low laser to Med laser and employing the manual iris aperture and it's much better.

What I do have an issue with is how smeared the image looks (only watched 1080 so far).  Faces are like magazine covers where photos have been airbrushed.  Nobody has wrinkles or facial detail - at least not compared to what I was used to.  I guess this is the low ANSI contrast of LCOS.  It reminds me of playing DVDs (standard definition) on my Sim2.  In that situation there simply wasn't the resolution on the disc, but in this case with 1080 the resolution is just not making it to the screen (or it's being upscaled poorly, but I don't think so).  Again, tradeoffs of different technologies I presume.

Put " Fury " on, on Blu-ray. It should look plenty sharp. If it doesn't, something is amiss in your system. What source device ? I went from Sim Lumis Host and a Sony VW600, to an RS600 and the VW600, to the RS4500. No loss in sharpness, but the better the projector, the better it shows source limitations.

If " Passengers " on 4K UHD Blu Ray doesn't look sharp, something's wrong. That's the other thing - the more 4K I watch, the worse once stellar looking Blu-rays start to look in comparison. Same as when we went from DVD's to BR's !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on May 06, 2017, 05:08:52 PM
And thats exactely why i requested a screenshot from someone else with a final setup.. My experience is that the convergence adjustment messes up the resolution, as its actually a warp feature/ scaling, and not a panel alignment, and any scaling have a negative effect on resolution, and the SMPTE pattern is designed in a way that no panel alignment error will make a visible color shift when you step back to a distance where you can not define/ focus the resolution, as its a ½ black ½ white pattern area in 3 different resolutions in both horizontal and vertical.. so if you snap a pic of that pattern out of focus all 6 resolution squares should represent the same gray/ identical light output, with no color polution/ shift.

If you cant do that you cant resolve the resolution, wich is quite normal for all other than DLP projectors.

Try out the pattern addet here, its a 1080P pattern designed to show bandwidth/ resolution tracking to gain/ light output. So a bit more advanced resolution test pattern, and dont worry to picture the lines or the resolution, just snap a shot out of focus and look if all pattern groups is uniform, or whatever happens.

Only if you do 1/16th pixel increments, if you stick to full pixel you are good, I have tested it with a similar pattern and not seen any errors with my exactly 1 pixel panel alignment adjustment on my JVC.

I don't own a Z1 otherwise I would show you the screen-shot's.

I use this pattern on my JVC to check such things, lower left and upper right have single pixel lines:

(http://i.imgur.com/BFUCNTK.png)

Also these are single pixel grids, thanks for your shot in any case, I will use that too.

(http://i.imgur.com/IB90gGF.png)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on May 07, 2017, 12:36:37 AM
why are the pattern files above 1920x1090, and not 1080?

I linked to some UHD patterns from youtube, with 1:1 horizontal and vertival resolutions, would be interesting to see how they look on the Z1
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on May 07, 2017, 06:16:27 PM
why are the pattern files above 1920x1090, and not 1080?

I linked to some UHD patterns from youtube, with 1:1 horizontal and vertival resolutions, would be interesting to see how they look on the Z1

They are screenshots, I am just sending you VLC Screengrabs. The patterns are from the AVS709 suite, they are easy to find.

The original files are right, looks like you just found a bug in VLC's screen-shot tool I wasnt aware of. Pretty odd.

This is the 4K pattern which WAS checked by multiple people on the Z1. Including in the shot which you saw distortion on shot on the iphone, which I still think was due to cold panels.

Its from the Masciola suite, there is no need to use other patterns, it has 1 pixel width lines on it.

(http://i.imgur.com/oti8XJj.png)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on May 08, 2017, 08:43:15 AM
They are screenshots, I am just sending you VLC Screengrabs. The patterns are from the AVS709 suite, they are easy to find.

The original files are right, looks like you just found a bug in VLC's screen-shot tool I wasnt aware of. Pretty odd.

This is the 4K pattern which WAS checked by multiple people on the Z1. Including in the shot which you saw distortion on shot on the iphone, which I still think was due to cold panels.

Its from the Masciola suite, there is no need to use other patterns, it has 1 pixel width lines on it.

(http://i.imgur.com/oti8XJj.png)

Nice pattern, do you know of a UHD croma multiburst pattern..?

Now we just need someone with a Z1 and a camera, that can take a picture that ilustrates whats going on, confirm the distortion or show its a setup error, so we dont need to guess and speculate.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 08, 2017, 09:11:31 AM
I might be able to take a good photo.  Can you point me to where I can get the pattern?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 09, 2017, 08:19:38 AM
Just put my CC authorization in for one of these for my theater. I just recently purchased a 140" ST100 scope screen so the added resolution and brightness pushed me to upgrade to this from my RS620. Should have it next week sometime if all goes well. I can post some pics and follow up on some measurements with the new firmware when it comes in.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on May 09, 2017, 10:36:06 AM
I might be able to take a good photo.  Can you point me to where I can get the pattern?


Just download some of the UHD patterns posted here and save them on a USB stick if you have a player that will work with that.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 09, 2017, 10:57:10 AM
Just download some of the UHD patterns posted here and save them on a USB stick if you have a player that will work with that.

Ahh, OK, didn't realize they were 3840x2160.  Thanks, I've been trying to find test patterns so this will be very helpful.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on May 09, 2017, 01:46:33 PM
Ahh, OK, didn't realize they were 3840x2160.  Thanks, I've been trying to find test patterns so this will be very helpful.

Some are 1080P others are 2160P patterns, when you download them you can always confirm looking in the file info.. I posted some youtube links, there you can stream some UHD patterns.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 16, 2017, 08:52:16 AM
I've got some screen shots here - https://discuss.avscience.com/?topic=292.new#new
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on May 16, 2017, 10:14:40 AM
I've got some screen shots here - https://discuss.avscience.com/?topic=292.new#new

Would you be able to download or run some of the UHD patterns from youtube and snap a shot of those?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 16, 2017, 10:29:28 AM
Would you be able to download or run some of the UHD patterns from youtube and snap a shot of those?

I'm waiting for some thumb drives to show up from Amazon, then I'll download some 4K test patterns.  :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 17, 2017, 05:36:15 AM
For those near Rochester NY, If you want to see the RS4500 in action along with a Triad Silver sound system in a treated room, come to our store. The room is pretty much finished, except for Atmos speakers. Still waiting on Triad to start shipping the Silver/9 RotaSat Atmos speakers. In the 2nd room (media room), you can view an RS420 or RS400.

The building construction is still going on, but our area is pretty much complete.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 17, 2017, 07:36:19 AM
For those near Rochester NY, If you want to see the RS4500 in action along with a Triad Silver sound system in a treated room, come to our store. The room is pretty much finished, except for Atmos speakers. Still waiting on Triad to start shipping the Silver/9 RotaSat Atmos speakers. In the 2nd room (media room), you can view an RS420 or RS400.

The building construction is still going on, but our area is pretty much complete.

Who calibrated it? :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 17, 2017, 08:02:00 AM
I'm picking up my new RS4500 tomorrow and hope to be installing this weekend (as long as the mount shows up in time!). I will post some measurements to see if they still stack up to the ones I took for the review.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 17, 2017, 08:06:02 AM
I'm picking up my new RS4500 tomorrow and hope to be installing this weekend (as long as the mount shows up in time!). I will post some measurements to see if they still stack up to the ones I took for the review.

Excellent - you must be so excited!

I'm still trying to get used to mine (coming from 3 chip DLP) and looking forward to seeing what I think after having it calibrated this coming Monday.

I'm also trying to decide whether to use my ISCO III or zoom.  Anyone have any thoughts on that?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 17, 2017, 08:26:54 AM
Haven't used an anamorphic lens, so no experience to draw from there. Mike is using an A-lens with his though.

Just got a UPS email saying the mount shows up tomorrow, so definitely on track to install this weekend!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 17, 2017, 09:14:49 AM
Excellent - you must be so excited!

I'm still trying to get used to mine (coming from 3 chip DLP) and looking forward to seeing what I think after having it calibrated this coming Monday.

I'm also trying to decide whether to use my ISCO III or zoom.  Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I zoom, but I've done the same with my Sim Lumis Host, Sony VW600 and RS600 too.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on May 18, 2017, 01:07:04 AM
Zoom here too.  The Z1 is very slow to zoom, but seems more accurate than my Sony 1000 was.

I use laser mode/iris to brightness balance both zoom modes for consistent presentation.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 18, 2017, 07:13:45 AM
Who calibrated it? :)

No one yet. Just running settings from Kris Deering.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 18, 2017, 08:55:23 AM
Zoom here too.  The Z1 is very slow to zoom, but seems more accurate than my Sony 1000 was.

I use laser mode/iris to brightness balance both zoom modes for consistent presentation.

Glad to hear you're doing separate calibrations, a must for this to work properly. The zoom memory for the Z1/4500 is definitely slower than the RS620 I'm using now. It only takes a couple seconds to adjust. I'm using a Lumagen Pro in my setup so I rarely have to use the memories as I just use the aspect ratio control in the Lumagen most of the time. But if I know I'm gonna watch a whole film that is 1.78:1 I will change the zoom to try and eliminate the scaling (though it is so good in the Lumagen I don't think most would even notice the difference!).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 18, 2017, 12:58:46 PM
Our demo rooms are ready for viewing. :) Here is a picture of the screen in one of the rooms. Projector is RS4500. Our V6 fabric for the screen, Triad Silver speakers and SVS subs. Also picture of the RS4500.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 18, 2017, 01:17:41 PM
Very nice! Love the 'circuit board' wall treatments!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on May 19, 2017, 01:26:15 AM
Glad to hear you're doing separate calibrations, a must for this to work properly.

Yup.  Also using seperate 3D LUTs for 1.78 image and 2.35 image to compensate for changes caused by MID/HIGH laser and iris.  To be honest, you'd be hard pushed to see the differences but the differences can be measured, so they are there.  I could make life a lot easier and just use one LUT but I'm kind of nerdy about perfection! :D

And will probably set up two more LUTs for HDR once the Lumagen Pro HDR Intensity Mapping update arrives...

Quote
I'm using a Lumagen Pro in my setup so I rarely have to use the memories as I just use the aspect ratio control in the Lumagen most of the time. But if I know I'm gonna watch a whole film that is 1.78:1 I will change the zoom to try and eliminate the scaling (though it is so good in the Lumagen I don't think most would even notice the difference!).

Also use the Pro, but as I tend to only watch one movie at a time I always zoom to the required aspect.  I had tinkered with changing aspect via the Pro but was always aware of aliasing on diagonals after shrinking.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 19, 2017, 07:20:29 AM
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a LUT?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on May 19, 2017, 10:56:41 AM
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a LUT?

A LUT is a data Look-Up-Table...  used to calibrate displays.

http://calman.spectracal.com/creating-3d-luts.html
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 19, 2017, 11:18:15 AM
New RS4500 review: https://www.whathifi.com/jvc/dla-z1/review (https://www.whathifi.com/jvc/dla-z1/review)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 19, 2017, 03:11:09 PM
Very nice! Love the 'circuit board' wall treatments!

It is a Diffusion plate in front of an absorption panel. Made by GIK Acoustics.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/product-category/alpha-series/ (http://www.gikacoustics.com/product-category/alpha-series/)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Woof Woof on May 19, 2017, 05:09:14 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a LUT?

I am guessing Look Up Table
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 20, 2017, 09:51:48 AM
So, Kris, did you get the projector and mount?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 21, 2017, 06:09:06 AM
Last night I watched the UHD version of Underworld (guilty pleasure  :D).  I was in HDR mode, mid laser and when zoomed in I had to pull the iris out to 0.  I also used mode 2 of the DI and since the movie remained dark it worked really well. 

The image was spectacular.  Great detail, fine grain, I was VERY impressed.  On the bluray.com forums there weren't many people citing the UHD as a big upgrade over the regular bluray but the RS4500 really handled this well, much better than I expected.  I couldn't image how the image could be better.

Looking forward to my calibration tomorrow.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: ozhdht on May 21, 2017, 08:34:37 PM
So, Kris, did you get the projector and mount?

He mentioned on the AVSforum thread that he put his back out a bit when he was unloading the 4500 with his wife. He's hoping to get it up soon as he's up to it.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 22, 2017, 04:30:00 AM
He mentioned on the AVSforum thread that he put his back out a bit when he was unloading the 4500 with his wife. He's hoping to get it up soon as he's up to it.

Thanks. I missed that because I was following the OTHER RS4500 thread over there (there are 2!).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 22, 2017, 06:54:21 AM
I got the 4500 up on Saturday. Have had a long weekend due to the back issues, which are slowly getting better. I'm seeing some weird results with the new dynamic laser implementation. If anyone here on the forum can help, I'd like them to look at two different scenes for me. Using the Blu-ray's of Star Wars The Force Awakens and Oblivion, send 1080p to the 4500 (not scaled to 4K). For Star Wars watch the opening sequence after the title crawl with the ship's shadow covering the planet and the small ships appearing from behind it. How does the dynamic laser do with this scene in your setup? For Oblivion, how does it do with the opening credits that are right after the Universal logo and before the flashback (there are only a few)? Any feedback on these would be appreciated.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 22, 2017, 07:15:24 AM
Since I do not have those movies, I will ask Craig to look at Oblivion. He has that one.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 22, 2017, 07:18:27 AM
For Star Wars watch the opening sequence after the title crawl with the ship's shadow covering the planet and the small ships appearing from behind it. How does the dynamic laser do with this scene in your setup?

Here's what I noticed with Star Wars:

Laser mid, Dynamic iris mode 2.

1) As the final title crawl recesses the entire screen dims down in 2 discrete steps.
2) As the large ship engulfs the planet, the planet itself (and I assume the entire screen) dims down dramatically and fades to black.

With Dynamic Iris off:

1) the screen doesn't dim when the final titles are in the distance
2) Before the planet is in the scene, I see stars, then the camera pans down to reveal the planet (with dynamic iris it was a black screen!).   When large ship flys by the planet, the planet does not dim.... BUT the scene does NOT fade to black and I continue to see the large ship fly by as well as the smaller ones 'turn'.

Wow, this is really something.  It's like the dynamic iris completely closed the lens.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 22, 2017, 07:31:24 AM
For Oblivion, how does it do with the opening credits that are right after the Universal logo and before the flashback (there are only a few)?

I first watched with Dynamic mode 2 and saw the first title appear faintly, then the 2nd title appear, disappear and re-appear again.

With Dynamic mode OFF, I could see that the titles 'wipe' in from left to right and the 2nd title doesn't disappear & reappear again.

Is this what you're seeing?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 22, 2017, 07:47:05 AM
I got the 4500 up on Saturday. Have had a long weekend due to the back issues, which are slowly getting better. I'm seeing some weird results with the new dynamic laser implementation. If anyone here on the forum can help, I'd like them to look at two different scenes for me. Using the Blu-ray's of Star Wars The Force Awakens and Oblivion, send 1080p to the 4500 (not scaled to 4K). For Star Wars watch the opening sequence after the title crawl with the ship's shadow covering the planet and the small ships appearing from behind it. How does the dynamic laser do with this scene in your setup? For Oblivion, how does it do with the opening credits that are right after the Universal logo and before the flashback (there are only a few)? Any feedback on these would be appreciated.

Why do I need to send 1080p and not 4K ? Just curious as I don't watch any Blu-rays that way. I upscale everything in my UB900 by default. I have both movies - and I have Oblivion on 4K too, which I think looks pretty good, despite some of the criticism that disc has gotten.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 22, 2017, 09:39:40 AM
Why do I need to send 1080p and not 4K ? Just curious as I don't watch any Blu-rays that way. I upscale everything in my UB900 by default. I have both movies - and I have Oblivion on 4K too, which I think looks pretty good, despite some of the criticism that disc has gotten.

The dynamic laser does not go to full black if you send 4K, so I wanted to see if the things I'm seeing are only with a 1080p signal being sent vs a 4K.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 22, 2017, 09:41:36 AM
Here's what I noticed with Star Wars:

Laser mid, Dynamic iris mode 2.

1) As the final title crawl recesses the entire screen dims down in 2 discrete steps.
2) As the large ship engulfs the planet, the planet itself (and I assume the entire screen) dims down dramatically and fades to black.

With Dynamic Iris off:

1) the screen doesn't dim when the final titles are in the distance
2) Before the planet is in the scene, I see stars, then the camera pans down to reveal the planet (with dynamic iris it was a black screen!).   When large ship flys by the planet, the planet does not dim.... BUT the scene does NOT fade to black and I continue to see the large ship fly by as well as the smaller ones 'turn'.

Wow, this is really something.  It's like the dynamic iris completely closed the lens.

Sounds similar to my results except I see the starts fine as the camera pans down after the title crawl. Things don't start getting weird until the ship covers the planet completely, and then it goes really dim then totally black then really dim despite stuff being on the screen. I'm surprised it totally blacks out here because there is clearly info on the screen. I will test this scene again today with a 4K input signal to see if it reacts better.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 22, 2017, 09:42:51 AM
I first watched with Dynamic mode 2 and saw the first title appear faintly, then the 2nd title appear, disappear and re-appear again.

With Dynamic mode OFF, I could see that the titles 'wipe' in from left to right and the 2nd title doesn't disappear & reappear again.

Is this what you're seeing?

Again, slightly different than my results. I am seeing the titles but they are extremely faint the entire time and never wipe but just flicker the entire time. Very bizarre behavior. I will try this one with 4K as well today to see if any difference. I will also try the UHD version of this.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 22, 2017, 10:11:27 AM
The dynamic laser does not go to full black if you send 4K, so I wanted to see if the things I'm seeing are only with a 1080p signal being sent vs a 4K.

Actually I have gotten Blu-rays upscaled to 4K to close the iris 100%. " The Lincoln Lawyer " was one I posted on the other forum, that had numerous total fade to black scenes. I'll test this later today.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 22, 2017, 10:38:47 AM
Interesting. I will see if I can get a 100% blackout with a 4K input.

As for the issue I'm seeing, it is not a problem with a 4K input. I looked at both the opening titles of Oblivion and the scene from Star Wars and both looked fine if the projector is receiving a 4K signal. I've reported this to JVC, so hopefully they'll have a look at it.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 22, 2017, 10:47:46 AM
Interesting. I will see if I can get a 100% blackout with a 4K input.

As for the issue I'm seeing, it is not a problem with a 4K input. I looked at both the opening titles of Oblivion and the scene from Star Wars and both looked fine if the projector is receiving a 4K signal. I've reported this to JVC, so hopefully they'll have a look at it.

I also saw several total FTB scenes watching Kill Bill 1 & 2 a week ago. It's just easier to let my Panasonic UB900 upscale Blu-rays to 4K. I'd have to manually change it to 1080p each time - that isn't going to happen. And the results look as good to me as sending the RS4500 a 1080p signal.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 22, 2017, 10:53:52 AM
Now if someone could just make " black " look the same with 4K UHD Blu-rays as it does with Blu-ray content, I'd be real happy. That's a source material / 4K standard issue. And whomever decided that was a good idea should be yelled at. Sometimes I think 1080p source material can look better than 4K source material because of this. At least that breathes new life into my Blu-ray collection !

I was totally surprised to see how good the fade to black scenes looked watching " 60 Minutes " last night. I don't usually watch that in the theater.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 22, 2017, 11:13:53 AM
Now if someone could just make " black " look the same with 4K UHD Blu-rays as it does with Blu-ray content, I'd be real happy. That's a source material / 4K standard issue. And whomever decided that was a good idea should be yelled at. Sometimes I think 1080p source material can look better than 4K source material because of this. At least that breathes new life into my Blu-ray collection !

I was totally surprised to see how good the fade to black scenes looked watching " 60 Minutes " last night. I don't usually watch that in the theater.

HDR has differing black levels because the encode is a direct translation of what the mastering was done at. So if they mastered with a display with a .005 black level instead of 0, you see what they see. With standard HDR displays this isn't a problem, but with projectors that don't take that into account, it is. You could use the Arve tool and fix the issue though, it has a way to compensate for this. That is my next step this week, making a custom curve for my 4500 in mid laser. The fan noise in high laser is just too much for me (mid is actually more than I'd like).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 22, 2017, 11:47:23 AM
HDR has differing black levels because the encode is a direct translation of what the mastering was done at. So if they mastered with a display with a .005 black level instead of 0, you see what they see. With standard HDR displays this isn't a problem, but with projectors that don't take that into account, it is. You could use the Arve tool and fix the issue though, it has a way to compensate for this. That is my next step this week, making a custom curve for my 4500 in mid laser. The fan noise in high laser is just too much for me (mid is actually more than I'd like).

Mid laser is giving me 38 foot lamberts for HDR, which is just fine on my screens. Overall everything looks pretty darn good. Black levels are higher than HD sources, but I'll live with that for right now. Actual content looks great however - dark scenes included. Like this ( Star Trek Into Darkness 4K ) -
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18451767_10212881217566256_7973286403495302854_o.jpg?oh=b72ee4a32eec6efd3835bb2470ff3ab1&oe=59A96DBF)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18449614_10212881221326350_7417881982756419520_o.jpg?oh=69bb4c1a42b1d1bd49eb037b8e392740&oe=59AFF1CA)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 22, 2017, 12:30:41 PM
If you have the Masciola test patterns, just set brightness to clip at digital 78 (81 still flashing) and you should be good to go for brightness.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 22, 2017, 04:15:08 PM
If you have the Masciola test patterns, just set brightness to clip at digital 78 (81 still flashing) and you should be good to go for brightness.

You talking to me? My projector is fully calibrated. The picture looks good ( as you can see in my previous post ). What I'm talking about are black frames between the movie menu and the movie starting, for one example. Black transitional frames I'll call them. There are things like that where the black levels on a 4K UHD Blu-ray clearly are encoded higher than a regular Blu-ray. It's an HDR thing for sure. Black levels in actual 4K HDR movies look fine.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 23, 2017, 04:46:10 AM
My projector was calibrated yesterday by Ken Whitcomb.   It looks great.  I had some black crush with SDR previously and of course he fixed that.  The only downside is that a black screen is grey, not black and the corners are brighter, reminding me of my old JVC RS1.   

I have the weirdest issue that is driving me nuts and in the off chance that someone here can shed any light on it, I'm going to mention it.  It shouldn't be related to my new projector but the problem surfaced when the RS4500 arrived on the scene.   My FIOS Motorola STB has a lip-sync problem that is very severe.  It turns out the audio is delayed so I can't correct via the typical lip-sync features in my pre/processor.  There don't seem to be any settings in the STB that I can look to for a cure and googling hasn't helped.  Any ideas?   Why this would happen when I switch projectors I cannot figure out (all other sources are fine, including others going through the pre/processor). 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 23, 2017, 08:38:57 AM
My projector was calibrated yesterday by Ken Whitcomb.   It looks great.  I had some black crush with SDR previously and of course he fixed that.  The only downside is that a black screen is grey, not black and the corners are brighter, reminding me of my old JVC RS1.   

I have the weirdest issue that is driving me nuts and in the off chance that someone here can shed any light on it, I'm going to mention it.  It shouldn't be related to my new projector but the problem surfaced when the RS4500 arrived on the scene.   My FIOS Motorola STB has a lip-sync problem that is very severe.  It turns out the audio is delayed so I can't correct via the typical lip-sync features in my pre/processor.  There don't seem to be any settings in the STB that I can look to for a cure and googling hasn't helped.  Any ideas?   Why this would happen when I switch projectors I cannot figure out (all other sources are fine, including others going through the pre/processor).

Ha - I've had the same lip sync issues. I'm using Dish, and a Hopper ( 1080p - not 4K ). Here's the weird thing - anything DVR'd is fine, and some channels ( live ) are better than others lip sync wise. That said, Dish is going today and U Verse is being installed - I'll let you know if there is any change.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 23, 2017, 09:07:45 AM
My projector was calibrated yesterday by Ken Whitcomb.   It looks great.  I had some black crush with SDR previously and of course he fixed that.  The only downside is that a black screen is grey, not black and the corners are brighter, reminding me of my old JVC RS1.   

I have the weirdest issue that is driving me nuts and in the off chance that someone here can shed any light on it, I'm going to mention it.  It shouldn't be related to my new projector but the problem surfaced when the RS4500 arrived on the scene.   My FIOS Motorola STB has a lip-sync problem that is very severe.  It turns out the audio is delayed so I can't correct via the typical lip-sync features in my pre/processor.  There don't seem to be any settings in the STB that I can look to for a cure and googling hasn't helped.  Any ideas?   Why this would happen when I switch projectors I cannot figure out (all other sources are fine, including others going through the pre/processor).

The RS4500 doesn't have the native contrast of the newer JVCs and is more in line with the performance of the older JVCs. With a 1080p input (to the projector and never scaled) you can get the laser to shut off, but I've also found that you will get other artifacts depending on the content, that may pop up on occasion.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 23, 2017, 10:32:53 AM
The RS4500 doesn't have the native contrast of the newer JVCs and is more in line with the performance of the older JVCs.

Oh believe me, I know.  My RS1 had 15k native contrast (according to specs).  The RS4500 is, what, half that?

I assumed it would at least beat the contrast of my 10 year old Sim2, but it's a lot closer than I hoped.  I just didn't expect the bright corners.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 23, 2017, 10:34:44 AM
A LUT is a data Look-Up-Table...  used to calibrate displays.

http://calman.spectracal.com/creating-3d-luts.html

Thank you.  I need a LUT box. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 23, 2017, 11:21:04 AM
Oh believe me, I know.  My RS1 had 15k native contrast (according to specs).  The RS4500 is, what, half that?

I assumed it would at least beat the contrast of my 10 year old Sim2, but it's a lot closer than I hoped.  I just didn't expect the bright corners.

What your actual native contrast will be all depends on what aperture setting you are using. WORST case is around 8K:1. But if you are using the aperture it is probably higher. I am getting about 14,000:1, but with the RS620 I was getting closer to 60K:1 in my setup native (way higher than that with the DI engaged).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 23, 2017, 11:46:30 AM
Oh believe me, I know.  My RS1 had 15k native contrast (according to specs).  The RS4500 is, what, half that?

I assumed it would at least beat the contrast of my 10 year old Sim2, but it's a lot closer than I hoped.  I just didn't expect the bright corners.

I haven't seen bright corners on mine, just FYI. Hopefully you only see them on test patterns.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on May 23, 2017, 11:51:58 AM
I have an RS1 now so could probably go to the RS4500 without being annoyed by the lack of contrast.  But going from an RS620 seems like it might be a difficult compromise. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 23, 2017, 11:52:56 AM
What your actual native contrast will be all depends on what aperture setting you are using. WORST case is around 8K:1. But if you are using the aperture it is probably higher. I am getting about 14,000:1, but with the RS620 I was getting closer to 60K:1 in my setup native (way higher than that with the DI engaged).

Thanks for the clarification.  Ken didn't measure the contrast and I thought it only improved with the dynamic laser, so I will now assume that with the aperture at -7 (which is where I have it) that the contrast is higher than 8k.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 23, 2017, 11:54:03 AM
I haven't seen bright corners on mine, just FYI. Hopefully you only see them on test patterns.

I see them on black scenes (e.g. fade to blacks).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 23, 2017, 01:17:17 PM
I have an RS1 now so could probably go to the RS4500 without being annoyed by the lack of contrast.  But going from an RS620 seems like it might be a difficult compromise. :)

Yes and no. There are trade offs with everything. If I had a smaller screen than the 620 is a no brainer. With a larger screen I started bumping into sharpness benefits. The RS4500 shows a noticeable bump in resolution with both Blu-ray and UHD playback. But neither projector disappoints!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 23, 2017, 01:32:23 PM
I have an RS1 now so could probably go to the RS4500 without being annoyed by the lack of contrast.  But going from an RS620 seems like it might be a difficult compromise. :)

Only on a few scenes ( I'm coming from an RS600 ) do I wish I had more contrast. Most of the time things look better - cleaner image than the RS600, and 4k looks outstanding. It's just the rare scene that you can tell that there is less contrast. Hell, I even put " Dark City " on, and it look pretty darn good !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 23, 2017, 01:41:46 PM
Only on a few scenes ( I'm coming from an RS600 ) do I wish I had more contrast. Most of the time things look better - cleaner image than the RS600, and 4k looks outstanding. It's just the rare scene that you can tell that there is less contrast. Hell, I even put " Dark City " on, and it look pretty darn good !

Ooooh, Dark City, there's a good one to try.

Yeah, there's no question that coming from an RS1 you'd be thrilled with the RS4500 (as you darn well should be!).  I still have my RS1 and while it's still hooked up and watchable (in a smaller room upstairs), I rarely do as I'd have a hard time with the lack of detail (by comparison).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 23, 2017, 02:24:04 PM
The RS1 vs RS4500 is literally night and day difference. Never mind the increase in just about every way (optics, resolution, contrast, motion resolution, lamp stability) but also the accuracy of image. The RS1 and RS2 were horrible for flesh tones and accuracy overall. The RS1 doesn't stack up well to any of the modern JVCs.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 23, 2017, 10:09:37 PM
I got the 4500 up on Saturday. Have had a long weekend due to the back issues, which are slowly getting better. I'm seeing some weird results with the new dynamic laser implementation. If anyone here on the forum can help, I'd like them to look at two different scenes for me. Using the Blu-ray's of Star Wars The Force Awakens and Oblivion, send 1080p to the 4500 (not scaled to 4K). For Star Wars watch the opening sequence after the title crawl with the ship's shadow covering the planet and the small ships appearing from behind it. How does the dynamic laser do with this scene in your setup? For Oblivion, how does it do with the opening credits that are right after the Universal logo and before the flashback (there are only a few)? Any feedback on these would be appreciated.

So I just watched these scenes, but let my UB900 send upscaled 4K. I also used the Oblivion Blu-ray rather than the 4K disc.

Star Wars : The Force Awakens. the title crawl looks just like all the other movies - title lines are fairly bright yellow, and slowly fade into the background until they are so small I can barely see them. I don't see the dynamic iris work at all. I watched until the attack on the planet. The small ships coming around the large ship look spectacular - they are fairly bright. Once the large ship fills the screen, there is good shadow detail. Didn't see the dynamic iris work once during the first 5 minutes.

I watched " Memento " tonight, and I did see the iris trip up a few times, so it is working.

" For Oblivion, how does it do with the opening credits that are right after the Universal logo and before the flashback (there are only a few)? Any feedback on these would be appreciated. " - two scenes of one line each of white credits on a black background. Doesn't look any different than if I watched it on my RS600. No iris detected. Then the B & W flashback scene. I watched the credit twice just to be sure. Looks like white credits on a black background. Nothing unusual.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on May 24, 2017, 02:03:42 AM
I have the weirdest issue that is driving me nuts and in the off chance that someone here can shed any light on it, I'm going to mention it.  It shouldn't be related to my new projector but the problem surfaced when the RS4500 arrived on the scene.   My FIOS Motorola STB has a lip-sync problem that is very severe.  It turns out the audio is delayed so I can't correct via the typical lip-sync features in my pre/processor.  There don't seem to be any settings in the STB that I can look to for a cure and googling hasn't helped.  Any ideas?   Why this would happen when I switch projectors I cannot figure out (all other sources are fine, including others going through the pre/processor).

The Z1 added a lot of extra a/v delay to my setup and I had to remeasure and correct to remove lipsync issues...


Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 24, 2017, 04:48:26 AM
The Z1 added a lot of extra a/v delay to my setup and I had to remeasure and correct to remove lipsync issues...

When you say 'remeasure' is there a way to do this?  When the video is delayed, can one correct that in a device like a Lumagen (I'm just curious, not about to buy a Lumagen for TV, lol).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 24, 2017, 07:03:18 AM
So I just watched these scenes, but let my UB900 send upscaled 4K. I also used the Oblivion Blu-ray rather than the 4K disc.

Star Wars : The Force Awakens. the title crawl looks just like all the other movies - title lines are fairly bright yellow, and slowly fade into the background until they are so small I can barely see them. I don't see the dynamic iris work at all. I watched until the attack on the planet. The small ships coming around the large ship look spectacular - they are fairly bright. Once the large ship fills the screen, there is good shadow detail. Didn't see the dynamic iris work once during the first 5 minutes.

I watched " Memento " tonight, and I did see the iris trip up a few times, so it is working.

" For Oblivion, how does it do with the opening credits that are right after the Universal logo and before the flashback (there are only a few)? Any feedback on these would be appreciated. " - two scenes of one line each of white credits on a black background. Doesn't look any different than if I watched it on my RS600. No iris detected. Then the B & W flashback scene. I watched the credit twice just to be sure. Looks like white credits on a black background. Nothing unusual.

That's exactly what I'm seeing if I send the video via 4K. You should take a look at the same scenes in 1080p and see how much difference it makes! Nasty dynamic dimming artifacts!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 24, 2017, 07:41:11 AM
I wonder when we'll see further firmware updates by JVC.    This dynamic laser issues seems not so much the result of a performance tweak but an actual software bug that should be addressable.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 24, 2017, 08:17:40 AM
That's exactly what I'm seeing if I send the video via 4K. You should take a look at the same scenes in 1080p and see how much difference it makes! Nasty dynamic dimming artifacts!

You are making me scared to see that !  :-[  I  wonder why the difference. One thing - my HDTV feed is 1080i ( or whatever they send ) and I do not see dynamic dimming problems with that. I do watch a few things like " Nova " that has scenes that could trip it up. 

I'm happy with the Panasonic UB900 upscaling Blu-rays to 4K, and you just gave me another reason not to change it.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 24, 2017, 08:21:14 AM
When you say 'remeasure' is there a way to do this?  When the video is delayed, can one correct that in a device like a Lumagen (I'm just curious, not about to buy a Lumagen for TV, lol).

My Denon X7200WA has audio delay for each source, so that's how I'm going to do it. Haven't got it totally dialed in yet though. One interesting thing - it seemed like turning on CMD to high improved audio sync, and it didn't have any affect on the picture ( since it's already shot on video, at least what I watched at the time ).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on May 24, 2017, 08:42:36 AM
When you say 'remeasure' is there a way to do this?  When the video is delayed, can one correct that in a device like a Lumagen (I'm just curious, not about to buy a Lumagen for TV, lol).

Lumagen has no support for lipsync.  I've asked many many times over the years...

I use a Syncheck 3 to measure a/v delay in my system and use my Meridian processor to correct it.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on May 24, 2017, 08:44:20 AM
One interesting thing - it seemed like turning on CMD to high improved audio sync, and it didn't have any affect on the picture ( since it's already shot on video, at least what I watched at the time ).

CMD *adds* a massive a/v delay, so it could be that it's moving it closer to some delay that works in your system.  In mine the delay is so big that I cannot correct it at all.  Fortunately I have no used for the CMD.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 24, 2017, 08:47:43 AM
My Denon X7200WA has audio delay for each source, so that's how I'm going to do it. Haven't got it totally dialed in yet though. One interesting thing - it seemed like turning on CMD to high improved audio sync, and it didn't have any affect on the picture ( since it's already shot on video, at least what I watched at the time ).

Craig, my issue is that the audio is delayed, not the video.   If it was video, I could fix it in the manner you describe (by adding an audio delay in my pre/pro).  That said, I'll try CMD and see what happens.  I did try DVR'd (recorded) material and while the audio was still off, it wasn't off to the same degree.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on May 24, 2017, 09:03:16 AM
Craig, my issue is that the audio is delayed, not the video.   If it was video, I could fix it in the manner you describe (by adding an audio delay in my pre/pro).  That said, I'll try CMD and see what happens.  I did try DVR'd (recorded) material and while the audio was still off, it wasn't off to the same degree.

Video delay is unusual.  Audio is usually passed much faster.  How are you routing your audio?

Turn on the CMD otherwise - it really slows the video down and may help you out.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 24, 2017, 10:03:13 AM
Craig, my issue is that the audio is delayed, not the video.   If it was video, I could fix it in the manner you describe (by adding an audio delay in my pre/pro).  That said, I'll try CMD and see what happens.  I did try DVR'd (recorded) material and while the audio was still off, it wasn't off to the same degree.

We just switched yesterday from Dish to U Verse. No change - still has the lip sync issue. Has to be something about the RS4500, since I did not have a lip sync issue with my RS600 ( or any other projector ). I also tried the low lag setting, but CMD high seemed better. DVR'd material doesn't seem to have a lip sync problem here either - very strange !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 24, 2017, 12:09:11 PM
Thanks for the clarification.  Ken didn't measure the contrast and I thought it only improved with the dynamic laser, so I will now assume that with the aperture at -7 (which is where I have it) that the contrast is higher than 8k.

At -7 on the manual iris, you will be getting a lot better than 8,000:1.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 24, 2017, 12:10:44 PM
I see them on black scenes (e.g. fade to blacks).

Do you see this when you feed 1080P content to the projector?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 24, 2017, 12:30:39 PM
Do you see this when you feed 1080P content to the projector?

Yes.  I think it's also there on 4k content but to be honest I'm not entirely sure since I've mostly been playing my movie server (ripped 2k blurays).  But I don't use the dynamic laser with non-4k content (in case that's where you were going with this).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 24, 2017, 01:40:41 PM
Just wanted to give a heads up for owners, the Arve tool that JVC owners have been using to generate custom HDR curves for their projectors does work with the 4500. I was able to generate a few curves last night and they loaded just fine. This enabled me to use the projector in mid laser with a great looking image until I figure out how to quiet down the projector in high laser. So if you're itching to get the best HDR performance possible, I'd look into using the tool! There is TONS of information on how to use it over at AVS in the other JVC threads.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 24, 2017, 02:20:11 PM
Just wanted to give a heads up for owners, the Arve tool that JVC owners have been using to generate custom HDR curves for their projectors does work with the 4500. I was able to generate a few curves last night and they loaded just fine. This enabled me to use the projector in mid laser with a great looking image until I figure out how to quiet down the projector in high laser. So if you're itching to get the best HDR performance possible, I'd look into using the tool! There is TONS of information on how to use it over at AVS in the other JVC threads.

Thanks, that's exciting news!  One quick question before I dive in: is this something that only calibrators can use - or put another way, does it require expensive calibration tools and a steep learning curve?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 24, 2017, 02:54:23 PM
Thanks, that's exciting news!  One quick question before I dive in: is this something that only calibrators can use - or put another way, does it require expensive calibration tools and a steep learning curve?

No calibration tools required at all, just a laptop that can connect to the projector via Cat5. There is a learning curve, but there are also some quick guides over at AVS that will get you good results with ease. Plus, there is ZERO risk of screwing anything up and when you learn how to use the tool you can just continually change the parameters and dial in the image to your liking. You can save up to three different curves on the projector, but I can create and load one faster than I typed this post, so updates are simple.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 24, 2017, 03:46:43 PM
No calibration tools required at all, just a laptop that can connect to the projector via Cat5. There is a learning curve, but there are also some quick guides over at AVS that will get you good results with ease. Plus, there is ZERO risk of screwing anything up and when you learn how to use the tool you can just continually change the parameters and dial in the image to your liking. You can save up to three different curves on the projector, but I can create and load one faster than I typed this post, so updates are simple.

Sounds awesome.  Thanks, Kris.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on May 25, 2017, 02:50:28 AM
Just wanted to give a heads up for owners, the Arve tool that JVC owners have been using to generate custom HDR curves for their projectors does work with the 4500. I was able to generate a few curves last night and they loaded just fine. This enabled me to use the projector in mid laser with a great looking image until I figure out how to quiet down the projector in high laser. So if you're itching to get the best HDR performance possible, I'd look into using the tool! There is TONS of information on how to use it over at AVS in the other JVC threads.

This is my backup plan if the Lumagen HDR Intensity Mapping doesn't work as hoped...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 25, 2017, 06:18:42 AM
Yes.  I think it's also there on 4k content but to be honest I'm not entirely sure since I've mostly been playing my movie server (ripped 2k blurays).  But I don't use the dynamic laser with non-4k content (in case that's where you were going with this).

Using dynamic dimming mode 2 and with the latest firmware you should not see any bright corners, because the laser turns completely off on a fade to black with 1080P content. And even with 4K content, it turns almost all the way off. So much so that I can't make hand puppets on my screen, so it should not show bright corners.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 25, 2017, 07:40:29 AM
Using dynamic dimming mode 2 and with the latest firmware you should not see any bright corners, because the laser turns completely off on a fade to black with 1080P content. And even with 4K content, it turns almost all the way off. So much so that I can't make hand puppets on my screen, so it should not show bright corners.

I rarely use the dynamic laser since it is very distracting and imo needs a lot of improvement.  Of course with 1080p content we now know (courtesy of Kris) that is very problematic.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 25, 2017, 08:04:08 AM
Received my 3D glasses yesterday and watched a bit of The Walk this morning.   3D was impressive. Not sure how much I'd want to watch 3D movies but it did seem to work rather well.  I had to put the laser in HIGH mode (since the glasses darken the image substantially).

Afterwards I watched a little bit of 2D material with the lamp on HIGH.   Yes, it's loud, but boy the image was mega- impressive.  Now I think I want to build a hush box.   Kris, since it sounds like you have an idea of what you're going to do in this respect, do you care to share how you would approach this?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 25, 2017, 08:34:22 AM
I rarely use the dynamic laser since it is very distracting and imo needs a lot of improvement.  Of course with 1080p content we now know (courtesy of Kris) that is very problematic.

Interesting that you find it distracting. I find it works quite well most of the time. Then again, I haven't found any D.I. that works 100% perfect 100% of the time.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 25, 2017, 08:43:18 AM
Interesting that you find it distracting. I find it works quite well most of the time. Then again, I haven't found any D.I. that works 100% perfect 100% of the time.

It probably depends on the material.  On Underworld UHD it worked great.  I'll have to try it more with 4k material (of which I've only watched one movie so far and sampled 3 or 4 others).   Most of what I've been checking out is 1080p material since I have a movie server with thousands of titles which I can watch instantaneously (no loading times etc) and I can surf around quickly.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 25, 2017, 08:49:30 AM
It probably depends on the material.  On Underworld UHD it worked great.  I'll have to try it more with 4k material (of which I've only watched one movie so far and sampled 3 or 4 others).   Most of what I've been checking out is 1080p material since I have a movie server with thousands of titles which I can watch instantaneously (no loading times etc) and I can surf around quickly.

In that case, if it's not working with 1080p, I'd switch it off. One thing that's strange though is I don't see it misbehave with HDTV, which is 1080p. Then again, I don't watch a ton of HDTV either. But what I have watched seems fine. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on May 25, 2017, 09:07:39 AM
I tried the dynamic laser for the first time in a while the other day and immediately spotted a lag jump.  Turned it back off.  I don't miss the dynamic laser at all, although I would like FFTB.  There should be an option that just gives that and no other dimming...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on May 25, 2017, 10:12:31 AM
I tried the dynamic laser for the first time in a while the other day and immediately spotted a lag jump.  Turned it back off.  I don't miss the dynamic laser at all, although I would like FFTB.  There should be an option that just gives that and no other dimming...

Mark, when you say 'lag jump' do you mean missed video frames or are you describing changes in brightness only?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on May 25, 2017, 10:19:53 AM
Mark, when you say 'lag jump' do you mean missed video frames or are you describing changes in brightness only?

The scene changes and a split second later the dynamic laser changes.  Lag.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on May 25, 2017, 08:33:47 PM
The scene changes and a split second later the dynamic laser changes.  Lag.

That sounds more like how the dynamic dimming worked, before the firmware update.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on May 25, 2017, 10:47:18 PM
Anyone got a calibrated Z1 where they can run and take a pic of this testpattern.?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on May 26, 2017, 07:14:37 AM
Anyone got a calibrated Z1 where they can run and take a pic of this testpattern.?

Where is this pattern sourced from?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 26, 2017, 07:43:22 AM
Anyone got a calibrated Z1 where they can run and take a pic of this testpattern.?

I'm waiting for Ray to have his 4K UHD patterns available on UHD Blu-ray - which he said are just about ready. That and I'm still waiting on my thumb drives from Amazon. I'd rather play them through my source device ( the Panasonic UB900 ) on disc though, same as the movies I watch.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on May 26, 2017, 09:31:15 AM
Where is this pattern sourced from?

The internet somewhere.. Dont remember the site, try google UHD testpattens, and im sure you will find it.

I checked its UHD resolution so it will do fine for a projector resolution test, wich is easy to take a picture off, even with a lousy cell phone camera.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 26, 2017, 09:31:59 AM
That sounds more like how the dynamic dimming worked, before the firmware update.

It's working much better after the firmware update, that's for sure.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Javs on May 28, 2017, 03:46:36 PM
Where is this pattern sourced from?

Masciola HDR Suite.

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Andreas21 on May 29, 2017, 05:41:20 AM
Anyone got a calibrated Z1 where they can run and take a pic of this testpattern.?

Why are you pushing on with asking if someone can take screenshots of the 4500? Are you considering buying one or are you just looking for something to nitpick?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stridsvognen on May 29, 2017, 08:55:04 AM
Why are you pushing on with asking if someone can take screenshots of the 4500? Are you considering buying one or are you just looking for something to nitpick?

Why are you asking ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Andreas21 on May 29, 2017, 11:08:40 AM
Why are you asking ?

Because I know how you operate...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 29, 2017, 01:39:34 PM
A few more RS4500 screen shots from " Interstellar " -

https://discuss.avscience.com/?topic=292.msg4957;topicseen#new
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on May 30, 2017, 11:22:10 AM
While mode 2 laser dimming still isn't " perfect ", I must say that at no time watching " Interstellar " Sunday night, did I ever wish I had my RS600 back. The picture looked much cleaner than on the RS600. Film grain was always enhanced more than I like  with the RS600 ( not so with the VW600, but the picture looked less 3 dimensional / " flatter " ). Also, with more time with the RS4500, I am getting near complete fade to black even with 4K ( upscaled Blu-rays ). There is still a little light coming out of the projector, but not much.  Quick FTB scenes look black, long ones ( once your eyes adjust ) are extremely dark. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on June 01, 2017, 06:27:58 PM
Somewhat off topic but I saw Wonder Woman tonight.  I enjoyed it a lot (and I'm not a big superhero fan). I don't see all that many movies at the cinema so I paid close attention to the quality.   It was good, but in no way better than the RS4500.  I look forward to the HDR version of this film and seeing how it looks in my theater.  I think it will be better.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on June 02, 2017, 08:30:51 AM
Somewhat off topic but I saw Wonder Woman tonight.  I enjoyed it a lot (and I'm not a big superhero fan). I don't see all that many movies at the cinema so I paid close attention to the quality.   It was good, but in no way better than the RS4500.  I look forward to the HDR version of this film and seeing how it looks in my theater.  I think it will be better.

I'll have to keep an eye out for that movie. I had a friend over who had never seen a 4K projector or the movie Lucy - gave me an excuse to watch it again with him. He was blown away !  8)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on June 13, 2017, 10:29:13 AM
Just wanted to give a heads up for owners, the Arve tool that JVC owners have been using to generate custom HDR curves for their projectors does work with the 4500. I was able to generate a few curves last night and they loaded just fine. This enabled me to use the projector in mid laser with a great looking image until I figure out how to quiet down the projector in high laser. So if you're itching to get the best HDR performance possible, I'd look into using the tool! There is TONS of information on how to use it over at AVS in the other JVC threads.

Now that you've had your own RS4500 for a while, any new thoughts / measurements ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on June 13, 2017, 02:31:42 PM
Now that you've had your own RS4500 for a while, any new thoughts / measurements ?

I think he sold his and bought a Sony.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on June 13, 2017, 07:50:40 PM
I think he sold his and bought a Sony.

Where did you hear this from?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on June 13, 2017, 08:18:03 PM
Where did you hear this from?

Sorry, I was kidding.  I should have added a smiley face.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on June 14, 2017, 04:48:15 AM
Sorry, I was kidding.  I should have added a smiley face.

I was going to let you know that who ever said it was either stirring up stuff or joking. Was just trying to find out where it came from. Kris called me yesterday telling me that he was told that someone had posted that he had sold his 4500 and bought a 5000. I came across your post, so inquired. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on June 14, 2017, 05:05:19 AM
I was going to let you know that who ever said it was either stirring up stuff or joking. Was just trying to find out where it came from. Kris called me yesterday telling me that he was told that someone had posted that he had sold his 4500 and bought a 5000. I came across your post, so inquired. :)

Oh, so someone else posted something similar? Wild coincidence (wasn't me!).  My 'joke' was just a way of teasing him because he hasn't been very active lately.  Maybe he's too busy watching movies - or busy reviewing another product.

I did follow his suggestion on using the ARVE tool to create a custom gamma curve for HDR that satisfies in mid laser mode and while I'm sure his curves would be better than mine, I'm pretty darn happy.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on June 14, 2017, 06:57:46 AM
Oh, so someone else posted something similar? Wild coincidence (wasn't me!).  My 'joke' was just a way of teasing him because he hasn't been very active lately.  Maybe he's too busy watching movies - or busy reviewing another product.

I did follow his suggestion on using the ARVE tool to create a custom gamma curve for HDR that satisfies in mid laser mode and while I'm sure his curves would be better than mine, I'm pretty darn happy.

Not that I know of. This is the only place I have seen, where someone said he sold his 4500. Thought maybe I missed it. That is why I asked.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on June 14, 2017, 10:07:07 AM
Definitely didn't sell the 4500! I've been off the boards lately as I've been on A LOT of travel for work, so haven't had enough time to really chime in. I spent some time playing with the new Lumagen HDR stuff right before this last trip with great results, but still figuring it all out. Hope to get some time this week but my family schedule goes way up starting this weekend for the next few weeks, so I won't be getting nearly as much time to tinker with the 4500, but I will be watching a lot on it for sure!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on June 15, 2017, 11:13:40 AM
For anyone that has or is getting Ray Masciola's UHD /HDR - 10 test patterns, I find the last Resolution Pattern under Misc. Patterns - #09, Black Pixels Single - to work really well for focusing. Just FYI.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on June 15, 2017, 11:54:51 AM
For anyone that has or is getting Ray Masciola's UHD /HDR - 10 test patterns, I find the last Resolution Pattern under Misc. Patterns - #09, Black Pixels Single - to work really well for focusing. Just FYI.

Thanks, I'll check that one out.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on June 15, 2017, 12:12:11 PM
Thanks, I'll check that one out.

With my 61 year old eyes, it can be tough getting the focus that last little bit tack sharp. This test pattern really helps dial it in. There are other useful ones too. I'll buy these on UHD Blu-ray too, when it comes out later this month.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on June 15, 2017, 12:19:35 PM
With my 61 year old eyes, it can be tough getting the focus that last little bit tack sharp. This test pattern really helps dial it in. There are other useful ones too. I'll buy these on UHD Blu-ray too, when it comes out later this month.

This is probably a silly question, but what's YOUR technique for focusing?  I simply try to get the spaces between pixels to show up (which obviously are very small so when you see the spaces it means the pixels aren't blurred). 

If this is not the optimum way to do it, I'd love to hear what is.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on June 15, 2017, 01:23:16 PM
It has been a while that I had the time to both play with my Z1 and reading and writing here, but today i had some time to do some more experimenting.
I still had an Isco 2 anamorphic lens but did not yet tested it with the Z1, to be honest i thought it would down grade a bit the excellent sharpness of the Z1 lens.
But oh boy, im i glad i spend some time putting it up in front of the beast, i was on max zoom because of the screen versus projector distance so now i just got a few cm more wich is great but not the reason why am so exited.
The image with the Isco just looks awesome, i have more light, picture looks sharper because i am not at max zoom of the Z1 lens. Only shame is the tiny bit distortion on top an bottom because i am now at the edge of the Isco lens, you can see it on test patterns but the way the image looks when watching movies makes you instantly forget about that.
With the firmware update of the laser dimming, the update on the Panasonic to adjust the clipping of the HDR, and now the iso, i am very pleased with the results.

Is anyone else using an Anamorphic lens in combination with the Z1, and if so do you also find it a good combo even if it downgrades the suburb lens quality of the Z1 a tiny bit?
i must say that in overall quality to my  eye i have a better looking picture.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on June 15, 2017, 01:28:33 PM
This is probably a silly question, but what's YOUR technique for focusing?  I simply try to get the spaces between pixels to show up (which obviously are very small so when you see the spaces it means the pixels aren't blurred). 

If this is not the optimum way to do it, I'd love to hear what is.

That was my technique. With the test pattern though, you have the entire screen covered in a grid of " dots " and it's really easy to see them tighten up in focus ! Far easier than looking at the pixels alone. At least to my eyes.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on June 15, 2017, 01:29:07 PM
It has been a while that I had the time to both play with my Z1 and reading and writing here, but today I had some time to do some more experimenting.
I still had an Isco 2 anamorphic lens but did not yet tested it with the Z1, to be honest t thought it would down grade a bit the excellent sharpness of the Z1 lens.
But oh boy, im I gad I spend some time putting it up in front of the beast, I was on max zoom because of the screen versus projector distance so now I just got a few cm more wich is great but not the reason why am so exited.
The image with the Isco just looks awesome, I have more light, picture looks sharper because I am not at max zoom of the Z1 lens. Only shame is the tiny bit distortion on top an bottom because I am now at the edge of the Isco lens, you can see it on test patterns but the way the image looks when watching movies makes you instantly forget about that.
Wist the firmware update of the laser dimming, the update on the Panasonic to adjust the clipping of the HDR, and now the iso, I am very pleased with the results.

Is anyone else using an Anamorphic lens in combination with the Z1, and if so do you also find it a good combo even if it downgrades the suburb lens quality of the Z1 a tiny bit?
I must say that in overall quality to my  eye I had a better looking picture.

I have an ISCO II installed and use it - not all the time - I still zoom sometimes, but as long I as back off the aperture a couple notches when I use the lens, it looks great.   I'm not sure I've truly a/b tested with lens vs zooming for 4k material yet (I probably should).  Anyways, I agree that the lens looks great and it sure is much faster than zooming.  Also, the second mode of the Anamorphic feature derives 16x9 with the anamorphic lens in place - so if you quickly need to see a 16x9 (e.g. for menus etc) it's even faster than my Cineslide!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on June 15, 2017, 01:29:46 PM
That was my technique. With the test pattern though, you have the entire screen covered in a grid of " dots " and it's really easy to see them tighten up in focus ! Far easier than looking at the pixels alone. At least to my eyes.

Cool, thanks for the reply, Craig.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on June 15, 2017, 07:26:28 PM
It has been a while that I had the time to both play with my Z1 and reading and writing here, but today i had some time to do some more experimenting.
I still had an Isco 2 anamorphic lens but did not yet tested it with the Z1, to be honest i thought it would down grade a bit the excellent sharpness of the Z1 lens.
But oh boy, im i glad i spend some time putting it up in front of the beast, i was on max zoom because of the screen versus projector distance so now i just got a few cm more wich is great but not the reason why am so exited.
The image with the Isco just looks awesome, i have more light, picture looks sharper because i am not at max zoom of the Z1 lens. Only shame is the tiny bit distortion on top an bottom because i am now at the edge of the Isco lens, you can see it on test patterns but the way the image looks when watching movies makes you instantly forget about that.
With the firmware update of the laser dimming, the update on the Panasonic to adjust the clipping of the HDR, and now the iso, i am very pleased with the results.

Is anyone else using an Anamorphic lens in combination with the Z1, and if so do you also find it a good combo even if it downgrades the suburb lens quality of the Z1 a tiny bit?
i must say that in overall quality to my  eye i have a better looking picture.

I use an A-lens with my RS4500. Happy with the image I am getting.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on June 15, 2017, 07:36:03 PM
I have an ISCO II installed and use it - not all the time - I still zoom sometimes, but as long I as back off the aperture a couple notches when I use the lens, it looks great.   I'm not sure I've truly a/b tested with lens vs zooming for 4k material yet (I probably should).  Anyways, I agree that the lens looks great and it sure is much faster than zooming.  Also, the second mode of the Anamorphic feature derives 16x9 with the anamorphic lens in place - so if you quickly need to see a 16x9 (e.g. for menus etc) it's even faster than my Cineslide!

Yeah, I use the anamorphic B setting for the same reason, to quickly see a menu.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on June 24, 2017, 08:08:22 AM
This is probably a silly question, but what's YOUR technique for focusing?  I simply try to get the spaces between pixels to show up (which obviously are very small so when you see the spaces it means the pixels aren't blurred). 

If this is not the optimum way to do it, I'd love to hear what is.

By the way, I did a little experiment last night to see if my RS4500 kept perfect focus shifting from my 2.35:1 lens memory, back to my 16:9 lens memory, and then back to the 2.35:1 lens memory. My conclusion is you should probably re-focus if you want it tack sharp. I just keep Ray Masciola's UHD /HDR - 10 test patterns on a thumb drive plugged into the front USB port on my Panasonic UB900.  Pretty fast to pull up that focusing pattern ( Resolution Pattern under Misc. Patterns - #09, Black Pixels Single ) and fine tune it to perfection !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: DavidHir on June 25, 2017, 11:14:07 AM
By the way, I did a little experiment last night to see if my RS4500 kept perfect focus shifting from my 2.35:1 lens memory, back to my 16:9 lens memory, and then back to the 2.35:1 lens memory. My conclusion is you should probably re-focus if you want it tack sharp. I just keep Ray Masciola's UHD /HDR - 10 test patterns on a thumb drive plugged into the front USB port on my Panasonic UB900.  Pretty fast to pull up that focusing pattern ( Resolution Pattern under Misc. Patterns - #09, Black Pixels Single ) and fine tune it to perfection !

Sounds similar to previous JVCs.  When I owned the LS10000, the defocus was really bad when shifting to another memory.  So bad that  I could see it on content from my seated position!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on June 25, 2017, 09:20:07 PM
Sounds similar to previous JVCs.  When I owned the LS10000, the defocus was really bad when shifting to another memory.  So bad that  I could see it on content from my seated position!

No sooner did I say this, and after watching " Birdman " with my wife ( she'd never seen it ) I switched the screen to the 2.35:1 screen, since I have friends coming tomorrow that have never seen " John Wick " ( the first one ). I test the focus with the focus pattern and it's dead nuts on ! The moral of the story is just check it and make sure for best results !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on June 26, 2017, 01:36:36 AM
It does seem quite random - I can go multiple films with it fine, and then it drifts.  I check every film out of habit now.  Wish I didn't have to, but hey ho.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on June 26, 2017, 06:35:08 AM
It does seem quite random - I can go multiple films with it fine, and then it drifts.  I check every film out of habit now.  Wish I didn't have to, but hey ho.

You guys are making me appreciate my A-lens even more. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on June 26, 2017, 08:06:42 AM
You guys are making me appreciate my A-lens even more. :)

I wish I had a longer throw so I could use one, but my throw distance presents distortion problems. Oh well.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on June 26, 2017, 08:12:14 AM
I've been doing some comparisons between using my ISCO and zooming.  It's so close that it's hard to declare a winner.

I watched Oblivion in 4k on Saturday.  Wow, it looked great.  I'm now back to using HIGH laser for HDR (plus a boost to dynamic range of +3 on the Panasonic).  It just looks so 'right' that it trumps the fan noise.   
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on June 26, 2017, 09:08:42 AM
I've been doing some comparisons between using my ISCO and zooming.  It's so close that it's hard to declare a winner.

I watched Oblivion in 4k on Saturday.  Wow, it looked great.  I'm now back to using HIGH laser for HDR (plus a boost to dynamic range of +3 on the Panasonic).  It just looks so 'right' that it trumps the fan noise.

I can't remember what type / size screen you have. Remind me please.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on June 26, 2017, 09:11:49 AM
I can't remember what type / size screen you have. Remind me please.

ST130 11' wide scope (132" x 54").
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on June 26, 2017, 09:32:59 AM
I can see wanting to use high laser then. I'm probably at the cutoff for mid laser at 118" wide ST130. I've thought about adding some sound proofing to my projector closet to eliminate the sound of high laser, but I got lazy !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on June 26, 2017, 09:42:48 AM
I can see wanting to use high laser then. I'm probably at the cutoff for mid laser at 118" wide ST130. I've thought about adding some sound proofing to my projector closet to eliminate the sound of high laser, but I got lazy !

If your projector is at the back of the room in a closet, how is that the projector is still too close to use a lens?  Is your room not very deep?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on June 26, 2017, 10:16:54 AM
Less than 14' throw. 13'10" I think. That's pretty short.
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16472897_10211901071463216_7746381642712035410_n.jpg?oh=27ed4a3b14ef30dd536dcb8b78b595f1&oe=59D616F2)

It works though. I'm not a big fan of A lenses, especially with the cost of really good ones ( and who wants a mediocre one ? ) ! 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on June 26, 2017, 10:18:34 AM
You guys are making me appreciate my A-lens even more. :)

I couldn't live with the knowledge that I was deliberately introducing artefacts into my image.  I have an ISCO III with which I experimented in the past with a permanent A-lens, but I could always see aliasing when squeezing the image.  Not too mention a loss of ANSI-CR and the odd bit of pin cushion and chromatic aberration...

Still hoping for a perfect solution one day! :D
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on June 26, 2017, 10:33:00 AM
I couldn't live with the knowledge that I was deliberately introducing artefacts into my image.  I have an ISCO III with which I experimented in the past with a permanent A-lens, but I could always see aliasing when squeezing the image.  Not too mention a loss of ANSI-CR and the odd bit of pin cushion and chromatic aberration...

Still hoping for a perfect solution one day! :D

How do you lose ANSI CR with a lens? Just when squeezing back into 16x9 or with 2.35:1 content as well?

Regardless, I will look for that (and compare further).  I appreciate your response.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on June 26, 2017, 12:40:22 PM
I've been doing some comparisons between using my ISCO and zooming.  It's so close that it's hard to declare a winner.

I watched Oblivion in 4k on Saturday.  Wow, it looked great.  I'm now back to using HIGH laser for HDR (plus a boost to dynamic range of +3 on the Panasonic).  It just looks so 'right' that it trumps the fan noise.

If that is without A-lens, then perhaps you could go with medium and the lens and not give up as much brightness.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on June 26, 2017, 12:42:33 PM
If that is without A-lens, then perhaps you could go with medium and the lens and not give up as much brightness.

That was with lens.  There's not much difference in light between zooming and using the lens. Both results in a slight loss of light.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on June 26, 2017, 12:44:15 PM
But even with 16x9 HDR material (e.g. Planet Earth II) it just doesn't look that impressive in mid laser.  Feels too dim and uncomfortable - like I am wearing sunglasses.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on June 26, 2017, 12:44:51 PM
I couldn't live with the knowledge that I was deliberately introducing artefacts into my image.  I have an ISCO III with which I experimented in the past with a permanent A-lens, but I could always see aliasing when squeezing the image.  Not too mention a loss of ANSI-CR and the odd bit of pin cushion and chromatic aberration...

Still hoping for a perfect solution one day! :D

Well you eliminate one of those problems by using a slide. You also gain brightness with scope, which helps with HDR. You get faster aspect ratio changes.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on June 26, 2017, 12:51:59 PM
That was with lens.  There's not much difference in light between zooming and using the lens. Both results in a slight loss of light.

I gain some brightness when I use my lens for scope. I do have a slide, so not using lens all the time.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on June 26, 2017, 01:01:20 PM
I couldn't live with the knowledge that I was deliberately introducing artefacts into my image.  I have an ISCO III with which I experimented in the past with a permanent A-lens, but I could always see aliasing when squeezing the image.  Not too mention a loss of ANSI-CR and the odd bit of pin cushion and chromatic aberration...

Still hoping for a perfect solution one day! :D

I've had 2 lenses over the years, and the positives were always canceled by the negatives ( the artifacts you mentioned, plus the hassle and expense ). Lens memory is simpler and cheaper - that's for sure.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on June 26, 2017, 01:02:51 PM
I gain some brightness when I use my lens for scope. I do have a slide, so not using lens all the time.

To be clear, I have a slide too (Cineslide) and don't have the lens in play with 16x9 (unless, like you, I'm Anamorphic B mode to quickly access a menu).   I would have thought having the lens in play with scope material would have been brighter than zooming out, but it doesn't feel like it is.   Anyway, there are pros on cons.  Like you mentioned, it is SO much faster to slide in the lens and since you don't change lens memories there is no need to re-focus every so often.  There may even be a plus to on/off contrast. 

That said, I think I prefer the image zoomed out.  Maybe because the ANSI is better?  (this is just a guess based off a recent post) but it's very close and I alternate between the two methods. 

I have a feeling that I will end going with the zoom method only so it will be easier to build a hush box (which will be complicated due to the exhaust being out the front).  High laser, while overkill on SDR, just looks too good on HDR.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on June 27, 2017, 01:33:27 AM
How do you lose ANSI CR with a lens?
 

Another "layer" in front of lens - that big chunk o' glass reflecting/scattering light perhaps?  The difference to me was very easy to see.   Although maybe I set my ISCO up poorly? eek!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on June 27, 2017, 07:56:08 AM
 

Another "layer" in front of lens - that big chunk o' glass reflecting/scattering light perhaps?  The difference to me was very easy to see.   Although maybe I set my ISCO up poorly? eek!

It's hard to put more glass in front of an already outstanding lens like the RS4500 has. It's another dust surface too. Anyway, with the Masciola test patterns being so fast to pull up, and the fact I don't change aspect ratios every day anyway, double checking focus for optimal picture sharpness is just part of the game, for the very best picture.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on June 27, 2017, 09:03:12 AM
To be clear, I have a slide too (Cineslide) and don't have the lens in play with 16x9 (unless, like you, I'm Anamorphic B mode to quickly access a menu).   I would have thought having the lens in play with scope material would have been brighter than zooming out, but it doesn't feel like it is.   Anyway, there are pros on cons.  Like you mentioned, it is SO much faster to slide in the lens and since you don't change lens memories there is no need to re-focus every so often.  There may even be a plus to on/off contrast. 

That said, I think I prefer the image zoomed out.  Maybe because the ANSI is better?  (this is just a guess based off a recent post) but it's very close and I alternate between the two methods. 

I have a feeling that I will end going with the zoom method only so it will be easier to build a hush box (which will be complicated due to the exhaust being out the front).  High laser, while overkill on SDR, just looks too good on HDR.

Hush box can be a lot smaller, without using an A-lens. I contemplated installing a hush box, but once I got my powered dead vent in place and a remote sensor installed for the HVAC, I am in pretty good shape, noise wise. Would I like it quieter, of course, but with medium power for HDR, it is perfectly fine. My screen is smaller and throw is shorter, so even though my screen gain is lower than yours, I still get quite a bit of brightness.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on June 28, 2017, 01:03:51 PM
It's certainly amazing how good Blu-rays can look on the RS4500, like " The Pacific ".

(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19620328_10213320979240023_2255507911430065978_o.jpg?oh=1fe7f643348eee9f45fa8c4adbf7be47&oe=59CECE45)

(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19466404_10213320980160046_5742261338336437074_o.jpg?oh=f96513be102fbe97ce26cc4c6105fde4&oe=59CA0503)

(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19477543_10213320981040068_679884677888886979_o.jpg?oh=94e032ecec5d51b05ec934c44cec8b70&oe=59DA0A08)

(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19441990_10213320982200097_6628508469878122275_o.jpg?oh=5dd61acefc0be06afb33bcfd0d2346c4&oe=59CA503B)

Despite using the cheapest Canon point 'n shoot camera, which makes getting a proper exposure difficult. The picture looks better still on the screen.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on July 06, 2017, 03:11:49 PM
Screen shots from " Life " -

(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19787264_10213415518163437_8972008615105236506_o.jpg?oh=3fead1968a2c1c0e135878ac3d01bceb&oe=5A0218DB)


(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19942986_10213415519363467_6912152671933067140_o.jpg?oh=db35201749de020a3f5225716b571b31&oe=59D0F591)


(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19575025_10213415522643549_2632174116161183159_o.jpg?oh=96fb1dff1c7ef5a8fce374e23a2d4f23&oe=5A0B76DB)


(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19942689_10213415529563722_4668796425814180546_o.jpg?oh=56a7c1a3ed6baada507936ebac2dd41c&oe=5A014F3F)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on July 14, 2017, 01:24:08 PM
Where did everyone go ? Too busy watching your RS4500's to post ?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on July 19, 2017, 11:58:11 AM
Has been quiet lately, but I think that kind of comes with this time of year. Plus this projector has a smaller owner list (as expected). Still enjoying mine on the bigger screen. Not perfect, but more than satisfying!!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on July 19, 2017, 12:53:25 PM
So if anyone is having lip sync issues with their RS4500 with HDTV ( I am ), it seems that turning on the low lag " game mode " more or less corrects it. Worth a try, since it doesn't appear to be correctable using audio delay in my receiver. What I need is a " video delay " adjustment.   
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on July 19, 2017, 11:32:42 PM
The audio visual delay on the Z1 is longer than it was on my Sony 1000, so I ended up remeasuring.  I use different delays depending on the source (eg DVD vs Blu vs UHD vs Amazon Fire vs Shield and so on) and also the audio codec as some come through with different delays.

It's actually a real pain that manufacturers don't agree on some way to resolve this, eg all devices should be 0 latency on audio AND visual feeds, but they aren't.

I use a Syncheck3 to measure my lipsync, but that's no longer available.  The Sync-One2 is the next best thing:

http://www.sync-one2.co.uk/
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on July 20, 2017, 07:09:41 AM
The audio visual delay on the Z1 is longer than it was on my Sony 1000, so I ended up remeasuring.  I use different delays depending on the source (eg DVD vs Blu vs UHD vs Amazon Fire vs Shield and so on) and also the audio codec as some come through with different delays.

It's actually a real pain that manufacturers don't agree on some way to resolve this, eg all devices should be 0 latency on audio AND visual feeds, but they aren't.

I use a Syncheck3 to measure my lipsync, but that's no longer available.  The Sync-One2 is the next best thing:

http://www.sync-one2.co.uk/

I like that, and it would be interesting to use one, but since my only lip sync problem involves cable TV ( none at all with Blu-ray / 4K Blu-ray ), I'm wondering how I would get a test signal to work ? I'd need a " Sync - One2 test signal channel " on AT & T U Verse cable TV.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on July 20, 2017, 09:08:54 AM
Yeah, TV is a pain... I typically just put up a 24 hour news service and dial it in by hand while watching the newsreader's lips...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on July 24, 2017, 06:31:48 AM
New firmware!

http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-z1_rs4500/

Improvement of display problem at pixel adjustment
Improvement of image quality at 12bit input
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on July 24, 2017, 07:54:28 AM
New firmware!

http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-z1_rs4500/

Improvement of display problem at pixel adjustment
Improvement of image quality at 12bit input

I guess I know what I'm doing tonight ! " Improvement of display problem at pixel adjustment " - not sure what that is, but any and all improvements are always welcome !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on July 26, 2017, 06:17:34 AM
So if anyone is having lip sync issues with their RS4500 with HDTV ( I am ), it seems that turning on the low lag " game mode " more or less corrects it. Worth a try, since it doesn't appear to be correctable using audio delay in my receiver. What I need is a " video delay " adjustment.

Thanks for this, Craig, looking forward to trying it as it's been driving me nuts!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on July 26, 2017, 06:37:14 AM
It's been a while since I've been on the forum so I just thought I'd share my most recent thoughts on the RS4500:

I think it's just incredible that one can have the experience I've been enjoying in their own home.  I discovered home theater in 1993 and when my wife and I married in 1994 we told all our guests that we were saving up for a large rear projection TV.  Most of our guests jumped on this idea and we started our home theater with the TV and a laser disc player. 

A couple years later we were fortunate enough to move out of our apartment into a house and had a dedicated room in the basement for our theater.  In 1997 we got our first projector - a Runco 980 CRT with an 96" wide screen (slightly larger than what it probably should have been for optimal viewing quality but we loved it).   Along with some decent speakers and electronics it was our first big 'investment' in home theater.   

That Runco came with us when we moved 7 years later and became my first 'HD' projector when HDDVD and Bluray came on the scene in 2005.   

About a year or so later I discovered CIH and went digital with JVCs splash entry into home theater - the RS1.  That with a high gain 11 foot wide 2.35:1 screen changed my home theater life forever!

I became obsessed with the hobby and it wasn't long before I invested heavily into a Sim2 C3X1080 (3 chip DLP).  I also bought an ISCO3 and a Cineslide. I had this setup for a blissful 10 years before replacing the Sim2 with the RS4500.

While there is no doubt a different 'look' to the RS4500 compared to the Sim2 (which I still think looks very very good with its quality of color and ANSI contrast) the RS4500 has taken my experience to a level that I never thought would be possible.  Sometimes I just giggle at how good the picture is and every day I think that I am a VERY lucky man.

For the past week I've been ripping the remaining discs in my Bluray collection.   I have close to 40 terrabytes on my movie server and not counting music videos or TV shows, I am close to 1600 titles.

Life is good, very very good.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on July 26, 2017, 07:46:28 AM
It's been a while since I've been on the forum so I just thought I'd share my most recent thoughts on the RS4500:

I think it's just incredible that one can have the experience I've been enjoying in their own home.  I discovered home theater in 1993 and when my wife and I married in 1994 we told all our guests that we were saving up for a large rear projection TV.  Most of our guests jumped on this idea and we started our home theater with the TV and a laser disc player. 

A couple years later we were fortunate enough to move out of our apartment into a house and had a dedicated room in the basement for our theater.  In 1997 we got our first projector - a Runco 980 CRT with an 96" wide screen (slightly larger than what it probably should have been for optimal viewing quality but we loved it).   Along with some decent speakers and electronics it was our first big 'investment' in home theater.   

That Runco came with us when we moved 7 years later and became my first 'HD' projector when HDDVD and Bluray came on the scene in 2005.   

About a year or so later I discovered CIH and went digital with JVCs splash entry into home theater - the RS1.  That with a high gain 11 foot wide 2.35:1 screen changed my home theater life forever!

I became obsessed with the hobby and it wasn't long before I invested heavily into a Sim2 C3X1080 (3 chip DLP).  I also bought an ISCO3 and a Cineslide. I had this setup for a blissful 10 years before replacing the Sim2 with the RS4500.

While there is no doubt a different 'look' to the RS4500 compared to the Sim2 (which I still think looks very very good with its quality of color and ANSI contrast) the RS4500 has taken my experience to a level that I never thought would be possible.  Sometimes I just giggle at how good the picture is and every day I think that I am a VERY lucky man.

For the past week I've been ripping the remaining discs in my Bluray collection.   I have close to 40 terrabytes on my movie server and not counting music videos or TV shows, I am close to 1600 titles.

Life is good, very very good.

Thanks for sharing that. I’ve been a home theater owner and enthusiast ever since I got a free electric screen off a construction job site in 2002 ! That electric screen got me interested in building my own home theater. My first real home theater projector was an NEC HT1000 DLP projector, back in 2003. Since then, I’ve owned an Optoma H79 projector, a Digital Projection dVision 1080p projector ( both bought from AV Science before I came to work here as a salesman ), a Sim Lumis Host, a Sony VW 600ES, a JVC RS600, and now a JVC RS4500. I too had my Lumis for a long time ( in this hobby's time frame anyway ) - 7 1/2 years. I agree that we are very lucky to be able to own a projector as amazing a the RS4500. I have the best projector I've ever owned, my theater room is the best it's ever been, and my audio is the best it's ever been. And I'm up to 49 4K Blu-rays which look ( and sound ) amazing ! Life is good !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 02, 2017, 03:11:15 PM
So I decided to watch the dynamic iris torture test in the basement bar scene ( at about 1 hour 20 minutes in ) in the Blu-ray Inglorious Basterds - the mode 2 dimming is now completely invisible. It's working outstanding ! At least on my projector. I could see the iris trip up previously , and someone has said on another forum -

" Here's a stress test you can put it through: the bar scene in Inglorious Basterds. I remember whenever the camera angle changed during the conversation, the iris would pump to the point of being so disturbing that I had to turn it off on my RS400. Would be interesting to hear how the RS4500 handles it. ".

I'm sending the Blu-ray upscaled to 4K from my panasonic UB900.

I decided to run this test scene since I finished watching " Sicario " last night on 4K with friends, and I realized I hadn't noticed the dynamic dimming trip up once - even a tiny bit. More testing this week ( otherwise known as movie watching ) !! 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 02, 2017, 03:14:04 PM
Screen shots from the Blu-ray " Spy " -

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20615741_10213719084352402_107907418254356851_o.jpg?oh=3f645a2d95a3f0187db5364ea6ac97a8&oe=5A31D097)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20545202_10213719084832414_4870793853165229666_o.jpg?oh=8e30d7e9fd4fafc2262341e78b667225&oe=5A380485)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20507218_10213719087952492_4748006666084334563_o.jpg?oh=9f39495fb4ee18c87c75cf78ebad77f0&oe=59F44140)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20507598_10213719088512506_5667266990820404074_o.jpg?oh=84c75e002ac21352b6831a28cfb63e7f&oe=5A0369A4)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 02, 2017, 03:15:56 PM
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20615913_10213719090232549_5711515581170745157_o.jpg?oh=04cc87c32a62a590897f52a36136d0b4&oe=59EBE8F4)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20626787_10213719092112596_4450491808226096305_o.jpg?oh=bea54d5360467e6629186982683c653c&oe=5A2C8EC4)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20616893_10213719093472630_6223061248438414140_o.jpg?oh=0558cad9070fd3cd2aeda50d265a3d54&oe=5A36493D)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20506913_10213719096072695_6672731546834862994_o.jpg?oh=f4f257a5091cb0fa91112b1eb7ead980&oe=5A2F5210)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 10, 2017, 04:03:34 PM
I'm loving the new firmware ! I'm also loving my new Canon Powershot G7 X Mark II camera !

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20689741_10213790145128877_9208332070140556910_o.jpg?oh=f7ddee60b25565ab2926ab0a9c7a4d8e&oe=5A2F3DDC)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20689514_10213790146488911_1468880999749092549_o.jpg?oh=c6cfdbb192e4181c77afb43a326279bd&oe=59F6C315)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20645391_10213790147808944_6968334187894985198_o.jpg?oh=d0ca080871e02dfe3e68e1fa14a1e74c&oe=5A2BFAFB)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20729078_10213790149208979_478636295128415868_o.jpg?oh=a2358eec80b66f0e2e393e928b55fbc6&oe=5A265ED1)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 10, 2017, 04:05:12 PM
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20785689_10213790150329007_5423858134828322043_o.jpg?oh=727fb5e6fc7d2b7bfda3c8cbc1e62973&oe=5A379FEB)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20729106_10213790150969023_5839789154660174035_o.jpg?oh=cb4699983f07e96c9c8036aed2deb05e&oe=5A277F44)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20689560_10213790152169053_8256650360063482824_o.jpg?oh=e276b45231c415410aff014ee196904d&oe=59F6A6C1)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20645326_10213790154169103_2202425688864616415_o.jpg?oh=37dea926e82ed45132383df138490e83&oe=59F2D0E5)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 10, 2017, 04:06:48 PM
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20690131_10213790154489111_464434009455025195_o.jpg?oh=264f83c1003778346fdf707d349397c2&oe=59F8CA5E)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20690281_10213790154809119_5727541849179235571_o.jpg?oh=b0125f2a807d21b92c6c067e67948bfa&oe=5A3871ED)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20785849_10213790155209129_7052192923642264644_o.jpg?oh=4cde65d95b5ffa1366bba404dff38457&oe=5A2C5A47)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20746265_10213790155649140_8325942007072961753_o.jpg?oh=5e7d931d71a2200321ff5a56bf03d729&oe=5A2F01D4)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on August 10, 2017, 04:29:06 PM
Nice shots!  Must be a very good camera.  What movie is that, Craig?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 10, 2017, 06:23:26 PM
Nice shots!  Must be a very good camera.  What movie is that, Craig?

The Martian - I really like this film. The camera is finally able to shoot closer to what I see on the screen. I have wanted a decent camera for awhile - so far color me impressed ( with both the Canon and the latest RS4500 firmware ) !!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: bmoney on August 11, 2017, 04:48:43 PM
slightly OT but i went to the drivein the other night...and the picture was pretty darn good especially considering the throw distance was a couple hundred feet and the screen was at least 150' wide 2.35

curious to the PJ

btw saw emoji's (terrible)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on August 14, 2017, 09:29:13 AM
slightly OT but i went to the drivein the other night...and the picture was pretty darn good especially considering the throw distance was a couple hundred feet and the screen was at least 150' wide 2.35

curious to the PJ

btw saw emoji's (terrible)

We no longer have any drive in theaters around me. Was driving through Indiana (near Evansville) last week and drove past a still active drive in theater.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Tom Bley on August 14, 2017, 09:51:02 AM
Actually have an outdoor theater in my home town of McHenry, IL.  A few years ago the owner had started a Kickstarter campaign to raise money for a new digital projector but, didn't get near the 130k that he needed.  He actually ended up winning one through Honda!

Good read.  8)

 http://www.nwherald.com/2013/09/14/mchenry-outdoor-theater-wins-digital-projector/a6wd9x/ (http://www.nwherald.com/2013/09/14/mchenry-outdoor-theater-wins-digital-projector/a6wd9x/)

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on August 15, 2017, 11:46:25 AM
Actually have an outdoor theater in my home town of McHenry, IL.  A few years ago the owner had started a Kickstarter campaign to raise money for a new digital projector but, didn't get near the 130k that he needed.  He actually ended up winning one through Honda!

Good read.  8)

 http://www.nwherald.com/2013/09/14/mchenry-outdoor-theater-wins-digital-projector/a6wd9x/ (http://www.nwherald.com/2013/09/14/mchenry-outdoor-theater-wins-digital-projector/a6wd9x/)

That is a neat story. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 28, 2017, 08:37:30 AM
Alien : Covenant looked crazy good on 4K Blu-ray last night !

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21125578_10213944100457664_2646521581445217518_o.jpg?oh=6be2a835dc998616a5a3d0114ebac406&oe=5A5F3C41)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21083533_10213944103577742_6017916317808001142_o.jpg?oh=612944eafe52503ddbe30805a2a6e48f&oe=5A58E999)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21083024_10213944104777772_5304752486105207178_o.jpg?oh=031ee6ea7d0bea8080c9149bc2c1d892&oe=5A5AC69F)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21083509_10213944115778047_9098144480095774437_o.jpg?oh=9b9c54923a4883ce9a61c4183133f48f&oe=5A60D1F6)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21083741_10213944116778072_2631492488839095903_o.jpg?oh=b5af74cd936d62578628e4539b10e787&oe=5A295238)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 28, 2017, 07:08:24 PM
Kingsman : The Secret Service looked damn good too -

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21125355_10213947551463937_9066451323570879356_o.jpg?oh=be0434de32094c8cf433f70ba4f138a4&oe=5A255DB4)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21167152_10213947556904073_528154886919025179_o.jpg?oh=6d5060dc0000db496e3586dcda737b78&oe=5A16E74B)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21167475_10213947557624091_6727153321679780684_o.jpg?oh=7960a1b6fc4bc4cdda2dafe82273f324&oe=5A5A0CD8)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21122411_10213947558144104_5429369776791552530_o.jpg?oh=9fd8ea2df302c071fef2c02c6cc231d1&oe=5A58A062)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 28, 2017, 07:10:14 PM
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21122596_10213947559704143_8615567879179376159_o.jpg?oh=15b6917063c197a85b9114a1f072dfe7&oe=5A1C816F)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21122344_10213947561264182_8687969298498637923_o.jpg?oh=e50ff87b0447d65a6f1f474a71c47045&oe=5A1624D9)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21246514_10213947562784220_1288227032289613770_o.jpg?oh=9e75297a4c42d9999b830cae144f8db9&oe=5A28D78E)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21122395_10213947563704243_9156022457417107510_o.jpg?oh=486bd5afeacdfbaba37b89058e377742&oe=5A15146C)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 28, 2017, 07:11:44 PM
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21200776_10213947565024276_7663733598767983142_o.jpg?oh=18c3a844c5942062acba51051141f36f&oe=5A299FC0)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21125674_10213947565744294_4990095133716343426_o.jpg?oh=b3e3b7212b6c6439bb9459832df2b58a&oe=5A123C4F)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21167241_10213947567104328_5029554016234875432_o.jpg?oh=48b0469c522f94da46ec814b2983b2cc&oe=5A19225C)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21167338_10213947570024401_5097325539121368237_o.jpg?oh=3ad6e3b6223a1f1ebc26527a06f87bf2&oe=5A5BD602)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 29, 2017, 10:09:40 AM
A few screen shots from Jack Reacher : Never Go Back, on 4K Blu-ray -

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21167363_10213952954719015_4800042120794834599_o.jpg?oh=7aacaf5dcac357816729147360e8615b&oe=5A146484)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21199745_10213952955639038_137856938051716708_o.jpg?oh=8efdb2dd594072313c73a316831035ca&oe=5A5FF9AB)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21122302_10213952956839068_6534863297043030012_o.jpg?oh=04ab22fcfd9993b609cc2077251e1329&oe=5A5AE00C)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 29, 2017, 10:10:51 AM
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21125358_10213952957439083_6198006187765347557_o.jpg?oh=dbcf17a761b3253485b3098ebe3205f3&oe=5A13FF40)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21167117_10213952958999122_5058423001000346904_o.jpg?oh=d1a36a7cda18c910ec4b97189c5983a4&oe=5A2D7D83)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21122348_10213952959599137_2778853931670863555_o.jpg?oh=6a346d244071b7604027d5408df92152&oe=5A127FDD)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 30, 2017, 03:01:27 PM
The Fifth Element looks impressive on 4K UHD Blu-ray !

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21125714_10213962860166645_7674466741585125440_o.jpg?oh=c9fbec2abc54bf116d1a2328191a4664&oe=5A60F1D1)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21125355_10213962861486678_3319529308723607563_o.jpg?oh=af57149be6cab57c004c475b110ffa68&oe=5A55B5D1)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21167983_10213962862286698_2955149962979899698_o.jpg?oh=bc6c35dfb3fd17585bebe7f963fe8349&oe=5A5C9FC8)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21273038_10213962863006716_2374615834434866781_o.jpg?oh=c8035f9474a911a99650738d1ca3b2fd&oe=5A55A459)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 30, 2017, 03:02:36 PM
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21248169_10213962864846762_643240272574375872_o.jpg?oh=c0eecb3c536c76fc028891a6b66b6f72&oe=5A6021A0)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21246460_10213962866526804_3589662037935111099_o.jpg?oh=5fb0deb15799f2d67b911c206b402bd8&oe=5A18AC12)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21125364_10213962868806861_172358831906197681_o.jpg?oh=df66569694df690982f1518ea074c08e&oe=5A59528B)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21167669_10213962870046892_8614983554238521950_o.jpg?oh=620b3b330685af7723e06aa39be79b53&oe=5A174559)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 30, 2017, 03:04:42 PM
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21167418_10213962871846937_4850566348065509488_o.jpg?oh=a0c769c89d181fa6a95d6c1de20cab76&oe=5A5F484B)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21167147_10213962874286998_1963622395674611626_o.jpg?oh=f80ae4c05fb3f4573e2ab923111eb471&oe=5A221CA2)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21199806_10213962876047042_6996053005929820616_o.jpg?oh=eea5579c978dc16af41fa89d857355d0&oe=5A182286)

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on August 31, 2017, 08:53:52 AM
You are making good use of that new camera. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on August 31, 2017, 09:49:13 AM
You are making good use of that new camera. :)

You can't take decent screen shots with an iphone - they just don't match what I see on the screen ! the new camera does represent what I see. I'll bring the camera to Cedia !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 02, 2017, 09:06:01 AM
Speaking of screen shots -

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21246644_10213984161179157_3663902083055193402_o.jpg?oh=7a9d420f0169d1dc360170b3f979d770&oe=5A1F171F)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21272678_10213984161979177_9190947214385833541_o.jpg?oh=e99b79d12031b661dd911d9f5705d525&oe=5A14661A)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21316350_10213984162459189_8859653977132656671_o.jpg?oh=8219c3114639c32c5e23548bb0d966ac&oe=5A5ADE30)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21199657_10213984170139381_2595369753154252810_o.jpg?oh=b738560c3aca0285aa1e26071ac729d2&oe=5A18549E)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 05, 2017, 12:24:38 PM
Some 4K eye candy -

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21369012_10214019274016956_9190413213671535253_o.jpg?oh=fa724b826b18304bffaaeae8cfc74f9e&oe=5A5FDE5F)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21368597_10214019276257012_8125977617932571634_o.jpg?oh=66ce1448cf7ea7008fc20537aa15b61a&oe=5A4F2E1B)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21415038_10214019277497043_1414742455209853202_o.jpg?oh=0836d6558c8cc88331e2b1a4cd10d864&oe=5A503A4F)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21273443_10214019278817076_4469550976418269048_o.jpg?oh=f529368cb72aa92135d61804440a9cda&oe=5A56D354)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 05, 2017, 12:26:59 PM
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21367044_10214019279897103_3528754618820973774_o.jpg?oh=ccd496967023b54ffa02ed16b4a35e0e&oe=5A5584FE)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21316126_10214019283937204_7432718971251336967_o.jpg?oh=a7b3b1d70ac7d455e8d8442bb5a3349c&oe=5A5B0905)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21316232_10214019286737274_8491705394042864876_o.jpg?oh=d5ef35030cfdfa69f76dd863c6df1dc9&oe=5A58DF1A)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21316261_10214019294977480_7877647283987716771_o.jpg?oh=02becc605013e2614aefd875300e5eef&oe=5A58118B)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 05, 2017, 12:29:04 PM
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21316295_10214019296057507_4717643150549900716_o.jpg?oh=c16d7589a7a1d4464ed81f306fde1f2a&oe=5A1F6343)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21414631_10214019297897553_2068846449039106823_o.jpg?oh=a4ef3d836ff441112a304568af947d23&oe=5A4DBEDB)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21368788_10214019302017656_1944990877990091457_o.jpg?oh=f429dfadc6dd6a344fbd7565cf881c79&oe=5A5904B6)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21316142_10214019302697673_7608797893654060293_o.jpg?oh=7ef98e6052543facb8356b5ab831cc88&oe=5A1AE8C5)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 10, 2017, 01:18:10 PM
The RS4500 remains in the JVC line unchanged ( other than ongoing firmware updates for improved performance ).

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21430632_10214061664676696_5764466169306819683_n.jpg?oh=954dd2516f1bb945feec1adc026cf7de&oe=5A53B8D5)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21371361_10214061665556718_7357818838229490279_n.jpg?oh=5e3c5e52462ea3560bdda6c7823cda5f&oe=5A1476D0)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21462517_10214061666636745_7234785881834827581_n.jpg?oh=95f2f45cc1f871a59a2df9b46d667f31&oe=5A15A448)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21430396_10214061668956803_5277164511308778463_n.jpg?oh=e961b18db0b6c6ce8ff701780783961c&oe=5A1D1F24)

JVC was showing it on a 16' wide x 9' tall StudioTek 130 G3 screen.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on September 13, 2017, 10:04:13 AM
Chadb calibrated my RS4500 yesterday. I am using medium power and with the manual iris set to -7. That is giving me 22,000:1 contrast with dynamic dimming turned off. Picture looks great. Saw nothing at CEDIA that I would want to trade this projector for.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 14, 2017, 11:12:58 AM
A few screen shots from yesterday -

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21743809_10214089525493199_2478542831986166230_o.jpg?oh=b89e50f38517545ebef049e49fd6db3a&oe=5A45D777)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21740972_10214089526373221_4146084348088135570_o.jpg?oh=a8de4d973f60f257b6b629c55ab5fa16&oe=5A15ADD3)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21728687_10214089526893234_6699998676849270120_o.jpg?oh=88eb3e0935c0abd623c8913750131d8f&oe=5A4273B0)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21741300_10214089527893259_1049129777710543327_o.jpg?oh=dd4dabbad7d3673ec42161ff38f18631&oe=5A4BFFF8)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21731416_10214089534373421_5047111333855469323_o.jpg?oh=407fc0829a4b423d37dba11da32bd05a&oe=5A505FBD)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 14, 2017, 11:14:02 AM
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21740805_10214089536893484_6160793695951386407_o.jpg?oh=5337de6b86134eae085328b31e54136e&oe=5A5F8189)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21762828_10214089537813507_3863480351737698664_o.jpg?oh=07220b683ddbef0e820090bc67ac0c3b&oe=5A50A1EC)

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21765802_10214089538333520_7804319337583361452_o.jpg?oh=94a02d6dfda0b64857ecf2b0ad996b3b&oe=5A46DFA0)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on September 14, 2017, 11:38:05 AM
I went and saw a demo of the new Sony $25K laser projector last night.  It was stunning in a lot of ways.  Dynamic range seemed fantastic so I cannot wait to see the RS4500.

However I also saw significant banding on videos like Planet Earth II, particular in the sky.  Does the RS4500 do this?  Not sure if it is encoded in the Blu-Ray or not.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 14, 2017, 12:47:59 PM
I went and saw a demo of the new Sony $25K laser projector last night.  It was stunning in a lot of ways.  Dynamic range seemed fantastic so I cannot wait to see the RS4500.

However I also saw significant banding on videos like Planet Earth II, particular in the sky.  Does the RS4500 do this?  Not sure if it is encoded in the Blu-Ray or not.

I haven't seen banding except in what I would consider inferior source material ( HDTV from AT & T / U verse ).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on September 14, 2017, 01:17:48 PM
I haven't seen banding except in what I would consider inferior source material ( HDTV from AT & T / U verse ).

Good to know.  If that banding isn't in the source material/player then that is a show stopper for the Sony.  It was pretty obvious and not okay for a $25k projector.  Otherwise I was blown away.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Kris Deering on September 14, 2017, 04:28:47 PM
Not 100% sure on this but I could swear that Sony told me their panel drivers are limited to 10 bit. The JVC 5 and 6 series and the 4500 are 12 bit end to end, so banding is rare and typically always an encode issue with the software you're viewing (Lionsgate BD titles are notorious for this).
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: jetsen on September 21, 2017, 09:18:06 AM
Anyone interested in an almost brand new Z1 ;) I am switching the demo unit for a new Sony VW760 lazer.

???? Euros and the Z1 is yours :) :)

Drop me a mail.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on September 21, 2017, 10:18:33 AM
Not 100% sure on this but I could swear that Sony told me their panel drivers are limited to 10 bit. The JVC 5 and 6 series and the 4500 are 12 bit end to end, so banding is rare and typically always an encode issue with the software you're viewing (Lionsgate BD titles are notorious for this).

This is interesting to hear.  A few people are saying Dolby Vision is in the works for the 885ES. Supposedly Sony confirmed the hardware inside is powerful enough to process a DV chain. It just needs to be worked out from a software point of view. How does Sony plan on implementing DV properly if the video processing chain and panel driver is limited to 10 bit?  From what I understand, DV is 12 bit. I've heard the panel itself is a true 12 bit panel, but what good is that if everything before it bottlenecks the video to 10 bit or lower. Supposedly on the cheaper 4K units the video processing is limited to 8 bit with a 4K60 10bit 4:2:0 input and several reports are saying very bad banding occurs from Sony cutting off two bits from the input signal.

This isn't too much of a big deal for UHD bluray as only a few titles are 60p, but people hoping to game on one of the first relatively cheap 4K projectors are very upset about the news. Most hardware players also force 4K60 output for Netflix so I can see tbis as a potential issue for those hoping for clean HDR playback from Netflix.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on September 21, 2017, 10:36:09 AM
Not sure what Sony has up their sleeve for DV, but it will be interesting to here if they can actually do this and then we will have to see if it is an actual improvement in HDR or just being able to put DV on the spec sheet. I don't know that DV for projectors is going to mean very much.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 25, 2017, 10:18:30 PM
Pretty amazing how good some Blu-rays look on the RS4500. Even 8 year old titles -

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21992860_10214188695532388_1322420045134018489_o.jpg?oh=6d49c8786bb0e44945ae69e63b8f256a&oe=5A855CF2)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21992836_10214188697172429_4677951331643424559_o.jpg?oh=afc9ebb64a0b965a6fb29b539232e181&oe=5A40C23C)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21768777_10214189680837020_4115326336027009543_o.jpg?oh=20c41f981eb1b27754684e83d7220355&oe=5A41972E)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21950711_10214188700092502_8771348838498621231_o.jpg?oh=f57fefccd076ab762bac2bfbcc8ccce7&oe=5A3CC190)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22042102_10214188700932523_1406181259432340938_o.jpg?oh=7477da315ace6f4bc09aefdbcdbcd170&oe=5A57F57A)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 25, 2017, 10:20:23 PM
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21993057_10214188701412535_6123939408394646558_o.jpg?oh=bb1753aef9c4051ead2a157c2d916fa5&oe=5A538C46)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21951041_10214188702012550_2744224879730400959_o.jpg?oh=22b959f2248f94ee43ee2a30efd5679e&oe=5A53E09A)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21994384_10214188702852571_8143640786646958391_o.jpg?oh=cf2fb5b00e95bb4f1757f35c4db89414&oe=5A3FC121)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21994007_10214188704452611_2479181116765940406_o.jpg?oh=475ff436278b8e575f49c94bae686037&oe=5A507C38)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21950890_10214188705532638_4084376085925347138_o.jpg?oh=0b5b6e0b5ea061503406fed592af8a58&oe=5A4A623D)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 25, 2017, 10:21:40 PM
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22048161_10214188707012675_2385467344079124242_o.jpg?oh=358dc7f10423c4af88c716c855410086&oe=5A47D685)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21768722_10214188709972749_3461902664444665665_o.jpg?oh=dd425a0a4bfdd0c910ac2182d1da5454&oe=5A882ED0)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21768721_10214188713012825_5545240787042152824_o.jpg?oh=7770261eebb966158fa433cba572707d&oe=5A44948F)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on September 26, 2017, 01:12:41 PM
Nice shots, Craig - what movie is that, btw?

But you're doing the RS4500 to suggest that 'even 8 year old titles' look good.  You can go much further back than that and have your jaw hit the floor.  Try the restored version of Lawrence of Arabia (if not the Blu-ray, the UHD version on Amazon), restored version of Spartacus... or Vertigo.  These are all crazy detailed and look stunning on this projector!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 26, 2017, 02:40:15 PM
Nice shots, Craig - what movie is that, btw?

But you're doing the RS4500 to suggest that 'even 8 year old titles' look good.  You can go much further back than that and have your jaw hit the floor.  Try the restored version of Lawrence of Arabia (if not the Blu-ray, the UHD version on Amazon), restored version of Spartacus... or Vertigo.  These are all crazy detailed and look stunning on this projector!

It's " Knowing " - http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Knowing-Blu-ray/5350/

I'm waiting for Lawrence of Arabia on 4K UHD Blu-ray. Hurry up Sony !!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 27, 2017, 01:10:52 PM
I re - visited one of my favorite movies last night - " Lone Survivor " on 4K UHD Blu-ray -

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22041900_10214203707347674_5724652728372888906_o.jpg?oh=183cd53a92bf6e6b29498a56835d11cb&oe=5A802AF9)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22047791_10214203708827711_9119125558981614930_o.jpg?oh=3a965890886aaf11563923b5a1ddbe30&oe=5A3F0C69)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22047696_10214203710307748_2463955277944390428_o.jpg?oh=a64b5e6249d18852dc2e00120b085afa&oe=5A88981F)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22096058_10214203711307773_7794506976216477871_o.jpg?oh=efc2fc5ff18dede83f11abbae196eb78&oe=5A7FE043)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22047831_10214203713347824_6363080821300256907_o.jpg?oh=9de4654c6cd448cb9e8206d296f800e3&oe=5A471D1C)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 27, 2017, 01:12:44 PM
Great movie, and a great looking disc !

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21994226_10214203716467902_470087732487191589_o.jpg?oh=ce37d737985702ed3be7dc8e5f5eef9c&oe=5A3CDE14)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22042067_10214203721148019_4567353186817638422_o.jpg?oh=c2a5289ecce8abba77abc0e729801d4b&oe=5A4AA2CC)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22047695_10214203722588055_4273066919056049701_o.jpg?oh=536942cd8fe11a4a7c4112401ae5635e&oe=5A50F2F6)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22042246_10214203723468077_9169980666646561297_o.jpg?oh=acddf13d8814c2f1245292800ca7de29&oe=5A843255)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21994168_10214203725588130_5938198812294558144_o.jpg?oh=57b0f210407a1209ab940f8d1103c0bf&oe=5A44949C)


Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 27, 2017, 01:14:25 PM
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21993040_10214203731908288_2959999351877796494_o.jpg?oh=5cc3c4489c5edfdbcfb7e48159f030fc&oe=5A51500B)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21992811_10214203733788335_4314365527127477374_o.jpg?oh=cccc91d98c85d808a5febebb8441d4ae&oe=5A3B9DDD)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22051254_10214203735188370_793365115728040821_o.jpg?oh=4ddc69b2ddd5ff37d7f3b731018de2ae&oe=5A458E5E)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21994462_10214203736348399_4032265996590246862_o.jpg?oh=70a2b2f94765de8a75189fec1ba22777&oe=5A5115AD)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22042116_10214203737108418_1446740783898582012_o.jpg?oh=84df32ae563d611e7e00c992131e4e3b&oe=5A4B1438)

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 27, 2017, 01:15:27 PM
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21994233_10214203743028566_7358112571010010187_o.jpg?oh=4fd542c6f3dc3a0ef1c54f8a2e1e27ea&oe=5A4F3B10)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22041936_10214203745308623_595117200189944468_o.jpg?oh=ea8b5635d4897c56538112507fb4452d&oe=5A3F23B1)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22041956_10214203746108643_5157135133634825055_o.jpg?oh=0562a2d080aab7206ef10526db5b1e66&oe=5A57B177)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 29, 2017, 11:27:30 AM
Screen shots of " Everest " on 4K UHd Blu-ray -

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21994200_10214211005090113_2559071393724598411_o.jpg?oh=a858276324af808f53105d7a7ca706aa&oe=5A832F2E)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21994185_10214211005290118_8406040548942450265_o.jpg?oh=35bf1433e6b3ea9d9d8ef24fe0fd3cc4&oe=5A848DC8)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22135488_10214211006770155_739618691976452863_o.jpg?oh=3ddb2832f723101e6c57147811c51a4a&oe=5A807E18)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21994217_10214211007650177_6355818693318150958_o.jpg?oh=63f7ac01b9a74d4fb913356c79ff2319&oe=5A7FD486)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22048174_10214211009490223_3716341938327550077_o.jpg?oh=d8ac40401c0c42262e4ea24a9bb1db46&oe=5A3EED59)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 29, 2017, 11:29:41 AM
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22048182_10214211049491223_5729252943485713003_o.jpg?oh=07b2b86f84808bf9e459dcf1befdadbf&oe=5A438E83)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22042314_10214211050691253_2796148520841567587_o.jpg?oh=445072b277c8f2dcda9c1375437e20fa&oe=5A54B0AB)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22042277_10214211055691378_130686973841085358_o.jpg?oh=81879e325817997167d404507503ddc2&oe=5A3BD438)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22047730_10214211060571500_4984090804591698424_o.jpg?oh=f4dc8febc97295a593a96ebab6c64788&oe=5A404060)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22051014_10214211061811531_2195076084947751090_o.jpg?oh=33d2d074b701f1c928ed0a143b685f4e&oe=5A4A9210)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 29, 2017, 11:31:36 AM
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21994391_10214211062771555_3577104754477888242_o.jpg?oh=cbe1e5e69f9ea9e932f377b478a7c2ca&oe=5A4CB607)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21994462_10214211063371570_4337948659291382140_o.jpg?oh=88f0264dcbb2891a0ac3d7b968294fc1&oe=5A5287B2)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21994028_10214211064051587_4303803775137400611_o.jpg?oh=1910216dfd03f41f6d687fb9c544d796&oe=5A3B9304)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22048075_10214211065091613_1022376574803764575_o.jpg?oh=a867d87e3cd5bab9536ef673f7c5f5fb&oe=5A83B9D9)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22048142_10214211067291668_4168547081550015533_o.jpg?oh=84b989506e549ec2f7a7cb80689fba0d&oe=5A50726A)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on September 29, 2017, 11:32:23 AM
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22047916_10214211069491723_5871305611246612362_o.jpg?oh=4ddc614913e43f88bc4f00cf2f813dca&oe=5A84DC0A)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22048056_10214211071451772_5007453194965261465_o.jpg?oh=a8b0fbc908f77bf617cfd68b5e56e358&oe=5A463F7B)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 10, 2017, 11:42:19 AM
Wonder Woman 4K Blu-ray screen shots. Nice to see this was shot on 35mm film. It definitely has a film look to it -

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22424441_10214309119422910_7836786432547425596_o.jpg?oh=5ff004b1ef8b002169e55456d9e04b50&oe=5A428713)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22339372_10214309121022950_1058412457665960884_o.jpg?oh=8e65a17f37b9b71de1b6709f4669941c&oe=5A445281)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22339061_10214309121902972_8198125618837153746_o.jpg?oh=724bf51e12e3f5d95f8b488a2cf53698&oe=5A73572D)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22339097_10214309123583014_5953236885387277351_o.jpg?oh=e22122935eb8d66fc31458e04082df1f&oe=5A81C1FE)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22291199_10214309124303032_1945229700521625697_o.jpg?oh=028328c59d18bc5eba3e7a862ba069a5&oe=5A83EEE5)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 10, 2017, 11:44:21 AM
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22291595_10214309125703067_7958618607270097983_o.jpg?oh=2c683bc9b9d28bbbaa371eb575cbc2e3&oe=5A7E66E8)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22291469_10214309126823095_7155553418537708455_o.jpg?oh=cfcaab6df8f796f927a9e11627baa683&oe=5A872944)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22424529_10214309127663116_7805061326888285371_o.jpg?oh=958a5d08fc85a2181b6725491b03390c&oe=5A874A80)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22339478_10214309128463136_4615534821015673456_o.jpg?oh=ef594b161337856cfe07e3168e9eef12&oe=5A3D4BDC)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22383944_10214309129183154_6327770137593548901_o.jpg?oh=4762c862ae42f566d25a14718c3f3297&oe=5A7AC84A)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Tom Bley on October 10, 2017, 11:47:50 AM
I was somewhat disappointed with the PQ of this one. :o  Didn't seem as sharp and as detailed like other new movies but, I think that has to do with the medium, 35mm film right? ???
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 10, 2017, 12:19:59 PM
I was somewhat disappointed with the PQ of this one. :o  Didn't seem as sharp and as detailed like other new movies but, I think that has to do with the medium, 35mm film right? ???

True - but it did have a theatrical look - http://nofilmschool.com/2017/06/wonder-woman-cinematography
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Tom Bley on October 10, 2017, 12:45:51 PM
Yep, I saw you posted that in the other thread.  I like the use of color, it just wasn't as sharp and fine object detail was lacking but, still a good picture.  It probably looks better on your 4500 than my 500.  :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 10, 2017, 01:47:00 PM
Yep, I saw you posted that in the other thread.  I like the use of color, it just wasn't as sharp and fine object detail was lacking but, still a good picture.  It probably looks better on your 4500 than my 500.  :)

I think they were going for that " old school " look. They did the same thing with " LaLa Land ", which was also shot on film.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 11, 2017, 03:01:45 PM
" John Wick " on 4K Blu-ray -

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22383997_10214309806240080_1122806541648487754_o.jpg?oh=4ca38d6f3aa9ce80858a2e80406cffaa&oe=5A788BE4)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22339425_10214309807720117_641994593830168356_o.jpg?oh=17694a7b828f4e8eeee8361096ef0f7d&oe=5A3C120F)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22339154_10214309808800144_7790851269002492403_o.jpg?oh=ed804848ac6129186f45ca604a19403c&oe=5A3AAE05)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22291557_10214309810920197_966242712829647607_o.jpg?oh=47392c73579360caf7da5901f26c2ada&oe=5A7F8419)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 11, 2017, 03:02:48 PM
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22424193_10214309813360258_301164588775016044_o.jpg?oh=0b7b3fe71d2ab7d95f91f8fbce94d17f&oe=5A7FD36D)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22339139_10214309814320282_8951009687023765896_o.jpg?oh=6cd105b940016eb447833b1c1857431f&oe=5A4448C7)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22426591_10214309816120327_8335267677989156914_o.jpg?oh=35d3b424f16c3c585ba5cdebd1317df0&oe=5A6F45B4)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on October 12, 2017, 01:35:18 AM
I was somewhat disappointed with the PQ of this one. :o  Didn't seem as sharp and as detailed like other new movies but, I think that has to do with the medium, 35mm film right? ???

Agreed.  I had to double check I was watching the UHD!   IMDb says a 2K DI was used, so it's an upscale.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 13, 2017, 02:11:54 PM
Starship Troopers was hilarious in 4K - for the most part it looked quite good -

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22459411_10214335816050309_8172039794701046166_o.jpg?oh=c4be922e1a102280f75054505256dd43&oe=5A6C0CB2)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22384362_10214335817090335_3779801638020789745_o.jpg?oh=c36885ea8341fd3f7850f04ec83a239c&oe=5A3E3CC8)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22496211_10214335817650349_5638055916945481462_o.jpg?oh=ca07781ea8efbb137fbf2d02c3971fc8&oe=5A826CB4)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22384130_10214335818330366_7996769277452524000_o.jpg?oh=f60b99d3faf6bc5db5f233fe9da590ea&oe=5A786A29)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22384076_10214335819330391_8212319649637430362_o.jpg?oh=25f98f167a8d554c275e60dddb5a1423&oe=5A811881)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 13, 2017, 02:13:41 PM
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22496062_10214335821410443_2559588393889690994_o.jpg?oh=d485d7a821c71363cc059a8c26e3107f&oe=5A777ED3)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22384336_10214335822530471_6013341711081608386_o.jpg?oh=b387e67899207af8841bfaafc7d17efb&oe=5A819D7E)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22424310_10214335823450494_180901489704418648_o.jpg?oh=1b68a37c52cf3399e53c521f2dd89909&oe=5A41333D)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22424585_10214335824490520_371252325419602827_o.jpg?oh=f26dfc0d9f88a93ba9efb783b1511035&oe=5A7F3AA3)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22339346_10214335826370567_6648110759578580472_o.jpg?oh=d7edaee8d4852911533fdad90313b707&oe=5A3AFCA7)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 13, 2017, 02:15:17 PM
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22383989_10214335830530671_7968443016648690821_o.jpg?oh=b2b595c32852948935e797937e1f71b8&oe=5A6CB7E0)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22426629_10214335831610698_2127411479551818612_o.jpg?oh=444d5b740acfa2ed7afdd86678fd4f59&oe=5A4215E9)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22426393_10214335833210738_4473182597263220635_o.jpg?oh=d77ae443faf2c19b5330598fdbf66843&oe=5A7A3662)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22467569_10214335833810753_632070192727185364_o.jpg?oh=7e76e2377fda1f44bb83078e8bb51011&oe=5A7F389B)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22424350_10214335847651099_8018241762108308562_o.jpg?oh=5d7903c6c2984cbc67507d59b9f209f1&oe=5A410A8F)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 13, 2017, 02:16:55 PM
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22384013_10214335848411118_3709227140960286434_o.jpg?oh=bec38c904e9dc600b65b47eaae287554&oe=5A6D4AF0)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22496124_10214335850011158_4418632881416706574_o.jpg?oh=af2636638e6bcd5dd64415813366accf&oe=5A85260A)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22459504_10214335851171187_2393960025994722831_o.jpg?oh=e7cdcb7ab74da2c496b18c8d0b1e83b8&oe=5A75258A)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22384276_10214335851451194_4514477705611548163_o.jpg?oh=4d1dba65a7fbd25de3987641fb051eee&oe=5A3A4D61)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22384304_10214335854091260_8994694951013645958_o.jpg?oh=bee4a86bb830ccd213b1964476ee0601&oe=5A85D16C)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: lorjam on October 14, 2017, 03:37:44 AM
"Kill the bugs....kill them all!"   One of my "guilty pleasure" favorites.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on October 16, 2017, 10:11:47 AM
As soon as soccer season is over, Regional's start this week, I will have more projector time. Off topic, but I shoot the video for the soccer games for training purposes and so that the kids can make recruiting videos for colleges.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96qxSwHI12s&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96qxSwHI12s&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 18, 2017, 04:32:52 PM
Prometheus looks great on 4K Blu-ray !

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22519688_10214371762148939_7476263214279921142_o.jpg?oh=a83b434dc6af28f9a65043100ca003d3&oe=5A8654E0)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22496126_10214371762428946_2940487316455320406_o.jpg?oh=827552fc5db03563064fa4de2f783ccd&oe=5A826A5A)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22538725_10214371762868957_4156604431289800317_o.jpg?oh=bf5338b62d3e74c573c938fcf2e7cad0&oe=5A8369D5)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22496372_10214371763148964_1071228838100132151_o.jpg?oh=d2223840f9e983f9b3ae55d0af9ead64&oe=5A6D6EE1)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22499016_10214371763828981_6815341597499731090_o.jpg?oh=e54e4a58bb6ac3542e4bf432206b483e&oe=5A819393)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 18, 2017, 04:35:03 PM
It's sharp and just great looking !

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22519902_10214371764348994_4787783962313235936_o.jpg?oh=074161be03775c645d61637c6858f8fd&oe=5A39EC59)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22549032_10214371768949109_5897775314202962158_o.jpg?oh=99f77da29850a8bb420ad63c08ddf8ff&oe=5A8630D7)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22528754_10214371770709153_6624453454896557785_o.jpg?oh=0bcf5d46fcc76b7ec3757c4bbe23b19b&oe=5A849197)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22495946_10214371771709178_65781331355187395_o.jpg?oh=a2e5722ac4db19203e080f7c6f2d072e&oe=5A74F828)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22520183_10214371772309193_1474154524158062695_o.jpg?oh=f48f3860ea7e7ac1f3420cbd8e42cfa1&oe=5A86DFC5)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 18, 2017, 04:37:03 PM
Fine detail is amazing !

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22555518_10214371772749204_8498710774561459798_o.jpg?oh=8330b1e72be1144e6c2abd9364985190&oe=5A76B540)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22553241_10214371773789230_7467331021017562899_o.jpg?oh=f4ee71047318b3ce3099eec2765ec461&oe=5A7204F6)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22496332_10214371776069287_3468775311503779597_o.jpg?oh=e4f774d350c1ea29e33a3ca9d2b9463c&oe=5A6A516B)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22496370_10214371776629301_2975476568898439329_o.jpg?oh=3c829d3ad1d9ac14ce12a96815e8cf0c&oe=5A827C55)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22538557_10214371777309318_316170070475845419_o.jpg?oh=e4f56fa2c19a96551e9ea5b0d6eaba79&oe=5A6AA2DE)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 18, 2017, 04:39:00 PM
HDR looks good too.

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22496402_10214371778869357_6143563386756959982_o.jpg?oh=bdbc98e2572df3b526302519e111da35&oe=5A687C1F)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22520160_10214371779629376_6866848855690432942_o.jpg?oh=5e496e77d413c0023afadcb6910eb353&oe=5A698569)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22528776_10214371780629401_5819279699196370438_o.jpg?oh=1ebf5a912fbda885f6b29e80587409a1&oe=5A6D359C)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22549039_10214371781509423_3947464074297248459_o.jpg?oh=749ea76f63a5dfe69c3bbd875502d236&oe=5A82FDAE)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22498976_10214371782549449_8626113311633824799_o.jpg?oh=f62e96e884283ed5c6119e6d71ab4e0a&oe=5A6F924B)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 18, 2017, 04:40:45 PM
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22548663_10214371783589475_3059572667393710483_o.jpg?oh=4e64ccf9b6dd2dfe130a774b01c95aef&oe=5A6BB238)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22538802_10214371791749679_1546226104809264183_o.jpg?oh=0baaeaa766fc7bc730dce233bb2fb431&oe=5A85282B)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22550508_10214371792109688_4756916305596926799_o.jpg?oh=93ca19c73c463f0206eacfd5ddb4d35b&oe=5A77AA63)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22519760_10214371793189715_2253497224610517704_o.jpg?oh=042ed7673faef4e5bd5fb858649004b1&oe=5A67AE24)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22495976_10214371795109763_5403533211961118564_o.jpg?oh=854df0c96bd9587f958ea9c41ffe674a&oe=5A836E64)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 18, 2017, 04:41:50 PM
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22553022_10214371795829781_5057428372252319061_o.jpg?oh=352db5571bdb225313a4431d92a2b520&oe=5A66BD43)

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/22553336_10214371798389845_7128440988095801778_o.jpg?oh=c08dd29ec7687da2a70105babba7676d&oe=5A6AD185)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: mark_h on October 19, 2017, 05:41:27 AM
Spoilers!
 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on October 19, 2017, 08:02:12 AM
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but why don't the laser projectors use a dynamic iris?  I understand that dynamic laser is nice, but seems like that could be combined with DI for increased contrast ratio in some situations.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 19, 2017, 08:25:10 AM
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but why don't the laser projectors use a dynamic iris?  I understand that dynamic laser is nice, but seems like that could be combined with DI for increased contrast ratio in some situations.

You would have to ask the people that engineer these projectors. Maybe I'll ask Rod Sterling of JVC next time I see him. 
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stanger89 on October 19, 2017, 08:59:46 AM
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but why don't the laser projectors use a dynamic iris?  I understand that dynamic laser is nice, but seems like that could be combined with DI for increased contrast ratio in some situations.

Actually a DI would not be that big of a deal, but what would be nice is to have a manual iris, so you had the option of running with more light output from the laser, but toned down with a manual iris (like the RS640's have) that dramatically increased native contrast.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Pultzar on October 19, 2017, 09:39:37 AM
Actually a DI would not be that big of a deal, but what would be nice is to have a manual iris, so you had the option of running with more light output from the laser, but toned down with a manual iris (like the RS640's have) that dramatically increased native contrast.

I thought this was already the case?
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on October 19, 2017, 09:54:15 AM
Actually a DI would not be that big of a deal, but what would be nice is to have a manual iris, so you had the option of running with more light output from the laser, but toned down with a manual iris (like the RS640's have) that dramatically increased native contrast.

It has a manual iris.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on November 02, 2017, 02:27:18 PM
A few screenshots from " Baby Driver " on 4K Blu-ray -

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23157135_10214500796734723_5723228602484004090_o.jpg?oh=508d48b7249e09a6edf9232f29e21e02&oe=5A6B1790)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23004630_10214500800454816_7374836449811823445_o.jpg?oh=b9904c96177d528d65d9a286f18978c5&oe=5A65E2CE)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23215431_10214500802254861_1329673475900251807_o.jpg?oh=f98785b8217714385f5bf142fa8d9c45&oe=5A661315)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23117035_10214500806574969_4407827535875619174_o.jpg?oh=f414e87e7de3d15e84f6f12b886e2d71&oe=5AAC7BE9)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23120112_10214500807734998_1750418127457988616_o.jpg?oh=897415f23d696d2eab61645717b747cb&oe=5A73866E)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on November 02, 2017, 02:29:31 PM
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23119970_10214500808335013_6224382349551933238_o.jpg?oh=d6b9215a802c7635eda6d7dcf0a49095&oe=5AB00916)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23154941_10214500809215035_7370125106820241458_o.jpg?oh=8faa850ed969aa8af95a89ea4e62ac84&oe=5AAF2D8F)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23213247_10214500810175059_6153153641808080945_o.jpg?oh=be22d8d7d7cfc345ac4c2fcd024b1dd7&oe=5AA6C6F4)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23116936_10214500810935078_7459068257436929472_o.jpg?oh=57b8ea7ca79892adfc86c3653bf7c089&oe=5A6344D5)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23004545_10214500811535093_2453984466060930135_o.jpg?oh=0232aa2ac0f7e809de08e71d6e0db4e4&oe=5AA3B450)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 02, 2017, 06:25:36 PM
Actually a DI would not be that big of a deal, but what would be nice is to have a manual iris, so you had the option of running with more light output from the laser, but toned down with a manual iris (like the RS640's have) that dramatically increased native contrast.

Unlike the Sony laser projectors, the 4500 does have a manual iris. That is why I run my 4500 with laser power on medium power with iris closed down. That way I get 23,000:1 native on my 4500. Then add the dynamic dimming and I get good black levels and contrast.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on November 03, 2017, 12:01:53 PM
" Get Out " on 4K Blu-ray. Good movie, great looking disc !

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23155112_10214500900377314_2901799334765822253_o.jpg?oh=a5fa4046864347d1daac171ad8b732a4&oe=5A653B08)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23116883_10214500902577369_5209461777639713589_o.jpg?oh=44d6fe5eeac7a09a2676b4370d4d6235&oe=5A6C8FC9)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23154779_10214500908857526_8563624997738938473_o.jpg?oh=1df6363e8df95e95c3e7b90d6a84d420&oe=5AA17CF0)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23157265_10214500914217660_8518782084595668716_o.jpg?oh=dce15a875ae166bd87a8f5ad2674872a&oe=5AAF96B9)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23116961_10214500916057706_8951099790898405264_o.jpg?oh=d64befa49cdcb7be09f9b4f6199ba3f5&oe=5A6AA447)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 03, 2017, 01:03:45 PM
Unlike the Sony laser projectors, the 4500 does have a manual iris. That is why I run my 4500 with laser power on medium power with iris closed down. That way I get 23,000:1 native on my 4500. Then add the dynamic dimming and I get good black levels and contrast.

That is very respectable performance. Definitely more contrast than the 5000ES. I'm sure it looks great!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: woofer on November 11, 2017, 02:10:43 AM
I am very soon to join the Z1/RS4500 owners club..  :)     Cancelled my JVC 20LTD...hopefully my  the Z1 gets shipped out next week..
I also have to get the Chief mount plate and modify ( beef up ) my existing wall mount...  Hope its all worth it...
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Madfloyd on November 11, 2017, 03:29:38 AM
It will be! You will love it.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 11, 2017, 07:37:51 AM
I am very soon to join the Z1/RS4500 owners club..  :)     Cancelled my JVC 20LTD...hopefully my  the Z1 gets shipped out next week..
I also have to get the Chief mount plate and modify ( beef up ) my existing wall mount...  Hope its all worth it...

Chief does not make a mounting plate that fits the regular line of RPA or RPMA mounts. The custom plate that Chief makes for the RS4500, fits a large heavy duty mount. I have put this information in this thread earlier, but here it is again.Chief VCM105J Adjustabilty of this mount is excellent.
 Would be fine with using this mount with all of my projectors,
 if plates were available.(https://www.milestone.com/-/media/images/chief/product/projectors/vcm_large.ashx)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 11, 2017, 08:32:29 AM
That mount looks beastly!
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: woofer on November 11, 2017, 12:29:57 PM
Chief does not make a mounting plate that fits the regular line of RPA or RPMA mounts. The custom plate that Chief makes for the RS4500, fits a large heavy duty mount. I have put this information in this thread earlier, but here it is again.Chief VCM105J Adjustabilty of this mount is excellent.
 Would be fine with using this mount with all of my projectors,
 if plates were available.(https://www.milestone.com/-/media/images/chief/product/projectors/vcm_large.ashx)

This is the one available to me here in Aus..



Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 11, 2017, 07:45:24 PM
That mount looks beastly!

It is and it matches the projector. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 11, 2017, 07:47:57 PM
This is the one available to me here in Aus..

That one will work, but the one I listed is the better mount.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: woofer on November 15, 2017, 09:03:00 PM
Life is good.. :)

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on November 16, 2017, 06:33:29 AM
Oh ya ! Get help moving that thing - too heavy / bulky for one person.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 16, 2017, 06:53:28 AM
I moved mine by myself, but had to take it out of the box, to do so. I certainly did not try to mount it by myself. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 16, 2017, 06:54:02 AM
Life is good.. :)

Looking forward to reading your thoughts. :)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: woofer on November 18, 2017, 12:17:39 PM
Got my Z1 installed yesterday with the help of a couple of friends who provided some extra muscle.

Impressions from moving from  the JVC  X9500 and X9900....... Absolutely love the Z1.

I am surprised as to performance contrast wise, on most material it looks to be in the same league as the X9500/X9900 which i Know is not the case. Obviously the dynamic dimming is working very well.

The aspect that has "Blown" me away is the "Sharpness" and "Depth" of the image.   On my 143" scope screen the extra resolution is very noticeable. The image is also very very clean.... i now realise just how much "noise" was added to the image by the E-Shift units.

I am able to watch STD Bluray on Med Laser Iris -8......UHD HDR i have too use Max Laser  Iris -5..

Med Laser is very quiet.....Max laser a little higher than "High Lamp" on the E-Shift units.. BUT still acceptable.

So , VERY happy with the upgrade..  :)


Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: woofer on November 18, 2017, 11:33:30 PM
Had my friend who owns the X9500 we used in the X9900/X9500 comparison around today .
 
Spent the morning watching many of the various video sections  from the many films we used in the review. We then watched a couple of films full length.
 
Before getting the Z1 i had real fears i would miss the absolute contrast of my X9500...i voiced this to my friend many times. he was also worried the contrast "loss" of the Z1 would be very noticeable.

Well after today, as well as myself, my friend stated that "to hell with numbers/specifications" Because the Z1 provided the BEST picture he has ever experienced by a mile"!!

Movies that he and myself are very familiar with just take on a whole new look....;.i am honestly still coming to terms on just how sharp and detailed the image is. The image really is a HUGE step up from the E-shift series.

My biggest fear of the "lesser" native contrast of the Z1 is a complete NON issue as it turns out. In nearly all cases it somehow appears to match the X9500 , and in some cases exceed it!! Sometimes measurements mean very little..

So , i have absolutely no regrets on laying down the large amount of funds for the Z1...to me its worth every dollar, its way larger upgrade than i had anticipated..:)
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 19, 2017, 09:16:51 AM
Oh man.... you're making me want something I cannot afford.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on November 19, 2017, 09:36:02 AM
Nice custom shelf - looks bomber !
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSMike on November 20, 2017, 07:51:22 AM
Would love to see you darken your walls and ceiling.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: stanger89 on November 20, 2017, 09:56:29 AM
Well after today, as well as myself, my friend stated that "to hell with numbers/specifications" Because the Z1 provided the BEST picture he has ever experienced by a mile"!!

There's got to be a way to explain that empirically, and I'd love to see someone do a deep dive to do so.  I really wish (or maybe I don't) I could see an RS4500 in person, well setup.  I know the difference in contrast between my RS4910 and my RS600 was apparent, and by all the measurements I've seen, that's a smaller difference than the 4500 vs the 600. 

It would be great to see the mulit-APL contrast results like Mark P and Projection Dream have done, and compare the 600 to the 4500.

But here's hoping that secret sauce makes it into it's little brothers when their finally born :D
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on November 20, 2017, 12:03:49 PM
There's got to be a way to explain that empirically, and I'd love to see someone do a deep dive to do so.  I really wish (or maybe I don't) I could see an RS4500 in person, well setup.  I know the difference in contrast between my RS4910 and my RS600 was apparent, and by all the measurements I've seen, that's a smaller difference than the 4500 vs the 600. 

It would be great to see the mulit-APL contrast results like Mark P and Projection Dream have done, and compare the 600 to the 4500.

But here's hoping that secret sauce makes it into it's little brothers when their finally born
:D

Part of the secret sauce is a lens that probably costs $10,000 by itself.  That won't be showing up in a cheaper model.
Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: woofer on November 20, 2017, 12:06:12 PM
Would love to see you darken your walls and ceiling.

Mike,
 The front 3/4 of the room are black velvet and panels, ...walls, roof ,floor....

Title: Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
Post by: AVSCraig on November 20, 2017, 01:10:30 PM
The 4K Blu-ray " K