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JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #540 on: February 20, 2017, 01:31:23 PM »
Tested a couple of of 4K UHD content today on the Z1; Oblivion and The Huntsman. Dynamic laser modulation still flickers the light output up and down from time to time, but I am confident this issue will be resolved in a firmware update from JVC. Might actually be a defective on this particular unit as others are not seeing this the way I am. On "The Huntsman" UHD, in the scene where the snow queen first "preaches" to her newly kidnapped kid-soldiers, the image brightness was going up and down 3-4 times during this scene alone... Other than that a number of other image parameters are very impressive. I´d say my overall impression is that the projector really makes out a "35mm/70mm filmlike" or "organic" type of image, especially when all image processing is turned off and in "natural" mode. I guess the native 4K in combination with the very stabile laser light (except again laser modulation issues...) calls for this appearance. Film grain as well as subtle details are more clearly depicted than I have ever seen before from a digital (home cinema) projector...

Sharpness, color reproduction (rec709) as well as image movement stability is really impressive as well. Light output is also quite good, but as stated before, this projector will probably work best on a <10ft wide screen so that the fixed iris can be tuned down a bit and thus obtain better absolute blacks. On my 13 feet wide screen, absolute blacks are not currently "there" as I need to keep the iris open to produce enough light output (+ high laser mode), but I have still not had the unit calibrated so it runs a default 2.4 gamma so this might be possible to improve on quite signicantly. Perhaps not the absolute black itself, but the detailing, currently somewhat "black crushed" at times, is certainly most lightly possible to improve on.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 01:46:14 PM by lygren »
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Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #541 on: February 20, 2017, 01:38:18 PM »
Is there an easy way to get updated when (if?!) new firmwares arrive or do we have to keep an eye on some webpage somewhere?
My cinema: The Cave

AVSCraig

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #542 on: February 20, 2017, 02:28:26 PM »
Tested a couple of of 4K UHD content today on the Z1; Oblivion and The Huntsman. Dynamic laser modulation still flickers the light output up and down from time to time, but I am confident this issue will be resolved in a firmware update from JVC. Might actually be a defective on this particular unit as others are not seeing this the way I am. On "The Huntsman" UHD, in the scene where the snow queen first "preaches" to her newly kidnapped kid-soldiers, the image brightness was going up and down 3-4 times during this scene alone... Other than that a number of other image parameters are very impressive. I´d say my overall impression is that the projector really makes out a "35mm/70mm filmlike" or "organic" type of image, especially when all image processing is turned off and in "natural" mode. I guess the native 4K in combination with the very stabile laser light (except again laser modulation issues...) calls for this appearance. Film grain as well as subtle details are more clearly depicted than I have ever seen before from a digital (home cinema) projector...

Sharpness, color reproduction (rec709) as well as image movement stability is really impressive as well. Light output is also quite good, but as stated before, this projector will probably work best on a <10ft wide screen so that the fixed iris can be tuned down a bit and thus obtain better absolute blacks. On my 13 feet wide screen, absolute blacks are not currently "there" as I need to keep the iris open to produce enough light output (+ high laser mode), but I have still not had the unit calibrated so it runs a default 2.4 gamma so this might be possible to improve on quite signicantly. Perhaps not the absolute black itself, but the detailing, currently somewhat "black crushed" at times, is certainly most lightly possible to improve on.

I don't have " The Huntsman " UHD, but I do have " Oblivion ". I have watched " Oblivion " quite a few times on my RS600, both on Blu Ray, and later on UHD BR. On my StudioTek 130 ( 118" wide 2.35:1 ) I have lots of headroom in mid laser. In fact, I decided last night - after watching " Hell or High Water " on Blu Ray, that it really was too bright even with the manual iris at -7 ( 27.70 foot lamberts on my 16:9 screen ). So I've closed it to -9 ( need to get a reading for foot lamberts tonight ). I'm thinking maybe there is something going on with your unit - I can watch Oblivion beginning to end, and never see the dynamic dimming misbehave other than a brief instance ( same as any other dynamic iris I've seen ). Maybe I got " golden sample " .  ;)

I watched a bit of " Jupiter Ascending " on 4K UHD. After having watched it on my RS600, I was prepared to be disappointed black level wise. Actually, it looks amazing, and the dynamic dimming works well here too !

AVSCraig

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #543 on: February 20, 2017, 02:28:50 PM »
Is there an easy way to get updated when (if?!) new firmwares arrive or do we have to keep an eye on some webpage somewhere?

Let me ask my JVC guy.

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #544 on: February 21, 2017, 12:58:25 AM »
Tested a couple of of 4K UHD content today on the Z1; Oblivion and The Huntsman. Dynamic laser modulation still flickers the light output up and down from time to time, but I am confident this issue will be resolved in a firmware update from JVC. Might actually be a defective on this particular unit as others are not seeing this the way I am. On "The Huntsman" UHD, in the scene where the snow queen first "preaches" to her newly kidnapped kid-soldiers, the image brightness was going up and down 3-4 times during this scene alone... Other than that a number of other image parameters are very impressive. I´d say my overall impression is that the projector really makes out a "35mm/70mm filmlike" or "organic" type of image, especially when all image processing is turned off and in "natural" mode. I guess the native 4K in combination with the very stabile laser light (except again laser modulation issues...) calls for this appearance. Film grain as well as subtle details are more clearly depicted than I have ever seen before from a digital (home cinema) projector...

Sharpness, color reproduction (rec709) as well as image movement stability is really impressive as well. Light output is also quite good, but as stated before, this projector will probably work best on a <10ft wide screen so that the fixed iris can be tuned down a bit and thus obtain better absolute blacks. On my 13 feet wide screen, absolute blacks are not currently "there" as I need to keep the iris open to produce enough light output (+ high laser mode), but I have still not had the unit calibrated so it runs a default 2.4 gamma so this might be possible to improve on quite signicantly. Perhaps not the absolute black itself, but the detailing, currently somewhat "black crushed" at times, is certainly most lightly possible to improve on.


There is nothing wrong with your unit. I have had two units now. Both have the exact same problem you are describing with the dynamic iris. And I have seen other mention it too, even if they are not overly bothered by it.

It's promenent in any material that switches back and forth from dark to bright content. The best way I can describe it, is that the Laser is just a half a second to late in making the adjustment. It's like one frame behind.

So you are not alone, this just needs to be tweaked by JVC.  If JVC will get a firmware update out to address this issue, and possibly tame the fan noise slightly, the unit would be just about flawless. 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 01:00:31 AM by Ccool96 »

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #545 on: February 21, 2017, 03:50:53 AM »

There is nothing wrong with your unit. I have had two units now. Both have the exact same problem you are describing with the dynamic iris. And I have seen other mention it too, even if they are not overly bothered by it.

It's promenent in any material that switches back and forth from dark to bright content. The best way I can describe it, is that the Laser is just a half a second to late in making the adjustment. It's like one frame behind.

So you are not alone, this just needs to be tweaked by JVC.  If JVC will get a firmware update out to address this issue, and possibly tame the fan noise slightly, the unit would be just about flawless.

OK, thanks, hoping for a firmware update then, I´ll certainly report this issue to my JVC representative as well just to make sure they get the input from a sufficient amount of channels! :)
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AVSCraig

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #546 on: February 21, 2017, 10:48:55 AM »
Is there an easy way to get updated when (if?!) new firmwares arrive or do we have to keep an eye on some webpage somewhere?

Just keep an eye out here - if and when new firmware comes out, we will post the news immediately !!

AVSMike

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Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #547 on: February 22, 2017, 09:44:22 AM »
I see that halo with lots of different projectors. Most of the time I do not notice in my black pit of a room, but if I move a projector to my family room setup, which has off white walls, I can see the light scatter. Last projector that i did this with was a Vivitek H9090. Did not notice light spill in my room, but saw a complete circle of light spill in the family room. I never moved my RS600 to the family room, to check it.
My Baffle Wall System: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=124.msg902#msg902

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JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Da-Lite, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan & more.

AVSCraig

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #548 on: February 22, 2017, 11:49:35 AM »
I did some playing around last night with my RS4500. Got it set at a more reasonable 20 foot lamberts - ha ! The HDR preset looks really good with a lot of titles I've watched so far. But I'm even more impressed still with Blu Rays on this projector - which is good, since I have hundreds of them. One pet peeve of mine with the RS600 was film grain looking much more pronounced on movies like MI : Ghost Protocol and Interstellar. Took me a few hours going back and forth with my Sony VW600 to get the film grain / video noise ( some of you guys called them " crawlies " ) to look identical ( which I did by turning off the MPC settings ). I'm now of the conclusion that the Panasonic UB900 upscaling Blu Rays to 4K looks better than source direct from my Oppo BDP103. With one or two clicks of noise reduction ( all MPC settings in the RS4500 to 0 ), and a click or two of sharpness in the UB900 ( like Javs has been using with his RS600 ), Blu Rays look amazing. That film grain / noise is gone ( now it looks like it did on my VW600, for you Sony fans ), detail is fantastic, no down sides that I can see ( good UB900 test report in the Feb. / March Sound and Vision magazine on how the sharpness setting doesn't add ringing and how the noise reduction doesn't soften the picture too much - sharpening probably offsets that ).

Now I have to figure out what to watch for my 61st birthday tomorrow - maybe I'll see how Gladiator - one of my favorite Ridley Scott films, looks on the RS4500 now !  So many movies, so little time !

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #549 on: February 22, 2017, 03:47:23 PM »
Now I have to figure out what to watch for my 61st birthday tomorrow - maybe I'll see how Gladiator - one of my favorite Ridley Scott films, looks on the RS4500 now !  So many movies, so little time !
[/quote]

...stop with the age already!!...be lucky that your reaching 61...i've past it 14 years ago!...yes, so many movies,so little time!...(now, I'll go back to sleep, thank you)...

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #550 on: February 23, 2017, 12:00:48 AM »
Hello all! We are holding three Colorado based home theater seminars in March, featuring the JVC RS4500 and RS620. Mike Garrett posted about it here, in the "Home Theater Seminar" thread:

https://discuss.avscience.com/?topic=387.msg3952#msg3952

It's a great chance to see the RS4500 and RS620 in action, plus other products from Stewart, Revel, JBL Synthesis, etc. Kris Deering will be one of our special guest presenters, along with Chris Deutsch of JVC, Gregg Loewen of THX, and Robert Keeler from Stewart. Dates are March 11 and 12th (Denver, Marriott Tech Center) and March 18th (Colorado Springs Marriott). Click on the link above for all the details. Thanks to Mark and the gang at AV Science for allowing us to post about this!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 03:28:51 PM by John Schuermann »
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AVSCraig

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #551 on: February 23, 2017, 10:50:21 AM »
A contact from JVC stopped by last night to check out my theater, and play with my RS4500. We did a lot of switching back and forth between the HDR pre-set mode and trying it with BT.2020 color space. While the color looks a little better ( we agreed at the end that we were really splitting hairs here ) with BT.2020, I think overall it looks better - dark scenes especially - with the HDR pre-set mode. The scene in the 4k version of Star Trek ( 2009 ) where the Romulan space ship goes across the scene ( right after " Three Years Later " ) - you can see a lot more detail, and overall the picture is brighter. even at my setting of -7 or -8 manual iris, mode 2 dimming. So while I can easily light up my 118" wide 2.35:1 ST 130 screen with BT.2020, for me, the HDR pre-set wins. Star Trek 4K, Kingsman 4K, Lone Survivor 4K - all looked outstanding !

We watched some HDTV ( Dish ) with the RS4500 set on High Bright. It looked fine - you could easily watch the Super Bowl on High Bright - colors were close enough. With a 100 IRE test pattern High Bright yielded 687 lux - which on my 122" diagonal 16:9 Stewart Cima Neve, gives me 70.23 foot lamberts ! That's going with Stewarts published 1.1 gain for the Neve. If you go by Accucal's measured 1.25 gain, that's 79.80 foot lamberts - nearly 80 foot lamberts ! It was easy to watch with full lighting on in the room - that's for sure !
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 11:11:19 AM by AVSCraig »

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #552 on: February 23, 2017, 11:58:43 AM »
@AVSCraig,  My unit measured out almost identical to your original findings, of just shy of 2300 lumens / max Laser / iris open in natural mode.

So what was done different, so now you have 2800 lumens? What mode was that measured in?  The 500 lumen difference is a huge deal to me. 

Also, I have looked at that Accucal screen report and some of those numbers don't make any sense. They show the EN4K material at 0.84, but when I shoot my fabric with a Minolta LS100 and then compare it to a sample of Studiotec 100, which is a Refernce 1.0 gain, that gives my EN4K fabric a gain of 0.7. This is also exactly what sound and vision measured when they reviewed the EN4K screen as well.

Thanks
Chris
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 10:34:02 PM by Ccool96 »

AVSMike

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Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #553 on: February 23, 2017, 12:20:17 PM »
@AVSCraig,  I have actually been emailing Chris about my unit and your unit.  My unit measured out almost identical to your original findings, of just shy of 2300 lumens / max Laser / iris open in natural mode.

So what was done different, so now you have 2800 lumens? What mode was that measured in?  The 500 lumen difference is a huge deal to me. 

Also, I have looked at that Accucal screen report and some of those numbers don't make any sense. They show the EN4K material at 0.84, but when I shoot my fabric with a Minolta LS100 and then compare it to a sample of Studiotec 100, which is a Refernce 1.0 gain, that gives my EN4K fabric a gain of 0.7. This is also exactly what sound and vision measured when they reviewed the EN4K screen as well.

Thanks
Chris

Craig noted he used High Bright, not Natural mode.
My Baffle Wall System: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=124.msg902#msg902

Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com

JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Da-Lite, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan & more.

AVSMike

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Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #554 on: February 23, 2017, 12:21:40 PM »
Craig noted he used High Bright, not Natural mode.

That is also one of the reasons, I am going to switch to V6 fabric. V6 has a little higher gain.
My Baffle Wall System: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=124.msg902#msg902

Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com

JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Da-Lite, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan & more.

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