JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)

[Kris Deering]

Javs, given that's a Blu-Ray Disc that's not reference... For accuracy you must use a reference pattern generator like the Murideo SIX-G 4K HDR for example... Just checking that you know / are aware of this, which I am sure you are... There are some comparatively less expensive but still good pattern generators out there, so given you are clearly very much into your measurements (which is great) you might want to think about investing in one... It's well worth it IMO

While I agree that pattern generators are ideal, as long as the patterns are vetted they should be fine even if sourced from a Blu. And the AVS disc is fine in that regard.

[ARROW-AV]

While I agree that pattern generators are ideal, as long as the patterns are vetted they should be fine even if sourced from a Blu. And the AVS disc is fine in that regard.

Mmmmm, there seems to be mixed opinions regarding this, so I'll just say that what I just posted is the THX professional video calibration guidelines so it's up to whoever whether or not they choose to follow these... Where we do, and for what it's worth we have experienced first hand some significant variances with respect to signal outputs across blu-ray discs and different blu-ray players... It's quite simply not reference. But of course everyone is entitled to form their own opinion and I don't want to kick off an argument, so each to their own...

[Kris Deering]

Mmmmm, there seems to be mixed opinions regarding this, so I'll just say that what I just posted is the THX professional video calibration guidelines so it's up to whoever whether or not they choose to follow these... Where we do, and for what it's worth we have experienced first hand some significant variances with respect to signal outputs across blu-ray discs and different blu-ray players... It's quite simply not reference. But of course everyone it entitled to form their own opinion and I don't want to kick of an argument so each to their own...

It is a good argument. There are test discs that have been verified for accuracy of the pattern, the AVS disc is one of them as is the S&M disc. But I agree that players may distort the signal, but the Oppo isn't one of them and has had its output verified to be as accurate as any test generator. For test generators I have a Radiance Pro, DVDO 4K TPG, and a Videoforge. I also have test discs from S&M, THX, Video Essentials, AVS709, Marvell, and Ted's disc.

[ARROW-AV]

It is a good argument. There are test discs that have been verified for accuracy of the pattern, the AVS disc is one of them as is the S&M disc. But I agree that players may distort the signal, but the Oppo isn't one of them and has had its output verified to be as accurate as any test generator. For test generators I have a Radiance Pro, DVDO 4K TPG, and a Videoforge. I also have test discs from S&M, THX, Video Essentials, AVS709, Marvell, and Ted's disc.

Variance across discs is not the only issue, but variance across players as well, and then there are other influencing factors... Or let me put it this way, if you were to attend the THX professional video calibration Levels 1 & 2 you would be specifically told NOT to do this, for the reasons I have stated... Take away from that whatever you like and of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions... Like I said, I don't want to get into an argument, so let's leave it there...

And for what it's worth Kris, your capabilities were never, are never, and will never be in question even for a nanosecond... And neither is Javs... I was simply wanting to make the point that if you want to be absolutely sure of accuracy then you really need to be using a reference pattern generator... That was/is my only point here

[Kris Deering]

Hi Kris, I posted this on AVS but will repeat it here. I think going forward with these laser projectors, I think the most useful information would be contrast ratio measured at multiple APL levels, in addition to the regular 50% ANSI measurement.

What I really want to know,

At 16fl, what is the contrast ratio at 1% APL.

We know dimming takes care of 0%, then 1% through 4% is critical information and will actually tell us a lot.

For Eg, my X7000 at Low lamp -10 it does this:

0% - 48,571:1
1% - 45,945:1
2% - 15,962:1
3% - 6,273:1
4% - 3,238:1

If you could grab those measurements and let us know, I know it would just put a lot of us at ease.

For my calibrated viewing (17 fL) using the laser in mid power, aperture at -8, near long throw and with the dynamic dimming activated in mode 2:

0=67K:1
1%=20K:1
2%=10K:1
3%=6300:1
4%=3500:1

[Kris Deering]

Variance across discs is not the only issue, but variance across players as well, and then there are other influencing factors... Or let me put it this way, if you were to attend the THX professional video calibration Levels 1 & 2 you would be specifically told NOT to do this, for the reasons I have stated... Take away from that whatever you like and of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions... Like I said, I don't want to get into an argument, so let's leave it there...

I've had many conversations about this with the guys that created the THX program, Michael has been to my house many times. For calibration it is always ideal to use a pattern generator (this also speeds up the process) but for measurements such as contrast as long as you are using vetted patterns with a player that is known to output HDMI signals correctly (which the Oppo is), there is no difference between this and a pattern generator. This may not be the case for all players out there, but in the case of the Oppo BDP-105 (which is what I'm using in this case) it is.

[ARROW-AV]

I've had many conversations about this with the guys that created the THX program, Michael has been to my house many times. For calibration it is always ideal to use a pattern generator (this also speeds up the process) but for measurements such as contrast as long as you are using vetted patterns with a player that is known to output HDMI signals correctly (which the Oppo is), there is no difference between this and a pattern generator. This may not be the case for all players out there, but in the case of the Oppo BDP-105 (which is what I'm using in this case) it is.

Absolutely fair enough

And I should add, gotta love those OPPOs!!!

[ARROW-AV]

For my calibrated viewing (17 fL) using the laser in mid power, aperture at -8, near long throw and with the dynamic dimming activated in mode 2:

0=67K:1
1%=20K:1
2%=10K:1
3%=6300:1
4%=3500:1

Kris you are an absolute LEGEND!!!! 

At long last we have reliable and intelligible data regarding this projector!

So basically, we are talking about 40%(ish) the contrast of the existing models, which is to be expected, but nothing like the disaster that we were led to believe. Brilliant.

Have you some lumens figures to accompany those? I hope I am not asking too much!

[Dylan Seeger]

Is it possible to get a native on/off contrast measurement with the same setup minus the laser dimming being enabled?

[Javs]

For my calibrated viewing (17 fL) using the laser in mid power, aperture at -8, near long throw and with the dynamic dimming activated in mode 2:

0=67K:1
1%=20K:1
2%=10K:1
3%=6300:1
4%=3500:1

WOW. That is a little unexpected. We can expect a lot more contrast if you stopped the iris down to maximum is that right? -8 if its in line with current JVC's is about half way closed.

Thanks so much Kris.

Question, with the Dynamic dimming mode active as it is, why is 0% not infinity, or completely off?

If 0% truly does switch off, and 1% is 20k:1 that's the level I have from my RS500 wide open at 1%, and by damn, thats not bad at all, I will buy this thing if that is the case.

[ARROW-AV]

WOW. That is a little unexpected. We can expect a lot more contrast if you stopped the iris down to maximum is that right? -8 if its in line with current JVC's is about half way closed.

Thanks so much Kris.

Question, with the Dynamic dimming mode active as it is, why is 0% not infinity, or completely off?

If 0% truly does switch off, and 1% is 20k:1 that's the level I have from my RS500 wide open at 1%, and by damn, thats not bad at all, I will buy this thing if that is the case.

Javs, what's your opinion regarding the fact the X7000 figures have only a small decrease in contrast between 0% and 1% APL but the drop is a lot greater with the RS4500/Z1... What's your opinion regarding that?

[Javs]

Javs, what's your opinion regarding the fact the X7000 figures have only a small decrease in contrast between 0% and 1% APL but the drop is a lot greater with the RS4500/Z1... What's your opinion regarding that?

Bar 17 could be slightly darker on my unit at the positions I actually watch content... I tend to assume 17 is fine if I can barely see it with my face to the screen... bar 17 visible, dark as hell or not, is not technically clipping

Could be that, or, could be the dimming playing some part, I dont get why this is not infinity if dimming was on.

Otherwise the only time my JVC considerably drops at 1% is iris-15:

0% - 112,307:1
1% - 73,000:1
2% - 20,277:1
3% - 7,643:1
4% - 3,518:1

This is the RS500 low lamp -0:

0% - 22,750:1
1% - 22,377:1
2% - 10,073:1
3% - 4,105:1
4% - 2,363:1

[DavidHir]

Much better contrast numbers than we were lead to believe.  Sounds like this is going to be a phenomenal projector.  I would also like to hear about the HDR performance.

[AVSCraig]

Much better contrast numbers than we were lead to believe.  Sounds like this is going to be a phenomenal projector.  I would also like to hear about the HDR performance.

Especially when all the other improvements are taken into account. I just watched " Deepwater Horizon " in 4K on my RS600. Going to have to use this as a test disc when I get the RS4500. Stellar picture quality.

[Kris Deering]

Bar 17 could be slightly darker on my unit at the positions I actually watch content... I tend to assume 17 is fine if I can barely see it with my face to the screen... bar 17 visible, dark as hell or not, is not technically clipping

Could be that, or, could be the dimming playing some part, I dont get why this is not infinity if dimming was on.

Otherwise the only time my JVC considerably drops at 1% is iris-15:

0% - 112,307:1
1% - 73,000:1
2% - 20,277:1
3% - 7,643:1
4% - 3,518:1

This is the RS500 low lamp -0:

0% - 22,750:1
1% - 22,377:1
2% - 10,073:1
3% - 4,105:1
4% - 2,363:1

Digital 17 is not an issue with the 4500 like it is with other models.