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SONY G90

Re: SONY G90
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2017, 02:53:50 PM »
The G90 is a light canon and if run as such a tube toaster.. So guess its wise to turn it down, at 11fl on a 90" it should last quite a while.. I seen a Marquee with lug tubes run at candle power for around 1000 hours, and show slight hint of wear on green, and marquee with LCP tubes with 3500 hours with no hint at all.. So i wonder if the fine grained phosfor in the hi res tubes are the main sinner, i would love to see how a G90 with LCP tubes and some better lenses would look like.

Yes, the fine grained phosphor may also have different cemical properties from the LCP or may have been applied in a thinner layer inside the tube face to get a sharper look but also more easy to burn and wear out.

I am quite sensitive for 1x chip color wheel DLP rainbow effects, and can sometimes notice some of the same memory effect from the different CRT tubes and phosphors. In the G90 it is the blue phosphor with a little green edge that i sometimes see, in Marquee with LCP tubes, the green with some yellow.to red shows up.
Have you seen some of these same effects stridsvognen?

Re: SONY G90
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2017, 12:36:08 AM »
Cool to have 2 cinema`s in your home.  I know what you have :) Also agree enjoy the "dark side" correct adjusted, one of the coolest features on a CRT .
And you will measure almost every CRT to infinite contrast.  That's because tubes shut more or less off.
And the max "used/available" contrast around 16000-60000:1 depend on type CRT, adjustments and specifications.

Its very normal that CRT clip black to some degree, and you have to elevate the raster/ black level, and the main reason to use the Marquee instead of the G90 is that its possible to rebuild the analog videochain to work much better with the reference level signal out of the dac, the G90 image looks to me in comparison very washed out, and im sure it has to do with the very very long overly complicated signal path in the G90.. And thats why its wishfull thinking to implement a Marquee alike videochain like what Gjaky is working on, and get the image quality from a Marquee combined with the focus, geometry and deflection system of the G90
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

Re: SONY G90
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2017, 05:32:14 AM »
Its very normal that CRT clip black to some degree, and you have to elevate the raster/ black level, and the main reason to use the Marquee instead of the G90 is that its possible to rebuild the analog videochain to work much better with the reference level signal out of the dac, the G90 image looks to me in comparison very washed out, and im sure it has to do with the very very long overly complicated signal path in the G90.. And thats why its wishfull thinking to implement a Marquee alike videochain like what Gjaky is working on, and get the image quality from a Marquee combined with the focus, geometry and deflection system of the G90

This is preference what kind of CRT you like, just like another prospective me D-ila over SXRD digital. There have been tests with G90 compared to newest marquees with different mod at Curt Palme forum, they say the opposite of you statement here. But again that's how it will always be. Some like A and some like B. I know that you know Marquee and got the image you like out of it.  And Per J have done the same with the G90 that Ask4me2 now own and that looked great..
 

Re: SONY G90
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2017, 07:49:01 AM »
There have been tests with G90 compared to newest marquees with different mod at Curt Palme forum, they say the opposite of you statement here. 

Could you point me to the thread with those tests; don't recall seeing that on Curt's site.  IMO, it's a shame that the G90 signal path is so convoluted because the focus system really is superior and they perform FAR more consistently out of the box than Marquees do.  When Kurt set up my PJ back in the fall he spent 40+ hours dialing things in and a big part of that was chasing down issues like HVPS cross talk, testing Sony and Marquee yokes, etc.  It took a long time because each change resulted in magnetics and color calibration being redone and evaluated.  Then throw in the mix the radiance/HDfury and you see why it becomes an all encompassing task.

Re: SONY G90
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2017, 08:28:09 AM »
Could you point me to the thread with those tests; don't recall seeing that on Curt's site.  IMO, it's a shame that the G90 signal path is so convoluted because the focus system really is superior and they perform FAR more consistently out of the box than Marquees do.  When Kurt set up my PJ back in the fall he spent 40+ hours dialing things in and a big part of that was chasing down issues like HVPS cross talk, testing Sony and Marquee yokes, etc.  It took a long time because each change resulted in magnetics and color calibration being redone and evaluated.  Then throw in the mix the radiance/HDfury and you see why it becomes an all encompassing task.

No doubt that Kurt can set up Marquee.  I know that.
But the only way to see if the Marquee is visibly better is with a side by side test, and both would have to be adjusted by persons with knowledge to the same standards/calibration.  G90 is much more complex and new tec compared to marquee, That's also why modd have good effect on Marquees. They are not good without mod, my opinion.
If someone says a G90 is a walk in the park CRT, then no knowledge about it.  Yes you can get a crappy picture on it if you don't know all the different settings and what it do, and how to set it up.  But a Marquee will give a less processed picture overall YES.
But processing is not always bad if someone feel its better. This also is what you and others feel about a CRT or other tec.
What you like about your Marquee can also be not liked by others. You and me or others can say what we like with our setup and adore but can`t say that it is better.  We are different.  That is just you're or mine or others opinion. 

About the tread on Curts forum Just look you find it its there.  Will take me long time to find this again, when I don't remember the threads name. I don't care about it.
Maybe some otter person here know then please post.  The  poster CMJohnsen
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 10:06:38 AM by Diddern »

Re: SONY G90
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2017, 12:19:48 PM »
No doubt that Kurt can set up Marquee.  I know that.
But the only way to see if the Marquee is visibly better is with a side by side test, and both would have to be adjusted by persons with knowledge to the same standards/calibration.  G90 is much more complex and new tec compared to marquee, That's also why modd have good effect on Marquees. They are not good without mod, my opinion.
If someone says a G90 is a walk in the park CRT, then no knowledge about it.  Yes you can get a crappy picture on it if you don't know all the different settings and what it do, and how to set it up.  But a Marquee will give a less processed picture overall YES.
But processing is not always bad if someone feel its better. This also is what you and others feel about a CRT or other tec.
What you like about your Marquee can also be not liked by others. You and me or others can say what we like with our setup and adore but can`t say that it is better.  We are different.  That is just you're or mine or others opinion. 

About the tread on Curts forum Just look you find it its there.  Will take me long time to find this again, when I don't remember the threads name. I don't care about it.
Maybe some otter person here know then please post.  The  poster CMJohnsen

I have both a G90 and a few different Marquee.. Just lost one today.. I did compare the Marquee and the G90 way back before the Marquee was able to perform as it is today, and i do have mods and different dac solutions for the G90..
This thread was kind of me picking up on the G90 again to maybe see if it was possible to tweak the videochain using Gjakys mods, and Marquee neckboards in a G90.. I posted about my G90 experiences back then, and sure a lot of people got upset even they had never owned a Marquee, and far from had a clue how to operate one.

There is a few wery simple performance parameters on the G90 that is easy demonstrated, and im pretty sure nobody will disagree that it simply have terrible ansi contrast when looking at the image.. It might not be any huge measurable difference on a simple low res ansi pattern, but with hi res movie content im pretty sure if we all sit together looking at the same screen you would pick the same projector.. Now the Marquee is a terrible machine in many ways, and cant say its not performing worse from standard, i think it might.. And even most of the mods for the marquee introduce more problems than it solves.. So having close to 30 Marquee projectors and huge piles of different standard and moddet boards tubes dacs and whatever have shown results from terribl to fantastic.. And a lot in between.. As Justin tells its a tiresome process to trow around boards and find the right combination.. So having both the G90 and the Marquee projectors in the same house, having done them side by side, and having the option to do it again if i desire makes me  think its ok to have a opinion about it, and think that people that has not went true the same trouble testing and evaluating both might go do so before they form a final judgment on the matter.

You guys know your always welcome to post some killer screenshots from the G90, testpatterns and whatever to demonstrate how well it performs, or to show why you think it is better, or why your G90 is better than all the other G90 projectors out there.. And ill keep up getting mine up running again.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 12:22:13 PM by stridsvognen »
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

Re: SONY G90
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2017, 11:09:03 PM »
I have both a G90 and a few different Marquee.. Just lost one today.. I did compare the Marquee and the G90 way back before the Marquee was able to perform as it is today, and i do have mods and different dac solutions for the G90..
This thread was kind of me picking up on the G90 again to maybe see if it was possible to tweak the videochain using Gjakys mods, and Marquee neckboards in a G90.. I posted about my G90 experiences back then, and sure a lot of people got upset even they had never owned a Marquee, and far from had a clue how to operate one.

There is a few wery simple performance parameters on the G90 that is easy demonstrated, and im pretty sure nobody will disagree that it simply have terrible ansi contrast when looking at the image.. It might not be any huge measurable difference on a simple low res ansi pattern, but with hi res movie content im pretty sure if we all sit together looking at the same screen you would pick the same projector.. Now the Marquee is a terrible machine in many ways, and cant say its not performing worse from standard, i think it might.. And even most of the mods for the marquee introduce more problems than it solves.. So having close to 30 Marquee projectors and huge piles of different standard and moddet boards tubes dacs and whatever have shown results from terribl to fantastic.. And a lot in between.. As Justin tells its a tiresome process to trow around boards and find the right combination.. So having both the G90 and the Marquee projectors in the same house, having done them side by side, and having the option to do it again if i desire makes me  think its ok to have a opinion about it, and think that people that has not went true the same trouble testing and evaluating both might go do so before they form a final judgment on the matter.

You guys know your always welcome to post some killer screenshots from the G90, testpatterns and whatever to demonstrate how well it performs, or to show why you think it is better, or why your G90 is better than all the other G90 projectors out there.. And ill keep up getting mine up running again.

Hi Strids.
The G90 is extremely complex and NOT a walk in the park compared to the Marquee.  But I think you know that. Per J used a long time to get the picture that it ended with, it has all. And all 1:1 patterns I have seen of CRT on net is not any better., CRT limitations. Also I think screenshots are totally worthless and don't prove anything, that's why I stopped at other forums and wont start again.
Why I and others think the G90 is better,  its 10 years newer than any Marquee, better tec.  That's also why mods on the G90 it is hard to find, if there is any.

You think the marquee is the best CRT and easy say that you pick that before anything else in 2017. I wont,,,, And you and me are free to have own feelings. I see the positive and negative in each tec. And don't have CRT, but still I find the CRT image special and still like it. And by far the G90 the best I have seen yet. But all 9" adjusted correct with knowledge I don't think the image will be way off any marquee.  But I might be wrong have not seen yours :).
But I hope that me and Per can have a look when your Cinema is up and running, Denmark is not far.




Re: SONY G90
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2017, 12:48:26 AM »
It would actually be quite easy to demonstrate the difference with screenshots.. Here is a example from the last days, where i shot a standard and a moddet marquee netflix streaming running 195Mhz, both are fast setups, the last/ moddet did not focus as well, think the glycol might be getting bad, same comparison is easy made with a G90.. Forget about colors and calibration.. just look at the contrast and detail level.

The G90 will do a nice 1:1 pattern, but if you study the pattern closely or if you would scope the signal you would notice a lot of peaking distortion.. Thats just how that is, and a standard Marquee look just as bad when peaked to look the same on pattern, and i dont see any standard CRT that have any decent out of black performance.. You might think its reference, i think its bad, but that dont change that we each like what we like, but at the end of the day i very much doubt you would pick differently than me if looking on the same 2 projectors, the biggest problem is that thae Marquee normaly fails to perform a decent image, and there is a huge pile of options as it feels like there is no 2 the same Marquee, and the G90 is a G90, its like always the same.. So its consistent performance no doubt about that.

And i also stated multiple times that if the choise came between the G90 and a good digital, i would most likely go digital.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 12:55:26 AM by stridsvognen »
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

Re: SONY G90
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2017, 01:09:39 AM »
It would actually be quite easy to demonstrate the difference with screenshots.. Here is a example from the last days, where i shot a standard and a moddet marquee netflix streaming running 195Mhz, both are fast setups, the last/ moddet did not focus as well, think the glycol might be getting bad, same comparison is easy made with a G90.. Forget about colors and calibration.. just look at the contrast and detail level.

The G90 will do a nice 1:1 pattern, but if you study the pattern closely or if you would scope the signal you would notice a lot of peaking distortion.. Thats just how that is, and a standard Marquee look just as bad when peaked to look the same on pattern, and i dont see any standard CRT that have any decent out of black performance.. You might think its reference, i think its bad, but that dont change that we each like what we like, but at the end of the day i very much doubt you would pick differently than me if looking on the same 2 projectors, the biggest problem is that thae Marquee normaly fails to perform a decent image, and there is a huge pile of options as it feels like there is no 2 the same Marquee, and the G90 is a G90, its like always the same.. So its consistent performance no doubt about that.

And i also stated multiple times that if the choise came between the G90 and a good digital, i would most likely go digital.

To judge contrast from a screenshot is totally impossible. This goes under the term misinformation.
Regards
Andreas                                                           

Calibration software: Lightspace and Calman. TPG: Murideo Fresco SIX-G
Meters: Klein K-10 A and Jeti 1501. THX II certified.

Re: SONY G90
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2017, 02:04:26 AM »
Here is a zoom of the background showing the difference of these 2 pictures, where its visible that black is cleaner, and bright parts are cleaner and brighter.. Same camera and same conditions, source and so on, 2 pretty identical projectors just with different boards/ videochain.. Ill say that a cleaner black, and brighter brights, and better defined details is better contrast/ dynamic in the image. And that one videochain handle colors better than the other is just a addet bonus feature from the addet bandwidth and less noise in the analog domain. On a low res calibration window they perform the same measured grayscale tracking, but we all know how useless that can turn out in a real image containing a more complex composition. And it would be interesting to see how the G90 videochain fare in this regard in direct comparison.. And it would be great if everybody that actually have a G90 would help ilustrating that, and even better if you have a alternative CRT projector as well.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 02:31:18 AM by stridsvognen »
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

Re: SONY G90
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2017, 02:36:08 AM »
It would actually be quite easy to demonstrate the difference with screenshots.. Here is a example from the last days, where i shot a standard and a moddet marquee netflix streaming running 195Mhz, both are fast setups, the last/ moddet did not focus as well, think the glycol might be getting bad, same comparison is easy made with a G90.. Forget about colors and calibration.. just look at the contrast and detail level.

The G90 will do a nice 1:1 pattern, but if you study the pattern closely or if you would scope the signal you would notice a lot of peaking distortion.. Thats just how that is, and a standard Marquee look just as bad when peaked to look the same on pattern, and i dont see any standard CRT that have any decent out of black performance.. You might think its reference, i think its bad, but that dont change that we each like what we like, but at the end of the day i very much doubt you would pick differently than me if looking on the same 2 projectors, the biggest problem is that thae Marquee normaly fails to perform a decent image, and there is a huge pile of options as it feels like there is no 2 the same Marquee, and the G90 is a G90, its like always the same.. So its consistent performance no doubt about that.

And i also stated multiple times that if the choise came between the G90 and a good digital, i would most likely go digital.

The compartment you show gives me a indication that one is TERRIBLE wrong adjusted, easy to see.
And the mods form MP does nothing?  like you say: "So my question is what is the mods do.?" For just some time ago the MP mods where the best in the world.  What happened?
I wonder the same after seeing his pictures.
This because he does little to get the max out of his projector and how to show what his mods do, like I see it.

And different camera, different screen, different calibration, different shutter time on cam, different camera! adjustments, camera knowledge,  different qualifications on adjusting inn the CRT will this affect the picture?.
Answer is YES much.
Not hard to see that your Marquee is more correct adjusted and also better focus and picture skills.
And what so ever Contrast cant be judged form a photo :)

Out of black performance on CRT is also "knowledge" about what to do to get it right. Even on Barco/G90
The G90 does this 100% perfect what I measured and saw.

And your "opinion" (And i also stated multiple times that if the choice came between the G90 and a good digital, I would most likely go digital.) I cant agree/disagree to your statement.  ;)
I have other preferences than CRT.

I will say it like this, if you like how the Marquee CRT give out the picture stick with that, same with Barco or G90 today in 2017.
Most important to enjoy your hobby. I would put money on,  that if you got someone that really know G90 to set it up correct, then to the same light output and same preference calibrated standards, same player and settings like your Marquee the differences would be minor in a instant switch.  And you and me can easy get a G90 to look better than a Marquee or the otter way around. That is just how we like the test to come out. That's why many factors have to be in place, to do this right. Also have no favor in technology or brand, and accept the outcome even if you don't like it.






Re: SONY G90
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2017, 03:29:38 AM »
The MP mods i had was always repaired/ further improved by myself, and thinking back i actually never had a set of pure MP neckboards, as they always seemed to be problematic.

Now regarding the G90 VS Marquee, the hole difference is the analog videochain. The G90 is good from a standard CRT projector standpoint.. But its pretty locked up regarding improvements as the bottlenecks in the videochain design calls for a hole new videochain wich might not be so simple.. The Marquee pretty much sucks standard, but the way they made the videochain makes it possible to make it perform like no other CRT.. And that do make a difference.. One thing is what you measure. but no measurement can tell you if you have a good or bad image.. A G90 might have around 100Mhz peaked bandwidth, they pretty much is all 75-100Mhz.. The marquee can be made to do a 250Mhz bandwidth better than any of the others do 100Mhz.. And yes that is a bit like comparing a 720P to a 1080P projector on resolution, no matter how sharp the 720P projector is it just wont help it to display the detail level of a 1080P source.. Thats not rocket sience.. Then there is other parameters like contrast wich on -crt is very much tied together with videochain performance, as noise will easily put a kind of invisible haze/ layer of light on top of the image, might bump up the light output, but at the same time lower the contrast.. I think quite some of the light output in the G90 is comming from noise, and some might be whatever light the tubes can transmit to each other in the chassis not having closed light sheldings on the rear end of the tubes. Sure the G90 is the best if its the best you have ever seen.. And yes the most of the Marquee projectors looks quite bad, moddet or not.. Im documenting a difference using the same conditions, same cameraman camera and everything else except the projector.. And ill do the same setting up the G90.. Now adjusting the G90 might be a bit funky as its not very intuitive to use.. But its still not rocket sience, as it has a drive and G2 for each tube and a gamma feature.. And thats pretty much that.. Sure it sounds much better to claim its setup by a expert.. Ill think the only person having the right to claim that would be Craig Rounds.. And try ask him what was the best CRT projector he have ever seen.

Limited experience or understanding of other than what you have or have seen dont realy help much in convincing others that what you have is the best. So ill recommend you to leave the one CRT vs another debate to those who actualy have and run multiple CRT projectors, as its kind of waste of time for us who have to argue the case with some that dont have any kind of documentation or testing to offer.

I started this thread to potentialy improve the G90 with the help of Gjakys very interesting videochain, if possible.. And lift it to outperform the Marquee.. Your welcome to join, but first you must go get a G90 and even better a Marquee to, and understand how that one works, and how to work around its issues.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 03:41:52 AM by stridsvognen »
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

Re: SONY G90
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2017, 05:46:47 AM »
Yes this G90 is nice, and the setup i got to see when i picked it up as PJ was spot on.  :)

What player/ Blueray player du you use?

Re: SONY G90
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2017, 07:03:29 AM »


Can wait to see it in real life Strids, Per J and me wait for a invitation in your Cinema.
Will be nice to se a great Marquee that I know is calibrated and set up correct .  You are also of course welcome to Norway but at the time we have no CRT up and running..


Re: SONY G90
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2017, 08:35:19 AM »
the biggest problem is that thae Marquee normaly fails to perform a decent image, and there is a huge pile of options as it feels like there is no 2 the same Marquee, and the G90 is a G90, its like always the same.. So its consistent performance no doubt about that.

That is the truth; no two Marquees are the same and squeaking the max levelof performance requires a lot of time and parts and most importantly patience.  G90's are consistent but thus far have not been as tweakable.

Kurt is the only person I know of that is capable of displaying both models in the same environment.  Maybe he should acquire or fabricate a giant 15' wide 1.0 gain screen and fire both PJ's onto it simultaneously; would be pretty cool.  I think that would warant a meet 8)

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