AVS Discussions
Misc. Video => Video Processors => Topic started by: ARROW-AV on June 13, 2020, 11:56:45 PM
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Hi everyone,
This thread is for discussing the new and upcoming madVR Envy Video Processor.
There are a number of these out in the field now, with beta testers, as well as early adopters.
I myself have a madVR Envy Extreme.
We have been carrying out some direct A-B comparisons between the madVR Envy Extreme and a madVR HTPC, as well as the Lumagen PRO, with some surprising results.
The biggest surprise is the fact that an HTPC using the free madVR software currently significantly outperforms the madVR Envy Extreme with respect to video performance.
Furthermore, it's not just me. I know of at least THREE other people who have independently arrived at exactly the same conclusions.
A variety of appropriately selected content has been used. Projectors include the likes of JVC RS4500/Z1, JVC RS3000/NX9 and RGB Laser Projector. Source devices include the flagship $2,449 Pioneer UDP-LX800, OPPO 205, OPPO 203, and Kaleidescape Strato, all set to the optimum settings.
It has been discussed over on AVSForum the fact that the difference in video performance is in part due to the fact that the native pure 24p 4:2:0 video signal cannot be passed directly via HDMI and due to the limitations of HDMI this has to be upscaled to 4:2:2 such that it can be outputted to the madVR Envy and that this process reduces the video image quality.
However, this in itself does not explain the magnitude of the comparative difference in video performance that we (and others) are observing.
It has also come to light and has been previously discussed openly on AVSForum that within the madVR Envy Extreme, despite the name this does not contain the best, most powerful Nvidia GPU as of right now, namely the RTX TITAN. It does not contain the lesser model below this either, namely the RTX 2080ti. It contains a model below this.
Furthermore, there are potentially other factors at play here as well, including additonal items such as HDMI cables, and an HDMI input video capture card, which do not feature within a madVR HPTC.
Hence, there are a number of contributing factors the summation of which results in the video performance of an HTPC with the free madVR software being significantly superior as compared with a madVR Envy Extreme.
Is there anyone else who has experienced the same thing?
What does everyone think about this? :-\
I should add that I genuinely wish for the madVR Envy to succeed, however this difference is being referred to as being "insignificant" by a certain someone over on AVSForum, and I cannot fathom why. I personally has tremendous respect for this person, they are one of the most knowledgeable people that I know regarding A/V. However, as a consequence the validity of this particular point is being viewed with a lesser importance than it should be.
Personally, my ONLY motivation here is to achieve the absolute ultimate in AV performance. And this is the goal of our customers as well.
I personally have been extremely supportive of the madVR Envy and initially posted overwhelmingly positive first impressions, and as per usual I am completely impartial and unbiased here. At the present time we have decided not to jump on board and sell the product due to work still needing to be done, however, if or when the product development progresses in a positive direction, and the business side of things solidifies, then we may very well do so.
The fact of the matter is that we should all be able to discuss both the positives and negatives of A/V products in a relaxed manner. And IMO these sorts of discussions are important, especially when there appears to be a difference of opinions with respect to a very small amount of data points as of right now.
So has anyone else also carried out A-B comparisons between an HTPC using the free madVR software and the madVR Envy? If so, what is your feedback regarding the comparative video performance?
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I myself have had the opportunity to do direct comparisons of the madVR Envy and a well setup High-End HTPC.
The results in respect to the Envy unit are not at all flattering considering its projected retail pricetag.
Basically it boils down to the HTPC having considerably better video performance than the Envy Extreme. those who have viewed the comparisons between the HTPC and the Envy Extreme conclusivley agreed .
Just a note here though.....the above observations are purely in reference to outright image quality.
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I myself have had the opportunity to do direct comparisons of the madVR Envy and a well setup High-End HTPC.
The results in respect to the Envy unit are not at all flattering considering its projected retail pricetag.
Basically it boils down to the HTPC having considerably better video performance than the Envy Extreme. those who have viewed the comparisons between the HTPC and the Envy Extreme conclusivley agreed .
Just a note here though.....the above observations are purely in reference to outright image quality.
Ease of use probably doesn't go to the HTPC I imagine.
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Hi everyone,
This thread is for discussing the new and upcoming madVR Envy Video Processor.
There are a number of these out in the field now, with beta testers, as well as early adopters.
I myself have a madVR Envy Extreme.
We have been carrying out some direct A-B comparisons between the madVR Envy Extreme and a madVR HTPC, as well as the Lumagen PRO, with some surprising results.
The biggest surprise is the fact that an HTPC using the free madVR software currently significantly outperforms the madVR Envy Extreme with respect to video performance.
Furthermore, it's not just me. I know of at least THREE other people who have independently arrived at exactly the same conclusions.
A variety of appropriately selected content has been used. Projectors include the likes of JVC RS4500/Z1, JVC RS3000/NX9 and RGB Laser Projector. Source devices include the flagship $2,449 Pioneer UDP-LX800, OPPO 205, OPPO 203, and Kaleidescape Strato, all set to the optimum settings.
It has been discussed over on AVSForum the fact that the difference in video performance is in part due to the fact that the native pure 24p 4:2:0 video signal cannot be passed directly via HDMI and due to the limitations of HDMI this has to be upscaled to 4:2:2 such that it can be outputted to the madVR Envy and that this process reduces the video image quality.
However, this in itself does not explain the magnitude of the comparative difference in video performance that we (and others) are observing.
It has also come to light that within the madVR Envy Extreme, despite the name this does not contain the best, most powerful Nvidia GPU as of right now, namely the RTX TITAN. It does not contain the lesser model below this either, namely the RTX 2080ti. It contains a model below this.
Furthermore, there are potentially other factors at play here as well, including additonal items such as HDMI cables, and an HDMI input video capture card, which do not feature within a madVR HPTC.
Hence, there are a number of contributing factors the summation of which results in the video performance of an HTPC with the free madVR software being significantly superior as compared with a madVR Envy Extreme.
Is there anyone else who has experienced the same thing?
What does everyone think about this? :-\
I should add that I genuinely wish for the madVR Envy to succeed, however this difference is being referred to as being "insignificant" by a certain someone over on AVSForum, and I cannot fathom why. I personally has tremendous respect for this person, they are one of the most knowledgeable people that I know regarding A/V. However, as a consequence the validity of this particular point is being viewed with a lesser importance than it should be.
Personally, my ONLY motivation here is to achieve the absolute ultimate in AV performance. And this is the goal of our customers as well.
I personally have been extremely supportive of the madVR Envy and initially posted overwhelmingly positive first impressions, and as per usual I am completely impartial and unbiased here. At the present time we have decided not to jump on board and sell the product due to work still needing to be done, however, if or when the product development progresses in a positive direction then we may very well do so.
The fact of the matter is that we should all be able to discuss both the positives and negatives of A/V products in a relaxed manner. And IMO these sorts of discussions are important, especially when there appears to be a difference of opinions with respect to a very small amount of data points as of right now.
So has anyone else also carried out A-B comparisons between an HTPC using the free software and the madVR Envy? If so, what is your feedback regarding the comparative video performance?
I don't game, but when I go to websites where you can buy custom high end gaming computers built to order, usually they spell out the parts and you have the option to upgrade the GPU, graphic cards etc. ( for more money ). I'm not sure why they aren't doing that with the Envy. Or considering the price, use the best at the time it's built as a running change.
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I posted this and much along the same lines over on the other forum, so I will repost it here...
madVR HTPC has the advantage of producing the best video performance, but with the disadvantage of being more complex to setup and use than a madVR Envy, and can't be used with streaming sources. To be perfectly honest I find it to be a colossal pain in the arse to setup up and maintain, however, without a doubt it offers the best video performance and significantly so.
Whereas, the madVR Envy has the disadvantage of producing comparatively inferior video performance, however this is potentially offset by the advantage of being simpler and easier to setup and use, and the fact that, unlike the madVR HTPC, it be used with ALL sources.
I should add that when viewing madVR Envy by itself it looks great. It's simply that the madVR HTPC's video performance is better. And it is only when doing A-B comparisons versus a madVR HTPC that you can see the difference in video performance, which is not something that is going to be done very often!
This pretty much sums it up.
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Ease of use probably doesn't go to the HTPC I imagine.
Ease of use with respect to the HTPC is a nightmare. This is the HUGE positive with respect to the madVR Envy.
The problem is that we and our customers want the absolute ultimate in video performance, with all sources. So we want to have our cake and eat it too! ;) ::)
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After having MAdVR running on my HTPC since day one...yes, that long, I knew that the HTPC set a bar so high that it would be huge for the Envy to overcome. Not saying it cannot be done but as more people are seeing, the HTPC is about as perfect direct source player as you can get.
Tweaking the HTPC is not that hard to properly set up but it does take time....but not over $6k hard...lol
When the new RTX 3080ti come out in August, you will be able to build the most kick ass HTPC ever for about $2500-3000....saving about $3000-7000 from the Envy. For that much $$$ I can spend a few days tweaking the HTPC even though my current HTPC is already tweaked perfectly so a new version will not require more than a couple of hours work.
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After having MAdVR running on my HTPC since day one...yes, that long, I knew that the HTPC set a bar so high that it would be huge for the Envy to overcome. Not saying it cannot be done but as more people are seeing, the HTPC is about as perfect direct source player as you can get.
Tweaking the HTPC is not that hard to properly set up but it does take time....but not over $6k hard...lol
When the new RTX 3080ti come out in August, you will be able to build the most kick ass HTPC ever for about $2500-3000....saving about $3000-7000 from the Envy. For that much $$$ I can spend a few days tweaking the HTPC even though my current HTPC is already tweaked perfectly so a new version will not require more than a couple of hours work.
The allure of the Envy is the HDMI input.
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After having MAdVR running on my HTPC since day one...yes, that long, I knew that the HTPC set a bar so high that it would be huge for the Envy to overcome. Not saying it cannot be done but as more people are seeing, the HTPC is about as perfect direct source player as you can get.
Tweaking the HTPC is not that hard to properly set up but it does take time....but not over $6k hard...lol
When the new RTX 3080ti come out in August, you will be able to build the most kick ass HTPC ever for about $2500-3000....saving about $4500-9500 from the Envy. For that much $$$ I can spend a few days tweaking the HTPC even though my current HTPC is already tweaked perfectly so a new version will not require more than a couple of hours work.
I just fixed that for you ;)
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I just fixed that for you ;)
WOW!!!! that much difference?!?! I'm out then. No way I can spend that much on it.
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WOW!!!! that much difference?!?! I'm out then. No way I can spend that much on it.
And then add to this the fact that the video performance of madVR HTPCs is significantly superior...
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I've concluded that instead of a madVR Video Processor which will always have the disadvantage versus a madVR HTPC for the aforementioned reasons, what they should have developed is a 'madVR Media Player' being akin to the madVR Envy but whilst also being the source device itself, as per a madVR HTPC, but which supports all disc formats as well as all streaming APPs including Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, Youtube etc...
This would yield the same identical superior video performance as a madVR HTPC but with all of the advantages of the madVR Envy. Hence the best of both worlds.
Such a product would have been unique and would not have had such direct competition from the likes of the Lumagen PRO.
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I've concluded that instead of a madVR Video Processor which will always have the disadvantage versus a madVR HTPC for the aforementioned reasons, what they should have developed is a 'madVR Media Player' being akin to the madVR Envy but whilst also being the source device itself, as per a madVR HTPC, but which supports all disc formats as well as all streaming APPs including Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, Youtube etc...
This would yield the same identical superior video performance as a madVR HTPC but with all of the advantages of the madVR Envy. Hence the best of both worlds.
Such a product would have been unique and would not have had such direct competition from the likes of the Lumagen PRO.
I'd guess that a device like that would take considerable resources to develop and market though.
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I've concluded that instead of a madVR Video Processor which will always have the disadvantage versus a madVR HTPC for the aforementioned reasons, what they should have developed is a 'madVR Media Player' being akin to the madVR Envy but whilst also being the source device itself, as per a madVR HTPC, but which supports all disc formats as well as all streaming APPs including Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, Youtube etc...
This would yield the same identical superior video performance as a madVR HTPC but with all of the advantages of the madVR Envy. Hence the best of both worlds.
Such a product would have been unique and would not have had such direct competition from the likes of the Lumagen PRO.
Hate being the Debbie-downer in the group but a media player with all those streaming services will never ever happen on ONE app. And the reason is as simple as DRM.
If you think having an HDCP license (like the one the Envy had to get) was tough, imagine having to deal with four or more completely different DRM schemes that are required for each of those services. Each of them wants to have their own method and NONE of them are anywhere close to be similar to others. There is no unified DRM scheme and that's just for the software...the hardware DRM requirements are 1000X worse. That's why most smaller media players have not even tried. And the big players like Nvidia have such a hard time that they just rely on each service's apps to avoid having to deal with hardware limitations.
To quote a very good analogy... "Copy Protection: A clever method of preventing incompetent pirates from copying & legitimate owners from using."
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I've concluded that instead of a madVR Video Processor which will always have the disadvantage versus a madVR HTPC for the aforementioned reasons, what they should have developed is a 'madVR Media Player' being akin to the madVR Envy but whilst also being the source device itself, as per a madVR HTPC, but which supports all disc formats as well as all streaming APPs including Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, Youtube etc...
This would yield the same identical superior video performance as a madVR HTPC but with all of the advantages of the madVR Envy. Hence the best of both worlds.
Such a product would have been unique and would not have had such direct competition from the likes of the Lumagen PRO.
It is the streaming service companies that build the Apps that are installed to players. The player manufacturers have to convince the streaming provider to build one for their platform.
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It is the streaming service companies that build the Apps that are installed to players. The player manufacturers have to convince the streaming provider to build one for their platform.
So how do all the various devices, such as ROKU and ZAPPITI etc. support literally ALL streaming service apps, everything from Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, Youtube etc..? Excuse my ignorance in this regard, I am not an expert when it comes to this particular subject.
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So how do all the various devices, such as ROKU and ZAPPITI etc. support literally ALL streaming service apps, everything from Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, Youtube etc..? Excuse my ignorance in this regard, I am not an expert when it comes to this particular subject.
Probably a licensing arrangement. More money needed on the front end I'll bet !
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So how do all the various devices, such as ROKU and ZAPPITI etc. support literally ALL streaming service apps, everything from Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, Youtube etc..? Excuse my ignorance in this regard, I am not an expert when it comes to this particular subject.
Zappiti and Zidoo do not have streaming services unless they run a verified Android system. Anything else will be a hacked add-on. And even those maybe be limited to subpar 480p or 720p streams.
The problem is that to run those services you need verified and required hardware that make those players nearly impossible to modify. Completely closed systems is pretty much a requirement. How many times have we seen media players lose services due to hardware limitations of new app versions?...looking at you Roku.
This is the reason why Kodi add-ons for Netflix are limited to 720p and sometimes 480p. They are pretty much modified add-ons that are not fully endorsed by the services or are using a modified web based player that are limited to 480p.
The worst thing MadVR LLC can do is attempt to have streaming services as that rabbit hole that is so deep that it will surely end in disaster.
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Zappiti and Zidoo do not have streaming services unless they run a verified Android system. Anything else will be a hacked add-on. And even those maybe be limited to subpar 480p or 720p streams.
The problem is that to run those services you need verified and required hardware that make those players nearly impossible to modify. Completely closed systems is pretty much a requirement. How many times have we seen media players lose services due to hardware limitations of new app versions?...looking at you Roku.
This is the reason why Kodi add-ons for Netflix are limited to 720p and sometimes 480p. They are pretty much modified add-ons that are not fully endorsed by the services or are using a modified web based player that are limited to 480p.
The worst thing MadVR LLC can do is attempt to have streaming services as that rabbit hole that is so deep that it will surely end in disaster.
Yikes! I had no idea it was such a minefield! We subcontract all our control system stuff to a third party who specialize in all of this, which includes all the streaming stuff. Clearly this was a good decision! 😲
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Maybe I'm just lucky but I don't have many issues with my HTPC for my theater. I would say it's no less of a hassle than many of the Blu-ray players and smart TV implementations that I've used over the years. Nothing is really hassle free in my experience. The key is to turn off Windows update and use an older validated graphics driver known to be free of issues. Most of the driver updates for GPUs are for improvements to performance in video games, so having the latest drivers is not important.
I have my HTPC setup so I can pop a UHD Blu-ray disc in my tray and it will automatically start playing with no intervention on my part. It works like a regular Blu-ray player in this aspect. I mostly rip my discs to my PC though and when guests are over, I show them my collection through Kodi, which sort of looks and functions like a kaleidescape server.
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I have my HTPC setup so I can pop a UHD Blu-ray disc in my tray and it will automatically start playing with no intervention on my part.
Dylan, I am not understanding something for HTPC. Are there actual UHD BD players for HTPC's or do you use a standard BD player that will read and play UHD BD discs somehow with software? I want to get into MadVR but, I don't want to rip discs right away and want to just be able to play a UHD disc in the HTPC.
I was looking at the Steiger Dynamic HTPC's but, not sure how to configure when it comes to the above. Thanks.
https://www.steigerdynamics.com/products-maven-htpc-configure (https://www.steigerdynamics.com/products-maven-htpc-configure)
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You need a UHD "friendly" BD drive, not an official UHD drive. You have to flash the friendly drive with older firmware since their "friendliness" has been disabled by the manufactures in drives with current firmware.
Then you need software such as AnyDVD HD to decrypt the UHD disc loaded in the friendly drive.
I use JRiver with MadVR to play folder backups of my UHD discs, but I can also play the disc directly from the drive. I sometimes have to wait a couple of weeks for AnyDVD HD to get an update to decrypt a newly released disc.
I have not made any changes to my HTPC configuration since I upgraded the JRiver version in January. I power up the HTCP into Windows 10. I have JRiver launched automatically and display a cover flow of all the backed up UHD discs. I choose a disc and select play that brings up the same disc menus that you would see with a UHD disc player. I use a Media Center remote to navigate to discs, and select audio options.
With official UHD drives, you need specific Intel CPU/motherboards and Windows 10 with PowerDVD combination that supports the DRM and has ability to decrypt the disc just like a UHD disc player does.
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You need a UHD "friendly" BD drive, not an official UHD drive. You have to flash the friendly drive with older firmware since their "friendliness" has been disabled by the manufactures in drives with current firmware.
Then you need software such as AnyDVD HD to decrypt the UHD disc loaded in the friendly drive.
I use JRiver with MadVR to play folder backups of my UHD discs, but I can also play the disc directly from the drive. I sometimes have to wait a couple of weeks for AnyDVD HD to get an update to decrypt a newly released disc.
I have not made any changes to my HTPC configuration since I upgraded the JRiver version in January. I power up the HTCP into Windows 10. I have JRiver launched automatically and display a cover flow of all the backed up UHD discs. I choose a disc and select play that brings up the same disc menus that you would see with a UHD disc player. I use a Media Center remote to navigate to discs, and select audio options.
With official UHD drives, you need specific Intel CPU/motherboards and Windows 10 with PowerDVD combination that supports the DRM and has ability to decrypt the disc just like a UHD disc player does.
Hey claw, Thanks a bunch! 8)
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So haven’t heard much on this thing. Any word on it. Any good? How does it compare to the lumagen?
Seems overpriced to me. Idk
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With my new HTPC (RTX3080TI) madvr cranked at max it outperform my ENVY by far. still a lot of work to tune but personally i don't care been a long time madvr user i can easily manage all the tweaks. The thing is that with the hardware improving every years it is more flexible to upgrade by yourself using what you really need.
I will try to sell it (ENVY Extreme) but i am afraid that it was already too late to recover my money.:-\
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It seems the envy is still lacking in a quite a few features. And they are VERY slow
At rolling them out.
I could
Be wrong tho
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man this thing is expensive. ill stick to the LRP
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It seems the envy is still lacking in a quite a few features. And they are VERY slow
At rolling them out.
I could
Be wrong tho
man this thing is expensive. ill stick to the LRP
If you're happy with the Lumagen, and it's meeting your needs, then there's little need for you to consider switching.
But in the interest of providing accurate information, I wanted to make a comment or two:
Regarding cost, there are 2 models: the Pro at $7,995 and the Extreme at $13,495. I'm not that familiar with the Lumagen pricing, but others have commented that a well-configured Lumagen could be in the same ballpark as the Pro model. But if that's not accurate, I'm happy to be corrected.
Regarding missing features, which the Lumagen has that the Envy doesn't, I'm not aware of any, so if you could identify what you've heard, I'd be interested. There are couple of differences in basic design that would make particular people not good candidates for the Envy, so perhaps that's what you've heard? The Envy, by design, has a 200ms input lag, to allow time for its processing, so avid gamers would not want to use the Envy in-line for gaming. And some like to use the Lumagen for its multiple video inputs. The Envy simply goes between the AVR/Pre-Pro and Projector. Neither design strategy is 'right', it's just a question of what best serves a given person's needs.
Lastly, on feature roll-out, I would have to respectfully disagree. I've had my Envy for coming up on 2 years, and in the first year alone, they added a wide variety of features: instantaneous aspect ratio detection, a very sophisticated and intelligent strategy for managing subtitles, the 'Profile' system which allows for powerful yet easy configuration and customization of features, Non Linear Stretch, and Geometry Correction to eliminate the barrel (or pincushion) distortion associated with the use of anamorphic lenses.
Mathias has been extremely busy this year working on the next major feature upgrade: AI-based Motion/Frame Interpolation. The idea is to enable smoother motion without the almost inevitable artifacts resulting in its implementation in projectors. This will likely be released in the next few months.
They're also adding IP control of JVC (and Sony, I think, not 100% sure) projectors, direct from the Envy. And there are many other enhancements of the video processing being worked on as well.
Again, I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything; I just wanted to clarify at least my understanding on these matters.
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The lack of features post is an old one. It was at the time it didn’t have auto aspect.
And a lumagen is $4000. (Retail is a bit higher but no where near $8k and almost no one pays msrp)
I’m sure it’s a nice unit. Just way overpriced and too new imho
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Thanks for the reply.
It did get me curious about pricing, since I know I have heard it can run much higher than that, depending on which model, how many inputs/outputs, etc. So I did a little digging so I would know for sure, and came across this PDF from Jim Peterson himself:
The Radiance Pro 5348 is meant as the premier Radiance Pro product and as such commands a premium price. The retail for the Radiance Pro 5348-USB is $9495 USD.
Here (http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_Pro_5348_Introduction.pdf) is the link to this document. Clearly there are less expensive models, but some are more expensive than the Envy Pro.
And you are correct, it is a new product, and as such there is some associated risk, which I do understand. And it's something that I pondered a couple of years ago, when trying to decide between the two. I'm generally risk averse, but personally felt comfortable giving them a try. Two years later, and things have just gotten better and better.
And there is a benefit side in being new that counter-balances this. The User Interface of the Envy is incredibly user-friendly, making for a very modern experience. One example of this is the Firmware update process. I have read descriptions of how this is done with the Lumagen, and it is cumbersome and a bit archaic at best - download and unzip the file, establish a connection, pick com ports, baud rates, etc. This process really reflects its age, and not in a good way.
With the Envy, you call up the Firmware page in its Menu with a click or two, and then select Update. It takes anywhere from 15 seconds to 30 seconds and you're done. This is done completely through its ethernet connection, and requires no extra gear or devices. It couldn't be easier. This reflects its modern design.
Again, I am definitely not trying to persuade you about anything, and am honestly not wanting to be argumentative. But for those who read this forum, who might be considering one of these processors, I think it's important that they have all the relevant information, on both devices, so they can make a truly informed decision. I am a retired physician, and the concept of Informed Consent is still a very important part of my approach to life. Put all the facts out there, so people have what they need to decide what is best for them.
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i completly understand your position. from everything i read the envy is a great unit..and super easy to use/setup. that alone might be worth the premium for some.
yes the higest model of LRP is $8k but not necessary and VERY diminished returns imho. (read that as i doubt 99% of people would notice a difference)
cant go wrong with either at this point. and its goods to have options