AVS Discussions

Projectors => Premium Projectors => Topic started by: Dylan Seeger on October 01, 2017, 12:27:04 AM

Title: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 01, 2017, 12:27:04 AM
I just picked up a 285ES that popped up on Amazon. I should have it Wednesday according to Amazon Prime's delivery date estimate.

I would like to check out whether or not any of the issues I have with 4K SXRD have been addressed or lessened since the 665ES I had last. I may have to get in touch with Mirodk on "the other" forum somehow to get instructions from him again on what needs to be disabled to get rid of the factory set convergence which will lessen some of these artifacts. Anyone mind doing me a favor?

A lot of my sensing equipment is boxed up from my recent move, but I'll do my best to do a few measurements granted I find all of my equipment!  :-X
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Javs on October 01, 2017, 03:01:14 AM
I just picked up a 285ES that popped up on Amazon. I should have it Wednesday according to Amazon Prime's delivery date estimate.

I would like to check out whether or not any of the issues I have with 4K SXRD have been addressed or lessened since the 665ES I had last. I may have to get in touch with Mirodk on "the other" forum somehow to get instructions from him again on what needs to be disabled to get rid of the factory set convergence which will lessen some of these artifacts. Anyone mind doing me a favor?

A lot of my sensing equipment is boxed up from my recent move, but I'll do my best to do a few measurements granted I find all of my equipment!  :-X

Ill reach out to him for the instructions how to do it.

Man I hop you can take some half decent pics, would love to see yours and mine favourite monkey shot!!! And the jacket of the Korean gangster to see if the moire is gone.

Looking forward to this one.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 01, 2017, 10:42:04 AM
Ill reach out to him for the instructions how to do it.

Man I hop you can take some half decent pics, would love to see yours and mine favourite monkey shot!!! And the jacket of the Korean gangster to see if the moire is gone.

Looking forward to this one.

Thanks Javs! He gave me the instrructuons a long time ago when I had the 665ES but I can't access the PM to get it.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on October 01, 2017, 11:32:27 AM
This should be interesting ! Looking forward to your results.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 01, 2017, 01:33:28 PM
I'm excited to see if this new lens has better focus uniformity across the image.  In the center of the image on the previous 6xx models I've seen, pixel definition was generally very good but that performance trailed off as you got towards the edge of the image. One could make the argument that it would be next to impossible to see this issue with real world video content and Id agree, but at the price point of those earlier 6xx models ($15000 USD) it should have been performing better to at least the same level or better than the cheaper models offered from Epson and JVC.

I would also hope to see better native contrast, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: DavidHir on October 01, 2017, 07:54:03 PM
Definitely looking forward to your feedback.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: DavidHir on October 01, 2017, 11:33:15 PM
Does this have a manual iris?  It's not like the 45ES I presume.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Paul Heroy on October 02, 2017, 10:49:33 AM
Projector Central review is up: http://www.projectorcentral.com/sony-vpl-vw285es-4k-projector-review.htm?em

Looks outstanding.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 02, 2017, 10:50:04 AM
Does this have a manual iris?  It's not like the 45ES I presume.

It has a fixed iris in the lens that is not adjustable. The only way to alter lumen output is to change the lamp setting. Or if someone was really desperate, they could always take advantage of zoom on the lens to alter how many lumens are leaving the projector.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: stanger89 on October 02, 2017, 12:27:15 PM
Projector Central review is up: http://www.projectorcentral.com/sony-vpl-vw285es-4k-projector-review.htm?em

Looks outstanding.

Everything Projector Central reviews sounds outstanding, unless it's "expensive" and then they do their best to make it sound like a waste of money.  $5000 is pretty high on their price scale to really like, but I guess they're just excited about "native 4K".

Interesting that when they took contrast out of the equation, they found the XPR BenQ 8050 to be sharper than the 285.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on October 02, 2017, 12:56:26 PM
A good review ( looking forward to more reviews), but with 1300 lumens ( 900+ in low lamp ), watch your screen size !
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 02, 2017, 05:41:31 PM
A good review ( looking forward to more reviews), but with 1300 lumens ( 900+ in low lamp ), watch your screen size !

It's interesting to see Sony do this with the 285ES and 385ES. Knowing that HDR requires a lot of brightness it's odd to see Sony lower lumen output instead of lowering the performance in other areas. Considering that eshift on the JVCs is already so good, it might be difficult to recommend this over a JVC. We're seeing more lumens, more contrast, more color saturation with very similar subjective image detail, but also a way to fine tune HDR via custom curves on the similarly priced JVCs.. It would be interesting to directly compare HDR between the two.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on October 02, 2017, 07:12:51 PM
An RS620 / 640 is nearly as bright in low lamp as the VW285 is in high lamp !
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 02, 2017, 08:13:46 PM
Just got an email confirming that Amazon has shipped my 285ES. Should be here on the 4th!
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on October 02, 2017, 09:47:27 PM
Interested in hearing your thoughts on the 285. :)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 04, 2017, 07:37:14 PM
285ES aquired!

(https://i.imgur.com/rPY1kEU.jpg?1)

Javs, any word on those instructions? I can't remember which setting needs to be disabled in the service menu to get rid of some of these artifacts. I already pulled up the internal test patterns in the service menu and can confirm those odd snake lines and banding are there.  I just have it shooting on a wall at work at the moment, but will have it on a proper screen in a few hours to take a closer look. Don't pay attention to the moire as that was added by my cell phone. Proper images from a Canon DSLR will come to follow once I get home:

(https://i.imgur.com/5BAtOF2.jpg?1)

I can't really say much about this supposed "overhauled new lens system" as I've seen posted on the other forum. The false hyperbole really needs to be put in check. It looks to be the same lens with better quality control. In fact, I would say my 285ES is worse off at resolving individual pixels than both of the previous 665ES units here that had the supposed "worse" lens. Again though, I'll wait to make that final judgement until I see this on a proper screen. I think Kris Deering made an excellent point, in that  even the Sony reps at CEDIA were hesitant on saying that this was a better "new" lens. Same lens it seems with less variability on quality. Yes that's better for the end users buying these units but it does not seem to be a lens that has better resolving power.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on October 04, 2017, 07:47:09 PM
Looking forward to your report !
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 04, 2017, 08:09:03 PM
Javs, never mind.  I found the setting. For anyone looking to disable the zone convergence correction software to reduce some of these image artifacts here's what you do.

On your remote press "Enter, Enter, Left, Enter". You'll see a window pop up asking if you'd like to continue. Confirm you want to proceed as this enables you to enter the service menu. Press  "Menu" on your remote. You'll now see a new submenu item listed called "Device". Press "Up" then "Enter" to go into this menu. Scroll down and highlight the "Display Engine" option and press "Enter". You'll see a new window pop up. Continue to press "Down" on your remote until you reach something that says "21 AREG/SERVICE ON". Press "Left" on your remote to change this setting from "1" to "0". By doing this you're disabling the zone convergence correction software. Press "Enter" on your remote to return to the main menu of the service menu. Scroll down to "Save to memory", press "Enter" and confirm that you want to make these changes. If you don't do this, the next time you restart your projector it will not have the zone convergence correction disabled. With that said, DO NOT make any other changes to the other settings in the service menu as you run the risk of doing damage or screwing up how the projector functions. I will not be held responsible for those who go in, make other changes, and damage their projector.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Javs on October 04, 2017, 10:22:47 PM
Javs, never mind.  I found the setting. For anyone looking to disable the zone convergence correction software to reduce some of these image artifacts here's what you do.

On your remote press "Enter, Enter, Left, Enter". You'll see a window pop up asking if you'd like to continue. Confirm you want to proceed as this enables you to enter the service menu. Press  "Menu" on your remote. You'll now see a new submenu item listed called "Device". Press "Up" then "Enter" to go into this menu. Scroll down and highlight the "Display Engine" option and press "Enter". You'll see a new window pop up. Continue to press "Down" on your remote until you reach something that says "21 AREG/SERVICE ON". Press "Left" on your remote to change this setting from "1" to "0". By doing this you're disabling the zone convergence correction software. Press "Enter" on your remote to return to the main menu of the service menu. Scroll down to "Save to memory", press "Enter" and confirm that you want to make these changes. If you don't do this, the next time you restart your projector it will not have the zone convergence correction disabled. With that said, DO NOT make any other changes to the other settings in the service menu as you run the risk of doing damage or screwing up how the projector functions. I will not be held responsible for those who go in, make other changes, and damage their projector.

Yeah he never got back to me as yet, good to see you found the setting!
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 05, 2017, 01:48:47 AM
Just a quick update before bed. Here are some out of the box measurements made in Reference mode, which is the most color accurate mode on this unit,  with my Minolta CL200:

Brightness (max zoom):
     Low Lamp: 948 Lumens
     High Lamp: 1278 Lumens

On/Off Contrast:
     Minimum Zoom: 17,826:1
     Maximum Zoom: 12,989:1
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 05, 2017, 02:31:02 AM
As noted in the first post of this thread, I really wanted to take a look to see if some of the issues I had with previous 4K SXRD projectors have been fixed or at least lessened. I can say from a quick look that they've been lessened compared to previous models I've seen. These models are the 1000ES, 1100ES, 600ES, and two separate 665ES projectors. It's known that the 5000ES received an updated firmware after several people had complained of excessive banding within the image. Based on what the few 5000ES owners I've talked to told me, they saw the same thing I'm seeing here with this 285ES after the firmware update; still there, but artifacts not as bad. So it seems this update to correct issues trickled down to the lower end models too. I think all but the pickiest of people will be happy. In this regard, I'm picky. This is especially so before this year where the cheapest 4K SXRD unit was priced at $10,000. It was not an issue I thought should be there on such an expensive piece of equipment. For $5000? Maybe this is an acceptable price for there to be image artifacts such as these in the image. Personally speaking, I'm still not entirely wow'ed by these 4K projectors from Sony. I really had hoped this issue would have been completely taken care of by now. This is my personal take on the matter. Yours may be different.

The lens does not seem to be better. As I said earlier, and can now confirm after seeing this on a proper screen, pixels are not rendered better with this "new" lens. I think Kris Deering got the right information gleaned from the Sony reps attitude and responses when asked about this lens. This seems like more of a better QC control situation rather than a "new" lens as several others seem to be talking about on the other forum. I think this whole "new" lens thing boils down to less variability in lens quality. I think if this was a genuinely new lens we'd be hearing and reading all about it in Sony's literature for these projectors. This unit is actually a bit worse than the two previous 665ES units I had here as far as how well this lens can focus down on single pixels.

I also got a chance to look at some test patterns to see how well this can do single pixel information. As noted previously, the zone convergence correction software should be disabled in the service menu if the end user (or dealer) is willing to do it. It really helps clean things up. I feel too many people worry about how well their panels are converged, especially when we're talking about zone correction. It really is not needed, especially when we can avoid artifacts like this if it's enabled:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/119519

With the zone correction off in the service menu, you can still use the global pixel correction software in the regular menu without adding these artifacts. The single pixel correction is more than enough. You're never going to be able to see misconvergence from a seated distance if you set the global pixel correction up. Again, zone (and less than whole) pixel correction is not needed.

As far as the single pixel test portion of that test pattern goes, I would actually recommend turning off Reality Creation (RC) as it adds some artifacts to the image that shouldn't be there (green and pink banding on any grey colored portions of the screen). While this banding is not visible in these shots, other grey squares on this test pattern did show very visible banding that should not have been there:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/119521

So if you turn off RC and have the sharpness setting set to 10, this can do single pixel information, not perfectly, but adequately enough that from a seated distance I don't think there would be a visible loss in resolution. I did highlight some "fringing" where it seems the panels were getting some off-shooting information sent to them that made pixels past the squares turn green or pink where they shouldn't have been (they should have been white). I don't think this was added by the lens as the fringing wasn't along the entire edge.

Just to highlight what enabling RC does, adding some odd artifacts, you can clearly make out how it changes shades of grey in this shot:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/119522
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: DavidHir on October 05, 2017, 12:26:23 PM
Great feedback.

How is the overall grey uniformity and any bright corner (black uniformity) issues?

Also, do you happen to have a JVC to do any A/B comparisons to the Sony with UHD BD content?
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 05, 2017, 12:39:29 PM
Great feedback.

How is the overall grey uniformity and any bright corner (black uniformity) issues?

Also, do you happen to have a JVC to do any A/B comparisons to the Sony with UHD BD content?

I only had an hour or so with it last night before bed, but I will do a closer look into these areas over the next few days and report back. I have an RS400 here that I can do some comparisons to. Though the performance is very, very similar to a 665ES with the DI off and lamp in low mode. The huge difference is that now the price of these units are dramatically lower. If Sony can add a DI and maybe a little more contrast and brightness at this price point then I think this would be a killer deal. I had always thought these units were way over priced. Sony seems to be rectifying that issue.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on October 06, 2017, 07:09:47 PM
Hopefully more test info on Monday !
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 06, 2017, 07:23:49 PM
Hopefully more test info on Monday !

I recently moved and haven't finished setting up a proper viewing space yet. I just finished converting half a spare bedroom into a black pit area to put a screen up today. The other half of the room is hot pink. Must have been a girls bedroom before I moved in. Maybe at some point I'll paint it another color.  ::) I plan on mounting the screen to the wall sometime this weekend and then I can take a longer look.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on October 08, 2017, 12:11:03 PM
I recently moved and haven't finished setting up a proper viewing space yet. I just finished converting half a spare bedroom into a black pit area to put a screen up today. The other half of the room is hot pink. Must have been a girls bedroom before I moved in. Maybe at some point I'll paint it another color.  ::) I plan on mounting the screen to the wall sometime this weekend and then I can take a longer look.

Hot pink ! Now there is a theater color - for watching 1960's movies !!  ;D
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 08, 2017, 06:11:34 PM
Hot pink ! Now there is a theater color - for watching 1960's movies !!  ;D

Haha that is soon to be rectified. It's a little smaller than my previous theater space, but this new room is more than adequate now that I have some proper treatments up to soak up light in the room.  I have a fairly lengthy writeup coming soon.  A large portion of the write up is a comparison to the about to be released RS440 which we know a lot about based on the RS420 and RS400. This seems appropriate based on MSRP of each unit.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: woofer on October 09, 2017, 03:20:22 AM
Haha that is soon to be rectified. It's a little smaller than my previous theater space, but this new room is more than adequate now that I have some proper treatments up to soak up light in the room.  I have a fairly lengthy writeup coming soon.  A large portion of the write up is a comparison to the about to be released RS440 which we know a lot about based on the RS420 and RS400. This seems appropriate based on MSRP of each unit.

Looking forward to this..
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on October 09, 2017, 02:31:10 PM
Thanks Dylan. Looking forward to the in depth review.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: lygren on October 10, 2017, 03:52:16 PM
Just had a VW360 (VW385) installed in one of our demo rooms today and it´s certainly a nice machine... Will have the 260 / 285 installed tomorrow. We also had the VW760 (VW885) installed and calibrated.

In short, as for VW360;

1. Quite impressive blacks - albeit still not "JVC blacks", especially if compared to the X/RS7-9XX(X).

2. They have to have done something with their lenses, at least for this unit, sharpness was quite good... Still, if compared to - let´s say - JVC DLA-Z1 / RS4500, it might fall a bit short, but that´s a completely different league. 

3. As for HDR, I had to pull the "HDR contrast" all the way to 99 (out of 100), i.e. basically remove the entire effect - to leave enough light for the 10 ft wide screen. It´s simply not a HDR machine in my opinion, albeit it´s not only light output that is required in such regards as I do believe the DLA-X7500 (RS520) looks very well @ HDR with a bit of upward tone mapping applied to it. Still, using the new Sony UBP-X1000ES UHD player outputting HDR in SDR (maintaining 4K and 10-bit that is), it looked very very nice!

As for the laser VPL-VW760, there are several issues with the pre-production unit we have currently installed for this particular launch event, lens focus is off and there are some issues with the scaling and so on, but even so, it looks quite nice too on our 13 ft wide screen. Still, I can see quite the difference from the DLA-Z1 / RS4500 in terms of light output @ SDR (HDR is too dark anyhow...).

I´ll get back with more impressions after the event tomorrow! :)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on October 10, 2017, 05:09:12 PM
Just had a VW360 (VW385) installed in one of our demo rooms today and it´s certainly a nice machine... Will have the 260 / 285 installed tomorrow. We also had the VW760 (VW885) installed and calibrated.

In short, as for VW360;

1. Quite impressive blacks - albeit still not "JVC blacks", especially if compared to the X/RS7-9XX(X).

2. They have to have done something with their lenses, at least for this unit, sharpness was quite good... Still, if compared to - let´s say - JVC DLA-Z1 / RS4500, it might fall a bit short, but that´s a completely different league. 

3. As for HDR, I had to pull the "HDR contrast" all the way to 99 (out of 100), i.e. basically remove the entire effect - to leave enough light for the 10 ft wide screen. It´s simply not a HDR machine in my opinion, albeit it´s not only light output that is required in such regards as I do believe the DLA-X7500 (RS520) looks very well @ HDR with a bit of upward tone mapping applied to it. Still, using the new Sony UBP-X1000ES UHD player outputting HDR in SDR (maintaining 4K and 10-bit that is), it looked very very nice!

As for the laser VPL-VW760, there are several issues with the pre-production unit we have currently installed for this particular launch event, lens focus is off and there are some issues with the scaling and so on, but even so, it looks quite nice too on our 13 ft wide screen. Still, I can see quite the difference from the DLA-Z1 / RS4500 in terms of light output @ SDR (HDR is too dark anyhow...).

I´ll get back with more impressions after the event tomorrow! :)

Excellent - thank you for the report. I look forward to hearing more.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: lygren on October 11, 2017, 02:41:01 PM
So, we measured out on/off to about 12k:1 for VW285 (VW260) @ mid zoom and about 22k:1 for the VW385 (VW360) @ max zoom. The added "pop" from the iris on the VW385 was certainly visible to some extent. However, as they were installed in very different rooms, one using a 10ft (VW385) and the other 7ft (VW285) screen it´s really not fair to compare directly, they both look quite nice. Some sharpening artefacts are indeed apparent, and for people that like motion flow, it is not available in 4K as is the case for the VW760.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on October 12, 2017, 02:55:20 PM
Just had a VW360 (VW385) installed in one of our demo rooms today and it´s certainly a nice machine... Will have the 260 / 285 installed tomorrow. We also had the VW760 (VW885) installed and calibrated.

In short, as for VW360;

1. Quite impressive blacks - albeit still not "JVC blacks", especially if compared to the X/RS7-9XX(X).

2. They have to have done something with their lenses, at least for this unit, sharpness was quite good... Still, if compared to - let´s say - JVC DLA-Z1 / RS4500, it might fall a bit short, but that´s a completely different league. 

3. As for HDR, I had to pull the "HDR contrast" all the way to 99 (out of 100), i.e. basically remove the entire effect - to leave enough light for the 10 ft wide screen. It´s simply not a HDR machine in my opinion, albeit it´s not only light output that is required in such regards as I do believe the DLA-X7500 (RS520) looks very well @ HDR with a bit of upward tone mapping applied to it. Still, using the new Sony UBP-X1000ES UHD player outputting HDR in SDR (maintaining 4K and 10-bit that is), it looked very very nice!

As for the laser VPL-VW760, there are several issues with the pre-production unit we have currently installed for this particular launch event, lens focus is off and there are some issues with the scaling and so on, but even so, it looks quite nice too on our 13 ft wide screen. Still, I can see quite the difference from the DLA-Z1 / RS4500 in terms of light output @ SDR (HDR is too dark anyhow...).

I´ll get back with more impressions after the event tomorrow! :)

Thanks for your thoughts. :)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 12, 2017, 05:41:51 PM
RS4xx vs 285ES Comparison

(https://i.imgur.com/z8rWxDw.png)

       Sony’s VPL-VW285ES is the company’s newest, least expensive, 4K SXRD projector to date. There isn’t a whole lot new to say about this projector as it only offers some subtle changes to previous 3xx 4K SXRD projectors. The overall feel for it’s image quality remains much the same when comparing it to older 3xx Sony 4K projectors. The huge difference this year is how much money it costs to get the level of performance that, up until now, cost you 5-figures. It now costs you half as much money to jump into a native 4K projector at just $4999. Overall, the image quality on the 285ES is something to behold. Its image is bright, sharp, high contrast, with generally good video processing and excellent motion handling. There is very little to complain about with its image. There are only a handful of projectors out there that can match or best it’s image. Most of these projectors cost a lot more money. Near the price of this Sony, JVC’s DLA-RS440 is the closest in feature-set and performance. This is the only other projector you should have serious considerations for unless you have room in your budget for models costing much more. Such models include the Sony VPL-VW385ES ($7999), Sony VPL-VW 675ES ($14,999), JVC DLA-RS540 ($5999) or the Epson LS10500 ($7999).

       At this price point, Sony seems to be taking aim at JVCs DLA-RS440 with the 285ES. And that is what this write up is aimed to do; compare the 285ES to JVCs lowest end unit, the RS440. Priced at just a $1000 US above the RS440, you’re getting a true native 4K projector with much of the same support for UHD Blu-ray that the RS440 has. Based upon the price difference and feature set, this seems to be the appropriate comparison to make as I feel most people looking to spend about $5000 will only be looking at these models. I would like to spend the rest of this write up comparing the two. If you’re looking for more information about Sony specific features, I suggest reading a review for the 675ES as essentially all of these features (minus a couple, which will be discussed) have carried over to the 285ES. They have been talked to death in those reviews.

       Both the 285ES and RS440 offer support for HDR10, HLG HDR, wide color gamut and still support active 3D. Though offering true native 4K panels, the 285ES does have a few short falls compared to the RS440. This is mainly due in part to Sony offering two similarly equipped step up models, the 385ES and 675ES. Reductions in feature-set and performance needed to be made to justify the more expensive models. All three of these projectors use the vast majority of the same hardware components inside each. The 285ES is the most stripped down native 4K model Sony currently sells. The next model up, the 385ES at $8000, adds an iris in the lens which can be used as a manual iris, dynamic iris or a combination of both. This means the 285ES lacks black level control and contrast improvements via both manual and dynamic iris methods. With the 285ES, the only black level control you have is a lamp brightness setting, just low and high. The key difference here is that darker content look better on the more expensive Sony 4K projectors, thus justifying the increase in cost. You also lose out on a lens memory feature by going with the 285ES, which the pricier models support. Lens memory comes in handy for those with an anamorphic aspect ratio screen looking to easily switch between anamorphic and 16/9 content without the need for an anamorphic lens. Lastly, the 285ES also lacks the auto-calibration functionality that it’s two bigger brothers get. This allows you to tidy up the factory-set calibration after you’ve put hundreds or thousands of hours on your bulb.

        Price-wise I do think these were very appropriate things to take away from this projector to allow this unit to be priced at $4999. The only other area that might have been appropriate would have been a hit on lumen output, but at a maximum of 1200 calibrated lumens, I think Sony made the right move as HDR performance would have suffered greatly with less available light output. This is an area where the 675ES pulls ahead of both the 285ES and 385ES offering several hundred more lumens. This is due to the 280 watt lamp the 675ES gets over the 225 watt lamp found in both the 285ES and 385ES. If you’re looking into getting a better HDR experience and you have a big screen, say around 120” or larger, the 675ES (or a brighter JVC model) makes a lot more sense. As many will tell you, HDR and wide color gamut performance gives a far greater sense of improvement in image quality than the relatively small bump in fine detail you get on UHD blu-ray titles. Better performance in these areas is especially important for those looking to make a long term investment in their projector purchase in a world about the dominated by HDR. Unless you plan on upgrading every year or so, you may want to opt for a brighter projector as the future is going to be all about HDR. The 285ES is much more comfortable with it’s 1200 lumens of peak brightness with screens at 120” or smaller, or possibly a screen larger than this that has some positive gain.

   The RS440 does offer several things the 285ES does not. Those things would include a lens iris that can be used like the 385ES’ (manual, dynamic or both), around 600 more calibrated lumens, roughly double the native contrast and about an order of magnitude more dynamic contrast. Brightness and contrast capabilities are the biggest differences between these two models and are the things that will stick out most if you were to compare the two images next to each other. The RS440 also has lens memories, creative frame interpolation that works with a 4K source (the 285ES is limited to 1080p sources) and an auto-calibration suite with the option to upload custom gamma curves and custom color profiles offering greater HDR flexibility. I've also found that the JVC has a slightly nicer lens that has better focus uniformity and can focus on pixels better. The RS440 has two full-spec HDMI 2.0 ports which includes 18Gbps throughput. The 285ES has two proprietary HDMI 2.0 ports that only support 13.5Gbps throughput. 13.5Gbps is enough bandwidth to fully support UHD blu-ray as the specification stands now. This means UHD resolution at 60 frames per second at 10bit 4:2:0. However, the 285ES does introduce very visible banding within the image when a UHD/60p 10bit 4:2:0 signal is sent to the projector. It seems this is a video processing issue. Hopefully Sony can address this problem with a future firmware update. There is very little video content on UHD bluray encoded this way. So this issue should be more of a concern for gamers who want to take advantage of 4K HDR gaming at 60p. The JVC does not have any banding issues with this type of content sent to the projector.

       At the time of writing this, the RS440 is not out yet. I’m using the RS400 as a frame of reference here for the purposes of this comparison. The RS400 should be considered the same to the RS440 as far as brightness, contrast and color performance goes. We know it uses the same chassis, power supply, DiLA panels, lens, iris system, fans and lamp as the RS400. General performance is very similar, with the new eshift5 system being touted as having better 4K detail with 4K source material. That claim will have to be looked at more closely to see how accurate it actually is. The main differences between the RS400 and RS440 are mainly in newly developed software implementations. This would include a better MPC (Multiple Pixel Control) implementation that extracts more detail from a 4K source than it did on previous models. JVC says this new software was created based upon things they learned when creating their first consumer-based native 4K projector; the RS4500. The RS440 also includes a low-lag input mode for better gaming performance and an update to CMD (Clear Motion Drive) which fixes a processing issue where banding was added into the image.

        Native contrast is excellent on the 285ES, but is beat out by the RS440.  But this should not come as a surprise, as it’s been this way for years. JVC has almost always had a lead with on/off contrast. Placing the lens at the telephoto end of it’s zoom range, with my Minolta CL200 measuring towards the lens at around 8 inches away, the 285ES achieved 17,826:1 on/off contrast. At maximum zoom, under the same measuring conditions, the 285ES achieves 12,989:1 on/off contrast. The JVC RS400 measures in at 23,432:1 at the telephoto end of it’s zoom range and 16,834:1 at maximum zoom with it's lens iris fully open. Closing the iris manually allows for even greater native contrast, up to about 40000:1. The JVC has a dynamic iris which increases contrast dynamically to about 10 times it's native performance. With the DI engaged, the JVC had an obvious advantage in contrast when A/B'ing the two images on the same screen.

   Measuring lumen output, also with my Minolta CL200, shows that the 285ES is capable of 1221 lumens at maximum zoom in high lamp mode. Low lamp mode at maximum zoom, the 285ES is capable of 911 lumens. The RS400 measures in at 1234 lumens at maximum zoom in low lamp and 1743 lumens at maximum zoom in high lamp mode. This is another area where the JVC pulls ahead. If you want a native 4K projector from Sony with more lumens you'll need to step up to a more expensive unit.

        The 285ES needs to be in high lamp to match the RS440 in brightness (at around 1200 lumens from each) so the comparisons should be made with each projector set to the mode where light output remains equal. For HDR performance, if the 285ES were placed in low lamp mode, it would a suffer peak white bright deficit placing it’s HDR performance lower than that of the RS440. Unfortunately, the 285ES is much louder, both objectively and subjectively. I placed a dB meter exactly 10 inches away from each projector to get a sense of how much of a measured difference there was relative to one another. The 285ES measured in at 44.3dB and the JVC measured in at 34.5dB. This is a very noticeable difference in person. The JVC was measured with eshift enabled. The Sony was much quieter in it’s low lamp mode, but again, this lowers its lumen output to only 900 lumens. This is fine for SDR, but for HDR the 285ES really needs to be in high lamp mode to look best. The Sony defaults to high lamp mode when you enabled the REC2020/HDR10 mode inside the projector. I should also note that the pitch of fan noise leaving the Sony is higher, whereas the JVC has a more low pitch mechanical tone. I’ve recorded both projectors from the same distance with a high quality Marantz Professional microphone. Hear the relative difference for yourself. See here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAoLXUjTESU


     Being forced to use high lamp mode has two issues. One is that it draws more power and the other is that due to the lamp being used in it’s higher wattage state, it means there is more heat being put into your room as well. With my Kill-a-Watt P3 meter, the Sony pulls 42 more watts from the wall (310 watts, vs 268 watts) to output the same amount of lumens and also outputs hotter air and does so faster due to the fan speed being higher than the JVC.  I measured the exhaust air to be 12°F hotter on the Sony (114°F vs 126°F). These are just some practical considerations when making a decision between the two. The Sony will be louder, less efficient and heat up your room more so than the JVC to give you the same amount of lumens.

   As with previous 4K SXRD projectors, native motion handling is class leading among reflective-LCD type displays. While having roughly the same measured motion resolution in video test patterns, around 300 lines, subjectively these SXRD panels pull slightly ahead of JVCs DiLA panels with subjectively less added blur. Sony also has excellent creative frame interpolation modes with minimal artifacts present for those wishing to achieve greater-than-300 lines of resolution. Smooth Low and Smooth High does produce the classic Soap Opera look that many purists dislike, but are greatly beneficial for things like sports, video games, animated titles or 3D titles. The 285ES does offer a black-frame-insertion mode with extremely minimal flicker. This mode is called Impulse. This is a great way to achieve more than 300 lines of motion resolution without the SOE appearance introduced in your image. It’s nice to see Sony still offering this mode. JVC does not offer a BFI mode anymore. Kudo’s to Sony for this.

     Out of the box color and grayscale on the 285ES is exemplary measuring in with deltaE’s under 3. This is much better than the out of the box performance of my RS400. You’ll need  to step up to JVCs more expensive units for better color and greyscale out of the box. The out of the box gamma is also good with the 2.4 tracking well which I found looked great with SDR content. However the 285ES does struggle a bit with it’s 2084 EOTF which means that you’re going to get a less-than-ideal HDR experience. Unfortunately there is no way to calibrate the 285ES’s 2084 EOTF which means it can struggle a bit in giving a reference HDR10 experience. Your only option to get better HDR10 performance, without the need to spend more money on something like a Lumagen Pro, would be to use Sony’s Image Director software and create your own custom gamma curve. But the granularity of what you can accomplish is not as fine as what the JVC offers with Arve’s tool. The out of the box 2084 EOTF on current JVCs is excellent, but if you'd like, you also have the option to create your own EOTF with different clip points with a piece of software called Arve’s tool. This software adds a level of granularity and customization that the Sony lacks.

Sony’s Out of the Box EOTF

(https://i.imgur.com/Nkk528d.png)

       Hopefully Sony addresses this issue with a firmware update. Sony’s “Image Director” calibration software is hard to obtain and is something that is out of the scope of most end users who have very little calibration experience and/or who also lack an appropriate meter to compensate for these deficiencies. When you look at both of these units from an objective and subjective point of view, it’s easy to say that the JVC is better overall for HDR. You’re getting more brightness, more contrast, the same color saturation ability and a better out of the box or custom EOTF. If Sony addresses the out of the box EOTF, it may help lessen the gap in HDR performance.

       3D performance goes to JVC overall. It’s brighter, has more contrast, less crosstalk and with it’s universal 3-pin port you can use any 3D sync device and glasses that you wish. The Sony has a built in RF emitter that does work with a few “universal” branded RF glasses as well as the stock Sony glasses, but the selection is not as big as what the JVC offers. The JVC does have some mild flicker that can be seen from behind the glasses whereas the Sony does not exhibit this phenomenon. But then again, the Sony shows more crosstalk. Some say the flicker bothers them more and others say the crosstalk bothers them more. Personally speaking, as long as the JVC has been on for at least a half an hour, the flicker is something that I don’t really notice after a few minutes. Issues with ghosting has always been more bothersome to me.

RS400 vs 285ES

All Current JVCs
(https://i.imgur.com/FVYDNmH.png)

285ES
(https://i.imgur.com/iab8XMg.jpg)


     Input lag is essentially a tie. Both offer a low lag input mode which removes or lightens some of the video processing to achieve faster input-to-display performance. With the Leo Bodnar input lag tester I measured 35.2 milliseconds of input lag on the 285ES. Without the low lag mode enabled I measured 121 milliseconds. This device only outputs 1080p, so a native 4K signal should be a little faster, but unless you’re a professional gamer 35 milliseconds is already very fast and even less time is not something most casual gamers are going to notice. The JVC measures in at 33 milliseconds in it’s low lag mode. The low lag mode is also available with a 4K image going to the JVC. This is not available on the Sony, but with less video processing needed for the Sony to display an image, it should handle 4K sources very well too. With the low lag mode disabled the JVCs measure similar to the 285ES at 130ms. So again, for all intents and purposes, both are equally good in this regard.

       An area where the 285Es pulls way ahead of the RS440 is with HDMI sync times. It’s a night and day difference. The Sony only takes 5-6 seconds to lock onto a signal and display an image. It can take the JVC up to 15-20 seconds to lock onto a signal and display an image. Sync times do vary and are dependent on what type of signal is being sent to the JVC, but in general you’re looking at a minimum of around 15 seconds before you get an image up on your screen. If possible, try and set a locked refresh rate otherwise be ready for long blackout periods in your theater when switching sources and frame rates. JVC needs to work on this.

       I want to spend a large chunk of this write up on the resolution and subjective sharpness of the 285ES and how it compares to JVC's eshift technology because I think these points are extremely important to make. After all, on paper, this is one of the biggest differences between these two models. I often see people dumbfounded when reading reports from others that the seemingly obvious benefit of native 4K on a Sony 4K SXRD projector, with native 4K source material, doesn’t actually appear sharper (or only subtly sharper) than an e-shifted image from a normal seated distance. Taken at face value, it seems obvious that more pixels on screen should in fact look sharper and more detailed than less pixels on screen. I agree with this as that should be the case, but there are some caveats with how Sony implements their 4K SXRD projectors that come into play here. It’s also difficult to compare subjective image sharpness and resolution between these models because the way in which they render a 4K image is very different. The JVC relies on proprietary scaling and rendering software combined with optical manipulation of their 1080p images through a process called eshift to put on screen greater-than-1080p resolution. Effectively it can only do 4 million pixels worth of information on screen. The 285ES is native 4K which means it can put up more than 8 million pixels on screen. The 285ES, in a perfect world, should most definitely have more detail in it’s image with 4K source material. With that said, I have to agree with those other reports that say, more often than not, it’s difficult to see more detail with the 285ES. Let me discuss why I think this is and try to explain these caveats...
 
       The first caveat is the lens in the 285ES. Simply put, it cannot focus down on pixels across the entire SXRD panel as well a the JVCs lens can with it’s own DiLA panels. This is still the case even though Sony has taken steps this year to manufacture their lenses closer to specification. It has not reached the level of performance that the Sony 1xxx/5000ES lens has. I don’t think anyone was expecting it to though. The excellent German website, cine4home.de, did a deep dive awhile back into the dozens of 6xx/3xx 4K SXRD projectors they received and reported that only about 20% of lenses in those projectors were issue free. This meant that around 80% of all the lenses they looked at in previous years either had poor focus uniformity, had issues focusing down on individual pixels or a combination of both. Sony seems to be rectifying this issue this year with better quality control to avoid this. But still, I don’t think even a lens built to specification can focus down on pixels as well as the JVCs lens and the JVCs lens has stellar focus uniformity. Though to give Sony a little leeway, the pixels are roughly four times smaller on these 4K SXRD panels, so it may be cost prohibitive to get something like the JVC’s focusing performance at the 285ES’ price point. It looks like you need to step up to the 5000ES to get a lens that good or better when the pixels are this small.
       
       The second caveat is that the 285ES has an issue displaying discreet chroma (color) information on a per pixel basis. From a displaying color perspective I don't think you can call this projector native 4K. This issue seems to stem from a hardware limitation with the device that feeds the SXRD panels information; the “panel drivers”. This information as to how this artifact occurs comes from a high up employee at Sony EU when a 1000ES owner asked about it. This issue was worse on previous generation 4K SXRD projectors including the 1100ES, 600ES, 300ES and 665ES. Through some tweaks in software, the issue has been lessened. It’s now very difficult to see from a seated distance, but if you walk up to your screen, you can still make out the detrimental effects this issue has on the image. Anyone who owns a 4K SXRD projector need only to walk up to their screen to see what I’m talking about. Essentially you lose out on fine detail and subtle changes in color that are in the source. This issue manifests itself as banding and posterization in the image which can turn subtle color information into swaths of one color. In my opinion this artifact wipes away a fine layer of detail that the image could have if it weren't occurring. With that said, the 285ES does provide discrete single pixel information when the pixels only need to be black and white:

(https://i.imgur.com/yv3DuLw.png)

       In this sense it is "native 4K" and will map information on a discreet basis as long as the pixels only have to be black and white. Again though, the issue I talk about where 4K SXRD not providing full 4K resolution has to do with when color information is added in to the image. Obviously this will happen when we watch real video content as next to no video content is pure black and white. Even "black and white" movies are not truly black and white in a literal sense. I'll reference this comparison between these two projectors so you can see how the Sony suffers from posterization issues:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/122534

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/122533

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120394

       As you can see, 4K SXRD has issues providing subtle color changes in the source properly. This artifact has occurred on all 4K SXRD projectors released thus far and it''s still there on all of the 2017/2018 models. The result is same colored blotches (posterization) and banding. It does not show what's actually in the source properly as far as color is concerned. The JVC by comparison can simply show more subtle color information that's in the source over what the Sony can do. I would like to add that this issue is always there in the image no matter the signal type. It does not matter if the video is HDR, SDR, 4K, 1080p or even 24p or 60p. Again, this artifact is always in the image as it's something inherent to how Sony drives its SXRD panels.

       While difficult to see from a normal seated distance, it goes it show you how much of a fine detail advantage the 285ES could have if it were able to map color appropriately. I would really like Sony to fix this issue. It's one that has plagued 4K SXRD since the 1000ES (their first consumer 4K projector) back in 2012. From what I've read and been told privately it seems these issues are hardware limitations on the 4K panel and panel driver level, so a new 4K SXRD panel and driver is most likely needed. This would be nice to see as Sony has been rocking these mostly unchanged 4K SXRD panels since 2012 when the 1000ES was released. Hopefully we see something new out in the next year or two with a revised .74" 4K SXRD panel.

       Moving on to the he third caveat. All Sony 4K SXRD projectors, including the 285ES, have non-defeatable noise reduction video processing. This issue has been discussed in several professional reviews about previous 4K SXRD projectors. Out of all the caveats, this is by far the easiest to see from a seated distance. When doing an A/B comparison to a JVC or high end DLP projector you can see the Sony’s image is clearly lacking in grain structure when there is a lot of it in the source. Grain is especially important for movies or TV shows that were shot on film. Grain is how film stock get’s it’s “resolution”. The detail is almost always built into the grain structure on the film. The 285ES unfortunately wipes clean a lot of that fine detail due to the noise reduction you can't disable. Some people like a cleaner looking image, but purists looking to achieve a true-to-the-source rendering of the movie or TV show should look elsewhere. So, on top of the color resolution not being rendered as it should, this noise reduction takes away another fine layer on image detail that could produce extra detail to overtake eshift even more.

       The last caveat is one that I don’t see discussed often and is not something that is Sony’s fault. We’re still extremely early on in the life cycle of 4K/UHD source material and the avenues in which we play back 4K/UHD material. Right now UHD Blu-ray is the highest quality consumer video standard out and this will probably remain true for a long time. But right now the vast majority of UHD blu-ray titles out are sourced from a 2K digital intermediate. This means that most of the movie is scaled up to 4K resolution from 2K with often only a handful of elements of the film (or none at all) brought to the UHD bluray transfer to be shown off at native 4K resolution. This often leads to only a small (or none at all) benefit in fine detail. There are some movies that actually look worse than their 1080p blu-ray counterpart. See here for an example:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120395

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120396

   The comparison photographs below were taken inches away from the screen. The source frame can be seen here (https://i.imgur.com/lIjpf3v.jpg). Please note this image is HDR and is meant to be viewed properly on an HDR10 capable display. I also have not calibrated my RS400, which accounts for the obvious overly-green cast to the image. The Sony looks much better overall for color. Viewing the source frame on a regular monitor will result in a somewhat washed out look. But we’re focusing on fine detail, not color or dynamic range. So for that purpose, this frame is fine to be viewed on an SDR monitor. This frame is from the UHD Bluray of Life, which is a reference UHD Bluray title. You can see the JVC is just ever so slightly less refined, but remember, this was taken from just a few inches away from the screen. At a seated distance, the difference in apparent resolution is not there.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120393

        So to sum this up, I think the reason why we hear so often that eshift can effectively match 4K SXRD in apparent resolution and detail is a culmination of several issues which include a relatively less performing lens creating a slight loss of optical resolution, a slight loss of digital resolution through noise filtering and subtle color information not making its way into the final image on screen (banding and posterization artifacts) and the fact that UHD Blu-ray is in its infancy not showing us what true 4K resolution can look like with most titles out so far. I really do think if all these issues are addressed, 4K SXRD would look obviously better than eshift. I realize all of this seems to be a huge knock against Sony, but I feel these points are important to make because the resolution difference is more than likely going to be the major reason why most people are going to consider this projector over a JVC. I feel these issues do make most of the advantage the 285ES could have in resolution, or essentially any 4K SXRD projector, almost moot. As it stands now, from a normal seated distance, I rarely see a difference in fine detail and sharpness between these two projectors. There are others who contest this finding and that’s fine, but for me and several others including professional reviewers, we aren’t seeing an obvious benefit as things currently stand most of the time. I think I make a fair argument supplemented with photographs and in depth explanations to explain why this is. With that said, does everyone claim to see the same things I and others have? No. Will they find the appeal of native 4K despite these issues as better than eshift? Sure. But again, I, like others, are not seeing much benefit. If Sony addresses these issues I think my opinion on the matter with change dramatically.

       I guess what I’m trying to say is that the native 4K aspect of this projector probably should not be the determining factor as to why you’re buying it. The apparent resolution increase over an eshift JVC unit just isn’t there the vast majority of the time. At a normal seated distance, the times where there was a clear visual increase in resolution when watching video were few and far between. With that said, the reasons in which one might prefer the 285ES over an eshift JVC are for it’s other inherent positive attributes that the JVCs lack. These would be slightly better native motion handling, a cleaner looking image (if you’re okay with some film grain being taken out of the image) , high ANSI contrast giving bright scenes a little more pop, and a slightly more organic and natural looking image. If you value these traits over the JVCs inherent strengths then I think the 285ES is the right choice for you.

       As a buyer you need to figure out which picture quality attributes are most important to you. This will help tremendously when making your purchase choice. The difference in brightness and contrast is large and easy to see on the JVC. Personally, I don’t think the higher performing image quality aspects of the Sony make up for the deficit it has with brightness and contrast. The JVC offers such a staggering value and does so many things well, while also costing $1000 less. This makes it difficult to recommend the 285ES over the RS440 when you take the all the relative shortcomings the 285ES has into consideration.

       In 2017 it’s difficult to make a “wrong” decision when deciding between projectors in the $3000+ market. At the end of the day, we’re really just nitpicking about projectors that all looking stunning. You can’t make a wrong decision, you just need to pick your poison and choose to buy something that performs best in the areas you appreciate most. I’ve tried my best to describe these differences in as much detail as possible to so you can make the most informed decision possible.


Sony VPL-VW285ES

Pros:

Cheapest Native 4K Projector Released To Date
Native 4K
Good Native Motion Handling
An organic and analog looking film-like image
Low Input Lag
Good ANSI Contrast
High Native On/Off Contrast
Great Out of Of the Box Color and Greyscale
Overall Excellent Image Quality

Cons/Gripes:

No Manual Iris
No Lens Memories
Non-Reference 2084 EOTF

Resolution loss due to:
Non-Defeatable Noise Reduction
Some Banding and Posterization

13.5 Gbps HDMI 2.0 Ports
UHD/4K 10bit 60p Banding
Limited Brightness At This Price Point


JVC DLA-RS440

Pros:
Price to Performance Ratio
Excellent Lens Quality
Class leading On/Off Contrast
Class leading Brightness
Low Input Lag Mode
Ultra Quiet
Lens Memories
Custom Gamma and Color Profiles
Auto-Calibration Functionality
CFI with 4K Sources
Class leading 3D Performance

Cons/Gripes:
Somewhat limited e-shift system
Some Flicker in 3D mode
Long HDMI Sync Times
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: DavidHir on October 12, 2017, 06:39:27 PM
Outstanding review and comparison, Dylan.  Appreciate your effort and feedback between these two units.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 12, 2017, 06:45:13 PM
It was pretty easy to write up as both the RS440 and 285ES are evolutionary models. Much of what I've written about is well known but with most of the information scattered all over the internet. I tried my best to put all of that info in one post. Whether some people like it or not, the 285ES doesn't really put up more visible resolution on screen 99% of the time and I wanted to explain why this is as best I could. It's also worth pointing out how much louder the 285ES is to match the RS4xx in brightness. It has to be in high lamp and is considerably louder. The 285ES does have some positives over a JVC RS4xx and I think if people value those qualities it makes more sense for them to get the 285ES.  I just don't think the native 4K aspect is a reason you should choose it over the JVC.

I'll be fixing some typos and adding more images and information as I can over the next week or so before the 285ES goes back. So if anyone has any questions or would like more photos or for me to look at anything else, I'll do my best to provide them.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: farsider3000 on October 12, 2017, 09:06:14 PM
It was pretty easy to write up as both the RS440 and 285ES are evolutionary models. Much of what I've written about is well known but with most of the information scattered all over the internet. I tried my best to put all of that info in one post. Whether some people like it or not, the 285ES doesn't really put up more visible resolution on screen 99% of the time and I wanted to explain why this is as best I could. It's also worth pointing out how much louder the 285ES is to match the RS4xx in brightness. It has to be in high lamp and is considerably louder. The 285ES does have some positives over a JVC RS4xx and I think if people value those qualities it makes more sense for them to get the 285ES.  I just don't think the native 4K aspect is a reason you should choose it over the JVC.

I'll be fixing some typos and adding more images and information as I can over the next week or so before the 285ES goes back. So if anyone has any questions or would like more photos or for me to look at anything else, I'll do my best to provide them.

Dylan thank you so much for that review.  Really excellent!  I was ready to buy a 385 but now I am thinking about the RS540 or 640 again. 
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Javs on October 12, 2017, 09:23:42 PM
It was pretty easy to write up as both the RS440 and 285ES are evolutionary models. Much of what I've written about is well known but with most of the information scattered all over the internet. I tried my best to put all of that info in one post. Whether some people like it or not, the 285ES doesn't really put up more visible resolution on screen 99% of the time and I wanted to explain why this is as best I could. It's also worth pointing out how much louder the 285ES is to match the RS4xx in brightness. It has to be in high lamp and is considerably louder. The 285ES does have some positives over a JVC RS4xx and I think if people value those qualities it makes more sense for them to get the 285ES.  I just don't think the native 4K aspect is a reason you should choose it over the JVC.

I'll be fixing some typos and adding more images and information as I can over the next week or so before the 285ES goes back. So if anyone has any questions or would like more photos or for me to look at anything else, I'll do my best to provide them.

Great writeup, thanks.

Its just been clarified that the gaming banding pic you showed from the game Hitman, the original poster of that image is saying that issue is in the game and visible on all his displays in the house. So I would probably remove it since its not really a Sony issue.

(https://i.imgur.com/VSM5jfL.png)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 12, 2017, 09:25:59 PM
Great writeup, thanks.

Its just been clarified that the gaming banding pic you showed from the game Hitman, the original poster of that image is saying that issue is in the game and visible on all his displays in the house. So I would probably remove it since its not really a Sony issue.

(https://i.imgur.com/VSM5jfL.png)

I will take some photos tonight then. The UB900 has a forced 10bit 4:2:0 mode if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: farsider3000 on October 12, 2017, 09:35:44 PM
Great writeup, thanks.

Its just been clarified that the gaming banding pic you showed from the game Hitman, the original poster of that image is saying that issue is in the game and visible on all his displays in the house. So I would probably remove it since its not really a Sony issue.

(https://i.imgur.com/VSM5jfL.png)
We can't make the assumption that it is a game issue.  He only said it looks the same on an old Kuro.  If it looks this way on a 2017 top of the line 18Gbps HDMI capable hit bit display then I think we could say it is the game.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Javs on October 12, 2017, 10:21:20 PM
The only thing we seem to be missing is a pic of a monkey! Can we see that please, assuming the banding will be gone in that pic.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: farsider3000 on October 12, 2017, 10:29:33 PM
I still want to see some comparison of actors faces on the 385 vs. the JVC 540/640.  I use the face of the hotel desk worker in the Lucy 4k UHD to compare my Panasonic UB900 and Oppo 203.  The Panasonic was superior in conversion of HDR to SDR (1080P) and it had a much more graduated application of sharpness that looked better.  The Oppo sharpness adjustment almost seemed like it is broken as a single click up was almost too much and introduced noise (or enhanced it too much).
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 12, 2017, 10:47:18 PM
The only thing we seem to be missing is a pic of a monkey! Can we see that please, assuming the banding will be gone in that pic.

I can confirm added banding with a 4K60 10bit 4:2:0 signal. Feel free to share these images. I was able to force that type of output with my UB900:

Click to enlarge the images

(https://i.imgur.com/TvheXYA.jpg)

Right at the main menu of the UB900 in this mode shows bad banding. The stock image on this player has some banding already, but the 285ES is adding a lot more than what's in the image already:

(https://i.imgur.com/Tv3HNyA.jpg)

Then the menu of The Fifth Element on UHD BD:

(https://i.imgur.com/T6TVUxK.jpg)

This is an extremely noisy film anyways (lots of grain) so it helps mask a lot of the banding but some of it still pops through. There should not be green and pink bands in the image. They are not there on my JVC:

(https://i.imgur.com/X2mOx05.png)

Edit: Here's the JVC.   I tried to get the same angle, but you get the point:
(https://i.imgur.com/cQoiwng.jpg)

Oh and still tons of posterization in the image. Maybe AMartin will prefer this ass instead of a monkey  ;)

(https://i.imgur.com/RfsGmQH.jpg)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 12, 2017, 10:55:27 PM
It genuinely surprises me that people don't call AMartin out on his BS more. Not only has he never compared a 4K SXRD projector to a current JVC, he's never even seen a 4K SXRD projector in his own theater on its own. He talks as if he has and knows what the image of one looks like up close and personal. I can't wait for him to get his 385ES and actually walk up to his screen to witness the horror that is posterization and banding. On the Sony's it's always there taking away source information that should be displayed.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Javs on October 13, 2017, 12:14:36 AM

Oh and still tons of posterization in the image. Maybe AMartin will prefer this ass instead of a monkey  ;)

(https://i.imgur.com/RfsGmQH.jpg)

haha that image is great.

Are these artefacts still there if you turn off HDR so it send SDR Rec709?
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 13, 2017, 12:22:40 AM
haha that image is great.

Are these artefacts still there if you turn off HDR so it send SDR Rec709?

Yes, that posterization is there no matter the video output settings.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: lygren on October 13, 2017, 03:27:38 AM
Have not noticed this reported posterization, but there are certainly some other issues - that luckily is possible to correct via a proper calibration. First, of the six 285´s we´ve calibrated thus far, the gamma response is not in accordance to input. Basically, a steep "S" curve is applied that needs heavy correction. Also, colour space and greyscale needs correction. Before and after calibration has rarely had as much effect as with these new ones from Sony...



Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: lygren on October 13, 2017, 03:30:15 AM
Also, average on/off contrast levels for the 285´s are about 12-15k:1, while the two 385´s we´ve calibrated thus far is at about 22k:1. We´re calibrating using a K10A, profiling with a CR spectro (and we also have a PR670 at hand, but as this one does not support <5nm, needed for profiling lasers, we have started using the CR for profiling instead).
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: lygren on October 13, 2017, 03:40:55 AM
...and by the way, EXCELLENT review @Dylan Seeger...! :)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 13, 2017, 10:42:43 AM
Have not noticed this reported posterization, but there are certainly some other issues...

Posterization is not something you can easily see from a seated distance as this particular artifact is small. The next time you have a 285ES or 385ES playing video. Pause the movie on a close up face shot and walk up close to the screen. You should be  able to make out this artifact if you're standing very close to the screen.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 13, 2017, 12:47:41 PM
For anyone looking to see some of the color limitations on the Sony 4Ks, playback this Spears and Munsil 10 bit gradation quantization pattern. It shows both 8 bit and 10 bit patterns next to one another. You can download it here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B68jIlCvW85gMW5aX21CbU1IOGs/view

Unfortunately banding is pretty excessive on the Sony's. My RS400 does not exibit this banding. The whole point of having the 8 bit next to the 10 bit is to show you how much less banding there is with a 10 bit color gradation. Sorry about the flicker, it's added by my phone. Pay attention to the rotating patterns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9SRTf5OpOA
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 13, 2017, 01:57:45 PM
So it seems the key is to turn off HDR with a 4K60 10bit 4:2:0 signal to get rid the excessive banding that this type of signal adds to the image. But that kind of defeats the purpose of sending this signal to the projector as 10bit content is almost always going to be HDR in the consumer video world. From the "other" forum:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120539

Not the best photo, but you can see what happens with HDR enabled. I'll see if I can get some clearer photos later tonight if I get some time.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 13, 2017, 02:58:54 PM
I still want to see some comparison of actors faces on the 385 vs. the JVC 540/640.  I use the face of the hotel desk worker in the Lucy 4k UHD to compare my Panasonic UB900 and Oppo 203.  The Panasonic was superior in conversion of HDR to SDR (1080P) and it had a much more graduated application of sharpness that looked better.  The Oppo sharpness adjustment almost seemed like it is broken as a single click up was almost too much and introduced noise (or enhanced it too much).

I read one of your comments on the other forum regarding eshift vs 4K SXRD. The 285ES does provide single pixel information on this single pixel black and white test pattern:

(https://i.imgur.com/yv3DuLw.png)

So in that sense it is "native 4K". The issue I talk about where 4K SXRD not providing full 4K resolution has to do with when color information is added in to the image. This happens (obviously) when we watch real video content. So while it may be able to do black and white just fine on a per pixel basis to do real native 4K, it cannot do that when we add complex color into the image. I'll reference this comparison again:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120394

As you can see, 4K SXRD has issues doing color information properly. The result is same colored blotches (posterization) and banding. It does not show whats actually in the source properly as far as color is concerned. The JVC by comparison can simply show more subtle color information than the Sony's can. This issue is always there (HDR or not, 4K or not). So unless you're just watching black and white single line information like those test patterns, I don't think the Sony 4Ks are actually true 4K as color performance goes and this is more important than how it performs on that single pixel test pattern shown above because we all watch video with complex color in it. The 4K60 10bit 4:2:0 issue is a little different in that it makes the banding a LOT worse, to the point where it's obvious to see from a seated distance. The posterization and banding that I reference to is more subtle and is hard to see from a seated distance. Hopefully Sony can address this excessive banding with a 4K60 10bit 4:2:0 image with a firmware update.

Part of the reason I talk about this so much is because these Sony 4K's are supposed to have more resolution than anything else out there (except the JVC DLA-Z1/RS4500) and I feel this artifact combined with the non-defeatable noise reduction takes away a layer of fine detail that almost takes away the benefit of native 4K over 1080p + eshift. If Sony fixed these color issues completely I think these 4K SXRD models would show an obvious advantage in apparent resolution. But from what I've read and been told privately it seems most of these issues are hardware limitations on the 4K panel and panel driver level, so a new 4K SXRD panel and driver is most likely needed. This would be nice to see as Sony has been rocking these mostly unchanged 4K SXRD panels since 2012 when the 1000ES was released. Hopefully we see something new out in the next year or two. .74" 4K SXRD Revision 2.0!
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: farsider3000 on October 13, 2017, 05:16:22 PM
I read one of your comments on the other forum regarding eshift vs 4K SXRD. The 285ES does provide single pixel information on this single pixel black and white test pattern:

(https://i.imgur.com/yv3DuLw.png)

So in that sense it is "native 4K". The issue I talk about where 4K SXRD not providing full 4K resolution has to do with when color information is added in to the image. This happens (obviously) when we watch real video content. So while it may be able to do black and white just fine on a per pixel basis to do real native 4K, it cannot do that when we add complex color into the image. I'll reference this comparison again:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120394

As you can see, 4K SXRD has issues doing color information properly. The result is same colored blotches (posterization) and banding. It does not show whats actually in the source properly as far as color is concerned. The JVC by comparison can simply show more subtle color information than the Sony's can. This issue is always there (HDR or not, 4K or not). So unless you're just watching black and white single line information like those test patterns, I don't think the Sony 4Ks are actually true 4K as color performance goes and this is more important than how it performs on that single pixel test pattern shown above because we all watch video with complex color in it. The 4K60 10bit 4:2:0 issue is a little different in that it makes the banding a LOT worse, to the point where it's obvious to see from a seated distance. The posterization and banding that I reference to is more subtle and is hard to see from a seated distance. Hopefully Sony can address this excessive banding with a 4K60 10bit 4:2:0 image with a firmware update.

Part of the reason I talk about this so much is because these Sony 4K's are supposed to have more resolution than anything else out there (except the JVC DLA-Z1/RS4500) and I feel this artifact combined with the non-defeatable noise reduction takes away a layer of fine detail that almost takes away the benefit of native 4K over 1080p + eshift. If Sony fixed these color issues completely I think these 4K SXRD models would show an obvious advantage in apparent resolution. But from what I've read and been told privately it seems most of these issues are hardware limitations on the 4K panel and panel driver level, so a new 4K SXRD panel and driver is most likely needed. This would be nice to see as Sony has been rocking these mostly unchanged 4K SXRD panels since 2012 when the 1000ES was released. Hopefully we see something new out in the next year or two. .74" 4K SXRD Revision 2.0!
That is great information.  I have decided to wait out this round as I don't want to buy into old 4k panels, 13Gbps and mediocre lens (Sony) or fake 4k (JVC).  Maybe Epson will release a true 4k projector at CES in January.  My JVC 4910 still throws a heck of a nice image that is very sharp and I can get the benefit of DTS:X and Atmos by buying 4k UHD discs and down converting to SDR and 1080P (I don't like the eshift buzz sound).
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: DavidHir on October 13, 2017, 10:05:20 PM
That is great information.  I have decided to wait out this round as I don't want to buy into old 4k panels, 13Gbps and mediocre lens (Sony) or fake 4k (JVC).  Maybe Epson will release a true 4k projector at CES in January.  My JVC 4910 still throws a heck of a nice image that is very sharp and I can get the benefit of DTS:X and Atmos by buying 4k UHD discs and down converting to SDR and 1080P (I don't like the eshift buzz sound).

Chad B calibrated my RS4910 unit last weekend and created custom gamma curves for HDR support.  I have to say, I am pretty impressed even at 20ftL in high lamp (my room is a complete black pit).  The wider color gamut also turned out much better than I expected (most dEs under 3).  I've only done limited comparisons, but I prefer it to the "SDR conversion" of the UB900 although as Kris Deering says, there is really no such thing as conversion as it's all tone mapping.  My main concern is my lamp only has 185 hours and as I fade, I will probably run into brightness issues sooner than I would like.  eshift3 still does a pretty good job though (and a bit sharper than my former LS10000 it seems) and I'm very curious to hear about the new eshift5 on the RS440 which I have my eye on. 

Cal report for HDR: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0W-jUeeDw5hTTl6NWwxc3ZvVzQ
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on October 13, 2017, 10:09:05 PM
Chad B calibrated my RS4910 unit last weekend and created custom gamma curves for HDR support.  I have to say, I am pretty impressed even at 20ftL in high lamp (my room is a complete black pit).  The wider color gamut also turned out much better than I expected (most dEs under 3).  I've only done limited comparisons, but I prefer it to the "SDR conversion" of the UB900 although as Kris Deering says, there is really no such thing as conversion as it's all tone mapping.  My main concern is my lamp only has 185 hours and as I fade, I will probably run into brightness issues sooner than I would like.  eshift3 still does a pretty good job though (and a bit sharper than my former LS10000 it seems) very curious to hear about the new eshift5 on the RS440 which I have my eye on.

An RS440 would be about as bright in low lamp as your RS4910 is in high lamp, so there is that consideration - more lumens for HDR ( same with the RS420's on close out ).
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: DavidHir on October 13, 2017, 10:13:29 PM
An RS440 would be about as bright in low lamp as your RS4910 is in high lamp, so there is that consideration - more lumens for HDR ( same with the RS420's on close out ).

Yep, the brightness would be a nice plus for sure. If I hear eshift5 is really not much different than eshift4 on content in motion from regular seating distances, the RS420 closeout would be tempting.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 14, 2017, 10:18:55 AM
The RS4910 is an excellent projector and I still think it holds up well despite being several generations old now, especially if you have an HDFury product which would help when connecting it to a Panny UB900 or Oppo 203.  But I do think the RS400 or RS420 is a definite step up from the RS4910 with HDR though. Eshift4 does do a noticeably better job than Eshift3. We'll have to see what Eshift5 does over 4. The brightness difference between the RS4910 and RS4xx series units is substantial enough to make a noticeable difference on HDR. With that said, I wouldn't be surprised if HDR looks excellent on your RS4910 as ChadB is well regarded and I'm sure he's making the most out what the RS4910 has to offer.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Andreas21 on October 15, 2017, 07:00:00 PM
Posterization is not something you can easily see from a seated distance as this particular artifact is small. The next time you have a 285ES or 385ES playing video. Pause the movie on a close up face shot and walk up close to the screen. You should be  able to make out this artifact if you're standing very close to the screen.

I just saw the VW760 laser model and it has the same banding and posterization as all the Sony 4K models.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 16, 2017, 01:04:26 AM
I just saw the VW760 laser model and it has the same banding and posterization as all the Sony 4K models.

I can't say that I'm surprised. I will admit it's a little better than it used to be on older 4K SXRD projectors, but it's still not gone. Given that JVC's eshift technology has evolved so much since the first generation, I find that these artifacts are really starting to hold 4K SXRD back from achieving a genuinely noticeable advantage in on-screen resolution. These artifacts combined with the non-defeatable noise reduction wipes away a layer of fine detail that would otherwise give Sony a visible advantage in resolution. I have a feeling that Sony will only fix this issue when JVC has more native 4K competition out. From what I've been told, 4K DiLA does not exhibit these same artifacts, so when it's brought down to cheaper prices and direct comparisons are made showing JVC to be superior in both test patterns and real world video content, I think JVC will have forced Sony's hand into fixing these problems.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 16, 2017, 10:50:45 PM
Tomorrow the 285ES is going back. But before it left I wanted to watch some content on it tonight. I ended up watching Life (2017). It looked excellent on the 285ES. No real gripes with overall image quality. I think most people who purchase this or the 385ES will enjoy the projector. As I've said many times, in the $3000+ market, it's next to impossible to make a wrong decision. All of these projectors throw a gorgeous image. It's really only when we want to nitpick and compare two of these projectors is when we see some of the minor faults these projectors have. At times I wish my JVC had the seemingly effortless analog look this 285ES has. I also wish my JVC could match the Sony with motion. While motion is only marginally better, it is something I can see as a positive attribute on the 285ES. But of course, the Sony has it's faults too, which most of you are well versed in now after reading countless tirades by me. At the end of the day, choose what works best for you. At the moment, for me, it's a JVC.

If Sony fixes the issues that bother me, I honestly think a 4K Sony will be my main projector. Native contrast results on the 385ES look very promising. I can't wait to see what these SXRD models can do in 12-24 months. I could easily live with ~25000:1 native contrast projector with a good DI, which all Sony's usually have. Added with SXRD's typically higher ANSI contrast, better motion and the more organic looking image it would be something hard to pass up. I anxiously await a revised .74" SXRD panel!
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on October 17, 2017, 12:52:02 PM
At CEDIA, Craig and I also thought the 285 at it's price point threw an excellent image. Not a lot to complain about. Contrast looked much better than I expected it to look, since it did not have a dynamic iris.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on October 17, 2017, 07:01:25 PM
Tomorrow the 285ES is going back. But before it left I wanted to watch some content on it tonight. I ended up watching Life (2017). It looked excellent on the 285ES. No real gripes with overall image quality. I think most people who purchase this or the 385ES will enjoy the projector. As I've said many times, in the $3000+ market, it's next to impossible to make a wrong decision. All of these projectors throw a gorgeous image. It's really only when we want to nitpick and compare two of these projectors is when we see some of the minor faults these projectors have. At times I wish my JVC had the seemingly effortless analog look this 285ES has. I also wish my JVC could match the Sony with motion. While motion is only marginally better, it is something I can see as a positive attribute on the 285ES. But of course, the Sony has it's faults too, which most of you are well versed in now after reading countless tirades by me. At the end of the day, choose what works best for you. At the moment, for me, it's a JVC.

If Sony fixes the issues that bother me, I honestly think a 4K Sony will be my main projector. Native contrast results on the 385ES look very promising. I can't wait to see what these SXRD models can do in 12-24 months. I could easily live with ~25000:1 native contrast projector with a good DI, which all Sony's usually have. Added with SXRD's typically higher ANSI contrast, better motion and the more organic looking image it would be something hard to pass up. I anxiously await a revised .74" SXRD panel!

What are you going to test next ?  :)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 17, 2017, 07:20:46 PM
What are you going to test next ?  :)

I'm not entirely sure yet. I would love to see an eshift 5 unit. I'm excited to see how much better these JVCs look with this latest version of eshift. Or I was thinking about checking out the Vivtek HK2299.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: HarperVision on October 19, 2017, 06:50:04 PM
Would you be able to get your hands on a VW885ES for a review when they're released?
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on October 19, 2017, 07:16:31 PM
Would you be able to get your hands on a VW885ES for a review when they're released?

Just order one from Amazon, and then return it when your finished !  ::)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 19, 2017, 11:30:10 PM
Just order one from Amazon, and then return it when your finished !  ::)

That is indeed what I did with this 285ES. Over the years, I've lost out on plenty of money to see these projectors in my own theater. Lately I've been taking advantage of generous return policies. Amazon should adjust their return policy if they feel too many people abuse their system. But not all of these projectors are available on Amazon so sometimes I need to risk losing some money selling them after I'm done playing around.

The main reason I don't go to CEDIA is that I know the vast majority won't be set up to my liking with a reference screen material or with video content I'm familiar with. It almost seems like a waste of time. The feeling I get every year from attendees is that they never really get to see these projectors in the best light and most of them are pre-production hardware/software anyways.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on October 19, 2017, 11:48:52 PM
That is indeed what I did with this 285ES. Over the years, I've lost out on plenty of money to see these projectors in my own theater. Lately I've been taking advantage of generous return policies. Amazon should adjust their return policy if they feel too many people abuse their system. But not all of these projectors are available on Amazon so sometimes I need to risk losing some money selling them after I'm done playing around.

The main reason I don't go to CEDIA is that I know the vast majority won't be set up to my liking with a reference screen material or with video content I'm familiar with. It almost seems like a waste of time. The feeling I get every year from attendees is that they never really get to see these projectors in the best light and most of them are pre-production hardware/software anyways.

That is true to some extent, but you do see projectors you might never see otherwise. And for those of us in the business, it's important to go and also see the people in the industry. Don Stewart, the JVC folks, the Epson and Sony folks - it's becoming like a yearly family reunion !
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Paul Heroy on October 20, 2017, 12:24:10 PM
Saw the 285 at a local dealer this week. It was during a public HT oriented event and being used in a room demoing Kaleidescape. So I didn't get to do much focused on the 285 itself, but the one thing that did jump out to me was black levels that looked fairly bright. I've been using the JVC RS500 so I've become accustomed to much better. I posted previously that I was strongly thinking of selling the JVC and grabbing a 285 but now I'm not so sure. My main issue with the JVC is that 3D is annoying due to being forced to use the 1 model of glasses that have the correct polarization, and aren't very comfortable. Of course, sadly less content is going to be 3D as I start adding movies in UHD versions.

And I have to say, that Kaleidescape server is really nice, very slick interface and so much nicer to watch a movie from that as opposed to a disc with menus and warnings to navigate. But the cost, and the proprietary nature of the downloads are big obstacles to me.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 20, 2017, 12:56:19 PM
Saw the 285 at a local dealer this week. It was during a public HT oriented event and being used in a room demoing Kaleidescape. So I didn't get to do much focused on the 285 itself, but the one thing that did jump out to me was black levels that looked fairly bright. I've been using the JVC RS500 so I've become accustomed to much better. I posted previously that I was strongly thinking of selling the JVC and grabbing a 285 but now I'm not so sure. My main issue with the JVC is that 3D is annoying due to being forced to use the 1 model of glasses that have the correct polarization, and aren't very comfortable. Of course, sadly less content is going to be 3D as I start adding movies in UHD versions.

And I have to say, that Kaleidescape server is really nice, very slick interface and so much nicer to watch a movie from that as opposed to a disc with menus and warnings to navigate. But the cost, and the proprietary nature of the downloads are big obstacles to me.

Even my RS400 here has much better contrast than the 285ES. You really need to step up to the 385ES if you want more competitive contrast and black level performance. I should also note that the 285/385ES will have a lot more ghosting during 3D viewing compared to the JVCs. This was easily visible in my testing and comparison to the the RS400. This is something to take into consideration if you plan on viewing a lot of 3D. Also the added brightness of these JVCs will help render 3D better.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on October 20, 2017, 02:10:17 PM
Saw the 285 at a local dealer this week. It was during a public HT oriented event and being used in a room demoing Kaleidescape. So I didn't get to do much focused on the 285 itself, but the one thing that did jump out to me was black levels that looked fairly bright. I've been using the JVC RS500 so I've become accustomed to much better. I posted previously that I was strongly thinking of selling the JVC and grabbing a 285 but now I'm not so sure. My main issue with the JVC is that 3D is annoying due to being forced to use the 1 model of glasses that have the correct polarization, and aren't very comfortable. Of course, sadly less content is going to be 3D as I start adding movies in UHD versions.

And I have to say, that Kaleidescape server is really nice, very slick interface and so much nicer to watch a movie from that as opposed to a disc with menus and warnings to navigate. But the cost, and the proprietary nature of the downloads are big obstacles to me.

I wish I had the cash for one myself. Sadly, at this time, I do not.  :'(
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on October 20, 2017, 03:21:42 PM
I wish I had the cash for one myself. Sadly, at this time, I do not.  :'(

Yeah, I almost bought one a couple years ago.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: stanger89 on October 20, 2017, 05:13:47 PM
My main issue with the JVC is that 3D is annoying due to being forced to use the 1 model of glasses that have the correct polarization, and aren't very comfortable. Of course, sadly less content is going to be 3D as I start adding movies in UHD versions.

Sounds like you just need to get a screen that doesn't retain any polarization.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Paul Heroy on October 20, 2017, 05:34:17 PM
Sounds like you just need to get a screen that doesn't retain any polarization.

WAY easier said than done. I have a motorized Black Diamond so 1) recouping much of the cost of that would be very difficult; 2) getting my wife to let me even look into something like this is not a battle I want to even think about any time soon. It'd probably be less expensive and far easier logistically to sell the JVC and move up the 385, and that isn't happening either.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on October 22, 2017, 07:36:12 PM
JVC did not do it to be annoying. They did it, because from an engineering standpoint, that is the correct way to do it. When you maintain polarization in the projector and glasses, you gain brightness for free.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Paul Heroy on October 22, 2017, 11:16:01 PM
JVC did not do it to be annoying. They did it, because from an engineering standpoint, that is the correct way to do it. When you maintain polarization in the projector and glasses, you gain brightness for free.

You mentioned this before so I'm educated on that now. Just wish that there was a better selection of glasses. The single model available is ridiculously expensive (the "cheap" version I got directly from Xpand was 2.5x or 5x the cost of the 2 preferred 3D glasses I had settled on for my Sony), and for that price you get something that's either heavier or less comfortable than what's available for the rest of the industry. Also there are no kid size glasses at any price. That's the kind of thing that helped kill 3D in the market.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: stanger89 on October 23, 2017, 01:00:35 PM
WAY easier said than done. I have a motorized Black Diamond so 1) recouping much of the cost of that would be very difficult; 2) getting my wife to let me even look into something like this is not a battle I want to even think about any time soon. It'd probably be less expensive and far easier logistically to sell the JVC and move up the 385, and that isn't happening either.

Understood it's not easy, but if a projector is on the table, a screen should be as well, since, especially if you're talking 385 budget, a screen is probably cheaper.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Paul Heroy on October 23, 2017, 06:57:13 PM
Sorry for dragging this out... but lol. I'm not talking 385 budget, I actually mentioned in that quote that isn't on the table. (If something laser based like the 885 or a true 4K version of Epson's LS10500 shows up at that price point, maybe then.) At the moment I'm somewhat less than gracefully starting to accept that 3D isn't a preferred format by Hollywood for most movies, except for animated content. (Which I do greatly enjoy.) Given that the object oriented soundtracks aren't always on the 3D movies but are reserved for the UHD versions, that is pushing it even more towards making this just an occasional issue as my 3D viewing wanes. So bottom line... I'm not taking an $8k hit for a few 3D movies, to change screens at this point.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: rob-houston on October 23, 2017, 08:41:09 PM
Excellent review, Seegs!  :)

 I had to leave Avsforms because of the obnoxious, snarky little 60fps gamer kids blowing up every 285es thread!  :(

Nice to see a review in thread full of adults!!!!!!!  8)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 23, 2017, 10:09:13 PM
Sorry for dragging this out... but lol. I'm not talking 385 budget, I actually mentioned in that quote that isn't on the table. (If something laser based like the 885 or a true 4K version of Epson's LS10500 shows up at that price point, maybe then.) At the moment I'm somewhat less than gracefully starting to accept that 3D isn't a preferred format by Hollywood for most movies, except for animated content. (Which I do greatly enjoy.) Given that the object oriented soundtracks aren't always on the 3D movies but are reserved for the UHD versions, that is pushing it even more towards making this just an occasional issue as my 3D viewing wanes. So bottom line... I'm not taking an $8k hit for a few 3D movies, to change screens at this point.


What's better for you; less ghosting or less comfort? I can tell you now that ANY Sony SXRD 4K projector is going to have a noticeable amount more ghosting within the 3D image. So even if they bring down the cost of these projectors to your liking, 3D performance just won't be there like it is on your current JVC. If you value 3D as much as you say you do, I'd imagine you'd be okay with some uncomfortable glasses as long as that meant 3D performance was better overall. Going the Sony route may give you more options for 3D glasses, but the 3D experience is not as good as the JVC.

Right now, I'm using the XPand X105's and I think they're pretty comfortable and they pair well with the JVC and my screen.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 24, 2017, 01:09:07 PM
Excellent review, Seegs!  :)

 I had to leave Avsforms because of the obnoxious, snarky little 60fps gamer kids blowing up every 285es thread!  :(

Nice to see a review in thread full of adults!!!!!!!  8)

I see they've started a dedicated thread for the 60hz HDR banding issue. I'm assuming that will keep the talk more about the 285ES/385ES in general in those threads now. Part of the problem is that some owners were trying to shut up some of the more vocal people discussing that issue, of which many were owners as well, and I think that made things worse. I think that it made the conversation about the problem go on longer than it needed to. This seems to be a reoccurring theme over there in the Sony threads. I get that Sony projector owners might be upset that they're under constant attack due to many issues over the years (banding, posterization, panel degradation, ect), but the issues brought up are real and it seems like some owners want to deny outright that these issues exist and that creates a conundrum for those who see these issues and feel they aren't being discussed and brought to light. If Sony is going to fix problems with their projectors, they need to see that people are upset about the problems. Negative discussions about these projectors are actually a good thing in the end. I get a very strong vibe over there that many Sony 4K owners expect constant validation about their purchase and this is something I don't see happening in the Epson and JVC threads. Maybe it's the high cost of these units? I don't know what it is but that entitled/expected validation makes them lash out to any negative comments or criticism towards the projector they own. You just don't see this happening anywhere near as often as you do in the Epson and JVC threads. And the projectors from these companys have plenty of problems too. In general, the conversations in those threads seems far more civil when discussing problems. You just don't see that in the Sony threads and I don't know the exact reason why.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on October 24, 2017, 01:52:14 PM
Some people don't want to hear that their expensive new projector has flaws. Then again, if the banding is mostly with 60fps gaming, and not a problem on 24p movie content, it won't be a problem for non gaming movie watchers. Like everything, it's about a realistic assessment of the strengths and weaknesses vs what you plan to use it for. 
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 24, 2017, 03:49:06 PM
Some people don't want to hear that their expensive new projector has flaws. Then again, if the banding is mostly with 60fps gaming, and not a problem on 24p movie content, it won't be a problem for non gaming movie watchers. Like everything, it's about a realistic assessment of the strengths and weaknesses vs what you plan to use it for. 

That's definitely true. Now that we have a native 4K projector under $5000 we're seeing a lot more gamers enter the projector market. I think that's why we're seeing more criticisms as 60hz is important.  But on top this,  you need to remember that a ton of people are going to be consuming 4K HDR content via Netflix, Amazon, YouTube and other streaming services and devices. Most of the streaming devices for these services only offer a 60p output mode. This means that all of this content, regardless of what the actual frame rate of the content is, will have added banding within the image. But yes, if you're watching UHD BD only you should be fine as there are only a couple 60p titles out at the moment.  But I think we're grossly misunderstanding how most people consume HDR content right now if we're going to assume most are watching UHD BD only. The aforementioned services and devices are how most people consume that type of content and the 285/385ES unfortunately will cause major image artifacts when paired with these HDR streaming services and playback devices due to forced 60p output modes. Then add to this all the gamers out there who only game at 60p with their consoles and I think it becomes clear as to why a lot of people are upset that these projectors have banding issues. The fact remains that 60p HDR is important and these Sony's need a fix.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: farsider3000 on October 24, 2017, 10:35:14 PM
I see they've started a dedicated thread for the 60hz HDR banding issue. I'm assuming that will keep the talk more about the 285ES/385ES in general in those threads now. Part of the problem is that some owners were trying to shut up some of the more vocal people discussing that issue, of which many were owners as well, and I think that made things worse. I think that it made the conversation about the problem go on longer than it needed to. This seems to be a reoccurring theme over there in the Sony threads. I get that Sony projector owners might be upset that they're under constant attack due to many issues over the years (banding, posterization, panel degradation, ect), but the issues brought up are real and it seems like some owners want to deny outright that these issues exist and that creates a conundrum for those who see these issues and feel they aren't being discussed and brought to light. If Sony is going to fix problems with their projectors, they need to see that people are upset about the problems. Negative discussions about these projectors are actually a good thing in the end. I get a very strong vibe over there that many Sony 4K owners expect constant validation about their purchase and this is something I don't see happening in the Epson and JVC threads. Maybe it's the high cost of these units? I don't know what it is but that entitled/expected validation makes them lash out to any negative comments or criticism towards the projector they own. You just don't see this happening anywhere near as often as you do in the Epson and JVC threads. And the projectors from these companys have plenty of problems too. In general, the conversations in those threads seems far more civil when discussing problems. You just don't see that in the Sony threads and I don't know the exact reason why.

I agree.  It's almost like they are dedicated to their brand like Ford or Chevy :).
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: farsider3000 on October 24, 2017, 10:39:01 PM
That's definitely true. Now that we have a native 4K projector under $5000 we're seeing a lot more gamers enter the projector market. I think that's why we're seeing more criticisms as 60hz is important.  But on top this,  you need to remember that a ton of people are going to be consuming 4K HDR content via Netflix, Amazon, YouTube and other streaming services and devices. Most of the streaming devices for these services only offer a 60p output mode. This means that all of this content, regardless of what the actual frame rate of the content is, will have added banding within the image. But yes, if you're watching UHD BD only you should be fine as there are only a couple 60p titles out at the moment.  But I think we're grossly misunderstanding how most people consume HDR content right now if we're going to assume most are watching UHD BD only. The aforementioned services and devices are how most people consume that type of content and the 285/385ES unfortunately will cause major image artifacts when paired with these HDR streaming services and playback devices due to forced 60p output modes. Then add to this all the gamers out there who only game at 60p with their consoles and I think it becomes clear as to why a lot of people are upset that these projectors have banding issues. The fact remains that 60p HDR is important and these Sony's need a fix.

Is it possible that the Sony 385 will be able to display 4k 60Hz HDR without banding?  I am one of those that intends to do quite a bit of gaming in all its 4k 60Hz HDR Atmos/DTS:X glory and am still on the fence about shelling out the cash for something I feel is hamstrung.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: farsider3000 on October 24, 2017, 10:43:30 PM
That's definitely true. Now that we have a native 4K projector under $5000 we're seeing a lot more gamers enter the projector market. I think that's why we're seeing more criticisms as 60hz is important.  But on top this,  you need to remember that a ton of people are going to be consuming 4K HDR content via Netflix, Amazon, YouTube and other streaming services and devices. Most of the streaming devices for these services only offer a 60p output mode. This means that all of this content, regardless of what the actual frame rate of the content is, will have added banding within the image. But yes, if you're watching UHD BD only you should be fine as there are only a couple 60p titles out at the moment.  But I think we're grossly misunderstanding how most people consume HDR content right now if we're going to assume most are watching UHD BD only. The aforementioned services and devices are how most people consume that type of content and the 285/385ES unfortunately will cause major image artifacts when paired with these HDR streaming services and playback devices due to forced 60p output modes. Then add to this all the gamers out there who only game at 60p with their consoles and I think it becomes clear as to why a lot of people are upset that these projectors have banding issues. The fact remains that 60p HDR is important and these Sony's need a fix.

We have to remember that those "gamers" are getting older and older.   ;) I am 48, family guy, and don't intend to stop gaming.  My current JVC 4910 looks amazing except for the lag.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: stanger89 on October 25, 2017, 07:42:04 AM
Is it possible that the Sony 385 will be able to display 4k 60Hz HDR without banding?  I am one of those that intends to do quite a bit of gaming in all its 4k 60Hz HDR Atmos/DTS:X glory and am still on the fence about shelling out the cash for something I feel is hamstrung.

Never buy anything hoping it will get fixed later, unless that fix is already available.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 25, 2017, 11:46:25 AM
Is it possible that the Sony 385 will be able to display 4k 60Hz HDR without banding?  I am one of those that intends to do quite a bit of gaming in all its 4k 60Hz HDR Atmos/DTS:X glory and am still on the fence about shelling out the cash for something I feel is hamstrung.

I forget who it was, but someone has already contacted Sony ES support and they told him this problem was a hardware issue and was not something that could be fixed via firmware update. But obviously a confirmation of this from someone higher up would be needed to know 100% what the issue is.

Personally speaking, I do think this is a hardware limitation. Sony seems to have been squeezing the most out of this now 4 year old platform and it's starting to show it's age. JVC has been using a similar approach using a generalized similar platform over the the past 5 or 6 years but we've seen at least 3 new generations of DiLA panels, new wire grid polarizers, new video processing (full 12 bit end to end processing), better QC for the lens, updated I/O (new 18Gbps ports), ect. We really haven't seen Sony do much of anything with this platform. We're still seeing the same SXRD panels from 2011, supposedly better QC with the lens but I'd argue it's a lackluster lens in general for the price, contrast has not seen the same percentage increases in performance as we've seen the JVCs get, the I/O still hasn't been updated to full 18Gbps and it seems the video processing chain and panel driver are two HUGE bottlenecks causing artifacts within the image. The video processing limitations are there in several places such as this 10 bit banding problem, but also we don't have 4K frame interpolation. I can't post over in the other forum, but have the 285ES/385ES owners over there check this 8 and 10 bit pattern out. You'll easily see the panel driver limitation when playing this test pattern back:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B68jIlCvW85gMW5aX21CbU1IOGs/view

There should be no banding with this test pattern when showing the 10bit portion of the pattern. I should note that it's 4K24p SDR. The JVCs show this pattern just fine, but my 285ES did not, nor has any of the 4K SXRD projectors I've here. Basically what I'm trying to say here is that Sony needs a massive overhaul to it's 4K SXRD platform that spans from it's video processing solution, to I/O and all the way down the SXRD panel level if it wants to compete seriously from here on out. There are too many bottlenecks and limitations with the way things currently stand.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on October 25, 2017, 11:48:37 AM
Never buy anything hoping it will get fixed later, unless that fix is already available.

Good advice. No one can predict whether a fix will be successful anyway, although in the case of JVC's CMD fix, it appears to be. 
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: stanger89 on October 25, 2017, 12:13:02 PM
Good advice. No one can predict whether a fix will be successful anyway, although in the case of JVC's CMD fix, it appears to be.

Yup, prior to the fix being announced/deployed, the same logic applied, if CMD not banding was important to you, don't get a JVC then.  Fortunately it's out now and working so it seems safe to buy now.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: stanger89 on October 25, 2017, 12:14:04 PM
Basically what I'm trying to say here is that Sony needs a massive overhaul to it's 4K SXRD platform that spans from it's video processing solution, to I/O and all the way down the SXRD panel level if it wants to compete seriously from here on out. There are too many bottlenecks and limitations with the way things currently stand.

It was really kind of disappointing, and surprising that the VW5000 wasn't that major overhaul.  The RS4500 somewhat was for JVC.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on October 25, 2017, 02:52:58 PM
Is it possible that the Sony 385 will be able to display 4k 60Hz HDR without banding?  I am one of those that intends to do quite a bit of gaming in all its 4k 60Hz HDR Atmos/DTS:X glory and am still on the fence about shelling out the cash for something I feel is hamstrung.

It should, since it can do 13.5Gbps, but no guarantee that Sony will fix it, but I think they will.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 25, 2017, 03:39:09 PM
It should, since it can do 13.5Gbps, but no guarantee that Sony will fix it, but I think they will.

The HDMI port has the capability to accept it, sure, but who knows where else bottlenecks or processing power restrictions lie inside the projector past the HDMI ports. Maybe Sony can find a workaround or fix. We'll see.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 25, 2017, 05:29:43 PM
It was really kind of disappointing, and surprising that the VW5000 wasn't that major overhaul.  The RS4500 somewhat was for JVC.

I was in contact with a few 5000ES owners who were disappointed with the 5000ES due to the posterization and mild banding that I've shown in close up shots. They didn't want to post publicly after seeing how much flak I received when trying to talk about it. Like I tried to point out in my comparison to the RS400, they also thought these issues wipe away a layer of fine detail. But these guys were essentially forced to keep the 5000ES because they had massive screens. There really isn't anything else out there that has the same performance metrics that the 5000ES has so they're fine with some resolution loss to gain the brightness and contrast performance it has.

Andreas mentioned earlier he sees the same issues on the 885ES. I'm really hoping we see Sony come out with a MKII .74" SXRD panel to get rid of these problems. I think JVCs 4K DiLA panels are going to blow the Sony's out of the water once we see some native 4K competition at the price points these current SXRD units are at. Hopefully next year! As I said in my comparison, there's nothing wrong with these SXRD units, but I don't think the reason you should be buying one is because it's native 4K. These issues take away some of the potential resolution increases it could have if these issues weren't present over eshift. Buy it if you like better motion, better ANSI contrast and if you like a more analog looking image.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: stanger89 on October 26, 2017, 07:54:34 AM
I was in contact with a few 5000ES owners who were disappointed with the 5000ES due to the posterization and mild banding that I've shown in close up shots. They didn't want to post publicly after seeing how much flak I received when trying to talk about it. Like I tried to point out in my comparison to the RS400, they also thought these issues wipe away a layer of fine detail. But these guys were essentially forced to keep the 5000ES because they had massive screens. There really isn't anything else out there that has the same performance metrics that the 5000ES has so they're fine with some resolution loss to gain the brightness and contrast performance it has.

Yup, just like the old days with the "Big Iron" DLPs, they had worse contrast than their smaller HT siblings but the folks with huge screens needed the light only the big guns had.  As we know, there's just no replacement for lumens.

Quote
Andreas mentioned earlier he sees the same issues on the 885ES. I'm really hoping we see Sony come out with a MKII .74" SXRD panel to get rid of these problems. I think JVCs 4K DiLA panels are going to blow the Sony's out of the water once we see some native 4K competition at the price points these current SXRD units are at.

Yeah, I hope so.  Competition is always good.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Andreas21 on October 27, 2017, 06:13:35 PM
I calibrated a VW260 today and these new 4K models from Sony are waaay off out of the box now, I talked to a fellow calibrator and he has calibrated many of these and tells me the same thing. The grayscale is way off and it really needs a big correction via the Sony Pro Calibration tool to come close to the standards. The owner only uses it for SDR so I did not do a HDR calibration on it, and I was not able to check HDR out as he had no UHD player.

I was able to calibrate it to reference results (all Delta E under 1) after big adjustments in the Pro software. It looked good and it ended up at 72 nits (not close to HDR looking good anyway) in high lamp with the contrast at 95 on a 120" Dreamscreen V6 AT screen. It looked good, but as you all know it has it´s problems, and this unit was no exception.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on October 27, 2017, 08:34:22 PM
How do you like the DreamScreen V6? I think it is a great AT screen fabric.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Andreas21 on October 28, 2017, 04:44:57 AM
How do you like the DreamScreen V6? I think it is a great AT screen fabric.

I think it is quite good, but I am not going to go the AT screen way in the near future.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on October 28, 2017, 10:11:48 AM
I think it is quite good, but I am not going to go the AT screen way in the near future.

I plan on changing my fabric out for V6. Just have to get motivated to do so. :)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Madfloyd on October 29, 2017, 02:53:53 PM
Dylan, thanks for your review - it was very well written and looks like a lot of work went into it.

Can you perhaps expand on two comparison items?

1) the more analog presentation of the Sony
    what makes it look more analog - the ANSI performance?

2) better motion on the Sony
    Is this visible in a moving object within a static scene, judder during camera pans, or both?

Thanks again.

Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on October 29, 2017, 07:26:34 PM
Dylan, thanks for your review - it was very well written and looks like a lot of work went into it.

Can you perhaps expand on two comparison items?

1) the more analog presentation of the Sony
    what makes it look more analog - the ANSI performance?

2) better motion on the Sony
    Is this visible in a moving object within a static scene, judder during camera pans, or both?

Thanks again.



With regards to the more analog looking image on the Sony, this is one of the more difficult qualities that the Sony possesses over the JVC to put into words. I don't think this has to do with ANSI contrast. The image on screen simply looks a little less "harsh". I don't really know how else to describe it. I would say a good analogy would be a CRT display vs LCD display, though not as extreme. There is just a very slight amount more digital look to the JVC. It's not much more, but if you compare the two images next to one another it's something you can see. The Sony's image has this analog softness where the JVC looks a bit more lively and punchy. Some people will read this and think I mean that the JVC looks noiser or has flicker or something along those lines. I don't mean lively in that sense. Simply put, the Sony just looks a little more laid back.

With regards to motion the Sony has a small amount less blur when a camera pans. Neither are DLP or Plasma good due to both projectors being LCD-based, but the Sony is a little better. This is more than likely due to the SXRD panels having a faster G2G response time than the JVCs DiLA panels. The difference is not large and I don't think most people would be upset with the JVC's native motion handling, but for the purposes of comparison it should be noted the Sony 4Ks do a slightly better job. Judder is essentially the same between the two projectors. Both will render 24p, 25p 30p or 60p cadence properly. If there is judder in the source (and a lot of movies and TV shows shot at 24p do have judder in the source) both projectors will show it. If you don't like source judder, you'll want to enable creative frame interpolation on either projector.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES Thread
Post by: rob-houston on November 01, 2017, 10:45:01 AM
Interesting going to VW285ES(260) reviews at Kraine's (ww.projection-homecinema.fr) and hdtvpolska.com and then reading what they have to say about the JVC4x0(5500). Looks to me the only reason to buy the Sony is that it's 4k.

I got a HW45es in December as an interim projector. I'm happy with it. It does pretty well in my almost all black family room.

Going to be interesting to see how these websites review the new 440 with the E-shift5.

Hope seegs gets one to review. I value his opinion.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: DavidHir on November 03, 2017, 08:47:02 PM
I just got my RS440 in yesterday thanks to Mike.  Very impressed with the unit overall.  I had been using the X500/RS4910 with the Linker + UB900 for UHD BD.  It's a big step up - and eshift5 is really nice.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 03, 2017, 09:14:42 PM
My RS400 used to compare against the 285ES was a used unit recently sent in to Mendtronix. It needed a new power supply and main board. I don't think that Mendtronix puts these units through a calibration before they leave after a mainboard swap. I could tell it was quite a bit off color/greyscale-wise, but up until the last week, I simply did not have the time to put in a proper calibration. I took some measurements last night to see what I was up against:

(https://i.imgur.com/NNIWSuL.png)

I have some free time this weekend. Gonna tackle the calibration tonight hopefully.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on November 03, 2017, 10:28:53 PM
I just got my RS440 in yesterday thanks to Mike.  Very impressed with the unit overall.  I had been using the X500/RS4910 with the Linker + UB900 for UHD BD.  It's a big step up - and eshift5 is really nice.

More likely a 420, but that will be very close to the same.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: mrtvgame on November 11, 2017, 07:56:17 AM
Hi folks,

I am a long time reader here but fist time poster so go easy.

I currently have an Epson 5030UB running on a 115 inch 2.4 gain screen.  It is in a family room situation so while light can be an issue, it can be controlled.

I am having an itch to upgrade the projector to take advantage of 4k and HDR sources such as 4k blu-ray, 4k streaming services, PS4 Pro, Xbox One X and of course 3D.

I was all set and happy to jump on the 285 until the reviews and initial reactions with it having problems not doing 4k60 from sources properly.  Banding and what not.

I also consider JVC DLA-X590 or older DLA-X750R.

I am in Canada so prices are adjusted to exchange.  I can get the 285 for around $5100, the X590 for around $4250 and a demo unit X750R for around $4500.  I do not want to go must past $5200 as I will need to update the AVR receiver as well.

Or should I just hold out and see what 2018 brings?

What's important:
PQ all around
3D quality
Noise of fan

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 11, 2017, 01:23:30 PM
The short answer I can give you is that, based on what's important to you, the X750 will be the best choice. In general, I feel that you need to step up to the high end Sony's (such as the 885ES or 5000ES) to give comparable overall image quality. The 285ES simply lacks the brightness and contrast to compete with these JVC projectors and this was something that was easy to see when I had the 285ES here. In my comparison post earlier in this thread, I tried my best to explain why I don't think eshift is giving much up in the way of on screen apparent resolution. This is mainly due to a few issues with how Sony drives their SXRD panels, which means they're not able to display the source signal faithfully. But I also think this has to do with how mature JVCs eshift technology has become.

3D is overall a better experience on the JVCs as well. There's shockingly low amounts of ghosting/crosstalk. It's to the point where it's almost indistinguishable from a DLP projector. By comparison, the 285ES still has a "typical" amount of ghosting normally associated with LCD based displays. When compared directly to the 285ES, you're getting a lot more lumens on the JVC as well which is always helpful when watching 3D due to a large loss of light when viewing through active 3D glasses.

Fan noise is also in favor of the JVCs. I mentioned in my comparison that to brightness match the JVC in low lamp mode, you have to put the Sony in high lamp mode and the difference in audible noise is massive when comparing the two. To achieve 1200 lumens of light (JVCs low lamp light output) the Sony needs to be in high lamp mode. You can hear the relative difference here with a recording I took:

https://youtu.be/rAoLXUjTESU

The Sony does have an advantage with some 4K source material, but my findings are that 95%+ of the time, I find eshift on the JVC to give the same amount of subjective image detail on screen. The times I do notice that the Sony looks a bit sharper is almost always when there's text on screen. It's really only when the JVC needs to render things requiring square pixels, which is what text needs, that you can tell the JVC isn't native 4K. Again though, it's such a rare instance in seeing this and these moments are usually fleeting. I find the overall raw image quality of the JVCs easily makes up for the few moments where you might have a suspicion about eshift not being quite as good as a native 4K projector.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on November 11, 2017, 10:53:43 PM
Hi folks,

I am a long time reader here but fist time poster so go easy.

I currently have an Epson 5030UB running on a 115 inch 2.4 gain screen.  It is in a family room situation so while light can be an issue, it can be controlled.

I am having an itch to upgrade the projector to take advantage of 4k and HDR sources such as 4k blu-ray, 4k streaming services, PS4 Pro, Xbox One X and of course 3D.

I was all set and happy to jump on the 285 until the reviews and initial reactions with it having problems not doing 4k60 from sources properly.  Banding and what not.

I also consider JVC DLA-X590 or older DLA-X750R.

I am in Canada so prices are adjusted to exchange.  I can get the 285 for around $5100, the X590 for around $4250 and a demo unit X750R for around $4500.  I do not want to go must past $5200 as I will need to update the AVR receiver as well.

Or should I just hold out and see what 2018 brings?

What's important:
PQ all around
3D quality
Noise of fan

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Sent you an email.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: rob-houston on November 21, 2017, 10:49:15 AM
Kraine has posted his review of the DLA-X5900 (DLA-RS440) here: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projection-homecinema.fr%2F&sandbox=1 (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projection-homecinema.fr%2F&sandbox=1).

Some quotes:
"Lcos technology generally gives a very uniform image. The X5900 is no exception to the rule, no appearance of bright corners as it could produce in the past or hot spot."

"Ultra HD support was already at a very good level on the latest generation JVC, this year some progress has been made with a slightly larger color space obtained thanks to an internal filter and a dynamic iris now operational in HDR ."
First I've seen of any mention of a slightly larger color space obtained by an internal filter!

"JVC also announces that HDMI sync has been improved and lag input has been further reduced. The manufacturer also highlights that the integrated 18Gb / s HDMI chipset supports color resolutions up to 4: 4: 4: 4: 4 or 36bit even at 50Hz and 60Hz. This is a distinct advantage in 4K compared to Sony, which is limited to 13.5 Gb / s."

"A day in the life of Billy Lynn, ultra HD HFR 60fps is read without problem by the JVC with its 18Gbps HDMI chipset ."

99% Final Rating!

Looks like a really good review of a golden sample! I wonder if I could buy it from him!

Now, Dylan, it's your turn to acquire a RS440 to evaluate!   ;)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 21, 2017, 01:32:16 PM
Now, Dylan, it's your turn to acquire a RS440 to evaluate! ;)

I'm anxious to see eshift5 in person but in the mean time something extremely similar is coming soon. Stay tuned!
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: darinp on November 21, 2017, 02:04:22 PM
Kraine has posted his review of the DLA-X5900 (DLA-RS440) here: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projection-homecinema.fr%2F&sandbox=1 (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projection-homecinema.fr%2F&sandbox=1).
Looks to me like these guys still need to figure out basic physics given this:

"The measurement of the contrast of a projector is very difficult in the case where the screen is taken into account. The role played by the environment is very important (amount of light reflected by the walls)."

which they seem to think applies to on/off CR. I don't put much faith at all in any review of a JVC projector that gets less than 7k:1 native on/off CR and especially less than 7k:1 dynamic on/off CR (in Auto1).

JVC engineers the capability for very higher on/off CR into these projectors and then some people set them up to ruin that.

Just noticed that this is a Sony thread. Anybody know if DIRECTV has 4K sports in 60p and whether that would have banding with the 285 or 385?

--Darin
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: TWISM on November 21, 2017, 03:29:00 PM
Looks to me like these guys still need to figure out basic physics given this:

"The measurement of the contrast of a projector is very difficult in the case where the screen is taken into account. The role played by the environment is very important (amount of light reflected by the walls)."

which they seem to think applies to on/off CR. I don't put much faith at all in any review of a JVC projector that gets less than 7k:1 native on/off CR and especially less than 7k:1 dynamic on/off CR (in Auto1).

JVC engineers the capability for very higher on/off CR into these projectors and then some people set them up to ruin that.

Just noticed that this is a Sony thread. Anybody know if DIRECTV has 4K sports in 60p and whether that would have banding with the 285 or 385?

--Darin

It should only be with 4K 60 with HDR.

I watched a college game this weekend on Dish Network and they had it in 4K. No banding on a 385.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on November 21, 2017, 05:51:46 PM
Looks to me like these guys still need to figure out basic physics given this:

"The measurement of the contrast of a projector is very difficult in the case where the screen is taken into account. The role played by the environment is very important (amount of light reflected by the walls)."

which they seem to think applies to on/off CR. I don't put much faith at all in any review of a JVC projector that gets less than 7k:1 native on/off CR and especially less than 7k:1 dynamic on/off CR (in Auto1).

JVC engineers the capability for very higher on/off CR into these projectors and then some people set them up to ruin that.

Just noticed that this is a Sony thread. Anybody know if DIRECTV has 4K sports in 60p and whether that would have banding with the 285 or 385?

--Darin

Also we might ask Kraine, what filter he is talking about? The RS440 does not have a filter to drop in the light path.

No banding with 4K 60P source, unless it also has HDR.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Andreas21 on November 26, 2017, 12:07:33 PM
I see Kraine still does not know how to measure contrast, no JVC measures this low. 4000:1 on off and 16000:1 with the DI is simply ridiculous. I have measured many many JVC X5000/5500 and RS400/420, but none of the 5900/440 yet. And all of the ones I have measured around 15-20000:1 on off with the manual iris set to 0 and 35-40000:1 with it set to -15 this is of corse dependent on zoom. With the DI on and isis set to 0 they measure around 150000:1. This is with at least 20 different units and I highly doubt the 5900 measures worse than the older models.

But this has been the case with Kraine always and he does not learn from his mistakes and still does this in the wrong way, I guess he does not know the right way to calibrate these JVC´s either. What is a little frightening is that he is a respected member of this community in France.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 26, 2017, 05:43:16 PM
Has he mentioned how he's measuring contrast? Based on the numbers I would guess he's measuring from the screen using a colorimeter. He should get a proper lux meter and measure from the lens very close to it.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Andreas21 on November 26, 2017, 06:01:19 PM
Has he mentioned how he's measuring contrast? Based on the numbers I would guess he's measuring from the screen using a colorimeter. He should get a proper lux meter and measure from the lens very close to it.

It depends on the colorimeter, a Klein K10A is capable of measuring the contrast of a JVC even from the screen.

What I do when I want to be really accurate (this is because Calman has some issues with black readings and when they get really low as with a JVC it can give you big variations)  I turn my K10A towards the lens and use the diffusor, the K10A is much more accurate than any lux meter you can buy for a normal amount of money. I also use a lux meter sometimes, but mostly my K10A.

If you use a C6 colorimeter or something like it you will get contrast numbers of millions:1 on a JVC. 8)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 26, 2017, 07:16:19 PM
It depends on the colorimeter, a Klein K10A is capable of measuring the contrast of a JVC even from the screen.

What I do when I want to be really accurate (this is because Calman has some issues with black readings and when they get really low as with a JVC it can give you big variations)  I turn my K10A towards the lens and use the diffusor, the K10A is much more accurate than any lux meter you can buy for a normal amount of money. I also use a lux meter sometimes, but mostly my K10A.

If you use a C6 colorimeter or something like it you will get contrast numbers of millions:1 on a JVC. 8)

I seriously doubt he's using a K10A. I'm using an X-Rite i1Display Pro (EODIS3) colorimeter and I find that my Minolta CL-200 is way more accurate for contrast readings. If I remember correctly the C6 has the exact same hardware as my X-Rite, just rebranded for Spectracal and calibrated by far more accurate equipment.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Andreas21 on November 27, 2017, 04:13:47 AM
X-Rite i1Display Pro is not even close to sensitive enough to read black on a JVC projector, and yes the C6 is a X-Rite with another look.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 28, 2017, 04:44:05 PM
I was reading that people having figured out how to use Arve's tool with these Sony 4K units. As I noted in my shootout, the 285/385ES doesn't look all that great with HDR out of the box, despite what many people on the other forum were saying (I assume they don't know what HDR is supposed to look like or have no way to measure). It was difficult to get better performance with the regular menu controls. It's a bit  funny to see Sony users using something made for JVC projectors to fix an issue.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on November 28, 2017, 05:56:41 PM
I was reading that people having figured out how to use Arve's tool with these Sony 4K units. As I noted in my shootout, the 285/385ES doesn't look all that great with HDR out of the box, despite what many people on the other forum were saying (I assume they don't know what HDR is supposed to look like or have no way to measure). It was difficult to get better performance with the regular menu controls. It's a bit  funny to see Sony users using something made for JVC projectors to fix an issue.

Whatever works. I did find that interesting. Everybody wants better HDR !
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: rob-houston on November 28, 2017, 06:08:51 PM
Whatever works. I did find that interesting. Everybody wants better HDR !

Get a LED LCD TV!  ;)  :o

But.... size matters!  more! :)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on November 28, 2017, 06:18:54 PM
Get a LED LCD TV!  ;)  :o

But.... size matters!  more! :)

I prefer projection - still looks better, and it's bigger too. Even with some HDR short comings. A TV just looks like a TV. I don't like light reflecting off the glass. I'll never have a TV in my home theater. It's a theater !
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 28, 2017, 06:50:12 PM
Whatever works. I did find that interesting. Everybody wants better HDR !

I should have phrased that better.  I didn't mean that it's funny they were using Arves tool. So many Sony projector owners hate JVC products and vice versa. The funny part is that something made for their arch enemy is helping them achieve better HDR performance.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on November 28, 2017, 07:09:50 PM
I should have phrased that better.  I didn't mean that it's funny they were using Arves tool. So many Sony projector owners hate JVC products and vice versa. The funny part is that something made for their arch enemy is helping them achieve better HDR performance.

Ya, I did get the irony. Still, we shouldn't " hate " on other manufacturers - these are just a form of TV. I think everyone just gets upset to find out their new projector isn't the perfect projector they have been searching for. Nobody likes having their flaws pointed out, or their projectors!  :-[ :)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 28, 2017, 11:44:36 PM
Ya, I did get the irony. Still, we shouldn't " hate " on other manufacturers - these are just a form of TV. I think everyone just gets upset to find out their new projector isn't the perfect projector they have been searching for. Nobody likes having their flaws pointed out, or their projectors!  :-[ :)

I get that some people don't like being told their projector has flaws. But I think those are the kinds of people who shouldn't be posting on a forum. The reason why these forums exist is because people are looking to gain knowledge about a product they're interested in buying. When you have people in threads who's only mission is to try and quiet down the criticisms about a product they own, all it does for potential buyers is hide the whole story and truth about that product.

I've said this many tines, but JVC projector owners usually let discussions about negative aspects happen. You only see criticism or backlash if what's being said is just plain wrong or misguided. I don't see the same thing happening in Sony owners threads. Certain people are on a mission to report posts so they're deleted and downplay issues. I don't know specifically why, but if I had to guess it's that they cost more (making it harder to justify/live with the issues) but also that the issues they do have are generally more detrimental to the overall image which make them far more likely to be talked about which means these people are constantly reminded about them. Part of the reason there's so much conflict on the other forum is because there are rock-headed owners who simply won't call a spade a spade and admit that an issue is as prevalent or as intrusive as it actually is. Thus the arguments happen. I'll reference SXRD panel degradation, quality control issues, posterization/banding issues and the most recent being the 4K/60p HDR banding issue. All of these problems have been hushed up or talked about as if they were a non-issue by these people and some people won't stand for that especially when the people trying to hush things up try and tell others that Sony projectors are superior to all others.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: stanger89 on November 30, 2017, 12:44:31 PM
Ya, I did get the irony. Still, we shouldn't " hate " on other manufacturers - these are just a form of TV. I think everyone just gets upset to find out their new projector isn't the perfect projector they have been searching for. Nobody likes having their flaws pointed out, or their projectors!  :-[ :)

I did notice they couldn't help but take pot-shots at JVC in the process:
"Creates 1024 (10Bit) steps Gamma curves for Sony-Projectors instead of only 256 (8Bit) curves for JVC projectors"

Personally, I think it's great news.  Actually makes me more likely to get a Sony projector at some point.  I'm really not entirely happy with my JVC, mainly for ergonomic issues, but also how JVC releases firmware updates only in the form of new models.  If Sony (or anyone else) came close to my RS600's image quality I'd happily change.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on November 30, 2017, 01:17:44 PM
I did notice they couldn't help but take pot-shots at JVC in the process:
"Creates 1024 (10Bit) steps Gamma curves for Sony-Projectors instead of only 256 (8Bit) curves for JVC projectors"

Personally, I think it's great news.  Actually makes me more likely to get a Sony projector at some point.  I'm really not entirely happy with my JVC, mainly for ergonomic issues, but also how JVC releases firmware updates only in the form of new models.  If Sony (or anyone else) came close to my RS600's image quality I'd happily change.

Firmware updates with Sony are not any better, but the process is better for installation. JVC's will improve, as soon as JVC goes to a new housing.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 30, 2017, 01:35:35 PM
I did notice they couldn't help but take pot-shots at JVC in the process:
"Creates 1024 (10Bit) steps Gamma curves for Sony-Projectors instead of only 256 (8Bit) curves for JVC projectors"

Personally, I think it's great news.  Actually makes me more likely to get a Sony projector at some point.  I'm really not entirely happy with my JVC, mainly for ergonomic issues, but also how JVC releases firmware updates only in the form of new models.  If Sony (or anyone else) came close to my RS600's image quality I'd happily change.

Unfortunately, unless you're willing to spend a lot more money, the Sony's aren't up to the task. You really need to step up to the 885ES or 5000ES to give a comparable image. The 665ES (same as 675ES in principle) did not look better than my RS500 when I did a shootout. I'm curious to see what the shootout happening in Colorado Springs next month will show. They say there will be some blind tests done. I hope they hand out cards to people during the blind tests so they can have people give image characteristic specific ratings before they're told which unit is which. The card could look like:

                                                 Projector A:               Projector B:

(Rate 1 to 10: 10 being best)

Perceived Sharpness                ___________              ___________

Perceived Resolution                ___________              ___________

Contrast Performance              ___________              ___________

Motion Performance                 ___________              ___________

3D Performance                       ___________              ___________

Perceived Color Accuracy         ___________              ___________

ect
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on November 30, 2017, 01:50:41 PM
I did notice they couldn't help but take pot-shots at JVC in the process:
"Creates 1024 (10Bit) steps Gamma curves for Sony-Projectors instead of only 256 (8Bit) curves for JVC projectors"

Personally, I think it's great news.  Actually makes me more likely to get a Sony projector at some point.  I'm really not entirely happy with my JVC, mainly for ergonomic issues, but also how JVC releases firmware updates only in the form of new models.  If Sony (or anyone else) came close to my RS600's image quality I'd happily change.

Everybody has their issues. i don't remember Sony issuing a firmware update to fix panel / contrast degradation. The fact is companies need to sell projectors to be able to afford to hire software engineers and people to design better projectors. Oh look - Digital Projection now has a native 8K DLP projector ! Soon everything will once again be obsolete ( including all of your HDMI cables, receivers etc. ). Ain't no firmware update to change that.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on November 30, 2017, 04:36:43 PM
Everybody has their issues. i don't remember Sony issuing a firmware update to fix panel / contrast degradation. The fact is companies need to sell projectors to be able to afford to hire software engineers and people to design better projectors. Oh look - Digital Projection now has a native 8K DLP projector ! Soon everything will once again be obsolete ( including all of your HDMI cables, receivers etc. ). Ain't no firmware update to change that.

Software issues are one thing, but hardware issues as big as the one you're referencing is something one could argue shouldn't be there to begin with. Imagine buying a corvette that starts out being able to go 0-60 in 3.5 seconds with a top speed of 175mph and a year later that same car goes 0-60 in 9 seconds and can only go 110mph. Would that be acceptable to you especially when it was advertised to do those speeds? Or would it be acceptable for the manufacturer to not even acknowledge publicly the issues and also not really fix the issue over the next several years? I still don't feel 100% comfortable with Sony. While it may be lessened, I doubt degradation is completely gone. Only time will tell...

I wonder if the same guys who give Sony a pass (or try and make it seem as if the issue isn't real) would be doing the same thing if JVC were the ones with the issue? I think not. These people are the reason there's so many arguments on  the other forum. I can tell you now, if it were JVC with these issues I'd be just as vocal about it as I am with Sony. It's unacceptable no matter who has the problem and I would never downplay the issue or try and make it seem as if it was a conspiracy with no validity to it. And unfortunately that's what many people do on the other forum.  Why would Sony fix the problem when they have fanboys who tell people there's no issue to begin with? It's no wonder why this issue was prevalent for as long as it was...(and probably still there to some degree)

Sorry if I'm being aggressive here, but as you can imagine I'm just a bit salty over all of this after having spent years (literally) arguing about this issue with people who've actively tried to make it seem as if the issue wasn't real. The same people also do the same thing about other SXRD related issues. The kicker is, if they treated the issues like most JVC owners do by acknowledging them and discussing them openly, there would be less arguments and the issues would more than likely be resolved much faster. But they won't do that because they own a "perfect" projector. It's really sad.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on November 30, 2017, 06:05:16 PM
Ya, a guy in the VW885 thread just said that contrast loss in previous Sony's is just a rumor. One thing I haven't heard about for quite a while is the dreaded " pink stripe " JVC optical block issue. Seems like that may be far less common these days.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on December 01, 2017, 03:35:33 PM
Ya, a guy in the VW885 thread just said that contrast loss in previous Sony's is just a rumor. One thing I haven't heard about for quite a while is the dreaded " pink stripe " JVC optical block issue. Seems like that may be far less common these days.

That issue went away starting with the RS40.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on December 01, 2017, 03:52:33 PM
That issue went away starting with the RS40.

Seems like that was more a problem with models like the RS25.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on December 01, 2017, 09:27:06 PM
That is a problem that can happen with any 3-chip design. While it was more prevalent on the (much) older JVC models, I've still seen people show photos of it happening on current Epson and Sony models. I would imagine it happens more often where a projector gets dusty internally and/or is being used in a room without proper cooling/ventilation. The glue holding the block together will break down faster if it's put under a lot of heat for a long period of time. I actually have an air purifier going constantly when no one is in the room so that dust buildup in the projector doesn't happen as fast and my room is air conditioned in the summer.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on December 02, 2017, 08:39:51 AM
I was only talking about the JVC's. Before the RS40, you fairly regularly read about optical block failure on the JVC's. After the RS40, you do not see people talking about this issue.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Andreas21 on December 04, 2017, 12:47:33 PM
Software issues are one thing, but hardware issues as big as the one you're referencing is something one could argue shouldn't be there to begin with. Imagine buying a corvette that starts out being able to go 0-60 in 3.5 seconds with a top speed of 175mph and a year later that same car goes 0-60 in 9 seconds and can only go 110mph. Would that be acceptable to you especially when it was advertised to do those speeds? Or would it be acceptable for the manufacturer to not even acknowledge publicly the issues and also not really fix the issue over the next several years? I still don't feel 100% comfortable with Sony. While it may be lessened, I doubt degradation is completely gone. Only time will tell...

I wonder if the same guys who give Sony a pass (or try and make it seem as if the issue isn't real) would be doing the same thing if JVC were the ones with the issue? I think not. These people are the reason there's so many arguments on  the other forum. I can tell you now, if it were JVC with these issues I'd be just as vocal about it as I am with Sony. It's unacceptable no matter who has the problem and I would never downplay the issue or try and make it seem as if it was a conspiracy with no validity to it. And unfortunately that's what many people do on the other forum.  Why would Sony fix the problem when they have fanboys who tell people there's no issue to begin with? It's no wonder why this issue was prevalent for as long as it was...(and probably still there to some degree)

Sorry if I'm being aggressive here, but as you can imagine I'm just a bit salty over all of this after having spent years (literally) arguing about this issue with people who've actively tried to make it seem as if the issue wasn't real. The same people also do the same thing about other SXRD related issues. The kicker is, if they treated the issues like most JVC owners do by acknowledging them and discussing them openly, there would be less arguments and the issues would more than likely be resolved much faster. But they won't do that because they own a "perfect" projector. It's really sad.

I see the problem just like you and I would also do exactly the same I have done over the years with the Sony degradation if it was a JVC problem. Many banned users on the other forum is banned because of these Sony Fanboys and I think it is quite sa actually.

I am the first to say the JVCs are far from perfect, but I have been called a JVC fanboy by many over there. I am not fan of a brand, I am a fan of projection and I will as long as I keep on buying projectors buy the one I think gives me what I look for inside the limits of my budget. And the last years it is JVC projectors that matches this the closest.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on December 10, 2017, 12:32:43 PM
I just read John Schuermann's post on the other forum about the shootout he had at his house over the weekend. He said:

Quote
Just a few thoughts, as we expect a much smaller crowd today. Yesterday was packed - thanks to all that came!

From my poll of the six people left at the end of the day, it was 5 out of 6 thought the JVCs were the winner overall, both the RS640 and RS4500. People were coming in and out during the day, so there were some I was not able to query but will be following up.

Couple of issues I noticed being right up in the front at the screen:

The Sonys all looked slightly soft and "flat" to me. I used my usual closeup of Aaron Eckhart in a shot toward the end of SULLY that reveals fine details in the texture of his shirt. The RS4500 clearly revealed every stitch in the weave, while on both the Sonys the stitches were hard to make out. Of course, this is the stuff that is only noticeable close to the screen, but still was surprising to me. Even here I did not see that much difference with the eShift vs. the native 4K panels on the Sonys.

The JVC RS640 did look a bit dark, simply in terms of how it rose out of black (I agree with Jerry here). Another person shared the same thoughts, and Gregg and I thought they had a point. We went in during the last hour and tweaked the picture tone and dark level controls on the JVC and that brought the rise out of black much more in line with what was seen on the Sony. This tweak just adjusted the rise out of black but of course did not affect contrast. Even the two people I know of who preferred the Sony (including Jerry, clearly) acknowledged the clearly better black levels of the JVC RS640 over all the other projectors (inlcuding the 4500).

Today with the Sonys I am going to go into the service menu and use ArrowAV's tweak to override Sony's locked panel alignment and see if I can get back some Sony sharpness.

RE: Billy Lynn and banding with the 385. I didn't see any in the brief sequences we watched. However, when we played Billy Lynn on the 640, the wider color gamut was clearly visible.

Just my thoughts, mixed in with some shared thoughts from several others. Hopefully others will join in.

Gregg and I are also going to play with the HDR contrast setting on the Sony's a bit more today. During the scene in SULLY where Tom Hanks jogs through Times Square, we noticed that some of the bright neon signs were getting blown out on the Sonys. We dialed back the HDR contrast setting to bring out the detail in bright areas of the picture, but this did "flatten out" the image somewhat (obviously decreasing overall brightness and "pop" as a result). In fairness, though, the Times Square scene in SULLY is a true torture test for this kind of thing, and this is one of the areas where projector compromises often need to be made, as projection systems are not inclined to handle specular highlights as well as something like a Z series Sony or OLED.

IMO, the RS4500 was the overall "winner," but I'd be curious to hear other's thoughts. And I will repeat what I said in my previous review - I can't imagine anyone going wrong with any of these projectors.

BTW, anyone at yesterdays shootout who wants to come back for a "redo" with some of the tweaks mentioned above is welcome to return. We still have plenty of food, beer and wine left over

This kind of mirrors my thoughts. The 285/385ES simply lack the brightness and contrast compared to the similarly priced JVCs and the result is a somewhat flatter look overall. I also find it odd that Sony is still shipping these Sony's with the fine-pixel convergence software enabled. If you're viewing from a regular seated distance enabling this is superfluous. You're never going to see sub-pixel misconvergence from this far away anyways. Due to the odd moire and color blotch artifacts it introduces into the image, it should be disabled. The whole-pixel adjustment is more than good enough. I feel that people put way too much stock in convergence correction software anyways. You simply aren't going to reap any benefits from fine-convergence correction at normal seated distances back anyways. Sony should do what JVC does; leave all sub-pixel convergence correction off out of the box and give the end user the option to enable it even if they're okay with the artifacts. The fact that Sony forces people to go into the service menu to turn it off is a bit ridiculous.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on December 10, 2017, 04:01:14 PM
I just read John Schuermann's post on the other forum about the shootout he had at his house over the weekend. He said:

This kind of mirrors my thoughts. The 285/385ES simply lack the brightness and contrast compared to the similarly priced JVCs and the result is a somewhat flatter look overall. I also find it odd that Sony is still shipping these Sony's with the fine-pixel convergence software enabled. If you're viewing from a regular seated distance enabling this is superfluous. You're never going to see sub-pixel misconvergence from this far away anyways. Due to the odd moire and color blotch artifacts it introduces into the image, it should be disabled. The whole-pixel adjustment is more than good enough. I feel that people put way too much stock in convergence correction software anyways. You simply aren't going to reap any benefits from fine-convergence correction at normal seated distances back anyways. Sony should do what JVC does; leave all sub-pixel convergence correction off out of the box and give the end user the option to enable it even if they're okay with the artifacts. The fact that Sony forces people to go into the service menu to turn it off is a bit ridiculous.

I see the problem just like you and I would also do exactly the same I have done over the years with the Sony degradation if it was a JVC problem. Many banned users on the other forum is banned because of these Sony Fanboys and I think it is quite sa actually.

I am the first to say the JVCs are far from perfect, but I have been called a JVC fanboy by many over there. I am not fan of a brand, I am a fan of projection and I will as long as I keep on buying projectors buy the one I think gives me what I look for inside the limits of my budget. And the last years it is JVC projectors that matches this the closest.

I was only talking about the JVC's. Before the RS40, you fairly regularly read about optical block failure on the JVC's. After the RS40, you do not see people talking about this issue.

This was a test. People asked about multi quote. It is available. To use it, quote the post that you are replying to, then scroll down to the topic summary area and select any posts you want multi quoted.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: stanger89 on December 11, 2017, 10:10:58 AM
Sony should do what JVC does; leave all sub-pixel convergence correction off out of the box and give the end user the option to enable it even if they're okay with the artifacts. The fact that Sony forces people to go into the service menu to turn it off is a bit ridiculous.

Or just expose it as a user setting.  I don't really have a problem if they want to do it out of the box, I'm sure most of their customers are happier with it on (I'm sure support calls is why they do it), but give the user an easy way to turn it off if they want.

This was a test. People asked about multi quote. It is available. To use it, quote the post that you are replying to, then scroll down to the topic summary area and select any posts you want multi quoted.

I see.  Good to know, not quite as simple or intuitive as other forum options, but better than having to go back and forth and copy paste.  Thanks for the info :)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on December 11, 2017, 12:34:04 PM
Or just expose it as a user setting.  I don't really have a problem if they want to do it out of the box, I'm sure most of their customers are happier with it on (I'm sure support calls is why they do it), but give the user an easy way to turn it off if they want.

That's kind of what I meant. Take it out of the service menu. But I suspect the reason they do it is to allow for less than optimal factory set physical convergence. This is a cost saving measure so more units pass QC. Is blue off a half pixel?
 That's fine just fix it in software and hide it in the service menu....Unfortunately this comes at a cost in image artifacts. But what does Sony care as most buyers don't have a critical eye.

I'm just reading up on the new shootout/comparison thread on the other forum. I'm glad to see some kind of properly setup comparison done. It helps me validate my own comparisons and opinions made over the years having these projectors here. I'm glad most people are coming away from that meet with the same thoughts in that eshift can keep up with Sony's native 4K projectors. As I've alluded to many times (see here (https://discuss.avscience.com/?topic=1369.msg6414#msg6414) about half way down) Sony could be showing more apparent resolution, probably on par with the RS4500, if most of them weren't using a relatively poor lens, had better video processing and didn't have the issue they all have with color information getting lost and artifacts like posterization and banding occurring because of it obfuscating image detail. These reasons alone are the reasons why the 885ES didn't look anywhere near as good as the RS4500. I'm not asking for an Arc-F lens or the lens used in the RS4500, but something worthy of the $25000 asking price. Hell, the lens used in the $4000 JVC RS440 is nicer than the lens in the $25000 885ES. Sony's continued use of this lens, video processing solution and artifact ridden SXRD panels are really starting to show now that JVC has native 4K and a very refined eshift system. It's just nice to see others finally see how these issues affect the image and agree with me that eshift can actually keep up with SXRD 4K with 99% of all content.

On their own these Sony 4K models look excellent, but when you compare it to what JVC is doing it's hard not to see the flaws and prefer those projectors. I still haven't seen an RS4500, but reading people's comments about how it looked at the meet, it REALLY makes me want to go out and see one in person. :)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: DavidHir on December 11, 2017, 03:23:14 PM
I'm glad most people are coming away from that meet with the same thoughts in that eshift can keep up with Sony's native 4K projectors. As I've alluded to many times (see here (https://discuss.avscience.com/?topic=1369.msg6414#msg6414) about half way down) Sony could be showing more apparent resolution, probably on par with the RS4500, if most of them weren't using a relatively poor lens, had better video processing and didn't have the issue they all have with color information getting lost and artifacts like posterization and banding occurring because of it obfuscating image detail. These reasons alone are the reasons why the 885ES didn't look anywhere near as good as the RS4500. I'm not asking for an Arc-F lens or the lens used in the RS4500, but something worthy of the $25000 asking price. Hell, the lens used in the $4000 JVC RS440 is nicer than the lens in the $25000 885ES. Sony's continued use of this lens, video processing solution and artifact ridden SXRD panels are really starting to show now that JVC has native 4K and a very refined eshift system. It's just nice to see others finally see how these issues affect the image and agree with me that eshift can actually keep up with SXRD 4K with 99% of all content.


For sure.  For $25K, it's inexcusable the 885ES does not have a better lens.  Sony was able to give the 1000ES a better lens for "only" $5K more.  Speaking of the RS440, I am rather impressed with the lens sample on mine and its ability to uniformly resolve 1080p pixels rather well away from the center of the image.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on December 19, 2017, 10:40:18 AM
That's kind of what I meant. Take it out of the service menu. But I suspect the reason they do it is to allow for less than optimal factory set physical convergence. This is a cost saving measure so more units pass QC. Is blue off a half pixel?
 That's fine just fix it in software and hide it in the service menu....Unfortunately this comes at a cost in image artifacts. But what does Sony care as most buyers don't have a critical eye.

I'm just reading up on the new shootout/comparison thread on the other forum. I'm glad to see some kind of properly setup comparison done. It helps me validate my own comparisons and opinions made over the years having these projectors here. I'm glad most people are coming away from that meet with the same thoughts in that eshift can keep up with Sony's native 4K projectors. As I've alluded to many times (see here (https://discuss.avscience.com/?topic=1369.msg6414#msg6414) about half way down) Sony could be showing more apparent resolution, probably on par with the RS4500, if most of them weren't using a relatively poor lens, had better video processing and didn't have the issue they all have with color information getting lost and artifacts like posterization and banding occurring because of it obfuscating image detail. These reasons alone are the reasons why the 885ES didn't look anywhere near as good as the RS4500. I'm not asking for an Arc-F lens or the lens used in the RS4500, but something worthy of the $25000 asking price. Hell, the lens used in the $4000 JVC RS440 is nicer than the lens in the $25000 885ES. Sony's continued use of this lens, video processing solution and artifact ridden SXRD panels are really starting to show now that JVC has native 4K and a very refined eshift system. It's just nice to see others finally see how these issues affect the image and agree with me that eshift can actually keep up with SXRD 4K with 99% of all content.

On their own these Sony 4K models look excellent, but when you compare it to what JVC is doing it's hard not to see the flaws and prefer those projectors. I still haven't seen an RS4500, but reading people's comments about how it looked at the meet, it REALLY makes me want to go out and see one in person. :)

Stop in and see the new showroom. 4500 is hanging in there. Triad Atmos system sounds nice also. :)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on December 19, 2017, 11:45:32 AM

On their own these Sony 4K models look excellent, but when you compare it to what JVC is doing it's hard not to see the flaws and prefer those projectors. I still haven't seen an RS4500, but reading people's comments about how it looked at the meet, it REALLY makes me want to go out and see one in person. :)

You need to see one with the custom gamma curves for HDR. I put on " Deepwater Horizon " last night, just to see if there was much improvement now with those dark murky underwater scenes. It looked so damn good, I got mesmerized and watched the entire movie !  ::)
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: acaxuwbxw on December 16, 2018, 04:48:16 PM
Hello,

We have a 16:9 screen and when playing media like Kong 4K/UHD, it fits perfectly horizontally, but I have the letterboxing (black bands above and below).   Also, when Apple TV shows its screensaver, it fits the entire screen perfectly, but once the media is selected when 2.35:1 content, it goes into letterbox mode.

I fiddled with many settings, including screen position with Zoom and Shift too.  Seems like when I try zoom, the picture gets a little larger vertically while exceeding the horizontal borders, but I can't get it to fill the vertical screen size no matter what I do. 

What am I missing? 

This is a great project, isn't there some way to get it to do a fill/full mode similar to most digital TVs, where it will make the media fill the corners of the screen, even if there is some skewing of the media's original aspect ratio?  Is there a difference between digital zoom vs. lens zoom?  I think that maybe based on my setup with projector on ceiling, I can't solve this with lens zoom and maybe need a digital zoom processor. 

Any help with the right steps/process/methods will be very helpful and appreciated.  I see posts about people trying to fill 2.35:1 screens when playing 16:9 media.  I have the opposite, a 16:9 screen but playing 2.35:1 media and wanting to eliminate the top & bottom black bands (letterboxing).

Some people talk about a Lumagen device to do this, but with this capable projector, I would think I don't need that additional add on either, do I?  I've followed info on using lens memory to create positions, but can't seem to create a custom position which fills the screen vertically once its at the horizontal edges.

This surely can't be as hard as it seems....

Thanks!
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on December 16, 2018, 08:05:40 PM
You will be changing the aspect ratio or cropping the picture. Surely you don't really want to do that, do you ?
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on December 16, 2018, 09:10:10 PM
Hello,

We have a 16:9 screen and when playing media like Kong 4K/UHD, it fits perfectly horizontally, but I have the letterboxing (black bands above and below).   Also, when Apple TV shows its screensaver, it fits the entire screen perfectly, but once the media is selected when 2.35:1 content, it goes into letterbox mode.

I fiddled with many settings, including screen position with Zoom and Shift too.  Seems like when I try zoom, the picture gets a little larger vertically while exceeding the horizontal borders, but I can't get it to fill the vertical screen size no matter what I do. 

What am I missing? 

This is a great project, isn't there some way to get it to do a fill/full mode similar to most digital TVs, where it will make the media fill the corners of the screen, even if there is some skewing of the media's original aspect ratio?  Is there a difference between digital zoom vs. lens zoom?  I think that maybe based on my setup with projector on ceiling, I can't solve this with lens zoom and maybe need a digital zoom processor. 

Any help with the right steps/process/methods will be very helpful and appreciated.  I see posts about people trying to fill 2.35:1 screens when playing 16:9 media.  I have the opposite, a 16:9 screen but playing 2.35:1 media and wanting to eliminate the top & bottom black bands (letterboxing).

Some people talk about a Lumagen device to do this, but with this capable projector, I would think I don't need that additional add on either, do I?  I've followed info on using lens memory to create positions, but can't seem to create a custom position which fills the screen vertically once its at the horizontal edges.

This surely can't be as hard as it seems....

Thanks!

That is how scope content is supposed to look on a 16:9 screen. If you would like to discuss, give us a call.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on December 16, 2018, 10:37:32 PM
75%+ of movie content is a cinemascope aspect ratio. If you're going to mostly be watching movies on your projector I would suggest switching over to a 2.35:1 (or similar aspect ratio) screen. Give AVScience a call. They will explain further and steer you in the right direction on which screen would fit best for you.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSCraig on May 21, 2019, 01:50:20 PM
Great deals on closeout / demo / b stock Sony VW285es 4K projectors !! Call for info. 
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: AVSMike on May 24, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Also the 285 B-stocks come with a 3 year warranty at a very attractive price. :)  Call us for details.
Title: Re: Sony VPL-VW285ES/385ES Thread
Post by: Dylan Seeger on May 29, 2019, 12:48:50 PM
Wow, I just saw how cheap the 285ES is from AVScience. Guys, for the price, you won't find a better image. I've seen pretty much all of the projectors discussed here and feel comfortable making that claim. 
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