AVS Discussions
General => Home Theater Misc. => Topic started by: Chris_Stephens on May 21, 2021, 11:49:01 PM
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So... Correct me if I am wrong.. This is my understanding right now with what is wrong with HDR..
HDR material is rendered with a target luminosity ? Its not a object model where you can render the material on the fly into a luminosity space of the display device. The metadata in HDR10+ and Dolby Vision lack the power to truly solve the issue. That would require way too much CPU power. So a target is picked and the material is rendered. The target many people seem to be using is for a display that physics has yet to enable. This allows the material to be rendered correctly at some point in the future when displays have reached the ability to do supernova to 0.0001fl range.. So the material we see today is rendered in a way when they create the file that is for a device no one has,,, and when displayed on current displays looks awful because it ends up not having any dynamic range on the actual imager chip in use. Stretching it out to cover the actual display range is almost not possible and results in all sorts of issues. While its possible to make it look "OK", sorta,, its not making full use of the bit depth of the imager chip and not using the full dynamic range of the display device UNLESS its rendered with a luminosity target that is close to the display...
Do I have that right ?
There is no way to fix this or adjust out a incorrect rendering..
Further.. Dolby Vision also seems to use this same general model and more metadat that wont resolve the issue.
The only way this will work correctly is a new standard that renders the video into the dynamic range of the display device on the fly. That seems way to mathematically intense to be implemented any time soon.. Sorta Atmos for video..
It IS possible to render into different luminosity spaces and offer these up by a choice. Like the S&M disc does. So its possible for a AppleTV for example to know what your choice of luminosity target is and then pick the file to play based on this. Its also possible the consumer could pick it.. This would be a good temp solution.. Of course source material people would need to render a number of files, grade each one, store and offer all these taking up like 7 times more space. So the business end of this might be the real problem.
HDR is abhorrent.
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Well, HDR is on the edge of technology now, and because displays aren't capable of displaying the full Dynamic Range HDR was intended to capture and show, there are challenges. And sometimes the result can be poor. Add to that the variation in the original mastering of the HDR content at the studio level, and things can get messy.
Speaking to the Projector situation, where the challenges are perhaps the greatest, given that the Nit limitation is far worse than with conventional TV's, there are very workable solutions.
JVC's projectors have built-in Dynamic Tone Mapping, where the intent is to bring out about what you're discussing. And the latest firmware allows you to input your screen size and gain, further enabling the Projector to 'tailor' its Tone Mapping to match what your theater can do.
And taking it to the next level, there are external Video Processors, the madVR Envy and Lumagen Radiance Pro being the prime candidates here. I have the Envy, and it addresses all of the problems you're talking about. You tell it how many Nits you have on-screen, and it performs frame-by-frame Dynamic Tone Mapping to optimize how the image looks on your screen.
I have a JVC, and it does an excellent job. By no means 'abhorrent'. Quite good. The Envy takes it up a significant notch, such that I am thrilled with what I'm seeing, regardless of how the original HDR content was mastered.
The Envy also has options for Highlight Recovery, Shadow Recovery and Contrast Recovery, which enable you to tweak the basic Tone Mapping even further. The results are stunning.
So the situation has changed significantly from when I got my first JVC, the RS400, 5 or so years ago, where it used the dreaded "Gamma D" for HDR. That was pretty awful. But things have improved dramatically since then.
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So... Correct me if I am wrong.. This is my understanding right now with what is wrong with HDR..
HDR material is rendered with a target luminosity ? Its not a object model where you can render the material on the fly into a luminosity space of the display device. The metadata in HDR10+ and Dolby Vision lack the power to truly solve the issue. That would require way too much CPU power. So a target is picked and the material is rendered. The target many people seem to be using is for a display that physics has yet to enable. This allows the material to be rendered correctly at some point in the future when displays have reached the ability to do supernova to 0.0001fl range.. So the material we see today is rendered in a way when they create the file that is for a device no one has,,, and when displayed on current displays looks awful because it ends up not having any dynamic range on the actual imager chip in use. Stretching it out to cover the actual display range is almost not possible and results in all sorts of issues. While its possible to make it look "OK", sorta,, its not making full use of the bit depth of the imager chip and not using the full dynamic range of the display device UNLESS its rendered with a luminosity target that is close to the display...
Do I have that right ?
There is no way to fix this or adjust out a incorrect rendering..
Further.. Dolby Vision also seems to use this same general model and more metadat that wont resolve the issue.
The only way this will work correctly is a new standard that renders the video into the dynamic range of the display device on the fly. That seems way to mathematically intense to be implemented any time soon.. Sorta Atmos for video..
It IS possible to render into different luminosity spaces and offer these up by a choice. Like the S&M disc does. So its possible for a AppleTV for example to know what your choice of luminosity target is and then pick the file to play based on this. Its also possible the consumer could pick it.. This would be a good temp solution.. Of course source material people would need to render a number of files, grade each one, store and offer all these taking up like 7 times more space. So the business end of this might be the real problem.
HDR is abhorrent.
It was pretty bad a few years ago. Like DLCPhoto said, there are good solutions now. You don't say what your 4K UHD display is though.
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HDR can be a complete fail for sure if your display doesn't play well with it for whatever reason, be it a projector that is lumens challenged and doesn't have anything in the chain to help. (I.e. Panasonic UHD player with their tone mapping type feature, outboard processor, or in the display itself.) I've had to create a setting in my LG OLED TV for shows that get dimmer where the HDR in base settings sometimes yields a picture that is completely dark. Recently, Shadow & Bone on Netflix in the final episode had one of the most difficult scenes I've encountered with a battle happening in a magically darkened environment. But that's also been the case for non HDR scenes, famously the big nighttime battle episode in the 3rd ep of the last season of Game of Thrones where so many people complained that they couldn't see very much of the entire episode. It wasn't in HDR but still caused major problems.
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I am curretly playing with a Sony VPL-GTZ380, but I have the same experience with Sony OLED, LG, and a JVC projector to name a few. In fact EVERY display I have encountered looks worse in every set of calibrations.
As far as adding more math ( Lumingen ) to fix HDR... Hmmm... Thats like trying to fix DirecTV, SURE you can make it look better, but the issue still exists. Plus you get to fool with settings for each bit of source material. ALso you then add more processing to the HDMI signal which mathematically MUST degrade everything that goes thru it. That is just a mathematical reality. The question is does the harm outweigh the good. The math to remap this is lossy Also your starting from less bits which is why once mastered the damage is done. The picture from EVERY other source looks great, 4K SDR is stunning.. Its ONLY HDR that look like ****.. I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO FIX IT.. And even then 4K SDR still beats the result of more processing.
My view of HDR being Abhorrent is about the standard. The result of HDR when everything is right, the material was aquired in HDR and the moon is full with jupiter aligned with mars,, like on the Spears & Munsil UHD demo material is wonderful. What has me annoyed is this Consumer Technology Association created standard just to sell product, HDR.. Its a terrible "standard" driven to market in order to sell more devices while not properly vetting a standard and with a deceptive certification regime.
I am SMPTE/SID/SPIE so I do understand the standards process and HDR/10/+ along with DV are horrid, misleading and serve one function - for people to buy new gear.
With a bitstream compressed down to 20Mbps,,, a 1080P24 4:2:0 will look better then a 4K60 4:4:4 RGB HDR/DV because you end up crushing even more data down a fixed pipe. While it is technically 4K in its pixels, your only getting maybe 1K after compression and less with moving objects. Bit depth can also get crushed. 4K only looks good if nothing moves. Things in fast motion have no resolution because of compression. A 1080 has way more resolution with things in motion because it does not have the compression that 4K would with the same bitstream cap. We don't want to push MORE data down a fixed pipe. I sure don't want material that was not acquired in HDR rendering into HDR 4K and then stuffed down a pipe. All this does is degrade the material. People are adding HDR to material that was not aquired in it and just destroying the material because of the later compression.
HDR is a plague. Its spread has gone unchecked.
HDR is the Emperors New Clothes.
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I suspect the JVC you had was one of the earlier E-shift models? Because HDR on the current JVC's looks quite good. I also assume you have not seem a current version of Lumagen DTM. What size and gain screen are you using? That could be a factor on why you did not think HDR was very good on a JVC.
A GTZ380 does not do DTM, but it is not bad with HDR. The GTZ380 is not any better with HDR than any of the other Sony projectors, it is just a whole lot brighter.
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I am curretly playing with a Sony VPL-GTZ380, but I have the same experience with Sony OLED, LG, and a JVC projector to name a few. In fact EVERY display I have encountered looks worse in every set of calibrations.
As far as adding more math ( Lumingen ) to fix HDR... Hmmm... Thats like trying to fix DirecTV, SURE you can make it look better, but the issue still exists. Plus you get to fool with settings for each bit of source material. ALso you then add more processing to the HDMI signal which mathematically MUST degrade everything that goes thru it. That is just a mathematical reality. The question is does the harm outweigh the good. The math to remap this is lossy Also your starting from less bits which is why once mastered the damage is done. The picture from EVERY other source looks great, 4K SDR is stunning.. Its ONLY HDR that look like ****.. I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO FIX IT.. And even then 4K SDR still beats the result of more processing.
My view of HDR being Abhorrent is about the standard. The result of HDR when everything is right, the material was aquired in HDR and the moon is full with jupiter aligned with mars,, like on the Spears & Munsil UHD demo material is wonderful. What has me annoyed is this Consumer Technology Association created standard just to sell product, HDR.. Its a terrible "standard" driven to market in order to sell more devices while not properly vetting a standard and with a deceptive certification regime.
I am SMPTE/SID/SPIE so I do understand the standards process and HDR/10/+ along with DV are horrid, misleading and serve one function - for people to buy new gear.
With a bitstream compressed down to 20Mbps,,, a 1080P24 4:2:0 will look better then a 4K60 4:4:4 RGB HDR/DV because you end up crushing even more data down a fixed pipe. While it is technically 4K in its pixels, your only getting maybe 1K after compression and less with moving objects. Bit depth can also get crushed. 4K only looks good if nothing moves. Things in fast motion have no resolution because of compression. A 1080 has way more resolution with things in motion because it does not have the compression that 4K would with the same bitstream cap. We don't want to push MORE data down a fixed pipe. I sure don't want material that was not acquired in HDR rendering into HDR 4K and then stuffed down a pipe. All this does is degrade the material. People are adding HDR to material that was not aquired in it and just destroying the material because of the later compression.
HDR is a plague. Its spread has gone unchecked.
HDR is the Emperors New Clothes.
Actually, everything going through the Lumagen looks better on my 4K projector. That includes AT & T U Verse 1080p sources ( the worst source I have ), Blu-rays and 4K Blu-rays. No fiddling required - I haven't changed any settings in a year. Watched both Deadpool 1 & 2 on 4K UHD Blu-ray tonight, and generally watch 3 - 4 movies a week. HDR looks great.
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I suspect the JVC you had was one of the earlier E-shift models? Because HDR on the current JVC's looks quite good. I also assume you have not seem a current version of Lumagen DTM. What size and gain screen are you using? That could be a factor on why you did not think HDR was very good on a JVC.
A GTZ380 does not do DTM, but it is not bad with HDR. The GTZ380 is not any better with HDR than any of the other Sony projectors, it is just a whole lot brighter.
HDR from the S&M demo material is jaw dropping on the 380. The HDR from pretty much everything is looks like ****.
I have respect for a Lumagen, but, its more math. Its impossible mathematically to not degrade the material to some measurableabe degree. I have played with the Lumagen devices over the years. My AB is with it physically in line and bypassed by skipping it and plugging in directly to the source. This AB has always resulted that a direct connection is always the better picture on material that is well mastered. Of course my Oppo has a big list of mods and I use Wire World Platinum Eclipse cables all short length.
It has been 2 years since I dropped in a Lumagen. I will check with Jim and do a bit of AB once again. Plus Jim is a extert on what is wrong with HDR, so I will start that conversation back where I left off with him.
MY POINT is that I should not have to FIX HDR. Its a terrible standard and most of it is broken. Setting a AppleTV to HDR is a big mistake as then it rrenders all sorts of stuff into HDR making everything look bad.
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Hdr isn’t broken. Displays aren’t capable (yet) of properly displaying the bits for it to be a benefit. That is not without a fix. The lumagen tone maps to the available nits. And the results are outstanding.
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Actually, everything going through the Lumagen looks better on my 4K projector. That includes AT & T U Verse 1080p sources ( the worst source I have ), Blu-rays and 4K Blu-rays. No fiddling required - I haven't changed any settings in a year. Watched both Deadpool 1 & 2 on 4K UHD Blu-ray tonight, and generally watch 3 - 4 movies a week. HDR looks great.
Are you doing a direct AB bypassing the Lumagen by unhooking the HDMI and plugging directly into the source and looking a 4K SDR vs HDR... I have a Oppo with a linear power supply, disc stabilizer and femto clock mods plus other lesser mods. I use Wireworld Platinum Eclipse cables all short. 3M direct to projector. No processor in the path. Audio is pulled from the 2nd HDMI out. The screen is a Screen Research ClearPix Ultimate
The room has been reviewed. https://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/paradise_valley_system.htm
Recent vid showing current equip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJAsO6E2B9w
The room from 6 years ago and a lot of gear changed, but it has a better view of the room. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnvDHVylTQY
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Hdr isn’t broken. Displays aren’t capable (yet) of properly displaying the bits for it to be a benefit. That is not without a fix. The lumagen tone maps to the available nits. And the results are outstanding.
So why do I need a Lumagen to remap ? The std is broken.. The remap has a mathematical cost you MUST pay.
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So why do I need a Lumagen to remap ? The std is broken.. The remap has a mathematical cost you MUST pay.
Because your DISPLAY isn’t capable
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HDR from the S&M demo material is jaw dropping on the 380. The HDR from pretty much everything is looks like ****.
I have respect for a Lumagen, but, its more math. Its impossible mathematically to not degrade the material to some measurableabe degree. I have played with the Lumagen devices over the years. My AB is with it physically in line and bypassed by skipping it and plugging in directly to the source. This AB has always resulted that a direct connection is always the better picture on material that is well mastered. Of course my Oppo has a big list of mods and I use Wire World Platinum Eclipse cables all short length.
It has been 2 years since I dropped in a Lumagen. I will check with Jim and do a bit of AB once again. Plus Jim is a extert on what is wrong with HDR, so I will start that conversation back where I left off with him.
MY POINT is that I should not have to FIX HDR. Its a terrible standard and most of it is broken. Setting a AppleTV to HDR is a big mistake as then it rrenders all sorts of stuff into HDR making everything look bad.
If it has been two years since you played with a Lumagen, then you have no idea what a Lumagen can do with HDR. But anybody that has used a Lumagen within the last year will tell you the HDR is very good with a Lumagen. A Lumagen is pretty much set and forget. Oppo's HDR tone mapping is not in the same universe as Lumagen.
Setting an Apple TV to HDR is improper setup for Apple TV. You set it to SDR and match source. Then when it plays an HDR source, it sends HDR and when it plays an SDR source, it sends SDR.
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Are you doing a direct AB bypassing the Lumagen by unhooking the HDMI and plugging directly into the source and looking a 4K SDR vs HDR... I have a Oppo with a linear power supply, disc stabilizer and femto clock mods plus other lesser mods. I use Wireworld Platinum Eclipse cables all short. 3M direct to projector. No processor in the path. Audio is pulled from the 2nd HDMI out. The screen is a Screen Research ClearPix Ultimate
The room has been reviewed. https://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/paradise_valley_system.htm
Recent vid showing current equip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJAsO6E2B9w
The room from 6 years ago and a lot of gear changed, but it has a better view of the room. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnvDHVylTQY
I am sorry, but you have no clue, when it comes to HDR. Your Apple TV was not set up correctly and Lumagen by far does a much better job with HDR than your GTZ380 on its own. Yes, i have compared directly. As far as HDR tone mapping goes, the JVC LCOS projectors will do a better job with tone mapping of HDR than the GTZ380. The JVC's just can't light up a large screen like the GTZ380 can.
Also if you get another Lumagen, and you should, make sure none of your HDMI cables are shorter than 6'. A short cable can cause problems also. You can confirm that with Jim Peterson.
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I don't want to be argumentative here, but I just watched the 4k/HDR Blu-ray of Annihilation, with a JVC NX7, Panamorph DCR Lens, madVR Envy, on a 160" diagonal scope screen.
It was a completely mesmerizing visual experience. The movie was awesome, and the graphics during the credits at the end were 'out of this world'. If this is an example of HDR being 'broken', then I guess my brain must be broken as well.
As the others have been saying, until you have seen HDR done 'right', you haven't seen what HDR can look like in your Theater.
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Because your DISPLAY isn’t capable
My proj does great with the S&M calibration disc. So the 10 bit depth was properly applied to my display luminosity space. So the standard failed because it can't do this.
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I don't want to be argumentative here, but I just watched the 4k/HDR Blu-ray of Annihilation, with a JVC NX7, Panamorph DCR Lens, madVR Envy, on a 160" diagonal scope screen.
It was a completely mesmerizing visual experience. The movie was awesome, and the graphics during the credits at the end were 'out of this world'. If this is an example of HDR being 'broken', then I guess my brain must be broken as well.
As the others have been saying, until you have seen HDR done 'right', you haven't seen what HDR can look like in your Theater.
Watched Deadpool 1 and 2 on 4k UHD Blu-ray with a friend - HDR looked excellent!
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If it has been two years since you played with a Lumagen, then you have no idea what a Lumagen can do with HDR. But anybody that has used a Lumagen within the last year will tell you the HDR is very good with a Lumagen. A Lumagen is pretty much set and forget. Oppo's HDR tone mapping is not in the same universe as Lumagen.
Setting an Apple TV to HDR is improper setup for Apple TV. You set it to SDR and match source. Then when it plays an HDR source, it sends HDR and when it plays an SDR source, it sends SDR.
I understand the math involved. While there is a TON of math that can play with the bits in ways that are very pleasant to the visual system, its no substitute to a accurate reproduction of the original bits. I am not using the Oppo to remap. WHy would I do that ? I have found the Sony has some great math, so the Oppo is set to source direct. I agree that a Lumagen migt be fun to do that. BUT. You can't fully defeat the math in the projector, so if you use a external scaler you end up with cascading processing which has its own issues. Also the Oppo has a pretty good physical layer HDMI circuit and that combined with a crazy stable clock, linear power supply and caps in just the right spots on the HDMI output chip and careful analog work on the HDMI circuit the output of the Oppo is really great. Putting in a Lumagen will add a HDMI rcvr chip, decoding, math, encoding, tx chip. That is a lot right there. While I respect the Lumagen its not powered by a linear supply and a low phase noise clock for the HDMI output. The physical layer of HDMI is treacherous and its almost analog in nature. But that is another conversation. Adding a device in-line WILL degrade the picture.
You DEAD ON with the AppleTV settings. BUT again if the HDR standard including proper certification then a device would work with the settings your describing. There is a issue with matching source on the AppleTV. I have not tried it on the new one from last week, but, generally true of all hardware. Switching formats on the fly causes a number of weirdnesses. Loss of lock, recovery and in the case of AppleTV it could cause the AppleTV to get confuzed.
A Lumagen and work-a-rounds like source direct and setting Apple to SDR just proves my point. The HDR standard is abhorrent.
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I don't want to be argumentative here, but I just watched the 4k/HDR Blu-ray of Annihilation, with a JVC NX7, Panamorph DCR Lens, madVR Envy, on a 160" diagonal scope screen.
It was a completely mesmerizing visual experience. The movie was awesome, and the graphics during the credits at the end were 'out of this world'. If this is an example of HDR being 'broken', then I guess my brain must be broken as well.
As the others have been saying, until you have seen HDR done 'right', you haven't seen what HDR can look like in your Theater.
I have seen HDR done right. Its the most incredible picture I have ever seen.. The only place I have seen it look this good is Spears & Munsil UHD calibration disc. They do HDR correctly by rendering into the correct luminosity that you pick from the menu.
My point is that the HDR standard is so broken you need a Lumgen to fix it on most material. Some material is almost OK, but all of it has weird issues.
The way to do HDR correctly is to do it like S&M did, render more then one target each with a luminosity range for various normally encountered devices. I admit tho, I am not sure if the S&M disc is playing different files or sending metadata or both. If you have not watched the S&M Demo material then you dont know what HDR should look like.
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Also.. I am pissed over this HDR mess. So i am argumentative. Please excuse my being grouchy. Im just sick of cramming 4K60 4:4:4 10 bit RGB which is 15Gbps raw down a 30 Mbps streaming pipe with a 500 TIMES compression and a std like HDR which is trying to cram a 15 bit space into 10 and is just created to sell devices and after years is still broken with people needing to buy new gear to get HDR10+/DV..
Its the emperors new clothes.
So, hahahaha,,, just please excuse me,, im grumpy...
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Buy this... Watch the demo material after choosing your luminosity and then judge your other HDR material..
Plus everybody should own this anyway.
https://www.amazon.com/Spears-Munsil-Benchmark-Blu-ray-Disc/dp/B07Q2KBDKV/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=spears+and+munsil&qid=1621831799&sr=8-1
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I have seen HDR done right. Its the most incredible picture I have ever seen.. The only place I have seen it look this good is Spears & Munsil UHD calibration disc. They do HDR correctly by rendering into the correct luminosity that you pick from the menu.
My point is that the HDR standard is so broken you need a Lumgen to fix it on most material. Some material is almost OK, but all of it has weird issues.
The way to do HDR correctly is to do it like S&M did, render more then one target each with a luminosity range for various normally encountered devices. I admit tho, I am not sure if the S&M disc is playing different files or sending metadata or both. If you have not watched the S&M Demo material then you dont know what HDR should look like.
I highlighted part of your statement in Bold for emphasis. I don't disagree, and in fact I'd take it one step further: there is no HDR standard. Mastering can be done to 1,000 nits to 10,000 nits, and grading can vary substantially from one movie to another.
I can't speak to the Lumagen, since I don't own one, but I'm sure it has a similar approach to what the Envy uses. With the Envy, you tell it how many Nits you have available, and it then does a frame-by-frame analysis, Dynamically Tone Mapping for your particular theater and Nits in an optimal fashion. And it does provide some options to further tweak this process to account for subtleties in your theater, preference, etc.
As long as the content has a wider Dynamic Range than what is available on the Display, then Tone Mapping will need to be done to render it. This can be done well, this can be done poorly. Sony, from what I've read, does it relatively poorly, and requires a lot of manual tweaking. JVC's most recent generation of DTM does a pretty good job. But it can be come up short with some content.
It is perhaps unfortunate that an Envy or Lumagen is needed to do DTM "right" but that's just the nature of the beast. Doing it right requires more computational power than is typically available in a Projector, Player, etc. But with one of these, it's a completely different world for HDR.
That's a big reason why I got the Envy - I no longer have to worry about how a particular movie was mastered. I don't have to manually tweak settings. The Envy handles it all, and everything looks awesome. I just sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.
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^^ exactly an outboard dedicated VP was always the preferred meathod, and still is! nothing is broken...just nothing is set to utilize the format properly. the S&M disc cannot be used in comparison. its not real world content.
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Also.. I am pissed over this HDR mess. So i am argumentative. Please excuse my being grouchy. Im just sick of cramming 4K60 4:4:4 10 bit RGB which is 15Gbps raw down a 30 Mbps streaming pipe with a 500 TIMES compression and a std like HDR which is trying to cram a 15 bit space into 10 and is just created to sell devices and after years is still broken with people needing to buy new gear to get HDR10+/DV..
Its the emperors new clothes.
So, hahahaha,,, just please excuse me,, im grumpy...
I was a bit miffed regarding the poor implementation of HDR. So I get what you are saying. But many of us have found solutions that are more than adequate. So there are solutions.
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(https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?action=profile;u=7325)"Chris Stephens" nice to see you, been years hope you're doing well.
I have always had complaints about consumer content, they treat us like "Joe 6pack" thinking they don't have to go out of their way to deliver quality content thinking it looks good enough on a 50" display.
The best content for consumers is UHD HDR 4k blue ray yet its all over the map. Of the few hundred titles available there are only 4 or 5 discs that come close to reference the rest have gamma, color saturation, and hue issues and they are still applying NR and EE at times on some titles and scenes, let alone the watered-down HDR.
If there is a standard it is not enforced, each studio does as they please on a per titles basis. Unlike the DCP for commercial cinemas where the standard is strictly followed, you can watch 10 titles and never have to make any correction or adjustment to the projector. It almost makes no sense to purchase a high-end display when the content is crap. With that said, I am in sales, who wants to buy something high end:)
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I understand the math involved. While there is a TON of math that can play with the bits in ways that are very pleasant to the visual system, its no substitute to a accurate reproduction of the original bits. I am not using the Oppo to remap. WHy would I do that ? I have found the Sony has some great math, so the Oppo is set to source direct. I agree that a Lumagen migt be fun to do that. BUT. You can't fully defeat the math in the projector, so if you use a external scaler you end up with cascading processing which has its own issues. Also the Oppo has a pretty good physical layer HDMI circuit and that combined with a crazy stable clock, linear power supply and caps in just the right spots on the HDMI output chip and careful analog work on the HDMI circuit the output of the Oppo is really great. Putting in a Lumagen will add a HDMI rcvr chip, decoding, math, encoding, tx chip. That is a lot right there. While I respect the Lumagen its not powered by a linear supply and a low phase noise clock for the HDMI output. The physical layer of HDMI is treacherous and its almost analog in nature. But that is another conversation. Adding a device in-line WILL degrade the picture.
You DEAD ON with the AppleTV settings. BUT again if the HDR standard including proper certification then a device would work with the settings your describing. There is a issue with matching source on the AppleTV. I have not tried it on the new one from last week, but, generally true of all hardware. Switching formats on the fly causes a number of weirdnesses. Loss of lock, recovery and in the case of AppleTV it could cause the AppleTV to get confuzed.
A Lumagen and work-a-rounds like source direct and setting Apple to SDR just proves my point. The HDR standard is abhorrent.
You are still lost on all of this. The Lumagen if set up correctly, is not cascading the processing (double tone mapping). The HDR signal is sent to the Lumagen and the Lumagen does the HDR processing. The projector sees it as SDR, so it does not apply any HDR tone mapping. After all the money you have spent on your projector, spend a little more and get the Lumagen and someone like Kris Deering to set it up properly. Then you will see what all of us are talking about. And to head off something that many people say: no the Lumagen is not converting HDR to SDR. It is only mapping the content to the projectors ability.
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I have seen HDR done right. Its the most incredible picture I have ever seen.. The only place I have seen it look this good is Spears & Munsil UHD calibration disc. They do HDR correctly by rendering into the correct luminosity that you pick from the menu.
My point is that the HDR standard is so broken you need a Lumgen to fix it on most material. Some material is almost OK, but all of it has weird issues.
The way to do HDR correctly is to do it like S&M did, render more then one target each with a luminosity range for various normally encountered devices. I admit tho, I am not sure if the S&M disc is playing different files or sending metadata or both. If you have not watched the S&M Demo material then you dont know what HDR should look like.
To do a good job with HDR on a projector, you need dynamic tone mapping. Currently there are three ways to get dynamic tone mapping for all content. One is Lumagen. Two is MadVR Envy and three is to buy a JVC RS1000/RS2000 or RS3000. Since you have a good projector, you just need to get the Lumagen or MadVR Envy.
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Buy this... Watch the demo material after choosing your luminosity and then judge your other HDR material..
Plus everybody should own this anyway.
https://www.amazon.com/Spears-Munsil-Benchmark-Blu-ray-Disc/dp/B07Q2KBDKV/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=spears+and+munsil&qid=1621831799&sr=8-1
Have seen that already on my RS3000 with Lumagen. Probably everybody in this thread has seen it or own it.
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^^ exactly an outboard dedicated VP was always the preferred meathod, and still is! nothing is broken...just nothing is set to utilize the format properly. the S&M disc cannot be used in comparison. its not real world content.
How is it not real world content ? Oh, you mean from real consumer devices from real sources like AppleTV. True... BUT it does show VERY clearly what HDR can look like when its all done correctly. So it IS worth looking at just to know what 100 Mbps HDR *should* look like.
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I was a bit miffed regarding the poor implementation of HDR. So I get what you are saying. But many of us have found solutions that are more than adequate. So there are solutions.
The solutions require some fairly big bucks ( the best Lumagen is $10k ) AND involve some sacrfices. For example, the correct way to setup a AppleTV 4k HDR is to set it for 4K SDR and then enable source direct for DR and frame rate. This is of course best, but, each time to change from menu to material there will be a resyncing which on most displays takes some seconds to land. This is more annoying then it sounds. The AppleTV needs to be set like this so a Lumagen, or display device can get the best source.
The comment above is correct.. There is no HDR standard and people just crank out many different flavors based on what a DP graded the material on. This of course never matches the display.
There are ways to make it look better. But. Ultimately its a failed standard.
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(https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?action=profile;u=7325)"Chris Stephens" nice to see you, been years hope you're doing well.
I have always had complaints about consumer content, they treat us like "Joe 6pack" thinking they don't have to go out of their way to deliver quality content thinking it looks good enough on a 50" display.
The best content for consumers is UHD HDR 4k blue ray yet its all over the map. Of the few hundred titles available there are only 4 or 5 discs that come close to reference the rest have gamma, color saturation, and hue issues and they are still applying NR and EE at times on some titles and scenes, let alone the watered-down HDR.
If there is a standard it is not enforced, each studio does as they please on a per titles basis. Unlike the DCP for commercial cinemas where the standard is strictly followed, you can watch 10 titles and never have to make any correction or adjustment to the projector. It almost makes no sense to purchase a high-end display when the content is crap. With that said, I am in sales, who wants to buy something high end:)
OMG!!!!!!! ALAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHATS UP !!!!! Wow we should talk on the phone...
THATS what i am talking about !!!.... But hey, these displays and processors look AWESOME on 4K SDR and even HD material ! So people have a DAMN GOOD REASON to buy high end video gear. Just kinda ignore HDR as its a huge can of worms and never looks right.. Well.. That S&M demo material is worth looking at as its the best video i have ever seen, and Alan you and I go way back..
WOWEE... Alan !.. I will PM my number. We should talk just to catch up. I have done some fun rooms..
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You are still lost on all of this. The Lumagen if set up correctly, is not cascading the processing (double tone mapping). The HDR signal is sent to the Lumagen and the Lumagen does the HDR processing. The projector sees it as SDR, so it does not apply any HDR tone mapping. After all the money you have spent on your projector, spend a little more and get the Lumagen and someone like Kris Deering to set it up properly. Then you will see what all of us are talking about. And to head off something that many people say: no the Lumagen is not converting HDR to SDR. It is only mapping the content to the projectors ability.
Hmmmm.... I did have a fun talk today with someone who knows what is going on. By cascading the processing I count processing as ANY device that applies math to the bits. IE bits out do not match bits in. If a processor does any math on a video signal some issues occur. Its why processors work at 12 bit, There is professional gear for color grading that works at 32 bits, so the impact of some of the math is not too harmful to the picture. However even at 12 bit processing some issues occur. There is no way around this. Ideally the frames come off the source untouched. Then a single really good set of math occurs that has all the elements to be done to it. Scaling, remapping, enhancement, etc. Then the output is delievered bit perfect to as close to the imager chip as possible without any extra math. Ideally the display would not have any controls for picture or gamma or color space. The processor does all the math in one set of processing. So the ideal would be to feed the imager chips directly.
So putting a VP in adds a whole set of math. This is not ideal in a perfect world. However a VP can correct issues and so there is a trade off. If the display has issues that are real world and/or the source material or device suck then a VP makes sense... AND lets face it, the consumer world has tons of crap out there. So a VP does make sense.. But..
The ideal solution is for a projector to have the good math. The math can then be tuned to exactly the right imager chip and a output from the math is designed for the exact device. Of course this depends on how well the math is done and for most display devices its not ideal.
I have not played with the JVC. I hear it has some pretty good math.. This new Sony tho, when setup correctly, can be stunningly good on good material. So does a VP makes sense ? Hmmmm... I would need to do a direct blind AB and physically bypass the VP. I would need to look at various sources, good and bad.. i think on some material, from a heavy modded Oppo I would not need the processor and it might look better without. On HDR, OK, EVERYTHING helps.
While Jim's Lumagen 5348 has a stunning list of amazing math, it also has linear voltage regulators and attention to analog noise in what can only be described as the most esoteric high end out there on the physical layer. I am CERTAIN it can improve HDR. That was never in doubt. Jim knows what he is doing and like me treats HDMI as a analog format that conveys digital data. As good as is it, I am not sure its ALWAYS best to have it inline with this projector. Jim would disagree with me for sure ! hehehe.. I gotta blind AB it before i believe it.
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One thing i have to say... I made a mistake.. I thought this was the AVS forum.. I NOW realize this is the AVScience discussion space.. i am sorry for slamming things in your sales spaces.. My mistake..
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How is it not real world content ? Oh, you mean from real consumer devices from real sources like AppleTV. True... BUT it does show VERY clearly what HDR can look like when its all done correctly. So it IS worth looking at just to know what 100 Mbps HDR *should* look like.
Not really. The ATMOS sound demos are overcooked non real world atmos mixes. They do not represent what a movie would be like with atmos. Same applies here
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One thing i have to say... I made a mistake.. I thought this was the AVS forum.. I NOW realize this is the AVScience discussion space.. i am sorry for slamming things in your sales spaces.. My mistake..
Huh?!? There is no pushing product here at ALL.
you are just being VERY stubborn and not listening to those who know what they are talking about. Why ask the question if you don’t want to hear the answer (since you don’t agree with it)
head scratcher for sure
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Hmmmm.... I did have a fun talk today with someone who knows what is going on. By cascading the processing I count processing as ANY device that applies math to the bits. IE bits out do not match bits in. If a processor does any math on a video signal some issues occur. Its why processors work at 12 bit, There is professional gear for color grading that works at 32 bits, so the impact of some of the math is not too harmful to the picture. However even at 12 bit processing some issues occur. There is no way around this. Ideally the frames come off the source untouched. Then a single really good set of math occurs that has all the elements to be done to it. Scaling, remapping, enhancement, etc. Then the output is delievered bit perfect to as close to the imager chip as possible without any extra math. Ideally the display would not have any controls for picture or gamma or color space. The processor does all the math in one set of processing. So the ideal would be to feed the imager chips directly.
So putting a VP in adds a whole set of math. This is not ideal in a perfect world. However a VP can correct issues and so there is a trade off. If the display has issues that are real world and/or the source material or device suck then a VP makes sense... AND lets face it, the consumer world has tons of crap out there. So a VP does make sense.. But..
The ideal solution is for a projector to have the good math. The math can then be tuned to exactly the right imager chip and a output from the math is designed for the exact device. Of course this depends on how well the math is done and for most display devices its not ideal.
I have not played with the JVC. I hear it has some pretty good math.. This new Sony tho, when setup correctly, can be stunningly good on good material. So does a VP makes sense ? Hmmmm... I would need to do a direct blind AB and physically bypass the VP. I would need to look at various sources, good and bad.. i think on some material, from a heavy modded Oppo I would not need the processor and it might look better without. On HDR, OK, EVERYTHING helps.
While Jim's Lumagen 5348 has a stunning list of amazing math, it also has linear voltage regulators and attention to analog noise in what can only be described as the most esoteric high end out there on the physical layer. I am CERTAIN it can improve HDR. That was never in doubt. Jim knows what he is doing and like me treats HDMI as a analog format that conveys digital data. As good as is it, I am not sure its ALWAYS best to have it inline with this projector. Jim would disagree with me for sure ! hehehe.. I gotta blind AB it before i believe it.
The JVC projectors do a good job with HDR. Not quite as good as a Lumagen. The reason to buy the top Lumagen is not for video performance, because video on the entry 4242 will be the same. You buy the top of the line Lumagen for audio improvements (reduced jitter) and for more inputs and outputs.
Your GTZ380 does not have dynamic tone mapping, but it can do a good job with HDR, but it requires some interaction on your part title by title. Add a Lumagen and you will get better HDR and not have to adjust title by title. As much as you have spent on the projector, Lumagen cost is not that big.
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One thing i have to say... I made a mistake.. I thought this was the AVS forum.. I NOW realize this is the AVScience discussion space.. i am sorry for slamming things in your sales spaces.. My mistake..
You say you know Jim Peterson. Talk to him and see what he has to say about what a Lumagen will do for you with HDR. Has anybody contacted you personally to push a product? I doubt it. We just mentioned the products that will solve your problem, (complaint) regarding HDR. Heck one of the recommended products that would solve your problem is not even sold by us.