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Evolution of CRT

alangouger

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Re: Evolution of CRT
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2016, 08:16:25 PM »
What is the status of CRT these days? I always felt nothing beat the image of CRT they look like an oil painting on the screen. As good as Digital is it still does not compare to a good CRT.
How wide of a screen are you guys doing these days?
Where do you get your support and parts?
Is there still a good source for projectors and parts?
Are further advancements still being made?

Good to see the CRT club keeping the sport alive.

Thank you!
 

Re: Evolution of CRT
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2016, 12:40:54 PM »
For me its all alive, but ill guess with UHD comming up more and more will skip CRT,  as it looks to me the HD blu ray format is like perfect for the best CRT ( Marquee :-*)
I have collected close to 30 Marquee projectors, think ill be able to build close to 20 pcs with mint or new tubes.. so my personal sparepart depo is douing well.
the last few years the goverment has sold like around 500 Marquee projectors, lots of them were NIB NOS ones, so with the few CRT users left, and the huge amount of surplus projectors dumped out from simulator, planetarium instalations, i doubt we will be able to deplete Marquee parts.
New tubes are still produced, so its just a question of paying the price.

New mods are still under construction, after a lot of years with Mike Parker as the only one modding the Marquee videochain with mixed results, there is now more players in that game as well. So in near future there is now hope of buying stable well working mods, that can deliver in a decent timeframe.

The screen size is normaly 90-110" depending of personal preferences, a 90" can deliver a very dynamic punchy image.. 110" is also nice, as the size is a bit more impressive, but it will be hard to push more than 10fl without compromising the image quality to much.
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

Re: Evolution of CRT
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2016, 06:42:26 AM »
What is the status of CRT these days? I always felt nothing beat the image of CRT they look like an oil painting on the screen. As good as Digital is it still does not compare to a good CRT.
How wide of a screen are you guys doing these days?
Where do you get your support and parts?
Is there still a good source for projectors and parts?
Are further advancements still being made?

Good to see the CRT club keeping the sport alive.

Thank you!

Hey Alan,

My current Marquee was one of Galen's projectors; believe he sold you a similar one some years ago.  I'm running a 100" screen and with Strids help I'm cranking out 14ftl with a truly spectacular dynamic range.  The recent improvements have really taken the low end performance to another level; the ability to come out of black in a linear fashion is far superior to what it was just a few years ago let alone 10-yrs back.

There's no question that to achieve this with a Marquee is a lot of work and isn't for everyone.  Having said, with a BD source it provides for the most natural film like image.  Eventually (once all the color space issue are sorted out), there will be a 4K or 8K PJ that can display a 120"+ image from UHD sources that should be the next level in image fidelity.  I have a feeling it will be a good while before that becomes a reality.

Re: Evolution of CRT
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2017, 12:16:37 AM »
Justin, it was a huge pleasure to work on your Marquee in your new home theater room.. If you were a bit closer i would drop in with beer and snack just to watch a movie from time to time.

The 16fl, and 2.600.000.000:1 contrast made Harry potter an unike experience in 1080P 72hz ( 195Mhz pixel clock)
Ill go with that setup any day over any digital low contrast UHD HDR thing in this world today.

I have a question about these numbers. How did you measure this on/off to 2.600.000.000:1 with 16fl, this will give you a black reading of 0,0000000062fl?
Regards
Andreas                                                           

Calibration software: Lightspace and Calman. TPG: Murideo Fresco SIX-G
Meters: Klein K-10 A and Jeti 1501. THX II certified.

Re: Evolution of CRT
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2017, 08:52:23 AM »
I have a question about these numbers. How did you measure this on/off to 2.600.000.000:1 with 16fl, this will give you a black reading of 0,0000000062fl?

Its kind of a useless nr, as it was not able to measure any light at all.. So off was black as you wont find your own nose.. So infinite on off contrast would be more right, but i guess HCFR just calculate it a bit funky.
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

Re: Evolution of CRT
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2017, 10:08:10 AM »
Its kind of a useless nr, as it was not able to measure any light at all.. So off was black as you wont find your own nose.. So infinite on off contrast would be more right, but i guess HCFR just calculate it a bit funky.

What meter do you use?

And even more important, what do you measure with 1 % white? :D

I also see the coordinates for white is way off, why is this?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 10:14:00 AM by Andreas21 »
Regards
Andreas                                                           

Calibration software: Lightspace and Calman. TPG: Murideo Fresco SIX-G
Meters: Klein K-10 A and Jeti 1501. THX II certified.

Re: Evolution of CRT
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2017, 11:02:20 AM »
What meter do you use?

And even more important, what do you measure with 1 % white? :D

I also see the coordinates for white is way off, why is this?

Andreas this is Justins thread, and i dont want to pick up your mission against CRT here, we all know your motives from other forums.. Let it go, if you should develope a interest in CRT nobody is stopping you from buying one.  Maybe Per J in Norway will like to help you.
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

Re: Evolution of CRT
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2017, 11:40:23 AM »
Andreas this is Justins thread, and i dont want to pick up your mission against CRT here, we all know your motives from other forums.. Let it go, if you should develope a interest in CRT nobody is stopping you from buying one.  Maybe Per J in Norway will like to help you.


I am just asking some questions, am I not allowed? These are serious questions towards you and the equipment you use, I am just curious. ;)

And why do you think I am on a quest against CRT?? I have nothing against CRT, but I have something against misinformation.  When reading your posts in here it is clear what your mission is...
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 11:42:58 AM by Andreas21 »
Regards
Andreas                                                           

Calibration software: Lightspace and Calman. TPG: Murideo Fresco SIX-G
Meters: Klein K-10 A and Jeti 1501. THX II certified.

Re: Evolution of CRT
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2017, 11:55:16 AM »
I am just asking some questions, am I not allowed? These are serious questions towards you and the equipment you use, I am just curious. ;)

And why do you think I am on a quest against CRT?? I have nothing against CRT, but I have something against misinformation.  When reading your posts in here it is clear what your mission is...

Where is the misinformation in this thread?

Re: Evolution of CRT
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2017, 12:01:13 PM »
Where is the misinformation in this thread?

I did not specify he posted any misinformation in this tread. :D
Regards
Andreas                                                           

Calibration software: Lightspace and Calman. TPG: Murideo Fresco SIX-G
Meters: Klein K-10 A and Jeti 1501. THX II certified.

Re: Evolution of CRT
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2017, 03:06:09 PM »
Just saw the two Sin City I and II movies on the G90 and these BD films looks very good with total black between some of the chapters, and lots of sharp pictures with black an white contrast  etc..

The light output of 0% ire signals is nice, on the CRT but if you stand at the screen and look toward the projector when it's at normal running temperature, there often is a glow of light coming from the green phosphor. I have seen that on all the different CRT projectors I have used the last 15 years, so I don't think the on/off contrast is anything near the 2.600.000.000:1 numbers. The good thing is that the picture on the screen looks black even if the eyes have adapted to the total black room, so black is "disturbingly" black.
The best JVC lamp DI projectors these days also looks black in short movie blackouts, but when the eyes have adapted to the low light level, the total black illusion is lost. The Epson LS10xxx with laser light "bulb"  can actually go totally black, but there is a disturbance in "force".... there is a sudden light output when the laser is turning back on, so CRT is still high end at the low end :)


Re: Evolution of CRT
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2017, 03:55:42 PM »
Just saw the two Sin City I and II movies on the G90 and these BD films looks very good with total black between some of the chapters, and lots of sharp pictures with black an white contrast  etc..

The light output of 0% ire signals is nice, on the CRT but if you stand at the screen and look toward the projector when it's at normal running temperature, there often is a glow of light coming from the green phosphor. I have seen that on all the different CRT projectors I have used the last 15 years, so I don't think the on/off contrast is anything near the 2.600.000.000:1 numbers. The good thing is that the picture on the screen looks black even if the eyes have adapted to the total black room, so black is "disturbingly" black.
The best JVC lamp DI projectors these days also looks black in short movie blackouts, but when the eyes have adapted to the low light level, the total black illusion is lost. The Epson LS10xxx with laser light "bulb"  can actually go totally black, but there is a disturbance in "force".... there is a sudden light output when the laser is turning back on, so CRT is still high end at the low end :)

I think thats how its going to be untill we get a digital tech for HT where the light source is the panels.. and not a lamp, no matter if its a laser lamp or a normal lamp.. turning off the lamp will sure make it go black.. It a bit like measuring the on off contrast pulling the power plug when measuring off/ black, it dont have much relevance. So you have a dark sky with 2 bright stars on it.. do you turn off the lamp to get a decent black or turn it full on to get the stars at the level they are surposed to be.. To me its not much more than a gimick feature like auto iris to try fix something that dont work, but do so by adding a new problem.

No standard CRT is anywhere near perfect out of black, as some parts of the signal gets clipped while clamping the signal, the green phosfor decay/ glow have no energy, so it will never be able to put anything measurable on the display, but setting the brightness to dislay 1% IRE on the screen mostly elevate black so it will look a bit like a DLP projector, so most CRT projectors will clip up to around 3% IRE to maintain a decent black, and if you come perfect out of black on CRT you have a gamma around 2.6, wich i thin call for as much light as it can deliver to get a decent ramp out of black. Around 14-16 fl works the best to me with that high gamma, and then its also a very dynamic image.
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

Re: Evolution of CRT
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2017, 05:04:19 PM »
The last evolution of CRT is here..

One is right the other is wrong.. Wich one..?
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

Re: Evolution of CRT
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2017, 03:38:13 PM »
The last evolution of CRT is here..

One is right the other is wrong.. Wich one..?

I am using a 65" quantum dot TV to see these pictures, so both are probably wrong when it comes to the correct CRT projector look. The one on the left looks like it is unfocused and crushing the details in black and maybe have a to much de-focus on the blue or a convergence error or a lot of the typical setup errors that may occur on a CRT projector . The right one looks sharper and have more details in the darker areas, but i don't know the original material so that picture may be way  off too ?
The best way i know to check the PQ in screenshots is to save a frame from the BluRay as a picture file, and project that picture with the projector when taking the screenshot. The screenshot and the reference BD snapshot can then be looked at on a different screen and the screenshot then shows what the projector and the camera is doing different.

Re: Evolution of CRT
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2017, 11:54:06 PM »
I am using a 65" quantum dot TV to see these pictures, so both are probably wrong when it comes to the correct CRT projector look. The one on the left looks like it is unfocused and crushing the details in black and maybe have a to much de-focus on the blue or a convergence error or a lot of the typical setup errors that may occur on a CRT projector . The right one looks sharper and have more details in the darker areas, but i don't know the original material so that picture may be way  off too ?
The best way i know to check the PQ in screenshots is to save a frame from the BluRay as a picture file, and project that picture with the projector when taking the screenshot. The screenshot and the reference BD snapshot can then be looked at on a different screen and the screenshot then shows what the projector and the camera is doing different.

So true.. screenshots is as much about the camera as it is the projector,and then the monitor you watch the pictures on.

The reason for the left shot was mainly that the guy that posted that one had the idea that he was capable of telling how badly the videochain in the projector on the right worked, lookin on that exact screnshot, telling that it had muted colors due to bandwidth limitations.
So the projector was afterwords calibrated with reference to a screencap. ( result posted below)

The all knowing person with the ability to point out specifik errors in the videochain, and maker of the left screenshot is Mike Parker whos selling Marquee modifications, wich are often very troublesome, so i think his judgment is clouded by his financial involvement.
The main point was, dont judge someone elses gear based on a screenshot when you dont have the skills yourself to setup mod and calibrate a projector, and afterwords capture it with a camera.

So in the case of screenshots, its a combined art of setting up the entire system, from player to the image file out of the camera.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 11:57:19 PM by stridsvognen »
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

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