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The Feminization of the Marvel Universe

Barry

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The Feminization of the Marvel Universe
« on: June 11, 2023, 07:37:32 PM »
I have enjoyed MOST of the first real phase of the Marvel Universe, ending with Avengers Endgame.  But I have not greatly enjoyed most of the movies that have come after, nor have I been enamored with their TV shows.

Looking over the titles, I began to wonder why.  And I discovered a trend.  But please don’t tell anyone, I’ll get letters! Of course, the original (and successful comics) are mostly about men.

In the beginning, the Marvel Movie Universe was very much men conquering evil. But it began to turn and now very much feminine. Iron Man fought alone, but had a girlfriend.  The Hulk and Ant-Man fought alone and had girlfriend.

Then came Captain Marvel, a woman. I knew him as Walt Larson.

We then get the Black Widow.  The Doctor Strange movie was more about the Scarlet Witch than anything else.  Thor Love and Thunder was about Jane (Natalie Portman) who did most of the fighting. The Eternals and Guardians of the Galaxy had more female members than male. The Ant-Man got a partner, the Wasp.  And in his last movie, there were three Wasps and the youngest girl, his daughter was the hero. In fact, the last X-Men movie was about Jean Grey and little about anyone else.and the new Black Panther is a woman.

The Marvel TV Universe is very female.  Wanda Vision, then Hawkeye is now a Woman, followed by She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel.  Even “What If” had a woman become the new Captain America who was also featured in the last Dr. Strange movie).

The just announced that the new Captain Marvel movie will have only a multi female super hero cast.

I did like some of the recent movies. The last Spider-Man, with three Spider-Men was great. And I liked Captain Marvel and Shang Chi.  Don’t get me wrong, I love Hayley Atwell, Brie Larson, Scarlett Johanson and Michelle Pfeffer.  I am just not in love with the current movies and TV shows. 


« Last Edit: June 15, 2023, 10:32:34 PM by Barry »
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Re: The Feminization of the Marvel Universe
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2023, 07:44:14 PM »
I have enjoyed MOST of the first real phase of the Marvel Universe, ending with Avengers Endgame.  But I have not greatly enjoyed most of the movies that have come after, nor have I been enamored with their TV shows.
 
Looking over the titles, I began to wonder why.  And I discovered a trend.  But please don’t tell anyone, I’ll get letters! Of course, the original (and successful comics) are mostly about men.
 
In the beginning, the Marvel Movie Universe was very much men conquering evil. But it began to turn and now very much feminine. Iron Man fought alone, but had a girlfriend.  The Hulk and Ant-Man fought alone and had girlfriend.
 
Then came Captain Marvel, a woman. I knew him as Walt Larson.
 
We then get the Black Widow.  The Doctor Strange movie was more about the Scarlet Witch then anything else.  Thor Love and Thunder was about Jane (Natalie Portman) who did most of the fighting. The Eternals and Guardians of the Galaxy had more female members then male. The Ant-Man got a partner, the Wasp.  And in his last movie, there were three Wasps and the youngest girl, his daughter was the hero. In fact, the last X-Men movie was about Jean Grey and little about anyone else.
 
The Marvel TV Universe is very female.  Wanda Vision, then Hawkeye is now a Woman, followed by She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel.  Even “What If” had a woman become the new Captain America who was also featured in the last Dr. Strange movie).
 
The just announced that the new Captain Marvel movie will have only a multi female super hero cast.
 
I did like some of the recent movies. The last Spider-Man, with three Spider-Men was great. And I liked Captain Marvel and Shang Chi.  Don’t get me wrong, I love Hayley Atwell, Brie Larson, Scarlett Johanson and Michelle Pfeffer.  I am just not in love with the current movies and TV shows. 
Barry, you're lucky this is a safe space or else they would be picketing outside your home with pitchforks :D

I don't disagree with your take one bit. You hit the nail on the head. 
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Re: The Feminization of the Marvel Universe
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2023, 08:32:35 PM »
Right on, Barry!

The moment that really stuck out to me was the girl-power scene in Endgame.  It's not that women can't get together and fight, just that it was handled in such a clunky, pandering, and condescending manner.  My wife and I both groaned as it happened.  After that, women became an ever-greater focus in the stories, to the exclusion of men.

And it's not just Marvel, it's happening across all entertainment, and feels forced rather than organic.

I watched a presentation for upcoming Xbox games earlier today, and the majority featured female characters.

There's nothing wrong with having female heroes, but one has to wonder what the reason is for the sudden imbalance.  Judging by the box office results, it doesn't seem to be producing additional profits.


Scott
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bmoney

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Re: The Feminization of the Marvel Universe
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2023, 09:18:14 PM »
Barry, you're lucky this is a safe space or else they would be picketing outside your home with pitchforks :D

I don't disagree with your take one bit. You hit the nail on the head.
100% and 100% lol
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Re: The Feminization of the Marvel Universe
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2023, 10:20:04 PM »
I have enjoyed MOST of the first real phase of the Marvel Universe, ending with Avengers Endgame.  But I have not greatly enjoyed most of the movies that have come after, nor have I been enamored with their TV shows.
 
Looking over the titles, I began to wonder why.  And I discovered a trend.  But please don’t tell anyone, I’ll get letters! Of course, the original (and successful comics) are mostly about men.
 
In the beginning, the Marvel Movie Universe was very much men conquering evil. But it began to turn and now very much feminine. Iron Man fought alone, but had a girlfriend.  The Hulk and Ant-Man fought alone and had girlfriend.
 
Then came Captain Marvel, a woman. I knew him as Walt Larson.
 
We then get the Black Widow.  The Doctor Strange movie was more about the Scarlet Witch then anything else.  Thor Love and Thunder was about Jane (Natalie Portman) who did most of the fighting. The Eternals and Guardians of the Galaxy had more female members then male. The Ant-Man got a partner, the Wasp.  And in his last movie, there were three Wasps and the youngest girl, his daughter was the hero. In fact, the last X-Men movie was about Jean Grey and little about anyone else.
 
The Marvel TV Universe is very female.  Wanda Vision, then Hawkeye is now a Woman, followed by She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel.  Even “What If” had a woman become the new Captain America who was also featured in the last Dr. Strange movie).
 
The just announced that the new Captain Marvel movie will have only a multi female super hero cast.
 
I did like some of the recent movies. The last Spider-Man, with three Spider-Men was great. And I liked Captain Marvel and Shang Chi.  Don’t get me wrong, I love Hayley Atwell, Brie Larson, Scarlett Johanson and Michelle Pfeffer.  I am just not in love with the current movies and TV shows. 
My wife feels exactly the same way, so this isn't just a "male" issue. 
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Re: The Feminization of the Marvel Universe
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2023, 11:02:44 PM »
I'll lead with something my most frequent movie going companion observed after the Harley Quinn Birds of Prey movie a few years ago: it proved that women could make a sexist movie too. Now we regularly have women who are half the size of competent, trained men, physically overpowering them. 

It's obviously been a major trend in movies & TV for years now, to the extent that I looked at a swath of "genre" shows that were on or coming out a couple of years ago and the large majority were female leads. To some extent I guess it's compensating for the very small amount of such roles for decades, and as with anything there are good and bad examples. The stuff where I just bail immediately is when they can't resist not just empowering the women, but also diminishing men. The Amazon Wheel of Time series started out that way in the first 10-15 minutes and that was enough for me. 

I remember as a teen reading a story by James Tiptree Jr called "Houston, Houston, Do You Read?" where an all male crew of astronauts ends up returning to Earth centuries later - somewhat similar to Plant of the Apes. In this case, men have died out or been exterminated and the all women society is greatly superior. But that wasn't enough - the men were all depicted as depraved, sex obsessed stereotypes, too violent and primitive to be allowed to live. (One of the male characters ends up acknowledging & legitimizing this view.) I knew instinctively the author wasn't a man, and years later found out that was the case as Tiptree Jr. was a pseudonym for Alice Sheldon. It actually won the top 2 SF awards, the Hugo & Nebula, in 1976/77. Seemed like an aberration then but it wouldn't surprise me if it got picked up for a series now.

tripplej

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Re: The Feminization of the Marvel Universe
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2023, 11:06:12 PM »
Black Widow was aimed at women  yet men watched it more than women.

from hollywoodreporter,


Quote
"Black Widow was frontloaded at the domestic box office and fueled by fanboys (males made up 58 percent of ticket buyers)."
She-Hulk and Ms Marvel also didn't do well.


from bleedingfool,


Quote
Disney+’s Ms. Marvel is setting record-low viewership stats for Marvel Studios ... Ms. Marvel was watched by a mere 775K households in the U.S; being the first Marvel Cinematic Universe series to not provide at least a million viewers.
Best Marvel go back and focus on their male audience!
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AVSCraig

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Re: The Feminization of the Marvel Universe
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2023, 12:48:42 AM »
I liked Black Widow, other than the fact it came out in the wrong order, seeing as it's a origin story. I really liked Captain Marvel too - there are some great laugh out loud moments. I can't be bothered to watch any of the shows though. No loss IMO. Also, I've never read a comic book in my life. 
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bmoney

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Re: The Feminization of the Marvel Universe
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2023, 06:57:21 AM »
Star Wars has gone this way. In fact tons of Hollywood has too 
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Re: The Feminization of the Marvel Universe
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2023, 09:38:30 AM »
I liked Captain Marvel. Some of the criticism on this topic goes way too far and rejects any and every female empowerment, which I definitely don't agree with either. As usual these days we have entrenched extremes on both ends. I think most of us want a good story with characters that make some kind of sense and don't feel like they're just being created as pages from someone's therapy session / diary.

Barry

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Re: The Feminization of the Marvel Universe
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2023, 02:32:20 PM »
David was right when he said, "Barry, you're lucky this is a safe space or else they would be picketing outside your home with pitchforks."  I posed this o a Facebook pagve and was totally insulted, no one aaddressed the issue.  I was also told that I did not know the comics from which these were taken.

Again, I really enjoyed Captain Marvel and, for that matter, the first Wonder Woman movie.  But I enjoy very little of the Disney Streaming shows.

Rather than give women new platforms, Hollywood seems to be taking old platforms and recycling them.  The originak Ghostbusters Movie was great it jhad new ideas and things I had never seen before. Then they remake it using four VERY and talented funny women and there is nothing new.  They deserve better. Why not give them a new platform.  They did the same thing wioth movies such as Overboard, Karate Kid, Whar Men Eaht,  Oceans 11 or 8, and even the TV show Equilizer.  Give these women something new!!!!!!
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Re: The Feminization of the Marvel Universe
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2023, 02:49:17 PM »
The 2 recent Ghostbusters movies are a great example in comparing and contrasting female lead roles. Answer The Call had some great talents, actresses I have enjoyed as comedians elsewhere, but it just didn't come together well. Writing or directing, some combination, but it seemed to constrain them. Maybe it was a bit too much of a straight recreation instead of something new, as Barry alluded to. But Afterlife was WAY better - and it had a young female lead who was fantastic. 

Barry

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Re: The Feminization of the Marvel Universe
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2023, 03:05:39 PM »
The 2 recent Ghostbusters movies are a great example in comparing and contrasting female lead roles. Answer The Call had some great talents, actresses I have enjoyed as comedians elsewhere, but it just didn't come together well. Writing or directing, some combination, but it seemed to constrain them. Maybe it was a bit too much of a straight recreation instead of something new, as Barry alluded to. But Afterlife was WAY better - and it had a young female lead who was fantastic.
I liked Afterlife too! Again, the young woman had a orignal role. I want to see more originality, not copies.
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Re: The Feminization of the Marvel Universe
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2023, 08:20:42 PM »
David was right when he said, "Barry, you're lucky this is a safe space or else they would be picketing outside your home with pitchforks."  I posed this o a Facebook pagve and was totally insulted, no one aaddressed the issue.  I was also told that I did not know the comics from which these were taken.
This is part of the problem.  Instead of having a rational discussion about your observations, any such talk is shut down.  Often times the person mentioning it is branded as harboring some kind of prejudice, so that anyone that might want to express a similar opinion is cowed into silence.

I love that they told you that you don't know the original material.  What ignorance.

I'm grateful that a discussion like this can be had in this forum by sticking to the points, without having to disparage anyone's character.

Scott
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Re: The Feminization of the Marvel Universe
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2023, 09:51:56 PM »
This is part of the problem.  Instead of having a rational discussion about your observations, any such talk is shut down.  Often times the person mentioning it is branded as harboring some kind of prejudice, so that anyone that might want to express a similar opinion is cowed into silence.

I love that they told you that you don't know the original material.  What ignorance.

I'm grateful that a discussion like this can be had in this forum by sticking to the points, without having to disparage anyone's character.

Scott
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