Need some VT60 plasma replacement advice

[flyinion]

Hi guys, hoping to cut through all the hype, hearsay, etc. I see everywhere and figure out what to do here.  Current situation I definitely can't do a projector, hopefully in a couple years or so we'll be in a new house and I can plan to make sure I have a space that supports one.  So I'm looking to replace my Panasonic 60" VT60 plasma.  It's never been calibrated, just running it in the "supposedly pretty accurate out of the box according to CNet at the time" THX Cinema mode with a few tweaks to contrast/etc. with a DVE blu-ray.  Pretty much everything that can be in my signal chain is now 4K ready and just needs the TV "dropped" in.  

Right now I've been debating between the LG C9 65" or something like the Sony X950G in 65".  I know OLED is supposed to be the best pic, but the potential for IR is still spooking me.  I've had to constantly stay on top of the VT60 for almost 6 years now with being careful about static content/etc. and would really like to not have to deal with that which is one reason I was considering something like the X950G.  I've heard the OLED's are a lot better but that the way pixel wear works on them, if you watch stuff with static content even if you don't see temporary IR, it's apparently still permanently wearing on them and eventually over time watching those channels enough you'd see permanent IR/burn-in appear no matter what.

We generally watch TV in a fairly dim room when it's not daylight out.  Not dark, the two can lights in the dining room in the open kitchen/living area are on, but not well lit either so I know that might affect the perceived contrast/black levels on an LED.  What do you guys think?  Go for OLED anyway, or something like the X950G or whatever successor to the Z9F appears?  When I bought the plasma I wanted the best, but didn't really think about the multi-use part that would occur with channel logos, desire for some casual console gaming (of which zero has occurred since getting the VT60), etc.

[David Vaughn]

Hi guys, hoping to cut through all the hype, hearsay, etc. I see everywhere and figure out what to do here.  Current situation I definitely can't do a projector, hopefully in a couple years or so we'll be in a new house and I can plan to make sure I have a space that supports one.  So I'm looking to replace my Panasonic 60" VT60 plasma.  It's never been calibrated, just running it in the "supposedly pretty accurate out of the box according to CNet at the time" THX Cinema mode with a few tweaks to contrast/etc. with a DVE blu-ray.  Pretty much everything that can be in my signal chain is now 4K ready and just needs the TV "dropped" in. 

Right now I've been debating between the LG C9 65" or something like the Sony X950G in 65".  I know OLED is supposed to be the best pic, but the potential for IR is still spooking me.  I've had to constantly stay on top of the VT60 for almost 6 years now with being careful about static content/etc. and would really like to not have to deal with that which is one reason I was considering something like the X950G.  I've heard the OLED's are a lot better but that the way pixel wear works on them, if you watch stuff with static content even if you don't see temporary IR, it's apparently still permanently wearing on them and eventually over time watching those channels enough you'd see permanent IR/burn-in appear no matter what.

We generally watch TV in a fairly dim room when it's not daylight out.  Not dark, the two can lights in the dining room in the open kitchen/living area are on, but not well lit either so I know that might affect the perceived contrast/black levels on an LED.  What do you guys think?  Go for OLED anyway, or something like the X950G or whatever successor to the Z9F appears?  When I bought the plasma I wanted the best, but didn't really think about the multi-use part that would occur with channel logos, desire for some casual console gaming (of which zero has occurred since getting the VT60), etc.

Did you see the flat panel shootout results? Check out the results here:  https://www.soundandvision.com/content/sony-a9g-oled-crowned-king-tv-2019-shootout

I'm an OLED fan myself, although I don't own one. My main display is a front projector and I have a 13 year old plasma in a spare den that gets watched rarely. 

[flyinion]

Did you see the flat panel shootout results? Check out the results here:  https://www.soundandvision.com/content/sony-a9g-oled-crowned-king-tv-2019-shootout

I'm an OLED fan myself, although I don't own one. My main display is a front projector and I have a 13 year old plasma in a spare den that gets watched rarely.

I'll check it out, though I'm pretty sure the A9 will be out of the price range (similar to the ZT series when I was buying the VT60).  Also just saw the Z9G is now an 8K model for a boatload of $$$ so looks like if I do LED it would be the X950G for sure.  None of the Samsung stuff looked very good to me on RTings, and the X950G is apparently very accurate out of the box (similar to the VT60) and way more accurate out of the box apparently than the C9 as well.  The A8G is out because I found out it doesn't support eARC either (my AVR does support it).

edit:  just to be clear about my price range thing since the non-sale price is pretty close, I was looking at the C9 currently being on sale for 800 less than the A9G, and of course the X950G is almost 1/2 the cost of the A9G.

[David Vaughn]

I'll check it out, though I'm pretty sure the A9 will be out of the price range (similar to the ZT series when I was buying the VT60).  Also just saw the Z9G is now an 8K model for a boatload of $$$ so looks like if I do LED it would be the X950G for sure.  None of the Samsung stuff looked very good to me on RTings, and the X950G is apparently very accurate out of the box (similar to the VT60) and way more accurate out of the box apparently than the C9 as well.  The A8G is out because I found out it doesn't support eARC either (my AVR does support it).

edit:  just to be clear about my price range thing since the non-sale price is pretty close, I was looking at the C9 currently being on sale for 800 less than the A9G, and of course the X950G is almost 1/2 the cost of the A9G.

One thing about the OLED panels...they are all the same. Only the extra processing is different in the higher end models (and they may have better speakers, which shouldn't matter if you use a outboard system). 

[Barry]

I just love my LG 65 oled. And I’ve had absolutely no problem with that whatsoever! I have had it for two years I believe it is the C7 model. My advice, go for the LG 65. Great Picture. If you have any questions to ask me go right ahead

[flyinion]

I just love my LG 65 oled. And I’ve had absolutely no problem with that whatsoever! I have had it for two years I believe it is the C7 model. My advice, go for the LG 65. Great Picture. If you have any questions to ask me go right ahead

What types of content do you run on it?  Just movies, TV with logos, video games?  For stuff with IR/burn-in potential if you run it how long at a time do you run it, etc.

[Barry]

I watch TV, cable, streaming and blu ray and 4k discs.  There is a great function for maintaining the picture, i forget its name. You can run it overnight or it runs it. I think it is called pixel refresher.

Also check out: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2018/12/04/oled-screen-burn-is-there-a-ticking-time-bomb-inside-your-tv/#2fc323de363d

[flyinion]

Well, looks like I might be waiting till after the end of the year at least now.  Some $$$ stuff came up where my siblings and I are planning to give my parents a large chunk of $$$ at Christmas towards a cruise for their 50th anniversary in May.  We had planned to give it to them well after the 1st of the year but we learned a couple weeks ago they're already planning a cruise trip on their own lol so we've pushed up the time to make sure they have it in time to really go all out.  So yeah there goes the money I thought was gonna be able to upgrade the TV.  At least it's not all bad news.  I just read an article a day or two ago that due to recent mfr'ing process improvements 2020 models for OLED are expected to be 15-25% cheaper out of the gate not counting any sales that typically happen to them frequently. 

On a side note I did recently go to Best Buy and compare a C9 to a X950G.  The 950 was definitely brighter in the store, however I didn't actually check to see what settings each was on.  If I was getting really serious I'd take in a list of settings to put both on to check.  We played the same scene from Guardians' of the Galaxy 2 on both though and the 950 had some obvious lack of contrast in a few spots.  Not bad by any means but the super colorful scenes leading up to Groot being instructed about  how to use a device...........during some panning shots of "coral" looking structures they looked flatter on the 950.  Since the C9 was showing a darker picture though it could have also been a perceived difference in that scene.  There was an obvious difference in motion though and that might very well keep me away from LCD.  I know last year I was looking and on the I believe X900F or possibly it was the Z9F I used the RTings recommended settings for fixing soap opera effect and the resulting jerky panning/etc. was not pleasing at all.

[flyinion]

So I'm bringing this back up for the new year.  Looking to hopefully upgrade the VT60 still to a 4K panel in 2020.  I'm still unsure of what to go with.  OLED vs some sort of QLED tech especially with the new 2020 models about to hit (rumor I saw last year was 2020+ OLED was going to be much cheaper due to mfg. improvements discovered some time last year).  

I know obviously from a PQ perspective and considering we always watch in an at least decently light controlled environment that OLED would be the best, but after my plasma experience with any little thing sitting on the screen for even a couple minutes giving some temporary IR I'm pretty hesitant.  I actually avoid watching extended content on channels that have logos after a scare early on (in the first year) with the Food Network logo leaving part of the "OO" in "FOOD" that took months to mostly/completely go away (panel was "broken in" with whatever the recommended time was for to run color slides in a loop before we even started using it.

Given that I'd like to maybe pick up the next gen XBox console to game with some friends that do a bit of console stuff, that has me worried about IR/burn-in on OLED there as well.  I'm not going to be doing hours and hours a day but there might be some sessions 1 maybe 2 in a week depending (I mostly game on PC) that would go for a couple hours or so.  So I'm just kind thinking maybe I need to compromise and look at something a little more IR tolerant?  With our current viewing setup we wouldn't really sit off angle from the TV, though one chair does have about a 10-15 degree max (maybe?) viewing angle.  That doesn't account for any moves to a new house in the life of the TV though.  

[flyinion]

Well, I found my replacement.  If you saw the other thread where I was considering a couple of Sony LCD's as well, in the end I did NOT go that way.

65" LG CX on the way from Best Buy.  Delivery Monday the 6th.  I could have had it today but I didn't have a big enough vehicle to properly haul it, and I'd rather wait a couple days than end up with a cracked screen before it's even unboxed.

The plasma is going to a friend of ours for about $300 so it will have a good home.

[David Vaughn]

Well, I found my replacement.  If you saw the other thread where I was considering a couple of Sony LCD's as well, in the end I did NOT go that way.

65" LG CX on the way from Best Buy.  Delivery Monday the 6th.  I could have had it today but I didn't have a big enough vehicle to properly haul it, and I'd rather wait a couple days than end up with a cracked screen before it's even unboxed.

The plasma is going to a friend of ours for about $300 so it will have a good home.

Congratulations. That's a very nice TV. 

[flyinion]

Congratulations. That's a very nice TV.

Thanks I can’t wait. I’m also not worried about it being bright enough. They had a 55 and 65 both on the floor instead of the light controlled magnolia area and while playing that HDR demo with the honey etc it looked more than bright enough. 

[luckywales]

I would LOVE to know what you did.  I actually just PM'd a guy I saw that also had a VT60, so I'm going to paste what I wrote him and hope it helps in this discussion.

 I went with the hype and ordered a 65" CX and it arrived last Friday. I'm coming from a Panny ZT60 - perhaps with the Pioneer Elite one of the better TVs made in terms of ability to derive an accurate picture, for 1080p. I spent the time and money to get that TV perfectly calibrated to my room.

I tried for hours setting up the CX on Saturday and again on Sunday.  I also ran a calibration UHD blu ray.  Normally, I go through each stage, making sure to meet each criteria, knowing at the very end I'll need to make minute adjustments just to go from "calibrated" to my own preference.  I turned off all automatic nonsense on the TV and honestly, I couldn't perfectly calibrate any one step.  The black gradient step was absolutely hopeless.  Then I tried something called ISF as a mode (which I normally never do), and it was no better.  Incredibly disappointed for TV that apparently gets such amazing reviews.  Is everyone just concerned about how black "black" can be?  There's so much more to it than that! The contrast out of the box was extremely impressive but still couldn't be made "right" in terms of calibration. I know calibration seeks to average out events for all viewing, but since I do view multiple types of events, I find that it's the best route for me.

Overall my findings were: blacks were much "blacker" than my Panny but the "black crush" was too noticeable for me with extremely poor gradients between blacks. To run the comparison, I tried watching the scene from Godfather with Marlon Brando sitting at his desk.  It's a dark room and he's in a dark suit - it's an incredible shot that pushes displays. Then I looked at that scene on my ZT60.  Yes the black is blacker on the LG, but the gradients of black are atrocious on the CX. On the plasma, you see multiple layers of black/dark gray, dray, light black, darker black as he or others move in and out of the shadows. The extra detail was night and day...no pun intended.

This made no sense to me but then going back and being careful about reading reviews, whilst I saw references to "deep blacks" I found only a couple of reviews that discuss the gradients of blacks. Further research revealed that while LG makes the OLED panels for both Sony and Panasonic, the latter MIGHT implement it better due to less restrictions on their budgets as their buyers are willing to pay a few more dollars. The biggest problem is comparing these things. Looking at them in a brightly lit Best Buy is simply nothing like it will be at your home.

As you probably know, Panasonic make the most out of those panels and sell the best OLED TVs. They're used in Hollywood, London and Mumbai to check UHD blu-ray demo productions to reference standard data streams from the sets. Problem - I knew they didn't sell those in the USA, and I live in Houston. I thought they sold them in Canada and was willing to fly there, pick one up and drive it home. New problem - Panasonic pulled completely out of North America in 2020. They just can't sell their TVs for the prices they need to charge. In a similar way to how plasma died for Samsung and Panasonic, there's not enough margin there unless you skimp on everything after the panel. I've been trading emails all morning with Canadian electronics suppliers who are gutted and I've since learned that when there was a a buyer that was willing to spend the dough and they actually saw the panels next to each other, nobody chose the LG CX over the Panny. Some chose to go in the middle and pick up the Sony. Others chose to save the $$ and go with the LG and why not - they might or might not see a difference and decide their hard-earned money is better spent elsewhere.

I relayed my testing/setup experience with them and, universally, they agreed that they've heard about this black gradient problem with LG, BUT it's also a slight problem on the Panny and Sony. A couple said its pervasive with OLEDs but the tradeoff with deep black and slight black crush wasn't as big with Panasonic and Sony ran a close second. Therefore, I'm going to try the A9G. I don't love that it doesn't have HDMI 2.1 (wtf?) but I need a TV as my plasma dies a noble death.

This is a very personal choice, but I'm just letting you know what I learned over the last 80 hours or so.