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BenQ LK990 First Impressions

Re: BenQ LK990 First Impressions
« Reply #165 on: May 21, 2020, 06:34:47 AM »
I posted this elsewhere, but it’s relevant here as well.......

I’ve seen this video awhile ago, before I discovered this Dolby Vision hack for any HDR display, but I decided to watch it again to see if it became more relevant to what I’m doing now.

To put it simply, this long and detailed video comparison between Dolby Vision and HDR10 by Vincent Teo is pretty much spot on with EXACTLY the differences I see here when I compare my old HDR10 settings to these new LLDV/DolbyVision ones on my LK990.

I think anyone wanting to know what this LLDV mod will give you if you decide to partake in this adventure should simply watch this video. It’s that’s simple. It is well worth the 45 minute time investment. Enjoy!

I’ve seen this video awhile ago, before I discovered this Dolby Vision hack for any HDR display, but I decided to watch it again to see if it became more relevant to what I’m doing now.

To put it simply, this long and detailed video comparison between Dolby Vision and HDR10 by Vincent Teo is pretty much spot on with EXACTLY the differences I see here when I compare my old HDR10 settings to these new LLDV/DolbyVision ones on my LK990.

I think anyone wanting to know what this LLDV mod will give you if you decide to partake in this adventure should simply watch this video. It’s that’s simple. It is well worth the 45 minute time investment. Enjoy!




« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 06:37:59 AM by HarperVision »

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Re: BenQ LK990 First Impressions
« Reply #166 on: May 21, 2020, 06:54:15 AM »
The technology on all of these E-shift DLP's is the same technology and all of them have very limited native contrast near 1,000:1. When compared side by side with a high contrast projector, that glaring weakness really stands out, when you look at darker scenes. 

As for you bringing up the 4500 having laser dimming, the 4500 starts off with a native that is 5 to 10 times greater than these DLP's. If the 4500 only had around 1,000:1 native, I would have a problem recommending it also. 

If you are going to debate this, debate the subject, not attack the poster. Not doing so will get your posts deleted.
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Re: BenQ LK990 First Impressions
« Reply #167 on: May 21, 2020, 08:40:01 AM »
No one is arguing with you about the benefits that DV brings to the table. I'm just apprehensive about how it looks through this specific projector.

You can go on and on about how you have it setup and how I haven't personally seen your new settings, but I've seen enough projectors to know how the image will look, roughly speaking, given the objective performance the LK990 offers. And while I didn't plug your new settings into the LK990 when I had the opportunity to play with one, I can guarantee you that no amount of fiddling with settings is going to make enough of a difference to totally transform how this projector looks. To put it simply, you cannot fix the atrocious contrast performance with the setting options in the menu.

In the year 2020, against other projectors around its price, the LK990 falls behind dramatically in terms of dynamic range. So, again, you can play around with the image between black and white all you want, but the level of black the LK990 offers is not even remotely competitive and this limits how this projector can compete. Before you go on about how I don't understand what you're doing, trust me, I do. I've played around with straight HDR going into projectors quite a bit.

Dave, what if we were to send DV to a Sony or JVC projector and find a comparable set of image settings that you've applied to the LK990? Why not do this instead so you can get the native 4K image and higher contrast that these other projectors offer on top of DV? Why waste time with the LK990?

« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 09:56:20 AM by Dylan Seeger »
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Re: BenQ LK990 First Impressions
« Reply #168 on: May 21, 2020, 04:31:36 PM »
The technology on all of these E-shift DLP's is the same technology and all of them have very limited native contrast near 1,000:1. When compared side by side with a high contrast projector, that glaring weakness really stands out, when you look at darker scenes.

As for you bringing up the 4500 having laser dimming, the 4500 starts off with a native that is 5 to 10 times greater than these DLP's. If the 4500 only had around 1,000:1 native, I would have a problem recommending it also.

If you are going to debate this, debate the subject, not attack the poster. Not doing so will get your posts deleted.
Sorry, I didn't feel as though I was attacking anyone.  I was just making rebuttal posts and pointing out the fact that the replies indicate that the posts themselves weren't being read or understood.  If anyone should feel attacked I would think it would be me, considering the condescension being applied in everyone's posts towards me, like I am some sort of clown (someone's words exactly, BTW, so who was the one being attacked?) or fool who doesn't know what he's doing, when in fact since neither of you have done this or appear willing to do so, I would say the proverbial shoe is on the other foot at this point in time.

I already said, including in the posts I just re-posted yesterday, that it never was or is about its native contrast and the comparison to projectors like the RS4500, etc.  I said it was using the same "concept", wherein the lasers are able to dim further in steps towards black when doing this, greatly helping the perception of blacks, just as those laser projectors like the RS4500 do.  As I said, this concept has been stated by Woofer and Markmon many, many times in clarification when comparing black levels and contrast on projectors like the RS4500 vs RS3000.  I am sure you have seen these comments, yet I didn't see this reaction from you or anyone to them when they said essentially the same things as I am.  Plus, they weren't even using or discussing this new Dolby Vision mod, which helps it even more, although with their use of DTM I am sure it is similar.

You just keep doing what I said too.  Just basically copying and pasting your standard DLP answer every time.  Why not open your mind and start thinking out of the box with some new paradigms?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 05:29:26 PM by HarperVision »

Re: BenQ LK990 First Impressions
« Reply #169 on: May 21, 2020, 05:03:15 PM »
No one is arguing with you about the benefits that DV brings to the table. I'm just apprehensive about how it looks through this specific projector....

You shouldn't be.  It is incredible.  But that's not the only thing this is all about.

...You can go on and on about how you have it setup and how I haven't personally seen your new settings, but I've seen enough projectors to know how the image will look, roughly speaking, given the objective performance the LK990 offers. And while I didn't plug your new settings into the LK990 when I had the opportunity to play with one, I can guarantee you that no amount of fiddling with settings is going to make enough of a difference to totally transform how this projector looks. To put it simply, you cannot fix the atrocious contrast performance with the setting options in the menu.

In the year 2020, against other projectors around its price, the LK990 falls behind dramatically in terms of dynamic range. So, again, you can play around with the image between black and white all you want, but the level of black the LK990 offers is not even remotely competitive and this limits how this projector can compete. Before you go on about how I don't understand what you're doing, trust me, I do. I've played around with straight HDR going into projectors quite a bit....

Your guarantee would be incorrect.  To the contrary, you have no idea what it is I have done, and your replies show this to be the case.

Again, for the umpteenth time, this is not about black levels and contrast!  I have clearly stated that I agree those JVCs, Sonys and even Epsons are better at this one thing and also some color gamut coverage.  It is more about everything else this brings to the table which far outweigh that one or two things that those projectors do better.

....Dave, what if we were to send DV to a Sony or JVC projector and find a comparable set of image settings that you've applied to the LK990? Why not do this instead so you can get the native 4K image and higher contrast that these other projectors offer on top of DV? Why waste time with the LK990?

That is a very easy answer, which I have answered already as well......sharpness, detail, depth of image, added brightness for specular highlight reproduction as is seen on HDR/DV flat panels, and many other attributes I can't think of right now.  This and all the other posts sum it up for me......

...While I agree, you can't really have high dynamic range without one or both of the ends being higher and/or lower, in this case....brightness, along with maintaining some semblance of a good black floor, which this has with these settings and features engaged.  You may have a display/projector that can do awesome black which is great for the low end of the scale when figuring dynamic range, but you also need to at least have the higher end available too if you want TRUE "High Dynamic Range". All you have to do is think of the audio world to know that.  If your projector tops out at 100 nits or so, you don't have that, period.  Sure, your video image may use dynamic tone mapping (compression is all), but all it is doing is showing a 100 nit sliding range of what the frame is that's being displayed, so if it's a dark scene with a bright light in it as I mentioned earlier, your sunlight/specular highlight will never be even close to where it actually should be, since it will never get above 100 nits, if that, based on your compression (tone mapping) algorithm.  I am getting the full 100 nits image WITHOUT compression, and then using the nits above that (~175 nits range) for anything beyond the basic HDR movie image, i.e. - explosions, sunlight, flames, chrome flashes, lens flares, specular highlights, etc.  This is exactly why HDR/DV Flat Panels with higher brightness capability look so much better than projectors, even the worse black level ones like LCD, which everyone should agree....

Black levels/contrast are simply not the only factors involved when judging what a great image is.  Once again, see attached.....

I can see once again I won't get any open mindedness and willingness to think beyond preconceived notions by the ones who posted replies to me, so I guess I am done here once again.  I was hoping to have open discussions on these concepts with the replies being the subject with point-counterpoint type discussions without blind responses not even in specific response to the points I was actually making, but alas this is not to be again.

I am sure you'll get the last word in, so enjoy your "victory", even if it's to the detriment of those who mistakenly believe it.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 05:05:16 PM by HarperVision »

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Re: BenQ LK990 First Impressions
« Reply #170 on: May 21, 2020, 07:12:05 PM »
In really good rooms with a projector that has good dynamic range, HDR with 30FL and good dynamic tone mapping looks very good, increasing the FL does not show a marked improvement in HDR performance. At least I could not see it with mid 40's FL. Craig and many others have said the same thing. While I do not see a marked improvement at 45FL, I certainly do see the loss of contrast on the low end. I have seen dozens of these DLP's and all of them (except the Eclipse) have this problem and no settings can change this. In a good room it stands out like a sore thumb. 

Sharpness is very good, but the contrast, :( I had an E-shift DLP here recently for several weeks, looked good except for the dark scenes. There is no getting around this and maybe if you ever compared, you would see what we are talking about. Dylan and his group saw this problem, kris and his group saw this problem and Markmon and his group also saw this problem. 

So rather than keep telling us we have not seen the LK with your latest settings, though you made the same claims with your last settings and those have been compared, maybe you should try to see what all the people that have compared see and compare the two yourself.
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Re: BenQ LK990 First Impressions
« Reply #171 on: May 21, 2020, 07:33:48 PM »
Whatever you say, Mike.  Still harping on contrast and blacks alone.  Have fun in your walled garden.

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Re: BenQ LK990 First Impressions
« Reply #172 on: May 22, 2020, 05:53:41 AM »
You talk like contrast is nothing. You know that ISF does not share that opinion. 

Every year, after CEDIA someone always asks what was the best looking projector at CEDIA. For the last several years the answer has been an LCOS projector. CEDIA has DLP's there that are brighter, higher contrast and if cost is any indicator, better lenses and yet every year, they do not get the nod for best image at the show. Where DLP does get the nod is in light output. 

The LK990 throws a sharp image, but LCOS is pretty good in that area also. Take a look here where Projector Central tested resolution of the RS2000 to the BenQ HT9060.https://www.projectorcentral.com/Projector-Resolution-Shootout-Part-2.htm

The LK990 may be sharper than the HT9060, but at this point we are splitting hairs, since everyone readily admits the HT9060 is very sharp. So you are trying to use light output as the big differentiator and I am using contrast. I believe ISF is on my side.
My Baffle Wall System: https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=124.msg902#msg902

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Re: BenQ LK990 First Impressions
« Reply #173 on: May 22, 2020, 08:10:11 AM »
Kris Deering really dialed back the brightness on my RS4500, but improved the shadow detail and darker scenes substantially. Even guests remarked how it looked much better. Of course the Lumagen's dynamic tone mapping helps substantially. At least on my screen, I don't need the shear brightness anymore. 
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Re: BenQ LK990 First Impressions
« Reply #174 on: May 22, 2020, 09:26:22 AM »
Another thing worth noting is that some of these dynamic tonemapping solutions have a highlight recovery feature. What this does is restore detail within the image that would normally be lost to clipping if just a static tone map were used so you don't lose out on picture information that's supposed to be present in the image. Honestly, I don't see too many drawbacks to dynamic tonemapping on projectors.
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Re: BenQ LK990 First Impressions
« Reply #175 on: May 22, 2020, 09:59:58 AM »
Kris Deering really dialed back the brightness on my RS4500, but improved the shadow detail and darker scenes substantially. Even guests remarked how it looked much better. Of course the Lumagen's dynamic tone mapping helps substantially. At least on my screen, I don't need the shear brightness anymore.

https://i.imgur.com/Z46CvhN.jpg
BenQ LK990 First Impressions


Just took possession of a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446+. Really looking forward to checking out its scaling and DTM capabilities.
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Re: BenQ LK990 First Impressions
« Reply #176 on: May 22, 2020, 10:49:00 AM »
https://i.imgur.com/Z46CvhN.jpg
BenQ LK990 First Impressions


Just took possession of a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446+. Really looking forward to checking out its scaling and DTM capabilities.

Excellent. Take your time getting familiar with the setup. And make sure to download the latest firmware if it doesn't have it already ! 
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Re: BenQ LK990 First Impressions
« Reply #177 on: May 22, 2020, 01:35:16 PM »
https://i.imgur.com/Z46CvhN.jpg
BenQ LK990 First Impressions


Just took possession of a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446+. Really looking forward to checking out its scaling and DTM capabilities.
Dylan,
Do you run madVR ?
If so , will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the 2 solutions.

I have a 4242 Radiance that i use to compare to madVR..


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Re: BenQ LK990 First Impressions
« Reply #178 on: May 22, 2020, 02:23:56 PM »
Dylan,
Do you run madVR ?
If so , will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the 2 solutions.

I have a 4242 Radiance that i use to compare to madVR..
Is that all you use it for, or do you actually watch stuff with the Radiance Pro. ? ::)8)
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Re: BenQ LK990 First Impressions
« Reply #179 on: May 22, 2020, 03:01:14 PM »
Dylan,
Do you run madVR ?
If so , will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the 2 solutions.

I have a 4242 Radiance that i use to compare to madVR..


Yes, purpose built HTPC with an RTX2070 graphics card. It's a holiday weekend here and I have some plans with family, so I won't be able to set up the Lumagen 100% until next week.
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