JVC DLA-RS1000/N5 & RS2000/NX7 Owners Thread

[Manni]

As there has been quite a bit of interest in madVR in this thread, I thought you might be interested in this...

[AVSMike]

Just to report a bug in the rs2000: when 12bits is sent from an nVidia GPU, although the output is set to RGB and the info on the JVC reports RGB 12bits, the JVC switches internally to ycc422. This causes the wrong levels to be applied (you need to select 0-255 as there is no video levels in YCC). There is no such bug in 8bits. HDMI bandwidth isn't an issue as this happens at 23p, and 8bits is forced by the driver at 60p anyway. It would be great if JVC could correct this.

Response back:

"I need a little more clarity.
 
RGB is 4:4:4 color.  You can’t do 4k/60P/4:4:4 at 12 bit.  8 bit is max.  That is spelled out in the manual.
 
I’m sure computers can output it, but I don’t know that there is any content.  I don’t think it’s part of the HDMI spec.  I am sure it’s not part of our spec."

[AVSMike]

As there has been quite a bit of interest in madVR in this thread, I thought you might be interested in this...

I am definitely interested.

[Manni]

Response back:

"I need a little more clarity.
 
RGB is 4:4:4 color.  You can’t do 4k/60P/4:4:4 at 12 bit.  8 bit is max.  That is spelled out in the manual.
 
I’m sure computers can output it, but I don’t know that there is any content.  I don’t think it’s part of the HDMI spec.  I am sure it’s not part of our spec."

Thanks Mike.
i don’t think they have fully read/understood the report.
Of course 4K60p can’t be output in 12bits. The driver never sends 4K60p in 12bits, it reverts automatically to 8bits when 60p content is played if 12bits is selected by default. You can’t select 12bits for a 4K60p refresh rate anyway, the driver only accepts 8bits at 60p.
The issue I reported is for 4K RGB Full (always 4:4:4) 12bits at 23/24/25/30p. This is when the JVC forces YCC 4:2:2 internally, and that’s incorrect. At these refresh rates, 12bits is entirely legal and part of the HDMI specs, and within the 18gb/s bandwidth, so there is no reason for the JVC to force YCC4:2:2, especially as it doesn’t report so in the info screen and reports RGB 12bits. This is what it should accept and display at these refresh rates.

[AVSMike]

Thanks Mike.
i don’t think they have fully read/understood the report.
Of course 4K60p can’t be output in 12bits. The driver never sends 4K60p in 12bits, it reverts automatically to 8bits when 60p content is played if 12bits is selected by default. You can’t select 12bits for a 4K60p refresh rate anyway, the driver only accepts 8bits at 60p.
The issue I reported is for 4K RGB Full (always 4:4:4) 12bits at 23/24/25/30p. This is when the JVC forces YCC 4:2:2 internally, and that’s incorrect. At these refresh rates, 12bits is entirely legal and part of the HDMI specs, and within the 18gb/s bandwidth, so there is no reason for the JVC to force YCC4:2:2, especially as it doesn’t report so in the info screen and reports RGB 12bits. This is what it should accept and display at these refresh rates.

Have passed this info on. I think JVC is following the problem now.

[chrisf16]

Well, after ordering at the first of October, I finally received my RS2000 on Wednesday evening. I opted for the "ship straight from the port" shipping and was surprised to see that it was still placed in a second box with giant bubble-wrap around the manufacturer's box. As a result, the outer box was unmarked, no "fragile", no "this side up". I walked out to the UPS truck where I was pleased that the driver had already put the hand truck out to bring it up to my house. However, due to no markings on the box he brought it out of the truck to the dolly by "rolling" it end-over-end on its side . The good news is, after I got it opened up, there was no shipping damage and the styrofoam wasn't even cracked.

I am a first-time projector owner coming from a nearly 20 year-old 3-gun CRT RPTV, the Pioneer Elite PRO-610HD (1080i). Granted, it was about the best picture of that generation and thanks to optics cleaning and calibration is still amazing for that technology. But let me just say, the RS2000 right out of the box on my 120" 2.41 scope Stewart ST100 screen using the Paladin DCR is MIND BLOWING! It has firmware 1.21 and I have been following this thread and that "other" owner's thread since the beginning but I can't tell what the update fixed (it still has yellow on some low APL shots like credits). There is no DI noise, I can hear the filter move in and the High Lamp fan noise is definitely loud enough to hear in quiet scenes but my setup is bright enough that I have switched to low lamp for HDR.

My startup time is around 50 seconds to the D-ILA logo. Warmed up convergence only needed 1 pixel blue vertical. I have it ceiling-mounted at 15' in a bat cave, dedicated home theater (flat black and dark grey SW paints). I use an Oppo 203 and have only made a couple settings adjustments based on tips I've been reading. I tried to be serious all day Thursday and only do setup and adjustment tasks but once you start a good content clip it's hard not to just sit down and watch it.

I will eventually do my best to do some DIY calibration (have a Spyder 5 and a cheap lux meter) but when the wife saw the picture the first time she immediately invited friends for movies Friday night! This machine was totally worth the wait.

Just wanted to check in here and negate the negative trolling that happened recently.

[AVSMike]

Well, after ordering at the first of October, I finally received my RS2000 on Wednesday evening. I opted for the "ship straight from the port" shipping and was surprised to see that it was still placed in a second box with giant bubble-wrap around the manufacturer's box. As a result, the outer box was unmarked, no "fragile", no "this side up". I walked out to the UPS truck where I was pleased that the driver had already put the hand truck out to bring it up to my house. However, due to no markings on the box he brought it out of the truck to the dolly by "rolling" it end-over-end on its side . The good news is, after I got it opened up, there was no shipping damage and the styrofoam wasn't even cracked.

I am a first-time projector owner coming from a nearly 20 year-old 3-gun CRT RPTV, the Pioneer Elite PRO-610HD (1080i). Granted, it was about the best picture of that generation and thanks to optics cleaning and calibration is still amazing for that technology. But let me just say, the RS2000 right out of the box on my 120" 2.41 scope Stewart ST100 screen using the Paladin DCR is MIND BLOWING! It has firmware 1.21 and I have been following this thread and that "other" owner's thread since the beginning but I can't tell what the update fixed (it still has yellow on some low APL shots like credits). There is no DI noise, I can hear the filter move in and the High Lamp fan noise is definitely loud enough to hear in quiet scenes but my setup is bright enough that I have switched to low lamp for HDR.

My startup time is around 50 seconds to the D-ILA logo. Warmed up convergence only needed 1 pixel blue vertical. I have it ceiling-mounted at 15' in a bat cave, dedicated home theater (flat black and dark grey SW paints). I use an Oppo 203 and have only made a couple settings adjustments based on tips I've been reading. I tried to be serious all day Thursday and only do setup and adjustment tasks but once you start a good content clip it's hard not to just sit down and watch it.

I will eventually do my best to do some DIY calibration (have a Spyder 5 and a cheap lux meter) but when the wife saw the picture the first time she immediately invited friends for movies Friday night! This machine was totally worth the wait.

Just wanted to check in here and negate the negative trolling that happened recently.

Don't do anything with autocal yet. JVC needs to work on autocal. 

[riddle]

Yes, autocal for now is broken...

[Manni]

Have passed this info on. I think JVC is following the problem now.

Thanks Mike.

A bit more info on the RGB 12bits issue:

YCC444 12bits has the same issue. It should be a valid mode in 23, 24, 25, 29 and 30p, but YCC422 is also forced internally, even if the INFO screen reports RGB 12bits.

Interestingly I have checked with the Maestro and the content sent by the GPU is indeed RGB 12bits, so it looks like it's something that the JVC does once it receives the content, so clearly not related to a bandwidth issue.



Regarding the yellowing/blooming when the DI is enabled, I am making some progress with this as well.
I wasn't able to reproduce this when using my UB900 outputting HDR (BT2020,PQ) either in RGB or YCC 12bits.

I only get the yellowing/blooming with the HTPC if the source does the tonemapping (SDR BT2020 or DCI-P3, power gamma calibration in the JVC). If I set the HTPC to passthrough and send HDR to the JVC, using the same HDR calibration used by the UB900 sending HDR, most of the blooming/yellowing goes away. The iris setting is the same in both cases (fully open). The DI is set to Auto2.

This is not madVR/HTPC specific as people are reporting the issue with an XBOX (though you could consider this a HTPC of sort). I'm trying to identify exactly what the XBOX is sending and which calibration the JVC is using, but I haven't been able to extract the exact information yet. It would be interesting to see if no one reports this issue with a standalone player. Kris Deering apparently couldn't reproduce with his RS3000, and I'm guessing he was using a standalone player, a UB9000 I think.

I am trying to get more info from users who are seeing the issue, until you confirm that JVC can reproduce the issue and will fix it.

@Dylan, I know that you are seeing this on your rs2000, I assume you are using madVR as a source. Please could you do three things to help pin this down:

1) if you set madVR to HDR passthrough instead of using the pixel shader tonemapping, and if you select a HDR calibration in the JVC (BT2020, PQ) with the manual iris set to fully open, is the blooming/yellowing reduced/does it go away? Please can you report your colorspace, bit depth, colorimetry, SDR/HDR reported by the INFO screen on the JVC when you see the issue and when you don't?
2) If you have a standalone UHD Bluray player, please could you try to reproduce as well, and let us know whether the issue is there or not, as well as reporting the same info (colorspace etc)?
3) If you have an XBOX, can you try as well and report the info?

I'm using the UHD Bluray of Lucy as the blooming is very visible just after 00:01:30, after the LUCY title, when the picture comes out of black. The water at the centre of the screen goes from a yellow blob to its expected color over a few seconds when the DI is enabled. There is no issue whatsoever with the DI disabled, irrespective of the source. If you're not using Lucy, please report title and exact timecode where you see the issue.

Anyone observing the issue, please report source, colorspace, colorimetry, bit depth, HDR/SDR reported by the JVC INFO screen and calibration used (SDR/HDR, gamut, gamma) so we can try to pin this down and help JVC to reproduce and fix.

Same if you don't see the issue. All the info above will help to see if there is a specific situation that triggers the issue.

Please always use Auto2 and iris fully open when testing, to make sure you don't miss the issue when present.

Thanks!

[AVSMike]

Have reported the above to JVC.

[Manni]

Have reported the above to JVC.

Thanks Mike.
I'll post additional info to help JVC reproduce once I've gathered more data.

[chrisf16]

I have a noob question that Manni could probably answer quickly (and might be better in the calibration thread):

I have been glued to my RS2000 since I installed it 5 days ago. I made a few of the recommended adjustments and started watching lots of sample clips and test disks/files. It is phenomenal IMHO. After a day or so I decided to put in the Spears and Munsil disk to at least see if I had brightness and contrast setup well. Then I got to the "gamut test" pattern and it was failing all of the tests where I should see a darker square in the middle of the color squares. I had my Oppo 203 set to pretty much auto everything and it was sending various levels of YCC up to 4:4:4 (which my JVC info reports always as "YUV" which I'm presuming is another name for YCC?).

I decided to force other colorspaces and only when I choose "RGB Video" as the output does the gamut test pass (showing a few, not all, of the darker squares). My question is, is the RGB 12 bit that the JVC is reporting a better signal for the projector input? What is preferred? Are there limitations to using RGB instead of YCC? (ok, multiple questions..)

Regular content, both SDR and HDR still look totally amazing btw...

[Manni]

Hi Chris,

I don't use or trust the filters, so maybe someone else can comment on this.

However, if you select the correct gamut/gamma/calibration in the PJ settings (see recommended settings in the calibration thread), they track very well, so I wouldn't worry about this if there is nothing off in the picture.

Re colourspace, there is a bug (reported to JVC) with RGB 12bits (and YCC444 12bits) that converts it internally to YCC422 even at 30p and below, which isn't desirable nor correct. Hopefully this will get fixed in a future f/w update.

If your consumer source (i.e. non-HTPC) allows you to select YCC444  10 or 12bits for 23p content and automatically switches to 422 or 8bits with 4K60p, then I would use that. That's what I do with the UB900 (YCC444 Auto, which selects 12bits 444 for 30p and down, and 12bits 422 otherwise, so that the content stays within the HDMI bandwidth limitations).

Otherwise, I would select YCC422 12bits as it works for all refresh rates within the 18gb/s of HDMI 2.0x.

I would only use RGB with an HTPC, or if you confirm with chroma patterns that it gives you better results than YCC.

If you have any further calibration related question, yes please post it in the calibration thread.

If it's about user settings, here is fine.

Glad to hear you're enjoying your rs2000, I'm enjoying mine too!

[chrisf16]

Thanks for the reply Manni.

I'm back to the YCC auto settings and now that I studied a lot of content I can see that is better than the RGB mode. I noticed that in RGB any content with saturated reds looked oversaturated. It was like red celluloid was cut out and superimposed onto the red objects in the scene. Really fake looking reds. When I put it back to the YCC, the reds looked saturated but very natural.

This afternoon I finally sat down and watched the UHD/HDR 2001 disk. I mean, just WOW! I bet the folks at the 1968 premier didn't have as good an experience!

[Manni]

Dylan, are you okay? I hope you're only enjoying the rs2000, the way it should be

By the way, I tried MPC-BE and it played the correct playlist with most of the UHD Bluray folders I dropped in, so it might be better than MPC-HC in this area (one example where ongoing development to support new formats might help). You might want to try it.

I also have figured out why River was hit and miss with UHD Bluray menus: it needs copyback for the UHD menus to work most of the time. If you use D3D11 native (which tends to be faster especially for measuring files with MadVR), it fails displaying the menus most of the time. With copyback, it's fine almost 100% of the time, which makes sense as UHD Bluray playback relies on a software implementation.

I hope we'll hear more from you and your rs2000 soon.