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JVC Autocal Software V12 calibration for 2019 RS1000/RS2000/RS3000/NX5/NX7/NX9

Is there no way to have two different Rec2020 color profiles to use the color filter? I have my Rec2020 setup for MadVR and I was going to try the new DTM settings which I assume uses the default Rec2020 with filter when you set it to wide color space , but there doesn't seem to be a way to make a custom color profile that has the filter engaged to keep separate for other profiles?

EDIT: Solved, Had to make a custom color profile in Autocal :)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 11:01:23 AM by grendelrt »

Manni

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Is there no way to have two different Rec2020 color profiles to use the color filter? I have my Rec2020 setup for MadVR and I was going to try the new DTM settings which I assume uses the default Rec2020 with filter when you set it to wide color space , but there doesn't seem to be a way to make a custom color profile that has the filter engaged to keep separate for other profiles?

EDIT: Solved, Had to make a custom color profile in Autocal :)
Yes, and if you make a custom color profile for madVR, I would highly recommed to use DCI-P3 rather than BT2020, that doesn't give you anything with our models (unless yours does reach beyond DCI-P3, which few do).

When you make a custom color profile via autocal, does it automatically become calibrated as long as it matches the same modes that have already been calibrated?

What I mean is that I notice when you autocal rec709 for instance, autocal adjusts the primary color points to line up with the reference gamut pretty well.

Does that mean if I make another custom color profile for rec709 will it retroactively get the calibrated gamut points that the projector already has from the earlier autocal?

Does the new rec709 based custom color profile acquire the calibrated gamut primaries, or does it start out with stock color points and needs to be calibrated after it's created?

I hope that question makes sense.

Yes, and if you make a custom color profile for madVR, I would highly recommed to use DCI-P3 rather than BT2020, that doesn't give you anything with our models (unless yours does reach beyond DCI-P3, which few do).

So I have 72 nits available for DCI-P3 filter.  Would you still recommend I create a 3DLUT for DCI-P3 or just do one for BT.709?

Manni

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So I have 72 nits available for DCI-P3 filter.  Would you still recommend I create a 3DLUT for DCI-P3 or just do one for BT.709?
It depends if you're in low lamp or high lamp. If you're in high lamp, you don't lose much with the filter (around 10%) so I would definitely use it, especially as you use madVR which gets the best out of every nit.

If this is in low lamp, you might find that no filter gives you a bit more brightness, which might translate into more saturation. But you still want to target DCI-P3, even if without a 3D LUT, rather than Rec-709. Unless a DCI-P3 LUt gives you too much posterization and you can't get results good enough after the autocal without a 3D LUT, there is no reason to target rec-709, as you can still get 90% of P3 without the filter. That's more than rec-709, so why waste that portion of the wider gamut just because you prefer not to use the filter?

With the progress in dynamic tonmemapping, I'd use the filter, get the wider gamut and the better contrast, but that's subjective. Try both and decide which one you prefer.

It depends if you're in low lamp or high lamp. If you're in high lamp, you don't lose much with the filter (around 10%) so I would definitely use it, especially as you use madVR which gets the best out of every nit.

If this is in low lamp, you might find that no filter gives you a bit more brightness, which might translate into more saturation. But you still want to target DCI-P3, even if without a 3D LUT, rather than Rec-709. Unless a DCI-P3 LUt gives you too much posterization and you can't get results good enough after the autocal without a 3D LUT, there is no reason to target rec-709, as you can still get 90% of P3 without the filter. That's more than rec-709, so why waste that portion of the wider gamut just because you prefer not to use the filter?

With the progress in dynamic tonmemapping, I'd use the filter, get the wider gamut and the better contrast, but that's subjective. Try both and decide which one you prefer.
This is in low lamp that I get 72 nits with DCI-P3.  I'd prefer to not run in high lamp due mainly to fan noise but also lamp wear.  This is because in low lamp I can get 91 nits with no filter (HDR color profile).
Also worth mentioning, I get 74 nits with BT2020.

So, given that, are you saying I should still use BT2020 color mode (74 nits) with a 3DLUT targeting DCI-P3 rather than Rec-709?
Sorry, little confused in how your recommendation translates into specifically what I need to do in the JVC menu + DisplayCAL 3DLUT creation menu.

You also say even without a 3DLUT I should target a DCI-P3 - where in the menus do I specifically accomplish that?  Is that on the madvr calibration screen where it says "my display is calibrated to..."?

Also, as an aside, I ran a whole 65x65 3DLUT in DisplayCAL overnight, and once completed I couldn't actually find the .3dlut file it should have created.

Manni

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There is no point in using a BT2020 baseline if you target DCI-P3 with madVR. Use the DCI-P3 profile, and run a 3D LUT  targeting DCI-P3 from that baseline. A BT2020 profile will only cause posterization in your case.

To target DCI-P3, simply select any user mode and select the DCI-P3 color profile. It will use the filter.

Or if you use the new DTM mode, select the mode with the filter. I haven't installed/tested this yet, I was abroad all week.

Please ask your questions about DisplayCAL in a DisplayCAL forum, this is the Autocal thread :)

Manni

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Report on Autocal V12 and Spyder X
« Reply #412 on: October 12, 2019, 03:46:25 PM »
I've done some tests with Autocal V12 and the Spyder X (Pro, there is no benefit buying the Elite unless you want to use the Datacolor software, which wouldn't make sense with these projectors). I followed the JVC instructions and positioned it facing the screen, about 30-40cm away (12-15"), angled up so that it would read the centre of the screen without reading its shadow. Here are my observations:

1) The Spyder X is about twice as fast as the Spyder 5, as expected. I went from around 10mn for a 33-point gamma+color autocal to less than 5 min.

2) I had no problems reading the lowest gamma steps, even in SDR with the iris set to -12 (65nits). I would advise anyone have issues to follow the usual advice, which is to do gamma with the iris fully open, then color at the relevant iris settings. If you can't read the lowest steps (i.e. values at zero for some colors during measurements), then zoom the picture down for gamma calibration. In my case, the results were just as good as with the Spyder 5 Pro / V11, but it took half the time for all calibrations. I checked 6 steps near black and the results were identical to the Spyder 5's.

3) The bad news is that my specific unit was not usable for color. Not only would it cause a loss of brightness (from 115 nits to 105nits) as it was overcorrecting the color temp unnecessarily, but the greyscale / RGB balance was completely wrong when checked with my Discus trained to my i1pro2, especially in the upper half, up to 8dEs at 100% white. The issue was the same with rec-709 (no filter) and DCI-P3 (filter). Of course the Spyder X thinks it has nailed it. A color only pass with the i1pro2 recovered all the brightness and nailed the RGB balance. The Gamma curve was near perfect, so the benefit of the Spyder gamma autocal was intact. I just won't use it for color.

4) I am suspicious that it might not be the Spyder's fault but a bug in the autocal, as I don't see why the unit would be accurate at lower IREs and would progressively become less accurate. I have seen other reports with a similar pattern, so hopefully it's the software and not the meter.

5) I'll confirm this when the Spyder X is supported by Calman. I was told today that it wouldn't take long, and I'd rather wait than waste time with Lightspace.

Overall, I recommend the Spyder X (Pro, no need for the Elite) if you want a faster meter to do your gamma calibrations. I did four of them in 20 minutes instead of 40 minutes, that's a significant difference. As I only use the Spyder for gamma, I'm very happy with the speed improvement and the fact that it can be used facing the screen, so it's a keeper.

However, if you were hoping for more accuracy and to be able to use it for color, it's either still a lottery (8dE at 100% white, far worse than without using it) or there is a bug in the software. 

The good news is that if you use the Spyder X for gamma and the i1pro2 for color, you get a near perfect calibration that barely needs a 3D LUT.

I quickly tried the DTM, it's a clear improvement compared to the previous static tonemapping, but it still needs some adjustments per title. It's also far from being as good as madVR, especially with the significant improvements brought by the most recent test builds, so I won't spend much time testing this at the moment.

Unfortunately, the yelllowing and blooming of the highlights in HDR (iris fully open) was still there, even without madVR, using the JVC DTM, and the double chroma upscaling issue is still present.

So I kept my usual settings: -12, low lamp DI on for SDR (65nits), and iris open, low lamp, DI off for HDR (115nits).

Both provide a stunning picture. Hopefully at some point JVC will resolve the yellowing and blooming, in the meantime the black level and contrast in low lamp is still excellent, even with the DI disabled. I watched the UHD bluray of Avengers Endgame to test my calibration and the picture was spectacular.

Completely agree. Times were impressive. I really thought that there was something wrong it went so fast compared to the Spyder5.

After gamma and a color calibration with the i1Pro2 (EFI2k) I am more than very happy with the results. As of now, I am forgoing the 3DLUTs as I am quite pleased with this incredible easy and fast Autocal system. Great job JVC.

As far as the DTM, yes, MadVR is still king. But since you can't use it (MadVR) for Netflix or Amazon Prime or any other streaming it will do just fine for now. Heck I would say it is about 80-90% of the way there for streaming stuff. Now I just have to decide if I want to use my Shield for streaming or my HTPC. But that's a whole different thread.

Hi Manny,

thanks for your post, very good even though not encouraging because of bad results with SpyderX calibrating the color. Hope it is a software issue.

However I would like to understand one thing that both the manual and people that are using the JVC Autocal always mention:
  • even if another Picture Mode has been selected, the calibration result for Gamma is reflected if the setting values of Lamp Power and Filter are the same. (having selected Option: individual)
  • even if another Picture Mode has been selected, the calibration result for Color is reflected when the settings of Aperture, Lamp Power and Filter are the same
Is that true also when using a different color space and gamma curve? For example, if I calibrate a color profile based on BT.709 gamut + 2.2 gamma, did I get also profiles using BT.2020 gamut + HDR gamma correctly calibrated as long as aperture, lamp power and filter are exactly the same? The manual does not state it clearly.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 04:02:43 AM by CyberPaul »

Manni

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Yes, the above is correct. If you don’t change filter, lamp mode or iris setting, the calibration remains valid even if you change the gamut, gamma or color temp (provided both gamma and color autocal were done with these lamp, iris and filter settings.)

If you select “apply to all” for gamma, then a single gamma calibration applies to all settings, irrespective of iris, lamp or filter.

Posting my findings and questions here for the new firmware v3.1. These observations are from a friend's JVC N7 that I previously calibrated on previous firmware with Spyder 5 for gamma and iPro2 for color. I have not used the new autocal yet. Its a HTPC madVR on 126" 16:9 setup.
1) Appears there is no method of selecting a color profile in the new Frame Adapt DTM picture mode. In other words, the auto color calibration may not have an effect on Frame Adapt DTM picture mode. My same color temperature (RGB gain/ offset) custom setting was off compared to my old High Lamp HDR auto cal picture mode at Iris 0 setting, so I don't believe it carries over any color calibration data. Using same Iris 0 setting for the new Picture mode, so it should be carrying over if its supported? In the instructions for the new calibration software, it states 'Calibration does not work when Picture Mode has been set to Frame Adapt HDR. Set to another Picture Mode.'  Manni, can you confirm?
2) Does gamma calibration carry over to the new Frame Adapt Picture mode?
3) Experienced an issue with black crush on the new firmware with the new Frame Adapt Picture mode. I had to set Brightness to 16 to resolve all detail to code 64, confirmed with Masciola's Black Clipping patterns. This is not a problem on the SDR Auto Calibration picture mode after firmware upgrade, only the new Frame Adapt Picture mode. I didn't check my old HDR Auto Cal mode after firmware upgrade for black crush, will reply later.
4) May have discovered a bug. Brightness was auto set to -50 on my SDR Auto Cal Picture mode after the update and after playing around with the Color Temperature in the Frame Adapt HDR Picture mode. I had to set back to 0 to resolve all detail down to 16.
5) HDR Level set to High clipped too many details in the high contrast areas, and saturation was off. Clipping of details in highlight areas was seen in 2001 rotating ships in space. Passengers movie is a good saturation test because the skin tones are already oversaturated. Also BR2049 Vegas scene appears overly yellow compared to other picture modes. It would be great for have others to validate these scenes on their setup. Settled on HDR Level = Medium, Iris = 0, High Lamp, Auto 2 Aperture.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 04:51:42 AM by Amon »

Manni

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Re the questions above:

1) You can't run an autocal of the Frame Adapt DTM picture mode, but if you calibrate any mode using the same gamut (not sure if they use DCI-P3 or BT2020, but it might be DCI-P3 which would explain why your previous calibration didn't translate as you most likely used BT2020) and iris, lamp and filter mode. I would try to calibrate a user mode with DCI-P3, iris open, filter and lamp set as in the DTM color profile, and it should automatically calibrate DTM.

2) Gamma calibration should carry if you use the same filter and lamp mode.

3 and 4 sound like you have the wrong levels set in your source or in the PJ. There is no way you'd need that much adjustment on brightness, so I would correct this first.

5) Switch the DI off in HDR (especially with the iris fully open) if you want to keep highlights or if you want to avoid yellowing issues, unless you have an rs3000. The DI blooms highlights and this is visible in any title where you have bright objects against a dark background, so there are many scenes in 2001 where this is visible. If you still have the issue with the DI off, then try to see if selecting low in the DTM option helps. There is no blooming of highlights here (RS2000) with the DI switched off.

Re the questions above:

1) You can't run an autocal of the Frame Adapt DTM picture mode, but if you calibrate any mode using the same gamut (not sure if they use DCI-P3 or BT2020, but it might be DCI-P3 which would explain why your previous calibration didn't translate as you most likely used BT2020) and iris, lamp and filter mode. I would try to calibrate a user mode with DCI-P3, iris open, filter and lamp set as in the DTM color profile, and it should automatically calibrate DTM.
Wait, you just told me that gamut is not relevant. ;)
I would also say I’m pretty sure that DTM is using BT.2020 when filter is set to wide, not DCI. Because DCI requires that you have a source able to generate a DCI signal, not available on common sources like BD players or TV Boxes.
When filter is set to normal and in case of N5/RS1000 I assume it uses HDR instead.

Manni

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Wait, you just told me that gamut is not relevant. ;)
I would also say I’m pretty sure that DTM is using BT.2020 when filter is set to wide, not DCI. Because DCI requires that you have a source able to generate a DCI signal, not available on common sources like BD players or TV Boxes.
When filter is set to normal and in case of N5/RS1000 I assume it uses HDR instead.
Gamut is not relevant for gamma, it is relevant for color.
You need BT2020 when the source sends HDR and you display HDR, because no consumer source will send P3.
But if you tonemap HDR content sent by the source to SDR with a VP (or, in this case, the PJ), you can tonemap to any gamut you want: BT2020, P3 or rec-709. This is what madVR does, what the Radiance Pro does, and possibly what the DTM does. I haven't tested it, but it's not impossible that the DTM tonemaps the the native gamut of the PJ, which is P3, not BT2020.
You were talking about an N7. If an N5, it will not use the filter, but it could still tonemap to anything it wants, rec-709, P3 or BT2020. P3 would still make a lot more sense, because even without the filter these PJs cover more than rec-709.
HDR (whether HDR10 or HDR) means PQ gamma. This doesn't apply to DTM, which tonemaps to SDR, most probably to 2.2 or 2.4.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 06:24:22 AM by Manni »

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