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JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #1665 on: November 20, 2018, 05:50:22 AM »
Checked this tonight. If I use the test pattern on the S&M disc with the Panasonic UB900 it does add obvious ringing to the stripes on the left side. If you take chroma sharpness down you can eliminate the ringing, but it destroys the chroma resolution in the upper frequencies.

If I tried the Oppo 205 it was fine. I fed this through my Radiance Pro (4:2:2 out of the Oppo and out the Lumagen, as per Lumagen's recommend setup) and no issues at all. Resolution patterns looked fine and no ringing.

I would also think the XBOX, OPPO or Pioneer would be the best BD/UHD player to feed a Lumagen, would be interesting if you could share the Lumagen Pro chroma loss, if its identical to the previous models or different, if it have game mode, try flip that on off with the S&M chroma multiburst, and ill think you see some Panasonic effect, on the older Lumagen it boosts chroma and adds a slight ringing with game mode on.

I prefer 422 in 422 out game mode off and accept the moderate chroma loss in my Lumagen processors.
I can imagine that the -4 chroma sharpness with the Panasonic, adding some chroma loss in the player plus whats in the Lumagen will be a bit dull to look at.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 05:59:44 AM by stridsvognen »
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #1666 on: November 20, 2018, 08:16:51 AM »
It has equal effect on 1080P and UHD, i set chroma sharpness to -4 with all content. But with 1080P upscaled to UHD it also adds luma ringing, so there you also need to take the luma sharpness down on both settings. I know there has been some recomendation to set edge correction to 1 for BD to UHD upscaling, however that just remove some ringing and introduce another.
If playing with the S&M chroma multiburst you should start checking straight out of the player to the display, no processing if possible, so eshift off, and go turn things on off and adjust see how it behaves. Just be carefull not to put to much attention to 1 specifik pattern, use multiple patterns to make sure you dont introduce distortion or artifacts in other type of content.

Yes, I had picked up on the luma sharpening artifact for upscaling 4K.  Lately for BD, I've just been using 1080p to get native pass-thru.  I will take a closer look at that chroma pattern tonight.  I do know all of the patterns I looked at before were better with 1080p versus upscaling, but I never tried adjusting the chroma sharpness control.

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #1667 on: November 20, 2018, 08:46:22 AM »
I use these setting for upscaling 1080P to UHD.
Using the S&M disc to set luma sharpness ill recomend using the sharpness pattern, the luma multiburst and luma zone plate. try set edge correction to 1 and see how the sharpness pattern cleans up, then go to the luma zone plate and see how it introduces heavy ringing on that one.


« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 08:53:17 AM by stridsvognen »
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #1668 on: November 20, 2018, 09:44:25 AM »
I would also think the XBOX, OPPO or Pioneer would be the best BD/UHD player to feed a Lumagen, would be interesting if you could share the Lumagen Pro chroma loss, if its identical to the previous models or different, if it have game mode, try flip that on off with the S&M chroma multiburst, and ill think you see some Panasonic effect, on the older Lumagen it boosts chroma and adds a slight ringing with game mode on.

I prefer 422 in 422 out game mode off and accept the moderate chroma loss in my Lumagen processors.
I can imagine that the -4 chroma sharpness with the Panasonic, adding some chroma loss in the player plus whats in the Lumagen will be a bit dull to look at.

The new Radiance doesn't have a game mode, but there is no issue with ringing. I'm fine with the limitation of 4:2:2 though, reduces bandwidth requirements, enables 12 bit to the display and all the other benefits I'm getting from the Radiance (LUT calibrations for SDR and HDR, tone mapping, scaling, etc.).
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Sound and Vision

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #1669 on: November 20, 2018, 09:51:45 AM »
The new Radiance doesn't have a game mode, but there is no issue with ringing. I'm fine with the limitation of 4:2:2 though, reduces bandwidth requirements, enables 12 bit to the display and all the other benefits I'm getting from the Radiance (LUT calibrations for SDR and HDR, tone mapping, scaling, etc.).

How do it pass the high bandwidth chroma/ how bad is the chroma roleoff with the radiance Pro in comparison to running the player directly to the display.?
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #1670 on: November 22, 2018, 09:29:26 AM »
As Kris mentioned before, at this point in time, you really need proper tone mapping to get a great looking image from UHD Blu-ray on a projector. I suspect the Lumagen Pro is out of reach for most people. A very cheap (relatively) solution would be to use madVR for UHD blu-rays. You could piece together a PC powerful enough for around $500-$600. I suspect the chroma upscaling (and resolution upscaling) that madVR uses is better than what can be found on the Lumagen Pro. madVR has the unfair advantage of having a much more powerful processing solution than what is inside the Lumagen. If I lived closer to Kris I'd invite myself over and we could do a little shootout. :)

If there was enough interest, I'd be more than happy to build HTPCs for people who've never done it before.

What UHD drive are you using in your computer?

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #1671 on: November 22, 2018, 01:52:58 PM »
Chad B calibrated it for me, not sure exactly what he uses to be honest.  I saw it last weekend watching Hotel Artemis.  It's loaded with instances from start to finish. 

I attached a log from Chad's calibration.  he uses 7500K to color from for HDR he said and created a custom 2020 profile so to not engage the color filter I believe.

Hotel Artemis is a 4K movie but it is not HDR or 2020 color. So you’re artifacts are probably due to using the wrong picture setup with this disc. Just FYI.
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Sound and Vision

AVSCraig

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Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #1672 on: November 22, 2018, 03:51:14 PM »
Hotel Artemis is a 4K movie but it is not HDR or 2020 color. So you’re artifacts are probably due to using the wrong picture setup with this disc. Just FYI.

Like the " Brawl in Cell Block 99 " 4K Blu-ray ? Interesting.
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Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #1673 on: November 23, 2018, 01:44:47 PM »
Like the " Brawl in Cell Block 99 " 4K Blu-ray ? Interesting.

Correct. I still do have the Artemis 4K release, but I saw someone did the dump on the disc info and it is 4K 709 non-HDR. So if you were using a mode you had setup for HDR, it should obviously look really weird (from not only the gamma but the wider color gamut).
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Sound and Vision

AVSCraig

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Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #1674 on: November 23, 2018, 02:42:27 PM »
Correct. I still do have the Artemis 4K release, but I saw someone did the dump on the disc info and it is 4K 709 non-HDR. So if you were using a mode you had setup for HDR, it should obviously look really weird (from not only the gamma but the wider color gamut).

Watching " Brawl In Cell Block 99 " on my RS4500, it uses the Rec 709 color space. It looks good. I'd expect Artemis to do the same.

Sort of odd they did the movie in Rec 709 and not HDR. Wonder why ?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 02:46:05 PM by AVSCraig »
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Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #1675 on: November 23, 2018, 09:25:54 PM »
Correct. I still do have the Artemis 4K release, but I saw someone did the dump on the disc info and it is 4K 709 non-HDR. So if you were using a mode you had setup for HDR, it should obviously look really weird (from not only the gamma but the wider color gamut).

Wow. I never bothered to even check the color space that was being fed to the projector.   I was using the SDR conversion on my UB820 so I just automatically select the SDR 2020 setting Chad calibrated for me.  I feel pretty stupid now.  Thanks for the information!
JVC RS4500 projector/LG 65B7P/LG 55B7P/ Pannasonic UB900/Oppo 203/Oppo 103D/Apple tv 4K
St 130 138" scope screen
Marantz 7704 /Integra DTA 70.1
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Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #1676 on: November 25, 2018, 05:05:26 PM »
No problem. They don't make this stuff easy, so it is inputs like yours that make it easy for others to not make the same mistake. This is one of only a couple 4K releases out there that are not in HDR/2020, so easy mistake to make! This should be viewed in the same picture mode you view normal Blu-ray movies in!
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Sound and Vision

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #1677 on: December 06, 2018, 06:58:00 PM »
As Kris mentioned before, at this point in time, you really need proper tone mapping to get a great looking image from UHD Blu-ray on a projector. I suspect the Lumagen Pro is out of reach for most people. A very cheap (relatively) solution would be to use madVR for UHD blu-rays. You could piece together a PC powerful enough for around $500-$600. I suspect the chroma upscaling (and resolution upscaling) that madVR uses is better than what can be found on the Lumagen Pro. madVR has the unfair advantage of having a much more powerful processing solution than what is inside the Lumagen. If I lived closer to Kris I'd invite myself over and we could do a little shootout. :)

If there was enough interest, I'd be more than happy to build HTPCs for people who've never done it before.

I don't understand the love for MadVR.  When you use an HTPC running MadVR you get a constant dropping of frames because video cards can't do the exact frame rate necessary for 24 fps.  It's soooo annoying.
JVC-RS4500 4k projector, Lumagen Pro, ST130 138" scope screen,
Panasonic DMP-UB900 & Plex Media Server
Classe SSP-800, Bryston amplification, Wilson Audio speakers (7.2) + Buttkickers.

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #1678 on: December 06, 2018, 06:59:35 PM »
Went back and viewed a few scenes of Hotel Artemis and changed some of the gamma settings and color profiles and the noise I was seeing appears to be related to the very high saturation of this particular film as you mention above.  There is a scene in the beginning when Jodie Foster answers a phone sitting up in her bed with a lamp on next to her and the whole scene is low APL w/ lots of red tones.  When I switched from Chad's custom gamma to HDR the reds still looked over saturated, but a lot of the shadow detail was gone.  In the scene part of Jodie Foster's bed is in the bottom left corner and when I switched out of the custom gamma to the HDR gamma the pattern on her bed cover completely disappears and the entire scene gets significantly darker.   It's a testament to Chad's abilities as a calibrator when you A/B the work he does for you. 

Kris thanks for your help and you can buy Hotel Artemis UHD copy on amazon for $21.00, it seems as though it's loaded with torture material.  It's not a bad movie either if you like John Wick type plot lines.

Are you sure that Hotel Aremis is in HDR? I thought I'd read that it wasn't.

Edit: reading through the thread I see this was already addressed, sorry.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 07:03:12 PM by Madfloyd »
JVC-RS4500 4k projector, Lumagen Pro, ST130 138" scope screen,
Panasonic DMP-UB900 & Plex Media Server
Classe SSP-800, Bryston amplification, Wilson Audio speakers (7.2) + Buttkickers.

Re: JVC RS4500 (native 4K laser projector)
« Reply #1679 on: December 06, 2018, 07:04:20 PM »
Just for fun & curiosity, what's everyone's hour meter at?  I'm at 1200...
JVC-RS4500 4k projector, Lumagen Pro, ST130 138" scope screen,
Panasonic DMP-UB900 & Plex Media Server
Classe SSP-800, Bryston amplification, Wilson Audio speakers (7.2) + Buttkickers.

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