AVS Discussions

AV Science => CEDIA 2019 => Topic started by: AVSCraig on September 15, 2019, 04:08:30 PM

Title: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSCraig on September 15, 2019, 04:08:30 PM
JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots - 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSCraig on September 15, 2019, 04:10:42 PM
More - the menus show the settings - 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSCraig on September 15, 2019, 04:13:17 PM
Some other new features coming in the new firmware update ( RS3000 - 165" diagonal Stewart StudioTek 130 screen )-

Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: David Vaughn on September 15, 2019, 06:18:37 PM
WOW...the third picture in the first post shows all I need to see.  I can't wait to see this in action!
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: claw on September 15, 2019, 09:52:21 PM
This is amazing  I did not expect to see such an improvement with Dynamic Tone Mapping (photo 1 in first post and three in second) compared to Auto Tone Mapping (photo 4 in first post and 2 in second).

I had convinced myself not to upgrade from my RS500 but now I am wondering how to make it work.
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSMike on September 16, 2019, 05:51:23 AM
This is amazing  I did not expect to see such an improvement with Dynamic Tone Mapping (photo 1 in first post and three in second) compared to Auto Tone Mapping (photo 4 in first post and 2 in second).

I had convinced myself not to upgrade from my RS500 but now I am wondering how to make it work.
Yes, it was easily and clearly a big improvement on these tough scenes. You did not have to study the picture to see a difference. The difference was huge between no tone mapping and DTM. The difference was still pretty big between auto tone mapping and DTM on these tough scenes.
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: claw on September 16, 2019, 06:43:58 AM
I don't recognize those scenes.  What title are they from?   Or are they part of the JVC demo disc?
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: Tom Bley on September 16, 2019, 07:50:21 AM
I don't recognize those scenes.  What title are they from?  Or are they part of the JVC demo disc?
I believe Craig said, The Meg.
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSMike on September 16, 2019, 08:39:31 AM
Yes, from the Meg. My iphone did not do a good job capturing the image. Craig's camera did a much better job. Pretty cool that JVC gave us a private demo, so that we could see and photograph the differences. Just us and the JVC guys in the room. 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSCraig on September 16, 2019, 09:44:10 AM
Folks that are disappointed JVC didn't have new projectors this year are not realizing how good this added feature can make HDR look. It's like having a new model - and even existing owners get the benefit, which is great. And Anamorphic D mode. Arguably this is as good an improvement as going from the RS400/500/600 to the 420/520/620 was. :)   
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: Dylan Seeger on September 16, 2019, 12:02:18 PM
JVC is already so far ahead of both Sony and Epson in terms of image quality and features, I don't understand why people are upset that no new models are coming out. Is it a laser light source that they want? Surely these people must understand that adding a laser would increase the MSRP quite a bit. Probably more than most are willing to spend at the moment. 

I'm excited to test this new firmware when it comes out next month. From what I saw at CEDIA it looks like it's going to perform well. Honestly, if it's pretty close to madVR, I may be ditching my HTPC setup and going with something a little less cumbersome to use, like an nvidia shield. 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: David Vaughn on September 16, 2019, 12:32:23 PM
Frankly, JVC has done good by its customers by releasing this "update" for free. They could have easily came out with new models with the only change being the DTM firmware and screwed last year's buyers over. But given the long wait times, they did the right thing by skipping a year and giving us buyers a lot more value for our money. Way to go JVC!
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: Dylan Seeger on September 16, 2019, 01:18:53 PM
Agreed. I'm sure this update has Lumagen and madVR a little pissed now that frame adaptive tone mapping is included as a built in feature. 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: David Vaughn on September 16, 2019, 03:12:40 PM
That's an understatement! 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSCraig on September 16, 2019, 03:41:33 PM
Agreed. I'm sure this update has Lumagen and madVR a little pissed now that frame adaptive tone mapping is included as a built in feature.

It remains to be seen whether the JVC firmware works as well as the Lumagen, but most people can't afford the Lumagen or to build a HTPC with MadVR. So if it's only 75% as effective, it's still going to provide a better picture than not having it. And those that want to absolute best will still pony up the $ for the top accessories that provide the best picture. We won't know until it gets compared sometime later this year. So there is probably still a place for the Lumagen and the Envy. 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: ericglo on September 16, 2019, 05:30:54 PM
JVC is already so far ahead of both Sony and Epson in terms of image quality and features, I don't understand why people are upset that no new models are coming out. Is it a laser light source that they want? Surely these people must understand that adding a laser would increase the MSRP quite a bit. Probably more than most are willing to spend at the moment.

I'm excited to test this new firmware when it comes out next month. From what I saw at CEDIA it looks like it's going to perform well. Honestly, if it's pretty close to madVR, I may be ditching my HTPC setup and going with something a little less cumbersome to use, like an nvidia shield.

I think a lot of people feel that if Epson can do it at their price point then JVC should be able to offer laser for very little added cost. It will probably be years before JVC has a laser option under $10k, but people have to bitch about something.
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSCraig on September 16, 2019, 06:51:44 PM
I think a lot of people feel that if Epson can do it at their price point then JVC should be able to offer laser for very little added cost. It will probably be years before JVC has a laser option under $10k, but people have to bitch about something.

BenQ does it by stripping out all the bells and whistles like a motorized lens, lens memory, I'll guess one T.I. DLP chip is cheaper than 3 DILA chips too. I notice that Epson doesn't do laser and native 4K and all the bells and whistles I'd want. At any price. Yet. 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: venkatesh_m on September 16, 2019, 11:34:53 PM
Its interesting that they have a Frame by Frame and a Scene by Scene for their version of DTM. I believe Kris had noted that a Frame by Frame might not be ideal and the other stand alone DTMs were doing a Scene by Scene to allow for less jarring changes in tone mapping. Did they show the differences of Frame by Frame vs Scene by Scene? Would that add to a video lag compared to audio? Nevertheless, the pictures definitely show improvements on the Meg scenes compared to without any form of Tone Mapping.
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSCraig on September 17, 2019, 07:21:16 AM
Its interesting that they have a Frame by Frame and a Scene by Scene for their version of DTM. I believe Kris had noted that a Frame by Frame might not be ideal and the other stand alone DTMs were doing a Scene by Scene to allow for less jarring changes in tone mapping. Did they show the differences of Frame by Frame vs Scene by Scene? Would that add to a video lag compared to audio? Nevertheless, the pictures definitely show improvements on the Meg scenes compared to without any form of Tone Mapping.

It was hard to see any difference using Frame by Frame vs Scene by Scene. But I would need a lot more demo material and time to really test the differences. 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: Tom Bley on September 17, 2019, 08:17:04 AM
It was hard to see any difference using Frame by Frame vs Scene by Scene. But I would need a lot more demo material and time to really test the differences.
It's great to hear that they give you the option of frame by frame OR scene by scene though. 8)
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: Dylan Seeger on September 17, 2019, 11:11:45 AM
It remains to be seen whether the JVC firmware works as well as the Lumagen, but most people can't afford the Lumagen or to build a HTPC with MadVR. So if it's only 75% as effective, it's still going to provide a better picture than not having it. And those that want to absolute best will still pony up the $ for the top accessories that provide the best picture. We won't know until it gets compared sometime later this year. So there is probably still a place for the Lumagen and the Envy.

Another thing to factor in is that the Lumagen and Envy do quite a bit more than just tone mapping. madVR especially has the best video upscaler that I've personally seen. The Envy will also auto-detect black bars and scale the image appropriately on an anamorphic screen. It can also detect the aspect ratio of the video and automatically trigger a lens memory. And a million other cool features relevant to home theater projector users. So, even if it gets most of the way there in terms of tone mapping, these other video processors can do a lot of other things. 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSCraig on September 17, 2019, 11:50:02 AM
Another thing to factor in is that the Lumagen and Envy do quite a bit more than just tone mapping. madVR especially has the best video upscaler that I've personally seen. The Envy will also auto-detect black bars and scale the image appropriately on an anamorphic screen. It can also detect the aspect ratio of the video and automatically trigger a lens memory. And a million other cool features relevant to home theater projector users. So, even if it gets most of the way there in terms of tone mapping, these other video processors can do a lot of other things.

Agreed. I love the auto aspect ratio detection on the Lumagen too. And the scaling is top notch. There will always be a place for good video processors .
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: Tom Bley on September 17, 2019, 11:55:56 AM
There will always be a place for good video processors .
Exactly, and right now that seems to be for the rich. :o ;D
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: Clark Burk on September 17, 2019, 11:57:35 AM
Did you happen to notice any pumping of the tone mapping or a lag in the tone mapping as a scene changed brightness?
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSMike on September 17, 2019, 02:34:23 PM
Did you happen to notice any pumping of the tone mapping or a lag in the tone mapping as a scene changed brightness?
No. Only thing different I saw was the improvement in the image.
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: Clark Burk on September 17, 2019, 03:35:47 PM
Thanks Mike
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSMike on September 18, 2019, 06:49:07 AM
Thanks Mike
If I did not already own a Lumagen, I would be jumping up and down anxiously waiting for this new firmware. :) 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: Michael Stiff on September 18, 2019, 08:01:39 AM
If I did not already own a Lumagen, I would be jumping up and down anxiously waiting for this new firmware. :)
I've recently been darn close to executing the purchase of a Lumagen. I'll now be waiting to experience this FW. As a previous post mentioned, there are other desirable features in a processor and in the end they may be the factors that result in my purchasing a Lumagen. But like Dave V. said, this is a mighty big value add to the product and its $0 cost to current owners (I've a NX7) is a pretty big solid by JVC. 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: Sittler27 on September 18, 2019, 09:14:49 AM
If I did not already own a Lumagen, I would be jumping up and down anxiously waiting for this new firmware. :)
Same for me, but instead where I already own a madvr setup.

Looking forward to leveraging for my ATV4K
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSMike on September 18, 2019, 10:11:59 AM
Same for me, but instead where I already own a madvr setup.

Looking forward to leveraging for my ATV4K
Except there is a big difference. My solution does HDR tone mapping for all HDR sources.
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: SED --- Rules on September 18, 2019, 10:17:22 AM
Wow, what a difference the DTM makes!  This is definitely big news for projector enthusiasts.  And plus it's free to all owners...great job JVC.
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: Jbarteli on September 18, 2019, 11:01:05 PM
Will this also work with games, does this create a lot off lag?
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSCraig on September 19, 2019, 08:47:33 AM
Will this also work with games, does this create a lot off lag?
I am told no additional lag vs. regular.  Just leave the projector in Low Latency mode. Of course you still have regular HDR10 with Auto Tone Mapping to use too. 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: SED --- Rules on September 19, 2019, 10:44:17 AM
I am told no additional lag vs. regular.  Just leave the projector in Low Latency mode. Of course you still have regular HDR10 with Auto Tone Mapping to use too.
Will video games benefit from JVC's DTM?  I see you answered his question about the lag, but not if the HDR will improve with video games, not just movies.  Thanks!
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSCraig on September 19, 2019, 12:27:56 PM
Will video games benefit from JVC's DTM?  I see you answered his question about the lag, but not if the HDR will improve with video games, not just movies.  Thanks!
I don't know. You'll have to try it or ask a gamer that has a new JVC to try it. I don't game myself. 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSMike on September 19, 2019, 12:56:17 PM
Will video games benefit from JVC's DTM?  I see you answered his question about the lag, but not if the HDR will improve with video games, not just movies.  Thanks!
If the game is HDR, then yes, it will improve the image.
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: randman on September 20, 2019, 12:25:20 PM
In the photos, such as the Dynamic Tone Mapping photos (photo 1 in first post and three in second), the lamp was in high mode. How would the pictures compare if the lamp were in low mode? Are the benefits of using Dynamic Tone Mapping (versus not using it) relatively similar if lamp is in low brightness mode?
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSCraig on September 20, 2019, 02:41:24 PM
In the photos, such as the Dynamic Tone Mapping photos (photo 1 in first post and three in second), the lamp was in high mode. How would the pictures compare if the lamp were in low mode? Are the benefits of using Dynamic Tone Mapping (versus not using it) relatively similar if lamp is in low brightness mode?
One reason they were using high lamp is that the screen there is 165" diagonal. That's pretty big. 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSMike on September 20, 2019, 08:22:16 PM
In the photos, such as the Dynamic Tone Mapping photos (photo 1 in first post and three in second), the lamp was in high mode. How would the pictures compare if the lamp were in low mode? Are the benefits of using Dynamic Tone Mapping (versus not using it) relatively similar if lamp is in low brightness mode?
You would still have the same differences in low lamp, if shown on a smaller screen. 165" screen is a little large for using low lamp. :)
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: randman on September 22, 2019, 07:24:23 PM
You would still have the same differences in low lamp, if shown on a smaller screen. 165" screen is a little large for using low lamp. :)

Ok, good to know. I’m hoping 106” screen with 11.5’ throw distance would be fine with low lamp (don’t want to hear the fan in high lamp mode).
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSMike on September 23, 2019, 06:38:49 AM
Ok, good to know. I’m hoping 106” screen with 11.5’ throw distance would be fine with low lamp (don’t want to hear the fan in high lamp mode).
On that size screen, you would be able to use low lamp.
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: Sir Dagonet on October 01, 2019, 11:50:18 AM
I hope this is not an ignorant question...

Is the DTM likely more/less/about the same effective than using a Panasonic UB9000 for HDR tone mapping? I have a JVC RS-520...
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: randman on October 01, 2019, 12:54:31 PM
I hope this is not an ignorant question...

Is the DTM likely more/less/about the same effective than using a Panasonic UB9000 for HDR tone mapping? I have a JVC RS-520...
I don’t know the answer to this question (I have the Panasonic 820 so I’m interested in this question too), but one advantage of DTM built into the projector is that it would be useful for other (non-Panasonic) sources like Apple TV 4K, etc.
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSCraig on October 01, 2019, 01:34:29 PM
I hope this is not an ignorant question...

Is the DTM likely more/less/about the same effective than using a Panasonic UB9000 for HDR tone mapping? I have a JVC RS-520...

No. Everything other than the Lumagen, MadVR or this new firmware is a fixed tone mapping solution - even if the UB820 or 9000 adjusts per title. Dynamic tone mapping adjusts the tone mapping per scene ! 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: Sir Dagonet on October 01, 2019, 02:25:50 PM
No. Everything other than the Lumagen, MadVR or this new firmware is a fixed tone mapping solution - even if the UB820 or 9000 adjusts per title. Dynamic tone mapping adjusts the tone mapping per scene !
AAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Adjusts per scene... now I understand... thanks...

Two follow-ups:

1.  Will the firmware be available for the RS-520?
2.  If so, then would I want to leave HDR Optimiser turned off with the Panasonic? 

Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSCraig on October 01, 2019, 02:48:25 PM
AAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Adjusts per scene... now I understand... thanks...

Two follow-ups:

1.  Will the firmware be available for the RS-520?
2.  If so, then would I want to leave HDR Optimiser turned off with the Panasonic?
No - only the RS1000 / 2000 / 3000 and NX5 / 7 / 9. And maybe the RS4500 in the future. 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: timlaw on October 09, 2019, 12:45:49 AM
the firmware is now available for version 3.10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AMPsl3HidE

very helpful video from JVC USA om installation and settings for frame adapt

Tim 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSMike on October 09, 2019, 06:18:17 AM
I hope this is not an ignorant question...

Is the DTM likely more/less/about the same effective than using a Panasonic UB9000 for HDR tone mapping? I have a JVC RS-520...
It will do slightly better and that is assuming the metadata was correct on the disc or streaming. If the metadata is wrong, then DTM will do a lot better.

Added
The slightly better was referring to how auto works on the current RS1000, 2000 and 3000. It will be a lot better than what you get with the RS520, since it works with all sources.
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSMike on October 09, 2019, 06:20:56 AM
AAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Adjusts per scene... now I understand... thanks...

Two follow-ups:

1.  Will the firmware be available for the RS-520?
2.  If so, then would I want to leave HDR Optimiser turned off with the Panasonic?
1. No. That projector is several generations old. I do not know if it is even capable of doing this, but regardless, JVC is not going to add it. 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: randman on October 09, 2019, 08:07:53 AM
Just got my RS1000 recently. I was just reading the PDF document posted in the past about how to setup the Panasonic UB9000 and JVC to work together with tone mapping. I have the Panasonic UB820. Now that JVC’s new firmware is out, I assume that I can just ignore that old PDF (assuming that using the new JVC firmware is better than what the UB820 can do... I also have other HDR sources like Apple TV 4K). 

So, any tips on how to configure the Panasonic UB820 (and Apple TV 4K) to work with the new firmware?



Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: Baseball0618 on October 09, 2019, 11:30:46 AM
Just got my RS1000 recently. I was just reading the PDF document posted in the past about how to setup the Panasonic UB9000 and JVC to work together with tone mapping. I have the Panasonic UB820. Now that JVC’s new firmware is out, I assume that I can just ignore that old PDF (assuming that using the new JVC firmware is better than what the UB820 can do... I also have other HDR sources like Apple TV 4K).

So, any tips on how to configure the Panasonic UB820 (and Apple TV 4K) to work with the new firmware?
I can't remember if the UB820 has  source direct mode or not like the Oppo, if it doe select that.  But just do not turn the HDR optimizer on the in the UB820.  For the apple TV just set the video output to match range and frame rate. 
Title: Re: JVC HDR Tone Mapping Screen Shots
Post by: AVSMike on October 09, 2019, 12:02:36 PM
Just got my RS1000 recently. I was just reading the PDF document posted in the past about how to setup the Panasonic UB9000 and JVC to work together with tone mapping. I have the Panasonic UB820. Now that JVC’s new firmware is out, I assume that I can just ignore that old PDF (assuming that using the new JVC firmware is better than what the UB820 can do... I also have other HDR sources like Apple TV 4K).

So, any tips on how to configure the Panasonic UB820 (and Apple TV 4K) to work with the new firmware?
Just use the new DTM. It is a better solution for HDR.
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