AVS Discussions
Movie and TV Discussion => Movie reviews => Topic started by: Barry on June 11, 2023, 07:37:32 PM
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I have enjoyed MOST of the first real phase of the Marvel Universe, ending with Avengers Endgame. But I have not greatly enjoyed most of the movies that have come after, nor have I been enamored with their TV shows.
Looking over the titles, I began to wonder why. And I discovered a trend. But please don’t tell anyone, I’ll get letters! Of course, the original (and successful comics) are mostly about men.
In the beginning, the Marvel Movie Universe was very much men conquering evil. But it began to turn and now very much feminine. Iron Man fought alone, but had a girlfriend. The Hulk and Ant-Man fought alone and had girlfriend.
Then came Captain Marvel, a woman. I knew him as Walt Larson.
We then get the Black Widow. The Doctor Strange movie was more about the Scarlet Witch than anything else. Thor Love and Thunder was about Jane (Natalie Portman) who did most of the fighting. The Eternals and Guardians of the Galaxy had more female members than male. The Ant-Man got a partner, the Wasp. And in his last movie, there were three Wasps and the youngest girl, his daughter was the hero. In fact, the last X-Men movie was about Jean Grey and little about anyone else.and the new Black Panther is a woman.
The Marvel TV Universe is very female. Wanda Vision, then Hawkeye is now a Woman, followed by She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel. Even “What If” had a woman become the new Captain America who was also featured in the last Dr. Strange movie).
The just announced that the new Captain Marvel movie will have only a multi female super hero cast.
I did like some of the recent movies. The last Spider-Man, with three Spider-Men was great. And I liked Captain Marvel and Shang Chi. Don’t get me wrong, I love Hayley Atwell, Brie Larson, Scarlett Johanson and Michelle Pfeffer. I am just not in love with the current movies and TV shows.
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I have enjoyed MOST of the first real phase of the Marvel Universe, ending with Avengers Endgame. But I have not greatly enjoyed most of the movies that have come after, nor have I been enamored with their TV shows.
Looking over the titles, I began to wonder why. And I discovered a trend. But please don’t tell anyone, I’ll get letters! Of course, the original (and successful comics) are mostly about men.
In the beginning, the Marvel Movie Universe was very much men conquering evil. But it began to turn and now very much feminine. Iron Man fought alone, but had a girlfriend. The Hulk and Ant-Man fought alone and had girlfriend.
Then came Captain Marvel, a woman. I knew him as Walt Larson.
We then get the Black Widow. The Doctor Strange movie was more about the Scarlet Witch then anything else. Thor Love and Thunder was about Jane (Natalie Portman) who did most of the fighting. The Eternals and Guardians of the Galaxy had more female members then male. The Ant-Man got a partner, the Wasp. And in his last movie, there were three Wasps and the youngest girl, his daughter was the hero. In fact, the last X-Men movie was about Jean Grey and little about anyone else.
The Marvel TV Universe is very female. Wanda Vision, then Hawkeye is now a Woman, followed by She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel. Even “What If” had a woman become the new Captain America who was also featured in the last Dr. Strange movie).
The just announced that the new Captain Marvel movie will have only a multi female super hero cast.
I did like some of the recent movies. The last Spider-Man, with three Spider-Men was great. And I liked Captain Marvel and Shang Chi. Don’t get me wrong, I love Hayley Atwell, Brie Larson, Scarlett Johanson and Michelle Pfeffer. I am just not in love with the current movies and TV shows.
Barry, you're lucky this is a safe space or else they would be picketing outside your home with pitchforks :D
I don't disagree with your take one bit. You hit the nail on the head.
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Right on, Barry!
The moment that really stuck out to me was the girl-power scene in Endgame. It's not that women can't get together and fight, just that it was handled in such a clunky, pandering, and condescending manner. My wife and I both groaned as it happened. After that, women became an ever-greater focus in the stories, to the exclusion of men.
And it's not just Marvel, it's happening across all entertainment, and feels forced rather than organic.
I watched a presentation for upcoming Xbox games earlier today, and the majority featured female characters.
There's nothing wrong with having female heroes, but one has to wonder what the reason is for the sudden imbalance. Judging by the box office results, it doesn't seem to be producing additional profits.
Scott
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Barry, you're lucky this is a safe space or else they would be picketing outside your home with pitchforks :D
I don't disagree with your take one bit. You hit the nail on the head.
100% and 100% lol
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I have enjoyed MOST of the first real phase of the Marvel Universe, ending with Avengers Endgame. But I have not greatly enjoyed most of the movies that have come after, nor have I been enamored with their TV shows.
Looking over the titles, I began to wonder why. And I discovered a trend. But please don’t tell anyone, I’ll get letters! Of course, the original (and successful comics) are mostly about men.
In the beginning, the Marvel Movie Universe was very much men conquering evil. But it began to turn and now very much feminine. Iron Man fought alone, but had a girlfriend. The Hulk and Ant-Man fought alone and had girlfriend.
Then came Captain Marvel, a woman. I knew him as Walt Larson.
We then get the Black Widow. The Doctor Strange movie was more about the Scarlet Witch then anything else. Thor Love and Thunder was about Jane (Natalie Portman) who did most of the fighting. The Eternals and Guardians of the Galaxy had more female members then male. The Ant-Man got a partner, the Wasp. And in his last movie, there were three Wasps and the youngest girl, his daughter was the hero. In fact, the last X-Men movie was about Jean Grey and little about anyone else.
The Marvel TV Universe is very female. Wanda Vision, then Hawkeye is now a Woman, followed by She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel. Even “What If” had a woman become the new Captain America who was also featured in the last Dr. Strange movie).
The just announced that the new Captain Marvel movie will have only a multi female super hero cast.
I did like some of the recent movies. The last Spider-Man, with three Spider-Men was great. And I liked Captain Marvel and Shang Chi. Don’t get me wrong, I love Hayley Atwell, Brie Larson, Scarlett Johanson and Michelle Pfeffer. I am just not in love with the current movies and TV shows.
My wife feels exactly the same way, so this isn't just a "male" issue.
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I'll lead with something my most frequent movie going companion observed after the Harley Quinn Birds of Prey movie a few years ago: it proved that women could make a sexist movie too. Now we regularly have women who are half the size of competent, trained men, physically overpowering them.
It's obviously been a major trend in movies & TV for years now, to the extent that I looked at a swath of "genre" shows that were on or coming out a couple of years ago and the large majority were female leads. To some extent I guess it's compensating for the very small amount of such roles for decades, and as with anything there are good and bad examples. The stuff where I just bail immediately is when they can't resist not just empowering the women, but also diminishing men. The Amazon Wheel of Time series started out that way in the first 10-15 minutes and that was enough for me.
I remember as a teen reading a story by James Tiptree Jr called "Houston, Houston, Do You Read?" where an all male crew of astronauts ends up returning to Earth centuries later - somewhat similar to Plant of the Apes. In this case, men have died out or been exterminated and the all women society is greatly superior. But that wasn't enough - the men were all depicted as depraved, sex obsessed stereotypes, too violent and primitive to be allowed to live. (One of the male characters ends up acknowledging & legitimizing this view.) I knew instinctively the author wasn't a man, and years later found out that was the case as Tiptree Jr. was a pseudonym for Alice Sheldon. It actually won the top 2 SF awards, the Hugo & Nebula, in 1976/77. Seemed like an aberration then but it wouldn't surprise me if it got picked up for a series now.
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Black Widow was aimed at women yet men watched it more than women.
from hollywoodreporter (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/black-widow-disney-revenue-game-changer-1234980611/),
"Black Widow was frontloaded at the domestic box office and fueled by fanboys (males made up 58 percent of ticket buyers)."
She-Hulk and Ms Marvel also didn't do well.
from bleedingfool (https://bleedingfool.com/news/dead-on-arrival-disneys-ms-marvel-sets-mcu-record-for-least-viewers/),
Disney+’s Ms. Marvel is setting record-low viewership stats for Marvel Studios ... Ms. Marvel was watched by a mere 775K households in the U.S; being the first Marvel Cinematic Universe series to not provide at least a million viewers.
Best Marvel go back and focus on their male audience!
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I liked Black Widow, other than the fact it came out in the wrong order, seeing as it's a origin story. I really liked Captain Marvel too - there are some great laugh out loud moments. I can't be bothered to watch any of the shows though. No loss IMO. Also, I've never read a comic book in my life.
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Star Wars has gone this way. In fact tons of Hollywood has too
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I liked Captain Marvel. Some of the criticism on this topic goes way too far and rejects any and every female empowerment, which I definitely don't agree with either. As usual these days we have entrenched extremes on both ends. I think most of us want a good story with characters that make some kind of sense and don't feel like they're just being created as pages from someone's therapy session / diary.
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David was right when he said, "Barry, you're lucky this is a safe space or else they would be picketing outside your home with pitchforks." I posed this o a Facebook pagve and was totally insulted, no one aaddressed the issue. I was also told that I did not know the comics from which these were taken.
Again, I really enjoyed Captain Marvel and, for that matter, the first Wonder Woman movie. But I enjoy very little of the Disney Streaming shows.
Rather than give women new platforms, Hollywood seems to be taking old platforms and recycling them. The originak Ghostbusters Movie was great it jhad new ideas and things I had never seen before. Then they remake it using four VERY and talented funny women and there is nothing new. They deserve better. Why not give them a new platform. They did the same thing wioth movies such as Overboard, Karate Kid, Whar Men Eaht, Oceans 11 or 8, and even the TV show Equilizer. Give these women something new!!!!!!
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The 2 recent Ghostbusters movies are a great example in comparing and contrasting female lead roles. Answer The Call had some great talents, actresses I have enjoyed as comedians elsewhere, but it just didn't come together well. Writing or directing, some combination, but it seemed to constrain them. Maybe it was a bit too much of a straight recreation instead of something new, as Barry alluded to. But Afterlife was WAY better - and it had a young female lead who was fantastic.
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The 2 recent Ghostbusters movies are a great example in comparing and contrasting female lead roles. Answer The Call had some great talents, actresses I have enjoyed as comedians elsewhere, but it just didn't come together well. Writing or directing, some combination, but it seemed to constrain them. Maybe it was a bit too much of a straight recreation instead of something new, as Barry alluded to. But Afterlife was WAY better - and it had a young female lead who was fantastic.
I liked Afterlife too! Again, the young woman had a orignal role. I want to see more originality, not copies.
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David was right when he said, "Barry, you're lucky this is a safe space or else they would be picketing outside your home with pitchforks." I posed this o a Facebook pagve and was totally insulted, no one aaddressed the issue. I was also told that I did not know the comics from which these were taken.
This is part of the problem. Instead of having a rational discussion about your observations, any such talk is shut down. Often times the person mentioning it is branded as harboring some kind of prejudice, so that anyone that might want to express a similar opinion is cowed into silence.
I love that they told you that you don't know the original material. What ignorance.
I'm grateful that a discussion like this can be had in this forum by sticking to the points, without having to disparage anyone's character.
Scott
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This is part of the problem. Instead of having a rational discussion about your observations, any such talk is shut down. Often times the person mentioning it is branded as harboring some kind of prejudice, so that anyone that might want to express a similar opinion is cowed into silence.
I love that they told you that you don't know the original material. What ignorance.
I'm grateful that a discussion like this can be had in this forum by sticking to the points, without having to disparage anyone's character.
Scott
This is one of many reasons why I stopped using Facebook almost 2 years ago. The main impotence was seeing the documentary "The Social Dilemma." (https://www.thesocialdilemma.com/) If you can stay on Facebook after watching what evil that company performs, more power to you. I suspended my account the next day and haven't been back.
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This is one of many reasons why I stopped using Facebook almost 2 years ago. The main impotence was seeing the documentary "The Social Dilemma." (https://www.thesocialdilemma.com/) If you can stay on Facebook after watching what evil that company performs, more power to you. I suspended my account the next day and haven't been back.
I have zero interest in Facebook and not a member but might use it occasionally to look up things like local restaurants that us it in place of having an actual website. My wife uses it, but only to post things for her friends, and weeds out anyone that has gone off the deep end.
Social media is certainly a component in all of this, but it doesn't help that legitimate news and trade outlets are picking up on those twisted narratives and reporting them without a critical eye. At that point, it gains awareness with the public and starts to be accepted as fact, with only the most superficial of details being communicated.
Scott
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My friend I referenced earlier is also fond of saying we get the "x" we deserve - politicians, media, etc. We vote, we click we make choices and it drives and skews what we are offered. Not all choices are as informed as we'd like because the world is too complex to know even a fraction of what we'd like to, and info is frequently hidden or distorted for various reasons, mostly short term financial in some way. Much of this seems to me just scaled up versions of what's happened for most of human history.
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Eh. I use Facebook as an ongoing class reunion. I am still in touch with all my friends from high school 30 years later. That and it’s a memory reminder
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My friend I referenced earlier is also fond of saying we get the "x" we deserve - politicians, media, etc. We vote, we click we make choices and it drives and skews what we are offered. Not all choices are as informed as we'd like because the world is too complex to know even a fraction of what we'd like to, and info is frequently hidden or distorted for various reasons, mostly short term financial in some way. Much of this seems to me just scaled up versions of what's happened for most of human history.
In the show 1923 (Episode 7, if I remember correctly), there's a great moment at the dinner table where Harrison Ford speaks around this point in a historical context. I almost got up and gave him a standing ovation.
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This is one of many reasons why I stopped using Facebook almost 2 years ago. The main impotence was seeing the documentary "The Social Dilemma." (https://www.thesocialdilemma.com/) If you can stay on Facebook after watching what evil that company performs, more power to you. I suspended my account the next day and haven't been back.
Facebook is a tool - like the 18 guns I own. You can use it for positive things or not so positive. Kind of like " the other forum " which can be used to argue and belittle someone, or to exchange ideas.
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About a decade ago, I was on a Yahoo list for professionals that Yahoo closed down. The group went to Facebook and that is how I got there.
The good part:
Long story, but I have a cat that has hyperthyroidism and the Facebook page on that helped save her life!!! I had a bad vet that was not taking the proper steps. There are some Home theatre sites that I found interesting, and yes, a few sites about comics. Especially on the latter, I had been invited to join some sites. Of, there are a couple of sites about restaurants in my area and they have been helpful!
But over the decade I have withdrawn from MOST sites. People are often rude and insulting. You must agree with 1000% of what they say or you are a “bad” person. It’s nuts. There is never a discussion, only arguments. So I am still on a handful of sites (And Tracy is on one of them).
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Justg read that the Disnwey company will be spacing out it's rfeleases, giving more time between films:
Disney on Tuesday shuffled plans for some of its biggest franchises. Two “Star Wars” film are planned for 2026. One was pushed from December 2025 to May 2026. Another was added for December 2026. The studio hasn’t announced details on either untitled production.
The Marvel calendar was also remade Tuesday, as the studio continues to reshape its coming plans in its superhero kingdom. Most notably, “Avengers: Kang Dynasty” is being postponed from May 2025 to May 2026. That film, a pivotal release for Marvel, stars Jonathan Majors, the actor who has been charged with domestic violence (https://apnews.com/article/jonathan-majors-arrested-3ccf23bb407f5e6d2441ccc536b254f2). Majors’ attorney has denied the charges and says he’s innocent.
Other shifts in Marvel releases include most films being delayed a few months. “Captain America: Brave New World” will open in July 2024 instead of May 2024, after which comes “Thunderbolts” in December 2024, “Blade” in February 2025 and “Fantastic Four” in May 2025.
The Walt Disney Co. on Tuesday pushed the release of “Avatar 3” a year, bumping it from December 2024 to December 2025. The timeline is stretched even further for the next planned installments. “Avatar 4” is now slated to hit theaters in December 2029; “Avatar 5” is set to arrive in December 2031.
RELATED C
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Facebook is a tool - like the 18 guns I own. You can use it for positive things or not so positive. Kind of like " the other forum " which can be used to argue and belittle someone, or to exchange ideas.
Yep. I have used FB for a long time now, and have connected with old friends, coordinated groups etc. It's hard to escape some of the less savory things big data companies do these days so I get the reactions. I limit my interactions too and don't really engage in discussions due to the things mentioned where too many people have a mindset of "if you do/say/believe A then you MUST therefore also believe X/Y/Z things that are horrible and probably make you a satanist/nazi".
Then there's stuff which is clearly fake (jokes/trolls) that people lose their shit over. I kid you not, my cousin's spouse just posted some video of a "liberal" suing her parents for not asking her permission to be born, and the gullible outrage was... interesting.
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Yep. I have used FB for a long time now, and have connected with old friends, coordinated groups etc. It's hard to escape some of the less savory things big data companies do these days so I get the reactions. I limit my interactions too and don't really engage in discussions due to the things mentioned where too many people have a mindset of "if you do/say/believe A then you MUST therefore also believe X/Y/Z things that are horrible and probably make you a satanist/nazi".
Then there's stuff which is clearly fake (jokes/trolls) that people lose their shit over. I kid you not, my cousin's spouse just posted some video of a "liberal" suing her parents for not asking her permission to be born, and the gullible outrage was... interesting.
That's funny. She could give herself a " retroactive abortion " you know. I have connected with a lot of old friends on Facebook, and have and endless daily stream of snarky memes on my page for the entertainment of my friends. Plus, I run the AV Science Facebook page, read The Digital Bits page for disc reviews, follow pages about Roman history, Egypt, WWII, aircraft, guns, and hot women that are either crack shots with guns or can fire an arrow at you standing on their hands with their feet ( and nail your ass ). And the latest tally of Russian equipment ( and Russians ) wasted by Ukraine! It's informative and entertaining at times.
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Pretty good article on the decline of the MCU, and how this topic plays a big role in it in various ways:
https://www.audioholics.com/editorials/marvel-studios-mcu-how-bad-writing-defeated-superhero-movies
The point that many of the female characters basically just replaced a male character with little beyond surface level changes, and usually lacking much of a developed origin and story, really hits home. It applies in so much of the genre TV & movies - Rey in Star Wars etc.
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Pretty good article on the decline of the MCU, and how this topic plays a big role in it in various ways:
https://www.audioholics.com/editorials/marvel-studios-mcu-how-bad-writing-defeated-superhero-movies
The point that many of the female characters basically just replaced a male character with little beyond surface level changes, and usually lacking much of a developed origin and story, really hits home. It applies in so much of the genre TV & movies - Rey in Star Wars etc.
While not having to do with Marvel, my wife and I have noticed a tendency lately that in virtually every movie and TV show, when a strong female character is shown, she ends up being a lesbian or bi-sexual. Some recent examples are Star Trek: Strange New Worlds and the excellent Star Wars show, Andor. In Andor in particular, the only "real" romantic relationship they show is between two women and Mon Monthma's heterosexual relationship with her husband is anything but ideal. Regardless, why can't we have strong female characters that are feminine and heterosexual?
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While not having to do with Marvel, my wife and I have noticed a tendency lately that in virtually every movie and TV show, when a strong female character is shown, she ends up being a lesbian or bi-sexual. Some recent examples are Star Trek: Strange New Worlds and the excellent Star Wars show, Andor. In Andor in particular, the only "real" romantic relationship they show is between two women and Mon Monthma's heterosexual relationship with her husband is anything but ideal. Regardless, why can't we have strong female characters that are feminine and heterosexual?
Call me cynical, but I think part of this is primarily being done to check off certain boxes.
So, if you give character X the characteristics of both A group and B group and you've doubled the representation. I'm sure you can think of many of these modern characters that hit the trifecta of A, B, and C.
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David, I've noticed for several years that in a lot of "genre" TV shows, the primary or only relationship that had a really positive dynamic was a non-heterosexual relationship. Going back to Buffy the Vampire Slayer in the late 1990s, in fact, with Willow and Amber being the only "nice" relationship long term. Not all, of course, but in a lot of genre TV it's been a noticeable trend. One counter example (to an extent) was She-Hulk - Jennifer Walters / She-Hulk is decidedly hetero. Seems like that show got a lot of criticism and mediocre ratings but my wife & I both enjoyed it a lot.
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David, I've noticed for several years that in a lot of "genre" TV shows, the primary or only relationship that had a really positive dynamic was a non-heterosexual relationship. Going back to Buffy the Vampire Slayer in the late 1990s, in fact, with Willow and Amber being the only "nice" relationship long term. Not all, of course, but in a lot of genre TV it's been a noticeable trend. One counter example (to an extent) was She-Hulk - Jennifer Walters / She-Hulk is decidedly hetero. Seems like that show got a lot of criticism and mediocre ratings but my wife & I both enjoyed it a lot.
Now we may have to watch She-Hulk based upon your recommendation. Did you watch Andor? If so, did you like it?
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Seven of Nine of Star Trek Voyager became gay in Picard. For no reason.
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Seven of Nine of Star Trek Voyager became gay in Picard. For no reason.
I've only watched the first season of Picard...I need to watch the last two, although I'm not too jazzed to do so. Are the final two seasons any good?
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Haven't seen it yet but the 3rd season of Picard has gotten very positive reviews from every direction (friends, reviews, random internet forums) that I've seen. I'm interested but having trouble getting that far down my list of things to watch. After bailing on S1 of ST: Discovery I got turned off of current ST, although I did watch and mostly like the first ep of Strange New Worlds.
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Now we may have to watch She-Hulk based upon your recommendation. Did you watch Andor? If so, did you like it?
Haven't watched Andor yet. She-Hulk has some issues at times which may bother some more than me, but I just found it humorous and a different type of superhero show.
My main movie going friend, who I've referenced a bit here, has recently informed me that he's having to reassess my movie evaluations, lol. We've diverged a bit on some recent fare more than in the past; he greatly prioritizes thematic development and character growth in that context. So, feel free to take my recommendation with a large grain of salt.