AVS Discussions
Video Source Devices => Streaming Devices => Topic started by: Manni on March 31, 2020, 02:47:44 PM
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I did a bit of research recently because I was looking for an external box primarily to stream 4K HDR content (especially Netflix and Amazon Prime) with Atmos and frame rate match. I have most channels in my UB900 but I wanted Atmos and nothing forced to the wrong refresh rate (everything is forced to the default rate with the UB900).
So I got in house an Apple TV 4K, an Amazon FireTV Cube Gen 2 and a Shield TV 2019. :)
[EDIT July 26 2020: I put all the info on setting up a Shield TV Pro 2019 in this post (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=2460.msg17498#msg17498)].
I didn't test a Roku Ultra 2019 because 1) it doesn't support Dolby Vision, which I'd like to have for testing purposes even if I don't need it as I have an Envy Extreme in the chain. And 2) because I got one two or three times over the last few years to test specific things and every single time the performance was horrible (stutter, etc) so it went back every time. I can't remember if I tested it using Wifi or Ethernet, but I didn't like it. It's probably an interesting option if you don't need HDR10+ or Dolby Vision. [EDIT: it also looks like the Roku Ultra doesn't support Atmos with Netflix (https://community.roku.com/t5/Playback-Issues-Audio-Video-Power/Netflix-Dolby-Atmos-on-Ultra/td-p/495683), which rules it out for this comparison].
[EDIT: before suggesting another device for this comparison, please make sure that it supports Netflix and/or Amazon Prime in 4K HDR with Atmos, frame rate match and has an Ethernet port. HDR10+ or Dolby Vision is a plus, but not essential. We all know there are cheap sticks at $50 or less that have at least one of the above missing but are great if you don't care about these criteria. We have an Amazon FireTV stick in the family room and it's adequate for the price. I was looking for a streamer in the cinema room, so with the best possible picture and audio quality, primarily for Netflix and Amazon Prime, on a big screen.]
Long story short, the FTV Cube went back right away because its frame rate match feature only works in Prime, Netflix plays everything at the default refresh rate.
The Apple TV 4K also went back because it doesn't support 24.00Hz, 30.00Hz or 60.00Hz. Otherwise it's a great streamer, possibly the most refined of the three (if you can live with the remote). This bug has been widely documented in various places, but I wanted to post this comparison here to avoid dragging these discussions off-topic.
Unfortunately, the ATV forces all 24.00 content to 23.976 when match frame rate is enabled, which means that most recent Netflix Original content (and all upcoming Netflix Original content) is unwatchable (to me). I can't live with a dropped/repeated frame every 40 secs or so for The Irishman, Bird Box, Dark, etc...
The Shield has its own limitations, but with a 3rd party app called Refresh Rate (https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/shield-tv/9/297663/auto-refresh-rate-tool-google-play/) (you don't need to sideload it, it's in the Google App store now) it displays Netflix content perfectly and switches to the correct refresh rate automatically. There is also a beta feature that does more or less the same but it's not automatic (you have to select the option in settings) and it sometimes get the refresh rate wrong. Sadly I couldn't get the Refresh Rate app or the beta rate match feature to work with Prime (it caused a content protection error), but I don't really care as my priority is Netflix.
[EDIT 28-04-20: The third party Refresh Rate app also allows the Shield to switch to the native resolution of the content, as long as you set the default to 4K (Netflix Never plays a title to a higher resolution than the default). This makes the Shield the only streamer to offer a "source direct" mode, which is ideal when using an external VP such as the Envy or the Radiance Pro.
Also, I was able to use the refresh rate app on the Shield to deal with Prime and other apps not compatible with the full auto mode that works with Netflix. I simply set it to display the refresh rate when the title start playing, stop the title bring up a quick menu assigned to a button on the remote (I chose volume+) to select manually the correct refresh rate, and restart playback. It only takes a few secs and there is no guesswork involved as the refresh rate displayed by the app is correct most of the time.]
Apparently it's possible to get both Prime and Netflix to work using the Kodi add-on, but the repositories I found were buggy, so I gave up.
I attach a screenshot of my comparison table. Let me know if you spot any mistakes. [EDIT: I added a row for the Roku Ultra 2019, though I haven't tested it due to its lack of Atmos support with Netflix].
Again my focus was streaming, especially Netflix. If you are a gamer or want to passthrough lossless audio (Atmos, DTS:X) with Plex or Kodi, the Shield is for you, and if you want the Apple ecosystem, the ATV is a no-brainer.
Had the ATV 4K not had this 24.00hz bug, I'd have kept it as I preferred it overall (we have iPhones and iPads in the house, so it does make more sense to us longer term). However, right now, the Shield fits my needs better, as my priority is perfect Netflix playback.
One of the reasons why I sent the ATV back is because a new version is expected by the end of the year. Apple said that they are aware of the frame rate match issue and might fix it in TVOS14 (it's still there in TVOS 13.4).
So the plan is to get a new model in October if they have fixed this frame rate bug (and ideally provide a better remote), mostly because the ATV supports a few channels I care about (such as NowTV in the UK and Apple TV+). I don't need it to play disc content, I have my Oppo 203 clone and my madVR HTPC for that.
Otherwise I'll move the Shield to the Kids room and will get a Shield Pro, as you need the USB ports to get IR capabilities (for iRule and my Denon universal remote) using a FLIRC.
I bought the first Shield in 2015 and sent it back almost right away, it was too buggy and incomplete.
I really like the new Shield, the new remote is great and it's the best remote of the lot (backlit, nice size, many hardware buttons, "where is my remote" feature with Alexa, etc). I hated the ATV remote (too small, frustrating touchpad, not enough buttons, not backlit, etc). The only thing it had for it was that you could charge it with a Lightning port. I can't remember the FTV cube remote, but it wasn't backlit either.
Kodi works well, even tough I don't plan to use it to play my movies. I especially recommend the Embuary skin (optional add-on skin). I use MyMovies with the HTPC (along with CMC) and if you generate Kodi metadata, Kodi on the Shield picks it up and the Embuary skin supports categories as Tags. I use them extensively, so it's great to have them here.
The FTV Cube is a good player for the price, especially if you can live with the wrong refresh rate in every single app except Prime. Otherwise, it's pointless.
I honestly don't care which player you buy or use, so please no fanboy flaming from any side. I just thought I'd share the research (especially the attached table) in case it's helpful to others. Also, if you don't see any problem with the ATV with 24.00 content, you're lucky, I envy you, but that won't help those of us who do see the issue and can't live with it. :)
I've only had the Shield for a day or so, I'll update the thread after I spent a bit more time with it if I have any new info to provide. [Edited above, the Shield is the only streamer with a source direct mode, so that settles the score if you have an external VP].
Hope this helps!
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Thanks for the work. Yeah, all of them are flawed. I keep waiting for someone to get it right, but it does not seem to happen.
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I like the Roku's interface and it's speedy. Is it perfect? No, but I only paid $80 for it, so I'm not too concerned.
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I like the Roku's interface and it's speedy. Is it perfect? No, but I only paid $80 for it, so I'm not too concerned.
Hi Dave,
Does it do frame rate match with Atmos for at least Netflix and Prime? Does it not skip frames? Do you use it with ethernet?
As I said in the OP, I got one on a couple of occasions to test HLG and the performance (even without HLG) was horrible, lots of stutter, so it went back every time.
Also I decided to only test players with Dolby Vision, in case it ends up recycled in the family room at some point (and there is a new TV there!).
Which model do you have? I don’t really care about DV but I want perfect Netflix and Prime with Atmos and HDR if I test something else. At the moment, the Shield gives me perfect Netflix.
The Roku is supported by my Denon universal IR, and it has Apple TV+ and NowTV, so that would be a plus!
EDIT: I did some research and it looks like Roku doesn't support Atmos on its Netflix app (only on Vudu, Prime and Disney+), which crosses the Roku off the list. I'll happily get one in if someone confirms this has been fixed. However I've updated the title and table to include the Roku Ultra 2019.
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Manni,
I don't think it does Atmos with Netflix, but it's not a deal breaker for me in that regard. Most of my Netflix watching is TV shows, so Atmos is not a deal breaker. DSU seems to work out well on what I've watched. I do notice the occasional frame skip though, but try to ignore it :) My Mom has an Apple TV and like you, I hate the remote. It's horrible.
I looked at the Shield before buying the Roku, but read it had a lot of problems (this was 2 years ago). Someone will hopefully come out with "one box to rule them all!"
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Hi guys, I’m not interested in any stick, especially those that don’t do Atmos, don’t have an ethernet port or don’t have match frame rate at least for Netflix (for both 23.976hz and 24.00hz content, as explained).
I already have a UB900 in the cinema room and a FireTV stick in the family room that do no Atmos at 60p, there are tons of cheap sticks that do a crap job at streaming content (or a great job for the price), please let’s keep this thread on-topic. :)
Please create a new thread to compare cheap sticks if that’s what you’re into, and only post here if you find one that fits the criteria I explained in the OP (please read the first post!) or have an on-topic question regarding the streamers tested for this comparison.
Thanks!
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I have tried a Roku Ultra, Chromecast Ultra, Fire TV Stick 4K, and ATV4K.
The only one I immediately returned was the Roku; just too buggy.
I used the Chromecast up and until I purchased my ATV4K.
I purchased the Fire TV Stick so I could get Apple TV+ on my LG OLED that does not have a native Apple TV+ App available. I didn't want to purchase a second relatively pricey ATV4K when there is a new model in the works.
Even with the 24 Hz bug, I stick with the ATV4K in my theater room. Supposedly there will be a redesigned remote with the next Apple TV model.
For me, any streaming device I use must support an Apple TV+ App which the Fire Stick and of course the Apple TV4K do. There isn't a lot of content yet, but what is there is very good in my opinion. Plus, if you purchased an iPhone or other Apple device after September 1 last year you qualify for a free year of Apple TV+.
Why did you list the ATV4K as having Movies Anywhere in Low Res? Or is it just because Google movies are. For the few movies I have purchased or redeemed in Movies Anywhere I can watch them in 4K and Atmos from either the Vudu App or iTunes.
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Yes as I said I hope the ATV replacement will fix this and have a better remote, but we have only rumors for now.
Roku (any model) doesn't do Atmos with Netflix, so it's pointless. You confirm my impression of the various versions I tested over the last couple of years (didn't try the 2019).
If you don't mind the 24.00, 30.00 and 60.00 bug in the Apple TV, I agree it's the best streamer. In fact that's what I said in the first post.
Sadly, I can't stand stutter and I already have stuttery options, so the Shield fits the bill for now.
Re your question, the ATV doesn't support VP9 at all, and it doesn't support Movies Anywhere either. You have to log into Youtube to get it in your purchases, and although it upscales to 4K, it's actually 1080p content upscaled to 4K. Vudu app or iTunes only works in the US for this. You can't redeem your Movies Anywhere on these in the UK due to geo blocking. You are correct that this works for US users, but I did say that this was a UK-centric comparison, which is why you don't see Vudu in the table, as we don't have it.
I can access AppleTV on my FireTV stick or on my iPads, so that can wait.
I just refuse to pay £200 for a streamer that doesn't give me perfect Netflix and Amazon playback, because I already have imperfect playback.
The Shield isn't perfect but for £150 it gives me fully auto refresh rate for the apps fully compatible with the 3rd party app (including Netflix) and semi auto with the others (Prime for example): The app displays the refresh rate of the content, you select the correct rate in a popup (one key on the remote) and then play at the correct rate. I set my default to 50p in the UK, so almost everything is at the correct rate, except the odd show on Amazon Prime which I have to set manually. I'd rather live with that than dropped frames in Netflix with the ATV.
I wouldn't want to keep the Shield long term though, it's far less refined that the ATV, some channels are missing as I indicated (AppleTV, NowTV) and it's unstable. Today I couldn't get Google Play to download anything, I tried everything but had to restore the unit to factory defaults (the internet connection was fine otherwise). If it happens again, it's going back.
I really hope Apple will get it right by the end of the year. I can't believe that no one is able to deliver a streamer that does it right for everything. It's not that difficult, they just don't care.
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Yes as I said I hope the ATV replacement will fix this and have a better remote, but we have only rumors for now.
Roku (any model) doesn't do Atmos with Netflix, so it's pointless. You confirm my impression of the various versions I tested over the last couple of years (didn't try the 2019).
If you don't mind the 24.00, 30.00 and 60.00 bug in the Apple TV, I agree it's the best streamer. In fact that's what I said in the first post.
Sadly, I can't stand stutter and I already have stuttery options, so the Shield fills the bill for now.
Re your question, the ATV doesn't support VP9 at all, and it doesn't support Movies Anywhere either. You have to log into Youtube to get it in your purchases, and although it upscales to 4K, it's actually 1080p content upscaled to 4K. Vudu app or iTunes only works in the US for this. You can't redeem your Movies Anywhere on these in the UK due to geo blocking. You are correct that this works for US users, but I did say that this was a UK-centric comparison, which is why you don't see Vudu in the table, as we don't have it.
I can access AppleTV on my FireTV stick or on my iPads, so that can wait.
I just refuse to pay £200 for a streamer that doesn't give me perfect Netflix and Amazon playback, because I already have imperfect playback.
The Shield isn't perfect but for £150 it gives me fully auto refresh rate for the apps fully compatible with the 3rd party app (including Netflix) and semi auto with the others (Prime for example): The app displays the refresh rate of the content, you select the correct rate in a popup (one key on the remote) and then play at the correct rate. I set my default to 50p in the UK, so almost everything is at the correct rate, except the odd show on Amazon Prime which I have to set manually. I'd rather live with that than dropped frames in Netflix with the ATV.
I wouldn't want to keep the Shield long term though, it's far less refined that the ATV, some channels are missing as I indicated (AppleTV, NowTV) and it's unstable. Today I couldn't get Google Play to download anything, I tried everything but had to restore the unit to factory defaults (the internet connection was fine otherwise). If it happens again, it's going back.
I really hope Apple will get it right by the end of the year. I can't believe that no one is able to deliver a streamer that does it right for everything. It's not that difficult, they just don't care.
Manni,
I also think the low cost of these units is why no one gets it perfect for all of the apps that are available. I wouldn't think the profit margin is very large on these streaming products, right?
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Manni,
I also think the low cost of these units is why no one gets it perfect for all of the apps that are available. I wouldn't think the profit margin is very large on these streaming products, right?
These units cost £150-200. That’s enough for a decent profit margin given the numbers involved.
Plus I don’t care paying more if they get it right.
This comparison includes the top streaming devices currently available, and they are considered too expensive and “high end” by many, compared to the £30-£50 for the entry-level models (a lot less on Black Friday).
The ATV is the closest, but unless they fix that bug (it’s nothing to do unless it’s a weird hardware limitation) they are not getting my money. At least not until the end of the year, if no one else has done better.
Anyway, I’m sharing this info because none of these are perfect, and users have to compromise. It took me a lot of time to do this research, so I’ve decided to share it for those who are looking at the best possible streamer. The table should help users decide what’s most important for them and what they are (un)happy to let go. My best compromise is probably not everyone’s.
if you are happy with what you have, stay happy :)
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These units cost £150-200. That’s enough for a decent profit margin given the numbers involved.
Plus I don’t care paying more if they get it right.
This comparison includes the top streaming devices currently available, and they are considered too expensive and “high end” by many, compared to the £30-£50 for the entry-level models (a lot less on Black Friday).
The ATV is the closest, but unless they fix that bug (it’s nothing to do unless it’s a weird hardware limitation) they are not getting my money. At least not until the end of the year, if no one else has done better.
Anyway, I’m sharing this info because none of these are perfect, and users have to compromise. It took me a lot of time to do this research, so I’ve decided to share it for those who are looking at the best possible streamer. The table should help users decide what’s most important for them and what they are (un)happy to let go. My best compromise is probably not everyone’s.
if you are happy with what you have, stay happy :)
Manni, I know exactly how much work this takes and I'm sure I'm not the only one that appreciates it. You're the best!
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Certainly not the best, but the grumpiest, probably :)
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Certainly not the best, but the grumpiest, probably :)
You hitting grumpy old man early? "Get off my lawn" :)
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Thanks for the detailed comparison, Manni! :)
It's so disappointing that none of these devices can do native resolution and only one can (reliably) do native frame rate. :(
One thing I would love to see is a comparison of image quality. In theory it should be the same with all devices, after all all h264 decoders are supposed to output the exact same signal. However, sadly no source device I know supports 4:2:0 output for anything but 4K50/60 (although the HDMI & CTA spec allows 4:2:0 for any resolution and frame rate). So all these source devices almost always do chroma upscaling internally. Consequently it would be interesting to know which device uses which chroma upscaling algorithm (nearest neighbor vs bilinear vs bicubic). Also, I've been told that some source devices add banding artifacts. Potentially a source device could also screw up output levels or introduce other problems, e.g. non-defeatible noise reduction or sharpening or slightly shifted colors.
But I know, testing image quality is very difficult and time consuming, if possible at all.
One question: Do all of these devices *natively* support playing video files from USB or LAN, for the purpose of running test videos to judge image quality? I suppose it will be possible by using Plex or Kodi, but I'm not sure if those use the same playback chain as the device's native video payback engine, so running such test videos through Plex/Kodi might only tell us how Plex/Kodi look like, but not how the device's native playback engine looks like?
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Thanks for the detailed comparison, Manni! :)
It's so disappointing that none of these devices can do native resolution and only one can (reliably) do native frame rate. :(
One thing I would love to see is a comparison of image quality. In theory it should be the same with all devices, after all all h264 decoders are supposed to output the exact same signal. However, sadly no source device I know supports 4:2:0 output for anything but 4K50/60 (although the HDMI & CTA spec allows 4:2:0 for any resolution and frame rate). So all these source devices almost always do chroma upscaling internally. Consequently it would be interesting to know which device uses which chroma upscaling algorithm (nearest neighbor vs bilinear vs bicubic). Also, I've been told that some source devices add banding artifacts. Potentially a source device could also screw up output levels or introduce other problems, e.g. non-defeatible noise reduction or sharpening or slightly shifted colors.
But I know, testing image quality is very difficult and time consuming, if possible at all.
One question: Do all of these devices *natively* support playing video files from USB or LAN, for the purpose of running test videos to judge image quality? I suppose it will be possible by using Plex or Kodi, but I'm not sure if those use the same playback chain as the device's native video payback engine, so running such test videos through Plex/Kodi might only tell us how Plex/Kodi look like, but not how the device's native playback engine looks like?
Hi there!
In fact none of them does the correct frame rate with everything, the Roku had many bugs and a lot of stutter when I tested it. Maybe the 2019 version is better, but I only put it in green because I had not tested it and didn't want to make an assumption. In theory, it has frame rate match for everything. But then so does the ATV, and it clearly isn't the case when you look more closely.
Re your question, they don't have the same PQ but you have to make a distinction between media players and streamers, although these can be seen as both.
For me, the above are primarily streaming boxes, except maybe the Shield. While I expect them to deliver the correct frame rate when they advertise the feature (as do the ATV 4K, the FTV Cube, and the Roku), the PQ is in essence compromised because it's streaming. So you get a lot of compression issues, occasional stutter, all the reasons why I wouldn't use any of these boxes to play critical content. I didn't compare PQ in detail because of that, so they could very well have banding issues, but frankly that's nothing compared to the streaming artifacts that you get anyway because of the limited bandwidth. Also none of them (except the shield) are able to passthrough lossless audio, so that disqualifies them immediately as high-end mediaplayers. They only play Atmos MAT (low bandwidth for streaming) and not Atmos or DTS:X present in 1:1 rips from bluray or UHD Bluray.
The Shield is designed as a more versatile player, and it's the only one that is able to play 1:1 rips in full quality for audio and video. However, I didn't look into it in detail because I use my HTPC (with madVR :) ) or my Oppo 203 clone to play any critical content. I have zero interest in looking at PQ for mediaplayers, they all have issues with banding, stutter, etc. This is why I went for the Oppo with MyMovies as a front end. It's the best player because it's an actual standalone player, and not a mediaplayer emulating one. The HTPC is still the best source though, because the front end is better and madVR does all the chroma upscaling.
Re quality, as you say and as we have discussed many times, most consumer sources only send 4:2:0 at 50/60p, and 4:2:2 (or higher) otherwise. This is not really an issue with these streamers, because the streaming quality is the limiting factor. Anyone serious about ultimate PQ wouldn't use any of these for local/network playback anyway.
At first sight, the PQ of the Shield when playing 1:1 local files with Kodi looked excellent, but not as good as the Oppo or the HTPC. I didn't look into it in detail because I don't plan to use it as a primary source that way, but I'll comment later if I can put my finger on the reason.
The biggest downside for all of these is the lack of source direct, which is a far bigger issue than the chroma 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0, because it prevents an external VP such as the Envy or the Radiance Pro from doing the luma upscaling.
Arguably, the impact of the quality of the chroma upscaling is minimal with UHD content as the chroma layer is 1080p, and it gets more and more relevant as the resolution goes down. But when upscaling DVD or bluray content, the lack of source direct becomes a lot more visible.
For this reason, they will always be limited from a PQ point of view, compared to an Oppo 203 (or a Zapitti Pro) that offer a proper source direct mode and are able to output the native resolution of the content, even if chroma upscaling has to be 4:2:2 for non 50/60p content. The Dune HD 4K Pro can also do source direct but it has banding and/or frame rate issues.
However, the Shield has an AI Upscaling feature that is quite impressive for lower res content, up to 30p. It also has a demo mode that you should look at, because you can not only display the content side by side with it enabled / disabled, but you can also move the separation bar between the two pictures to choose which part of the picture has it enabled or disabled. I haven't had the time to look at this in detail, but I reckon that the Shield and the ATV would have the best upscaling overall (the ATV is very good, the Shield might be a bit better). Nothing at madVR/Envy level, of course, but "good enough" for compromised streaming.
All these devices support Plex (I think), but I didn't test local playback with that. I only tested Kodi for casual playback on the Shield, and it worked well. You'll have to look at the table to see which ones support USB or MicroSD. The ATV doesn't support any external storage.
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Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
I guess I was thinking of evaluating these source devices as a potential media player for *all* contents, including UHD HDR Blu-Rays etc. For that purpose of course careful image quality comparisons would be needed. But if it's "only" for streaming, you're right and things like chroma upscaling quality etc aren't really very important.
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Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
I guess I was thinking of evaluating these source devices as a potential media player for *all* contents, including UHD HDR Blu-Rays etc. For that purpose of course careful image quality comparisons would be needed. But if it's "only" for streaming, you're right and things like chroma upscaling quality etc aren't really very important.
For UHD Bluray playback, the only contender among the four devices discussed here is the Shield as the others don't do lossless audio passthrough for Atmos / DTS:X. Unless you don't care about immersive audio of course.
The Shield is a decent streamer, it has a very good upscaling with AI upscaling, and as long as you get the Pro it would probably be your favorite device as a developer. It's a very good do-it-all in one inexpensive box.
It's not as good as a dedicated player such as the Oppo 203 (Clone or jailbroken) for local/network 1:1 rips, mainly because it doesn't have source direct for lower res content, but the little I've seen it seems very decent.
I've asked Ric to check on the Zapitti Pro as it has the same chipset as the Dune HD 4K Pro, which has banding and frame rate issues. If it doesn't, it could be an alternative, but frankly (as you should know!) from a PQ point of view nothing beats a HTPC with madVR to play bluray / UHD bluray :). I've sent Ric all the info, I think if you're interested in a mediaplayer rather than a streamer or a do-it-all there are better options than the above.
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I've done more testing on the Apple TV 4K and it looks like the HDR10 Metadata it reports in Netflix when the display doesn't support DV is completely bogus.
Apparently, instead of selecting an HDR10 stream when DV isn't available, Apple converts the DV stream and "invents" static metadata, which at least in the example I looked at is bogus.
I selected Stranger Things Season 2 Episode 1 because I wanted to be also able to compare with the UHD Bluray, and there are very few titles that have both a UHD release and are on Netflix.
In that case, that didn't help because the UHD Bluray is a different master (1,000nits vs 4,000 nits).
However, I was able to compare the Shield TV 2019 and the Panasonic UB900 with the AppleTV metadata for that same title.
The Shield and the UB900 both agree and produce the same metadata: 4000/0.005nits max/min mastering brightness and 3739/832 MaxCLL/MaxFALL. These are reported both by the Envy and by the HD Fury Maestro (without the Envy in the chain).
When the ATV 4K plays the same episode, it reports:
4000/4.1248 (!) max/min mastering brightness and 927/127 MaxCLL/MaxFALL.
Also apparently for some titles the metadata keeps changing every 30 secs or so, which of course shouldn't happen with HDR10 static metadata.
So anyone relying on the HDR Metadata to select a custom curve or chose which DTM apply (as the JVC DTM does) will be thrown by the metadata reported by the ATV.
I didn't notice this when I had the ATV in house because I only tested it with the Envy, which doesn't rely on the HDR10 metadata to do its frame by frame dynamic tonemapping.
That's another big issue for the ATV, at least for those who don't have an external processor that doesn't rely on the HDR metadata to do some of its tonemapping.
I won't factor this in regarding my decision to get a new ATV when/if they fix the auto frame rate issue, but that's something to keep in mind.
The Shield has its own quicks, but it selects the HDR10 stream when the display doesn't support DV and sends the correct HDR10 metadata.
Also it selects the correct refresh rate automatically for Netflix and other compatible apps, and for Prime and other apps that don't support the 3rd party refresh rate app, you can set it to display the correct rate when you start playback, so you only have to stop playback, bring up a menu (one key) to select the correct rate, and re-start playback. Not as smooth as the ATV when it's able to select the correct rate, but far better when it isn't.
I attach some screenshots showing the HDR10 metadata for all these tests. The Shield, UB900 and HTPC show the HD Fury Maestro metadata as I was able to take these myself. As I'm still under NDA, I didn't want to post screenshots from the Envy, but trust me the HDR10 metadata reported by both is identical. To illustrate this, the HTPC also shows the madVR info as the screenshot was taken with the Envy out of the chain. I got the same results with the Envy sending HDR Passthrough from the HTPC.
The ATV screenshot was taken by LovingDVD (thanks Ric!) from his Envy as I don't have the ATV 4K in house anymore, but the Maestro would have reported the same, I double checked here with my Envy using my other sources, they always in agreement.
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I remember Kris Deering and others posting about the Apple TV giving bogus info and changing info with DV. I had forgotten about that, until your post reminded me.
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Yes, Apple does not store separate DV and HDR10 source. DV is converted to HDR10. And sometimes the conversion results in metadata values that change. Sony had to provide a firmware update to some of their projectors to deal with the changing metadata.
The variable metadata triggered the OSD from my HDfury device which was annoying. And it would sometimes result in the JVC Macros being triggered and switching my HDR10 JVC user mode between the 1000 and 4000 nit custom curves.
Now I configure the HDfury to get LLDV output from my ATV4K to my JVC RS500 instead of HDR10. Better result in my opinion and no metadata issues. Pretty much everything I watch from my ATV4K is available in Dolby Vision.
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Yes, Apple does not store separate DV and HDR10 source. DV is converted to HDR10. And sometimes the conversion results in metadata values that change. Sony had to provide a firmware update to some of their projectors to deal with the changing metadata.
The variable metadata triggered the OSD from my HDfury device which was annoying. And it would sometimes result in the JVC Macros being triggered and switching my HDR10 JVC user mode between the 1000 and 4000 nit custom curves.
Now I configure the HDfury to get LLDV output from my ATV4K to my JVC RS500 instead of HDR10. Better result in my opinion and no metadata issues. Pretty much everything I watch from my ATV4K is available in Dolby Vision.
Yes, as I said it's only an issue if you rely on the HDR10 metadata, which would be the case for example with the JVC Macro selecting a custom curve, as I mentioned. You aren't depending on this as you use LLDV with the Maestro, I'm not either because I don't need the metadata with the Envy. But it's a big drawback for the ATV for anyone who doesn't have an external solution like the Envy, or isn't technical enough to implement LLDV with an HD Fury device, so I wanted to point it out.
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I actually missed something crucial on the Shield:
The third party Refresh Rate app also allows the Shield to switch to the native resolution of the content, as long as you set the default to 4K (Netflix never plays a title to a higher resolution than the default). This makes the Shield the only streamer to offer a "source direct" mode, which is ideal when using an external VP such as the Envy or the Radiance Pro in order to make the most of the better upscaling offered by the external processor.
Also, I was able to use the refresh rate app on the Shield to deal with Prime and other apps not compatible with the full auto mode that works with Netflix. I simply set it to display the refresh rate when the title start playing, stop the title bring, up a quick menu assigned to a button on the remote (I chose volume+) to select manually the correct refresh rate, and restart playback. It only takes a few secs and there is no guesswork involved as the refresh rate displayed by the app is correct most of the time.
This makes the Shield 2019 the only streamer with a Source Direct mode (dynamic range, resolution and frame rate), fully automatic in Netflix, semi-automatic in the apps incompatible with the fully auto mode, such as Prime.
This settles the score for anyone with a high-end external VP and makes it the only streamer to get if you can live without AppleTV+ (though apparently nVidia are talking to Apple about this, so it might be added in the future). :)
I've edited the first post and the comparison table to reflect this important information.
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I'm having a bit of a weird time with that Refresh Rate app. It sort of works, but it's not without its quirks.
If I have it automatically switch the frame rate, it seems to do that correctly, but then the video is horribly juttery, like it's the completely wrong frame rate. So that's out/
If I change it manually, that does work fine, but the JVC N7 first automatically switches to HDR (assuming it's a HDR video) as it normally would on the video start, but then once I change the refresh rate it causes the N7 to switch back to SDR mode, then immediately switch back to HDR mode again, which is annoying and frankly takes long enough that i have to pause the video (on a black screen) while it does its thing.
Also, if changing the resolution manually, there doesn't seem to be a way to have the app fall back to the original (default) frame rate when the video stop, so then Netflix (or whatever) runs like a dog as it's at 24p instead of 60 (for example).
All up I'm not sure it's worth it at the moment, but it'd be nice if Nvidia just had all this work automatically like Kodi seems to easily do.
All that said, I'm currently using an older Shield and have one of the new tubes (not the Pro) arriving today, so I'll give it a crack with that.
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I'm having a bit of a weird time with that Refresh Rate app. It sort of works, but it's not without its quirks.
If I have it automatically switch the frame rate, it seems to do that correctly, but then the video is horribly juttery, like it's the completely wrong frame rate. So that's out/
If I change it manually, that does work fine, but the JVC N7 first automatically switches to HDR (assuming it's a HDR video) as it normally would on the video start, but then once I change the refresh rate it causes the N7 to switch back to SDR mode, then immediately switch back to HDR mode again, which is annoying and frankly takes long enough that i have to pause the video (on a black screen) while it does its thing.
Also, if changing the resolution manually, there doesn't seem to be a way to have the app fall back to the original (default) frame rate when the video stop, so then Netflix (or whatever) runs like a dog as it's at 24p instead of 60 (for example).
All up I'm not sure it's worth it at the moment, but it'd be nice if Nvidia just had all this work automatically like Kodi seems to easily do.
All that said, I'm currently using an older Shield and have one of the new tubes (not the Pro) arriving today, so I'll give it a crack with that.
Not the way it works here at all.
Do you have a Shield 2019? Which OS version?
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Not the way it works here at all.
Do you have a Shield 2019? Which OS version?
I don't (not yet, got one arriving today), it's a 2017 but I assumed it would work the same? All good, I'll hook up the new one tonight and give it another go :)
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I don't (not yet, got one arriving today), it's a 2017 but I assumed it would work the same? All good, I'll hook up the new one tonight and give it another go :)
I haven’t tested the 2017, only the 2015 (which was very bad, at least initially) and the 2019. Please let us know if the 2019 doesn’t behave better. At least with Netflix, the refresh rate app works perfectly here, fully automatic, both for resolution and refresh rate.
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I haven’t tested the 2017, only the 2015 (which was very bad, at least initially) and the 2019. Please let us know if the 2019 doesn’t behave better. At least with Netflix, the refresh rate app works perfectly here, fully automatic, both for resolution and refresh rate.
Ok, it finally showed up (delivery delays obviously).
It does now switch properly without any of the weird frame stutter so that’s great. The only quirk now is that when I go back to the Netflix main menu, the N7 still does the weird HDR switching dance (it turns HDR off as it should, but then for some reason turns it back on, like it thinks the Netflix menu should be in HDR (it shouldn’t).
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Great to hear that there is no issue with the refresh rate app on the 2019 Shield, that's what I experience here too. :)
I don't know about the JVC switching, I disabled it because it's too limited for my use, as I need SDR BT2020 and SDR rec-709 to be detected individually, not just "SDR". I use an HD Fury Maestro to select the correct calibration according to all content, and it's working flawlessly, including for 3D.
However, I am also using an Envy to tonemap HDR to SDR, so that might help as well, as I don't really use the Frame Adapt or HDR10 modes from the JVC. You might want to ask in the JVC thread how people deal with this, because I don't think it's specific to the Shield 2019.
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I have a Shield Pro that's on its way to me now. I should have it the middle of next week. Hopefully the stock IR codes in the URC software work and I don't have to hunt around the Internet for them. I have the USB IR dongle that will be here before the actual Shield even though I ordered the dongle two days after the Shield. It must me shipping via covered wagon ;)
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I have a Shield Pro that's on its way to me now. I should have it the middle of next week. Hopefully the stock IR codes in the URC software work and I don't have to hunt around the Internet for them. I have the USB IR dongle that will be here before the actual Shield even though I ordered the dongle two days after the Shield. It must me shipping via covered wagon ;)
I think you are going to like it! I have had one for about a week now and am very pleased with it. Unfortunately, Youtube won't do HDR on it but it will on my Roku Ultra. Being able to get Atmos on Netflix is great.
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I think you are going to like it! I have had one for about a week now and am very pleased with it. Unfortunately, Youtube won't do HDR on it but it will on my Roku Ultra. Being able to get Atmos on Netflix is great.
So far so good...now I just need to figure out how to program the IR with my URC remote. I got the HD Fury set up with it and like what I'm seeing from Netflix on the Dolby Vision titles.
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Just noticed this thread. This thread would've been useful when I was analyzing which 4K streamer to get last Fall. I wound up getting both the Apple TV 4K and the nVidia Shield TV Pro. I've always liked the Apple TV, and, being a household full of iPhones and iPads, makes using media more integrated. Overall, as a general use streaming device, I like the Apple TV the most.
However, I have a large Plex library, and realized that Plex can't play Dolby Atmos off my Plex movies with the Apple TV (although it can play Atmos from remotely streamed content; maybe Apple doesn't think there's a big market for folks with big 4k local movies). So, I got the Shield TV Pro. I use the Shield TV Pro mainly for Plex. For Netflix, I use either the Apple TV 4K or nVidia Shield TV Pro (usually the Shield for Netflix when sitting down for a long show, or Apple TV when switching around between different apps).
Note that with the Apple TV, you can teach it remote commands from a remote (such as a universal remote), and it can learn more commands than what is available in the Apple Remote (for example, all the usual playback controls). I use a universal remote (Pronto TSU9400), so it was a lot easier to setup for the Apple TV than the Shield. The 2019 Nvidia Shield TV Pro does not have an infrared receiver. In order to use a universal remote's IR, you have to get a USB adapter with an infrared receiver. I wound up getting the Flirc, which has to be setup using a PC and your chosen remote.
So bottom line is there isn't one streamer that was right for me. I have to have both the Apple TV and the Shield in my main home theater. All my other rooms (bedrooms, etc.) use Apple TV 4K only (I'm not as fuzzy as with frame rates and Dolby Atmos in these other rooms, and prefer the Apple TV overall).
In the Home Theater, I tell my wife and kids to use the Shield for certain apps (e.g. Plex and Netflix) and Apple TV for certain other apps. But unless I'm the one who boots up the system, they almost always wind up using the Apple TV regardless of what app they're using. They just want something easy to use and not worry about what to use depending on the content they plan to watch.
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Thank you for your feedback. Yes, all this has been discussed already, so nothing new :)
ATV is definitely easier to use and more stable, but the inability to play Netflix Originals correctly and the lack of source direct mode makes it a bad chose for the enthusiast, especially if you have an external VP for best PQ. Its upscaling is OK, but it's poor compared to what an Envy (or possibly a Radiance Pro) can do, especially with lower resolution content (SD/HD/Full HD). That's why I sent mine back, despite also being part of the Apple ecosystem with iOS mobile devices around the house.
The Shield Pro with a FLIRC is less easy to use, but it provides far better integration, it's currently the only streaming box able to play Netflix content at the correct refresh rate, in its native resolution, with Atmos and Dolby Vision if that's your thing. It's quirkier to use than the ATV, but the PQ is significantly better. All is controlled with an iPad/iPhone using iRule thanks to the FLIRC (I used the Popcorn Hour command set to make sure it doesn't conflict with anything I have in the room), so it's not a problem really here.
In the family room, they are happy with a Fire TV Stick, the screen is an old Panasonic Plasma that doesn't do full HD or even less HDR, and the sound is stereo :).
This thread is on AV Science, it's NOT meant for the general public. Most people are happy with the ATV, and rightly so. They don't care about the poor upscaling, and they don't see the frame drops with 24.00 content or 60.00 content. They are used to watching 24p content at 60p with a 3-2 cadence anyway, so why would they care about native 24.00 playback and frame drops/repeats in that mode every 40 seconds or so, or the poor upscaling quality?
The petition to get this lack of 24.00 / 60.00 support in the ATV fixed by Apple (https://www.change.org/p/apple-apple-please-fully-support-the-24-000-fps-frame-rate-on-the-apple-tv-4k) just passed the 100 votes ???::). Don't hesitate to add your name, but it's clearly getting no traction. Apple are aware of the issue, but it's still not fixed in TVOS 14 beta. It might be a hardware limitation, so it might be fixed in the upcoming model, but the lack of a source direct mode will still make the ATV a poorer choice for VP owners (and those whose display/PJ does a better upscaling). So for now, I'm happy with the Shield TV Pro 2019 as a streaming box.
Doing some testing currently with the new Dune 4K Pro II (new RT1619 chipset). Very promising, but that's a subject for another thread as it's not a great streaming box (Netflix limited to stereo on Atmos titles as far as I can see). Not as good as the Oppo 203 for disc based content, but it's a good mediaplayer, especially for MyMovies users as it's fully supported by the iPad/iPhone app, which can be used as a front end both for movie selection (very nice wall on iOS, nicer than the native interface), network playback to start playing the selected title and for remote control once the playback has started.
I wish someone came up with a box that does it all well, both for streaming and media player, but it looks like they focus on one or the other, and they all have irritating bugs/limitations.
For now, it looks like we have to have different boxes for different uses if we want best PQ/AQ for all content.
For those who don't care about the ultimate PQ/AQ, there are lots of boxes from dirt cheap to fairly expensive that do everything passably well, and the ATV is one of the best (and the most expensive), at least for streaming.
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I thought I'd put all the info about the Shield TV Pro 2019 in one post for easy reference so that I can link to it in the first post. These are just quick notes for experienced users as I don't have the time to write a full guide at the moment, but it should save you a lot of time and get you started fairly quickly.
General:
- Auto refresh rate only works fully with the 2019 model, not the previous models
- It works with both the "tube" version and the "Pro" version, however
- The Shield TV 2019 doesn't have an IR port, so if you want to control it (Universal Remote, iRule, etc) you need to get a FLIRC (https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Remote-Control-Receiver-Raspberry/dp/B01NBRBWS6/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&qid=1595753763&sr=8-3&srs=20596044011)
- The FLIRC needs a USB port, so the only model able to offer integration is the Pro as the "tube" doesn't have USB ports. I therefore highly recommend getting the Pro if you want to integrate it as a source in a home cinema room.
- In order to integrate with my Denon Universal remote and iRule, I decided to use the Popcorn Hour preset (02260) and I use the Popcorn Hour device in iRule too. I don't have any Popcorn Hour device, so this is to avoid any conflict with other mediaplayers I do have (Dune, HTPC, etc). If you have a Popcorn Hour device, select any other mediaplayer device that you don't have and is either supported by your universal remote or for which you do have a physical remote.
- I then used the FLIRC utility to map the Popcorn Hour IR commands (using the universal Denon remote) to the nVidia Shield Gen 2 controller.
- For iRule or similar, I used a GlobalCache IP2IR adapter (https://www.globalcache.co.uk/product/global-cache-ip2ir-itach-tcp-ip-to-ir-network-adapter-infrared/) with an IR Blaster to send the IR commands from the iPad/iPhone to the FLIRC on the Shield.
- I also have a mini BT multimedia keyboard connected to the Shield in the second USB port as it's useful when setting up etc. I used this one (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07RNCJ39B/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1), but any BT keyboard will do.
- I also use an Alexa skills with an Echo Dot I have in the cinema room to control the Shield (it also controls the lights using a Vera Plus zWave controller) when I prefer not to use the iPad/iPhone with iRule.
Here are my personal notes for setting-up and making the most of the beast, these are quick & dirty shortcuts, I'll try to revise/clarify/update when/if I find the time:
Installation:
Install all system updates, device updates and all updates in Google Play after initial set-up.
If your external VP or your display offers better upscaling that than the Shield AI upscaling (which is very good already), I suggest you use the source direct experimental feature in the refresh rate app detailed below, in order to have your VP (or display) do the luma upscaling. I also suggest in that case selecting a 422 mode to have the external VP/display do some of the chroma upscaling (422 to 444). If you have issues with the source direct (auto resolution change) feature in the refresh rate app, keep it disabled but make sure that you set the Shield to use its AI upscaling, as it's better than what most displays and some VP will offer. It will not use it by default. Don't set the strength too high or it will cause artifacts.
Various:
Enable Developer Mode: Settings/Device Preferences/About/Build -> Press OK until Developer Mode is Enabled
Display Content Info during playback: Press CTRL-8 or F8 from BT or USB Keyboard. Same to switch off.
Enable Beta Match Frame Rate Feature (the 3rd party app below works better, so don't use this unless you have issues with the Refresh Rate App): Settings/Device Preferences/System/Customize Quick Settings/Enable
Mount Network Shares: Settings/Device Preferences/Storage/Mount Network Storage
Log into the nVidia account and install/enable the Alexa Skill
3rd party Refresh Rate App:
I highly recommend you follow these links and read/watch the videos before setting up the app. It is a complex process to get it working fully automatically with Netflix, and in a semi-automatic way for all the other apps.
Link to the app in Google Store (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=mobi.bytearray.refreshrate&hl=en_GB) (you can search for it and install it from the store itself, no need to sideload it):
Link to the user manual / support (https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1105215/shield-tv/-apk-auto-refresh-rate-tool/)
Useful Youtube Video part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me810N3qR0Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me810N3qR0Y)
Link to Youtube video part 2 (due to mistake in part 1):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl8JYQxkAnE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl8JYQxkAnE)
Here are the settings/steps necessary to get it to work:
Settings/Apps/Special Apps Access/Display Over Other Apps/Refresh Rate/Enable
Settings/Device Preferences/Developer Options/Network Debugging/Enable
Settings/Device Preferences/Developer Options/Log Buffer Size/16Gb
Settings/Device Preferences/Accessibility/Refresh Rate/Enable
In Configuration/Advanced settings, set a key for OSD shortcut (I use volume Up 24) and Match Frame Rate shortcut (Volume Down 25).
Enable Experimental Auto resolution if you want source direct so an external VP/display can do the uscaling instead of the nVidia AI Upscaling. Note: this feature is experimental, it might not work all the time. Also make sure you select a default resolution that is the maximum resolution your display/PJ can handle (so I assume 4K), because the refresh rep app will never select a higher resolution than the default resolution.
Then back to the app main configuration, configure each app:
For Netflix and other apps supporting automatic refresh rate, it's fine to enable Match Content Frame Rate. I keep default switching and match frame rate hotkey off. I enable Display Video Frame Rate (which needs the Network debugging enabled).
For Amazon Prime (or any app giving a protection error with the auto frame matching), match content frame rate should be disabled, it doesn't work due to content protection. I enable the match frame rate hotkey, as well as the Display Video Frame Rate.
Tip:
Set the default refresh rate according to the refresh rate of most TV content in your country, so that you don't have to manually change refresh rate all the time. For the US, Japan etc, it would be NTSC, so 59 or 60p. For the UK and most of Europe, it would be PAL, so 50p. I have the default refresh rate set to 50p and I almost never have to change the frame rate manually, as most local content from UK apps (BBC, ITV, etc) uses that refresh rate, and the refresh rate change is automatic with Netflix.
Playback:
When you first launch each app, it will ask for permission, select always accept.
For Netflix and other apps working with auto, the refresh rate is selected automatically according to content.
For Prime and other apps requiring manual, play the content, make a note of the displayed rate, stop playback, and select the refresh rate manually using the hotkey (volume up for me) before re-starting playback.
KODI:
Install Embuary Skin (just my personal preference as it looks good and supports MyMovies categories)
Set-up Shares (long press, set content, local .nfo only)
Set Video to auto frame rate
Set audio to passthrough
Whitelist all resolutions for source direct
I don't use PLEX, so can't help with that :)
Let us know in the thread if you have any questions.
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Hi Manni,
Thanks a lot for all your great contribution in all the different forum. Really appreciated.
Question:
Do you plan to test the Zidoo Z9X (on another thread adding a comparison with Dune) as the same way you did for this thread (oriented streaming)?
I think it’s a very promising device (even if I know you like the fact you can use MyMovie3 with the Dune).
My purpose is to find, if it exists, a good device to replace my Oppo.
Thanks
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I think Ill be picking up a ATV now that HBO max will have all warner releases this year streaming in 4k with HDR and ATMOS first run!
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Manni, can you confirm the Shield TV Pro will accept a 4K Remux and output 1080p to my projector? Seems pretty straightforward but I haven’t been able to get anyone to confirm. I currently use a PCH-A500 and since it doesn’t accept 4K Remuxes I’d like to upgrade to something that does so when I eventually upgrade my projector I won’t have to Remux all my titles. Thanks in advance.
Edit: I think I got this confirmed from another source but please still free to weigh in with your experience. Thanks
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I think Ill be picking up a ATV now that HBO max will have all warner releases this year streaming in 4k with HDR and ATMOS first run!
Any particular reason you’re opting for the ATV over the Shield? I’ve heard access to iTunes is probably the biggest factor for some but all the hardcore HT guys swear by the Shield for high bitrate file playback.
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Any particular reason you’re opting for the ATV over the Shield? I’ve heard access to iTunes is probably the biggest factor for some but all the hardcore HT guys swear by the Shield for high bitrate file playback.
Prob just familiarity
I haven’t really even looked into the shield
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Some good news for ATV4K owners. The latest public beta for 14.5 has added support for true 24hz frame rate content.
I am not on the beta program so will wait impatiently for it to be included in an official release.
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I wonder how pros/cons change with the latest (2021) Apple TV 4K? I primarily use Nvidia Shield in my main home theater but Apple TV in all other rooms. I get Youtube TV, and apparently not all their new 4K offerings (such as live 4K) work with the older (2017) Apple TV 4K (apparently on-dyemand 4K works). Not sure if there's enough 4K material in Youtube TV to warrant replacing my old (2017) Apple TV 4K though. Also, the new Apple TV 4K also offers 4K at 60 fps.
EDIT: Yeah, I see that 14.5 supposedly fixed the 24 fps issue (https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1613548043).
I just got the 2021 Apple TV 4K. Haven't done much testing with it yet, but I gotta say, the updated remote is much much nicer than the old remote.
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It still doesn’t allow for atmos/dtsx from NAS sources. Smh
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It still doesn’t allow for atmos/dtsx from NAS sources. Smh
Yes, unfortunately. So I’ll still be using my Shield on my Home Theater, but for other rooms, the Apple TV is still my preferred device.
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Yes, unfortunately. So I’ll still be using my Shield on my Home Theater, but for other rooms, the Apple TV is still my preferred device.
It would be mine too. But oh well. Someday maybe
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Latest tvos update in apple tv made it the best for streaming. With my 4k projector, the framerate switches quickly and I get HDR and atmos in Netflix, Amazon prime, Hulu and Disney+.
I don't own a shield - I used to few years ago. Next closest would be fire tv 4k stick. I have heard good things about 2nd gen cube also. Prime has framerate switching, HDR, Atmos etc. But you need to install kodi to get framerate switching, atmos etc. for netflix and disney+. No HDR with kodi on hulu and no framerate switching with hulu app but hdr works with the app.
Mibox v3 (oreo) comes next as you can install kodi and get some framerate switching. Roku premiere+ is the last in my list as I can't sideload ad free youtube app, framerate switching doesn't work except amazon prime.