AVS Discussions
Video Source Devices => 4K UltraHD Blu-ray => Topic started by: stridsvognen on December 04, 2016, 12:20:26 PM
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I found some UHD HDR grayscale patterns, and measured a standard BD grayscale vs a UHD grayscale using the HDR convertion of the UB900.
Im showing the gamma curve.
I used a old Pioneer 5090 Kuro plasma.
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And adjusting the HDR converter first -12 then +12.
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Here i measure the SMPTE 2084 HDR gamma curve, on the same display UHD testpatterns output/ converted to SDR, all neutral settings on the player.
First 30fl/100nit my standard BD SDR calibration setting, and next 60f/200nit, full pop on the old Pioneer plasma.
The white line is the reference.
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Here i measure the SMPTE 2084 HDR gamma curve, on the same display UHD testpatterns output/ converted to SDR, all neutral settings on the player.
First 30fl/100nit my standard BD SDR calibration setting, and next 60f/200nit, full pop on the old Pioneer plasma.
The white line is the reference.
Are you using the Panasonic UB900 with a 4K display yet ?
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Are you using the Panasonic UB900 with a 4K display yet ?
No as explained, im showing how the HDR converter is working for displays not capable of 1000 nit or above, and the example is using a Pioneer 5090 Plasma, capable of 200nit.
Someone else might like to show how the SMPTE 2084 tracks on a 4K HDR monitor, with different light output settings.
Im thinking about getting the last LG OLED, but dont think the tech is ready yet, and i know ill never live with a low contrast gray display, so there is not much other options than the OLED today, im open to surgestions.. just have to have high contrast..like plasma or OLED, and be able to turn all enhancement gimick off, and not make to much mess of the bit resolution/ graduations.
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Well, I just picked up the Panasonic 4K player. Wow - this is an improvement over the Samsung ! Better build quality, better picture, better remote, better all around. Way more settings available. And thank goodness it went on sale ! A quick look at Lone Survivor ( which I watched the other night using the Samsung 4K player ) showed a much better picture. The " red push " of the HDR - SDR BT2020 conversion is gone, which was apparent in the skin tones for one with the Samsung.
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Well, I just picked up the Panasonic 4K player. Wow - this is an improvement over the Samsung ! Better build quality, better picture, better remote, better all around. Way more settings available. And thank goodness it went on sale ! A quick look at Lone Survivor ( which I watched the other night using the Samsung 4K player ) showed a much better picture. The " red push " of the HDR - SDR BT2020 conversion is gone, which was apparent in the skin tones for one with the Samsung.
Sale? Are you talking about the dropped price of $599.00? :)
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Sale? Are you talking about the dropped price of $599.00? :)
Correct - $ 699.00 was more than I was willing to pay, which is why I waited for the Oppo. But right this minute, the Panny is probably the best 4K player for projectors when not using HDR. The $ 100.00 off just pushed me over the edge. ;D
Is the $ 599.00 price a permanent price reduction ?
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Correct - $ 699.00 was more than I was willing to pay, which is why I waited for the Oppo. But right this minute, the Panny is probably the best 4K player for projectors when not using HDR. The $ 100.00 off just pushed me over the edge. ;D
Is the $ 599.00 price a permanent price reduction ?
I believe that is a permanent price reduction. Panny probably saw what Oppo was bringing the 203 out for and lowered the price. Smart movie Panny! I'm thinking of sending the Oppo back and wait until spring to see what the new Sony player brings to the table. Then I can always buy whatever at that point. I think anything is better than the Sammy.
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Samsung had the first and worst BD player too back in 2006.
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Samsung had the first and worst BD player too back in 2006.
" Samsung - always first, always worst " ! :) Not a good slogan.............
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I believe that is a permanent price reduction. Panny probably saw what Oppo was bringing the 203 out for and lowered the price. Smart movie Panny! I'm thinking of sending the Oppo back and wait until spring to see what the new Sony player brings to the table. Then I can always buy whatever at that point. I think anything is better than the Sammy.
The Panny is very well thought out. And it just worked right out of the box, no hassles. So I'm done for now. Too bad about the Oppo. I still have my 103 though.
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" Samsung - always first, always worst " ! :) Not a good slogan.............
Craig, did you try the sharpening tools on the Panny yet? Javs said they do a good job without being destructive. He tested them using a sharpness pattern and came up with:
+3 High Freq
+1 Med Freq
+1 Edge Correction
Just wanted to hear your thoughts when you have more time. :)
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Craig, did you try the sharpening tools on the Panny yet? Javs said they do a good job without being destructive. He tested them using a sharpness pattern and came up with:
+3 High Freq
+1 Med Freq
+1 Edge Correction
Just wanted to hear your thoughts when you have more time. :)
I did - I copied all his notes and settings regarding the Panasonic and added them to my JVC RS500 / 600 tips. That way I can find them later, and share them with others. And I changed my settings in the RS600 too, to take the Panasonic settings into account. There is an improvement over the Samsung - no question. Color looks much better, obviously, since the Samsung had the " red push " problem ( like the Oppo 203 currently has ).
I'm going to need weeks to play with the various settings possible on the Panny, especially the dynamic range slider. I just left that at default.
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I did - I copied all his notes and settings regarding the Panasonic and added them to my JVC RS500 / 600 tips. That way I can find them later, and share them with others. And I changed my settings in the RS600 too, to take the Panasonic settings into account. There is an improvement over the Samsung - no question. Color looks much better, obviously, since the Samsung had the " red push " problem ( like the Oppo 203 currently has ).
I'm going to need weeks to play with the various settings possible on the Panny, especially the dynamic range slider. I just left that at default.
The dynamic range slider is best left alone unless you dont mind messing up the white clipping point, it works pretty much like the contrast adjustment on most displays.. The SDR output will alow you to display a HDR movie on a display capable of 200nit/ 60fl or more, and look like it was intendet from 0 to around 70% IRE.
So for maximum image fedelity HD blu ray is still the only thing that will work right on a projector, the UHD HDR needs pile of compromises to get a decent result on a low light display.
Try measure the SMPTE 2084 gamma curve on your projector at different HDR converter settings, using UHD HDR patterns.
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The dynamic range slider is best left alone unless you dont mind messing up the white clipping point, it works pretty much like the contrast adjustment on most displays.. The SDR output will alow you to display a HDR movie on a display capable of 200nit/ 60fl or more, and look like it was intendet from 0 to around 70% IRE.
So for maximum image fedelity HD blu ray is still the only thing that will work right on a projector, the UHD HDR needs pile of compromises to get a decent result on a low light display.
Try measure the SMPTE 2084 gamma curve on your projector at different HDR converter settings, using UHD HDR patterns.
The slider is best left alone. But so far, 4K UHD BR's watched with HDR convered to SDR BT2020 looks better than standard Blu Ray. No question. HDR - not so much.
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The slider is best left alone. But so far, 4K UHD BR's watched with HDR convered to SDR BT2020 looks better than standard Blu Ray. No question. HDR - not so much.
Whats your max light output calibrated.? And how do your colors track BT2020.?
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Not sure why max output is relevant. On the JVC RS600, the problem with HDR is that it disables the auto iris and raises black levels to a point that the blacks look grey. The excellent contrast of these projectors is their best feature. HDR doesn't bring enough to the table to offset the compromised black levels. it's pretty easy to see flipping back and forth with a Blu Ray.
I don't think HDR really works on any projector, other than a Digital Projection light cannon ( and they don't have very good black levels to begin with ).
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Not sure why max output is relevant. On the JVC RS600, the problem with HDR is that it disables the auto iris and raises black levels to a point that the blacks look grey. The excellent contrast of these projectors is their best feature. HDR doesn't bring enough to the table to offset the compromised black levels. it's pretty easy to see flipping back and forth with a Blu Ray.
I don't think HDR really works on any projector, other than a Digital Projection light cannon ( and they don't have very good black levels to begin with ).
The max lightoutput is very relevant as the movie is mastered in SMPTE 2084, and thats a static HDR, and the SDR output you still need to follow the SMPTE 2084 up to around 60-70% IRE before the HDR converter compresses the highlight area. The SDR is not SDR like we normaly use it, thats why the image looks terribly dim and lifeless if you run it with 20fl on the screen, you need around 60fl to do the UHD SDR output, and track the 0-70% IRE.. So as long as we are working with a HDR format as it is today, its very very relevant how much light you can dump on the screen, and to give a bit of meaning to the format we have to have more light to create a bigger dynamic range.
If you use the HDR convertion adjustment like on the UB900 you move the white clipping point, wich is never a good idea.
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The max lightoutput is very relevant as the movie is mastered in SMPTE 2084, and thats a static HDR, and the SDR output you still need to follow the SMPTE 2084 up to around 60-70% IRE before the HDR converter compresses the highlight area. The SDR is not SDR like we normaly use it, thats why the image looks terribly dim and lifeless if you run it with 20fl on the screen, you need around 60fl to do the UHD SDR output, and track the 0-70% IRE.. So as long as we are working with a HDR format as it is today, its very very relevant how much light you can dump on the screen, and to give a bit of meaning to the format we have to have more light to create a bigger dynamic range.
If you use the HDR convertion adjustment like on the UB900 you move the white clipping point, wich is never a good idea.
It's actually not dim at all, but I do prefer to watch standard blu Rays around 18 foot lamberts. I have flipped back and forth from Blu Ray to 4K Blu Ray, and brightness wise, with both my RS600 and VW600, there is no difference ( using the HDR to SDR BT2020 conversion ). I do need to open the manual iris from -7 to -5 or -4 on my JVC, when watching 4K Blu Rays. Most of my 4K UHD Blu Rays are mastered at 1000 nits I believe ( I need to re-visit the website that has that info ).
I'm leaving the HDR conversion adjustment alone, but I was just interested to see how it worked.
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I asked another RS600 owner how much light he got on screen, and he told me 46fl, dont know what screen size he is running, but il think that would make it work pretty well for the UHD SDR.
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I asked another RS600 owner how much light he got on screen, and he told me 46fl, dont know what screen size he is running, but il think that would make it work pretty well for the UHD SDR.
The highest I measured on my screen was 44 foot lamberts. But who wants to watch in high lamp with the iris wide open? That negates the very best attribute of the JVC projector - contrast and black levels. Watching in HDR on many movies produces a picture that looks inferior to the Blu Ray ( due to gray blacks ). Converting HDR to SDR with the wide color gamut produces a visibly better picture with 4K Blu Rays. And it certainly doesn't need to be more than 16 or 18 foot lamberts.
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The highest I measured on my screen was 44 foot lamberts. But who wants to watch in high lamp with the iris wide open? That negates the very best attribute of the JVC projector - contrast and black levels. Watching in HDR on many movies produces a picture that looks inferior to the Blu Ray ( due to gray blacks ). Converting HDR to SDR with the wide color gamut produces a visibly better picture with 4K Blu Rays. And it certainly doesn't need to be more than 16 or 18 foot lamberts.
I agree about the contrast and black level.. But not that 16 or 18fl works for UHD SDR.. It runs a way to high gamma out of black, making the image way more dim than a normal HD movie, unless you fiddle with the contrast or HDR converter, and add a serious amount of white clipping, or have a processor to change the shape of the gamma.
The SDR output you get from the UB900 is not SDR, its a HDR with a brakpoint/ gamma roleoff to compress the highlights.. Its still mastered for 1000nit or more, and you compress that to 55-60nit.
Sure we can like or dislike whatever we want, having a subjective opinion about it, but objectively, its a mess.
The ilustration is a 30fl UHD SDR curve. it looks a bit like a 8-10fl HD image to me, as i see it its not that we need the huge amount of light output in the average movie content, so might work if the roleoff on the highlight was steaper, like the converter adjusted the 65% ire point up and down holding black and white reference, but it dont.
What gamma do you run on your HD calibration.?
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I agree about the contrast and black level.. But not that 16 or 18fl works for UHD SDR.. It runs a way to high gamma out of black, making the image way more dim than a normal HD movie, unless you fiddle with the contrast or HDR converter, and add a serious amount of white clipping, or have a processor to change the shape of the gamma.
The SDR output you get from the UB900 is not SDR, its a HDR with a brakpoint/ gamma roleoff to compress the highlights.. Its still mastered for 1000nit or more, and you compress that to 55-60nit.
Sure we can like or dislike whatever we want, having a subjective opinion about it, but objectively, its a mess.
The ilustration is a 30fl UHD SDR curve. it looks a bit like a 8-10fl HD image to me, as i see it its not that we need the huge amount of light output in the average movie content, so might work if the roleoff on the highlight was steaper, like the converter adjusted the 65% ire point up and down holding black and white reference, but it dont.
What gamma do you run on your HD calibration.?
I've been using a gamma of 2.4. I agree, it's going to take some time for 4K UHD calibration discs etc. to bring everything back under control. In the mean time, it's not a bad ( subjectively ) looking picture. And most of my watching is ( and will be ) HD sources for quite some time. It's just fun to play with this new 4K UHD stuff in the mean time. :)
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Watched " The Shallows " last night. Sure a bright picture without HDR. The 4K disc looks pretty darn good. Then I tried out a few apps built in. Going to stream a triathlon movie tonight my wife has been wanting to see from Amazon ( not in 4K ). It's handy having short cuts on the remote such as " internet " to jump to other sources. So far, I like this player.
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Watched " Allied " on 4K UHD Blu-ray last night with my wife. She enjoyed it. I must say that with the new dynamic range slider, 4K Blu-rays now look really good - the problem of them being too dark is a thing of the past.