AVS Discussions
Projectors => Premium Projectors => Topic started by: alangouger on March 14, 2018, 08:53:05 PM
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Doing quick research I see this model delivers up to 200,000:1 on/off contrast.
Anyone here own this projector or know anyone who does.
Is 200k contrast achievable by any other JVC projector?
Does this projector offer P3 and HDR and dynamic contrast?
Not much details available online but it looks interesting.
Looking for pros and cons. The price is not bad, I would expect to see some interest in this product.
Thank you!!
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Doing quick research I see this model delivers up to 200,000:1 on/off contrast.
Anyone here own this projector or know anyone who does.
Is 200k contrast achievable by any other JVC projector?
Does this projector offer P3 and HDR and dynamic contrast?
Not much details available online but it looks interesting.
Looking for pros and cons. The price is not bad, I would expect to see some interest in this product.
Thank you!!
They only made a few of them, so finding one now might be difficult. It does offer HDR and full (well, like 98-99%) P3 coverage. It is basically a even more "hand picked" version of the 640. Or to quote Men in Black, "the best of the best of the best, with honors" version.
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I doubt we'll even see measurements for these units. We'll just have to assume they reach 200,000:1 native at telephoto, high lamp and irises closed.
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I doubt we'll even see measurements for these units. We'll just have to assume they reach 200,000:1 native at telephoto, high lamp and irises closed.
I did talk to JVC, and these projectors have been tested to meet spec's.
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I did talk to JVC, and these projectors have been tested to meet spec's.
You'd think on the 35k RS4500 they would have tested them to the point that I wouldn't be on my 3rd one next week since the first two had two aberrations OTB that would have been caught with relatively minimal QC testing.
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You'd think on the 35k RS4500 they would have tested them to the point that I wouldn't be on my 3rd one next week since the first two had two aberrations OTB that would have been caught with relatively minimal QC testing.
That's unfortunate. I'm at 650 ? 675 hours ? Something like that. No problems so far.
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That's unfortunate. I'm at 650 ? 675 hours ? Something like that. No problems so far.
It is but I still love the image it throws so that's why I keep have them send me new ones!
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It is but I still love the image it throws so that's why I keep have them send me new ones!
I'll be playing with the Paladin DCR lens and Radiance Pro next week to see if it's possible to take the picture to an even higher level. :)
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I'll be playing with the Paladin DCR lens and Radiance Pro next week to see if it's possible to take the picture to an even higher level. :)
I saw that cant' wait to hear what you think
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They only made a few of them, so finding one now might be difficult. It does offer HDR and full (well, like 98-99%) P3 coverage. It is basically a even more "hand picked" version of the 640. Or to quote Men in Black, "the best of the best of the best, with honors" version.
Thanks for chiming in Kris, always good hearing from you.
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I'll be playing with the Paladin DCR lens and Radiance Pro next week to see if it's possible to take the picture to an even higher level. :)
Glad to see Panamorph is still around. Is the DCR lens acrylic or glass?
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Alright - who's buying one of these ? We have two - calling all contrast / " black level fiends " - step right up !
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Glad to see Panamorph is still around. Is the DCR lens acrylic or glass?
Good question - I've asked Shawn Kelly - stay tuned !
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I doubt we'll even see measurements for these units. We'll just have to assume they reach 200,000:1 native at telephoto, high lamp and irises closed.
I think independent measurements will be coming for one of these units. Stay tuned. :)
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Glad to see Panamorph is still around. Is the DCR lens acrylic or glass?
All glass lens. Panamorph apparently hasn't had an acrylic lens since 2005 or so.
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You'd think on the 35k RS4500 they would have tested them to the point that I wouldn't be on my 3rd one next week since the first two had two aberrations OTB that would have been caught with relatively minimal QC testing.
I hear you.... I am now on my 3rd unit, now again waiting for a replacement to arrive from Japan...my 2nd recent replacement was ...lets just say "A Disaster!!! :(
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I doubt we'll even see measurements for these units. We'll just have to assume they reach 200,000:1 native at telephoto, high lamp and irises closed.
Oh we'll be seeing them. I just got a tracking email. Stay tuned for more!
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Oh we'll be seeing them. I just got a tracking email. Stay tuned for more!
Kris, visually are you prepared to process 200,000:1 contrast, I hope your head does not explode :)
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Oh we'll be seeing them. I just got a tracking email. Stay tuned for more!
So you ponied up and bought one? Or is it in for review?
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Kris, visually are you prepared to process 200,000:1 contrast, I hope your head does not explode :)
That is just full on/off capability with no brightness to spare. Probably going to be closer to 80K:1 in my setup, but we'll see. With dynamic engaged probably over a million to 1.
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So you ponied up and bought one? Or is it in for review?
Alan was interested in getting some insight and measurements done and asked if I'd be willing. How could I say no??
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Alan was interested in getting some insight and measurements done and asked if I'd be willing. How could I say no??
Sooo have you got it yet?
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Sooo have you got it yet?
Got it in late Thursday night. So I got a little time with it on Friday but my daughter arrived yesterday for her spring break, so won't get much time with it this week.
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Got it in late Thursday night. So I got a little time with it on Friday but my daughter arrived yesterday for her spring break, so won't get much time with it this week.
Any update on this Kris? :)
Thanks..
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I'd be curious to see a few measurements!
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Yeah, sorry for delays guys. Will be working hard and heavy on this all week. I got the projector the day before my daughter was out for spring break and then I was on a sub. Home now for awhile, so will get plenty of time with the projector.
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So spent a few hours this morning just going over the basics. No calibration or measurements, just getting it dialed into the screen and using the default pictures modes (natural and HDR). The unit has absolutely fantastic pixel focus. Probably the best I've seen from a JVC from edge to edge (not including the 4500). Not perfect, but VERY close. Zero convergence issues. On the right side of the screen is an ever so slight amount of red bleed, but I couldn't make it out more than about 1-2 feet from the screen. Black uniformity is also quite good. Small tinge of bright corner in the bottom right and a slight amount on the left side, but only after I sat with a black screen and absolutely zero light for about 10 minutes or more. Couldn't make it out at all in normal viewing. Very slight streaking with white on black, but again, probably one of the best I've seen in this regard. Overall this is exactly the type of performance I would expect from a "hand picked" unit and probably as good as the design is capable of with the basics.
The Natural mode looked quite good out of the box (again, no measurements). Nothing looked "off" in terms of color or grayscale balance. The HDR mode looked pretty good, but the darker end of the image looks a bit crushed giving the image an overly contrasty look that I could see some actually preferring but at the expense of shadow detail (The Revenent was an excellent test for this and showed the lack of detail). Highlights and color saturation looked fantastic though. Again, I think only the super critical or those that just have to know that it is a calibrated projector would have any issues with the image I saw out of the box.
I'll start in on the measurements this week and into the weekend and report back.
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So spent a few hours this morning just going over the basics. No calibration or measurements, just getting it dialed into the screen and using the default pictures modes (natural and HDR). The unit has absolutely fantastic pixel focus. Probably the best I've seen from a JVC from edge to edge (not including the 4500). Not perfect, but VERY close. Zero convergence issues. On the right side of the screen is an ever so slight amount of red bleed, but I couldn't make it out more than about 1-2 feet from the screen. Black uniformity is also quite good. Small tinge of bright corner in the bottom right and a slight amount on the left side, but only after I sat with a black screen and absolutely zero light for about 10 minutes or more. Couldn't make it out at all in normal viewing. Very slight streaking with white on black, but again, probably one of the best I've seen in this regard. Overall this is exactly the type of performance I would expect from a "hand picked" unit and probably as good as the design is capable of with the basics.
The Natural mode looked quite good out of the box (again, no measurements). Nothing looked "off" in terms of color or grayscale balance. The HDR mode looked pretty good, but the darker end of the image looks a bit crushed giving the image an overly contrasty look that I could see some actually preferring but at the expense of shadow detail (The Revenent was an excellent test for this and showed the lack of detail). Highlights and color saturation looked fantastic though. Again, I think only the super critical or those that just have to know that it is a calibrated projector would have any issues with the image I saw out of the box.
I'll start in on the measurements this week and into the weekend and report back.
Great to hear some positive feedback for a change.. :)
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I'll start in on the measurements this week and into the weekend and report back.
Any updates Kris ? :)
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With regards to the JVC black crush, it's easily fixed. I have an RS500 with the same result, and I just upped the brightness control to about 4 or 5 and that revealed all the missing bits. I checked if the actual black floor had been raised by flipping the hide button on and off, and it was only about a setting of about 6 that it do so. I was using my Lumagen Radiance test patterns to determine if it was indeed revealing the last few bars of info above black, and it did.
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Any updates Kris ? :)
Hopefully Kris didn't get pulled into that presumably 200,000:1 native contrast black hole. :D
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Hey guys. Sorry for the lack of updates. This just all turned out to be horrible timing for looking at a projector. I've started a new position at work and I've been on extensive and last minute travel A LOT, which was unforseen when the projector was shipped to me. I am going to try and get all the contrast measurements done this week and get some posts up. Combining those with my comments before would give you an idea of the projector overall, since it is basically a hand picked RS640. So far it is living up to that expectation in terms of uniformity, pixel focus, focus uniformity, and streaking, which are the areas that getting a "hand picked" unit make the most difference in. I'll try and get the measurements for contrast up by week's end. Thanks for your patience!!
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No worries, Kris. Life comes first.
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Hello Everyone. I finally got the chance to spend some more time with the projector. The similarities to the x20 and x40 series continue. Out of the box calibration is in line with what I've seen from previous models, but I sometimes find this to be a bit of a misnomer. While you can get a very good calibration with very little tweaking out of the box, within about 150 hours or so the gamma issues start to really kick in. This requires a full calibration including the use of the JVC calibration software to correct the mid-range of the gamma curve, which can't be resolved with the normal user menu. So anyone buying a JVC, keep this in mind!!
The biggest thing I looked at was contrast performance. I know this is the key area that JVC separates themselves from the pack and with this "special edition" model I know a lot of big numbers have been thrown out there.
With that said, I tested the projector in both high and low lamp, but the differences between the two for contrast were too small to make a difference. Obviously lamp mode comes more into play on how much light you need or how aggressive you'd like to be with the manual dual iris system. I did test through the range of zoom (max and min) and three iris positions (fully open, mid (-8), and fully closed down).
For minimum zoom the numbers were 41K:1, 78K:1, and 115K:1. So around 40K is about the worst contrast number you should expect from this projector regardless of setup (unless you damage the black floor in your grayscale calibration or set brightness incorrectly).
For max zoom the numbers were 58K:1, 100K:1, and 196K:1. So overall contrast for this projector (without the use of the dynamic iris) should be somewhere between about 40K:1 on the low end and 200K:1 on the high end.
To put that in perspective the best native contrast I've measured from the new "4K" DLPs was around 2000:1 and with the Sony 4K projectors I got somewhere in the mid-teens (though I have not measured their newer models that have an iris to increase contrast performance).
With the dynamic iris contrast was much tougher to measure with values near 1,000,000:1 and higher for the most part. Obviously this will always give the best contrast performance but there are some subtle artifacts that vary with content, so the decision to use it is solely based on the end user preference. I've gotten more and more in the habit of not using it due to the higher native contrast we see from these projectors. Yes, it makes the black floor much better, but I see enough artifacts from time to time that I'm more inclined to be bothered by them than the native contrast performance once I'm absorbed by the content I'm watching. If I feel like the content is REALLY demanding, I just turn it on.
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Very nice. Unreal native contrast measurement. This is a really sweet projector. :)
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Great write up Kris!
In my RS520 review I talked a bit about how great the native contrast is on these units. In my haste setting up the RS520 before a friend came over to watch a movie with me, I accidentally forgot to turn the DI on. We watched Spiderman Homecoming. There was plenty of darker content in this film. I genuinely thought the DI was on because of how good the contrast appeared in these darker scenes. JVC is really a cut above in the native dynamic range department over other display manufacturers. While I haven't personally seen much, if any, difference in apparent resolution between Sony 4Ks and JVC eshift units, contrast is always something that I find to be obviously better on the JVC eshifters. I think that's why so many people are choosing JVC.
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Great write up Kris!
In my RS520 review I talked a bit about how great the native contrast is on these units. In my haste setting up the RS520 before a friend came over to watch a movie with me, I accidentally forgot to turn the DI on. We watched Spiderman Homecoming. There was plenty of darker content in this film. I genuinely thought the DI was on because of how good the contrast appeared in these darker scenes. JVC is really a cut above in the native dynamic range department over other display manufacturers. While I haven't personally seen much, if any, difference in apparent resolution between Sony 4Ks and JVC eshift units, contrast is always something that I find to be obviously better on the JVC eshifters. I think that's why so many people are choosing JVC.
Agree, native contrast really shines and honestly, I bet if most turned off the DI and didn't know it, they wouldn't notice unless they were really thinking about it or looking for problems (which people in this hobby always tend to do).
Native resolution vs the Sony is a tough one. Having a native 4K device is nice, and when you compare them side by side you can pick apart the little (and I do mean little) differences, but we don't watch content that way. The resolution on these has gotten so good that I doubt most would know the difference if they walked in a room and viewed the image without being told which was which. Not that I don't want JVC to move onto native 4K, but it isn't the nagging issue.
The nagging issues that I think JVC needs to focus on more than anything else are:
- HDMI synch time (this is LONG overdue for improvements and is IMHO their most frustrating issue)
- Gamma stability (we shouldn't be seeing this massive gamma shift in the mid range that requires special firmware to fix)
The things I want to see in future models (in order of my preference):
- Laser light source (stable light output over time and not worrying about power cycling EVER is nice)
- Lower noise level in high lamp (or higher laser modes)
- Native 4K panels
- Increases in native contrast (don't want them resting on their laurels!!!!)
- Increases in performance for dynamic contrast system (the both their lamp and laser models are good, but both could be improved)
- Improvements in HDR tone mapping (still not as good as Arve or Lumagen Intensity Mapping!)
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I'm tempted more by native 4K than a laser light source. I fear that having both at once will keep prices artificially high. I want to see native 4K from JVC at around $7000-$8000 or lower this fall and I don't think JVC will have laser and native 4K at that price this year. We'll see what happens.
Lately I've been hearing eshift noise a lot more than fan noise. I think getting rid of eshift will lower the dB level in high lamp mode with a 4K image on a noticeable level. I see this as one major benefit of native 4K panels.
One of my biggest gripes with JVC's eshifters is with internal reflections. In mid-APL content especially I think these internal reflections slightly washout the image a bit. I'd like to see JVC try and eliminate this issue if possible. I don't see it on Sony 4Ks or DLP projectors. Kris, have you seen internal reflection issues with the RS4500?
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No. Both the 4500 review unit and the one I purchased had zero reflection issues. All the standard models have it to varying degrees for sure.
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That's great to hear. I hope this is something they can trickle down to the cheaper native 4K models when they come.
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Craig posted pictures of the 20LTD on AVSF and stated the native contrast number, saying a review was on another forum. AVSF wiped the post out. Not only that, AVSF removed all posts that replied to Craig's post or post of a post that dealt with that topic.
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They can't axe my Tweets ! ???
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AVSF wiped the post out. Not only that, AVSF removed all posts that replied to Craig's post or post of a post that dealt with that topic.
Why??? ???
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Why??? ???
Because I said the info was on " another forum ". They don't like us here. They said it was spam. :-X
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Hello Everyone. I finally got the chance to spend some more time with the projector...
Hi Kris, Thank you for taking the time to evaluate this and publish your findings.
Did you by any chance take any ANSI Contrast Ratio measurements? I'd be interested to know how this compares with the RS640/X9900 which is circa 220:1 - 290:1 :)
BTW totally gutted that my own 20LTD was DOA and JVC were unable to replace it :(
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BTW totally gutted that my own 20LTD was DOA and JVC were unable to replace it :(
Sorry to hear. I was expecting they would not be able to despite what Bandyka claimed on the other forum a while back.
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Hi Kris, Thank you for taking the time to evaluate this and publish your findings.
Did you by any chance take any ANSI Contrast Ratio measurements? I'd be interested to know how this compares with the RS640/X9900 which is circa 220:1 - 290:1 :)
BTW totally gutted that my own 20LTD was DOA and JVC were unable to replace it :(
We do have one available for a special price ! 8)