AVS Discussions
Video Source Devices => HTPC => Topic started by: stanger89 on January 24, 2018, 08:11:45 PM
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Alright, lets get something started here.
There's been scattered talk about playing HDR lately, with the advent of ripping UHD BDs, we've got some new options, so lets talk about them. In the other forum some have claimed madVR is amazing (not doubting it at all) but I thought I'd start a thread here to talk about it all.
Specifically, I wanted to start a discussion about madVR and how to set it up, what works, etc (not saying I've got the answers :)). So I've been playing with madVR and UBDs for a few days now, part of the discussion is about highlight saturation, so I thought I'd take a look. There's a scene in BvS where the Kryptonian monster releases and energy blast, it was the first scene where I figured out what Javs and others were talking about about loss of saturation with a "sub optimal" curve. Here's what I get with a couple different options:
First "native" HDR, via a custom curve on my RS600:
(https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1654.0;attach=1021;image)
Next madVR's SDR conversion set to 0% Luminance 100% Saturation reduction:
(https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1654.0;attach=1023;image)
Here's madVR 50% Luminance, 50% Saturation:
(https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1654.0;attach=1025;image)
And finally madVR 100% Luminance 0% Saturation reduction
(https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1654.0;attach=1025;image)
Now, my custom curve is 4000 nits, 100 nit peak, 25 nit reference, with an end slope of 0.6.
madVR is set to 400 nits display target.
I'm not sure how well this shows up in the pictures, but here's what I notice. First things first, talking highlights, it's not a night and day difference. I notice that the, lets say "mid tones", or lower highlights are brighter with madVR. Of course that may come down to my display target in madVR. I started at 200 nits, but that was far brighter than SDR, so I've been reducing since then, possibly I could go a bit more.
What's maybe more interesting is what happens in the actual highlights, namely the beam in the center.
What I notice, mostly, is that if you set madVR to 100% luminance reduction, you lose detail in the highlights. The difference to my eye, between 50/50 and 0/50 is almost none.
Beyond that, I'm not really sure, there's a bit of a difference in tone between the custom curve and 50/50, specifically in the highlights, problem is, I'm not really sure which one is more "right".
So, thoughts?
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It's not a "Knight And Day" difference. I see what you did there. :P ;D
They all look so close. Even after I try to dissect each part of the picture. I'm sure it looks different in person and on a big screen. I like the native HDR the best and then maybe the madvr 50/50. For me, I still want a great tone mapped sdr bt2020 picture for the simple fact of running the projector in low lamp, being quieter and giving off less heat. I'm really glad Oppo is still working on this and Kris has said the beta version looks really good so far.
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I also do not see much difference, But I also like the first picture. The custom curve. Is the difference in the pictures a lot bigger, when looking at them on screen? I am also looking forward to seeing what Oppo comes up with.
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I just switched tonight to using oppo strip meta with 300 nits
And used custom gammA 1 but instead of import I used the 2.4 correction
I think it’s a better picture than the custom gammA alone using hdr2020
Hope it gets even better when oppo releases the new tone mapping
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It's not a "Knight And Day" difference. I see what you did there. :P ;D
You mean, that I was delirious when I typed that apparently? 8)
They all look so close. Even after I try to dissect each part of the picture. I'm sure it looks different in person and on a big screen. I like the native HDR the best and then maybe the madvr 50/50.
Yeah, I'm still not sure what one I like best. I should probably check out the same scene on my OLED and see how it looks there, to figure out which one is most "right".
For me, I still want a great tone mapped sdr bt2020 picture for the simple fact of running the projector in low lamp, being quieter and giving off less heat. I'm really glad Oppo is still working on this and Kris has said the beta version looks really good so far.
And for me, either way I run it in high lamp, that way I still get all the HDR-ness, I was really just interested in trying madVR's tone mapping due to Kris's comments about how he could never get the JVC to look "right" with native HDR, he had to use a Lumagen or Oppo-beta tone mapping. And then Manni tried madVR and said it was great.
So for me, it's just a different way of skinning the cat. I suppose though, given the context of Kris's comments, I should be checking out shadow detail/color, since I believe that's where Kris found the "deficiency" in JVC's native HDR.
I also do not see much difference, But I also like the first picture. The custom curve. Is the difference in the pictures a lot bigger, when looking at them on screen? I am also looking forward to seeing what Oppo comes up with.
It's not really greater on screen. Those pics were all exactly the same camera settings, and no post adjustments (other than cropping/resizing)
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Stanger, what screen and size did you have again?
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It's a 110" wide scope, but I was lazy and didn't zoom for those pictures so that was about 83" wide.
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It's a 110" wide scope, but I was lazy and didn't zoom for those pictures so that was about 83" wide.
Wow, only 110" wide. Is it AT? I would think you could get away with low lamp easily if you wanted to do SDR2020 but, if the higher noise of the fan doesn't bother you, that's good. I like being able to close the iris down using SDR2020 and use low lamp. I can then open the iris a couple clicks as the bulb ages. From what I've seen hdr & sdr2020 doesn't look a whole lot different to me on our projectors and if Oppo can get it looking correct this will be excellent for me.
It will be nice when we can get bright laser light sources for decent prices and make hdr look even better...hopefully without to much cooling noise if you need to run in high mode.
Mike
Sorry, hit wrong button. :)
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Wow, only 110" wide. Is it AT?
Yeah, it's Ruben's original custom sheerweave fabric (I really need to get a new screen, the weave is a bit coarse for "4K").
I would think you could get away with low lamp easily if you wanted to do SDR2020 but, if the higher noise of the fan doesn't bother you, that's good.
I could run low lamp, I actually did for quite a while. But after comparing the last Harry Potter on my OLED, I like the extra punch I get in high lamp. If my i1D3 is to be believe I get right at 15-16fL (~50 nits) in low lamp at -9, and I want to say I was getting only about 80 or so at -0. If I bump to high lamp, I think I'm at 100-110.
I like being able to close the iris down using SDR2020 and use low lamp. I can then open the iris a couple clicks as the bulb ages. From what I've seen hdr & sdr2020 doesn't look a whole lot different to me on our projectors and if Oppo can get it looking correct this will be excellent for me.
Yeah, they don't really look that different to me either, not with a good custom curve at least. But regardless of which way you do it, it's still HDR, and deserves the extra punch over true SDR.
It will be nice when we can get bright laser light sources for decent prices and make hdr look even better...hopefully without to much cooling noise if you need to run in high mode.
A laser RS6x0 with maybe 2500 lumens would be quite nice.
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just to confirm....if using one of javs custom curves...with sdr2020 (having the oppo do that) and i select correction as gamma 2.4 instead of import...im doing this correctly correct? and still get the benefits of the custom curve?
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Wow, only 110" wide. Is it AT? I would think you could get away with low lamp easily if you wanted to do SDR2020 but, if the higher noise of the fan doesn't bother you, that's good. I like being able to close the iris down using SDR2020 and use low lamp. I can then open the iris a couple clicks as the bulb ages. From what I've seen hdr & sdr2020 doesn't look a whole lot different to me on our projectors and if Oppo can get it looking correct this will be excellent for me.
It will be nice when we can get bright laser light sources for decent prices and make hdr look even better...hopefully without to much cooling noise if you need to run in high mode.
Mike
Sorry, hit wrong button. :)
Having a laser light source is nice. You don't really have to think about how often you turn the projector off and on. You can use the projector just like a TV, without worrying about lamp hours.
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Yeah, it's Ruben's original custom sheerweave fabric (I really need to get a new screen, the weave is a bit coarse for "4K").
I could run low lamp, I actually did for quite a while. But after comparing the last Harry Potter on my OLED, I like the extra punch I get in high lamp. If my i1D3 is to be believe I get right at 15-16fL (~50 nits) in low lamp at -9, and I want to say I was getting only about 80 or so at -0. If I bump to high lamp, I think I'm at 100-110.
Yeah, they don't really look that different to me either, not with a good custom curve at least. But regardless of which way you do it, it's still HDR, and deserves the extra punch over true SDR.
A laser RS6x0 with maybe 2500 lumens would be quite nice.
Have you seen the V6 fabric? I can't remember if we have sent a sample to you or not?
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Having a laser light source is nice. You don't really have to think about how often you turn the projector off and on. You can use the projector just like a TV, without worrying about lamp hours.
literally the ONLY thing I hate about PJ's I already have 60 hours on my new rs600....and that bugs me...dont know why...but it does lol
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literally the ONLY thing I hate about PJ's I already have 60 hours on my new rs600....and that bugs me...dont know why...but it does lol
Watch the movie, rather than the hour meter. :) As much as I like laser, I really have to admit, I have not bought very many replacement lamps for my projectors. Now I do not keep many of them long, but I did keep my RS45 for six years and only bought one replacement lamp. My RS45 was used regularly. It was my nightly TV watching projector in my family room. So as much as we complain about lamps, it really has not been an issue for me at all.
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Watch the movie, rather than the hour meter. :) As much as I like laser, I really have to admit, I have not bought very many replacement lamps for my projectors. Now I do not keep many of them long, but I did keep my RS45 for six years and only bought one replacement lamp. My RS45 was used regularly. It was my nightly TV watching projector in my family room. So as much as we complain about lamps, it really has not been an issue for me at all.
i do... :)
the other night I was checking if i was getting HDR in the info screen and was shocked I was at 60 hours already lol....
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i do... :)
the other night I was checking if i was getting HDR in the info screen and was shocked I was at 60 hours already lol....
I am just kidding with you. Whenever I get a new projector, I am shocked at how many hours I put on it quickly. Always seems to be a lot the first month. :)
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just to confirm....if using one of javs custom curves...with sdr2020 (having the oppo do that) and i select correction as gamma 2.4 instead of import...im doing this correctly correct? and still get the benefits of the custom curve?
I'm not quite following. I believe Javs custom (GAMMA) curves are for HDR. So, if you want to watch HDR you would select the BT2020 color profile in the JVC and select IMPORT & one of the CUSTOM slots for Javs custom Gamma curves in the JVC. If you have HDR set to 'Auto' in the Oppo your good to go. Hit the info button on the JVC to confirm HDR says 'YES'.
For SDR BT2020 if you have the Oppo 203 you would select 'STRIP METADATA'. Select BT2020 color profile in the JVC and use the Gamma setting in the JVC that you use for Hi-def, like Blu-rays for example. I'm using gamma 2.3 for example. If you hit the info button on the JVC the HDR line will be gone.
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I'm not quite following. I believe Javs custom (GAMMA) curves are for HDR. So, if you want to watch HDR you would select the BT2020 color profile in the JVC and select IMPORT & one of the CUSTOM slots for Javs custom Gamma curves in the JVC. If you have HDR set to 'Auto' in the Oppo your good to go. Hit the info button on the JVC to confirm HDR says 'YES'.
For SDR BT2020 if you have the Oppo 203 you would select 'STRIP METADATA'. Select BT2020 color profile in the JVC and use the Gamma setting in the JVC that you use for Hi-def, like Blu-rays for example. I'm using gamma 2.3 for example. If you hit the info button on the JVC the HDR line will be gone.
i read on AVS that you use the custom gamma slot and just change it from "import" to 2.4 ...and it will work perfectly...for the strip metadata setting on the oppo...I watched baywatch with it last night and it looked fantastic.
I use a completly different gamma for my 1080 movies..
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just to confirm....if using one of javs custom curves...with sdr2020 (having the oppo do that) and i select correction as gamma 2.4 instead of import...im doing this correctly correct? and still get the benefits of the custom curve?
Correct, same basic setup but with a 2.4 vs "HDR" gamma.
Have you seen the V6 fabric? I can't remember if we have sent a sample to you or not?
I think you sent me an 8.5x11 of the V5.
literally the ONLY thing I hate about PJ's I already have 60 hours on my new rs600....and that bugs me...dont know why...but it does lol
Man, I've got like 1200 on mine. Hours really don't bother me at all, the only thing that I do think about, lamp related, is I'll basically not fire it up if it's not going to get more than an hour of use.
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Correct, same basic setup but with a 2.4 vs "HDR" gamma.
thank you!
what is in the "import" vs 2.4?
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Correct, same basic setup but with a 2.4 vs "HDR" gamma.
I think you sent me an 8.5x11 of the V5.
Man, I've got like 1200 on mine. Hours really don't bother me at all, the only thing that I do think about, lamp related, is I'll basically not fire it up if it's not going to get more than an hour of use.
V6 sample going out to you. As for lamp, that is how I am. I bought the projector to use and the only thing that keeps me from using it, like you, if less than an hour.
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thank you!
what is in the "import" vs 2.4?
When you go into a Custom Gamma there's a setting "Correction Factor" I think with several options. To use a custom gamma, ie from Arve's tool, you set it to import, otherwise you can pick the gamma you want to use.
V6 sample going out to you.
Thanks
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When you go into a Custom Gamma there's a setting "Correction Factor" I think with several options. To use a custom gamma, ie from Arve's tool, you set it to import, otherwise you can pick the gamma you want to use.
Thanks
no i know that...i was wondering whatis in that setting
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thank you!
what is in the "import" vs 2.4?
Import refers to the imported HDR custom gamma you loaded into one of the three custom slots.
2.4 is not an HDR gamma so that is why you would use it for SDR BT.2020 and not one of the three custom HDR gammas you imported.
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Just did some more comparison.
I still prefer the hdr signal with custom curve imported
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And then Manni tried madVR and said it was great.
I am sorry who is Manni? I would like to get some tips/settings to try with my RS520 and madvr.
Thanks!