JVC is reporting the projector is still on track for the us. I also checked on the Chief mount for this product. Chief is reporting mid to late December for the custom mount. Chief does have a current mount that will work. It is the VCMU: http://www.chiefmfg.com/Products/VCMU (http://www.chiefmfg.com/Products/VCMU)
That has got to be one beefy mount, since this projector is 90 pounds ! :o
What I don't like is that when the life expectancy of the bulb is reached...it is not replaceable. I don't want to buy a disposable projector. :(
I'd love to try and calculate how future-proof this projector might be, especially not having to buy bulbs. If I think I might keep it for ~15 years (I had my last projector for almost 10 years...buying a new bulb every year), I just might justify the cost!
Why is it disposable? While you can't replace the light source like you can with a lamp based projector, you could send the projector back to JVC and have them replace the light source. Beside, by the time you wore out the light source, the projector would be so obsolete that it would be long past time to replace it.I didn't know that, I was told in the past that the LED projectors did not have the option of having the light source repaired by the factory...that changes my opinion 100%. Are all LED projectors the same (major manufacturers), or is it just the high end models? I run 2000-5000 hours per year on my projectors currently...if the light engines are replaceable then it makes this a possiblity for my next projector as long as the lumens are enough. :)
I didn't know that, I was told in the past that the LED projectors did not have the option of having the light source repaired by the factory...that changes my opinion 100%. Are all LED projectors the same (major manufacturers), or is it just the high end models? I run 2000-5000 hours per year on my projectors currently...if the light engines are replaceable then it makes this a possiblity for my next projector as long as the lumens are enough. :)
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All previous models could only switch to Gamma D when an HDR signal was present. The RS4500 will instead switch to a full HDR preset which can include BT2020, Gamma D, specific laser/lens settings and a variety of other picture parameters. This is what we have been looking for. Once set up, this should be our plug and play mode for 4K.
I didn't know that, I was told in the past that the LED projectors did not have the option of having the light source repaired by the factory...that changes my opinion 100%. Are all LED projectors the same (major manufacturers), or is it just the high end models? I run 2000-5000 hours per year on my projectors currently...if the light engines are replaceable then it makes this a possiblity for my next projector as long as the lumens are enough. :)
Just spoke with JVC regarding the RS4500. Looks like around 4 weeks delay. They are working on the firmware and want to make sure the projector performs the best that it can.
Honestly, that's what they should do if needed. No one would want a projector that has half it's useful features either completely disabled or not working properly anyways.
I will be curious of the inevitable A/B comparisons of the RS500/600 vs the RS4500 with native 4K content.
JVC has selected Kris Deering as a reviewer of the RS4500. Congratulations Kris and looking forward to your review. :)
I will be curious of the inevitable A/B comparisons of the RS500/600 vs the RS4500 with native 4K content.
I think the law of diminishing returns will raise its head, the RS600 is so good, that despite what laser, true 4K, and a top of the line lens brings in, that most will not find the improvements enough to pony up the difference in cost. I'm sure the increased lumens, finer resolution of both the 4K chips and better lens will be obvious but I don't think it would be substantial enough except on the largest of home theater screens to make it a slam dunk over the RS600, and at that price. Perhaps lasers will be able to truly allow HDR to 'shine' through over incandescent sources which would certainly give it another big plus over all other 4K/eshift lamp based pjs.
........can crank the iris way down and get OLED like contrast. Much as I love my RS600, this is in another league. But, you need $35K !!
I think the law of diminishing returns will raise its head, the RS600 is so good, that despite what laser, true 4K, and a top of the line lens brings in, that most will not find the improvements enough to pony up the difference in cost. I'm sure the increased lumens, finer resolution of both the 4K chips and better lens will be obvious but I don't think it would be substantial enough except on the largest of home theater screens to make it a slam dunk over the RS600, and at that price. Perhaps lasers will be able to truly allow HDR to 'shine' through over incandescent sources which would certainly give it another big plus over all other 4K/eshift lamp based pjs.
New show room? News to me. Is it in Rochester where the warehouse is located?
Looks like I'll be taking a little road trip come January!
I'll wait until a bit later in the year. I used to live in the Syracuse/Auburn area and I need to avoid things like "lake effect" and "snow belt".
Mike, do you know any of the specs about the new room the RS4500 will be shown in? I'm curious about the screen material and size of the screen as well as aspect ratio. I really hope something like the ST100 (or another unity gain material) will be used. A nice alternative might be the Elightor 4K material. I've never seen that in person but I'd love to see how it stacks up to a non-AT material.
A quick look at the weather forecast should solve that issue. ;)
14' wide x 19' deep x 10' high room. Two seats. Screen will be AT using V6 fabric. 120" wide 2.35 aspect ratio. Viewing will be 12'. Room will feature Triad speakers in a 7.2.4 setup.
sounds like a dream room lol...
Just spoke with JVC regarding the RS4500. Looks like around 4 weeks delay. They are working on the firmware and want to make sure the projector performs the best that it can.
Just sold my RS600.Now what will you do while you are waiting for your new projector...or do you also have multiple projectors like Craig does?
Wow, Mike...are you getting the RS4500
Ordered a chief mount for a reviewer that said he will be getting one of these shortly after CES. :)
Must be one of the first production units, eh ?
I should be getting hold of one of these shortly after CES. I'm actually on a tight timeline to get the review done as they want it for the May projector issue of Sound and Vision. Here's hoping this thing lives up to the hype!!!
I should be getting hold of one of these shortly after CES. I'm actually on a tight timeline to get the review done as they want it for the May projector issue of Sound and Vision. Here's hoping this thing lives up to the hype!!!
There is a slight chance I might go after all, despite my getting sick last year at CES - for a month afterwards. I swore I wouldn't go this year. But with the RS4500 calling............. ;)
What screen will you be using?
120" diagonal Stewart Studiotek 100 (1.78:1). A bit small for this projector overall but it is what it is. I can't go taller, though I could go wider one day. But I have the biggest screen of all our writers, and arguably the most controlled environment for light (100% light controlled any time of day).
120" diagonal Stewart Studiotek 100 (1.78:1). A bit small for this projector overall but it is what it is. I can't go taller, though I could go wider one day. But I have the biggest screen of all our writers, and arguably the most controlled environment for light (100% light controlled any time of day).
I'm not sure that your screen is all that small for this projector. 3000 lumens always looks bright on paper. But, calibrate it, close the manual iris down for best native contrast, engage the color filter watching 4K UHD Blu Rays, and use 1/3 or 2/3rds power, and it seems to me to be on par brightness wise with the RS600. But with a killer lans and native 4K ( among other things ).
How many foot lamberts are you getting Kris ? On my 122" 1.78:1 Cima Neve, I'm currently at -6 or 7 clicks on my iris ( and auto 1 ) which seems just right brightness wise with Blu Ray. With 280 or so hours on the lamp, I'm around 15 foot lamberts with those settings. I was originally around 18 foot lamberts at -8 / auto 1 with a brand new lamp. If I can get an RS4500, I might be happy with -15 clicks on 2/3rd's power.
I am really interested to see what HDR looks like on a screen like Kris's, when using the RS4500.
With one click away from max iris closed I am at about 16-17 fL. If I go that one extra click it drops to like 9! Eesh! My lamp has close to 500 hours now I think, I'd have to look. Rock solid light engine so far. I've actually been thinking about going through and doing a full touch up on all my video calibrations but with the 4500 coming soon and some work travel in between then and now, seems like a lot of work for what would amount to maybe watching 2-3 movies before I'm installing the 4500.
Nice! Did you buy one, Mike? 8) Craig Peer did, didn't he?
Can't really buy one until they exist. ;)
I thought you pre-ordered one for yourself? Anyway, here they come! I'd be interested in a comparison between it and the current RS-500/600. :)
Still hope I can do that. Maybe I will know more after tomorrow !
Kris do you have a computer that can output a 4K signal? If not I might be able to bring something over. I know that most people here probably don't use their HT as a computer screen (I DO!) but I find it to be the ultimate torture test for sharpness and uniformity.
Are you sure you are in low lamp ? I can't close the iris down that far and still have 16 - 17 foot lamberts, except maybe in high lamp. But black levels sure look good. I'm interested to see what dynamic laser dimming brings to the party !
Not sure if mine does or not, my laptop has a 4K screen though. Where are you located?
Wow, no pressure on me huh???
Wow, no pressure on me huh???
• There are no production JVC Z1/RS4500 projectors available yet, and what you have seen so-far at all venues are pre-production units hand built for demonstration.
• None of them conform to the full advertised release specification.
• JVC will not be shipping production units until they are satisfied that they perform fully to the advertised specifications.
• It is difficult to predict the timing of engineering to a release-state product.
• NO production units have been released for review or testing, so the test results published by the German magazine [AudioVision] can only be based on pre-production hardware/firmware like that you have seen, and will therefore be inaccurate. There are also other considerations like the source equipment and media that will have had an impact on their tests.
We have the first production units being delivered at the end of January 2017. As the unit here [at CES] is pre-production, my suggestion is that you come along to our showroom to see the finished article, rather than draw any conclusion from what you have seen so-farWhere suffice to say this is precisely what I will be doing and so thank you kindly for the invitation :)
" Good things come to those who wait ". I hate waiting ! Then again, we are waiting for a projector that you could watch for 10 years without it losing significant brightness. Ironic, eh? Thanks Nigel ! And sorry I missed you at CES.Indeed. We all know about not paying attention to the performance of pre-production units leading up to a product release but the thing that really got the cat amongst the pigeons here was a 'professional' AV magazine publishing what was reportedly the first official review with measurements a production unit seemingly with JVC's authorization and approval... How is that even possible? :o
Indeed. We all know about not paying attention to the performance of pre-production units leading up to a product release but the thing that really got the cat amongst the pigeons here was a 'professional' AV magazine publishing what was reportedly the first official review with measurements a production unit seemingly with JVC's authorization and approval... How is that even possible? :o
Anyway, fortunately the wait is nearly over! Thank God! I'm exhausted!
I think my situation is being exacerbated by the fact that I am definitely starting to suffer withdrawal symptoms with respect to my addiction to high quality AV... And getting around CES is driving me nuts... So I figure whilst I am here I should definitely go check out a DOLBY CINEMA and I just looked and there is in fact one here in Las Vegas with all the bells and whistles… They are showing the new Underworld movie… So here are my options: 2 hours spent in queues at CES or 2 hours spent staring at Kate Beckinsale’s rear end tightly jammed into black latex in Dolby Vision HDR with decent WCG color and up to 100nits/30fL lumens and 1,000,000:1 contrast … Mmmm, let me see, which should I choose? :D
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I sold my RS600 a lot quicker than I expected. While I have other projectors here, none of them are 4K. My Oppo arrives Tuesday, but it will be a few more weeks before I know which projector I go with. Right now the leading candidates are RS4500 and RS620. After having an RS600 in my dedicated room, the RS45 (which really throws a good image) is a disappointment.That's interesting... I did not know you were shopping for a projector Mike :)
Unless I am mistaken JVC's pre-existing track record to date with respect to all of its projectors has been such that the published technical performance figures very closely mirror the reality and post-calibration at that... which can't be said of all brands... And so, it should be not unrealistic to expect close to 3,000 Lumens calibrated and not: '3,000-Lumens-achieved-by-incorrectly-boosting-the-grey-scale-blue-or-green-components-to-achieve-falsely-higher-brightness-and-hence-not-really-3,000-lumens'. Consequently, given JVC have stated they will be delivering the published specs (where I have noted that they have stopped using the word 'forecast' to us now where that included contrast figures) we are therefore expecting 3,000 lumens with pretty accurately and correctly balanced greyscale out of the box and not with the blue component for instance jacked up by 30-40% to artificially boost the brightness figure... This would not be in keeping with JVC's track record to date and we therefore do not think it would be appropriate for JVC to suddenly start doing that kind of thing now, given that they have not done so previously.
So when I said we are looking forward to confirmation with respect to which units JVC finally acknowledge are indeed production units, this will be what we are expecting and hoping for and with good reason. Where for example, 2,600 lumens post calibration would not qualify, nor if the greyscale is significantly out of whack out of the box.
Where all we want is what has been promised. Nothing more. Nothing less. I do not consider this to be unreasonable.
Wherein, I cannot disagree with what Cine4Home has said regarding the fact that it would appear that all that has in fact been promised via the published data (as opposed to forecast to us previously) is 3,000 lumens... So we want and are expecting 3,000 lumens please... Where it is probably worth mentioning that for the same reasons this is what all of our customers are expecting and we don't want to let them down for obvious reasons.
And where I think it is also worth mentioning that I am of the view that with the projector delivering the promised 3,000 lumens, given this would obviously be with the iris wide open, this would allow at least some headroom for the iris to be closed down a bit and thereby boost the contrast and enhance the black floor and thereby help to offset what we are all expecting will unfortunately be a lower than forecast ON/OFF contrast performance... Where if the brightness is lower than promised (and forecast) then this double whammy would negate the ability to do this.
That said, because I always like to remain impartial, I would also like to point out that it would not be fair or realistic to expect everything to be perfect at launch with the initial launch firmware... where it is common and to be expected for there to be at least some technical bugs, issues, and even malfunctions, but which can be subsequently resolved via firmware updates. That said, as some others have already pointed out there are limits with respect to what can be achieved via firmware updates. But fortunately it's not long to wait now until we will be obtaining the necessary confirmation as to what's what... The wait is going to be painful though! ;) :)
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My review unit will ship this week and I will be knee deep in measurements and such next weekend.
My review unit will ship this week and I will be knee deep in measurements and such next weekend.
Sounds great! I can't wait to hear what you think. Right now you have an X750, right? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the differences in picture quality, HDR performance and anything in general that sticks out between these models.^^^^ +1 what he said! :)
A lot of people are looking forward to Kris's hands on review. Not just the numbers, I am also very interested in his thoughts on the image, especially with HDR on his size screen.What is Kris's screen size? :)
I believe Kris has a 120" 1:78 Stewart ST100.
I have confirmed, the dynamic dimming feature was not shown Thursday, Friday or Saturday at CES. Laser dynamic dimming will make a difference and not just talking with fades to black.
I have confirmed, the dynamic dimming feature was not shown Thursday, Friday or Saturday at CES. Laser dynamic dimming will make a difference and not just talking with fades to black.
Do you know if there is also a functioning mechanical iris like the current models in tandem with the laser modulation?
Or is the mechanical iris fixed, but adjustable as an additional fine tune control over brightness only, such as -10 for hitting 16fl precisely, then the laser dimming is the only 'auto iris' type function after that point?
If no mechanical auto iris, then contrast will not increase the lower the APL content is projected. That would be a slight shame.
Will this be available day 1 on production units when they arrive in the US?
I have confirmed, the dynamic dimming feature was not shown Thursday, Friday or Saturday at CES. Laser dynamic dimming will make a difference and not just talking with fades to black.This is great news Mike! Thank you. :)
Yes, it is part of the final firmware, but like the VW5000, I am sure that the RS4500 will get additional firmware updates to improve the projector, after shipping to owners.I alluded to this on another forum Mike, and you are absolutely correct here... It's worth mentioning that the SONY 5000ES took about 9 months worth of firmware updates to resolve all the issues at launch, and with this kind of early generation laser projection technology it should be expected that not everything will be absolutely perfect at launch, and there will be further enhancements to come via firmware updates. So excellent point Mike :)
I believe Kris has a 120" 1:78 Stewart ST100.Thanks David. That's a great screen to be reviewing this projector. Perfect. :)
This is great news Mike! Thank you. :)
There's been quite a lot of conflicting information about this new projector on the various forums, and even some early AV magazine reviews (!) so I personally have mentally disregarded all of that and I am now simply waiting for Kris' review, including his what we can be absolutely sure will be accurate and reliable measurements of what we know for sure is the final production unit (go on say it SEEGS108 ;)), whereas the same cannot be said for sure about absolutely all other reported performance information to date, including not even just now at CES, and would like to helpfully recommend to anyone else who is concerned about things that they have read about this projector, that they might like to do so too... There's a ludicrous amount of conflicting information out there at the moment... It's not long to wait now, only a matter of days! Where even my own zero level of patience can extend to that! ;) :D
I alluded to this on another forum Mike, and you are absolutely correct here... It's worth mentioning that the SONY 5000ES took about 9 months worth of firmware updates to resolve all the issues at launch, and with this kind of early generation laser projection technology it should be expected that not everything will be absolutely perfect at launch, and there will be further enhancements to come via firmware updates. So excellent point Mike :)
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Maybe competitors are spreading fake news ! There are just too many pre - production models floating around. JVC should have spray painted " Pre - production " on the case, so there was no mistaking them for final production models!I think you may be onto something there Craig, I could have sworn I saw "SPONSORED BY SONY" at the bottom of that German AV Magazine review of the JVC RS4500/Z1! ;) ::) ;D
I agree there's too much conflicting information out there at the moment and I think certain people have drawn conclusions too soon...IMO everything was fine until that German AV magazine review... That was the trigger here... And I have to say you can hardly blame everyone for reacting to that the way everyone did, what with it having the appearance of being a professional review in an AV magazine with lab data and thereby bona fide information relating to production units and authorised and approved by JVC... Where IMO magazine reviews should never be done with respect to a pre-production unit of any product in any industry, or at the very least make it extremely clear at the top of the 'review' that it's pre-production and hence not accurately representative of the finished product! Totally irresponsible if you ask me, but that's just my opinion :-\
For those of us (including me) who don't have a "huge" screen, the brightness capabilities of the Z1 should be adequate.Indeed :D
I think you may be onto something there Craig, I could have sworn I saw "SPONSORED BY SONY" at the bottom of that German AV Magazine review of the JVC RS4500/Z1! ;) ::) ;D
IMO everything was fine until that German AV magazine review... That was the trigger here... And I have to say you can hardly blame everyone for reacting to that the way everyone did, what with it having the appearance of being a professional review in an AV magazine with lab data and thereby bona fide information relating to production units and authorised and approved by JVC... Where IMO magazine reviews should never be done with respect to a pre-production unit of any product in any industry, or at the very least make it extremely clear at the top of the 'review' that it's pre-production and hence not accurately representative of the finished product! Totally irresponsible if you ask me, but that's just my opinion :-\
Mike, you are a gentleman with respect to your glass-half-full perspective of the review, but IMO that is quite simply not a good review, but which is now understandable now that the whistle has been blown regarding it being a pre-production unit
Indeed :D
But playing Devil's Advocate here, given we are talking a whopping $35,000 is "ADEQUATE" really OK? Or would 'GOOD', 'VERY GOOD' or 'EXCELLENT' be more appropriate given the price tag? :-\
I can't answer that because IMO this is going to boil down to personal preference, and some peoples' personal preference might prefer the video performance of the new JVC RS620/9500 on 'non-huge' screens and save $25,000 in the process... ;) Who knows? :)
We were kind of hoping to be able to use the RS4500/Z1 projector for a very wide range of applications, including some outside-the-box-extraordinary-by-definition-type-applications involving "huge" 7 metre / 23 feet wide screens and the like, but we are now thinking that other possible solutions might be the better choice for these, such as for example using the new RS620/X9500, which is why I am very interested to see a side-by-side comparison versus the RS4500/Z1... I will be having many opportunities to see precisely this within the next few weeks or so, where I will be sure to post on here our findings, since I am sure others might find the comparison of interest... although we may not be the first to carry out such a direct comparison...
But right now all I am thinking about is Kris' review... C'mon, c'mon! :P
Having owned a Sim Lumis - also a $ 35K projector, I can tell you that the Lumis wasn't any brighter than the the RS4500. But, no lamp dimming is a big plus in my book, as is the sharpness and clarity of a super good lens.Agreed :)
Agreed :)
That said, in my opinion, but just my opinion, as long as you follow the 70/30 rule (as recommended by THX) lamps are not really a problem, and some might consider this to be the lesser evil as compared with a significant drop in contrast and raising of the black floor... whereas others might consider the lamp dimming to be the greater evil... so like I said it's all down to personal preference ;)
As far as I am concerned I am afraid that JVC's unrivalled contrast performance of its other projectors has made me spoilt for choice with respect to anything less! And hence this has become my reference standard... Where we all know that I am not the only person to be thinking this... Which is why it was music to my ears to hear confirmation from Mike that with respect to the unit being demoed at CES this was not using the dynamic laser dimming that should mean comparatively significantly improved black floor with the production units of the RS4500/Z1 :)
One can buy a lot of lamps for the increased cost of a laser version :)
Well I have decided. An RS4500 will be headed my way. :)
I had a feeling when you announced the RS600 was for sale you would be getting one. ;) 8)
Well I have decided. An RS4500 will be headed my way. :)
Awesome!! I'm sure the decision to choose the RS4500 over the 620 was a difficult one.... :P
Well you do get to use the dynamic dimming with HDR content. :)
Hearing nice info on the RS4500, performance wise. :)What date will Kris be posting his full review on Sound & Vision's website? :)
What date will Kris be posting his full review on Sound & Vision's website? :)
I believe he said, May issue.Blimey, MAY edition Sound & Vision?! I was hoping that Kris’ review would be the first reliable information confirming real world performance figures… However, even though the MAY edition probably comes out in APRIL that’s one hell of a long wait! :-[
I've started in on the review. Got the projector setup yesterday for initial measurements and check out. Today I will be doing more thorough measurements for light output and contrast post calibration. Just some early observations: Does not have the same scaling artifacts as the Sony 4K line with 1080p resolution patterns, they actually look like they should... The new lens is exceptional and has eliminated one of the common complaints I've seen with JVCs... The 4500 does not suffer from the clipping issues near black. With brightness at zero black is clipped appropriately at digital 16 and digital 17 is clearly resolved. This is out of the box, before calibration...Very interesting! Thanks for this Kris. Brilliant! :)
After I finish my measurements today I will probably chime in to confirm or dispel some of the rumors we've seen in regards to light output and contrast. I can say that the dynamic laser modulation has a PROFOUND influence on perceived contrast and so far has almost zero noticeable artifacts in use.Yes please! :D
I know ANSI contrast is a bit trickier to measure, but do you plan on including a quick dirty measurement? I'm most curious if ANSI is higher than the eshift units. Given the lens on this projector and the lack of the eshift glass, I'm hoping it's raised a bit.
I expect ANSI to be higher.
Me too. I'm hoping to see 400:1 or more. :)
I think the 4500 is going to look more like a DLP, but with great contrast.
No banding issues so far, but if there is content specific you'd like me to look at I'm all ears.
Kris, a less technical detail, I'm interested in how loud it is relatively speaking. My PJ is soffit mounted not far from my head and I'm worried this one will be too loud. Maybe that's something you can share before the review.
I can say that the dynamic laser modulation has a PROFOUND influence on perceived contrast...
Does that imply that NATIVE looks poor?
I will let Kris answer it, but I am happy camper. :)
Does that imply that NATIVE looks poor?
Do you have Lucy on blu-ray? There's a scene at the beginning of the film where the Sony 4K's are exhibiting quite a bit of banding and posterization:
JVC (eshift) vs Sony
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/184542
Here's a close up where I've highlighted the issues:
(Click to see the full resolution image)
(http://i.imgur.com/U5GEDuV.png)
Posterization shown in the top large red box, and banding shown in the bottom two red boxes
This type of banding and posterization happens quite frequently on the Sony 4K's from what I've seen. That shot above shows the issue quite well IMO.
Native is lower than the current JVC line but in line with what I saw from the Sony and Epson's depending on how you have it setup. So not poor, but definitely a step back from the other JVCs. But the laser modulation goes a long way to filling in gaps.
Hi Kris, I posted this on AVS but will repeat it here. I think going forward with these laser projectors, I think the most useful information would be contrast ratio measured at multiple APL levels, in addition to the regular 50% ANSI measurement.
What I really want to know,
At 16fl, what is the contrast ratio at 1% APL.
We know dimming takes care of 0%, then 1% through 4% is critical information and will actually tell us a lot.
For Eg, my X7000 at Low lamp -10 it does this:
0% - 48,571:1
1% - 45,945:1
2% - 15,962:1
3% - 6,273:1
4% - 3,238:1
If you could grab those measurements and let us know, I know it would just put a lot of us at ease.
Have you got your projector already Mike?
What are you using for proper measurement patterns for each of these APLs? Also, the laser function on this is different than say the Epson, so measuring it more traditionally applies more to this than it does the Epson presently. But I could do something along these lines with the proper patterns.
Kris,
I would be curious of your take of how much more detail the RS4500 has over the RS500 in terms of detail on native 4K UHD BD content from your seating distance to the screen. Is it pretty subtle? Moderate? Or large? Thanks.
Looking at the same scene with the standard Blu-ray of Lucy it looks nearly identical to the JVC in your high resolution pic. None of the banding that I see in your pic of the Sony. So looks all clear here.
I think this is going to be hard to quantify. I really think this comes down to screen size, screen material (which I think is going to be extremely important going into 4K), seated distance and visual acuity. Though I'm sure he'll still give us his subjective opinion. Due to the higher brightness and probably high ANSI contrast I don't doubt he'll have something favorable to say on the matter. :)
Hi Kris, I just used the AVS709HD patterns, they have 0% black, 1% grey, 2%, 3%, 4% grey fields etc. It will at least tell you the luminance levels at those points, then when divided into the white peak you have a number.Javs, given that's a Blu-Ray Disc that's not reference... For accuracy you must use a reference pattern generator like the Murideo SIX-G 4K HDR for example... Just checking that you know / are aware of this, which I am sure you are... There are some comparatively less expensive but still good pattern generators out there, so given you are clearly very much into your measurements (which is great) you might want to think about investing in one... It's well worth it IMO ;) :)
Javs, given that's a Blu-Ray Disc that's not reference... For accuracy you must use a reference pattern generator like the Murideo SIX-G 4K HDR for example... Just checking that you know / are aware of this, which I am sure you are... There are some comparatively less expensive but still good pattern generators out there, so given you are clearly very much into your measurements (which is great) you might want to think about investing in one... It's well worth it IMO ;) :)
While I agree that pattern generators are ideal, as long as the patterns are vetted they should be fine even if sourced from a Blu. And the AVS disc is fine in that regard.Mmmmm, there seems to be mixed opinions regarding this, so I'll just say that what I just posted is the THX professional video calibration guidelines so it's up to whoever whether or not they choose to follow these... Where we do, and for what it's worth we have experienced first hand some significant variances with respect to signal outputs across blu-ray discs and different blu-ray players... It's quite simply not reference. But of course everyone is entitled to form their own opinion and I don't want to kick off an argument, so each to their own... ;)
Mmmmm, there seems to be mixed opinions regarding this, so I'll just say that what I just posted is the THX professional video calibration guidelines so it's up to whoever whether or not they choose to follow these... Where we do, and for what it's worth we have experienced first hand some significant variances with respect to signal outputs across blu-ray discs and different blu-ray players... It's quite simply not reference. But of course everyone it entitled to form their own opinion and I don't want to kick of an argument so each to their own... ;)
It is a good argument. There are test discs that have been verified for accuracy of the pattern, the AVS disc is one of them as is the S&M disc. But I agree that players may distort the signal, but the Oppo isn't one of them and has had its output verified to be as accurate as any test generator. For test generators I have a Radiance Pro, DVDO 4K TPG, and a Videoforge. I also have test discs from S&M, THX, Video Essentials, AVS709, Marvell, and Ted's disc.Variance across discs is not the only issue, but variance across players as well, and then there are other influencing factors... Or let me put it this way, if you were to attend the THX professional video calibration Levels 1 & 2 you would be specifically told NOT to do this, for the reasons I have stated... Take away from that whatever you like and of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions... Like I said, I don't want to get into an argument, so let's leave it there... ;)
Hi Kris, I posted this on AVS but will repeat it here. I think going forward with these laser projectors, I think the most useful information would be contrast ratio measured at multiple APL levels, in addition to the regular 50% ANSI measurement.
What I really want to know,
At 16fl, what is the contrast ratio at 1% APL.
We know dimming takes care of 0%, then 1% through 4% is critical information and will actually tell us a lot.
For Eg, my X7000 at Low lamp -10 it does this:
0% - 48,571:1
1% - 45,945:1
2% - 15,962:1
3% - 6,273:1
4% - 3,238:1
If you could grab those measurements and let us know, I know it would just put a lot of us at ease.
Variance across discs is not the only issue, but variance across players as well, and then there are other influencing factors... Or let me put it this way, if you were to attend the THX professional video calibration Levels 1 & 2 you would be specifically told NOT to do this, for the reasons I have stated... Take away from that whatever you like and of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions... Like I said, I don't want to get into an argument, so let's leave it there... ;)
I've had many conversations about this with the guys that created the THX program, Michael has been to my house many times. For calibration it is always ideal to use a pattern generator (this also speeds up the process) but for measurements such as contrast as long as you are using vetted patterns with a player that is known to output HDMI signals correctly (which the Oppo is), there is no difference between this and a pattern generator. This may not be the case for all players out there, but in the case of the Oppo BDP-105 (which is what I'm using in this case) it is.Absolutely fair enough :)
For my calibrated viewing (17 fL) using the laser in mid power, aperture at -8, near long throw and with the dynamic dimming activated in mode 2:Kris you are an absolute LEGEND!!!! :D
0=67K:1
1%=20K:1
2%=10K:1
3%=6300:1
4%=3500:1
For my calibrated viewing (17 fL) using the laser in mid power, aperture at -8, near long throw and with the dynamic dimming activated in mode 2:
0=67K:1
1%=20K:1
2%=10K:1
3%=6300:1
4%=3500:1
WOW. That is a little unexpected. We can expect a lot more contrast if you stopped the iris down to maximum is that right? -8 if its in line with current JVC's is about half way closed.Javs, what's your opinion regarding the fact the X7000 figures have only a small decrease in contrast between 0% and 1% APL but the drop is a lot greater with the RS4500/Z1... What's your opinion regarding that?
Thanks so much Kris.
Question, with the Dynamic dimming mode active as it is, why is 0% not infinity, or completely off?
If 0% truly does switch off, and 1% is 20k:1 that's the level I have from my RS500 wide open at 1%, and by damn, thats not bad at all, I will buy this thing if that is the case.
Javs, what's your opinion regarding the fact the X7000 figures have only a small decrease in contrast between 0% and 1% APL but the drop is a lot greater with the RS4500/Z1... What's your opinion regarding that?
Much better contrast numbers than we were lead to believe. Sounds like this is going to be a phenomenal projector. I would also like to hear about the HDR performance.
Bar 17 could be slightly darker on my unit at the positions I actually watch content... I tend to assume 17 is fine if I can barely see it with my face to the screen... bar 17 visible, dark as hell or not, is not technically clipping :)
Could be that, or, could be the dimming playing some part, I dont get why this is not infinity if dimming was on.
Otherwise the only time my JVC considerably drops at 1% is iris-15:
0% - 112,307:1
1% - 73,000:1
2% - 20,277:1
3% - 7,643:1
4% - 3,518:1
This is the RS500 low lamp -0:
0% - 22,750:1
1% - 22,377:1
2% - 10,073:1
3% - 4,105:1
4% - 2,363:1
Especially when all the other improvements are taken into account. I just watched " Deepwater Horizon " in 4K on my RS600. Going to have to use this as a test disc when I get the RS4500. Stellar picture quality.Poor you Craig, having to make do with a RS600 until you receive your RS4500! How on earth are you coping? ;)
Digital 17 is not an issue with the 4500 like it is with other models.Good to know :)
Hi Kris,
I just used the AVS709HD patterns, they have 0% black, 1% grey, 2%, 3%, 4% grey fields etc. It will at least tell you the luminance levels at those points, then when divided into the white peak you have a number.
I would be interested in those measurements with a chart similar to what projection dream uses, but I don't know where to get those.
To do this correctly you need to use the Projectiondream approach and ask them for the patterns. I asked for them a while ago, but I had no luck.
Poor you Craig, having to make do with a RS600 until you receive your RS4500! How on earth are you coping? ;)
Could be that, or, could be the dimming playing some part, I dont get why this is not infinity if dimming was on.
Oh I think you could probably figure out why.
Dimming was on ;)
Well now I am suitably confused as to why 0% measured any black at all, should it not be completely off with 0%?In short, this is why 'INFINITE' contrast ratios are B.S. ;)
Thanks for doing those measurements by the way, that is very impressive and certainly don't seem to be giving up on too much with regards to 1 through 4%.
In short, this is why 'INFINITE' contrast ratios are B.S. ;)
Unlike the Epson, it doesn't turn completely off. So you don't get that jarring off/on with fades or dark sequences but you also don't get a true infinite black.
Nonsense.
The LS10k literally shuts off at 0%. I have stared directly into the lens while it does this.
Im just confused as to why the Z1 didn't apparently do this if 0% was projected and dimming was confirmed to be on.
While some like the LS10000's ability to go to absolute black, several have complained about the sudden jump in brightness when the laser comes back on. So you can either go for the absolute spec or you can go with what works the best. Of course in a perfect world, we would have both, but looks like you can't have your cake and eat it too. At least not yet. :)
I noticed you said you're using mode 2 for the laser dimming. Does mode 1 turn the laser off completely?
I agree with you Mike. The LS definitely kind of punched you in the face when just one single pixel came on and the thing just suddenly sprung out of full black. But the 1% Z1 measurements look good to me, far higher than the LS probably can do. In fact checking Projection Dreams LS measurements just now, at 1% they show only 6500:1, but thats Iris open, I can assume iris in the middle positino will be 8-9k:1 at best at 1% APL in the best case scenario, the Z1 still doubles the LS 1% contrast levels and this is great.
I just don't get why then JVC spent all this time touting infinity contrast, since we all know if the laser is on at all, this is not, and never will be infinity. I always believed this was because they can and did flat out shut off the laser. So there has got to be a mode or some such to have the laser fully switch off. I would accept a very mild pump with this, I know a lot of guys differ... But since with my full fades, I am looking at at least a few hundred thousand K:1 after the dust has settled on the fade, and I can still see grey essentially, I was hoping that would be black finally.
I agree with you Mike. The LS definitely kind of punched you in the face when just one single pixel came on and the thing just suddenly sprung out of full black. But the 1% Z1 measurements look good to me, far higher than the LS probably can do. In fact checking Projection Dreams LS measurements just now, at 1% they show only 6500:1, but thats Iris open, I can assume iris in the middle positino will be 8-9k:1 at best at 1% APL in the best case scenario, the Z1 still doubles the LS 1% contrast levels and this is great.
I just don't get why then JVC spent all this time touting infinity contrast, since we all know if the laser is on at all, this is not, and never will be infinity. I always believed this was because they can and did flat out shut off the laser. So there has got to be a mode or some such to have the laser fully switch off. I would accept a very mild pump with this, I know a lot of guys differ... But since with my full fades, I am looking at at least a few hundred thousand K:1 after the dust has settled on the fade, and I can still see grey essentially, I was hoping that would be black finally.
Sounds good. At 1.3 gain on a 14' Microperf screen, how well will this PJ light things up? Any measurements, thoughts, etc. ? Is this PJ for larger screens?
Thanks for the heads up Kris (and Mike).
Unlike the Epson, it doesn't turn completely off. So you don't get that jarring off/on with fades or dark sequences but you also don't get a true infinite black.
Nonsense.
The LS10k literally shuts off at 0%. I have stared directly into the lens while it does this.
Im just confused as to why the Z1 didn't apparently do this if 0% was projected and dimming was confirmed to be on.
While some like the LS10000's ability to go to absolute black, several have complained about the sudden jump in brightness when the laser comes back on...So not quite NONSENSE eh Javs? But don't worry, you are forgiven already ;) :)
The LS definitely kind of punched you in the face when just one single pixel came on and the thing just suddenly sprung out of full black... I just don't get why then JVC spent all this time touting infinity contrast, since we all know if the laser is on at all, this is not, and never will be infinity. I always believed this was because they can and did flat out shut off the laser. So there has got to be a mode or some such to have the laser fully switch off. I would accept a very mild pump with this, I know a lot of guys differ... But since with my full fades, I am looking at at least a few hundred thousand K:1 after the dust has settled on the fade, and I can still see grey essentially, I was hoping that would be black finally.Because the 'INFINITE' contrast is a fudge, and not in fact true infinite contrast at all, the projector can't do it properly. It's as simple as that. ;)
So not quite NONSENSE eh Javs? But don't worry, you are forgiven already ;) :)
So-called 'INFINITE' contrast ratios ARE unfortunately B.S. :)
I can in fact make any projector I like have 'INFINITE' contrast by simply pulling out the power cable or simply covering the lens whenever an image fades to 100% black... But let me ask you this... What happens if you were to feed any such projector reporting to have 'INFINITE' contrast, like the EPSON LS10000/10500, a video signal that is not 100% black? Even, as you say, a single pixel that is not black? And so has at least some of the image being lit? Does the black level remain the same? In other words, is the portion of the image that is black the same black level as when a complete fade to black? Yes or no? Because with true 'INFINITE' contrast the answer would be YES... But the answer is not yes, is it? Consequently, simply shutting off the light source completely if or whenever there is a 100% fade to black is most certainly NOT in fact truly 'INFINITE' contrast at all, but merely a gimmick and IMO a highly annoying one too, because of the significant jumps and disproportionate changes in black level between 100% black and everything else. OK? :)
Because the 'INFINITE' contrast is a fudge, and not in fact true infinite contrast at all, the projector can't do it properly. It's as simple as that. ;)
And typically the real reason why projector manufacturers choose to, as you say, tout infinity contrast, is because that's almost always merely a smokescreen to try to hide the fact that the projector's native contrast is not comparatively good... For example, I haven't ever seen JVC by shy about touting the superior contrast ratios of their projectors, when the contrast ratios are in fact superb, have you? ;)
So you have only two choices, namely either have the light source shut off completely with 100% black but not everything else, or a proportionate reduction in luminosity in which case 100% black will not in fact yield zero cd/m2. Where it's a matter of personal preference, but I personally prefer the latter given IMO nothing destroys immersiveness more than an unnatural jarring with respect to the video image :)
That said, I don't like blacks being grey either, but I am extraordinarily fussy and so very difficult to please! :P
.
I am not sure why you are debating this with me. I didn't invent the infinity contrast ratio metric. But I do know that the manufacturers who have claimed it until today with JVC, I am talking Sony and Epson, both are able to shut the laser off in 100% black, thus there is no black level, thus when divided into white, its ON/OFF contrast ratio is infinite.
I know you are intelligent, but no need to try and drive this point home as if I dont understand the significance, the metric is not BS. It just means JVC in this case are not delivering on it.
The simple maths is this, in ON/OFF contrast, which almost all projectors are judged and sold if the projector has NO black level, there is zero luminance, and 150 nits peak white, then the ON/OFF contrast is unable to be calculated, this its infinity. If you are going to try and argue this point with me you are going to get very tired because I wont let up. :)
What happens if you were to feed any such projector reporting to have 'INFINITE' contrast, like the EPSON LS10000/10500, a video signal that is not 100% black?
If the video signal is supposed to be black, and it is not, then something is not set up right, hardly the projectors fault. If you are talking about a couple of pixels, Then it is no longer ON/OFF contrast is it? It then becomes a metric of ANSI contrast, which is why I asked for the Z1's measurements at 1 through 4% since I have been saying for months, not just in the Z1 thread which seems to be the only one you frequent much, but I have been saying it for months. With laser projectors, since they seem to be able to project (or lack thereof) TRUE black, then they need to be measured on ANSI measurements starting at 1% all the way up to the recognised 50% ANSI measurement.
Because with true 'INFINITE' contrast the answer would be YES...
If they are talking about Infinity ON/OFF contrast then they would be correct and the answer would be yes, you are once again talking about ANSI contrast, please understand the difference.
So you have only two choices, namely either have the light source shut off completely with 100% black but not everything else, or a proportionate reduction in luminosity in which case 100% black will not in fact yield zero cd/m2. Where it's a matter of personal preference, but I personally prefer the latter given IMO nothing destroys immersiveness more than an unnatural jarring with respect to the video image :)
Why do I only have two choices? How about a projector that can do 100k:1 at 1% APL, like I am sure the RS600 does at , and true black laser OFF at 0%. That's the best of all worlds, and for folks like yourself who dont like the 0% true black, have an option to turn it off, then the machine will do 150k:1 in black...
Oh, that's a shame. I like complete fade to black. In a light controlled room you are plunged into absolute darkness. Filmmakers often use this mechanic - no light, but plenty of sound - it's very effective, and it's always spoiled by light off the screen.
Will withhold final judgment until I see it for myself (hopefully next week).
I guess we could ask Kris, how does the JVC look when doing full fade to black with dynamic dimming on?
Sounds good. At 1.3 gain on a 14' Microperf screen, how well will this PJ light things up? Any measurements, thoughts, etc. ? Is this PJ for larger screens?
Thanks for the heads up Kris (and Mike).
It appears to me from the lumen numbers I've seen that the RS4500 is about the same brightness wise as your Lumis. Maybe a little brighter. I think my Lumis Host was spec'd at 3000 lumens, but I never measured that many. More like 2200 calibrated in high lamp. Of course my lamps dimmed rather rapidly, something that won't be a problem with the RS4500.
I am not sure why you are debating this with me... I know you are intelligent, but no need to try and drive this point home as if I dont understand the significance...How about we simply agree that it would be more representative and usefully indicative of actual video performance if, with respect to projectors such as the Epson 10000/10500, the native ON/OFF contrast was measured and published within the projector's published technical information, not by turning off the light source, but with the light output being set to whatever is the proportionate step down from all black 16 with singular white 235 pixel to full field black 16; and leave it at that. OK? :)
How about we simply agree that it would be more representative and usefully indicative of actual video performance if, with respect to projectors such as the Epson 10000/10500, the native ON/OFF contrast was measured and published within the projector's published technical information, not by turning off the light source, but with the light output being set to whatever is the proportionate step down from all black 16 with singular white 235 pixel to full field black 16; and leave it at that. OK? :)
How about we simply agree that it would be more representative and usefully indicative of actual video performance if, with respect to projectors such as the Epson 10000/10500, the native ON/OFF contrast was measured and published within the projector's published technical information, not by turning off the light source, but with the light output being set to whatever is the proportionate step down from all black 16 with singular white 235 pixel to full field black 16; and leave it at that. OK? :)
Better than my X750. Plus absolutely zero uniformity issues.
Has the Epson been measured at 1%? Curious to know the answer to that, to see how big of a jump it has coming out off infinity. It is probably just as easy for JVC to have set the projector up, to just turn off the light source in a full fade to black, so it sounds to me JVC selected not to, because overall it came across better when viewing. I will see if I can get any information.
How about we simply agree that it would be more representative and usefully indicative of actual video performance if, with respect to projectors such as the Epson 10000/10500, the native ON/OFF contrast was measured and published within the projector's published technical information, not by turning off the light source, but with the light output being set to whatever is the proportionate step down from all black 16 with singular white 235 pixel to full field black 16; and leave it at that. OK? :)
...I disagreed with you saying that the metric was BS, when it is not, the maths is real... I disagree with you only on a technicality...we are on the same page mate.Good to hear we're on the same page about this! :)
Without your A-lens around 27/30FL max depending on throw, on your Ultramatte 150 microperf (1.35 gain).
I'm not the video guy here, though the lumens are better on this JVC relative to my Lumis, is the increased CR of this PJ make the effect similar to CRTs in that you do not need high brightness to get a terrific contrasted picture?
For the typical film, where is the sweet spot in terms of brightness with a calibrated picture (Ft Lamberts) in a darkened HT environment that most here feel is ideal?
Thanks!
For the typical film, where is the sweet spot in terms of brightness with a calibrated picture (Ft Lamberts) in a darkened HT environment that most here feel is ideal? Thanks!
I'd say around 16 foot lamberts.Craig is absolutely bang on as per usual ;) To elaborate, THX professional video calibration guidelines stipulate 14-16fL for projectors displaying HD/2K resolution SDR video, and 30fL for 4K UHD and/or HDR, and 35fL for video display panels including TVs. This is the latest up to date best practice recommendations ;) Where it is perhaps worth mentioning that with respect to DOLBY CINEMAS, which utilize DOLBY VISION projectors, the video image is calibrated to be 30fL :)
Totally agree that adding "infinite" contrast as part of the spec just reduces overall credibility for JVC or any other producer doing the same... The Epson LS10000 hanging in my current cinema just annoys me when shutting off the laser between scenes, does not seem natural at all since the difference between "off" and "on" is such clearly noted...Very nice to bump into you on here Jon! Just to let you know I will be testing out a JVC RS4500/Z1 on your DREAMSCREEN ULTRAWEAVE V6 screen material next Tuesday... Should make for a good combination me thinks ;)
Very nice to bump into you on here Jon! Just to let you know I will be testing out a JVC RS4500/Z1 on your DREAMSCREEN ULTRAWEAVE V6 screen material next Tuesday... Should make for a good combination me thinks ;)
Craig is absolutely bang on as per usual ;) To elaborate, THX professional video calibration guidelines stipulate 14-16fL for projectors displaying HD/2K resolution SDR video, and 30fL for 4K UHD and/or HDR, and 35fL for video display panels including TVs. This is the latest up to date best practice recommendations ;) Where it is perhaps worth mentioning that with respect to DOLBY CINEMAS, which utilize DOLBY VISION projectors, the video image is calibrated to be 30fL :)
Very nice to bump into you on here Jon! Just to let you know I will be testing out a JVC RS4500/Z1 on your DREAMSCREEN ULTRAWEAVE V6 screen material next Tuesday... Should make for a good combination me thinks ;)
Kris, are you going to do motion testing to determine the response rate of the projector? My aging RS1 is not great when it comes to motion handling.
Isn't the 100 nit (~30ftL) standard for HDR only for Dolby Vision in commercial cinema?No. It is not only for Dolby Vision in commercial cinema. As stated in my previous post, it is also the THX professional video calibration recommendation with respect to consumer/domestic 4K UHD and HDR projected video images and also display panels, which includes TVs. Where the recommendation with respect to projected image with HD/2K and SDR is 14-16fL, so basically half that ;)
HDR10 on UHD blu-ray is encoded and intended to be played back with at least 1000 nits of peak white brightness for highlights in the image...Firstly, the 1,000 nits peak is relevant only with respect to video display panels such as TVs, not projectors; and good luck sourcing a home theater projector that can hit 1,000 nits! :P ;D
Same config that we will be using here, albeit our showroom has a limit of 13 feet width but I guess that´ll have to do... :) Also, the UltraWeave V6 will be showcased at the ISE show in Amsterdam come February 7.-10., alongside Alcons Audio and Barco...Well suffice to say I will be gatecrashing your party at the Alcons Audio and Barco booth! And looking forward to meeting you :)
It will be very interesting to see what the Radiance Pro brings to HDR calibration for projectors. I have one in my rack ready to go once that feature is enabled with the Calman software. It is interesting that THX specifies 30 fL for UHD content. I can see shooting for a peak white of 30 fL with HDR to preserve some headroom but for SDR 4K content that is really bright on a large screen. I tried 30 fL with standard Blu-ray to see what I thought and it was just way too much for my viewing. 16-17 fL seems to be a really great sweet spot in that it looks extremely vibrant and natural without much in the way of fatigue. Some occasional jumps from dark to bright sequences can be aggravating though.
It will be very interesting to see what the Radiance Pro brings to HDR calibration for projectors. I have one in my rack ready to go once that feature is enabled with the Calman software. It is interesting that THX specifies 30 fL for UHD content. I can see shooting for a peak white of 30 fL with HDR to preserve some headroom but for SDR 4K content that is really bright on a large screen. I tried 30 fL with standard Blu-ray to see what I thought and it was just way too much for my viewing. 16-17 fL seems to be a really great sweet spot in that it looks extremely vibrant and natural without much in the way of fatigue. Some occasional jumps from dark to bright sequences can be aggravating though.
Hi Kris
How much horse power (light output) would a projector need to provide 30ft lambert white peaks for HDR on a larger screen like mine (14' wide 2.40 1.3 gain)?
It will be very interesting to see what the Radiance Pro brings to HDR calibration for projectors. I have one in my rack ready to go once that feature is enabled with the Calman software. It is interesting that THX specifies 30 fL for UHD content. I can see shooting for a peak white of 30 fL with HDR to preserve some headroom but for SDR 4K content that is really bright on a large screen. I tried 30 fL with standard Blu-ray to see what I thought and it was just way too much for my viewing. 16-17 fL seems to be a really great sweet spot in that it looks extremely vibrant and natural without much in the way of fatigue. Some occasional jumps from dark to bright sequences can be aggravating though.My thoughts exactly Kris. But in case it's not obvious 4K UHD content is native, not upscaled, in other words if it's a pixel-shift-pseudo-4K or HD upscaled to 4K then the recommendation is the usual 14-16 fL... The 30 fL recommendation is specifically regarding HDR and/or native 4K UHD, wherein I am thinking that more often than not these come together, or at the very least the extent to which they transpire concomitantly is increasing and hence the 30fL or not 30fL with SDR 4K is somewhat a moot point... But as it happens I agree with you :)
Hi Kris
How much horse power (light output) would a projector need to provide 30ft lambert white peaks for HDR on a larger screen like mine (14' wide 2.40 1.3 gain)?
Mike has you covered there. For that kind of light output you'd be in high laser mode and would use the HDR color mode, so no filter. You lose a bit on red saturation but the rest of the colors are about the same. With that setup you'd get around 45-50,00:1 with the laser dimming enabled, so big jump from your Sim2.
What is the approximate loss of light output with the filter engaged vs HDR color mode?
On my screen I should be able to get a max of 37FL in scope and 58FL in 16:9 and that is in BT2020 mode. Max calibrated lumens in Rec709, max of 47FL scope and 83FL 16:9. Lack of brightness will not be a problem. :)
Obviously I will be closing down the iris/using medium power.
Thanks guys!
Mike, Kris, Craig :D, what type of output would I expect in 2.40 mode for a 4K HDR (peak white)? My throw to my 14' wide micro peer is ~26'.
Thanks!
Is it true that longer throw means higher CR and shorter throw is higher lumens? If so are there specs on the differences?
Also how does sharpness and chromatic aberrations change throughout the zoom range?
I would guess around 26/27FL without the DCI filter in place.
Thanks, Craig - so, this is approximately what it might be based on my throw @2.40?
Again, appreciate the help here...
Here is a nice fact for people. I think most people know how QC works. Usually a set percentage of units are pulled and checked to make sure the units randomly selected meet specification. Well here in the US, with the 4500, that percentage is as high as you can get. Yep, 100%. :)
Here is a nice fact for people. I think most people know how QC works. Usually a set percentage of units are pulled and checked to make sure the units randomly selected meet specification. Well here in the US, with the 4500, that percentage is as high as you can get. Yep, 100%. :)
It was me (Mike) that answered you and yes that is based on the 2.40 width of your screen. You will have much higher brightness when shooting 16:9 onto your 2.40 screen.
One of the things I do on my current Sony (1000) is use HIGH lamp mode for 2.35:1 zoom, and LOW lamp for 16:9 zoom. This has the nice side effect of normalising the brightness between the two presentation modes. I'll be looking to do the same with the Z1 through a combination of laser power/iris.
You can store lens settings, masking, fine convergence and anamorphic modes in a user memory.
In case anyone is interested, with respect to my handson with the JVC RS4500/Z1 this Tuesday/Wednesday, in addition to posting comprehensive measurements of the JVC RS4500/Z1 in action, I will also be including a direct side-by-side head-to-head comparison versus the SONY 1100 and JVC X7000/RS500, wherein I will be including the comparative measurements and relevant data for these also as part of my review report.
Where I am intending on carrying out my measurements over the course of Tuesday (with a run over into Wednesday if the projector arrives late from JVC) with the intention of posting all the details on here sometime on Wednesday :)
In case anyone is interested, with respect to my handson with the JVC RS4500/Z1 this Tuesday/Wednesday, in addition to posting comprehensive measurements of the JVC RS4500/Z1 in action, I will also be including a direct side-by-side head-to-head comparison versus the SONY 1100 and JVC X7000/RS500, wherein I will be including the comparative measurements and relevant data for these also as part of my review report.
Where I am intending on carrying out my measurements over the course of Tuesday (with a run over into Wednesday if the projector arrives late from JVC) with the intention of posting all the details on here sometime on Wednesday :)
What kind of screen and environment?We are currently mid-process of constructing our new demonstration centre so I will be carrying out this exercise at a good friend of mine and business associate's demo rooms; where I will have the choice of three screen sizes, namely circa 3 metres, 3.8 metres, and 4.5 metres wide; with I believe Seymour Enlightor AT screen material, but I will be confirming all the details in my review. And the environment will be a properly blacked out room with low level ambient light reflections.
We are currently mid-process of constructing our new demonstration centre so I will be carrying out this exercise at a good friend of mine and business associate's demo rooms; where I will have the choice of three screen sizes, namely circa 3 metres, 3.8 metres, and 4.5 metres wide; with I believe Seymour Enlightor AT screen material, but I will be confirming all the details in my review. And the environment will be a properly blacked out room with low level ambient light reflections.
I'm up and running as recently posted on AVS. I'll add also that the unit has quite a bit of fan noise in high laser mode, not nearly as much in mid. I'll be experimenting with all modes as the evening goes on. Have to get back to it as it's already 7:30pm!
I'm up and running as recently posted on AVS. I'll add also that the unit has quite a bit of fan noise in high laser mode, not nearly as much in mid. I'll be experimenting with all modes as the evening goes on. Have to get back to it as it's already 7:30pm!Keep it coming :)
Keep in mind that EN4K is close to 0.75 gain. I have EN4K.Thanks for the headsup Mike! I believe this is not the 4K version but one of the other two... I will obtain confirmation on Tuesday. That said, he's changed at least one of the screens since my last visit so he may have installed the 4K version... But either with I will be taking comprehensive measurements that will encompass accurately measuring the screen gain as opposed to relying on the published figures which you can Craig have astutely pointed out are almost always so inaccurate that they are meaningless. So I will be measuring what is it's ACTUAL gain and not whatever B.S. figure is listed... But Sssshhhh don't tell MR SEYMOUR I said this! ;) :D
I'll add also that the unit has quite a bit of fan noise in high laser mode...
Though it is not listed on Chief's site. They do make a custom mount for the RS4500. I mentioned this early on in this thread. The mount is VCM105J. Kris is using this mount and has provided some pictures. Really like that it has so much adjustability, for centering the projector. :)
Oh! :/
I really wish they exhausted out the back - at least that way the noise is directed away from the audience and not towards it... I also noted in the manual that they mention the heat might cause a heat haze on the image - so, again, why not exhaust out the back where this wouldn't be an issue...?
So this the new hangout? Nice little change from AVS.. nice to see some familiar faces (or names) :)
So this the new hangout? Nice little change from AVS.. nice to see some familiar faces (or names) :)Yes indeed... This is where the party is at Tony, and where only the best people hang-out, so you are more than welcome! ;) :)
I know you indicated that sync times were the same, but i did see this on the " other forum " - " I will also just quickly say, while loading some more test patterns and 4K clips up, the HDMI sync time is a joy compared to JVC's of past. "
I'm not seeing much difference in synch times in my setup, so maybe his is acting different than mine. I will investigate further with different signal paths and see if that makes a difference.
Looking forward to some real world impressions of the RS4500. I expect mine to arrive late next week.
Thanks for the headsup Mike! I believe this is not the 4K version but one of the other two... I will obtain confirmation on Tuesday. That said, he's changed at least one of the screens since my last visit so he may have installed the 4K version... But either with I will be taking comprehensive measurements that will encompass accurately measuring the screen gain as opposed to relying on the published figures which you can Craig have astutely pointed out are almost always so inaccurate that they are meaningless. So I will be measuring what is it's ACTUAL gain and not whatever B.S. figure is listed... But Sssshhhh don't tell MR SEYMOUR I said this! ;) :D
And I am interested, what is your opinion on the performance of the EN4K as a material? It is in fact one of four that I have short-listed for assessment and so I would value your opinion... How would you rate it? :)
Looking forward to measured light output. What is spec'd would work for me... but what's the real world output?? Congrats to those that have them!
EN4K is a good AT screen. I would also take a look at V6 DreamScreen. Really like that material.That's also on my short-list and in fact I have a 4.5m x 2.5m roll of it sitting right here waiting for testing and evaluation head-to-head against the others on my short-list, which is as per follows... in no particular order:
Looking forward to measured light output. What is spec'd would work for me... but what's the real world output?? Congrats to those that have them!You will be seeing light output measurements in just about every which way that's possible being posted on here ASAP following my evaluation tomorrow so watch this space... My review won't be as professional as Kris' review but will hopefully provide many of the answers and fill the void whilst everyone is waiting for Kris' review, myself included! ;) :D
I dug up an old AEMC light meter from years ago and tried to take some readings. It proved pretty useless unfortunately as anything but next to the screen proved too much for it. I may purchase another one locally tomorrow if I get a chance and try again.
I dug up an old AEMC light meter from years ago and tried to take some readings. It proved pretty useless unfortunately as anything but next to the screen proved too much for it. I may purchase another one locally tomorrow if I get a chance and try again.
So, got the Z1 up and running today... Sharp as a razor, that´s for sure...! Light output has not impressed me thus far, seems to be lower than the prototype? I only had a short time reviewing it, and putting the laser at high, iris at -8 and flicking between laser modulation 1 and 2 it does look quite nice. Still, not "sold" quite yet, need to get it calibrated ASAP.
I´ll revert with more impressions tomorrow! :)
What size / type screen are you using again ?
I am sure it is DreamScreen V6. :)
Calibration isn't going to change much as it is already 99% there out of the box. But it can confirm your settings in terms of desired fL on screen.
It's a 14 feet wide 0.8 gain DreamScreen V6 AT in cinescope format, so it's a pretty big screen indeed... I'll try looking through some familiar source material tomorrow, and I'm not saying it's 'dim', I was just a little surprised initially, might be me having just read too much on forums lately, and I also have the rs600 to a/b compare to which is kinda interesting too... :)
It's a 14 feet wide 0.8 gain DreamScreen V6 AT in cinescope format, so it's a pretty big screen indeed... I'll try looking through some familiar source material tomorrow, and I'm not saying it's 'dim', I was just a little surprised initially, might be me having just read too much on forums lately, and I also have the rs600 to a/b compare to which is kinda interesting too... :)
Mine is 9 feet wide and I am on mid laser and iris about -8 in SDR on a screen research acoustic transparent screen (with black backing behind it) gain should be about the same as yours.
In HDR I use mid laser and iris full open with the HDR color space, looks pretty impressive to me on 9 feet wide.
Mine is 9 feet wide and I am on mid laser and iris about -8 in SDR on a screen research acoustic transparent screen (with black backing behind it) gain should be about the same as yours.
In HDR I use mid laser and iris full open with the HDR color space, looks pretty impressive to me on 9 feet wide.
That's a pretty big screen - 83.4 square feet. 1600 lumens doesn't get you to much over 15 foot lamberts.
I´d also say that it needs to run in high laser mode and as such be placed in a technical room
Because of the noise?
It´s not very noisy in high laser mode, and the pitch / hum is pretty low in frequency. Still, I would personally not want that noise level inside my own cinema room...How hot does it get? A simple hush box could be the answer, which may or may not require its own cooling/ventilation system depending on how hot the projector gets :)
How hot does it get? A simple hush box could be the answer, which may or may not require its own cooling/ventilation system depending on how hot the projector gets :)
I actually use a hush box in my cinema, but over the years I've kind of opened it up as projectors got quieter - first I removed the port glass (improved ANSI CR) and then the front and back "doors" (improved airflow, which meant I could turn off the noisier cold air feed). I don't really want to go back to a closed box, particularly because of the port glass/ANSI issue...
My hope is that the extra noise is of the broadband type that disappears into the background rather than any kind of pitched whining. My old Barco CRT used to scream when the image got brighter, yet, funnily enough I never really had a problem with it due to the wow factor of having a home cinema :) These days my tolerances are much lower...
Outputting SDR / 4K / REC709 / 10-bit video from a Panasonic UB900 player (no HDfury is needed after last firmware update by the way...).
Outputting SDR / 4K / REC709 / 10-bit video from a Panasonic UB900 player (no HDfury is needed after last firmware update by the way...).
OT - What Firmware update is that, I thought the UB900 could always do SDR/Rec.709 without an HDFury. Or are you saying the UB900 can do SDR/Rec.2020 without an HDFury now?
I think I'll be moving my seating closer - don't tell my wife ! 8)
OT - What Firmware update is that, I thought the UB900 could always do SDR/Rec.709 without an HDFury. Or are you saying the UB900 can do SDR/Rec.2020 without an HDFury now?
I would never ever do that to anyone sir ;D wifes (at least mine) don't have a say in these matters ;) she can paint my living room purple with green dots, I don't care but don't mess with dads room :-X :-X :-X
I actually use a hush box in my cinema, but over the years I've kind of opened it up as projectors got quieter - first I removed the port glass (improved ANSI CR) and then the front and back "doors" (improved airflow, which meant I could turn off the noisier cold air feed). I don't really want to go back to a closed box, particularly because of the port glass/ANSI issue...
My hope is that the extra noise is of the broadband type that disappears into the background rather than any kind of pitched whining. My old Barco CRT used to scream when the image got brighter, yet, funnily enough I never really had a problem with it due to the wow factor of having a home cinema :) These days my tolerances are much lower...
I would never ever do that to anyone sir ;D wifes (at least mine) don't have a say in these matters ;) she can paint my living room purple with green dots, I don't care but don't mess with dads room :-X :-X :-X
A bit more testing;
- Light output is actually pretty decent. Certainly higher than the RS600, although not 1000 lumens higher as you´d need to dial down the iris to -8 to maintain dynamics on the Z1, but I´d say 2-500 lumens more (needs to be measured)...
- Colors and stability stellar... Outputting SDR / 4K / REC709 / 10-bit video from a Panasonic UB900 player (no HDfury is needed after last firmware update by the way...). Have not tested HDR / P3, but since screen is 14 feet wide I´d say those features would probably not be very usable... My guestimate would be that 10 feet width is the maximum for P3, and if you´d want to use today´s "TV HDR" as well; 5 feet max?? :)
- Laser dimming mode 2 seems more visible than mode 1. Need to test this more, but the dimming certainly does wonders in terms of dynamics.
- Sharpness and overall detailing is simply amazing, the V6 fabric really shines alongside this machine!! ;)
In summary I´d say sharpness and detailing are the two main characteristics differentiating this projector from the current RS-line. Although the Sony 4K´s are very sharp too, the Z1 seems even sharper. Dynamics are certainly good too, I really did not feel like it fell through in that regards either, and I´m a sucker for blacks... Not as good as the RS600 though, which is just amazing in terms of blacks and overall dynamics. So; good, but not best in terms of dynamics... Still, the added light output, the increased sharpness, and overall performance makes this a very nice unit indeed.
I´d also say that it needs to run in high laser mode and as such be placed in a technical room if you´re using a screen width of more than 10 feet since you do need to dial down the iris quite a lot (-8 or more) to get the dynamics flowing.
Sure, but we were unable to get it to output 4K at the same time until we installed the last firmware, for all I know it might be another reason for it suddenly working... :)
EDIT: If you would want P3 and no HDR you still would need to use a HDfury... As for getting 4K outputted while doing SDR / rec.709 it seems this has been working all along so I guess it was just coincidal it did not work until firmware was updated at our end...
Or buy the Oppo. No HD Fury needed. But Oppo does not quite provide as good of an image, but I am pretty sure after next firmware update it will. Oppo is supposed to be adding the slider adjustment, like the Panny.
I can't get over the feeling that i am losing some details in the black levels
Calibration issue...?
No because I have calibrated everything like it should be, I am a certified ISF calibrator so that end should be ok ;-)
3D LUT or just standard controls?
Have you tried different laser dimming modes? Perhaps one of them is crushing blacks?
If you have a proper camera with manual controls, you could try and take a picture of the screens with both projectors showing the same image. If you raise the exposure to the point where the camera does not crush any details itself (which an iphone or anything like that will do), perhaps this could show if one is displaying pixel information in shadows that the other is not.
Running back and forth while trying to remember what you saw sounds kind of difficult. :)
I can't get over the feeling that i am losing some details in the black levels, both the Murideo pluge and the Masciola patterns resolve 17 and clip 16 so everything seems ok with test pattern. But compared to the Epson for instance i get more shadow detail.
I have set gamma at 2.2 but tried to push the black in the Gamma setting to +6, just by looking at the picture that seems to work out better for resolving shadow detail.
I will measure the gamma curve both with the slider to 0 and to +6 to see the results, does anyone has the same feeling about the black levels or am I just seeing ghosts?
Tried about every combination possible but keep having the same result.
I have set gamma at 2.2 but tried to push the black in the Gamma setting to +6, just by looking at the picture that seems to work out better for resolving shadow detail.... I will measure the gamma curve both with the slider to 0 and to +6 to see the results, does anyone has the same feeling about the black levels or am I just seeing ghosts?There are some things to be aware of regards the set up and calibration of this projector which can cause detail loss at both ends of the spectrum, but are resolvable... I will include the details within my report that I am in process of completing for posting on here later... :)
There are some things to be aware of regards the set up and calibration of this projector which can cause detail loss at both ends of the spectrum, but are resolvable... I will include the details within my report that I am in process of completing for posting on here later... :)
If you are talking about the white clipping and Super white function, I know ;-)Ha! I never doubted you didn't Werner! :D Nothing gets past your radar, that's for sure!
I've always clipped my projectosr above 235 to preserve brightness. For SDR, I'd be inclined to do the same, even with the Z1.Good idea. Where brightness is a limiting factor that's certainly an option, but personally I am a detail freak... I just can't stand crushed shadow detail or clipped/blown highlights... I remember the gentleman who runs the THX professional video calibration opening the training by apologising to the whole class that he was going to forever after ruin our enjoyment of watching movies because we would not be able to view an image ever again without seeing everything that wrong with it such as in this regard, and unfortunately he was right... I've been totally screwed ever since :'( ;D
We shall see, I guess... Just took a final reading off my Sony 1000. 6.5fL off my screen in HIGH mode :-X The most I've ever achieved in my room is a blinding 11fL, and immediately down as the bulb dims. Looking forward to see what I can squeeze out of the Z1. Two hours ETA.I am very much looking forward to your feedback in particular given the nature of your environment and especially your screen size and how you manage to get the Z1/RS4500 to perform with it :)
Good idea. Where brightness is a limiting factor that's certainly an option, but personally I am a detail freak... I just can't stand crushed shadow detail or clipped/blown highlights...
I am very much looking forward to your feedback in particular given the nature of your environment and especially your screen size and how you manage to get the Z1/RS4500 to perform with it :)
Keep seeing that laser dimmer going bananas way too much... Seems to be worse in laser mode 2, but is certainly dims very weird in mode 1 as well... Hopefully this will be addressed in a firmware shortly though, seems really more like a bug than a "feature" to me... The Epson laser also uses laser dimming, but is not bouncing back and forth like this in regular scenes, however the "fade to black" on the Epson is very visible compared to the JVC.
That's interesting, as Kris said he couldn't see the laser dimming work while watching movies unless he really looked for it. I wonder why yours seems less well behaved ?
Yes, and it´s very visible, I mean like moving up and down 500 lumens in what basically looks like the same frame give and take some small alterations. Seems as if the steps in certain frame sequences are way too steep - on my unit at least...
I wonder if screen size / manual iris position affects the laser dimming being visible? Jetsen, are you seeing laser dimming pumping or no ?
It does pop up once in a while but i don't see the amount of pumping that is being described by arrow and Lygren.
Yes, and it´s very visible, I mean like moving up and down 500 lumens in what basically looks like the same frame give and take some small alterations. Seems as if the steps in certain frame sequences are way too steep - on my unit at least...Jon, unfortunately we share your findings regarding this and personally we don't like the current functionality of the dynamic laser dimming feature... Perhaps JVC can improve its functioning with later tweaks but as of right now I would go as far to say that Mode 2 is not useable at all (it's distracting), and Mode 1 is inconsistent and problematic and so I would be inclined to keep it turned off for now... but that's just our opinion... Others might like what it does.
OUR TWO CENTS:
SUMMARY:
The JVC DLA-RS4500/Z1 is a mixed bag, in it both surprises with comparatively superior performance in some respects only to shockingly disappoint with respect to others.
Whether overall one considers that what is intended to be the new flagship projector delivers an acceptable minimum quality standard of video performance for its price tag of $35,000 we will present the salient facts and let you draw your own conclusions.
THX CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL VIDEO CALIBRATION (by me) | EQUIPMENT USED:
- Colorimetry Research CR-300 0.8nm Spectroradiometer
- Klein K10-A Tristimulus Colorimeter
- Murideo SIX-G 4K HDR Reference Pattern Generator
With CEM DT-805 Sound Level Meter to measure operating noise.
3.8 metres / 12.5 feet wide projection screen, with Seymour Screen Excellence Enlightor PRO Screen Material.
POSITIVES:
● Excellent out-of-the-box performance with respect to grayscale and gamma in particular
● Razor sharp image due to superior lenses and associated hardware
● Superb colour performance and accuracy once calibrated
● Laser dimming feature perceivably significantly enhances the contrast and black levels
● Initial firmware is very good indeed with comparatively very few issues, bugs, and/or malfunctions that need ironing out with subsequent firmware updates
NEGATIVES:
● Disappointingly poor ON/OFF Contrast that is in reality very considerably less than promised / forecast to us by JVC.
● Disappointingly poor brightness output that is in reality very considerably less than promised / forecast to us by JVC
● Laser dimming feature performance inconsistent and problematic (Mode 2 particularly)
● Maximum screen size of circa 3.8 metres / 12.5 feet wide to achieve THX recommended 16fL with no lumens headroom and 8,200:1 ON/OFF contrast (without colour filter)
At minimum throw distance, with maximum zoom, iris set to fully open, and laser set to high, all of which to yield the absolute maximum lumens, this yielded 16.2fL, with 1,416 lumens on screen and 1,749 lumens factoring out the screen gain (with the screen in reality yielding a measured in-situ actual gain of 0.81).
● High operating noise: HIGH LASER [Max 70dB / 1m 63dB / 2m 56dB] | MEDIUM LASER [Max 63dB / 1m 57dB / 2m 54dB] | LOW LASER [Max 56dB / 1m 54dB / 2m 51dB]
● Expensive
● Updated ‘lesser’ models deliver superior video performance in more ways than one but at a fraction of the cost and hence we recommend the JVC X9500/RS620 as a possible alternative.
That's interesting, as Kris said he couldn't see the laser dimming work while watching movies unless he really looked for it. I wonder why yours seems less well behaved ?I have a feeling that its performance may be influenced by a number of factors including how hard you are or not driving the projector... For example, it might perform more stable and better with the laser set to medium as opposed to high... But I am merely speculating here...
Sounds like JVC in your country is not inspecting all of the units. I will not comment on all the rest of your numbers, but your noise level is much higher than it should be. That unit should have been rejected for noise alone.Mike, I am sorry to say that, after the fiasco at CES, this unit was hand-selected and delivered by JVC, JVC attended my evaluation where I showed them all my equipment, showed them my measurements and demonstrated the unit to them, they witnessed everything themselves including the noise... And with the utmost respect our performance numbers are far from unique... but are confirmed by multiple independant third parties, in other words we are only confirming what the likes of Jetsen and others have already reported... where I have to say, DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER! ;)
I have a feeling that its performance may be influenced by a number of factors including how hard you are or not driving the projector... For example, it might perform more stable and better with the laser set to medium as opposed to high... But I am merely speculating here...
Mike, I am sorry to say that, after the fiasco at CES, this unit was hand-selected and delivered by JVC, JVC attended my evaluation where I showed them all my equipment, showed them my measurements and demonstrated the unit to them, they witnessed everything themselves including the noise... And with the utmost respect our performance numbers are far from unique... but are confirmed by multiple independant third parties, in other words we are only confirming what the likes of Jetsen and others have already reported... where I have to say, DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER! ;)
I concur with Arrow's observations. This projector CAN put out a huge amount of noise if room temperature goes up. I've had to reactivate my cooling feed and ensure the room is up to temperature before running the projector to avoid the aircon dumping super heated air into the room and upsetting it. Once the film is running it tends to get lost in the background until the soundtracks goes quiet.
Light output is poor - I measure ~1600 lumens @D65 from a 26' throw with iris wide open.
BUT, it's also the best image I've seen so far in my room, and the constant brightness light source means no dimming, like bulbs, so I'll probably be keeping it. Need more viewing.
Screen size is 180" 2.35, screen research CP2 gain 0.86. Throw 26'. Lux measured at screen with CA183 and off screen with Klein K10A.
That may be true. I have a feeling this could be a reference projector for smaller screens. Kris's screen is higher gain and much smaller than the one you used. I'll bet he had the iris closed much more, so that the dynamic dimming doesn't work as hard. That said, it sure lit up a big screen at Cedia.Bingo! That is precisely why we are recommending this projector for use with screens of circa 2.7 metres / 9 feet wide or less which is the size that allows you you make use of the various options that significantly positively influence image contrast such as closing down the iris... Where like I have said, this projector does produce a very nice looking image when it is NOT operating balls-to-the-wall maximum everything minimum contrast with no lumens headroom and (again speculating) negatively affecting the performance of the laser dynamic dimming... In other words, with the right application, namely 'sensible'/appropriate screen size in a low ambient light level room you can achieve a lovely looking image with this projector... But if you want high brightness and deep blacks on a giant sized screen then this projector is not the correct choice. :)
Screen size is 180" 2.35, screen research CP2 gain 0.86. Throw 26'. Lux measured at screen with CA183 and off screen with Klein K10A.
Based on the screen gain you gave, that is 2,000 lumens at your throw.
Bingo! That is precisely why we are recommending this projector for use with screens of circa 2.7 metres / 9 feet wide or less which is the size that allows you you make use of the various options that significantly positively influence image contrast such as closing down the iris... Where like I have said, this projector does produce a very nice looking image when it is NOT operating balls-to-the-wall maximum everything minimum contrast with no lumens headroom and (again speculating) negatively affecting the performance of the laser dynamic dimming... In other words, with the right application, namely 'sensible'/appropriate screen size in a low ambient light level room you can achieve a lovely looking image with this projector... But if you want high brightness and deep blacks on a giant sized screen then this projector is not the correct choice. :)
This does beg the question, what is the demand for a $35,000 reference projector for small-to-medium sized screens? I honestly have no idea what is the answer to that question... Thoughts?
Everyone that is going to ISE, I would very much like it if we could have a schort (or long ;-) meeting(meaning a drink and a nice chat) in Amsterdam.
I also think it would be good if at some point, we got together at the JVC booth, not to start a war but just to give som insight of what kind of remarks the different users like ourselves have.
I know they are always been very informative an willing to cooperate with me in all those years as a client, i think everyone can benefit from giving as much info and user remarks as possible.
And arrow still has to buy me a drink, so I will not take no for an answer ;-)
I am very happy I never even considered this projector, as it sound like a real flop from JVC that is not delivering even close to specs. I am very disappointed with this and at the same time I am happy I did not preorder and spent all that cash on a projector performing worse than the 1080p e-shift models (and then I am talking about my own HT)...
A RS620 is most likely being ordered in a couple of weeks... :)
I have an X9500 on order now too :)
Yeah this is kind of alarming regarding the Z1... IF this was actually shooting 3000lm in Rec709 near calibrated I don't think I would take as much issue, but it sounds like my incoming 9500 may be brighter in some circumstances, and have considerably more contrast, definitely giving up some sharpness, but that's a high cost indeed.
I have an X9500 on order now too :)
Yeah this is kind of alarming regarding the Z1... IF this was actually shooting 3000lm in Rec709 near calibrated I don't think I would take as much issue, but it sounds like my incoming 9500 may be brighter in some circumstances, and have considerably more contrast, definitely giving up some sharpness, but that's a high cost indeed.
I am not giving up the contrast of the RS600/620 for a little sharper image and a lot more $, the RS4500 costs about 35000$ more than the RS620 in Norway... :)
It was suspicious when the JVC product page for the RS4500 only mentioned the infinity:1 dynamic contrast ratio...
I'm curious if it is the chips themselves or the fact that they are larger which makes things more difficult to achieve higher ratios.
Based on the screen gain you gave, that is 2,000 lumens at your throw.
Audio/visual lag also seems to be an issue. I had to max out my lipsync delay on my AV processor to account for the added lag introduced by whatever the projector is doing internally. I'll measure this delay today using my Syncheck to ensure that I can compensate for it.
The chips aren't larger, they are a fraction smaller(2K .7", 4K .69") so the pixel size is 4X smaller.THIS is precisely the root cause of the issue in our opinions as well :) And I had a chat a while back with Alan Gouger and (if he doesn't my saying so) this is his opinion too... So NAIL... HEAD... HIT ;)
My gut feeling is this is the crux of the problem, the number of liquid crystals are reduced due to the smaller pixel size and the inter crystal light bleed to pixel surface ratio increases, thus reducing On/Off contrast.
Actually, you might be right...
The CA183 seems to be *under* reading at the screen. Taking the Klein readings off of the screen, and assuming my previous gain calculation of 0.86 is correct, I'm getting ~1900 at the 2.35:1 zoom. I'm getting 12.9 fL on my screen with laser HIGH, iris 0.
I'll take some more readings today.
Regarding the inifinity:1 contrast - this is nonsense. There is no fade to black, even with laser dimming on. Presumably because the overall contrast is low enough that a jump to black would look far too artificial. The Sony 1000 did a much better job in that regard.
I did a quick lightning LUT calibration yesterday and the results were VERY impressive. Some of the best results I've seen for Rec709@D65.
Audio/visual lag also seems to be an issue. I had to max out my lipsync delay on my AV processor to account for the added lag introduced by whatever the projector is doing internally. I'll measure this delay today using my Syncheck to ensure that I can compensate for it.
THIS is precisely the root cause of the issue in our opinions as well :) And I had a chat a while back with Alan Gouger and (if he doesn't my saying so) this is his opinion too... So NAIL... HEAD... HIT ;)
IMO in hindsight JVC should have simply made the panel 4 times the size whilst retaining the same pixels size, or even better made the panel 5 times the size with 20% larger pixels size for even better raw contrast performance as compared with the HD panels... Hopefully JVC or at the very least another manufacturer will realize this and do precisely this :) .
I concur with Arrow's observations. This projector CAN put out a huge amount of noise if room temperature goes up. I've had to reactivate my cooling feed and ensure the room is up to temperature before running the projector to avoid the aircon dumping super heated air into the room and upsetting it. Once the film is running it tends to get lost in the background until the soundtracks goes quiet.
Light output is poor - I measure ~1600 lumens @D65 from a 26' throw with iris wide open.
BUT, it's also the best image I've seen so far in my room, and the constant brightness light source means no dimming, like bulbs, so I'll probably be keeping it. Need more viewing.
Talking of firmware, I'm on 1.04
In 20 years of owning a projector I've never updated the firmware... could this be the first? Seems to be as simple as plugging in a USB stick and going into the 'update firmware' option?
Anybody got RS232 working? I'm trying to use standard JVC codes, but with no success...
From what i read here it seems everybody is running 1080P Blu ray on this projector, as it seems its not capable of delivering any usefull lightoutput while maintaining a decent black level for UHD mastered content.. Or am i missing something.?
Yes, this was discussed earlier, when Kris posted about it. My thoughts that I gave on it are what you are thinking, it would not be a smooth transition out of black. It would be jarring, like the LS10500. I also suspect that in the first version, JVC started out, turning the light source off and had full fade to black and after seeing what it did, adjusted the dimming. That is why I assume have infinity listed as the spec. As for why it has not been changed, I do not know. Maybe they are waiting to see what they can do firmware wise?Therefore, it DOES NOT have infinity : 1 native contrast Mike, so JVC should not state that it does in the published technical specs...
That says a lot right there ! Considering your last projector was what - a VW1000 ?
From what i read here it seems everybody is running 1080P Blu ray on this projector, as it seems its not capable of delivering any usefull lightoutput while maintaining a decent black level for UHD mastered content.. Or am i missing something.?
THIS is precisely the root cause of the issue in our opinions as well :) And I had a chat a while back with Alan Gouger and (if he doesn't my saying so) this is his opinion too... So NAIL... HEAD... HIT ;)
IMO in hindsight JVC should have simply made the panel 4 times the size whilst retaining the same pixels size, or even better made the panel 5 times the size with 20% larger pixels size for even better raw contrast performance as compared with the HD panels... Hopefully JVC or at the very least another manufacturer will realize this and do precisely this :) .
Sometimes reading things on the internet makes it hard to decipher when someone is joking or not. I assume you aren't serious about making the panels that much larger, are you? A 5 times larger panel would mean each DiLA chip was almost 3.5" in size. The exit element of the lens is only a little larger than this. Do you know how big the optics would need to be for 3.5" DiLA panels? (http://i.imgur.com/TmTwwpy.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/TmTwwpy.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/TmTwwpy.gif)
Sometimes reading things on the internet makes it hard to decipher when someone is joking or not. I assume you aren't serious about making the panels that much larger, are you? A 5 times larger panel would mean each DiLA chip was almost 3.5" in size. The exit element of the lens is only a little larger than this. Do you know how big the optics would need to be for 3.5" DiLA panels? (http://i.imgur.com/TmTwwpy.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/TmTwwpy.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/TmTwwpy.gif)I think you need to change the batteries in your calculator Dylan ;)
I've viewed 4K/SDR and it looks absolutely stunning. Not enough light on my screen for HDR, or even 2020.
Not quite sure what that is supposed to mean...? I've been through many projectors in my room...
When you said it was the best image you've had in your theater, I was just wondering what the other projectors you had owned in the past - that's all.
What display are you using...?
Mostly tested it on a Pioner plasma, that maxed out at 60fl calibrated without compromising the black level. I have a CRT projector that is normaly shooting 14fl, and can do 20fl with scope movies.. And dont get much pleasure from the UHD SDR, as ill need to set the HDR converter to clip white to get a decent average light output, so im curious how you get around the limited light output and make UHD SDR better than HD.
Therefore, it DOES NOT have infinity : 1 native contrast Mike, so JVC should not state that it does in the published technical specs...
With neither of those displays being 4K ( correct me if I'm wrong ), I'm not sure why you would even bother trying to view 4K source material on them. I can easily see a picture improvement on my JVC RS600 ( which while not native 4K, can display 4K ) over standard Blu Ray, and I'm expecting the RS4500 / Z1 to be even better. Mostly with 4K SDR BT.2020, but I might change that with the RS4500.
I think you need to change the batteries in your calculator Dylan ;)
And YES I am absolutely one hundred percent serious about making the panels that much larger :)
Here's the figures:
DIAGONAL 0.69 INCHES
WIDTH 0.60 INCHES
HEIGHT 0.34 INCHES
AREA 0.20 SQUARE INCHES
AREA x 4 0.81 SQUARE INCHES
LENGTH 1.20 INCHES
WIDTH 0.68 INCHES
DIAGONAL 1.38 INCHES
AREA x 5 1.02 SQUARE INCHES
LENGTH 1.34 INCHES
WIDTH 0.76 INCHES
DIAGONAL 1.54 INCHES
So, we are in fact talking about 1.38" / 1.54" DiLA panels, not 3.5" ;)
You're welcome :).
I really wasn't thinking that one through. I just multiplied the diagonal length times 4 and 5. Figuring out the surface area didn't even occur to me. DOH! :)No worries Dylan, I am by no means perfect and suffer the occasional brain-fart. It's to be expected when we get to our age! ;) So you are forgiven already :D
With that said, the argument is still essentially the same. Getting the display area that large brings you into the commercial projector realm and as such necessitates much larger light engine optics and prime lenses. I don't think it's feasible for the consumer market...Not quite... Your argument is that it will not be even close to economically viable to do as I have suggested... But this is not factually correct.
Well, I suppose it's enough to know that the Sony 1000 was the best I'd seen previously, and the Z1 is very likely to replace it. I'll keep the Z1 for a year or two until either a) Sony prove their SXRD no longer degrade and replace the 5000, or JVC come out with a Z2 that delivers what we all wanted from the Z1!Thanks for all your brilliant feedback Mark! :)
Oposit most people today i dont realy care about the pixel count, im into image quality, not pixels.. So it there is a advantage in a format i dont mind using it.. No matter if its a HD or UHD display everything other than the pixel count apply the same, that beeing the SMPTE 2084, and whatever color gammut used.. So testing on a 1080P display outputting 1080P SDR REC 709 is no different than a 2160P SDR rec 709 in regard to gamma and colors..
UHD is still 4:2:0 wich when downscaled to 1080P should be possible to get a perfect non upsampled 4:4:4 croma, and my main issue with HD is not the resolution, but the compression who needs croma upsampling.. UHD have more low level information mastered into the movies, but you need the right ramp out of black to take advantage of it. If you come out of black to flat it dont work.. so therefore you need to somewhat follow the SMPTE 2084 gamma out of black, and compress the highlights.. But a UHD movie displayed on a HD calibrated display looks terrible dim and flat, and they are 2 different ways of mastering, so im curious how you guys get around the low light output, and maintain the SMPTE 2084 gamma curve and average light output, as i would like to try that myself, so when people tell that UHD SDR looks great, or better than HD ill expect they did some work to get there, and can explain what.
When watching UHD with SDR you no longer have to think about st2084 as with SDR you use the normal SDR gamma you prefer. And the best way to watch UHD movies (this is my personal opinion) on a projector so far is to use rec709 and SDR as this will give you the most accurate picture. When using rec2020 and SDR it messes up the gamma in some ways, and also the colors are affected. So I watch UHD movies in rec709 and SDR and get 4K resolution and 10bit and to me this looks a little better than normal BD, but not much. I watch 99% BD on my MadVR High End PC with a watercooled Titan X Pascal GPU. :)
... if one does not get hung up on the particular figures overall image-wise it could be considered a pretty decent upgrade from what you have experienced with the Sony 1000 on that screen size in your environment...
That said, like you I am looking forward to the next projectors down the line which offer yet even better performance ;)
And for that to happen ill expect you need a significantly higher light output than 14 or 20fl on your screen.. If you pop in the same movie in a UHD player, the UHD and HD, set it all to output REC 709 SDR, the UHD vertion will be very much dimmer, wich the only way to compensate fore is to manipulate the gamma with a external processor, or adjust the HDR converter wich adds white clipping, or push even more light out of your display/ projector.. So what i find important.. How much light is on the screen, and black level.. As thats 2 very important parameters to get a good UHD SDR image.. I cant say if the advantage shifts to UHD at 40fl, or 50, i just know that 60fl is pretty interesting on a display that can hold a black black, with the HDR converter set to 0 on the UB900 player, and that show the gamma curve follow the SMPTE 2084 out of black.. How is this working on the new JVC.? Anyone measured it.?
With correct conversion from bt2020 to rec709 and from st2084 to a power function gamma the lightoutput should be the same.
Have you ever experienced that, and if so what equipment/ converter.?
What your saying is that you can shoot 2 screenshots 1 of UHD and 1 of HD a average frame will look the same if converted right.?
I only tested the converter in the Panasonic UB900, ill like to know what to buy to make it work right, and display a UHD SDR on a normal HD calibrated display, and it will be both objective and subjectively better. Is it something unike to these new JVC projectors.?
This discussion is really OT for this thread, but Lumagen are working on a mapping algorithm that will take in HDR metadata and map it into your SDR 3D LUT (stored on the Lumagen). This, if it works, should accurately translate HDR into whatever your projector is capable of. The key thing being that below 100 nits, both SDR and HDR hold the majority of the image, with HDR being 10/12bit instead of 8 bit. Above 100 nits, it's HDR all the way. So the Lumagen algorithm will allow you to display the main HDR image in an SDR cube while then rolling/clipping away all the stuff you cannot display. The result is a 10/12bit SDR image. It could well be the killer HDR converter...
Have you ever experienced that, and if so what equipment/ converter.?
What your saying is that you can shoot 2 screenshots 1 of UHD and 1 of HD a average frame will look the same if converted right.?
I only tested the converter in the Panasonic UB900, ill like to know what to buy to make it work right, and display a UHD SDR on a normal HD calibrated display, and it will be both objective and subjectively better. Is it something unike to these new JVC projectors.?
Side-by-side comparing the Z1 / 4500 to the RS600 I have made some interesting discoveries, both projectors in gamma 2.4, iris open and high lamp mode, iris on at the RS600 and at mode 1 on the Z1 - on a 14 ft screen;
1. Brightness is - as expected - significantly higher on the Z1, on a 14 ft screen it generates a far more pleasant result in such regards than the RS600.
2. Black level actually almost identical when compared side-by-side, difference is that Z1 uses laser to modulate the light output / black level and as such the bright objects are also much dimmer than on the RS600. Still, as the eye is less sensitive to light output in dark frames, this might work quite fine for the Z1 and as such, the laser dimming might actually help out quite a lot on obtaining a very resonable black level and at the same time be able to produce significantly more light than the RS600.
3. No streaking on the Z1, very visible on the RS600 on typical white text on black background...
I will try to take some pics!
All-in-all I am starting to actually quite like the Z1 even though the issue of DCI P3 not working out on a large screen such as mine was kind of a disappointment... Still, the fact that the Z1 is actually able to quite effeciently produce both bright AND dynamic images kind of makes up for this weakness to some extent. HDR is a nogo for projectors anyhow in my opinion, I would never give away most of the available brightness for some peaks here and there and as far as I am concerned, in such case I would need 5-10x the light available from the Z1 - perhaps even more if P3 is to be activated too - by other words a utopian scenario except for perhaps with the VW5000.
Naturally one would want it all at 35k, but I really feel JVC has made out quite a nice platform with their Z1. Z2 will certainly be better; the P3 filter, for example, will hopefully be far more effecient (currently a 40% drop...!), but hey - life´s short, there will ALWAYS be improvements around the corner! If you do have 35k to "spare", the Z1 is just about the only projector available that can produce bright AND high contrasted 4K native images if you rule out the Sony VW5000.
Side-by-side comparing the Z1 / 4500 to the RS600 I have made some interesting discoveries, both projectors in gamma 2.4, iris open and high lamp mode, iris on at the RS600 and at mode 1 on the Z1 - on a 14 ft screen;
What screen material are you using?
ScreenAcoustics (DreamScreen) UltraWeave V6 AT @ gain of about 0.8 (benchmarked towards Studiotek 100 @ D65)... :)
Any comments on motion handling?
Has anybody hooked a computer up to theirs? Would love to see a picture of white text on a black background.
I read Ekki stated motion handling was not as good on the Z1 as the RS600 so I have tried looking for it... I guess you´d need moving test patterns to make out any shortcomings, as it seems to handle motion quite well on movies. I am not a FI fan anyhow, and as such the 24fps stuttering is probably making it hard to evaluate the motion quality, but I have to say this does really not seem as much of a practical shortcoming as far as I am concerned at least.....
I read Ekki stated motion handling was not as good on the Z1 as the RS600 so I have tried looking for it... I guess you´d need moving test patterns to make out any shortcomings, as it seems to handle motion quite well on movies. I am not a FI fan anyhow, and as such the 24fps stuttering is probably making it hard to evaluate the motion quality, but I have to say this does really not seem as much of a practical shortcoming as far as I am concerned at least.....
Any more thoughts or observations? I'd like to be able to make my own observations, but I don't even have tracking yet on my projector. So I'm living vicariously through you ! Maybe I'll watch The Wave on my RS4500 and see how it compares to watching it on my RS600.
Today I´ve been cutting V6 samples like crazy, heading to ISE this weekend and unfortunately very little time for further Z1 reviewing... Still, I can´t help paying it some quick visits, and today the last Transformers movie was playing - still in "RS600 vs Z1 / RS4500"-mode. This movie is typically oversaturated and grained, and I really see how the added light output from the RS4500 makes for a very nice added punch compared to the RS600. Colors are very nicely saturated, and grain is more visible on the RS4500 - which is what they´re supposed to be on this particular movie. I´d say the Z1 is fully capable of lighting the 14 ft screen, and while the RS600 actually also does an OK job in such regards, when you´ve seen the light - so to speak - you wouldn´t want to go back. You´re in for a treat!! :):)
Good thing my wife doesn't read here, because while she is gone this weekend, not only am I going to install the RS4500, I think I'll paint a couple of walls with the Roscoe Super Concentrated Velour Black paint that's coming today, and move the seating ever so closer to the screen ! :-X
Expecting delivery tomorrow on my RS4500. Looking forward to it. Will post some impressions.
Expecting delivery tomorrow on my RS4500. Looking forward to it. Will post some impressions.
Same here - the freight company called that is delivering it - " a 97 lb. electrical appliance " they called it . Between 2 and 5 pm Pacific !
Good thing my wife doesn't read here, because while she is gone this weekend, not only am I going to install the RS4500, I think I'll paint a couple of walls with the Roscoe Super Concentrated Velour Black paint that's coming today, and move the seating ever so closer to the screen ! :-X
I did my whole room in it - awesome paint and Chad is always very impressed with it when he comes out.
What ratio did you mix it at ? 1:1 ?
You can mix it 1:1, but I didn't mix it. It's a tad darker on the wall if you don't, but I only needed about 3.5 gallons for my room.
It's strange that I have read people complaining about how this paint goes on the wall if they didn't thin it a little, so maybe I'll go 1 part paint to .75 parts water and see how that works !
It's a very, very thick paint (reminds me of black tar) and does take more work to put on the wall not mixed, but wasn't a big deal to me. When I did tests, I found it just a bit darker not mixed with water...in fact, I later went over the mixed water parts with just the paint. But it's slight. It does a great job of absorbing light.
Some folks seemed to thing it looked streaky not thinned. I have to thin it or I'll need to order more !
Just to note, my walls were also white before putting it on - not sure if that factored in on my experience.
Awesome Craig. If possible, would you mind sharing the distance between the front and rear feat of the projector? Need to confirm my shelf is long enough to support the length. The same shelf supported the 1100 without issue but RS4500 is a bit longer.
Nice looking forward to mine. You are going to have a fun weekend. :)
But your Monday is looking exciting !
Congrats, Craig. Looking forward to your further impressions even though this unit is way out of my price league. :) Did you get Rosco on the walls yet?
Lens memory works great
Dynamic laser dimming - tried Mode 2. Can't see any pumping...
Last two sessions my focus has been off at the start of a session, and switching between memories does not restore it to where it should be. Not sure why. Frustrating to have to refocus each session. But the repositioning works very well, if really slowly.
You will, but whether it bothers you are not is the important thing.
Last two sessions my focus has been off at the start of a session, and switching between memories does not restore it to where it should be. Not sure why. Frustrating to have to refocus each session. But the repositioning works very well, if really slowly.
You will, but whether it bothers you are not is the important thing.
I have yet to see anything that resembles "pumping". The only artifact I see is with mid to high bright scenes when the laser goes up a bit in brightness. It is a very quick flicker, and usually happens at scene transitions. I still only see this maybe once or twice in a whole movie, hardly intrusive. Never seen any type of artifact with darker sequences in movies.
That's a good description - a " quick flicker ".
4K using Rec.709 looks brighter and far more realistic to me. And, now I'm using my Panasonic UB900 to upscale Blu Rays to 4K. i'm thinking that way I can use the same player and the same settings for everything. More to follow.
That's enough to destroy immersion for me. It's a compromise I'm not willing to make. The native CR presentation benefits from constant peak highlights too. I personally prefer that. The laser dimming does just that - dims everything. I wasn't aware of such obvious dimming with the mechanical DI on the Sony 1000. I just don't think the laser dimming works well yet. Perhaps it can be improved via firmware.
One other item I noticed, which is very similar to Sony units of the past. Previous Sony units like the 1100ES and the other smaller 4K units, have had issues where the Blue panel was out of convergence for the first 15 mins or so, then it would settle in.
I am seeing this exact same thing on the JVC.
This might also improve over time, but if not at least it seems to settle into place as the unit warms up.
One of the things that struck me on first starting up mine was there was no convergence errors at all, nor after some hours of use. My Sony 1000 was -8 out on blue and converged a little as the projector warmed up. The Z1 seems stable. Maybe I struck lucky with mine.
One issue that seems to affect my Z1, as it did my Sony, is that focus seems to drift between sessions, so I shut the unit down with focus spot on, but the projector then starts with focus off. I then have to check focus each time I start and refocus if necessary. I had hoped to say goodbye to that particular problem.
I will check for that. Maybe focus changes after it warms up ?
With the RS4500, I tried the HDR preset, and I also tried BT.2020, which on my sized screen(s) is do-able. I've come to the conclusion that Kris Deering's suggestion to watch 4K Blu Rays using Rec. 709 just looks more natural. You still get the added detail and clean noise free picture thanks to 4K, and Rec 709 using the natural preset is brighter.
How exactly are you handling this? Are you having the UHD BD player send UHD HDR REC2020 to the projector and just putting the JVC in it's REC709 preset mode? Or are you having the color points truncated from REC2020 to REC709?
How exactly are you handling this? Are you having the UHD BD player send UHD HDR REC2020 to the projector and just putting the JVC in it's REC709 preset mode? Or are you having the color points truncated from REC2020 to REC709?
I'm almost certain he is just outputting SDR REC709 from the Bluray player, since there is an exact specification for how the players convert HDR2020 to SDR709.
I talked to someone at Oppo about this and learned while converting HDR2020 to SDR709 is in the UHD BD spec, it's still complicated. I discussed with them how the BD and UHD BD even at rec 709 still have different looking gammas (at least on the Oppo) on several movies I closely compared (running the BD in the 103D and UHD BD in the 203 into different inputs A/Bing the scenes at the same time essentially on my RS500). I see shadow detail crushed and color still a little off at times on the UHD BD at SDR709. Sometimes a little too much contrast probably from the gamma conversion. Basically I was told that a conversion curve is needed to match all the values from an HDR signal into the SDR range. In theory, the player has the potential to restore the same gamma as the BD, however there isn't a "perfect" algorithm for converting an absolute luminance into the relative luminance yet. So there is going to be some variance and probably some tweaks to optimize this.
On my RS4500 I'm seeing more shadow detail for sure than on my RS600.
I'd be inclined to say this is a calibration issue... with proper calibration, especially a 3D LUT, both should display the same shadow detail.
I had some black crush on the RS600 - no doubt.
I had some black crush on the RS600 - no doubt.
That is only a calibration issue, actually the RS600 will show better shadow detail when calibrated to to the same gamma with perfect brightness due to its far superior on/off contrast. :)
The shadow detail will be the same on both, but the higher contrast projector will look subjectively better due to deeper blacks. Scemantics, I know, but just saying that both projectors are capable of showing the same video details, just differently.
I watched Revenant yesterday on the RS4500 in HDR. Nice dark movie, the image looked excellent. I was running in high lamp, manual iris at -8, dynamic dimming in mode 2, natural and HDR on. Did not have the DCI P3 filter in place.
Sweet! Congrats on the new toy, mike. You watched in high lamp? :P :D Is this your first laser projector?
Yes in high power and yes to being first laser projector that I have owned. You need high power for HDR.
High lamp sounded funny to me because it's laser. Do they still call it low/high 'Lamp' in the menus? I'm curious how many ft lamberts you get on your screen with BD & UHD BD. Enjoy! 8)
High lamp sounded funny to me because it's laser. Do they still call it low/high 'Lamp' in the menus? I'm curious how many ft lamberts you get on your screen with BD & UHD BD. Enjoy! 8)
I actually have not measured. I know what Kris was getting on his screen and used that as a guide to determine what brightness to set it to. Will adjust this weekend. For HDR, I thought I would need to run full out, but I am closing the manual iris to -5. HDR looks really good. Makes it hard to go back to BD.
I would expect to have to do a calibration for each user mode. Grayscale should change since you are now putting a color filter in the light path. I would expect that to have some effect on the grayscale and gamma.
What you're say Kris is that commercial calibration guys like these from Mojo Consulting (http://www.mojomediasolutions.com/consultant.html) would have calibrated DCI mode and would that take into account the colour temp in the process? I was thinking this when the D5500 colour mode suggestion was passed on to me by JVC's rep. Perhaps they were assuming I hadn't calibrated mine.
EDIT: JVC have also now told me that the production house testing the Z1 are only just now testing 4K and HDR on it. So I await further feedback after they've completed this part of the testing.
Mike, does the vent make a noticeable difference in projector noise?
It makes a little bit of difference, since it directs the noise to the side.
Also 1.04 here. The clarity and how clean the image is blows me away. Was using high power mode for HDR with iris on -5. Image looked great, but did not like the added noise and heat. Switched to medium with iris open and I am not losing any brightness, but much better with noise level and less heat output. Was going to add a dead vent, but may not have to do this now.
I'm going to 2nd the clarity and clean image. Forget 4K Blu Ray's for a second. Yes, I know this is a 4K projector, but with over 480 Blu Rays in my collection, I'll probably be watching them for the rest of my life. Since Kris reported that the RS4500 was doing excellent upscaling, I did a test last night with my Oppo BDP103 in " source direct " mode. First I watched some of " Avatar ". I watched first upscaling to 4K from my Panasonic UB900, then I switched to the Oppo outputting 1080p. I think it looks ever so slightly better from the Oppo " source direct ". I don't need any motion enhancements on at all - motion looks very good. Super clean image. Virtually no picture noise. Excellent detail. And at least 2 fade to black moments that were very nearly as dark as my RS600 ! Mid laser power, -7 manual iris, mode 2 laser dimming.
For those that complained that the e shift projectors had a " busyness " to the picture, once again, that is non existent on the RS4500 for sure.
I switched to " Prometheus " next. It's a good dark movie " torture test ". I have to say that 95% of the time, dark scenes look just fine compared to my RS600, and better than my VW600. Bright scenes - no contest - this Blu Ray also looked extremely detailed and super clean. And there was another fade to black that blacked out my theater.
I've got all MPC settings at 0, Graphics mode 4K, all motion enhancement off. Picture mode - Natural, BT.709, 6500K. Gamma - 2.4. Input level 16 - 235. Manual iris -7, mid laser power, dynamic dimming mode 2.
Not a 3D fan, but decided to check it out and see how it looks on the RS4500. With the lamp based versions, I see flicker. The flicker does not bother me a whole lot, but with the 4500, I did not see any flicker. Nice image and I did not notice any ghosting in the 40 minutes of 3D that I viewed.
Graphic mode should be 2K if you are using the Oppo in source direct. I've gotten to the point now that I turn off dynamic dimming except for really dark movies. This is what I did with my X750 as well. I rarely notice any issues with dynamic dimming, but I'd rather never see anything at all if I don't have to.
What is the affect of having Graphic mode on 4K for Blu Rays, and I'm guessing it needs to be manually changed for 4K UHD Blu Rays to Graphics Mode 4K ?
And on the other hand, I wonder how 2K Graphics Mode affects 4K content ?
You are telling it what the resolution of the input source is. So for your HDR mode or 4K mode, select 4K. For 1080p sources using 2K.
If anybody wants to come to south central Kentucky to see the RS4500, let me know. Craig has his in CA and shortly we will have our demo theater up and running, with the RS4500 featured in that room.
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Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com
Mike;
I would like to drive over and see the RS4500. I live in Northern Virginia, and would like to drive over, after Winter is over. When will the demo room be set up with the RS4500 for viewing?
William
If anybody wants to come to south central Kentucky to see the RS4500, let me know. Craig has his in CA and shortly we will have our demo theater up and running, with the RS4500 featured in that room.
Maybe when we drive down to Tennessee to check out houses I should make a pit stop and see it Mike! ;)
Invitation is open for me as well for anyone interested in seeing this projector in action at my home local to the NY/Northern NJ area or feels like taking the ride. :)
Here is a quick snap shot I took from Oblivion on my iPhone 7 plus. This projector is absolutely amazing. Oblivion on the VW1100 never looked this good. I've been going through my collection of BD and UHD films and I'm just in awe. If anyone has any requests for images (movie and chapter) and I have it, let me know. I'll be happy to post.
Image on my ~10.7ft 2.35 Seymour XD screen. Low laser power. Not the best shot from an iPhone but gives you a good idea. Love this projector.
(https://kul5iq.bn1303.livefilestore.com/y3mIKgZPi8ml3mH7-BQ0zwCm9rLWmFaHdTFpIDPdS2IuUUj3F8Sbvm22EoueQ6ObMRdulmTXK10peFZEzTRXvWe6WZoSLltnDnrbtADO4QxTD9z_EgROrZGPPBnVSEqRz1Vgm7vL4ZMwZLo6yBvlLzSt8KbpAeSumJFNLcClPcn2Ok?width=1024&height=768&cropmode=none)
This thread suddenly seemed very inactive.
Are all the owners playing with their units?
BTW Kris mentioned a new way of calibrating the HDR modes.
Does that use the auto calibration function of the Z1/RS4500?
What other gear do I need to run the auto calibration.
I've noticed a few times while watching films that I am being lit up by light, eg I can see light on my hands, even though I am not obstructing the projector image in any way. Putting a piece of card up against the projector shows a wide circle of light being thrown way outside the radius of the image itself. So it's stray light from the lens that is lighting me up. This is most noticeable when the on-screen image is dark and my eyes are aclimatised to the darkness. This stray light could very well be raising the black floor/lowering contrast. I will measure tomorrow with my Klein K10A. If it can be measured that the black floor is being lifted, I will experiment with making some sort mask that can sit in front of the projector to stop it throwing the stray light.
Never noticed this on my Sony 1000.
Anybody else spotted this? Is it a JVC "thing"?
I've noticed a few times while watching films that I am being lit up by light, eg I can see light on my hands, even though I am not obstructing the projector image in any way. Putting a piece of card up against the projector shows a wide circle of light being thrown way outside the radius of the image itself. So it's stray light from the lens that is lighting me up. This is most noticeable when the on-screen image is dark and my eyes are aclimatised to the darkness. This stray light could very well be raising the black floor/lowering contrast. I will measure tomorrow with my Klein K10A. If it can be measured that the black floor is being lifted, I will experiment with making some sort mask that can sit in front of the projector to stop it throwing the stray light.
Never noticed this on my Sony 1000.
Anybody else spotted this? Is it a JVC "thing"?
I used my new Sper Scientific light meter to re - measure my RS4500. Mind you that these numbers only apply to my setup and should be taken with a grain of salt. If I moved 8" closer to the projector, the numbers jump and I would have much higher numbers. This is mostly so I'll have an idea how bright I'm watching in MY room on MY screen with MY setup. Taken at the screen ( 122" 16:9 Stewart Cima Neve - 1.1 gain ), facing the projector from 14' , Natural mode, manual iris open, auto iris off -
Low laser - 615.64 lumens. That would give me 15 + foot lamberts.
Mid Laser - 1516.69 lumens. That would give me 38 foot lamberts !
High Laser - 2242.42 lumens. That would give me 56.22 foot lamberts - ha !
The way I've been watching it - Natural mode, Mid Laser, manual iris at -7, laser dimming mode 2 - 1104.90 lumens, 27.70 foot lamberts ! No wonder I thought it was bright !
I haven't seen that. It's coming from inside the lens ? It would have to - my lens has black material around it.
Couldn't measure any black level change off the screen (perhaps a benefit of a non-reflective black pit), but did notice myself being lit up again during the film, so have crafted a bit of card covered in velvet to block the light spill.
It's easiest to see the spill when the projector is displaying a black field. You can then move your hands around the non-screen region and see them light up as they enter the sphere of light spill. During darker scenes in movies I became aware of the same, as well as my clothes being lit too, which is a distraction.
Will be interesting to watch the next movie with the spill barrier in place.
That "Halo" is there on the RS/X-series as well and it would probably be a very good idea to get rid of it! Wanna upload a pic of your custom made "light spill voider"?? :):)
Interesting - I never noticed that.
That "Halo" is there on the RS/X-series as well and it would probably be a very good idea to get rid of it! Wanna upload a pic of your custom made "light spill voider"?? :):)
Tested a couple of of 4K UHD content today on the Z1; Oblivion and The Huntsman. Dynamic laser modulation still flickers the light output up and down from time to time, but I am confident this issue will be resolved in a firmware update from JVC. Might actually be a defective on this particular unit as others are not seeing this the way I am. On "The Huntsman" UHD, in the scene where the snow queen first "preaches" to her newly kidnapped kid-soldiers, the image brightness was going up and down 3-4 times during this scene alone... Other than that a number of other image parameters are very impressive. I´d say my overall impression is that the projector really makes out a "35mm/70mm filmlike" or "organic" type of image, especially when all image processing is turned off and in "natural" mode. I guess the native 4K in combination with the very stabile laser light (except again laser modulation issues...) calls for this appearance. Film grain as well as subtle details are more clearly depicted than I have ever seen before from a digital (home cinema) projector...
Sharpness, color reproduction (rec709) as well as image movement stability is really impressive as well. Light output is also quite good, but as stated before, this projector will probably work best on a <10ft wide screen so that the fixed iris can be tuned down a bit and thus obtain better absolute blacks. On my 13 feet wide screen, absolute blacks are not currently "there" as I need to keep the iris open to produce enough light output (+ high laser mode), but I have still not had the unit calibrated so it runs a default 2.4 gamma so this might be possible to improve on quite signicantly. Perhaps not the absolute black itself, but the detailing, currently somewhat "black crushed" at times, is certainly most lightly possible to improve on.
Is there an easy way to get updated when (if?!) new firmwares arrive or do we have to keep an eye on some webpage somewhere?
Tested a couple of of 4K UHD content today on the Z1; Oblivion and The Huntsman. Dynamic laser modulation still flickers the light output up and down from time to time, but I am confident this issue will be resolved in a firmware update from JVC. Might actually be a defective on this particular unit as others are not seeing this the way I am. On "The Huntsman" UHD, in the scene where the snow queen first "preaches" to her newly kidnapped kid-soldiers, the image brightness was going up and down 3-4 times during this scene alone... Other than that a number of other image parameters are very impressive. I´d say my overall impression is that the projector really makes out a "35mm/70mm filmlike" or "organic" type of image, especially when all image processing is turned off and in "natural" mode. I guess the native 4K in combination with the very stabile laser light (except again laser modulation issues...) calls for this appearance. Film grain as well as subtle details are more clearly depicted than I have ever seen before from a digital (home cinema) projector...
Sharpness, color reproduction (rec709) as well as image movement stability is really impressive as well. Light output is also quite good, but as stated before, this projector will probably work best on a <10ft wide screen so that the fixed iris can be tuned down a bit and thus obtain better absolute blacks. On my 13 feet wide screen, absolute blacks are not currently "there" as I need to keep the iris open to produce enough light output (+ high laser mode), but I have still not had the unit calibrated so it runs a default 2.4 gamma so this might be possible to improve on quite signicantly. Perhaps not the absolute black itself, but the detailing, currently somewhat "black crushed" at times, is certainly most lightly possible to improve on.
There is nothing wrong with your unit. I have had two units now. Both have the exact same problem you are describing with the dynamic iris. And I have seen other mention it too, even if they are not overly bothered by it.
It's promenent in any material that switches back and forth from dark to bright content. The best way I can describe it, is that the Laser is just a half a second to late in making the adjustment. It's like one frame behind.
So you are not alone, this just needs to be tweaked by JVC. If JVC will get a firmware update out to address this issue, and possibly tame the fan noise slightly, the unit would be just about flawless.
Is there an easy way to get updated when (if?!) new firmwares arrive or do we have to keep an eye on some webpage somewhere?
@AVSCraig, I have actually been emailing Chris about my unit and your unit. My unit measured out almost identical to your original findings, of just shy of 2300 lumens / max Laser / iris open in natural mode.
So what was done different, so now you have 2800 lumens? What mode was that measured in? The 500 lumen difference is a huge deal to me.
Also, I have looked at that Accucal screen report and some of those numbers don't make any sense. They show the EN4K material at 0.84, but when I shoot my fabric with a Minolta LS100 and then compare it to a sample of Studiotec 100, which is a Refernce 1.0 gain, that gives my EN4K fabric a gain of 0.7. This is also exactly what sound and vision measured when they reviewed the EN4K screen as well.
Thanks
Chris
Craig noted he used High Bright, not Natural mode.
That is also one of the reasons, I am going to switch to V6 fabric. V6 has a little higher gain.
@AVSCraig, I have actually been emailing Chris about my unit and your unit. My unit measured out almost identical to your original findings, of just shy of 2300 lumens / max Laser / iris open in natural mode.
So what was done different, so now you have 2800 lumens? What mode was that measured in? The 500 lumen difference is a huge deal to me.
Also, I have looked at that Accucal screen report and some of those numbers don't make any sense. They show the EN4K material at 0.84, but when I shoot my fabric with a Minolta LS100 and then compare it to a sample of Studiotec 100, which is a Refernce 1.0 gain, that gives my EN4K fabric a gain of 0.7. This is also exactly what sound and vision measured when they reviewed the EN4K screen as well.
Thanks
Chris
High Bright yielded 2800 lumens. We switched on HDTV ( Dish ) and for something like the Super Bowl, it looked fine. Obviously you wouldn't use that for watching a movie, but it would be plenty fine for the NBA playoffs with all the lights on. And trust me, Chris said " turn some lights on - this is hurting my eyes " - it was blazing bright !
Don't know what to tell you about the screen report. Jeff has ST 100 samples, and ST 130 G3 samples, and I gave him the Cima Neve samples myself. But even at 1.1 gain, I get over 70 foot lamberts ! ;D
Ok this makes more sense now. I just shot mine with the Minolta LS100, and in High Brightness mode I get right at or just over 3000 lumens. The downside is the image is super green, but it would be usable I guess for certain events if extra brightness was needed.
What I want to know is if these units should be calibrated from "High Brightness" color temp, to get more output but correct colors. I noticed if I took the HB mode, and turned the Green Gain down to -40, it was basically the same brightness as D6500 setup.
So I do see how this yields more light output, the question becomes, if its fully calibrated from HB vs D6500, once the calibration is done, do you actually net out any additional lumens!
What fabric do you currently have?
EN4K
Do we have a true reading of what the gain is on the V6 fabric? When I compared my EN4K with a sample of StudioTec 100, using a Minolta LS-100, I can see that the EN4K has a gain of .7.
I'm don't know how that Accucal report has it measured at .84 because mine is no where near that. I wonder if the fabric changed at some point. I noticed the Sound & Vision review has the EN4K measured at a gain of .7 also.
Do the light spill change with different zoom settings on the lens?
Given that others claim not to see it, I'm also wondering the same...
My throw is 26', so I am at the far end of the zoom, with my projected image using only a small amount of the lens.
I picked up Hacksaw Ridge yesterday and will probably give it a run this weekend. Also picked up Everest and Gatsby at BB as they were on sale for $18.
Might have to grab Everest. Watched the BD some time ago and liked it; great movie for a front projection set-up and really good audio.
A few years ago, my wife wanted a nice camera. I bought her a Nikon 5100 and she never uses it. :(
The picture looks even better on the 4K disc - color is more true to life. Just watched a bit trying to get some screen shots - not too successful, as my camera setup leaves much to be desired !
At least you're set up for screen shots then !
I watched " The Martian " on 4K BR last night. I've seen this movie several times - first at a 4K Dolby Digital cinema at Cedia in 2015. Then I watched it on my Sony VW600, and then on my ( then ) new JVC RS600. Parts of this movie ( on Blu Ray were also useful when comparing the VW600 to the RS600. I must have flipped back and forth trying to get video noise / film grain to look close on both 2 dozen times !
When 4K Blu Rays first came out, I played along with everyone else trying to get the damn thing to look right on the Samsung 4K BR player and projector ( and with an HD Fury Integral ) in the beginning. And now, I finally sat down to watch it on my RS4500. Using the HDR pre - set mode ( mid laser, dimming mode 2, manual iris -5 ), finally I can say that colors look correct and outstanding, and detail is incredible. There are a lot of shots in this movie - the Nasa control center where they have walls of screens, the crowd in the streets on Earth watching the final rescue, the shots of the Hermes in space - where detail looks sharper, crisper and cleaner than either the RS600 or VW600 can do. I can easily see fine details on Kristen Wiig's dress. That's the one thing I notice more than anything -
There were shots inside the Hermes when they prepare to slow the spacecraft down, where I could easily see some video noise on the RS600 ( 98% removed by taking the MPC settings down to 0 ). This was the video noise that drove some Sony owners out of their minds when switching to the RS500 / 600. Totally clean looking picture on the RS4500.
I swear, every projector I've owned has a slightly different look to it. The RS4500 is starting to remind me more of a 3 chip DLP with 4K resolution and DCI color, the more I watch it !
A little bit of news. JVC has been listening to their customers and in the near future a firmware update is coming to address, what I would say are the main two issues, fan noise level and dynamic laser dimming.
Watched " Hacksaw Ridge " again last night with friends and my wife, who hadn't seen it. The movie looks amazing - really a great reference disc for this projector. A mighty fine film too I might add. I forgot I had left it on dimming mode 1 and manual iris -4 ( -4 is still plenty bright on my 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST 130 screen, and helps a little with contrast ). Anyway, the night scenes in the foxhole on the battlefield looked outstanding. Superior detail compared to my previous setting of mode 2.
With HDR content, I have not been running the dynamic dimming. I am anxious to see what dynamic dimming looks like once the new firmware is released. :)
Watched " Hacksaw Ridge " again last night with friends and my wife, who hadn't seen it. The movie looks amazing - really a great reference disc for this projector. A mighty fine film too I might add. I forgot I had left it on dimming mode 1 and manual iris -4 ( -4 is still plenty bright on my 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST 130 screen, and helps a little with contrast ). Anyway, the night scenes in the foxhole on the battlefield looked outstanding. Superior detail compared to my previous setting of mode 2.
The standard BD is a mess: full of banding and artifacts. Should have never passed QC. I'll buy the UHD BD one of these days.
For ease of calibration and setup I would prefer to have a software tool which I could run on a laptop - connected via the ethernet port on the back of the projector. The laptop could then be used to store and download profiles into the projector’s memories which could then be selected using the remote.
It is not entirely clear what the adjustments for the colour primaries (Color Management setting: Axis Position, Hue, Saturation, Brightness) are doing. I would prefer to see simple x,y adjustments for each primary. There also appeared to be interaction between some of the parameters although it wasn’t obvious what was going on.
Download the JVC Calibration software and you can do exactly what you describe, simple as that ;-)
They do exactly what the say, Hue changes the color of the primary (secondary), saturation the saturation and brightness changes the luminance of the color. The are the x,y and Y parameters.
Interaction between those parameters is in every single projector I have ever calibrated over the past 15 years ;)
Wanted to share some feedback here (not as widely as on AVS) from a industry calibrator contact of mine who got to spend time with the 4500 in dedicated demo room and calibrate a few modes with an eye to see how the unit would perform in a professional post production application. I found his comments about DCI filter mode vs rec.2020 mode interesting as I swear I thought DCI was meant to possess the widest colour gamut with the filter in place and that rec.2020 was a non-filter mode that goes as far as possible without a filter.
Anyway, here's the observations he made and shared:
All measurements were taken using the FilmLight ‘Truelight’ projector probe (spectrometer+colorimeter mode) and verified against a Photo Research PR655 instrument - the numbers obtained by the two measuring devices were very close (<0.5% difference) so I am confident that the results are accurate.
These tests were primarily concerned with the DCI ‘P3’ performance of the projector as this is the main interest for typical film grading suites, however the performance of Rec.709 was also checked.
Out of the box the so-called ‘DCI’ profile was a little off in terms of the white point and gamut. The red and green primaries were very close to the DCI P3 spec but the blue was somewhat undersaturated. Even after manually applying correction to the white point and primaries it seemed impossible to get the blue primary to reach the full P3 gamut:
(https://s12.postimg.org/6z2nooqu5/DCI.png)
I am a little unsure as to exactly what the different ‘profiles’ set internally inside the projector but my guess is that they are applying some sort of target gamut mapping onto the native gamut of the primaries. This data I assume is recorded into the projector memory as part of the initial factory calibration as it will vary from projector to projector and would require specialist equipment (ie. a spectrometer) to do accurately.
My next test was therefore to start with a profile labelled ‘custom’ (with a D65 white point) - I assumed that this would either not apply any gamut mapping or at least give me access to the projector primaries which I would then be able to manually adjust. However, as can be seen below, the gamut was actually much smaller (close to sRGB/Rec.709) than the DCI profile and I was again unable to push the primaries out any further - they could however be brought in! The white point was again very close to D65 without any adjustment.
(https://s1.postimg.org/4i3qqbz7z/D65.png)
The third test was to start with the Rec.2020 profile - this did have a larger gamut than DCI (which I would expect) although not the full Rec. 2020 colour space. This is reasonable as the projector does not claim to cover the full Rec.2020 gamut and in fact I am not aware of any projector in this price range which can do so. Again, I adjusted the primaries and this time I was able to achieve a very close match to the target DCI P3 primaries (as measured by both the Truelight projector probe and the PR655). The chart below shows these results. Note that I also made a very slight adjustment to the brightness setting to give the correct black cutoff point.
(https://s4.postimg.org/95bq8px2l/rec2020.png)
Once fully adjusted you can see that the white point is very close to the standard DCI white point and that the primaries are also very close. I was also able to shift the white point to D65 using the colour temperature controls in the projector without any significant change to the primaries which leads me to believe that the colour matrixing in the unit is pretty accurate.
The projector was producing a contrast ratio of around 5000:1 in this mode which is perfectly acceptable for colour grading and in the right environment (in conjunction with the high power lamp setting) would probably be ok for HDR work - although I would need to do a whole different set of tests in order to accurately check out the HDR profiling of the projector. As you know it is still very early days for the grading of movies in HDR, especially on smaller projectors such as the Z1 and I would need to first obtain appropriate display transforms in order to get sensible results for HDR. The luminance level was measured to be around 100cd/m2 with the lamp set to its medium value - this is somewhat high for standard DCI grading but it can be offset using the projector’s aperture adjustment or via the display profile if using a grading system such as Baselight and of course it would be lower on a larger screen.
From a configuration and usability perspective I would say that the process of setting it up could be made easier. The following factors make it a little hard to set up in the dark environment of a typical grading theatre:
- Menu system is a little tricky to navigate using the remote control
- As soon as you adjust most parameters they are stored into the current mode setting. It is therefore easy to accidentally adjust something you have already set - I would prefer all controls to allow you to make changes interactively and then choose to save them, or not.
- It is not entirely clear what the adjustments for the colour primaries (Color Management setting: Axis Position, Hue, Saturation, Brightness) are doing. I would prefer to see simple x,y adjustments for each primary. There also appeared to be interaction between some of the parameters although it wasn’t obvious what was going on. Finally, these adjustments didn’t appear to behave in a very linear fashion - changing the Axis position for example would have no visible effect at all for a few steps in value and then it would suddenly jump. This could imply excessive precision rounding in the internal processing or maybe a processing or UI bug.
For ease of calibration and setup I would prefer to have a software tool which I could run on a laptop - connected via the ethernet port on the back of the projector. The laptop could then be used to store and download profiles into the projector’s memories which could then be selected using the remote.
For mode selection you have:
Rec709
BT2020 Filter in place for UHD using BT2020 container.
HDR No filter in place but wider than Rec709 (86% DCI color space)
DCI Filter in place for DCI content (not using BT2020 container)
HDR is the mode that gives as wide of a color space as possible without the filter in place for use with UHD HDR.
So just got my copy of Planet Earth II Blu-Ray 4K HDR with no 4K projector to view it on. Has anybody watched it on a RS4500 yet?
The new firmware is online http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-z1_rs4500/ (http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-z1_rs4500/)
Not a lot of info regarding the "specific conditions" where the dynamic function is improved.
Anyone download it and try it yet ? I can't since I'm out of town for the weekend.
Also, not seeing the jumps with 1.10, but there is NO full fade to black. Retested this today, all three laser modes (iris 0), with a 0 IRE test pattern. My screen remains brighter than the room... My old Sony 1000 had a significantly [better] fade to black than the Z1.
Same with actual fades to black in movies ?
Also, not seeing the jumps with 1.10, but there is NO full fade to black. Retested this today, all three laser modes (iris 0), with a 0 IRE test pattern. My screen remains brighter than the room... My old Sony 1000 had a significantly [better] fade to black than the Z1.
Make sure you are using dynamic dimming mode 2. If you are using mode 1, it will not act the same.
Make sure you are using dynamic dimming mode 2. If you are using mode 1, it will not act the same.
Already tested, and no full fade for me with mode 2 either. Very strange indeed.
I just tested the scenes in the Blu Ray " Inglorious Bastards ", in the bar in the basement, where our Nazi impostors are being questioned by a real Nazi, and the scene switches quickly back and forth. A forum member here pointed to this as a torture test for dynamic irises ( I'm going to remember this one - good test ). Every time it switched from the impostors at the table ( bright ), to the real Nazi standing at the end of the table ( dark ), I could see the laser dimming " flick " closed ( mode 2 ) prior to the new firmware. With the new firmware update, I could barely see one instance of the dimming working, then it was totally seamless.
Settings - mid laser, mode 2 dimming, -7 manual iris, Natural user mode.
...problem with allowing firmware update to Dolby Vision, when come to think of it, is probably license cost... In such case; I also own a Tesla and I encourage JVC to think like mr. Musk; giving stuff away makes for loyal all the way!! 3 years of driving a Tesla I am yet to pay any roaming cost for data download, they gave me free Spotify a year ago and new features appear all the time... I´d be more than willing to pay a fee for a more functional HDR feature too by the way; highlights sub-programmed at a per frame level just makes so much more sense from a technical and logical standpoint than simply ripping the entire movies off of most of its dynamics to give room for the current HDR bull...
I must say the the HDR user preset has made me happy to just " plug and play " 4K UHD BR's at ths point. I think they look great ! :)
...problem with allowing firmware update to Dolby Vision, when come to think of it, is probably license cost... In such case; I also own a Tesla and I encourage JVC to think like mr. Musk; giving stuff away makes for loyal all the way!! 3 years of driving a Tesla I am yet to pay any roaming cost for data download, they gave me free Spotify a year ago and new features appear all the time... I´d be more than willing to pay a fee for a more functional HDR feature too by the way; highlights sub-programmed at a per frame level just makes so much more sense from a technical and logical standpoint than simply ripping the entire movies off of most of its dynamics to give room for the current HDR bull...
The question is will there be DV on 4K UHD Blu Ray before I amass any more movies ? I'm already up to about 40 titles.
The first Dolby Vision 4K Ultra HD Blu-rays appeared to have broken cover, and they are the Despicable Me and Despicable Me 2 animated movies from Universal Studios. A Dolby Vision logo was spotted on the back cover artwork of the discs by an eagle-eyed Blu-ray.com member, with the main feature description stating “UHD Dolby Vision/ HDR10 1.85:1 Widescreen”.
Despicable Me Dolby Vision 4K Blu-ray
If true, this makes them the first confirmed 4K Blu-ray titles to support Dolby Vision (DV). To date, all Ultra HD Blu-rays available to buy on the market are only compatible with the open-standard HDR10 format. To clarify, the Dolby Vision metadata will be embedded as an enhanced layer on top of the base HDR10 layer on these Despicable Me discs, so even if you don’t own a Dolby Vision-capable 4K Blu-ray player or HDR TV, you can still watch them in HDR10 ultra-high-definition (UHD) resolution.
(http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/image/news/dm2.jpg)
However, in theory Dolby Vision should offer a superior HDR presentation especially on lesser displays owing to the use of dynamic metadata, which is why many video enthusiasts are clamouring for Dolby Vision content and hardware. We did an indepth comparison of Dolby Vision versus HDR10 on a 2016 LG OLED TV, and thought the former to be better, but felt the advantages shrunk significantly on more capable TVs (specifically top-tier full-array local dimming LED LCDs with peak brightness above 1000 nits). That said, buying a high-end television in 2017 will likely become a tick-box exercise, with prospective buyers thinking twice before spending if Dolby Vision is absent.
Despicable Me and Despicable Me 2 are scheduled for release on the 6th of June 2017. LG’s 2016 and 2017 OLEDs already support Dolby Vision out of the box, and Sony’s ZD9/ Z9D, XE93/ XE94 and A1 OLED will hopefully receive DV firmware updates by then too. In terms of players, the LG UP970 and the OPPO 203 are two we know will bring Dolby Vision compatibility following software upgrades.
The Z1 might be good at tuning HDR from various mastering techniques for all I know by the way Craig! I have only tested the DLA-X5000 using the custom gamma curve and oversaturated settings manually on a screen that was acceptably sized for HDR (100"). Never even tested HDR on the Z1, my previous experience was such a disappointment that I simply have avoided HDR altogether. But you know what; I´ll give the Z1 a go @ HDR tomorrow, zooming in a 100-120" image, and I´ll do The Reverant + Deadpool again just to see if the automatic HDR stuff on the Z1 actually has been able to compensate somewhat for the issues with mastering differences... I´ll report back my findings! :)
...and if JVC had taken a quick lesson in "do count your chickens before they're hatched", like mr. Musk certainly must be the master of; they´d already introduce the DV update as a future option for the Z1... ;) Still, dynamic metadata will probably be available through regular (dynamic) HDR mastered movies too, question remains if HDMI 2.1 would be required in such case? It seems DV is able to deliver the metadata through HDMI 2.0a (18Gbps) though. Anyhow; new features will always appear and I am not saying people should wait it out - as one would certainly in such case wait forever - but as for current static HDR and projection I am really not a fan, obviously, but I´ll certainly give it a go on the Z1 just for the fun of it! :)
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/dv-bd-201703284449.htm
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/dv-bd-201703284449.htm
Ah, DV is already starting to roll out; let´s just hope JVC chooses to add DV to the Z1 / RS4500 - I mean - if LG and Sony is able to do so their TVs, JVC should have NO problem getting this update made out too provided it is possible to run via software and their processing is of sufficient capacity (...one would presume??)... Still, I´ll give HDR10 a go as well AVScraig, didn´t have time to do test it today, but metadata really should be far superior when light output is limited - provided again the mastering is of proper quality that is... :)
Did you get a chance to watch any UHD Blu Rays with the HDR preset yet? I had 4 friends over to watch " Sully " last night. One friend has been coming to my theater for quite some time, but hasn't watched a movie in my theater since I got the RS4500. What's fun about having an enclosed projector closet, is no one really knows what projector they are watching. he has seen quite a few movies on my previous RS600 and VW600. After the movie was over, he turned to me and said " that picture looked really sharp " ! ;D
Have to do some more testing, as my first attempt was very troublesome... Wanted to do some Auro-3D native testing as well on our Datasat RS20i, so I threw Ghostbusters 2 HDR in the player. Terrible black crush, had to increase brightness by 10 points to somewhat compensate for the crush so totally off. Using a Panasonic UB900, just updated with the latest firmware. As for the Z1 I just left everything to default HDR mode. Might be some setting on the UB900 I have missed, I´ll have to try adjusting back to SDR convertion again to see if the black crush remains, but as far as I can recall this particular disc played fine before... So, I guess I need to do some more testing, but thus far I´m still not very impressed by the "plug-and-play" HDR overall system although it might not be the Z1 that is the only accountable party and also this might not apply to other movies, will do some more testing next week for sure! :)
AND - have to underline this as well, did see a number of reference standard blu-ray-clips as well to check the dimming after the firmware update and the unit really performs excellent. I do still see a BIT more pulses / instabilities on the Z1 than the Epson LS10K though, but I guess JVC might be able to do yet another minor fine tuning to get the dimming perfect... Still, overall sharpness, massive light output - and actually quite impressive black levels and also dynamics as well now provides excellent image quality even on the 13 feet wide screen currently being used (@0,8 gain UltraWeave V6). At home I have a Epson LS10K on my 11 feet screen and it´s really no comparison to the Z1 in sharpness, light output and overall performance. LS10K is certainly an OK machine though, but I have to say I prefer the JVC DLA-X5000 (RS420) on just about every aspect over the LS10K except for the laser light source... Suffice to say; the Z1 would have been perfect in my particular setting, but my current surroundings does not allow such a beast to be mounted so I guess my next "test candidate" will be the JVC DLA-X7500 (RS520) as soon as I get my hands on one... Still, the laser light is really appealing, so for people with the proper room (and funds... ;)) I´m quite sure this is one of the top picks at the moment!
Have to do some more testing, as my first attempt was very troublesome... Wanted to do some Auro-3D native testing as well on our Datasat RS20i, so I threw Ghostbusters 2 HDR in the player. Terrible black crush, had to increase brightness by 10 points to somewhat compensate for the crush so totally off. Using a Panasonic UB900, just updated with the latest firmware. As for the Z1 I just left everything to default HDR mode. Might be some setting on the UB900 I have missed, I´ll have to try adjusting back to SDR convertion again to see if the black crush remains, but as far as I can recall this particular disc played fine before... So, I guess I need to do some more testing, but thus far I´m still not very impressed by the "plug-and-play" HDR overall system although it might not be the Z1 that is the only accountable party and also this might not apply to other movies, will do some more testing next week for sure! :)
AND - have to underline this as well, did see a number of reference standard blu-ray-clips as well to check the dimming after the firmware update and the unit really performs excellent. I do still see a BIT more pulses / instabilities on the Z1 than the Epson LS10K though, but I guess JVC might be able to do yet another minor fine tuning to get the dimming perfect... Still, overall sharpness, massive light output - and actually quite impressive black levels and also dynamics as well now provides excellent image quality even on the 13 feet wide screen currently being used (@0,8 gain UltraWeave V6). At home I have a Epson LS10K on my 11 feet screen and it´s really no comparison to the Z1 in sharpness, light output and overall performance. LS10K is certainly an OK machine though, but I have to say I prefer the JVC DLA-X5000 (RS420) on just about every aspect over the LS10K except for the laser light source... Suffice to say; the Z1 would have been perfect in my particular setting, but my current surroundings does not allow such a beast to be mounted so I guess my next "test candidate" will be the JVC DLA-X7500 (RS520) as soon as I get my hands on one... Still, the laser light is really appealing, so for people with the proper room (and funds... ;)) I´m quite sure this is one of the top picks at the moment!
Are you using Kris Deering's settings for the HDR pre - set ?
" For HDR I use the HDR color profile despite not having quite as much saturation for red as BT2020. One thing I would suggest, take the dark level adjustment in the HDR gamma all the way to max (7). This will not hurt your black floor but it levels out the luminance better and gives HDR images a much better image without looking too dark or overly contrasty. For picture tone I raised it 1 click and I left bright level alone at 0. I think I am running mid laser with aperture fully open for HDR and the laser in mode 2. All standard controls are set to 0. "
Thanks, will try! :)
Tested X-Men: Apocalypse and I have to say (finally); WOW! Light output is still about the same as with regular SDR now, and no black crush as far as I could tell. Dynamics looks very good, for example in the factory at the start of the movie where sparks are far more dynamically reproduced than in regular SDR mode while still maintaining overall brightness. I´ll certainly try some more discs, but using the latest firmware on UB900 / Z1 seems to finally have unlocked the true HDR potential of this setup! :) I will also try the Kris Deering HDR tweak that was suggested here and see if this improves the performance any further, but again; on this particular movie at least, HDR mode introduces neither any significant loss of light output as far as I can tell and also retains details in blacks - and seems to work fine also on my 13 feet wide 0.8 gain AT screen - good riddance!! Also, I did not see the laser pulse once during my 20 minutes or so test...
Probably I should add that I adjusted the HDR mode to max light output on the UB900, a feature I do not believe was available until quite recently? Anyhow; auto HDR @ Z1 (RS4500) + max bright HDR mode @ UB900 really seems to be an excellent combo also for larger screen setups. I might not get all the "HDR dynamics" available, but there is certainly some added dynamics, but only at a very slight cost of light. Just like I "ordered", only thing that might be even better is Dolby Vision - but I guess for projectors and all variables accounted for, the DV would end up reducing the HDR-effect to just about the same level I´m using now anyhow, so why bother... ;)
Probably I should add that I adjusted the HDR mode to max light output on the UB900, a feature I do not believe was available until quite recently? Anyhow; auto HDR @ Z1 (RS4500) + max bright HDR mode @ UB900 really seems to be an excellent combo also for larger screen setups. I might not get all the "HDR dynamics" available, but there is certainly some added dynamics, but only at a very slight cost of light. Just like I "ordered", only thing that might be even better is Dolby Vision - but I guess for projectors and all variables accounted for, the DV would end up reducing the HDR-effect to just about the same level I´m using now anyhow, so why bother... ;)
Probably I should add that I adjusted the HDR mode to max light output on the UB900, a feature I do not believe was available until quite recently? Anyhow; auto HDR @ Z1 (RS4500) + max bright HDR mode @ UB900 really seems to be an excellent combo also for larger screen setups. I might not get all the "HDR dynamics" available, but there is certainly some added dynamics, but only at a very slight cost of light.
Be careful with this setting, putting it to max will clip a lot of highlights in a movie with has some very bright scenes.
I added two pictures with the HDR slider to 6 and then to max with is 12, you can see that almost all of the white details in the snow and sky are gone.
It can be certainly very helpful but should be used with a lot of care, in darker movies where there is not to much of highlights you can probably afford to go a bit higher.
Just put in the Spyder man disc and put the clipping pattern on with the code on the remote, when you adjust the HDR slider on the Pan. you can seer perfectly what you are clipping.
The UHD of Everest is a good test to do this, some very good scenes with high picture level to play around with the slider.
I must say that when playing around there is definitely a lot of benefit to get, in combination with the updated software on the Z1 I will not use the trip HDR metadata with the Fury integral anymore.
I did adjust the Black gamma on the Pana. with just one click, to get some extra detail in the blacks, the HDR slider is on 7 and laser is on mid with max setting and auto dimming on 2.
Everest is a great test disc - several snow scenes to watch to make sure that details in the glacier / snow scenes aren't being lost.
It is, you can find some good scenes to play with the HDR slider and see how far you can go before things get worse instead of better :-)
Thanks for the heads up Jetsen, will try lower it to avoid clipping. I hope this new UB900-feature does not introduce issues in the greyscale-tracking which is clearly the case when reducing HDR-level on the Epson E-shift projectors for example... HDR is seemingly a rather tough beast to tame....! ;)
Thanks for the heads up Jetsen, will try lower it to avoid clipping. I hope this new UB900-feature does not introduce issues in the greyscale-tracking which is clearly the case when reducing HDR-level on the Epson E-shift projectors for example... HDR is seemingly a rather tough beast to tame....! ;)
Are you guys feeding the projector SDR from the player letting it do the HDR to SDR convertion?
If so what SDR gamma are you running.?
Are you guys feeding the projector SDR from the player letting it do the HDR to SDR convertion?
If so what SDR gamma are you running.?
Are you guys feeding the projector SDR from the player letting it do the HDR to SDR convertion?
If so what SDR gamma are you running.?
Also watching HDR with the Panasonic, with the new added dynamic range feature on the Panasonic mostly on +5, laser in mid and auto laser dimming mode on 2.
I like what I see so far, no complaints a little to much noise perhaps as the Z1 is right above my head and in mid laser it gets a bit louder.
Can you please snap a picture of the panasonic menu where you set the new dynamic range feature.
Have any of you trying to calibrate a lower gamma, and not touching the clipping poins, preserving the full level of information, just compressing it a bit by straightening out the gamma, wich ramps it out of black faster ?
Not adjusting in the player as it seems to always add clipping.
It looks to me like the SDR output of the Panasonic (HDR converted to SDR) will work much better if the projector is calibrated to around 2.0-2.2 SDR gamma, depending the movie, and not touching the convertion slider in the player.
I do it in a Lumagen radiance to manipulate the gamma curve, i wonder how that would work on the JVC.
Can you please snap a picture of the panasonic menu where you set the new dynamic range feature.
Have any of you trying to calibrate a lower gamma, and not touching the clipping poins, preserving the full level of information, just compressing it a bit by straightening out the gamma, wich ramps it out of black faster ?
Not adjusting in the player as it seems to always add clipping.
It looks to me like the SDR output of the Panasonic (HDR converted to SDR) will work much better if the projector is calibrated to around 2.0-2.2 SDR gamma, depending the movie, and not touching the convertion slider in the player.
I do it in a Lumagen radiance to manipulate the gamma curve, i wonder how that would work on the JVC.
Whats going on with the SMPTE pattern here, that looks all messed up, is that normal.?
Whats going on with the SMPTE pattern here, that looks all messed up, is that normal.?
Pardon my ignorance, but what's messed up about it?The resolution section changes colors and distorted, might be some convergence scaling, or other kind of enhancement processing.
The resolution section changes colors and distorted, might be some convergence scaling, or other kind of enhancement processing.
Ill guess someone here with the projector has tested it, and know if its normal.. Do you guys have a UHD SMPTE pattern as well.?
I can't recall that I have seen this kind of problems when testing it, i think there is an UHD SMPTE pattern in the 4K Muridio generator, i will try and test it again when I have the time, but I can't imagine that someone is feeding a Z1 with interlaced signals.
Or is it possible this is an artifact from the video itself. I didn't look at that pattern with the RS4500. I looked at others though and saw no issues. May have panel alignment on, or not in native for aspect. There are A LOT of settings that can have effects on fine resolution patterns. You just have to start from 0 and see how it goes.
...will there be a 4K JVC light bulb projector that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?...
That's the $ 10,000 question ( see what I did there :) ) !
Probably - but the better question is what year, or even which decade ?
Craig,
...you know, I can't believe that a company such as JVC would put on the market
a 4K projector that's almost out of financial reach for many. I would think that
they would realize that, if they want to make a go for 4K, that it should be made
available to a larger purchasing population at a price that doesn't require taking
out a second mortgage.
...but I can't say that I'm unhappy with the e-shift JVC that I have combined with
the OPPO 205...I guess, as you point out, time will tell.
Craig,
...you know, I can't believe that a company such as JVC would put on the market
a 4K projector that's almost out of financial reach for many. I would think that
they would realize that, if they want to make a go for 4K, that it should be made
available to a larger purchasing population at a price that doesn't require taking
out a second mortgage.
...but I can't say that I'm unhappy with the e-shift JVC that I have combined with
the OPPO 205...I guess, as you point out, time will tell.
Frankly, the RS4500 is a bargain compared to the Sim Lumis I used to have ( also $35K ).
Just curious: how is the RS4500 a bargain when the price is the same? Because you're getting 4k for the same price that 1080 costed back then? In other words, the Lumis was SOTA at the time and the RS4500 is SOTA now.
Slightly off topic, is there any aspect of performance of the RS4500 that isn't as good as your Lumis was? e.g. ANSI?
I just went true the review, and wondered why the screenshots was so full of edge ringing and artifacts?
Its not lack of image resolution on the shots, so is the images processed to look that bad, or is it actually just capturing whats on screen.?
I snapped a few shots of my own projector to compare, from the Blu Ray Oblivion, 1080P on a CRT projector, and even been trying adding massive Darbee (70%) and also some edge and detail enhancement, without beeing able to reproduce the amount of distortion shown on the JVC Z1 screenshots..
Would be interesting if someone else would take a shot at that Oblivion scene from a Z1.
It's hard to see a difference on my computer between those shots, but I see no ringing / edge enhancement on my RS4500 / Z1. Of course the settings on the source device, and any number of things that can happen to screen shot between the camera and you can also effect them. I put no weight into screen shots for that very reason - they are " for entertainment purposes only ". After all, I have a laptop - not a calibrated display here.
Its pretty hard to find a camera that ad as much distortion as is seen on the Z1 screenshots, unless you take a cell phone, normaly you can use screenshots to see artifacts and ringing, no problem, just dont look for color / calibration, its amasing how well a camera picks up the distortion on screen..
But the screenshots in the linked review is sooo bad that its hard to see why they are addet, they are confusing more than helping, They just as well use a SD projector for comparison, as none of the pics are capable of showing high resolution qualities.
Thats why it would be more interesting to see someone else post a decent screenshot, showing off the detail level on a Z1, and prove its not as noisy and distorted as the review make it look like.
Hi everybody :)
I have just put online the first french review about the DLA-Z1 :) Great picture but IMHO not better than the JVC DLA-X9500 under 3 meters widescreen. You might find some pictures comparaison in the review with the Sony VPL-VW550ES, the BenQ W11000 and of course the JVC DLA-X9500.
http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/2017/04/30/test-jvc-dla-z1/
Google translation :
https://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projection-homecinema.fr%2F2017%2F04%2F30%2Ftest-jvc-dla-z1%2F&edit-text=
I just went true the review, and wondered why the screenshots was so full of edge ringing and artifacts?
Its not lack of image resolution on the shots, so is the images processed to look that bad, or is it actually just capturing whats on screen.?
I snapped a few shots of my own projector to compare, from the Blu Ray Oblivion, 1080P on a CRT projector, and even been trying adding massive Darbee (70%) and also some edge and detail enhancement, without beeing able to reproduce the amount of distortion shown on the JVC Z1 screenshots..
Would be interesting if someone else would take a shot at that Oblivion scene from a Z1.
This post addresses these screen shots - http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2514257-jvc-4k-native-laser-projector-confirm-152.html#post52644609
That would require good camera equipment, which I'm lacking. An iPhone 4 or the cheapest Canon point n shoot probably won't add anything useful.
I just went true the review, and wondered why the screenshots was so full of edge ringing and artifacts?
Its not lack of image resolution on the shots, so is the images processed to look that bad, or is it actually just capturing whats on screen.?
I snapped a few shots of my own projector to compare, from the Blu Ray Oblivion, 1080P on a CRT projector, and even been trying adding massive Darbee (70%) and also some edge and detail enhancement, without beeing able to reproduce the amount of distortion shown on the JVC Z1 screenshots..
Would be interesting if someone else would take a shot at that Oblivion scene from a Z1.
Im sure some or one of you guys here that have a Z1 have a decent DSLR camera. even the point and shoot camera might do quite a lot better than the shots posted, and the cell phone will do fine for a SMPTE pattern shot, as it will have no problem showing if there is color shift/ distortion on the 1:1 vertical/ horizontal resolution, wich is quite normal on non DLP projectors.
In one of the RS4500 thread on AVS, there is the same 4K pattern, shot with an iphone 7 and it even looks better than the shot in the review. Here is a link.That shows the heavy color shift on the 1:1 horizontal lines like in the video of the SMPTE pattern, anyway it will be interesting to see somebody step up the game and fully document how the Z1 handle with different settings and modes, and include both testpatterns and movie content, whats been represented so far only shows that the Z1 has some problems resolving a UHD source signal.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2514257-jvc-4k-native-laser-projector-confirm-153.html#post52653161
Does anyone know if the RS4500/Z1 can handle the vertical stretch so that an anamorphic lens can be used?
I believe earlier in this thread, Kris posted that the RS4500 fully resolved 4K test patterns and that the RS4500 fully resolved 1080P test patterns. He said that the Sony 4K units, had problems fully resolving the 1080P test patterns.
Anyone?
Different people define resolve in different ways.. If the green color distortion on the 1:1 horizontal line pattern is a limitation in the panels, or processing, ill say it cant fully resolve UHD, and ill also say that it will be hard to find a projector, or display that actually resolve the source material 100%, ill even claim that its has never been made..
Would be interesting to see where this new piece of toy is on the resolution scale.
If there is someone with a Z1, a camera and some good testpatterns + movies, it would be interesting for some of us mortals to get some insight into the capabilities of the latest tech.
I do not have any 4K test patterns. Only 4K source device I have is an Oppo 203.
Im sure you can find some good UHD test patterns online and run them from a USB stick in the OPPO.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2463698-r-masciola-s-hdr-10-uhd-test-patterns.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlLFOrWvY_M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlLFOrWvY_M&index=2&list=PLFZHfgcAmenvO9qx7YI1Veb0gEPEfZVUI#t=14.414026
I just went true the review, and wondered why the screenshots was so full of edge ringing and artifacts?
Its not lack of image resolution on the shots, so is the images processed to look that bad, or is it actually just capturing whats on screen.?
I snapped a few shots of my own projector to compare, from the Blu Ray Oblivion, 1080P on a CRT projector, and even been trying adding massive Darbee (70%) and also some edge and detail enhancement, without beeing able to reproduce the amount of distortion shown on the JVC Z1 screenshots..
Would be interesting if someone else would take a shot at that Oblivion scene from a Z1.
Different people define resolve in different ways.. If the green color distortion on the 1:1 horizontal line pattern is a limitation in the panels, or processing, ill say it cant fully resolve UHD, and ill also say that it will be hard to find a projector, or display that actually resolve the source material 100%, ill even claim that its has never been made..
Would be interesting to see where this new piece of toy is on the resolution scale.
If there is someone with a Z1, a camera and some good testpatterns + movies, it would be interesting for some of us mortals to get some insight into the capabilities of the latest tech.
Thats not distortion, and a limitation in the panels, where are you getting this information?
That's classic panel convergence issue, which I am sure is easy fixed with a quick panel alignment. I know for a fact this image was photographed when that projector was essentially about 2 hours old, and I am betting it has not been on for very long when that image was taken.
I have seen it before on my '1080p' projectors, and I have removed it before only with a couple clicks in alignment.
I just got my RS4500. I am coming from a Sim2 C3X1080.
When I first turned it on it was like a jet engine in my room. Took me quite a while to find out how to change the laser power and it was a small consolation to find it was on high. I'm going to have to consider a hush box of some sort. On low power the fan noise is similar to my Sim2 on med/high lamp. I was not expecting this much noise considering my Sim2 was much louder than any JVC I've ever experienced.
I have no issues with contrast. I was fighting with a lot of black crush but I adopted Kris Deering's settings (which involved going up from Low laser to Med laser and employing the manual iris aperture and it's much better.
What I do have an issue with is how smeared the image looks (only watched 1080 so far). Faces are like magazine covers where photos have been airbrushed. Nobody has wrinkles or facial detail - at least not compared to what I was used to. I guess this is the low ANSI contrast of LCOS. It reminds me of playing DVDs (standard definition) on my Sim2. In that situation there simply wasn't the resolution on the disc, but in this case with 1080 the resolution is just not making it to the screen (or it's being upscaled poorly, but I don't think so). Again, tradeoffs of different technologies I presume.
And thats exactely why i requested a screenshot from someone else with a final setup.. My experience is that the convergence adjustment messes up the resolution, as its actually a warp feature/ scaling, and not a panel alignment, and any scaling have a negative effect on resolution, and the SMPTE pattern is designed in a way that no panel alignment error will make a visible color shift when you step back to a distance where you can not define/ focus the resolution, as its a ½ black ½ white pattern area in 3 different resolutions in both horizontal and vertical.. so if you snap a pic of that pattern out of focus all 6 resolution squares should represent the same gray/ identical light output, with no color polution/ shift.
If you cant do that you cant resolve the resolution, wich is quite normal for all other than DLP projectors.
Try out the pattern addet here, its a 1080P pattern designed to show bandwidth/ resolution tracking to gain/ light output. So a bit more advanced resolution test pattern, and dont worry to picture the lines or the resolution, just snap a shot out of focus and look if all pattern groups is uniform, or whatever happens.
why are the pattern files above 1920x1090, and not 1080?
I linked to some UHD patterns from youtube, with 1:1 horizontal and vertival resolutions, would be interesting to see how they look on the Z1
They are screenshots, I am just sending you VLC Screengrabs. The patterns are from the AVS709 suite, they are easy to find.
The original files are right, looks like you just found a bug in VLC's screen-shot tool I wasnt aware of. Pretty odd.
This is the 4K pattern which WAS checked by multiple people on the Z1. Including in the shot which you saw distortion on shot on the iphone, which I still think was due to cold panels.
Its from the Masciola suite, there is no need to use other patterns, it has 1 pixel width lines on it.
(http://i.imgur.com/oti8XJj.png)
I might be able to take a good photo. Can you point me to where I can get the pattern?
Just download some of the UHD patterns posted here and save them on a USB stick if you have a player that will work with that.
Ahh, OK, didn't realize they were 3840x2160. Thanks, I've been trying to find test patterns so this will be very helpful.
I've got some screen shots here - https://discuss.avscience.com/?topic=292.new#new
Would you be able to download or run some of the UHD patterns from youtube and snap a shot of those?
For those near Rochester NY, If you want to see the RS4500 in action along with a Triad Silver sound system in a treated room, come to our store. The room is pretty much finished, except for Atmos speakers. Still waiting on Triad to start shipping the Silver/9 RotaSat Atmos speakers. In the 2nd room (media room), you can view an RS420 or RS400.
The building construction is still going on, but our area is pretty much complete.
I'm picking up my new RS4500 tomorrow and hope to be installing this weekend (as long as the mount shows up in time!). I will post some measurements to see if they still stack up to the ones I took for the review.
Excellent - you must be so excited!
I'm still trying to get used to mine (coming from 3 chip DLP) and looking forward to seeing what I think after having it calibrated this coming Monday.
I'm also trying to decide whether to use my ISCO III or zoom. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
Who calibrated it? :)
Zoom here too. The Z1 is very slow to zoom, but seems more accurate than my Sony 1000 was.
I use laser mode/iris to brightness balance both zoom modes for consistent presentation.
Glad to hear you're doing separate calibrations, a must for this to work properly.
I'm using a Lumagen Pro in my setup so I rarely have to use the memories as I just use the aspect ratio control in the Lumagen most of the time. But if I know I'm gonna watch a whole film that is 1.78:1 I will change the zoom to try and eliminate the scaling (though it is so good in the Lumagen I don't think most would even notice the difference!).
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a LUT?
Very nice! Love the 'circuit board' wall treatments!
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a LUT?
So, Kris, did you get the projector and mount?
He mentioned on the AVSforum thread that he put his back out a bit when he was unloading the 4500 with his wife. He's hoping to get it up soon as he's up to it.
For Star Wars watch the opening sequence after the title crawl with the ship's shadow covering the planet and the small ships appearing from behind it. How does the dynamic laser do with this scene in your setup?
For Oblivion, how does it do with the opening credits that are right after the Universal logo and before the flashback (there are only a few)?
I got the 4500 up on Saturday. Have had a long weekend due to the back issues, which are slowly getting better. I'm seeing some weird results with the new dynamic laser implementation. If anyone here on the forum can help, I'd like them to look at two different scenes for me. Using the Blu-ray's of Star Wars The Force Awakens and Oblivion, send 1080p to the 4500 (not scaled to 4K). For Star Wars watch the opening sequence after the title crawl with the ship's shadow covering the planet and the small ships appearing from behind it. How does the dynamic laser do with this scene in your setup? For Oblivion, how does it do with the opening credits that are right after the Universal logo and before the flashback (there are only a few)? Any feedback on these would be appreciated.
Why do I need to send 1080p and not 4K ? Just curious as I don't watch any Blu-rays that way. I upscale everything in my UB900 by default. I have both movies - and I have Oblivion on 4K too, which I think looks pretty good, despite some of the criticism that disc has gotten.
Here's what I noticed with Star Wars:
Laser mid, Dynamic iris mode 2.
1) As the final title crawl recesses the entire screen dims down in 2 discrete steps.
2) As the large ship engulfs the planet, the planet itself (and I assume the entire screen) dims down dramatically and fades to black.
With Dynamic Iris off:
1) the screen doesn't dim when the final titles are in the distance
2) Before the planet is in the scene, I see stars, then the camera pans down to reveal the planet (with dynamic iris it was a black screen!). When large ship flys by the planet, the planet does not dim.... BUT the scene does NOT fade to black and I continue to see the large ship fly by as well as the smaller ones 'turn'.
Wow, this is really something. It's like the dynamic iris completely closed the lens.
I first watched with Dynamic mode 2 and saw the first title appear faintly, then the 2nd title appear, disappear and re-appear again.
With Dynamic mode OFF, I could see that the titles 'wipe' in from left to right and the 2nd title doesn't disappear & reappear again.
Is this what you're seeing?
The dynamic laser does not go to full black if you send 4K, so I wanted to see if the things I'm seeing are only with a 1080p signal being sent vs a 4K.
Interesting. I will see if I can get a 100% blackout with a 4K input.
As for the issue I'm seeing, it is not a problem with a 4K input. I looked at both the opening titles of Oblivion and the scene from Star Wars and both looked fine if the projector is receiving a 4K signal. I've reported this to JVC, so hopefully they'll have a look at it.
Now if someone could just make " black " look the same with 4K UHD Blu-rays as it does with Blu-ray content, I'd be real happy. That's a source material / 4K standard issue. And whomever decided that was a good idea should be yelled at. Sometimes I think 1080p source material can look better than 4K source material because of this. At least that breathes new life into my Blu-ray collection !
I was totally surprised to see how good the fade to black scenes looked watching " 60 Minutes " last night. I don't usually watch that in the theater.
HDR has differing black levels because the encode is a direct translation of what the mastering was done at. So if they mastered with a display with a .005 black level instead of 0, you see what they see. With standard HDR displays this isn't a problem, but with projectors that don't take that into account, it is. You could use the Arve tool and fix the issue though, it has a way to compensate for this. That is my next step this week, making a custom curve for my 4500 in mid laser. The fan noise in high laser is just too much for me (mid is actually more than I'd like).
If you have the Masciola test patterns, just set brightness to clip at digital 78 (81 still flashing) and you should be good to go for brightness.
My projector was calibrated yesterday by Ken Whitcomb. It looks great. I had some black crush with SDR previously and of course he fixed that. The only downside is that a black screen is grey, not black and the corners are brighter, reminding me of my old JVC RS1.
I have the weirdest issue that is driving me nuts and in the off chance that someone here can shed any light on it, I'm going to mention it. It shouldn't be related to my new projector but the problem surfaced when the RS4500 arrived on the scene. My FIOS Motorola STB has a lip-sync problem that is very severe. It turns out the audio is delayed so I can't correct via the typical lip-sync features in my pre/processor. There don't seem to be any settings in the STB that I can look to for a cure and googling hasn't helped. Any ideas? Why this would happen when I switch projectors I cannot figure out (all other sources are fine, including others going through the pre/processor).
My projector was calibrated yesterday by Ken Whitcomb. It looks great. I had some black crush with SDR previously and of course he fixed that. The only downside is that a black screen is grey, not black and the corners are brighter, reminding me of my old JVC RS1.
I have the weirdest issue that is driving me nuts and in the off chance that someone here can shed any light on it, I'm going to mention it. It shouldn't be related to my new projector but the problem surfaced when the RS4500 arrived on the scene. My FIOS Motorola STB has a lip-sync problem that is very severe. It turns out the audio is delayed so I can't correct via the typical lip-sync features in my pre/processor. There don't seem to be any settings in the STB that I can look to for a cure and googling hasn't helped. Any ideas? Why this would happen when I switch projectors I cannot figure out (all other sources are fine, including others going through the pre/processor).
The RS4500 doesn't have the native contrast of the newer JVCs and is more in line with the performance of the older JVCs.
A LUT is a data Look-Up-Table... used to calibrate displays.
http://calman.spectracal.com/creating-3d-luts.html
Oh believe me, I know. My RS1 had 15k native contrast (according to specs). The RS4500 is, what, half that?
I assumed it would at least beat the contrast of my 10 year old Sim2, but it's a lot closer than I hoped. I just didn't expect the bright corners.
Oh believe me, I know. My RS1 had 15k native contrast (according to specs). The RS4500 is, what, half that?
I assumed it would at least beat the contrast of my 10 year old Sim2, but it's a lot closer than I hoped. I just didn't expect the bright corners.
What your actual native contrast will be all depends on what aperture setting you are using. WORST case is around 8K:1. But if you are using the aperture it is probably higher. I am getting about 14,000:1, but with the RS620 I was getting closer to 60K:1 in my setup native (way higher than that with the DI engaged).
I haven't seen bright corners on mine, just FYI. Hopefully you only see them on test patterns.
I have an RS1 now so could probably go to the RS4500 without being annoyed by the lack of contrast. But going from an RS620 seems like it might be a difficult compromise. :)
I have an RS1 now so could probably go to the RS4500 without being annoyed by the lack of contrast. But going from an RS620 seems like it might be a difficult compromise. :)
Only on a few scenes ( I'm coming from an RS600 ) do I wish I had more contrast. Most of the time things look better - cleaner image than the RS600, and 4k looks outstanding. It's just the rare scene that you can tell that there is less contrast. Hell, I even put " Dark City " on, and it look pretty darn good !
I got the 4500 up on Saturday. Have had a long weekend due to the back issues, which are slowly getting better. I'm seeing some weird results with the new dynamic laser implementation. If anyone here on the forum can help, I'd like them to look at two different scenes for me. Using the Blu-ray's of Star Wars The Force Awakens and Oblivion, send 1080p to the 4500 (not scaled to 4K). For Star Wars watch the opening sequence after the title crawl with the ship's shadow covering the planet and the small ships appearing from behind it. How does the dynamic laser do with this scene in your setup? For Oblivion, how does it do with the opening credits that are right after the Universal logo and before the flashback (there are only a few)? Any feedback on these would be appreciated.
I have the weirdest issue that is driving me nuts and in the off chance that someone here can shed any light on it, I'm going to mention it. It shouldn't be related to my new projector but the problem surfaced when the RS4500 arrived on the scene. My FIOS Motorola STB has a lip-sync problem that is very severe. It turns out the audio is delayed so I can't correct via the typical lip-sync features in my pre/processor. There don't seem to be any settings in the STB that I can look to for a cure and googling hasn't helped. Any ideas? Why this would happen when I switch projectors I cannot figure out (all other sources are fine, including others going through the pre/processor).
The Z1 added a lot of extra a/v delay to my setup and I had to remeasure and correct to remove lipsync issues...
So I just watched these scenes, but let my UB900 send upscaled 4K. I also used the Oblivion Blu-ray rather than the 4K disc.
Star Wars : The Force Awakens. the title crawl looks just like all the other movies - title lines are fairly bright yellow, and slowly fade into the background until they are so small I can barely see them. I don't see the dynamic iris work at all. I watched until the attack on the planet. The small ships coming around the large ship look spectacular - they are fairly bright. Once the large ship fills the screen, there is good shadow detail. Didn't see the dynamic iris work once during the first 5 minutes.
I watched " Memento " tonight, and I did see the iris trip up a few times, so it is working.
" For Oblivion, how does it do with the opening credits that are right after the Universal logo and before the flashback (there are only a few)? Any feedback on these would be appreciated. " - two scenes of one line each of white credits on a black background. Doesn't look any different than if I watched it on my RS600. No iris detected. Then the B & W flashback scene. I watched the credit twice just to be sure. Looks like white credits on a black background. Nothing unusual.
That's exactly what I'm seeing if I send the video via 4K. You should take a look at the same scenes in 1080p and see how much difference it makes! Nasty dynamic dimming artifacts!
When you say 'remeasure' is there a way to do this? When the video is delayed, can one correct that in a device like a Lumagen (I'm just curious, not about to buy a Lumagen for TV, lol).
When you say 'remeasure' is there a way to do this? When the video is delayed, can one correct that in a device like a Lumagen (I'm just curious, not about to buy a Lumagen for TV, lol).
One interesting thing - it seemed like turning on CMD to high improved audio sync, and it didn't have any affect on the picture ( since it's already shot on video, at least what I watched at the time ).
My Denon X7200WA has audio delay for each source, so that's how I'm going to do it. Haven't got it totally dialed in yet though. One interesting thing - it seemed like turning on CMD to high improved audio sync, and it didn't have any affect on the picture ( since it's already shot on video, at least what I watched at the time ).
Craig, my issue is that the audio is delayed, not the video. If it was video, I could fix it in the manner you describe (by adding an audio delay in my pre/pro). That said, I'll try CMD and see what happens. I did try DVR'd (recorded) material and while the audio was still off, it wasn't off to the same degree.
Craig, my issue is that the audio is delayed, not the video. If it was video, I could fix it in the manner you describe (by adding an audio delay in my pre/pro). That said, I'll try CMD and see what happens. I did try DVR'd (recorded) material and while the audio was still off, it wasn't off to the same degree.
Thanks for the clarification. Ken didn't measure the contrast and I thought it only improved with the dynamic laser, so I will now assume that with the aperture at -7 (which is where I have it) that the contrast is higher than 8k.
I see them on black scenes (e.g. fade to blacks).
Do you see this when you feed 1080P content to the projector?
Just wanted to give a heads up for owners, the Arve tool that JVC owners have been using to generate custom HDR curves for their projectors does work with the 4500. I was able to generate a few curves last night and they loaded just fine. This enabled me to use the projector in mid laser with a great looking image until I figure out how to quiet down the projector in high laser. So if you're itching to get the best HDR performance possible, I'd look into using the tool! There is TONS of information on how to use it over at AVS in the other JVC threads.
Thanks, that's exciting news! One quick question before I dive in: is this something that only calibrators can use - or put another way, does it require expensive calibration tools and a steep learning curve?
No calibration tools required at all, just a laptop that can connect to the projector via Cat5. There is a learning curve, but there are also some quick guides over at AVS that will get you good results with ease. Plus, there is ZERO risk of screwing anything up and when you learn how to use the tool you can just continually change the parameters and dial in the image to your liking. You can save up to three different curves on the projector, but I can create and load one faster than I typed this post, so updates are simple.
Just wanted to give a heads up for owners, the Arve tool that JVC owners have been using to generate custom HDR curves for their projectors does work with the 4500. I was able to generate a few curves last night and they loaded just fine. This enabled me to use the projector in mid laser with a great looking image until I figure out how to quiet down the projector in high laser. So if you're itching to get the best HDR performance possible, I'd look into using the tool! There is TONS of information on how to use it over at AVS in the other JVC threads.
Yes. I think it's also there on 4k content but to be honest I'm not entirely sure since I've mostly been playing my movie server (ripped 2k blurays). But I don't use the dynamic laser with non-4k content (in case that's where you were going with this).
Using dynamic dimming mode 2 and with the latest firmware you should not see any bright corners, because the laser turns completely off on a fade to black with 1080P content. And even with 4K content, it turns almost all the way off. So much so that I can't make hand puppets on my screen, so it should not show bright corners.
I rarely use the dynamic laser since it is very distracting and imo needs a lot of improvement. Of course with 1080p content we now know (courtesy of Kris) that is very problematic.
Interesting that you find it distracting. I find it works quite well most of the time. Then again, I haven't found any D.I. that works 100% perfect 100% of the time.
It probably depends on the material. On Underworld UHD it worked great. I'll have to try it more with 4k material (of which I've only watched one movie so far and sampled 3 or 4 others). Most of what I've been checking out is 1080p material since I have a movie server with thousands of titles which I can watch instantaneously (no loading times etc) and I can surf around quickly.
I tried the dynamic laser for the first time in a while the other day and immediately spotted a lag jump. Turned it back off. I don't miss the dynamic laser at all, although I would like FFTB. There should be an option that just gives that and no other dimming...
Mark, when you say 'lag jump' do you mean missed video frames or are you describing changes in brightness only?
The scene changes and a split second later the dynamic laser changes. Lag.
Anyone got a calibrated Z1 where they can run and take a pic of this testpattern.?
Anyone got a calibrated Z1 where they can run and take a pic of this testpattern.?
Where is this pattern sourced from?
That sounds more like how the dynamic dimming worked, before the firmware update.
Where is this pattern sourced from?
Anyone got a calibrated Z1 where they can run and take a pic of this testpattern.?
Why are you pushing on with asking if someone can take screenshots of the 4500? Are you considering buying one or are you just looking for something to nitpick?
Why are you asking ?
Somewhat off topic but I saw Wonder Woman tonight. I enjoyed it a lot (and I'm not a big superhero fan). I don't see all that many movies at the cinema so I paid close attention to the quality. It was good, but in no way better than the RS4500. I look forward to the HDR version of this film and seeing how it looks in my theater. I think it will be better.
Just wanted to give a heads up for owners, the Arve tool that JVC owners have been using to generate custom HDR curves for their projectors does work with the 4500. I was able to generate a few curves last night and they loaded just fine. This enabled me to use the projector in mid laser with a great looking image until I figure out how to quiet down the projector in high laser. So if you're itching to get the best HDR performance possible, I'd look into using the tool! There is TONS of information on how to use it over at AVS in the other JVC threads.
Now that you've had your own RS4500 for a while, any new thoughts / measurements ?
I think he sold his and bought a Sony.
Where did you hear this from?
Sorry, I was kidding. I should have added a smiley face.
I was going to let you know that who ever said it was either stirring up stuff or joking. Was just trying to find out where it came from. Kris called me yesterday telling me that he was told that someone had posted that he had sold his 4500 and bought a 5000. I came across your post, so inquired. :)
Oh, so someone else posted something similar? Wild coincidence (wasn't me!). My 'joke' was just a way of teasing him because he hasn't been very active lately. Maybe he's too busy watching movies - or busy reviewing another product.
I did follow his suggestion on using the ARVE tool to create a custom gamma curve for HDR that satisfies in mid laser mode and while I'm sure his curves would be better than mine, I'm pretty darn happy.
For anyone that has or is getting Ray Masciola's UHD /HDR - 10 test patterns, I find the last Resolution Pattern under Misc. Patterns - #09, Black Pixels Single - to work really well for focusing. Just FYI.
Thanks, I'll check that one out.
With my 61 year old eyes, it can be tough getting the focus that last little bit tack sharp. This test pattern really helps dial it in. There are other useful ones too. I'll buy these on UHD Blu-ray too, when it comes out later this month.
This is probably a silly question, but what's YOUR technique for focusing? I simply try to get the spaces between pixels to show up (which obviously are very small so when you see the spaces it means the pixels aren't blurred).
If this is not the optimum way to do it, I'd love to hear what is.
It has been a while that I had the time to both play with my Z1 and reading and writing here, but today I had some time to do some more experimenting.
I still had an Isco 2 anamorphic lens but did not yet tested it with the Z1, to be honest t thought it would down grade a bit the excellent sharpness of the Z1 lens.
But oh boy, im I gad I spend some time putting it up in front of the beast, I was on max zoom because of the screen versus projector distance so now I just got a few cm more wich is great but not the reason why am so exited.
The image with the Isco just looks awesome, I have more light, picture looks sharper because I am not at max zoom of the Z1 lens. Only shame is the tiny bit distortion on top an bottom because I am now at the edge of the Isco lens, you can see it on test patterns but the way the image looks when watching movies makes you instantly forget about that.
Wist the firmware update of the laser dimming, the update on the Panasonic to adjust the clipping of the HDR, and now the iso, I am very pleased with the results.
Is anyone else using an Anamorphic lens in combination with the Z1, and if so do you also find it a good combo even if it downgrades the suburb lens quality of the Z1 a tiny bit?
I must say that in overall quality to my eye I had a better looking picture.
That was my technique. With the test pattern though, you have the entire screen covered in a grid of " dots " and it's really easy to see them tighten up in focus ! Far easier than looking at the pixels alone. At least to my eyes.
It has been a while that I had the time to both play with my Z1 and reading and writing here, but today i had some time to do some more experimenting.
I still had an Isco 2 anamorphic lens but did not yet tested it with the Z1, to be honest i thought it would down grade a bit the excellent sharpness of the Z1 lens.
But oh boy, im i glad i spend some time putting it up in front of the beast, i was on max zoom because of the screen versus projector distance so now i just got a few cm more wich is great but not the reason why am so exited.
The image with the Isco just looks awesome, i have more light, picture looks sharper because i am not at max zoom of the Z1 lens. Only shame is the tiny bit distortion on top an bottom because i am now at the edge of the Isco lens, you can see it on test patterns but the way the image looks when watching movies makes you instantly forget about that.
With the firmware update of the laser dimming, the update on the Panasonic to adjust the clipping of the HDR, and now the iso, i am very pleased with the results.
Is anyone else using an Anamorphic lens in combination with the Z1, and if so do you also find it a good combo even if it downgrades the suburb lens quality of the Z1 a tiny bit?
i must say that in overall quality to my eye i have a better looking picture.
I have an ISCO II installed and use it - not all the time - I still zoom sometimes, but as long I as back off the aperture a couple notches when I use the lens, it looks great. I'm not sure I've truly a/b tested with lens vs zooming for 4k material yet (I probably should). Anyways, I agree that the lens looks great and it sure is much faster than zooming. Also, the second mode of the Anamorphic feature derives 16x9 with the anamorphic lens in place - so if you quickly need to see a 16x9 (e.g. for menus etc) it's even faster than my Cineslide!
This is probably a silly question, but what's YOUR technique for focusing? I simply try to get the spaces between pixels to show up (which obviously are very small so when you see the spaces it means the pixels aren't blurred).
If this is not the optimum way to do it, I'd love to hear what is.
By the way, I did a little experiment last night to see if my RS4500 kept perfect focus shifting from my 2.35:1 lens memory, back to my 16:9 lens memory, and then back to the 2.35:1 lens memory. My conclusion is you should probably re-focus if you want it tack sharp. I just keep Ray Masciola's UHD /HDR - 10 test patterns on a thumb drive plugged into the front USB port on my Panasonic UB900. Pretty fast to pull up that focusing pattern ( Resolution Pattern under Misc. Patterns - #09, Black Pixels Single ) and fine tune it to perfection !
Sounds similar to previous JVCs. When I owned the LS10000, the defocus was really bad when shifting to another memory. So bad that I could see it on content from my seated position!
It does seem quite random - I can go multiple films with it fine, and then it drifts. I check every film out of habit now. Wish I didn't have to, but hey ho.
You guys are making me appreciate my A-lens even more. :)
I've been doing some comparisons between using my ISCO and zooming. It's so close that it's hard to declare a winner.
I watched Oblivion in 4k on Saturday. Wow, it looked great. I'm now back to using HIGH laser for HDR (plus a boost to dynamic range of +3 on the Panasonic). It just looks so 'right' that it trumps the fan noise.
I can't remember what type / size screen you have. Remind me please.
I can see wanting to use high laser then. I'm probably at the cutoff for mid laser at 118" wide ST130. I've thought about adding some sound proofing to my projector closet to eliminate the sound of high laser, but I got lazy !
You guys are making me appreciate my A-lens even more. :)
I couldn't live with the knowledge that I was deliberately introducing artefacts into my image. I have an ISCO III with which I experimented in the past with a permanent A-lens, but I could always see aliasing when squeezing the image. Not too mention a loss of ANSI-CR and the odd bit of pin cushion and chromatic aberration...
Still hoping for a perfect solution one day! :D
I've been doing some comparisons between using my ISCO and zooming. It's so close that it's hard to declare a winner.
I watched Oblivion in 4k on Saturday. Wow, it looked great. I'm now back to using HIGH laser for HDR (plus a boost to dynamic range of +3 on the Panasonic). It just looks so 'right' that it trumps the fan noise.
If that is without A-lens, then perhaps you could go with medium and the lens and not give up as much brightness.
I couldn't live with the knowledge that I was deliberately introducing artefacts into my image. I have an ISCO III with which I experimented in the past with a permanent A-lens, but I could always see aliasing when squeezing the image. Not too mention a loss of ANSI-CR and the odd bit of pin cushion and chromatic aberration...
Still hoping for a perfect solution one day! :D
That was with lens. There's not much difference in light between zooming and using the lens. Both results in a slight loss of light.
I couldn't live with the knowledge that I was deliberately introducing artefacts into my image. I have an ISCO III with which I experimented in the past with a permanent A-lens, but I could always see aliasing when squeezing the image. Not too mention a loss of ANSI-CR and the odd bit of pin cushion and chromatic aberration...
Still hoping for a perfect solution one day! :D
I gain some brightness when I use my lens for scope. I do have a slide, so not using lens all the time.
How do you lose ANSI CR with a lens?
Another "layer" in front of lens - that big chunk o' glass reflecting/scattering light perhaps? The difference to me was very easy to see. Although maybe I set my ISCO up poorly? eek!
To be clear, I have a slide too (Cineslide) and don't have the lens in play with 16x9 (unless, like you, I'm Anamorphic B mode to quickly access a menu). I would have thought having the lens in play with scope material would have been brighter than zooming out, but it doesn't feel like it is. Anyway, there are pros on cons. Like you mentioned, it is SO much faster to slide in the lens and since you don't change lens memories there is no need to re-focus every so often. There may even be a plus to on/off contrast.
That said, I think I prefer the image zoomed out. Maybe because the ANSI is better? (this is just a guess based off a recent post) but it's very close and I alternate between the two methods.
I have a feeling that I will end going with the zoom method only so it will be easier to build a hush box (which will be complicated due to the exhaust being out the front). High laser, while overkill on SDR, just looks too good on HDR.
The audio visual delay on the Z1 is longer than it was on my Sony 1000, so I ended up remeasuring. I use different delays depending on the source (eg DVD vs Blu vs UHD vs Amazon Fire vs Shield and so on) and also the audio codec as some come through with different delays.
It's actually a real pain that manufacturers don't agree on some way to resolve this, eg all devices should be 0 latency on audio AND visual feeds, but they aren't.
I use a Syncheck3 to measure my lipsync, but that's no longer available. The Sync-One2 is the next best thing:
http://www.sync-one2.co.uk/
New firmware!
http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-z1_rs4500/
Improvement of display problem at pixel adjustment
Improvement of image quality at 12bit input
So if anyone is having lip sync issues with their RS4500 with HDTV ( I am ), it seems that turning on the low lag " game mode " more or less corrects it. Worth a try, since it doesn't appear to be correctable using audio delay in my receiver. What I need is a " video delay " adjustment.
It's been a while since I've been on the forum so I just thought I'd share my most recent thoughts on the RS4500:
I think it's just incredible that one can have the experience I've been enjoying in their own home. I discovered home theater in 1993 and when my wife and I married in 1994 we told all our guests that we were saving up for a large rear projection TV. Most of our guests jumped on this idea and we started our home theater with the TV and a laser disc player.
A couple years later we were fortunate enough to move out of our apartment into a house and had a dedicated room in the basement for our theater. In 1997 we got our first projector - a Runco 980 CRT with an 96" wide screen (slightly larger than what it probably should have been for optimal viewing quality but we loved it). Along with some decent speakers and electronics it was our first big 'investment' in home theater.
That Runco came with us when we moved 7 years later and became my first 'HD' projector when HDDVD and Bluray came on the scene in 2005.
About a year or so later I discovered CIH and went digital with JVCs splash entry into home theater - the RS1. That with a high gain 11 foot wide 2.35:1 screen changed my home theater life forever!
I became obsessed with the hobby and it wasn't long before I invested heavily into a Sim2 C3X1080 (3 chip DLP). I also bought an ISCO3 and a Cineslide. I had this setup for a blissful 10 years before replacing the Sim2 with the RS4500.
While there is no doubt a different 'look' to the RS4500 compared to the Sim2 (which I still think looks very very good with its quality of color and ANSI contrast) the RS4500 has taken my experience to a level that I never thought would be possible. Sometimes I just giggle at how good the picture is and every day I think that I am a VERY lucky man.
For the past week I've been ripping the remaining discs in my Bluray collection. I have close to 40 terrabytes on my movie server and not counting music videos or TV shows, I am close to 1600 titles.
Life is good, very very good.
Nice shots! Must be a very good camera. What movie is that, Craig?
slightly OT but i went to the drivein the other night...and the picture was pretty darn good especially considering the throw distance was a couple hundred feet and the screen was at least 150' wide 2.35
curious to the PJ
btw saw emoji's (terrible)
Actually have an outdoor theater in my home town of McHenry, IL. A few years ago the owner had started a Kickstarter campaign to raise money for a new digital projector but, didn't get near the 130k that he needed. He actually ended up winning one through Honda!
Good read. 8)
http://www.nwherald.com/2013/09/14/mchenry-outdoor-theater-wins-digital-projector/a6wd9x/ (http://www.nwherald.com/2013/09/14/mchenry-outdoor-theater-wins-digital-projector/a6wd9x/)
You are making good use of that new camera. :)
I went and saw a demo of the new Sony $25K laser projector last night. It was stunning in a lot of ways. Dynamic range seemed fantastic so I cannot wait to see the RS4500.
However I also saw significant banding on videos like Planet Earth II, particular in the sky. Does the RS4500 do this? Not sure if it is encoded in the Blu-Ray or not.
I haven't seen banding except in what I would consider inferior source material ( HDTV from AT & T / U verse ).
Not 100% sure on this but I could swear that Sony told me their panel drivers are limited to 10 bit. The JVC 5 and 6 series and the 4500 are 12 bit end to end, so banding is rare and typically always an encode issue with the software you're viewing (Lionsgate BD titles are notorious for this).
Nice shots, Craig - what movie is that, btw?
But you're doing the RS4500 to suggest that 'even 8 year old titles' look good. You can go much further back than that and have your jaw hit the floor. Try the restored version of Lawrence of Arabia (if not the Blu-ray, the UHD version on Amazon), restored version of Spartacus... or Vertigo. These are all crazy detailed and look stunning on this projector!
I was somewhat disappointed with the PQ of this one. :o Didn't seem as sharp and as detailed like other new movies but, I think that has to do with the medium, 35mm film right? ???
Yep, I saw you posted that in the other thread. I like the use of color, it just wasn't as sharp and fine object detail was lacking but, still a good picture. It probably looks better on your 4500 than my 500. :)
I was somewhat disappointed with the PQ of this one. :o Didn't seem as sharp and as detailed like other new movies but, I think that has to do with the medium, 35mm film right? ???
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but why don't the laser projectors use a dynamic iris? I understand that dynamic laser is nice, but seems like that could be combined with DI for increased contrast ratio in some situations.
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but why don't the laser projectors use a dynamic iris? I understand that dynamic laser is nice, but seems like that could be combined with DI for increased contrast ratio in some situations.
Actually a DI would not be that big of a deal, but what would be nice is to have a manual iris, so you had the option of running with more light output from the laser, but toned down with a manual iris (like the RS640's have) that dramatically increased native contrast.
Actually a DI would not be that big of a deal, but what would be nice is to have a manual iris, so you had the option of running with more light output from the laser, but toned down with a manual iris (like the RS640's have) that dramatically increased native contrast.
Actually a DI would not be that big of a deal, but what would be nice is to have a manual iris, so you had the option of running with more light output from the laser, but toned down with a manual iris (like the RS640's have) that dramatically increased native contrast.
Unlike the Sony laser projectors, the 4500 does have a manual iris. That is why I run my 4500 with laser power on medium power with iris closed down. That way I get 23,000:1 native on my 4500. Then add the dynamic dimming and I get good black levels and contrast.
I am very soon to join the Z1/RS4500 owners club.. :) Cancelled my JVC 20LTD...hopefully my the Z1 gets shipped out next week..
I also have to get the Chief mount plate and modify ( beef up ) my existing wall mount... Hope its all worth it...
Chief does not make a mounting plate that fits the regular line of RPA or RPMA mounts. The custom plate that Chief makes for the RS4500, fits a large heavy duty mount. I have put this information in this thread earlier, but here it is again.Chief VCM105J Adjustabilty of this mount is excellent.
Would be fine with using this mount with all of my projectors,
if plates were available.(https://www.milestone.com/-/media/images/chief/product/projectors/vcm_large.ashx)
That mount looks beastly!
This is the one available to me here in Aus..
Life is good.. :)
Well after today, as well as myself, my friend stated that "to hell with numbers/specifications" Because the Z1 provided the BEST picture he has ever experienced by a mile"!!
There's got to be a way to explain that empirically, and I'd love to see someone do a deep dive to do so. I really wish (or maybe I don't) I could see an RS4500 in person, well setup. I know the difference in contrast between my RS4910 and my RS600 was apparent, and by all the measurements I've seen, that's a smaller difference than the 4500 vs the 600.
It would be great to see the mulit-APL contrast results like Mark P and Projection Dream have done, and compare the 600 to the 4500.
But here's hoping that secret sauce makes it into it's little brothers when their finally born :D
Would love to see you darken your walls and ceiling.
I'm testing a new firmware - stay tuned for my report ( tomorrow ).
Hmm. No mention of dynamic laser. I have the firmware that was pulled and I really like it - I'm concerned that the latest version won't have those improvements and that the latest will be a step backwards in picture quality as a result.
Do you see any difference in sync times?
Hello folks. Just saying hello over is this forum as I hope to participate here more often. That other place is starting to drive me insane. Glad to have found you guys over here.
On topic I installed a Ruipro fiber cable yesterday and it's working flawlessly. I happily put the Tributaries fiber cable back in it's box to be returned. Turns out Tributaaries stopped selling it b/c of the usb voltage issues. Pretty annoyed that they released a cable that they obviously hadn't thoroughly tested yet.
I also installed new FW and I haven't noticed any change yet.
I have an entire box of " 18Gbps " HDMI cables that don't work. If anybody wants them " just pay shipping and handling ".
What period of time after start up are people setting their focus on the Z1?
On the E-Shift series i used to wait for 20min or so before setting focus as it would change over this period from start up.
I check it weekly and wait at least 15 minutes just to be safe.
You really find that the single pixel makes that much difference when focusing?
I'm not sure if I'm looking at the right pattern, but when I load that one up I see a white screen (i.e. from far). When I go close and examine it, the pixels are magenta (obviously imperfect convergence).
Is the one?
Well seeing Craig's numbers have me struggling even more now!
I need ChadB back east stat!
Thank you.
I'm not sure those numbers I posted are useful, without seeing the entire calibration. But you guys asked ! I'm not using the stock HDR pre-set - Jeff made quite a few adjustments to it when he calibrated my projector.
Do you have the Panasonic dynamic slider at zero or above?
So there is a long shot that I might get this projector in the next couple of weeks. Does it seem silly for my environment?
110" 16x9 ST130
14.5 Throw
Projector mounted in a separate room, basically no sound from projector can be heard. Can use high laser if I want.
If my calculations are correct i could be looking at 90 fl for HDR movies, surely that would be too bright?
2500 calibrated lumens, x 1.3 / 35.89 screen
Well seeing Craig's numbers have me struggling even more now!
I need ChadB back east stat!
Thank you.
So there is a long shot that I might get this projector in the next couple of weeks. Does it seem silly for my environment?
110" 16x9 ST130
14.5 Throw
Projector mounted in a separate room, basically no sound from projector can be heard. Can use high laser if I want.
If my calculations are correct i could be looking at 90 fl for HDR movies, surely that would be too bright?
2500 calibrated lumens, x 1.3 / 35.89 screen
Craig has the Panasonic dynamic slider set to +4. If you don't have this set on your Pansonic, the +3 Picture Tone works well. Or, you can leave the Picture Tone at 0 and use the Panasonic. Either one brightens up the picture. Since you have more than 1 HDR source, you're probably better off with the Picture Tone.
Just my opinion. I'm no expert. :)
Has anyone tried to watch "Godless" on Netflix on their RS4500? I found it unwatchable b/c of all of the low APL scenes. Had to resort to my LG65B7P OLED ;) Which it looks fantastic on!
Has anyone tried to watch "Godless" on Netflix on their RS4500? I found it unwatchable b/c of all of the low APL scenes. Had to resort to my LG65B7P OLED ;) Which it looks fantastic on!
Has anyone tried to watch "Godless" on Netflix on their RS4500? I found it unwatchable b/c of all of the low APL scenes. Had to resort to my LG65B7P OLED ;) Which it looks fantastic on!
Nope, I don't watch Netflix. I will say that " Atomic Blonde " on 4K BR and " Wind River " on Blu-ray looked amazing over the last couple of days. Never a scene where I wished it had better contrast.
I'm looking at screen shots and they don't look dark - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5516154/mediaviewer/rm572400384
I have atomic blond also it was wonderful. Godless is just a low APL beast. There are so many scenes indoors that for me I couldn’t watch it. It is an HDR feed. Go try it out if you want to torture yourself. The outdoor scenes look wonderful but most of the series is shot in Uber low APL that really requires lots of contrast.
I’m not knocking the projector either because I love it but I gurantee any projector will struggle with much of Godless. It’s also a phenomenal series!
Nope, I don't watch Netflix. I will say that " Atomic Blonde " on 4K BR and " Wind River " on Blu-ray looked amazing over the last couple of days. Never a scene where I wished it had better contrast.
I'm looking at screen shots and they don't look dark - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5516154/mediaviewer/rm572400384
Craig, you have the Panny, so you have Netflix HDR. You're missing out if you don't take advantage of it. Try it for a month. Quality is pretty damn good.
Totally agree on Atomic Blonde 4k and Wind River.
I just checked out Godless. I want to watch this show so bad but I started late and after watching the first 10 minutes I figured I'd skip ahead to catch more of the darker indoor scenes.
This reminds me a LOT of Unforgiven. Perhaps also Ghost in the Shell. I did not find it unwatchable though. Many scenes were stunning. Here's what I did to make it palatable:
Go to the HDR Gamma
- make sure dark Tone is at 7
- Set picture tone at 3 or 4
- Have Panasonic dynamic range slider at +4
Medium laser, close aperture to -5 or so to increase contrast
I'm sure the LG Oled looks better (I will look at that soon) but the above looked pretty decent on my RS4500.
Yes, pleasantly surprised at how decent 4K is looking on Netflix.
Unwatchable was probably a little too harsh, but you cannot deny some of the dark scenes indoors are just really really hard to watch? Once you view them on your OLED you will notice the difference in those scenes when you have infinite contrast available. My setting are nearly identical to what you have above and I also use my Panny to stream Netflix. I guess it depends on what your tastes are. The scenes that are not low APL in Godless do look fantastic!
I watched a bit on my OLED after my post. My OLED was never calibrated so keep that in mind (it's in my kitchen and it's used only for news or sports events). Yes, it has great contrast and perhaps it's my settings but I found the contrast too much. If I got close to make it immersive the dark scenes were too noisy (again, could be lack of calibration) and the highlights were fatiguing and unnatural. I'll take my large screen and the RS4500 any day of the week.
To each his own I guess, but as great as the picture on the RS4500 is it doesn't compare to an OLED when it comes to contrast, so you probably enjoy the immersive aspect of the large screen more than anything which I love about my HT as well, but there are some things that projectors can't reproduce that flat panel displays can and that is irrefutable if we are being honest with one another.
Out of curiosity I'd like to hear others opinions of the scenes I am referring to from Godless that have viewed it on their RS4500. Maybe I am overly sensitive to the really low APL scenes?
Craig, you have the Panny, so you have Netflix HDR. You're missing out if you don't take advantage of it. Try it for a month. Quality is pretty damn good.
Totally agree on Atomic Blonde 4k and Wind River.
Maybe you need to add a Radiance Pro with their new HDR tone mapping feature. Kris Deering says itmakes his RS4500 look pretty close to his OLED.
The thing is I have only enough time to watch a movie 3 - 4 nights a week max. - and I have at any one time at least 3 movies I've never seen yet. I have 69 4K Blu-rays and 481 Blu-rays, and new ones like Dunkirk and Kingsman 2 filtering in all the time. I have zero time to watch almost any television series - network or Netflix. I'm almost 100% a movie guy. And I never go to a commercial theater - not even for Star Wars. Always watch them in my theater. A Netflix subscription would be pretty much wasted on me.
I can appreciate that completely! What I am seeing may also have to do with compression algorithms that drown out a lot of detail in low light because I have never encountered anything close to what I saw in Godless with a UHD or std bluray to date.
I was contemplating that but I have talked to some people I hold in high regard and they told me that you can calibrate the RS4500 so well that buying a Radiance Pro for tone mapping only would be spending money "unwisely".
Interesting. I have one being delivered today. Bought it because on Kris Deering's recommendation.
Have you seen Unforgiven? Ghost in the Shell?
Interesting. I have one being delivered today. Bought it because on Kris Deering's recommendation.
I'll tell you whom I talked to about in PM if you want to know.
Have you seen Unforgiven? Ghost in the Shell?
Kris' comments are precisely why I inquired about it as well. I am sure there is some benefit from it, but maybe to what extent is it worth it to the individual to spend the money on a radiance pro? Now if you use it to scale and some of it's other benefits that it offers there is certainly more value to it than just tone mapping which is all I was inquiring about.
Somebody clever like HD Fury needs to make a box just for HDR tone mapping for projectors, for less $ !!
I see Kris Deering is selling his Z1/RS4500 ..... The SONY must be impressive if that is what is replacing his Z1/RS4500 ..
Not really -
" Only a coincidence based on timing. I am doing renovations at home that include some work on the theater. IF my JVC sells, I will be getting a 5000ES as I would be putting in a larger screen and possibly a weave/perf, so would need the increase in light. If my projector doesn't sell I plan on trucking along happily, I'm still over the moon on the 4500 in my current setup. "
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/2937544-sony-vw885es-vw760es-depth-review-comparisons-45.html#post55313684
Wow! It sold fast, great price. :)
You should check our B stock price then ! :)
I just got an email from Discover telling me credit limit was raised to $20k. Don't tempt me Craig hahaha
Kris sold his JVC? I don't see any ad for it - what was the price?
22k and he removed it b/c he decided to keep the RS4500.
How do you know, btw? (wondering if there's a thread I haven't seen).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post
Not getting the 5000 now since you've withdrawn the JVC from sale?
Correct. I've decided to stick with the RS4500.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/2937544-sony-vw885es-vw760es-depth-review-comparisons-46.html#post55317528
Thanks, if I had just read a couple more pages to catch up on that thread I wouldn't have had to ask. Sorry and thanks.
Is it possible to backup your settings onto a thumb drive to upload onto another unit?
I'm more impressed now with Blu-rays. Watched " Drive " again with a friend that wanted to see it, and the clarity and detail looked outstanding. The night scene at the beach even looked better, with amazing shadow detail. Chad B. put some secret sauce in this thing.
That's a cool movie. I love the 80's vibe and the cars. Sounds like the 4500 does an awesome job making the Blu-rays closer to UHD.
Not really. Too many variables, especially with the custom gamma curves being made specifically for your screen size and light out put.
Lol! No my projector is being replaced so I’m curious to know if I can backup my settings on my current rs4500 onto the replacement unit?
Oh that's right - I forgot. Did you get the calibration info on a thumb drive ? If so I think you can to some extent.
Yes haven’t had it calibrated just wondering if I can pop all of my picture settings onto the new one from a thumb drive.
Some, but it's more like a list of settings. You have to enter them into the menus yourself.
Ok so you can basically upload a copy of your settings to manually enter?
I still have several HDR movies to watch on my 4500.
Are you kidding me ? I have a bunch to watch, and now with the better looking HDR, I want to re - watch everything !
I still have Assassins Creed, Ghost in the Shell, Prometheus, Battleship & Lucy in UHD I have yet to see.
I've watched 26 so far, some (like Prometheus) multiple times.
I have another 43 that I've 'checked-out' or sampled (but not fully watched).
And I have 148 unopened. :)
Since getting the Z1 i am re visiting a lot of my 1080P Blurays....
The difference between my previous X9500 and the Z1 with 1080P Blurays is quite pronounced!!
The image is so much more "clean" and "Detailed" ... the artefacts that i thought were in the 1080P source were in fact the E-shift noise!
To the point actually that some of the pristine 1080P films get horribly close to the 4K UHD presentations. I am feeding the Z1 1080P upscaled to 4K via MadVR from my HTPC..
So I now have a Lumagen Pro. OMG, what a difference it makes. All the titles I had some issues or complaints about, but that were well respected/reviewed now look terrific. The shadow detail I'm seeing is just incredible - like a veil has just been lifted.
And no more audio delay with my cable feed...!
HUGE thank you to Kris Deering; he helped me improve the image before with the Arve Tool and when he claimed that the Lumagen took it to another level, I took the plunge and he wasn't kidding.
So do you still use the custom gamma curves with the Lumagen Pro ?
So I now have a Lumagen Pro. OMG, what a difference it makes. All the titles I had some issues or complaints about, but that were well respected/reviewed now look terrific. The shadow detail I'm seeing is just incredible - like a veil has just been lifted.
And no more audio delay with my cable feed...!
HUGE thank you to Kris Deering; he helped me improve the image before with the Arve Tool and when he claimed that the Lumagen took it to another level, I took the plunge and he wasn't kidding.
Nope. No dynamic range on the Panny either.
I am seriously considering getting one now.
Same here.. :D Which exact model are we talking about?
I am feeding the Z1 1080P upscaled to 4K via MadVR from my HTPC..
I have a couple questions for you if you don't mind answering.
1) Do you know if you're feeding the projector RGB signal vs something like 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 from your PC?
2) Does madVR offer anything like Darby processing for 1080p sources?
I'm not woofer, but I can answer your questions.
1.) You can choose between RGB and YUV output modes.
2.) Yes, MadVR has several different sharpening options available and most of them are of the highest quality available. Remember though, you'll need a graphics card fast enough for the video processing. NGU Sharp via MadVR is by far the best scaling algorithm out there by a decent margin. It knocks the pants off anything the Lumagen can do. But it is of course limited to what a PC can playback. So you can't use it with cable TV. Just DVD, blu-ray, 3D blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray ripped to your PC. Though I suspect you'd only want the highest quality scaling and rendering for the highest quality source material anyways so I don't think it's of any consequence it won't work with cable TV. As they say, garbage in, garbage out. No amount of quality video processing can fix a bad looking source.
A Question ....... Has ANYONE had an issue with the Manual Iris "Sticking" "Not Responding" in relation to the on screen numerical setting?
I was setting up some different profiles for 2:40 and 16:9 viewing. I had the iris set on a -13 value for 16:9. I changed to my 2:40 profile which uses the Iris at -7.
Something didnt look right so i checked with my light meter and sure enough i was way down on brightness. I moved the Iris control all the way to 0 and the reading didnt change!! I then moved the control back to -15 then all the way back to 0 ...Bingo!
Brightness then jumped way up.....moved the control back to my -7 and the light output was correct.
This has happened a few times now, the iris seems to "stick" " not respond until i move the setting from -15 to 0 and then back to the value i require.
Any ideas?
Thanks..
-13 ? That must dim or you have a small screen. I've never closed the manual iris down that far, so no - haven't had that problem.
I feel compelled to give an update on my Lumagen Pro.
When I raved about seeing so much more low APL detail I unfortunately failed to notice that I had the Panasonic dynamic range slider engaged (left from when I bypassed the Lumagen to compare). Obviously this wasn't correct as it would have desaturated colors and blown out some highlights (something I started to notice that led me to check the slider).
It's still better with the Lumagen but now I feel I have to go back and do some more watching & comparing.
Thought I better get this out there before anyone ordered one based on my (now flawed) rave. Sorry.
Regarding custom curves w/Arve tool vs Panasonic UB900 HDR slider for UHD BD on JVCs in general...
Can one achieve the same result with the Arve tool? Does the UB900 HDR slider offer much value if you're doing curves? I've got an Oppo 203 which I was going to keep and thinking of selling off the UB900 since Chad will be doing custom curves for my RS440, just wanted to get people's thoughts.
Well for one thing, the Panasonic is supposedly better than the Oppo so you could sell the Oppo and retain the feature.
When Kris was experimenting with Arve curves he eventually found that the best performance required a combination of the Panny slider at +4 and one of his curves. That said, those who have had ChadB to create custom curves say that with his work the Panasonic slider is no longer needed. I don't know of anyone who has compared both.
There is no comparison - the custom gamma curves as installed by Chad are far superior to just using the slider, which I now have set at zero. Makes HDR look like the projector has 10X as much contrast. 4K is brighter without lifting black levels, and shadow detail is also improved. I used GOTG2 as a test, and the difference was easy to see. I'm going to throw Wonder Woman on this week, as that HDR was ok before, but I'm guessing it looks brighter and far more dynamic now. The slider was ok, but there was only so much it could do. I'll probably thow Prometheus and Covenant on too for a few other torture test scenes.
So Craig, you got your projector calibrated again? I gather Chad B. can get the best gamma curves for HDR that other calibrators can't just yet. :)
There is no comparison - the custom gamma curves as installed by Chad are far superior to just using the slider, which I now have set at zero. Makes HDR look like the projector has 10X as much contrast. 4K is brighter without lifting black levels, and shadow detail is also improved. I used GOTG2 as a test, and the difference was easy to see. I'm going to throw Wonder Woman on this week, as that HDR was ok before, but I'm guessing it looks brighter and far more dynamic now. The slider was ok, but there was only so much it could do. I'll probably thow Prometheus and Covenant on too for a few other torture test scenes.
Can you share one of the curves he installed? I would love to know the parameters, there is only a finite amount of paramaters one can use in the Arve tool once you know what you are doing as to not push things too far, I wager that his curves are extremely close to the ones I am using.
I found Manni's curves too dark despite him accusing me of 'poorly designing' mine because, and this is funny, I left brightness on the table. Clearly he didn't actually look at them since mine are brighter than his :)
Do you want me to email his calibration notes ? I can.
Thanks, just flicked you a message.
Wow - with the custom gamma curves and mode 2 dimming on, 4K can now do complete fade to black scenes that totally black out the screen. Watched " Patriot Day " on 4K Blu-ray tonight with friends. Looked better than ever, and had quite a few blackout scenes. You do pay for it with somewhat overly aggressive dimming of titles at the end of the movie, but I'll live with the trade off. Mode 1 is less aggressive, but no absolute fade to black ( still a little light on the screen ).
Can you share one of the curves he installed? I would love to know the parameters, there is only a finite amount of paramaters one can use in the Arve tool once you know what you are doing as to not push things too far, I wager that his curves are extremely close to the ones I am using.
I found Manni's curves too dark despite him accusing me of 'poorly designing' mine because, and this is funny, I left brightness on the table. Clearly he didn't actually look at them since mine are brighter than his :)
I sent an email to Chad asking for his values but I didn't get any response. Not sure if a calibrator would want to share that kind of stuff. I really liked the Arve tool but when comparing the results directly against the newest version of the Lumagen Intensity Mapping and my OLED (C7), I could never get the low end detail that would show up with the OLED and the C7. And I feel that is just as important for HDR as the highlights on the upper end. Ultimately HDR is hard because it is so subjective without standards, but using my OLED and Dolby Vision HDR and their tone mapping as a reference, I feel like I've gotten as close as one would need to emulate that level of tone mapping (the C7 has constantly been awarded the best HDR display on the market).
This is why I think there is something different with your projector than mine. With Auto 2 it could ALWAYS do this with my projector.
Even with 4K Blu-rays ? Must be calibration and set up differences. Mine has always been able to to FTB with 1080p material though. Just not completely shut off with 4K HDR. Until now.
This is why I think there is something different with your projector than mine. With Auto 2 it could ALWAYS do this with my projector.
You may have been incorrectly setting black levels on the UHD content to 0 nits, whereas 50% of titles are 0.005 nits for black, so the JVC was seeing very slight black floor raise, and thus not fading correctly.
I could be wrong but that would be one for sure reason why it wouldn't do it.
So far its definitely been found pretty safe to clip to 0.005 and I am sure Chad would be doing this too.
Well it's working now ! Man, Dunkirk was like looking at them through a window tonight ! Used the 122" diagonal 1.78;1 Cima Neve, and I'm glad I did. Seems like 60 - 70% of the movie is 16:9. Great movie !
Well it's working now ! Man, Dunkirk was like looking at them through a window tonight ! Used the 122" diagonal 1.78;1 Cima Neve, and I'm glad I did. Seems like 60 - 70% of the movie is 16:9. Great movie !
Well it's working now ! Man, Dunkirk was like looking at them through a window tonight ! Used the 122" diagonal 1.78;1 Cima Neve, and I'm glad I did. Seems like 60 - 70% of the movie is 16:9. Great movie !
You may have been incorrectly setting black levels on the UHD content to 0 nits, whereas 50% of titles are 0.005 nits for black, so the JVC was seeing very slight black floor raise, and thus not fading correctly.
I could be wrong but that would be one for sure reason why it wouldn't do it.
So far its definitely been found pretty safe to clip to 0.005 and I am sure Chad would be doing this too.
Would be excellent to see some of your screen shots with this title. 8)
I have to do what you're doing - have a second screen so that I can have a bigger 1.78:1 image and that Cima Neve looks to be the one to get. I might not even watch Dunkirk until I get this (I did see it in theaters). Do you drop your second screen down immediately in front of your scope screen or is it closer to the seating position. Can you share a photo of your setup?
Kris, are you now using the 2020 profile in the 4500 in concert with the Lumagen?
Would be excellent to see some of your screen shots with this title. 8)
How good did your previous projector converge? Mine doesn't converge that well. For example if I see that red is slightly out (say horizontally to the right) and try to move it to the left, before it will disappear from the right it will appear on the left - as if the red pixels are wider than the green. Same for blue.
I wish there were test patterns that only had red, blue or green grids so I could check how each primary focuses.
Is the projector in the same location as the last one?
I wonder what JVC's tolerances are for this.
yep same exact spot, we just removed the chief mount plate from the old one and popped it right onto the new and hung it right up there. It had 4H hours on it which seemed like a lot but I don't know what their QC time is so that might not mean anything.
Where is the lens in relationship to the screen?
So as I had mentioned I had a strange image artifact that was happening w/ my RS4500. After troubleshooting JVC decided to replace my unit since it was brand new and we had ruled out cabling and other components as the cause and it was brand new.
I had my new unit installed two days ago and haven't had much time on it. However I was setting up my screen modes 16:9, 2.35:1, etc and I noticed that when the lens adjust pattern was up that there was little bit of red bleeding out to the left. So I went into the panel alignment and adjusted right one click (from the left side of my screen) and things lined up, but then I walked down the screen to check the rest of the pattern and the red was bleeding out to the right on the right side of the screen.
I didn't take pictures b/c I was pressed for time and my projector was probably only on for 10 minutes so it wasn't adequately warmed up either but I was wondering if any of you other owners had to to any panel alignments and if you think it's best I put more hours on the unit before I check again? Before I shutdown I put everything back to 0 in panel alignment so that next time I can let the projector warm-up for 30 minutes before checking. I didn't have this on my prior unit so I am curios if anyone else had to do any panel alignment OTB.
I also couldn't dial in the focus well but that was probably due to the insufficient warm-up or at least I hope that's why. If i have another bad unit I am going to lose my mind so was looking for some feedback from others.
I needed a little convergence correction. Using Kris's suggestion ( if you can't see convergence errors from your seat, don't worry about it ), I spent a lot of time turning it on and off with resolution patterns and the video test footage on the R.Masciola's UHD test pattern disc. Bottom line for me was I can't see any resolution hit from using convergence correction on my RS4500, but with correction off I can see the effects of mis-convergence on the actual video test footage from my seat. Plus, both Jeff of Accucal and Chad B. have said it looks good with the convergence correction on. I'm back to watching movies and not test patterns ! 8)
I didn't even know there was conversion correction b/c I didn't see any issues with my old projector in that regard. If after a full warm-up I see it again then I will look for it and apply it. Thanks!
What did you mean when you said "I shifted one click to the left" if you didn't know about convergence correction?
I used the panel alignment function and I now realize that is what Craig is referring to. I thought he was talking about some sort of auto conversion correction.
Something a little off topic....
The Supplied lens cap.....who uses it ? has anybody taken notice of just how much clearance from the front lens element when the cap is installed!! The cap has an Aluminium disc on the internal face ...it actually makes contact with the Lens element when installed!!! NOT HAPPY.. >:(
Maybe glue a piece of felt or something soft over the aluminum. I don't really ever use it, but in my case it also fits the port hole my RS4500 shines through ( 1/2" MDF board ), so the aluminum wouldn't be near my lens now, I don't think.
hey Craig...now that i know the glory of a flagship PJ in the rs600. how does the 4500 compare? close...blows it away?
when i had the 400 in my room I honestly didnt think it could be much better...but i am consistently blown away how much better the colors and blacks are now
Considering there was a possibility of your getting divorced for buying the RS600, I hesitate to answer this question. :o
yeah thats still in flux right now too. lmao.....gotta unload my PJ and fast!!!(im the dummy who bought one for my dad...and he refused it so if im divorced its my dads fault)
i have no means of buying the uber expensive 4500 (maybe in 2 years when avscience blows them out??).....but just curious how much better it could get ..and judging by your answer....it might be a big step up lol
I keep getting blown away everytime I view really good content on it.
Blade Runner 2049 UHD just arrived yesterday! I love Amazon! Hope to get to watch it on Friday.
watched the first hour...and realized i had another 1.75 hours to go...and was already falling asleep.
the sound is LOUD....and the picture is great...story is meh so far...to be continued...
Speaking of blu-rays, I swear that mine became blurrier the more I watched UHD. I viewed UHD titles as 'decently sharp' and blu-rays reminiscent of DVDs. :) Crazy since I never used to think that Blu-rays lacked resolution before. Honestly, I think my Sim2 gave a sharper impression overall - probably due to the high ANSI contrast (and no, I'm not suggesting that the Sim2 is the better projector in any other way and I'm very happy with my JVC).
So, after reading reports here and there about madVR 's great scaling I have been curious - but pessimistic - how good it could be. After all, I could scale 1080p in the JVC, the Panny, or my Lumagen and the JVC was the better of all 3. Still, I suspected that setting up madVR involves jumping through hoops upside down and praying to the video gods and I wasn't overly motivated.
Until I learned that you can now rip UHDs. I say 'now' but it's been a little while - I'm just late to the party. I already have a movie server and truly appreciate how fast you can load up a movie or jump around chapters from a hard disc and not have to load discs. I often revisit movies I've seen to watch favorite chapters etc., so my motivation escalated.
Well it took me a couple days to put everything together but I have to say I'm very happy I made the move. I already have 23 titles ripped. But I'm here to say that madVR's scaling is truly top notch. There is a VERY visible difference with 1080p titles. I had to pick up my jaw off the floor several times yesterday when surfing around my collection. The resulting image is very natural and film-like and no longer feels like I'm watching a DNR'd 4k disc.
Anyways, just thought I'd share. Not for technophobes, but if you're a PQ nut like I am and not scared of computers, it's worth it.
I've been pretty impressed with the UB900 upscaling. Anyway, I'd need to rip nearly 500 Blu - rays. :o
Speaking of blu-rays, I swear that mine became blurrier the more I watched UHD. I viewed UHD titles as 'decently sharp' and blu-rays reminiscent of DVDs. :) Crazy since I never used to think that Blu-rays lacked resolution before. Honestly, I think my Sim2 gave a sharper impression overall - probably due to the high ANSI contrast (and no, I'm not suggesting that the Sim2 is the better projector in any other way and I'm very happy with my JVC).
So, after reading reports here and there about madVR 's great scaling I have been curious - but pessimistic - how good it could be. After all, I could scale 1080p in the JVC, the Panny, or my Lumagen and the JVC was the better of all 3. Still, I suspected that setting up madVR involves jumping through hoops upside down and praying to the video gods and I wasn't overly motivated.
Until I learned that you can now rip UHDs. I say 'now' but it's been a little while - I'm just late to the party. I already have a movie server and truly appreciate how fast you can load up a movie or jump around chapters from a hard disc and not have to load discs. I often revisit movies I've seen to watch favorite chapters etc., so my motivation escalated.
Well it took me a couple days to put everything together but I have to say I'm very happy I made the move. I already have 23 titles ripped. But I'm here to say that madVR's scaling is truly top notch. There is a VERY visible difference with 1080p titles. I had to pick up my jaw off the floor several times yesterday when surfing around my collection. The resulting image is very natural and film-like and no longer feels like I'm watching a DNR'd 4k disc.
Anyways, just thought I'd share. Not for technophobes, but if you're a PQ nut like I am and not scared of computers, it's worth it.
So, after reading reports here and there about madVR 's great scaling I have been curious - but pessimistic - how good it could be.
I've been using madVR for many many years now. I actually sold my UB900 about 2 weeks ago now that I can use my PC for everything (1080p, 3D and now UHD BD). I have about 30 UHD BD titles ripped to my PC. The UB900 is nice for convenience, but if you want the absolute best image quality, madVR is the way to go for all types of bluray whether it be 1080p, 3D or UHD! The quality of it's scaling, rendering and granular control over every facet of the processing, scaling and rendering process is second to none.
I've been reading the MadVR posts by Manni and others, and it does intrigue me. I've been doing some reading, but have never had a HTPC.
Can you provide a link to an intro for dummies for the basic steps needed to set this up? I'm not looking for comprehensive step-by-step details, but more an overview of what hardware is needed, what gets connected to what, using what kind of connection, etc.
The same with respect to ripping UHD's: what hardware/software is needed?
Is this lossless, and do you maintain access to lossless audio tracks, including Atmos?
I more or less hate computers, but what kind of money are we talking for a HTPC - full bells and whistles, fast as a falcon on meth, and storage for 400 Blu-rays and 250 4K Blu-rays ?
The PC would probably cost around $1000 plus harddrives. For your 250 UHD Blurays and 400 1080p Blurays I'd say you'd need 30 TB of space. Four 8TB harddrives will run you about $500-$600 total. This would still be cheaper than a lumagen but offer even better scaling and additional functionality.
You would need to buy an optical drive and ripping software.
This is the drive to buy ($80): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DWFPDJI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Will this allow ripping UHD Blu-rays? The description at Amazon only indicates Blu-ray, and at least up until fairly recently, there weren't UHD-BD PC drives.
I've used MakeMKV before, so am familiar with that - apparently it's now able to handle UHD-BD as well?
In addition to MadVR, what software is needed?
What do you use for remote control? I've got a Harmony Smart Remote and Hub, which works extremely well for controlling my current system - would this be able to control an HTPC setup, or would I need a different method?
I have to admit, I am intrigued by the idea.
Thanks Dylan and Floyd. I've been wondering about this myself. My collection is not nearly as big, maybe 250 Blu-Rays and as of now 36 UHD Blu-Rays. If someone makes a list of the hardware for the PC I would have someone build it for me and load up the software. What nas is popular? A few years back when I was researching I heard of Synology. What do you guys do for a back up? Is that just why you buy a lot more drive space than what you need so its enough for a backup in case one of the drives goes?
This should go in the appropriate thread if we have one .
There's a bit of a misconception that a NAS is needed. You'll be fine putting the harddrives inside the computer case and if you wanted them available throughout your home you can easily make the harddrives available over your network inside Windows. A NAS is not necessary for madVR and is just an added expense that isn't needed. An issue right now regarding madVR is that a desktop graphics card is needed. The issue is that cryptocurrency mining has artificially driven up the cost of GPUs. Cards once selling for $400 are now selling for $750 because companies know people will buy them at that cost to mine bitcoins. It's ridiculous right now.
Don, this drive will absolutely read and rip UHDs. Technically UHDs are Blu-rays. They are either BD-50, BD-66 or BD-100 (the number indicating the capacity). The copy-protection is very different than regular Blu-rays however.
MakeMkv will rip them (I can personally vouch for that since I've been ripping non-stop) but it does rely on having decryption keys. Basically this is a 'key' file containing a list of known codes for all UHD titles. It's a download available from the MakeMKV site. It's possible that you would try to rip a UHD and the key wouldn't be in your file (e.g. not deciphered yet) and you would have to wait a bit to get an updated 'key' file.
In addition to MadVR, you need software that allows you to browse titles and all upon MadVR to play back the movie that you choose. I am using Kodi DSPlayer. It's free and seems pretty good. I used to use something called Plex (for regular HD titles that I ripped) but it doesn't have the capability to use MadVR (which you really want).
I am also using Harmony smart remote and hub. Can this control an HTPC? Yes. You would need to get a usb bluetooth thingamajig so that Harmony could communicate with the HTPC but this is no big deal in terms of cost or installation.
Ian
Awesome, Dylan. Than drive won't rip UHD BD will it? One other thing is I want a horizontal pc case to put with the rest of the HT gear . Thanks for all the info.
can you only get this stuff online?
One other thing is I want a horizontal pc case to put with the rest of the HT gear . Thanks for all the info.
I use the Silverstone CW03 case with the front VFD Touch screen.... I run a Nvidia 1080Ti with no problems in this case..Plenty of room also for HD storage...
https://www.pccasegear.com/products/17619/silverstone-cw03-mt-black-htpc-case-with-touch-screen
I don't know if size is a consideration as to why he wants to go with a flat laying case. The Silverstone CW03 is essentially the same size as the case I recommended. It's 18.53" x 7.87" x 16.93" vs 16.93" x 7.3" x 17.17". If size is a consideration, there are cases that will accommodate 4 harddrives and a full sized graphics card that are much smaller.
I use the Silverstone CW03 case with the front VFD Touch screen.... I run a Nvidia 1080Ti with no problems in this case..Plenty of room also for HD storage...
https://www.pccasegear.com/products/17619/silverstone-cw03-mt-black-htpc-case-with-touch-screen
Rack mount cases:
https://www.newegg.com/server-chassis/SubCategory/ID-412/
The Silverstone is sweet but, 900 bucks. Yikes. :o
Could you recommend a UHD film we're all likely to have that we should be able to rip and test whether our hardware works? I already have the infrastructure (software/NAS) and have ripped all my blurays, so maybe time to look at UHD...
So I was going to start a thread about playing UHD BDs in the HTPC section, but how do you post picture? Is it possible without an external/3rd party site/account?
So I was going to start a thread about playing UHD BDs in the HTPC section, but how do you post picture? Is it possible without an external/3rd party site/account?
Don't have either of those 8)
I did get it to work, I just have to post first, and then go back and link to the attachments.
For those interested in discussing madVR/etc more I started a thread:
https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=1654.0#
That is strange. I just type up a post and then hit attachments and other options link.
What I normally do is upload photos to my imgur.com account and then paste the link directly in my post. You need to click the Insert Image option above the text box when making the post to put the proper syntax around the image url to make it show up as an image otherwise it will just show the URL link, ie the image link ending in .jpg or .png needs to be in between the img and /img brackets.
Yeah, to be clear, I know how to stick the image URL in a post and have it show up (img /img tags), but I don't have an account anywhere to upload to, and I don't post enough pictures to make signing up for one worthwhile. Plus the benefit of uploading them to the forum is they don't disappear if the other hoster takes them down.[/b]
I was just curious because on some other forum software, as soon as you upload/attach the photos, there's a link available (from the edit page) where you can copy a link and stick it in a post. It seems this forum software requires the attachments to be posted before you can link to them
Back to actual RS4500 talk. I've decided that mode 1 laser dimming is the best option for 4K now. Mode 2 is just too aggressive sometimes, even with 4K. Mode 1 seems to work fairly transparently on everything. Mode 1 is also best on 1080p source material too.
I noticed that mode 2 isn't as good with the latest firmware.
So do you ever use mode 2 anymore?
Subsequent laser models with higher native contrast will allow for less aggressive dimming to be used. Hopefully it's a combination of higher native contrast and refined algorithms.
I have bugged JVC about working on a further revision to the dimming software. One has to assume that anything learned creating improved firmware for the RS4500 can be useful with any future upgraded models anyway.
The next revision to the dimming software will be on the RS-4520. Start saving. :) ;)
Already ahead of you on that. :) Just put a big chunk of money into my savings account, waiting until this fall to see what is offered.
So, what are the rumors for the JVC line up for Cedia 2018? I'd like an e-shift machine but, 8k please! :)
So, 4 models? Top dog, and three others? 8)
No rumors yet, but I think JVC needs to step into native 4K this year, though I think a laser version of an RS640 would be a fantastic projector.
I have a question, I have not read much into the specs of the JVC. Do the new models have 12-bit processing throughout? Does the JVC or has JVC announced support for Dolby Vision or HD10+ ?
For instance, I heard it cannot do 12-bit 4k 60.
I am asking because the competitor says it takes 12-bit but reality is, it downconverts to 8bit to process then upscales back to 12. Typically marketing can be misleading. Who knows a thing about a thing or two :D
I have a question, I have not read much into the specs of the JVC. Do the new models have 12-bit processing throughout? Does the JVC or has JVC announced support for Dolby Vision or HD10+ ?
For instance, I heard it cannot do 12-bit 4k 60.
I am asking because the competitor says it takes 12-bit but reality is, it downconverts to 8bit to process then upscales back to 12. Typically marketing can be misleading. Who knows a thing about a thing or two :D
For instance, I heard it cannot do 12-bit 4k 60.
Sorry, I said this wrong, what I should have said was I heard the JVC is limited to 8 bit at 4k 60 4:4:4
Sorry, I said this wrong, what I should have said was I heard the JVC is limited to 8 bit at 4k 60 4:4:4
Mike yes at 4:2:2. Besides JVC spec's has anyone confirmed the JVC has a 12-bit pipeline.
I see the ownership of the Z1/RS4500 is "Diminishing" as of late ......Something in the wind perhaps..? ;)
Why do you say that? Who do you know that is no longer an owner?
I thought Kris had changed his mind and decided to keep it.
What does a used unit sell for?
He did keep it, that is what Mike just said. :P He's waiting untill the fall. ;)
He did sell it.
Already? What's he using in the mean time? I know Mike said he has a RS640 coming.
Don't quote me but I believe an RS600 for now.
My RS4500 isn't going anywhere. As for something " new in the wind ", nobody knows. Maybe, maybe not. Half the time the something new is a slightly better version of something current. With a new model number.
Disregarding the image the 4500 throws,
Mike, Regarding the image. How are you honestly finding the image from the 640 coming from extended viewing time with the 4500 ?
As for myself, i hadnt viewed my X9900 for a while as i have been playing with a friends Sony 760ES and my Z1/RS4500....firing up the X9900 again after a time really did show up the shortcomings of E-Shift .. :o
For those interested , some results of the Oppo 203 and Panasonic UB900 and the Z1/RS4500
I have had the Oppo 203 since its initial release, i wasnt happy with its performance image wise so purchased the UB900 . I still retained the Oppo 203 and try it from time to time with newer firmware as updates are released. I always end up still preferring the UB900 image wise.
With the advent of the new HDR mapping that Oppo has implemented, i got all excited again. In preparation of getting the new firmware (which is still not available here in Aus) , i decided to check settings on the Oppo and set up a profile on my Z1/RS4500 .
I have been spending a large amount of time recently watching the Series "Game of Thrones" which are some of the BEST quality Blu Ray,s i have seen.
Decided to do a comparo against the UB900 on these disc,s.
Once again the difference in image quality...Detail/Sharpness/ Colour is still "substantially" better on the UB900...its not subtle!
Game of thrones....Season 6 first disc chapter 4......starts off with the Tyrian and Varys walking down the Castle walkway...In the background on the tallest stone tower there are many "white" rocks in the stonework.....the UB900 renders these with clarity and detail. The Oppo 203 "Smears" them to the point of not being recognisable at all!
Various scenes along this chapter have stone walls and brickwork of the castle in view, also paver,s on the walkway.... the UB900 again renders these with far greater detail and sharpness.......
I "was" keen to try the new HDR "Tone Mapping" , but now not so!! Even if the Tone Mapping is successful i am not sure i would like to sacrifice the substantial increase of Detail and sharpness that the UB900 provides over the Oppo 203.
Even though the above comparison used HD Blu Ray, i know the results of UHD will yield similar results as they have always done..
So IMO, the UB900 is still the "top Dog" if you seek outright image quality..
The UB900 paired with the Z1/RS4500 makes for one hell of an image.. :)
For those interested , some results of the Oppo 203 and Panasonic UB900 and the Z1/RS4500
I have had the Oppo 203 since its initial release, i wasnt happy with its performance image wise so purchased the UB900 . I still retained the Oppo 203 and try it from time to time with newer firmware as updates are released. I always end up still preferring the UB900 image wise.
With the advent of the new HDR mapping that Oppo has implemented, i got all excited again. In preparation of getting the new firmware (which is still not available here in Aus) , i decided to check settings on the Oppo and set up a profile on my Z1/RS4500 .
I have been spending a large amount of time recently watching the Series "Game of Thrones" which are some of the BEST quality Blu Ray,s i have seen.
Decided to do a comparo against the UB900 on these disc,s.
Once again the difference in image quality...Detail/Sharpness/ Colour is still "substantially" better on the UB900...its not subtle!
Game of thrones....Season 6 first disc chapter 4......starts off with the Tyrian and Varys walking down the Castle walkway...In the background on the tallest stone tower there are many "white" rocks in the stonework.....the UB900 renders these with clarity and detail. The Oppo 203 "Smears" them to the point of not being recognisable at all!
Various scenes along this chapter have stone walls and brickwork of the castle in view, also paver,s on the walkway.... the UB900 again renders these with far greater detail and sharpness.......
I "was" keen to try the new HDR "Tone Mapping" , but now not so!! Even if the Tone Mapping is successful i am not sure i would like to sacrifice the substantial increase of Detail and sharpness that the UB900 provides over the Oppo 203.
Even though the above comparison used HD Blu Ray, i know the results of UHD will yield similar results as they have always done..
So IMO, the UB900 is still the "top Dog" if you seek outright image quality..
The UB900 paired with the Z1/RS4500 makes for one hell of an image.. :)
For those interested , some results of the Oppo 203 and Panasonic UB900 and the Z1/RS4500
I have had the Oppo 203 since its initial release, i wasnt happy with its performance image wise so purchased the UB900 . I still retained the Oppo 203 and try it from time to time with newer firmware as updates are released. I always end up still preferring the UB900 image wise.
With the advent of the new HDR mapping that Oppo has implemented, i got all excited again. In preparation of getting the new firmware (which is still not available here in Aus) , i decided to check settings on the Oppo and set up a profile on my Z1/RS4500 .
I have been spending a large amount of time recently watching the Series "Game of Thrones" which are some of the BEST quality Blu Ray,s i have seen.
Decided to do a comparo against the UB900 on these disc,s.
Once again the difference in image quality...Detail/Sharpness/ Colour is still "substantially" better on the UB900...its not subtle!
Game of thrones....Season 6 first disc chapter 4......starts off with the Tyrian and Varys walking down the Castle walkway...In the background on the tallest stone tower there are many "white" rocks in the stonework.....the UB900 renders these with clarity and detail. The Oppo 203 "Smears" them to the point of not being recognisable at all!
Various scenes along this chapter have stone walls and brickwork of the castle in view, also paver,s on the walkway.... the UB900 again renders these with far greater detail and sharpness.......
I "was" keen to try the new HDR "Tone Mapping" , but now not so!! Even if the Tone Mapping is successful i am not sure i would like to sacrifice the substantial increase of Detail and sharpness that the UB900 provides over the Oppo 203.
Even though the above comparison used HD Blu Ray, i know the results of UHD will yield similar results as they have always done..
So IMO, the UB900 is still the "top Dog" if you seek outright image quality..
The UB900 paired with the Z1/RS4500 makes for one hell of an image.. :)
Craig, tonight i will try the "Source Direct" option on the Oppo 203 and let the Z1/RS4500 do the up-scaling...i havnt actually done this , so will be interesting..
How have others found the up-scaling of the Z1/RS4500 compared to either the UB900 or the Oppo 203 ?
No, Not using "source Direct" on the Oppo... and yes it is basically a comparison on the up scaling of the 203 vs the UB900.
On ALL previous occasions when i have compared the Oppo 203 and UB900 with 4K UHD,s the results is the same..... a "cleaner" more detailed image from the UB900...i DONT expect this to change.
What i was getting at is....even if the Tone Mapping proves to be a winner, i dont know if i like the idea of sacrificing image cleanness and detail for the "maybe" benefits of the tone mapping curves.. :-\
Your logic makes no sense here. You are saying the scaling on the Panny is superior to the Oppo, BUT with HDR content, the content is ALREADY 4K, so no scaling is employed. So your tests have ZERO bearing on what you are dismissing.
At this point I might as well wait and see what the Panasonic UB820 brings to the HDR tone mapping party.
It the tone mapping on the 820 is working to the same 100 nits as the 800, it will be behind the Oppo.
Your logic makes no sense here. You are saying the scaling on the Panny is superior to the Oppo, BUT with HDR content, the content is ALREADY 4K, so no scaling is employed. So your tests have ZERO bearing on what you are dismissing.
Kris,The difference between the UB900 to the Oppo 203 as I have them both as well lies in the Panny's "Precision Chroma sampling". It is more notable w/ projectors than w/ flat panel displays but the Panny renders a touch better shadow detail and slightly better color saturation IMO. However, I am curious to see how the Oppo's new tone mapping functions work w/ UHD material b/c, for me, it could tilt me back towards the Oppo for my RS4500. Right now for my setup it's perfect b/c I get to utilize the DV function of the Oppo on my OLED and the Panny strictly with my PJ, which is where it outshines the Oppo, at least to me. Again though how good is the tone mapping w/ the Oppo and if I buy a Lumagen Pro then none of it matters ;0
I was "trying" to say that the UB900 does scale HD BluRay image better than the 203, BUT as in the past the UB900 also does a better job with rendering "Native" 4K UHD .
So i am trying to decide even if the HDR Tone mapping is excellent on the 203 , will it be enough to offset the discrepancy i see in the image ( detail/Sharpness) compared to the UB900.
I usually use a HTPC for HD Bluray Playback, but just thought i would once again compare the Oppo to the UB900 .
I find the UB900 to produce a sharper more detailed image than the 203 on "BOTH" HD Bluray and 4K UHD BluRay..
watched The Mummy (2017) last night using the oppo mode 2 HDR off (st2020) luminance target 400 nits....and the picture was outstanding! in dark scenes you could clearly see Tom C. shirt was navy blue an see all the details in the folds of the shirt.
i am now using the oppo 100% of the time...any fiddling is super easy as i can switch the target luminance if needed by the iphone app.
one issue I noticed (only because this is the first movie I have watched with the DI enabled) was towars the end...Jenny was in Bright light and Tom was in a shadow....when it switched from her o him...there was a pulsing of the picture (im sure it was the iris trying to catch up) was very annoying.
Thanks for the feedback.. I need to experiment myself. Have you had your unit calibrated? If so are you using a setting that implements a curve generated via the Arve tool in conjunction with the Oppo tone mapping?
The difference between the UB900 to the Oppo 203 as I have them both as well lies in the Panny's "Precision Chroma sampling". It is more notable w/ projectors than w/ flat panel displays but the Panny renders a touch better shadow detail and slightly better color saturation IMO. However, I am curious to see how the Oppo's new tone mapping functions work w/ UHD material b/c, for me, it could tilt me back towards the Oppo for my RS4500. Right now for my setup it's perfect b/c I get to utilize the DV function of the Oppo on my OLED and the Panny strictly with my PJ, which is where it outshines the Oppo, at least to me. Again though how good is the tone mapping w/ the Oppo and if I buy a Lumagen Pro then none of it matters ;0
When the new Panasonic UB820 comes out, you may get to have your cake and eat it too.
When the new Panasonic UB820 comes out, you may get to have your cake and eat it too.
Agreed, I think the 820 is going to be an interesting player. I wonder if they can take the tone mapping to another level.
The question is can I wait for the UB820, or do I get an Oppo now, or do I go straight down the rabbit hole and get a Radiance Pro ? :o
This might be stupid but could you in theory run the UB900 through the 203 HDMI in and use the Oppos tone mapping whilst utilizing the pannys chroma sampling or will the chroma sampling be done by the Oppo too? Thinking out loud here and I assume that you have to either use the Oppo as strictly pass through or allow it to do all of the "work" including the chroma sampling, but never hurts to ask right?
Similar dilemma here... :(
I have been using the UB900 , now having seen what the Oppo 203 does with the Tone Mapping which is VERY impressive , i wonder just how good the Radiance Pro can improve the image again??
@Kris Deering ......any chance you can give some feedback on the differences between the Oppo 203 and the Radiance Pro ? Thanks.. :)
I have been using the UB900 , now having seen what the Oppo 203 does with the Tone Mapping which is VERY impressive , i wonder just how good the Radiance Pro can improve the image again??
The thing with the Pro is that the work is being done within the 3D LUT as well, so you not only get great tone mapping, you get correct colour mapping too, so there is the potential for perfection. The Oppo isn't doing this. Of course, there is no dynamic HDR on the Pro yet... but it is promised.
The thing with the Pro is that the work is being done within the 3D LUT as well, so you not only get great tone mapping, you get correct colour mapping too, so there is the potential for perfection. The Oppo isn't doing this. Of course, there is no dynamic HDR on the Pro yet... but it is promised.
JVC if you are listening, please support HDMI 2.1 with 120hz support at 4K on a future projector. The gaming and computing crowd will love you :)
Could be awhile. Denon indicated the new HDMI chips won't be available for at least a year.
An upgradable input board for the projector would make it easier to swallow the $35k price tag in the meantime :)
It should be an interesting CEDIA this fall. :)
Of course we say that every year. ;D We never say " this year there won't be squat at Cedia ". ;)
Interesting.
To my eye, the Oppo images seem to have slightly more shadow detail, although not much. The Javs images seem to have a tad more saturation, although this may be secondary to being slightly darker on the low end.
What were your subjective impression in terms of the overall viewing experience?
I got some further strong rumors via the Local JVC folks that the 9 series will in fact go laser its next 4K iteration. I'm sure there will be big celebrations around the place if that happens!
So, the 9 series is like the RS500/600?
Talking about the replacement for the RS640. Laser would be very nice. :)
Talking about the replacement for the RS640. Laser would be very nice. :)
I got some further strong rumors via the Local JVC folks that the 9 series will in fact go laser its next 4K iteration. I'm sure there will be big celebrations around the place if that happens!
Hearing this makes me mad. Then I remember I didn’t even pay remotely close to full retail for the 600 (cause if i has to i would still have the rs400. Which even that i had to buy second hand) So even if these rumors are true it ain’t happening for me lmao.
Hard to imagine they could price it at current RS640 MSRP - unless they plan on raising it.
One wild guess for next year's replacements: RS640 native 4K + laser, RS540 native 4K + lamp, RS440 remains largely the same as it destroys its current competition at ~$3999 unless they want to bump up the price and make it native to compete against the Sony 285ES, but that would be tough for them to pull off I imagine with their first go around with the regular RS line.
The lens of the current 6xx series could be used for a 4k laser machine. It is better than the current Sony projector lenses isn't it?
So, the 9 series is like the RS500/600?
Mode 3 and 400
Is exactly what I have settled on. And I think you are in THE best position since chad was in your house and set the curve to YOUR room
Oppo vs diy Arve tool. I think the oppo wins.
Chad has calibration equipment you and I can't afford. The Oppo tone mapping is the next best thing if you don't have access to Chad. Especially since you need to buy a 4K Blu-ray player anyway !
I sold my UB900 and I don't think I can go back to a hardware player again. I only begrudgingly used the UB900 because there wasn't a way to playback UHD BDs on the PC until the last 6 months or so. But this new tone mapping feature on the Oppo sounds intriguing. I'm going to see if madshi has anything similar to this in the pipeline for madVR. If not, I might have to pick up an Oppo at some point.
Does anyone have any frame of reference to base an opinion on the Lumagen Pro vs Custom curves and the RS4500?
I am bouncing back and forth on the Lumagen Pro and it would be nice to have some real time feedback from anyone that has it.
Kris Deering does - and he's said the Lumagen is in another league ( as is it's price ). I'm on the fence too, but it's certainly sounds like a step above. I'm pretty happy with the picture now, so I have a hard time justifing the cost .
I can swallow the pill for the cost, but the amount of time I can spend w/ another piece of equipment with an infinite amount of additional "tweaking" that can be done is the thing that has me most nervous. Being that my free time is extremely limited and adding another piece of customizable equipment to my HT might be too much.
Does anyone have any frame of reference to base an opinion on the Lumagen Pro vs Custom curves and the RS4500?
I am bouncing back and forth on the Lumagen Pro and it would be nice to have some real time feedback from anyone that has it.
Kris Deering has used both.
I hear you there. My RS4500 is totally plug and play with the custom gamma curves now, it looks great, and I don't need to mess with stuff. I'm going to guess that a Radiance Pro would be best installed just prior to a full blown calibration anyway. Since Chad b won't be back in CA for a year or two, I'm in no hurry.
Yeah and Chad I think is coming my way in a month or two so if I'm going the Radiance Pro route I need to pull trigger soon! :-X
I'd send Chad an email about this - I think he just calibrated someone's system with one. Don't forget who sells them! 8)
True - both the Oppo and the Radiance Pro. - the only thing he hasn't compared is a Arve's Tool custom gamma curve installed as part of a Chad B calibration, customized to his particular screen size and material.
Kris has also played with the custom gamma curves. Manni even made a few curves specifically for Kris's system, for Kris to test against the Radiance Pro.
to get a much better picture at this point is if JVC comes out with a much better revision of the RS4500.
Craig where would like to see improvements. What are the projectors weak points?
To all RS4500 owners, looking through 80 something pages there are few to no screen caps. Everyone likes to see pictures, come on guys post some good screen caps. Convince me and others to purchase one:)
Craig where would like to see improvements. What are the projectors weak points?
To all RS4500 owners, looking through 80 something pages there are few to no screen caps. Everyone likes to see pictures, come on guys post some good screen caps.
bunch in https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=292.15 (https://discuss.avscience.com/index.php?topic=292.15) there
Craig where would like to see improvements. What are the projectors weak points?
To all RS4500 owners, looking through 80 something pages there are few to no screen caps. Everyone likes to see pictures, come on guys post some good screen caps. Convince me and others to purchase one:)
Fan noise, black levels are elevated compared to standard JVCs and dynamic iris is broken. Other than that an absolutely STELLAR projector.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
I'm using a Lumagen Pro but have never used custom curves to make comparisons.
Craig where would like to see improvements. What are the projectors weak points?
People are upset the RS4500 isn't beating out JVC's own e-shift projectors in terms of on/off contrast. While understandable I think people need to realize this is a first generation product. It took JVC decades to reach the point where we're at now their bulb based units. If JVC can put out a similar amount of lumens as the RS4500 with the amount of on/off contrast the RS520 has in a new lamp based native 4K projector at or under $10000 this or next year, I'll be happy and content with that projector for several years. I think this is the projector many are waiting for from JVC. I think Sony is forcing JVC's hand in this now that they have two SXRD 4K units selling for well under $10000.
People are upset the RS4500 isn't beating out JVC's own e-shift projectors in terms of on/off contrast.
You really really really need to see the Z1/RS4500 first hand, and then honestly you wont place so much emphasis on the above comment :)
Agreed. The amount of time that you actually view material where you can even notice the decrease in native on/off versus the lamp based projectors is minuscule compared to all the other time spent where the image it throws is undoubtedly superior in every facet than the lamps based models.
You really really really need to see the Z1/RS4500 first hand, and then honestly you wont place so much emphasis on the above comment :)
I don't know, when I upgraded my RS4910 to my RS600, the improvement in contrast was one of the primary things I noticed, and the RS4910 had "better" contrast than the RS4500 apparently. So call me skeptical.
I definitely won't be taking a drop in contrast on faith, or buying sight unseen.
Does the Sony VW5000ES do both dynamic iris and laser dimming? It seems like they could be used in conjunction if the iris motion can be made smooth enough.
I don't know, when I upgraded my RS4910 to my RS600, the improvement in contrast was one of the primary things I noticed, and the RS4910 had "better" contrast than the RS4500 apparently. So call me skeptical.
I definitely won't be taking a drop in contrast on faith, or buying sight unseen.
No laser projectors offer laser dimming and a dynamic iris together as that implementation would just be a nightmare. It would have to be one or the other.
I don't know, when I upgraded my RS4910 to my RS600, the improvement in contrast was one of the primary things I noticed, and the RS4910 had "better" contrast than the RS4500 apparently. So call me skeptical.
I definitely won't be taking a drop in contrast on faith, or buying sight unseen.
Movies like Guardians of the Galaxy 4K just look spectacular !
I have had MANY people in my theatre and they have seen an X9500 and my X9900 directly against my Z1/RS4500 NOT one person has ever noticed any deficiency of contrast with the Z1/RS4500.
In fact on more than one instance the Z1/RS4500 appears to exceed the contrast level of the E-Shift units due to its superb laser Dynamic Dimming.
Go see one
Then you need to see one. Kris has had several people over to his house, including Darin, and all of them walked away impressed with the image. The dynamic dimming works very well with the 4500.
I'd love to see contrast vs ADL measurements like here for the 4500, that would be really informative:
http://projectiondream.com/en/jvc-dla-x5000-review-projector/
I'm not saying it can't be, just that I'm skeptical, and that I'd have to see one first. And FWIW, I'm thinking more in the context of a future laser replacement for the RSxx0 series. An RS4500 class machine is never going to happen for me. Even if I could afford one, I can't personally justify that expense in my HT, there's too many other things that money could go toward (no judgements on anyone who does have one of course, I'd love to, it's just not in the cards).
If only it were that easy. The ones I know of are all over 800 miles away (Kris, John, Mike/AVS, Craig -formerly). And on top of that I have 0 trust in showrooms, I have yet to be impressed by any projector in any showroom, so since I'm not actually in the market for one, I'm not inclined to take a multi-day trip just to go see one.
I have no doubt the 4500 throws an impressive image in net. I'm just a bit skeptical that I wouldn't notice the contrast deficiency vs my RS600. It wasn't the black level (fade to black) of my RS4910, it was in the mid-low APL scenes where my RS600 is noticably ahead of the prior RS4910. So unless there's some other secret sauce in the RS4500 that lets it retain much higher intrascene contrast in mid-low APL scenes than something like the RS4910, I think I'd notice.
And maybe it's the optics/optical path that lets it hold the high intrascene contrast to higher APL levels than it's cheaper siblings, I'd believe that, but then that would say it's not due to the laser or laser dimming, it's due to the hardware, hardware which we'll likely never see at the sub $10k area where I'm stuck.
I'd love to see contrast vs ADL measurements like here for the 4500, that would be really informative:
http://projectiondream.com/en/jvc-dla-x5000-review-projector/
Please post some screen shots!!
I'm not saying it can't be, just that I'm skeptical, and that I'd have to see one first. And FWIW, I'm thinking more in the context of a future laser replacement for the RSxx0 series. An RS4500 class machine is never going to happen for me. Even if I could afford one, I can't personally justify that expense in my HT, there's too many other things that money could go toward (no judgements on anyone who does have one of course, I'd love to, it's just not in the cards).
If only it were that easy. The ones I know of are all over 800 miles away (Kris, John, Mike/AVS, Craig -formerly). And on top of that I have 0 trust in showrooms, I have yet to be impressed by any projector in any showroom, so since I'm not actually in the market for one, I'm not inclined to take a multi-day trip just to go see one.
I have no doubt the 4500 throws an impressive image in net. I'm just a bit skeptical that I wouldn't notice the contrast deficiency vs my RS600. It wasn't the black level (fade to black) of my RS4910, it was in the mid-low APL scenes where my RS600 is noticably ahead of the prior RS4910. So unless there's some other secret sauce in the RS4500 that lets it retain much higher intrascene contrast in mid-low APL scenes than something like the RS4910, I think I'd notice.
And maybe it's the optics/optical path that lets it hold the high intrascene contrast to higher APL levels than it's cheaper siblings, I'd believe that, but then that would say it's not due to the laser or laser dimming, it's due to the hardware, hardware which we'll likely never see at the sub $10k area where I'm stuck.
I'd love to see contrast vs ADL measurements like here for the 4500, that would be really informative:
http://projectiondream.com/en/jvc-dla-x5000-review-projector/
Im curious how aggressive Laser dimming is working in the JVC. Has anyone reported a number, is doing 4 or 5 or more x native?
For instance, NEC has a new laser projector that is doing 10X diming which might be too aggressive leading to visible artifacts.
I would guess the 4500 is doing 5 or 6x.
Has anyone measured native contrast then tried measuring again with laser dimming activated?
The full-on/full-off contrast was measured with a Minolta T-10 meter from 4 inches away from the lens face. I tested the projector in various laser levels with the lens aperture in various conditions. The highest native contrast ratio (dynamic laser disabled) was obtained with the projector in High laser mode with the aperture fully closed (–15). This produced a contrast ratio of around 8,000:1. Using the dynamic laser in Mode 2 (aperture fully open) resulted in a peak contrast ratio of approximately 47,000:1 in High laser mode. For my viewing I used the projector in Mid laser mode with the aperture set to –10. At the approximate mid-zoom lens position, this produced a native contrast ratio of about 15,000:1 and 16 ft-L on my screen. When I enabled Mode 2 for dynamic laser dimming it took the contrast ratio up to 78,000:1. Max peak contrast was 150,000:1, measured in High laser mode, the dynamic laser dimming engaged, and the aperture fully closed. The user setup plays a huge role in what type of contrast performance you can expect to see.
Thank you, Dylan. Amazing numbers. Does the projector allow the use of both dynamic iris and laser dimming at the same time or just one or the other?
So the laser dimming is indeed as confirmed by Mike using an average multiplier between 5 to 6.
If using a higher mutiplier with a typical dynamic iris you may see some nasty artifacts, breathing etc. Having never seen Laser Dimming in action how does it compare to a dynamic iris, do you notice it, is it completly invissible,do you notice any artifacts.
Thank you!!
That's a bummer. Are they replacing them with brand new units ? If so, at least you have that going for you. Knock on wood I've have had zero issues with mine.
So I just got word that my second RS4500, which replaced my first one that produced a random image judder, is also getting replaced b/c of a malfunctioning exhaust fan.
I am also getting a replacement Z1/RS4500 in the next day or so... :) JVC agreed to replace my unit due to a couple of ongoing issues.
My current unit has 460 hours on it, so will be starting over again.. ;)
JVC support has been superb...
The problem with dimming is with the subs: since they are 100% bright (at least with SDR material), dimming either does not turn on, or there is a lot of pumping.
I'm sure they love laser dimming as it is super precise and smooth without dealing with a motor that is in constant movement.
The problem with dimming is with the subs: since they are 100% bright (at least with SDR material), dimming either does not turn on, or there is a lot of pumping.
That's what I see on a RS400, I can't imagine how it would be different with laser dimming?
The problem with dimming is with the subs: since they are 100% bright (at least with SDR material), dimming either does not turn on, or there is a lot of pumping.
That's what I see on a RS400, I can't imagine how it would be different with laser dimming?
It wouldn't be (I see the same on my RS600), but frankly I couldn't care less about "pumping" on subs, they're not part of the scene/frame IMO, they're a viewer aid. It's the same with credits, I couldn't care less, if the only place I see pumping is on text overlays, then IMO a dynamic illumination system is working fine, and I'm completely happy with it.
I find that placing the subtitles within the video frame dramatically helps with this. Though not all players allow you change the position of the subtitles so ymmv.I remux my movies with the subs placed in the video frame, but it still pumps.
I remux my movies with the subs placed in the video frame, but it still pumps.
I remux my movies with the subs placed in the video frame, but it still pumps.
Get that puppy up and running ! :)
What projector ?RS-400.
I use a CM340 lift... so easy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7LGPcSbwjI
RS-400.
When you are in a dark scene, with the iris closed, when somebody speaks and the subs appears, the iris opens. It has too, the subs are 100% white (at least with SDR material).
I don't see how laser dimming would avoid that. You need to you have max light to display thee subs, or else they will look grey.
RS-400.
When you are in a dark scene, with the iris closed, when somebody speaks and the subs appears, the iris opens. It has too, the subs are 100% white (at least with SDR material).
I don't see how laser dimming would avoid that. You need to have max light to display these subs, or else they will look grey.
One thing you could try, as long as the subtitles aren't encoded into the video itself, is change the color of the subtitles if your media player allows this. I've done this in the past with excellent results. Though I think you'd need to convert the PGS subtitles found on the blu-ray disc to something like SRT for this to work. But if you watch with subtitles frequently then I think this could be worth your while. Changing the subtitles to yellow for instance, instead of white, would probably go a long way in helping remove this visible artifact. There are fully automated programs out there that will automatically convert PGS to SRT.
Usually my subtitles are at the bottom of the screen, and if there are two lines, one is in the black bars on 2.35:1 films. Still easy enough to read on the masking on my electric screen ( which is black paint and not that dark ). they don't seem to be that affected down there.
I'd guess, either you're not noticing it Craig, I can't say I notice it either on my RS600, but I know it does pump.
Or, on the 4500, the subs prevent the DI from activating/closing down entirely.
One thing you could try, as long as the subtitles aren't encoded into the video itself, is change the color of the subtitles if your media player allows this. I've done this in the past with excellent results. Though I think you'd need to convert the PGS subtitles found on the blu-ray disc to something like SRT for this to work. But if you watch with subtitles frequently then I think this could be worth your while. Changing the subtitles to yellow for instance, instead of white, would probably go a long way in helping remove this visible artifact. There are fully automated programs out there that will automatically convert PGS to SRT.I make the PGS from the SRT, so having the SRT I can do pretty much what I like with the subs.
I don't have the Radiance Pro yet to properly scale scope movies, but just using the anamorphic mode in the RS4500 tonight to mount the lens and kind of check it out, I already have to say that this is the best anamorphic lens I've tried in my 15+ years of home theater ! Even at my short throw of around the minimum 1.41, it sharp all the way to the edges. Amazing ! Can't wait to use the Radiance Pro for even more resolution, lumens and proper scaling. Guardians of the Galaxy 2 sure looked amazing though !
Craig, are you able to use the Oppo to scale movies with the lens in place?
I have used the Oppo with my RS4500 and with my RS640, paired with my A-lens. What do you want to know? The Oppo can do vertical stretch with 4K 60p HDR content. So can the 4500.
Craig, are you able to use the Oppo to scale movies with the lens in place?
My super high tech anamorphic lens mounting system -
Okay, was just curious. What is the difference between the Paladin & Paladin DCR lenses? Isn't the DCR for the Sony 4k models because of their different panel resolution?
So with my RS-500 mounted about 19ft from screen and screen width of 118" wide would the throw work with the Paladin lens with little to no distortion?
Craig, are you looking to buy a motorized lens transport? I have one that you could adapt to work with that lens.
Okay, was just curious. What is the difference between the Paladin & Paladin DCR lenses? Isn't the DCR for the Sony 4k models because of their different panel resolution?
So with my RS-500 mounted about 19ft from screen and screen width of 118" wide would the throw work with the Paladin lens with little to no distortion?
Correct - and the RS4500 also has native 4096 x 2160 resolution. Here's some handy info -
https://www.panamorph.com/projector-compatiblity-guide/
Thanks Craig, that's what was baffling me. I didn't know the 4500 had the same width panel as the Sony models. I thought that was a Sony thing. I wonder when JVC comes out with lower priced actual 4k models if they will use the same resolution as the Sony and JVC RS-4500 models.
Most of these native 4K projectors are set up assuming that what you watch is 4K UHD - 3840 x 2160, leaving the other pixels unused. So it's hard to say but if they do come with the current 4096 x 2160 chips, hopefully they can scale internally to use it. But you may still want a Lumagen for HDR tone mapping - that's the other thing I'm really curious to see. It's like hot rodding and adding NOS to my RS4500 ! :)
When you get everything dialed in I'm interested in your thoughts of how much extra light output you gain by this setup. A little noticable, very noticable. Looking at the standard Paladin it says 30%, not sure how much that is in the real world.
With the lens in place but no Lumagen to properly scale the picture, the brightness on Guardians of the Galaxy 2 on 4K Blu-ray was noticeable to the eye. Watching on my 128" diagonal 2.35:1 screen with 4K UHD resolution and zooming gives me about 6,220,800 pixels on the screen. Just adding the lens and using anamorphic stretch gives me 8,294,400 pixels - 2,073,600 more lumens. The Lumagen will add another 552,960. So I should go from around 35 foot lamberts for 4K HDR to 45 foot lamberts ( in mid laser ), and nearly 25 foot lamberts in low laser for 2.35:1 Blu -rays. The little testing I did so far looked like 4K HDR has the more dramatic increase in brightness than Blu-ray.
Wow, that's a nice bump! So, when you finally have the Lumagen/lens all set up do you think you will spend the money and make the upgrade to your system, or would you rather wait until the next version of the RS4500 comes and upgrade the projector? :o
When you get everything dialed in I'm interested in your thoughts of how much extra light output you gain by this setup. A little noticable, very noticable. Looking at the standard Paladin it says 30%, not sure how much that is in the real world.
And how much extra brightness is gained when doing the zoom method? We're much closer to max zoom when doing the zoom method so I'd be curious to see how much of a difference in measured brightness there is between these two methods.
I'd be interested in the answer to that also. I could not discern any brightness benefits when using my ISCO over the zoom method. And while the ISCO was convenient (e.g. much faster than zooming) and looked very good, I could tell that (in my situation) zooming produced a better picture.
I'd be interested in the answer to that also. I could not discern any brightness benefits when using my ISCO over the zoom method. And while the ISCO was convenient (e.g. much faster than zooming) and looked very good, I could tell that (in my situation) zooming produced a better picture.
That's the interesting thing about the Paladin DCR vertical compression lens I have here - I'm already about as close as I can get to the screen, so I'm not loosing any brightness by not zooming. I'm picking up all the pixels not being used with the lens. So it's the best of both worlds.
Technically there should be a 20 to 25% more light using an anamorphic due to you are adding the light from the pixels that were used to make up the black bars top/bottom using the zoom method. Not everyone sees this gain equally.
The vertical compression option is interesting and different. If you put up a grid text pattern do you notice any distortion between the size of the square boxes top to bottom. I would think as you roll the lens you can adjust for this but if not carefull, top to bottom or vice versa could be larger. I hope I explained that right. Good to hear the vertical compression is avail.
Technically there should be a 20 to 25% more light using an anamorphic due to you are adding the light from the pixels that were used to make up the black bars top/bottom using the zoom method. Not everyone sees this gain equally.
The vertical compression option is interesting and different. If you put up a grid text pattern do you notice any distortion between the size of the square boxes top to bottom. I would think as you roll the lens you can adjust for this but if not carefull, top to bottom or vice versa could be larger. I hope I explained that right. Good to hear the vertical compression is avail.
True as far as the extra pixels go adding more light, but you also gain more lumen output when using more zoom. So there is more light to be had with either method. The question remains, how much is the difference and does the anamorphic lens beat it out still. I have an ISCO anamorphic lens here. If I have time I'm going to take some measurements later.
That's why the vertical compression lens wins over both. I'm already zoomed as wide as practical ( you wouldn't want to zoom to the absolute max anyway - I'm just under that ) and then I'm adding the lost light and pixels back in on top of that.
What are you using to scale up the height of the image?
Are you using the HDR tone mapping in the Lumagen or will you just use your custom curves for this demo?
So how tricky is it to calibrate using the Radiance Pro?
Though I still love the Lumagen, I'm back to using custom curves instead of the HDR tone mapping.
Why is that?
Well, I'm not entirely sure because I was bowled over by the Lumagen when I first got it. Then I added madVR and ripped all my UHDs and over time found I just wasn't impressed as much anymore. I actually started wondering if my projector was losing contrast or something. Then a friend came over who had never seen 4k or HDR and wanted to see some comparisons. He wasn't impressed with 4k and neither was I. I have 4 different memories for tone mapping and kept switching between them trying to find the setting that would show off the HDR to no avail.
After he left I went bypassed the Lumagen tone mapping (sticking with true HDR mode on the RS4500) and was blown away - just like I used to be. So I will have to delve deeper into the settings I have but my impression is that color is just too compromised when converting to SDR.
My initial quick comparison is the tone mapping looks muted and a bit cooler - more like a Blu-ray, than the custom gamma curves. But in all fairness, I would think having someone like Chad B calibrate the Lumagen output and tone mapping would help.
If you have certain scenes from different movies that you are using for direct comparisons that show obvious differences I'd be curious to get a list of them for my own comparisons. Also realize that the decisions that Chad made when it came to where the tone map starts and how aggressive it is may be different than the settings used in the intensity mapping. The Lumagen provides for a MASSIVE amount of variance so if you prefer the look of your custom curve you could probably emulate it easily by adjusting the values in the IM setup menu (left arrow while watching a movie). You can play to your hearts desire with those.
If you have certain scenes from different movies that you are using for direct comparisons that show obvious differences I'd be curious to get a list of them for my own comparisons. Also realize that the decisions that Chad made when it came to where the tone map starts and how aggressive it is may be different than the settings used in the intensity mapping. The Lumagen provides for a MASSIVE amount of variance so if you prefer the look of your custom curve you could probably emulate it easily by adjusting the values in the IM setup menu (left arrow while watching a movie). You can play to your hearts desire with those.
I'm curious, is the variation between projectors so significant that we need custom calibration per unit?
Does the calibration change over time with a laser based unit?
Since I started into home theater in 2002, no, it never stops ( unless you want it to ). I should have more of a report on Monday, as it's supposed to rain here all weekend, so I'll have plenty of time to take screen shots and get other people's reaction regarding the lens.
I am finding that I lose contrast when converting to SDR. Colors aren't as rich, facial information disappears (almost like I'm losing ANSI contrast) and skin tone gets paler. There doesn't seem to be any setting that will emulate the custom curves I have or simply using the HDR gamma set to Dark Tone 7 and Picture Tone 3.
For example, if you have the newly released Pitch Perfect, in the 2nd chapter there is a girl called 'Baloney Barb' whose freckles pop with HDR but fade into subtlety when converting to SDR. At least that's been my experience.
What are your settings for the IM used on that title (and what is the title's metadata? What gamma do you have as a base?
Well, I'm not entirely sure because I was bowled over by the Lumagen when I first got it. Then I added madVR and ripped all my UHDs and over time found I just wasn't impressed as much anymore. I actually started wondering if my projector was losing contrast or something. Then a friend came over who had never seen 4k or HDR and wanted to see some comparisons. He wasn't impressed with 4k and neither was I. I have 4 different memories for tone mapping and kept switching between them trying to find the setting that would show off the HDR to no avail.
After he left I went bypassed the Lumagen tone mapping (sticking with true HDR mode on the RS4500) and was blown away - just like I used to be. So I will have to delve deeper into the settings I have but my impression is that color is just too compromised when converting to SDR.
Hows SDR looking if you calibrate a 2.5-2.6 gamma on the RS4500.?
That's an awfully high gamma for SDR. No matter the projector you're going to lose shadow detail.
That will depend on the max light output you calibrate to, you will flatten the curve out of black by the high gamma, but you will then ramp it up by elevating the peak light output, so ull get a more dynamic SDR image, but it calls for a good low level performance/ native on off contrast, if thats not surficiant it sure will look bad. But got the impression it should be capable of a decent light output.2.4
So i can try ask differently.. What SDR gamma are you guys running.'?
We watched Passengers tonight with the Panamorph Paladin DCR lens - about 44 foot lamberts on my screen - incredible detail I don't recall seeing before. Best A lens hands down I've ever had by a large margin ! My three guests ( regulars who came over this afternoon for the lens / no lens demo ) said keep the lens! It's like a giant flat panel at times now ! The added brightness and pixels brings out details in objects in movies you couldn't see before. Screen shots coming .
I'm at 701 hours now.
Although I'm sure you've watched many more movies than I have, I'm getting close to 900 hours (lots of time playing around...)
So i can try ask differently.. What SDR gamma are you guys running.'?
True as far as the extra pixels go adding more light, but you also gain more lumen output when using more zoom. So there is more light to be had with either method. The question remains, how much is the difference and does the anamorphic lens beat it out still. I have an ISCO anamorphic lens here. If I have time I'm going to take some measurements later.
Hmmm... maybe there could be another Paladin group buy price? :)
this place is getting out of my budget range big time!
15k for a lense and scaler omg! haha
enjoy the toys guys
Well, some people buy ski boats / sail boats / sports cars / airplanes or go on expensive cruises. Some people like home theater instead. I just got a wine catalog with 2005 Chateau Latour Bordeaux in it - $ 1099.00 a bottle. I can get you a DCR lens and Lumagen Radiance Pro for less than a case of that wine ! :)
Funny this apsect...
Just recently i was ask how much the Z1/RS4500 cost me, after telling him , his eyes bulged and he expressed absolute shock! ..( his reply ...Bl**dy hell, that much just for a HT projector!!)
The same person only just recentley purchased a pair of Tidal Speakers for $65K....but thats OK! ;)
Now that I've had more time to experiment with the DCR lens, I can say there is really no substitute.
$65K for speakers ? That's nuts - it's not like they are a laser projector or anything ! ::)
Just curious, did you ever use an ISCO III?
ISCO does make a 1.25x lens that's even larger and even higher quality than the 1.33x IIIL that I think would fit nicely with the RS4500. It's probably the only other alternative to the Panamorph you have now. However a brand new 1.25x ISCO is going to be a lot more expensive than the Panamorph. Though the IIIL is no slouch and is by far the nicest 1.33x anamorphic lens I've personally seen and I've seen just about all of them.
My guess is that it will work at that short of a throw. When using the ISCO IIIL, I could get almost to max zoom on my JVC (1.40) before vignetting started to occur. The 1.25x lens is quite a bit larger so I would imagine it could accommodate that short of a throw. Craig, I think you're not familiar with how large these ISCO lenses actually are. Schneider/ISCO claim a 25% increase in brightness through the 1.25x lens. ISCO also says the glass alone weighs 3500 grams (7.72 pounds) while the glass and housing together is 11 pounds. Compare this to the Panamorph lens at only 3.6 pounds including the stand. I'm not trying to diminish the DCR lens, I'm sure it's nice, but I don't think the lens quality itself is as good as the ISCO 1.25x. But then again the ISCO should be nicer as it MSRPs for over $17,000.
If you're looking to gain as much brightness as you can, I'm sure the DCR lens is better suited for the task compared to the ISCO 1.25x, but optical resolution through the ISCO is more than likely unmatched anywhere.
The resolution of the DCR lens is top notch. I priced that ISCO once and it was $17K. You bring one over and we can compare them. In the mean time, the Paladin DCR lens is best for using the full 4096 4K chip. Even JVC was impressed !
The resolution of the DCR lens is top notch. I priced that ISCO once and it was $17K. You bring one over and we can compare them. In the mean time, the Paladin DCR lens is best for using the full 4096 4K chip. Even JVC was impressed !
The design of it is ingenious to get the most brightness. I edited my post above to include some extra caveats. The price difference is large and I think it boils down to how much someone can afford but also what the person is looking to achieve with the added lens. Are you after the best resolution or the most brightness? Pick your poison.
The DCR is actually larger in width and almost as tall ( lens ) as the Schneider 1.25 lens. I Googled it. As for resolution, the DCR looks as sharp as no lens zooming. That's about all I can ask for.
6.5″ W x 5.7″ H x 4.13″ D
(165 x 145 x 105mm)
Craig, my intention isn't to start an argument. I'm only trying to say that I doubt Panamorph has found a way to achieve the same level of optical quality for about half the cost. Plus these two lenses are very different in the type of optics, amount of optical elements and what they're trying to achieve. So a direct comparison is a little difficult to do.
It's important to put price in perspective here. The ISCO 1.25x $17400 new and the Panamorph is around half the cost at $9000. So if Panamorph can get you to about 90% of the way there in optical resolution (what I'd say the difference was between the the DC1/UH480 and ISCO IIIL visually) at a considerable less amount of money, then they've done an excellent job. But I'm going to have a problem if someone wants to say there is "no" difference in optical quality between these two lenses.
Where are you looking at specs? Panamorph's site says for the DCR, including the housing is:
The newly designed Schenider/ISCO 1.25x lens (same optics but new housing) is:
186.5mm x 119mm deep x 188mm
The elements are extremely similar in size to the housing as the housing is minimal on the ISCO. They measure 150mm (input element) x similar depth x 168.5mm (exit element). So it seems the elements themselves on the ISCO still measure larger than Panamorph even when you factor in its housing. This is why I believe it could handle a 1.4x throw ratio without issue. The weight difference between these two lenses is also massive. Again, the optical elements alone weigh 3500 grams or 7.7 pounds. That's more than double what the Panamorph weighs with its lenses, housing and stand included. If the resolution capabilities of the DCR is similar to the UH480 and DC1 lenses I've had here in the past, I don't know if I'd say "sharpness" is the same between the ISCO and DCR. There was a noticeable difference between the ISCO IIIL and the UH480/DC1 and the ISCO 1.25x is supposedly a bit better than the IIIL. But I haven't had the opportunity to see the DCR against the 1.25x ISCO.
The $80k Loki gives you 8500 lumens though. So if you need a massive screen with relatively good image quality there may not be many alternatives for the price. I don't think price comparisons for projectors apply the same for stand-alone lenses. Projectors cost more or less (typically) if they're able to do something others can or cannot, ie cost more for more lumens, more contrast, higher resolution, ect.
I think it's a bold claim to imply you're getting the same amount of optical quality (or more as you imply) for a lot less money. This is especially so when there are people out there who can attest to the optical quality of ISCO/Schneider anamorphic lenses. For some perspective here, Panamorph's DC1 lens, which sold for roughly the same amount as the DCR lens you have, could not meet the optical quality of the ISCO IIIL. It could not delineate pixels as well across the whole image as well as the ISCO IIIL could. This is something I've personally seen. Given that information, and also knowing the DC1 was roughly the same amount of money as the DCR, why should I assume it could better the ISCO 1.25x lens that is better than the IIIL (according to many who've had both the IIIL and 1.25x ISCO)?
Given what I've said above I don't think there's a whole lot left to assumptions. ISCO/Schneider has a reputation and end-user reviews to attest to the quality of their optics. My personal experience using both ISCO and Panamorph lenses over the years tells me the same thing. If Panamorph wants to change my mind, I'd gladly review the lens if they think my assumptions are incorrect.
And yet, people with ISCO lenses say they don't look good with their RS4500's - at least one that i know of. We will never know unless you buy the $17K and hop a plane to Sacramento.
I saw the Loki on a massive screen. It had rainbows - it didn't look good.
In what way did the ISCO "not look good"? And which ISCO are we talking about?
If you had the RS4500 on a 20' wide screen you'd probably be saying the same thing. The $80K Loki gives you something the RS4500 cannot; lumens. Let's keep things in perspective here. The DCR lens can give you more lumens I'm sure, but I highly doubt the quality of the optics are as good as the ISCO. I've never once seen anyone make this claim before.
Ask him which ISCO - post 5250 - http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2514257-jvc-4k-native-laser-projector-confirm-175.html
DC1, ISCO, Schneider - those are all HE lenses, so not the same thing.
The RS4500 isn't made for a 20' wide screen IMO. The Loki was on a big screen. It's got a color wheel and a wobulated faux 4K DLP chip with no contrast. It's a really bright Optoma UHD65. ???
It's not worth arguing. JVC saw this in my theater and was very impressed. I did hours of comparing with and without the lens the other day - everyone at the demo said keep the lens. This is a unique VC lens only designed for use with 4096 x 2160 projectors. believe it, or don't believe it, or fly to Sacramento and see for yourself.
Funny this apsect...
Just recently i was ask how much the Z1/RS4500 cost me, after telling him , his eyes bulged and he expressed absolute shock! ..( his reply ...Bl**dy hell, that much just for a HT projector!!)
The same person only just recentley purchased a pair of Tidal Speakers for $65K....but thats OK! ;)
The only way to resolve this would be to do a direct comparison of the two. Trying to use price or weight as indicators here seems silly.
Now that is funny, because I can see spending for an RS4500 long before I could see myself sinking 65k into a pair of speakers. And most anybody that is into HT would view it the same way. Of course, anybody that was into 2-channel probably views it the same way he does. :)
Everyone has "their" hobby. What's the difference if I want to buy a nice car for $35000? People would not blink an eye if I were to spend my money on that. But if I were to spend that kind of cash on a projector they freak out. "What a waste of money" they'd say. I'd rather drive my Toyota Camry and have a home theater than have just a nice car that gets me to the same place as the Toyota would. Though I suppose you could say the same thing about the $300 LCD TV and it's built in speakers. For both of these luxury items it's about the experience/ride using them not what you get when finished using them. Both cars get you from point A to B and both displays/sound systems show you the same movie. But I'd say the home theater experience is dramatically better over the TV/built in speakers than the few times you get to accelerate fast in the sports car over the Toyota.
Agreed! I use my theater for hours a day and am in my car for as little time as possible. My wife and I have dedicated about half of our house to the theater ;0
I am thinking about getting into a 4500 (if a good deal is to be had) and I think I can get away with watching HDR content with the filter in play. I have a 110" 1.3 gain ST130 screen with a 15ish foot throw. If the numbers I have found are accurate then I would have...
2500 ish calibrated which with my screen gain and size would be around 90FL, and if I used the filter with a 40% drop I would be at about 1950 lumens with screen gain which would be about 55FL for HDR Movies.
That all sound about right?
I am thinking about getting into a 4500 (if a good deal is to be had) and I think I can get away with watching HDR content with the filter in play. I have a 110" 1.3 gain ST130 screen with a 15ish foot throw. If the numbers I have found are accurate then I would have...
2500 ish calibrated which with my screen gain and size would be around 90FL, and if I used the filter with a 40% drop I would be at about 1950 lumens with screen gain which would be about 55FL for HDR Movies.
That all sound about right?
With these super bright projectors, even with velvet on the walls, does your room light up? Seems like it might which could be distracting?
Thanks for the reply. What's the MSRP on the DCR?
So the Oppo 203 is still available but is going away soon. Is this the end all of be all of UHD blu ray players for this projector, or are there other good alternatives?
I think the upcoming Panasonic 820 is going to be the one to watch with its new tone mapping abilities.
With the Paladin DCR, how well is it doing at the minimum 1.4:1 throw? I need my project to be at approximately this distance due to my room layout. The screen will be 72" tall which is a 186" diagonal. So according to their specs, I'll have a 1" distortion around the edges that will need to go into a spill area?
With the Paladin DCR, how well is it doing at the minimum 1.4:1 throw? I need my project to be at approximately this distance due to my room layout. The screen will be 72" tall which is a 186" diagonal. So according to their specs, I'll have a 1" distortion around the edges that will need to go into a spill area?
It's working well enough that I don't notice the minor barrel distortion on the edge - certainly not compared to the increase in brightness.
That's a huge screen - the DCR lens would help you get as much brightness as possible.
Guys sharing this here as I don't won't to post 'wide' to the community. I've gotten further follow up regarding the next gen to the 4500. Exciting, but expensive stuff.. We're talking a native 8K panel this time. However hold on to your hats, its going to be circa $80K MSRP so don't get too excited! No further details at this stage, so who know right now what other changes will be made in this next generation. Expect all to be unveiled at IFA Berlin. Same goes for the lower series new models :D
Does not sound like a replacement. Sounds like a new model to compete against the VW5000.
Maybe we’ll see a revision to the 35k price point that gives 4,000 lumens?
Guys sharing this here as I don't won't to post 'wide' to the community. I've gotten further follow up regarding the next gen to the 4500. Exciting, but expensive stuff.. We're talking a native 8K panel this time. However hold on to your hats, its going to be circa $80K MSRP so don't get too excited! No further details at this stage, so who know right now what other changes will be made in this next generation. Expect all to be unveiled at IFA Berlin. Same goes for the lower series new models :D
I thought I heard the same thing. Its 4K + eshift. TI seems to be doing the same thing with their native 4K DMDs but adding their own "XPR" eshift solution.
Isn't the current RS4500 already 3k lumens?
Agree 100% that I find it hard to believe that this will have native 8k panels. I also don't think there will be another model that replaces the RS4500 directly for at least another year or 2.
I would think that there should be fairly big updates coming to the lower models and native 4k has to be at the forefront. Wouldn't be surprised to see maybe a the top tier a laser light source at a price point below the RS4500 that directly competes with the 885/760.
The JVC VS4700 is out which replaces the VS4500 with some slightly better contrast specs and a few other changes. Seems logical that this could translate to an RS4700 as well.
Improved native contrast, quieter operation would be most welcome in a newer model.
That's the 8K e shift projector for $120,000.00 ! At least that's the price I saw someone mention.
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL102494
Note that this is not a home theater projector either.
I'm not suggesting a direct translation, but there does seem to be a connection to the RS4500 as there was a VS4500...
This is just a VS4500 with eshift. Nothing more to see. Except a much higher price tag. Other than 8K eshift, it has the same specs as the VS4500.
VS4500
12,000:1 Contrast Ratio (typical) - 10,000:1(minimum)
VS4700
Contrast Ratio - >12,000:1 minimum
Bottom end contrast spec has gone up slightly.
That's the 8K e shift projector for $120,000.00 ! At least that's the price I saw someone mention.
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL102494
Note that this is not a home theater projector either.
Agree 100% that I find it hard to believe that this will have native 8k panels. I also don't think there will be another model that replaces the RS4500 directly for at least another year or 2.
I would think that there should be fairly big updates coming to the lower models and native 4k has to be at the forefront. Wouldn't be surprised to see maybe a the top tier a laser light source at a price point below the RS4500 that directly competes with the 885/760.
Who's taking bets? Hehe
I've got $20 on native 4K + eshift to get to a pseudo 8K image! :D
Though native 8K would be amazing too!
I don't believe it. I think Wolf is working on a home theater projector based on the RS4700, so an 8K eshift machine makes sense. And, I don't see any native 8K projectors in JVC's Visualization projector lineup. So native 8K would have to spring out of nowhere.
I'd love either!
At probably $ 120K, we would be glad to sell you one. In the mean time, I'll be watching my RS4500, which is selling for a fraction of that cost.
I don't believe it. I think Wolf is working on a home theater projector based on the RS4700, so an 8K eshift machine makes sense. And, I don't see any native 8K projectors in JVC's Visualization projector lineup. So native 8K would have to spring out of nowhere.
Solely based on the amount time it took them to finally introduce their first 4k native panel in the RS4500 I don't see them being the first to jump into native 8k?
I re-read his email to me again where he states he was told the Z2 will be 'native 8K',
Which makes the pricing of the "Z2" ( rumoured ;) ) understandable..
That is true, but owning an RS4500 the 4K panel and it's tack sharp clarity is one of it's greatest strong suits. Seems to me that jumping to a native 8K panel is having the buggy before the horse so to speak?
I would rather see a native 4K unit with increased contrast, more lumens and full P3 w/out the light loss than a native 8K unit. Unless you are sitting 5 feet form the screen I just don't see how going to 8K will really deliver much improvement over native 4K w top tier optics like the RS4500 has.
I have never personally seen 8K so maybe it will provide a "slap in the face" improvement but I am skeptical.
I don't see in any of the forums where people with native 4K units are clamoring for more pixels so it just seems like maybe more of a marketing ploy than a real technological advance?
That is true, but owning an RS4500 the 4K panel and it's tack sharp clarity is one of it's greatest strong suits. Seems to me that jumping to a native 8K panel is having the buggy before the horse so to speak?
I would rather see a native 4K unit with increased contrast, more lumens and full P3 w/out the light loss than a native 8K unit. Unless you are sitting 5 feet form the screen I just don't see how going to 8K will really deliver much improvement over native 4K w top tier optics like the RS4500 has.
I have never personally seen 8K so maybe it will provide a "slap in the face" improvement but I am skeptical.
I don't see in any of the forums where people with native 4K units are clamoring for more pixels so it just seems like maybe more of a marketing ploy than a real technological advance?
Can I say given we have zero info on what else the Z2 will bring to the table other than the quoted 8K native, there's not a lot of point right now in making 'I'd rather have' type statements. I agree though, 8K alone doesn't excite me much, especially with the price tag to match. I mean we'd be looking at upscaled 4K and HD content for years to come, its not like we're going to have matching content to really get the full advantage.
Just got my 3rd replacement Z1/RS4500 today.....Now i get to start from "0" hours again.. :D
Just got my 3rd replacement Z1/RS4500 today.....Now i get to start from "0" hours again.. :D
Just got my 3rd replacement Z1/RS4500 today.....Now i get to start from "0" hours again.. :D
Just got my 3rd replacement Z1/RS4500 today.....Now i get to start from "0" hours again.. :D
Is it me or is this convergence not great? Is a pixel either direction within spec?
Is it me or is this convergence not great? Is a pixel either direction within spec?
Is it me or is this convergence not great? Is a pixel either direction within spec?
What problems are you having?
Everything is speculation so it's just discussion and banter, don't see the big deal really.
My original Z1 was running the 1.22 ver Firmware... My Replacement is running 1.23ver .
1.23 isnt listed on the JVC website... anyone now what is different between the 2 firmwares?
One observation i have noticed , is the inbuilt Focus"/Zoom/Shift patterns are very different from ver 1.22.
Might be my imagination ( only got 6 hrs on it thus far) , but i swear the Dynamic dimming is also "different" ?
Well that’s very interesting. Maybe Mike or Craig can inquire?
I guess they have to feel somewhat comfortable with it if they are delivering new projectors with it...!
Well that’s very interesting. Maybe Mike or Craig can inquire?
Have the answer on the new firmware.
1. Max CLL and FALL data now displays on info page.
2. Improves reading of HLG flag.
Ahh, makes sense - we've seen screenshots of other JVC projectors that show the Max CLL and FALL data on the info page.
HLG won't make any difference to me, but it's good that JVC improved it.
Thanks for sharing. I'm still loving my RS4500. I'm up to 940 hours (just reached my 1 year anniversary). I'm enjoying it with Netflix, Amazon and YouTube streaming, my movie server (1841 HD movies, 270 UHD movies and a ton of other content).
I also now have a date with Chad B. My projector had already been calibrated and now that I have the Lumagen I'm not sure this is really needed but I'm damn curious about his custom HDR gamma curves...
Have Z1/RS4500 users kept tabs on the light output since new?
This is just a curiosity... 8)
My original unit had 700 hrs on it before my replacement arrived. Over the 700hrs i had "Zero" loss in brightness from new.. :) This is using "High" laser for HDR and "Med" laser for SDR.
What are other users finding.
I passed 800 hours on my RS4500 last night, watching Annihilation !
That's an amazing looking movie!
I liked it better than "Arrival", but still think it's a one time view for me. "The Shimmer" was a pretty cool concept and Natalie Portman did a nice job.
I'm betting that there won't be any new projectors this year under $35K that will make me want to replace my RS4500, especially now that I have the Lumagen radiance Pro and Panamorph Paladin DCR lens.
I am almost certain of this. With the advent of micro LED I am not sure how much R & D monies are being invested into front projection?
I am almost certain of this. With the advent of micro LED I am not sure how much R & D monies are being invested into front projection?
Will be several years before microLED threatens the under 30k projector market.
Will be several years before microLED threatens the under 30k projector market.
I agree, but that was not my point. My point is I do not see R&D budgets for front projection getting larger, rather the opposite. I don't think the technologies for residential home cinema are going to change very much from what they revolve around now. I am pretty sure we will see the laser offerings increase slightly but that is about it. I can see in a another year at CEDIA 2019 Sony releasing the first 8k projector and marketing the hell out of that as they did when they were first into the 4K market.
Saw this post by Kris over at the mad house today and thought I'd share it here as it really is a badge for the RS4500 being such a great projector as we all know. I am sure he won't mind sharing it here and it's a response to someone in a comparison thread for the Sony 885:
"The same way you do for any other projector. But of course now we hear that doesn't apply to this projector because it is "special"? Please. You apply the same standards to this as you do any other Sony, JVC, Epson, or whatever. There is no special way to dim this projector compared to others, but the only way to dim it is to turn the laser down, which also lowers contrast.
People on here seem to think that some kind of magic or vudu applies to this projector that doesn't apply to others. And that the magic of Reality Creation fixes all. It doesn't. It is a crutch that should NOT be needed. The JVC 4500 doesn't have any processing that matches it BECAUSE IT DOESN'T NEED IT. The two images when compared objectively aren't even close, RC or not. With all the of the "enhancements" bypassed on the 4500 it delivers reference level results with all the tests you throw at it. Pristine results with uniformity, single pixel patterns, all of it. I just did this all a week ago with the head of Lumagen and Dave Abrahms, who used to work extensively with Joe Kane and is one of the top calibrators working in Hollywood today. They all saw the exact same thing and couldn't believe how much of a difference the two were with testing. Dave was EXTREMELY skeptical about both projectors going in and left saying that the 4500 produced the best image he'd seen from a digital projector short of the Dolby projector used in Dolby Cinema. Dave and I spent well over an hour pouring through Sony software and the menus trying to undo all the issues we were seeing, just in case there was some stone left unturned, because Dave was so surprised at all the problems we were seeing.
Everyone agrees that the 885ES throws a great image. It absolutely DESTROYED the $20K DPI projector I also worked on while down in LA. But some here are literally making it out like some mystical unicorn and completely ignore just about every objective test thrown at it and they try and make out those that have actually measured MULTIPLE units and came to the same conclusion as some kind of mob that is out to destroy it. It is some of the most vial bias I've ever seen. I'm thrilled that so many are happy with this projector, it is in the top ranks for sure. But that doesn't mean that you have to vehemently attack any truths about its objective performance and limitations. If they are not addressed Sony has no incentive to fix them and potential buyers are misinformed about issues that they may be sensitive to."
I went to my local AMC cinema last week for the first time in almost two years and I was so surprised at how much better the image is in my home cinema w/ an RS4500. The image in the theater was so washed out and dim that I had a hard time trying to enjoy the film with my kids.
What is the mad house? AVSForum?
I went to see Annihlation some months ago in my local theater, which has very nice (reserve your seat) chairs and a decent size screen but was very disappointed in the picture quality. It was as you described - washed out and dim.
I was then dragged back to see the latest Ant-man film. I wanted to wait for UHD for picture quality reasons but this time I was completely blown away by the image. It was sharp, bright with fantastic contrast and detail. It's the first time I've seen something that rivaled my 4500 let alone blow it away. They must have upgraded to something nice...
I waited until the movie was over to point it out to my wife, so as not to ruin it for her. I was correct, my wife did not even notice it.
Wife and I went to watch Equalizer 2 last night at the local theater. Image and sound was not bad, except for one very glaring problem that drove me crazy. There was an exit door on the side wall, very close to the screen. The bright red exit sign bathed the left side of the image with a red glow and washed out darker scenes. I waited until the movie was over to point it out to my wife, so as not to ruin it for her. I was correct, my wife did not even notice it.
You actually still go to a commercial movie theater - how quaint ! I'll wait for the 4K Blu-ray - it's already in my Amazon wish list.
In general, that's what I do as well. What I save in going to the theater will generally pay for most of the Blu-ray purchase.
I did find out, though, that the only Dolby Cinema in North Carolina is only a half hour from me. I've gone there a couple of times (Black Panther was one), just out of curiosity.
The picture quality was pretty good, and they had proper light control to facilitate black levels. To be honest, though, I still think my lowly RS400 provided better sharpness, and as good or better visual impact overall.
The audio was also decent, but I still prefer my home theater.
You actually still go to a commercial movie theater - how quaint ! I'll wait for the 4K Blu-ray - it's already in my Amazon wish list.
Did it to get out of the house. First day, after dropping Adam (our youngest) off for college.
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but why don't the laser projectors use a dynamic iris? I understand that dynamic laser is nice, but seems like that could be combined with DI for increased contrast ratio in some situations.
Looks like the new VW870 stole my brilliant idea :)
It's an interesting prospect, but utilizing both to boost contrast still has the same limitations as just using one. You're still limited to how much contrast you can multiply before you get issues with gamma, color shifts and clipped whites. It's often been incorrectly mentioned that a laser is faster than a physical iris and while that may be true of the one that Sony typically uses, that's not an absolute truth as there are physical irises out there than close fully and then open fully within a single from one another (and also go to any one of hundreds of positions in between). You can also make a physical iris fully close for a true fade to black. Mitsubishi did this with their HC7900d and HC8000d. So I don't see any inherent benefits of a laser being used for contrast enhancement compared to a physical iris. JVC uses a clever approach that may work similarly to what Sony may be doing with this new dual contrast enhancing system. The higher end JVCs use an extra iris mechanism at the light source too, which means less light enters the light engine which means you can control scatter more and how much light leaves the lens easier, thus increasing contrast over just a lens iris. This may be what Sony intends on doing to boost contrast a bit more. We'll see.
That's a pretty rare thing. The faulty ones usually show themselves fairly early on. I haven't heard of anyone complaining about an iris getting progressively louder over time. Either way i don't see anything inherently better from a picture quality standpoint that can't also be done with physical irises. A lens iris, creating an aperture, can do things laser dimming can't do. So maybe the key is to have both and maybe thats what Sony is trying to do.
I don’t have the 4500 but I have an rs600 with the 820
Firstly the thing is amazing. The tone mapping is OUTSTANDING. I watched fantastic beasts last night and never was able to see the corduroy on credence jacket when he was talking to the other guy (Colin something or other) in the alley
Anyhow...
I am using sdr2020 with the hdr enhance to on. And +6 on the slider
Everything else at zero. Just an amazing picture.
I've been very impressed with the 820 tone mapping as well. As great of a job Chad did with my custom Arve curves, the 820 just has a better ability.
Arrow, Craig or Mike. Have any of you received confirmation form JVC that the RS4500 will be receiving the tone mapping feature via firmware update?
A Panasonic UB820 is a relatively cheap way to add similar tone mapping capabilities. Other alternatives are MadVR (relatively cheap too) or a Lumagen. All of these options have their Pros and Cons.
Interesting since Chad is coming out in early Nov. to calibrate my HT.
What settings on the UB820 do you use?
Arrow, Craig or Mike. Have any of you received confirmation form JVC that the RS4500 will be receiving the tone mapping feature via firmware update?
Probably no. :(
Mike, did they state why? They seemed pretty confident this would happen..
If it could be done purely with software, I think they would do it, but I think there may be more involved. Hopefully I can find out more in the next few weeks.
I use my projector a lot for computer use and I think I know what you are talking about with micro flicker. It is particularly noticeable with solid colors because there should be zero flicker with a solid unchanging graphic.
I went and saw the local IMAX on their new laser projector, granted that is an entirely different tech. Resolution was horrible compared to the previous film projector that they had, but the 100% lack of any flicker was really nice.
How does it look ?
I have only watched Jurassic Park Falling Kingdom and Sicario 2 using it's SDR 2020 conversion and tone mapping, but those titles looked unbelievable. Now I need to A/B without the SDR flag being sent to the projector and see what kind of differences i see, but I can clearly see more highlights using the SDR 2020 conversion and tone mapping. The overall picture seems brighter in general, but I want to see if I notice any lack of color saturation. I feel as though I am seeing more shadow detail now than I ever have before.
Chad B is coming out on the 28th so I am looking forward to him getting his hands on it and see what he can dial up.
What have you been using / watching with ? I'm still watching HDR using Chad's Arve Tool custom HDR curve. Looks outstanding to me. Enough so that I have very little motivation to try something else !
Does the UB820 support HDR on both Netflix and Amazon's streaming services?
I had also reached out to JVC pro about the potential of the RS4500 receiving the auto tone mapping function that the new bulb based projectors have and was told that it was being looked into.
As good as Chad's Arve curves are (I've used several he did for me) and he is a master with the tool, but the Panasonic 820 takes HDR/tone mapping up a notch. What I see on my RS440 is just a more natural rendering of HDR on the disc. More natural looking specular highlights (less clipping) and less occasional "hotness" or over-brightness I would see with the Arve curves at times. I even learned how to use the Arve tool rather well to tweak things a bit more in attempt to alleviate some of the issues I was seeing for a few specific discs in particular that just looked off to me (King Kong on UHD BD for example. I felt like I needed a separate Arve curve for this title to look right where as it looks fine on the 820). All of that is now gone with the 820. I don't see any oddities any longer or so far at least.
Kris also mentioned the Arve had some color issues which are not existent on the 820.
I highly recommend the 820.
@AVSCraig have you had any further updates from JVC regarding this potential upgrade for the Z1/RS4500?
What's Chad's take on the RS4500. I'm sure he's calibrated pretty much every display under the sun. Is he impressed with the performance?
I believe he said this was the 6th or 7th rs4500 he’s calibrated. He thinks they are difficult to calibrate b/c of sync times and some other quirks which make the process more tedious but that it throws an amazing image. He calibrated 4 picture modes for me. SDR for 1080p, HDR using mid laser, HDR using high laser and an SDR 2020 for the ub820. He measured 100nits for HDR with mid laser and 139nits with high laser.
Has anyone tried, or done any A/B using the panny ub820 sending HDR w/ tone mapping versus SDR 2020 w/ tone mapping to their RS4500?
If I recall properly, Kris recommended against that. The reason being is it's probably not a good idea to overlay two tone maps at once.
If I recall properly, Kris recommended against that. The reason being is it's probably not a good idea to overlay two tone maps at once.
I think he meant UB820 HDR tone mapping vs SDR 2020. But you are definitely correct, you do not want to do SDR 2020 tone mapping.
I cannot think of any reason at all to recommend using HDR with optimizer from a UB820 with this projector or any other. The ONLY mode mode I recommend for projector use is SDR2020. This should provide the best HDR performance with this or any other projector vs their standard HDR implementation. I would also recommend this over any Arve curve as well, since that is a single or at best dual tone map solution that is trying to find a one size fits all solution for all HDR inputs. I would recommend using an Arve curve for sources like ATV4K though, or any other streaming input. But for disc playback, SDR2020 from MadVR, Radiance Pro or Panasonic UB820/9000 all day long over any other solutions for disc playback.
Kris, not sure if you've been following the madVR thread on the other forum or not, but madshi has created a tool that allows you to scan your UHD Blu-ray and create a file that will calculate the proper tone-map per scene ahead of time. The file creates data on a frame by frame basis to dynamically adjust the tone map for optimal results. Before this tool, as I'm sure you're aware, you could do something similar in real time but on the rare occasion you could see some luminance fluctuations within a scene, this tool supposedly fixes that issue. It does take about 15 to 20 minutes (depending on how fast your graphics card is) to render this file, but it's worth it to squeeze out that extra nth of performance this method offers.
I cannot think of any reason at all to recommend using HDR with optimizer from a UB820 with this projector or any other. The ONLY mode mode I recommend for projector use is SDR2020. This should provide the best HDR performance with this or any other projector vs their standard HDR implementation. I would also recommend this over any Arve curve as well, since that is a single or at best dual tone map solution that is trying to find a one size fits all solution for all HDR inputs. I would recommend using an Arve curve for sources like ATV4K though, or any other streaming input. But for disc playback, SDR2020 from MadVR, Radiance Pro or Panasonic UB820/9000 all day long over any other solutions for disc playback.
Is there any movie in particular you'd like the file for? I've only done a couple movies thus far. Let me know what requests you have and I'll try and provide the file for you,
It would be cool if something like this could be done for dynamic contrast systems too. When you think about it, most LCD based TVs and higher end projectors use some form of dynamic contrast. So the market is saturated with them. If there was some sort of standardized software that a dynamic contrast system could read, we could do the same thing here to avoid pumping and gamma shifts. The studios themselves could provide the file. I suppose it's too little too late on that one.
Kris, or anyone else I recently had my RS4500 calibrated and had an SDR2020 setting made calibrated through the UB820 to utilize it's tone mapping. the picture is phenomenal but I am noticing that is some low apl scenes that have a lot red in them the red at times looks like it's slightly blown out or I can see, for lack of a better description, noise in it. Any idea what could be causing it? If there is red in an outdoor scene w/ lots of ambient lighting it's not there only in dark scenes w/ lots of red tones in them. It's got me scratching my head?
How was the mode calibrated? Do you have a LUT box like a Radiance? What color profile in the projector is being used? (BT2020 or HDR).
Can you tell me the titles you're seeing this and time stamps? I don't have a 4500 here but I have a Panasonic player and can test it with the same title/scene to see if it is player related.
What you're talking about is the reason that Dolby Vision (or to a lesser degree HDR10+) would be such a huge game changer for projection. Without even getting into dynamic tone mapping, the metadata would be able to tell the projector exactly what to do with a dynamic iris/laser on a scene by scene basis, eliminating pumping and weird gamma issues.
As for files, any and all that you have are appreciated. Even if the data is simply a text file with the info about the movie. I've heard there is going to be an update soon that will compute the Fall numbers without taking the bars into account for scope films, that should be an improvement too. But for now, I just really need the display max (or 99.9% value for measured MaxCLL) and the avg and measured MaxFall data.
Chad B calibrated it for me, not sure exactly what he uses to be honest. I saw it last weekend watching Hotel Artemis. It's loaded with instances from start to finish.
I attached a log from Chad's calibration. he uses 7500K to color from for HDR he said and created a custom 2020 profile so to not engage the color filter I believe.
I've seen some content that has red noise when you're watching a movie that has high saturation levels in red. I have a Sony test clip for HDR that is really noticeable for this. I don't have Hotel Artemis to test though, so can't help there. Just for testing purposes though, try the scene with the HDR color profile and the BT2020 profile. I know they aren't calibrated, but it will be interesting to see if they change anything. It would tell you if it is a problem with the player, the profile Chad created or a limitation of the lower saturation.
Weird. I haven't noticed anything. I also had a long talk with Chris Heinnonen who did a deep dive and he was talking about how great the chroma rang out in his testing. I don't have a 820 at the house anymore, but I have the 9000, which uses the same processing. I will look at it again. Maybe something got messed up in a firmware update.
for this test 422 is fine, and dont know about the new Lumagen, i know the older ones make a bit of a mess with 444 in.
S&M chroma multiburst its a 1080P pattern, its the fast and dirty test it will mostly slap it right in you face no matter if its a 1080P or UHD videochain, look at the right side of the pattern the high resolution squares, see if they hold same output as the others, they can both peak or roleoff, both is wrong, the 2 big vertical bars on the left is where ringing is first noticed in between the red and blue bar, heavy ringing like the panasonic can be seen on the end of all the vertical lines, and if you change the chroma sharpness setting to -6 you will see the ringing is mostly gone, a bit left on the big vertical bars, and the 2 high resolution squares on the right side is now compleetly dark.
Panasonic is beating the drum on the multitap upsampling wich they ilustrate with a faint chroma zone plate, that zone plate would not be visible at all if they had not manipulated/ enhanced the chroma. So in the end the OPPO is handeling chroma much better, it dont seem to do anything wrong. Just that OPPO tonemapping is defective and will never be fixed, so out it goes if you need good tonemapping.
If you have a Lumagen and dont need the tonemapping i would try a XBOX One S its cheap. you might even have one somewhere in the house.
If you have a Lumagen and dont need the tonemapping i would try a XBOX One S its cheap. you might even have one somewhere in the house.
I've seen some content that has red noise when you're watching a movie that has high saturation levels in red. I have a Sony test clip for HDR that is really noticeable for this. I don't have Hotel Artemis to test though, so can't help there. Just for testing purposes though, try the scene with the HDR color profile and the BT2020 profile. I know they aren't calibrated, but it will be interesting to see if they change anything. It would tell you if it is a problem with the player, the profile Chad created or a limitation of the lower saturation.
stridsvognen,
Does that chroma issue just affect UHD, but also BD 1080p? Funny as I just looked at the Spears test disc recently comparing 4K upscaled BD to native 1080p on my RS440 but didn't look for this specific issue. But, I found the native 1080p patterns looking better in general versus 4K upscaling (but we're talking an eshift projector here).
Be that as it may, Blu-rays look sharper / better on my RS4500 using the UB900 vs the Oppo 203. So much so, I sold the Oppo some time ago. I don't see ringing in actual video. And I don't sit around watching test patterns.
Checked this tonight. If I use the test pattern on the S&M disc with the Panasonic UB900 it does add obvious ringing to the stripes on the left side. If you take chroma sharpness down you can eliminate the ringing, but it destroys the chroma resolution in the upper frequencies.
If I tried the Oppo 205 it was fine. I fed this through my Radiance Pro (4:2:2 out of the Oppo and out the Lumagen, as per Lumagen's recommend setup) and no issues at all. Resolution patterns looked fine and no ringing.
It has equal effect on 1080P and UHD, i set chroma sharpness to -4 with all content. But with 1080P upscaled to UHD it also adds luma ringing, so there you also need to take the luma sharpness down on both settings. I know there has been some recomendation to set edge correction to 1 for BD to UHD upscaling, however that just remove some ringing and introduce another.
If playing with the S&M chroma multiburst you should start checking straight out of the player to the display, no processing if possible, so eshift off, and go turn things on off and adjust see how it behaves. Just be carefull not to put to much attention to 1 specifik pattern, use multiple patterns to make sure you dont introduce distortion or artifacts in other type of content.
I would also think the XBOX, OPPO or Pioneer would be the best BD/UHD player to feed a Lumagen, would be interesting if you could share the Lumagen Pro chroma loss, if its identical to the previous models or different, if it have game mode, try flip that on off with the S&M chroma multiburst, and ill think you see some Panasonic effect, on the older Lumagen it boosts chroma and adds a slight ringing with game mode on.
I prefer 422 in 422 out game mode off and accept the moderate chroma loss in my Lumagen processors.
I can imagine that the -4 chroma sharpness with the Panasonic, adding some chroma loss in the player plus whats in the Lumagen will be a bit dull to look at.
The new Radiance doesn't have a game mode, but there is no issue with ringing. I'm fine with the limitation of 4:2:2 though, reduces bandwidth requirements, enables 12 bit to the display and all the other benefits I'm getting from the Radiance (LUT calibrations for SDR and HDR, tone mapping, scaling, etc.).
As Kris mentioned before, at this point in time, you really need proper tone mapping to get a great looking image from UHD Blu-ray on a projector. I suspect the Lumagen Pro is out of reach for most people. A very cheap (relatively) solution would be to use madVR for UHD blu-rays. You could piece together a PC powerful enough for around $500-$600. I suspect the chroma upscaling (and resolution upscaling) that madVR uses is better than what can be found on the Lumagen Pro. madVR has the unfair advantage of having a much more powerful processing solution than what is inside the Lumagen. If I lived closer to Kris I'd invite myself over and we could do a little shootout. :)
If there was enough interest, I'd be more than happy to build HTPCs for people who've never done it before.
Chad B calibrated it for me, not sure exactly what he uses to be honest. I saw it last weekend watching Hotel Artemis. It's loaded with instances from start to finish.
I attached a log from Chad's calibration. he uses 7500K to color from for HDR he said and created a custom 2020 profile so to not engage the color filter I believe.
Hotel Artemis is a 4K movie but it is not HDR or 2020 color. So you’re artifacts are probably due to using the wrong picture setup with this disc. Just FYI.
Like the " Brawl in Cell Block 99 " 4K Blu-ray ? Interesting.
Correct. I still do have the Artemis 4K release, but I saw someone did the dump on the disc info and it is 4K 709 non-HDR. So if you were using a mode you had setup for HDR, it should obviously look really weird (from not only the gamma but the wider color gamut).
Correct. I still do have the Artemis 4K release, but I saw someone did the dump on the disc info and it is 4K 709 non-HDR. So if you were using a mode you had setup for HDR, it should obviously look really weird (from not only the gamma but the wider color gamut).
As Kris mentioned before, at this point in time, you really need proper tone mapping to get a great looking image from UHD Blu-ray on a projector. I suspect the Lumagen Pro is out of reach for most people. A very cheap (relatively) solution would be to use madVR for UHD blu-rays. You could piece together a PC powerful enough for around $500-$600. I suspect the chroma upscaling (and resolution upscaling) that madVR uses is better than what can be found on the Lumagen Pro. madVR has the unfair advantage of having a much more powerful processing solution than what is inside the Lumagen. If I lived closer to Kris I'd invite myself over and we could do a little shootout. :)
If there was enough interest, I'd be more than happy to build HTPCs for people who've never done it before.
Went back and viewed a few scenes of Hotel Artemis and changed some of the gamma settings and color profiles and the noise I was seeing appears to be related to the very high saturation of this particular film as you mention above. There is a scene in the beginning when Jodie Foster answers a phone sitting up in her bed with a lamp on next to her and the whole scene is low APL w/ lots of red tones. When I switched from Chad's custom gamma to HDR the reds still looked over saturated, but a lot of the shadow detail was gone. In the scene part of Jodie Foster's bed is in the bottom left corner and when I switched out of the custom gamma to the HDR gamma the pattern on her bed cover completely disappears and the entire scene gets significantly darker. It's a testament to Chad's abilities as a calibrator when you A/B the work he does for you.
Kris thanks for your help and you can buy Hotel Artemis UHD copy on amazon for $21.00, it seems as though it's loaded with torture material. It's not a bad movie either if you like John Wick type plot lines.
Are you sure that Hotel Aremis is in HDR? I thought I'd read that it wasn't.
Edit: reading through the thread I see this was already addressed, sorry.
Just for fun & curiosity, what's everyone's hour meter at? I'm at 1200...
I don't understand the love for MadVR. When you use an HTPC running MadVR you get a constant dropping of frames because video cards can't do the exact frame rate necessary for 24 fps. It's soooo annoying.
He's not getting dropped frames because the cards can't do "exact frame rate". It can and most GPUs are better at this than hardware players from the likes of Oppo and Panasonic. He's getting dropped frames because the GPU being used isn't fast enough to work with the settings being used. It's not madVR's fault.
Just tried madVR 92.17 and turned tone mapping on... it's converting to 709... I was expecting 2020.
Just for fun & curiosity, what's everyone's hour meter at? I'm at 1200...
Well, two things come to mind,
1) I hate that I've burned more hours than you given you've had yours longer.
2) It seems we have more in common than the same projector.
:)
Just when I think my RS4500 can't throw a picture that looks any better, it does. I will say that the scenes I looked at last night with the Lumagen Dynamic Tone Mapping - several in Passengers, and Oblivion - including the dark interrogation scenes with Morgan Freeman in the dark - looked profoundly better to me than without the HDR tone mapping.
I'm still surprised how much my RS4500 has evolved over 2 years, with the firmware updates, the Panamorph DCR lens, the Lumagen Radiance Pro and now dynamic HDR tone mapping. It's like having a new and improved projector ! Now if I can get Kris Deering here to recalibrate it, it should take another step up picture wise yet again ! :D
(https://i.imgur.com/SzNAod6.png)
Hey Craig,
I think from what you have posted that your H/T with the 4500 and it's other video additions is without doubt "Awesome".
Congratulations on such an amazing video system.
Terry
Watched " Overlord " again last night with friends. Fun movie. But also top tier demo material on the RS4500. The movie looks ( and sounds ) amazing on this projector. A few gory parts might look a bit too realistic for some people ! ::)Totally agree Craig. Excellent presentation and an entertaining movie.
Totally agree Craig. Excellent presentation and an entertaining movie.I swear that movie will break speakers / subwoofers if you aren't careful though !!:-[ The first 10 or 15 minutes really work out the subs for sure !
I swear that movie will break speakers / subwoofers if you aren't careful though !!:-[ The first 10 or 15 minutes really work out the subs for sure !Try Ready Player One. It is quite the sub workout. :)
For those thinking the 4500 would be replaced this fall, I think JVC may have given us a clue. JVC has announced that they are doing another firmware update, adding new features to the RS4500. The 4500 will be getting the new auto tone mapping, the two Panasonic profiles and about 30 new screen codes. I think if JVC was going to bring out a replacement, they would not be adding new features to an end of life model. :)Interesting. The firmware update will be welcome. I suppose the notion of no replacement will also be welcome to those who want to get maximum value out of their investment, but it might be disappointing news to those who really want to see this machine with higher contrast.
Interesting. The firmware update will be welcome. I suppose the notion of no replacement will also be welcome to those who want to get maximum value out of their investment, but it might be disappointing news to those who really want to see this machine with higher contrast.I doubt that would happen with the RS4500, since it has never been a JVC issue.
Speaking of contrast, is there any chance this unit suffers from panel degradation the way some Sony models do? I swear my contrast is getting worse, but I can't measure contrast so it could just be my imagination.
Interesting. The firmware update will be welcome. I suppose the notion of no replacement will also be welcome to those who want to get maximum value out of their investment, but it might be disappointing news to those who really want to see this machine with higher contrast.Having owned a VW600 that I'm 99% sure had the dreaded contrast degradation issue, I can say my RS4500 doesn't appear to have changed at all contrast wise.
Speaking of contrast, is there any chance this unit suffers from panel degradation the way some Sony models do? I swear my contrast is getting worse, but I can't measure contrast so it could just be my imagination.
Try Ready Player One. It is quite the sub workout. :)Love that movie - the car race / Godzilla scenes shake the room for one ! :)
For those thinking the 4500 would be replaced this fall, I think JVC may have given us a clue. JVC has announced that they are doing another firmware update, adding new features to the RS4500. The 4500 will be getting the new auto tone mapping, the two Panasonic profiles and about 30 new screen codes. I think if JVC was going to bring out a replacement, they would not be adding new features to an end of life model. :)Mike,
Mike,
I just saw over on AVS you posted this on a thread there.
I will be without doubt even more of a Happy Camper when that takes place.
How would a current JVC RS4500 owner know that JVC actually did those New Up-Dates to the Firmware ???
And how would a Novice/Dummy like me know how to get those Firmware Up-Dates loaded to the RS4500 ???
I think in my case it would be making an additional appointment with Chad B ???
Terry
Craig,
You would need to download the new firmware to your computer,and then load it on a thumbdrive. Then follow the instructions to install it.
Mike,You download the firmware update onto a FAT32 configured USB stick. With the download come instructions on how to perform the download, pretty simple. Then it comes down to how you configure the projector. The auto tone mapping should be better for HDR, as long as the source has the setup data. You could use one of the curves, but the second one uses the DCI filter in the projector and that costs you too much light, so I doubt you want to use it. As for where to get the firmware. Will be here, once available.
I just saw over on AVS you posted this on a thread there.
I will be without doubt even more of a Happy Camper when that takes place.
How would a current JVC RS4500 owner know that JVC actually did those New Up-Dates to the Firmware ???
And how would a Novice/Dummy like me know how to get those Firmware Up-Dates loaded to the RS4500 ???
I think in my case it would be making an additional appointment with Chad B ???
Terry
You download the firmware update onto a FAT32 configured USB stick. With the download come instructions on how to perform the download, pretty simple. Then it comes down to how you configure the projector. The auto tone mapping should be better for HDR, as long as the source has the setup data. You could use one of the curves, but the second one uses the DCI filter in the projector and that costs you too much light, so I doubt you want to use it. As for where to get the firmware. Will be here, once available.
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/software_dow.jsp?model_id=MDL102459&feature_id=17
(http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/software_dow.jsp?model_id=MDL102459&feature_id=17)Thanks Mike for the information as always.
It seems unless I read where it would be some really noticable to me difference.
I'll more than likely leave well enough alone.
Sometimes if everything is working and working to one's total satisfaction leave well enough alone.
I'm very-very HAPPY :) with my current H/T and it's operation so I probably will not add the New Firmware.
Thanks again,
Terry
I haven't been following along. What does the new firmware update add to the Lumagen?See the post Kris just made in the Lumagen thread. :)
Jumping in w/ the Lumagen DCR combo and having system calibrated by Craig Rounds next week! Can't wait to see the improvements to the already stellar picture the RS4500 throws.
Lumagen 4446 is locked and loaded in the rack and Craig Rounds is in route w/ the DCR lens and calibration equipment. Should be a fun 2 days. Can't wait to see the end results!If you are short screws, you should install in the bottom holes, that way you are not bending the ears on the Lumagen, because the top two will be pushing into the rack frame. Where as the bottom two are trying to pull away from the rack frame.
If you are short screws, you should install in the bottom holes, that way you are not bending the ears on the Lumagen, because the top two will be pushing into the rack frame. Where as the bottom two are trying to pull away from the rack frame.I took the picture before I installed the last two screws. I got a little antsy! Thanks for the information however.
Added
You will love the combination of the Lumagen and DCR lens. Will take your system to the next level.
I took the picture before I installed the last two screws. I got a little antsy! Thanks for the information however.
Kris did a phenomenal job calibrating my Lumagen / RS4500. More impressions after I watch some more stuff. Starting with Alita:Battle Angel tonight !That is my next film to view as well! I am so happy with the results of the Lumagen/DCR lens. The added depth to the image is just amazing! Very impressed at how the Lumagen handled the scene in Mad Max Fury Road where they drive into the dust storm. Even my wife noticed a distinct improvement in the image our RS4500 now throws.
That is my next film to view as well! I am so happy with the results of the Lumagen/DCR lens. The added depth to the image is just amazing! Very impressed at how the Lumagen handled the scene in Mad Max Fury Road where they drive into the dust storm. Even my wife noticed a distinct improvement in the image our RS4500 now throws.
I had a few friends over last month to watch Shazam. Pretty good movie. Image quality was excellent too! I'm sure Kris did a great job setting the projector up.
The beginning of Shazam is very dark, but it looks great on my projector. I haven't re-watched " Solo " or some of the underwater scenes in " Deepwatter Horizon ", but I'd guess they will look much better now too ( they looked good before ). Too many movies, not enough time !Craig are you still using laser dimming?
Craig are you still using laser dimming?I use Mode 1 dimming. Kris mentioned he uses Mode 2, but I tried it again and it's too aggressive. Mode 1 works well on my sized screen is is almost entirely invisible. I do turn it off for " Get Out " on 4K - there is one scene ( the dark place ) that trips it up. That's about it.
I use Mode 1 dimming. Kris mentioned he uses Mode 2, but I tried it again and it's too aggressive. Mode 1 works well on my sized screen is is almost entirely invisible. I do turn it off for " Get Out " on 4K - there is one scene ( the dark place ) that trips it up. That's about it.Thanks for the info. I have it disabled right now so I was wondering what others were using whom also have the Lumagen RS4500 combo.
Watched " Alita : Battle Angel " on 4K again last night with the latest Lumagen firmware. Everyone agreed that very dark scenes look outstanding, and there was a consensus that the picture looks much better now that Kris has calibrated it with the Lumagen in the mix !
Thanks for the info. I have it disabled right now so I was wondering what others were using whom also have the Lumagen RS4500 combo.
Mode 1 gives a slight boost to contrast with very little visible artifacts. Mode 2 gives a significant boost to contrast performance and will also go to a full black with a scene that blacks out. But it can also be very aggressive with a very dark image that has very little white in it. You'll mostly see this with small white credits on a black background, but it is pretty rare outside of credits and titles.We need to talk to JVC about a Mode 1.5 !
Mode 1 gives a slight boost to contrast with very little visible artifacts. Mode 2 gives a significant boost to contrast performance and will also go to a full black with a scene that blacks out. But it can also be very aggressive with a very dark image that has very little white in it. You'll mostly see this with small white credits on a black background, but it is pretty rare outside of credits and titles.I primarily use Mode 2......i can live with the rare instances that it does become a little to agressive due to its overall performance verus Mode 1. :)
Mode 1 gives a slight boost to contrast with very little visible artifacts. Mode 2 gives a significant boost to contrast performance and will also go to a full black with a scene that blacks out. But it can also be very aggressive with a very dark image that has very little white in it. You'll mostly see this with small white credits on a black background, but it is pretty rare outside of credits and titles.I always used mode 2 as well, but Craig disabled them when he did my calibrations and was wondering what others with the Lumagen in the chain were using before I turned it back on. Thanks for the input!
I always used mode 2 as well, but Craig disabled them when he did my calibrations and was wondering what others with the Lumagen in the chain were using before I turned it back on. Thanks for the input!
Alita on 4K might be some of the best demo material on my RS4500 yet !Loved this movie and it's definitely demo worthy. Craig did you and Kris get any Nit measurements?
Loved this movie and it's definitely demo worthy. Craig did you and Kris get any Nit measurements?I loved it too, and Tweeting these screen shots got the attention on Twitter of the " Alita Army " - we aren't the only ones. Kris did get a measurement initially, but with the Lumagen DTM I agreed to trading some nits for better black levels and I can't remember what we finished up at. It's a much better picture overall - especially dark scenes.
Really glad you are enjoying Craig. Image looked fantastic while I was there! The RS4500 continues to be one of the best projectors out there.
Just catching up on this thread.
I've been loving my RS4500. I'm still astounded how good this can look. Since I own a Lumagen I recently checked out the dynamic tone mapping and it worked very well. However, I primarily use my Lumagen as a video switcher as I use a HTPC with madVR (for scaling and HDR tone mapping).
One thing that really upped my game is using the BT2020 filter. It makes what I feel is a significant difference (color saturation, depth) that was never possible before dynamic tone mapping - which can compensate for the light loss of the filter (along with easing up on the manual iris). I have a decent sized screen and used to have to use high laser to get a satisfying image but for the past year I only use mid laser and the image I get is just incredible. The shadow detail is so much better now - it's as if I upgraded to a new projector with higher contrast.
Yes, Alita looks amazing. There's still a lot of movies that I haven't seen yet - I have lots to look forward to!
In the past week I saw two great looking ones: Sully & The Greatest Showman. Very impressive on our projector!